Welcome to Off the Page, and I'm Stephen Copeland.
We live in a concerning age. Never in my life
has it been more commonplace to caricature, demonize,
label, cheapen, and overall completely neglect
the God -given humanity of a person one disagrees
with. In fact, our social media algorithms reward
this kind of divisive behavior. TV ratings even
thrive on conflict and hyperbole. The better
the fear monger, the more successful the politician.
Long gone seem the days of decency and civility.
This episode's guest is the brilliant Chloe Valdory.
Chloe has written for The New York Times, The
Atlantic, The Wall Street Journal, and has appeared
on numerous shows and podcasts all across the
political spectrum, from Real Time with Bill
Maher to Honestly with Barry Weiss to the Jordan
Peterson podcast to The Megyn Kelly Show. I'd
consider Chloe to be a public intellectual and
thought leader, and her lectures and interviews
have received millions of views across the Internet.
I personally stumbled upon Chloe's work back
in 2020 when the divisive rhetoric I'm describing
had arguably reached its peak, and I was becoming
increasingly exhausted. Even some churches and
religious communities I found were playing this
cruel game, positioning their own morality as
supreme and stifling compassion and curiosity
for the person whose political ideology they
did not understand. In Chloe, I found a brilliant,
nuanced thinker who, while engaging in extremely
difficult public conversations, strived to root
everything that she did in love and radical curiosity.
She is the founder of the Theory of Enchantment,
the focus of today's conversation, a depolarization
organization that helps cultivate respectful
dialogue and compassion in some of our most divided
and polarized spaces today. Theory of Enchantment
has three expansive and profound principles that
can help bring healing to our many divisions
today, and we dissect each principle in this
fun and free -flowing conversation. This is a
unique episode. Chloe is not a Catholic or a
Franciscan, but her three principles of Theory
of Enchantment have always reminded me of and,
in fact, take me deeper into the Franciscan way.
Chloe, like Francis of Assisi, is a peacemaker,
and she has created a framework that has a way
of uniting seeming opposites and making way for
the other to become our greatest teacher. These
principles can help bring healing to our divisions
and our relationships, as well as personal integration.
This was one of the most, I'd say, mystical conversations
I've had on this podcast, and it gets incredibly
deep and even, I would say, beautifully dizzying
at times. It was a lot of fun, and I encourage
you to subscribe to Chloe's Substack or visit
theoryofenchantment .com to learn more about
the incredible work she's doing. Be on the lookout.
out as well for my piece on her organization
in a future issue of St. Anthony Messenger. This
will be part of our Rebuild God's Church series,
which seeks to tell the stories of people, organizations,
ministries who are doing healing work in the
world. Once again, no reflection segments this
episode, though I do invite you to take time
with the three principles we discuss and consider
what they may mean to you and your community.
find out. Chloe is absolutely profound. So as
always, don't hesitate to hit pause and really
sit and digest with something that the guest
has said. I hope you enjoy this conversation
as much as I did. So without further ado, here
is Chloe Valdory. Chloe Valdory, welcome to Off
the Page. Thank you so much for having me, Stephen.
I'm so grateful to be in conversation with you.
Yeah, so I know you've been asked this question
a thousand times, but I think it'd be helpful
for our listeners to hear it from you. What is
Theory of Enchantment and why did you start this
organization? So I created Theory of Enchantment
back in 2015. Originally, it was actually my
attempt to come up with a framework rooted in
love in response to the Israeli -Palestinian
conflict. I studied the Israeli -Palestinian
conflict in college. I am very much attached
and deeply embedded to the Jewish community.
So I've been to Israel many times. I had been
to Israel many times and hosted many Israeli
speakers on my campus at the University of New
Orleans. And I was very much perplexed by the
challenge of anti -Semitism. and did a lot of
activism trying to combat anti -Semitism in college.
But the activism that I did, while it was instructive,
it was lacking an intentional rooting in love.
And so I created the Theory of Enchantment after
I graduated. I'm from New Orleans. I moved to
New York, got a job at the Wall Street Journal,
was mentored by Brett Stevens, and under that
mentorship developed a thesis that I called Theory
of Enchantment. that attempted to create these
protocols, really, for speaking about Israelis
and Palestinians. So the first protocol was treat
Israelis and Palestinians like human beings,
not political abstractions. The second protocol
was criticize to uplift and empower, never to
tear down or destroy. And the third protocol
was root everything you do in love and compassion.
So I developed this and I... And I worked for
a Jewish nonprofit based in Jerusalem called
Open Door Media, which provided Israel education
through film. And I lectured around the world,
really, on this new framework. And I did that
for two years. It was amazing. And then afterwards,
I went independent. And I was seeking advice
from a lot of people, a lot of mentors, what
to do next. And they were very much... Telling
me, you know, this doesn't just apply to Israel
-Palestine, it applies universally, it applies
to social -emotional learning for high school
students, it applies to, you know, diversity
and inclusion in the United States. So why don't
you think of taking these three principles or
protocols and transforming them into a full course?
So that's what I did. I created a full course,
which is a really amazing course. I'm actually
very proud of it. It takes the... great gifts
of our pop culture, of contemporary pop culture.
