Welcome to Off the Page, it's great to be with
you. So it's been about a week since Robert Francis
Prevost was elected Bishop of Rome and took the
name Pope Leo XIV. In this special episode, we
have a discussion with Father Jim Saback and
Deacon Matthew Halbach about Pope Leo and the
significance of this historic moment in the church
and in the world. This conversation was a lot
of fun. I absolutely loved their energy and how
they fed off one another, and I'd love to bring
them back if they're open to it for perhaps future
roundtables about current events and major happenings
within the church. Before we dive in, a brief
introduction to Jim and Matt. Father Jim Saback
is a Franciscan friar of Our Lady of Guadalupe
province and currently serves as director of
divine worship for the Diocese of Raleigh in
North Carolina. He's also the Director of Religion
at the Franciscan School in Raleigh. Father Jim
earned his Bachelor of Arts, Master of Arts,
and Doctor of Philosophy degrees from the Catholic
University of America in Washington, DC. Father
Jim has taught at Siena College, the Catholic
University of America. the Franciscan School
of Theology, and Providence College. Perhaps
you're familiar, but Father Jim also has his
own podcast with Franciscan Media. It's called
The Inbreaking of the Word. It's published on
every Monday morning, and he essentially dissects
the Sunday readings from Mass and helps us to
take the Word with us into our weeks. You can
listen to that podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
YouTube, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
On to Deacon Matt. Matt Halbach is the president
of Franciscan Media. He was ordained in 2018
for the Diocese of Des Moines, Iowa. He is the
director of deacon formation for the diocese
and a national author and speaker on the topics
of mercy, accompaniment, evangelization, and
catechesis. He earned his PhD in catechetics
from the Catholic University of America in 2014
and is a reviewer for the International Journal
of Evangelization and Catechesis. Matt is a husband
and he is also a father of six children. So without
further ado, here is Father Jim and Deacon Matt.
Enjoy. All right, Father Jim and Deacon Matt,
let's dive right in here. So it's been almost
a week since this historic moment. What is your
reaction and what stands out to you from a Franciscan
perspective about this pope? Father Jim, how
about we start with you? I think, first and foremost,
the entire unexpected appearance of him on the
balcony of St. Peter's Basilica. His name was
mentioned, but way, way, way down the list. And
I guess in many ways, it's surprising that he
did show up when he did and that it was him.
But it's also... again, affirming that public
opinion and our digital age and whatever it is,
knows nothing about us. And what was being posted
and held up as being, you know, the likely candidates
or the front runners or whatever it was, it just
turned out to be nothing. And so if there were
any bets that were being placed in whatever kind
of fan duel, you know, for Popes, again, I don't
know how many people lost money on this or whatever
it was, but it was amazing. It was amazing to
see this. person of very little renown kind of
step out now in this position as Holy Father,
as Pope. What about being a Franciscan friar,
Father Jim? What stood out to you about him coming
right after Pope Francis, who's been described
as someone with a Franciscan heart? What was
your reaction there from a Franciscan point of
view? Well, again, I guess I can say that we...
Franciscans and Augustinians, we were formed
at the same time in history, about the 13th century,
what have you. So we do come from a type of movement
that was trying to find its way through a church
that was kind of off balance or having lost its
own way as to what it was supposed to represent
in the world, getting too wrapped up with...
many worldly issues that were beyond perhaps
what we should be thinking about and looking
at as people of faith. So to have someone who
was mendicant -ish, because the Augustines are
not necessarily considered part of the mendicant
movement in one way, but mendicant -ish, again,
take on this mantle, another religious order.
you know, a bishop taking on this mantle was
what was very interesting, again, that we've
gone twice in that direction, which we haven't
in a very, very long time. And so it's always
interesting that in the Eastern Orthodox Church,
Bishops usually come from the monastic communities,
not necessarily from the parochial communities.
So it's an interesting kind of nod, if that was
even thought about in some ways, to that kind
of practice in the East by choosing another religious
community member within that. Just again, but
just to say, you know, the thing with Pope Francis,
he came out in the white cassock, appears in
the evening, says good evening, buona sera to
everybody. And Leo comes out in the papal regalia.
And nothing has been said about that kind of
interesting distinction. But that was, at the
beginning of Francis's pontificate, so much.
Look at him. Look at him. He's just in the white.
He just came out there. He said good evening
to everybody and then launched into his whatever,
whatever, whatever. So there was a bit of a difference.
What does it mean? Where are we going with this?
Still remains to be seen within that. But I think
it's important to kind of acknowledge that, first
and foremost. where he goes as a person formed
within this mendicant orbit will be interesting
to see. An ancient order within the church, not
like those upstart Jesuits who were formed in
the 16th century. Way back when. Yeah, that's
really interesting. Deacon Matt, what are your
thoughts? Just picking up where Jim sort of began,
I wonder how many people lost money on this one.
It was really funny that there were actually
bets. You could actually go on apps and do Pope
betting. I don't know if that's been done before.
