WEBVTT 00:00:07.560 --> 00:00:09.960 Welcome to Off the Page. It's great to be with 00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:14.039 you. The Trinity is a central component of Christian 00:00:14.039 --> 00:00:16.820 theology and certainly Franciscanism as well. 00:00:17.059 --> 00:00:20.640 It's seen in the mystical theology of St. Bonaventure 00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:24.300 and other Franciscan theologians, but there's 00:00:24.300 --> 00:00:27.960 a problem. The Trinity often feels unrelatable, 00:00:28.179 --> 00:00:32.229 esoteric, or just downright goofy and strange. 00:00:32.689 --> 00:00:38.229 So why does the Trinity matter? Is it mere theological 00:00:38.229 --> 00:00:43.450 jargon for academics and religious? Or does Trinitarian 00:00:43.450 --> 00:00:47.649 theology actually have a practical impact on 00:00:47.649 --> 00:00:51.640 our day -to -day lives and walks of faith? Today's 00:00:51.640 --> 00:00:54.960 guest is an author who has used story to help 00:00:54.960 --> 00:00:57.640 make the mystery and beauty of the Trinity accessible 00:00:57.640 --> 00:01:01.560 to literally millions of people around the world. 00:01:02.039 --> 00:01:04.780 It's my privilege to welcome to the podcast, 00:01:05.180 --> 00:01:09.750 William Paul Young. author of the novel The Shack, 00:01:09.810 --> 00:01:12.750 a New York Times bestseller that has sold 25 00:01:12.750 --> 00:01:16.769 million copies worldwide. The Shack was turned 00:01:16.769 --> 00:01:20.590 into a movie in 2017, starring Octavia Spencer, 00:01:20.930 --> 00:01:24.049 Sam Worthington, and Tim McGraw, among others. 00:01:24.650 --> 00:01:29.269 Paul Young is also the author of Eve, Crossroads, 00:01:29.450 --> 00:01:34.079 and Lies We Believe About God. Paul has a wonderful 00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:36.719 new podcast that I highly recommend. It's called 00:01:36.719 --> 00:01:40.340 the Paul Young Podcast. It features short 5, 00:01:40.579 --> 00:01:43.459 10, 20 -minute spiritual reflections two to three 00:01:43.459 --> 00:01:46.680 times a week. And Paul is incredibly brilliant 00:01:46.680 --> 00:01:50.939 and imaginative. But most importantly, he's loving 00:01:50.939 --> 00:01:54.219 and he's kind. I'm grateful to call him a friend. 00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:57.439 I've provided reflection segments throughout 00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:00.890 this episode. And again, These reflection segments 00:02:00.890 --> 00:02:03.950 are opportunities to pause and allow what a guest 00:02:03.950 --> 00:02:07.909 has said to sink deeper into our hearts. So without 00:02:07.909 --> 00:02:13.610 further ado, here is William Paul Young. Enjoy. 00:02:19.389 --> 00:02:22.289 Paul Young, welcome to the Off the Page podcast. 00:02:22.870 --> 00:02:29.020 Stephen, welcome to Off the Page podcast. You 00:02:29.020 --> 00:02:32.180 do it better than me. I have this little podcast 00:02:32.180 --> 00:02:34.500 that I've been doing with Nicholas, one of our 00:02:34.500 --> 00:02:38.300 boys. He does the technical stuff, and I describe 00:02:38.300 --> 00:02:44.860 it as a no -purpose -driven podcast. That's great. 00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:49.080 It's just a couple times a week, about 15 to 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:54.979 20 minutes, and it's got no plan. It's whatever 00:02:54.979 --> 00:02:58.439 happens to be sort of at the top of it. um what's 00:02:58.439 --> 00:03:01.560 going on in my world at the time and uh or things 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:03.240 that i'm thinking about or questions that i've 00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:07.680 been asked or poetry that i run into or uh you 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:11.259 know pretty much anything so you know i do these 00:03:11.259 --> 00:03:15.960 things called theology 101 which is yeah so so 00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:19.400 yeah so i've been practicing welcome to the paul 00:03:19.400 --> 00:03:23.340 young and i've got my daughter does it You know, 00:03:23.340 --> 00:03:25.439 on a lot of them at the very beginning. And then 00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:27.360 you've got a three -year -old that does some 00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:30.300 of them too. That's been awesome. One of our 00:03:30.300 --> 00:03:32.479 grandmothers. Well, it's a great podcast. I've 00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:34.620 really enjoyed listening to it. And it's really 00:03:34.620 --> 00:03:40.770 remarkable knowing you. I know you're just free 00:03:40.770 --> 00:03:43.990 -flowing and speaking from the top of your head 00:03:43.990 --> 00:03:47.870 and from deep in your heart. But you're a very 00:03:47.870 --> 00:03:51.030 gifted speaker as well. And it feels like there's 00:03:51.030 --> 00:03:52.990 a plan. Like, it feels like it's mapped out. 00:03:53.069 --> 00:03:55.270 But as I'm listening, I know that it's not. I 00:03:55.270 --> 00:03:58.509 know you're just free -flowing. You know, if 00:03:58.509 --> 00:04:00.669 I'm reading somebody's work and stuff like that, 00:04:00.729 --> 00:04:03.990 of course, you know, that's as mapped as it gets. 00:04:05.759 --> 00:04:07.219 But, you know, there are things that are going 00:04:07.219 --> 00:04:10.620 on in my life, and I've got at least a couple 00:04:10.620 --> 00:04:14.439 friends out there who are listening. Well, it's 00:04:14.439 --> 00:04:18.060 great, too, because they're 15, 20 -minute episodes, 00:04:18.100 --> 00:04:20.939 so you can listen to it on your commute. Sometimes 00:04:20.939 --> 00:04:23.720 I'll just listen as I'm starting my day, making 00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:25.920 breakfast, making coffee. I mean, it's a great 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:28.060 way to start the day. So, yeah, you're doing 00:04:28.060 --> 00:04:30.000 a great job with it. Are you enjoying it? Oh, 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:32.420 totally. And, you know, it'd be worth doing if 00:04:32.420 --> 00:04:35.720 it was just... me and a couple people that are 00:04:35.720 --> 00:04:38.040 listening because I get to do it with Nicholas. 00:04:38.519 --> 00:04:43.120 And, you know, there is something about doing 00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:47.000 things with your kids. My kids are grown. Our 00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:51.300 youngest is 31 now, and our oldest is about to 00:04:51.300 --> 00:04:55.420 turn 45, which means in 15 years he'll be turning 00:04:55.420 --> 00:05:00.680 60. I mean, think about that. That's so nuts. 00:05:03.149 --> 00:05:07.050 But yeah, we're having a blast doing it. I was 00:05:07.050 --> 00:05:10.230 asked to do some pretty high level ones. I was 00:05:10.230 --> 00:05:12.449 invited and people offered big bucks and all 00:05:12.449 --> 00:05:15.550 that kind of stuff. And I thought about it. I 00:05:15.550 --> 00:05:17.589 even did a couple episodes for one of the folks. 00:05:17.810 --> 00:05:25.149 And they started critiquing. And it's not the 00:05:25.149 --> 00:05:27.639 critique that I... I was bothered by it's the, 00:05:27.720 --> 00:05:30.740 I, and I, the way I described it is, man, it 00:05:30.740 --> 00:05:33.100 feels like I'm putting on Saul's armor and I'm 00:05:33.100 --> 00:05:38.399 just shepherd boy, you know? So, so it just like, 00:05:38.519 --> 00:05:42.220 no, not a fit. This is, this is a fit for me. 00:05:42.259 --> 00:05:45.920 No sponsors. You know, I interview my friends 00:05:45.920 --> 00:05:48.000 when they have good stories or something to tell. 00:05:48.199 --> 00:05:51.339 Yeah. Well, this podcast as well is just. been 00:05:51.339 --> 00:05:54.279 rooted in conversation and listening. So it's 00:05:54.279 --> 00:05:56.500 very free flowing in that regard as well. I mean, 00:05:56.519 --> 00:05:59.959 so for those listening, we have no itinerary 00:05:59.959 --> 00:06:03.240 here. We're just going to launch in, but you 00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:06.379 did bring up your podcast and the one, I've been 00:06:06.379 --> 00:06:10.160 listening to the Theology 101 episodes and you 00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:13.300 dip into the Trinity quite a bit. Maybe this 00:06:13.300 --> 00:06:16.019 could be a little launching off point for us. 00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:21.149 The one I just listened to, you really, you kind 00:06:21.149 --> 00:06:25.290 of framed it as, why does this matter? You know, 00:06:25.350 --> 00:06:27.550 like, why does the Trinity matter? And you brought 00:06:27.550 --> 00:06:31.310 it back to relationality. So I'd be curious first, 00:06:31.670 --> 00:06:36.990 I mean, you are obviously, in my mind, like one 00:06:36.990 --> 00:06:40.589 of the, truly like one of the, I don't know if 00:06:40.589 --> 00:06:43.250 there's a more contemporary author who's made 00:06:43.250 --> 00:06:47.189 the Trinity in Trinitarian theology more relatable 00:06:47.189 --> 00:06:50.000 and accessible than you. because of your best 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:52.860 -selling novel, The Shack, which was turned into 00:06:52.860 --> 00:06:57.160 a movie in 2017. But I was curious, how did your 00:06:57.160 --> 00:07:00.560 own conception of the Trinity shift and evolve 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:04.220 leading up to the writing of this novel? I imagine 00:07:04.220 --> 00:07:06.620 there's probably a journey there. Yeah, there 00:07:06.620 --> 00:07:11.560 is. And I grew up in a modern Western evangelical 00:07:11.560 --> 00:07:17.899 community, denomination, highly missions -oriented. 00:07:18.410 --> 00:07:23.069 And they had the Trinity. I mean, in their systematic 00:07:23.069 --> 00:07:25.610 theology, you look at a lot of evangelical stuff, 00:07:25.689 --> 00:07:32.069 and it's like page 745, one paragraph. You know, 00:07:32.069 --> 00:07:34.430 we want to give a little homage to the Trinity. 00:07:34.910 --> 00:07:39.389 But they had it, and a lot of the hymns and things 00:07:39.389 --> 00:07:45.629 were quite Trinitarian. But it was quite an abstract 00:07:45.629 --> 00:07:52.279 concept. And so, but it became very, very important 00:07:52.279 --> 00:07:58.720 to me when I started dabbling in the ideas around 00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:04.220 union. Then suddenly things began to shift for 00:08:04.220 --> 00:08:09.100 me. And as you know, and a lot of people don't, 00:08:09.100 --> 00:08:12.839 I didn't plan to be an author. I didn't write 00:08:12.839 --> 00:08:15.720 the book to... you know, do something great for 00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:18.040 God or any of those kinds of things. I wrote 00:08:18.040 --> 00:08:20.480 it as a gift for my kids because I didn't want 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:24.560 them growing up in a world in which they just 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:30.199 caved into modern evangelical theology. And I 00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:32.820 got some good things from my evangelical heritage, 00:08:33.019 --> 00:08:36.860 don't get me wrong. And they're my people. And 00:08:36.860 --> 00:08:40.159 I say, don't, you know, be careful how you talk 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:43.289 about them. They're my people. And they're a 00:08:43.289 --> 00:08:47.009 mess, but they also are ingrained with some things 00:08:47.009 --> 00:08:49.850 that, you know, such a high view of Scripture, 00:08:50.230 --> 00:08:54.389 sometimes too high a view of Scripture, but all 00:08:54.389 --> 00:09:00.610 of that. So when I wrote The Shack, I didn't 00:09:00.610 --> 00:09:03.250 want to write a book on theology. I didn't want, 00:09:03.409 --> 00:09:05.830 although when I first started thinking about 00:09:05.830 --> 00:09:08.169 it, I thought, oh, you know what I could write? 