In the year 1202, a young Giovanni Bernardone,
who we would come to know as St. Francis of Assisi,
was captured in a conflict between Assisi and
Perugia and held as a prisoner of war for about
a year. The conditions for Francis would have
been harsh. He was probably held in a dark, cramped,
unsanitary cell with inadequate food and water
for months on end. The physical and psychological
strain he would have suffered is absolutely unfathomable.
He was around 21 years old with ambitions to
become a knight, a dream that of course suddenly
came crashing down. And we learn from sources
that he became severely ill during this imprisonment.
This horrific experience as a prisoner of war
forever changed Francis. Many theorize this brokenness
is what made way for his spiritual transformation.
And Francis, though often portrayed as a romantic
or mystic who was always experiencing the beauty
and goodness of God, he likely ventured throughout
his life suffering from what we would now call
PTSD, post -traumatic stress disorder. The darkness
and brokenness Francis experienced as a prisoner
of war accompanied him. most likely, probably
until his dying day. And yet, Francis undoubtedly
became a wounded healer, to borrow the great
phrase from Henry Nowen's wonderful book. Francis's
journey might lead each of us to ask some questions.
What is the brokenness that I carry? Is there
trauma, perhaps, that my body, heart, and mind
holds? How can I continue to move toward healing
and wholeness, even while carrying these things
that are difficult to understand? And lastly,
how can I ultimately use my story to become a
wounded healer for others, just like Francis?
Today's guest is Dr. Richard Patterson, a clinical
psychologist and trauma therapist practicing
in El Paso, Texas. Two of the primary groups
he has worked with in his career as a therapist
are combat veterans and victims of clergy abuse.
Dr. Patterson has spent much of his adult life
on a quest to find a bridge between psychology
and spiritual studies. He has shared that journey
through four books and numerous articles exploring
the intersection between psychology and spirituality.
He is a regular contributor to St. Anthony Messenger,
who has a new piece in our July -August issue
titled Turn to the Beatitudes. I have linked
to all of this in the show notes of this episode.
Forewarning, we delve into some heavy topics
this conversation. Our recommendation is to please
find a professional therapist you can trust to
work through trauma or anything that may rise
up as you listen. to this conversation. And due
to the heaviness of the material, I have not
provided reflection segments this episode and
feel that that should be left to a professional.
So without further ado, here is Dr. Richard Patterson.
Dr. Richard Patterson, welcome to the Off the
Page podcast. Thank you. Thank you. It's great
to be here. Yeah, we really appreciate you being
here, and you're a wonderful contributor to St.
Anthony Messenger as well. So I know our readers
are grateful for the wisdom that you share with
us each year and your really wonderful stories
that have come out in our magazine. So I'd like
to begin. We're going to get into some heavy
things today. We're going to talk about trauma.
We're going to talk about grief, healing. Can
you begin by telling listeners a little bit about
your background and what made you want to become
a clinical psychologist? Sure, sure. I started
out really in grade school. I was planning to
go into the seminary. And really up until I—it
was the summer before, the summer right after
I graduated from high school. I changed my mind.
And in terms of looking back at that, some of
the stuff that's come up and the things that
we'll cover, I think were factors in that. But
we can come back to that. But anyway, I decided,
no, I'm not going to go into the seminary. But
I wanted to be helpful in some way. I wanted
to be of service. So first I thought I would
be a social worker. But then to be honest with
you, I mean, my motives weren't all that noble
because I found out social workers didn't make
a lot of money. And like I say, I wanted to earn
a decent living as well. So I thought, well,
okay, maybe I should go to medical school. But
I realized that that was not a good idea. I really
hated school, to be quite honest with you, and
had had problems in school forever with behavior
and so on and so forth. So I thought that's not
practical. I lacked the self -discipline to go
to medical school. So I thought, okay, let's
try psychology. And it kind of proceeded from
there. You know, I finished my undergraduate
degree, went off to graduate school, almost slunk
down to graduate school. But they kept me around.
And I think all of that ultimately meant that
I was doing what the good Lord wanted me to be
doing. It just wasn't the smoothest trajectory
for me to get there. So I did that. I did my
internship in South Carolina, and then I owed
four years to the United States Army. And so
we went from South Carolina, ended up here in
El Paso, where I served for four years, and then
got out and opened my practice, and here I am
quite a few years later. I think it was what
I was intended to do. Yeah, you mentioned the
Army, and interestingly, we're recording this
on, this is June 27th, which is National PTSD
Awareness Day. Two things show up often in your
writing at St. Anthony Messenger, and that is
your work with victims of clergy abuse, and then
as well as combat veterans. Can you dive into
your work with these two demographics? You can
start wherever you want. Sure. Sure. Well, let's
start with the clergy abuse issue because that's
been a more complicated kind of journey for me,
I think. Officially, I got into treating victims
of clergy abuse in the late 1980s, in which at
that point, I mean, it was not being talked about.
But a young man came to me and he wanted assistance.
He was suing the diocese, okay, for them. doing
what they did. And he had been abused by a priest
named Father David Holly. Now, that's open information
because he became notorious. And in fact, when
I saw the movie Spotlight, his name is mentioned
in it. And my goodness, that was like a punch
in the stomach because I knew one of this man's
victims, just incredibly. And so that exposed
me to that. That was an eye -opener. OK, but
in many ways it wasn't because I'll just share
with you very briefly. Back when I was 16 years
old with this seminary that I told you about
that are the religious order I was thinking of
joining, I went to visit their seminary. And
they had me room with a seminarian who was maybe
in his 20s. And during the middle of the night,
the guy tried to molest me. OK, and. The reality
is I was a pretty aggressive person back then.
So I yelled at him and I cursed at him. And he
backed off. I think I scared him and he backed
off and left me alone. And at the time, I never
really thought too much more about it. I don't
believe I was traumatized by it. But obviously,
I've never forgotten. So when I began dealing
with victims of clergy abuse, that rang a bell.
Okay. Okay. Yeah. I wasn't nearly as traumatized
as the way some of the people were that I dealt
with. Anyway, so I dealt with this young man,
read some of the initial reporting that was coming
out. And what became apparent was that this Father
Holly, he had been up there in the Boston diocese,
as is portrayed in the movie. And he got into
a lot of trouble there. And apparently what they
did was they shipped him down here. You know,
poor town, ignorant people on the border there,
what'll they know? Which made me angry. So that
also exposed me to the aspect of cover -up. Because
obviously, whoever was on the receiving end here
in El Paso knew that this guy was a problem.