Something else that really blew my mind was I'm
a Pat McAfee fan who's a sports podcaster for
ESPN and also College Sports Day and everything,
but Game Day. Go Colts. Yeah, and former Colts
kicker. And he's covering. the the election and
i'm like what like they break to it and the pope
like they're sitting there and he's getting all
worked up like mcafee does and he's jumping up
and down and they're all guessing like who it
might be and then the guy comes out and they're
all on their phones trying to figure out who
this guy is and they I hate saying it. Sorry,
Pat McAfee, but nobody on that show knew anything
about Catholicism or anything about the Pope
or papal elections. But it was so funny to watch
it. And it was interesting to see. Catholicism,
which is so countercultural oftentimes and so
hidden within mainstream culture to be kind of
front and center. So that like to be on the Pat
McAfee show, the covering the Pope coming out
on the Logia was the most bizarre, bizarre thing
I've ever seen in my life. So that's where I
want to start. I think it's been a bizarre experience.
It's been very exciting. I want to say too that.
Given the very little that Leo has said about
his agenda, he has talked a little bit about
Catholic social teaching, and he also makes a
strong connection with Vatican II, as did our
previous pope, and wanting to carry forward that
council and all of its teaching. And I think
specifically, I'll be interested to see how he
does that, and how does he... how does he make
Catholic social teaching relevant for this generation
and next generations of Catholics? And how does
he make that teaching resonate? And how does
he do it in a way that invites everybody and
who's not like an insider to understand the beauty
and the dignity of Catholic social teaching and
how it's so important in our world today? I'm
very interested to see how that all plays out.
I also think, like Jim mentioned, kind of, who
is this guy? Yes, he's an American, but he also
has a Peruvian citizen status. But I love the
idea. And I think this was totally a Holy Spirit
thing, to be honest with you, because in a way,
he's kind of representing the Americas. And I
think that's a genius move, because there's been
a lot of... historically and recently, a lot
of kind of like a pipeline of evangelization
and theology, particularly pastoral theology
coming from Latin America. Just Pope Francis
really helped to usher that in with like accompaniment.
And even we've been talking in the church for
a long time, like back with John Paul II about
new evangelization, well, all of that speak began
with the bishops in Latin America. And so I think
we're just kind of continuing to see that pipeline
here, and now we've got someone who's sort of
straddling North and Central and South America
with his dual citizenship, and I'm just really
excited to see where all this goes. Yeah, you
mentioned Catholic social teaching, and I've
seen a number of articles kind of connecting
Leo, the name he chose, to Catholic social teaching.
Father Jim, did you have any thoughts on that?
That seems to be a a big theme that has emerged
in this first week of his papacy. Well, yeah.
Well, I guess choosing, I mean, when they announced
Leo, I was like, Leo, God, because you went from
Johns and Paul's, Johns and Paul's, you had a
Benedict shoved in there for a little bit. And
then you go to a Francis, you know, you get Francis
with this whole idea where nobody else has been
named that. So I've got no legacy to live up
to. So I can do whatever I want. I think that's
what Francis did. But when you take a name that's
been used before, yes, who are you carrying along
with you? And there's been 13 of them before
him. And so it is Leo XIII, again, who was also
the initiator of the Catholic University of America,
my alma mater. Alma mater. Yes, I'm sorry. By
the way. I was a graduate and a graduate. Matt
was a graduate. Matt and I both have a legacy
at Catholic University. And we have Leo XIII
to add to. Oh, thank for that. But I think that
within that also, there were a lot of Leos, you
know, and it's like, and the first thing that
came to my mind when I heard Leo was not Leo
XIII. It was Leo X, basically, who was the warrior
bishop, warrior pope. He wasn't a Borgia, Domenici.
He was a Domenici pope for that powerful family.
You know, he was instrumental in... building
St. Peter's Basilica. He is the one who instigated,
in many ways, the Protestant Reformation. Named
after this joker? But then there's also Leo I,
who stood up to Attila the Hun and stopped Attila
from sacking the city of Rome. But then there's
Leo III, who basically crowned Charlemagne Holy
Roman Emperor, much to the anger and the angst
of the Holy Roman Emperors in Constantinople,
thereby moving forward the split between the
two churches. He was a joke. He was an idiot.
So the thing is, we have this guy with all of
these kinds of legacies attached to this name.
But now looking at Leo XIII, you know, and the
last aristocrat is always, again, nobody's talked
to, as Matt was saying, we had the sporting network
trying to announce all of this and whatever it
is. Nobody understands who any of these people
are. But you look at Leo XIII, the last aristocrat,
the last aristocrat to be raised to the papal
throne, but somebody who was conscious of working
class people. But also, again, the sense in which
not to be afraid of the modern world, which is
why that encyclical, Rerum Novarum, begins with
the topic of new things. And this is where Pius
IX, his predecessor, hated the modern world.
It made sure that we created a citadel around
ourselves as faithful people to keep out the
modern world. Leo XIII was not that way. engagement
with the world, this engagement with modernity,
this engagement with the basic needs of human
beings. One hopes, again, Francis gave us a way
to that with looking at the poor. I'm wondering,
though, there's also all the other people whose
lives are not happy, even though we think they
are because they have bank accounts. So is this
going to be addressing this more that we need
to look at as a church. It remains to be seen,
but it is rather exciting, you know, to kind
of think about it in this way. Yeah. Matt, as
you listen, do you have anything to add there?
Yeah, I do. First of all, Jim was, when I was
at Catholic U, he was a teaching assistant and
he taught teaching and religious education. And
he was brutal. He was brutal. He was brutal.