00:09:08.210 --> 00:09:11.289 I could write words your dad thinks about, you 00:09:11.289 --> 00:09:16.110 know. A's and start with some big theological 00:09:16.110 --> 00:09:20.490 word or antinomianism or something apologetic. 00:09:21.250 --> 00:09:23.730 I think the shack was a much better route. Well, 00:09:23.730 --> 00:09:26.210 yeah. I thought, oh my God, this is going to 00:09:26.210 --> 00:09:37.070 kill my kids. But I met a monk. There is a cathedral 00:09:37.070 --> 00:09:39.450 in the United States that is made completely 00:09:39.450 --> 00:09:43.399 out of concrete. And it is stunning. It is so 00:09:43.399 --> 00:09:46.500 beautiful. And so some friends took me to just 00:09:46.500 --> 00:09:50.220 see it. Well, somebody found out that I was coming. 00:09:50.279 --> 00:09:52.059 This is after the shack was out there and had 00:09:52.059 --> 00:09:56.019 blown up. And so he comes down. He's very excited. 00:09:56.700 --> 00:09:59.720 Elderly, elderly man. He gives me a big hug and 00:09:59.720 --> 00:10:01.460 he says, you know, I've been studying the Trinity 00:10:01.460 --> 00:10:04.620 for, I don't remember, it was like 50 years. 00:10:05.600 --> 00:10:09.120 And he says, I think the shack is the best book 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:11.899 ever written on the Trinity. I went, really? 00:10:12.080 --> 00:10:13.940 And I thought about it, and I thought, you know, 00:10:14.120 --> 00:10:19.899 I kind of did that by accident. I wasn't aiming 00:10:19.899 --> 00:10:24.320 at the Trinity, but I showed their relationship 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:28.340 as it actually worked, not trying to define it. 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:34.799 And it was that interpenetration of relationship 00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:38.899 without the loss of personhood. Suddenly, lights 00:10:38.899 --> 00:10:43.720 went on. intellectually as much as it was from 00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:47.299 the heart. Like, oh, if that were only true. 00:10:47.659 --> 00:10:51.240 You know, three persons who are in love with 00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:56.139 each other, and they're not three guys. So, plus, 00:10:56.200 --> 00:10:59.879 I wanted to have the image of God be spread out 00:10:59.879 --> 00:11:03.779 among humanity, not, you know, three white guys. 00:11:04.039 --> 00:11:09.460 And I wanted the white guy, me, Mac, be the one 00:11:09.460 --> 00:11:12.409 in trouble. to be the one lost, to be the one 00:11:12.409 --> 00:11:17.389 that can't get his head around life and pain 00:11:17.389 --> 00:11:23.889 and loss. And so he needed a much grander view. 00:11:24.009 --> 00:11:29.429 He needed a more magnificent vision of the nature 00:11:29.429 --> 00:11:34.450 of God. And by this time, there had been enough 00:11:34.450 --> 00:11:37.190 little bits and pieces in my life of putting 00:11:37.190 --> 00:11:40.059 things together, which... You look back and you 00:11:40.059 --> 00:11:43.019 go like, oh my gosh, you know, that little cassette 00:11:43.019 --> 00:11:45.600 tape that I listened to when I was in my college 00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:48.220 dorm and couldn't share it with anybody else 00:11:48.220 --> 00:11:52.059 because it was kind of contrary. Or that book 00:11:52.059 --> 00:11:55.059 that the president of this Bible school's wife 00:11:55.059 --> 00:11:57.320 slipped me because she thought that I needed 00:11:57.320 --> 00:12:00.120 to read something other than what I was reading 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:04.460 in the classes. Or, you know, little things like 00:12:04.460 --> 00:12:09.500 that. Or I ran into... a Siddhartha or a Herman 00:12:09.500 --> 00:12:15.759 Hesse book, right? Or some Blaise Pascal stuff 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:21.139 or Nietzsche or whoever. And they were tampering 00:12:21.139 --> 00:12:24.340 with ideas and thoughts that transcended the 00:12:24.340 --> 00:12:27.620 narrowness of my evangelical heritage. But they 00:12:27.620 --> 00:12:30.200 were bits and pieces that made sense to me. They 00:12:30.200 --> 00:12:32.919 made sense to something deeper than just my intellect, 00:12:33.139 --> 00:12:37.279 which is my survival skill at the time. was being 00:12:37.279 --> 00:12:42.740 or fooling people that I was smart. And so one 00:12:42.740 --> 00:12:46.320 of the things that made sense to me is that if 00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:48.879 God has ever been alone, love is not possible. 00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:54.279 Say that one more time. If God has ever been 00:12:54.279 --> 00:13:00.399 alone, love is not a possibility because it would 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:03.019 not be in the nature of God to love. God would 00:13:03.019 --> 00:13:07.200 need something in order to love. And there you're 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:09.000 going to get an ambivalent God, right? You're 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:11.179 going to get a God who sometimes loves and who 00:13:11.179 --> 00:13:14.580 sometimes doesn't. But for God to be by nature 00:13:14.580 --> 00:13:19.120 love, there has to be always relationality. It 00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:21.759 just has to be at the core of the nature and 00:13:21.759 --> 00:13:24.860 character of God. There's a major monotheistic 00:13:24.860 --> 00:13:28.559 religion, and I have a lot of respect for this. 00:13:29.320 --> 00:13:36.580 They do not... embrace God as by nature love 00:13:36.580 --> 00:13:40.379 for this very reason, because they're monotheistic. 00:13:40.379 --> 00:13:48.700 And their argument is, if God is love by nature, 00:13:48.940 --> 00:13:54.240 then God needed to create to be love by nature. 00:13:54.419 --> 00:13:57.539 And therefore, whatever God needs is greater 00:13:57.539 --> 00:14:01.250 than God. Therefore, creation is greater than 00:14:01.250 --> 00:14:06.090 God because God needs it to be love. That's interesting. 00:14:06.289 --> 00:14:09.809 So God is loving kindness or God is merciful 00:14:09.809 --> 00:14:14.950 or, you know, all of these activities. And love 00:14:14.950 --> 00:14:18.110 just becomes another expression of the nature 00:14:18.110 --> 00:14:21.009 and character of God. But, you know, which is 00:14:21.009 --> 00:14:25.450 very evangelical. Yeah. Like, you know, you get 00:14:25.450 --> 00:14:28.909 on the wrong side of God. And at that point, 00:14:28.929 --> 00:14:32.710 God is justice or God is, yeah, loving kindness 00:14:32.710 --> 00:14:34.889 if you do the right stuff and you're back to 00:14:34.889 --> 00:14:37.750 performance orientation magic of one sort or 00:14:37.750 --> 00:14:45.330 another. But this piece about the absolute necessary 00:14:45.330 --> 00:14:49.169 relationality, not only do I love you, but I 00:14:49.169 --> 00:14:52.750 love the one you love. You know, and you have 00:14:52.750 --> 00:14:56.570 this great dance picture. And in that dance, 00:14:57.639 --> 00:15:00.379 You know, people think that human beings are 00:15:00.379 --> 00:15:02.840 in the center, right? There is this movement 00:15:02.840 --> 00:15:05.539 all around the center. But that's not Scripture. 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:09.379 We're involved because we're in Christ. And our 00:15:09.379 --> 00:15:11.879 participation in the Trinity is because we are 00:15:11.879 --> 00:15:17.779 in Christ. And which I think is absolutely stunningly 00:15:17.779 --> 00:15:21.279 beautiful. Rather than we are the object of that 00:15:21.279 --> 00:15:25.019 love, we are participatory in the relationality 00:15:25.019 --> 00:15:28.919 of... of the being of God because we are created 00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:38.320 in Christ. For our first reflection this episode, 00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:41.740 I wanted to consider what Paul said early in 00:15:41.740 --> 00:15:45.259 this interview. He said, quote, if God has ever 00:15:45.259 --> 00:15:51.519 been alone, love is not a possibility. This is 00:15:51.519 --> 00:15:54.879 a fascinating idea that really invites us to 00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:57.899 contemplate the relational nature of reality 00:15:57.899 --> 00:16:04.000 itself. And again, language falls drastically 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:07.639 short here, but I'll try. So, I mean, if at the 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:11.100 core of reality is the Trinity, which is to say 00:16:11.100 --> 00:16:14.500 divine relationship, then that would mean that 00:16:14.500 --> 00:16:18.279 the universe. creation, reality, our very lives, 00:16:18.539 --> 00:16:23.139 are inherently relational. And I've experienced 00:16:23.139 --> 00:16:26.559 this in my own life. I've noticed that in my 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:29.519 own day -to -day living that I feel most alone 00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:33.279 and disjointed when I neglect the relational 00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:36.940 nature of my own life and reality. Non -relational 00:16:36.940 --> 00:16:40.340 thinking, for me, leads to days that feel lifeless 00:16:40.340 --> 00:16:45.240 and dry, lacking mystery and beauty. Tasks, even 00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:48.039 creative ones, become actions to check off my 00:16:48.039 --> 00:16:50.940 to -do list rather than opportunities to live 00:16:50.940 --> 00:16:54.100 out my own unique dance with the Trinity, my 00:16:54.100 --> 00:16:59.120 own union with Christ. Even parenting can become 00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:03.500 more about, say, getting the kids fed and bathed 00:17:03.500 --> 00:17:06.740 and put to bed so that I can relax rather than 00:17:06.740 --> 00:17:11.000 basking in the hilarious things they do and say. 00:17:11.789 --> 00:17:15.750 or gazing upon those mysteries, that joy, that 00:17:15.750 --> 00:17:19.789 curiosity in their eyes. So as you can see, non 00:17:19.789 --> 00:17:22.170 -relational thinking can lead to life becoming 00:17:22.170 --> 00:17:26.009 linear, or transactional even, or regimented, 00:17:26.009 --> 00:17:30.849 or approaching each task as if it's a means to 00:17:30.849 --> 00:17:35.079 an end. St. Bonaventure gave us a wonderful metaphor 00:17:35.079 --> 00:17:38.900 for a Trinitarian relational reality in his notion 00:17:38.900 --> 00:17:41.259 of fontalus plenitudo. I know I've mentioned 00:17:41.259 --> 00:17:43.839 this in the podcast before, but what this means 00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:48.259 is fountain fullness. And it's where at the very 00:17:48.259 --> 00:17:51.059 foundation of all things is the relationship 00:17:51.059 --> 00:17:55.000 of the Father, Spirit, and Son, the Word, which 00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:59.220 forms this self -diffusive fountain of love and 00:17:59.220 --> 00:18:03.329 goodness that is perpetually flowing forth into 00:18:03.329 --> 00:18:08.589 creation into our lives into our world and it's 00:18:08.589 --> 00:18:11.750 constantly inviting us to enter into an awareness 00:18:11.750 --> 00:18:18.410 of this flow of divine creativity so when I slip 00:18:18.410 --> 00:18:21.250 into non -relational thinking which is so natural 00:18:21.250 --> 00:18:24.190 and human by the way we live in a busy world 00:18:24.190 --> 00:18:27.710 where there are And there are indeed practical 00:18:27.710 --> 00:18:30.849 things to do in this busy world. Things that 00:18:30.849 --> 00:18:33.690 you do, things that in a sense you have to check 00:18:33.690 --> 00:18:37.529 off. Not always the most exciting things either. 