And he got, they did the same thing with him
while he was in El Paso. They moved him around
whenever he would do his thing. So anyway, I
met this young man, and because of that, the
word got out that I was willing to treat victims
of clergy abuse. And so over the next several
years, I saw a number of people, not all males,
mostly males, but not all males, who as children
primarily had been sexually abused by Catholic
priests. That – my status with that, my status
with treating those people, my status with demanding
that the diocese do something about it did not
turn out well in terms of my relationship with
the diocese. For a time, I was labeled as an
enemy of the church because I was supporting
these people in whatever they needed to do. That's
not the case now. I seem to have a decent relationship
with the current. hierarchy here in El Paso,
but for many years it wasn't because of that.
And, you know, I have no regrets about doing
what I needed to do. Absolutely. Yeah. What was
the, hit pause here for a second. Sure. What
was the time period that you had this client
and then also when you were kind of at odds,
not kind of, but certainly at odds with the diocese
there because of the work you were doing in clergy
abuse and psychology? That was in the late 80s,
and it really went into the 2000s in terms of
both my treating victims of clergy abuse and
being at odds with the diocese because of that.
One of the things that happened was that I was
interviewed on television. They called up, and
this was in the early 2000s when the stuff in
Boston was really getting a lot of publicity.
And so this young reporter called me and said,
I understand you treat victims of clergy abuse,
which made me uneasy because that was all confidential.
But she wanted to come and interview me. Well,
about two years prior to that, I had written
an article that came out in America magazine
called My Church is Dying, which is what I felt
at the time. I felt my church was in trouble.
And so I wrote this article, which generated—
Because you were Catholic throughout your whole
life, correct? Yes, still am. I still find myself
as Catholic. Different than when I was a kid,
for sure. In any case, I wrote this article.
So at the end of the interview, she was asking
me, and what do you see as the future of this?
And I said in the interview, well, I have some
fear that my church is dying. And so that created
quite an uproar. The following Sunday, we went
to Mass, and obviously all the priests had been
directed to preach about this television interview
thing because the preacher was talking—he didn't
say anything to me, but he was talking about
it, and he said, and we shouldn't feel like the
church is dying, at which point my wife leans
over and kind of gives me an elbow on the side
there because she knew what it was all about.
So anyway, that soured my relationship some more
with them. But at the moment, it seems to be
good. I know that the current bishop, he's a
fan of St. Anthony Messenger because I've shared
with him some of the stuff I've written. And
so that seems to—but it obviously had an impact
on me in terms of my Catholic journey. All of
that did. Yeah, that's what I was going to ask
you about, because I would imagine that as you
are coming alongside these people, mostly men,
like you said, who suffered horrific sexual abuse
at the hands of clergy, that This would do something
to your own heart, your own mind, and then also
your own faith in relationship with a church
in which you had always belonged. So can you
dive a little bit into that journey for you?
Sure. I mean, it obviously had an impact on me.
In many ways, I was a little more bothered by
the cover -ups because I could understand that
some of these people, they were troubled. Maybe
they were mentally ill. Some of them clearly
were pedophiles, and that's a very intractable
kind of mental illness. And so that didn't excuse
anything, but at least it made it understandable.
But what I had trouble understanding were the
cover -ups. in terms of people being moved around
and so on and so forth. And even blacklisting
you, correct? Absolutely. That is an attempt
to add a cover -up, and you're in the middle
of it doing healing work that the Church needs
to do. I think a lot of listeners would find
that bizarre. It was disturbing at some level.
You know, I mean, some of my friends, they thought,
yeah, good for you. And, you know, speak up and
blah, blah, blah. Okay, I appreciated that. But,
you know, at a deeper level, it hurt because
my Catholicism was and still is important to
me. So, obviously, and to be honest with you,
Stephen, I've been a questioner all my life.
So, I mean, I've had doubts that I've struggled
with. Some of my writing has been about that
kind of stuff and so on. So this really fed into
that in the sense of, well, maybe I'm in the
wrong place. Maybe I should find a different
path or whatever. And so in the late 90s, to
be honest with you, I took a sabbatical from
the Catholic Church. Stopped going to Mass, stopped
going to any kind of sacraments, stopped having
any dealings other than with a handful of clients
that I had. Took that time. I did a lot of reading.
I studied. That was when I read C .S. Lewis's
Mere Christianity for the first time. Some of
Thomas Merton's writings, Henry Nouwen, who had
already had a major impact on my life. So I went
back to some of the people that I knew and Thich
Nhat Hanh, other points of view, other religions
and so on. And it was a very, very productive
time for me. And what was funny was during that
time, my mother -in -law was coming to stay with
us for a few months. She was a lovely person.
I loved her to death. But she was very, very
solid Catholic. She was into the charismatic
movement. And so when I was telling my wife,
I said, when your mom comes, out of respect for
her, I feel like I need to tell her that I'm
not going to church right now. So bless her heart,
she shows up. And I said to her, Betty, I need
to tell you that. I'm not going to church right
now. I'm taking a break. And she said, oh, I
can't imagine my life without Jesus. And I said,
well, my problem is not with Jesus. My problem
is with the Catholic Church. She said, oh, okay.
Bless her heart. Yep. So it was a productive
time and it caused me to reflect on, okay, what
if anything is still meaningful to me with my
Catholicism? Okay. That's when I saw I missed
the sacraments. I missed Eucharist. I missed
the mystical element about Catholicism. And so
I realized it was time for me to go back. Some
different kind of thinking, some different things
that I emphasized and looked for. But that was
a productive time for me, just to stand back.
Yeah, were you... Were you ever angry or bitter?
I just cannot fathom the conversations you were
having at that time with your clients and then
reconciling that with this church that is also
pushing you out. Right. It was, well, see, that's
why I had to accept that the church itself, the
Catholic church itself, was very flawed, very
human. in my opinion, no different than any other
particular type of church. And so, I mean, part
of when I went back was that, well, I have to
be willing to accept this. I don't particularly
like it, but I have to accept that this church
is flawed. And the manner in which they have
dealt with the clergy abuse issue is very flawed.
