WEBVTT

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Welcome to Off the Page, it's great to be with

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you. This episode features the poet and Fordham

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University professor, Dr. Angela Alimo O'Donnell.

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This conversation was such a joy and covers so

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much ground from the episode's focus, which is

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the Catholic imagination, to mortality and the

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afterlife, to Bruce Springsteen and Flannery

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O 'Connor, to creativity and the imagination's

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role on our spiritual journeys, as well as her

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new poetry book, Dear Dante with Paraclete Press.

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It is a book that is an imagined conversation

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with the great Catholic poet, and as she says,

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the embodiment of the Catholic imagination. Dante,

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written in response to the 700th anniversary

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of Dante's death. Angela and I talked for almost

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two hours, so I have edited this down, but I

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wanted to include as much as possible from our

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conversation. So much of what she said is ridiculously

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profound, so there are no reflection segments

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in this episode. But I do invite you to pause

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throughout the episode whenever you hear something

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that stirs your heart or invites you inward into

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contemplation. conversation focuses on the Catholic

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imagination. Angela also has a really great story

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about an experience that she had with Pope Francis.

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She wrote about it in America Magazine shortly

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after Pope Francis's death, and you can hear

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her tell that story in episode 15 of Off the

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Page, so I encourage you to check that out. A

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few brief words about Angela. Dr. Angela Lima

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O'Donnell teaches English, creative writing,

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and courses in American Catholic Studies at Fordham

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University in New York City. She also serves

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as Associate Director of Fordham's Curran Center

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for American Catholic Studies. She's been nominated

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for or received numerous prizes in poetry, and

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she also writes essays and reviews of contemporary

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poetry and literature, which have appeared in

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publications. like Commonweal, Christianity and

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Literature, as well as America. You're in for

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a treat with this episode, so let's dive into

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the conversation. Enjoy. Dr. Angela Elima O'Donnell,

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welcome to the Off the Page podcast. Thanks for

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joining us. Thank you so much for having me,

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Stephen. I'm delighted to be here. So I'm really

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looking forward to this conversation, which I'm

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guessing one of the big themes is going to be

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the Catholic imagination. But to begin, can you

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tell listeners a little bit about your background

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and your own passions as an educator and an artist

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as well? Absolutely. I'm a professor at Fordham

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University in New York City. I've been at Fordham

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for 20 years. I just celebrated my 20th anniversary.

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And I teach courses in American Catholic studies,

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and my field is literature. So we look at literature

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through the lens of Catholicism and Catholic

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tradition. And I particularly like to teach courses

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in the Catholic imagination. I also am the associate

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director of our Kern Center for American Catholic

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Studies, which is a center that sponsors a lot

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of events and writers. and scholars and artists

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who come to perform and read and speak to our

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students. And in addition to that, I have my

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scholarly life. I write about a lot of American

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Catholic writers, but my favorite writer of recent

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years, I've written a number of books on Flannery

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O 'Connor. So she's kind of been my focus, my

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scholarly focus. And in addition, I'm a poet.

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I just published my 11th book of poems last spring

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called Dear Dante, which is a conversation with

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the great Catholic poet Dante. So I, you know,

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all of these kinds of interests mesh in various

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ways. And yeah, and I'm delighted to be able

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to talk about them today. Wonderful. Well, congratulations

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on your 20 years at Fordham and then on your

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11th book of poetry as well, Dear Dante. I've

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been diving into it. It's a really wonderful

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book, and I'm sure we'll get into that as well.

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Can you describe the Catholic imagination to

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someone perhaps unfamiliar with the term, and

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then what makes it distinct from other spiritual

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or creative worldviews? Yeah, that's a great

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question. As Catholics, Sometimes, since we can't

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get outside of ourselves and we can't get outside

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of our own tradition, we don't realize the degree

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to which we are imprinted by a Catholic formation.

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But when you do kind of take a step outside and

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think about what we have in common as a result

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of a Catholic formation, and some of this is

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generational. I have three sons. Their formation

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was different than mine was years ago, but nonetheless,

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there are certain things that still hold true.

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a common language. We're seven years old when

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we learn words like transubstantiation and concepts

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like transubstantiation. We learn about mortal

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and venial sin. We learn about, well, another

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aspect of the Catholic formation is children

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exposed to the reality of death very early. We

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go to church and there's a cross and there's

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a body on the cross. And it's not something to

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shy away from. It's a reality of life. that young

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children are not protected from in the way that

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many American children are. There's a sense of

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mortality that we get from a very early age and

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trying to see your life, not just what's going

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to happen here, but what happens beyond because

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this is not all there is. So Catholics have this

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long view of, you know, how do we fit into the

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universe and into eternity rather than thinking,

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as a lot of secular Americans do, well, this

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is it and there's nothing after this. Then we

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also have this amazing repository of stories

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that we grow up listening to. week after week

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or if you go to daily mass day after day you

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hear these bible stories that are just we're

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imprinted with, and they're so deep within us,

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and they're such goads to the imagination. Jesus'

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parables are just so rich and full of possibility,

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and we've heard hundreds and thousands of homilies

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over our lifetime as to how do we read these

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passages. And then, of course, as a little kid,

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I remember sitting in church and not having a

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clue as to what they were talking about, and

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you're looking around and like, oh, there are

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these beautiful stained glass windows in which...

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Bible stories are being acted out. And then there

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are statues of the saints up there that you learn

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about and you have affection for. I come from

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an Italian -American family and we're all about

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St. Anthony. Like St. Anthony was the go -to

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saint and Mary, you know. So, you know, our formation

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is very much based around this imagery, these

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stories, this language. The music, of course,

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that we grew up with also was very important.

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I still remember those songs. Nobody sings them

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anymore, but I still remember those songs that

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I sang standing next to my mom when I was a little

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girl that informed my own sense of, you know,

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of, you know, come Holy Ghost, creator blessed.

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Like, of course, we always sang that on Pentecost.

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And I still think of that song on Pentecost,

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even though no one sings it anymore. or very

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few people do anyway. So it gives us this gift

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of music as well. All of this, by the way, is

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art, interestingly. That is, you know, goading

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the imagination, provoking us into imagining

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God, because let's face it, we can't see God.

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We can't taste, touch, feel God. The closest

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we can come is these artistic representations,

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these stories, this language that has been given

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to us. So when a Catholic, I mean, I think as

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Catholics, Like, we just have this incredibly

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rich inheritance. And so as a Catholic artist,

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then, you have that to draw on. And you may not

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even realize that you're drawing on it, you know,

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when you're writing poetry or when you're storytelling

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because it's just so much a part of your vocabulary

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and so much a part of your history. And so the

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Catholic imagination emerges in writers and in

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artists without them trying. As Flannery O 'Connor

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says, we bring our whole self, our whole person.

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into play when we create something. And good

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luck trying to screen that out. It's just so

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deeply embedded in us that we really can't. So

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the Catholic imagination then manifests itself.

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I'm really interested to see the ways in which

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it manifests itself in people who are conscious

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of it. You know, there are plenty of writers.

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We were just talking about the great Murray Bodo.

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Obviously, he's very conscious of his Catholic

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imagination. But then there are writers who may

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not be. But it's still very much a part of who

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they are. So I'll use a very popular example

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that I like to use with my students as Bruce

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Springsteen. Grew up in Freehold, New Jersey.

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He went to Catholic school. St. Rose of Lima

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Church was his church. They called it Lima. He

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was an altar boy. He went to Catholic school.

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He was not a good kid. misbehaved very badly

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got thrown off the altar boys um nonetheless

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he was imprinted by this experience of growing

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up in the catholic church of being at all the

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weddings and all the funerals and um understanding

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this kind of liturgical life that his whole family

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and his whole town really was invested in uh

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and for a long time he didn't acknowledge that

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but in recent years he wrote a memoir a few years

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ago called born to run in which he talks about

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like the first it was really my first experience

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of beauty. It was a dark beauty. This was pre

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-Vatican II Catholicism, right? It was a dark

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beauty. It was a mystery I didn't understand.

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And that's something at the core of me as an

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artist. And then when you take a look at Springsteen's

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lyrics, I mean, his favorite word, I think, is

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redemption. not one song that he does that he

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writes that is not in some way about redemption.

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He writes about sin. He writes about loss. He

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writes about this search, this search for something

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beyond himself that sometimes can't get named.

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His songs are songs, often anthems of social

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justice, which are very much in keeping, especially

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with my younger students. That's their passion.

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And, you know, it's again, it's he's not conscious

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of it, but that's part of who he is because of

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that Catholic formation that he had. So I think.

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once we start looking in our culture we see that

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there's a lot of of the catholic imagination

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there we just may not you know may not recognize

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it until we are know what to look for yeah yeah

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i'm a big springsteen fan um i've especially

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last year i just had um Born to Run and Born

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in the USA, those two albums just on constantly

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in our household. And do you have a favorite

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song or a song that lyrically of his to you that

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really kind of captures the Catholic imagination,

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the paradox, the, you mentioned the darkness,

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the beauty, the mystery. Does anything come to

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mind for you? Yeah, there are actually a number

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of them. And now, of course, now that you're

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asking me, they're like all fleeing out of my

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head. It always happens. I'm thinking of the

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song, though, in which it's a mantra, really,

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in the song, where the... The chorus is, this

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train has saints and sinners. This train has

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bulls and gamblers. This train has lost souls.

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This train. It's the idea of, it's the glory

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train. It's the train to heaven. And it's very

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Catholic. Here comes everybody, you know. We're

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all saints and sinners. This is a train that

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does not exclude people. Quite the contrary.

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It includes people. And I can't remember the

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name of that, but it will come to me. The other

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one that I always think of. of his most poignant

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songs. It's a poem in many ways. Springsteen

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is another thing. He's a great lyricist. He's

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one of the great lyricists. And Bob Dylan won

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a Nobel Prize, but I think Bruce could also win

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one if they wanted to give it to another lyricist.

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But he has a song that he wrote. It's called

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American Skin, and it is about a young man who

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was killed by the police in the late 1990s. Might

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have been 1998, 1999. He was an immigrant named

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Amadou Diallo. And this happened right here in

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the Bronx. He went to reach for his wallet and

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the police thought he was trying to go for a

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gun and he was killed. He was shot 31 times.

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And it was one of the first instances, it wasn't

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a first, but it was one of the first instances

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that the news paid attention to of this sort

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of... overkill you know on the part of the police

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towards this young african -american man um and

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he wrote this beautiful anthem called american

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skin and the and the uh subtitle is 41 shots

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and it's just this um it is this melodic almost

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lullaby uh telling the story of this young man

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uh and it keeps on repeating 41 shots 41 shots

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just just to remind us so we don't forget you

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know that crucifixion, basically. It's a crucifixion

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of an innocent. And it's just so touching and

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so moving. And again, all of the lyrics, they're

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about, you know, we're baptized in this water,

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these waters, and we're baptized in each other's

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blood. The sense of our own complicity in these

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kinds of injustices when they happen. And, you

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know, Springsteen was doing this in the late

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1990s. This is before the Black Lives Matter

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movement. He was using his art to be prophetic,

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basically, to look and see what is happening

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in our culture, what is happening in our society

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that needs to be paid attention to. So it's kind

00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:58.019
of like an open wound. Interestingly, the New

00:13:58.019 --> 00:14:00.460
York Police Department... did not like this,

00:14:00.580 --> 00:14:04.019
as you might imagine. When he did a concert a

00:14:04.019 --> 00:14:06.700
couple of years later at Madison Square Garden,

00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:09.080
they did not want to provide security for him

00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:12.000
if he sang the song. And he sang the song anyway,

00:14:12.100 --> 00:14:15.080
because it's something that needed to be heard.

00:14:15.799 --> 00:14:20.879
He's the boss. He has to. So I think that, I

00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:24.029
mean, one of my... categories that we use when

00:14:24.029 --> 00:14:25.649
I talk about the Catholic imagination with my

00:14:25.649 --> 00:14:28.009
students is like almost all of these people have

00:14:28.009 --> 00:14:31.250
this prophetic quality to them you know this

00:14:31.250 --> 00:14:34.370
this need to speak out and when they see injustice

00:14:34.370 --> 00:14:38.490
uh they they have to I mean they they can't not

00:14:38.490 --> 00:14:42.330
use their art for that um and so you know so

00:14:42.330 --> 00:14:44.490
Springsteen is up there with Dorothy Day and

00:14:44.490 --> 00:14:47.049
Thomas Merton and Chesla Milos and a number of

00:14:47.049 --> 00:14:49.669
the other writers that we're reading who uh who

00:14:49.669 --> 00:14:54.509
do that and um Yeah, so he's one of lots of examples

00:14:54.509 --> 00:14:59.509
that we can point to. Yeah, and I'm out of my

00:14:59.509 --> 00:15:02.149
depth here, but I thought I read somewhere that

00:15:02.149 --> 00:15:06.610
isn't born in the USA, isn't that actually anti

00:15:06.610 --> 00:15:10.470
-war? anthem. I mean, we always play that on

00:15:10.470 --> 00:15:12.750
the 4th of July and, you know, you crack open

00:15:12.750 --> 00:15:15.009
your beer and you celebrate America. But it's

00:15:15.009 --> 00:15:18.330
a critique of America's involvement in Vietnam,

00:15:18.490 --> 00:15:20.909
isn't it? Am I on track there? Yeah, absolutely.