00:18:38.069 --> 00:18:42.029 But I do, when I find myself kind of slipping 00:18:42.029 --> 00:18:45.529 into that autopilot, when I find myself slipping 00:18:45.529 --> 00:18:49.789 into non -relational thinking, I try to remind 00:18:49.789 --> 00:18:53.890 myself of this fountain. And sometimes simply 00:18:53.890 --> 00:18:56.890 turning on the faucet in the bathroom can remind 00:18:56.890 --> 00:18:59.509 me of the fountain or listening to the rain. 00:19:00.029 --> 00:19:03.450 Or yes, as I mentioned, giving my children a 00:19:03.450 --> 00:19:07.569 bath. As Thomas Merton wrote, quote, let us come 00:19:07.569 --> 00:19:11.289 alive to the splendor that is all around us and 00:19:11.289 --> 00:19:16.670 see the beauty in ordinary things. Now back to 00:19:16.670 --> 00:19:26.430 the conversation. And so I love all this stuff. 00:19:26.569 --> 00:19:31.890 And the way that I wrote The Shack, you know, 00:19:31.910 --> 00:19:37.750 for my kids for a Christmas present, was, I don't 00:19:37.750 --> 00:19:40.710 know, the timing of it in terms of where the 00:19:40.710 --> 00:19:44.869 world was. All of these things absolutely coalesced 00:19:44.869 --> 00:19:50.069 into sort of a perfect storm. And all of a sudden. 00:19:51.660 --> 00:19:57.039 That relationship, encounter with the divine, 00:19:57.359 --> 00:20:01.059 with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with love 00:20:01.059 --> 00:20:08.779 themselves became accessible. And I think that's 00:20:08.779 --> 00:20:11.599 one of the things that the shack did. I totally 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:15.460 didn't see it coming. It was never a plan. It 00:20:15.460 --> 00:20:18.859 was not a purpose -driven anything. It was, as 00:20:18.859 --> 00:20:21.190 you can tell, I'm... I don't like a purpose -driven 00:20:21.190 --> 00:20:26.190 life. Well, it creates expectations and then 00:20:26.190 --> 00:20:28.849 you begin to need people because once you have 00:20:28.849 --> 00:20:32.509 a purpose, you don't really need God. And so 00:20:32.509 --> 00:20:35.309 then you get mad at God because he's not helping 00:20:35.309 --> 00:20:37.210 you accomplish your purpose or people are in 00:20:37.210 --> 00:20:39.509 the way and they are inhibitors of your purpose. 00:20:39.549 --> 00:20:42.569 So you begin to treat them like inhibitors or 00:20:42.569 --> 00:20:45.309 they're useful in accomplishing your purpose. 00:20:45.349 --> 00:20:48.599 So you begin to... or suck up or whatever you 00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:51.200 need to do to get the help you need. You do it 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:54.579 all for God, of course. Yeah. Unfortunately, 00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:57.240 Rick Warren, I think, is a big listener of this 00:20:57.240 --> 00:20:58.799 podcast, so we're going to have to shut things 00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:02.079 down right now. Well, you know, I love the man. 00:21:02.740 --> 00:21:07.460 I love the man. And I get it. And that book probably 00:21:07.460 --> 00:21:09.460 did help a lot of people. But I can see what 00:21:09.460 --> 00:21:14.579 you're saying, where once I have a dream or purpose 00:21:14.579 --> 00:21:18.470 in my head, Now, all of a sudden, that becomes 00:21:18.470 --> 00:21:22.049 this end -all, be -all. And then your relationships 00:21:22.049 --> 00:21:25.069 along the way to get to that purpose become transactional. 00:21:25.109 --> 00:21:27.309 They become less authentic. It's like multi -level 00:21:27.309 --> 00:21:30.589 marketing, yeah? Yes, exactly. You start to take 00:21:30.589 --> 00:21:32.849 these relationships that you love and begin to 00:21:32.849 --> 00:21:38.069 utilize them. You begin to use people like you 00:21:38.069 --> 00:21:42.549 think God uses us. Yeah, exactly. You're getting 00:21:42.549 --> 00:21:44.369 into something that I think is really important. 00:21:46.059 --> 00:21:49.400 already people listening may be like, okay, so 00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:53.220 what? Why does it matter that the Father, Son, 00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:56.900 Spirit, just words, are in relationship with 00:21:56.900 --> 00:22:00.619 one another? However, for me at least, I find 00:22:00.619 --> 00:22:04.579 this kind of theology incredibly valuable and 00:22:04.579 --> 00:22:08.480 practical as well, because I'm very interested 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:15.990 in what's at the core. What's at the core? Like, 00:22:16.230 --> 00:22:18.829 what is that truth that I have not dared to fully 00:22:18.829 --> 00:22:21.829 see? And then what's at the core of reality as 00:22:21.829 --> 00:22:25.430 well? Because if we can begin to find some language 00:22:25.430 --> 00:22:30.750 or theology around this mystery, then all of 00:22:30.750 --> 00:22:34.970 a sudden I can begin to try to align myself with 00:22:34.970 --> 00:22:40.829 the very truth of reality as I see it. Does that... 00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:43.099 Does that align with kind of your journey as 00:22:43.099 --> 00:22:46.680 well? It does. We're struggling with language 00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:53.880 here. Yes. You know, because it's what I like 00:22:53.880 --> 00:22:56.960 instead of a purpose -driven life is a spirit 00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:00.980 -infused, indwelt invitation to participate from 00:23:00.980 --> 00:23:07.150 union. And I like that language better. I struggle 00:23:07.150 --> 00:23:09.630 with things like trying to align as if there 00:23:09.630 --> 00:23:13.549 is separation, right? As if there is a sense 00:23:13.549 --> 00:23:17.210 that I am not in union trying to get into union, 00:23:17.410 --> 00:23:23.009 which is mythological and actually diabolical 00:23:23.009 --> 00:23:27.910 in terms of its fundamental lie. And so it's 00:23:27.910 --> 00:23:31.579 more about... Having our inside, may the Spirit 00:23:31.579 --> 00:23:34.539 open our inside eyes so that we can participate. 00:23:34.539 --> 00:23:39.400 May our inside ears hear the invitation so that 00:23:39.400 --> 00:23:45.400 moment by moment we participate in the great 00:23:45.400 --> 00:23:48.059 dance that we've been included in from the beginning. 00:23:48.700 --> 00:23:51.279 You're just aware of it. You're more aware of 00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:53.640 the dance that you're already in, which means 00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:56.359 you can enjoy it more, which means you can be 00:23:56.359 --> 00:23:59.880 more present. It becomes the assumption of your 00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:03.539 life, not the goal of your life. That's beautiful. 00:24:03.779 --> 00:24:06.920 Yeah. Yeah, I've never said that before. It's 00:24:06.920 --> 00:24:11.220 beautiful. Yeah. You know, I've talked about 00:24:11.220 --> 00:24:14.099 the assumption of your life, but I've never said 00:24:14.099 --> 00:24:17.579 not the goal of your life. That's real. That's 00:24:17.579 --> 00:24:21.680 really important. And when it becomes the assumption 00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:24.779 of your life, everything becomes a gift. You 00:24:24.779 --> 00:24:27.039 know, whether you're invited to participate in 00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:29.720 a spiritual practice or you find those things 00:24:29.720 --> 00:24:34.220 valuable or not. And people ask me, you know, 00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:36.980 what are your spiritual practices? And I'm like, 00:24:37.079 --> 00:24:41.079 you mean today or in this moment or, you know? 00:24:42.839 --> 00:24:45.420 That's a tough thing. And I see the value and 00:24:45.420 --> 00:24:49.680 I'll participate. especially when I have a friend 00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:55.900 who invites me or I feel like it. Today, this 00:24:55.900 --> 00:24:58.059 morning, I got up. My spiritual practice was 00:24:58.059 --> 00:25:00.519 to do some exercises and then go take a sauna 00:25:00.519 --> 00:25:05.680 and pray in the spirit, pray with my understanding. 00:25:06.279 --> 00:25:12.880 And it was how this day worked out. There's no 00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:18.210 particular rhyme or reason. And that, you go 00:25:18.210 --> 00:25:20.369 back to something very, very fundamental that 00:25:20.369 --> 00:25:24.069 I talk about all the time, and that is remaining 00:25:24.069 --> 00:25:26.450 in the moment. So my spiritual practice right 00:25:26.450 --> 00:25:30.250 now is loving you, is to be here and present 00:25:30.250 --> 00:25:33.710 with you. My whole world is led up to this. My 00:25:33.710 --> 00:25:36.309 whole history, from the moment I was conceived, 00:25:36.430 --> 00:25:40.849 has led up to this moment. So my staying in this 00:25:40.849 --> 00:25:44.150 moment is to participate in eternity. And when 00:25:44.150 --> 00:25:49.039 I leave the present, moment, I start to die. 00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:52.319 Because it's death that's on Kronos, right? It's 00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:55.039 the death that's outside of the present moment. 00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:58.619 This is eternal life. If you live here, you don't 00:25:58.619 --> 00:26:02.799 die. That's Jesus, right? And this is where love 00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:05.220 is. This is where relationship is. This is where 00:26:05.220 --> 00:26:07.279 the presence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit 00:26:07.279 --> 00:26:11.319 meet with me moment by moment by moment. So whatever 00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:16.329 spiritual practice is in that moment. And it's 00:26:16.329 --> 00:26:17.970 like prayer. I was thinking about prayer this 00:26:17.970 --> 00:26:21.130 morning. It's not an event. It's a way of being. 