But there was still enough there in terms of
the essence of my Catholicism that has kept me
going. Yeah. Yeah, what did you, I'd like to
get into your work with combat veterans as well.
However, what did you learn from these men mostly
who you were counseling? What struck you about
them and what impact did that have on not only
your trajectory in life, but also your own heart?
Well, I mean, these people to me were all courageous.
They were heroes in my book. A lot of them stopped
having anything to do with the Catholic Church,
understandably so. One man found some healing
through art, did some artwork, and that really
helped him heal. He had a substance issue. He
managed to overcome that. And I actually heard
from him a few months ago, and he's become a
counselor. So I think what some of these people
did was they became wounded healers. You know,
they found— A great phrase from Henry Nouwen,
yeah. That's changed my life, but we can talk
about that another time. But, you know, he—these
people, they just—they faced it. They didn't
give up on God particularly. Some of them just
gave up on the Catholic Church. And that was
enlightening to me because they all were deeply
wounded spiritually, beyond psychological wounds.
They were just so—sense of betrayal, anger with
God. and so on and so forth. And they taught
me a lot about what I would call spiritual courage,
being able to face spiritual pain and try to
heal from that, much less the psychological part
of the trauma. Yeah, you used a great phrase
there from a favorite author of both of ours,
it sounds like, Henry Nouwen, Wounded Healer.
What does that mean to you, particularly with
your, not only your own story, your own journey,
but your vocation? Well, I think I read Henry
Nowen's book, The Wounded Healer, for the first
time in the early 80s. OK. I thought it was good
and I thought, oh, I like that and so on. And
then and what for me was a God moment. I reread
it a couple of years later and it had a tremendous
impact on me. And his book, more than anything,
helped me face my own issues with addiction,
to be quite honest with you. It was because of
that book because I would ask myself, well, in
what ways am I wounded? And there were things
from the past and so on. But ultimately, I said,
you know, you drink too much. You have an issue
there. You have an alcohol issue. And it was
Henry Allen's book that helped me find a place
within myself to go get some help. So he's been
very significant. And bless his heart, I have
a book that he signed for me by himself because
I sent one of my earlier books to him. And bless
his heart, he wrote back to me a lovely letter,
gave me one of his books that was inscribed.
And, oh, it's just, you know, it has meant a
lot to me. So he's certainly one of my spiritual
mentors. That's a little off track, I know. And
that has been an organizing principle for me
with a lot of the work that I've done, both personally
and then in terms of the people that I deal with.
Absolutely. Facing your wounds, try to grow from
them, try to learn something from them. And then
if you can be of service to other people, even
better. Yeah. And then what about this other
primary demographic? I hate that term. It sounds
so dry. But, you know, when it comes to combat
veterans and your work with them, dive into your
work with this group and then their impact on
your own life as well. Well, first of all, I
did not like being a soldier. I wasn't a very
good soldier. I had an attitude at that time.
You know, I was a child of the 60s and had done
some of the marches and so on, but here I was
in the military. Didn't have a real good attitude
about it. Was real glad when I got out, put in
my four years and got out. And so flash forward,
I start receiving referrals with, I mean, I had
dealt with veterans all along, but really began
doing evaluations and heavy duty treatment. It
was kind of one of God's little jokes because
I would have my discharge hanging on my wall
along with my degrees and all that other good
stuff. And it turned out this mattered to these
folks that would come in. I was a veteran. I
mean, there was one young guy that came in, sweet
young man. He was really struggling, struggling
to talk about what he had been through in Iraq.
And he looked up and he said, oh, Doc, you're
a veteran. And as always, I said, yes, I am,
but I'm not a combat veteran. And he just looked
at me and says, you don't know what a relief
it is to be talking to another veteran. And he
burst into tears because it was such a relief
for him. I don't fully understand that, but the
irony is as much as I disliked being a soldier,
it's turned out to be very meaningful for a lot
of the folks that come to see me that I'm a veteran.
Like one man, one of the nicest moments, I was
dealing with a fellow who was a Vietnam veteran.
And we had finished our interview. I was doing
an evaluation and we had finished our interview
and we stood up and he looked up and he saw my
discharge. He said, oh, Doc, you're a veteran.
And I said, yeah. I said, but I'm not a combat
veteran. And he says, doesn't matter. You're
a brother. And he comes over and gives me a big
bear hug. For listeners, what would you like
them to understand about these two groups of
people? Well, I would want them to understand
that. They feel like they don't fit in, for one
thing. Both groups. I mean, the first group,
the clergy abuse people, they have a lot of trouble
finding any kind of spiritual home. And, of course,
they carry a lot of shame and blame. I mean,
a lot of them, even though they were kids, they
blamed themselves and so on. And really the same
thing with the veterans. Okay, a lot of veterans
that I've dealt with, they carry blame. They
carry shame. They will tell me stories about
changing an assignment with another soldier and
then having that soldier get killed in their
place and so on. And it's not that they want
special treatment. It's kind of like one time
one veteran told me. You know, some of us don't
like being told, thank you for your service,
because it kind of puts us over here, makes us
like separate. You did that. That was your service.
And we're over here and we're fine. So I don't
do that as much. And so really both groups, they
just feel like they don't belong. Obviously,
the first group, the clergy abuse group, they
have a lot of trouble finding any kind of spiritual
home. The second group, the veterans, just have
trouble fitting in. They come back from horrific
kind of events. And even within their own families,
they'll feel different. And so they feel like
they don't fit in. And so to feel some acceptance,
to feel some loving attention makes a great deal
of difference to these folks. And the one thing
that neither group wants is pity, which I think
is why some of them react to this thank you for
your service thing. Some of them interpret that
as pity, and they don't want that. Yeah. And
really, the one common theme with trauma victims
in general is that they do and they don't want
to tell their story. You know, they don't want
to tell it because they fear judgment. They do
want to tell it just to get it out, just to get
it out, to put it out and try to be done with
it. And so it makes a great deal of difference
for both groups to feel like they're dealing
with somebody, whether it's a therapist or not,
who doesn't judge them and more than anything
is willing to just listen. And not tell them
what they need to do to fix it all. Yeah, I imagine
that some listeners are hearing what you're saying
and maybe thinking to themselves, well, maybe
I didn't suffer from clergy abuse or maybe I
was never a veteran or however the language you're
speaking. the words you're using to name this
chasm that we can call it trauma, maybe really
resonating with some. So can we just go to kind
of ground level here? As a clinical psychologist,
what is trauma? And perhaps what is a pathway?
