Welcome to Off the Page, and I'm Stephen Copeland.
Listening, following, rediscovering, and healing.
These are four categories that help to name the
different aspects of the spiritual life. Listening
to God, following God, rediscovering God, and
then healing our relationships with God, ourselves,
and others. Of course, there's nothing linear
about these categories, though maybe the spiritual
journey begins that way. And our guest this episode,
Maureen O 'Brien, discusses how these four categories
in her own life have felt like something of a
spiral. As she listens, follows, rediscovers,
and heals, it is as if she is sliding deeper
into love, truth, and beauty. Maureen O 'Brien
is a remarkable talent. Her award -winning short
stories and poems have been published widely
in magazines and anthologies. She lives in Connecticut,
where she taught creative writing to teenagers
for 25 years, and she holds a master's in creative
writing and a bachelor's in philosophy and religion.
She is the author of What Was Lost? Seeking Refuge
in the Psalms. and Gather the Fragments, My Year
of Finding God's Love. And she is a longtime
contributor to Franciscan media. She recently
authored the February 2025 cover story in the
St. Anthony Messenger, a timeless piece that
we revisit this episode, and I have linked to
in the show notes. This was a freewheeling and
dynamic conversation. I thank Maureen for being
so honest and open about her own journey in this
episode, which really helped to create the space
for me to do so as well. We talked about grief.
We talked about doubt. And we talked about those
lonely, terrifying moments in life where it feels
like God has abandoned us. One of the things
I love about these four categories that I mentioned
is that they help us to name the nameless. The
spiritual journey can be so complex and messy
and mysterious that it can be difficult to put
into words. And these four categories are mere
attempts at that. But I do love these four buckets,
if you will. They do invite movement, adventure,
growth, and integration. And you can enter into
the journey from wherever you are. Our reflection
segments this episode, our meditation moments,
were recorded by Susan Heinz Brigger, an executive
editor for the St. Anthony Messenger, who has
worked at Franciscan Media for 30 years. I'm
really excited to share this episode with you.
So without further ado, here is author, poet,
and longtime Franciscan Media contributor, Maureen
O 'Brien. Maureen O 'Brien, welcome to the Off
the Page podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you
for having me. Yeah, to begin, can you tell listeners
a little bit about your background and your writing
background in particular? So I started out as
a poet. I was trained as a poet as an undergraduate
and then in graduate school, and then I moved
into fiction. My first book that came out a long
time ago was a novel called Bee Mother, and I
did pretty well with that, and I enjoyed it.
You know, I was always publishing as a fiction
writer and then short stories and poetry and
memoir. But then as my life went on and my spirituality
developed, I was asked about I think it's been
about six years. My career just took a complete
pivot with Franciscan media when they reached
out to me and asked if I would do a blog on Mary.
They had it was called Seven Days with Mary.
And I had never written. anything that personal
in terms of my faith. I've always had a faith.
I've always been exploring my faith and developing
my faith. But so that ended up really falling
into place and I loved it and I loved getting
feedback on it. And pretty much ever since then,
I've been writing for Franciscan Media, Franciscan
Media, and things have been going on and just
exploring that and taking. more and more risks
as a writer in saying what my experiences have
been and getting more intimate with the reader
and, like, I guess just peeling away the masks
as a writer and getting to an elemental place.
And honestly, none of this is what I really wanted
to do because I wanted to be more... this is
like i was just looking like just to be more
cool like all of a sudden i'm publishing all
this religious stuff or spiritual stuff and what
i realized was just that was just a mask and
so in the first memoir that i did with francisca
media what was lost seeking refuge in the psalms
i talk about uh being in a cc and looking being
in the church with the um How do you say that?
Portioncola. I never can say that. Portioncola.
I never say that word right. I always botch it
as well. Yeah. Portioncola. Portioncola or something
like that. Yes, thank you. So I was in there
and I was watching all these people. It was such
a beautiful thing. And there's friars and people
from all backgrounds. And I thought, wow, this
is so beautiful to watch all of these people
on their pilgrimages. And then I was like, wait
a minute. I'm on a pilgrimage. I'm a pilgrim.
This is what I am. And so actually, I think I
had this. Yeah. So I had. All right. So this
was just a read for a second from the first memoir.
Yeah, that'd be great. Thank you. So I have.
I'm sitting there watching all of these people.
I said. They're going into the port scene. I
watched them take their turns entering, thinking
how wonderful it was that all these friars could
come on this pilgrimage. this special trip to
a sacred town visiting all the relics then i
burst out laughing i was on a pilgrimage i was
visiting everything they were i was having the
time of my life riding up in the artist colony
and walking the mountains where francis walked
i had wept at claire's bones in the basilica
of santa chiara i'd sat for an hour in front
of the cross of san damiano i'd spent a whole
day staring at the giotto frescoes at the basilica
of st francis how did this happen i was a pilgrim
on a pilgrimage it seemed so uncool at first
which is a ridiculous thing to think but there
it was very quickly the feeling of embarrassment
passed and gave way to a pride radiating from
my gut this is who i was i thought of that day
that i'd witnessed the pilgrimage of the walkers
carrying crosses from santa fe to chamayo i'd
become one of them Someone willing to travel
far to find. So I think that's like, we're talking
about different things about like, like our ideas,
listening, following, rediscovering, healing.