Everyone was afraid of him. And he just ruled
with an iron rod. No, I'm kidding. He was terrific.
But just picking up really quick, Jimmy said
a lot of wonderful things and insightful things.
The only thing I have to add is, and it was kind
of connected to my comment about how will this
pope carry forward the teachings of Vatican II.
So he, you know, going back to Leo XIII, so we
have him. in the, in the sort of swell of the
beginnings of, of scripture renewal in the Catholic
church too. And he writes this great encyclical,
and so he's caught that wave and it kind of takes
into greater consideration more of historical
critical methodology and scripture and so forth.
And that was a big move because up until the
late 19th century, It was sort of like age -old
beliefs about the authority of Scripture and
the authoring of Scripture and dating of Scripture
and all of this. And then, of course, modern...
historical critical methods were challenging
all that. And Leo jumps into it and doesn't try
to squash it. He tries to direct it and guide
it. But it's this idea, again, that played out
at Vatican II of, you know, let's go back to
the sources and let's try to bring those sources
forward. You know, what's that updating that
needs to happen? That was a big word at the council,
adjournamento. What's that updating? He was a
product and sort of shepherd of the updating
of the modern scriptural renewal in the Catholic
Church. Also with Rerum Novarum, I think that's
another idea of retrieving. age -old Catholic
teaching on morality and social mores and so
forth, and how to bring that forward in ways
that are relevant for what's going on and what's
facing society today and challenging human dignity.
So again, I'm interested to see how he becomes
this Vatican II pope who's going back to the
sources and bringing them forward and making
them relevant for today. One thing we have yet
to hit on, well, Matt, you hit on it a little
bit being this Pope who's from the Americas,
but he has been described as an American Pope.
But Father Jim, you've mentioned that perhaps
a more accurate description would be a missionary
Pope. So can you explain why this is an important
distinction? And then what can we learn in our
own walks of faith about his journey to the papacy?
Because it's a very interesting journey he's
been on. Exactly. I think that there's a variety
of levels within that. And sometimes, is it embarrassing
to be American? Always. But how do you navigate
through all of this? Because this whole idea,
it's the American pope, it's the American pope.
You know, there was a photograph that was taken
before the conclave began. of the American popes.
He was not in that picture. Why? Because he was
a pope in Peru. And so he may be an American,
but he is not an American pope. So he's not a
pope from the United States. And that has yet
to kind of, we're not thinking about that. But
it's how we have to think in this way. He was
a missionary bishop. He was not an American bishop.
As I know from my own community, what has happened
many times is that when we went out into the
missionary areas, and guys who were missionaries
were then raised to the episcopacy and became
bishops in all of those larger dioceses, the
dioceses that were established. For the Franciscans,
it was in Colombia and in Brazil, and became
bishops in those dioceses. What happened after
a time is that, yes, you are connected. but know
that connection begins to transition in some
ways. It begins to transform. And many of them
became citizens of those countries that they
were bishop of only because... It's right. It's
what needs to happen. You need to know the people
whom you are called to guide and to nurture and
to lead. And you can't do that from a part -time
kind of thing. Well, I'm going back to Miami
to sit on the beach, everybody. I'll see you
in three weeks or a month or whatever it is.
You need to do that. And this is what, you know,
Pope Leo. did, you know, in that diocese in Peru.
Chiclayo, I think it was, is its name. It was
the fourth, it's the fourth largest city in Peru,
but one of the more poor diocese. And so the
sense in which, yes, he's a White Sox fan. Yes,
he's a Bears fan. Yes, he eats hot dogs or whatever
they eat in Chicago. I have no idea. But no,
people relax, relax. I mean, he isn't going to
support. American ways in the way that we understand
American ways as people who don't leave the country
enough, maybe. And so this is the thing. So being
a missionary pope, even, gives a very different
sort of dynamic. Again, Pope Francis was Argentinian.
He was Bishop of Buenos Aires, the largest city,
the fashion city, the city that was modeled in
some ways on London, you know, and things like
that. He was a cosmopolitan bishop and he was
a bishop who was Argentinian taking on a role
in the episcopacy there. This is very different
for Poblio. He was an American. He is an American,
but now he is also a Peruvian and picking up
this idea about being somebody who brings. the
gospel to a place that doesn't necessarily have
it in a way that may be beneficial for the area,
for the people. So that whole kind of, what is
he bringing us? What is he going to bring us
as a missionary, you know, Pope, you know, Bishop
Pope now? That's kind of exciting, too, to see
what happens. Absolutely. Matt, what do you have
to add there? Yeah, again, I love everything
you're saying, Father Jim, and I have very little
to add other than, and I'm saying that I don't
have to try to ingratiate and get good grades.
I'm really saying that now, you know, so many
years removed from Catholic. You're my favorite.
You're always my favorite. Okay. So I think the
only thing I would add is, you know, let's do
a juxtaposition. So I'm a deacon in my parish.
I'd say it's fairly a middle to upper class parish.
