WEBVTT 00:00:08.009 --> 00:00:10.230 Welcome to Off the Page, and I'm Stephen Copeland. 00:00:10.730 --> 00:00:14.529 We live in a concerning age. Never in my life 00:00:14.529 --> 00:00:17.649 has it been more commonplace to caricature, demonize, 00:00:17.649 --> 00:00:20.730 label, cheapen, and overall completely neglect 00:00:20.730 --> 00:00:23.910 the God -given humanity of a person one disagrees 00:00:23.910 --> 00:00:27.609 with. In fact, our social media algorithms reward 00:00:27.609 --> 00:00:32.149 this kind of divisive behavior. TV ratings even 00:00:32.149 --> 00:00:35.770 thrive on conflict and hyperbole. The better 00:00:35.770 --> 00:00:39.020 the fear monger, the more successful the politician. 00:00:39.659 --> 00:00:43.700 Long gone seem the days of decency and civility. 00:00:44.359 --> 00:00:48.500 This episode's guest is the brilliant Chloe Valdory. 00:00:49.229 --> 00:00:51.609 Chloe has written for The New York Times, The 00:00:51.609 --> 00:00:54.710 Atlantic, The Wall Street Journal, and has appeared 00:00:54.710 --> 00:00:58.350 on numerous shows and podcasts all across the 00:00:58.350 --> 00:01:01.170 political spectrum, from Real Time with Bill 00:01:01.170 --> 00:01:04.689 Maher to Honestly with Barry Weiss to the Jordan 00:01:04.689 --> 00:01:08.829 Peterson podcast to The Megyn Kelly Show. I'd 00:01:08.829 --> 00:01:11.870 consider Chloe to be a public intellectual and 00:01:11.870 --> 00:01:14.629 thought leader, and her lectures and interviews 00:01:14.629 --> 00:01:17.250 have received millions of views across the Internet. 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:21.120 I personally stumbled upon Chloe's work back 00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:24.379 in 2020 when the divisive rhetoric I'm describing 00:01:24.379 --> 00:01:27.799 had arguably reached its peak, and I was becoming 00:01:27.799 --> 00:01:32.200 increasingly exhausted. Even some churches and 00:01:32.200 --> 00:01:35.280 religious communities I found were playing this 00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:38.280 cruel game, positioning their own morality as 00:01:38.280 --> 00:01:41.340 supreme and stifling compassion and curiosity 00:01:41.340 --> 00:01:44.400 for the person whose political ideology they 00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:48.489 did not understand. In Chloe, I found a brilliant, 00:01:48.549 --> 00:01:52.569 nuanced thinker who, while engaging in extremely 00:01:52.569 --> 00:01:56.090 difficult public conversations, strived to root 00:01:56.090 --> 00:01:59.969 everything that she did in love and radical curiosity. 00:02:01.209 --> 00:02:03.810 She is the founder of the Theory of Enchantment, 00:02:03.849 --> 00:02:07.390 the focus of today's conversation, a depolarization 00:02:07.390 --> 00:02:10.689 organization that helps cultivate respectful 00:02:10.689 --> 00:02:14.430 dialogue and compassion in some of our most divided 00:02:14.430 --> 00:02:18.550 and polarized spaces today. Theory of Enchantment 00:02:18.550 --> 00:02:21.849 has three expansive and profound principles that 00:02:21.849 --> 00:02:24.050 can help bring healing to our many divisions 00:02:24.050 --> 00:02:27.210 today, and we dissect each principle in this 00:02:27.210 --> 00:02:32.430 fun and free -flowing conversation. This is a 00:02:32.430 --> 00:02:35.430 unique episode. Chloe is not a Catholic or a 00:02:35.430 --> 00:02:38.310 Franciscan, but her three principles of Theory 00:02:38.310 --> 00:02:41.210 of Enchantment have always reminded me of and, 00:02:41.310 --> 00:02:44.789 in fact, take me deeper into the Franciscan way. 00:02:45.349 --> 00:02:48.289 Chloe, like Francis of Assisi, is a peacemaker, 00:02:48.469 --> 00:02:51.430 and she has created a framework that has a way 00:02:51.430 --> 00:02:55.930 of uniting seeming opposites and making way for 00:02:55.930 --> 00:03:00.400 the other to become our greatest teacher. These 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:02.819 principles can help bring healing to our divisions 00:03:02.819 --> 00:03:06.319 and our relationships, as well as personal integration. 00:03:06.919 --> 00:03:10.360 This was one of the most, I'd say, mystical conversations 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:13.879 I've had on this podcast, and it gets incredibly 00:03:13.879 --> 00:03:17.520 deep and even, I would say, beautifully dizzying 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:20.780 at times. It was a lot of fun, and I encourage 00:03:20.780 --> 00:03:23.759 you to subscribe to Chloe's Substack or visit 00:03:23.759 --> 00:03:26.400 theoryofenchantment .com to learn more about 00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:29.560 the incredible work she's doing. Be on the lookout. 00:03:29.580 --> 00:03:32.060 out as well for my piece on her organization 00:03:32.060 --> 00:03:35.759 in a future issue of St. Anthony Messenger. This 00:03:35.759 --> 00:03:38.479 will be part of our Rebuild God's Church series, 00:03:38.620 --> 00:03:41.800 which seeks to tell the stories of people, organizations, 00:03:42.039 --> 00:03:45.039 ministries who are doing healing work in the 00:03:45.039 --> 00:03:48.599 world. Once again, no reflection segments this 00:03:48.599 --> 00:03:51.460 episode, though I do invite you to take time 00:03:51.460 --> 00:03:54.599 with the three principles we discuss and consider 00:03:54.599 --> 00:03:57.460 what they may mean to you and your community. 00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:01.419 find out. Chloe is absolutely profound. So as 00:04:01.419 --> 00:04:04.719 always, don't hesitate to hit pause and really 00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:06.979 sit and digest with something that the guest 00:04:06.979 --> 00:04:10.240 has said. I hope you enjoy this conversation 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:14.300 as much as I did. So without further ado, here 00:04:14.300 --> 00:04:21.040 is Chloe Valdory. Chloe Valdory, welcome to Off 00:04:21.040 --> 00:04:23.139 the Page. Thank you so much for having me, Stephen. 00:04:23.240 --> 00:04:25.720 I'm so grateful to be in conversation with you. 00:04:26.139 --> 00:04:28.500 Yeah, so I know you've been asked this question 00:04:28.500 --> 00:04:30.740 a thousand times, but I think it'd be helpful 00:04:30.740 --> 00:04:34.160 for our listeners to hear it from you. What is 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:36.920 Theory of Enchantment and why did you start this 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:40.720 organization? So I created Theory of Enchantment 00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:48.160 back in 2015. Originally, it was actually my 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:51.420 attempt to come up with a framework rooted in 00:04:51.420 --> 00:04:54.220 love in response to the Israeli -Palestinian 00:04:54.220 --> 00:04:57.019 conflict. I studied the Israeli -Palestinian 00:04:57.019 --> 00:05:02.899 conflict in college. I am very much attached 00:05:02.899 --> 00:05:06.360 and deeply embedded to the Jewish community. 00:05:06.540 --> 00:05:08.600 So I've been to Israel many times. I had been 00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:11.000 to Israel many times and hosted many Israeli 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:13.860 speakers on my campus at the University of New 00:05:13.860 --> 00:05:18.980 Orleans. And I was very much perplexed by the 00:05:18.980 --> 00:05:23.500 challenge of anti -Semitism. and did a lot of 00:05:23.500 --> 00:05:26.860 activism trying to combat anti -Semitism in college. 00:05:27.079 --> 00:05:30.379 But the activism that I did, while it was instructive, 00:05:30.399 --> 00:05:35.240 it was lacking an intentional rooting in love. 00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:37.180 And so I created the Theory of Enchantment after 00:05:37.180 --> 00:05:41.379 I graduated. I'm from New Orleans. I moved to 00:05:41.379 --> 00:05:42.959 New York, got a job at the Wall Street Journal, 00:05:43.180 --> 00:05:45.779 was mentored by Brett Stevens, and under that 00:05:45.779 --> 00:05:49.240 mentorship developed a thesis that I called Theory 00:05:49.240 --> 00:05:53.430 of Enchantment. that attempted to create these 00:05:53.430 --> 00:05:57.129 protocols, really, for speaking about Israelis 00:05:57.129 --> 00:06:00.870 and Palestinians. So the first protocol was treat 00:06:00.870 --> 00:06:03.149 Israelis and Palestinians like human beings, 00:06:03.310 --> 00:06:05.670 not political abstractions. The second protocol 00:06:05.670 --> 00:06:10.269 was criticize to uplift and empower, never to 00:06:10.269 --> 00:06:12.370 tear down or destroy. And the third protocol 00:06:12.370 --> 00:06:14.329 was root everything you do in love and compassion. 00:06:14.990 --> 00:06:20.079 So I developed this and I... And I worked for 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:23.600 a Jewish nonprofit based in Jerusalem called 00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:26.100 Open Door Media, which provided Israel education 00:06:26.100 --> 00:06:29.620 through film. And I lectured around the world, 00:06:29.660 --> 00:06:34.100 really, on this new framework. And I did that 00:06:34.100 --> 00:06:37.860 for two years. It was amazing. And then afterwards, 00:06:37.939 --> 00:06:40.579 I went independent. And I was seeking advice 00:06:40.579 --> 00:06:42.759 from a lot of people, a lot of mentors, what 00:06:42.759 --> 00:06:47.310 to do next. And they were very much... Telling 00:06:47.310 --> 00:06:49.629 me, you know, this doesn't just apply to Israel 00:06:49.629 --> 00:06:51.610 -Palestine, it applies universally, it applies 00:06:51.610 --> 00:06:54.470 to social -emotional learning for high school 00:06:54.470 --> 00:06:57.410 students, it applies to, you know, diversity 00:06:57.410 --> 00:07:00.610 and inclusion in the United States. So why don't 00:07:00.610 --> 00:07:02.910 you think of taking these three principles or 00:07:02.910 --> 00:07:06.029 protocols and transforming them into a full course? 00:07:06.629 --> 00:07:08.990 So that's what I did. I created a full course, 00:07:09.009 --> 00:07:10.930 which is a really amazing course. I'm actually 00:07:10.930 --> 00:07:16.680 very proud of it. It takes the... great gifts 00:07:16.680 --> 00:07:20.459 of our pop culture, of contemporary pop culture. 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:26.420 It takes, you know, hip hop references and Black 00:07:26.420 --> 00:07:31.339 Panther and Disney movies and John Mayer songs 00:07:31.339 --> 00:07:34.660 and all of these things, all these rich things, 00:07:34.899 --> 00:07:39.899 these rich cultural archives and creates this 00:07:39.899 --> 00:07:44.439 kind of what is it, apprenticeship for people 00:07:44.439 --> 00:07:51.199 to discover their being and to love their being 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:56.620 deeply for the purposes of not projecting their 00:07:56.620 --> 00:07:59.639 insecurities onto others, which I believe is 00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:03.699 the root of bigotry, is the seed of bigotry. 