WEBVTT 00:00:07.719 --> 00:00:11.820 In the year 1202, a young Giovanni Bernardone, 00:00:12.019 --> 00:00:14.900 who we would come to know as St. Francis of Assisi, 00:00:15.140 --> 00:00:18.280 was captured in a conflict between Assisi and 00:00:18.280 --> 00:00:22.000 Perugia and held as a prisoner of war for about 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:26.059 a year. The conditions for Francis would have 00:00:26.059 --> 00:00:30.960 been harsh. He was probably held in a dark, cramped, 00:00:31.039 --> 00:00:34.780 unsanitary cell with inadequate food and water 00:00:34.780 --> 00:00:39.140 for months on end. The physical and psychological 00:00:39.140 --> 00:00:43.740 strain he would have suffered is absolutely unfathomable. 00:00:43.920 --> 00:00:47.679 He was around 21 years old with ambitions to 00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:50.320 become a knight, a dream that of course suddenly 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:53.759 came crashing down. And we learn from sources 00:00:53.759 --> 00:00:58.179 that he became severely ill during this imprisonment. 00:00:58.939 --> 00:01:02.280 This horrific experience as a prisoner of war 00:01:02.280 --> 00:01:07.459 forever changed Francis. Many theorize this brokenness 00:01:07.459 --> 00:01:09.700 is what made way for his spiritual transformation. 00:01:10.319 --> 00:01:13.799 And Francis, though often portrayed as a romantic 00:01:13.799 --> 00:01:17.500 or mystic who was always experiencing the beauty 00:01:17.500 --> 00:01:21.000 and goodness of God, he likely ventured throughout 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:24.000 his life suffering from what we would now call 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:29.159 PTSD, post -traumatic stress disorder. The darkness 00:01:29.159 --> 00:01:32.200 and brokenness Francis experienced as a prisoner 00:01:32.200 --> 00:01:35.769 of war accompanied him. most likely, probably 00:01:35.769 --> 00:01:40.329 until his dying day. And yet, Francis undoubtedly 00:01:40.329 --> 00:01:43.709 became a wounded healer, to borrow the great 00:01:43.709 --> 00:01:47.569 phrase from Henry Nowen's wonderful book. Francis's 00:01:47.569 --> 00:01:50.769 journey might lead each of us to ask some questions. 00:01:51.370 --> 00:01:56.069 What is the brokenness that I carry? Is there 00:01:56.069 --> 00:01:59.549 trauma, perhaps, that my body, heart, and mind 00:01:59.549 --> 00:02:03.540 holds? How can I continue to move toward healing 00:02:03.540 --> 00:02:07.680 and wholeness, even while carrying these things 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:10.439 that are difficult to understand? And lastly, 00:02:10.659 --> 00:02:15.300 how can I ultimately use my story to become a 00:02:15.300 --> 00:02:17.939 wounded healer for others, just like Francis? 00:02:18.620 --> 00:02:22.340 Today's guest is Dr. Richard Patterson, a clinical 00:02:22.340 --> 00:02:25.020 psychologist and trauma therapist practicing 00:02:25.020 --> 00:02:28.509 in El Paso, Texas. Two of the primary groups 00:02:28.509 --> 00:02:30.750 he has worked with in his career as a therapist 00:02:30.750 --> 00:02:34.569 are combat veterans and victims of clergy abuse. 00:02:35.289 --> 00:02:38.430 Dr. Patterson has spent much of his adult life 00:02:38.430 --> 00:02:41.550 on a quest to find a bridge between psychology 00:02:41.550 --> 00:02:45.210 and spiritual studies. He has shared that journey 00:02:45.210 --> 00:02:48.409 through four books and numerous articles exploring 00:02:48.409 --> 00:02:51.550 the intersection between psychology and spirituality. 00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:55.159 He is a regular contributor to St. Anthony Messenger, 00:02:55.400 --> 00:02:58.259 who has a new piece in our July -August issue 00:02:58.259 --> 00:03:02.180 titled Turn to the Beatitudes. I have linked 00:03:02.180 --> 00:03:05.080 to all of this in the show notes of this episode. 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:09.659 Forewarning, we delve into some heavy topics 00:03:09.659 --> 00:03:14.259 this conversation. Our recommendation is to please 00:03:14.259 --> 00:03:17.340 find a professional therapist you can trust to 00:03:17.340 --> 00:03:20.360 work through trauma or anything that may rise 00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:24.229 up as you listen. to this conversation. And due 00:03:24.229 --> 00:03:27.550 to the heaviness of the material, I have not 00:03:27.550 --> 00:03:30.729 provided reflection segments this episode and 00:03:30.729 --> 00:03:33.009 feel that that should be left to a professional. 00:03:33.590 --> 00:03:39.310 So without further ado, here is Dr. Richard Patterson. 00:03:42.270 --> 00:03:45.210 Dr. Richard Patterson, welcome to the Off the 00:03:45.210 --> 00:03:47.770 Page podcast. Thank you. Thank you. It's great 00:03:47.770 --> 00:03:50.759 to be here. Yeah, we really appreciate you being 00:03:50.759 --> 00:03:54.419 here, and you're a wonderful contributor to St. 00:03:54.500 --> 00:03:57.139 Anthony Messenger as well. So I know our readers 00:03:57.139 --> 00:03:59.979 are grateful for the wisdom that you share with 00:03:59.979 --> 00:04:03.740 us each year and your really wonderful stories 00:04:03.740 --> 00:04:06.419 that have come out in our magazine. So I'd like 00:04:06.419 --> 00:04:09.319 to begin. We're going to get into some heavy 00:04:09.319 --> 00:04:11.520 things today. We're going to talk about trauma. 00:04:11.719 --> 00:04:15.490 We're going to talk about grief, healing. Can 00:04:15.490 --> 00:04:18.550 you begin by telling listeners a little bit about 00:04:18.550 --> 00:04:21.189 your background and what made you want to become 00:04:21.189 --> 00:04:27.670 a clinical psychologist? Sure, sure. I started 00:04:27.670 --> 00:04:32.870 out really in grade school. I was planning to 00:04:32.870 --> 00:04:38.610 go into the seminary. And really up until I—it 00:04:38.610 --> 00:04:40.610 was the summer before, the summer right after 00:04:40.610 --> 00:04:44.579 I graduated from high school. I changed my mind. 00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:47.279 And in terms of looking back at that, some of 00:04:47.279 --> 00:04:49.259 the stuff that's come up and the things that 00:04:49.259 --> 00:04:51.199 we'll cover, I think were factors in that. But 00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:54.759 we can come back to that. But anyway, I decided, 00:04:54.959 --> 00:04:56.879 no, I'm not going to go into the seminary. But 00:04:56.879 --> 00:04:59.480 I wanted to be helpful in some way. I wanted 00:04:59.480 --> 00:05:02.379 to be of service. So first I thought I would 00:05:02.379 --> 00:05:05.720 be a social worker. But then to be honest with 00:05:05.720 --> 00:05:07.319 you, I mean, my motives weren't all that noble 00:05:07.319 --> 00:05:10.240 because I found out social workers didn't make 00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:14.250 a lot of money. And like I say, I wanted to earn 00:05:14.250 --> 00:05:17.129 a decent living as well. So I thought, well, 00:05:17.370 --> 00:05:20.209 okay, maybe I should go to medical school. But 00:05:20.209 --> 00:05:24.850 I realized that that was not a good idea. I really 00:05:24.850 --> 00:05:29.069 hated school, to be quite honest with you, and 00:05:29.069 --> 00:05:32.709 had had problems in school forever with behavior 00:05:32.709 --> 00:05:35.389 and so on and so forth. So I thought that's not 00:05:35.389 --> 00:05:37.449 practical. I lacked the self -discipline to go 00:05:37.449 --> 00:05:41.160 to medical school. So I thought, okay, let's 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:47.319 try psychology. And it kind of proceeded from 00:05:47.319 --> 00:05:50.500 there. You know, I finished my undergraduate 00:05:50.500 --> 00:05:54.060 degree, went off to graduate school, almost slunk 00:05:54.060 --> 00:05:57.939 down to graduate school. But they kept me around. 00:05:58.100 --> 00:06:02.319 And I think all of that ultimately meant that 00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:05.459 I was doing what the good Lord wanted me to be 00:06:05.459 --> 00:06:09.220 doing. It just wasn't the smoothest trajectory 00:06:09.220 --> 00:06:13.240 for me to get there. So I did that. I did my 00:06:13.240 --> 00:06:16.899 internship in South Carolina, and then I owed 00:06:16.899 --> 00:06:21.160 four years to the United States Army. And so 00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:24.439 we went from South Carolina, ended up here in 00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:28.560 El Paso, where I served for four years, and then 00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:32.139 got out and opened my practice, and here I am 00:06:32.139 --> 00:06:35.550 quite a few years later. I think it was what 00:06:35.550 --> 00:06:40.220 I was intended to do. Yeah, you mentioned the 00:06:40.220 --> 00:06:42.939 Army, and interestingly, we're recording this 00:06:42.939 --> 00:06:46.579 on, this is June 27th, which is National PTSD 00:06:46.579 --> 00:06:50.819 Awareness Day. Two things show up often in your 00:06:50.819 --> 00:06:53.540 writing at St. Anthony Messenger, and that is 00:06:53.540 --> 00:06:57.360 your work with victims of clergy abuse, and then 00:06:57.360 --> 00:07:01.500 as well as combat veterans. Can you dive into 00:07:01.500 --> 00:07:04.259 your work with these two demographics? You can 00:07:04.259 --> 00:07:07.500 start wherever you want. Sure. Sure. Well, let's 00:07:07.500 --> 00:07:10.240 start with the clergy abuse issue because that's 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:14.300 been a more complicated kind of journey for me, 00:07:14.339 --> 00:07:18.740 I think. Officially, I got into treating victims 00:07:18.740 --> 00:07:23.839 of clergy abuse in the late 1980s, in which at 00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:26.439 that point, I mean, it was not being talked about. 00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:29.699 But a young man came to me and he wanted assistance. 00:07:29.860 --> 00:07:33.620 He was suing the diocese, okay, for them. doing 00:07:33.620 --> 00:07:38.399 what they did. And he had been abused by a priest 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:42.459 named Father David Holly. Now, that's open information 00:07:42.459 --> 00:07:47.199 because he became notorious. And in fact, when 00:07:47.199 --> 00:07:50.639 I saw the movie Spotlight, his name is mentioned 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:52.100 in it. And my goodness, that was like a punch 00:07:52.100 --> 00:07:55.939 in the stomach because I knew one of this man's 00:07:55.939 --> 00:08:00.120 victims, just incredibly. And so that exposed 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:03.920 me to that. That was an eye -opener. OK, but 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:06.439 in many ways it wasn't because I'll just share 00:08:06.439 --> 00:08:10.819 with you very briefly. Back when I was 16 years 00:08:10.819 --> 00:08:13.319 old with this seminary that I told you about 00:08:13.319 --> 00:08:15.420 that are the religious order I was thinking of 00:08:15.420 --> 00:08:20.120 joining, I went to visit their seminary. And 00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:22.379 they had me room with a seminarian who was maybe 00:08:22.379 --> 00:08:25.300 in his 20s. And during the middle of the night, 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:31.920 the guy tried to molest me. OK, and. The reality 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:35.000 is I was a pretty aggressive person back then. 00:08:35.299 --> 00:08:38.919 So I yelled at him and I cursed at him. And he 00:08:38.919 --> 00:08:40.620 backed off. I think I scared him and he backed 00:08:40.620 --> 00:08:43.500 off and left me alone. And at the time, I never 00:08:43.500 --> 00:08:45.820 really thought too much more about it. I don't 00:08:45.820 --> 00:08:49.340 believe I was traumatized by it. But obviously, 00:08:49.399 --> 00:08:52.679 I've never forgotten. So when I began dealing 00:08:52.679 --> 00:08:55.919 with victims of clergy abuse, that rang a bell. 00:08:56.139 --> 00:09:01.440 Okay. Okay. Yeah. I wasn't nearly as traumatized 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:03.159 as the way some of the people were that I dealt 00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:05.759 with. Anyway, so I dealt with this young man, 00:09:05.960 --> 00:09:10.059 read some of the initial reporting that was coming 00:09:10.059 --> 00:09:14.080 out. And what became apparent was that this Father 00:09:14.080 --> 00:09:17.740 Holly, he had been up there in the Boston diocese, 00:09:17.740 --> 00:09:20.460 as is portrayed in the movie. And he got into 00:09:20.460 --> 00:09:22.559 a lot of trouble there. And apparently what they 00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:24.710 did was they shipped him down here. You know, 00:09:24.750 --> 00:09:27.389 poor town, ignorant people on the border there, 00:09:27.590 --> 00:09:31.669 what'll they know? Which made me angry. So that 00:09:31.669 --> 00:09:34.950 also exposed me to the aspect of cover -up. Because 00:09:34.950 --> 00:09:37.929 obviously, whoever was on the receiving end here 00:09:37.929 --> 00:09:41.230 in El Paso knew that this guy was a problem. 