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Welcome to Off the Page, and I'm Stephen Copeland.

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Listening, following, rediscovering, and healing.

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These are four categories that help to name the

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different aspects of the spiritual life. Listening

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to God, following God, rediscovering God, and

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then healing our relationships with God, ourselves,

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and others. Of course, there's nothing linear

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about these categories, though maybe the spiritual

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journey begins that way. And our guest this episode,

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Maureen O 'Brien, discusses how these four categories

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in her own life have felt like something of a

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spiral. As she listens, follows, rediscovers,

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and heals, it is as if she is sliding deeper

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into love, truth, and beauty. Maureen O 'Brien

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is a remarkable talent. Her award -winning short

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stories and poems have been published widely

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in magazines and anthologies. She lives in Connecticut,

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where she taught creative writing to teenagers

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for 25 years, and she holds a master's in creative

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writing and a bachelor's in philosophy and religion.

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She is the author of What Was Lost? Seeking Refuge

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in the Psalms. and Gather the Fragments, My Year

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of Finding God's Love. And she is a longtime

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contributor to Franciscan media. She recently

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authored the February 2025 cover story in the

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St. Anthony Messenger, a timeless piece that

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we revisit this episode, and I have linked to

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in the show notes. This was a freewheeling and

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dynamic conversation. I thank Maureen for being

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so honest and open about her own journey in this

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episode, which really helped to create the space

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for me to do so as well. We talked about grief.

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We talked about doubt. And we talked about those

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lonely, terrifying moments in life where it feels

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like God has abandoned us. One of the things

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I love about these four categories that I mentioned

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is that they help us to name the nameless. The

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spiritual journey can be so complex and messy

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and mysterious that it can be difficult to put

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into words. And these four categories are mere

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attempts at that. But I do love these four buckets,

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if you will. They do invite movement, adventure,

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growth, and integration. And you can enter into

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the journey from wherever you are. Our reflection

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segments this episode, our meditation moments,

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were recorded by Susan Heinz Brigger, an executive

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editor for the St. Anthony Messenger, who has

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worked at Franciscan Media for 30 years. I'm

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really excited to share this episode with you.

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So without further ado, here is author, poet,

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and longtime Franciscan Media contributor, Maureen

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O 'Brien. Maureen O 'Brien, welcome to the Off

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the Page podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you

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for having me. Yeah, to begin, can you tell listeners

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a little bit about your background and your writing

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background in particular? So I started out as

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a poet. I was trained as a poet as an undergraduate

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and then in graduate school, and then I moved

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into fiction. My first book that came out a long

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time ago was a novel called Bee Mother, and I

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did pretty well with that, and I enjoyed it.

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You know, I was always publishing as a fiction

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writer and then short stories and poetry and

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memoir. But then as my life went on and my spirituality

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developed, I was asked about I think it's been

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about six years. My career just took a complete

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pivot with Franciscan media when they reached

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out to me and asked if I would do a blog on Mary.

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They had it was called Seven Days with Mary.

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And I had never written. anything that personal

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in terms of my faith. I've always had a faith.

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I've always been exploring my faith and developing

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my faith. But so that ended up really falling

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into place and I loved it and I loved getting

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feedback on it. And pretty much ever since then,

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I've been writing for Franciscan Media, Franciscan

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Media, and things have been going on and just

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exploring that and taking. more and more risks

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as a writer in saying what my experiences have

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been and getting more intimate with the reader

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and, like, I guess just peeling away the masks

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as a writer and getting to an elemental place.

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And honestly, none of this is what I really wanted

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to do because I wanted to be more... this is

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like i was just looking like just to be more

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cool like all of a sudden i'm publishing all

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this religious stuff or spiritual stuff and what

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i realized was just that was just a mask and

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so in the first memoir that i did with francisca

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media what was lost seeking refuge in the psalms

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i talk about uh being in a cc and looking being

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in the church with the um How do you say that?

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Portioncola. I never can say that. Portioncola.

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I never say that word right. I always botch it

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as well. Yeah. Portioncola. Portioncola or something

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like that. Yes, thank you. So I was in there

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and I was watching all these people. It was such

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a beautiful thing. And there's friars and people

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from all backgrounds. And I thought, wow, this

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is so beautiful to watch all of these people

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on their pilgrimages. And then I was like, wait

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a minute. I'm on a pilgrimage. I'm a pilgrim.

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This is what I am. And so actually, I think I

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had this. Yeah. So I had. All right. So this

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was just a read for a second from the first memoir.

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Yeah, that'd be great. Thank you. So I have.

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I'm sitting there watching all of these people.

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I said. They're going into the port scene. I

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watched them take their turns entering, thinking

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how wonderful it was that all these friars could

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come on this pilgrimage. this special trip to

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a sacred town visiting all the relics then i

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burst out laughing i was on a pilgrimage i was

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visiting everything they were i was having the

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time of my life riding up in the artist colony

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and walking the mountains where francis walked

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i had wept at claire's bones in the basilica

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of santa chiara i'd sat for an hour in front

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of the cross of san damiano i'd spent a whole

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day staring at the giotto frescoes at the basilica

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of st francis how did this happen i was a pilgrim

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on a pilgrimage it seemed so uncool at first

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which is a ridiculous thing to think but there

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it was very quickly the feeling of embarrassment

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passed and gave way to a pride radiating from

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my gut this is who i was i thought of that day

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that i'd witnessed the pilgrimage of the walkers

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carrying crosses from santa fe to chamayo i'd

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become one of them Someone willing to travel

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far to find. So I think that's like, we're talking

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about different things about like, like our ideas,

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listening, following, rediscovering, healing.

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I can't remember if we even said those yet, but

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just surrendering to the process of traveling,

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writing about Francis and really saying who I

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am and how my, what, how my faith has been. working

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in me and constantly uncovering these beautiful

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things and very painful things as well like that

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healing part of the heartache looking at the

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heartache but the writing that i've been able

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to do for franciscan media has it's been an honor

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because i've been able to really tell the truth

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and and the idea of like okay oh i wanted to

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be cool now i'm not cool i'm a holy fool like

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What a gift for me to be able to have in writing.

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It's a gift to me to be able to see how God has

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taken care of me and guided me. I have so much

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proof of how I have been guided there. I can't,

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no matter how cynical of a moment I might have,

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I still see the guidance. Yeah. Yeah. What you're

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talking about it. I mean, listeners of this podcast

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won't be surprised to hear me bring up Merton

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again, but Thomas Merton has the great quote

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about art. Like art enables us to find ourselves

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and lose ourselves at the same time. And like

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you mentioned masks and that, that process of

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when you are partnering with creativity and truly

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allowing it to take you deeper into yourself,

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into capital R reality. you, it is so bizarre

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because you're finding yourself through losing

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yourself. Yes. Do you have any thoughts on that?

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I mean, it is, you're fine. It's so true because

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so much of, so much of what I'm drawn to is what

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I look at. So Claire's quote of like, you know,

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we become what we gaze at. I, that's not her

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exact quote. It's something like that. The Claire,

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what we look at is what we become. And I feel

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like being a writer and especially working in

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memoir where I'm telling the truth about my life,

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I'm not making anything up. I'm just observing.

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I'm on call all the time to observe things. That's

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my job as a writer is to see what's going on

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in front of me. And the Franciscan way of being

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present, I see amazing things all the time. I

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just do. Because if you're paying attention,

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they're right there. So it's just amazing to

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me to actually notice things and value them.

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I think the Franciscan way is also valuing the

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tiny. You know, valuing, like in Gather the Fragments,

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I have one of my favorite chapters. It's just

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like a lightning bug in my room one night. Like

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I was freaking out because... It was this beautiful

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lightning bug, but I had wanted to see a field

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of lightning bugs. That was what I had wanted.

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And I didn't get that. But then all of a sudden

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there's one lightning bug, like literally like

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making my room like this beautifully lit, you

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know, little cathedral. So I think the Franciscan

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way is for me constantly, I guess, rediscovering

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that. it's right here what I need is right here

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but my thoughts say well I want more I need more

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I deserve more like I'm not happy until that

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more is there whatever that is and that's not

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the Franciscan way Francis Francis is like to

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me open your arms to what is right in front of

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you it's not about 10 steps from now it's just

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not so it's humbling Yeah. Yeah. And I would

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like to get into those four themes that you mentioned,

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you know, listening, following, rediscovering

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and healing. But you mentioned Francis's arms

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wide open. And that that makes me think of your

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February cover story in the St. Anthony Messenger.

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Beautiful story. Thank you. Talk to me about

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that image of Francis entering into time and

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time again, the divine abundance of the present

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moment. Talk to me about that article and this

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image and its impact on your own life. That's

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OK. So this particular article, I was it was

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one of the hardest things I've written. And I

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will just share. So when you're writing articles,

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they'll say, oh, you know, this will be due in

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September, but it won't come out until February.

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So there's always a lag time. So I knew that

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it was about Francis and love for February, a

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little bit, a little bit Valentine, which is

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great. And so I work hard at my writing. I never

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leave anything to the last minute. I don't like

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having something hanging over my head, so I take

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a lot of notes. I do a lot of charts. I journal.

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So I had a bunch of ideas for this article that

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I knew would probably have to do with death and

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Francis keeping his arms open to all of life

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and the acceptance that... You can, I guess,

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pick and choose, but it's not going to lead you

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where you want it to go. Life has death in it.

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And if you are going to accept life on life's

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terms, which is like a 12 -step concept of recovery,

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life on life's terms, then you don't get to pick

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and choose necessarily what's going to open your

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heart. You just try and stay open. So those images

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of death. had been coming to me about like wow

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just how our arms are open to life and then to

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the faults that we see in each other or the faults

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that are seen in us so I opened that article

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with you know being at the airport waiting for

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a friend of mine and I'm watching all these people

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hug and that is a truly Franciscan moment because

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I'm just in the moment like you normally think

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oh I'm at the airport I can't wait to just get

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my friend and we'll drive away but Francis always

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encourages just what is right in front of you.