And I know that, and we should say, here at the
start that the best thing is to find a therapist
or counselor who you trust. Correct. Um, however,
I know at least for me, it was books. Like you
mentioned the wounded healer by Henry Nowen or
podcasts. It was, it, it was this media that
I was consuming that allowed me to feel less
alone, um, during these different aspects of
my journey. So that being said, What is trauma?
Well, when we talk about trauma, you need to
keep two things in mind because there's the official
diagnostic definition of trauma, which really
has to do with exposure to death or near death
or life -threatening kinds of situations to include
sexual assault and so on. That's kind of the
official definition. course of human events,
there are other things that have a traumatic
impact. Loss of a job, death of a parent, divorce,
and so on and so forth. So there's a lot of other
things that have a traumatic impact that maybe
don't qualify for a diagnosis of post -traumatic
stress disorder, but nonetheless have a devastating
impact on us. And it's far more common than we
realize. It's far more common, in part because,
you know, we all have a tendency to kind of minimize
things, say, well, it wasn't that bad. It wasn't
that bad. Yeah, I almost got killed in a car
accident, but it wasn't that bad. Or, yeah, my
father would beat me up when I was a kid, but
it wasn't that bad. And so, you know, we have
a tendency to kind of minimize things, even though
they're working on us, even though they're showing
up in irritability or... or even nightmares and
so on and so forth. So it's just important to
keep in mind because sometimes people will think,
well, you know, my father never tried to kill
me. Yeah, he beat me, but he never tried to kill
me. I never felt like he was trying to kill me.
Yeah, but it still was a trauma. It might not
be this official diagnostic trauma, but it had
that impact on you. So any kind of life -changing
event. has the potential to have a traumatic
impact. Yeah, it's a rupture, it sounds like.
It is a rupture in your life in a way that drastically
changes everything on some level. And a lot of
people will do their best to, I mean, I do believe
I've met some really resilient people who've
been through some awful things and just managed
to keep going forward. I've seen that a lot in
my work. That's part of what kept me going. And
so that's very, very common. But with a lot of
people, like in my work, it may not be the reason
that they came to somebody like me. But if we
just dig around a little bit, sure enough, for
a lot of us, there's trauma in our background.
And yeah, indeed, there's no... correct way to
deal with that yeah yeah I like what you said
earlier about this kind of architecture that
has played out in your own life of becoming a
wounded healer where for you it began with really
confronting hey, I have an addiction, and I need
to deal with that. And then even just these different
elements of your story, the fact that you were
in the Army for four years, the fact that you
did have a clergy member in seminary try to molest
you. I mean, all of these different aspects of
your story, it's... It's very interesting that
now you're using them to be a wounded healer
for others. So I really like that trajectory,
Dr. Patterson, of, hey, what does it look like
for each of us to become wounded healers on some
level, even if we're not a clinical psychologist?
Right, exactly. But for me, my thinking is that
much of that begins with confronting. It could
be trauma. It can be addiction. It can be that
thing in your life that needs to be acknowledged
and named and to move through. So what does it
look like to move through trauma or these different
aspects of brokenness that we're naming? Well,
I think one of the things that when people are
trying to heal from trauma, one of the things
that is hard for them to accept is you're not
going to forget this stuff. You know, I've had
people come in and ask me, can you help me forget
what happened in my childhood or what happened
in Iraq or Afghanistan or what happened with
that priest or whatever. I've had people ask
me that and the answer is no. No, how could you?
How could we forget those kind of events? And
so the process of healing, whether it's with
therapy or anything else, really involves reclaiming
power from an event that has happened. And of
course, one of the strong ways that we can reclaim
power is learning to, how can I take this and
be of assistance to somebody else? You know,
the wounded healer image, it's the cornerstone
of 12 -step programs, okay? It's the cornerstone
of that. We see that with veteran support groups.
I mean, veterans who are frustrated with the
VA and so on, they're turning to help one another
out. And again, it's that image of, of Wounded
Helo. Even in the whole clergy abuse issue, I
mean, the SNAP group that was developed up in
Boston as a support group for victims of clergy
abuse, again, it's saying, okay, let me take
what has happened to me, but let me get some
of the power back so that I can talk about it
and then I can be of service to other people.
Yeah, that's what's... That's what is so complex
to me and nuanced about this is that on one level,
a trauma always goes with you, which sounds very
daunting. It's in a sense, you're almost working
through it throughout the rest of your life.
And then on another level, in the midst of that.
you have to reclaim your power hundreds, thousands
of times probably as this trauma is going with
you. Do you know what I'm saying? Yes, absolutely.
I'm not saying those two things are at odds,
but it's certainly complex. Well, and it has
to do with not letting trauma define who I am.
The fact that these things happened to me, the
fact that I saw and did some things in combat,
the fact that this priest molested me, the fact
that I was sexually abused as a child, that doesn't
have to define who I am unless I let it. I'm
damaged goods. I've had people say that to me.
I'm damaged goods. And so that's part of what
has to heal is that. I'm not letting this yes.
This is an important part of my life, but I'm
not gonna let it define who I am more than that
and that's That's possible. It's not an easy
road by any means But I've seen plenty of people
do that What defines who you are? What defines
who I am? Well, I think my story My story and
sharing pieces of my story over the years. I
don't think any of us can sum it up. Well, this
is who I am. But like pieces of my story that
I've shared with you, that gives you some insight
into who I am rather than just labeling it. And
that's why it's so important for people to have
some kind of opportunity to tell their story.
whether it involves trauma or not, because it
just helps them understand who they are a little
bit better. If that makes sense. Absolutely.
Yeah, I know for me, one of the things I at least
try to come back to whenever I'm wrestling through...
I tend to have these dark spells every like four
or five weeks. And maybe that's stuff from the
past. Maybe that's, you know, just my brain chemistry.