00:09:41.870 --> 00:09:44.070 And he got, they did the same thing with him 00:09:44.070 --> 00:09:46.070 while he was in El Paso. They moved him around 00:09:46.070 --> 00:09:50.379 whenever he would do his thing. So anyway, I 00:09:50.379 --> 00:09:52.779 met this young man, and because of that, the 00:09:52.779 --> 00:09:55.860 word got out that I was willing to treat victims 00:09:55.860 --> 00:09:59.039 of clergy abuse. And so over the next several 00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:03.559 years, I saw a number of people, not all males, 00:10:03.679 --> 00:10:07.019 mostly males, but not all males, who as children 00:10:07.019 --> 00:10:10.419 primarily had been sexually abused by Catholic 00:10:10.419 --> 00:10:17.840 priests. That – my status with that, my status 00:10:17.840 --> 00:10:21.080 with treating those people, my status with demanding 00:10:21.080 --> 00:10:25.259 that the diocese do something about it did not 00:10:25.259 --> 00:10:27.100 turn out well in terms of my relationship with 00:10:27.100 --> 00:10:30.500 the diocese. For a time, I was labeled as an 00:10:30.500 --> 00:10:33.940 enemy of the church because I was supporting 00:10:33.940 --> 00:10:37.879 these people in whatever they needed to do. That's 00:10:37.879 --> 00:10:40.139 not the case now. I seem to have a decent relationship 00:10:40.139 --> 00:10:43.830 with the current. hierarchy here in El Paso, 00:10:43.950 --> 00:10:46.009 but for many years it wasn't because of that. 00:10:46.649 --> 00:10:49.009 And, you know, I have no regrets about doing 00:10:49.009 --> 00:10:53.090 what I needed to do. Absolutely. Yeah. What was 00:10:53.090 --> 00:10:55.850 the, hit pause here for a second. Sure. What 00:10:55.850 --> 00:10:59.529 was the time period that you had this client 00:10:59.529 --> 00:11:03.409 and then also when you were kind of at odds, 00:11:03.590 --> 00:11:06.970 not kind of, but certainly at odds with the diocese 00:11:06.970 --> 00:11:09.370 there because of the work you were doing in clergy 00:11:09.370 --> 00:11:13.019 abuse and psychology? That was in the late 80s, 00:11:13.019 --> 00:11:18.899 and it really went into the 2000s in terms of 00:11:18.899 --> 00:11:23.120 both my treating victims of clergy abuse and 00:11:23.120 --> 00:11:26.940 being at odds with the diocese because of that. 00:11:28.700 --> 00:11:33.259 One of the things that happened was that I was 00:11:33.259 --> 00:11:35.899 interviewed on television. They called up, and 00:11:35.899 --> 00:11:38.539 this was in the early 2000s when the stuff in 00:11:38.539 --> 00:11:40.360 Boston was really getting a lot of publicity. 00:11:41.019 --> 00:11:44.500 And so this young reporter called me and said, 00:11:44.620 --> 00:11:46.980 I understand you treat victims of clergy abuse, 00:11:47.139 --> 00:11:49.879 which made me uneasy because that was all confidential. 00:11:50.539 --> 00:11:54.340 But she wanted to come and interview me. Well, 00:11:54.559 --> 00:11:57.500 about two years prior to that, I had written 00:11:57.500 --> 00:12:00.159 an article that came out in America magazine 00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:03.799 called My Church is Dying, which is what I felt 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:06.399 at the time. I felt my church was in trouble. 00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:09.740 And so I wrote this article, which generated— 00:12:09.740 --> 00:12:11.980 Because you were Catholic throughout your whole 00:12:11.980 --> 00:12:15.220 life, correct? Yes, still am. I still find myself 00:12:15.220 --> 00:12:19.259 as Catholic. Different than when I was a kid, 00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:22.559 for sure. In any case, I wrote this article. 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:24.419 So at the end of the interview, she was asking 00:12:24.419 --> 00:12:26.679 me, and what do you see as the future of this? 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:29.259 And I said in the interview, well, I have some 00:12:29.259 --> 00:12:32.519 fear that my church is dying. And so that created 00:12:32.519 --> 00:12:37.909 quite an uproar. The following Sunday, we went 00:12:37.909 --> 00:12:41.210 to Mass, and obviously all the priests had been 00:12:41.210 --> 00:12:43.570 directed to preach about this television interview 00:12:43.570 --> 00:12:46.210 thing because the preacher was talking—he didn't 00:12:46.210 --> 00:12:47.830 say anything to me, but he was talking about 00:12:47.830 --> 00:12:49.850 it, and he said, and we shouldn't feel like the 00:12:49.850 --> 00:12:52.389 church is dying, at which point my wife leans 00:12:52.389 --> 00:12:54.210 over and kind of gives me an elbow on the side 00:12:54.210 --> 00:12:59.990 there because she knew what it was all about. 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:04.500 So anyway, that soured my relationship some more 00:13:04.500 --> 00:13:07.799 with them. But at the moment, it seems to be 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:10.299 good. I know that the current bishop, he's a 00:13:10.299 --> 00:13:13.639 fan of St. Anthony Messenger because I've shared 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:16.019 with him some of the stuff I've written. And 00:13:16.019 --> 00:13:19.559 so that seems to—but it obviously had an impact 00:13:19.559 --> 00:13:22.279 on me in terms of my Catholic journey. All of 00:13:22.279 --> 00:13:24.850 that did. Yeah, that's what I was going to ask 00:13:24.850 --> 00:13:28.330 you about, because I would imagine that as you 00:13:28.330 --> 00:13:31.370 are coming alongside these people, mostly men, 00:13:31.470 --> 00:13:36.950 like you said, who suffered horrific sexual abuse 00:13:36.950 --> 00:13:42.700 at the hands of clergy, that This would do something 00:13:42.700 --> 00:13:45.679 to your own heart, your own mind, and then also 00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:48.799 your own faith in relationship with a church 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:51.340 in which you had always belonged. So can you 00:13:51.340 --> 00:13:53.580 dive a little bit into that journey for you? 00:13:53.860 --> 00:13:56.679 Sure. I mean, it obviously had an impact on me. 00:13:56.759 --> 00:14:00.899 In many ways, I was a little more bothered by 00:14:00.899 --> 00:14:04.000 the cover -ups because I could understand that 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:07.440 some of these people, they were troubled. Maybe 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:10.279 they were mentally ill. Some of them clearly 00:14:10.279 --> 00:14:13.840 were pedophiles, and that's a very intractable 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:16.740 kind of mental illness. And so that didn't excuse 00:14:16.740 --> 00:14:19.179 anything, but at least it made it understandable. 00:14:19.299 --> 00:14:20.879 But what I had trouble understanding were the 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:24.629 cover -ups. in terms of people being moved around 00:14:24.629 --> 00:14:29.129 and so on and so forth. And even blacklisting 00:14:29.129 --> 00:14:32.009 you, correct? Absolutely. That is an attempt 00:14:32.009 --> 00:14:34.090 to add a cover -up, and you're in the middle 00:14:34.090 --> 00:14:36.590 of it doing healing work that the Church needs 00:14:36.590 --> 00:14:39.549 to do. I think a lot of listeners would find 00:14:39.549 --> 00:14:44.029 that bizarre. It was disturbing at some level. 00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:47.059 You know, I mean, some of my friends, they thought, 00:14:47.100 --> 00:14:49.220 yeah, good for you. And, you know, speak up and 00:14:49.220 --> 00:14:51.600 blah, blah, blah. Okay, I appreciated that. But, 00:14:51.620 --> 00:14:54.840 you know, at a deeper level, it hurt because 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:58.299 my Catholicism was and still is important to 00:14:58.299 --> 00:15:05.000 me. So, obviously, and to be honest with you, 00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:07.320 Stephen, I've been a questioner all my life. 00:15:07.940 --> 00:15:10.039 So, I mean, I've had doubts that I've struggled 00:15:10.039 --> 00:15:11.899 with. Some of my writing has been about that 00:15:11.899 --> 00:15:15.159 kind of stuff and so on. So this really fed into 00:15:15.159 --> 00:15:16.659 that in the sense of, well, maybe I'm in the 00:15:16.659 --> 00:15:19.259 wrong place. Maybe I should find a different 00:15:19.259 --> 00:15:23.960 path or whatever. And so in the late 90s, to 00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:25.919 be honest with you, I took a sabbatical from 00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:28.620 the Catholic Church. Stopped going to Mass, stopped 00:15:28.620 --> 00:15:31.940 going to any kind of sacraments, stopped having 00:15:31.940 --> 00:15:34.299 any dealings other than with a handful of clients 00:15:34.299 --> 00:15:38.830 that I had. Took that time. I did a lot of reading. 00:15:39.350 --> 00:15:43.269 I studied. That was when I read C .S. Lewis's 00:15:43.269 --> 00:15:46.210 Mere Christianity for the first time. Some of 00:15:46.210 --> 00:15:48.509 Thomas Merton's writings, Henry Nouwen, who had 00:15:48.509 --> 00:15:52.129 already had a major impact on my life. So I went 00:15:52.129 --> 00:15:54.889 back to some of the people that I knew and Thich 00:15:54.889 --> 00:15:58.389 Nhat Hanh, other points of view, other religions 00:15:58.389 --> 00:16:00.230 and so on. And it was a very, very productive 00:16:00.230 --> 00:16:06.610 time for me. And what was funny was during that 00:16:06.610 --> 00:16:08.549 time, my mother -in -law was coming to stay with 00:16:08.549 --> 00:16:11.690 us for a few months. She was a lovely person. 00:16:11.710 --> 00:16:14.549 I loved her to death. But she was very, very 00:16:14.549 --> 00:16:18.370 solid Catholic. She was into the charismatic 00:16:18.370 --> 00:16:21.769 movement. And so when I was telling my wife, 00:16:21.870 --> 00:16:24.269 I said, when your mom comes, out of respect for 00:16:24.269 --> 00:16:26.590 her, I feel like I need to tell her that I'm 00:16:26.590 --> 00:16:29.149 not going to church right now. So bless her heart, 00:16:29.190 --> 00:16:31.549 she shows up. And I said to her, Betty, I need 00:16:31.549 --> 00:16:34.690 to tell you that. I'm not going to church right 00:16:34.690 --> 00:16:38.110 now. I'm taking a break. And she said, oh, I 00:16:38.110 --> 00:16:41.289 can't imagine my life without Jesus. And I said, 00:16:41.330 --> 00:16:43.649 well, my problem is not with Jesus. My problem 00:16:43.649 --> 00:16:49.129 is with the Catholic Church. She said, oh, okay. 00:16:49.269 --> 00:16:52.710 Bless her heart. Yep. So it was a productive 00:16:52.710 --> 00:16:55.129 time and it caused me to reflect on, okay, what 00:16:55.129 --> 00:16:58.009 if anything is still meaningful to me with my 00:16:58.009 --> 00:17:04.450 Catholicism? Okay. That's when I saw I missed 00:17:04.450 --> 00:17:08.630 the sacraments. I missed Eucharist. I missed 00:17:08.630 --> 00:17:13.869 the mystical element about Catholicism. And so 00:17:13.869 --> 00:17:17.730 I realized it was time for me to go back. Some 00:17:17.730 --> 00:17:19.970 different kind of thinking, some different things 00:17:19.970 --> 00:17:24.569 that I emphasized and looked for. But that was 00:17:24.569 --> 00:17:27.970 a productive time for me, just to stand back. 00:17:28.910 --> 00:17:35.210 Yeah, were you... Were you ever angry or bitter? 00:17:35.390 --> 00:17:38.569 I just cannot fathom the conversations you were 00:17:38.569 --> 00:17:41.789 having at that time with your clients and then 00:17:41.789 --> 00:17:46.869 reconciling that with this church that is also 00:17:46.869 --> 00:17:50.329 pushing you out. Right. It was, well, see, that's 00:17:50.329 --> 00:17:52.569 why I had to accept that the church itself, the 00:17:52.569 --> 00:17:55.789 Catholic church itself, was very flawed, very 00:17:55.789 --> 00:18:01.680 human. in my opinion, no different than any other 00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:05.140 particular type of church. And so, I mean, part 00:18:05.140 --> 00:18:07.079 of when I went back was that, well, I have to 00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:08.799 be willing to accept this. I don't particularly 00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:13.359 like it, but I have to accept that this church 00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:16.180 is flawed. And the manner in which they have 00:18:16.180 --> 00:18:19.400 dealt with the clergy abuse issue is very flawed. 