It takes, you know, hip hop references and Black
Panther and Disney movies and John Mayer songs
and all of these things, all these rich things,
these rich cultural archives and creates this
kind of what is it, apprenticeship for people
to discover their being and to love their being
deeply for the purposes of not projecting their
insecurities onto others, which I believe is
the root of bigotry, is the seed of bigotry.
And so I did that for a number of years, or I
actually did that for a couple of months. I created
the course. I spoke at a few different high schools
about the course. This was around 2019, 2018.
And then in 2020, I was sort of discovered by
podcasters and companies looking for an alternative
framework. to mainstream approaches to DEI. So
not the Ibram X. Kendi model, for those of you
who may be familiar with how to be an anti -racist,
right? Theory of Enchantment was set up or positioned
as an alternative to that. It was positioned
as an alternative to white fragility from Robert
D 'Angelo's approach. And that is how most people
who know of me have heard of me. Is that weird
for you at all? You know, like Theory of Enchantment
began with this very close connection with the
Israel -Palestine conflict. And then yet a lot
of people have heard of you during this anti
-racist boom. What's that journey been like for
you? That's a really great question. I think,
you know. At first, it was weird, maybe. I think
it was such a whirlwind, though, that I didn't
really pause to clock it. It's actually weird
now because I'm coming back or I'm returning
to the Israel -Palestine conversation. I'm returning
to the Black -Jewish conversation. I'm returning
to that frequency, to that sound bowl, if you
will. But I think ultimately all of these things
have always been dancing with each other anyway.
And as long as my sense of reality was disjointed,
as long as my sense of reality is disjointed,
as long as I perceive myself as this categorical,
individual, atomized being that's just pressing
something and then something happens, as opposed
to the fact that I am fundamentally other, which
means that I am shaped and informed. you know
i exist in a web of mutual relations that shape
and inform me not the other way around i don't
i shape it less than it shapes me so um but it's
still weird at times yes to answer your question
yeah well it's very interesting because those
three principles from theory of enchantment uh
they're They strike such a universal chord that
you've found, correct me if I'm wrong, but it
seems like you've found that they can be applied
and they can be their own challenge in all these
other spaces as well that are rife with conflict.
Yes, they are a kind of compass, I guess you
could say, for true north. And it doesn't matter
if I'm in... you know, New Orleans trying to
find true north, or if I'm in Jerusalem trying
to find true north, or if I'm in South Africa
trying to find true north, the compass itself
will point me to true north. And I think that's
why it's so applicable to... It's great because
it shapeshifts and it changes me. Like, I'm in
an active participatory relationship with these
protocols, which might be obvious, but I found...
I found it's not obvious, so I think it's worth
mentioning that. But yes, it's a compass that
no matter what territory it is in, is a useful
tool and a useful beacon to point me in the right
direction. Yeah, yeah. I'd like to get into those
three principles and then also this aspect of
your journey kind of coming full circle, unfortunately,
from... october 7th last year but but first i
think our audience would be interested um what
is your own spiritual background and how would
you describe your beliefs and worldview really
simple question so it's easier for me to describe
my background than it is for me to answer the
second question so i but i will try i grew up
in a in a christian home that is most proximate
to seven -day Adventist in terms of how it manifests.
So I grew up going to church on Saturday, not
Sunday, but I also grew up observing all the
holy days in the Old Testament, keeping basic
kosher, you know, found in the Old Testament,
so not eating pork or shellfish. My parents and
my father in particular used to be a Baptist.
and went on his own spiritual journey and came
to his own conclusions that we're supposed to
be observing the holy days and such that are
found in the Old Testament. And so that's how
I grew up. I grew up observing or attending a
church that did church in this way. And what
that did was bring me very close. I mean, it
enmeshed me in Jewish culture. even though I
wasn't really interacting with Jews for the first,
I don't know, 17 years of my life. I mean, I
had some Jewish friends here and there, but it
wasn't as if it was this large milieu that I
was a part of, but I was still connected through
the rituals that I encountered growing up. That
made me, makes me still a chameleon. Of sorts.
I find. And in coming into my own. I find. You
know. Rigid. Binary. Ways of doing religion.
Not like. Morally wrong. Like maybe I do. But
I actually find them increasingly uninteresting.
More than morally wrong. They're boring. They're
so calcified and hollowed out. And so now, oh
my goodness, how would I describe my spirituality?
I'm a multi -hyphenate. My spirituality is multi
-hyphenate. I've been studying Eastern mysticism
since 2020. I've been very much touched by the
gift of Buddhism and even a little Hinduism.
you know, pre -Hindu Vedic frequencies. I have
a morning chanting practice that I do on a daily
basis. It takes about 30 minutes. I am in an
active relationship with sound and with music
and always have been, but I've been more intentional
about that. So yeah, I'm a multi -hyphenate being.
I am radically other. What do you mean by that?