I can't remember if we even said those yet, but
just surrendering to the process of traveling,
writing about Francis and really saying who I
am and how my, what, how my faith has been. working
in me and constantly uncovering these beautiful
things and very painful things as well like that
healing part of the heartache looking at the
heartache but the writing that i've been able
to do for franciscan media has it's been an honor
because i've been able to really tell the truth
and and the idea of like okay oh i wanted to
be cool now i'm not cool i'm a holy fool like
What a gift for me to be able to have in writing.
It's a gift to me to be able to see how God has
taken care of me and guided me. I have so much
proof of how I have been guided there. I can't,
no matter how cynical of a moment I might have,
I still see the guidance. Yeah. Yeah. What you're
talking about it. I mean, listeners of this podcast
won't be surprised to hear me bring up Merton
again, but Thomas Merton has the great quote
about art. Like art enables us to find ourselves
and lose ourselves at the same time. And like
you mentioned masks and that, that process of
when you are partnering with creativity and truly
allowing it to take you deeper into yourself,
into capital R reality. you, it is so bizarre
because you're finding yourself through losing
yourself. Yes. Do you have any thoughts on that?
I mean, it is, you're fine. It's so true because
so much of, so much of what I'm drawn to is what
I look at. So Claire's quote of like, you know,
we become what we gaze at. I, that's not her
exact quote. It's something like that. The Claire,
what we look at is what we become. And I feel
like being a writer and especially working in
memoir where I'm telling the truth about my life,
I'm not making anything up. I'm just observing.
I'm on call all the time to observe things. That's
my job as a writer is to see what's going on
in front of me. And the Franciscan way of being
present, I see amazing things all the time. I
just do. Because if you're paying attention,
they're right there. So it's just amazing to
me to actually notice things and value them.
I think the Franciscan way is also valuing the
tiny. You know, valuing, like in Gather the Fragments,
I have one of my favorite chapters. It's just
like a lightning bug in my room one night. Like
I was freaking out because... It was this beautiful
lightning bug, but I had wanted to see a field
of lightning bugs. That was what I had wanted.
And I didn't get that. But then all of a sudden
there's one lightning bug, like literally like
making my room like this beautifully lit, you
know, little cathedral. So I think the Franciscan
way is for me constantly, I guess, rediscovering
that. it's right here what I need is right here
but my thoughts say well I want more I need more
I deserve more like I'm not happy until that
more is there whatever that is and that's not
the Franciscan way Francis Francis is like to
me open your arms to what is right in front of
you it's not about 10 steps from now it's just
not so it's humbling Yeah. Yeah. And I would
like to get into those four themes that you mentioned,
you know, listening, following, rediscovering
and healing. But you mentioned Francis's arms
wide open. And that that makes me think of your
February cover story in the St. Anthony Messenger.
Beautiful story. Thank you. Talk to me about
that image of Francis entering into time and
time again, the divine abundance of the present
moment. Talk to me about that article and this
image and its impact on your own life. That's
OK. So this particular article, I was it was
one of the hardest things I've written. And I
will just share. So when you're writing articles,
they'll say, oh, you know, this will be due in
September, but it won't come out until February.
So there's always a lag time. So I knew that
it was about Francis and love for February, a
little bit, a little bit Valentine, which is
great. And so I work hard at my writing. I never
leave anything to the last minute. I don't like
having something hanging over my head, so I take
a lot of notes. I do a lot of charts. I journal.
So I had a bunch of ideas for this article that
I knew would probably have to do with death and
Francis keeping his arms open to all of life
and the acceptance that... You can, I guess,
pick and choose, but it's not going to lead you
where you want it to go. Life has death in it.
And if you are going to accept life on life's
terms, which is like a 12 -step concept of recovery,
life on life's terms, then you don't get to pick
and choose necessarily what's going to open your
heart. You just try and stay open. So those images
of death. had been coming to me about like wow
just how our arms are open to life and then to
the faults that we see in each other or the faults
that are seen in us so I opened that article
with you know being at the airport waiting for
a friend of mine and I'm watching all these people
hug and that is a truly Franciscan moment because
I'm just in the moment like you normally think
oh I'm at the airport I can't wait to just get
my friend and we'll drive away but Francis always
encourages just what is right in front of you.
You don't need to wait. Just look. And so I just
saw all these people, this kaleidoscope of people
hugging. And I did start thinking about the leper
and the idea of I just don't think waiting until
somebody becomes the person you want them to
be and then you're going to really love them.
That is not who I want to be. So the article
was due at the end of September. And I had most
of it done. And then in early September, I lost
somebody very close to me. My sister -in -law
died tragically. And it's been a very hard season
for me. Let's see. So I just finished another
article. That'll be, I think, in May in Let Us
Pray. I'll be talking about what that has been
for me. So the article became even harder in
a way. But ironically, I had already written
about accepting death as part of life. And then
I lost somebody so close to me. So my own writing
actually supported me through some of that early
grieving process of just keeping my heart wide
open. The other thing that has been a lot to
process in that death was that my sister -in
-law was really, really had a completely open
heart to Jesus. Like she was so open hearted
to Jesus. So it's just been a lot to unpack with
that. And the article itself in me acknowledging
that I had avoided going to a certain place along
the river because that was where I had associated
it with death. you know, finding out about a
student of mine who had overdosed and then two
boys who had drowned in that spot. I just was
like, oh, I'm just not going to go to that part
of the river. Became a complete metaphor for
me of you cannot just decide to not go somewhere
in life because death is going to be there. Death
is always going to be there. That's the river
of life itself. And yet Francis teaches me. to
still have an open heart and accept it. I don't
have to be necessarily, I can be afraid, we will
be afraid, but it allows me to let more light
into the whole truth of death itself and facing
death. So that article was very, I'm laughing
because it was like just a really big challenge.