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You don't need to wait. Just look. And so I just

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saw all these people, this kaleidoscope of people

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hugging. And I did start thinking about the leper

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and the idea of I just don't think waiting until

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somebody becomes the person you want them to

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be and then you're going to really love them.

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That is not who I want to be. So the article

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was due at the end of September. And I had most

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of it done. And then in early September, I lost

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somebody very close to me. My sister -in -law

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died tragically. And it's been a very hard season

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for me. Let's see. So I just finished another

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article. That'll be, I think, in May in Let Us

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Pray. I'll be talking about what that has been

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for me. So the article became even harder in

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a way. But ironically, I had already written

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about accepting death as part of life. And then

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I lost somebody so close to me. So my own writing

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actually supported me through some of that early

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grieving process of just keeping my heart wide

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open. The other thing that has been a lot to

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process in that death was that my sister -in

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-law was really, really had a completely open

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heart to Jesus. Like she was so open hearted

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to Jesus. So it's just been a lot to unpack with

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that. And the article itself in me acknowledging

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that I had avoided going to a certain place along

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the river because that was where I had associated

00:15:56.600 --> 00:16:02.110
it with death. you know, finding out about a

00:16:02.110 --> 00:16:04.269
student of mine who had overdosed and then two

00:16:04.269 --> 00:16:06.370
boys who had drowned in that spot. I just was

00:16:06.370 --> 00:16:07.870
like, oh, I'm just not going to go to that part

00:16:07.870 --> 00:16:11.610
of the river. Became a complete metaphor for

00:16:11.610 --> 00:16:16.809
me of you cannot just decide to not go somewhere

00:16:16.809 --> 00:16:20.049
in life because death is going to be there. Death

00:16:20.049 --> 00:16:23.710
is always going to be there. That's the river

00:16:23.710 --> 00:16:28.690
of life itself. And yet Francis teaches me. to

00:16:28.690 --> 00:16:31.509
still have an open heart and accept it. I don't

00:16:31.509 --> 00:16:35.529
have to be necessarily, I can be afraid, we will

00:16:35.529 --> 00:16:40.830
be afraid, but it allows me to let more light

00:16:40.830 --> 00:16:45.090
into the whole truth of death itself and facing

00:16:45.090 --> 00:16:49.629
death. So that article was very, I'm laughing

00:16:49.629 --> 00:16:54.070
because it was like just a really big challenge.

00:16:54.610 --> 00:16:59.580
And yet I ended it. With an image of a little

00:16:59.580 --> 00:17:02.840
boy. I went to a farm stand. It's a little boy.

00:17:03.139 --> 00:17:09.440
With his arms open. And I will. I will read that

00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:12.240
part. Just the very ending. That would be great.

00:17:12.380 --> 00:17:18.059
Thanks. So. This is lessons from a five -year

00:17:18.059 --> 00:17:22.079
-old. So I'm talking in this part. About Francis

00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:25.579
saying. Actually it was Murray Bodo. Talking

00:17:25.579 --> 00:17:27.910
about Francis saying. we still can have innocence.

00:17:28.029 --> 00:17:32.150
So Murray Bodo's quote is, the journey forward

00:17:32.150 --> 00:17:36.529
into God is a journey backward to an original

00:17:36.529 --> 00:17:39.710
innocence. We never fully recover, but we're

00:17:39.710 --> 00:17:43.009
a sort of semi -paradise happens when love turns

00:17:43.009 --> 00:17:47.829
into charity. And I love that quote about innocence

00:17:47.829 --> 00:17:50.670
and finding innocence again within us. It's like,

00:17:50.750 --> 00:17:54.279
I love his... We never go back, but there's a

00:17:54.279 --> 00:17:57.339
semi -paradise. Like, okay, we can still find

00:17:57.339 --> 00:18:01.799
it. So I tell the story of how I just went out

00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:03.960
for ice cream, and then we had this horrible

00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:07.359
storm come up. And then I learned later that

00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:12.359
it had been almost like a tornado. And so I'm

00:18:12.359 --> 00:18:16.759
describing being at the farm stand after the

00:18:16.759 --> 00:18:21.339
storm. The raindrops had been heavy, huge. everything

00:18:21.339 --> 00:18:24.019
now reflected with a layer of silver in the sun

00:18:24.019 --> 00:18:27.680
i finished my cone and sat on a scratchy bale

00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:31.200
of hay near a family the oldest brother a boy

00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:33.339
around five years old stepped out from under

00:18:33.339 --> 00:18:36.380
the dripping awning and spread his arms instinctively

00:18:36.380 --> 00:18:39.720
expressing the joy of slanted sun -rays after

00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:43.079
the storm had passed i burst out laughing at

00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:46.400
his spontaneous gesture in response he stretched

00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:48.779
his arms farther and dramatically lifted his

00:18:48.779 --> 00:18:52.990
face to the sky His innocence showed me everything

00:18:52.990 --> 00:18:57.269
I need as a follower of Francis. From centuries

00:18:57.269 --> 00:19:01.089
ago, this mystic pervades our present lives with

00:19:01.089 --> 00:19:03.990
the power to show us the depth of love that exists

00:19:03.990 --> 00:19:08.390
right here. It's in the open arms of the skinny

00:19:08.390 --> 00:19:11.529
kid making you laugh out loud at the farm stand.

00:19:13.710 --> 00:19:17.490
And can you show the cover of that magazine real

00:19:17.490 --> 00:19:21.339
quick for our viewers? Yeah. So, I mean, that's

00:19:21.339 --> 00:19:23.240
what I found so brilliant about your conclusion

00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:29.819
is that this kid is mirroring Francis's own acceptance

00:19:29.819 --> 00:19:35.140
of the here, the now. Yeah. Yes, exactly. And,

00:19:35.240 --> 00:19:38.420
you know, I struggled with ending the article

00:19:38.420 --> 00:19:40.759
with that image, but as a poet, that's really

00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:43.500
my base. Fundamentally, who I am as a writer

00:19:43.500 --> 00:19:45.720
is to always go for the image. And I just was

00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:49.009
like. just crossing paths with some innocent

00:19:49.009 --> 00:19:55.029
kid and also that he did the idea of him like

00:19:55.029 --> 00:19:57.910
going broader when a complete stranger is laughing

00:19:57.910 --> 00:20:00.089
at him it was it was the it was the encounter

00:20:00.089 --> 00:20:03.450
between us that was so beautiful so simple and

00:20:03.450 --> 00:20:05.809
again the franciscan way it's always about that

00:20:05.809 --> 00:20:07.529
encounter and having that positive encounter

00:20:07.529 --> 00:20:11.390
so um i struggled with that image but franciscan

00:20:11.390 --> 00:20:13.670
media has always been very supportive of my images

00:20:13.670 --> 00:20:16.950
and i just was like i'll just that's That's where

00:20:16.950 --> 00:20:19.490
it ends with it comes full circle back to the

00:20:19.490 --> 00:20:22.269
child. It always comes back to the hope, the

00:20:22.269 --> 00:20:26.269
innocence, the beauty, rebirth. So that's nothing

00:20:26.269 --> 00:20:34.549
new for us as Christians. Here is Susan Hines

00:20:34.549 --> 00:20:37.250
Brigger, executive editor for the St. Anthony

00:20:37.250 --> 00:20:40.670
Messenger, with the first reflection for this

00:20:40.670 --> 00:20:47.029
episode. I love the image that. Maureen has of

00:20:47.029 --> 00:20:52.490
opening our arms wide open to things. It's shown

00:20:52.490 --> 00:20:56.329
in the cover image of Francis lifting his arms

00:20:56.329 --> 00:21:00.730
up to the heavens on the cover of the magazine

00:21:00.730 --> 00:21:05.470
in which her issue or her article appears. It's

00:21:05.470 --> 00:21:08.650
in her opening with the people embracing as they

00:21:08.650 --> 00:21:12.380
come off the airplanes. And in the ending, when

00:21:12.380 --> 00:21:15.299
she talks about the little boy who opens his

00:21:15.299 --> 00:21:19.420
arms following the storm and then opens them

00:21:19.420 --> 00:21:24.500
even wider. And it was such a profound image

00:21:24.500 --> 00:21:27.819
to me. As a mom of four, I know what it's like

00:21:27.819 --> 00:21:31.779
to have those arms extended to me, to, you know,

00:21:31.779 --> 00:21:39.039
pick me up, they're saying, or embrace me. You

00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:42.119
know, just seeing them do the same thing, open

00:21:42.119 --> 00:21:46.380
their arms when they see something amazing. And

00:21:46.380 --> 00:21:50.259
I think it's an image that we all should remember

00:21:50.259 --> 00:21:55.160
that we learn things when we open ourselves up

00:21:55.160 --> 00:22:00.440
to both good and bad. We have to embrace them

00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:04.779
for what they are. And then we learn from that

00:22:04.779 --> 00:22:08.240
and we grow from that. And there is such great

00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:14.480
wonder in this world that we can take part in

00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:18.700
if we just allow ourselves. Sometimes we get

00:22:18.700 --> 00:22:22.779
so stuck in our day -to -day routines and ways

00:22:22.779 --> 00:22:27.619
of thinking that we don't step outside that and

00:22:27.619 --> 00:22:33.480
embrace new things. But sometimes great things

00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:38.960
can come from doing so. We can learn about other

00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:43.500
people. We can learn about ourselves through

00:22:43.500 --> 00:22:48.880
doing that. And what a great opportunity it is

00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:56.660
for us to grow both as ourselves personally and

00:22:56.660 --> 00:23:01.420
along with others to create a greater community.