00:08:05.100 --> 00:08:07.680 And so I did that for a number of years, or I 00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:09.339 actually did that for a couple of months. I created 00:08:09.339 --> 00:08:11.519 the course. I spoke at a few different high schools 00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:15.779 about the course. This was around 2019, 2018. 00:08:16.259 --> 00:08:19.139 And then in 2020, I was sort of discovered by 00:08:19.139 --> 00:08:22.420 podcasters and companies looking for an alternative 00:08:22.420 --> 00:08:26.970 framework. to mainstream approaches to DEI. So 00:08:26.970 --> 00:08:29.449 not the Ibram X. Kendi model, for those of you 00:08:29.449 --> 00:08:31.629 who may be familiar with how to be an anti -racist, 00:08:31.629 --> 00:08:34.830 right? Theory of Enchantment was set up or positioned 00:08:34.830 --> 00:08:37.590 as an alternative to that. It was positioned 00:08:37.590 --> 00:08:40.889 as an alternative to white fragility from Robert 00:08:40.889 --> 00:08:45.210 D 'Angelo's approach. And that is how most people 00:08:45.210 --> 00:08:50.169 who know of me have heard of me. Is that weird 00:08:50.169 --> 00:08:53.110 for you at all? You know, like Theory of Enchantment 00:08:53.110 --> 00:08:57.070 began with this very close connection with the 00:08:57.070 --> 00:09:01.450 Israel -Palestine conflict. And then yet a lot 00:09:01.450 --> 00:09:05.029 of people have heard of you during this anti 00:09:05.029 --> 00:09:09.029 -racist boom. What's that journey been like for 00:09:09.029 --> 00:09:11.470 you? That's a really great question. I think, 00:09:11.470 --> 00:09:16.700 you know. At first, it was weird, maybe. I think 00:09:16.700 --> 00:09:19.399 it was such a whirlwind, though, that I didn't 00:09:19.399 --> 00:09:23.320 really pause to clock it. It's actually weird 00:09:23.320 --> 00:09:28.120 now because I'm coming back or I'm returning 00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:30.820 to the Israel -Palestine conversation. I'm returning 00:09:30.820 --> 00:09:34.340 to the Black -Jewish conversation. I'm returning 00:09:34.340 --> 00:09:39.100 to that frequency, to that sound bowl, if you 00:09:39.100 --> 00:09:41.850 will. But I think ultimately all of these things 00:09:41.850 --> 00:09:44.250 have always been dancing with each other anyway. 00:09:45.230 --> 00:09:49.250 And as long as my sense of reality was disjointed, 00:09:49.389 --> 00:09:51.470 as long as my sense of reality is disjointed, 00:09:51.509 --> 00:09:54.330 as long as I perceive myself as this categorical, 00:09:54.370 --> 00:09:58.509 individual, atomized being that's just pressing 00:09:58.509 --> 00:10:01.730 something and then something happens, as opposed 00:10:01.730 --> 00:10:07.049 to the fact that I am fundamentally other, which 00:10:07.049 --> 00:10:09.769 means that I am shaped and informed. you know 00:10:09.769 --> 00:10:12.190 i exist in a web of mutual relations that shape 00:10:12.190 --> 00:10:14.049 and inform me not the other way around i don't 00:10:14.049 --> 00:10:18.730 i shape it less than it shapes me so um but it's 00:10:18.730 --> 00:10:21.710 still weird at times yes to answer your question 00:10:21.710 --> 00:10:26.230 yeah well it's very interesting because those 00:10:26.230 --> 00:10:28.690 three principles from theory of enchantment uh 00:10:28.690 --> 00:10:33.320 they're They strike such a universal chord that 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:36.259 you've found, correct me if I'm wrong, but it 00:10:36.259 --> 00:10:39.139 seems like you've found that they can be applied 00:10:39.139 --> 00:10:41.600 and they can be their own challenge in all these 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:44.700 other spaces as well that are rife with conflict. 00:10:44.700 --> 00:10:50.879 Yes, they are a kind of compass, I guess you 00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:57.220 could say, for true north. And it doesn't matter 00:10:57.220 --> 00:11:01.850 if I'm in... you know, New Orleans trying to 00:11:01.850 --> 00:11:04.730 find true north, or if I'm in Jerusalem trying 00:11:04.730 --> 00:11:07.429 to find true north, or if I'm in South Africa 00:11:07.429 --> 00:11:09.870 trying to find true north, the compass itself 00:11:09.870 --> 00:11:13.250 will point me to true north. And I think that's 00:11:13.250 --> 00:11:16.549 why it's so applicable to... It's great because 00:11:16.549 --> 00:11:20.669 it shapeshifts and it changes me. Like, I'm in 00:11:20.669 --> 00:11:23.850 an active participatory relationship with these 00:11:23.850 --> 00:11:27.850 protocols, which might be obvious, but I found... 00:11:29.100 --> 00:11:32.019 I found it's not obvious, so I think it's worth 00:11:32.019 --> 00:11:35.220 mentioning that. But yes, it's a compass that 00:11:35.220 --> 00:11:38.299 no matter what territory it is in, is a useful 00:11:38.299 --> 00:11:43.139 tool and a useful beacon to point me in the right 00:11:43.139 --> 00:11:46.919 direction. Yeah, yeah. I'd like to get into those 00:11:46.919 --> 00:11:50.299 three principles and then also this aspect of 00:11:50.299 --> 00:11:53.840 your journey kind of coming full circle, unfortunately, 00:11:54.259 --> 00:11:59.070 from... october 7th last year but but first i 00:11:59.070 --> 00:12:02.389 think our audience would be interested um what 00:12:02.389 --> 00:12:05.610 is your own spiritual background and how would 00:12:05.610 --> 00:12:09.309 you describe your beliefs and worldview really 00:12:09.309 --> 00:12:13.769 simple question so it's easier for me to describe 00:12:13.769 --> 00:12:16.289 my background than it is for me to answer the 00:12:16.289 --> 00:12:19.090 second question so i but i will try i grew up 00:12:19.090 --> 00:12:27.190 in a in a christian home that is most proximate 00:12:27.190 --> 00:12:30.029 to seven -day Adventist in terms of how it manifests. 00:12:30.250 --> 00:12:32.649 So I grew up going to church on Saturday, not 00:12:32.649 --> 00:12:35.610 Sunday, but I also grew up observing all the 00:12:35.610 --> 00:12:40.830 holy days in the Old Testament, keeping basic 00:12:40.830 --> 00:12:43.990 kosher, you know, found in the Old Testament, 00:12:44.090 --> 00:12:49.389 so not eating pork or shellfish. My parents and 00:12:49.389 --> 00:12:52.250 my father in particular used to be a Baptist. 00:12:53.019 --> 00:12:57.659 and went on his own spiritual journey and came 00:12:57.659 --> 00:12:59.639 to his own conclusions that we're supposed to 00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:04.240 be observing the holy days and such that are 00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:05.779 found in the Old Testament. And so that's how 00:13:05.779 --> 00:13:09.120 I grew up. I grew up observing or attending a 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:16.720 church that did church in this way. And what 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:19.299 that did was bring me very close. I mean, it 00:13:19.299 --> 00:13:23.909 enmeshed me in Jewish culture. even though I 00:13:23.909 --> 00:13:27.250 wasn't really interacting with Jews for the first, 00:13:27.350 --> 00:13:31.570 I don't know, 17 years of my life. I mean, I 00:13:31.570 --> 00:13:33.190 had some Jewish friends here and there, but it 00:13:33.190 --> 00:13:35.730 wasn't as if it was this large milieu that I 00:13:35.730 --> 00:13:38.490 was a part of, but I was still connected through 00:13:38.490 --> 00:13:44.629 the rituals that I encountered growing up. That 00:13:44.629 --> 00:13:52.370 made me, makes me still a chameleon. Of sorts. 00:13:54.590 --> 00:14:01.210 I find. And in coming into my own. I find. You 00:14:01.210 --> 00:14:05.929 know. Rigid. Binary. Ways of doing religion. 00:14:06.850 --> 00:14:12.570 Not like. Morally wrong. Like maybe I do. But 00:14:12.570 --> 00:14:14.710 I actually find them increasingly uninteresting. 00:14:16.299 --> 00:14:20.080 More than morally wrong. They're boring. They're 00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:27.860 so calcified and hollowed out. And so now, oh 00:14:27.860 --> 00:14:29.779 my goodness, how would I describe my spirituality? 00:14:30.139 --> 00:14:33.039 I'm a multi -hyphenate. My spirituality is multi 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:36.600 -hyphenate. I've been studying Eastern mysticism 00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:42.000 since 2020. I've been very much touched by the 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:44.799 gift of Buddhism and even a little Hinduism. 00:14:45.879 --> 00:14:51.120 you know, pre -Hindu Vedic frequencies. I have 00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:54.340 a morning chanting practice that I do on a daily 00:14:54.340 --> 00:14:58.980 basis. It takes about 30 minutes. I am in an 00:14:58.980 --> 00:15:01.379 active relationship with sound and with music 00:15:01.379 --> 00:15:03.200 and always have been, but I've been more intentional 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:07.259 about that. So yeah, I'm a multi -hyphenate being. 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:14.299 I am radically other. What do you mean by that? 00:15:14.830 --> 00:15:16.929 I've been listening to this really brilliant 00:15:16.929 --> 00:15:20.370 man named Bayo Akomolafe, who I highly recommend 00:15:20.370 --> 00:15:26.149 looking him up. He's Nigerian. And he speaks 00:15:26.149 --> 00:15:31.070 about how, he says this radical, makes this radical 00:15:31.070 --> 00:15:33.570 claim, which I find increasingly true, which 00:15:33.570 --> 00:15:36.250 is that I am not an individual in the sense that 00:15:36.250 --> 00:15:39.250 we think of individuals in modernity. Like, I 00:15:39.250 --> 00:15:44.399 cannot, I cannot excavate myself from... the 00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:48.179 processes that unfold me and I'm writing about 00:15:48.179 --> 00:15:49.740 this I'm writing a book now I'm writing about 00:15:49.740 --> 00:15:52.080 this and I talk about like you know I had this 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:54.120 encounter with someone who accused me of being 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:58.080 anti -black who accused me of not of not standing 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:02.600 with my own quote -unquote and I really I mean 00:16:02.600 --> 00:16:05.200 my whole life has been a meditation on this but 00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:07.559 this was a flashpoint of like what does it what 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:09.360 does what does that mean what does the concept 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:12.580 of my own mean like who's the first homo sapien 00:16:12.580 --> 00:16:15.519 to utter the words my own to utter that phrase 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:20.460 like my name i am called chloe because my parents 00:16:20.460 --> 00:16:23.759 fell in love with the chloe perfume in france 00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:28.720 which means that the sound that invokes me right 00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:33.259 the name that summons me into being was in part 00:16:33.259 --> 00:16:37.440 formed in relationship between my parents, between 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:40.399 these two entrepreneurs who created Chloe Perfume, 00:16:40.460 --> 00:16:44.059 between Rose and Amber Wood and Honey, you know, 00:16:44.059 --> 00:16:46.500 between the actual aromas and fragrances and 00:16:46.500 --> 00:16:49.480 plants that went into creating this perfume. 