When I preach and when I minister, I'm not preaching
a message about... to an audience or to a congregation
that is concerned about where it's going to find
its next meal or where it's going to get clean
water or where it's going to take shelter when
the harsh Iowa winter comes. And I think the
fact that this Pope, Pope Leo, has spent his
time as a missionary priest and bishop means
that his pastoral, his theological approach and
therefore his preaching and therefore his teaching,
I think, is going to be very much motivated by...
his pastoral care experience, and we're going
to see very clear connections between the Word
of God, theology and Catholic teaching, and the
very basics of human life and human dignity.
And I think that's a great thing, because the
more we can make Catholic teaching and theology
practical, the more impact it's going to have.
And in the end, that's what the Church and I
think the Pope would want is positive impact.
And that's where, again, taking Leo XIII, this
whole idea of these working class people, you
know, and it wasn't, again, if you look at Rerum
Novarum, he isn't talking about Catholic working
class people. It was the whole working class
and the issue with them, which also, again, there
were other dynamics attempting to address the
working class people at the time that Leo XIII
was living. And for the church to have said nothing
in response to that would have been a terrible
injustice to these people and a very large wrong
upon us. The question is always, again, Matt
and I, we've talked about this a lot. What is
it that we are actually bringing to this world,
you know, to kind of to dialogue with it? And
that's not just a midlife crisis either. We're
not anywhere near midlife, Matt. So that's the
thing. So that's the thing. It's like, how do
we speak? Because that's, again, what Vatican
II said we have to do. Speak to the modern world.
Again, the hopes and dreams, the challenges and
victories that all that that's going to hold
God. him at spaz business this is what we and
have we lost a sense of that you know in thinking
that faith gets me into heaven and that's about
it and it could be a pastime that i pursue in
the hope that when i die i'll get into pearly
gates and a happy little place for myself that's
that's never the that was never the gospel that
wasn't the gospel asks us to do ever yeah dude
you both have hit on it do either of you have
any thoughts on i've seen a couple articles connecting
Pope Leo XIII in the Industrial Revolution to
now Pope Leo XIV and everything that's happening
with AI in this technological revolution. So
what do you anticipate in the years ahead and
how do you think him bringing... wisdom of the
past and Catholic social teaching, all these
different things you all have been hitting on.
How is he going to meet that head on, do you
foresee? I mean, I don't think either of us can
say how it's going to happen, but to the point
about AI, he did bring that up in his first meeting
with the Cardinals post -election and post his
first mass as Pope. So this was kind of their
first let's get down to business meeting, and
AI came up as something that concerns him, specifically
because it challenges it threatens the dignity
of human work. And if machines, if you will,
this sounds so Orwellian or Asimov or something,
robots are taking over. But in a way, we're seeing
that happen. And there's something very wonderful
about that and beautiful about that. But as Leo
is suggesting, there's also something very threatening
about that. And so what... I think what he will
try to do is just, again, make sure that front
and center with any debates or considerations
about AI is always the dignity of the human person.
And there's very little else that brings dignity
to human being and living more so than work.
There are other things, but like worship, for
example, and human love. But beyond that, humans
are... created to work too. You know, homo faber,
we're created to make things and create things.
We're made in God's image and likeness, and he's
a creator. And if we're not able to do those
kinds of things anymore, or there are now less
opportunities to do that, or how we do it is
so, what's the word I'm looking for? Our agency
as human beings is so impaired. That's going
to have dramatic effects on what it means to
be a human being one, two, three generations
from now. So that's what he's trying to raise
the bell on. People are trying to take a shortcut
because they know that having to compose something
in whatever career they're in is going to get
them ahead. And they want either the money or
the title or the prestige in a cheap way. And
again, that demeans our human dignity. But because
we're living in a world that says get what you
can when you can in some ways, we can reconcile
that somehow in a very bad and troubling way
within that. The other half of it is, again,
What Rerum Novarum, like again, what Matt was
talking about perfectly, about the idea of work
and of labor, what Rerum Novarum says very beautifully,
and why Leo XIII wanted to make sure that we
understood this, is that whenever we create,
a part of us is shared into what it is that we
create. A part of us goes into what is it that
we create. And so we extend, you know, ourself
into this creation. through which God speaks
to us. Again, the sacramental principle. God
speaks to us through creation, and we respond
by what it is that we create and we do to that
speaking within us. all of that is co -opted.
All of that is destroyed if we're using magical
things to speak for us. And what kind of voice
is that? And are we conscious of that? But where
this comes down to, what's in it for me, the
withums, as we call it, that's too much where,
again... Is it only American mindset culture?
I think more times than not, it is. In other
cultures, it might not be so brazen. But the
thing is, within our American culture, at least,
getting what I need to get is front and foremost
and using any kind of means. And so to have Pope
Leo be able to address this in some ways, hopefully,
it would be a wonderful dream to see what happens.
The other thing, he's young. Again, he's only,
and I won't have you add it up, but you probably
could. He's seven years older than me. And so
1955, he was born. So that whole thing is he
may have some knowledge very dimly of the pre
-Vatican II Church, but he grew up basically
or came into his own in the post -Vatican II
Church. Francis did not. So Francis had a stabilized
beginning within the pre -Vatican II Church.
Well, that's also something that is really unique,
because what will that mean for those who come
in in this generation now to take on these kinds
of responsibilities? And because he is younger,
is there a savviness with technology? I remember
everybody was like when Pope Benedict... It was
TikTok or Twitter. I don't know what it was,
a Twitter account. I think it was a Twitter account.