00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:11.960
Yeah, well, the article, it really brings up

00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:14.359
a fundamental question for a lot of people on

00:23:14.359 --> 00:23:17.839
their spiritual journeys is, and maybe when it

00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:21.059
comes to these four categories, the backstory

00:23:21.059 --> 00:23:24.609
here is that you mentioned to me that Susan Hines

00:23:24.609 --> 00:23:28.329
Brigger, her latest editorial in the March issue,

00:23:28.470 --> 00:23:31.250
or maybe it was her Faith and Family column,

00:23:31.329 --> 00:23:34.710
but she talks about these four categories in

00:23:34.710 --> 00:23:36.990
the spiritual journey of listening to God, following

00:23:36.990 --> 00:23:40.289
God, rediscovering God, and healing, healing

00:23:40.289 --> 00:23:42.430
the world and healing our relationships with

00:23:42.430 --> 00:23:46.730
ourselves and others as well. And your article

00:23:46.730 --> 00:23:51.089
makes me think of what exactly does listening

00:23:51.849 --> 00:23:57.329
to god look like in a world filled with death

00:23:57.329 --> 00:24:01.809
because like i i think that that is that's a

00:24:01.809 --> 00:24:05.670
struggle that's a struggle for me it's like it's

00:24:05.670 --> 00:24:08.710
like can i really believe that there's beauty

00:24:08.710 --> 00:24:13.390
and goodness and love and you know that that's

00:24:13.390 --> 00:24:17.549
really flowing out of the very like core of the

00:24:17.549 --> 00:24:20.390
universe as bonaventure talks about that it that

00:24:20.390 --> 00:24:23.789
you know this fountain of love and goodness is

00:24:23.789 --> 00:24:27.569
ever flowing into my life and world when when

00:24:27.569 --> 00:24:31.130
like you said there are these confrontations

00:24:31.130 --> 00:24:34.750
with death in your life that just sometimes like

00:24:34.750 --> 00:24:37.089
you said about your sister -in -law i don't know

00:24:37.089 --> 00:24:41.420
the full background there but When it comes to

00:24:41.420 --> 00:24:45.819
something very traumatic or sudden, it's it's

00:24:45.819 --> 00:24:48.619
almost like like I felt like this about my mom

00:24:48.619 --> 00:24:50.759
when she passed away really suddenly at the age

00:24:50.759 --> 00:24:53.279
of 60. Like she she had a heart screening two

00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:56.079
weeks before and then they said she was good.

00:24:56.160 --> 00:24:58.519
And then she passes away in the middle of the

00:24:58.519 --> 00:25:01.819
night in her sleep. And it's this it's this bizarre

00:25:01.819 --> 00:25:08.039
like confrontation with. Like like for her, for

00:25:08.039 --> 00:25:13.599
example. it's like how can that happen that feels

00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:16.900
preventable that feel it almost feels like a

00:25:16.900 --> 00:25:20.240
glitch in the system you know um and i think

00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:25.880
a lot of trauma and um you know uh sudden sudden

00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:28.519
pain sudden death feels that way where it's like

00:25:28.519 --> 00:25:31.259
it almost feels like this glitch but then i think

00:25:31.259 --> 00:25:33.599
about everything that she represented which was

00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:37.789
love and goodness and giving of herself day after

00:25:37.789 --> 00:25:40.069
day to her children and to her church community.

00:25:40.490 --> 00:25:44.750
And then I'm reminded of divine goodness and

00:25:44.750 --> 00:25:48.470
love again, thinking of her. However, it's colliding

00:25:48.470 --> 00:25:53.430
with my own confusion about why this world operates

00:25:53.430 --> 00:25:56.589
this way, you know, where a perfectly healthy

00:25:56.589 --> 00:25:58.769
person can pass away in the middle of the night.

00:25:58.869 --> 00:26:00.609
Do you know what I'm saying? I know exactly.

00:26:00.849 --> 00:26:04.230
Yes. And that's a lot of people have gone through

00:26:04.230 --> 00:26:07.619
far worse than me. you know i mean you children

00:26:07.619 --> 00:26:11.900
passing away lord have mercy i mean um cancer

00:26:11.900 --> 00:26:15.359
diagnosis for you know a child or you know car

00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:18.140
accidents i mean they're just you know plane

00:26:18.140 --> 00:26:21.480
planes crashing and it is just unfathomable to

00:26:21.480 --> 00:26:27.130
think about the pain and suffering but then It

00:26:27.130 --> 00:26:29.609
does me no good to deny that love and beauty

00:26:29.609 --> 00:26:32.589
exists as well. So it's like, what does listening

00:26:32.589 --> 00:26:37.769
to God look like in the messiness of life that

00:26:37.769 --> 00:26:39.710
is filled with darkness? That's the question.

00:26:41.710 --> 00:26:44.210
It's so hard. I really appreciate you sharing

00:26:44.210 --> 00:26:46.430
on such a personal level, what your journey has

00:26:46.430 --> 00:26:51.529
been and like, you know, to lose your mom like

00:26:51.529 --> 00:26:55.089
that. It's, it's just the only way is to just.

00:26:55.640 --> 00:26:57.319
You know, you have to put one foot in front of

00:26:57.319 --> 00:26:59.539
the other through that journey, but it's very

00:26:59.539 --> 00:27:03.380
lonely. I think essentially grief is a very lonely

00:27:03.380 --> 00:27:09.799
and exhausting journey. And I appreciate you

00:27:09.799 --> 00:27:11.980
saying, okay, other people have had other things

00:27:11.980 --> 00:27:14.460
that might seem more stark or whatever, but you

00:27:14.460 --> 00:27:17.700
have every right to what your particular journey

00:27:17.700 --> 00:27:21.799
is as a person, as a man, as a father, as a husband.

00:27:22.579 --> 00:27:28.660
You know, it's... It's so hard. And I do think

00:27:28.660 --> 00:27:33.480
that in terms of the listening, that was, that

00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:38.119
is how I ended up being so in love with the Psalms

00:27:38.119 --> 00:27:41.980
back to my own particular journey with Francis.

00:27:42.059 --> 00:27:49.160
Like I, I absolutely still know like 15 years

00:27:49.160 --> 00:27:53.950
after that began. That I don't know if I would

00:27:53.950 --> 00:27:56.309
have made it through without the Psalms for exactly

00:27:56.309 --> 00:28:01.470
the reasons you are saying. Like, I just, everything's,

00:28:01.470 --> 00:28:07.069
the unfairness, the brokenness, the fear, all

00:28:07.069 --> 00:28:11.670
of that. I just, I don't see how I would have

00:28:11.670 --> 00:28:15.529
made it without reading prayers slash poems.

00:28:15.609 --> 00:28:20.920
The Psalms are poems to me. If I hadn't. heard

00:28:20.920 --> 00:28:25.799
that voice of lamenting i don't i don't i just

00:28:25.799 --> 00:28:27.539
don't see how i would have made it through and

00:28:27.539 --> 00:28:33.259
i'm so grateful for the psalms i still am i still

00:28:33.259 --> 00:28:36.380
can't even believe what i i do uphold they are

00:28:36.380 --> 00:28:38.900
perfect works of art i think those 150 i think

00:28:38.900 --> 00:28:40.880
that they are absolutely perfect work of art

00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:45.859
and but the lamenting is so important in terms

00:28:45.859 --> 00:28:50.000
of the listening so i think it's When we're in

00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:53.720
grief, trusting that it's being heard by God,

00:28:53.799 --> 00:28:58.880
is God hearing? Are, like the Psalms, are our

00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:01.940
tears being collected in a flask? Yes, I believe

00:29:01.940 --> 00:29:04.440
they are. And I think my flask is pretty darn

00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:08.160
big. Yours is, you know, it expands that flask.

00:29:08.559 --> 00:29:13.190
It's catching those tears. The idea of like the

00:29:13.190 --> 00:29:15.650
loneliness and the broken heartedness that we

00:29:15.650 --> 00:29:18.650
have, the Psalms are there to catch all of that.

00:29:19.210 --> 00:29:22.069
And what you're saying is exactly like so many

00:29:22.069 --> 00:29:24.569
of the Psalms, like I'm paraphrasing horribly,

00:29:24.670 --> 00:29:27.190
but it's like, hey, look, I'm hurting. I'm broken.

00:29:27.430 --> 00:29:30.529
What are you doing, God? I'm in so much pain.

00:29:31.109 --> 00:29:35.269
What's happening? But OK, I will believe in you.

00:29:35.369 --> 00:29:38.369
There's that pivot that happens that makes me.

00:29:39.500 --> 00:29:42.019
I identify with that, but I don't think you can

00:29:42.019 --> 00:29:45.839
get to that place of being open to God's grace

00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:49.119
unless you feel the feeling the lament has been

00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:52.640
heard, the listening that God is listening to

00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:56.640
you and has heard it, heard you crying. I don't

00:29:56.640 --> 00:30:00.980
because then in return, once that happens, you're

00:30:00.980 --> 00:30:03.740
willing to listen to God. One is willing to hear

00:30:03.740 --> 00:30:08.400
God. But I think that the lament is so. so fundamental

00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:12.039
to the human experience and jesus had it too

00:30:12.039 --> 00:30:14.480
jesus quoted from the psalms you know why have

00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:17.519
you forsaken me so it's it's going right to the

00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:21.599
source as far as i'm concerned but that listening

00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:24.059
and i think for those of us who have a connection

00:30:24.059 --> 00:30:28.400
to nature i try and have i've got this well living

00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:31.380
in new england you know in the winter time sometimes

00:30:31.380 --> 00:30:33.559
i just go out into the woods and i'm like i'm

00:30:33.559 --> 00:30:35.920
just gonna listen like is anybody around like

00:30:36.220 --> 00:30:38.180
I'll hear like one little woodpecker and I'm

00:30:38.180 --> 00:30:40.460
like, okay, it's one woodpecker. But what I've

00:30:40.460 --> 00:30:42.839
started to understand is the quiet to listen

00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:46.619
for the quiet, to listen for the peace is part

00:30:46.619 --> 00:30:51.400
of my practice. So, and then listening to scripture,

00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:55.900
my own journey had been going from really paying

00:30:55.900 --> 00:30:57.960
attention to the Psalms to really being brought

00:30:57.960 --> 00:31:00.839
right into the gospels. And I love them so much.