I've been listening to this really brilliant
man named Bayo Akomolafe, who I highly recommend
looking him up. He's Nigerian. And he speaks
about how, he says this radical, makes this radical
claim, which I find increasingly true, which
is that I am not an individual in the sense that
we think of individuals in modernity. Like, I
cannot, I cannot excavate myself from... the
processes that unfold me and I'm writing about
this I'm writing a book now I'm writing about
this and I talk about like you know I had this
encounter with someone who accused me of being
anti -black who accused me of not of not standing
with my own quote -unquote and I really I mean
my whole life has been a meditation on this but
this was a flashpoint of like what does it what
does what does that mean what does the concept
of my own mean like who's the first homo sapien
to utter the words my own to utter that phrase
like my name i am called chloe because my parents
fell in love with the chloe perfume in france
which means that the sound that invokes me right
the name that summons me into being was in part
formed in relationship between my parents, between
these two entrepreneurs who created Chloe Perfume,
between Rose and Amber Wood and Honey, you know,
between the actual aromas and fragrances and
plants that went into creating this perfume.
So who is my own? Am I French? Yes. Am I Rose?
Yes. Am I Port City of New Orleans? Yes. That's
what I mean when I say radically other. And I'm
like, I'm finally, I'm so grateful to have the
language, like to feel the language flowing through
me to be able to articulate this. It feels really
exciting for me to just talk about, to talk about
this in this way. Yeah, what's so exciting to
you about that? It just feels true. It feels
so true, but also enchanting. Like it's something
incredibly, like that is enchantment. And it's
sort of like the theory of enchantment has been
that compass that has been pointing me towards
this kind of being for a very long time. And
I feel like I'm getting into, not that theory
of enchantment wasn't a practice. There have
always been practices. You know, there's a course.
But I'm in, at this point in my life, I'm at
the point where it's becoming deeper. It's becoming
more practice and theory of enchantment. It's
becoming like, oh, should I get rid of the theory
of part and change it to enchantment? Like, do
I have the audacity to do that? You know, so
it feels very much alive and it feels true, not
in a dogmatic sense. Right. But in a. In a way
that I said this to myself earlier today, like,
oh, actually, I'm finding that the truth is very
exquisite. The truth is very exquisite. And that
isn't to say that it's, you know, toxic, toxically
positive, but the truth is exquisite. Yeah. Yeah.
Truth to me has always, well, I've kind of had
an allergy to truth when it becomes dogmatic,
you know. However, truth to me has always resonated
as expansive. Yes. You know, like this is something
I can endlessly explore. Like the Christian mystics
would, they would say that we are all one with
God. in a sense. And the spiritual journey is
to awaken more and more to who we already are.
But that is an endless journey deeper into your
own. Is this your own dance with the divine?
So there's truth, but then that itself is its
own portal to self -discovery, to the Franciscans
really elevate the discovery of creation, the
discovery of matter, the divine really permeating
all matter. So, yeah, yeah. I did want to ask
you, Theory of Enchantment, that name, for you,
what is the... What is the depth of meaning behind
that? So I originally picked that name because
when I wrote the thesis, I was reading all these
books about pop culture because I'm enamored.
I mean, I was more back then than I am now, but
back then I was enamored with pop culture. I
was enamored with the observation that we as
human beings gravitate towards certain pop culture
brands like Nike and Beyonce and Disney. Apple.
And I read a book by Guy Kawasaki, the former
marketing director of Apple, called Enchantment.
And it was about how Steve Jobs designed these
really elegant products. And for whatever reason,
that word just captured, also because it's associated
with Disney, it's magic, you know, that word
captured, most closely approximated the feeling
I was trying to communicate. And today, my relationship
with, I mean, you know, it's a constantly unfolding,
constantly becoming practice. Today, that word
is even more deeply resonant with me because
there's song in the word enchantment. To enchant
is to chant. Chant is the tree trunk of that
word, actually. Now that I have a daily chanting
practice and I'm in an active sort of, what is
it devotional relationship with music and sound
and voice it means even more that word means
even more to me than it did when I first you
know plucked it to signify this thing that I
was trying to create absolutely yeah sound has
always been a really interesting metaphor for
me like Like St. Bonaventure, Franciscan theologian,
he played with this idea of fontalis plenitudo,
which is fountain fullness. So at the very core
of reality is love and goodness, self -giving
of itself into creation, into this moment, into
our lives, into our loved ones. And this is something
that we get to swim in. For me, when I sound
feels like that to me, because it's, it's rising
up, you know, it's rising up from this place
and it is there to be received into enter into.
And maybe you sing, maybe you dance, maybe you
just listen. However, it is such that for me,
it's always just been such a striking metaphor
of. what reality what i believe reality to be
metaphysically do you have any thoughts there
any anything you would push back on or add i'm
not pushed back i don't think i would push back
on it but the vedas the vedic tradition and even
like i think this is pre -hindu and the pre i
was taught this by a very beautiful teacher then
the pre -hindu vedas vedic tradition god is sound
there's endless implication to that um and it
it This has changed my relationship with Judaism
and with Christianity and with all these other
wisdom traditions that enfold me. And it also
has made me get really sincere and more serious
about my voice and how I would like to become...