00:15:21.509 --> 00:15:24.750
Bruce had run across the book that was written

00:15:24.750 --> 00:15:27.470
by Ron Kovic, who was a Vietnam vet who came

00:15:27.470 --> 00:15:30.350
back. And then he happened to meet Kovic and

00:15:30.350 --> 00:15:32.110
he said, you know, I need to write about this.

00:15:32.210 --> 00:15:34.230
This is, again, the prophetic. This is so...

00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:37.820
Springsteen also was of age, he was actually

00:15:37.820 --> 00:15:41.279
drafted. And he was terrified, along with all

00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:43.820
the other kids his age, you know, in his town.

00:15:43.940 --> 00:15:45.940
And I can't remember, there was some sort of

00:15:45.940 --> 00:15:48.100
technicality that he did not actually have to

00:15:48.100 --> 00:15:51.059
go. And he talks about this in his Broadway show

00:15:51.059 --> 00:15:53.899
on Netflix, which is really worth watching. It's

00:15:53.899 --> 00:15:56.019
a beautiful, beautiful tribute to the Catholic

00:15:56.019 --> 00:15:58.960
imagination. But he talks about the guilt that

00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:01.659
he has had all of his life because somebody else

00:16:01.659 --> 00:16:04.899
went in his place. And he's, of course, happy

00:16:04.899 --> 00:16:07.039
to be alive and happy to be here and happy to

00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:10.259
have children and um have a productive life but

00:16:10.259 --> 00:16:13.279
he knows people that died um and so the book

00:16:13.279 --> 00:16:16.019
really struck him personally you know because

00:16:16.019 --> 00:16:18.919
it tells the story of somebody who you know went

00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:22.360
off and just disappeared you know and never came

00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:25.440
back and um and his brother you know trying to

00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:27.539
deal with it and but but the interesting thing

00:16:27.539 --> 00:16:29.559
about this song is when we hear it is that it's

00:16:29.559 --> 00:16:33.440
that hard driving like uh bruce anthem you know

00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:37.009
uh over the top and if you don't listen to the

00:16:37.009 --> 00:16:39.350
words you don't realize the story that's being

00:16:39.350 --> 00:16:42.129
told so my favorite performance of that you can

00:16:42.129 --> 00:16:43.909
find it on youtube is the one that he did at

00:16:43.909 --> 00:16:47.090
the madison squared garden concert in 2001 he

00:16:47.090 --> 00:16:50.730
slows it way down he plays it alone with his

00:16:50.730 --> 00:16:54.029
12 -string guitar and it is this haunting haunting

00:16:54.029 --> 00:16:59.649
song and then hear you hear the story so um so

00:16:59.649 --> 00:17:03.570
yeah he's um that's so interesting to me the

00:17:03.570 --> 00:17:06.730
way that he sort of uses the music to mask what

00:17:06.730 --> 00:17:11.190
it is that's being said yes in that i mean would

00:17:11.190 --> 00:17:15.099
you say that that's um not not to oversimplify

00:17:15.099 --> 00:17:17.900
it, but that's part of the paradox of the Catholic

00:17:17.900 --> 00:17:21.759
imagination, right? I mean, a song like that,

00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:24.059
I mean, it gets you going. Like, it gets you

00:17:24.059 --> 00:17:26.319
really excited. Like you said, it feels like

00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:29.940
a classic Springsteen anthem. However, there's

00:17:29.940 --> 00:17:32.339
these darker undertones that really invite you

00:17:32.339 --> 00:17:36.019
into contemplation and action and considering

00:17:36.019 --> 00:17:41.160
the real pain that people at that time were going

00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:43.660
through. Yeah, do you have any thoughts there?

00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:46.119
Yeah, I mean, one of the things, the other things

00:17:46.119 --> 00:17:49.779
that I think makes a Catholic person with a Catholic

00:17:49.779 --> 00:17:52.299
imagination is there really is this need to look

00:17:52.299 --> 00:17:55.380
into the darkness. I mentioned earlier this early

00:17:55.380 --> 00:17:59.940
familiarity that we develop with death, as if

00:17:59.940 --> 00:18:05.059
we're raised Catholic. And it's something that...

00:18:05.529 --> 00:18:07.890
Again, if you're going to do what Flannery tells

00:18:07.890 --> 00:18:09.750
us we have to do and live hotly in pursuit of

00:18:09.750 --> 00:18:11.670
the real, that's hotly in pursuit of the darkness.

00:18:12.430 --> 00:18:15.829
And so a lot of Catholic writers, I keep using

00:18:15.829 --> 00:18:17.750
Flannery as an example, so I'll just mention

00:18:17.750 --> 00:18:20.630
her stories. There are some people who find her

00:18:20.630 --> 00:18:22.950
stories really, they're very, very troubling

00:18:22.950 --> 00:18:26.089
because terrible things happen in them. You know,

00:18:26.130 --> 00:18:30.089
serial killers show up. People have all sorts

00:18:30.089 --> 00:18:33.369
of painful disabilities. People get, you know,

00:18:33.390 --> 00:18:37.680
there are murders. things get stolen. I mean,

00:18:37.700 --> 00:18:41.240
they're just all of these stories about pain

00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:45.420
and suffering. And again, O 'Connor, first of

00:18:45.420 --> 00:18:46.900
all, she was writing about the world she knew.

00:18:46.980 --> 00:18:49.759
She's writing about the South, the 50s and the

00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:52.319
60s. A lot of the stories she writes, she actually

00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:55.440
would read the newspaper and find, oh, that happened.

00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:59.200
I'm going to now put this into a story. And O

00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:01.200
'Connor's way of thinking about darkness and

00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:04.430
violence was that it was... everybody's in need

00:19:04.430 --> 00:19:06.430
of grace. We're all in need of grace. We're all

00:19:06.430 --> 00:19:08.869
in need of forgiveness. But most of us are not

00:19:08.869 --> 00:19:11.309
willing to, A, recognize that it's being offered

00:19:11.309 --> 00:19:14.210
to us, and we don't think we need it because

00:19:14.210 --> 00:19:16.150
we think we're all right by ourselves, right?

00:19:17.069 --> 00:19:20.009
And so all of her characters, as she said, their

00:19:20.009 --> 00:19:22.470
heads are so hard that... It's got to be something

00:19:22.470 --> 00:19:25.069
really shocking to get through to them. So she

00:19:25.069 --> 00:19:27.849
uses violence as a means to wake her characters

00:19:27.849 --> 00:19:31.769
up to the reality of their life and their grace.

00:19:32.349 --> 00:19:35.950
But some readers really have a hard time with

00:19:35.950 --> 00:19:38.289
her because she does take you to dark places

00:19:38.289 --> 00:19:41.789
in the stories. And she also has a wicked sense

00:19:41.789 --> 00:19:45.130
of humor. So interwoven in these almost tragic,

00:19:45.289 --> 00:19:48.509
seemingly tragic stories is this like very, very

00:19:48.509 --> 00:19:53.710
wry southern humor. So, yeah, I think that there

00:19:53.710 --> 00:19:56.829
is this quality in a lot of Catholic writers,

00:19:56.970 --> 00:19:59.509
you know, of needing to look into the darkness.

00:20:00.369 --> 00:20:03.150
How do we make it bearable? How do we, you know,

00:20:03.150 --> 00:20:05.390
one way to make it bearable is to write a song

00:20:05.390 --> 00:20:08.950
with a sound that people are going to find compelling

00:20:08.950 --> 00:20:11.230
because they'll listen to the song and then,

00:20:11.269 --> 00:20:13.869
oh, oh, oh, what's going on in this song? Or

00:20:13.869 --> 00:20:16.630
they'll be... sucked into the story by the humor

00:20:16.630 --> 00:20:18.650
in the first few paragraphs and, you know, the

00:20:18.650 --> 00:20:21.210
quirkiness of these people. And then, oh my gosh,

00:20:21.309 --> 00:20:24.569
like, where is it that we've been taken to? So,

00:20:24.690 --> 00:20:26.910
and I don't think it's a sleight of hand. I think

00:20:26.910 --> 00:20:29.869
it's a sense of a worldview in which all of these

00:20:29.869 --> 00:20:33.970
things are of a piece. And you, I mean, the greatest

00:20:33.970 --> 00:20:36.309
artist is Shakespeare. Shakespeare's, you know,

00:20:36.329 --> 00:20:38.769
tragedies are full of humor and his comedies

00:20:38.769 --> 00:20:42.170
are full of tragedy because that's life. And

00:20:42.170 --> 00:20:44.849
Shakespeare, I think, also was a closet Catholic.

00:20:45.549 --> 00:20:50.829
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One of my favorite novelists

00:20:50.829 --> 00:20:55.150
is Kurt Vonnegut. And I mean, he doesn't have

00:20:55.150 --> 00:20:57.750
a Catholic background, I don't think. But he

00:20:57.750 --> 00:21:02.009
similarly, I mean, he uses the absurd and science

00:21:02.009 --> 00:21:07.339
fiction to, I mean. the humor is what carries

00:21:07.339 --> 00:21:09.740
you into this confrontation with the real, because

00:21:09.740 --> 00:21:14.119
then he gets incredibly dark. Um, and, but the,

00:21:14.140 --> 00:21:17.200
but the humor makes it bearable, uh, at least

00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:20.900
for me, uh, in a, in, you know, it's, he'll have

00:21:20.900 --> 00:21:23.599
a line that just like, Oh my goodness, that is,

00:21:23.740 --> 00:21:27.779
um, but, but I mean, he has, he had a very dark

00:21:27.779 --> 00:21:30.539
past too. I mean, he was a prisoner of war in

00:21:30.539 --> 00:21:34.140
Dresden, I think in world war two. Um, he, uh,

00:21:35.069 --> 00:21:39.029
His what was it? I think his sister passed away.

00:21:40.490 --> 00:21:43.529
And he took he took her kids in and raised them.

00:21:44.029 --> 00:21:48.700
His mom committed suicide. I mean, so. I guess

00:21:48.700 --> 00:21:50.740
I'm just piggybacking off of what you said, is

00:21:50.740 --> 00:21:55.660
that he's using art as a way to cope with his

00:21:55.660 --> 00:21:58.000
own trauma. It feels like that to me, at least.

00:21:58.180 --> 00:22:01.140
And it makes life bearable to him. And it helps

00:22:01.140 --> 00:22:03.960
make life bearable to me, too. Yeah, absolutely.

00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:07.460
And, you know, sort of a Catholic version of

00:22:07.460 --> 00:22:10.299
Vonnegut is, I think he's very much influenced

00:22:10.299 --> 00:22:14.980
by Vonnegut, is Walker Percy. Also had a kind

00:22:14.980 --> 00:22:17.720
of scientific bent the way that and also has

00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:20.680
this like he likes to write satire. So one of

00:22:20.680 --> 00:22:22.859
my favorite books by him is a very Vonnegut -esque

00:22:22.859 --> 00:22:26.259
book called Love in the Ruins. And it's a it's

00:22:26.259 --> 00:22:30.720
a sort of a science fiction imagining like what

00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:33.079
the end of the world is going to look like. And

00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:37.900
it's funny. It's crazy. It's out, you know, and

00:22:37.900 --> 00:22:41.799
it's it's witty. It's satiric. But at the end

00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:43.759
of it, I mean, and I guess. this is one of the

00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:47.240
things that distinguishes Percy from Vonnegut,

00:22:47.259 --> 00:22:50.880
is like there really is this desire for God.

00:22:51.140 --> 00:22:53.319
You know, there's this Christian vision, this

00:22:53.319 --> 00:22:56.980
Catholic vision that Percy is trying to get at

00:22:56.980 --> 00:23:00.259
the center of. No matter how broken and how flawed

00:23:00.259 --> 00:23:02.720
all of these people are, the only thing that

00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:05.380
makes sense is the Eucharist. The only thing.

00:23:05.609 --> 00:23:08.170
makes sense is God, because we are so messed

00:23:08.170 --> 00:23:12.529
up that obviously we cannot handle it. So there's

00:23:12.529 --> 00:23:17.630
this, again, this sense of redemption that comes

00:23:17.630 --> 00:23:22.069
in despite all of the madness. There's a reason

00:23:22.069 --> 00:23:26.329
for suffering. It's not just a mad, mad world.

00:23:26.450 --> 00:23:28.990
It is a mad, mad world, but there's also a kind

00:23:28.990 --> 00:23:32.990
of sanity that you can find in it. Yeah, you

00:23:32.990 --> 00:23:35.809
said something earlier that I'd never thought

00:23:35.809 --> 00:23:39.289
about before. I grew up Catholic, and I don't

00:23:39.289 --> 00:23:42.890
think I've ever really thought about how the

00:23:42.890 --> 00:23:47.210
art and the reverence of the Mass, and then,

00:23:47.269 --> 00:23:51.069
like you said, the crucifix there, front and

00:23:51.069 --> 00:23:55.269
center. I mean, I don't think I've ever thought

00:23:55.269 --> 00:23:59.230
about how this real confrontation with mortality

00:23:59.230 --> 00:24:03.019
at a young age has shaped my life as an artist.