00:26:22.410 --> 00:26:28.730 And so, like we were saying, it's an assumption. 00:26:28.950 --> 00:26:32.609 It's just an underlying assumption. And that's 00:26:32.609 --> 00:26:35.150 really different than the way I grew up. The 00:26:35.150 --> 00:26:37.269 way I grew up was I was trying to get from outside 00:26:37.269 --> 00:26:41.170 into some kind of situation experience, you know, 00:26:41.190 --> 00:26:45.640 group. Whatever was in, I was trying to get into. 00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:50.720 Yeah, you mentioned union and the theology of 00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:53.099 union being a game changer for you, as it was 00:26:53.099 --> 00:26:55.539 for me. Can you go a little bit deeper into that? 00:26:55.799 --> 00:27:00.480 Yeah, here I am in college, studying theology, 00:27:00.980 --> 00:27:05.720 good college, up in Canada. And actually is the 00:27:05.720 --> 00:27:08.019 one my parents went to years and years and years 00:27:08.019 --> 00:27:10.220 before, before we went to the mission field. 00:27:12.839 --> 00:27:18.480 And I got a hold of tapes by Malcolm Smith. I 00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:21.400 don't even know how I got a hold of him. But 00:27:21.400 --> 00:27:27.099 he's this Brit who started preaching street preaching, 00:27:27.160 --> 00:27:29.380 I think when he was 12 years old or something 00:27:29.380 --> 00:27:33.339 like that. And it was Union that shattered his 00:27:33.339 --> 00:27:36.900 world. And so I got these cassette tapes and 00:27:36.900 --> 00:27:41.140 they were talking about Union. And I saw, I mean, 00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:46.559 I bawled. I so resonated because inside the words 00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:49.019 that he was saying was the possibility of relief, 00:27:49.299 --> 00:27:55.880 of non -performance, but participatory. And I 00:27:55.880 --> 00:28:01.759 mean, Malcolm really was so funny. I was in St. 00:28:01.839 --> 00:28:04.859 Louis one time and I get a phone call and this 00:28:04.859 --> 00:28:09.240 person goes, is this Paul Young? And I said, 00:28:09.380 --> 00:28:13.009 yeah, yeah. He says. well, this is Malcolm Smith. 00:28:13.230 --> 00:28:17.430 You don't know me, but, and he says, but I really 00:28:17.430 --> 00:28:19.670 wanted to call and tell you how much I loved 00:28:19.670 --> 00:28:23.789 your book. I said, Malcolm, the reason you loved 00:28:23.789 --> 00:28:26.049 this book is because you're everywhere in it. 00:28:26.529 --> 00:28:31.890 Yeah. Well, I don't know about that, but thank 00:28:31.890 --> 00:28:36.069 you. But no, and so we became friends, but which 00:28:36.069 --> 00:28:38.589 is such a gift, you know, to become friends with 00:28:38.589 --> 00:28:40.509 somebody who had that kind of impact on your 00:28:40.509 --> 00:28:42.930 life. But that's really what turned the light 00:28:42.930 --> 00:28:45.029 on. And I could then see that that light had 00:28:45.029 --> 00:28:48.009 been shining back into my life for a long time. 00:28:48.430 --> 00:28:51.450 I'd run into union, but I couldn't see it. You 00:28:51.450 --> 00:28:53.630 know, whether it was A .W. Tozer, which is part 00:28:53.630 --> 00:28:59.089 of my denomination, or, you know, here and there 00:28:59.089 --> 00:29:02.170 and everywhere was this, I think, especially 00:29:02.170 --> 00:29:04.269 in a lot of the Eastern mystics, you would find 00:29:04.269 --> 00:29:09.730 the idea of union without necessarily the relationality. 00:29:10.170 --> 00:29:17.869 Or the necessity of the personal relationship. 00:29:18.390 --> 00:29:20.390 Because I'm not really interested in trying to 00:29:20.390 --> 00:29:22.390 build a relationship with gravity or some kind 00:29:22.390 --> 00:29:28.529 of divine force. Like, what the crap? I don't 00:29:28.529 --> 00:29:33.029 get any response. There's no give and take here. 00:29:33.150 --> 00:29:37.210 There's no growing and learning and diving deeper 00:29:37.210 --> 00:29:42.660 into personhood. And anybody that starts to think 00:29:42.660 --> 00:29:49.319 and starts to slow down enough to be aware realizes 00:29:49.319 --> 00:29:52.640 that the depth of a person is beyond our comprehension. 00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:56.380 Just one other person. I used to say, you know, 00:29:56.480 --> 00:29:59.960 marriage would be a lot easier if there wasn't 00:29:59.960 --> 00:30:07.039 another person involved. You're not wrong. No, 00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:12.269 I'm not wrong. And, you know, I was on a drive 00:30:12.269 --> 00:30:16.269 with Richard Rohr, and we had become friends. 00:30:16.349 --> 00:30:19.609 I did a conference with him down in his place. 00:30:19.990 --> 00:30:25.150 And he turns to me and he says, you know, this 00:30:25.150 --> 00:30:29.250 is strange coming from a celibate Franciscan 00:30:29.250 --> 00:30:32.990 monk, but I think the greatest gift that God 00:30:32.990 --> 00:30:37.089 ever gave the human race was marriage. He said, 00:30:38.509 --> 00:30:42.710 It puts you in a relationship that is a covenantal 00:30:42.710 --> 00:30:46.589 relationship that is not easy to run away from. 00:30:47.190 --> 00:30:52.309 And it pushes your buttons. You know, you make 00:30:52.309 --> 00:30:54.849 these covenantal statements when you first get 00:30:54.849 --> 00:31:00.150 married. And then they begin to haunt you, you 00:31:00.150 --> 00:31:02.750 know, for richer, for poorer, for better, for 00:31:02.750 --> 00:31:05.009 worse, you know, because it's all unilateral. 00:31:05.049 --> 00:31:08.539 It's covenantal. It's not transactional. And 00:31:08.539 --> 00:31:11.779 plus you're running right up against somebody 00:31:11.779 --> 00:31:17.420 else's false personas and things like that. And 00:31:17.420 --> 00:31:20.900 that only creates friction and violence in certain 00:31:20.900 --> 00:31:25.599 ways, mostly words. But it does. It gives you 00:31:25.599 --> 00:31:30.859 a burning bush opportunity to recognize in yourself 00:31:30.859 --> 00:31:34.180 the things that you actually want burned away. 00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:39.799 But again, you're dealing with person. You know, 00:31:39.819 --> 00:31:43.160 you have this little baby that is going to be 00:31:43.160 --> 00:31:45.079 born, and it's in the womb, and you're already 00:31:45.079 --> 00:31:50.720 falling in love with this little baby, you know? 00:31:51.079 --> 00:31:53.839 And you don't even know this baby hardly at all, 00:31:53.900 --> 00:32:00.380 but you know that the one carrying the baby is. 00:32:02.220 --> 00:32:04.799 It's an extension of their life, and the love 00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:07.200 that you have for them is now already abiding 00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:11.279 in this child. And then the baby is born, and 00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:16.099 then the baby begins to grow and expand. I think 00:32:16.099 --> 00:32:18.740 that the Holy Spirit gave me this understanding 00:32:18.740 --> 00:32:24.240 about love, that love is only the skin of knowing. 00:32:24.819 --> 00:32:29.519 I wrote that in the shack. It's not love that 00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:33.319 grows. It's knowing that grows. And love just 00:32:33.319 --> 00:32:36.799 simply expands around the knowing. You know, 00:32:36.819 --> 00:32:41.259 the eternal life that you know him and the one 00:32:41.259 --> 00:32:44.640 who he sent, Jesus referring to himself. But 00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:50.960 it's knowing. And that's why when your second 00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:53.819 child is conceived and begins to grow, you... 00:32:55.210 --> 00:32:57.569 Or even when you're thinking about a second child, 00:32:57.690 --> 00:33:00.029 you wonder, how in the world am I going to come 00:33:00.029 --> 00:33:02.529 up with love for the second one? Because I think 00:33:02.529 --> 00:33:05.910 I've been overwhelmed and the first one got everything 00:33:05.910 --> 00:33:12.150 I got. But that child brings with them the ground 00:33:12.150 --> 00:33:16.849 of knowing. And as that child grows, love expands 00:33:16.849 --> 00:33:20.069 around the knowing. So it's knowing that is the 00:33:20.069 --> 00:33:24.680 gift. It's love that is the response to it. Yeah. 00:33:24.759 --> 00:33:26.819 Can you go a little bit deeper into that phrase, 00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:31.059 the ground of knowing? Yeah. That's very, I'd 00:33:31.059 --> 00:33:34.359 love for you to get some more language around 00:33:34.359 --> 00:33:36.880 that. I'm very intrigued by that. Yeah. Yeah. 00:33:37.500 --> 00:33:42.619 So let me give it a shot. I was just, I was just 00:33:42.619 --> 00:33:45.140 riffing and it was like, okay, this is really 00:33:45.140 --> 00:33:48.880 beautiful. I like this a lot. And I was trying 00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:58.970 to get deeper into. the reality that we as human 00:33:58.970 --> 00:34:03.109 beings are eternal and expansive in terms of 00:34:03.109 --> 00:34:08.489 our identity. And so you cannot quantify a human 00:34:08.489 --> 00:34:10.909 being. If you're trying to control somebody, 00:34:11.190 --> 00:34:13.909 good luck. Let me know how it works for you. 00:34:14.010 --> 00:34:17.030 And the only way you can do it is through some 00:34:17.030 --> 00:34:20.889 form of violence. It's coercive and it's abusive, 00:34:21.070 --> 00:34:31.469 but to actually allow yourself to begin to perceive 00:34:31.469 --> 00:34:38.469 the wonder of that human being. Not only the 00:34:38.469 --> 00:34:42.179 human nature in them. wedded to the divine union, 00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:45.400 because we're not sparks of God. We don't have 00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:48.760 divine union. We don't have divinity apart from 00:34:48.760 --> 00:34:51.639 union. It's the fact that we're created in Christ 00:34:51.639 --> 00:34:54.820 in union, where Christ is, of course, the Father 00:34:54.820 --> 00:34:59.199 and the Spirit are. So we are that union, and 00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:02.000 the early church was so good about this. And 00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:04.340 by the way, when I wrote The Shack, I thought 00:35:04.340 --> 00:35:07.840 I was pretty much alone in terms of trying to 00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:09.900 coalesce this stuff, and it wasn't until later. 