00:16:49.779 --> 00:16:54.769 So who is my own? Am I French? Yes. Am I Rose? 00:16:55.149 --> 00:16:59.950 Yes. Am I Port City of New Orleans? Yes. That's 00:16:59.950 --> 00:17:03.470 what I mean when I say radically other. And I'm 00:17:03.470 --> 00:17:06.769 like, I'm finally, I'm so grateful to have the 00:17:06.769 --> 00:17:11.890 language, like to feel the language flowing through 00:17:11.890 --> 00:17:13.849 me to be able to articulate this. It feels really 00:17:13.849 --> 00:17:18.829 exciting for me to just talk about, to talk about 00:17:18.829 --> 00:17:22.339 this in this way. Yeah, what's so exciting to 00:17:22.339 --> 00:17:26.440 you about that? It just feels true. It feels 00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:30.180 so true, but also enchanting. Like it's something 00:17:30.180 --> 00:17:33.700 incredibly, like that is enchantment. And it's 00:17:33.700 --> 00:17:35.240 sort of like the theory of enchantment has been 00:17:35.240 --> 00:17:38.539 that compass that has been pointing me towards 00:17:38.539 --> 00:17:44.240 this kind of being for a very long time. And 00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:46.339 I feel like I'm getting into, not that theory 00:17:46.339 --> 00:17:47.740 of enchantment wasn't a practice. There have 00:17:47.740 --> 00:17:49.960 always been practices. You know, there's a course. 00:17:50.220 --> 00:17:53.500 But I'm in, at this point in my life, I'm at 00:17:53.500 --> 00:17:57.259 the point where it's becoming deeper. It's becoming 00:17:57.259 --> 00:18:02.660 more practice and theory of enchantment. It's 00:18:02.660 --> 00:18:05.059 becoming like, oh, should I get rid of the theory 00:18:05.059 --> 00:18:08.019 of part and change it to enchantment? Like, do 00:18:08.019 --> 00:18:12.940 I have the audacity to do that? You know, so 00:18:12.940 --> 00:18:19.240 it feels very much alive and it feels true, not 00:18:19.240 --> 00:18:24.440 in a dogmatic sense. Right. But in a. In a way 00:18:24.440 --> 00:18:26.380 that I said this to myself earlier today, like, 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:28.500 oh, actually, I'm finding that the truth is very 00:18:28.500 --> 00:18:33.220 exquisite. The truth is very exquisite. And that 00:18:33.220 --> 00:18:36.099 isn't to say that it's, you know, toxic, toxically 00:18:36.099 --> 00:18:42.109 positive, but the truth is exquisite. Yeah. Yeah. 00:18:42.230 --> 00:18:47.009 Truth to me has always, well, I've kind of had 00:18:47.009 --> 00:18:50.170 an allergy to truth when it becomes dogmatic, 00:18:50.390 --> 00:18:55.670 you know. However, truth to me has always resonated 00:18:55.670 --> 00:18:59.829 as expansive. Yes. You know, like this is something 00:18:59.829 --> 00:19:04.329 I can endlessly explore. Like the Christian mystics 00:19:04.329 --> 00:19:08.930 would, they would say that we are all one with 00:19:08.930 --> 00:19:12.960 God. in a sense. And the spiritual journey is 00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:17.119 to awaken more and more to who we already are. 00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:24.140 But that is an endless journey deeper into your 00:19:24.140 --> 00:19:28.619 own. Is this your own dance with the divine? 00:19:28.859 --> 00:19:32.960 So there's truth, but then that itself is its 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:37.259 own portal to self -discovery, to the Franciscans 00:19:37.259 --> 00:19:40.680 really elevate the discovery of creation, the 00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:43.960 discovery of matter, the divine really permeating 00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:48.539 all matter. So, yeah, yeah. I did want to ask 00:19:48.539 --> 00:19:51.819 you, Theory of Enchantment, that name, for you, 00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:55.220 what is the... What is the depth of meaning behind 00:19:55.220 --> 00:19:57.579 that? So I originally picked that name because 00:19:57.579 --> 00:20:01.619 when I wrote the thesis, I was reading all these 00:20:01.619 --> 00:20:05.299 books about pop culture because I'm enamored. 00:20:05.619 --> 00:20:08.480 I mean, I was more back then than I am now, but 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:10.740 back then I was enamored with pop culture. I 00:20:10.740 --> 00:20:14.640 was enamored with the observation that we as 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:17.759 human beings gravitate towards certain pop culture 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:23.519 brands like Nike and Beyonce and Disney. Apple. 00:20:23.700 --> 00:20:27.019 And I read a book by Guy Kawasaki, the former 00:20:27.019 --> 00:20:29.319 marketing director of Apple, called Enchantment. 00:20:29.460 --> 00:20:32.519 And it was about how Steve Jobs designed these 00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:37.680 really elegant products. And for whatever reason, 00:20:37.740 --> 00:20:40.619 that word just captured, also because it's associated 00:20:40.619 --> 00:20:44.720 with Disney, it's magic, you know, that word 00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:49.980 captured, most closely approximated the feeling 00:20:49.980 --> 00:20:56.549 I was trying to communicate. And today, my relationship 00:20:56.549 --> 00:21:00.769 with, I mean, you know, it's a constantly unfolding, 00:21:01.089 --> 00:21:05.730 constantly becoming practice. Today, that word 00:21:05.730 --> 00:21:08.910 is even more deeply resonant with me because 00:21:08.910 --> 00:21:12.430 there's song in the word enchantment. To enchant 00:21:12.430 --> 00:21:16.150 is to chant. Chant is the tree trunk of that 00:21:16.150 --> 00:21:18.250 word, actually. Now that I have a daily chanting 00:21:18.250 --> 00:21:22.859 practice and I'm in an active sort of, what is 00:21:22.859 --> 00:21:28.519 it devotional relationship with music and sound 00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:32.259 and voice it means even more that word means 00:21:32.259 --> 00:21:35.160 even more to me than it did when I first you 00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:38.200 know plucked it to signify this thing that I 00:21:38.200 --> 00:21:42.779 was trying to create absolutely yeah sound has 00:21:42.779 --> 00:21:47.640 always been a really interesting metaphor for 00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:52.460 me like Like St. Bonaventure, Franciscan theologian, 00:21:52.460 --> 00:21:56.839 he played with this idea of fontalis plenitudo, 00:21:57.039 --> 00:22:01.500 which is fountain fullness. So at the very core 00:22:01.500 --> 00:22:07.160 of reality is love and goodness, self -giving 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:11.660 of itself into creation, into this moment, into 00:22:11.660 --> 00:22:15.259 our lives, into our loved ones. And this is something 00:22:15.259 --> 00:22:19.400 that we get to swim in. For me, when I sound 00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:23.119 feels like that to me, because it's, it's rising 00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:26.160 up, you know, it's rising up from this place 00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:31.420 and it is there to be received into enter into. 00:22:32.119 --> 00:22:35.299 And maybe you sing, maybe you dance, maybe you 00:22:35.299 --> 00:22:39.500 just listen. However, it is such that for me, 00:22:39.539 --> 00:22:41.500 it's always just been such a striking metaphor 00:22:41.500 --> 00:22:45.299 of. what reality what i believe reality to be 00:22:45.299 --> 00:22:47.720 metaphysically do you have any thoughts there 00:22:47.720 --> 00:22:50.380 any anything you would push back on or add i'm 00:22:50.380 --> 00:22:52.420 not pushed back i don't think i would push back 00:22:52.420 --> 00:22:56.519 on it but the vedas the vedic tradition and even 00:22:56.519 --> 00:22:58.980 like i think this is pre -hindu and the pre i 00:22:58.980 --> 00:23:02.180 was taught this by a very beautiful teacher then 00:23:02.180 --> 00:23:06.359 the pre -hindu vedas vedic tradition god is sound 00:23:06.359 --> 00:23:10.240 there's endless implication to that um and it 00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:13.990 it This has changed my relationship with Judaism 00:23:13.990 --> 00:23:16.650 and with Christianity and with all these other 00:23:16.650 --> 00:23:23.869 wisdom traditions that enfold me. And it also 00:23:23.869 --> 00:23:29.910 has made me get really sincere and more serious 00:23:29.910 --> 00:23:37.450 about my voice and how I would like to become... 