00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:06.980
That is very interesting. I mean, I remember,

00:24:07.299 --> 00:24:13.960
I remember, I guess I was born to love theology

00:24:13.960 --> 00:24:16.180
or something because I remember in kindergarten,

00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:19.220
my parents were watching Touched by an Angel.

00:24:19.319 --> 00:24:21.920
You remember that show? Yes, I do. I do. Yeah.

00:24:22.039 --> 00:24:26.230
And I was just like, I think seeing that and

00:24:26.230 --> 00:24:30.109
then the experiences at mass and then learning

00:24:30.109 --> 00:24:32.789
at Catholic grade school, like I was just haunted

00:24:32.789 --> 00:24:38.130
by the afterlife and angels and demons and, you

00:24:38.130 --> 00:24:41.690
know, all these supernatural forces. And eventually

00:24:41.690 --> 00:24:43.650
I remember my parents just being like. I think

00:24:43.650 --> 00:24:46.170
you need to talk to your teacher about this like

00:24:46.170 --> 00:24:48.289
he's not letting this go like you need to talk

00:24:48.289 --> 00:24:50.690
to your teacher but I remember that I remember

00:24:50.690 --> 00:24:52.910
that like it was yesterday like it was a very

00:24:52.910 --> 00:24:59.319
um It feels so real and vivid to me still that

00:24:59.319 --> 00:25:03.460
already at a young age, you're confronting these

00:25:03.460 --> 00:25:05.960
really dark elements about what it means to be

00:25:05.960 --> 00:25:10.140
alive. I mean, do you think that's a good thing?

00:25:10.259 --> 00:25:13.059
Do you think that's a necessary or important

00:25:13.059 --> 00:25:17.660
thing? Or what would you say to someone who critiques

00:25:17.660 --> 00:25:21.420
that and says, I don't know if kids should be

00:25:21.420 --> 00:25:25.990
exposed to that at that age? It's a lot. And

00:25:25.990 --> 00:25:29.730
I think that there are a couple of different

00:25:29.730 --> 00:25:32.849
ways to answer that question. It is too much

00:25:32.849 --> 00:25:35.569
in many ways. I had a similar experience two

00:25:35.569 --> 00:25:37.829
years. You know, I was I think for very sensitive

00:25:37.829 --> 00:25:39.930
children and children who have a lot of imagination,

00:25:40.309 --> 00:25:43.950
it can be burden. It's like, oh, my gosh. And

00:25:43.950 --> 00:25:46.109
then on top of that, my dad died when I was only

00:25:46.109 --> 00:25:50.769
eight. And and so I was in my era like we were

00:25:50.769 --> 00:25:53.279
taught hell. I mean, hell was a real thing, you

00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:55.559
know, and not that it's not a real thing, but

00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:57.900
it's not so much taught to young children anymore

00:25:57.900 --> 00:26:01.859
as it used to be. And so I was just haunted by

00:26:01.859 --> 00:26:04.380
this idea. My dad also part of this Italian American

00:26:04.380 --> 00:26:06.380
community that we're in, like men didn't go to

00:26:06.380 --> 00:26:09.440
church. Religion was like women's work. And so

00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:11.859
I was taught in CCD classes that if you don't

00:26:11.859 --> 00:26:13.660
go to church, that's a mortal sin. And if you

00:26:13.660 --> 00:26:17.460
don't. Yeah, I remember that, too. You're done.

00:26:17.619 --> 00:26:20.559
And so I was like searching and searching for

00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:23.240
some. sort of way to get my father out of hell,

00:26:23.339 --> 00:26:26.299
but I didn't think I could. And that was my hope

00:26:26.299 --> 00:26:28.019
that he was in purgatory. So I would say all

00:26:28.019 --> 00:26:30.420
of these prayers that would try to lessen his

00:26:30.420 --> 00:26:33.700
time in purgatory. And that was a lot for an

00:26:33.700 --> 00:26:36.740
eight -year -old. And my mom was so tied up in

00:26:36.740 --> 00:26:38.740
her own grief, and I have four brothers and sisters,

00:26:38.819 --> 00:26:41.859
that I wasn't able to tell anybody about this.

00:26:41.980 --> 00:26:45.759
I really just suffered with it. So am I thinking

00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:49.059
that that's a good thing? Not necessarily, but

00:26:49.059 --> 00:26:52.160
I don't also know that it's a bad thing. Yeah.

00:26:52.819 --> 00:26:55.640
I feel as though, I mean, all of us walk our

00:26:55.640 --> 00:26:58.259
journeys. And I feel as though I was imprinted

00:26:58.259 --> 00:27:00.079
at eight years old. I feel like I grew up when

00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:01.900
I was eight. I feel like that was kind of the

00:27:01.900 --> 00:27:07.160
end of my childhood. I probably would not have

00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:09.660
become a writer. I think writing was one of the

00:27:09.660 --> 00:27:13.119
refuges that I took as a way of trying to deal

00:27:13.119 --> 00:27:17.099
with this complexity. And then, of course, as

00:27:17.099 --> 00:27:20.599
I got older, I found ways to deal with and think

00:27:20.599 --> 00:27:22.460
my way through some of these things that were

00:27:22.460 --> 00:27:28.019
hard to deal with. So, yeah, it's not an easy

00:27:28.019 --> 00:27:33.109
childhood, I would say, necessarily. Childhood,

00:27:33.109 --> 00:27:35.250
in most times and places, has never been easy.

00:27:36.069 --> 00:27:39.730
As Americans, we have this desire to protect

00:27:39.730 --> 00:27:42.369
our children and to keep them from being too

00:27:42.369 --> 00:27:45.509
bothered by anything. But I teach a lot of young

00:27:45.509 --> 00:27:49.130
people, like between the ages of 18 to 22. They're

00:27:49.130 --> 00:27:51.890
troubled. A lot of them are very troubled. And,

00:27:51.890 --> 00:27:55.309
you know, I don't know that. And again, this

00:27:55.309 --> 00:27:57.470
is across the board. This is people who have

00:27:57.470 --> 00:27:59.470
been raised with faith and those who have not.

00:28:00.289 --> 00:28:02.289
I just think it's part of the human condition

00:28:02.289 --> 00:28:05.710
that we eventually have to deal with, you know,

00:28:05.710 --> 00:28:08.710
with what it is to be a human being. And one

00:28:08.710 --> 00:28:11.910
of the things that Catholicism gives us is, first

00:28:11.910 --> 00:28:15.150
of all, hope. Like, so when your father dies,

00:28:15.309 --> 00:28:18.279
at least, you know. There's eternal life. You're

00:28:18.279 --> 00:28:20.220
going to see him again, you know, if you can

00:28:20.220 --> 00:28:22.019
find your way to thinking that he's in heaven

00:28:22.019 --> 00:28:27.059
or purgatory rather than in hell. And this is

00:28:27.059 --> 00:28:31.319
not all there is. And there's more to this world

00:28:31.319 --> 00:28:34.900
than is dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio,

00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:39.799
you know. And so that kind of humility before

00:28:39.799 --> 00:28:44.869
the largeness of the universe, I think. helps

00:28:44.869 --> 00:28:48.349
you to deal with mystery, helps you to deal with

00:28:48.349 --> 00:28:50.269
all of the mystery you're going to be encountering

00:28:50.269 --> 00:28:54.630
for the rest of your life. Yeah, so I, you know,

00:28:54.650 --> 00:28:56.809
when my own children were, you know, born, of

00:28:56.809 --> 00:28:59.390
course, baptized them, you know, they went to

00:28:59.390 --> 00:29:03.450
Catholic school. And, you know, I wanted them

00:29:03.450 --> 00:29:07.559
to have that same sense of the world meaning

00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:11.140
something that I was able to grow up with. And

00:29:11.140 --> 00:29:15.539
I believe myself, you know, and that's the best

00:29:15.539 --> 00:29:17.859
gift that you can have, do as a parent, is to

00:29:17.859 --> 00:29:20.480
pass on the faith, whatever your faith might

00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:23.880
happen to be, to your children. And of course,

00:29:23.900 --> 00:29:26.000
it's up to them to believe, to follow and not

00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:28.039
to follow. You have no control over that as a

00:29:28.039 --> 00:29:31.099
parent. But it's, you know, it's a framework.

00:29:32.259 --> 00:29:36.759
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And then like on the

00:29:36.759 --> 00:29:39.259
flip side, when I think about it, I mean, it

00:29:39.259 --> 00:29:45.740
was the art that I mentioned and the reverence,

00:29:45.740 --> 00:29:48.200
like I said, as well. And even like the visceral

00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:52.559
like smells of like the incense and then the

00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:55.779
cadence of like Holy Week and Stations of the

00:29:55.779 --> 00:29:59.519
Cross every Friday. I mean, the rhythm of that

00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:04.180
in this. in this continual confrontation with

00:30:04.180 --> 00:30:06.880
mystery like you said i mean you learn the word

00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:09.900
transubstantiation when you're like a second

00:30:09.900 --> 00:30:11.619
grader like i think i learned it when i was in

00:30:11.619 --> 00:30:15.380
second grade and that's mystery you know it made

00:30:15.380 --> 00:30:18.539
no sense to my mind then um but it's mystery

00:30:18.539 --> 00:30:23.500
like you're it's a invitation into um a magical

00:30:23.500 --> 00:30:26.980
world in a sense magic in the best term um and

00:30:28.250 --> 00:30:33.349
So I'm like the worst Catholic ever. Like a year

00:30:33.349 --> 00:30:35.970
after I was confirmed, I got baptized Protestant

00:30:35.970 --> 00:30:40.829
and kind of went the evangelical route and really

00:30:40.829 --> 00:30:44.390
had a good experience. I'm thankful for that

00:30:44.390 --> 00:30:49.170
part of my spiritual journey. But now kind of

00:30:49.170 --> 00:30:52.470
full circle, I mean, as I reflect on that, and

00:30:52.470 --> 00:30:56.589
I learned a lot about Catholicism. in my breaking

00:30:56.589 --> 00:31:00.930
down of some Protestant theology that wasn't

00:31:00.930 --> 00:31:03.609
very helpful for me. But the thing that I missed

00:31:03.609 --> 00:31:06.430
in this kind of evangelical phase of my life,

00:31:06.490 --> 00:31:10.910
one of the things I missed was the art. And the

00:31:10.910 --> 00:31:13.109
evangelicals, they do some really incredible

00:31:13.109 --> 00:31:17.450
art too, like with music and their real emotive

00:31:17.450 --> 00:31:21.109
kind of preaching. There are some positive aspects

00:31:21.109 --> 00:31:26.049
of that too, but it was so... incredibly refreshing

00:31:26.049 --> 00:31:29.509
to step into mass again and the reverence the

00:31:29.509 --> 00:31:34.369
art the um yeah you're you've got my mind spinning

00:31:34.369 --> 00:31:36.930
right now because there is so much there to experience

00:31:36.930 --> 00:31:42.289
that as a child um yeah it has to do something

00:31:42.289 --> 00:31:44.930
subconsciously to your imagination i would think

00:31:44.930 --> 00:31:48.859
yeah absolutely um there's a Speaking of the

00:31:48.859 --> 00:31:51.279
Catholic imagination and like people who theorize

00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:53.039
about it, there's a theologian whose name is

00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:55.859
David Tracy. And he talks about these kind of

00:31:55.859 --> 00:31:58.900
two poles of ways of being in the world. There's

00:31:58.900 --> 00:32:01.299
the analogical imagination and then there's the

00:32:01.299 --> 00:32:03.700
dialectical imagination. And the analogical imagination

00:32:03.700 --> 00:32:06.220
is the Catholic imagination or the sacramental

00:32:06.220 --> 00:32:08.680
imagination. And that's the imagination that

00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:11.460
sees meaning in everything, that sees God in

00:32:11.460 --> 00:32:14.519
hearing in the world, all around us, any other,

00:32:14.779 --> 00:32:17.839
the imago dei. And there's this trust. in the

00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:20.180
imagination, right? There's this trust that God

00:32:20.180 --> 00:32:23.440
is there. As the Jesuit poet Gerard Manley Hopkins

00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:28.400
writes, the world is charged with the grandeur

00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:31.500
of God. It will come out like shining from shook

00:32:31.500 --> 00:32:34.079
foil. It gathers to a greatness like the ooze

00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:37.079
of oil crushed. So there's this absolute conviction,

00:32:37.319 --> 00:32:40.079
God in all things. And then there's the dialectical

00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:42.259
side, which is associated with Protestantism,

00:32:42.319 --> 00:32:45.490
which is a distrust. imagination, and also a

00:32:45.490 --> 00:32:49.730
distrust of things, a distrust of statues and

00:32:49.730 --> 00:32:55.549
like, do you worship Mary? Of scapulars and rosaries

00:32:55.549 --> 00:33:00.809
and all of these things. And so it's... a kind

00:33:00.809 --> 00:33:02.950
of foreign way to thinking, I think, to a Catholic

00:33:02.950 --> 00:33:05.609
to think that way, but also, I think, to a Protestant,

00:33:05.769 --> 00:33:08.529
a Catholic way of thinking is definitely. In

00:33:08.529 --> 00:33:10.470
fact, I'd love to read you a little paragraph

00:33:10.470 --> 00:33:13.329
from this book that I teach all the time by Andrew

00:33:13.329 --> 00:33:15.829
Greeley. Yeah, please. That'd be great. Yeah.