00:18:20.599 --> 00:18:22.579 But there was still enough there in terms of 00:18:22.579 --> 00:18:27.240 the essence of my Catholicism that has kept me 00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:31.950 going. Yeah. Yeah, what did you, I'd like to 00:18:31.950 --> 00:18:35.650 get into your work with combat veterans as well. 00:18:35.869 --> 00:18:42.890 However, what did you learn from these men mostly 00:18:42.890 --> 00:18:47.309 who you were counseling? What struck you about 00:18:47.309 --> 00:18:51.049 them and what impact did that have on not only 00:18:51.049 --> 00:18:53.329 your trajectory in life, but also your own heart? 00:18:53.950 --> 00:18:56.890 Well, I mean, these people to me were all courageous. 00:18:56.950 --> 00:19:00.640 They were heroes in my book. A lot of them stopped 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:02.480 having anything to do with the Catholic Church, 00:19:02.680 --> 00:19:07.599 understandably so. One man found some healing 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:10.819 through art, did some artwork, and that really 00:19:10.819 --> 00:19:13.460 helped him heal. He had a substance issue. He 00:19:13.460 --> 00:19:16.240 managed to overcome that. And I actually heard 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:18.099 from him a few months ago, and he's become a 00:19:18.099 --> 00:19:21.299 counselor. So I think what some of these people 00:19:21.299 --> 00:19:25.400 did was they became wounded healers. You know, 00:19:25.420 --> 00:19:27.900 they found— A great phrase from Henry Nouwen, 00:19:27.980 --> 00:19:30.400 yeah. That's changed my life, but we can talk 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:34.980 about that another time. But, you know, he—these 00:19:34.980 --> 00:19:37.859 people, they just—they faced it. They didn't 00:19:37.859 --> 00:19:39.960 give up on God particularly. Some of them just 00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:42.000 gave up on the Catholic Church. And that was 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:45.380 enlightening to me because they all were deeply 00:19:45.380 --> 00:19:48.500 wounded spiritually, beyond psychological wounds. 00:19:48.619 --> 00:19:52.319 They were just so—sense of betrayal, anger with 00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:56.869 God. and so on and so forth. And they taught 00:19:56.869 --> 00:19:59.309 me a lot about what I would call spiritual courage, 00:19:59.490 --> 00:20:02.509 being able to face spiritual pain and try to 00:20:02.509 --> 00:20:05.769 heal from that, much less the psychological part 00:20:05.769 --> 00:20:09.470 of the trauma. Yeah, you used a great phrase 00:20:09.470 --> 00:20:13.730 there from a favorite author of both of ours, 00:20:13.750 --> 00:20:15.730 it sounds like, Henry Nouwen, Wounded Healer. 00:20:15.950 --> 00:20:18.990 What does that mean to you, particularly with 00:20:18.990 --> 00:20:21.690 your, not only your own story, your own journey, 00:20:21.730 --> 00:20:26.039 but your vocation? Well, I think I read Henry 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:28.140 Nowen's book, The Wounded Healer, for the first 00:20:28.140 --> 00:20:33.079 time in the early 80s. OK. I thought it was good 00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:35.680 and I thought, oh, I like that and so on. And 00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:40.099 then and what for me was a God moment. I reread 00:20:40.099 --> 00:20:42.839 it a couple of years later and it had a tremendous 00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:48.420 impact on me. And his book, more than anything, 00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:50.900 helped me face my own issues with addiction, 00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:53.700 to be quite honest with you. It was because of 00:20:53.700 --> 00:20:56.019 that book because I would ask myself, well, in 00:20:56.019 --> 00:20:58.420 what ways am I wounded? And there were things 00:20:58.420 --> 00:21:00.579 from the past and so on. But ultimately, I said, 00:21:00.740 --> 00:21:04.839 you know, you drink too much. You have an issue 00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:06.420 there. You have an alcohol issue. And it was 00:21:06.420 --> 00:21:10.299 Henry Allen's book that helped me find a place 00:21:10.299 --> 00:21:15.480 within myself to go get some help. So he's been 00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:19.210 very significant. And bless his heart, I have 00:21:19.210 --> 00:21:21.990 a book that he signed for me by himself because 00:21:21.990 --> 00:21:24.849 I sent one of my earlier books to him. And bless 00:21:24.849 --> 00:21:26.789 his heart, he wrote back to me a lovely letter, 00:21:26.910 --> 00:21:30.009 gave me one of his books that was inscribed. 00:21:30.049 --> 00:21:33.230 And, oh, it's just, you know, it has meant a 00:21:33.230 --> 00:21:35.789 lot to me. So he's certainly one of my spiritual 00:21:35.789 --> 00:21:40.940 mentors. That's a little off track, I know. And 00:21:40.940 --> 00:21:42.960 that has been an organizing principle for me 00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:45.799 with a lot of the work that I've done, both personally 00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:48.480 and then in terms of the people that I deal with. 00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:52.200 Absolutely. Facing your wounds, try to grow from 00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:54.460 them, try to learn something from them. And then 00:21:54.460 --> 00:21:57.079 if you can be of service to other people, even 00:21:57.079 --> 00:22:02.740 better. Yeah. And then what about this other 00:22:02.740 --> 00:22:05.980 primary demographic? I hate that term. It sounds 00:22:05.980 --> 00:22:09.759 so dry. But, you know, when it comes to combat 00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:13.759 veterans and your work with them, dive into your 00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:17.660 work with this group and then their impact on 00:22:17.660 --> 00:22:21.779 your own life as well. Well, first of all, I 00:22:21.779 --> 00:22:24.500 did not like being a soldier. I wasn't a very 00:22:24.500 --> 00:22:26.759 good soldier. I had an attitude at that time. 00:22:27.809 --> 00:22:30.609 You know, I was a child of the 60s and had done 00:22:30.609 --> 00:22:32.430 some of the marches and so on, but here I was 00:22:32.430 --> 00:22:34.849 in the military. Didn't have a real good attitude 00:22:34.849 --> 00:22:37.450 about it. Was real glad when I got out, put in 00:22:37.450 --> 00:22:40.690 my four years and got out. And so flash forward, 00:22:40.990 --> 00:22:48.910 I start receiving referrals with, I mean, I had 00:22:48.910 --> 00:22:51.369 dealt with veterans all along, but really began 00:22:51.369 --> 00:22:56.910 doing evaluations and heavy duty treatment. It 00:22:56.910 --> 00:22:58.829 was kind of one of God's little jokes because 00:22:58.829 --> 00:23:02.609 I would have my discharge hanging on my wall 00:23:02.609 --> 00:23:04.269 along with my degrees and all that other good 00:23:04.269 --> 00:23:07.470 stuff. And it turned out this mattered to these 00:23:07.470 --> 00:23:10.869 folks that would come in. I was a veteran. I 00:23:10.869 --> 00:23:13.369 mean, there was one young guy that came in, sweet 00:23:13.369 --> 00:23:15.950 young man. He was really struggling, struggling 00:23:15.950 --> 00:23:17.910 to talk about what he had been through in Iraq. 00:23:18.849 --> 00:23:20.930 And he looked up and he said, oh, Doc, you're 00:23:20.930 --> 00:23:23.849 a veteran. And as always, I said, yes, I am, 00:23:23.890 --> 00:23:26.539 but I'm not a combat veteran. And he just looked 00:23:26.539 --> 00:23:27.880 at me and says, you don't know what a relief 00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:29.819 it is to be talking to another veteran. And he 00:23:29.819 --> 00:23:32.380 burst into tears because it was such a relief 00:23:32.380 --> 00:23:37.619 for him. I don't fully understand that, but the 00:23:37.619 --> 00:23:40.799 irony is as much as I disliked being a soldier, 00:23:40.859 --> 00:23:44.559 it's turned out to be very meaningful for a lot 00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:48.720 of the folks that come to see me that I'm a veteran. 00:23:49.160 --> 00:23:51.460 Like one man, one of the nicest moments, I was 00:23:51.460 --> 00:23:53.319 dealing with a fellow who was a Vietnam veteran. 00:23:55.040 --> 00:23:58.440 And we had finished our interview. I was doing 00:23:58.440 --> 00:24:00.039 an evaluation and we had finished our interview 00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:02.559 and we stood up and he looked up and he saw my 00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:04.339 discharge. He said, oh, Doc, you're a veteran. 00:24:05.140 --> 00:24:07.240 And I said, yeah. I said, but I'm not a combat 00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:09.460 veteran. And he says, doesn't matter. You're 00:24:09.460 --> 00:24:11.039 a brother. And he comes over and gives me a big 00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:15.440 bear hug. For listeners, what would you like 00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:18.519 them to understand about these two groups of 00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:22.319 people? Well, I would want them to understand 00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:27.319 that. They feel like they don't fit in, for one 00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:31.839 thing. Both groups. I mean, the first group, 00:24:31.900 --> 00:24:34.640 the clergy abuse people, they have a lot of trouble 00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:36.859 finding any kind of spiritual home. And, of course, 00:24:36.900 --> 00:24:45.420 they carry a lot of shame and blame. I mean, 00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:47.079 a lot of them, even though they were kids, they 00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:50.619 blamed themselves and so on. And really the same 00:24:50.619 --> 00:24:53.039 thing with the veterans. Okay, a lot of veterans 00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:55.160 that I've dealt with, they carry blame. They 00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:59.319 carry shame. They will tell me stories about 00:24:59.319 --> 00:25:04.240 changing an assignment with another soldier and 00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:06.519 then having that soldier get killed in their 00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:13.619 place and so on. And it's not that they want 00:25:13.619 --> 00:25:16.460 special treatment. It's kind of like one time 00:25:16.460 --> 00:25:19.980 one veteran told me. You know, some of us don't 00:25:19.980 --> 00:25:21.799 like being told, thank you for your service, 00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:25.500 because it kind of puts us over here, makes us 00:25:25.500 --> 00:25:28.220 like separate. You did that. That was your service. 