00:23:37.869 --> 00:23:40.650 Become open enough. And surrendered enough. For 00:23:40.650 --> 00:23:43.930 whatever wants to come through vocally. So that 00:23:43.930 --> 00:23:46.150 whatever wants to come through vocally can. I 00:23:46.150 --> 00:23:49.730 know that as human beings. We can be very. Very 00:23:49.730 --> 00:23:55.509 shy. I know I can. Insecure about my voice. And 00:23:55.509 --> 00:23:58.730 I have this really beautiful. Vocal coach named 00:23:58.730 --> 00:24:01.309 Maren Azar. Who has taught me a lot of these 00:24:01.309 --> 00:24:07.400 things. And. She says. It's not that big of a 00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:11.599 deal. You're attaching too much ego to it. It 00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:15.579 is both the fabric of creation itself, sound, 00:24:15.960 --> 00:24:19.740 is the fabric of creation itself, and therefore 00:24:19.740 --> 00:24:24.339 not this thing to get caught up in. Do I sound 00:24:24.339 --> 00:24:27.240 good when I sing? Am I performing? It's precisely 00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:31.619 because it is the fabric of reality itself is 00:24:31.619 --> 00:24:36.039 why you wouldn't relate to it in that way. I 00:24:36.039 --> 00:24:37.980 can go on and on, but that, those are some of 00:24:37.980 --> 00:24:43.519 my thoughts. Yeah, no, I love, I mean, it's, 00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:48.240 as you're talking, it's like, it's like that 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:52.099 sound is within you already, you know, like there, 00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:54.619 there's this coming back to truth again. Like 00:24:54.619 --> 00:24:59.559 there is this exquisite truth within you meant 00:24:59.559 --> 00:25:05.470 to be released. In its own timing. Yes. In the 00:25:05.470 --> 00:25:08.589 second we begin to measure it or judge it or 00:25:08.589 --> 00:25:12.029 quantify it, it's almost as if we kind of strip 00:25:12.029 --> 00:25:16.369 it of its beauty a little bit. Well, it disappears, 00:25:17.390 --> 00:25:20.809 right? This is like, this is the nature. One 00:25:20.809 --> 00:25:25.190 time I have a relationship with psilocybin. And 00:25:25.190 --> 00:25:31.309 one time I took psilocybin and I channeled a 00:25:31.309 --> 00:25:33.650 song and I called it The Lord. And it literally 00:25:33.650 --> 00:25:36.410 came through. And this song, I'll send it to 00:25:36.410 --> 00:25:38.490 you. It's on my SoundCloud. And it's completely 00:25:38.490 --> 00:25:42.890 acapella, so just be prepared. But this song 00:25:42.890 --> 00:25:47.789 is me describing the manifestations of God. And 00:25:47.789 --> 00:25:52.500 it's me in conversation with God. God goddess 00:25:52.500 --> 00:25:55.940 is saying, I am neither silence nor sound. I 00:25:55.940 --> 00:25:59.460 am neither this nor that, you know, and it's, 00:25:59.460 --> 00:26:02.059 and it's me having a conversation with that being, 00:26:02.119 --> 00:26:06.440 being like, yes, but I am in human form and I 00:26:06.440 --> 00:26:11.339 need, because I am not, because I am not a winter 00:26:11.339 --> 00:26:16.059 storm, right? I am not like, I need anchoring. 00:26:16.059 --> 00:26:21.000 I need you. to anchor me I need you to show up 00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:23.099 in a in a full and it was it was a song that 00:26:23.099 --> 00:26:25.859 is truly a prayer um and I need to memorize it 00:26:25.859 --> 00:26:27.819 because I would love to perform it one day um 00:26:27.819 --> 00:26:30.279 and it's really beautiful you'll hear it because 00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:34.019 I was I resolve it in a way by accepting the 00:26:34.019 --> 00:26:36.460 ultimately unresolvable nature of the question 00:26:36.460 --> 00:26:39.079 which is a very Roka you know like thing to do 00:26:39.079 --> 00:26:47.200 I I ended by the lyric is um like something like 00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:50.619 it cannot be captured the truth in words that 00:26:50.619 --> 00:26:54.500 simply cannot capture the lord however because 00:26:54.500 --> 00:26:57.039 i'm singing it i'm not saying it you'll you'll 00:26:57.039 --> 00:26:59.180 hear it when you listen to it because i'm singing 00:26:59.180 --> 00:27:03.339 this it makes it resolve because while the words 00:27:03.339 --> 00:27:06.319 can't capture the lord the song does like the 00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:10.640 the fundamentally ineffable immaterial yet very 00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:15.279 physically present That sound is actually, that 00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:21.819 paradox is what captures the Lord. Yes. Yeah. 00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:26.279 I love that so much. Yeah, because a lot of mystics 00:27:26.279 --> 00:27:30.579 would say, like, we are, you know, like, I don't 00:27:30.579 --> 00:27:31.920 know if you're familiar with the philosopher 00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:35.680 Peter Rollins, but he has a great quote. It's 00:27:35.680 --> 00:27:40.339 something along the lines of, God is that whom 00:27:40.339 --> 00:27:44.819 we cannot name. However, whom we should never 00:27:44.819 --> 00:27:51.259 stop speaking. Yes. It's this dance of, if I'm 00:27:51.259 --> 00:27:56.440 tracking with you, it's this dance of, we know 00:27:56.440 --> 00:28:00.160 the song is going to fall short of fully capturing 00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:06.799 the ineffable. However, gosh dang it, you still 00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:10.380 have to sing it. It also comes very close. It 00:28:10.380 --> 00:28:13.880 comes closer. Song is closer, in my experience. 00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:18.519 Song is closer to the divine than mere words. 00:28:18.619 --> 00:28:24.920 There are some people, like poets, who can come 00:28:24.920 --> 00:28:30.680 very close simply by speaking. But generally 00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:35.700 speaking, I would say, for me, sound is closer. 00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:40.200 Dance is closer. probably my first language and 00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:43.960 is closer, could never fully approximate, but 00:28:43.960 --> 00:28:48.099 can satisfy my yearning for the experience of 00:28:48.099 --> 00:28:51.240 the ineffable for sure. Yeah. Experience is such 00:28:51.240 --> 00:28:53.839 an important word too. You know, it's something 00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:58.200 to be entered into. Yes. Yes, exactly. Yeah. 00:28:58.259 --> 00:29:01.700 Well, I think listeners are already seeing the 00:29:01.700 --> 00:29:04.779 depth of that word enchantment. You know, I mean, 00:29:04.779 --> 00:29:07.740 there's wonder there. There is awe. There is 00:29:07.740 --> 00:29:11.599 a spirituality, a journey, an experience, a theology 00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:15.200 even, if you will, an anthropology too. Definitely 00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:18.279 anthropology. Yeah, the wonder. Yeah, you want 00:29:18.279 --> 00:29:20.000 to go into that, by the way? You kind of lit 00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:22.880 up when I said that. Yeah. I was just going to 00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:25.059 make a joke that I'm sure in a previous life 00:29:25.059 --> 00:29:29.279 I was an anthropologist. I feel that deeply. 00:29:29.819 --> 00:29:33.160 I feel that deeply. Some of my most favorite 00:29:33.160 --> 00:29:36.279 thinkers and writers are anthropologists or ecologists, 00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:38.700 people who are deeply in touch with the more 00:29:38.700 --> 00:29:42.279 -than -human world and very deeply in touch with 00:29:42.279 --> 00:29:43.900 how the more -than -human world has shaped us 00:29:43.900 --> 00:29:48.380 as human beings. I live for that. Well, even... 00:29:48.829 --> 00:29:51.730 Even the first principle of theory of enchantment, 00:29:51.730 --> 00:29:54.970 I mean, it has such anthropological depth that 00:29:54.970 --> 00:29:58.049 treat people like human beings, not political 00:29:58.049 --> 00:30:02.809 abstractions. So I'm curious if you can take 00:30:02.809 --> 00:30:06.589 this in your own direction. But when I hear that 00:30:06.589 --> 00:30:10.369 and meditate upon it, it's like, yeah, this person 00:30:10.369 --> 00:30:14.240 who I may disagree with. this person who maybe 00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:19.420 is absolutely maddening to me, that is a person 00:30:19.420 --> 00:30:23.559 with a heart and a soul and a mind. And all of 00:30:23.559 --> 00:30:26.819 these things have been crafted and formed in 00:30:26.819 --> 00:30:30.680 their own experiences, experiences that may have 00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:34.039 been very painful or traumatic. And therefore, 00:30:34.619 --> 00:30:37.940 how can I cheapen that person to a political 00:30:37.940 --> 00:30:41.359 abstraction? The person in front of me is pure 00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:45.480 wonder. There's a story there. What are your 00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:50.640 thoughts and what would you add? There's a, someone 00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:54.880 recently, I think it was actually Bayo Akomolafe 00:30:54.880 --> 00:30:58.019 in an interview with someone, both of them realized 00:30:58.019 --> 00:31:00.720 that it's very actually difficult, deeply difficult 00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:03.000 for us as human beings to be in relationship 00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:07.259 with the mystery, with the great mystery, right? 00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:09.420 And one of the first things I always teach in 00:31:09.420 --> 00:31:14.400 my workshops. When I'm speaking about racism 00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:20.119 and what causes it and how it develops within 00:31:20.119 --> 00:31:23.720 us, between us, I talk about our inability to 00:31:23.720 --> 00:31:27.039 be in relationship with darkness. And I'm actually 00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:31.039 curious to get, I need to know what the Christian 00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:33.900 mystics thought of this because within the context 00:31:33.900 --> 00:31:37.619 of traditional Christianity, darkness is banished. 00:31:37.619 --> 00:31:41.890 There's a split, right? Darkness is perceived 00:31:41.890 --> 00:31:45.930 as evil, as a thing that must be defeated, that 00:31:45.930 --> 00:31:49.509 must be overcome. And there's this, in a lot 00:31:49.509 --> 00:31:51.970 of mystical traditions, no matter which tradition, 00:31:52.150 --> 00:31:54.569 whether it's Judaism or Buddhism, whatever, in 00:31:54.569 --> 00:31:56.950 a lot of mystical traditions, there's this other... 