00:33:16.190 --> 00:33:18.650
Sorry, say the book again. It's called The Catholic

00:33:18.650 --> 00:33:22.589
Imagination, and it's by Andrew Greeley, who

00:33:22.589 --> 00:33:25.369
was a lovely man. He was a priest, a sociologist

00:33:25.369 --> 00:33:27.289
at the University of Chicago for many years,

00:33:27.369 --> 00:33:31.170
and also a novelist. But this book is a, you

00:33:31.170 --> 00:33:34.250
know, it's a lovely exploration of the ways of

00:33:34.250 --> 00:33:36.069
the enchanted imagination, the ways in which

00:33:36.069 --> 00:33:38.430
Catholics see the world. But I really just love

00:33:38.430 --> 00:33:41.190
the opening paragraph where he says, Catholics

00:33:41.190 --> 00:33:44.230
live in an enchanted world, a world of statues

00:33:44.230 --> 00:33:47.329
and holy water, stained glass and votive candles,

00:33:47.690 --> 00:33:50.849
saints and religious medals, rosary beads and

00:33:50.849 --> 00:33:53.819
holy pictures. But these Catholic paraphernalia

00:33:53.819 --> 00:33:56.299
are mere hints of a deeper and more pervasive

00:33:56.299 --> 00:33:58.880
religious sensibility, which inclines Catholics

00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:03.160
to see the holy lurking in creation. As Catholics,

00:34:03.259 --> 00:34:06.839
we find our houses and our world haunted by a

00:34:06.839 --> 00:34:09.500
sense that the objects, events, and persons of

00:34:09.500 --> 00:34:13.659
daily life are revelations of grace. And I just

00:34:13.659 --> 00:34:16.519
think this is such a synced and beautiful description

00:34:16.519 --> 00:34:19.340
of the analogical imagination, the sacramental

00:34:19.340 --> 00:34:22.780
imagination, the Catholic imagination. Yeah,

00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:25.320
it's so true. I mean, even in my evangelical

00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:27.679
days, I don't want to paint that experience like

00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:30.539
it was bad, you know, because it really brought

00:34:30.539 --> 00:34:32.539
me it brought me to Merton, it brought me to

00:34:32.539 --> 00:34:34.539
Henry now, and it brought me to the mystics,

00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:36.099
you know, because I had to break some stuff down.

00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:39.880
But even in my evangelical days, I mean, we were

00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:43.679
even we're even taught to like distrust your

00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:46.820
own emotions. You know, like there was this really

00:34:46.820 --> 00:34:50.920
big disconnect between anything that's embodied,

00:34:51.159 --> 00:34:54.480
anything sacramental around you in this object

00:34:54.480 --> 00:34:58.659
being God who can really only be accessed through

00:34:58.659 --> 00:35:03.139
church or scripture, you know? So yeah, but I

00:35:03.139 --> 00:35:05.739
didn't realize that growing up Catholic that.

00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:09.179
it is a sacramental reality that you're walking

00:35:09.179 --> 00:35:12.300
into. All the statues, all the prayers, all the

00:35:12.300 --> 00:35:15.820
holidays, all the, like I mentioned, the rhythm

00:35:15.820 --> 00:35:20.019
cadence of Holy Week. I mean, it's a really beautiful

00:35:20.019 --> 00:35:24.880
thing to think about your material reality being

00:35:24.880 --> 00:35:29.480
so enchanted. And that has to be positive for

00:35:29.480 --> 00:35:33.159
a child's psychology, I would think. Yeah, I

00:35:33.159 --> 00:35:35.739
think so, too. Just this kind of sense in which

00:35:35.739 --> 00:35:38.099
everything means something, you know, everything

00:35:38.099 --> 00:35:41.579
is full of possibility. And even time, time is

00:35:41.579 --> 00:35:44.900
enchanted, you know, liturgical time is holy

00:35:44.900 --> 00:35:48.260
and blessed. There's nothing that isn't holy.

00:35:48.900 --> 00:35:52.019
And so that wholeness of life, that fullness

00:35:52.019 --> 00:35:56.079
of life, I think it's just a very rich, rich

00:35:56.079 --> 00:35:59.579
life. And I don't think Catholics are the only

00:35:59.579 --> 00:36:01.599
ones that have it. I think, for example, that

00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:04.469
very... observant jews also have this because

00:36:04.469 --> 00:36:07.070
of that sense of you know you have this shabbat

00:36:07.070 --> 00:36:10.190
every every friday you know you set aside everything

00:36:10.190 --> 00:36:13.190
and then you just do this ritual meal with your

00:36:13.190 --> 00:36:16.230
family and you do no work you just devote yourself

00:36:16.230 --> 00:36:19.949
to god you know for the next 24 hours and um

00:36:19.949 --> 00:36:22.489
and of course all of the holy high holy days

00:36:22.489 --> 00:36:25.110
throughout the jewish liturgical year very very

00:36:25.110 --> 00:36:27.869
beautiful um and again that fullness of life

00:36:27.869 --> 00:36:30.699
the wholeness of life in which all of this means

00:36:30.699 --> 00:36:35.380
something, I think is very different from certainly

00:36:35.380 --> 00:36:39.119
the saintless calendar of days that secular people

00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:43.380
live, and entirely secular people live, and also

00:36:43.380 --> 00:36:45.860
a lot of Protestantism. I too had a period where

00:36:45.860 --> 00:36:49.880
I went over to the other side out of curiosity,

00:36:49.980 --> 00:36:53.710
I think. And the thing that I really appreciated

00:36:53.710 --> 00:36:55.570
from that is, you know, as Catholics, we're just

00:36:55.570 --> 00:36:58.949
terrible with the Bible. Yeah. We hear the same

00:36:58.949 --> 00:37:01.050
stories week after week. We don't read the Bible.

00:37:01.170 --> 00:37:04.050
And I just, like, I loved the fact that Protestants

00:37:04.050 --> 00:37:07.050
read the Bible. So I learned all books of the

00:37:07.050 --> 00:37:09.710
Bible, and I read freely in it. And it was like,

00:37:09.829 --> 00:37:12.829
this is, whereas to contrast this, I remember

00:37:12.829 --> 00:37:15.570
being with my mom once. We were at her hairdresser's

00:37:15.570 --> 00:37:20.139
house. And I picked up a Bible, and I said, what

00:37:20.139 --> 00:37:22.679
is this mom and she said oh that's a protestant

00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:26.280
bible put that down i was like don't touch that

00:37:26.280 --> 00:37:28.280
don't touch that something bad might happen um

00:37:28.280 --> 00:37:30.380
because the catholic attitude was like you don't

00:37:30.380 --> 00:37:32.900
read that by yourself you just to what they read

00:37:32.900 --> 00:37:36.559
in church, but you don't read the Bible. So that

00:37:36.559 --> 00:37:38.880
was a real breakout for me to be able to like

00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:42.159
read scripture and, you know, appreciate the

00:37:42.159 --> 00:37:43.960
Bible in a way that I don't think I would have

00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:47.059
if I just continued to, you know, be in the Catholic

00:37:47.059 --> 00:37:49.139
church. And then of course, when I did go back,

00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:52.099
I brought with me this wonderful revelation,

00:37:52.179 --> 00:37:54.360
you know, that there's a big Bible out there

00:37:54.360 --> 00:37:57.320
that a lot of us don't know anything about. Yeah,

00:37:57.320 --> 00:38:00.440
no, that's a, I mean, that's a great point. I

00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:02.750
mean, and then. One thing I'm really grateful

00:38:02.750 --> 00:38:08.110
for from my kind of evangelical wanderings, as

00:38:08.110 --> 00:38:11.010
well as the personal nature of prayer, you know,

00:38:11.030 --> 00:38:13.690
which someone like Francis of Assisi really intuited.

00:38:13.769 --> 00:38:18.150
But, I mean, I don't think I realized growing

00:38:18.150 --> 00:38:21.829
up Catholic that I could pick up the Bible and

00:38:21.829 --> 00:38:25.429
read it, or that I could just pray and tell God

00:38:25.429 --> 00:38:28.349
what's on my heart or mind. you know, and talk

00:38:28.349 --> 00:38:31.650
to God like God's a friend. And so, I mean, it's

00:38:31.650 --> 00:38:34.769
very interesting because those are on ramps to

00:38:34.769 --> 00:38:37.829
a sacramental reality too. They probably wouldn't

00:38:37.829 --> 00:38:41.829
use that language, but it is. It's like God's

00:38:41.829 --> 00:38:46.010
right here. God's here in the present moment,

00:38:46.050 --> 00:38:48.730
and you can talk to God anytime you want, and

00:38:48.730 --> 00:38:51.150
you can open and read sacred scripture anytime

00:38:51.150 --> 00:38:54.289
you want. It's a dark side to it as well, because

00:38:54.289 --> 00:38:56.949
I think the Bible itself becomes its own God

00:38:56.949 --> 00:39:01.889
in theology and dogma and certainty, the drug

00:39:01.889 --> 00:39:06.309
of certainty when people are interpreting. I

00:39:06.309 --> 00:39:10.230
mean, I thought that I had all the answers when

00:39:10.230 --> 00:39:17.030
I was going deep into it. But I had this renewed

00:39:17.030 --> 00:39:19.670
love for Scripture, and it came alive in the

00:39:19.670 --> 00:39:22.559
Mass when I returned. because of my knowledge

00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:24.519
for the Bible that I learned in my evangelical

00:39:24.519 --> 00:39:28.369
kind of journey. Very interesting. Yeah, yeah,

00:39:28.409 --> 00:39:30.530
absolutely. One of the things that Flannery O

00:39:30.530 --> 00:39:32.590
'Connor writes about in one of her essays, she

00:39:32.590 --> 00:39:34.869
writes wonderful essays about her work as well

00:39:34.869 --> 00:39:39.369
as the work itself. She grew up and lived most

00:39:39.369 --> 00:39:41.949
of her life in the Protestant South. In Georgia,

00:39:42.070 --> 00:39:43.929
where she lived, there were very few Catholics.

00:39:44.150 --> 00:39:46.269
So she and her family were the exception to the

00:39:46.269 --> 00:39:49.190
rule. But she loved living among evangelical

00:39:49.190 --> 00:39:52.400
Protestants because they knew their Bible. And

00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:55.219
then, of course, she knew the Bible. And so many

00:39:55.219 --> 00:39:59.059
of her stories engage in very interesting ways,

00:39:59.139 --> 00:40:02.480
Scripture, in a way that a lot of Catholic writers

00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:06.940
don't, because her formation was both as a Catholic,

00:40:06.980 --> 00:40:09.639
but also as a Southern Catholic in the evangelical

00:40:09.639 --> 00:40:14.869
world. So she says, like, I have this whole vocabulary

00:40:14.869 --> 00:40:17.070
and this whole set of stories that I can draw

00:40:17.070 --> 00:40:20.469
on that, you know, most Catholic writers don't

00:40:20.469 --> 00:40:24.050
have. Yeah, so I think that that's very interesting.

00:40:24.230 --> 00:40:26.469
You know, in general, we don't do a great job

00:40:26.469 --> 00:40:29.250
with education. So, like, growing up, like, I

00:40:29.250 --> 00:40:31.610
didn't know anything about the way that St. Francis

00:40:31.610 --> 00:40:33.789
prayed or the way that St. Ignatius prayed. I

00:40:33.789 --> 00:40:36.309
had to wait to become an adult and an academic,

00:40:36.429 --> 00:40:41.170
you know, to learn about these things. And I

00:40:41.170 --> 00:40:42.710
think that's one of the things in the church

00:40:42.710 --> 00:40:45.369
that we need to figure out how to do better.

00:40:45.530 --> 00:40:47.969
You know, like we just have this amazing, rich

00:40:47.969 --> 00:40:49.510
tradition. We have this Catholic intellectual

00:40:49.510 --> 00:40:53.670
tradition. We have this Catholic artistic tradition,

00:40:53.769 --> 00:40:56.650
aesthetic tradition. And it's so rich. But most

00:40:56.650 --> 00:40:59.230
Catholics, many Catholics don't know anything

00:40:59.230 --> 00:41:02.110
about it, which is one of the reasons that we

00:41:02.110 --> 00:41:03.929
have. Like I teach at a Catholic university,

00:41:04.110 --> 00:41:07.190
but we have a Catholic studies minor because.