Become open enough. And surrendered enough. For
whatever wants to come through vocally. So that
whatever wants to come through vocally can. I
know that as human beings. We can be very. Very
shy. I know I can. Insecure about my voice. And
I have this really beautiful. Vocal coach named
Maren Azar. Who has taught me a lot of these
things. And. She says. It's not that big of a
deal. You're attaching too much ego to it. It
is both the fabric of creation itself, sound,
is the fabric of creation itself, and therefore
not this thing to get caught up in. Do I sound
good when I sing? Am I performing? It's precisely
because it is the fabric of reality itself is
why you wouldn't relate to it in that way. I
can go on and on, but that, those are some of
my thoughts. Yeah, no, I love, I mean, it's,
as you're talking, it's like, it's like that
sound is within you already, you know, like there,
there's this coming back to truth again. Like
there is this exquisite truth within you meant
to be released. In its own timing. Yes. In the
second we begin to measure it or judge it or
quantify it, it's almost as if we kind of strip
it of its beauty a little bit. Well, it disappears,
right? This is like, this is the nature. One
time I have a relationship with psilocybin. And
one time I took psilocybin and I channeled a
song and I called it The Lord. And it literally
came through. And this song, I'll send it to
you. It's on my SoundCloud. And it's completely
acapella, so just be prepared. But this song
is me describing the manifestations of God. And
it's me in conversation with God. God goddess
is saying, I am neither silence nor sound. I
am neither this nor that, you know, and it's,
and it's me having a conversation with that being,
being like, yes, but I am in human form and I
need, because I am not, because I am not a winter
storm, right? I am not like, I need anchoring.
I need you. to anchor me I need you to show up
in a in a full and it was it was a song that
is truly a prayer um and I need to memorize it
because I would love to perform it one day um
and it's really beautiful you'll hear it because
I was I resolve it in a way by accepting the
ultimately unresolvable nature of the question
which is a very Roka you know like thing to do
I I ended by the lyric is um like something like
it cannot be captured the truth in words that
simply cannot capture the lord however because
i'm singing it i'm not saying it you'll you'll
hear it when you listen to it because i'm singing
this it makes it resolve because while the words
can't capture the lord the song does like the
the fundamentally ineffable immaterial yet very
physically present That sound is actually, that
paradox is what captures the Lord. Yes. Yeah.
I love that so much. Yeah, because a lot of mystics
would say, like, we are, you know, like, I don't
know if you're familiar with the philosopher
Peter Rollins, but he has a great quote. It's
something along the lines of, God is that whom
we cannot name. However, whom we should never
stop speaking. Yes. It's this dance of, if I'm
tracking with you, it's this dance of, we know
the song is going to fall short of fully capturing
the ineffable. However, gosh dang it, you still
have to sing it. It also comes very close. It
comes closer. Song is closer, in my experience.
Song is closer to the divine than mere words.
There are some people, like poets, who can come
very close simply by speaking. But generally
speaking, I would say, for me, sound is closer.
Dance is closer. probably my first language and
is closer, could never fully approximate, but
can satisfy my yearning for the experience of
the ineffable for sure. Yeah. Experience is such
an important word too. You know, it's something
to be entered into. Yes. Yes, exactly. Yeah.
Well, I think listeners are already seeing the
depth of that word enchantment. You know, I mean,
there's wonder there. There is awe. There is
a spirituality, a journey, an experience, a theology
even, if you will, an anthropology too. Definitely
anthropology. Yeah, the wonder. Yeah, you want
to go into that, by the way? You kind of lit
up when I said that. Yeah. I was just going to
make a joke that I'm sure in a previous life
I was an anthropologist. I feel that deeply.
I feel that deeply. Some of my most favorite
thinkers and writers are anthropologists or ecologists,
people who are deeply in touch with the more
-than -human world and very deeply in touch with
how the more -than -human world has shaped us
as human beings. I live for that. Well, even...
Even the first principle of theory of enchantment,
I mean, it has such anthropological depth that
treat people like human beings, not political
abstractions. So I'm curious if you can take
this in your own direction. But when I hear that
and meditate upon it, it's like, yeah, this person
who I may disagree with. this person who maybe
is absolutely maddening to me, that is a person
with a heart and a soul and a mind. And all of
these things have been crafted and formed in
their own experiences, experiences that may have
been very painful or traumatic. And therefore,
how can I cheapen that person to a political
abstraction? The person in front of me is pure
wonder. There's a story there. What are your
thoughts and what would you add? There's a, someone
recently, I think it was actually Bayo Akomolafe
in an interview with someone, both of them realized
that it's very actually difficult, deeply difficult
for us as human beings to be in relationship
with the mystery, with the great mystery, right?
And one of the first things I always teach in
my workshops. When I'm speaking about racism
and what causes it and how it develops within
us, between us, I talk about our inability to
be in relationship with darkness. And I'm actually
curious to get, I need to know what the Christian
mystics thought of this because within the context
of traditional Christianity, darkness is banished.