00:31:57.789 --> 00:31:59.970 idea which can be found in the book of isaiah 00:31:59.970 --> 00:32:01.970 actually it's the only scripture in the bible 00:32:01.970 --> 00:32:04.349 that i've found that that comes close to this 00:32:04.349 --> 00:32:07.990 there's a text in isaiah where god says behold 00:32:07.990 --> 00:32:13.410 i create light and darkness good and evil i alone 00:32:13.410 --> 00:32:21.109 do this it's the most daoist like text in that 00:32:21.109 --> 00:32:26.630 i've come across in in the bible and so All of 00:32:26.630 --> 00:32:29.410 this is to say, many of my lectures and workshops 00:32:29.410 --> 00:32:33.049 have started out with an invitation for people 00:32:33.049 --> 00:32:36.190 to get in relationship with mystery, which is 00:32:36.190 --> 00:32:40.750 to say with darkness. With the darkness within 00:32:40.750 --> 00:32:44.369 their own being, which can never be fully comprehended, 00:32:44.490 --> 00:32:50.529 which can never be fully extricated or controlled 00:32:50.529 --> 00:32:53.609 or isolated in the scientific sense of the word. 00:32:54.589 --> 00:33:00.089 um incarcerated can never be fully pinned down 00:33:00.089 --> 00:33:05.589 and then i use that as a launching pad to talk 00:33:05.589 --> 00:33:08.630 about racism because racism in the american context 00:33:08.630 --> 00:33:15.380 is an inability to to take in the darker brother, 00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:18.400 right? The darker sister, which is just a reflection 00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:21.359 of being unable to absorb or be in relationship 00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:24.799 with your own darkness, right? It manifests in 00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:28.359 the European context as, historically speaking, 00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:31.380 Christians not being able to take in the Jewish 00:33:31.380 --> 00:33:36.160 brother. It manifests also as, which I find this 00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:41.039 fun fact fascinating, as Protestant Europeans 00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:46.259 not being able to take in Italians, right? And 00:33:46.259 --> 00:33:50.359 vice versa, of course, British and Irish. It 00:33:50.359 --> 00:33:52.299 doesn't matter. Like the shape -shifting nature 00:33:52.299 --> 00:33:54.900 of darkness has nothing to do actually with skin 00:33:54.900 --> 00:34:00.180 color, right? Rather, it is an orientation. It 00:34:00.180 --> 00:34:03.660 is a relationship that one has not been able 00:34:03.660 --> 00:34:08.489 to enter into with oneself. I have no idea. I 00:34:08.489 --> 00:34:10.389 don't remember what your question was. There 00:34:10.389 --> 00:34:14.289 probably wasn't one. No, there was. I think there 00:34:14.289 --> 00:34:18.050 was. It was probably just me word vomiting and 00:34:18.050 --> 00:34:20.969 saying, hey, what do you think about that? That's 00:34:20.969 --> 00:34:22.469 almost my question. That's what I think about 00:34:22.469 --> 00:34:24.429 it. Yeah, that's what I think about it. Yeah, 00:34:24.429 --> 00:34:28.610 well, even in the Christian tradition, I mean, 00:34:28.670 --> 00:34:34.030 one reading of the crucifixion would be that 00:34:34.030 --> 00:34:37.260 this man was a scapegoat. you know that this 00:34:37.260 --> 00:34:40.239 yeah this jewish man gerard that's like renee 00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:44.860 gerard's whole like thesis yeah yes exactly and 00:34:44.860 --> 00:34:47.539 and it's what you said is that it is an inability 00:34:47.539 --> 00:34:52.719 to deal with one's own darkness one one's own 00:34:52.719 --> 00:34:56.559 uncertainty one zone like this guy is coming 00:34:56.559 --> 00:34:59.360 about and he is like kind of pushing all the 00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:03.380 buttons and he's Asking me to rethink like how, 00:35:03.500 --> 00:35:07.179 who God is and how like my dance with God should 00:35:07.179 --> 00:35:11.820 be. And I, I'm not ready to hear that yet. Like, 00:35:11.820 --> 00:35:14.099 because I can't deal with that within myself. 00:35:14.539 --> 00:35:18.059 Therefore we need to scapegoat them. But yeah, 00:35:18.139 --> 00:35:21.579 I, what you're talking about, I mean, I see it 00:35:21.579 --> 00:35:23.920 on display in our political environment too. 00:35:24.019 --> 00:35:27.639 I mean, so much of the hatred and the vitriol. 00:35:28.969 --> 00:35:32.489 It comes down to, I think, our own inability 00:35:32.489 --> 00:35:40.889 to accept those more complex, darker, frustrating 00:35:40.889 --> 00:35:44.849 things within ourselves that lack resolve. And 00:35:44.849 --> 00:35:51.670 so we have to kind of lash out rather than go 00:35:51.670 --> 00:35:54.230 inward. Not have to, but you know what I'm saying. 00:35:54.389 --> 00:35:57.030 Not have to. That is the knee -jerk response. 00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:01.539 lash out because I'm afraid of this thing within 00:36:01.539 --> 00:36:04.119 me. And it's not just individual. And this is 00:36:04.119 --> 00:36:06.960 like a new download I've been having lately that 00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:09.519 I think is really important to bring in. And 00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:11.760 it's important to bring in because for me, it 00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:18.440 gives me, it takes away guilt because growing 00:36:18.440 --> 00:36:21.260 up in a very dogmatic Protestant home. And there 00:36:21.260 --> 00:36:23.500 were many gifts and spiritual teachings that 00:36:23.500 --> 00:36:26.380 I received from my upbringing. But it was dogmatic. 00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:34.780 Growing up in this home, there was a kind of 00:36:34.780 --> 00:36:43.360 guilt that I felt. And a kind of constantly being 00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:48.639 surveilled and self -surveilling to make sure 00:36:48.639 --> 00:36:52.969 I was good. To make sure I was showing up pure, 00:36:53.110 --> 00:36:55.869 which is the Puritan. And it's not just my home. 00:36:55.889 --> 00:36:59.210 It's the entire American ethos. America is deeply 00:36:59.210 --> 00:37:04.989 because it was formed by Puritans. And the problem, 00:37:05.170 --> 00:37:07.610 many problems with that. But the problem, one 00:37:07.610 --> 00:37:09.829 of the problems that fascinates me is that the 00:37:09.829 --> 00:37:15.590 individual human being cannot take that on. The 00:37:15.590 --> 00:37:20.170 individual human being cannot take on. surmount 00:37:20.170 --> 00:37:30.269 the level of guilt shame etc that informs them 00:37:30.269 --> 00:37:34.050 if they remain if I I'll speak with I statements 00:37:34.050 --> 00:37:37.369 if I remain firmly ensconced in such a paradigm 00:37:37.369 --> 00:37:41.829 like that that will ultimately kill me that that 00:37:41.829 --> 00:37:45.070 paradigm will ultimately be my undoing and so 00:37:45.070 --> 00:37:51.190 what I have uh slowly but surely come to discover 00:37:51.190 --> 00:37:56.550 is is that there's this like lowercase s and 00:37:56.550 --> 00:37:59.869 I'm saying lowercase as a way as a way to actually 00:37:59.869 --> 00:38:02.909 honor the lowercase right there's there's a lowercase 00:38:02.909 --> 00:38:10.449 s salvation in knowing that I am not merely the 00:38:10.449 --> 00:38:15.250 atomized individual I think I am which is to 00:38:15.250 --> 00:38:21.130 say that If I am overcome in moments where I 00:38:21.130 --> 00:38:23.030 am triggered by someone who says something to 00:38:23.030 --> 00:38:29.010 me that's very harmful or very painful, if I 00:38:29.010 --> 00:38:33.570 am triggered in moments to think other of them, 00:38:33.610 --> 00:38:36.730 think lowly of them, to condescend to them, think 00:38:36.730 --> 00:38:40.670 supremacist, which is a compensation for smallness, 00:38:40.849 --> 00:38:46.420 I don't need to experience that as me. becoming 00:38:46.420 --> 00:38:49.559 a supremacist right I can experience that as 00:38:49.559 --> 00:38:53.360 the winds of supremacy just just move through 00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:58.280 me right like I don't need to actually identify 00:38:58.280 --> 00:39:01.760 that as me I don't need to identify that as my 00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:06.360 own I don't need to take on the full you know 00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:09.960 I don't need to become superman in my relationship 00:39:11.230 --> 00:39:14.329 to that and i've been really meditating on that 00:39:14.329 --> 00:39:17.710 lately and it's been it's been a bomb for me 00:39:17.710 --> 00:39:21.090 and it's been a salve which is funny because 00:39:21.090 --> 00:39:23.010 it's related to the word salvation it's been 00:39:23.010 --> 00:39:26.130 a salve for me and it's been medicine for me 00:39:26.130 --> 00:39:31.250 to really take that in yeah oh my gosh um i have 00:39:31.250 --> 00:39:38.230 so many questions oh where to begin um I'm trying 00:39:38.230 --> 00:39:41.449 to somehow succinctly bring together what you 00:39:41.449 --> 00:39:45.530 just said, and I'm struggling to do so. Well, 00:39:45.570 --> 00:39:50.329 can I offer something? Okay, so I can try to 00:39:50.329 --> 00:39:55.090 clarify the thread or, like, show the thread, 00:39:55.130 --> 00:39:57.230 reveal the thread. Treat people like human beings. 00:39:57.510 --> 00:40:00.250 What is a human being? A homo sapien, right? 00:40:00.269 --> 00:40:04.199 A mammal, right? We have... these aspects of 00:40:04.199 --> 00:40:06.380 our nervous systems that are millions of years 00:40:06.380 --> 00:40:08.099 old that we have absolutely no control over. 00:40:10.039 --> 00:40:15.579 So, you know, the, what is it? I haven't spoken 00:40:15.579 --> 00:40:17.559 about this in a while, so bear with me. But there 00:40:17.559 --> 00:40:20.019 are parts of my nervous system that bring me 00:40:20.019 --> 00:40:23.380 into fight or flight that I have no control over, 00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:26.739 that are 300 million years old in the evolutionary 00:40:26.739 --> 00:40:29.699 timetable, right? That evolved when I was somewhere, 00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:33.480 I don't know, as a as a Impala in the African 00:40:33.480 --> 00:40:37.460 Savannah, like there are, there are parts of 00:40:37.460 --> 00:40:40.880 me that are not mine, right. That's, but that's 00:40:40.880 --> 00:40:43.760 still shaped me and move me. And that is actually 00:40:43.760 --> 00:40:46.460 what it means to be a human being. And so to 00:40:46.460 --> 00:40:50.019 treat people like human beings is a very deep, 00:40:50.079 --> 00:40:55.289 I said to someone the other day, It takes several 00:40:55.289 --> 00:40:58.030 years to learn the first principle of the theory 00:40:58.030 --> 00:41:01.730 of enchantment, and I am still learning it. Before 00:41:01.730 --> 00:41:05.429 we get into the second, it takes years to learn 00:41:05.429 --> 00:41:08.849 the first principle. So is that helpful? Does 00:41:08.849 --> 00:41:13.050 that tease it out? Absolutely, it is. And I think 00:41:13.050 --> 00:41:16.610 that, I mean, when you hear those three principles 00:41:16.610 --> 00:41:19.630 from the theory of enchantment, it obviously 00:41:19.630 --> 00:41:23.869 invites you into a lot of inner work. an introspection. 