00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:35.059 And we're over here and we're fine. So I don't 00:25:35.059 --> 00:25:40.559 do that as much. And so really both groups, they 00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:42.500 just feel like they don't belong. Obviously, 00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:44.380 the first group, the clergy abuse group, they 00:25:44.380 --> 00:25:46.779 have a lot of trouble finding any kind of spiritual 00:25:46.779 --> 00:25:51.839 home. The second group, the veterans, just have 00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:55.000 trouble fitting in. They come back from horrific 00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:59.519 kind of events. And even within their own families, 00:25:59.700 --> 00:26:01.700 they'll feel different. And so they feel like 00:26:01.700 --> 00:26:06.279 they don't fit in. And so to feel some acceptance, 00:26:06.599 --> 00:26:16.240 to feel some loving attention makes a great deal 00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:21.279 of difference to these folks. And the one thing 00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:26.039 that neither group wants is pity, which I think 00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:27.980 is why some of them react to this thank you for 00:26:27.980 --> 00:26:30.400 your service thing. Some of them interpret that 00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:36.279 as pity, and they don't want that. Yeah. And 00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:40.180 really, the one common theme with trauma victims 00:26:40.180 --> 00:26:44.779 in general is that they do and they don't want 00:26:44.779 --> 00:26:49.700 to tell their story. You know, they don't want 00:26:49.700 --> 00:26:54.200 to tell it because they fear judgment. They do 00:26:54.200 --> 00:26:57.980 want to tell it just to get it out, just to get 00:26:57.980 --> 00:27:00.880 it out, to put it out and try to be done with 00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:04.759 it. And so it makes a great deal of difference 00:27:04.759 --> 00:27:07.619 for both groups to feel like they're dealing 00:27:07.619 --> 00:27:09.519 with somebody, whether it's a therapist or not, 00:27:09.740 --> 00:27:14.240 who doesn't judge them and more than anything 00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:18.519 is willing to just listen. And not tell them 00:27:18.519 --> 00:27:24.000 what they need to do to fix it all. Yeah, I imagine 00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:28.880 that some listeners are hearing what you're saying 00:27:28.880 --> 00:27:35.180 and maybe thinking to themselves, well, maybe 00:27:35.180 --> 00:27:39.119 I didn't suffer from clergy abuse or maybe I 00:27:39.119 --> 00:27:42.460 was never a veteran or however the language you're 00:27:42.460 --> 00:27:48.079 speaking. the words you're using to name this 00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:53.859 chasm that we can call it trauma, maybe really 00:27:53.859 --> 00:27:57.220 resonating with some. So can we just go to kind 00:27:57.220 --> 00:28:01.539 of ground level here? As a clinical psychologist, 00:28:01.720 --> 00:28:08.960 what is trauma? And perhaps what is a pathway? 00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:13.220 And I know that, and we should say, here at the 00:28:13.220 --> 00:28:17.559 start that the best thing is to find a therapist 00:28:17.559 --> 00:28:21.299 or counselor who you trust. Correct. Um, however, 00:28:21.539 --> 00:28:25.400 I know at least for me, it was books. Like you 00:28:25.400 --> 00:28:28.160 mentioned the wounded healer by Henry Nowen or 00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:32.380 podcasts. It was, it, it was this media that 00:28:32.380 --> 00:28:36.140 I was consuming that allowed me to feel less 00:28:36.140 --> 00:28:39.460 alone, um, during these different aspects of 00:28:39.460 --> 00:28:43.049 my journey. So that being said, What is trauma? 00:28:43.730 --> 00:28:47.230 Well, when we talk about trauma, you need to 00:28:47.230 --> 00:28:50.470 keep two things in mind because there's the official 00:28:50.470 --> 00:28:54.970 diagnostic definition of trauma, which really 00:28:54.970 --> 00:28:59.650 has to do with exposure to death or near death 00:28:59.650 --> 00:29:03.490 or life -threatening kinds of situations to include 00:29:03.490 --> 00:29:06.829 sexual assault and so on. That's kind of the 00:29:06.829 --> 00:29:11.869 official definition. course of human events, 00:29:11.970 --> 00:29:13.450 there are other things that have a traumatic 00:29:13.450 --> 00:29:21.150 impact. Loss of a job, death of a parent, divorce, 00:29:21.630 --> 00:29:25.069 and so on and so forth. So there's a lot of other 00:29:25.069 --> 00:29:27.769 things that have a traumatic impact that maybe 00:29:27.769 --> 00:29:31.730 don't qualify for a diagnosis of post -traumatic 00:29:31.730 --> 00:29:34.230 stress disorder, but nonetheless have a devastating 00:29:34.230 --> 00:29:38.630 impact on us. And it's far more common than we 00:29:38.630 --> 00:29:43.410 realize. It's far more common, in part because, 00:29:43.569 --> 00:29:46.849 you know, we all have a tendency to kind of minimize 00:29:46.849 --> 00:29:49.690 things, say, well, it wasn't that bad. It wasn't 00:29:49.690 --> 00:29:51.309 that bad. Yeah, I almost got killed in a car 00:29:51.309 --> 00:29:54.309 accident, but it wasn't that bad. Or, yeah, my 00:29:54.309 --> 00:29:56.089 father would beat me up when I was a kid, but 00:29:56.089 --> 00:30:00.250 it wasn't that bad. And so, you know, we have 00:30:00.250 --> 00:30:04.450 a tendency to kind of minimize things, even though 00:30:04.450 --> 00:30:06.769 they're working on us, even though they're showing 00:30:06.769 --> 00:30:14.319 up in irritability or... or even nightmares and 00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:19.480 so on and so forth. So it's just important to 00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:21.059 keep in mind because sometimes people will think, 00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:23.640 well, you know, my father never tried to kill 00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:25.559 me. Yeah, he beat me, but he never tried to kill 00:30:25.559 --> 00:30:27.119 me. I never felt like he was trying to kill me. 00:30:28.059 --> 00:30:31.059 Yeah, but it still was a trauma. It might not 00:30:31.059 --> 00:30:33.539 be this official diagnostic trauma, but it had 00:30:33.539 --> 00:30:38.359 that impact on you. So any kind of life -changing 00:30:38.359 --> 00:30:41.180 event. has the potential to have a traumatic 00:30:41.180 --> 00:30:46.980 impact. Yeah, it's a rupture, it sounds like. 00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:51.640 It is a rupture in your life in a way that drastically 00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:56.880 changes everything on some level. And a lot of 00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:00.700 people will do their best to, I mean, I do believe 00:31:00.700 --> 00:31:02.619 I've met some really resilient people who've 00:31:02.619 --> 00:31:04.400 been through some awful things and just managed 00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:07.420 to keep going forward. I've seen that a lot in 00:31:07.420 --> 00:31:12.940 my work. That's part of what kept me going. And 00:31:12.940 --> 00:31:20.759 so that's very, very common. But with a lot of 00:31:20.759 --> 00:31:25.940 people, like in my work, it may not be the reason 00:31:25.940 --> 00:31:28.980 that they came to somebody like me. But if we 00:31:28.980 --> 00:31:31.240 just dig around a little bit, sure enough, for 00:31:31.240 --> 00:31:33.619 a lot of us, there's trauma in our background. 00:31:34.779 --> 00:31:39.359 And yeah, indeed, there's no... correct way to 00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:44.839 deal with that yeah yeah I like what you said 00:31:44.839 --> 00:31:48.880 earlier about this kind of architecture that 00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:50.880 has played out in your own life of becoming a 00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:55.380 wounded healer where for you it began with really 00:31:55.380 --> 00:32:00.200 confronting hey, I have an addiction, and I need 00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:04.519 to deal with that. And then even just these different 00:32:04.519 --> 00:32:07.759 elements of your story, the fact that you were 00:32:07.759 --> 00:32:10.839 in the Army for four years, the fact that you 00:32:10.839 --> 00:32:14.940 did have a clergy member in seminary try to molest 00:32:14.940 --> 00:32:18.519 you. I mean, all of these different aspects of 00:32:18.519 --> 00:32:22.220 your story, it's... It's very interesting that 00:32:22.220 --> 00:32:24.440 now you're using them to be a wounded healer 00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:27.559 for others. So I really like that trajectory, 00:32:28.059 --> 00:32:31.880 Dr. Patterson, of, hey, what does it look like 00:32:31.880 --> 00:32:34.299 for each of us to become wounded healers on some 00:32:34.299 --> 00:32:37.359 level, even if we're not a clinical psychologist? 00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:42.039 Right, exactly. But for me, my thinking is that 00:32:42.039 --> 00:32:47.279 much of that begins with confronting. It could 00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:50.960 be trauma. It can be addiction. It can be that 00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:54.420 thing in your life that needs to be acknowledged 00:32:54.420 --> 00:32:58.039 and named and to move through. So what does it 00:32:58.039 --> 00:33:03.059 look like to move through trauma or these different 00:33:03.059 --> 00:33:07.220 aspects of brokenness that we're naming? Well, 00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:11.559 I think one of the things that when people are 00:33:11.559 --> 00:33:13.240 trying to heal from trauma, one of the things 00:33:13.240 --> 00:33:17.079 that is hard for them to accept is you're not 00:33:17.079 --> 00:33:19.220 going to forget this stuff. You know, I've had 00:33:19.220 --> 00:33:21.099 people come in and ask me, can you help me forget 00:33:21.099 --> 00:33:23.059 what happened in my childhood or what happened 00:33:23.059 --> 00:33:26.140 in Iraq or Afghanistan or what happened with 00:33:26.140 --> 00:33:27.819 that priest or whatever. I've had people ask 00:33:27.819 --> 00:33:31.039 me that and the answer is no. No, how could you? 00:33:31.099 --> 00:33:35.420 How could we forget those kind of events? And 00:33:35.420 --> 00:33:37.400 so the process of healing, whether it's with 00:33:37.400 --> 00:33:40.779 therapy or anything else, really involves reclaiming 00:33:40.779 --> 00:33:45.440 power from an event that has happened. And of 00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:48.500 course, one of the strong ways that we can reclaim 00:33:48.500 --> 00:33:54.759 power is learning to, how can I take this and 00:33:54.759 --> 00:33:58.519 be of assistance to somebody else? You know, 00:33:58.519 --> 00:34:00.359 the wounded healer image, it's the cornerstone 00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:03.240 of 12 -step programs, okay? It's the cornerstone 00:34:03.240 --> 00:34:07.119 of that. We see that with veteran support groups. 00:34:07.220 --> 00:34:09.440 I mean, veterans who are frustrated with the 00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:11.480 VA and so on, they're turning to help one another 00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:15.429 out. And again, it's that image of, of Wounded 00:34:15.429 --> 00:34:19.389 Helo. Even in the whole clergy abuse issue, I 00:34:19.389 --> 00:34:23.030 mean, the SNAP group that was developed up in 00:34:23.030 --> 00:34:26.610 Boston as a support group for victims of clergy 00:34:26.610 --> 00:34:30.090 abuse, again, it's saying, okay, let me take 00:34:30.090 --> 00:34:32.650 what has happened to me, but let me get some 00:34:32.650 --> 00:34:36.050 of the power back so that I can talk about it 00:34:36.050 --> 00:34:38.349 and then I can be of service to other people. 00:34:39.309 --> 00:34:42.929 Yeah, that's what's... That's what is so complex 00:34:42.929 --> 00:34:47.710 to me and nuanced about this is that on one level, 00:34:47.829 --> 00:34:51.989 a trauma always goes with you, which sounds very 00:34:51.989 --> 00:34:55.590 daunting. It's in a sense, you're almost working 00:34:55.590 --> 00:34:57.369 through it throughout the rest of your life. 00:34:57.849 --> 00:35:03.030 And then on another level, in the midst of that. 00:35:03.670 --> 00:35:06.929 you have to reclaim your power hundreds, thousands 00:35:06.929 --> 00:35:10.309 of times probably as this trauma is going with 00:35:10.309 --> 00:35:12.550 you. Do you know what I'm saying? Yes, absolutely. 