00:41:07.769 --> 00:41:09.309
You know, a lot of our Catholic students, they

00:41:09.309 --> 00:41:11.750
come into our classes and it's like, wow, I never

00:41:11.750 --> 00:41:15.670
knew any of this stuff. Only place that they

00:41:15.670 --> 00:41:18.230
can find it, you know. So, yeah, so it would

00:41:18.230 --> 00:41:20.849
be lovely to find a way to make more of this

00:41:20.849 --> 00:41:23.050
available to Catholics because it's such a gift,

00:41:23.130 --> 00:41:26.869
you know. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Going back to

00:41:26.869 --> 00:41:30.449
the Catholic imagination here. You mentioned

00:41:30.449 --> 00:41:32.730
your childhood, how you really felt like you

00:41:32.730 --> 00:41:35.730
had to grow up at eight years old after the passing

00:41:35.730 --> 00:41:38.269
of your father. And I was just curious, I mean,

00:41:38.289 --> 00:41:42.429
how does the Catholic imagination show up in

00:41:42.429 --> 00:41:48.449
your work? Or this, I mean, words are going to

00:41:48.449 --> 00:41:51.630
fall short here of the trauma you and your siblings

00:41:51.630 --> 00:41:56.760
experienced in your youth. this very, at a very

00:41:56.760 --> 00:41:59.840
formative time going through something so dark.

00:41:59.940 --> 00:42:02.639
I mean, I cannot begin to fathom. I mean, how

00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:06.119
do all these paradoxes and mystery and darkness

00:42:06.119 --> 00:42:08.280
and light, I mean, the Catholic imagination,

00:42:08.500 --> 00:42:11.360
how does it show up in your work as a poet? Yeah,

00:42:11.440 --> 00:42:13.619
that's a great question. It's actually one of

00:42:13.619 --> 00:42:15.480
the reasons I got interested in this subject

00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:17.599
of the Catholic imagination and the idea of like

00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:20.159
reading Catholic writers is when I started to

00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:24.000
examine my own work and think like, am i catholic

00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:25.860
writer i mean i i just thought of myself as a

00:42:25.860 --> 00:42:28.940
writer um but then it was like you know i'm reading

00:42:28.940 --> 00:42:30.820
all these other catholic writers and i'm seeing

00:42:30.820 --> 00:42:33.039
elements of their catholicism like it must be

00:42:33.039 --> 00:42:36.219
in my work too somehow so so it was a you know

00:42:36.219 --> 00:42:39.500
it was motivated in part by you know just self

00:42:39.500 --> 00:42:42.340
-discovery you know what am i doing unconsciously

00:42:42.340 --> 00:42:46.219
that makes my work catholic um and and one of

00:42:46.219 --> 00:42:48.079
the things i think that's really important about

00:42:48.079 --> 00:42:52.289
that early that that early um imprinting is,

00:42:52.409 --> 00:42:55.329
you know, learning to deal with darkness, learning

00:42:55.329 --> 00:42:58.369
to deal with sorrow and loss and death and figure

00:42:58.369 --> 00:43:01.329
out where to put that is been like my first couple

00:43:01.329 --> 00:43:03.570
of books. That's what those there are narratives,

00:43:03.769 --> 00:43:06.409
their family narratives, their narratives about

00:43:06.409 --> 00:43:08.469
growing up in the place that I grew up, northeastern

00:43:08.469 --> 00:43:10.489
Pennsylvania, which at that time was coal mining

00:43:10.489 --> 00:43:14.429
country. And it was it was very poor, very hardscrabble

00:43:14.429 --> 00:43:17.429
place. There were accidents, mining accidents

00:43:17.429 --> 00:43:20.809
all the time. My grandfather. from Sicily was

00:43:20.809 --> 00:43:24.769
dead at the age of 33 from black lung and influenza.

00:43:25.269 --> 00:43:28.710
You know, I mean, where we lived in Wyoming Valley,

00:43:28.869 --> 00:43:31.949
I mean, it's kind of macabre. There were many

00:43:31.949 --> 00:43:34.130
people, so many minors that had black lung that

00:43:34.130 --> 00:43:36.269
when you went into a person's house, there would

00:43:36.269 --> 00:43:39.170
be your uncle or your grandfather or your father

00:43:39.170 --> 00:43:41.889
sitting in the corner on oxygen. And he kind

00:43:41.889 --> 00:43:44.349
of moved in the living room with his oxygen because

00:43:44.349 --> 00:43:46.389
he couldn't go up the stairs anymore. And we

00:43:46.389 --> 00:43:47.849
didn't think anything of that. It's like, oh,

00:43:47.869 --> 00:43:49.590
yeah, there's your uncle. Hi, how are you doing?

00:43:49.710 --> 00:43:51.250
Because like we thought everybody lived that

00:43:51.250 --> 00:43:54.969
way, but they didn't realize how dysfunctional

00:43:54.969 --> 00:43:57.610
it was. So it was very interesting to me as I

00:43:57.610 --> 00:43:59.829
got to be an adult and I got out of that world

00:43:59.829 --> 00:44:02.610
and I realized, oh, that was that was exceptional.

00:44:02.730 --> 00:44:04.989
That was an exceptional place with a lot of suffering.

00:44:05.329 --> 00:44:07.010
Everybody was Catholic where I grew up because

00:44:07.010 --> 00:44:09.650
you were either our diversity was you were Italian,

00:44:09.849 --> 00:44:12.329
you were Irish or you were Polish, because those

00:44:12.329 --> 00:44:14.030
are all the people who came to work in the mines.

00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:16.780
did share, even though we had these different

00:44:16.780 --> 00:44:18.880
cultures, different languages, is the fact that

00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:21.760
we were all Catholic and we had this, even though

00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:23.599
our churches were as different as could be also

00:44:23.599 --> 00:44:27.360
the art in the churches. But it was still this

00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:29.900
kind of, that was the backbone of our world.

00:44:29.940 --> 00:44:32.679
And suffering was just a part of everybody's

00:44:32.679 --> 00:44:35.579
vocabulary, a part of everybody's life. This

00:44:35.579 --> 00:44:37.539
kind of brokenness that you had to learn to deal

00:44:37.539 --> 00:44:41.559
with. And so I think poetry gave me one way to

00:44:41.559 --> 00:44:43.679
deal with that brokenness. Like, I'm going to

00:44:43.679 --> 00:44:46.559
tell these stories. I'm going to, and in some

00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:50.280
sense, it's like, you know, you're a reporter.

00:44:50.539 --> 00:44:51.900
Like, I'm going to tell about it. But you're

00:44:51.900 --> 00:44:54.239
also a myth maker in many ways because you're

00:44:54.239 --> 00:44:57.059
trying to. see meaning in what it is that has

00:44:57.059 --> 00:44:59.380
happened to you and has happened to the people

00:44:59.380 --> 00:45:01.320
that you love and has happened to this place.

00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:04.460
So a lot of my early poems sort of will put...

00:45:04.840 --> 00:45:07.099
coal mining region into the context of other

00:45:07.099 --> 00:45:10.380
places like, you know, ancient Greece or, you

00:45:10.380 --> 00:45:12.219
know, other places and other times where there

00:45:12.219 --> 00:45:14.440
have been other families that disaster has befallen.

00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:18.960
So it's, you know, it is a way for us, you know,

00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:21.780
those people who like to write and like to recreate

00:45:21.780 --> 00:45:25.960
art to see our own personal suffering as part

00:45:25.960 --> 00:45:29.519
of this larger universe of suffering and of what

00:45:29.519 --> 00:45:33.380
it is to be a human. So I think in the early

00:45:33.380 --> 00:45:35.539
poems, that's the ways in which my Catholic imagination

00:45:35.539 --> 00:45:39.099
manifests itself. And also it's just... I remember

00:45:39.099 --> 00:45:41.159
saying to somebody after my first book came out,

00:45:41.219 --> 00:45:42.880
so like, do you think this feels like a Catholic

00:45:42.880 --> 00:45:47.119
book? And it's like, oh, yes. So much imagery,

00:45:47.360 --> 00:45:50.519
you know, the statues, the crucifixes everywhere,

00:45:50.920 --> 00:45:56.219
even the language, you know. And again, I didn't

00:45:56.219 --> 00:45:57.840
deliberately say, well, I'm going to insert my

00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:00.019
Catholic imagination here. It was just, that's

00:46:00.019 --> 00:46:02.340
the milieu I grew up in, and it's going to come

00:46:02.340 --> 00:46:06.360
out in the work. Yeah, so, but it keeps on changing.

00:46:07.820 --> 00:46:10.099
Every book is different over the last however

00:46:10.099 --> 00:46:13.630
many years I've been writing. And it comes out

00:46:13.630 --> 00:46:16.130
in other ways in other books. So, for example,

00:46:16.130 --> 00:46:18.050
I went into the Holy Land a few years ago in

00:46:18.050 --> 00:46:21.409
2019, right before COVID. And that was fascinating

00:46:21.409 --> 00:46:23.949
because I got to go to all of these places that

00:46:23.949 --> 00:46:26.829
were so storied in my imagination. I had heard

00:46:26.829 --> 00:46:29.329
about the Sea of Galilee. I had heard about the

00:46:29.329 --> 00:46:32.710
Dead Sea. I had heard about Bethlehem. And here

00:46:32.710 --> 00:46:35.889
I was, here I was, like standing on the ground,

00:46:36.030 --> 00:46:38.590
you know, the very ground where Jesus walked.

00:46:38.869 --> 00:46:42.110
And it was so powerful because I began to feel

00:46:42.110 --> 00:46:45.139
like, I was seeing him in the landscape. And

00:46:45.139 --> 00:46:47.139
so I wrote a series of poems that are called

00:46:47.139 --> 00:46:50.280
Christ Sightings, which are like places where

00:46:50.280 --> 00:46:53.019
I felt the presence, the presence, the ongoing

00:46:53.019 --> 00:46:56.480
presence of Christ there and was like reimagining

00:46:56.480 --> 00:46:59.500
classic stories and seeing them from different

00:46:59.500 --> 00:47:02.920
perspectives. So that's, again, a way in which

00:47:02.920 --> 00:47:06.420
my Catholic imagination was, you know. operating

00:47:06.420 --> 00:47:08.679
without my wanting it to this is just what it

00:47:08.679 --> 00:47:10.940
did and so i i just felt like i was the scribe

00:47:10.940 --> 00:47:13.380
you know i was writing down some cases i didn't

00:47:13.380 --> 00:47:16.179
pencil with me i'm like typing myself email poems

00:47:16.179 --> 00:47:21.239
so that um yeah and so that was another that's

00:47:21.239 --> 00:47:23.940
another manifestation of of you know the way

00:47:23.940 --> 00:47:26.519
the catholic imagination emerged has emerged

00:47:26.519 --> 00:47:31.500
in my work absolutely yeah how has How has poetry

00:47:31.500 --> 00:47:36.079
helped you to find healing in your own life or

00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:40.380
to navigate the darkness of life? How has poetry

00:47:40.380 --> 00:47:43.559
been a guide for you in that regard? Well, you

00:47:43.559 --> 00:47:45.420
know, I think one of the things, one of the reasons

00:47:45.420 --> 00:47:48.559
people, poets like to write, and I think everybody

00:47:48.559 --> 00:47:51.480
should write poetry, by the way. I give my students

00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:53.760
the choice at the end of the semester to write

00:47:53.760 --> 00:47:57.159
a research paper or to write a series of 14 sonnets.

00:47:58.360 --> 00:48:01.639
They've never written sonnets before. And a lot

00:48:01.639 --> 00:48:03.940
of them take up the offer because they think,

00:48:04.019 --> 00:48:06.400
well, that's a lot easier than writing a paper,

00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:09.380
right? That's only 196 lines of poetry instead

00:48:09.380 --> 00:48:12.139
of a 14 -page paper, right? And of course, they

00:48:12.139 --> 00:48:13.800
very quickly... find out that it's not easier,

00:48:13.880 --> 00:48:16.880
it's harder. But they also fall in love with

00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:19.960
the process of writing. Because, you know, especially

00:48:19.960 --> 00:48:23.159
writing in form, there's a lot of stuff in the

00:48:23.159 --> 00:48:25.739
universe that we can't control. But I can control

00:48:25.739 --> 00:48:28.920
what's going on in these 14 lines. I can control

00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:31.519
the times. I can control the cadence. I can control

00:48:31.519 --> 00:48:34.280
the story that I'm telling. And that is very

00:48:34.280 --> 00:48:38.519
empowering. And it's also very healing. Because,

00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:42.739
you know, obviously expression is a form of being

00:48:42.739 --> 00:48:46.679
able to... People who do therapy know this. It's

00:48:46.679 --> 00:48:51.179
a way of trying to heal from whatever suffering

00:48:51.179 --> 00:48:54.400
and sorrow you might be having. I learned this

00:48:54.400 --> 00:48:56.659
when my mother was dying, for example. There's

00:48:56.659 --> 00:48:59.039
a book that I wrote which is called Waking My

00:48:59.039 --> 00:49:02.719
Mother. And this is actually a picture of her

00:49:02.719 --> 00:49:07.340
on the cover when she was... And we had a very

00:49:07.340 --> 00:49:09.500
complicated relationship. She was a very, very

00:49:09.500 --> 00:49:13.139
complicated mother. But when she was dying down

00:49:13.139 --> 00:49:15.619
in Florida, I was here in New York and I could

00:49:15.619 --> 00:49:18.760
not be with her. There were a couple of big snowstorms.