There's a split, right? Darkness is perceived
as evil, as a thing that must be defeated, that
must be overcome. And there's this, in a lot
of mystical traditions, no matter which tradition,
whether it's Judaism or Buddhism, whatever, in
a lot of mystical traditions, there's this other...
idea which can be found in the book of isaiah
actually it's the only scripture in the bible
that i've found that that comes close to this
there's a text in isaiah where god says behold
i create light and darkness good and evil i alone
do this it's the most daoist like text in that
i've come across in in the bible and so All of
this is to say, many of my lectures and workshops
have started out with an invitation for people
to get in relationship with mystery, which is
to say with darkness. With the darkness within
their own being, which can never be fully comprehended,
which can never be fully extricated or controlled
or isolated in the scientific sense of the word.
um incarcerated can never be fully pinned down
and then i use that as a launching pad to talk
about racism because racism in the american context
is an inability to to take in the darker brother,
right? The darker sister, which is just a reflection
of being unable to absorb or be in relationship
with your own darkness, right? It manifests in
the European context as, historically speaking,
Christians not being able to take in the Jewish
brother. It manifests also as, which I find this
fun fact fascinating, as Protestant Europeans
not being able to take in Italians, right? And
vice versa, of course, British and Irish. It
doesn't matter. Like the shape -shifting nature
of darkness has nothing to do actually with skin
color, right? Rather, it is an orientation. It
is a relationship that one has not been able
to enter into with oneself. I have no idea. I
don't remember what your question was. There
probably wasn't one. No, there was. I think there
was. It was probably just me word vomiting and
saying, hey, what do you think about that? That's
almost my question. That's what I think about
it. Yeah, that's what I think about it. Yeah,
well, even in the Christian tradition, I mean,
one reading of the crucifixion would be that
this man was a scapegoat. you know that this
yeah this jewish man gerard that's like renee
gerard's whole like thesis yeah yes exactly and
and it's what you said is that it is an inability
to deal with one's own darkness one one's own
uncertainty one zone like this guy is coming
about and he is like kind of pushing all the
buttons and he's Asking me to rethink like how,
who God is and how like my dance with God should
be. And I, I'm not ready to hear that yet. Like,
because I can't deal with that within myself.
Therefore we need to scapegoat them. But yeah,
I, what you're talking about, I mean, I see it
on display in our political environment too.
I mean, so much of the hatred and the vitriol.
It comes down to, I think, our own inability
to accept those more complex, darker, frustrating
things within ourselves that lack resolve. And
so we have to kind of lash out rather than go
inward. Not have to, but you know what I'm saying.
Not have to. That is the knee -jerk response.
lash out because I'm afraid of this thing within
me. And it's not just individual. And this is
like a new download I've been having lately that
I think is really important to bring in. And
it's important to bring in because for me, it
gives me, it takes away guilt because growing
up in a very dogmatic Protestant home. And there
were many gifts and spiritual teachings that
I received from my upbringing. But it was dogmatic.
Growing up in this home, there was a kind of
guilt that I felt. And a kind of constantly being
surveilled and self -surveilling to make sure
I was good. To make sure I was showing up pure,
which is the Puritan. And it's not just my home.
It's the entire American ethos. America is deeply
because it was formed by Puritans. And the problem,
many problems with that. But the problem, one
of the problems that fascinates me is that the
individual human being cannot take that on. The
individual human being cannot take on. surmount
the level of guilt shame etc that informs them
if they remain if I I'll speak with I statements
if I remain firmly ensconced in such a paradigm
like that that will ultimately kill me that that
paradigm will ultimately be my undoing and so
what I have uh slowly but surely come to discover
is is that there's this like lowercase s and
I'm saying lowercase as a way as a way to actually
honor the lowercase right there's there's a lowercase
s salvation in knowing that I am not merely the
atomized individual I think I am which is to
say that If I am overcome in moments where I
am triggered by someone who says something to
me that's very harmful or very painful, if I
am triggered in moments to think other of them,
think lowly of them, to condescend to them, think
supremacist, which is a compensation for smallness,
I don't need to experience that as me. becoming
a supremacist right I can experience that as
the winds of supremacy just just move through
me right like I don't need to actually identify
that as me I don't need to identify that as my
own I don't need to take on the full you know
I don't need to become superman in my relationship
to that and i've been really meditating on that
lately and it's been it's been a bomb for me
and it's been a salve which is funny because
it's related to the word salvation it's been
a salve for me and it's been medicine for me
to really take that in yeah oh my gosh um i have
so many questions oh where to begin um I'm trying
to somehow succinctly bring together what you
just said, and I'm struggling to do so. Well,
can I offer something? Okay, so I can try to
clarify the thread or, like, show the thread,
reveal the thread. Treat people like human beings.
What is a human being? A homo sapien, right?
A mammal, right? We have... these aspects of
our nervous systems that are millions of years
old that we have absolutely no control over.
So, you know, the, what is it? I haven't spoken
about this in a while, so bear with me. But there
are parts of my nervous system that bring me
into fight or flight that I have no control over,
that are 300 million years old in the evolutionary
timetable, right? That evolved when I was somewhere,
I don't know, as a as a Impala in the African
Savannah, like there are, there are parts of
me that are not mine, right. That's, but that's
still shaped me and move me. And that is actually
what it means to be a human being. And so to
treat people like human beings is a very deep,
I said to someone the other day, It takes several
years to learn the first principle of the theory
of enchantment, and I am still learning it. Before
we get into the second, it takes years to learn
the first principle. So is that helpful? Does
that tease it out? Absolutely, it is. And I think
that, I mean, when you hear those three principles
from the theory of enchantment, it obviously
invites you into a lot of inner work. an introspection.
However, I think what you're saying is so important
for anyone on their spiritual journey, because
I think there's a real danger to introspection
if you don't have the awareness that you're speaking
about. Because at least for me, I can very easily
begin to judge myself in that introspection.
And like you said, this must be who I am. I went
in and found this. Like, oh my gosh, now I feel
worse. Like now I went on the spiritual journey.