And everybody was like, the Pope has a Twitter
account. Oh, my gosh. But he was an old man fiddling
with a Twitter account. It just looked like one
of those old people with a Twitter account. But
now, is there something more to all of this that
will impact how we... continue to evolve as a
church. Yeah, well, that leads perfectly into
another thing I wanted to get both of your thoughts
on. I mean, in the last several days, and I happen
to spend too much time on Twitter, unfortunately,
but there have been many people and groups trying
to kind of, in a sense, claim this. pope as their
own um and i was doing it too i was like he's
a cubs fan he's a cubs fan and even and i think
i think even uh they put him on the marquee at
wrigley field and then it came out hours later
that oh he's a white socks fan in fact there
we go laying a foundation for the next cubs curse
again But then this has been happening on a deeper
level, too. I mean, there have been these dives
into his own Twitter feed as a cardinal where
it was kind of revealed that he had been critic
of the Trump administration. And then people
on the left, I've seen them proudly kind of saying
that he's woke. And then people on the right
cautioning that he's progressive like Francis.
And so, like, distill this for our listeners.
Whose pope is he? And maybe a deeper question
is, should the pope be a politician? So, I don't
know, I think what gets lost in these conversations
when we project our own American politics onto
a church that is eight times older than the founding
of the United States, I mean, a lot kind of slips
away there. So, Deacon Matt, how about we start
with you? What are your thoughts there? Yeah,
whose pope is he? I'd say we start with first,
he's the Cardinal's pope. I mean, they elected
him. And so I think who this man is and who he
will be is in some ways reflective of the personalities
and the aspirations and the concerns also of
the College of Cardinals. And in another sense,
whose pope is he? He's also Pope Francis's pope.
Why? Because Francis made him a cardinal. And
Francis made 80 % of the current College of Cardinals
cardinals. And in a way, you know, we would expect
then that Leo would in some way, and you could
see it even on the loggia when he's saying Francis
is here, you know, and he's sort of looking down
on us or he's blessing us. He said it again at
his first homily. So there's a strong connection
there. So in that sense, he's kind of Francis's
Pope, Pope Francis's Pope. I think also that,
you know, And this is not a romantic thing, right?
This is Catholic belief. He's the Holy Spirit's
Pope. So this isn't just a pure election, some
political thing, you know, as much as the, it's
so funny. I saw on, where did I see this? Somewhere
about like the views of the movie Conclave went
up 279 % during, it's not so much. the way that
that's portrayed but i think there's a cooperation
there between humanity and god at a papal election
that's very special and unique and i think we
need to you know understand that and respect
that and to your point stephen this isn't about
uh american political categories just don't fit
and because we're not just some polis we're and
i don't mean to over romanticize this again this
is part of just who we are as we find our identity
in the word of God. We're part of God's family.
This is a family thing. And this is why we call
him the holy father and not the holy guy or the
holy administrator or the holy president or the
holy whatever. So it's more like, you know, in
most cases, we don't get to choose our family.
But in this case, in a strange way, we do get
to. And so... I don't know. It doesn't surprise
me that he was a dark horse. It doesn't surprise
me that we didn't know it was going to be him.
But I think we need to look at him in trans -political
terms and maybe look more in familial categories.
And in that sense, there's a real challenge right
there for his papacy. How will he demonstrate
What does it mean to be a charitable, respectful,
dignified father in the 21st century? How can
he show us the way? And how can he, boy, Pope
Francis, and I'll get off my soapbox, and Amoris
Laetitia. I hope that this pope continues to
dig into the family and the crises and challenges
facing the family. And I hope by his example
as a father, he will do that very well. Yeah,
Father Jim, I see you nodding your head. What
are your thoughts there? It's the same thing
along the lines of what Matt was saying. Again,
this desire... To place the Pope on a spectrum,
you know, and and and again, OK, so the thing
that bothered me. leading up to the conclave,
you know, was also the talking about how, well,
I guess we'll get a conservative pope since we
had a liberal one in France. I was like, what
the hell is this? You know, because it basically
is, you know, we can't flip -flop. And it's like,
again, it's the culture looking at us as this
weird novelty, you know, it's like that they
can mock, I guess, in one way or just look at
us as weirdos because we just can't seem to find
our way. You know, we go back and forth. Yes,
there seemed to be some cardinals who represented
maybe a more antagonistic view towards things
that history has let evolve in many ways. Would
they have made a good pope or not? I guess the
Holy Spirit thought maybe not. And that's why
they didn't rise to this. But again, you have
this man who's... career, whose life, whose life
as a religious, whose life as a faith -filled
person was based upon helping, as Matt had said
before, people who are fearful of putting a meal
on a table, people who may have no shelter during
a storm, people in destitute conditions and needing
this kind of help. We haven't had that in an
exceedingly long time. And that really has not
yet come to a full awareness, I think, in any
of the discussions. We've had bishop bishops,
we've had a lot of bureaucrats, a lot of bureaucrats,
and, you know, and people who were in a line
because they were in a bureaucratic job that
necessarily would have placed them into this
position. To have someone Now, like Pope Leo,
again, who comes from an American milieu, it
is not easy to pin down any claim on him, I believe.