00:35:12.650 --> 00:35:14.750 I'm not saying those two things are at odds, 00:35:14.909 --> 00:35:19.050 but it's certainly complex. Well, and it has 00:35:19.050 --> 00:35:22.510 to do with not letting trauma define who I am. 00:35:23.800 --> 00:35:25.880 The fact that these things happened to me, the 00:35:25.880 --> 00:35:28.639 fact that I saw and did some things in combat, 00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:30.860 the fact that this priest molested me, the fact 00:35:30.860 --> 00:35:35.880 that I was sexually abused as a child, that doesn't 00:35:35.880 --> 00:35:41.659 have to define who I am unless I let it. I'm 00:35:41.659 --> 00:35:44.159 damaged goods. I've had people say that to me. 00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:48.599 I'm damaged goods. And so that's part of what 00:35:48.599 --> 00:35:53.079 has to heal is that. I'm not letting this yes. 00:35:53.179 --> 00:35:54.940 This is an important part of my life, but I'm 00:35:54.940 --> 00:35:58.199 not gonna let it define who I am more than that 00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:02.500 and that's That's possible. It's not an easy 00:36:02.500 --> 00:36:06.119 road by any means But I've seen plenty of people 00:36:06.119 --> 00:36:10.760 do that What defines who you are? What defines 00:36:10.760 --> 00:36:20.570 who I am? Well, I think my story My story and 00:36:20.570 --> 00:36:24.230 sharing pieces of my story over the years. I 00:36:24.230 --> 00:36:26.789 don't think any of us can sum it up. Well, this 00:36:26.789 --> 00:36:31.730 is who I am. But like pieces of my story that 00:36:31.730 --> 00:36:33.610 I've shared with you, that gives you some insight 00:36:33.610 --> 00:36:40.170 into who I am rather than just labeling it. And 00:36:40.170 --> 00:36:45.309 that's why it's so important for people to have 00:36:45.309 --> 00:36:48.010 some kind of opportunity to tell their story. 00:36:48.940 --> 00:36:51.719 whether it involves trauma or not, because it 00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:54.320 just helps them understand who they are a little 00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:58.420 bit better. If that makes sense. Absolutely. 00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:03.639 Yeah, I know for me, one of the things I at least 00:37:03.639 --> 00:37:08.880 try to come back to whenever I'm wrestling through... 00:37:09.900 --> 00:37:12.780 I tend to have these dark spells every like four 00:37:12.780 --> 00:37:15.599 or five weeks. And maybe that's stuff from the 00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:19.500 past. Maybe that's, you know, just my brain chemistry. 00:37:19.579 --> 00:37:22.199 I have no idea. But one of the things I'm always 00:37:22.199 --> 00:37:26.500 trying to remember, whether, you know, it's guilt, 00:37:26.579 --> 00:37:28.820 whether it's shame, whether it's regret, whether 00:37:28.820 --> 00:37:31.699 it's future tripping, whatever it may be, when 00:37:31.699 --> 00:37:34.079 I slip into these dark states, it goes back to 00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:37.460 Henry now. And for me is you're the beloved. 00:37:38.269 --> 00:37:43.210 And because you're the beloved, your story is 00:37:43.210 --> 00:37:47.969 worth naming on a personal level and then maybe 00:37:47.969 --> 00:37:52.570 sharing to help and heal others. And sometimes 00:37:52.570 --> 00:37:55.650 it, you know, like when I lost my mom really 00:37:55.650 --> 00:37:58.750 suddenly a few years ago, remembering that I 00:37:58.750 --> 00:38:03.710 was the beloved, it did not solve anything. It 00:38:03.710 --> 00:38:07.570 did not explain. how a perfectly healthy person 00:38:07.570 --> 00:38:10.070 can just, her heart can stop in the middle of 00:38:10.070 --> 00:38:17.389 the night. However, it reminded me of a God that 00:38:17.389 --> 00:38:21.030 enters more deeply into my suffering without 00:38:21.030 --> 00:38:25.070 the need to explain it. Because we are the beloved. 00:38:25.329 --> 00:38:28.429 Do you have anything to add there? I think it's 00:38:28.429 --> 00:38:30.570 an interesting conversation we're having about 00:38:30.570 --> 00:38:34.730 identity and defining who you are, but then also 00:38:34.730 --> 00:38:38.230 the complexity of these traumatic things that 00:38:38.230 --> 00:38:41.070 mark us throughout the rest of our lives. Well, 00:38:42.070 --> 00:38:44.610 you know, I mean, what comes to mind with what 00:38:44.610 --> 00:38:49.710 you're saying is that obviously how I deal with 00:38:49.710 --> 00:38:54.239 trauma. is going to touch on my beliefs about 00:38:54.239 --> 00:38:58.179 God. Okay? I mean, a lot of the people that I've 00:38:58.179 --> 00:39:02.840 dealt with are very angry with God. And obviously 00:39:02.840 --> 00:39:06.000 there was people I've dealt with who, like one 00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:07.980 man I dealt with, he said, you know, how can 00:39:07.980 --> 00:39:10.699 I believe in a God when I saw my best buddy burn 00:39:10.699 --> 00:39:14.440 up in a vehicle? How can I believe in a God that 00:39:14.440 --> 00:39:19.000 would permit that? Okay? which is for many people 00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:23.239 that have suffered not just trauma, but like 00:39:23.239 --> 00:39:25.480 the death of a loved one suddenly, unexpectedly. 00:39:27.420 --> 00:39:32.699 It pulls us into what is God part of this in 00:39:32.699 --> 00:39:40.699 any way? And if so, how so? Okay. You know, I'll 00:39:40.699 --> 00:39:43.760 share this story with you. And maybe this is 00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:47.230 off track. That's all right. That's your problem 00:39:47.230 --> 00:39:51.730 to figure out. The joy of this podcast is the 00:39:51.730 --> 00:39:55.389 freedom to go off track. Okay. Well, this just 00:39:55.389 --> 00:39:58.409 illustrates the spiritual challenge of all of 00:39:58.409 --> 00:40:01.010 this to me. The other thing that I did in the 00:40:01.010 --> 00:40:03.829 late 80s and into the 2000s was I treated AIDS 00:40:03.829 --> 00:40:08.750 patients, which was extraordinary, an extraordinary 00:40:08.750 --> 00:40:12.630 experience. And one time this boy was brought 00:40:12.630 --> 00:40:15.179 in. He was 12 years old. Okay. And he had AIDS. 00:40:15.260 --> 00:40:17.159 This was before they really made progress with 00:40:17.159 --> 00:40:20.400 the medication and so on. And so he had AIDS 00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:23.320 and he was very anxious, which I thought was 00:40:23.320 --> 00:40:26.119 pretty understandable. So I talked with him and 00:40:26.119 --> 00:40:28.000 his mother for a little while. And then I asked 00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:30.420 his mom to step out so that I could talk to the 00:40:30.420 --> 00:40:33.159 boy alone for a bit. And I said to the boy, you 00:40:33.159 --> 00:40:35.780 know, and he was, he knew a lot about his illness. 00:40:35.980 --> 00:40:38.340 He had read about it. And I said, I'm really 00:40:38.340 --> 00:40:40.820 impressed. You've educated yourself quite a bit. 00:40:40.860 --> 00:40:44.340 I said. Do you have any questions that I could 00:40:44.340 --> 00:40:46.699 answer for you? And this boy lived in a faith 00:40:46.699 --> 00:40:49.159 -based family. So I said, do you have any questions? 00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:51.400 He said, yeah, I have a question. And I said, 00:40:51.480 --> 00:40:54.079 fire away. I said, why did God do this to me? 00:40:54.820 --> 00:40:56.659 Why did God do this to me? He said, I didn't 00:40:56.659 --> 00:40:59.559 do drugs. I haven't had sex. Why did God do this 00:40:59.559 --> 00:41:05.820 to me? And that to me was a stunning question. 00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:11.809 And I didn't have a simple answer for him. And 00:41:11.809 --> 00:41:13.889 I tended, you know, ever since then, I've tended 00:41:13.889 --> 00:41:16.190 to be suspicious when people have simple answers. 00:41:17.489 --> 00:41:19.610 You know, I dealt with a veteran recently, and 00:41:19.610 --> 00:41:21.409 he was in Walter Reed Hospital after multiple 00:41:21.409 --> 00:41:25.570 explosions. And we got into some of these spiritual 00:41:25.570 --> 00:41:28.269 issues of the trauma, and he said, you know, 00:41:28.349 --> 00:41:31.010 Doc, I had somebody come to me. I don't know 00:41:31.010 --> 00:41:33.050 whether they were a chaplain or not, but they 00:41:33.050 --> 00:41:35.690 came to me a while ago, and they told me, well, 00:41:35.849 --> 00:41:39.050 this has happened to you in Iraq. for a reason 00:41:39.050 --> 00:41:41.409 god wants you to learn something well he got 00:41:41.409 --> 00:41:43.550 furious he cussed the person out and kicked him 00:41:43.550 --> 00:41:47.909 out of his room okay and so you know that's a 00:41:47.909 --> 00:41:50.670 question that i've i've struggled with personally 00:41:50.670 --> 00:41:53.710 having grown up in a family that lost children 00:41:53.710 --> 00:41:58.849 and um i think anybody who has been through trauma 00:41:58.849 --> 00:42:05.269 struggles with um so that You know, it kind of 00:42:05.269 --> 00:42:07.329 challenges us, especially if we do have a spiritual 00:42:07.329 --> 00:42:10.190 foundation of, well, what do we think about that? 00:42:11.530 --> 00:42:14.690 You know, it's the big why question. And I think 00:42:14.690 --> 00:42:16.530 anybody who's gone through any kind of trauma 00:42:16.530 --> 00:42:19.969 that is open to a spiritual foundation is going 00:42:19.969 --> 00:42:22.909 to encounter that question, why? Why has this 00:42:22.909 --> 00:42:25.369 happened to me? Or why did this happen to, why 00:42:25.369 --> 00:42:27.849 did my mother get cancer? And so on and so forth. 00:42:27.989 --> 00:42:32.679 Why did my sisters die? And I at least don't 00:42:32.679 --> 00:42:35.960 have an easy answer to that question. How do 00:42:35.960 --> 00:42:38.860 you respond when someone asks that question and 00:42:38.860 --> 00:42:42.260 wants to go the spiritual route with you? Well, 00:42:42.420 --> 00:42:47.320 what was helpful to me, quite frankly, was Harold 00:42:47.320 --> 00:42:49.460 Kushner's books, When Bad Things Happen to Good 00:42:49.460 --> 00:42:52.320 People. And of course, in that book, his position, 00:42:52.440 --> 00:42:58.239 which is not necessarily... It is what it is, 00:42:58.260 --> 00:43:00.820 but his position is maybe God doesn't do everything 00:43:00.820 --> 00:43:02.880 that happens to us. Maybe some bad things just 00:43:02.880 --> 00:43:08.679 happen. And maybe what matters is knowing that 00:43:08.679 --> 00:43:11.900 God may not have made this happen to you, but 00:43:11.900 --> 00:43:15.539 God is walking with you. God is walking with 00:43:15.539 --> 00:43:17.300 you through this. God is with you in your pain, 00:43:17.480 --> 00:43:25.119 which is why I told that boy. And he didn't question 00:43:25.119 --> 00:43:30.420 it. And he didn't get mad. I'd like to tell you 00:43:30.420 --> 00:43:33.099 it had a dramatic impact, but I don't know, because 00:43:33.099 --> 00:43:37.219 that boy died maybe two months later. But obviously 00:43:37.219 --> 00:43:39.659 his question stayed with me. And he's not the 00:43:39.659 --> 00:43:42.519 only one, but just such an innocent child asking 00:43:42.519 --> 00:43:46.219 that question. And yeah, I mean, it's come up 00:43:46.219 --> 00:43:48.800 many, many times. I think anybody that does any 00:43:48.800 --> 00:43:51.420 kind of counseling or ministry or whatever is 00:43:51.420 --> 00:43:54.179 going to run into that. Why? Why has this happened? 00:43:54.889 --> 00:43:58.869 um yeah i like what you said how you're skeptical 00:43:58.869 --> 00:44:04.809 of people who claim to have answers and i that 00:44:04.809 --> 00:44:10.510 really resonates i mean trauma for me it's very 00:44:10.510 --> 00:44:13.829 interesting and i don't know if this makes sense 00:44:13.829 --> 00:44:19.369 but it's one of the closest things i've found 00:44:19.369 --> 00:44:25.139 to what mysticism means And what I mean by that 00:44:25.139 --> 00:44:32.159 is love as well, trauma and love, both of those 00:44:32.159 --> 00:44:35.300 things, complete opposites in some regard. But 00:44:35.300 --> 00:44:38.940 what I mean by that is, and I think someone like 00:44:38.940 --> 00:44:41.679 St. John of the Cross hits on this with the dark 00:44:41.679 --> 00:44:45.940 night of the soul, but it's as if you're trying 00:44:45.940 --> 00:44:50.400 to find language for this part of your story. 00:44:50.909 --> 00:44:54.349 and just like mysticism just like describing 00:44:54.349 --> 00:44:58.130 the divine it's all it's like you're always falling 00:44:58.130 --> 00:45:02.949 short of fully understanding it fully wrapping 00:45:02.949 --> 00:45:07.889 your heart or mind around it and yet as you do 00:45:07.889 --> 00:45:11.929 that by daring to name it you're also kind of 00:45:11.929 --> 00:45:15.809 moving through it does that make sense yes absolutely 00:45:15.809 --> 00:45:20.889 well this this might sound odd to you but One 00:45:20.889 --> 00:45:25.309 of the things that, not just the trauma that 00:45:25.309 --> 00:45:27.570 I deal with, but the trauma I've been through 00:45:27.570 --> 00:45:33.590 myself, the irony is, did any of that make me 00:45:33.590 --> 00:45:37.349 angry at God? You bet. You bet. But the irony 00:45:37.349 --> 00:45:40.889 is that sometimes those moments when I'm shouting 00:45:40.889 --> 00:45:44.869 at God, when I'm shaking my fist at God, some 00:45:44.869 --> 00:45:47.070 of those moments I have felt very close to God. 00:45:47.630 --> 00:45:51.750 Isn't that ironic? But it's made it real. This 00:45:51.750 --> 00:45:56.170 is an important part of my life. And rather than 00:45:56.170 --> 00:46:03.010 just saying, oh, well, you know, I'm going to 00:46:03.010 --> 00:46:06.130 fight back. And I've told people that, you know, 00:46:06.130 --> 00:46:07.889 in terms of the God of my understanding, I need 00:46:07.889 --> 00:46:10.630 a God that I can argue with. And I know some 00:46:10.630 --> 00:46:12.650 people have had a big problem with that, but 00:46:12.650 --> 00:46:15.590 that's okay. It's what works for me. It's defensible. 