I have no idea. But one of the things I'm always
trying to remember, whether, you know, it's guilt,
whether it's shame, whether it's regret, whether
it's future tripping, whatever it may be, when
I slip into these dark states, it goes back to
Henry now. And for me is you're the beloved.
And because you're the beloved, your story is
worth naming on a personal level and then maybe
sharing to help and heal others. And sometimes
it, you know, like when I lost my mom really
suddenly a few years ago, remembering that I
was the beloved, it did not solve anything. It
did not explain. how a perfectly healthy person
can just, her heart can stop in the middle of
the night. However, it reminded me of a God that
enters more deeply into my suffering without
the need to explain it. Because we are the beloved.
Do you have anything to add there? I think it's
an interesting conversation we're having about
identity and defining who you are, but then also
the complexity of these traumatic things that
mark us throughout the rest of our lives. Well,
you know, I mean, what comes to mind with what
you're saying is that obviously how I deal with
trauma. is going to touch on my beliefs about
God. Okay? I mean, a lot of the people that I've
dealt with are very angry with God. And obviously
there was people I've dealt with who, like one
man I dealt with, he said, you know, how can
I believe in a God when I saw my best buddy burn
up in a vehicle? How can I believe in a God that
would permit that? Okay? which is for many people
that have suffered not just trauma, but like
the death of a loved one suddenly, unexpectedly.
It pulls us into what is God part of this in
any way? And if so, how so? Okay. You know, I'll
share this story with you. And maybe this is
off track. That's all right. That's your problem
to figure out. The joy of this podcast is the
freedom to go off track. Okay. Well, this just
illustrates the spiritual challenge of all of
this to me. The other thing that I did in the
late 80s and into the 2000s was I treated AIDS
patients, which was extraordinary, an extraordinary
experience. And one time this boy was brought
in. He was 12 years old. Okay. And he had AIDS.
This was before they really made progress with
the medication and so on. And so he had AIDS
and he was very anxious, which I thought was
pretty understandable. So I talked with him and
his mother for a little while. And then I asked
his mom to step out so that I could talk to the
boy alone for a bit. And I said to the boy, you
know, and he was, he knew a lot about his illness.
He had read about it. And I said, I'm really
impressed. You've educated yourself quite a bit.
I said. Do you have any questions that I could
answer for you? And this boy lived in a faith
-based family. So I said, do you have any questions?
He said, yeah, I have a question. And I said,
fire away. I said, why did God do this to me?
Why did God do this to me? He said, I didn't
do drugs. I haven't had sex. Why did God do this
to me? And that to me was a stunning question.
And I didn't have a simple answer for him. And
I tended, you know, ever since then, I've tended
to be suspicious when people have simple answers.
You know, I dealt with a veteran recently, and
he was in Walter Reed Hospital after multiple
explosions. And we got into some of these spiritual
issues of the trauma, and he said, you know,
Doc, I had somebody come to me. I don't know
whether they were a chaplain or not, but they
came to me a while ago, and they told me, well,
this has happened to you in Iraq. for a reason
god wants you to learn something well he got
furious he cussed the person out and kicked him
out of his room okay and so you know that's a
question that i've i've struggled with personally
having grown up in a family that lost children
and um i think anybody who has been through trauma
struggles with um so that You know, it kind of
challenges us, especially if we do have a spiritual
foundation of, well, what do we think about that?
You know, it's the big why question. And I think
anybody who's gone through any kind of trauma
that is open to a spiritual foundation is going
to encounter that question, why? Why has this
happened to me? Or why did this happen to, why
did my mother get cancer? And so on and so forth.
Why did my sisters die? And I at least don't
have an easy answer to that question. How do
you respond when someone asks that question and
wants to go the spiritual route with you? Well,
what was helpful to me, quite frankly, was Harold
Kushner's books, When Bad Things Happen to Good
People. And of course, in that book, his position,
which is not necessarily... It is what it is,
but his position is maybe God doesn't do everything
that happens to us. Maybe some bad things just
happen. And maybe what matters is knowing that
God may not have made this happen to you, but
God is walking with you. God is walking with
you through this. God is with you in your pain,
which is why I told that boy. And he didn't question
it. And he didn't get mad. I'd like to tell you
it had a dramatic impact, but I don't know, because
that boy died maybe two months later. But obviously
his question stayed with me. And he's not the
only one, but just such an innocent child asking
that question. And yeah, I mean, it's come up
many, many times. I think anybody that does any
kind of counseling or ministry or whatever is
going to run into that. Why? Why has this happened?
um yeah i like what you said how you're skeptical
of people who claim to have answers and i that
really resonates i mean trauma for me it's very
interesting and i don't know if this makes sense
but it's one of the closest things i've found
to what mysticism means And what I mean by that
is love as well, trauma and love, both of those
things, complete opposites in some regard. But
what I mean by that is, and I think someone like
St. John of the Cross hits on this with the dark
night of the soul, but it's as if you're trying
to find language for this part of your story.
and just like mysticism just like describing
the divine it's all it's like you're always falling
short of fully understanding it fully wrapping
your heart or mind around it and yet as you do
that by daring to name it you're also kind of
moving through it does that make sense yes absolutely
well this this might sound odd to you but One
of the things that, not just the trauma that
I deal with, but the trauma I've been through
myself, the irony is, did any of that make me
angry at God? You bet. You bet. But the irony
is that sometimes those moments when I'm shouting
at God, when I'm shaking my fist at God, some
of those moments I have felt very close to God.
Isn't that ironic? But it's made it real. This
is an important part of my life. And rather than
just saying, oh, well, you know, I'm going to
fight back. And I've told people that, you know,
in terms of the God of my understanding, I need
a God that I can argue with. And I know some
people have had a big problem with that, but
that's okay. It's what works for me. It's defensible.
I just finished reading the book of Job again.
I love that book. I was reading some of the Psalms.
Some of the Psalms are very angry. And so to
me, it's all there. It's in the book. You know,
it's just being okay with that. Yeah. Yeah, I
remember reading, I'm sure you've heard of this
book, but it was called Emotionally Healthy Spirituality,
I think. And that's what it was called. And a
therapist at an evangelical church gave it to
me. And I found it so freeing to realize how
emotional Jesus was and how human Jesus was.
This person who really leaned in to... Every
emotion, even the darker ones, these things that
we may consider dark, you know, flipping over
the tables in the temple. Yeah, I love that story.