00:49:18.760 --> 00:49:20.900
I couldn't get a flight out and she was undergoing

00:49:20.900 --> 00:49:24.219
surgery and I didn't know what to do. My sisters

00:49:24.219 --> 00:49:26.079
were down there with her, my brothers, but I

00:49:26.079 --> 00:49:28.840
was here. And so I sat down, I thought, I'm just,

00:49:28.900 --> 00:49:30.159
I'm going to write a poem. I'm going to write

00:49:30.159 --> 00:49:33.239
a poem about my mother. And, you know, and then

00:49:33.239 --> 00:49:35.940
that. that would that wasn't enough i wrote one

00:49:35.940 --> 00:49:38.179
poem so then i i wrote a second poem i actually

00:49:38.179 --> 00:49:40.599
took the line of the last sonnet the last line

00:49:40.599 --> 00:49:43.059
of the sonnet and i started the next line next

00:49:43.059 --> 00:49:46.179
on it with that line and then i wrote and then

00:49:46.179 --> 00:49:47.739
i took the last line of that one and i wrote

00:49:47.739 --> 00:49:51.019
another one and before i knew it i had a 15 sonnet

00:49:52.159 --> 00:49:54.000
Crown, it's called The Crown, The Crown of Sonnets.

00:49:54.519 --> 00:49:57.739
And I had no idea what I was going to say in

00:49:57.739 --> 00:50:01.099
that. The story just sort of poured out of me

00:50:01.099 --> 00:50:04.500
and gave me an opportunity to think about things

00:50:04.500 --> 00:50:06.780
I had not thought about for a long time. And

00:50:06.780 --> 00:50:10.300
it was pulled out of me by the form, by writing

00:50:10.300 --> 00:50:13.260
these lines one after another, by finding the

00:50:13.260 --> 00:50:16.099
right rhymes, by finding the right cadences.

00:50:17.869 --> 00:50:20.449
and you know a sonnet i love sonnets uh the sonetti

00:50:20.449 --> 00:50:23.130
means a little song uh and and these are actually

00:50:23.130 --> 00:50:25.650
little pieces of music um they're meant to be

00:50:25.650 --> 00:50:27.570
performed they're meant to be read out loud not

00:50:27.570 --> 00:50:31.480
to be read silently um and so there's that relief

00:50:31.480 --> 00:50:34.059
that we get from music when we write poetry as

00:50:34.059 --> 00:50:37.420
well uh that i think is is again very healing

00:50:37.420 --> 00:50:40.840
and um and very sacramental as saint augustine

00:50:40.840 --> 00:50:45.340
says you know uh sing once pray twice uh there's

00:50:45.340 --> 00:50:47.599
there's the quality of prayer that goes into

00:50:47.599 --> 00:50:52.039
the um devotion that we show when we're working

00:50:52.039 --> 00:50:57.099
hard on on making our art yeah yeah and i love

00:50:57.099 --> 00:51:00.579
that um I mean, this is certainly true in memoir

00:51:00.579 --> 00:51:04.360
and any storytelling as well, but particularly

00:51:04.360 --> 00:51:08.619
with poetry, I love that as you're writing it,

00:51:08.719 --> 00:51:13.500
you usually don't know where it's going. So there's

00:51:13.500 --> 00:51:19.260
this element of surprise that is... you're you're

00:51:19.260 --> 00:51:22.199
uncovering you're uncovering something potentially

00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:25.460
that you had you had no idea was even there and

00:51:25.460 --> 00:51:28.719
to me there's so much healing in that too you

00:51:28.719 --> 00:51:32.480
know like you're you're you're certainly not

00:51:32.480 --> 00:51:35.139
controlling the river you're not pushing the

00:51:35.139 --> 00:51:37.380
river as you know Richard Rohr says like you

00:51:37.380 --> 00:51:39.860
you're you're entering into the flow of it and

00:51:39.860 --> 00:51:42.039
you're seeing where it takes you I mean that

00:51:42.039 --> 00:51:44.840
certainly comes out in poetry I mean do you have

00:51:44.840 --> 00:51:48.130
any thoughts on that I mean it It just always

00:51:48.130 --> 00:51:51.750
seems to surprise me what comes up in the creative

00:51:51.750 --> 00:51:56.369
process. My passion's memoir, and it's similar

00:51:56.369 --> 00:51:59.849
there, too. It's like, gosh, I had no idea that

00:51:59.849 --> 00:52:02.489
was there, but it's there, and I'm reading it.

00:52:03.570 --> 00:52:07.099
Yeah, no, it's true. It's a process of discovery.

00:52:07.260 --> 00:52:09.619
And it's an act of faith, really. You turn yourself

00:52:09.619 --> 00:52:13.300
over to the process. And Czeslaw Milosz has a

00:52:13.300 --> 00:52:15.960
wonderful poem, the great Nobel Prize winning

00:52:15.960 --> 00:52:19.260
Polish Catholic poet called Ars Poetica, in which

00:52:19.260 --> 00:52:21.340
he says, you know, sometimes when he says it

00:52:21.340 --> 00:52:22.860
much better than this, but I'm paraphrasing.

00:52:23.079 --> 00:52:27.559
Sometimes when you write, a tiger has sprung

00:52:27.559 --> 00:52:29.960
out of you and it stands there in the light lashing

00:52:29.960 --> 00:52:34.110
its tail. Where did that come from? So writing

00:52:34.110 --> 00:52:36.250
poetry can be a terrifying experience because

00:52:36.250 --> 00:52:38.730
you say things sometimes that you didn't know

00:52:38.730 --> 00:52:41.889
that you thought, and you might not even want

00:52:41.889 --> 00:52:46.610
other people to read it. But you have to have

00:52:46.610 --> 00:52:50.030
faith in the process. As Pope Francis says in

00:52:50.030 --> 00:52:52.469
his letter that he read to us, you have to have

00:52:52.469 --> 00:52:54.849
faith in the imagination. He uses the word the

00:52:54.849 --> 00:52:57.670
superabundance and overflowing, and you have

00:52:57.670 --> 00:53:00.269
to be able to pursue that superabundance because

00:53:00.269 --> 00:53:03.480
if you hold back you're you're you're missing

00:53:03.480 --> 00:53:05.679
it you're missing the fire you're missing the

00:53:05.679 --> 00:53:08.079
divine that is because the divine is super abundant

00:53:08.079 --> 00:53:11.179
and the imagination is a channeling of the divine

00:53:11.179 --> 00:53:14.000
um so i love milo's statement on this i also

00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:16.380
love frost who's no catholic but he was a great

00:53:16.380 --> 00:53:19.199
poet um who said you know no surprise in the

00:53:19.199 --> 00:53:22.920
reader i'm sorry no surprise in the writer no

00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:26.670
surprise in the reader no tears No tears in the

00:53:26.670 --> 00:53:29.289
reader. So unless you're surprised, you cannot

00:53:29.289 --> 00:53:31.710
expect your reader to be surprised by what comes

00:53:31.710 --> 00:53:34.610
out. So again, you have to be just faithful to

00:53:34.610 --> 00:53:37.050
this impulse that you have, this imaginative

00:53:37.050 --> 00:53:40.369
impulse when you write. Yeah, yeah, I love it.

00:53:40.489 --> 00:53:44.489
So you recently wrote a poetry book based on

00:53:44.489 --> 00:53:48.530
Dante's Divine Comedy. Got it right here. Paraclete

00:53:48.530 --> 00:53:51.750
Press. Where does this book fit into this conversation

00:53:51.750 --> 00:53:54.860
about the Catholic imagination? Yeah, well, of

00:53:54.860 --> 00:53:58.699
course, Dante is the great Catholic poet. And,

00:53:58.800 --> 00:54:01.739
you know, most of us who are in the college or

00:54:01.739 --> 00:54:04.119
studied literature, we've read Dante at various

00:54:04.119 --> 00:54:07.699
times throughout our career. And I think most

00:54:07.699 --> 00:54:11.119
people think, OK, he lived 700 years ago. Catholicism

00:54:11.119 --> 00:54:13.880
was very different then. He has a medieval mind.

00:54:14.079 --> 00:54:16.760
You know, he's just he's like another kind of

00:54:16.760 --> 00:54:18.900
creature. Plus, he writes in Italian. Most of

00:54:18.900 --> 00:54:21.340
us don't read Italian. So there are a lot of

00:54:21.340 --> 00:54:24.000
barriers that might separate us from Dante. He's

00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:26.219
like a star up in the heavens, like Shakespeare.

00:54:26.480 --> 00:54:32.239
But I was rereading Dante for a couple of reasons.

00:54:32.380 --> 00:54:34.300
For one thing, I run a Dante reading group on

00:54:34.300 --> 00:54:37.320
campus at Fordham. So we've been slowly reading

00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:41.360
Dante one canto at a time for 10 years. Oh, cool.

00:54:41.679 --> 00:54:44.360
We just got finished with, we're just in the

00:54:44.360 --> 00:54:47.079
third canto of Purgatorio. So this is how slow,

00:54:47.219 --> 00:54:50.250
how slowly we're going. So I've been just rereading

00:54:50.250 --> 00:54:53.369
Dante slowly with other professors and students.

00:54:54.090 --> 00:54:57.309
And then it was Dante's, it was the 700th anniversary

00:54:57.309 --> 00:55:00.090
of Dante's death a couple of years ago and the

00:55:00.090 --> 00:55:02.929
anniversary of the Commedia. So I thought, you

00:55:02.929 --> 00:55:04.469
know, I'm going to spend the summer just like

00:55:04.469 --> 00:55:07.449
rereading the, you know, the Divine Comedy, one

00:55:07.449 --> 00:55:10.730
canto a day, 100 cantos, 100 days in summer,

00:55:10.849 --> 00:55:13.349
you know, it's going to work. And then I found

00:55:13.349 --> 00:55:18.150
myself talking back to Dante. Time is my writing

00:55:18.150 --> 00:55:20.610
time. And so if I started the day reading Dante,

00:55:20.710 --> 00:55:23.989
then I'd start like a poem that would like jump

00:55:23.989 --> 00:55:26.409
off of one of the events that happens in the

00:55:26.409 --> 00:55:28.570
Inferno or in the Purgatorio or in the party.

00:55:29.690 --> 00:55:32.190
I didn't intend to write a book. I really just

00:55:32.190 --> 00:55:34.510
intended to, okay, I'm just going to engage Dante

00:55:34.510 --> 00:55:37.630
in conversation and see in what ways we're alike

00:55:37.630 --> 00:55:40.969
and in which ways we're different. And then,

00:55:41.070 --> 00:55:43.949
again, before I knew it, I had this collection

00:55:43.949 --> 00:55:48.449
of poems. And then I kind of deliberately shaped

00:55:48.449 --> 00:55:53.190
it. There are 13 poems devoted to Inferno, 13

00:55:53.190 --> 00:55:55.829
to Purgatorio, 13 to Paradiso, and then a couple

00:55:55.829 --> 00:55:59.050
of poems at the beginning and the end. And, you

00:55:59.050 --> 00:56:01.110
know, some of the poems are, you know, homage

00:56:01.110 --> 00:56:03.829
to Dante. Some of them are asking Dante questions,

00:56:04.429 --> 00:56:08.710
differing with Dante. And so it was a really

00:56:08.710 --> 00:56:13.389
fun way to engage this and feel like I was establishing

00:56:13.389 --> 00:56:17.440
some sort of friendship with Dante. Sure. I mean,

00:56:17.460 --> 00:56:20.059
I hope one day when I meet him in eternity, he's

00:56:20.059 --> 00:56:24.139
going to like think that this was okay. He'll

00:56:24.139 --> 00:56:25.840
be like, before we meet, you have to go through

00:56:25.840 --> 00:56:33.699
the three levels. Yeah. Yeah. So it was a labor

00:56:33.699 --> 00:56:36.900
of love, and I really enjoyed doing it. It gave

00:56:36.900 --> 00:56:39.199
me also a chance to do some interesting formal

00:56:39.199 --> 00:56:42.199
things. Dante wrote in a number of forms, but

00:56:42.199 --> 00:56:44.360
his favorite forms were the sonnet and then terza

00:56:44.360 --> 00:56:46.719
rima, which he invented actually for the commedia.

00:56:47.000 --> 00:56:49.320
So I thought, well, this is fun. I get to try

00:56:49.320 --> 00:56:52.800
to write in terza rima, and I put my own stamp

00:56:52.800 --> 00:56:57.059
on it. Dante's verse, it's different in each

00:56:57.059 --> 00:57:00.460
of the cantos, but it tends to be more elegant.