00:46:16.190 --> 00:46:18.250 I just finished reading the book of Job again. 00:46:18.289 --> 00:46:22.519 I love that book. I was reading some of the Psalms. 00:46:22.519 --> 00:46:25.260 Some of the Psalms are very angry. And so to 00:46:25.260 --> 00:46:28.219 me, it's all there. It's in the book. You know, 00:46:28.280 --> 00:46:32.699 it's just being okay with that. Yeah. Yeah, I 00:46:32.699 --> 00:46:35.139 remember reading, I'm sure you've heard of this 00:46:35.139 --> 00:46:39.159 book, but it was called Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, 00:46:39.159 --> 00:46:42.780 I think. And that's what it was called. And a 00:46:42.780 --> 00:46:46.619 therapist at an evangelical church gave it to 00:46:46.619 --> 00:46:54.329 me. And I found it so freeing to realize how 00:46:54.329 --> 00:46:58.949 emotional Jesus was and how human Jesus was. 00:46:59.050 --> 00:47:03.900 This person who really leaned in to... Every 00:47:03.900 --> 00:47:08.280 emotion, even the darker ones, these things that 00:47:08.280 --> 00:47:10.739 we may consider dark, you know, flipping over 00:47:10.739 --> 00:47:13.920 the tables in the temple. Yeah, I love that story. 00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:16.800 It's one of my favorite stories. Yeah, yeah. 00:47:16.900 --> 00:47:23.019 I found that I think as men sometimes we tend 00:47:23.019 --> 00:47:28.420 to downplay or suppress feelings of sadness, 00:47:28.539 --> 00:47:33.019 feelings of darkness. And we just kind of push 00:47:33.019 --> 00:47:36.300 it down. And I just found that very freeing that 00:47:36.300 --> 00:47:42.820 this Jesus I follow felt it all emotionally. 00:47:43.400 --> 00:47:47.659 Right. Well, some years ago, I also read a book 00:47:47.659 --> 00:47:50.000 by an author named Pierre Wolfe, and it had the 00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:54.559 provocative title of May I Hate God. And it was 00:47:54.559 --> 00:47:57.340 a lovely, lovely book. And he made the point 00:47:57.340 --> 00:48:00.860 in there about, well, we define God as a loving 00:48:00.860 --> 00:48:04.349 father. And what loving father, if his child 00:48:04.349 --> 00:48:06.550 were mad at him, wouldn't want to hear about 00:48:06.550 --> 00:48:09.710 it? He might not agree with it, might not agree 00:48:09.710 --> 00:48:11.889 with the assessment, but tell me. You're obviously 00:48:11.889 --> 00:48:14.050 angry. Come on. Let's get it. Let's hear it. 00:48:15.050 --> 00:48:20.010 And that was very helpful to me. Yeah. Yeah, 00:48:20.090 --> 00:48:24.469 we've hit on it some already, but I am curious. 00:48:25.969 --> 00:48:30.230 For those listening who have a Christian background 00:48:30.230 --> 00:48:34.530 or who want to use tools from the Christian tradition 00:48:34.530 --> 00:48:37.550 to help them find healing, to help them move 00:48:37.550 --> 00:48:40.909 through the trauma that they've suffered, what 00:48:40.909 --> 00:48:44.630 in the Christian tradition, or the Franciscan 00:48:44.630 --> 00:48:47.929 tradition for that matter, can help us on that 00:48:47.929 --> 00:48:51.309 journey toward becoming wounded healers? Well, 00:48:51.349 --> 00:48:58.789 I think that... I think that prayer helps in 00:48:58.789 --> 00:49:01.469 whatever way the person is comfortable. I won't 00:49:01.469 --> 00:49:03.650 necessarily tell somebody this is how you need 00:49:03.650 --> 00:49:05.969 to pray because they need to find their own way 00:49:05.969 --> 00:49:09.329 there. With all the various trauma victims that 00:49:09.329 --> 00:49:11.150 I've dealt with, some of them have tremendous 00:49:11.150 --> 00:49:17.090 faith. And so not to be willing to turn to that 00:49:17.090 --> 00:49:20.610 as a resource. even if it involves doubts and 00:49:20.610 --> 00:49:23.750 anger and so on and so forth. And then I think 00:49:23.750 --> 00:49:25.570 the other thing that our Christian tradition 00:49:25.570 --> 00:49:30.349 offers to us, well, two things really. One is 00:49:30.349 --> 00:49:33.969 forgiveness. We have a strong tradition of forgiveness. 00:49:34.170 --> 00:49:38.650 Jesus emphasized that. Jesus lived that. And 00:49:38.650 --> 00:49:41.969 that's forgiving others and forgiving ourselves, 00:49:42.230 --> 00:49:46.920 which in many ways is even more difficult. But 00:49:46.920 --> 00:49:48.820 I think our Christian tradition, our Catholic 00:49:48.820 --> 00:49:52.860 tradition can help with that. Just knowing that 00:49:52.860 --> 00:49:54.219 it's there, that's one of the things that we're 00:49:54.219 --> 00:49:57.539 called to. And then that we're called to learn 00:49:57.539 --> 00:50:01.840 how to love ourselves. And all this judgment 00:50:01.840 --> 00:50:04.179 about, I'm stupid, that was a stupid thing for 00:50:04.179 --> 00:50:07.179 me to do. And so it's not loving. I mean, I've 00:50:07.179 --> 00:50:09.119 dealt with people that have said those kind of 00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:12.579 things to themselves. I remember one time, actually, 00:50:12.619 --> 00:50:14.039 I was dealing with a person who was a priest. 00:50:16.199 --> 00:50:21.579 He was having some trouble with sexual issues, 00:50:21.739 --> 00:50:28.260 okay? And I thought, okay. And he was just judging 00:50:28.260 --> 00:50:31.780 himself up and down and left and right, and I'm 00:50:31.780 --> 00:50:34.460 terrible and I'm a hypocrite. I said, well, tell 00:50:34.460 --> 00:50:36.059 me this, Father. When somebody comes to you, 00:50:36.239 --> 00:50:38.539 a young teenage boy comes to you or a married 00:50:38.539 --> 00:50:40.719 man or whatever and confesses to that same sin, 00:50:40.880 --> 00:50:43.829 is this what you say to them? Well, you're disgusting. 00:50:43.929 --> 00:50:46.230 Shame on you. And he said, oh, heavens, I would 00:50:46.230 --> 00:50:49.889 never say anything like that. I thought, well, 00:50:49.929 --> 00:50:52.570 then what's the deal? So I think, you know, that 00:50:52.570 --> 00:50:57.349 whole emphasis on facing our sins, if you will, 00:50:57.489 --> 00:51:00.530 or our failings or whatever, and learning to 00:51:00.530 --> 00:51:02.630 forgive ourselves the way we would forgive somebody 00:51:02.630 --> 00:51:05.809 else, I think is something that our Christian 00:51:05.809 --> 00:51:09.550 tradition is very, very strong on, as well as 00:51:09.550 --> 00:51:13.789 learning to love ourselves. Yeah, I remember 00:51:13.789 --> 00:51:17.190 a great quote from Life of the Beloved by Henry 00:51:17.190 --> 00:51:19.510 Nouwen. He says something along the lines of, 00:51:19.630 --> 00:51:23.150 self -rejection is the greatest enemy of the 00:51:23.150 --> 00:51:25.949 spiritual life because it contradicts the reality 00:51:25.949 --> 00:51:31.469 that you are the beloved. Why, as a clinical 00:51:31.469 --> 00:51:35.170 psychologist, why are we as humans, not everyone, 00:51:35.349 --> 00:51:40.849 but generally most people I meet are very, very 00:51:40.849 --> 00:51:45.670 hard on themselves. And it's so easy for self 00:51:45.670 --> 00:51:48.630 -rejection to creep up. Why are we like that 00:51:48.630 --> 00:51:51.809 as humans? Well, some people would say, you know, 00:51:51.809 --> 00:51:54.550 without getting into Freudian kind of stuff, 00:51:54.630 --> 00:51:56.329 some people would say, well, it has its roots 00:51:56.329 --> 00:51:59.550 in our childhood, which is true. The psychologist 00:51:59.550 --> 00:52:02.829 Carl Rogers talked about conditions of worth. 00:52:03.849 --> 00:52:06.349 And what he meant by that was that in the normal 00:52:06.349 --> 00:52:09.360 course of raising a child, we'll say, Don't do 00:52:09.360 --> 00:52:11.579 that. That's a dumb thing to do. Don't do that. 00:52:12.219 --> 00:52:14.260 Well, then we'll translate that in our little 00:52:14.260 --> 00:52:20.539 head to I'm dumb. You know, being loved by somebody 00:52:20.539 --> 00:52:23.420 feels conditional. Well, my parents only love 00:52:23.420 --> 00:52:25.500 me when I'm behaving myself. That may not be 00:52:25.500 --> 00:52:29.219 objectively true, but that's how the child kind 00:52:29.219 --> 00:52:34.280 of processes it. So, you know, we move forward 00:52:34.280 --> 00:52:36.820 with that, with these, what Rogers called conditions 00:52:36.820 --> 00:52:39.820 of worth. And it turns into some judgment of 00:52:39.820 --> 00:52:44.900 self. And you're right. I mean, in many ways, 00:52:44.960 --> 00:52:46.559 that's one of the hardest things to help people 00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:50.000 break through is just that self -judgment. But 00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:52.199 what strikes me and what I will ask people is, 00:52:52.260 --> 00:52:56.539 would you say that to somebody else? Arguably, 00:52:56.539 --> 00:52:58.219 it's not. It's stuff that we would never say. 00:52:58.300 --> 00:53:01.699 If I think to myself, yeah, you're stupid, you're 00:53:01.699 --> 00:53:03.719 weak, what's the matter with you? You're worthless. 00:53:03.820 --> 00:53:07.340 Who are you kidding? So you say, well, Patterson, 00:53:07.360 --> 00:53:09.460 do you say that to other people? No. Yeah. Do 00:53:09.460 --> 00:53:11.280 you say that to your children? Do you say that 00:53:11.280 --> 00:53:12.300 to your best friend? No, I never would say that 00:53:12.300 --> 00:53:13.719 to them. Good grief. Do you say that to your 00:53:13.719 --> 00:53:18.039 spouse? No, I never would. But somehow or other. 00:53:18.500 --> 00:53:21.400 And so sometimes it's a question of just – and, 00:53:21.460 --> 00:53:23.739 you know, it's so insidious. Sometimes we don't 00:53:23.739 --> 00:53:26.539 even know it's there until we pay attention to 00:53:26.539 --> 00:53:28.480 it a little bit. It's like I used to say to people, 00:53:28.639 --> 00:53:30.880 you know, you have a little Adolf Hitler on your 00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:33.650 shoulder there. and he's whispering these nasty 00:53:33.650 --> 00:53:35.909 things into your head, but you don't challenge 00:53:35.909 --> 00:53:38.710 them. You know, and that's the other thing that 00:53:38.710 --> 00:53:41.670 comes up. Sometimes I will say to people, suppose 00:53:41.670 --> 00:53:43.190 somebody walked up to you and said, you know, 00:53:43.349 --> 00:53:46.449 you're really stupid, and called you a stupid 00:53:46.449 --> 00:53:49.269 expletive. How would you react to that? Well, 00:53:49.309 --> 00:53:52.090 I'd get mad. I'd say, no, I'm not. I'd say, well, 00:53:52.329 --> 00:53:54.250 how about this thing on your shoulder? How come 00:53:54.250 --> 00:53:57.610 you never fight back with that? Hmm. Right? Wow. 00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:04.000 That's so true. That's so true. So sometimes 00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:06.159 we just have to become aware of it and then challenge 00:54:06.159 --> 00:54:09.300 it a little bit, which is one of the, I know 00:54:09.300 --> 00:54:10.980 this isn't what we're focused on, but it's also 00:54:10.980 --> 00:54:13.320 one of the areas where journal writing can help. 00:54:14.199 --> 00:54:16.840 We'll write down these negative things and challenge 00:54:16.840 --> 00:54:20.019 them. Okay, well, I believe I'm stupid. Well, 00:54:20.159 --> 00:54:21.840 is there any evidence to support that? Well, 00:54:21.880 --> 00:54:25.019 I've done some stupid things, but I have an advanced 00:54:25.019 --> 00:54:29.539 degree. I've written some stuff and so on, so 00:54:29.539 --> 00:54:32.320 I'm obviously not completely stupid. I'm just 00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:38.940 challenging the thought. Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, 00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:43.360 I think these are very helpful, practical tools 00:54:43.360 --> 00:54:47.139 for me and then I hope for people listening as 00:54:47.139 --> 00:54:53.239 well. We mentioned the Christian tradition. St. 00:54:53.699 --> 00:54:57.559 Francis of Assisi himself, and maybe you wrote 00:54:57.559 --> 00:55:02.159 about it, actually, but I've heard several theorize 00:55:02.159 --> 00:55:06.739 that he probably had PTSD. He has to have. Yeah, 00:55:06.780 --> 00:55:09.000 he has to have. Can you go a little bit into 00:55:09.000 --> 00:55:14.659 that and how a reading of his life, perhaps, 00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:19.099 and again, we're not being... We're not being 00:55:19.099 --> 00:55:23.000 prescriptive here. We're not saying this is exactly 00:55:23.000 --> 00:55:25.699 what you have to do to heal. However, I wonder 00:55:25.699 --> 00:55:28.800 if there are some things from his life, going 00:55:28.800 --> 00:55:34.579 back to his own PTSD, that we can glean to take 00:55:34.579 --> 00:55:37.039 with us on our own journeys toward healing. Well, 00:55:37.179 --> 00:55:39.139 I mean, to me, in reading his story, there's 00:55:39.139 --> 00:55:41.360 no doubt that he had to have had PTSD. He was 00:55:41.360 --> 00:55:47.279 a combat veteran. He was a prisoner of war. And 00:55:47.279 --> 00:55:50.639 it's clear in terms of what we piece together 00:55:50.639 --> 00:55:52.420 that when he came back, when he was released 00:55:52.420 --> 00:55:55.300 from his prisoner of war status and he came back 00:55:55.300 --> 00:55:59.280 to his village, he was not the same person. He 00:55:59.280 --> 00:56:01.320 apparently was described as someone who just 00:56:01.320 --> 00:56:04.860 was very joyful and outgoing, maybe too much 00:56:04.860 --> 00:56:07.860 initially, loved to be out in the woods, loved 00:56:07.860 --> 00:56:11.480 to be out in the fields. And all that changed 00:56:11.480 --> 00:56:17.219 when he came back. going back to battle he was 00:56:17.219 --> 00:56:20.179 going back to his life as a soldier when he had 00:56:20.179 --> 00:56:23.360 what 12 steppers would call a spiritual awakening 00:56:23.360 --> 00:56:28.800 okay and i think obviously at some level he was 00:56:28.800 --> 00:56:32.699 open to that as wounded as he was there was some 00:56:32.699 --> 00:56:36.099 part of him maybe it was just a tiny part that 00:56:36.099 --> 00:56:40.780 in essence was saying you know heal me lord help 00:56:40.780 --> 00:56:44.480 me And so when he was going back to battle the 00:56:44.480 --> 00:56:47.559 second time, he had a spiritual awakening, which 00:56:47.559 --> 00:56:49.880 changed his life completely, changed the direction 00:56:49.880 --> 00:56:53.119 of his life completely. And I think, I mean, 00:56:53.119 --> 00:56:55.639 that's one lesson to take from his story is that 00:56:55.639 --> 00:56:59.239 even in the midst of anger, in the midst of the 00:56:59.239 --> 00:57:01.139 storm, in the midst of darkness, if there's a 00:57:01.139 --> 00:57:05.659 part of us that can at least be open to a spiritual 00:57:05.659 --> 00:57:09.119 awakening, it can make a tremendous difference. 00:57:09.900 --> 00:57:15.280 Yeah, I had never thought until recently about 00:57:15.280 --> 00:57:20.760 the probable reality that Francis had PTSD from 00:57:20.760 --> 00:57:23.719 being a prisoner of war and then being in combat 00:57:23.719 --> 00:57:30.539 as well. And it's very moving to me that this 00:57:30.539 --> 00:57:35.139 was a person who, despite what he had gone through, 00:57:35.599 --> 00:57:38.079 despite what he would go through with his family 00:57:38.079 --> 00:57:40.900 and then his own body, you know, the fact that 00:57:40.900 --> 00:57:43.059 he wrote the canicle of the creatures, like when 00:57:43.059 --> 00:57:46.860 his body was just tormented with illness with, 00:57:46.920 --> 00:57:51.559 I mean, in Francis, I sent someone who just never 00:57:51.559 --> 00:57:57.719 gave up on beauty that, okay, this doesn't make 00:57:57.719 --> 00:58:01.400 sense. I don't know why this happened. However, 00:58:01.559 --> 00:58:05.719 like you said, I look outside and nature is beautiful. 00:58:05.940 --> 00:58:10.519 Yeah. And again, it, it doesn't explain anything. 00:58:10.559 --> 00:58:14.119 It doesn't explain why you go through the things 00:58:14.119 --> 00:58:18.079 you go through. But for me, at least it has done 00:58:18.079 --> 00:58:20.739 something to the mind and to the heart to just, 00:58:20.760 --> 00:58:23.679 you know what, this is a, this is a crappy day, 00:58:23.780 --> 00:58:27.059 but I'm going to give beauty a chance. I'm going 00:58:27.059 --> 00:58:30.400 to give hope. a chance, and not only give it 00:58:30.400 --> 00:58:33.179 a chance, but I'm going to try to open my senses 00:58:33.179 --> 00:58:36.940 and take it in and remind me of what's already 00:58:36.940 --> 00:58:40.920 true. Do you have any thoughts on that? Well, 00:58:41.079 --> 00:58:46.380 to me nowadays, I mean, I've learned that in 00:58:46.380 --> 00:58:50.840 many ways, the places that I find God are not 00:58:50.840 --> 00:58:54.880 necessarily in churches. I mean, some of the 00:58:54.880 --> 00:58:57.239 most spiritual moments that I've had in my life 00:58:57.239 --> 00:59:01.940 have been when I was in nature. One time my wife 00:59:01.940 --> 00:59:06.300 and I were down, and the littlest known national 00:59:06.300 --> 00:59:08.760 park in the world is Big Bend National Park down 00:59:08.760 --> 00:59:11.460 on the southern border of Texas. It's an absolutely 00:59:11.460 --> 00:59:14.440 beautiful place, and my wife and I had hiked 00:59:14.440 --> 00:59:17.179 back into this canyon, which was absolutely wonderful. 00:59:18.859 --> 00:59:21.360 And what was really, it might sound nutty, but 00:59:21.360 --> 00:59:23.059 it was just a beautiful moment for us. We were 00:59:23.059 --> 00:59:26.639 standing in the midst of this canyon and my wife 00:59:26.639 --> 00:59:30.380 said, I feel like singing. And so we stood there 00:59:30.380 --> 00:59:33.219 and we sang Amazing Grace standing in this canyon. 00:59:34.099 --> 00:59:36.000 And as we looked at, she said, look, and she 00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:38.019 looked up above and there were all these hawks 00:59:38.019 --> 00:59:40.980 just circling like they were listening to us, 00:59:41.059 --> 00:59:45.159 you know. And to me, it was a profoundly. spiritual 00:59:45.159 --> 00:59:48.079 moment not just connection with my wife but a 00:59:48.079 --> 00:59:51.000 connection with that place with the birds with 00:59:51.000 --> 00:59:55.539 God and that's an experience that I've had in 00:59:55.539 --> 01:00:00.340 a lot of different non -church settings and I'm 01:00:00.340 --> 01:00:03.599 real grateful for that I'm real grateful for 01:00:03.599 --> 01:00:07.960 that because those have been some of the touchstones 01:00:07.960 --> 01:00:11.460 for me when I have questions when I have doubts 01:00:14.119 --> 01:00:17.119 Those plus my own healing have been my touchstones 01:00:17.119 --> 01:00:21.719 because I know that to be all God -centered. 01:00:22.590 --> 01:00:25.750 Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. It's a beautiful 01:00:25.750 --> 01:00:29.530 story. I do want to be respectful of your time, 01:00:29.730 --> 01:00:34.829 Dr. Patterson. I'm good. I wanted to ask you 01:00:34.829 --> 01:00:38.449 about a recent piece that you had in the St. 01:00:38.489 --> 01:00:42.030 Anthony Messenger, and this beautiful piece, 01:00:42.250 --> 01:00:45.829 and it's based around the Beatitudes. And in 01:00:45.829 --> 01:00:49.590 the context of this conversation, I was wondering... 01:00:50.250 --> 01:00:52.909 If you have any thoughts on how the Beatitudes 01:00:52.909 --> 01:00:58.829 may assist us in healing, in mourning, in grieving, 01:00:59.010 --> 01:01:02.250 in becoming wounded healers as we keep coming 01:01:02.250 --> 01:01:08.250 back to. Right. Well, I think that in terms of 01:01:08.250 --> 01:01:12.070 trauma in particular, I mean, there's blessed 01:01:12.070 --> 01:01:17.289 are they who mourn because I think mourning and 01:01:17.289 --> 01:01:19.630 grief is an integral part of recovery from trauma. 01:01:20.630 --> 01:01:23.269 It's been said, and I agree with it, that a person 01:01:23.269 --> 01:01:28.010 doesn't go through combat without grieving because 01:01:28.010 --> 01:01:30.190 they have lost somebody, they've lost somebody 01:01:30.190 --> 01:01:33.829 that they've known. The people that I dealt with, 01:01:33.869 --> 01:01:36.610 the clergy abuse people, they grieved the loss 01:01:36.610 --> 01:01:40.289 of their faith as they had it, okay, because 01:01:40.289 --> 01:01:42.070 that was part of what some of these people played 01:01:42.070 --> 01:01:46.349 on to get them to do these things. and there 01:01:46.349 --> 01:01:52.090 are all kinds of other situations. Things happen. 01:01:52.550 --> 01:01:55.690 It's the nature of life, and we have to grieve. 01:01:55.710 --> 01:02:00.030 We have to face that grief. But the thing about 01:02:00.030 --> 01:02:03.230 grieving that I would want your listeners to 01:02:03.230 --> 01:02:05.269 know especially is that there's no correct way 01:02:05.269 --> 01:02:08.190 to do it. A lot of people, I mean, Elizabeth 01:02:08.190 --> 01:02:10.269 Kubler -Ross was a wonderful person, and she 01:02:10.269 --> 01:02:12.650 helped a lot of people, but she herself never 01:02:12.650 --> 01:02:16.329 said, I didn't mean those five stages of grief 01:02:16.329 --> 01:02:19.789 to be taken as a literal thing. I was just trying 01:02:19.789 --> 01:02:22.329 to articulate different types of experiences 01:02:22.329 --> 01:02:24.909 because I've had people come in and say, well, 01:02:24.949 --> 01:02:26.730 I don't know that I bargained or I don't know 01:02:26.730 --> 01:02:28.329 that I've been angry and maybe I'm not doing 01:02:28.329 --> 01:02:33.429 this correctly. And, I mean, that's summed up 01:02:33.429 --> 01:02:36.869 for me. There was this wonderful person that 01:02:36.869 --> 01:02:39.590 I dealt with some years ago, beautiful faith 01:02:39.590 --> 01:02:41.409 -based lady, and she had lost her husband of 01:02:41.409 --> 01:02:46.039 50 -odd years. And so she came in and I was asked 01:02:46.039 --> 01:02:47.300 her, well, how are you doing? She said, well, 01:02:47.400 --> 01:02:49.099 she belonged to a small church that had been 01:02:49.099 --> 01:02:52.760 very supportive, very gathered around her, very 01:02:52.760 --> 01:02:55.239 loving. And she said, you know, she really appreciated 01:02:55.239 --> 01:02:57.679 that. But many of them have given me books about 01:02:57.679 --> 01:03:00.559 grief. And then she pointed, she said, I have 01:03:00.559 --> 01:03:03.900 a small stack of them. And she, of course, was 01:03:03.900 --> 01:03:06.219 very compliant. And she said, and I've read them 01:03:06.219 --> 01:03:09.659 all. It was about 15 books on grief. I said, 01:03:09.679 --> 01:03:12.090 what do you think? She said, I'm completely confused. 01:03:13.210 --> 01:03:15.570 She said, one book will tell me to give my husband's 01:03:15.570 --> 01:03:17.929 belongings away right away. Another book will 01:03:17.929 --> 01:03:20.869 tell me keep them as long as I want to. And on 01:03:20.869 --> 01:03:24.989 and on and on. So you know what I did? I gave 01:03:24.989 --> 01:03:32.429 her a book to read. Here's your 16th book. Absolutely. 01:03:32.489 --> 01:03:35.389 But what I gave her was A Grief Observed by C 01:03:35.389 --> 01:03:38.789 .S. Lewis, which was really his journal for the 01:03:38.789 --> 01:03:41.929 first year after he lost his wife. It's a beautiful 01:03:41.929 --> 01:03:45.789 book. There's no easy answers. And at the end 01:03:45.789 --> 01:03:48.710 of the book, it's not like after the year of 01:03:48.710 --> 01:03:50.969 grieving, it's not like, OK, I'm done. I'm fine. 01:03:51.929 --> 01:03:54.210 It's very clear he's going to grieve the loss 01:03:54.210 --> 01:03:56.610 of his wife, Joy, for the rest of his life, okay? 01:03:57.150 --> 01:04:00.190 So I recommended that book to this lady. She 01:04:00.190 --> 01:04:03.170 loved it. She came back a week later and said, 01:04:03.289 --> 01:04:05.610 I love that book. It gave me permission to just 01:04:05.610 --> 01:04:07.309 deal with this the way that I'm dealing with 01:04:07.309 --> 01:04:12.510 it. That's right. So, you know, there's no—we 01:04:12.510 --> 01:04:14.250 have to be aware of it. We have to be open to 01:04:14.250 --> 01:04:17.869 it. I've always said that grief is sneaky. You 01:04:17.869 --> 01:04:21.820 know, I can be thinking I'm doing fine. I'll 01:04:21.820 --> 01:04:24.019 give you a brief example. I had an aunt when 01:04:24.019 --> 01:04:25.659 I was growing up that was an integral part of 01:04:25.659 --> 01:04:31.079 our family. She was a great student of the Civil 01:04:31.079 --> 01:04:35.400 War. And so maybe two or three years ago, I was 01:04:35.400 --> 01:04:37.480 re -watching. I decided I wanted to re -watch 01:04:37.480 --> 01:04:41.219 Ken Burns' series on the Civil War. And I started 01:04:41.219 --> 01:04:43.659 watching that, and I thought, oh, man, Aunt Dorothy 01:04:43.659 --> 01:04:46.460 would have loved this. And I got emotional, okay, 01:04:46.619 --> 01:04:49.179 because it put me in touch with that grief. over 01:04:49.179 --> 01:04:52.639 the loss of someone whom