And now I'm right back at my fundamentalist roots.
I have a similar Christian background that you
do. And now I'm judging myself again. So now
I feel worse even though I'm trying to go in.
I think that that detachment is so important
that, hey, maybe this anxiety, maybe this depression,
maybe this fill -in -the -blank whatever, maybe
this isn't mine. Maybe this was passed on to
me. It's still worth getting curious about. But
it's almost like that cushion of grace allows
me to get even more curious about it and go deeper.
Because I'm leaving the self -judgment behind.
Am I tracking there? For sure. A hundred percent.
A hundred percent. Yeah. No, it's really great.
Really beautiful. The ways in which I have discovered
that anger, depression, I always say melancholy
is a very beautiful sister of mine. I actually
recently wrote this in a sub stack. I've felt
melancholy all my life, like since I can remember.
And I struggled with that. She's a tough teacher,
I have found. But the fact that I'm able to speak
of her as a teacher, to speak of her as a person
or whatever, a force, as a her, is a testament
to my travels along this spiritual journey I
have been on. There's a way in which... What
I am really calling for is devotion, right? This
orientation of devotion to whatever greets you.
And Rumi spoke about this, you know, in his poetry.
And many other great poets and artists have spoken
about this or have expressed this in their work.
The invitation here is when you feel depression.
as an example, and think of the embodied language
of that, to push down, right, when you feel contracted,
is to experience it as an invitation to commune
with that force that is depression, right, and
to consider that maybe the proper response to
depression, and even to take something even more
radical here, to supremacy, let's say the force
of supremacy that moves through us as human beings.
Can you define that real quick, by the way? I've
heard you talk about it before, but how would
you describe this force of supremacy that blows
its way into all of our lives in some way? Yeah,
I'm still learning the, you know, I can tell
you the sort of psychological. I can try to explain
psychological language of it. The psychological
narrative of it is when I feel small and I don't
know how to deal with my smallness, I project
that smallness outward onto you, right? As a
way to protect myself from the pain of feeling
small. That's a psychological narrative. There
is an unfolding happening. in me that is going
beyond the psychological which the psychological
is is has been an incredible the realm of psychology
has been such a deep teacher uh for me and i'm
so grateful to that realm and that realm centers
or reifies this idea of human beings as individuals
it's like solitary right individuals and so to
go beyond to attempt to go beyond so that's what
i mean when i say like what is the force of supremacy
as it exists outside of my limited being and
and and it's it's an invitation to change the
the mate to ask a different question about who
is the main character here to to uh place yourself
in the narrative where you're not the main character
in a radical way in a radical way yes which um
that would allow you to get more curious about
some of the other things that are pulling the
strings in ways that you didn't know. Correct?
And that you have no control over. Right. And
that you have no control over, which is the,
and that is the portal to grace. That's the portal
to grace. The total surrender to the forces.
that enfold you the fact that there are winds
that carry pollen and viruses to new york city
every spring that will end up inside the respiratory
uh you know systems of some of us totally beyond
our control right there's a there's a again not
toxic positivity right this is like it is it
has become so gracious for me to meditate On
my on how I am enfolded by all of these forces
that bring melancholy and joy and depression
and anger and bitterness and the monstrous. Right.
Like that is grace. Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful.
And speaking of grace. Is grace the thing that
leads to the second principle? Like the second
principle is criticized to uplift and empower.
So I'm curious how the first one treat people
like human beings, not political abstractions.
And then the second one criticized to uplift
and empower. How are those two connected? And
how does the first one help make way for the
second? So the second principle emerged out of
a contemplation on the civil rights movement
and how the movement members practiced being
persecuted. They put themselves in these dojos,
these training grounds, where they would simulate
what would happen to them once they got into
the diners they were trying to desegregate. And
so they... you know, they had their peers call
them terrible names and spit on them and, you
know, do physical violence. So to prepare themselves
for that to happen and still refuse to fight
back violently. And in a way, the way that I,
the way that my very cerebral brain read that,
or like conclusion, summary of that was the second
principle, is the second principle. It's like
the person, These people are refusing to... They're
protesting, but they're protesting in a way that
ensures that the other is not harmed. It's also
very... It's also very Jainist. I hope I'm pronouncing
that correctly. It's very Buddhist, very Bodhisattva
idea. And Dr. King, he went to the East and he
studied a lot of Eastern... And his sort of philosophy
is this combination of Protestant, Southern,
Baptist, you know, Tillich theology with With
Buddhism and Gandhi and all those things. So
the second principle emerges out of that. I don't
know if I feel very resonant with the way that
is phrased today. With the way the second principle
reads, I want to find a more poetic way to say
it. When people hear the word criticize, they
kind of contract. So it's still a possibility
that that principle might change to take on more
poetic language. But the idea is that once you
are in a devotional practice with a great mystery
of being your own and the other, which of course
is the same, then naturally you will be more
inclined to criticize the other in a way that
takes care of them. There's actually a limit
to that principle, though, I will say. There's
a limit to that principle in the sense that...