00:31:01.140 --> 00:31:06.779
It's just hearing them and. Why were the Psalms

00:31:06.779 --> 00:31:08.920
so important for you during that time in your

00:31:08.920 --> 00:31:12.039
life? I know a beautiful memoir flows from that,

00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:14.579
but that time in your life, why were the Psalms

00:31:14.579 --> 00:31:19.200
such an anchor for you? And by the way, you're

00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:21.640
saying something really profound here that I

00:31:21.640 --> 00:31:24.910
just wanted to kind of call out real quick. In

00:31:24.910 --> 00:31:27.690
listening to God in this world that is filled

00:31:27.690 --> 00:31:31.049
with, that feels fractured at times and feels

00:31:31.049 --> 00:31:33.230
like it has glitches at times and is completely,

00:31:33.450 --> 00:31:37.049
feels permeated with darkness at times. You're

00:31:37.049 --> 00:31:41.710
flipping it and you're not just saying that our

00:31:41.710 --> 00:31:44.309
job isn't to listen. You're not just saying that

00:31:44.309 --> 00:31:47.349
our job is to listen to God. You're saying, you're

00:31:47.349 --> 00:31:50.230
flipping it and saying, God is listening to us.

00:31:50.589 --> 00:31:54.819
And therefore... I mean, that is, I mean, the,

00:31:54.880 --> 00:31:57.400
the, the, the visual you gave from the Psalms

00:31:57.400 --> 00:32:00.619
is a stunning one that our, our tears are being

00:32:00.619 --> 00:32:03.940
collected in a flask. I mean that, that, so,

00:32:04.059 --> 00:32:10.200
so now all of a sudden, um, I don't even like

00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:12.319
the phrase all of a sudden because it's, the

00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:14.599
process is so messier than that. And it's not

00:32:14.599 --> 00:32:17.920
a light bulb moment at all, but, but I know at

00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:25.490
least for me. In my darkest days, whenever I

00:32:25.490 --> 00:32:33.309
did feel as if I was not alone and that God was

00:32:33.309 --> 00:32:37.410
meeting me where I was, as mysterious and baffling

00:32:37.410 --> 00:32:41.029
as that could seem, that God is listening to

00:32:41.029 --> 00:32:45.670
my anger and to my frustration and to my confusion

00:32:45.670 --> 00:32:48.910
and to my hurt and everything, and to my curse

00:32:48.910 --> 00:32:54.690
words. And God still dares to listen to me. Now

00:32:54.690 --> 00:33:02.869
I can trust that God that wants to listen, that

00:33:02.869 --> 00:33:07.950
doesn't turn God's back on the pain or even try

00:33:07.950 --> 00:33:11.190
to explain the pain away, but just enters more

00:33:11.190 --> 00:33:15.289
deeply into it. It still doesn't make anything

00:33:15.289 --> 00:33:19.390
make sense. However, in a weird, mysterious way

00:33:19.390 --> 00:33:23.789
for me, it was enough. The power of any type

00:33:23.789 --> 00:33:26.670
of lament and then getting to the joy, it will

00:33:26.670 --> 00:33:31.509
happen. It's a process. You go around. So when

00:33:31.509 --> 00:33:37.250
I first committed to a psalm practice, which

00:33:37.250 --> 00:33:39.309
was basically I was going to read a psalm a day,

00:33:39.430 --> 00:33:41.369
but it didn't matter what order it was. I would

00:33:41.369 --> 00:33:45.569
just randomly pick one. So when I turned 50,

00:33:46.569 --> 00:33:48.990
My life completely turned upside down, and I

00:33:48.990 --> 00:33:52.130
still don't really understand all of what happened.

00:33:53.230 --> 00:34:00.190
So within a two -year period, I was diagnosed

00:34:00.190 --> 00:34:05.230
with cancer and had several surgeries. And then

00:34:05.230 --> 00:34:11.030
I'd been married for 23, 24 years at the time.

00:34:11.050 --> 00:34:17.780
My marriage fell apart in a very, very... tumultuous

00:34:17.780 --> 00:34:20.460
way. Like all of a sudden that was just gone.

00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:26.739
So my family of four was gone. I had to have

00:34:26.739 --> 00:34:29.860
a new identity from being married to, I had this

00:34:29.860 --> 00:34:32.440
new word divorced, which was horrible to me.

00:34:33.059 --> 00:34:38.139
And I ended up moving out of our home. Like it

00:34:38.139 --> 00:34:40.360
wasn't sustainable that I could live in our home

00:34:40.360 --> 00:34:42.440
that we'd had for 18 years. So that was gone.

00:34:43.139 --> 00:34:48.179
And then And then I can't even, like, sometimes

00:34:48.179 --> 00:34:50.139
I hear this list and I'm like, oh, my God, Maureen,

00:34:50.219 --> 00:34:53.320
seriously? And then I fell. I had a horrible

00:34:53.320 --> 00:34:58.500
fall in my own driveway on my 23rd wedding anniversary

00:34:58.500 --> 00:35:01.059
when my husband and I first separated. And I

00:35:01.059 --> 00:35:06.119
completely lost use of my left wrist. I shattered

00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:09.019
my wrist and had to have two surgeries. It was

00:35:09.019 --> 00:35:13.500
insane. And I was so, I was literally broken.

00:35:14.560 --> 00:35:18.179
And I just will insert a little dark humor. Anything

00:35:18.179 --> 00:35:21.079
in the Psalms about bones, broken bones being

00:35:21.079 --> 00:35:25.260
healed, I totally loved because I was literally

00:35:25.260 --> 00:35:30.519
broken. I was scared. I was beyond. I was just

00:35:30.519 --> 00:35:36.239
so, so broken on every level. And something just

00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:39.500
came to me where I thought, I am going to read

00:35:39.500 --> 00:35:42.369
a Psalm a day. I'm going to start. every day

00:35:42.369 --> 00:35:45.650
reading a psalm. I have no idea necessarily what

00:35:45.650 --> 00:35:48.869
brought me to that, why I was obviously guided.

00:35:49.309 --> 00:35:52.789
But the story that I tell in What Was Lost is

00:35:52.789 --> 00:35:57.050
that I thought I would pray my marriage back

00:35:57.050 --> 00:35:59.429
into shape. I would pray really, really, really

00:35:59.429 --> 00:36:04.489
hard. And I would say, you know, love is kind,

00:36:04.630 --> 00:36:06.829
love is patient, and all of that. I would say

00:36:06.829 --> 00:36:09.710
our wedding vows every day. And that would make

00:36:09.710 --> 00:36:12.460
it... magically happen I would magically have

00:36:12.460 --> 00:36:15.800
my marriage come back and that is not what happened

00:36:15.800 --> 00:36:19.980
my Bible fell open one day it was an it was my

00:36:19.980 --> 00:36:22.960
old old Bible was a broken spine and it fell

00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:25.860
open to Psalm 23 and I read it and it was like

00:36:25.860 --> 00:36:29.400
I I need a new path I need I need this new path

00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:33.760
and so that spiritual practice of the Psalms

00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:39.190
um just oh my gosh it just so got me through

00:36:39.190 --> 00:36:45.789
that entire time and you're sharing of when you

00:36:45.789 --> 00:36:49.989
kind of like like cursing and getting angry in

00:36:49.989 --> 00:36:54.809
what was lost i have a uh a section where i completely

00:36:54.809 --> 00:36:59.349
lost it on god one day i was driving on a highway

00:36:59.349 --> 00:37:03.570
and i couldn't see clearly like my windshield

00:37:03.570 --> 00:37:06.780
wiper fluid stopped working And I'm like hurtling

00:37:06.780 --> 00:37:10.239
down this highway. Trucks are going by me. I

00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:13.000
just tell this whole story of, oh my gosh, like

00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:16.900
I am going to lose my mind. And I did lose my

00:37:16.900 --> 00:37:21.179
mind. I ended up just screaming at God, like,

00:37:21.239 --> 00:37:23.539
what do you want from me? Like, you've taken

00:37:23.539 --> 00:37:27.139
everything from me. It was the weekend before

00:37:27.139 --> 00:37:31.139
my divorce and my house being sold within 48

00:37:31.139 --> 00:37:38.800
hours. I was just screaming at God. And I just

00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:44.199
like, when I was done, the car was so quiet and

00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:50.760
my body was so quiet. And then like the miracle

00:37:50.760 --> 00:37:54.199
could come once I got that out. And once I knew

00:37:54.199 --> 00:37:56.400
God was listening to this, you have got to be

00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:58.400
kidding me. You have taken everything from me.

00:37:59.059 --> 00:38:04.909
And so. The peace that came to me after that,

00:38:04.969 --> 00:38:10.309
after I got that out, and it actually strengthened

00:38:10.309 --> 00:38:15.269
my relationship with God because nothing, it

00:38:15.269 --> 00:38:22.010
was as if I just let God have it. And I blew

00:38:22.010 --> 00:38:25.889
out my voice, you know, it was that bad. And

00:38:25.889 --> 00:38:31.070
then. I was able to accept everything and I just

00:38:31.070 --> 00:38:35.170
kind of quietly kept driving. It sounds so crazy,

00:38:35.269 --> 00:38:39.590
but I also, I also, the other funny part about

00:38:39.590 --> 00:38:44.030
that was that I, before I lost it, I stopped

00:38:44.030 --> 00:38:48.030
at a gas station to get tapped. You know, I needed

00:38:48.030 --> 00:38:49.769
wiper fluid. I didn't know what was happening.