I really loved. And 01:04:52.639 --> 01:04:55.260 so, you know, people will complain about that. 01:04:55.320 --> 01:04:57.139 I thought I was doing fine, but then I heard 01:04:57.139 --> 01:05:00.219 this song and I started weeping. Well, that's 01:05:00.219 --> 01:05:03.300 the nature of grief. It can sneak up on you. 01:05:04.019 --> 01:05:06.199 And so the things about grief that I think are 01:05:06.199 --> 01:05:07.940 helpful to accept is, one, there's no correct 01:05:07.940 --> 01:05:11.579 way to do it, and two, it never really goes away. 01:05:12.760 --> 01:05:15.320 I mean, you lost your mom. I lost my mom 30 years 01:05:15.320 --> 01:05:18.159 ago, okay? Mother's Day is still a tough day. 01:05:19.079 --> 01:05:24.380 Okay, it's still a tough day. Do I feel as deeply 01:05:24.380 --> 01:05:27.539 hurt as the day that I got the call that she 01:05:27.539 --> 01:05:31.619 died or the day of her funeral? No, no. But do 01:05:31.619 --> 01:05:34.760 I still grieve that loss? You bet. You bet I 01:05:34.760 --> 01:05:38.059 do. And I think that's good when people can just 01:05:38.059 --> 01:05:41.980 accept that, that there's no correct way and 01:05:41.980 --> 01:05:46.059 that it never really goes away completely. And 01:05:46.059 --> 01:05:50.500 the fact that I may get... sad about the death 01:05:50.500 --> 01:05:52.420 of my mother 30 years ago. It doesn't mean I've 01:05:52.420 --> 01:05:55.719 not dealt with something. It just means that's 01:05:55.719 --> 01:05:58.579 the nature of grieving. Yeah, and that you're 01:05:58.579 --> 01:06:01.639 human. Yeah, we're human. You're a human being 01:06:01.639 --> 01:06:05.039 who loves, yeah. Yeah, and that's what it is. 01:06:05.199 --> 01:06:07.340 It's, you know, brief is the price tag you pay 01:06:07.340 --> 01:06:10.039 for loving. I remember dealing with a different 01:06:10.039 --> 01:06:13.500 lady who had lost her husband, and she was... 01:06:13.820 --> 01:06:16.300 just really, really in anguish about it. It had 01:06:16.300 --> 01:06:17.980 been a sudden death, and they were very close. 01:06:18.639 --> 01:06:21.039 And I said to her, I said, well, suppose we had 01:06:21.039 --> 01:06:24.059 a time machine, okay? Suppose you could get in 01:06:24.059 --> 01:06:25.980 that time machine and go back to when you first 01:06:25.980 --> 01:06:28.980 met your husband, and instead you turned and 01:06:28.980 --> 01:06:32.179 you walked away. Would you do that? And she just 01:06:32.179 --> 01:06:34.940 laughed and said, I'd never do that, because 01:06:34.940 --> 01:06:36.800 I would have missed out on all those years we 01:06:36.800 --> 01:06:39.239 had together. And I said, yeah, and this is the 01:06:39.239 --> 01:06:43.559 price tag. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we have covered 01:06:43.559 --> 01:06:48.099 a lot of ground, Dr. Patterson. What did we leave 01:06:48.099 --> 01:06:50.400 out? Is there anything else that you wanted to 01:06:50.400 --> 01:06:54.139 hit on? Well, reference PTSD. There is a very, 01:06:54.179 --> 01:06:59.119 very good website. It's called ptsd .va .gov, 01:06:59.159 --> 01:07:02.639 G -O -V. And it's not just for combat veterans. 01:07:02.739 --> 01:07:04.619 It's for anybody that's suffered trauma. And 01:07:04.619 --> 01:07:07.460 it's just got a wealth of good guidance, good 01:07:07.460 --> 01:07:11.670 information. techniques of relaxation training 01:07:11.670 --> 01:07:14.329 and so on. The one thing we didn't get into, 01:07:14.389 --> 01:07:17.449 which I'll cover quickly here, is therapy, okay? 01:07:18.730 --> 01:07:21.849 Does therapy help trauma? Absolutely. There's 01:07:21.849 --> 01:07:24.190 some good trauma therapies out there right now. 01:07:24.670 --> 01:07:29.110 And I think the only things to keep in mind sometimes 01:07:29.110 --> 01:07:31.670 before people get into productive trauma therapy, 01:07:31.730 --> 01:07:34.809 they need to address a substance or alcohol issue. 01:07:35.889 --> 01:07:37.889 because that's how a lot of people cope with 01:07:37.889 --> 01:07:43.349 trauma sometimes, so that's not uncommon. But 01:07:43.349 --> 01:07:45.969 I think that if they're having trouble managing 01:07:45.969 --> 01:07:47.869 the anger, if they're having trouble with nightmares, 01:07:48.190 --> 01:07:51.170 they're having flashbacks, or they're having 01:07:51.170 --> 01:07:54.389 trouble with depression, then yes, it's a good 01:07:54.389 --> 01:07:59.750 thing to reach out and find a counselor and to 01:07:59.750 --> 01:08:01.690 not be afraid to ask questions of a counselor. 01:08:02.340 --> 01:08:04.500 Like, do you have good training and experience 01:08:04.500 --> 01:08:08.400 treating trauma? Because therapists can say, 01:08:08.480 --> 01:08:10.820 yes, I treat trauma, and they may not have a 01:08:10.820 --> 01:08:14.139 whole lot of experience doing that. People owe 01:08:14.139 --> 01:08:16.420 it to themselves to have somebody that knows 01:08:16.420 --> 01:08:20.859 what they're doing. And if they want to have 01:08:20.859 --> 01:08:23.659 a spiritual perspective incorporated, to not 01:08:23.659 --> 01:08:30.380 be afraid about asking about that. To me... I 01:08:30.380 --> 01:08:33.239 would never push any kind of beliefs on anybody. 01:08:34.600 --> 01:08:37.279 But I certainly felt it was appropriate to ask 01:08:37.279 --> 01:08:39.399 them, how are you doing spiritually with all 01:08:39.399 --> 01:08:44.279 this? And some people are drawing on their faith 01:08:44.279 --> 01:08:46.359 to get through it all. And so to have a counselor 01:08:46.359 --> 01:08:52.500 or a therapist who is sensitive to that issue 01:08:52.500 --> 01:08:56.399 can also be helpful. And finally, to not be afraid 01:08:56.399 --> 01:08:59.600 to ask if the therapist is going anywhere. Because 01:08:59.600 --> 01:09:01.439 I know a lot of people that go to places like 01:09:01.439 --> 01:09:05.279 the VA get frustrated because the counselor changes, 01:09:05.479 --> 01:09:08.680 especially when it comes to healing from trauma. 01:09:08.760 --> 01:09:14.100 That's a problem. So towards the end of my private 01:09:14.100 --> 01:09:16.500 practice, people would come in and they would 01:09:16.500 --> 01:09:18.260 see that I had a little bit of snow on the mountaintop 01:09:18.260 --> 01:09:20.359 there and they would ask me, are you planning 01:09:20.359 --> 01:09:23.239 to retire anytime soon? I always thought that 01:09:23.239 --> 01:09:25.460 was a fair question because they didn't want 01:09:25.460 --> 01:09:27.739 to start dealing with something and then have 01:09:27.739 --> 01:09:30.350 to start all over. with somebody else. So that's 01:09:30.350 --> 01:09:37.750 also a fair question. And yes, I think that there 01:09:37.750 --> 01:09:40.649 are good therapies out there that can be helpful. 01:09:41.090 --> 01:09:46.149 And also to be wary of people who, there was 01:09:46.149 --> 01:09:48.149 one other therapist in town who was telling people 01:09:48.149 --> 01:09:53.630 he would cure their trauma in 12 sessions. And 01:09:53.630 --> 01:09:57.350 there's no therapy on earth that can do things 01:09:57.350 --> 01:10:00.210 that quickly. I wish there was. I'd go sign up 01:10:00.210 --> 01:10:03.329 for it. Yeah. But there isn't. So to just be 01:10:03.329 --> 01:10:10.210 aware of people who claim those kind of things. 01:10:11.649 --> 01:10:13.810 And then finally, here's my last piece of advice, 01:10:13.890 --> 01:10:16.489 then I'll let you go, okay? You can keep going 01:10:16.489 --> 01:10:18.649 as long as you want. This is great. I could talk 01:10:18.649 --> 01:10:20.750 to you all day. It has to do with the story. 01:10:20.930 --> 01:10:22.850 And I think this is ultimately—oh, well, you 01:10:22.850 --> 01:10:25.970 had asked me previously about— families and people 01:10:25.970 --> 01:10:28.770 support people and so on and yes that's that's 01:10:28.770 --> 01:10:30.670 important it helps for those people to educate 01:10:30.670 --> 01:10:33.869 themselves about the symptoms of trauma and so 01:10:33.869 --> 01:10:36.770 on for instance it's not uncommon for a trauma 01:10:36.770 --> 01:10:40.489 sufferer to go to a restaurant and need to sit 01:10:40.489 --> 01:10:43.170 with their back to a wall and being able to see 01:10:43.170 --> 01:10:46.289 the exit okay that's okay that's okay there's 01:10:46.289 --> 01:10:48.170 nothing wrong with with them doing that and so 01:10:48.170 --> 01:10:53.329 it does help for families to understand a little 01:10:53.329 --> 01:10:55.210 bit about the trauma that their loved one is 01:10:55.210 --> 01:10:58.329 going through. And then finally, it summed up 01:10:58.329 --> 01:11:01.649 for me with, I've often viewed most of my clients 01:11:01.649 --> 01:11:04.550 as teachers. And I had a wonderful, wonderful 01:11:04.550 --> 01:11:07.789 lesson years ago. This lady came in and she told 01:11:07.789 --> 01:11:09.430 me briefly what her issues were. And this was 01:11:09.430 --> 01:11:11.470 when I was a young therapist. She told me her 01:11:11.470 --> 01:11:13.949 issues briefly, and I immediately began to pontificate 01:11:13.949 --> 01:11:16.920 on. why i thought she had this problem what she 01:11:16.920 --> 01:11:19.979 needed to do about it etc and she listened politely 01:11:19.979 --> 01:11:21.619 for about 10 minutes and then finally she just 01:11:21.619 --> 01:11:24.180 put her hand up like this and said would you 01:11:24.180 --> 01:11:26.319 please be quiet and just listen to me for a little 01:11:26.319 --> 01:11:31.920 while okay i of course said you got it and what 01:11:31.920 --> 01:11:33.760 happened that was wonderful she sat there and 01:11:33.760 --> 01:11:36.079 talked for about 20 minutes she worked her way 01:11:36.079 --> 01:11:39.380 through the issue herself okay she talked her 01:11:39.380 --> 01:11:42.560 way through it she reached an end point I said 01:11:42.560 --> 01:11:45.039 something really profound like, well, sometimes 01:11:45.039 --> 01:11:48.979 you got to do what you got to do. And she stood 01:11:48.979 --> 01:11:51.859 up and thanked me and gave me a hug. And then 01:11:51.859 --> 01:11:54.600 I got some feedback a few months later that she 01:11:54.600 --> 01:11:56.960 found this very helpful. She resolved her situation. 01:11:57.680 --> 01:11:59.539 But I was the one that was left with the gift 01:11:59.539 --> 01:12:01.500 because of her telling me, would you please be 01:12:01.500 --> 01:12:04.159 quiet and just listen to me? And that's something 01:12:04.159 --> 01:12:07.399 that we can offer to anybody that's been traumatized. 01:12:07.439 --> 01:12:10.220 It means, yes, she listened to some hard stuff 01:12:10.220 --> 01:12:14.279 to hear. But a lot, a lot, a lot of these folks 01:12:14.279 --> 01:12:17.279 of trauma of any sort, all that they really need 01:12:17.279 --> 01:12:19.539 is somebody to listen to them. Who's willing 01:12:19.539 --> 01:12:21.319 to just sit down and say, tell me how you're 01:12:21.319 --> 01:12:23.939 doing. Tell me what you went through. And is 01:12:23.939 --> 01:12:26.399 really willing to listen without judgment, without, 01:12:26.739 --> 01:12:29.260 well, if you just pray hard enough, you'll be 01:12:29.260 --> 01:12:31.460 fine. Or, well, if you just do this, you'll be 01:12:31.460 --> 01:12:35.600 fine. No, to just listen. And that, to me, is 01:12:35.600 --> 01:12:38.359 the cornerstone of really any kind of wounded 01:12:38.359 --> 01:12:41.680 healer work. Keep my mouth shut and just listen. 01:12:42.579 --> 01:12:45.659 Well, this has been such a joy, Dr. Patterson. 01:12:45.699 --> 01:12:48.319 Thank you for coming off the page. And I encourage 01:12:48.319 --> 01:12:50.720 our listeners to check out your work in St. Anthony 01:12:50.720 --> 01:12:54.100 Messenger and then online as well. They can just 01:12:54.100 --> 01:12:56.319 search your name and you have some really wonderful 01:12:56.319 --> 01:12:59.800 stuff. And I hope and pray this conversation 01:12:59.800 --> 01:13:03.279 is healing for our listeners. I hope so very 01:13:03.279 --> 01:13:06.460 much. Very much. Thanks for having me, Stephen. 01:13:11.979 --> 01:13:15.760 Once again, that was Dr. Richard Patterson. I've 01:13:15.760 --> 01:13:18.479 linked to Dr. Patterson's articles in St. Anthony 01:13:18.479 --> 01:13:21.539 Messenger and some of his other work in the show 01:13:21.539 --> 01:13:25.380 notes of this episode, as well as to the helpful 01:13:25.380 --> 01:13:28.699 trauma resources Dr. Patterson mentioned at the 01:13:28.699 --> 01:13:32.439 end of our conversation. Thank you for tuning 01:13:32.439 --> 01:13:36.579 in, and thanks as always for your support. This 01:13:36.579 --> 01:13:40.220 is Stephen Copeland signing off. Peace and all 01:13:40.220 --> 01:13:48.659 good. I will lead you into the desert with me 01:13:48.659 --> 01:13:51.539 and tenderly speak to your heart.