00:41:24.469 --> 00:41:27.769 However, I think what you're saying is so important 00:41:27.769 --> 00:41:30.889 for anyone on their spiritual journey, because 00:41:30.889 --> 00:41:36.969 I think there's a real danger to introspection 00:41:36.969 --> 00:41:41.489 if you don't have the awareness that you're speaking 00:41:41.489 --> 00:41:47.590 about. Because at least for me, I can very easily 00:41:47.590 --> 00:41:51.909 begin to judge myself in that introspection. 00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:57.420 And like you said, this must be who I am. I went 00:41:57.420 --> 00:42:00.840 in and found this. Like, oh my gosh, now I feel 00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:03.500 worse. Like now I went on the spiritual journey. 00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:07.800 And now I'm right back at my fundamentalist roots. 00:42:07.940 --> 00:42:10.000 I have a similar Christian background that you 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:13.659 do. And now I'm judging myself again. So now 00:42:13.659 --> 00:42:16.519 I feel worse even though I'm trying to go in. 00:42:19.389 --> 00:42:23.969 I think that that detachment is so important 00:42:23.969 --> 00:42:28.730 that, hey, maybe this anxiety, maybe this depression, 00:42:29.110 --> 00:42:31.349 maybe this fill -in -the -blank whatever, maybe 00:42:31.349 --> 00:42:35.510 this isn't mine. Maybe this was passed on to 00:42:35.510 --> 00:42:41.130 me. It's still worth getting curious about. But 00:42:41.130 --> 00:42:43.809 it's almost like that cushion of grace allows 00:42:43.809 --> 00:42:46.670 me to get even more curious about it and go deeper. 00:42:47.389 --> 00:42:49.389 Because I'm leaving the self -judgment behind. 00:42:49.710 --> 00:42:53.750 Am I tracking there? For sure. A hundred percent. 00:42:53.929 --> 00:42:56.349 A hundred percent. Yeah. No, it's really great. 00:42:56.409 --> 00:43:00.530 Really beautiful. The ways in which I have discovered 00:43:00.530 --> 00:43:04.489 that anger, depression, I always say melancholy 00:43:04.489 --> 00:43:07.150 is a very beautiful sister of mine. I actually 00:43:07.150 --> 00:43:09.690 recently wrote this in a sub stack. I've felt 00:43:09.690 --> 00:43:12.130 melancholy all my life, like since I can remember. 00:43:14.440 --> 00:43:19.579 And I struggled with that. She's a tough teacher, 00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:24.739 I have found. But the fact that I'm able to speak 00:43:24.739 --> 00:43:26.960 of her as a teacher, to speak of her as a person 00:43:26.960 --> 00:43:31.800 or whatever, a force, as a her, is a testament 00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:37.739 to my travels along this spiritual journey I 00:43:37.739 --> 00:43:42.329 have been on. There's a way in which... What 00:43:42.329 --> 00:43:46.250 I am really calling for is devotion, right? This 00:43:46.250 --> 00:43:50.550 orientation of devotion to whatever greets you. 00:43:50.809 --> 00:43:54.369 And Rumi spoke about this, you know, in his poetry. 00:43:55.650 --> 00:44:00.530 And many other great poets and artists have spoken 00:44:00.530 --> 00:44:03.070 about this or have expressed this in their work. 00:44:03.170 --> 00:44:06.269 The invitation here is when you feel depression. 00:44:07.320 --> 00:44:10.239 as an example, and think of the embodied language 00:44:10.239 --> 00:44:13.940 of that, to push down, right, when you feel contracted, 00:44:14.139 --> 00:44:21.059 is to experience it as an invitation to commune 00:44:21.059 --> 00:44:24.559 with that force that is depression, right, and 00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:31.550 to consider that maybe the proper response to 00:44:31.550 --> 00:44:33.989 depression, and even to take something even more 00:44:33.989 --> 00:44:36.690 radical here, to supremacy, let's say the force 00:44:36.690 --> 00:44:40.630 of supremacy that moves through us as human beings. 00:44:40.809 --> 00:44:43.150 Can you define that real quick, by the way? I've 00:44:43.150 --> 00:44:45.110 heard you talk about it before, but how would 00:44:45.110 --> 00:44:49.130 you describe this force of supremacy that blows 00:44:49.130 --> 00:44:52.389 its way into all of our lives in some way? Yeah, 00:44:52.409 --> 00:44:56.750 I'm still learning the, you know, I can tell 00:44:56.750 --> 00:44:59.469 you the sort of psychological. I can try to explain 00:44:59.469 --> 00:45:01.809 psychological language of it. The psychological 00:45:01.809 --> 00:45:06.250 narrative of it is when I feel small and I don't 00:45:06.250 --> 00:45:08.690 know how to deal with my smallness, I project 00:45:08.690 --> 00:45:11.730 that smallness outward onto you, right? As a 00:45:11.730 --> 00:45:15.929 way to protect myself from the pain of feeling 00:45:15.929 --> 00:45:20.030 small. That's a psychological narrative. There 00:45:20.030 --> 00:45:24.119 is an unfolding happening. in me that is going 00:45:24.119 --> 00:45:26.500 beyond the psychological which the psychological 00:45:26.500 --> 00:45:29.679 is is has been an incredible the realm of psychology 00:45:29.679 --> 00:45:32.900 has been such a deep teacher uh for me and i'm 00:45:32.900 --> 00:45:37.179 so grateful to that realm and that realm centers 00:45:37.179 --> 00:45:40.519 or reifies this idea of human beings as individuals 00:45:40.519 --> 00:45:43.599 it's like solitary right individuals and so to 00:45:43.599 --> 00:45:46.420 go beyond to attempt to go beyond so that's what 00:45:46.420 --> 00:45:48.659 i mean when i say like what is the force of supremacy 00:45:48.659 --> 00:45:55.559 as it exists outside of my limited being and 00:45:55.559 --> 00:45:58.940 and and it's it's an invitation to change the 00:45:58.940 --> 00:46:01.940 the mate to ask a different question about who 00:46:01.940 --> 00:46:05.519 is the main character here to to uh place yourself 00:46:05.519 --> 00:46:08.940 in the narrative where you're not the main character 00:46:08.940 --> 00:46:14.079 in a radical way in a radical way yes which um 00:46:14.079 --> 00:46:19.880 that would allow you to get more curious about 00:46:19.880 --> 00:46:22.880 some of the other things that are pulling the 00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:25.960 strings in ways that you didn't know. Correct? 00:46:26.239 --> 00:46:30.239 And that you have no control over. Right. And 00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:32.320 that you have no control over, which is the, 00:46:32.440 --> 00:46:37.199 and that is the portal to grace. That's the portal 00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:43.440 to grace. The total surrender to the forces. 00:46:44.250 --> 00:46:46.829 that enfold you the fact that there are winds 00:46:46.829 --> 00:46:50.010 that carry pollen and viruses to new york city 00:46:50.010 --> 00:46:54.309 every spring that will end up inside the respiratory 00:46:54.309 --> 00:46:58.670 uh you know systems of some of us totally beyond 00:46:58.670 --> 00:47:03.369 our control right there's a there's a again not 00:47:03.369 --> 00:47:08.090 toxic positivity right this is like it is it 00:47:08.090 --> 00:47:13.710 has become so gracious for me to meditate On 00:47:13.710 --> 00:47:16.650 my on how I am enfolded by all of these forces 00:47:16.650 --> 00:47:19.050 that bring melancholy and joy and depression 00:47:19.050 --> 00:47:23.289 and anger and bitterness and the monstrous. Right. 00:47:23.349 --> 00:47:27.730 Like that is grace. Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. 00:47:27.829 --> 00:47:33.199 And speaking of grace. Is grace the thing that 00:47:33.199 --> 00:47:36.639 leads to the second principle? Like the second 00:47:36.639 --> 00:47:39.900 principle is criticized to uplift and empower. 00:47:40.519 --> 00:47:43.380 So I'm curious how the first one treat people 00:47:43.380 --> 00:47:45.699 like human beings, not political abstractions. 00:47:45.760 --> 00:47:48.099 And then the second one criticized to uplift 00:47:48.099 --> 00:47:50.800 and empower. How are those two connected? And 00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:53.619 how does the first one help make way for the 00:47:53.619 --> 00:47:56.619 second? So the second principle emerged out of 00:47:56.619 --> 00:48:00.880 a contemplation on the civil rights movement 00:48:00.880 --> 00:48:10.599 and how the movement members practiced being 00:48:10.599 --> 00:48:14.039 persecuted. They put themselves in these dojos, 00:48:14.119 --> 00:48:16.179 these training grounds, where they would simulate 00:48:16.179 --> 00:48:18.860 what would happen to them once they got into 00:48:18.860 --> 00:48:21.699 the diners they were trying to desegregate. And 00:48:21.699 --> 00:48:24.099 so they... you know, they had their peers call 00:48:24.099 --> 00:48:27.940 them terrible names and spit on them and, you 00:48:27.940 --> 00:48:30.980 know, do physical violence. So to prepare themselves 00:48:30.980 --> 00:48:34.320 for that to happen and still refuse to fight 00:48:34.320 --> 00:48:38.559 back violently. And in a way, the way that I, 00:48:38.699 --> 00:48:44.000 the way that my very cerebral brain read that, 00:48:44.019 --> 00:48:48.840 or like conclusion, summary of that was the second 00:48:48.840 --> 00:48:50.599 principle, is the second principle. It's like 00:48:50.599 --> 00:48:56.760 the person, These people are refusing to... They're 00:48:56.760 --> 00:48:58.440 protesting, but they're protesting in a way that 00:48:58.440 --> 00:49:02.519 ensures that the other is not harmed. It's also 00:49:02.519 --> 00:49:08.639 very... It's also very Jainist. I hope I'm pronouncing 00:49:08.639 --> 00:49:11.300 that correctly. It's very Buddhist, very Bodhisattva 00:49:11.300 --> 00:49:16.039 idea. And Dr. King, he went to the East and he 00:49:16.039 --> 00:49:19.789 studied a lot of Eastern... And his sort of philosophy 00:49:19.789 --> 00:49:22.909 is this combination of Protestant, Southern, 00:49:23.150 --> 00:49:30.000 Baptist, you know, Tillich theology with With 00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:34.019 Buddhism and Gandhi and all those things. So 00:49:34.019 --> 00:49:36.539 the second principle emerges out of that. I don't 00:49:36.539 --> 00:49:39.300 know if I feel very resonant with the way that 00:49:39.300 --> 00:49:42.719 is phrased today. With the way the second principle 00:49:42.719 --> 00:49:45.639 reads, I want to find a more poetic way to say 00:49:45.639 --> 00:49:47.920 it. When people hear the word criticize, they 00:49:47.920 --> 00:49:53.059 kind of contract. So it's still a possibility 00:49:53.059 --> 00:49:57.179 that that principle might change to take on more 00:49:57.179 --> 00:50:01.510 poetic language. But the idea is that once you 00:50:01.510 --> 00:50:04.750 are in a devotional practice with a great mystery 00:50:04.750 --> 00:50:08.349 of being your own and the other, which of course 00:50:08.349 --> 00:50:11.570 is the same, then naturally you will be more 00:50:11.570 --> 00:50:16.869 inclined to criticize the other in a way that 00:50:16.869 --> 00:50:20.989 takes care of them. There's actually a limit 00:50:20.989 --> 00:50:25.449 to that principle, though, I will say. There's 00:50:25.449 --> 00:50:28.030 a limit to that principle in the sense that... 00:50:29.900 --> 00:50:35.579 It doesn't leave room for the monster. And I 00:50:35.579 --> 00:50:41.199 am learning that a door must be left open for 00:50:41.199 --> 00:50:44.239 the monster. Alms must be laid at the monster's 00:50:44.239 --> 00:50:48.159 feet. And that's a hard teaching. What do you 00:50:48.159 --> 00:50:57.969 mean by that? I mean that there's a very... I 00:50:57.969 --> 00:50:59.409 think what I mean is like we as human beings 00:50:59.409 --> 00:51:04.590 need containers to express anger and rage. We 00:51:04.590 --> 00:51:06.750 need healthy containers through which to express 00:51:06.750 --> 00:51:09.510 anger and rage. And I don't believe in the suppression 00:51:09.510 --> 00:51:14.130 or repression of rage or anger or any of the 00:51:14.130 --> 00:51:17.809 bass notes, right? And hear bass as music, not 00:51:17.809 --> 00:51:23.389 as impure, right? We don't have in our society 00:51:23.389 --> 00:51:26.900 the containers to properly channel. And those 00:51:26.900 --> 00:51:30.400 emotions must be given their due. And so there's 00:51:30.400 --> 00:51:33.780 a way in which one can hear the second principle 00:51:33.780 --> 00:51:36.119 and be like, oh, I have to never get mad at someone 00:51:36.119 --> 00:51:38.920 or never lash out at someone or never express 00:51:38.920 --> 00:51:45.039 myself in a really angry way. And that's not 00:51:45.039 --> 00:51:48.940 what I want people to take from the second principle. 00:51:49.460 --> 00:51:53.210 Got it. Yeah. Let me know what you think about 00:51:53.210 --> 00:51:55.750 this. I mean, before we hit record, we were talking 00:51:55.750 --> 00:52:00.230 about St. Francis of Assisi's journey during 00:52:00.230 --> 00:52:03.630 the Fifth Crusade where he got on this journey, 00:52:03.750 --> 00:52:06.829 as I mentioned, to convert the sultan, you know, 00:52:06.869 --> 00:52:10.210 thinking that he was going to come back as this, 00:52:10.210 --> 00:52:14.190 like, great hero because he was going to convert 00:52:14.190 --> 00:52:19.289 all these Muslims to Christianity under the sultan's 00:52:19.289 --> 00:52:23.619 guidance. What he actually finds out is that 00:52:23.619 --> 00:52:27.619 in not treating the sultan like a political abstraction, 00:52:27.940 --> 00:52:29.880 which one could argue that's what he was doing 00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:33.280 by placing this label on him, is someone who 00:52:33.280 --> 00:52:36.519 needed to be converted. Because I have all the 00:52:36.519 --> 00:52:39.260 answers, right? So I need to help this person 00:52:39.260 --> 00:52:42.519 find the truth. What he actually finds is by 00:52:42.519 --> 00:52:44.719 not treating the sultan like a political abstraction. 00:52:45.739 --> 00:52:48.800 And treating him as a human being with a heart 00:52:48.800 --> 00:52:51.679 and a soul and a mind and a beautiful religion 00:52:51.679 --> 00:52:55.320 and philosophy that could help Francis in his 00:52:55.320 --> 00:53:01.019 life. Now there's room for dialogue. Now there's 00:53:01.019 --> 00:53:05.599 room for this, what is believed, maybe it's lore, 00:53:05.840 --> 00:53:09.440 but it's believed that they spent several days 00:53:09.440 --> 00:53:13.940 together. And they probably debated. they probably 00:53:13.940 --> 00:53:20.000 quote -unquote criticized. However, because they're 00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:23.119 seeing each other as human beings and not political 00:53:23.119 --> 00:53:26.679 abstractions, now they can enter into this dance 00:53:26.679 --> 00:53:29.539 with dialogue, and that's when it becomes fun 00:53:29.539 --> 00:53:32.420 because you're seeing the person as they are, 00:53:32.579 --> 00:53:36.599 and they're seeing you as you are. So you know 00:53:36.599 --> 00:53:40.000 that in the comforts of that relationship, the 00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:43.039 dialogue – the relationship can hold the dialogue. 00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:47.519 Yes. Even if it gets tense at times. That's right. 00:53:47.519 --> 00:53:50.039 Even if there are these really heavy bass notes 00:53:50.039 --> 00:53:53.920 at times. You're safe in the relationship. So 00:53:53.920 --> 00:53:59.639 am I on track there? Maybe dialogue is what that 00:53:59.639 --> 00:54:01.900 second principle is pointing us toward in some 00:54:01.900 --> 00:54:07.730 way. Yes, and I – Dialogue, dialogos, right? 00:54:07.789 --> 00:54:12.349 It's a very deep Greek idea. It's actually related 00:54:12.349 --> 00:54:17.590 to the text. I forgot what chapter in the New 00:54:17.590 --> 00:54:20.829 Testament where Jesus says, wherever two or three 00:54:20.829 --> 00:54:23.230 are gathered in my name, there will I abide in 00:54:23.230 --> 00:54:26.889 the midst. I think in the original Greek, something 00:54:26.889 --> 00:54:30.670 to do with logos is happening there. And there's 00:54:30.670 --> 00:54:33.389 a great. cognitive scientist named john verveke 00:54:33.389 --> 00:54:35.969 who talks a lot about this in his in his um videos 00:54:35.969 --> 00:54:38.570 and such and like the art of dialogos and what 00:54:38.570 --> 00:54:42.809 dialogos is uh it's like to be in relationship 00:54:42.809 --> 00:54:45.030 with someone such that you recognize their constantly 00:54:45.030 --> 00:54:48.869 unfolding nature and you can hear i can hear 00:54:48.869 --> 00:54:52.210 in that there i will abide in the in the midst 00:54:52.210 --> 00:54:55.070 of that right like there's something absolutely 00:54:55.070 --> 00:55:01.099 gorgeous about that that we in modernity You 00:55:01.099 --> 00:55:06.420 know, very rarely get access to. But yeah, so 00:55:06.420 --> 00:55:08.059 I think you're I think you're right about that. 00:55:08.199 --> 00:55:11.800 Yeah. And and what's crazy is that you need you 00:55:11.800 --> 00:55:16.260 need each other for the logos. Right. Yes. You 00:55:16.260 --> 00:55:17.619 know, it's like, yes, you can't do it alone. 00:55:17.820 --> 00:55:21.360 You can't you can't do it solitarily. Yeah, exactly. 00:55:21.519 --> 00:55:25.380 So, you know, Francis and the Sultan, you know, 00:55:25.380 --> 00:55:28.940 or you could use any example like. You're in 00:55:28.940 --> 00:55:32.440 the you're going somewhere together deeper into 00:55:32.440 --> 00:55:37.000 the divine nature of reality. And that's going 00:55:37.000 --> 00:55:41.659 to be crazy. You know, like maybe maybe maybe 00:55:41.659 --> 00:55:45.340 you're even yelling each other at times and it 00:55:45.340 --> 00:55:48.900 gets really tense. However, as long as you stay 00:55:48.900 --> 00:55:52.860 in that place of we are human beings in our relationship 00:55:52.860 --> 00:55:56.469 can handle. the up and down of this dialogue 00:55:56.469 --> 00:55:59.909 and the chaos of this dialogue, we're exploring 00:55:59.909 --> 00:56:03.349 the divine together. There's something really 00:56:03.349 --> 00:56:05.750 insightful that you just said that, that struck 00:56:05.750 --> 00:56:07.869 me just now. It's like, I have to trust. And 00:56:07.869 --> 00:56:10.349 I have this challenge where I will feel very 00:56:10.349 --> 00:56:12.190 passionate about something in conversation with 00:56:12.190 --> 00:56:14.230 someone. And I will want to like yell or be animated. 00:56:14.289 --> 00:56:16.809 And I won't let myself do it because I don't 00:56:16.809 --> 00:56:19.610 want to, whatever. I pathologize that a little 00:56:19.610 --> 00:56:21.369 bit, but there's something, there's an invitation 00:56:21.369 --> 00:56:24.619 here for me to trust the relationship. Even with 00:56:24.619 --> 00:56:29.460 strangers, which is an edge for me, to trust 00:56:29.460 --> 00:56:31.500 that the relationship can hold that tension. 00:56:32.880 --> 00:56:36.880 Yeah, yeah. I do want to be respectful of your 00:56:36.880 --> 00:56:39.000 time, Chloe. So let's get to the third principle 00:56:39.000 --> 00:56:43.239 real quick. And the third one is root everything 00:56:43.239 --> 00:56:48.079 you do in love and compassion. What's the connection 00:56:48.079 --> 00:56:51.019 here between the second? And the third, what's 00:56:51.019 --> 00:56:53.920 the kind of movement here as we move into the 00:56:53.920 --> 00:56:57.739 third principle of theory of enchantment? Let 00:56:57.739 --> 00:57:01.000 me ask you a question. I heard that Francis of 00:57:01.000 --> 00:57:06.619 Assisi, he would walk on his hands. Is that true? 00:57:07.820 --> 00:57:13.179 Francis of Assisi? Yeah. Oh, I mean, I have not 00:57:13.179 --> 00:57:18.130 heard that. Was he famous for that? I actually 00:57:18.130 --> 00:57:20.030 heard it through the Mumford & Sons song that 00:57:20.030 --> 00:57:22.769 I mentioned before we recorded it. There's a, 00:57:22.949 --> 00:57:24.550 this is relevant to your question, I promise. 00:57:25.329 --> 00:57:33.429 There's a, there's a, there's a line in, I forgot 00:57:33.429 --> 00:57:34.769 the name of the song, but there's a line in one 00:57:34.769 --> 00:57:37.250 of Mumford & Sons' song from the album Si No 00:57:37.250 --> 00:57:40.650 More where they say, so come out of your cave 00:57:40.650 --> 00:57:45.070 walking on your hands and see the world. hanging 00:57:45.070 --> 00:57:49.630 upside down and apparently allegedly that is 00:57:49.630 --> 00:57:53.090 a reference to francis of assisi fact check me 00:57:53.090 --> 00:57:57.349 on that people um and i bring that up yeah go 00:57:57.349 --> 00:58:01.090 ahead yeah go ahead no no you go well i was just 00:58:01.090 --> 00:58:05.909 gonna add very quickly that whether that's uh 00:58:05.909 --> 00:58:10.510 literally true or not the the metaphor is apt 00:58:10.940 --> 00:58:13.360 um and of course okay no if it was literally 00:58:13.360 --> 00:58:15.679 true or not because he lived in the middle ages 00:58:15.679 --> 00:58:18.480 there's no way there's no way to know yeah but 00:58:18.480 --> 00:58:22.199 francis i mean lore goes that he would like preach 00:58:22.199 --> 00:58:25.119 to worms you know and like the birds would gather 00:58:25.119 --> 00:58:28.199 around him and listen to him and like he yeah 00:58:28.199 --> 00:58:31.719 he was like snow white in the forest yeah exactly 00:58:31.719 --> 00:58:35.800 exactly just like vibing yeah yes but in a very 00:58:35.800 --> 00:58:38.320 real sense and i think this is the important 00:58:38.320 --> 00:58:43.510 part is that at this time where church was generally 00:58:43.510 --> 00:58:45.869 the only place where people thought that they 00:58:45.869 --> 00:58:49.989 could experience the divine, Francis was experiencing 00:58:49.989 --> 00:58:54.510 the divine in creation itself. Wasn't turning 00:58:54.510 --> 00:58:56.190 his back on the church. You know what I mean? 00:58:56.210 --> 00:59:00.429 He remained a Catholic. However, he, in a very 00:59:00.429 --> 00:59:03.170 real way, he was walking on his hands because 00:59:03.170 --> 00:59:07.659 he wanted. every single aspect of himself to 00:59:07.659 --> 00:59:10.420 be entrenched in creation because that's where 00:59:10.420 --> 00:59:13.420 the divine was so i mean like they're sorry go 00:59:13.420 --> 00:59:15.760 ahead with the third principle but i know it's 00:59:15.760 --> 00:59:21.000 a really beautiful visual yeah so i bring that 00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:24.440 up because i play capoeira and capoeira is this 00:59:24.440 --> 00:59:28.920 afro -brazilian martial art created by slaves 00:59:28.920 --> 00:59:31.599 who were taken by the portuguese brought to brazil 00:59:31.599 --> 00:59:37.730 as a as a dance It masqueraded as a dance, but 00:59:37.730 --> 00:59:40.510 it was actually a kind of resistance against 00:59:40.510 --> 00:59:43.130 slave owners in Brazil. And it's this really 00:59:43.130 --> 00:59:48.909 beautiful martial arts form of movement and dance, 00:59:48.909 --> 00:59:53.949 but also fighting. You don't actually do capoeira. 