It's one of my favorite stories. Yeah, yeah.
I found that I think as men sometimes we tend
to downplay or suppress feelings of sadness,
feelings of darkness. And we just kind of push
it down. And I just found that very freeing that
this Jesus I follow felt it all emotionally.
Right. Well, some years ago, I also read a book
by an author named Pierre Wolfe, and it had the
provocative title of May I Hate God. And it was
a lovely, lovely book. And he made the point
in there about, well, we define God as a loving
father. And what loving father, if his child
were mad at him, wouldn't want to hear about
it? He might not agree with it, might not agree
with the assessment, but tell me. You're obviously
angry. Come on. Let's get it. Let's hear it.
And that was very helpful to me. Yeah. Yeah,
we've hit on it some already, but I am curious.
For those listening who have a Christian background
or who want to use tools from the Christian tradition
to help them find healing, to help them move
through the trauma that they've suffered, what
in the Christian tradition, or the Franciscan
tradition for that matter, can help us on that
journey toward becoming wounded healers? Well,
I think that... I think that prayer helps in
whatever way the person is comfortable. I won't
necessarily tell somebody this is how you need
to pray because they need to find their own way
there. With all the various trauma victims that
I've dealt with, some of them have tremendous
faith. And so not to be willing to turn to that
as a resource. even if it involves doubts and
anger and so on and so forth. And then I think
the other thing that our Christian tradition
offers to us, well, two things really. One is
forgiveness. We have a strong tradition of forgiveness.
Jesus emphasized that. Jesus lived that. And
that's forgiving others and forgiving ourselves,
which in many ways is even more difficult. But
I think our Christian tradition, our Catholic
tradition can help with that. Just knowing that
it's there, that's one of the things that we're
called to. And then that we're called to learn
how to love ourselves. And all this judgment
about, I'm stupid, that was a stupid thing for
me to do. And so it's not loving. I mean, I've
dealt with people that have said those kind of
things to themselves. I remember one time, actually,
I was dealing with a person who was a priest.
He was having some trouble with sexual issues,
okay? And I thought, okay. And he was just judging
himself up and down and left and right, and I'm
terrible and I'm a hypocrite. I said, well, tell
me this, Father. When somebody comes to you,
a young teenage boy comes to you or a married
man or whatever and confesses to that same sin,
is this what you say to them? Well, you're disgusting.
Shame on you. And he said, oh, heavens, I would
never say anything like that. I thought, well,
then what's the deal? So I think, you know, that
whole emphasis on facing our sins, if you will,
or our failings or whatever, and learning to
forgive ourselves the way we would forgive somebody
else, I think is something that our Christian
tradition is very, very strong on, as well as
learning to love ourselves. Yeah, I remember
a great quote from Life of the Beloved by Henry
Nouwen. He says something along the lines of,
self -rejection is the greatest enemy of the
spiritual life because it contradicts the reality
that you are the beloved. Why, as a clinical
psychologist, why are we as humans, not everyone,
but generally most people I meet are very, very
hard on themselves. And it's so easy for self
-rejection to creep up. Why are we like that
as humans? Well, some people would say, you know,
without getting into Freudian kind of stuff,
some people would say, well, it has its roots
in our childhood, which is true. The psychologist
Carl Rogers talked about conditions of worth.
And what he meant by that was that in the normal
course of raising a child, we'll say, Don't do
that. That's a dumb thing to do. Don't do that.
Well, then we'll translate that in our little
head to I'm dumb. You know, being loved by somebody
feels conditional. Well, my parents only love
me when I'm behaving myself. That may not be
objectively true, but that's how the child kind
of processes it. So, you know, we move forward
with that, with these, what Rogers called conditions
of worth. And it turns into some judgment of
self. And you're right. I mean, in many ways,
that's one of the hardest things to help people
break through is just that self -judgment. But
what strikes me and what I will ask people is,
would you say that to somebody else? Arguably,
it's not. It's stuff that we would never say.
If I think to myself, yeah, you're stupid, you're
weak, what's the matter with you? You're worthless.
Who are you kidding? So you say, well, Patterson,
do you say that to other people? No. Yeah. Do
you say that to your children? Do you say that
to your best friend? No, I never would say that
to them. Good grief. Do you say that to your
spouse? No, I never would. But somehow or other.
And so sometimes it's a question of just – and,
you know, it's so insidious. Sometimes we don't
even know it's there until we pay attention to
it a little bit. It's like I used to say to people,
you know, you have a little Adolf Hitler on your
shoulder there. and he's whispering these nasty
things into your head, but you don't challenge
them. You know, and that's the other thing that
comes up. Sometimes I will say to people, suppose
somebody walked up to you and said, you know,
you're really stupid, and called you a stupid
expletive. How would you react to that? Well,
I'd get mad. I'd say, no, I'm not. I'd say, well,
how about this thing on your shoulder? How come
you never fight back with that? Hmm. Right? Wow.
That's so true. That's so true. So sometimes
we just have to become aware of it and then challenge
it a little bit, which is one of the, I know
this isn't what we're focused on, but it's also
one of the areas where journal writing can help.
We'll write down these negative things and challenge
them. Okay, well, I believe I'm stupid. Well,
is there any evidence to support that? Well,
I've done some stupid things, but I have an advanced
degree. I've written some stuff and so on, so
I'm obviously not completely stupid. I'm just
challenging the thought. Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean,
I think these are very helpful, practical tools
for me and then I hope for people listening as
well. We mentioned the Christian tradition. St.