00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:13.860 that friends who happen to be like actual theologians 00:35:13.860 --> 00:35:18.159 and were skilled in early church theology began 00:35:18.159 --> 00:35:20.480 to open up that whole world to me. And I'm going 00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:24.940 like, dang, this is everywhere. But the early 00:35:24.940 --> 00:35:29.639 church was like, if you do not exist in union 00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:31.500 with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you will 00:35:31.500 --> 00:35:35.019 instantly lapse into non -being. That's Athanasius 00:35:35.019 --> 00:35:40.190 and others. Your actual existence depends on 00:35:40.190 --> 00:35:43.929 union, whether you're aware of it or not. And 00:35:43.929 --> 00:35:47.710 most of us, in ongoing sense, are not aware of 00:35:47.710 --> 00:35:51.670 it. It takes our whole lives to begin to distance 00:35:51.670 --> 00:35:54.070 ourselves from the idea of separation, which 00:35:54.070 --> 00:35:59.630 is the most fundamental lie that exists. But 00:35:59.630 --> 00:36:07.489 our embodied reality. That's our distinctiveness, 00:36:07.769 --> 00:36:11.989 right? It's our embodiment. I carry wrinkles 00:36:11.989 --> 00:36:15.070 that show my experience and scars that show my 00:36:15.070 --> 00:36:20.650 experience and my genetics and my color and my 00:36:20.650 --> 00:36:25.110 epigenetics and my DNA and all of that is part 00:36:25.110 --> 00:36:28.610 of the uniqueness of who I am. And when somebody 00:36:28.610 --> 00:36:32.809 comes to know me or I come to know you, All of 00:36:32.809 --> 00:36:35.130 these things become part of the wonder of who 00:36:35.130 --> 00:36:38.690 you are. So it is knowing that is the ground 00:36:38.690 --> 00:36:41.710 of being, right? It's the ground of relationship. 00:36:42.130 --> 00:36:46.530 This is why this is eternal life, to know him 00:36:46.530 --> 00:36:49.210 and the one who he sent. And that's going to 00:36:49.210 --> 00:36:52.050 be a forever thing, not just with the Father, 00:36:52.110 --> 00:36:56.130 Son, and Holy Spirit, but me with you. Because 00:36:56.130 --> 00:36:58.610 you're not going to be stagnant. You're going 00:36:58.610 --> 00:37:01.789 to continue to expand and know and create and 00:37:01.789 --> 00:37:03.690 all of these things. And if I leave you alone 00:37:03.690 --> 00:37:07.670 for 30 minutes, you've changed. And I'm going 00:37:07.670 --> 00:37:11.690 to be working to catch up. But see, the beauty 00:37:11.690 --> 00:37:16.030 of this is this involves every single human being 00:37:16.030 --> 00:37:23.489 on the planet. Every person that I meet is full 00:37:23.489 --> 00:37:27.949 of glory. whether acknowledged or not. They may 00:37:27.949 --> 00:37:32.750 be alienated from love. They may have turned 00:37:32.750 --> 00:37:35.730 their faces away, because I certainly did and 00:37:35.730 --> 00:37:41.510 do at times. They distance themselves. They cover 00:37:41.510 --> 00:37:44.469 it up with abuse and trauma or have been covered 00:37:44.469 --> 00:37:48.869 up by abuse and trauma and by their own view 00:37:48.869 --> 00:37:52.730 of themselves. All of these things obfuscate 00:37:52.730 --> 00:37:56.639 the reality of of that union of the divine and 00:37:56.639 --> 00:37:58.760 the human. There's only one human nature, and 00:37:58.760 --> 00:38:02.079 we all share that. The divine, the human, and 00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:07.139 the embodiment. And so you cannot separate those 00:38:07.139 --> 00:38:11.980 things as if any of it didn't matter. And so 00:38:11.980 --> 00:38:14.940 when I, and more and more I live in this life 00:38:14.940 --> 00:38:18.579 in the older that I get, the person in front 00:38:18.579 --> 00:38:22.139 of me is the only person in the whole world in 00:38:22.139 --> 00:38:25.800 that moment. And I guess you could call that 00:38:25.800 --> 00:38:28.159 a spiritual practice, but it's an assumption 00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:32.659 anymore for me. And so it's time to listen. It's 00:38:32.659 --> 00:38:39.219 time to, ah, I guess this could so easily be 00:38:39.219 --> 00:38:44.699 taken wrong. It's a kind of worship. You know, 00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:51.460 worth -ship. It's a recognition of the incredible. 00:38:54.200 --> 00:38:59.380 nature of the one who I get to be with or in 00:38:59.380 --> 00:39:04.460 front of or alongside or any of that. And then 00:39:04.460 --> 00:39:08.139 if you begin to see that with a magnificent theology, 00:39:08.619 --> 00:39:14.800 it pulls along an incredibly beautiful, transcendent 00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:18.900 anthropology. If you have a low theology, you're 00:39:18.900 --> 00:39:21.780 going to have a low anthropology. If God's a 00:39:21.780 --> 00:39:24.730 killer, then... your anthropology will say, well, 00:39:24.789 --> 00:39:34.130 people are killers. And on and on it goes. In 00:39:34.130 --> 00:39:36.550 the second reflection section for this episode, 00:39:36.789 --> 00:39:39.510 I wanted to take some time with something Paul 00:39:39.510 --> 00:39:42.670 just said. And that is the connection between 00:39:42.670 --> 00:39:47.429 theology and anthropology. Leave it to Paul to 00:39:47.429 --> 00:39:51.489 show just how practical and incarnational Trinitarian 00:39:51.489 --> 00:39:55.280 theology is. is for him, which of course birthed 00:39:55.280 --> 00:39:57.699 something as beautiful as the novel, The Shack. 00:39:58.480 --> 00:40:02.400 Simply put, to summarize what we were talking 00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:04.519 about and what our words were kind of dancing 00:40:04.519 --> 00:40:08.940 around, the way that we view God or capital R 00:40:08.940 --> 00:40:13.559 reality, if the God word scares you, the way 00:40:13.559 --> 00:40:16.900 we view God or reality will impact the way we 00:40:16.900 --> 00:40:20.900 view ourselves and others. Thomas Merton wrote 00:40:20.900 --> 00:40:23.780 in New Seeds of Contemplation, it's a well -known 00:40:23.780 --> 00:40:27.739 quote, our idea of God tells us more about ourselves 00:40:27.739 --> 00:40:33.079 than about him. I'll read it again. Our idea 00:40:33.079 --> 00:40:37.139 of God tells us more about ourselves than about 00:40:37.139 --> 00:40:42.539 him. And for a long time, this was on full display 00:40:42.539 --> 00:40:45.840 in my life. I ventured through life believing 00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:49.110 that I was separate from God. And that the spiritual 00:40:49.110 --> 00:40:53.690 life was all about striving and doing and trying 00:40:53.690 --> 00:40:58.829 to get close to quote unquote him. This performance 00:40:58.829 --> 00:41:04.309 -based spirituality led to exhaustion. And frankly, 00:41:05.130 --> 00:41:09.210 it led to a very low view of myself where I was 00:41:09.210 --> 00:41:11.909 always beating myself up for something that I 00:41:11.909 --> 00:41:15.320 wasn't doing or something that I was doing. thinking 00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:17.679 that that's what God would want me to do since 00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:20.079 that's what I thought God was doing as well. 00:41:20.179 --> 00:41:22.380 So you can already see how my God perception, 00:41:22.579 --> 00:41:26.400 my reality perception is affecting my own view 00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:33.139 of myself. And then this overflowed into my relationships 00:41:33.139 --> 00:41:35.940 and views of others as well because the self 00:41:35.940 --> 00:41:39.659 -judgment naturally led to judgment of others. 00:41:41.470 --> 00:41:44.969 flowing out of this theology of separation were 00:41:44.969 --> 00:41:48.710 a plethora of binaries. There were non -believers 00:41:48.710 --> 00:41:51.449 and believers. There were the lost. There were 00:41:51.449 --> 00:41:56.650 the found. And it was up to me and my Christian 00:41:56.650 --> 00:42:00.949 community to give the answers to these poor lost 00:42:00.949 --> 00:42:04.210 souls who needed our help, our witness, to show 00:42:04.210 --> 00:42:09.900 them the way. Why would I learn from someone 00:42:09.900 --> 00:42:12.920 whose belief system was different from me if 00:42:12.920 --> 00:42:15.380 I saw them as fundamentally separate from God? 00:42:15.980 --> 00:42:19.199 Why would I be curious about their story? Why 00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:22.500 would I help them to feel heard and seen, loved 00:42:22.500 --> 00:42:27.360 and accepted when I, more than anything, saw 00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:33.019 it as my job to save them? The irony, of course, 00:42:33.039 --> 00:42:35.780 is that I was absolutely miserable. But never 00:42:35.780 --> 00:42:39.179 did I make the connection that I was inviting 00:42:39.179 --> 00:42:43.360 people into that same misery in an effort to 00:42:43.360 --> 00:42:47.760 save them. Religious certainty is one addictive 00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:51.539 drug for the ego. So this paradigm shift into 00:42:51.539 --> 00:42:55.500 this theology of union, to beat ourselves up 00:42:55.500 --> 00:42:58.219 is to beat up the Christ who lives within us. 00:42:59.039 --> 00:43:02.300 To judge others is to judge the Christ who lives 00:43:02.300 --> 00:43:07.000 within them. And the Trinitarian theology that 00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:12.199 Paul is inviting us into leads to a deeper awareness 00:43:12.199 --> 00:43:15.719 of our own inerrant divine union on a personal 00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:19.599 level, as well as an awareness of our deep spiritual 00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:22.420 connection with those who may seem most different 00:43:22.420 --> 00:43:25.960 from us on the surface. For the divine is flowing 00:43:25.960 --> 00:43:29.050 through them too. whether they realize it or 00:43:29.050 --> 00:43:32.510 not, and we get to enjoy and experience the uniqueness 00:43:32.510 --> 00:43:36.010 of their own heart, mind, story, journey, whatever 00:43:36.010 --> 00:43:40.750 it may be. In fact, I've found that their beauty, 00:43:40.869 --> 00:43:43.690 their worth -ship, as Paul said, I love that, 00:43:43.849 --> 00:43:47.369 it heightens my own awareness for my own dance 00:43:47.369 --> 00:43:50.429 with God, just as it did for someone like Thomas 00:43:50.429 --> 00:43:53.090 Merton and his mystical experience at the corner 00:43:53.090 --> 00:43:55.969 of 4th and Walnut in downtown Louisville. So 00:43:55.969 --> 00:44:01.730 through this kind of theological lens, this theology 00:44:01.730 --> 00:44:05.550 of union, this Trinitarian dance, the spiritual 00:44:05.550 --> 00:44:09.630 life then is one of deepening awareness of the 00:44:09.630 --> 00:44:13.949 divine dance that we are already in. What a beautiful, 00:44:14.010 --> 00:44:18.369 liberating way to venture through life, enjoying 00:44:18.369 --> 00:44:24.170 God's presence here and now. Now back to the 00:44:24.170 --> 00:44:35.199 conversation. Yeah, if God sees you as fundamentally 00:44:35.199 --> 00:44:39.519 separate from Him, then you're probably going 00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:43.420 to venture throughout your life, as I did, separate 00:44:43.420 --> 00:44:46.579 from everything else. Yeah, me too. Thinking 00:44:46.579 --> 00:44:49.000 I'm separate from everything else. Truly, I'm 00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:52.460 already there. As my mentor told me, you're already 00:44:52.460 --> 00:44:55.579 closer than close to God. Well, somebody just 00:44:55.579 --> 00:44:58.199 said recently, you don't go to heaven because 00:44:58.199 --> 00:45:04.289 you never left. Well, I mean, you're in good 00:45:04.289 --> 00:45:07.389 company with the worship idea. I've mentioned 00:45:07.389 --> 00:45:10.409 this on the podcast before, but Merton's great 00:45:10.409 --> 00:45:13.829 conversion at the corner of 4th and Walnut in 00:45:13.829 --> 00:45:16.789 downtown Louisville where he has this incredible, 00:45:17.170 --> 00:45:20.889 just beautiful writing about feeling mysteriously 00:45:20.889 --> 00:45:23.730 connected to all these passersby around him. 00:45:23.929 --> 00:45:26.489 And then he has a great line that often gets 00:45:26.489 --> 00:45:28.670 left out, but it's something along the lines 00:45:28.670 --> 00:45:31.730 of, If we truly awaken to this, I suppose the 00:45:31.730 --> 00:45:33.869 real problem would be that we would all fall 00:45:33.869 --> 00:45:35.929 down and worship each other. You know, that's 00:45:35.929 --> 00:45:38.929 in the book of Revelation. And I use it in the 00:45:38.929 --> 00:45:43.250 sequel, that very thing. There's a scene, I think 00:45:43.250 --> 00:45:46.710 it's in Revelation 19, where John, every time 00:45:46.710 --> 00:45:50.110 he sees Jesus, he goes flat, you know, goes down. 00:45:50.550 --> 00:45:57.119 And because of the weight of seeing... through 00:45:57.119 --> 00:45:59.420 the veil rather than, you know, because he is 00:45:59.420 --> 00:46:03.980 seeing reality. And, you know, every time Jesus 00:46:03.980 --> 00:46:06.400 will go, get up, John, get up, you know. And 00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:12.019 so in this one situation in Revelation 19, he 00:46:12.019 --> 00:46:15.179 sees what he believes to be Jesus. I mean, just 00:46:15.179 --> 00:46:19.059 this character, this being that is so magnificent. 