And yet I ended it. With an image of a little
boy. I went to a farm stand. It's a little boy.
With his arms open. And I will. I will read that
part. Just the very ending. That would be great.
Thanks. So. This is lessons from a five -year
-old. So I'm talking in this part. About Francis
saying. Actually it was Murray Bodo. Talking
about Francis saying. we still can have innocence.
So Murray Bodo's quote is, the journey forward
into God is a journey backward to an original
innocence. We never fully recover, but we're
a sort of semi -paradise happens when love turns
into charity. And I love that quote about innocence
and finding innocence again within us. It's like,
I love his... We never go back, but there's a
semi -paradise. Like, okay, we can still find
it. So I tell the story of how I just went out
for ice cream, and then we had this horrible
storm come up. And then I learned later that
it had been almost like a tornado. And so I'm
describing being at the farm stand after the
storm. The raindrops had been heavy, huge. everything
now reflected with a layer of silver in the sun
i finished my cone and sat on a scratchy bale
of hay near a family the oldest brother a boy
around five years old stepped out from under
the dripping awning and spread his arms instinctively
expressing the joy of slanted sun -rays after
the storm had passed i burst out laughing at
his spontaneous gesture in response he stretched
his arms farther and dramatically lifted his
face to the sky His innocence showed me everything
I need as a follower of Francis. From centuries
ago, this mystic pervades our present lives with
the power to show us the depth of love that exists
right here. It's in the open arms of the skinny
kid making you laugh out loud at the farm stand.
And can you show the cover of that magazine real
quick for our viewers? Yeah. So, I mean, that's
what I found so brilliant about your conclusion
is that this kid is mirroring Francis's own acceptance
of the here, the now. Yeah. Yes, exactly. And,
you know, I struggled with ending the article
with that image, but as a poet, that's really
my base. Fundamentally, who I am as a writer
is to always go for the image. And I just was
like. just crossing paths with some innocent
kid and also that he did the idea of him like
going broader when a complete stranger is laughing
at him it was it was the it was the encounter
between us that was so beautiful so simple and
again the franciscan way it's always about that
encounter and having that positive encounter
so um i struggled with that image but franciscan
media has always been very supportive of my images
and i just was like i'll just that's That's where
it ends with it comes full circle back to the
child. It always comes back to the hope, the
innocence, the beauty, rebirth. So that's nothing
new for us as Christians. Here is Susan Hines
Brigger, executive editor for the St. Anthony
Messenger, with the first reflection for this
episode. I love the image that. Maureen has of
opening our arms wide open to things. It's shown
in the cover image of Francis lifting his arms
up to the heavens on the cover of the magazine
in which her issue or her article appears. It's
in her opening with the people embracing as they
come off the airplanes. And in the ending, when
she talks about the little boy who opens his
arms following the storm and then opens them
even wider. And it was such a profound image
to me. As a mom of four, I know what it's like
to have those arms extended to me, to, you know,
pick me up, they're saying, or embrace me. You
know, just seeing them do the same thing, open
their arms when they see something amazing. And
I think it's an image that we all should remember
that we learn things when we open ourselves up
to both good and bad. We have to embrace them
for what they are. And then we learn from that
and we grow from that. And there is such great
wonder in this world that we can take part in
if we just allow ourselves. Sometimes we get
so stuck in our day -to -day routines and ways
of thinking that we don't step outside that and
embrace new things. But sometimes great things
can come from doing so. We can learn about other
people. We can learn about ourselves through
doing that. And what a great opportunity it is
for us to grow both as ourselves personally and
along with others to create a greater community.
Yeah, well, the article, it really brings up
a fundamental question for a lot of people on
their spiritual journeys is, and maybe when it
comes to these four categories, the backstory
here is that you mentioned to me that Susan Hines
Brigger, her latest editorial in the March issue,
or maybe it was her Faith and Family column,
but she talks about these four categories in
the spiritual journey of listening to God, following
God, rediscovering God, and healing, healing
the world and healing our relationships with
ourselves and others as well. And your article
makes me think of what exactly does listening
to god look like in a world filled with death
because like i i think that that is that's a
struggle that's a struggle for me it's like it's
like can i really believe that there's beauty
and goodness and love and you know that that's
really flowing out of the very like core of the
universe as bonaventure talks about that it that
you know this fountain of love and goodness is
ever flowing into my life and world when when
like you said there are these confrontations
with death in your life that just sometimes like
you said about your sister -in -law i don't know
the full background there but When it comes to
something very traumatic or sudden, it's it's
almost like like I felt like this about my mom
when she passed away really suddenly at the age
of 60. Like she she had a heart screening two
weeks before and then they said she was good.