And already, the thing I was talking with Matt
the other day, just people saying, and Francis'
platform is, you don't know anything about a
platform. What the hell are you talking about,
a platform? He hasn't said. Anything, really.
Little snippets here and there. How many this?
How many that? It's not like, you know, when.
When Charles opens up, Charles III of Great Britain
and Northern Ireland, opens up Parliament, he
speaks in a speech with a piece of paper that
says, and my government will do this, and my
government will do that. Oh, he's getting it
all from the major party that's in charge, yes.
But he makes the statement. There's no pope that
says, and my papacy will do this, and our church
or my church will do that. It doesn't work that
way. And I think that for some reason we were,
I think people were put off kilter with Francis
and what it means to take on this title because
that's all that it is. It is a title. He is Bishop
of Rome and that's about it. But then it comes
with this other stuff that come along with this
title. We've not had anybody really look at any
of this in a really critically broad way for
a long time. And now you get this guy who is
– again, he seems to be approachable. He seems
to be unlike other things. He seems to be cognizant
of certain things. He seems to come from a background
that is much more complex and perhaps many -layered,
multivalent than we've understood. Again, the
whole thing about trying to get his – his ancestry
down. And he has Black Haitian background and
things like that. Again, nobody looked at Pope
Francis' genealogy and things like that, but
this is where. And again, he could represent
an American ethos of different peoples coming
to the United States and mixing together and
things like that. But that is not something you
claim. That is something that you hold and you
see how it unfolds, what fruit it bears. Today's
gospel, you know, is about Jesus saying, I chose
you to go out and bear fruit, you know, that
will remain. Well, the thing is, if the Holy
Spirit has chosen Publio, you know, so what is
it that he will bear, you know, as fruit? Considering,
our focus needs to consider all of what has made
him. Pope Leo. Yeah, this is a very basic question,
but I'd be interested to get both of your thoughts.
I mean, what is the Pope's role? Because we come
out of this time where he's lifted up and everyone's
talking about him, and then there's kind of quiet.
And I mean, in your view, what should the Pope's
role be, particularly today, as he reads the
signs of the times and leads the church in that
direction? Matt, how about we start with you?
Yeah, well, it's in his title, what he should
be doing, right? Pontifex Maximus, he's the great
bridge builder, or he's supposed to be. and he's
the first among equals with the bishops. He's
supposed to be a center point, a point of intersection,
and not just for the hierarchy of the church,
but for the world. And I think that's been the
struggle for so many popes is the latter. Because
it's not just the figurehead, it's also then...
Yes, the institution, but also the body of Christ
that he represents, i .e. the Catholic Church.
How does that then become a point of intersection
for the world? Or how could it become more so
that? And we can say that in different ways.
How could it become more inclusive or inviting?
How can it be more relevant? How can it be more
of an advocate for the poor and marginalized?
And so on and so forth. So I think bridge building...
He does that through diplomacy. He does that
in different ways and teachings, you know, speaking
and so forth. But I think just trying to show
us that. And I think, by the way, this is a critical
paradigm to really continue to show the world
right now, because it just doesn't. we don't
even have to say this, but we live in such a
polarized, let's just talk about the United States,
such a polarized society where probably the last
thing on most people's minds is, hey, how do
we come together? And how do we truly try to
dialogue? Because that is not easy. And that
doesn't mean just finding a common denominator.
How do we really respect our differences? How
do we really... cultivate a sense of empathy,
truly a desire to try to walk in someone else's
shoes, if you will? And how does the Pope, again,
from his vantage point, how does he accomplish
that? But that's what I would say. He should
be a bridge builder. Father Jim, thoughts? And
jumping off of that, I mean, this is the whole
point. Again, is the Pope... supposed to be political
or not. And this is where we, again, in our paltry
understanding of words and English and what they
mean, because again, we are not as smart as we
think we are sometimes as Americans. Again, the
whole idea of what does it mean to be political?
What is polis in the Greek? It is that which
looks out for the welfare of a community. No
more, no less. You know, it's not about political
agendas. It's not about platforms. It's not about
manifestos. nothing about that, which is what
unfortunately it has become. And so we as believers
in the world, and that's the first thing I would
hope that maybe Pope Leo begins to emphasize,
is that before there are titles of Catholic,
Lutheran, Methodist, Anglican, whatever it is,
we are believers. in a world that doesn't want
to believe in anything but what it thinks it
wants to believe in, I guess. And yet we are
called, as believers in this world, ourselves
to build bridges. And so if this Pontifex Maximus
should be the guide for what it means for us
to build bridges within this world, to create
communities where the welfare of others you know,
is taken care of. And that nobody rests secure
until everyone rests secure. I mean, because
that is, if you want to take a look at, you know...
Again, from the Franciscan standpoint, in some
places, that's what Francis did. He tried to
build bridges. And that's why, again, his relationships
with popes were perhaps so good because they
saw something in him that allowed them maybe
to do their job in a better way that they could
not do on their own in some places. Within all
of that, I think, is also the sense of memory.
We take a look as head of the church, head of
the church, head of the church. And as Matt was
getting, he is servant to the servants of God.