00:46:19.400 --> 00:46:23.380 Down he goes. And the being goes, John, I'm just 00:46:23.380 --> 00:46:26.440 a fellow servant with you. I mean, I'm just another 00:46:26.440 --> 00:46:31.579 human being. Get up, you know? But again, it's 00:46:31.579 --> 00:46:38.059 that weight of glory that shines everywhere. 00:46:38.420 --> 00:46:40.940 Coburn's got a song called Rumors of Glory. I 00:46:40.940 --> 00:46:43.539 just did a podcast. It probably will be Tuesday. 00:46:44.039 --> 00:46:48.659 And I called the podcast Rumors of Glory, and 00:46:48.659 --> 00:46:51.059 it touches on that. I love what you're talking 00:46:51.059 --> 00:46:56.300 about. Tell me if you would color this in in 00:46:56.300 --> 00:46:59.440 any other way, but this posture of worship you're 00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:06.019 describing, when I hear you, it's kind of an 00:47:06.019 --> 00:47:09.260 awe and a wonder for, and this goes back to the 00:47:09.260 --> 00:47:14.000 Trinity, for how your dance, your divine dance, 00:47:14.179 --> 00:47:17.119 your partnership with the divine dance is unfolding. 00:47:17.500 --> 00:47:21.500 And gosh dang, man, it is... it is so hard for 00:47:21.500 --> 00:47:24.539 me to get there some days even even when like 00:47:24.539 --> 00:47:26.599 i look into the eyes of my three -year -old or 00:47:26.599 --> 00:47:30.960 my one -year -old and they've just been you know 00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:32.559 the three -year -old hasn't been listening to 00:47:32.559 --> 00:47:34.679 you all day you've told him not to do the same 00:47:34.679 --> 00:47:38.320 dang thing a million times and and yet like i'm 00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:42.179 looking into his eyes and i'm just like oh my 00:47:42.179 --> 00:47:45.449 gosh like there is a There's so much wonder here. 00:47:45.570 --> 00:47:48.909 There's a miracle here. This person's sense of 00:47:48.909 --> 00:47:53.429 being is deepening. His assertiveness even is, 00:47:53.530 --> 00:47:57.090 you know, his sense of individuality is deepening. 00:47:57.889 --> 00:48:02.389 But I'm exhausted. And it's difficult to really 00:48:02.389 --> 00:48:06.389 take in the fact that I'm in this dance and it's 00:48:06.389 --> 00:48:08.409 unfolding right now. And that's not to beat myself 00:48:08.409 --> 00:48:11.010 up because I think the dance has room for that 00:48:11.010 --> 00:48:15.480 as well. Absolutely. Or you're facing a person 00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:22.800 who is a sex trade trafficker. I was in Switzerland 00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:30.440 two years ago. And I was there because a friend 00:48:30.440 --> 00:48:34.059 had done a... I became a friend because they'd 00:48:34.059 --> 00:48:38.800 done a documentary about sexual abuse. And that's 00:48:38.800 --> 00:48:41.099 part of my history. And so I was one of the ones 00:48:41.099 --> 00:48:43.539 interviewed for it. And I went back over there 00:48:43.539 --> 00:48:51.119 for the debut of this in, where were we, Luzon. 00:48:51.900 --> 00:48:54.579 But I also went over to baptize her 13 -year 00:48:54.579 --> 00:48:57.119 -old little girl, which is really the reason 00:48:57.119 --> 00:49:01.920 that I went. But during that, during the debut, 00:49:02.199 --> 00:49:08.300 packed house in a huge theater, we had a panel 00:49:08.300 --> 00:49:10.619 discussion at the end. And there were three women 00:49:10.619 --> 00:49:15.000 who were abuse survivors. And there was a therapist 00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:19.239 and me. And I'm the only guy, which is such an 00:49:19.239 --> 00:49:22.179 honor. I'm the only guy included in that documentary. 00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:26.739 So we were talking about this. And I had the 00:49:26.739 --> 00:49:32.139 last words. And we were talking about the recovery 00:49:32.139 --> 00:49:36.599 process and the work that it takes and the necessity 00:49:36.599 --> 00:49:38.840 of community because you cannot heal yourself. 00:49:39.420 --> 00:49:42.440 you know and uh as much as we would like to but 00:49:42.440 --> 00:49:44.739 we're made in the image of a god who's never 00:49:44.739 --> 00:49:50.940 been alone and uh and which which changes our 00:49:50.940 --> 00:49:53.159 view of my god my god why have you forsaken me 00:49:53.159 --> 00:49:57.719 that's you know that's i think that um as an 00:49:57.719 --> 00:50:00.980 aside i'll come back to luzon in a second have 00:50:00.980 --> 00:50:03.900 to remind me maybe but uh rabbit trails i love 00:50:03.900 --> 00:50:10.099 them the um That cry of dereliction is the cry 00:50:10.099 --> 00:50:13.360 of humanity who don't know they're included. 00:50:14.880 --> 00:50:18.500 Jesus had to assume that, right? To me, this 00:50:18.500 --> 00:50:23.239 is where Gethsemane, what that tussle was really 00:50:23.239 --> 00:50:30.260 about. It wasn't about Jesus having a will that 00:50:30.260 --> 00:50:36.309 was contrary to the Father. It was his... cry 00:50:36.309 --> 00:50:44.190 of, I don't want to enter into the sense of not 00:50:44.190 --> 00:50:48.829 being aware of that union. You know, I don't 00:50:48.829 --> 00:50:51.510 want to feel what it's like to not have your 00:50:51.510 --> 00:50:58.050 sense of presence and comfort and love, you know, 00:50:58.050 --> 00:51:03.570 which he has always known, always, everlastingly. 00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:13.539 And now to assume all of our destruction, it's 00:51:13.539 --> 00:51:16.219 necessary to assume our sense of separation. 00:51:17.659 --> 00:51:21.320 And I think that's if there's any other way. 00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:27.559 And so his cry is because, I can't sense you. 00:51:28.380 --> 00:51:37.829 Yes. I can't feel you. I can't hear you. I can't 00:51:37.829 --> 00:51:46.449 see you. But I know you. And Psalm 22 goes on, 00:51:46.449 --> 00:51:49.369 you know. But you do not despise the affliction 00:51:49.369 --> 00:51:51.670 of the afflicted, nor will you turn your face 00:51:51.670 --> 00:51:58.610 from him. And when he cries, you'll hear. And 00:51:58.610 --> 00:52:09.429 he says, I know you. And I trust you. And that's 00:52:09.429 --> 00:52:16.929 the cry. It's my cry. I've been there, and he 00:52:16.929 --> 00:52:23.550 took my being there onto himself in order to 00:52:23.550 --> 00:52:34.269 destroy its power. And, you know, this... thing 00:52:34.269 --> 00:52:37.070 about aloneness and separation i mean that's 00:52:37.070 --> 00:52:39.829 the that's where the fall first really took place 00:52:39.829 --> 00:52:45.989 it wasn't in it wasn't in uh grab a clement it 00:52:45.989 --> 00:52:52.610 wasn't in uh the scene with the fruit where we 00:52:52.610 --> 00:52:54.570 always think that's the fall no the fall has 00:52:54.570 --> 00:52:57.449 already happened yeah before she even showed 00:52:57.449 --> 00:53:02.309 up eve isha and uh it was the first not good 00:53:02.309 --> 00:53:05.260 it's not good that The man being a separation. 00:53:06.579 --> 00:53:10.239 Is that how you would kind of describe the fall? 00:53:10.420 --> 00:53:16.280 Is this... A denial. This belief in a lie that 00:53:16.280 --> 00:53:19.199 we are separate. Absolutely. And the construction 00:53:19.199 --> 00:53:22.139 in the Hebrew says that. It's not good. It's 00:53:22.139 --> 00:53:25.639 not like, oh, we screwed up and forgot to give 00:53:25.639 --> 00:53:28.900 him a companion. It wasn't like that. It was, 00:53:28.900 --> 00:53:33.659 he's turned his face away. That's not good. Because 00:53:33.659 --> 00:53:37.219 it's the first not good. So the not good cannot 00:53:37.219 --> 00:53:42.480 originate in God. He's not saying, oh, it's not 00:53:42.480 --> 00:53:47.019 good. We missed this piece. It's like, no. And 00:53:47.019 --> 00:53:50.679 Job says, don't be like Adam who hid the iniquity 00:53:50.679 --> 00:53:56.840 in his heart. And so that's the not good. That's 00:53:56.840 --> 00:54:00.219 the sense of separation. That's the introduction 00:54:00.219 --> 00:54:04.920 of the lie of separation. Yeah. And out of that, 00:54:04.920 --> 00:54:07.699 you know, you turn your face away from God. You 00:54:07.699 --> 00:54:10.519 put your back to the light and you cast your 00:54:10.519 --> 00:54:12.920 own shadow through which then you see everything. 00:54:14.139 --> 00:54:16.599 Even the character and nature of God. And that 00:54:16.599 --> 00:54:21.000 was the accusation that Adam makes. It's your 00:54:21.000 --> 00:54:25.480 fault. You did this. The woman you gave me after 00:54:25.480 --> 00:54:31.340 he sets her up to take the fall. He gets confronted, 00:54:31.380 --> 00:54:36.639 and his response is one of accusation. He is 00:54:36.639 --> 00:54:38.900 not a believer in the goodness of God at that 00:54:38.900 --> 00:54:44.019 point, and in the relationship of love that is 00:54:44.019 --> 00:54:50.099 his. He's denied relationality and embraced separation. 