And then she passes away in the middle of the
night in her sleep. And it's this it's this bizarre
like confrontation with. Like like for her, for
example. it's like how can that happen that feels
preventable that feel it almost feels like a
glitch in the system you know um and i think
a lot of trauma and um you know uh sudden sudden
pain sudden death feels that way where it's like
it almost feels like this glitch but then i think
about everything that she represented which was
love and goodness and giving of herself day after
day to her children and to her church community.
And then I'm reminded of divine goodness and
love again, thinking of her. However, it's colliding
with my own confusion about why this world operates
this way, you know, where a perfectly healthy
person can pass away in the middle of the night.
Do you know what I'm saying? I know exactly.
Yes. And that's a lot of people have gone through
far worse than me. you know i mean you children
passing away lord have mercy i mean um cancer
diagnosis for you know a child or you know car
accidents i mean they're just you know plane
planes crashing and it is just unfathomable to
think about the pain and suffering but then It
does me no good to deny that love and beauty
exists as well. So it's like, what does listening
to God look like in the messiness of life that
is filled with darkness? That's the question.
It's so hard. I really appreciate you sharing
on such a personal level, what your journey has
been and like, you know, to lose your mom like
that. It's, it's just the only way is to just.
You know, you have to put one foot in front of
the other through that journey, but it's very
lonely. I think essentially grief is a very lonely
and exhausting journey. And I appreciate you
saying, okay, other people have had other things
that might seem more stark or whatever, but you
have every right to what your particular journey
is as a person, as a man, as a father, as a husband.
You know, it's... It's so hard. And I do think
that in terms of the listening, that was, that
is how I ended up being so in love with the Psalms
back to my own particular journey with Francis.
Like I, I absolutely still know like 15 years
after that began. That I don't know if I would
have made it through without the Psalms for exactly
the reasons you are saying. Like, I just, everything's,
the unfairness, the brokenness, the fear, all
of that. I just, I don't see how I would have
made it without reading prayers slash poems.
The Psalms are poems to me. If I hadn't. heard
that voice of lamenting i don't i don't i just
don't see how i would have made it through and
i'm so grateful for the psalms i still am i still
can't even believe what i i do uphold they are
perfect works of art i think those 150 i think
that they are absolutely perfect work of art
and but the lamenting is so important in terms
of the listening so i think it's When we're in
grief, trusting that it's being heard by God,
is God hearing? Are, like the Psalms, are our
tears being collected in a flask? Yes, I believe
they are. And I think my flask is pretty darn
big. Yours is, you know, it expands that flask.
It's catching those tears. The idea of like the
loneliness and the broken heartedness that we
have, the Psalms are there to catch all of that.
And what you're saying is exactly like so many
of the Psalms, like I'm paraphrasing horribly,
but it's like, hey, look, I'm hurting. I'm broken.
What are you doing, God? I'm in so much pain.
What's happening? But OK, I will believe in you.
There's that pivot that happens that makes me.
I identify with that, but I don't think you can
get to that place of being open to God's grace
unless you feel the feeling the lament has been
heard, the listening that God is listening to
you and has heard it, heard you crying. I don't
because then in return, once that happens, you're
willing to listen to God. One is willing to hear
God. But I think that the lament is so. so fundamental
to the human experience and jesus had it too
jesus quoted from the psalms you know why have
you forsaken me so it's it's going right to the
source as far as i'm concerned but that listening
and i think for those of us who have a connection
to nature i try and have i've got this well living
in new england you know in the winter time sometimes
i just go out into the woods and i'm like i'm
just gonna listen like is anybody around like
I'll hear like one little woodpecker and I'm
like, okay, it's one woodpecker. But what I've
started to understand is the quiet to listen
for the quiet, to listen for the peace is part
of my practice. So, and then listening to scripture,
my own journey had been going from really paying
attention to the Psalms to really being brought
right into the gospels. And I love them so much.
It's just hearing them and. Why were the Psalms
so important for you during that time in your
life? I know a beautiful memoir flows from that,
but that time in your life, why were the Psalms
such an anchor for you? And by the way, you're
saying something really profound here that I
just wanted to kind of call out real quick. In
listening to God in this world that is filled
with, that feels fractured at times and feels
like it has glitches at times and is completely,
feels permeated with darkness at times. You're
flipping it and you're not just saying that our
job isn't to listen. You're not just saying that
our job is to listen to God. You're saying, you're
flipping it and saying, God is listening to us.
And therefore... I mean, that is, I mean, the,
the, the, the visual you gave from the Psalms
is a stunning one that our, our tears are being
collected in a flask. I mean that, that, so,
so now all of a sudden, um, I don't even like
the phrase all of a sudden because it's, the
process is so messier than that. And it's not
a light bulb moment at all, but, but I know at
least for me. In my darkest days, whenever I
did feel as if I was not alone and that God was
meeting me where I was, as mysterious and baffling
as that could seem, that God is listening to
my anger and to my frustration and to my confusion
and to my hurt and everything, and to my curse
words. And God still dares to listen to me. Now
I can trust that God that wants to listen, that
doesn't turn God's back on the pain or even try
to explain the pain away, but just enters more
deeply into it. It still doesn't make anything
make sense. However, in a weird, mysterious way
for me, it was enough. The power of any type
of lament and then getting to the joy, it will
happen. It's a process. You go around. So when
I first committed to a psalm practice, which
was basically I was going to read a psalm a day,
but it didn't matter what order it was. I would
just randomly pick one. So when I turned 50,
My life completely turned upside down, and I
still don't really understand all of what happened.