00:38:50.230 --> 00:38:53.690
And I swear, this is the truth. The kid who sold

00:38:53.690 --> 00:38:57.059
me the wiper fluid. was wearing an Our Lady of

00:38:57.059 --> 00:39:01.159
Guadalupe t -shirt. Like he had this huge Our

00:39:01.159 --> 00:39:07.719
Lady of Guadalupe. And I just, you know, I was

00:39:07.719 --> 00:39:10.360
protected. I realized, you know, you're on your

00:39:10.360 --> 00:39:14.119
journey. But I think in terms of listening and

00:39:14.119 --> 00:39:17.920
really getting to that fundamental element of

00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:25.389
grief, that rock level, just grief. I have never

00:39:25.389 --> 00:39:27.929
had that happen since then. I've had anger and

00:39:27.929 --> 00:39:30.269
I've had disappointment, but that was as low

00:39:30.269 --> 00:39:34.989
as it got, I would say. And what a gift that

00:39:34.989 --> 00:39:38.210
was. I just was able to really move on to more

00:39:38.210 --> 00:39:44.090
acceptance, healing, openness. And within, so

00:39:44.090 --> 00:39:46.090
it must've been like, maybe it's January, February,

00:39:46.130 --> 00:39:50.969
March. Within about 12 weeks after that is when

00:39:50.969 --> 00:39:55.389
I found myself in Italy. outside of Cortona at

00:39:55.389 --> 00:40:00.809
La Cella where I had never felt such peace. I

00:40:00.809 --> 00:40:02.949
went to the place where Francis lived for two

00:40:02.949 --> 00:40:07.570
years and I had a spiritual awakening of, I had

00:40:07.570 --> 00:40:10.489
never felt that much after being where he had

00:40:10.489 --> 00:40:13.789
been. And so I guess maybe what I'm saying is

00:40:13.789 --> 00:40:18.469
that, you know, these ideas of, of say healing,

00:40:18.550 --> 00:40:23.659
listening, feeling heard. absolutely leads to

00:40:23.659 --> 00:40:26.079
healing. It's not a straight path. It's not even

00:40:26.079 --> 00:40:29.179
a zigzaggy path. It is back to our spiral. It

00:40:29.179 --> 00:40:33.480
is a spiral. But when I think about it now, that

00:40:33.480 --> 00:40:37.920
within weeks after really expressing that grief,

00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:42.199
that such grief and anger and disappointment,

00:40:42.340 --> 00:40:46.179
all of a sudden it hollowed me out to being able

00:40:46.179 --> 00:40:48.760
to feel that sense of peace, but also the gift

00:40:48.760 --> 00:40:51.750
of being where Francis had walked. That was the

00:40:51.750 --> 00:40:54.710
first time I ever, you know, I saw his little

00:40:54.710 --> 00:41:00.590
room, his pillow, which was, you know, a log.

00:41:00.929 --> 00:41:03.769
It was a log, you know, stuff like that. But

00:41:03.769 --> 00:41:08.630
being where he was changed me. And that set me

00:41:08.630 --> 00:41:12.809
on a whole new path of Franciscan faith because

00:41:12.809 --> 00:41:15.929
I could not deny that sense of peace. I never

00:41:15.929 --> 00:41:25.900
even knew it existed before. Again, here is Susan

00:41:25.900 --> 00:41:29.280
Hines Brigger with the second reflection for

00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:34.360
this episode. The concept of listening to God

00:41:34.360 --> 00:41:39.199
is one that I really take seriously, and I had

00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:42.840
to learn it the hard way. 22 years ago, I was

00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:46.119
diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. Following

00:41:46.119 --> 00:41:50.780
my diagnosis, needless to say, God and I had

00:41:50.780 --> 00:41:55.550
some tough conversations. You know, why me? Why

00:41:55.550 --> 00:41:59.570
now? Why this? I had two young children at the

00:41:59.570 --> 00:42:04.449
time. Immediately, you know, you think of the

00:42:04.449 --> 00:42:08.610
worst case scenarios. And so I would call out

00:42:08.610 --> 00:42:13.070
to God in search of answers. And I felt like

00:42:13.070 --> 00:42:16.829
I wasn't getting any answers from him. I felt

00:42:16.829 --> 00:42:23.579
abandoned and lost. Suddenly something started

00:42:23.579 --> 00:42:29.000
to happen. I would get calls from people who

00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:34.599
said, my sister or sister -in -law or brother

00:42:34.599 --> 00:42:38.519
has been diagnosed with MS. Would you be willing

00:42:38.519 --> 00:42:44.199
to talk with them or just give them some reassuring

00:42:44.199 --> 00:42:47.199
words or to let them know that there's someone

00:42:47.199 --> 00:42:50.480
else out there that they could? reach out to

00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:53.239
if they needed to. And this happened more and

00:42:53.239 --> 00:42:58.039
more to me over time and over the years. And

00:42:58.039 --> 00:43:01.480
I kind of came to the conclusion that this was

00:43:01.480 --> 00:43:05.159
the Lord's way of putting me, he put me on this

00:43:05.159 --> 00:43:10.239
path so that I was able to help others and use

00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:16.079
my suffering to alleviate somehow the suffering

00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:20.989
of others by walking with them. And it was that

00:43:20.989 --> 00:43:26.570
realization that God really had listened to me.

00:43:26.690 --> 00:43:32.150
He had heard my cries. And though he didn't answer

00:43:32.150 --> 00:43:34.510
them the way that I wanted them to be answered,

00:43:34.789 --> 00:43:39.929
he had heard me. Since then, we've had many conversations.

00:43:40.510 --> 00:43:46.610
A lot of times, I just listen. Knowing that whatever

00:43:46.610 --> 00:43:50.070
I need to hear, I will hear in time. And so it's

00:43:50.070 --> 00:43:55.349
become almost like a friendship where I can say

00:43:55.349 --> 00:43:59.010
anything to him that I need. I can be angry at

00:43:59.010 --> 00:44:05.170
him. I can, you know, vent to him, just be sad

00:44:05.170 --> 00:44:08.849
with him. And I know that he truly hears me.

00:44:11.320 --> 00:44:14.159
He will be there for me and it may not be in

00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:17.119
the way that I want him to be and it may not

00:44:17.119 --> 00:44:22.079
be in the timing that I want, but he will be

00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:26.679
there and he will put me in the right place and

00:44:26.679 --> 00:44:30.340
give me the right path to walk. And that is very

00:44:30.340 --> 00:44:34.619
comforting to me that I have someone who's got

00:44:34.619 --> 00:44:43.469
my back all the time. How did that healing unfold

00:44:43.469 --> 00:44:47.250
for you? And I know that it, like we talked about,

00:44:47.349 --> 00:44:49.250
I know it's not like a one -time thing, like

00:44:49.250 --> 00:44:53.469
healing is, it's ongoing, the spiral you talked

00:44:53.469 --> 00:44:56.550
about. I mean, you're always going deeper and

00:44:56.550 --> 00:44:59.070
deeper into your own continued conversion and

00:44:59.070 --> 00:45:02.050
therefore your healing. It is true for seekers,

00:45:02.130 --> 00:45:05.710
I think, that when we are the most broken and

00:45:05.710 --> 00:45:08.849
we're willing to put work into it, deep healing

00:45:08.849 --> 00:45:13.429
can... absolutely happen because you're so vulnerable

00:45:13.429 --> 00:45:16.610
and so raw if you're willing to put in a little

00:45:16.610 --> 00:45:19.670
bit of effort God will meet us way more than

00:45:19.670 --> 00:45:23.190
halfway I really believe that I did wake up on

00:45:23.190 --> 00:45:28.530
my 50th birthday with my surgeon saying Maureen

00:45:28.530 --> 00:45:33.050
I think I got all the cancer out and so I said

00:45:33.050 --> 00:45:36.889
to him how can I ever repay you for saving my

00:45:36.889 --> 00:45:41.849
life and he said live a good life you can repay

00:45:41.849 --> 00:45:46.849
me by living a good life and there's a lot to

00:45:46.849 --> 00:45:51.650
unpack in that but after my first time crossing

00:45:51.650 --> 00:45:54.630
paths with Francis that is what came to me I

00:45:54.630 --> 00:45:57.030
was like wait a minute maybe I maybe I'm doing

00:45:57.030 --> 00:46:01.389
that maybe after the cancer and brokenness and

00:46:01.389 --> 00:46:04.230
the divorce and the loss maybe I am living a

00:46:04.230 --> 00:46:07.429
good life by just following in these footsteps

00:46:07.429 --> 00:46:12.469
of Christ And at that point, I don't know when

00:46:12.469 --> 00:46:15.409
this happened, but it was probably Psalm 139

00:46:15.409 --> 00:46:19.610
about God's omniscience. I started to really

00:46:19.610 --> 00:46:24.630
see that God was searching for me, that I started

00:46:24.630 --> 00:46:27.409
to feel like I was the lost one that was being

00:46:27.409 --> 00:46:31.690
found. And that's so easy to say now. It sounds

00:46:31.690 --> 00:46:35.750
so cliche, whatever. But I started to understand

00:46:35.750 --> 00:46:41.539
that God had never left me. like i do believe

00:46:41.539 --> 00:46:44.320
that god suffers with us and struggles with us

00:46:44.320 --> 00:46:48.179
and i started to feel as if i had always been

00:46:48.179 --> 00:46:51.559
just because bad things had happened didn't mean

00:46:51.559 --> 00:46:55.559
that god had left me and that was so it sounds

00:46:55.559 --> 00:46:57.980
so simple but that was a game changer and i don't

00:46:57.980 --> 00:47:02.679
know at what point that really became um clear

00:47:02.679 --> 00:47:06.420
just this idea of god how god's love finds me

00:47:07.530 --> 00:47:12.070
all the time and so i do absolutely feel at this

00:47:12.070 --> 00:47:15.190
point that nothing can i know that it's true

00:47:15.190 --> 00:47:17.449
i believe that nothing can separate me from the

00:47:17.449 --> 00:47:22.190
love of christ i i that is everything to me at

00:47:22.190 --> 00:47:25.789
this point yeah well you're you're getting into

00:47:25.789 --> 00:47:27.849
something else that's really profound as well

00:47:27.849 --> 00:47:30.590
i love how you keep flipping it you know like

00:47:30.590 --> 00:47:32.989
we talked about It's not just about listening

00:47:32.989 --> 00:47:35.230
to God. It's about daring to believe that God's

00:47:35.230 --> 00:47:38.210
listening to you. And then you mentioned the

00:47:38.210 --> 00:47:40.789
shepherd going out and finding the one lost sheep.