00:54:50.940 --> 00:54:53.400 Yeah, you said something earlier. You said something 00:54:53.400 --> 00:54:57.559 along the lines of the spiritual life. One of 00:54:57.559 --> 00:54:59.599 the aspects of the spiritual life is to distance 00:54:59.599 --> 00:55:04.079 ourselves from the idea of separation. Yeah. 00:55:04.239 --> 00:55:11.119 How does one begin to do that? Oh, it is so woven 00:55:11.119 --> 00:55:14.659 into our indoctrination and the toxicity of a 00:55:14.659 --> 00:55:19.139 lot of our religious. upbringings. Our culture 00:55:19.139 --> 00:55:21.119 as well. Oh, our culture is all about it. You're 00:55:21.119 --> 00:55:25.119 never there, never be content, you always have 00:55:25.119 --> 00:55:27.940 to press forward to the next thing. Yes. And 00:55:27.940 --> 00:55:31.980 so our songs, our hymns, our worship songs, all 00:55:31.980 --> 00:55:36.460 of that are implicitly, most of the time, songs 00:55:36.460 --> 00:55:40.679 of separation. They're the pagan ideas that... 00:55:40.989 --> 00:55:44.130 You know, we beat ourselves up enough that God 00:55:44.130 --> 00:55:46.389 will then feel sorry enough to come visit us. 00:55:46.489 --> 00:55:49.690 You know, it's always about God coming from somewhere 00:55:49.690 --> 00:55:53.630 else. Augustine, who I have a bunch of problems 00:55:53.630 --> 00:55:58.190 with, he's sort of the father of Western evangelical 00:55:58.190 --> 00:56:02.690 theology. Western, as Baxter Kruger would say, 00:56:02.769 --> 00:56:08.369 the Latin West. But he says some beautiful things 00:56:08.369 --> 00:56:12.809 once in a while. And one of them is talking about 00:56:12.809 --> 00:56:17.869 the ascension. He departed from our sight so 00:56:17.869 --> 00:56:21.630 that we might return to our hearts and find him 00:56:21.630 --> 00:56:27.809 there. Behold, he's gone, but look here. Right? 00:56:28.150 --> 00:56:31.590 That's part of the work of denying separation. 00:56:32.389 --> 00:56:35.070 Now, it probably only lasted about five minutes 00:56:35.070 --> 00:56:38.349 for Augustine, but it was all about separation. 00:56:39.179 --> 00:56:41.760 And I mean, how can, not Calvin, Luther, whatever, 00:56:41.880 --> 00:56:46.659 how can you kill people and accept that you believe 00:56:46.659 --> 00:56:51.539 in separation? So it's wound into us. We have 00:56:51.539 --> 00:56:56.780 our prayers are loaded with separation. I was 00:56:56.780 --> 00:57:00.679 with a band. They asked me to come and just hang 00:57:00.679 --> 00:57:04.119 out with them for a day. Young people, beautiful 00:57:04.119 --> 00:57:07.510 young people. And they said, we're going to have 00:57:07.510 --> 00:57:08.929 a time of prayer. You want to be a part of it? 00:57:09.869 --> 00:57:14.190 Absolutely. And so the first young brother who 00:57:14.190 --> 00:57:20.010 starts to pray, he is begging God, you know, 00:57:20.030 --> 00:57:23.869 to bring blessing, to come down to all of this. 00:57:24.170 --> 00:57:30.329 And I finally said, stop, just stop. And I showed 00:57:30.329 --> 00:57:34.829 them or talked to them with the kindness of the 00:57:34.829 --> 00:57:37.940 Holy Spirit. And go like, you're praying for 00:57:37.940 --> 00:57:44.760 something that you already have. Why? Do you 00:57:44.760 --> 00:57:49.239 actually think that God is not here? Do you actually 00:57:49.239 --> 00:57:52.420 believe that? That you're actually going to convince 00:57:52.420 --> 00:57:56.500 him to come do something for you? No, this is 00:57:56.500 --> 00:57:59.059 not a God who can be served by human hands as 00:57:59.059 --> 00:58:02.880 if he needed anything. This is not about ever 00:58:02.880 --> 00:58:06.429 doing anything. Great for God. And God will never 00:58:06.429 --> 00:58:08.909 use a human being because he will never use, 00:58:09.130 --> 00:58:11.769 the son will not use the father and the father 00:58:11.769 --> 00:58:14.590 will not use the son. It's not part of the reality 00:58:14.590 --> 00:58:19.570 of true authentic relationship. Yeah, it's mutuality. 00:58:19.570 --> 00:58:23.210 It's relational. Yeah, it's flowing out of union. 00:58:23.230 --> 00:58:26.489 It is other -centered, self -giving, co -suffering, 00:58:26.570 --> 00:58:31.179 self -sacrificial love. Yeah. And you see in 00:58:31.179 --> 00:58:33.760 a mom with their baby and what you see in Jesus 00:58:33.760 --> 00:58:37.219 on the cross. I mean, that's the most beautiful 00:58:37.219 --> 00:58:42.699 picture of submission as an expression of love. 00:58:43.719 --> 00:58:45.659 You're never getting invited back to that prayer 00:58:45.659 --> 00:58:52.019 group again. They just bawled. It's a relief. 00:58:52.360 --> 00:58:57.260 It is such a relief to begin to awaken to the 00:58:57.260 --> 00:59:01.239 reality that you are not separate. Even if you 00:59:01.239 --> 00:59:09.519 feel separate. Even if you feel alone. Fundamentally, 00:59:09.539 --> 00:59:12.280 and this goes back to a metaphysics, this goes 00:59:12.280 --> 00:59:17.320 back to an ontology. Fundamentally, You're not 00:59:17.320 --> 00:59:20.500 separate. You're in the dance. Yeah. Yeah. Let's 00:59:20.500 --> 00:59:23.159 become more aware of it. Yeah. And the kindness. 00:59:23.219 --> 00:59:26.360 Think about the kindness of God who doesn't force 00:59:26.360 --> 00:59:32.340 us to see. Yeah. Yeah. But loves us moment by 00:59:32.340 --> 00:59:37.199 moment, knowing with absolute clarity the truth 00:59:37.199 --> 00:59:41.860 of who we are when we don't. And a phrase that 00:59:41.860 --> 00:59:46.880 I use in the shack and elsewhere is that... God 00:59:46.880 --> 00:59:49.840 will not pull us through the bars of the prison 00:59:49.840 --> 00:59:55.659 we call home, but go into the prison, live with 00:59:55.659 --> 01:00:01.500 us there until we're ready to walk out the door 01:00:01.500 --> 01:00:05.179 that's never been locked to begin with. That's 01:00:05.179 --> 01:00:07.780 the kindness. That's the gentleness. That's the 01:00:07.780 --> 01:00:12.019 confrontation too. There's confrontation in love, 01:00:12.239 --> 01:00:18.659 but it's done. It's known by the recipient that 01:00:18.659 --> 01:00:22.099 at a core level that it was love. That's Jesus 01:00:22.099 --> 01:00:26.139 and the Pharisees and Nicodemus listening and 01:00:26.139 --> 01:00:29.440 knowing he has been loved, not taking the risk 01:00:29.440 --> 01:00:31.460 of coming out of his prison, but going to see 01:00:31.460 --> 01:00:34.519 Jesus in the middle of the night. Is it, when 01:00:34.519 --> 01:00:37.119 it comes to, and I want to get back to the documentary 01:00:37.119 --> 01:00:40.059 as well, because you did want me to remind you 01:00:40.059 --> 01:00:45.440 about that. But when it comes to... The spiritual 01:00:45.440 --> 01:00:49.340 life being one of distancing ourselves from the 01:00:49.340 --> 01:00:57.059 idea of separation. Is one aspect of this spiritual 01:00:57.059 --> 01:00:59.460 growth, I don't even like the word growth because 01:00:59.460 --> 01:01:04.679 growth sounds like you're not there yet. But 01:01:04.679 --> 01:01:07.880 I guess I use it in a sense of your awareness 01:01:07.880 --> 01:01:12.409 is deepening. That's the growth. Yeah, your awareness 01:01:12.409 --> 01:01:16.949 of what is already true is deepening. For me, 01:01:16.949 --> 01:01:20.889 at least, a lot of it has come down to becoming 01:01:20.889 --> 01:01:27.110 hyper aware of my own thoughts. So when those 01:01:27.110 --> 01:01:35.130 lies of separation come in, you can kind of slowly 01:01:35.130 --> 01:01:38.409 over time, and I think neuroscience would back 01:01:38.409 --> 01:01:41.849 this up, slowly over time, you can kind of, Changing 01:01:41.849 --> 01:01:46.070 the wire. Yeah. And be like, no, I'm like, screw 01:01:46.070 --> 01:01:49.230 you. Like, I'm not I'm not separate. You know, 01:01:49.269 --> 01:01:53.250 like you're telling me false self, like shadow, 01:01:53.409 --> 01:01:55.670 whatever word you want to use. It's like you're 01:01:55.670 --> 01:01:57.650 telling me that I need to do all these things 01:01:57.650 --> 01:02:00.210 to feel some sense of wholeness and completeness. 01:02:00.949 --> 01:02:04.309 And it's all it's right there in front of me 01:02:04.309 --> 01:02:09.510 already. And it is work. I mean, this to be able 01:02:09.510 --> 01:02:15.949 to hear. To be able to hear truth speak to us. 01:02:16.030 --> 01:02:21.329 You know, the truth is Jesus. And speak to us 01:02:21.329 --> 01:02:28.349 in love. And to begin to incrementally apprehend 01:02:28.349 --> 01:02:31.409 it. And it is an incremental process. It's just, 01:02:31.449 --> 01:02:35.409 we would love quick fixes, but that's not... 01:02:35.409 --> 01:02:43.159 The Holy Spirit knows us so well. That the Holy 01:02:43.159 --> 01:02:46.480 Spirit is the only one that can move us in the 01:02:46.480 --> 01:02:51.460 direction of wholeness without damaging us. And 01:02:51.460 --> 01:02:58.280 we want quick fixes. Because why? Because we 01:02:58.280 --> 01:03:03.559 think that if we were just fixed, then the things 01:03:03.559 --> 01:03:06.800 that we would want would be more accessible to 01:03:06.800 --> 01:03:10.880 us. Rather than living moment by moment in response. 01:03:11.579 --> 01:03:17.800 to the world as it comes to us. And then our 01:03:17.800 --> 01:03:22.280 healing becomes a means to an end. And God doesn't 01:03:22.280 --> 01:03:25.920 do that. God never uses anything as a means to 01:03:25.920 --> 01:03:29.559 an end. He's a redeeming genius who shows up 01:03:29.559 --> 01:03:32.920 in what has been brought to the table and turns 01:03:32.920 --> 01:03:40.539 it into bread and wine. In the final reflection 01:03:40.539 --> 01:03:43.519 segment of this episode, I wanted to discuss 01:03:43.519 --> 01:03:47.179 a theme that Paul keeps returning to, this notion 01:03:47.179 --> 01:03:50.699 of presence and awareness within the divine dance 01:03:50.699 --> 01:03:54.360 that each of us are already in. He said at one 01:03:54.360 --> 01:03:57.019 point that all of eternity had brought him to 01:03:57.019 --> 01:03:59.099 this moment that the two of us were living in, 01:03:59.179 --> 01:04:02.059 having this rich conversation about the Trinity 01:04:02.059 --> 01:04:05.199 together. At another point, he said that, quote, 01:04:05.320 --> 01:04:07.679 you don't really go to heaven because you've 01:04:07.679 --> 01:04:10.940 never left. end quote. I think he said that a 01:04:10.940 --> 01:04:16.639 friend shared that with him. And I do recognize, 01:04:16.739 --> 01:04:18.940 by the way, that this mystical language, it may 01:04:18.940 --> 01:04:22.280 sound jarring or even provocative, but in my 01:04:22.280 --> 01:04:26.239 view, it's exactly how St. Francis of Assisi 01:04:26.239 --> 01:04:30.179 moved about the world as he followed Christ. 01:04:31.599 --> 01:04:36.860 When we read St. Francis of Assisi's biographies, 01:04:36.940 --> 01:04:42.420 we really get the sense that he found God everywhere. 01:04:42.880 --> 01:04:47.900 And in this mode of presence and awareness that 01:04:47.900 --> 01:04:51.579 probably flowed out of his rich life of prayer 01:04:51.579 --> 01:04:56.659 and contemplation, he experienced heaven. God's 01:04:56.659 --> 01:05:00.599 goodness. And he helped others to enjoy the fountain 01:05:00.599 --> 01:05:02.900 of love and grace that was flowing into their 01:05:02.900 --> 01:05:05.280 lives as well, you know, through creation and 01:05:05.280 --> 01:05:08.960 even through the most unassuming people and places. 01:05:10.000 --> 01:05:14.320 I'll conclude this reflection segment with this 01:05:14.320 --> 01:05:18.420 quote from Paul's beautiful book, Lies We Believe 01:05:18.420 --> 01:05:24.460 About God. And he writes, quote, Instead of a 01:05:24.460 --> 01:05:28.599 list of priorities, Jesus introduced us to something 01:05:28.599 --> 01:05:33.179 completely different, a moving, dynamic, living 01:05:33.179 --> 01:05:37.619 relationship in which God is not first, but central. 