So within a two -year period, I was diagnosed
with cancer and had several surgeries. And then
I'd been married for 23, 24 years at the time.
My marriage fell apart in a very, very... tumultuous
way. Like all of a sudden that was just gone.
So my family of four was gone. I had to have
a new identity from being married to, I had this
new word divorced, which was horrible to me.
And I ended up moving out of our home. Like it
wasn't sustainable that I could live in our home
that we'd had for 18 years. So that was gone.
And then And then I can't even, like, sometimes
I hear this list and I'm like, oh, my God, Maureen,
seriously? And then I fell. I had a horrible
fall in my own driveway on my 23rd wedding anniversary
when my husband and I first separated. And I
completely lost use of my left wrist. I shattered
my wrist and had to have two surgeries. It was
insane. And I was so, I was literally broken.
And I just will insert a little dark humor. Anything
in the Psalms about bones, broken bones being
healed, I totally loved because I was literally
broken. I was scared. I was beyond. I was just
so, so broken on every level. And something just
came to me where I thought, I am going to read
a Psalm a day. I'm going to start. every day
reading a psalm. I have no idea necessarily what
brought me to that, why I was obviously guided.
But the story that I tell in What Was Lost is
that I thought I would pray my marriage back
into shape. I would pray really, really, really
hard. And I would say, you know, love is kind,
love is patient, and all of that. I would say
our wedding vows every day. And that would make
it... magically happen I would magically have
my marriage come back and that is not what happened
my Bible fell open one day it was an it was my
old old Bible was a broken spine and it fell
open to Psalm 23 and I read it and it was like
I I need a new path I need I need this new path
and so that spiritual practice of the Psalms
um just oh my gosh it just so got me through
that entire time and you're sharing of when you
kind of like like cursing and getting angry in
what was lost i have a uh a section where i completely
lost it on god one day i was driving on a highway
and i couldn't see clearly like my windshield
wiper fluid stopped working And I'm like hurtling
down this highway. Trucks are going by me. I
just tell this whole story of, oh my gosh, like
I am going to lose my mind. And I did lose my
mind. I ended up just screaming at God, like,
what do you want from me? Like, you've taken
everything from me. It was the weekend before
my divorce and my house being sold within 48
hours. I was just screaming at God. And I just
like, when I was done, the car was so quiet and
my body was so quiet. And then like the miracle
could come once I got that out. And once I knew
God was listening to this, you have got to be
kidding me. You have taken everything from me.
And so. The peace that came to me after that,
after I got that out, and it actually strengthened
my relationship with God because nothing, it
was as if I just let God have it. And I blew
out my voice, you know, it was that bad. And
then. I was able to accept everything and I just
kind of quietly kept driving. It sounds so crazy,
but I also, I also, the other funny part about
that was that I, before I lost it, I stopped
at a gas station to get tapped. You know, I needed
wiper fluid. I didn't know what was happening.
And I swear, this is the truth. The kid who sold
me the wiper fluid. was wearing an Our Lady of
Guadalupe t -shirt. Like he had this huge Our
Lady of Guadalupe. And I just, you know, I was
protected. I realized, you know, you're on your
journey. But I think in terms of listening and
really getting to that fundamental element of
grief, that rock level, just grief. I have never
had that happen since then. I've had anger and
I've had disappointment, but that was as low
as it got, I would say. And what a gift that
was. I just was able to really move on to more
acceptance, healing, openness. And within, so
it must've been like, maybe it's January, February,
March. Within about 12 weeks after that is when
I found myself in Italy. outside of Cortona at
La Cella where I had never felt such peace. I
went to the place where Francis lived for two
years and I had a spiritual awakening of, I had
never felt that much after being where he had
been. And so I guess maybe what I'm saying is
that, you know, these ideas of, of say healing,
listening, feeling heard. absolutely leads to
healing. It's not a straight path. It's not even
a zigzaggy path. It is back to our spiral. It
is a spiral. But when I think about it now, that
within weeks after really expressing that grief,
that such grief and anger and disappointment,
all of a sudden it hollowed me out to being able
to feel that sense of peace, but also the gift
of being where Francis had walked. That was the
first time I ever, you know, I saw his little
room, his pillow, which was, you know, a log.
It was a log, you know, stuff like that. But
being where he was changed me. And that set me
on a whole new path of Franciscan faith because
I could not deny that sense of peace. I never
even knew it existed before. Again, here is Susan
Hines Brigger with the second reflection for
this episode. The concept of listening to God
is one that I really take seriously, and I had
to learn it the hard way. 22 years ago, I was
diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. Following
my diagnosis, needless to say, God and I had
some tough conversations. You know, why me? Why
now? Why this? I had two young children at the
time. Immediately, you know, you think of the
worst case scenarios. And so I would call out
to God in search of answers. And I felt like
I wasn't getting any answers from him. I felt
abandoned and lost. Suddenly something started
to happen. I would get calls from people who
said, my sister or sister -in -law or brother
has been diagnosed with MS. Would you be willing
to talk with them or just give them some reassuring
words or to let them know that there's someone
else out there that they could? reach out to
if they needed to. And this happened more and
more to me over time and over the years. And
I kind of came to the conclusion that this was
the Lord's way of putting me, he put me on this
path so that I was able to help others and use
my suffering to alleviate somehow the suffering
of others by walking with them. And it was that
realization that God really had listened to me.