00:47:40.969 --> 00:47:44.010
So now it's not just about you following the

00:47:44.010 --> 00:47:46.650
shepherd, like the shepherd's following and looking

00:47:46.650 --> 00:47:50.650
for you. And I think there's something really

00:47:50.650 --> 00:47:52.969
important there when it comes to rediscovering

00:47:52.969 --> 00:47:58.880
God, because we tend to think that. god or whatever

00:47:58.880 --> 00:48:03.119
word you want to use to name the unexplainable

00:48:03.119 --> 00:48:07.599
force like undergirding life the universe the

00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:10.159
world creation whatever word you want to use

00:48:10.159 --> 00:48:13.260
there i mean we tend to think that we're we're

00:48:13.260 --> 00:48:15.440
subjects we're peasants who have to go to the

00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:19.579
the king on the throne and usually the king is

00:48:19.579 --> 00:48:23.900
shaking his finger at us and is frustrated with

00:48:23.900 --> 00:48:27.590
us about what we're like for me it was like it

00:48:27.590 --> 00:48:30.230
seems like God's either mad at me for something

00:48:30.230 --> 00:48:35.469
I'm doing or something I'm not doing. Yeah. Like

00:48:35.469 --> 00:48:38.329
the perfectionist in me would just be like, there's

00:48:38.329 --> 00:48:40.650
always something I'm doing that God's mad at

00:48:40.650 --> 00:48:42.590
or something I'm not doing that God's mad at.

00:48:42.650 --> 00:48:44.409
And it was just like this performance, you know,

00:48:44.409 --> 00:48:48.030
kind of treadmill. I remember reading Henry Nowen's

00:48:48.030 --> 00:48:52.630
Life of the Beloved and he flips things too,

00:48:52.750 --> 00:48:58.380
where it's like, yeah. when god says this is

00:48:58.380 --> 00:49:02.519
my beloved son on you my favor rests god's saying

00:49:02.519 --> 00:49:06.539
that about you as well and i bring that up because

00:49:06.539 --> 00:49:08.260
it makes me think of what you said about the

00:49:08.260 --> 00:49:11.800
shepherd it's like yeah eventually maybe the

00:49:11.800 --> 00:49:15.500
sheep does follow the shepherd again but what

00:49:15.500 --> 00:49:18.719
a like earth -shattering like thought to think

00:49:18.719 --> 00:49:22.000
about no the shepherd's also following you and

00:49:22.440 --> 00:49:26.000
That's a different metaphor of God to discover.

00:49:26.340 --> 00:49:30.460
I totally love that because I absolutely get

00:49:30.460 --> 00:49:32.880
so much comfort out of there's nothing that I've

00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:35.199
been through that he wouldn't understand, like

00:49:35.199 --> 00:49:38.480
any sense of betrayal or loss. And I feel that

00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:41.019
way about Mary, too, like what she had to witness

00:49:41.019 --> 00:49:43.260
as a parent. She had to watch her child suffer

00:49:43.260 --> 00:49:49.789
and was completely powerless over that. you know

00:49:49.789 --> 00:49:51.510
also i just want to say briefly in terms of mary

00:49:51.510 --> 00:49:54.210
one thing that my the recent trip to assisi that

00:49:54.210 --> 00:49:57.570
i was so so many things captivated me but you

00:49:57.570 --> 00:49:59.869
know the most famous picture of of saint francis

00:49:59.869 --> 00:50:03.070
like the i guess it's shimabui you say like the

00:50:03.070 --> 00:50:05.070
most famous portrait of francis that we all have

00:50:05.070 --> 00:50:08.849
i have it over there um it's actually they they

00:50:08.849 --> 00:50:12.389
crop it so it's just francis's face but in fact

00:50:12.389 --> 00:50:16.630
he's actually right next to mary and angels And

00:50:16.630 --> 00:50:20.150
I was so struck by that, that, wow, like here,

00:50:20.230 --> 00:50:23.809
here, Francis is like never far from Mary. Like

00:50:23.809 --> 00:50:27.070
Mary's always a part of, of the, of the narrative.

00:50:27.130 --> 00:50:31.769
And it does have to do with trusting that, that

00:50:31.769 --> 00:50:34.210
they, that they know what suffering really is

00:50:34.210 --> 00:50:38.809
like hardcore powerlessness over, you know, another,

00:50:38.829 --> 00:50:41.289
your own or somebody else's addiction. Or like

00:50:41.289 --> 00:50:43.349
I've written lately about my mom's Alzheimer's

00:50:43.349 --> 00:50:45.650
has been a big theme, like the pain of that.

00:50:46.360 --> 00:50:49.840
How do I bring God? How does God bring me into

00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:52.260
that situation? And what am I learning from it?

00:50:52.440 --> 00:50:55.960
And just so many things, the loss of my sister

00:50:55.960 --> 00:50:57.679
-in -law, like processing these different things

00:50:57.679 --> 00:50:59.699
and some of the miracles that came out of that.

00:51:00.219 --> 00:51:04.780
But it really is a faith of the human and the

00:51:04.780 --> 00:51:08.960
divine. And I just can't imagine not having those

00:51:08.960 --> 00:51:13.559
faces to turn to. That's what I get out of so

00:51:13.559 --> 00:51:17.389
much of. My faith is just I need I need those

00:51:17.389 --> 00:51:21.250
faces. I need people there. And it's a family

00:51:21.250 --> 00:51:24.469
to me at this point. But the way you're talking

00:51:24.469 --> 00:51:27.070
about, like the lamenting and and the grief you

00:51:27.070 --> 00:51:29.130
have since your mom dying, it is a true dark

00:51:29.130 --> 00:51:32.010
night of the soul. It really literally a dark

00:51:32.010 --> 00:51:35.989
night of the soul of where are you? It's light

00:51:35.989 --> 00:51:41.340
out. Is the dawn coming? It's it's. It's very,

00:51:41.440 --> 00:51:44.860
very hard and very, that's profound to have that

00:51:44.860 --> 00:51:48.679
type of grief. And you can't unring the bell,

00:51:48.780 --> 00:51:52.840
like you can only go forward. But I do feel that

00:51:52.840 --> 00:51:57.260
God is absolutely with us in all of that. And

00:51:57.260 --> 00:52:00.340
I hear what you're saying about that striving,

00:52:00.539 --> 00:52:02.619
you know, oh, if I do this, I'll be closer to

00:52:02.619 --> 00:52:04.760
God. If I do that, I've been really just trying

00:52:04.760 --> 00:52:07.659
to practice. I don't need to really do anything,

00:52:07.820 --> 00:52:11.019
you know, like. My spiritual director, who was

00:52:11.019 --> 00:52:14.480
constantly five steps ahead of me, as it should

00:52:14.480 --> 00:52:18.480
be, I guess, said that when she stopped actually

00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:21.900
thinking of herself as a spiritual seeker, she

00:52:21.900 --> 00:52:26.300
felt great. I mean, this is a woman who's been,

00:52:26.320 --> 00:52:28.480
you know, she's been on the spiritual path so

00:52:28.480 --> 00:52:32.219
deeply for so long. And I was like, what do you

00:52:32.219 --> 00:52:34.199
mean? Like, you're not thinking of yourself as

00:52:34.199 --> 00:52:35.980
a spiritual seeker anymore. Isn't that who you

00:52:35.980 --> 00:52:40.420
are? She was like, no, I'm just Alice. I'm not

00:52:40.420 --> 00:52:47.280
there yet. Yeah. No, I mean, yeah, that's, yeah.

00:52:47.340 --> 00:52:50.400
Even seeker is all wrapped up and you're doing

00:52:50.400 --> 00:52:53.659
something, you know, you're the one you're seeking,

00:52:53.760 --> 00:52:57.039
but then going back to a theme that is, you know,

00:52:57.039 --> 00:52:59.039
kind of come to the surface several times throughout

00:52:59.039 --> 00:53:02.820
this conversation. It's like, that can be true,

00:53:02.920 --> 00:53:06.119
but also God's seeking you. Yes. I, and yes,

00:53:06.179 --> 00:53:10.170
that has been like. I, I think out of all the

00:53:10.170 --> 00:53:13.250
themes, the idea of like the following idea.

00:53:13.449 --> 00:53:15.829
Okay. So like I follow God, but God follows me

00:53:15.829 --> 00:53:18.769
or God is with, I mean, I believe God is completely

00:53:18.769 --> 00:53:25.690
within, but that has been, um, I, I love that.

00:53:25.730 --> 00:53:27.969
That's been my latest sort of challenge, I think,

00:53:27.989 --> 00:53:31.070
to stop. And sometimes what happens is when I

00:53:31.070 --> 00:53:33.269
write for pause and pray, I, you know, we write

00:53:33.269 --> 00:53:36.610
the prayers that we write and then. They come

00:53:36.610 --> 00:53:38.690
up, you write these prayers and then you don't

00:53:38.690 --> 00:53:40.269
see them for a while. And then they actually

00:53:40.269 --> 00:53:43.010
come up on the website. And I'm like, wow, I'm

00:53:43.010 --> 00:53:45.530
helping myself because I need to take my own

00:53:45.530 --> 00:53:48.389
advice with this particular prayer. And I wrote

00:53:48.389 --> 00:53:51.309
one about the striving. Like we don't need to

00:53:51.309 --> 00:53:55.750
be trying so hard. Yes, it's great to say a rosary.

00:53:55.769 --> 00:53:57.809
It's great to light a candle. It's all these

00:53:57.809 --> 00:54:01.230
things are wonderful. But fundamentally, I could

00:54:01.230 --> 00:54:04.690
sit right here for the next 10 hours and. God

00:54:04.690 --> 00:54:09.070
is still here. I don't need to be proving anything.