Francis of Assisi himself, and maybe you wrote
about it, actually, but I've heard several theorize
that he probably had PTSD. He has to have. Yeah,
he has to have. Can you go a little bit into
that and how a reading of his life, perhaps,
and again, we're not being... We're not being
prescriptive here. We're not saying this is exactly
what you have to do to heal. However, I wonder
if there are some things from his life, going
back to his own PTSD, that we can glean to take
with us on our own journeys toward healing. Well,
I mean, to me, in reading his story, there's
no doubt that he had to have had PTSD. He was
a combat veteran. He was a prisoner of war. And
it's clear in terms of what we piece together
that when he came back, when he was released
from his prisoner of war status and he came back
to his village, he was not the same person. He
apparently was described as someone who just
was very joyful and outgoing, maybe too much
initially, loved to be out in the woods, loved
to be out in the fields. And all that changed
when he came back. going back to battle he was
going back to his life as a soldier when he had
what 12 steppers would call a spiritual awakening
okay and i think obviously at some level he was
open to that as wounded as he was there was some
part of him maybe it was just a tiny part that
in essence was saying you know heal me lord help
me And so when he was going back to battle the
second time, he had a spiritual awakening, which
changed his life completely, changed the direction
of his life completely. And I think, I mean,
that's one lesson to take from his story is that
even in the midst of anger, in the midst of the
storm, in the midst of darkness, if there's a
part of us that can at least be open to a spiritual
awakening, it can make a tremendous difference.
Yeah, I had never thought until recently about
the probable reality that Francis had PTSD from
being a prisoner of war and then being in combat
as well. And it's very moving to me that this
was a person who, despite what he had gone through,
despite what he would go through with his family
and then his own body, you know, the fact that
he wrote the canicle of the creatures, like when
his body was just tormented with illness with,
I mean, in Francis, I sent someone who just never
gave up on beauty that, okay, this doesn't make
sense. I don't know why this happened. However,
like you said, I look outside and nature is beautiful.
Yeah. And again, it, it doesn't explain anything.
It doesn't explain why you go through the things
you go through. But for me, at least it has done
something to the mind and to the heart to just,
you know what, this is a, this is a crappy day,
but I'm going to give beauty a chance. I'm going
to give hope. a chance, and not only give it
a chance, but I'm going to try to open my senses
and take it in and remind me of what's already
true. Do you have any thoughts on that? Well,
to me nowadays, I mean, I've learned that in
many ways, the places that I find God are not
necessarily in churches. I mean, some of the
most spiritual moments that I've had in my life
have been when I was in nature. One time my wife
and I were down, and the littlest known national
park in the world is Big Bend National Park down
on the southern border of Texas. It's an absolutely
beautiful place, and my wife and I had hiked
back into this canyon, which was absolutely wonderful.
And what was really, it might sound nutty, but
it was just a beautiful moment for us. We were
standing in the midst of this canyon and my wife
said, I feel like singing. And so we stood there
and we sang Amazing Grace standing in this canyon.
And as we looked at, she said, look, and she
looked up above and there were all these hawks
just circling like they were listening to us,
you know. And to me, it was a profoundly. spiritual
moment not just connection with my wife but a
connection with that place with the birds with
God and that's an experience that I've had in
a lot of different non -church settings and I'm
real grateful for that I'm real grateful for
that because those have been some of the touchstones
for me when I have questions when I have doubts
Those plus my own healing have been my touchstones
because I know that to be all God -centered.
Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. It's a beautiful
story. I do want to be respectful of your time,
Dr. Patterson. I'm good. I wanted to ask you
about a recent piece that you had in the St.
Anthony Messenger, and this beautiful piece,
and it's based around the Beatitudes. And in
the context of this conversation, I was wondering...
If you have any thoughts on how the Beatitudes
may assist us in healing, in mourning, in grieving,
in becoming wounded healers as we keep coming
back to. Right. Well, I think that in terms of
trauma in particular, I mean, there's blessed
are they who mourn because I think mourning and
grief is an integral part of recovery from trauma.
It's been said, and I agree with it, that a person
doesn't go through combat without grieving because
they have lost somebody, they've lost somebody
that they've known. The people that I dealt with,
the clergy abuse people, they grieved the loss
of their faith as they had it, okay, because
that was part of what some of these people played
on to get them to do these things. and there
are all kinds of other situations. Things happen.
It's the nature of life, and we have to grieve.
We have to face that grief. But the thing about
grieving that I would want your listeners to
know especially is that there's no correct way
to do it. A lot of people, I mean, Elizabeth
Kubler -Ross was a wonderful person, and she
helped a lot of people, but she herself never
said, I didn't mean those five stages of grief
to be taken as a literal thing. I was just trying
to articulate different types of experiences
because I've had people come in and say, well,
I don't know that I bargained or I don't know
that I've been angry and maybe I'm not doing
this correctly. And, I mean, that's summed up
for me. There was this wonderful person that
I dealt with some years ago, beautiful faith
-based lady, and she had lost her husband of
50 -odd years. And so she came in and I was asked
her, well, how are you doing? She said, well,
she belonged to a small church that had been
very supportive, very gathered around her, very
loving. And she said, you know, she really appreciated
that. But many of them have given me books about
grief. And then she pointed, she said, I have
a small stack of them. And she, of course, was
very compliant. And she said, and I've read them
all. It was about 15 books on grief. I said,
what do you think? She said, I'm completely confused.
She said, one book will tell me to give my husband's
belongings away right away. Another book will
tell me keep them as long as I want to. And on
and on and on. So you know what I did? I gave
her a book to read. Here's your 16th book. Absolutely.
But what I gave her was A Grief Observed by C
.S. Lewis, which was really his journal for the
first year after he lost his wife. It's a beautiful
book. There's no easy answers. And at the end
of the book, it's not like after the year of
grieving, it's not like, OK, I'm done. I'm fine.
It's very clear he's going to grieve the loss
of his wife, Joy, for the rest of his life, okay?
So I recommended that book to this lady. She
loved it. She came back a week later and said,
I love that book. It gave me permission to just
deal with this the way that I'm dealing with
it. That's right. So, you know, there's no—we
have to be aware of it. We have to be open to
it. I've always said that grief is sneaky. You
know, I can be thinking I'm doing fine. I'll
give you a brief example. I had an aunt when
I was growing up that was an integral part of
our family. She was a great student of the Civil
War. And so maybe two or three years ago, I was
re -watching. I decided I wanted to re -watch
Ken Burns' series on the Civil War. And I started
watching that, and I thought, oh, man, Aunt Dorothy
would have loved this. And I got emotional, okay,
because it put me in touch with that grief. over
the loss of someone whom I really loved. And
so, you know, people will complain about that.
I thought I was doing fine, but then I heard
this song and I started weeping. Well, that's
the nature of grief. It can sneak up on you.
And so the things about grief that I think are
helpful to accept is, one, there's no correct
way to do it, and two, it never really goes away.