He had heard my cries. And though he didn't answer
them the way that I wanted them to be answered,
he had heard me. Since then, we've had many conversations.
A lot of times, I just listen. Knowing that whatever
I need to hear, I will hear in time. And so it's
become almost like a friendship where I can say
anything to him that I need. I can be angry at
him. I can, you know, vent to him, just be sad
with him. And I know that he truly hears me.
He will be there for me and it may not be in
the way that I want him to be and it may not
be in the timing that I want, but he will be
there and he will put me in the right place and
give me the right path to walk. And that is very
comforting to me that I have someone who's got
my back all the time. How did that healing unfold
for you? And I know that it, like we talked about,
I know it's not like a one -time thing, like
healing is, it's ongoing, the spiral you talked
about. I mean, you're always going deeper and
deeper into your own continued conversion and
therefore your healing. It is true for seekers,
I think, that when we are the most broken and
we're willing to put work into it, deep healing
can... absolutely happen because you're so vulnerable
and so raw if you're willing to put in a little
bit of effort God will meet us way more than
halfway I really believe that I did wake up on
my 50th birthday with my surgeon saying Maureen
I think I got all the cancer out and so I said
to him how can I ever repay you for saving my
life and he said live a good life you can repay
me by living a good life and there's a lot to
unpack in that but after my first time crossing
paths with Francis that is what came to me I
was like wait a minute maybe I maybe I'm doing
that maybe after the cancer and brokenness and
the divorce and the loss maybe I am living a
good life by just following in these footsteps
of Christ And at that point, I don't know when
this happened, but it was probably Psalm 139
about God's omniscience. I started to really
see that God was searching for me, that I started
to feel like I was the lost one that was being
found. And that's so easy to say now. It sounds
so cliche, whatever. But I started to understand
that God had never left me. like i do believe
that god suffers with us and struggles with us
and i started to feel as if i had always been
just because bad things had happened didn't mean
that god had left me and that was so it sounds
so simple but that was a game changer and i don't
know at what point that really became um clear
just this idea of god how god's love finds me
all the time and so i do absolutely feel at this
point that nothing can i know that it's true
i believe that nothing can separate me from the
love of christ i i that is everything to me at
this point yeah well you're you're getting into
something else that's really profound as well
i love how you keep flipping it you know like
we talked about It's not just about listening
to God. It's about daring to believe that God's
listening to you. And then you mentioned the
shepherd going out and finding the one lost sheep.
So now it's not just about you following the
shepherd, like the shepherd's following and looking
for you. And I think there's something really
important there when it comes to rediscovering
God, because we tend to think that. god or whatever
word you want to use to name the unexplainable
force like undergirding life the universe the
world creation whatever word you want to use
there i mean we tend to think that we're we're
subjects we're peasants who have to go to the
the king on the throne and usually the king is
shaking his finger at us and is frustrated with
us about what we're like for me it was like it
seems like God's either mad at me for something
I'm doing or something I'm not doing. Yeah. Like
the perfectionist in me would just be like, there's
always something I'm doing that God's mad at
or something I'm not doing that God's mad at.
And it was just like this performance, you know,
kind of treadmill. I remember reading Henry Nowen's
Life of the Beloved and he flips things too,
where it's like, yeah. when god says this is
my beloved son on you my favor rests god's saying
that about you as well and i bring that up because
it makes me think of what you said about the
shepherd it's like yeah eventually maybe the
sheep does follow the shepherd again but what
a like earth -shattering like thought to think
about no the shepherd's also following you and
That's a different metaphor of God to discover.
I totally love that because I absolutely get
so much comfort out of there's nothing that I've
been through that he wouldn't understand, like
any sense of betrayal or loss. And I feel that
way about Mary, too, like what she had to witness
as a parent. She had to watch her child suffer
and was completely powerless over that. you know
also i just want to say briefly in terms of mary
one thing that my the recent trip to assisi that
i was so so many things captivated me but you
know the most famous picture of of saint francis
like the i guess it's shimabui you say like the
most famous portrait of francis that we all have
i have it over there um it's actually they they
crop it so it's just francis's face but in fact
he's actually right next to mary and angels And
I was so struck by that, that, wow, like here,
here, Francis is like never far from Mary. Like
Mary's always a part of, of the, of the narrative.
And it does have to do with trusting that, that
they, that they know what suffering really is
like hardcore powerlessness over, you know, another,
your own or somebody else's addiction. Or like
I've written lately about my mom's Alzheimer's
has been a big theme, like the pain of that.
How do I bring God? How does God bring me into
that situation? And what am I learning from it?
And just so many things, the loss of my sister
-in -law, like processing these different things
and some of the miracles that came out of that.