00:57:00.460 --> 00:57:03.360
elevated and refined, especially in Purgatorio

00:57:03.360 --> 00:57:08.159
and in Paradiso. And there's a sort of, you know,

00:57:08.199 --> 00:57:10.920
mellifluous quality to his Italian, certainly,

00:57:11.039 --> 00:57:13.519
and also to the English translations. And I was

00:57:13.519 --> 00:57:16.179
trying to write in language that was going to

00:57:16.179 --> 00:57:20.440
feel very contemporary and maybe a little bit,

00:57:20.440 --> 00:57:23.739
how shall I say, a little bit off the cuff, a

00:57:23.739 --> 00:57:30.320
little bit, words are escaping me. you know a

00:57:30.320 --> 00:57:33.940
little bit bratty at times a little bit brat

00:57:33.940 --> 00:57:37.900
um in in terms of you know critiquing some of

00:57:37.900 --> 00:57:40.579
the theology that that dante offers us because

00:57:40.579 --> 00:57:43.320
obviously yeah we've changed a lot in 700 years

00:57:43.320 --> 00:57:47.539
sure yeah a little bit but what did you what

00:57:47.539 --> 00:57:50.320
did you learn about yourself as you wrote this

00:57:50.320 --> 00:57:54.190
book or creatively as an artist? What opened

00:57:54.190 --> 00:57:58.230
up for you as you wrote Dear Dante? Well, I learned

00:57:58.230 --> 00:58:01.210
a lot about Dante. And one of the things I really

00:58:01.210 --> 00:58:05.110
love about Dante is even though he's creating

00:58:05.110 --> 00:58:08.869
this theological universe, which is all about

00:58:08.869 --> 00:58:12.010
justice, it's also about mercy and it's also

00:58:12.010 --> 00:58:16.650
about love. And so often in... in all three of

00:58:16.650 --> 00:58:19.570
the levels, you know, Inferno, Purgatorio, and

00:58:19.570 --> 00:58:23.110
Paradiso, Dante is like weeping. He weeps with

00:58:23.110 --> 00:58:26.710
compassion for the sinners that he finds. So

00:58:26.710 --> 00:58:30.170
I think Dante has a reputation for being like

00:58:30.170 --> 00:58:32.369
very harsh because he puts all of these people

00:58:32.369 --> 00:58:35.420
in hell. But the fact is he... First of all,

00:58:35.440 --> 00:58:38.659
he believes that's his world. You have to grant

00:58:38.659 --> 00:58:41.699
an artist his worldview. But his response to

00:58:41.699 --> 00:58:46.099
Paolo and Francesca is to weep. He weeps at the

00:58:46.099 --> 00:58:50.429
suicides. At times he can't even speak. He asks

00:58:50.429 --> 00:58:52.610
Virgil, would you please speak for me? I can't

00:58:52.610 --> 00:58:55.489
speak. Virgil is, of course, his guide through

00:58:55.489 --> 00:59:00.369
Inferno and Purgatorio. So I just love the fact

00:59:00.369 --> 00:59:03.570
that Dante was able to separate himself. You

00:59:03.570 --> 00:59:06.130
know, Dante the pilgrim is different from Dante

00:59:06.130 --> 00:59:10.130
the poet. And that to me is like just masterful

00:59:10.130 --> 00:59:12.610
in terms of his ability to tell the story in

00:59:12.610 --> 00:59:15.110
that way. And then, of course, the language is

00:59:15.110 --> 00:59:20.019
just spectacular, you know. He's so inventive

00:59:20.019 --> 00:59:23.099
and he's so alive. His language is so alive.

00:59:23.619 --> 00:59:28.260
Any poet would kill to write like Dante. So to

00:59:28.260 --> 00:59:30.539
just have the opportunity to spend time in the

00:59:30.539 --> 00:59:36.539
presence of this master, it was just a joy. And

00:59:36.539 --> 00:59:40.420
even though... And I felt a little embarrassed

00:59:40.420 --> 00:59:42.980
putting my little poems next to Dante's great

00:59:42.980 --> 00:59:46.239
big poem. But I thought I would ask for forgiveness

00:59:46.239 --> 00:59:50.159
after I did that. But in the meantime, just go

00:59:50.159 --> 00:59:53.940
ahead with the gesture. And, you know, mostly,

00:59:54.519 --> 00:59:57.219
though, I enjoyed the process, you know, of being

00:59:57.219 --> 00:59:59.960
able to engage in conversation with Dante, just

00:59:59.960 --> 01:00:02.139
like I enjoy the process of being able to engage

01:00:02.139 --> 01:00:04.019
in conversation with Pope Francis. You know,

01:00:04.059 --> 01:00:07.880
like we meet greatness on the page or we meet

01:00:07.880 --> 01:00:12.539
greatness in real life. And, you know, it's hopefully

01:00:12.539 --> 01:00:16.579
some of Dante's. excellence has rubbed off on

01:00:16.579 --> 01:00:21.840
me. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. So I'm a storyteller.

01:00:21.880 --> 01:00:24.860
So like, I'm always making connections. So if

01:00:24.860 --> 01:00:27.440
there's nothing here, you can just be like, shut

01:00:27.440 --> 01:00:32.420
up next question. But I mean, I found it interesting.

01:00:32.659 --> 01:00:36.289
I mean, you And thank you, by the way, for talking

01:00:36.289 --> 01:00:39.789
about your childhood and opening up in our conversation.

01:00:40.050 --> 01:00:41.849
We were talking about our Catholic backgrounds

01:00:41.849 --> 01:00:46.590
and how you were really kind of tortured. Maybe

01:00:46.590 --> 01:00:49.170
that's too strong of a word, but at least haunted

01:00:49.170 --> 01:00:52.110
by this aspect of the afterlife. And then it's

01:00:52.110 --> 01:00:55.269
interesting to me, you know, in Dear Dante, I

01:00:55.269 --> 01:00:59.130
mean, Dante's Inferno, this is all about this.

01:00:59.559 --> 01:01:02.599
journey, this traversing through the layers of

01:01:02.599 --> 01:01:05.739
the afterlife. Is there any connection or healing

01:01:05.739 --> 01:01:09.019
there? Or what are your thoughts? What rises

01:01:09.019 --> 01:01:11.559
up within you as I ask that question? Yeah, that's

01:01:11.559 --> 01:01:13.800
actually a wonderful question. To what extent

01:01:13.800 --> 01:01:19.420
is this a personal sort of? Yeah, I think a couple

01:01:19.420 --> 01:01:23.340
of the revelations for me was, I'd read Dante

01:01:23.340 --> 01:01:25.820
previously, but this was a different kind of

01:01:25.820 --> 01:01:28.139
way of reading him, kind of reading him like

01:01:28.139 --> 01:01:31.980
I felt like I was a co -creator. I was looking

01:01:31.980 --> 01:01:36.340
at Inferno as a person who was really trying

01:01:36.340 --> 01:01:39.840
to figure out what it meant for me. And most

01:01:39.840 --> 01:01:42.420
of the sinners in hell... You know, it's not

01:01:42.420 --> 01:01:44.579
that they were sinners. It's just that they love

01:01:44.579 --> 01:01:47.559
their sin and they don't want to give it up.

01:01:48.000 --> 01:01:52.860
They really, they want to be there. And that

01:01:52.860 --> 01:01:55.500
comes as a comfort, I think, to all of us because

01:01:55.500 --> 01:01:59.420
we're all sinners. But recognizing it is the

01:01:59.420 --> 01:02:02.099
first step towards being able to be redeemed,

01:02:02.199 --> 01:02:06.840
right? And then purgatory is so much gentler

01:02:06.840 --> 01:02:09.619
than any purgatory I had ever imagined as a child.

01:02:09.739 --> 01:02:13.579
It's arduous. The souls have to work in order

01:02:13.579 --> 01:02:16.679
and, you know, but they they have hope. And that's

01:02:16.679 --> 01:02:18.780
what's so important. And the difference between

01:02:18.780 --> 01:02:21.500
Inferno, you know, abandoned hope, all ye who

01:02:21.500 --> 01:02:24.519
enter here is written over the over the gates

01:02:24.519 --> 01:02:26.599
of Inferno. And like, well, what's worse than

01:02:26.599 --> 01:02:29.480
living without hope? Like, that's just. eternity

01:02:29.480 --> 01:02:32.820
of suffering, as opposed to the Purgatorio, which

01:02:32.820 --> 01:02:35.320
is like, oh no, this is the land of hope. This

01:02:35.320 --> 01:02:39.099
is a kinder, gentler sea that Dante finds his

01:02:39.099 --> 01:02:44.139
boat heading towards. So then we see Dante, you

01:02:44.139 --> 01:02:46.480
know, make this journey and you feel like, okay,

01:02:46.559 --> 01:02:49.980
even if, who knows, if Purgatory is a reality.

01:02:51.360 --> 01:02:53.380
It's going to be very different than any of us

01:02:53.380 --> 01:02:56.719
imagines it's going to be. Right. And then, of

01:02:56.719 --> 01:02:58.960
course, the Paradiso, which is this magnificent,

01:02:59.280 --> 01:03:02.000
like almost like I use the expression, it's like

01:03:02.000 --> 01:03:04.119
Lucy in the sky with diamonds. It's like this.

01:03:04.380 --> 01:03:08.500
Yes. I love that in the introduction. Yeah, that's

01:03:08.500 --> 01:03:11.500
a great description. It's crazy, you know, that

01:03:11.500 --> 01:03:14.199
stuff that Dante is able to come up with, you

01:03:14.199 --> 01:03:16.659
know, in terms of describing it. And my favorite

01:03:16.659 --> 01:03:20.179
part of the Paradiso is there's a moment where

01:03:20.179 --> 01:03:23.400
Beatrice takes Dante up into the Imperium and

01:03:23.400 --> 01:03:26.119
he's able to look down at all the spheres and

01:03:26.119 --> 01:03:28.280
he sees the whole complexity of the universe.

01:03:29.800 --> 01:03:32.260
And well, actually, maybe I'll read that poem.

01:03:32.380 --> 01:03:34.280
Would that be OK? That'd be great. Yeah. Yeah.

01:03:34.360 --> 01:03:35.940
I was going to ask you to read a couple. So,

01:03:35.960 --> 01:03:38.480
yeah. Yeah. It's a wonderful moment where, you

01:03:38.480 --> 01:03:40.820
know, he really gets a vision of everything.

01:03:41.739 --> 01:03:47.260
And then he sees Earth. And Earth is this tiny,

01:03:47.420 --> 01:03:51.500
tiny little speck. And he talks about the fact

01:03:51.500 --> 01:03:54.739
that, you know, there's the threshing floor in

01:03:54.739 --> 01:03:58.820
which we are all so savage to each other. And

01:03:58.820 --> 01:04:04.380
so it's just this moment of, you know, recognition

01:04:04.380 --> 01:04:07.539
of this other way of looking at ourselves. Well,

01:04:07.539 --> 01:04:09.019
you know, of course, we think we're at the center

01:04:09.019 --> 01:04:10.960
of the universe and we think that all of our

01:04:10.960 --> 01:04:15.500
loves and our hatreds and our politics and like,

01:04:15.579 --> 01:04:18.000
oh, everything's just the worst. And Dante's

01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:21.880
kind of like, do you realize how infinitesimal

01:04:21.880 --> 01:04:24.960
you are? So this poem is called Dante's Smile.

01:04:25.099 --> 01:04:28.940
And each of the poems begins with a, an epigraph

01:04:28.940 --> 01:04:32.260
from whatever book of the, whatever book of the

01:04:32.260 --> 01:04:36.199
Comedian. This comes from Paradiso 22. And Dante

01:04:36.199 --> 01:04:39.159
says, my eyes returned through all the seven

01:04:39.159 --> 01:04:42.739
spheres and saw this globe in such a way that

01:04:42.739 --> 01:04:46.880
I smiled at its scrawny image. The little threshing

01:04:46.880 --> 01:04:50.980
floor that so incites our savagery was all from

01:04:50.980 --> 01:04:54.909
hills to riverbanks revealed to me. And this

01:04:54.909 --> 01:04:56.889
is called Dante's Smile, and this is written

01:04:56.889 --> 01:05:00.489
in Tercerima. The astronauts who saw the Earth

01:05:00.489 --> 01:05:04.570
wept. Hanging in the black of space, it shone

01:05:04.570 --> 01:05:07.750
like the prize they thought it was. A secret

01:05:07.750 --> 01:05:11.489
kept from ordinary men. They saw our home in

01:05:11.489 --> 01:05:15.130
all of its blue beauty and its charm. Truth they

01:05:15.130 --> 01:05:19.610
guessed, but hadn't fully known. But Dante saw

01:05:19.610 --> 01:05:23.099
it clearer. saw the harm we do ourselves and

01:05:23.099 --> 01:05:26.539
to the ones we love, he was surprised, utterly

01:05:26.539 --> 01:05:30.000
disarmed, to see from such a distance, so far

01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:33.420
above, the pettiness and the violence of our

01:05:33.420 --> 01:05:38.579
days, viciousness by even him undreamt of. And

01:05:38.579 --> 01:05:42.059
from his perch in heaven, in his days, he smiled,

01:05:42.239 --> 01:05:46.139
as the creator must smile too, to see our vanity,

01:05:46.440 --> 01:05:49.800
the brazen ways we do the things we're not supposed

01:05:49.800 --> 01:05:52.769
to do, and still think mercy's what we ought

01:05:52.769 --> 01:05:56.869
to get. Though surely Dante's smile is full of

01:05:56.869 --> 01:06:00.030
rue, a man who knows remorse and regret for his

01:06:00.030 --> 01:06:03.550
own sins, perhaps that's why he turns his gaze

01:06:03.550 --> 01:06:07.510
to Beatrice, though it's unmet, thus to let her

01:06:07.510 --> 01:06:11.050
know what he has learned, that folly is the rule

01:06:11.050 --> 01:06:14.769
among our kind, the gift of grace undeserved

01:06:14.769 --> 01:06:18.570
and unearned, the only source of joy we'll ever

01:06:18.570 --> 01:06:24.000
find. yeah so in that moment he looks to Beatrice

01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:26.179
because of course she's his guide and his beloved