He is the first among equals, you know, within
that. So head of the church doesn't necessarily
work within this because every bishop is the
head of a church. You know, it's a local church,
it's a diocese, whatever it is. So what is this
pope really about? Well, remember always that
the power above a pope is a council. We are a
conciliar church, not a papal church, although
many people have forgotten that and they take
a look at us only as a papal church. Councils
are what we abide by. And our last council was
Vatican II. And it was up to popes that follow
after that council concluded that they were the
ones now who put into work what this council
represented. How have they done that is another
whole kind of question to ask. pope leo's responsibility
is to take what vatican ii discussed and understood
and see how it continues to speak more than 50
years you know in fact we're moving on to 60
years after its conclusion you know and and and
that really needs to be something that is thought
about, I think, because unless he calls another
council, you know, to kind of do something else,
we are operating under this. And I think a lot
of times we've forgotten that. So this is, again,
what his role should be for us is to implement
this bridge building, as Matt says, that allows
us to get this modern world talking and understanding
itself. Yeah, Matt, do you have any thoughts
on that? That's a really interesting, the architecture
you kind of laid out there that, yeah, we're
a church based on councils, where hearts and
minds have been coming together for centuries.
Matt, do you have anything to add there? Not
really, other than, you know, I don't know if
it's really an either or thing either. I think
there is obviously the... the administrative
role of the pope, and the pope has his own sort
of place as first among equals, and then also
we have, you know, the council or the conciliar
dimension of the church's governance and administration.
So they kind of go hand in hand. Yeah, that's
an important point too, I think. Switching gears
a little bit, I did want to go back to something
you said early on, Matt. You were talking about...
Watching the Pat McAfee show, and I love that
show as well. And they're talking about the Pope.
Anytime there is a new Pope, it's always very
interesting that really the level of the fascination,
the level of interest by not only Catholics,
but non -Catholics or non -practicing Catholics.
And why, in your view, is this such a spectacle?
And maybe deeper, how do you think the... first
quote -unquote American pope could help to renew
and, in the spirit of St. Francis of Assisi,
as we've been discussing, help to rebuild the
Catholic Church in America. I'd love for you
to kick us off, Matt. Wow, that's a tall order
in terms of living up to St. Francis of Assisi,
but I'll start with a very simple response. How
do I categorize the phenomena around the Pope,
the interest, the celebrity, like the spectacle,
as you said? I think it's very simple. It's two
things. It's novelty and it's oddity. And think
about it. We crave the new. In so many different
aspects of our life. I see it especially with
my children. I'm a father of six, and I know
I was this way too at their age. But if it's
old, whether it's a thing or a person, and I'm
just being very real with y 'all, I don't know
if I really wanted to have that thing or listen
to that person. Old is bad. It's this horrible...
equation that we sort of get in our heads, you
know, when we're younger in life that we don't
need the old or let's usher it out and make room
for the new. And of course, we always represent
that new and wonderful thing, right? And ideas
and everything else. But I think we crave novelty.
And part of the craving behind it is truly, I
think we're looking, this is me, I'm not trying
to over -spiritualize this again or over -idealize
or be Pollyannish, but I do think It's kind of
like, and it wasn't G .K. Chesterton, it was
a Protestant pastor who quoted this, but he said,
anybody who goes to the door of a brothel is
really looking for God. And I would like to apply
that here. I think people are really looking
for God to arrive on the scene in a new, interesting
way. And in this case, in the form and structure
of the church and in the election of the Pope,
I think, honestly, there's a sincere interest
that is coming from the hearts of people in their
own quest for God. And I think that's part of
this novelty, too. So it's not, in my mind, just
a public circus or spectacle. I think there is
something deeper happening. But it is also an
oddity, like a papal election with all of its
traps. happenings and ceremony, that ceremony
that dates back hundreds and hundreds of years.
It's strange. Like we don't, we don't see that.
It's like watching the coronation of, you know,
King Charles or Queen Elizabeth. These things
just don't happen often. And they're strange
to us and, and literally foreign to us. And I
think that's part of it. I think that I want
to kind of take a different angle. I wish that.
And I'm speaking to Catholics here. I wish that
more Catholics would be just as enthralled and
curious and intrigued in their own quest for
God within just the Mass that's offered every
single day. I mean, that's where Jesus shows
up. That's way more interesting to me than a
papal election. That's way more important to
me than who's the next pope or whether the pope's
visiting the U .S. or wherever he is in the world.
There's such a skewed... in terms of like interest,
right? Even among Catholics that like, oh my
gosh, the Pope's coming to Philadelphia or to
New York. I was thinking of Pope Francis. Back
in the 1970s, when John Paul II visited my hometown
in Iowa, throngs of people came out, and it was
this huge thing. But then probably two or three
weeks later, attendance at Sunday Mass is probably
half what it should be, right? There's a lot
of empty pews. So there's something going on
here that I'm very curious to unpack, too. But
man, I wish we had that kind of excitement just
around the fact that Jesus is with us in his
word and in our daily bread. Absolutely. Yeah.
Father Jim, what would you add? Just the kind
of thing, just what Matt said. public fancy,
you know, or the fleeting interest, because I
think that's kind of what it is in some ways,
too. The fleeting interest in all of this will
wane, you know, and then it becomes, you know,
because Matt and I were talking, there was a
CNN, you know, broadcast about, you know, that
it was in to be Catholic, you know, all of a
sudden during all of this. In to be Catholic?