But it really is a faith of the human and the
divine. And I just can't imagine not having those
faces to turn to. That's what I get out of so
much of. My faith is just I need I need those
faces. I need people there. And it's a family
to me at this point. But the way you're talking
about, like the lamenting and and the grief you
have since your mom dying, it is a true dark
night of the soul. It really literally a dark
night of the soul of where are you? It's light
out. Is the dawn coming? It's it's. It's very,
very hard and very, that's profound to have that
type of grief. And you can't unring the bell,
like you can only go forward. But I do feel that
God is absolutely with us in all of that. And
I hear what you're saying about that striving,
you know, oh, if I do this, I'll be closer to
God. If I do that, I've been really just trying
to practice. I don't need to really do anything,
you know, like. My spiritual director, who was
constantly five steps ahead of me, as it should
be, I guess, said that when she stopped actually
thinking of herself as a spiritual seeker, she
felt great. I mean, this is a woman who's been,
you know, she's been on the spiritual path so
deeply for so long. And I was like, what do you
mean? Like, you're not thinking of yourself as
a spiritual seeker anymore. Isn't that who you
are? She was like, no, I'm just Alice. I'm not
there yet. Yeah. No, I mean, yeah, that's, yeah.
Even seeker is all wrapped up and you're doing
something, you know, you're the one you're seeking,
but then going back to a theme that is, you know,
kind of come to the surface several times throughout
this conversation. It's like, that can be true,
but also God's seeking you. Yes. I, and yes,
that has been like. I, I think out of all the
themes, the idea of like the following idea.
Okay. So like I follow God, but God follows me
or God is with, I mean, I believe God is completely
within, but that has been, um, I, I love that.
That's been my latest sort of challenge, I think,
to stop. And sometimes what happens is when I
write for pause and pray, I, you know, we write
the prayers that we write and then. They come
up, you write these prayers and then you don't
see them for a while. And then they actually
come up on the website. And I'm like, wow, I'm
helping myself because I need to take my own
advice with this particular prayer. And I wrote
one about the striving. Like we don't need to
be trying so hard. Yes, it's great to say a rosary.
It's great to light a candle. It's all these
things are wonderful. But fundamentally, I could
sit right here for the next 10 hours and. God
is still here. I don't need to be proving anything.
I think the striving unto itself is somewhat
suggesting that we're not together. That's a
great way to put it. Could you go a little deeper
into that? Yeah, that is. Yeah, so, yeah, it's
basically saying, yeah, like, it's like, okay.
it's a little bit too transactional maybe to
constantly think of this striving if i believe
that i'm loved deeply and and cherish which i
absolutely believe that from god but yet i'm
also saying i have to do these particular things
to get closer they're they're kind of at odds
with each other really yeah yeah i i think about
my daughter and son And particularly my almost
three -year -old son because, I mean, he's a
toddler. I mean, every day it's like, dude, do
you listen to me? But he's just having fun. Once
he's curious about it, he's going to do it no
matter how many times I tell him not to. But
I've thought about this as it pertains to spirituality.
It's like never in my wildest dreams would I
wake up. every single morning and think that
my son has to meet a certain criteria or listen
to me or do a certain, do all these things correctly.
Like in order for me to love him, like that,
that thought is just so absurd. And yet I used
to think that all the time about God is that,
all right, it's a new day. I need to prove it's
the proving. That's a great word that you used.
Right. And, and then to go deeper with that,
it's like, how much of that is all tied up in
the ego too. Putting myself in control rather
than humbly accepting God's love for me. You
know, frankly, it's easier to do the whole striving
thing. It's more torturous. Like it's more torturous,
but I say easier because it's more natural to
me. You know, like I, yeah, I can check these
things off. You know, like I'm good at that.
And I'm good at beating myself up, too, you know,
in the name of something holy. I'm good at that.
So it's like you can kind of root your spirituality
in your own performance driven kind of egoic
tendencies. In Gather the Fragments, I share
how one night I ended up in the Basilica of St.
Francis, which is, you know, I think one of the
whole I mean. we agree we're preaching to the
choir here I think we all agree it's like one
of the most holy spots in the world but so I
was in there I went to it all the time but I
ended up one night I ended up in there by myself
I was so there I was in one of the most beautiful
churches and they half the lights were turned
off because they were starting to shut it down
and I thought I've been so afraid of being alone
I have felt so alone and yet to use your language
which i really appreciate it just got turned
upside down i was like wait a minute right now
i'm alone in one of the holiest places and it
and the entire cathedral felt full of something
what it was i don't know spirit whatever you
want to call it but i wasn't lamenting that i
was all alone i was in the most beautiful spot
on the most beautiful frescoes you're ever gonna
see And there was like, I describe in the book,
there was just this sweetness to it. It was like,
oh, I've run and run and I've railed and railed
and lamented and lamented about being alone.
But here I am and I'm okay. And I'm in one of
the most beautiful spots and I get to enjoy it
by myself. And it was really holy and very, just
a very transforming situation to all of a sudden,
feel like god was just filling this enormous
space and i was in it i was in the center of
it yeah again just changed everything for me
we're we're good we're together you you got me
you like you've got my back it's basically what
what that moment was about i just oh it was so
great well yeah i mean it it's a really beautiful
visual you know because i mean i mentioned this
in a In our interview with Susan St. Singh as
well, but like one of my favorite philosophers,
he does a play on words with you can't spell
all one without alone. And the way I interpret
that, at least, is that there's something very
terrifying about entering into your own aloneness
because there are all these things and that you
have to confront, you know. Absolutely. And all
these things that you were clinging to, dreams,
ambitions, you know, things that didn't go my
way that, you know, like my life not looking
the way I thought it would look like there's.