I mean, you lost your mom. I lost my mom 30 years
ago, okay? Mother's Day is still a tough day.
Okay, it's still a tough day. Do I feel as deeply
hurt as the day that I got the call that she
died or the day of her funeral? No, no. But do
I still grieve that loss? You bet. You bet I
do. And I think that's good when people can just
accept that, that there's no correct way and
that it never really goes away completely. And
the fact that I may get... sad about the death
of my mother 30 years ago. It doesn't mean I've
not dealt with something. It just means that's
the nature of grieving. Yeah, and that you're
human. Yeah, we're human. You're a human being
who loves, yeah. Yeah, and that's what it is.
It's, you know, brief is the price tag you pay
for loving. I remember dealing with a different
lady who had lost her husband, and she was...
just really, really in anguish about it. It had
been a sudden death, and they were very close.
And I said to her, I said, well, suppose we had
a time machine, okay? Suppose you could get in
that time machine and go back to when you first
met your husband, and instead you turned and
you walked away. Would you do that? And she just
laughed and said, I'd never do that, because
I would have missed out on all those years we
had together. And I said, yeah, and this is the
price tag. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we have covered
a lot of ground, Dr. Patterson. What did we leave
out? Is there anything else that you wanted to
hit on? Well, reference PTSD. There is a very,
very good website. It's called ptsd .va .gov,
G -O -V. And it's not just for combat veterans.
It's for anybody that's suffered trauma. And
it's just got a wealth of good guidance, good
information. techniques of relaxation training
and so on. The one thing we didn't get into,
which I'll cover quickly here, is therapy, okay?
Does therapy help trauma? Absolutely. There's
some good trauma therapies out there right now.
And I think the only things to keep in mind sometimes
before people get into productive trauma therapy,
they need to address a substance or alcohol issue.
because that's how a lot of people cope with
trauma sometimes, so that's not uncommon. But
I think that if they're having trouble managing
the anger, if they're having trouble with nightmares,
they're having flashbacks, or they're having
trouble with depression, then yes, it's a good
thing to reach out and find a counselor and to
not be afraid to ask questions of a counselor.
Like, do you have good training and experience
treating trauma? Because therapists can say,
yes, I treat trauma, and they may not have a
whole lot of experience doing that. People owe
it to themselves to have somebody that knows
what they're doing. And if they want to have
a spiritual perspective incorporated, to not
be afraid about asking about that. To me... I
would never push any kind of beliefs on anybody.
But I certainly felt it was appropriate to ask
them, how are you doing spiritually with all
this? And some people are drawing on their faith
to get through it all. And so to have a counselor
or a therapist who is sensitive to that issue
can also be helpful. And finally, to not be afraid
to ask if the therapist is going anywhere. Because
I know a lot of people that go to places like
the VA get frustrated because the counselor changes,
especially when it comes to healing from trauma.
That's a problem. So towards the end of my private
practice, people would come in and they would
see that I had a little bit of snow on the mountaintop
there and they would ask me, are you planning
to retire anytime soon? I always thought that
was a fair question because they didn't want
to start dealing with something and then have
to start all over. with somebody else. So that's
also a fair question. And yes, I think that there
are good therapies out there that can be helpful.
And also to be wary of people who, there was
one other therapist in town who was telling people
he would cure their trauma in 12 sessions. And
there's no therapy on earth that can do things
that quickly. I wish there was. I'd go sign up
for it. Yeah. But there isn't. So to just be
aware of people who claim those kind of things.
And then finally, here's my last piece of advice,
then I'll let you go, okay? You can keep going
as long as you want. This is great. I could talk
to you all day. It has to do with the story.
And I think this is ultimately—oh, well, you
had asked me previously about— families and people
support people and so on and yes that's that's
important it helps for those people to educate
themselves about the symptoms of trauma and so
on for instance it's not uncommon for a trauma
sufferer to go to a restaurant and need to sit
with their back to a wall and being able to see
the exit okay that's okay that's okay there's
nothing wrong with with them doing that and so
it does help for families to understand a little
bit about the trauma that their loved one is
going through. And then finally, it summed up
for me with, I've often viewed most of my clients
as teachers. And I had a wonderful, wonderful
lesson years ago. This lady came in and she told
me briefly what her issues were. And this was
when I was a young therapist. She told me her
issues briefly, and I immediately began to pontificate
on. why i thought she had this problem what she
needed to do about it etc and she listened politely
for about 10 minutes and then finally she just
put her hand up like this and said would you
please be quiet and just listen to me for a little
while okay i of course said you got it and what
happened that was wonderful she sat there and
talked for about 20 minutes she worked her way
through the issue herself okay she talked her
way through it she reached an end point I said
something really profound like, well, sometimes
you got to do what you got to do. And she stood
up and thanked me and gave me a hug. And then
I got some feedback a few months later that she
found this very helpful. She resolved her situation.
But I was the one that was left with the gift
because of her telling me, would you please be
quiet and just listen to me? And that's something
that we can offer to anybody that's been traumatized.
It means, yes, she listened to some hard stuff
to hear. But a lot, a lot, a lot of these folks
of trauma of any sort, all that they really need
is somebody to listen to them. Who's willing
to just sit down and say, tell me how you're
doing. Tell me what you went through. And is
really willing to listen without judgment, without,
well, if you just pray hard enough, you'll be
fine. Or, well, if you just do this, you'll be
fine. No, to just listen. And that, to me, is
the cornerstone of really any kind of wounded
healer work. Keep my mouth shut and just listen.
Well, this has been such a joy, Dr. Patterson.
Thank you for coming off the page. And I encourage
our listeners to check out your work in St. Anthony
Messenger and then online as well. They can just
search your name and you have some really wonderful
stuff. And I hope and pray this conversation
is healing for our listeners. I hope so very
much. Very much. Thanks for having me, Stephen.
Once again, that was Dr. Richard Patterson. I've
linked to Dr. Patterson's articles in St. Anthony
Messenger and some of his other work in the show
notes of this episode, as well as to the helpful
trauma resources Dr. Patterson mentioned at the
end of our conversation. Thank you for tuning
in, and thanks as always for your support. This
is Stephen Copeland signing off. Peace and all
good. I will lead you into the desert with me
and tenderly speak to your heart.