00:54:09.590 --> 00:54:12.469
I think the striving unto itself is somewhat

00:54:12.469 --> 00:54:19.289
suggesting that we're not together. That's a

00:54:19.289 --> 00:54:21.369
great way to put it. Could you go a little deeper

00:54:21.369 --> 00:54:24.309
into that? Yeah, that is. Yeah, so, yeah, it's

00:54:24.309 --> 00:54:26.989
basically saying, yeah, like, it's like, okay.

00:54:29.369 --> 00:54:31.789
it's a little bit too transactional maybe to

00:54:31.789 --> 00:54:35.190
constantly think of this striving if i believe

00:54:35.190 --> 00:54:38.289
that i'm loved deeply and and cherish which i

00:54:38.289 --> 00:54:42.150
absolutely believe that from god but yet i'm

00:54:42.150 --> 00:54:45.230
also saying i have to do these particular things

00:54:45.230 --> 00:54:48.929
to get closer they're they're kind of at odds

00:54:48.929 --> 00:54:52.829
with each other really yeah yeah i i think about

00:54:52.829 --> 00:54:57.719
my daughter and son And particularly my almost

00:54:57.719 --> 00:55:00.860
three -year -old son because, I mean, he's a

00:55:00.860 --> 00:55:05.820
toddler. I mean, every day it's like, dude, do

00:55:05.820 --> 00:55:10.699
you listen to me? But he's just having fun. Once

00:55:10.699 --> 00:55:12.519
he's curious about it, he's going to do it no

00:55:12.519 --> 00:55:15.400
matter how many times I tell him not to. But

00:55:15.400 --> 00:55:20.059
I've thought about this as it pertains to spirituality.

00:55:20.119 --> 00:55:23.619
It's like never in my wildest dreams would I

00:55:23.619 --> 00:55:28.010
wake up. every single morning and think that

00:55:28.010 --> 00:55:32.510
my son has to meet a certain criteria or listen

00:55:32.510 --> 00:55:35.809
to me or do a certain, do all these things correctly.

00:55:35.929 --> 00:55:38.550
Like in order for me to love him, like that,

00:55:38.570 --> 00:55:41.869
that thought is just so absurd. And yet I used

00:55:41.869 --> 00:55:44.429
to think that all the time about God is that,

00:55:44.469 --> 00:55:47.710
all right, it's a new day. I need to prove it's

00:55:47.710 --> 00:55:49.949
the proving. That's a great word that you used.

00:55:49.989 --> 00:55:53.409
Right. And, and then to go deeper with that,

00:55:53.449 --> 00:55:55.699
it's like, how much of that is all tied up in

00:55:55.699 --> 00:55:59.920
the ego too. Putting myself in control rather

00:55:59.920 --> 00:56:04.059
than humbly accepting God's love for me. You

00:56:04.059 --> 00:56:08.139
know, frankly, it's easier to do the whole striving

00:56:08.139 --> 00:56:11.260
thing. It's more torturous. Like it's more torturous,

00:56:11.260 --> 00:56:14.000
but I say easier because it's more natural to

00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:17.119
me. You know, like I, yeah, I can check these

00:56:17.119 --> 00:56:19.920
things off. You know, like I'm good at that.

00:56:20.639 --> 00:56:23.340
And I'm good at beating myself up, too, you know,

00:56:23.340 --> 00:56:26.780
in the name of something holy. I'm good at that.

00:56:26.860 --> 00:56:30.820
So it's like you can kind of root your spirituality

00:56:30.820 --> 00:56:35.139
in your own performance driven kind of egoic

00:56:35.139 --> 00:56:37.800
tendencies. In Gather the Fragments, I share

00:56:37.800 --> 00:56:42.619
how one night I ended up in the Basilica of St.

00:56:42.800 --> 00:56:44.960
Francis, which is, you know, I think one of the

00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:47.880
whole I mean. we agree we're preaching to the

00:56:47.880 --> 00:56:49.519
choir here I think we all agree it's like one

00:56:49.519 --> 00:56:52.679
of the most holy spots in the world but so I

00:56:52.679 --> 00:56:56.639
was in there I went to it all the time but I

00:56:56.639 --> 00:56:59.460
ended up one night I ended up in there by myself

00:56:59.460 --> 00:57:02.960
I was so there I was in one of the most beautiful

00:57:02.960 --> 00:57:05.699
churches and they half the lights were turned

00:57:05.699 --> 00:57:07.460
off because they were starting to shut it down

00:57:07.460 --> 00:57:11.039
and I thought I've been so afraid of being alone

00:57:11.039 --> 00:57:15.920
I have felt so alone and yet to use your language

00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:17.639
which i really appreciate it just got turned

00:57:17.639 --> 00:57:19.860
upside down i was like wait a minute right now

00:57:19.860 --> 00:57:23.300
i'm alone in one of the holiest places and it

00:57:23.300 --> 00:57:26.659
and the entire cathedral felt full of something

00:57:26.659 --> 00:57:30.159
what it was i don't know spirit whatever you

00:57:30.159 --> 00:57:34.639
want to call it but i wasn't lamenting that i

00:57:34.639 --> 00:57:37.380
was all alone i was in the most beautiful spot

00:57:37.380 --> 00:57:39.519
on the most beautiful frescoes you're ever gonna

00:57:39.519 --> 00:57:42.269
see And there was like, I describe in the book,

00:57:42.329 --> 00:57:44.809
there was just this sweetness to it. It was like,

00:57:44.849 --> 00:57:49.010
oh, I've run and run and I've railed and railed

00:57:49.010 --> 00:57:51.210
and lamented and lamented about being alone.

00:57:51.630 --> 00:57:58.210
But here I am and I'm okay. And I'm in one of

00:57:58.210 --> 00:58:00.230
the most beautiful spots and I get to enjoy it

00:58:00.230 --> 00:58:04.650
by myself. And it was really holy and very, just

00:58:04.650 --> 00:58:09.309
a very transforming situation to all of a sudden,

00:58:09.739 --> 00:58:12.659
feel like god was just filling this enormous

00:58:12.659 --> 00:58:15.340
space and i was in it i was in the center of

00:58:15.340 --> 00:58:18.940
it yeah again just changed everything for me

00:58:18.940 --> 00:58:21.559
we're we're good we're together you you got me

00:58:21.559 --> 00:58:24.639
you like you've got my back it's basically what

00:58:24.639 --> 00:58:27.820
what that moment was about i just oh it was so

00:58:27.820 --> 00:58:31.440
great well yeah i mean it it's a really beautiful

00:58:31.440 --> 00:58:34.840
visual you know because i mean i mentioned this

00:58:34.840 --> 00:58:38.019
in a In our interview with Susan St. Singh as

00:58:38.019 --> 00:58:39.639
well, but like one of my favorite philosophers,

00:58:39.860 --> 00:58:42.500
he does a play on words with you can't spell

00:58:42.500 --> 00:58:49.260
all one without alone. And the way I interpret

00:58:49.260 --> 00:58:51.699
that, at least, is that there's something very

00:58:51.699 --> 00:58:55.780
terrifying about entering into your own aloneness

00:58:55.780 --> 00:58:58.960
because there are all these things and that you

00:58:58.960 --> 00:59:04.530
have to confront, you know. Absolutely. And all

00:59:04.530 --> 00:59:07.150
these things that you were clinging to, dreams,

00:59:07.429 --> 00:59:09.610
ambitions, you know, things that didn't go my

00:59:09.610 --> 00:59:12.110
way that, you know, like my life not looking

00:59:12.110 --> 00:59:13.929
the way I thought it would look like there's.

00:59:14.389 --> 00:59:18.929
And yet in that disorienting aloneness, sometimes

00:59:18.929 --> 00:59:22.369
there isn't beauty flooding the place like you're

00:59:22.369 --> 00:59:25.070
talking about. Other times there is because you

00:59:25.070 --> 00:59:27.889
do the hard work to empty yourself and get to

00:59:27.889 --> 00:59:32.900
that place. But then, yeah, I mean, it. I think

00:59:32.900 --> 00:59:34.880
what you're saying is so important when it comes

00:59:34.880 --> 00:59:40.039
to healing because to be alone with yourself,

00:59:40.199 --> 00:59:44.599
to be alone with God, detached from all these

00:59:44.599 --> 00:59:48.079
things I'm using to convince myself of my own

00:59:48.079 --> 00:59:51.719
wholeness and completeness, detached from those

00:59:51.719 --> 00:59:57.179
things, there's such a humble openness in that.

00:59:58.280 --> 01:00:00.639
But I don't recommend it for everyone. I do recommend

01:00:00.639 --> 01:00:06.480
it for everyone. But it is be ready for the dizzying,

01:00:06.480 --> 01:00:10.039
the dizzying experience that that can be, you

01:00:10.039 --> 01:00:15.199
know. Yes, it's so true. And I've recently had

01:00:15.199 --> 01:00:17.340
a very healing experience that I'm not ready

01:00:17.340 --> 01:00:19.860
to write about. I'm not ready to talk about when

01:00:19.860 --> 01:00:23.159
the time comes. But in terms of some of that

01:00:23.159 --> 01:00:26.190
earlier brokenness in my marriage. and how all

01:00:26.190 --> 01:00:28.389
of that played out. I recently had a very, very

01:00:28.389 --> 01:00:31.809
healing experience that blew my mind and again

01:00:31.809 --> 01:00:36.750
has transformed me. I do believe that when we

01:00:36.750 --> 01:00:39.010
are healing ourselves, like when we're operating,

01:00:39.250 --> 01:00:41.409
when we've worked on ourselves and we're operating

01:00:41.409 --> 01:00:44.230
from a healthy place, we are so necessary in

01:00:44.230 --> 01:00:47.969
the world because we are finding beauty in the

01:00:47.969 --> 01:00:51.030
ashes. That is true. We were able to go into

01:00:51.030 --> 01:00:54.320
those ashes. wallow around maybe but when we

01:00:54.320 --> 01:00:57.199
come back we have this thing and and we invite

01:00:57.199 --> 01:01:00.900
other people to feel safer in their emotions

01:01:00.900 --> 01:01:03.539
and in their journeys and so i'm kind of like

01:01:03.539 --> 01:01:07.420
back to the beginning of rediscovery of wow um

01:01:07.420 --> 01:01:10.480
in terms of my sister -in -law's death one of

01:01:10.480 --> 01:01:13.980
my Father Mike, where I go, there's a number

01:01:13.980 --> 01:01:16.519
of friars and I love them all for what they offer.