And yet in that disorienting aloneness, sometimes
there isn't beauty flooding the place like you're
talking about. Other times there is because you
do the hard work to empty yourself and get to
that place. But then, yeah, I mean, it. I think
what you're saying is so important when it comes
to healing because to be alone with yourself,
to be alone with God, detached from all these
things I'm using to convince myself of my own
wholeness and completeness, detached from those
things, there's such a humble openness in that.
But I don't recommend it for everyone. I do recommend
it for everyone. But it is be ready for the dizzying,
the dizzying experience that that can be, you
know. Yes, it's so true. And I've recently had
a very healing experience that I'm not ready
to write about. I'm not ready to talk about when
the time comes. But in terms of some of that
earlier brokenness in my marriage. and how all
of that played out. I recently had a very, very
healing experience that blew my mind and again
has transformed me. I do believe that when we
are healing ourselves, like when we're operating,
when we've worked on ourselves and we're operating
from a healthy place, we are so necessary in
the world because we are finding beauty in the
ashes. That is true. We were able to go into
those ashes. wallow around maybe but when we
come back we have this thing and and we invite
other people to feel safer in their emotions
and in their journeys and so i'm kind of like
back to the beginning of rediscovery of wow um
in terms of my sister -in -law's death one of
my Father Mike, where I go, there's a number
of friars and I love them all for what they offer.
They're very, very different personalities, but
I love them all. And it's a blessing to have
so many friars right there. And Father Mike had
said, you know, God uses everything, you know,
like a tragic death, losses, war. God uses everything
to try and make God's presence known. And I absolutely
fundamentally believe that. at this point, but
it's rough because, you know, where there's so
much brokenness, but I think that sometimes I
really think for me as a Christian that I have
a fundamental defiance that I, it is, and maybe
that's not true for other people, but for me,
I have a fundamental defiance to not give into
cynicism. I just refuse. I just will not. And
so the striving is good for that because I just
can't afford cynicism. It's too dangerous for
me personally. But being a part of a community
and a part of a faith that is hope -centered
is where the healing is. I think the hope is
the healing. And you sort of go around and around
in that. But all of our stories, every year,
it's the hope. Of the return, the hope of the
return. And as we conclude here, Maureen, I mean,
I think you're bringing up something that's really
important and a great place for us to land because
you're absolutely right that. And I think as
we revisit all these themes, you know, listening,
following, rediscovering, healing, hope is the
thing that's undergirding all of it, you know,
and you mentioned something really important
is that. There is a striving toward hope, you
know, like there, and there has to be, because
that's, that's almost my declaration of faith
is that I'm going to keep striving toward hope
because I dare to believe that there is this
God that wanted to listen to me when I was in
my darkest moment, that there was this God that
went looking, following me. When I was lost and
couldn't be found, you know, there there is this
God worth rediscovering because God's never left
me. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, there and it's like
grounding it all in hope, I think, is so important
because that's something worth striving for.
You know, I sound like sound like Samwise Gamgee.
Isn't that Lord of the Rings quote? There's good
in this world, Mr. Frodo, and it's worth fighting
for. I won't do my accent. And it's true. And
I love that. I love it. Thank you so much for
this, by the way, Stephen. I was so looking forward
to talking to you because it really is just an
opportunity to ponder these things. Mary pondered
things in her heart. I use the word pondering
a lot, but this idea of hope. I just wrote down
like hope undergirding, listening, following,
rediscovering, healing. For hope to be under
that is just, it's comforting to a point of,
like, it's so real. It's real. But this idea
of hope, hope being under all of that. And also
that it's not either or. Oh, it's okay to, like,
it's okay to strive. It's okay to let go. Striving
toward hope is when I think of. the things that
are breaking my heart the most right now, absolutely
striving toward hope is going to be what I want
to choose. It is something to choose that's striving
toward hope. And, and also it means I'm not in
charge. I'm not the one who's, I don't know what's
going to happen. I don't know. It's not in my
control at all, but I can still have that hope
of whatever that is. And it's kind of promised
in a way like, The whole idea of Lent, the whole
idea of the nativity, all of that is about hope.
All of it. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, when
you're ready, Maureen, to talk about the next
phase of your downward spiral into rediscovering
and healing, we'll have you back on. Thank you.
I appreciate that. It's a doozy for me. And it's
all about God's grace and God's timing. which
is a whole other issue that god's timing thing
has been very frustrating for me um but yes thank
you so much i really appreciate you listening
to me and like just listening to the contours
of what my faith has been i really appreciate
the chance to share it i it's I don't take it
lightly. It helps me so much. It's just like
miracle grow. Thank you so much. Well, you have
a beautiful journey and an incredible heart that
you share with our readers week in and week out
through pause and pray and issue in and issue
out through St. Anthony Messenger. So thank you
for sharing your gifts with us. And yeah, we'll
have you on again soon. How's that sound? All
right. That sounds great. Thank you. Thanks for
coming on off the page, Maureen. Once again,
that was author and poet Maureen O 'Brien. I've
linked to her two books, her cover story and
her past work with Franciscan Media in the show
notes for this episode. If you enjoyed this episode,
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