00:59:54.010 --> 00:59:56.550 You don't fight capoeira. You play capoeira, 00:59:56.650 --> 01:00:00.530 which I love the beautiful linguistics of that. 01:00:00.769 --> 01:00:03.909 But in capoeira, you walk on your hands a lot. 01:00:04.859 --> 01:00:07.940 You do these headstands and these handstands 01:00:07.940 --> 01:00:11.320 and these kicks and you walk on your hands. And 01:00:11.320 --> 01:00:16.900 there's this circular nature in Capoeira, which 01:00:16.900 --> 01:00:20.960 I sense when I hear that Francis of Assisi. I 01:00:20.960 --> 01:00:22.980 sense that in him when I hear this about him. 01:00:23.019 --> 01:00:24.420 And I sense this in him when I hear about his 01:00:24.420 --> 01:00:27.139 relationship with the sultan. And when we talk 01:00:27.139 --> 01:00:30.760 about dialogos, right, there's this encircling 01:00:30.760 --> 01:00:34.199 nature, not linear. which is very different, 01:00:34.280 --> 01:00:42.980 but encircling, enfolding nature that I experience 01:00:42.980 --> 01:00:47.719 as the nature of love. And so the third principle 01:00:47.719 --> 01:00:49.920 is root everything you do in love and compassion. 01:00:52.239 --> 01:00:54.619 I sometimes say that that is the culmination 01:00:54.619 --> 01:00:57.860 of the first two principles, and it is. It totally 01:00:57.860 --> 01:01:03.179 is. And I feel an invitation to talk about the 01:01:03.179 --> 01:01:09.960 circular dance -like enfolding nature of reality 01:01:09.960 --> 01:01:13.179 itself, which is what I'm getting at when I speak 01:01:13.179 --> 01:01:16.500 of love. And it's also the nature of agape, right? 01:01:16.599 --> 01:01:19.559 And Dr. King said agape or unconditional love, 01:01:19.719 --> 01:01:26.320 Christian concept, right? And I love, just as 01:01:26.320 --> 01:01:28.380 a side note, I experience Christianity as this 01:01:28.380 --> 01:01:31.940 really beautiful, although fraught, beautiful 01:01:32.599 --> 01:01:38.719 marriage or or uh what is it dare i say tryst 01:01:38.719 --> 01:01:43.099 between greek greek thought and judaism like 01:01:43.099 --> 01:01:46.039 that is how i experience christianity um that 01:01:46.039 --> 01:01:48.800 has been taken by the roman catholic church and 01:01:48.800 --> 01:01:52.980 universalized but anyway um with agape agape 01:01:52.980 --> 01:02:01.800 love is i love you like my love informs you by 01:02:01.800 --> 01:02:04.800 loving you you become a full person gape love 01:02:04.800 --> 01:02:07.179 is also like the type of love that a parent has 01:02:07.179 --> 01:02:10.679 for a child right by loving you you actually 01:02:10.679 --> 01:02:15.340 grow up right by loving you you become raised 01:02:15.340 --> 01:02:19.179 right listen to the vegetative nature of that 01:02:19.179 --> 01:02:23.159 language right even husbandry is like a agricultural 01:02:23.159 --> 01:02:26.239 term right and there's like this there's this 01:02:26.239 --> 01:02:32.820 enfolding nature of love in which one cannot 01:02:32.820 --> 01:02:36.480 help but lose themselves meaning you cannot you 01:02:36.480 --> 01:02:40.519 cannot help but be changed through the through 01:02:40.519 --> 01:02:42.860 this type of love that I am describing right 01:02:42.860 --> 01:02:45.280 this type of love which we've been describing 01:02:45.280 --> 01:02:47.219 throughout all talking about all of the principles 01:02:47.219 --> 01:02:51.960 you are forever changed by it you are not in 01:02:51.960 --> 01:02:55.599 control of it it is in some way outside of you 01:02:55.599 --> 01:03:00.400 so root everything you do in love and compassion 01:03:00.400 --> 01:03:05.460 is to say enter into this devotional practice 01:03:05.460 --> 01:03:09.639 with self and other with the other that is yourself 01:03:09.639 --> 01:03:13.699 and you will you will become you will notice 01:03:13.699 --> 01:03:17.559 the unfolding will will create in you this capacity 01:03:17.559 --> 01:03:20.940 for grace will make you larger than life not 01:03:20.940 --> 01:03:25.800 in a you know arrogant sense but in a it will 01:03:25.800 --> 01:03:27.340 make you larger than life and it will humble 01:03:27.340 --> 01:03:29.300 you at the same time, right? Because it will 01:03:29.300 --> 01:03:31.079 put you in touch with the earth, which is what 01:03:31.079 --> 01:03:33.679 the word humble means, right? It comes from the 01:03:33.679 --> 01:03:39.619 word hummus of the earth, of the land. And there's, 01:03:39.619 --> 01:03:42.539 I want to stress that this is not something, 01:03:42.659 --> 01:03:45.000 at least, at least that I found, this is not 01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:47.519 something that can be like ascertained or approximated 01:03:47.519 --> 01:03:50.139 simply through talking, but you have to dance 01:03:50.139 --> 01:03:53.340 in order to experience this, you know, you have 01:03:53.340 --> 01:03:57.179 to, and Dialogo sort of, you know, Hints at that. 01:03:57.340 --> 01:04:00.280 But you have to dance. You have to chant. When 01:04:00.280 --> 01:04:02.860 you're chanting, you and the song are becoming 01:04:02.860 --> 01:04:06.360 one. It's a trance that's happening. And that 01:04:06.360 --> 01:04:08.579 is the nature of the love that I am describing. 01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:12.519 Yeah, well, it's a really beautiful thing, Chloe. 01:04:12.719 --> 01:04:16.900 These principles and this organization that formed 01:04:16.900 --> 01:04:21.039 within you years ago. there's still, you're still 01:04:21.039 --> 01:04:23.840 on that spiral going deeper and deeper into these 01:04:23.840 --> 01:04:27.380 principles yourself. Because of that, it seems 01:04:27.380 --> 01:04:29.539 like your organization and all the healing work 01:04:29.539 --> 01:04:31.980 that you do as a peacemaker, just like Francis 01:04:31.980 --> 01:04:35.559 of Assisi, you find yourself in these very unique 01:04:35.559 --> 01:04:38.780 situations, but because you're on that journey 01:04:38.780 --> 01:04:41.440 too. And I just think it's a really beautiful 01:04:41.440 --> 01:04:43.920 thing. So thank you for your time. Do you have 01:04:43.920 --> 01:04:47.119 anything else you'd like to add or any invitation 01:04:47.119 --> 01:04:51.280 to the listener or anything at all that I left 01:04:51.280 --> 01:04:54.639 out? Well, first of all, thank you, Stephen, 01:04:54.760 --> 01:04:57.539 for inviting me. I've loved this conversation. 01:04:57.739 --> 01:05:00.949 It's been really beautiful. For people who want 01:05:00.949 --> 01:05:02.730 to know more about Theory of Enchantment, they 01:05:02.730 --> 01:05:04.969 can check out theoryofenchantment .com. They 01:05:04.969 --> 01:05:07.210 can also follow me on Substack. Just look up 01:05:07.210 --> 01:05:10.210 my name, Chloe Valdry. I've been doing a lot 01:05:10.210 --> 01:05:13.050 more writing lately. I would also love to know 01:05:13.050 --> 01:05:16.690 from you, Stephen, if there's a book about Francis 01:05:16.690 --> 01:05:19.210 of Assisi you think I should read, because I'm 01:05:19.210 --> 01:05:23.079 very curious to learn more. Absolutely. No, I'll 01:05:23.079 --> 01:05:29.440 I'll send you several. OK, sounds good. And I'm 01:05:29.440 --> 01:05:31.719 definitely going to look up the walking on his 01:05:31.719 --> 01:05:35.099 hands thing because. Yeah, Mumford and Sons deep 01:05:35.099 --> 01:05:38.519 cut. Yeah, I'm going to go see Mumford in July 01:05:38.519 --> 01:05:41.860 and I'm fired up about it. Oh, cool. Yeah, I'll 01:05:41.860 --> 01:05:44.099 be my first time seeing Mumford. But thank you 01:05:44.099 --> 01:05:45.920 again, Chloe. Really enjoyed this conversation. 01:05:46.239 --> 01:05:53.179 My pleasure. Once again, that was Chloe Valdry, 01:05:53.360 --> 01:05:56.360 founder and creator of the Theory of Enchantment. 01:05:56.639 --> 01:05:59.820 You can follow her work on Substack at chloevaldry 01:05:59.820 --> 01:06:03.139 .substack .com or learn more about Theory of 01:06:03.139 --> 01:06:06.960 Enchantment at theoryofenchantment .com. I've 01:06:06.960 --> 01:06:08.679 linked to some of her work in the show notes 01:06:08.679 --> 01:06:11.780 of this episode, as well as to our series in 01:06:11.780 --> 01:06:13.860 St. Anthony Messenger that highlights the work 01:06:13.860 --> 01:06:16.800 of healers and peacemakers, of people like Chloe 01:06:16.800 --> 01:06:19.760 and organizations like Theory of Enchantment. 01:06:20.269 --> 01:06:22.429 Thanks for tuning in and thanks as always for 01:06:22.429 --> 01:06:26.210 your support. Might we, like Francis, leave our 01:06:26.210 --> 01:06:29.789 caves walking on our hands this week, experiencing 01:06:29.789 --> 01:06:33.050 the divine through our bodies, through the earth, 01:06:33.250 --> 01:06:36.829 through ways we may have least expected, as we 01:06:36.829 --> 01:06:40.769 learn to depend entirely on our maker. Maybe 01:06:40.769 --> 01:06:44.170 the world's hanging upside down, but maybe that's 01:06:44.170 --> 01:06:47.489 the kind of paradigm shift Francis modeled. And 01:06:47.489 --> 01:06:49.949 maybe this is the countercultural approach that 01:06:49.949 --> 01:06:52.849 can bring healing to ourselves and to our world. 01:06:53.349 --> 01:06:57.110 As G .K. Chesterton wrote, Francis looked at 01:06:57.110 --> 01:06:59.849 the world as differently from other men, as if 01:06:59.849 --> 01:07:02.849 he had come out of that dark hole walking on 01:07:02.849 --> 01:07:09.659 his hands. Peace and all good, my friends. the 01:07:09.659 --> 01:07:13.900 desert with me and tenderly speak to your heart.