01:01:16.599 --> 01:01:18.559
They're very, very different personalities, but

01:01:18.559 --> 01:01:20.460
I love them all. And it's a blessing to have

01:01:20.460 --> 01:01:23.699
so many friars right there. And Father Mike had

01:01:23.699 --> 01:01:26.679
said, you know, God uses everything, you know,

01:01:26.699 --> 01:01:32.539
like a tragic death, losses, war. God uses everything

01:01:32.539 --> 01:01:37.920
to try and make God's presence known. And I absolutely

01:01:37.920 --> 01:01:41.659
fundamentally believe that. at this point, but

01:01:41.659 --> 01:01:46.139
it's rough because, you know, where there's so

01:01:46.139 --> 01:01:49.599
much brokenness, but I think that sometimes I

01:01:49.599 --> 01:01:53.260
really think for me as a Christian that I have

01:01:53.260 --> 01:01:57.239
a fundamental defiance that I, it is, and maybe

01:01:57.239 --> 01:02:00.219
that's not true for other people, but for me,

01:02:00.260 --> 01:02:03.800
I have a fundamental defiance to not give into

01:02:03.800 --> 01:02:09.750
cynicism. I just refuse. I just will not. And

01:02:09.750 --> 01:02:13.630
so the striving is good for that because I just

01:02:13.630 --> 01:02:16.349
can't afford cynicism. It's too dangerous for

01:02:16.349 --> 01:02:21.389
me personally. But being a part of a community

01:02:21.389 --> 01:02:24.590
and a part of a faith that is hope -centered

01:02:24.590 --> 01:02:28.550
is where the healing is. I think the hope is

01:02:28.550 --> 01:02:32.849
the healing. And you sort of go around and around

01:02:32.849 --> 01:02:36.449
in that. But all of our stories, every year,

01:02:36.489 --> 01:02:40.519
it's the hope. Of the return, the hope of the

01:02:40.519 --> 01:02:43.480
return. And as we conclude here, Maureen, I mean,

01:02:43.500 --> 01:02:45.760
I think you're bringing up something that's really

01:02:45.760 --> 01:02:48.920
important and a great place for us to land because

01:02:48.920 --> 01:02:55.659
you're absolutely right that. And I think as

01:02:55.659 --> 01:02:58.179
we revisit all these themes, you know, listening,

01:02:58.280 --> 01:03:01.659
following, rediscovering, healing, hope is the

01:03:01.659 --> 01:03:03.960
thing that's undergirding all of it, you know,

01:03:03.960 --> 01:03:07.199
and you mentioned something really important

01:03:07.199 --> 01:03:10.940
is that. There is a striving toward hope, you

01:03:10.940 --> 01:03:13.739
know, like there, and there has to be, because

01:03:13.739 --> 01:03:16.900
that's, that's almost my declaration of faith

01:03:16.900 --> 01:03:20.760
is that I'm going to keep striving toward hope

01:03:20.760 --> 01:03:25.099
because I dare to believe that there is this

01:03:25.099 --> 01:03:28.019
God that wanted to listen to me when I was in

01:03:28.019 --> 01:03:30.460
my darkest moment, that there was this God that

01:03:30.460 --> 01:03:34.190
went looking, following me. When I was lost and

01:03:34.190 --> 01:03:37.010
couldn't be found, you know, there there is this

01:03:37.010 --> 01:03:42.909
God worth rediscovering because God's never left

01:03:42.909 --> 01:03:47.050
me. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, there and it's like

01:03:47.050 --> 01:03:52.230
grounding it all in hope, I think, is so important

01:03:52.230 --> 01:03:54.489
because that's something worth striving for.

01:03:54.630 --> 01:03:58.449
You know, I sound like sound like Samwise Gamgee.

01:03:58.489 --> 01:04:01.199
Isn't that Lord of the Rings quote? There's good

01:04:01.199 --> 01:04:03.400
in this world, Mr. Frodo, and it's worth fighting

01:04:03.400 --> 01:04:12.820
for. I won't do my accent. And it's true. And

01:04:12.820 --> 01:04:16.039
I love that. I love it. Thank you so much for

01:04:16.039 --> 01:04:18.559
this, by the way, Stephen. I was so looking forward

01:04:18.559 --> 01:04:21.519
to talking to you because it really is just an

01:04:21.519 --> 01:04:24.599
opportunity to ponder these things. Mary pondered

01:04:24.599 --> 01:04:26.559
things in her heart. I use the word pondering

01:04:26.559 --> 01:04:29.900
a lot, but this idea of hope. I just wrote down

01:04:29.900 --> 01:04:32.699
like hope undergirding, listening, following,

01:04:32.940 --> 01:04:36.039
rediscovering, healing. For hope to be under

01:04:36.039 --> 01:04:41.179
that is just, it's comforting to a point of,

01:04:41.260 --> 01:04:45.960
like, it's so real. It's real. But this idea

01:04:45.960 --> 01:04:49.659
of hope, hope being under all of that. And also

01:04:49.659 --> 01:04:53.099
that it's not either or. Oh, it's okay to, like,

01:04:53.159 --> 01:04:55.760
it's okay to strive. It's okay to let go. Striving

01:04:55.760 --> 01:04:59.389
toward hope is when I think of. the things that

01:04:59.389 --> 01:05:02.250
are breaking my heart the most right now, absolutely

01:05:02.250 --> 01:05:07.110
striving toward hope is going to be what I want

01:05:07.110 --> 01:05:10.989
to choose. It is something to choose that's striving

01:05:10.989 --> 01:05:14.809
toward hope. And, and also it means I'm not in

01:05:14.809 --> 01:05:17.909
charge. I'm not the one who's, I don't know what's

01:05:17.909 --> 01:05:21.050
going to happen. I don't know. It's not in my

01:05:21.050 --> 01:05:23.469
control at all, but I can still have that hope

01:05:23.469 --> 01:05:26.809
of whatever that is. And it's kind of promised

01:05:26.809 --> 01:05:29.840
in a way like, The whole idea of Lent, the whole

01:05:29.840 --> 01:05:33.719
idea of the nativity, all of that is about hope.

01:05:33.780 --> 01:05:38.239
All of it. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, when

01:05:38.239 --> 01:05:41.460
you're ready, Maureen, to talk about the next

01:05:41.460 --> 01:05:45.420
phase of your downward spiral into rediscovering

01:05:45.420 --> 01:05:48.519
and healing, we'll have you back on. Thank you.

01:05:48.539 --> 01:05:52.079
I appreciate that. It's a doozy for me. And it's

01:05:52.079 --> 01:05:56.050
all about God's grace and God's timing. which

01:05:56.050 --> 01:05:58.010
is a whole other issue that god's timing thing

01:05:58.010 --> 01:06:02.269
has been very frustrating for me um but yes thank

01:06:02.269 --> 01:06:04.389
you so much i really appreciate you listening

01:06:04.389 --> 01:06:07.510
to me and like just listening to the contours

01:06:07.510 --> 01:06:09.489
of what my faith has been i really appreciate

01:06:09.489 --> 01:06:13.449
the chance to share it i it's I don't take it

01:06:13.449 --> 01:06:15.750
lightly. It helps me so much. It's just like

01:06:15.750 --> 01:06:18.510
miracle grow. Thank you so much. Well, you have

01:06:18.510 --> 01:06:20.949
a beautiful journey and an incredible heart that

01:06:20.949 --> 01:06:23.269
you share with our readers week in and week out

01:06:23.269 --> 01:06:25.469
through pause and pray and issue in and issue

01:06:25.469 --> 01:06:28.170
out through St. Anthony Messenger. So thank you

01:06:28.170 --> 01:06:31.369
for sharing your gifts with us. And yeah, we'll

01:06:31.369 --> 01:06:33.449
have you on again soon. How's that sound? All

01:06:33.449 --> 01:06:35.289
right. That sounds great. Thank you. Thanks for

01:06:35.289 --> 01:06:41.719
coming on off the page, Maureen. Once again,

01:06:41.780 --> 01:06:45.179
that was author and poet Maureen O 'Brien. I've

01:06:45.179 --> 01:06:47.340
linked to her two books, her cover story and

01:06:47.340 --> 01:06:49.719
her past work with Franciscan Media in the show

01:06:49.719 --> 01:06:52.820
notes for this episode. If you enjoyed this episode,

01:06:52.980 --> 01:06:55.340
if there's something that you found thought provoking

01:06:55.340 --> 01:06:58.320
or challenging, please share this podcast with

01:06:58.320 --> 01:07:00.440
a friend or family member and begin a dialogue

01:07:00.440 --> 01:07:03.659
of your own. You can also give us feedback by

01:07:03.659 --> 01:07:07.920
emailing us at info at Franciscan Media. One

01:07:07.920 --> 01:07:11.619
thing I've grown to love about the podcast phenomenon

01:07:11.619 --> 01:07:15.099
is that at its best, I think it elevates listening,

01:07:15.320 --> 01:07:18.920
learning, curiosity, and dialogue. And I hope

01:07:18.920 --> 01:07:21.420
that we can each take these traits into our everyday

01:07:21.420 --> 01:07:24.980
lives and relationships. Thanks as always for

01:07:24.980 --> 01:07:28.000
your support. Peace and all good.