It doesn't leave room for the monster. And I
am learning that a door must be left open for
the monster. Alms must be laid at the monster's
feet. And that's a hard teaching. What do you
mean by that? I mean that there's a very... I
think what I mean is like we as human beings
need containers to express anger and rage. We
need healthy containers through which to express
anger and rage. And I don't believe in the suppression
or repression of rage or anger or any of the
bass notes, right? And hear bass as music, not
as impure, right? We don't have in our society
the containers to properly channel. And those
emotions must be given their due. And so there's
a way in which one can hear the second principle
and be like, oh, I have to never get mad at someone
or never lash out at someone or never express
myself in a really angry way. And that's not
what I want people to take from the second principle.
Got it. Yeah. Let me know what you think about
this. I mean, before we hit record, we were talking
about St. Francis of Assisi's journey during
the Fifth Crusade where he got on this journey,
as I mentioned, to convert the sultan, you know,
thinking that he was going to come back as this,
like, great hero because he was going to convert
all these Muslims to Christianity under the sultan's
guidance. What he actually finds out is that
in not treating the sultan like a political abstraction,
which one could argue that's what he was doing
by placing this label on him, is someone who
needed to be converted. Because I have all the
answers, right? So I need to help this person
find the truth. What he actually finds is by
not treating the sultan like a political abstraction.
And treating him as a human being with a heart
and a soul and a mind and a beautiful religion
and philosophy that could help Francis in his
life. Now there's room for dialogue. Now there's
room for this, what is believed, maybe it's lore,
but it's believed that they spent several days
together. And they probably debated. they probably
quote -unquote criticized. However, because they're
seeing each other as human beings and not political
abstractions, now they can enter into this dance
with dialogue, and that's when it becomes fun
because you're seeing the person as they are,
and they're seeing you as you are. So you know
that in the comforts of that relationship, the
dialogue – the relationship can hold the dialogue.
Yes. Even if it gets tense at times. That's right.
Even if there are these really heavy bass notes
at times. You're safe in the relationship. So
am I on track there? Maybe dialogue is what that
second principle is pointing us toward in some
way. Yes, and I – Dialogue, dialogos, right?
It's a very deep Greek idea. It's actually related
to the text. I forgot what chapter in the New
Testament where Jesus says, wherever two or three
are gathered in my name, there will I abide in
the midst. I think in the original Greek, something
to do with logos is happening there. And there's
a great. cognitive scientist named john verveke
who talks a lot about this in his in his um videos
and such and like the art of dialogos and what
dialogos is uh it's like to be in relationship
with someone such that you recognize their constantly
unfolding nature and you can hear i can hear
in that there i will abide in the in the midst
of that right like there's something absolutely
gorgeous about that that we in modernity You
know, very rarely get access to. But yeah, so
I think you're I think you're right about that.
Yeah. And and what's crazy is that you need you
need each other for the logos. Right. Yes. You
know, it's like, yes, you can't do it alone.
You can't you can't do it solitarily. Yeah, exactly.
So, you know, Francis and the Sultan, you know,
or you could use any example like. You're in
the you're going somewhere together deeper into
the divine nature of reality. And that's going
to be crazy. You know, like maybe maybe maybe
you're even yelling each other at times and it
gets really tense. However, as long as you stay
in that place of we are human beings in our relationship
can handle. the up and down of this dialogue
and the chaos of this dialogue, we're exploring
the divine together. There's something really
insightful that you just said that, that struck
me just now. It's like, I have to trust. And
I have this challenge where I will feel very
passionate about something in conversation with
someone. And I will want to like yell or be animated.
And I won't let myself do it because I don't
want to, whatever. I pathologize that a little
bit, but there's something, there's an invitation
here for me to trust the relationship. Even with
strangers, which is an edge for me, to trust
that the relationship can hold that tension.
Yeah, yeah. I do want to be respectful of your
time, Chloe. So let's get to the third principle
real quick. And the third one is root everything
you do in love and compassion. What's the connection
here between the second? And the third, what's
the kind of movement here as we move into the
third principle of theory of enchantment? Let
me ask you a question. I heard that Francis of
Assisi, he would walk on his hands. Is that true?
Francis of Assisi? Yeah. Oh, I mean, I have not
heard that. Was he famous for that? I actually
heard it through the Mumford & Sons song that
I mentioned before we recorded it. There's a,
this is relevant to your question, I promise.
There's a, there's a, there's a line in, I forgot
the name of the song, but there's a line in one
of Mumford & Sons' song from the album Si No
More where they say, so come out of your cave
walking on your hands and see the world. hanging
upside down and apparently allegedly that is
a reference to francis of assisi fact check me
on that people um and i bring that up yeah go
ahead yeah go ahead no no you go well i was just
gonna add very quickly that whether that's uh
literally true or not the the metaphor is apt
um and of course okay no if it was literally
true or not because he lived in the middle ages
there's no way there's no way to know yeah but
francis i mean lore goes that he would like preach
to worms you know and like the birds would gather
around him and listen to him and like he yeah
he was like snow white in the forest yeah exactly
exactly just like vibing yeah yes but in a very
real sense and i think this is the important
part is that at this time where church was generally
the only place where people thought that they
could experience the divine, Francis was experiencing
the divine in creation itself. Wasn't turning
his back on the church. You know what I mean?