01:06:26.179 --> 01:06:30.340
when he's in Paradiso and she's already looking

01:06:30.340 --> 01:06:32.880
off somewhere else and this is another thing

01:06:32.880 --> 01:06:37.639
I love about the the story Dante has this great

01:06:37.639 --> 01:06:40.300
affection for Virgil, the poet, who is his leader

01:06:40.300 --> 01:06:43.420
and guide. And, you know, he's his master. He

01:06:43.420 --> 01:06:46.239
depends on him. And then Virgil disappears at

01:06:46.239 --> 01:06:49.360
the end of Purgatorio because he can't go to

01:06:49.360 --> 01:06:52.360
heaven because Virgil is a pagan. And Dante is

01:06:52.360 --> 01:06:54.940
just like bereft. You know, he's weeping. He

01:06:54.940 --> 01:06:57.219
can't lose Virgil. And Beatrice is there, his

01:06:57.219 --> 01:06:59.380
beloved that he's been searching for all of his

01:06:59.380 --> 01:07:03.230
life. And she's there like, Dante, quit it. There's

01:07:03.230 --> 01:07:05.469
things to cry about. Like, I'm here. I'm here,

01:07:05.530 --> 01:07:08.610
Dante, to help you. So again, these very human

01:07:08.610 --> 01:07:11.590
moments. And then Dante has to get washed in

01:07:11.590 --> 01:07:13.489
the river of forgetfulness. And that's what the

01:07:13.489 --> 01:07:16.210
cover is. This is actually a sculpture done by

01:07:16.210 --> 01:07:19.510
the wonderful poet, wonderful sculptor, Tim Smaltz,

01:07:19.550 --> 01:07:22.750
Pope Francis's favorite sculptor. He made a hundred

01:07:22.750 --> 01:07:27.489
sculptures of each of the cantos of the Divine

01:07:27.489 --> 01:07:29.980
Comedy. So this is the one where... Wow. Yeah,

01:07:30.099 --> 01:07:31.880
and they're amazing. They're all in clay. And

01:07:31.880 --> 01:07:34.480
this is one where Mathilde, who's one of Beatrice's

01:07:34.480 --> 01:07:37.900
companions, is bathing Dante in the River Lethe,

01:07:38.039 --> 01:07:40.679
the River of Forgetfulness. It's a sort of a

01:07:40.679 --> 01:07:43.719
baptism that's going to wash away all of his

01:07:43.719 --> 01:07:46.800
sins. And so at that point, when Beatrice is

01:07:46.800 --> 01:07:49.719
saying, stop crying, I'm here, that's when Beatrice

01:07:49.719 --> 01:07:53.119
takes over and then takes him up to heaven and

01:07:53.119 --> 01:07:56.019
to tour the Paradiso. But Dante's always like

01:07:56.019 --> 01:07:58.559
two steps, three steps, four steps behind Beatrice.

01:07:59.079 --> 01:08:01.000
not really able to figure out what it is she's

01:08:01.000 --> 01:08:03.780
showing him and um so there's something just

01:08:03.780 --> 01:08:07.760
so poignant about him like trying to understand

01:08:07.760 --> 01:08:11.320
this great great mystery this vision that he

01:08:11.320 --> 01:08:13.900
has been given but feeling like i don't have

01:08:13.900 --> 01:08:16.439
the language for this i don't have a way to express

01:08:16.439 --> 01:08:20.340
it um and and so he's like so humble in front

01:08:20.340 --> 01:08:25.930
of this vision that he gets yeah yeah well mortality

01:08:25.930 --> 01:08:28.550
has certainly been a theme in this conversation.

01:08:28.789 --> 01:08:31.789
Um, and I mean, we began by talking about Pope

01:08:31.789 --> 01:08:35.170
Francis passing away. And then, um, we, we shared

01:08:35.170 --> 01:08:37.850
a little bit about our childhood spiritual journeys

01:08:37.850 --> 01:08:40.890
and then your, your book, dear Dante, um, as

01:08:40.890 --> 01:08:43.489
well, which is all about the afterlife. And I

01:08:43.489 --> 01:08:46.630
stumbled upon one of your poems, Merton surprise.

01:08:47.970 --> 01:08:52.149
And, um, I mean, gosh, any listeners to this

01:08:52.149 --> 01:08:54.430
podcast, if they made a drinking game of every

01:08:54.430 --> 01:08:57.189
time I quoted Merton, I mean, they would, they

01:08:57.189 --> 01:08:59.130
would, they would spend every single episode

01:08:59.130 --> 01:09:03.270
buzzed. But you have, you have a wonderful, you

01:09:03.270 --> 01:09:06.649
have a wonderful line in that you write, you

01:09:06.649 --> 01:09:09.310
saw in Merton, of course, a little background.

01:09:09.869 --> 01:09:13.850
He died very suddenly at what age of 52. Yeah.

01:09:14.430 --> 01:09:17.829
53 in bangkok thailand he was electrocuted and

01:09:17.829 --> 01:09:22.310
and then some some may argue it's conspiratorial

01:09:22.310 --> 01:09:26.430
but Some even say that his political activism

01:09:26.430 --> 01:09:31.489
got him assassinated or executed. So the point

01:09:31.489 --> 01:09:34.510
is that he died very young. And I mean, to think

01:09:34.510 --> 01:09:37.289
that we could have 30, 40 more years of writings

01:09:37.289 --> 01:09:39.710
from Merton with the spiritual direction he was

01:09:39.710 --> 01:09:42.229
going into Eastern religions, it's incredible.

01:09:42.390 --> 01:09:45.890
But so this is the line that comes in your poem,

01:09:45.989 --> 01:09:48.710
Merton's Surprise. You saw what you were tumbling

01:09:48.710 --> 01:09:52.350
toward and smiled. as you're describing his death.

01:09:52.489 --> 01:09:56.989
And I just thought that that was a really beautiful

01:09:56.989 --> 01:10:01.810
and hopeful summary of the afterlife. So yeah,

01:10:01.850 --> 01:10:04.609
I would like for you to close with one poem from

01:10:05.130 --> 01:10:07.289
Dear Dante, another one, if you don't mind. But

01:10:07.289 --> 01:10:09.569
do you have anything to add there about mortality,

01:10:09.750 --> 01:10:11.930
afterlife, or any other theme from this conversation?

01:10:12.430 --> 01:10:15.149
Yeah, I mean, the reason I wrote the poem, by

01:10:15.149 --> 01:10:17.770
the way, and mentioned the tumbling is I remember

01:10:17.770 --> 01:10:20.890
one of Merton's brother monks seeing an interview

01:10:20.890 --> 01:10:24.220
with him. And, you know, monks are wonderful.

01:10:24.399 --> 01:10:27.939
They're just so serene. And the interviewer said,

01:10:28.060 --> 01:10:29.939
well, you know, were you sad? Were you surprised

01:10:29.939 --> 01:10:31.840
when you found out about Merton's death? And

01:10:31.840 --> 01:10:34.880
they said, no, actually, Tom was really clumsy.

01:10:35.100 --> 01:10:38.859
He was always falling. It amazed us that he made

01:10:38.859 --> 01:10:40.939
it as far as he did. And so there was just something.

01:10:41.039 --> 01:10:43.380
And he laughed. There was something so humanizing

01:10:43.380 --> 01:10:45.720
about that. When I heard that line, I mean, I.

01:10:46.640 --> 01:10:51.720
I heard it on my run earlier today and I thought

01:10:51.720 --> 01:10:54.920
of Pope Francis. I thought of my mom who passed

01:10:54.920 --> 01:10:59.079
away real suddenly four years ago. And yeah,

01:10:59.159 --> 01:11:01.579
I mean, you saw what you were tumbling toward

01:11:01.579 --> 01:11:04.439
and smiled. I mean, tumbling is such a beautiful

01:11:04.439 --> 01:11:07.819
word because I mean, it kind of points toward

01:11:07.819 --> 01:11:10.060
the clumsiness of Merton, like you said, but

01:11:10.060 --> 01:11:14.529
then. In this theological exploration, in this

01:11:14.529 --> 01:11:16.869
creative exploration with the Catholic imagination,

01:11:17.170 --> 01:11:19.890
I mean, there's a tumbling aspect to it. I mean,

01:11:19.909 --> 01:11:23.069
it's not linear, you know, it can feel kind of

01:11:23.069 --> 01:11:25.710
chaotic or out of control as this river kind

01:11:25.710 --> 01:11:28.229
of opens up to you. But would you mind reading

01:11:28.229 --> 01:11:31.369
one more poem from Dear Dante and sending us

01:11:31.369 --> 01:11:35.289
out? Well, the last poem actually is, it's called

01:11:35.289 --> 01:11:39.789
The Price of Paradise. And this is, again, that

01:11:39.789 --> 01:11:42.270
theme that Dante had where he felt as though

01:11:42.270 --> 01:11:47.649
he has seen so much and there's no way he could

01:11:47.649 --> 01:11:49.890
find the language to be able to say it, which

01:11:49.890 --> 01:11:51.510
is kind of hilarious when you think about the

01:11:51.510 --> 01:11:54.409
fact that we've just read a 14 ,000 word poem,

01:11:54.569 --> 01:11:58.810
line poem. You seem to have found a lot of language,

01:11:58.869 --> 01:12:01.069
but he still felt like there's really, I can't

01:12:01.069 --> 01:12:03.869
tell you what it is that I've seen. This is just

01:12:03.869 --> 01:12:06.789
the merest shadow of it. So that really struck

01:12:06.789 --> 01:12:09.930
me. And so this is the last poem in the book

01:12:09.930 --> 01:12:13.210
before the epilogues. And it's quotes from Paradiso

01:12:13.210 --> 01:12:16.430
33, where he says, what little I recall is to

01:12:16.430 --> 01:12:20.109
be told from this point on in words more weak

01:12:20.109 --> 01:12:24.109
than those of one whose infant tongue still bathes

01:12:24.109 --> 01:12:27.260
at the breast. And then there's another epigraph

01:12:27.260 --> 01:12:31.539
from Matthew 18. Truly, I tell you, unless you

01:12:31.539 --> 01:12:34.260
change and become like little children, you will

01:12:34.260 --> 01:12:37.659
never enter the kingdom of heaven. Look at you

01:12:37.659 --> 01:12:42.739
knowing your Bible. Thanks to the Francis. So

01:12:42.739 --> 01:12:45.859
the price of paradise. The power of speech, the

01:12:45.859 --> 01:12:48.960
price Dante paid for a brief fleeting vision

01:12:48.960 --> 01:12:52.619
of God. Words, his instruments, tools of his

01:12:52.619 --> 01:12:56.479
trade simply vanished. The stunned poet saw deep

01:12:56.479 --> 01:12:59.779
mysteries his tongue could not tell. The fires

01:12:59.779 --> 01:13:02.739
of purgation, the horrors of hell did not rob

01:13:02.739 --> 01:13:07.399
him as high heaven did. Lost to himself, he became

01:13:07.399 --> 01:13:10.920
otherwise, was rendered young and dumb again.

01:13:11.420 --> 01:13:14.659
This is what happens in paradise. When the soul

01:13:14.659 --> 01:13:17.659
encounters the Holy One, there is no longer need

01:13:17.659 --> 01:13:21.079
for a poem. All you have written becomes mere

01:13:21.079 --> 01:13:25.300
straw. and eternity looms of languageless awe.

01:13:28.020 --> 01:13:30.359
Beautiful. Yeah. Well, thank you for coming on

01:13:30.359 --> 01:13:33.359
the podcast, Dr. Angela. Thank you so much, Stephen.

01:13:33.439 --> 01:13:41.020
This was a great pleasure. Once again, that was

01:13:41.020 --> 01:13:44.590
Dr. Angela Alima O'Donnell. You can find all

01:13:44.590 --> 01:13:47.250
her books on Amazon or visit Paraclete Press'

01:13:47.430 --> 01:13:50.029
website to order her two most recent poetry books,

01:13:50.210 --> 01:13:53.470
Dear Dante and Holy Land. You can follow her

01:13:53.470 --> 01:13:57.289
on Twitter at the handle aodonnellangela or on

01:13:57.289 --> 01:14:01.699
Instagram at angela .a .odonnell. I've linked

01:14:01.699 --> 01:14:04.539
to her books, some of her recent magazine pieces,

01:14:04.739 --> 01:14:09.779
as well as to her social media in the show notes

01:14:09.779 --> 01:14:13.359
of this episode. So thanks for tuning in, and

01:14:13.359 --> 01:14:16.159
thank you as always for your support. And lastly,

01:14:16.260 --> 01:14:19.140
thank you to Father Cyprian Concilio for providing

01:14:19.140 --> 01:14:23.220
the music for this episode. Peace and all good.

01:14:30.569 --> 01:14:33.670
me and tenderly speak to your heart.