01:05:38.099 --> 01:05:42.420 This is not a flow chart, but rather a mobile, 01:05:42.679 --> 01:05:46.739 where everything is moving and changing as our 01:05:46.739 --> 01:05:50.539 choices and participation are woven inside the 01:05:50.539 --> 01:05:55.079 activity of the Holy Spirit. Lists are about 01:05:55.079 --> 01:05:59.260 control and performance. God is about adventure 01:05:59.260 --> 01:06:05.519 and trust. Now back to the final part of our 01:06:05.519 --> 01:06:14.519 conversation. Yeah. He'll go into the prison 01:06:14.519 --> 01:06:17.159 that you call home. Like you said. Yeah. Yeah. 01:06:17.280 --> 01:06:21.829 Yeah. The dance can even unfold. In our own prisons 01:06:21.829 --> 01:06:25.250 that we construct for ourselves. Yeah. Well, 01:06:25.349 --> 01:06:28.750 that's the beauty of union, right? Who's in there 01:06:28.750 --> 01:06:31.230 with us? It's always the Father, Son, and the 01:06:31.230 --> 01:06:34.909 Holy Spirit. Yeah. And that's part of filling 01:06:34.909 --> 01:06:37.869 up the sufferings of Christ, yeah. He continues 01:06:37.869 --> 01:06:42.010 to suffer in us in the journey of our own maturing 01:06:42.010 --> 01:06:49.000 and never is disappointed, griefed. You know, 01:06:49.039 --> 01:06:52.880 God grieves, but is never disappointed. Because 01:06:52.880 --> 01:06:55.079 to be disappointed, God would have to have an 01:06:55.079 --> 01:07:00.039 expectation. And expectation means that you don't 01:07:00.039 --> 01:07:04.760 know something. Right? And God knows. Knows us 01:07:04.760 --> 01:07:09.719 thoroughly and completely. And so we're never 01:07:09.719 --> 01:07:11.960 a disappointment. Now, we are a disappointment 01:07:11.960 --> 01:07:14.019 to ourselves because of expectations that we 01:07:14.019 --> 01:07:15.500 should have been somewhere we're not and all 01:07:15.500 --> 01:07:17.559 that kind of stuff, and then condemn ourselves 01:07:17.559 --> 01:07:20.260 and shame ourselves and do all that kind of stuff. 01:07:20.320 --> 01:07:22.920 But even dealing with that is slow and incremental 01:07:22.920 --> 01:07:27.739 and necessary. And we have to learn not to divide 01:07:27.739 --> 01:07:32.239 and separate ourselves more. That's why I try 01:07:32.239 --> 01:07:36.539 to be very careful about my heritage in terms 01:07:36.539 --> 01:07:40.760 of evangelicalism. I'm not wild about the system 01:07:40.760 --> 01:07:45.139 of it, but I'm wild about the people that inhabit 01:07:45.139 --> 01:07:52.519 that system. And they are as incredible as any 01:07:52.519 --> 01:07:57.440 one that we've mentioned or talked about. They're 01:07:57.440 --> 01:08:01.320 these eternal beings indwelt by the Father, Son, 01:08:01.400 --> 01:08:05.920 and Holy Spirit. And so we don't need any more 01:08:05.920 --> 01:08:08.929 divisions. else thing we need. And so let's not 01:08:08.929 --> 01:08:11.250 create new ones because we've had some kind of 01:08:11.250 --> 01:08:14.889 an experience with God, you know, and suddenly 01:08:14.889 --> 01:08:19.590 it's us and them again. There is no us and them. 01:08:20.409 --> 01:08:22.409 That's the tree of the knowledge of good and 01:08:22.409 --> 01:08:25.350 evil, not the tree of life. But in terms of the 01:08:25.350 --> 01:08:27.350 ubiquitous work, I mean, we've been eating of 01:08:27.350 --> 01:08:28.949 the tree of the knowledge of good and evil from 01:08:28.949 --> 01:08:32.170 the time we were first aware. You know, there's 01:08:32.170 --> 01:08:34.989 always been, yes, I declare the right and the 01:08:34.989 --> 01:08:40.350 wrong. And, you know, I will break relationship 01:08:40.350 --> 01:08:44.689 because I'm right. You know, I will divide because 01:08:44.689 --> 01:08:48.189 I'm right and you're wrong. So ideology is always 01:08:48.189 --> 01:08:50.810 tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Yeah. 01:08:50.850 --> 01:08:54.029 Well, you were saying something earlier about 01:08:54.029 --> 01:08:56.430 the documentary that you were a part of and then 01:08:56.430 --> 01:08:58.890 you were on a panel. Do you want to finish that 01:08:58.890 --> 01:09:05.710 story? Yeah. So I was the last word. And I stood 01:09:05.710 --> 01:09:07.710 up and I faced the audience and I said, you know, 01:09:07.729 --> 01:09:13.930 statistically, there is one out of four of you 01:09:13.930 --> 01:09:16.109 women have been sexually abused. One out of six 01:09:16.109 --> 01:09:18.770 of you men has been sexually abused. In this 01:09:18.770 --> 01:09:21.770 room, there are a number of perpetrators. And 01:09:21.770 --> 01:09:24.670 I want to speak to the perpetrators because they 01:09:24.670 --> 01:09:27.430 hadn't been addressed the entire time. And I 01:09:27.430 --> 01:09:30.430 want to know, I want you to know you are absolutely 01:09:30.430 --> 01:09:35.109 loved, that you are... as worthy as anyone else 01:09:35.109 --> 01:09:40.409 in this room. And I want you to know that as 01:09:40.409 --> 01:09:45.189 you descend the elevator to the bottom, you can 01:09:45.189 --> 01:09:48.550 get off that elevator at any time, but you're 01:09:48.550 --> 01:09:50.430 going to have to take the risk of becoming a 01:09:50.430 --> 01:09:53.510 truth teller and inviting community and relationship 01:09:53.510 --> 01:09:56.909 into the journey that God wants to take you on 01:09:56.909 --> 01:10:03.590 in terms of your healing. And I didn't, I didn't 01:10:03.590 --> 01:10:08.649 mean that little segue to be as powerful as it 01:10:08.649 --> 01:10:12.789 turned out to be. But it did, because it was 01:10:12.789 --> 01:10:16.689 a denial of separation, even in that room, when 01:10:16.689 --> 01:10:19.310 it wasn't a denial of the kind of damage that 01:10:19.310 --> 01:10:24.489 has been done. Yeah. It's not sweeping anything 01:10:24.489 --> 01:10:30.310 under the rug, but it is an offer to the prodigal 01:10:30.310 --> 01:10:36.760 son to come home. And it's on the basis of the 01:10:36.760 --> 01:10:40.500 magnificence that dwells within that person who 01:10:40.500 --> 01:10:44.899 perpetrates, in which Jesus is profoundly involved, 01:10:45.159 --> 01:10:51.279 you know, the grief and the losses and the suffering. 01:10:53.100 --> 01:10:56.140 Yeah, and their own sense of separateness that 01:10:56.140 --> 01:11:00.640 is leading to destruction. Totally, totally, 01:11:00.939 --> 01:11:05.270 you know. So anyway, that's what that was about. 01:11:05.430 --> 01:11:07.390 Yeah, that's beautiful. I appreciate you sharing 01:11:07.390 --> 01:11:11.029 that. Um, it's, it's challenging stuff. I mean, 01:11:11.029 --> 01:11:17.670 it's, um, but there's, in my mind, it's almost 01:11:17.670 --> 01:11:24.810 as if they're like shame only snowballs and in 01:11:24.810 --> 01:11:29.350 love. Love is like the only way. Love and acceptance 01:11:29.350 --> 01:11:31.829 is the only way. That can come with boundaries. 01:11:31.989 --> 01:11:36.229 That can come with, but I mean, it is the only 01:11:36.229 --> 01:11:40.810 path toward an awareness that you are no longer 01:11:40.810 --> 01:11:43.649 separate. Yeah. I think boundary is too slick 01:11:43.649 --> 01:11:46.289 a word sometimes. I think it's a word for love. 01:11:47.670 --> 01:11:50.350 I don't let my kids run, the little ones run 01:11:50.350 --> 01:11:52.369 out into the street because I have boundaries. 01:11:52.449 --> 01:11:55.670 I love them. So I don't let them run out into 01:11:55.670 --> 01:12:01.479 the street. Yeah. And so I understand it. I understand 01:12:01.479 --> 01:12:06.119 the idea of it. But the idea of boundaries oftentimes 01:12:06.119 --> 01:12:09.899 exists because it's easier than to actually love 01:12:09.899 --> 01:12:13.680 the person. Yep. That's so true. That is so true. 01:12:13.880 --> 01:12:16.640 Yeah. That's why evangelicals, you know, we needed 01:12:16.640 --> 01:12:22.939 hell. Because hell was an easier road to send 01:12:22.939 --> 01:12:27.420 people down than to actually love them. You know, 01:12:27.439 --> 01:12:29.979 we needed a place so that we could categorize 01:12:29.979 --> 01:12:36.239 people as irreparable and irredeemable. And, 01:12:36.239 --> 01:12:41.779 you know, and I believe in hell, but not like 01:12:41.779 --> 01:12:44.880 that. Yeah. I believe the hell of your own choices. 01:12:44.920 --> 01:12:47.500 I believe that the fire of God's love that is 01:12:47.500 --> 01:12:51.100 absolutely determined to burn everything in us 01:12:51.100 --> 01:12:54.270 away that is not of love's kind. Anything that 01:12:54.270 --> 01:12:56.609 is contrary to the nature of that union and that 01:12:56.609 --> 01:12:59.470 indwelling. You're going to have to say that 01:12:59.470 --> 01:13:02.569 one again. I've heard you say it before, and 01:13:02.569 --> 01:13:07.869 it's just as profound every time. Yeah. The basic 01:13:07.869 --> 01:13:11.710 idea is the burning bush, right? That Moses turned 01:13:11.710 --> 01:13:13.569 aside from because he couldn't believe what he 01:13:13.569 --> 01:13:17.149 was seeing. He was seeing a bush in which all 01:13:17.149 --> 01:13:19.890 the dead wood was being burned away, exposing 01:13:19.890 --> 01:13:23.279 only that which was living. Well, guess what? 01:13:23.859 --> 01:13:26.779 God is a consuming fire. Where does the consuming 01:13:26.779 --> 01:13:30.340 fire live? In me. For what purpose? To burn away 01:13:30.340 --> 01:13:34.140 all the dead wood so that everything that is 01:13:34.140 --> 01:13:38.079 fully human, fully alive, only of love's kind, 01:13:38.260 --> 01:13:41.840 will be exposed. Because only in that is our 01:13:41.840 --> 01:13:45.340 complete freedom, which is the intention of God, 01:13:45.460 --> 01:13:50.090 determination of God, is to free us. And not 01:13:50.090 --> 01:13:53.789 to then separate, to free us to experience the 01:13:53.789 --> 01:13:56.609 union that is already ours and has always been. 01:13:58.930 --> 01:14:01.470 Well, Paul, I think that is a great place to 01:14:01.470 --> 01:14:03.149 conclude. Do you have anything else that you 01:14:03.149 --> 01:14:07.029 want to say? Nope. Thank you for your time. Yeah, 01:14:07.029 --> 01:14:11.029 this was a joy. Totally a joy, Stephen. I love 01:14:11.029 --> 01:14:14.449 this. I love this. Every time I learn something. 01:14:15.029 --> 01:14:23.699 And so thank you. Once again, that was William 01:14:23.699 --> 01:14:28.739 Paul Young, author of The Shack, Eve, Crossroads, 01:14:28.760 --> 01:14:33.260 and Lies We Believe About God. I encourage you 01:14:33.260 --> 01:14:35.920 to check out the Paul Young Podcast on Apple 01:14:35.920 --> 01:14:39.579 Podcasts or Spotify. And I've linked to his work, 01:14:39.579 --> 01:14:42.239 his podcast, and some of his other media appearances 01:14:42.239 --> 01:14:45.760 in the show notes of this episode. Simply visit 01:14:45.760 --> 01:14:47.979 the link in the description of this episode on 01:14:47.979 --> 01:14:51.220 whatever platform you're listening to this podcast. 01:14:51.880 --> 01:14:55.659 A huge thanks to Father Cyprian Concilio for 01:14:55.659 --> 01:14:58.340 providing the intro and outro music for this 01:14:58.340 --> 01:15:01.810 episode. and to Paul for joining me on Off the 01:15:01.810 --> 01:15:09.050 Page. May you, may we, become more aware of our 01:15:09.050 --> 01:15:12.489 own union with Christ, an unfolding dance with 01:15:12.489 --> 01:15:18.210 the Trinity today and this week. This is Stephen 01:15:18.210 --> 01:15:28.170 Copeland signing off. Peace and all good. tenderly 01:15:28.170 --> 01:15:29.670 speak to your heart.