He remained a Catholic. However, he, in a very
real way, he was walking on his hands because
he wanted. every single aspect of himself to
be entrenched in creation because that's where
the divine was so i mean like they're sorry go
ahead with the third principle but i know it's
a really beautiful visual yeah so i bring that
up because i play capoeira and capoeira is this
afro -brazilian martial art created by slaves
who were taken by the portuguese brought to brazil
as a as a dance It masqueraded as a dance, but
it was actually a kind of resistance against
slave owners in Brazil. And it's this really
beautiful martial arts form of movement and dance,
but also fighting. You don't actually do capoeira.
You don't fight capoeira. You play capoeira,
which I love the beautiful linguistics of that.
But in capoeira, you walk on your hands a lot.
You do these headstands and these handstands
and these kicks and you walk on your hands. And
there's this circular nature in Capoeira, which
I sense when I hear that Francis of Assisi. I
sense that in him when I hear this about him.
And I sense this in him when I hear about his
relationship with the sultan. And when we talk
about dialogos, right, there's this encircling
nature, not linear. which is very different,
but encircling, enfolding nature that I experience
as the nature of love. And so the third principle
is root everything you do in love and compassion.
I sometimes say that that is the culmination
of the first two principles, and it is. It totally
is. And I feel an invitation to talk about the
circular dance -like enfolding nature of reality
itself, which is what I'm getting at when I speak
of love. And it's also the nature of agape, right?
And Dr. King said agape or unconditional love,
Christian concept, right? And I love, just as
a side note, I experience Christianity as this
really beautiful, although fraught, beautiful
marriage or or uh what is it dare i say tryst
between greek greek thought and judaism like
that is how i experience christianity um that
has been taken by the roman catholic church and
universalized but anyway um with agape agape
love is i love you like my love informs you by
loving you you become a full person gape love
is also like the type of love that a parent has
for a child right by loving you you actually
grow up right by loving you you become raised
right listen to the vegetative nature of that
language right even husbandry is like a agricultural
term right and there's like this there's this
enfolding nature of love in which one cannot
help but lose themselves meaning you cannot you
cannot help but be changed through the through
this type of love that I am describing right
this type of love which we've been describing
throughout all talking about all of the principles
you are forever changed by it you are not in
control of it it is in some way outside of you
so root everything you do in love and compassion
is to say enter into this devotional practice
with self and other with the other that is yourself
and you will you will become you will notice
the unfolding will will create in you this capacity
for grace will make you larger than life not
in a you know arrogant sense but in a it will
make you larger than life and it will humble
you at the same time, right? Because it will
put you in touch with the earth, which is what
the word humble means, right? It comes from the
word hummus of the earth, of the land. And there's,
I want to stress that this is not something,
at least, at least that I found, this is not
something that can be like ascertained or approximated
simply through talking, but you have to dance
in order to experience this, you know, you have
to, and Dialogo sort of, you know, Hints at that.
But you have to dance. You have to chant. When
you're chanting, you and the song are becoming
one. It's a trance that's happening. And that
is the nature of the love that I am describing.
Yeah, well, it's a really beautiful thing, Chloe.
These principles and this organization that formed
within you years ago. there's still, you're still
on that spiral going deeper and deeper into these
principles yourself. Because of that, it seems
like your organization and all the healing work
that you do as a peacemaker, just like Francis
of Assisi, you find yourself in these very unique
situations, but because you're on that journey
too. And I just think it's a really beautiful
thing. So thank you for your time. Do you have
anything else you'd like to add or any invitation
to the listener or anything at all that I left
out? Well, first of all, thank you, Stephen,
for inviting me. I've loved this conversation.
It's been really beautiful. For people who want
to know more about Theory of Enchantment, they
can check out theoryofenchantment .com. They
can also follow me on Substack. Just look up
my name, Chloe Valdry. I've been doing a lot
more writing lately. I would also love to know
from you, Stephen, if there's a book about Francis
of Assisi you think I should read, because I'm
very curious to learn more. Absolutely. No, I'll
I'll send you several. OK, sounds good. And I'm
definitely going to look up the walking on his
hands thing because. Yeah, Mumford and Sons deep
cut. Yeah, I'm going to go see Mumford in July
and I'm fired up about it. Oh, cool. Yeah, I'll
be my first time seeing Mumford. But thank you
again, Chloe. Really enjoyed this conversation.
My pleasure. Once again, that was Chloe Valdry,
founder and creator of the Theory of Enchantment.
You can follow her work on Substack at chloevaldry
.substack .com or learn more about Theory of
Enchantment at theoryofenchantment .com. I've
linked to some of her work in the show notes
of this episode, as well as to our series in
St. Anthony Messenger that highlights the work
of healers and peacemakers, of people like Chloe
and organizations like Theory of Enchantment.
Thanks for tuning in and thanks as always for
your support. Might we, like Francis, leave our
caves walking on our hands this week, experiencing
the divine through our bodies, through the earth,
through ways we may have least expected, as we
learn to depend entirely on our maker. Maybe
the world's hanging upside down, but maybe that's
the kind of paradigm shift Francis modeled. And
maybe this is the countercultural approach that
can bring healing to ourselves and to our world.
As G .K. Chesterton wrote, Francis looked at
the world as differently from other men, as if
he had come out of that dark hole walking on
his hands. Peace and all good, my friends. the
desert with me and tenderly speak to your heart.