What the heck does that mean? You know, but it's
this whole kind of thing where novelty and whatever
it is can wrap us up into all kinds of things.
But I also think, so when you look at what makes
money for Hollywood nowadays, it is superhero
movies. It is the whole DC Marvel comic universe
unfolding and unfolding, unfolding. has caused
us in many ways to want to take the idea of hero
and to turn that into somebody who just doesn't
do his or her job well, but somehow becomes superhuman.
We want a hero. I mean, why? Because is everything
so out of control or we're so afraid of everything
that we need to have somebody like that? Well,
don't let the Holy Father. go into that category
because I think that's what kind of has happened.
You know, whenever the Dalai Lama comes, you
know, ah, the Dalai Lama is here as if, as if
it's going to change everything and he shows
up and it's nice and he says nice things and,
and those who are truly attracted to him will
come away with something, but the rest of the
world still meanders on in, in, in hurt and brokenness,
you know? And so, so this is where I, again,
I go back to the whole understanding of, What
is it about us as believers, you know, that we
will need to reclaim? And again, as Matt said,
the Eucharist is supposed to be about teaching
us to be witnesses to more than just what life
is throwing at us. You know, go, you are sent.
You know, that is a dismissal. But sometimes
it gets distorted and the Mass has ended. Thank
God. Go in peace. You know, because it was a
horrible experience. We had to endure it for
an hour or 45 minutes. And it's not what we that's
not what we were ever called to do. I mean, and
so can this idea of a pope? I think Francis attempted
to move us in this direction in some ways. The
other whole part of this. is that there are no
term limits. So Benedict resigned. Thankfully,
he realized he should never have been chosen,
which is a whole other podcast. Again, it's like,
did the Holy Spirit choose him or not? And can
you say no to the Holy Spirit when it chooses
you? But the fact of the matter is, when they
get older, they become feeble and they become
not so much on the stage and they can't see things
and they get sick. And we see them kind of bloated
with medicines and everything else like that.
Okay, you're still leading, I guess, but then
how? And what's going on with all of that? Again,
it's all these things that I think about at night.
But those are the kinds of things I think that
need to also be part of our awareness and our
conversations. I got one thing for you, Stephen.
I failed to answer the piece about... living
up to St. Francis or living into St. Francis.
But I just want to offer this thought. You know,
back, it was early in Pope Francis's papacy when
he went to the prison and kissed the feet and
washed them. But I remember that, this is back
when it was Twitter, that that got more tweets
by far than Justin Bieber's new album. And if
you can beat or outpace Justin Bieber, he was
huge at that time. And I'm like, he's doing something
that's meaningful. And of course, this is a simple
gesture, but it's a gesture of humility. And
I think the more, and that is who I think St.
Francis embodies, is that humility. So the more
that this Pope, Pope Leo, can embody that and
truly model that, demonstrate that, how do we
bring humility into the public square? How do
we bring humility into dialogue with people we
have differences with? humility in the home humility
in our schools my gosh if i hear about another
you know violent act in our schools you just
wanted to like tear i don't have much hair left
but i feel like tearing it out um how do we bring
humility into these spaces that's that i think
would be a wonderful way to live into that that
model of francis yeah well where that question
came from for me is i mean you the the church
we're all speaking as americans i mean the american
catholic church is just so deeply wounded it
just feels like scandal after scandal and and
then now we have this pope from chicago unfortunately
a white socks fan but from chicago that's scandalous
and it sounds but but it it did just make me
wonder like is there is there potentially a unique
role um For, yes, increased interest in perhaps
the faith that many have abandoned, faith of
their youth that has been abandoned. But then
is there a unique role here for Pope Leo to play?
Because he's in touch with what has happened
in this country, perhaps on a deeper level than
others. Any final thoughts on that? I have one
quick thought, if I may, Jim. When he came out
on the Logia and he talked about Pope Francis
and he mentioned Francis's vision of church as
an open door in a field hospital, I think to
your point, Stephen, I'm curious how Leo will...
to lead the Church into that vision more, particularly
of the field hospital, because there is still
a lot of healing that needs to happen within
the Catholic Church. How will he go about doing
that? I don't know, but I hope he moves in that
trajectory. Yeah. Any thoughts, Father Jim? I
think that... So one of the things, again, with
the wokeness comments and liberals embracing
him or whatever it is, in 2012, again, he kind
of came out against the LGBT community as being
something that was problematic and same -sex
marriages with children being problematic. Now,
that was 2012, again, 13 years ago. he seems
to have had some kind of growth, change of opinion,
realization, what's happening, which is, that's
important to note. You know, again, there are
some who are basically just focusing in on that
and saying that this is who he is, when, again,
we can never be defined by one comment, by one
episode, by one age, by one, you know, event
or whatever it is in our lives. We are the...
multitude of constant impacts upon who and what
we are as human beings. And I think that for
him to be able to speak in many ways with a history
that he brings with him, again, this whole idea
about making him a holy person in a bubble is
not going to do anybody any benefit whatsoever.
There is, again, something that he's moving into
the papal apartments. Again, he came out in the
regalia. It's kind of like Pope Francis lived
in the guest house, which was busy and filled
with people and all kinds of things like that.
You wonder, did he ever get any rest? These kinds
of things like that. But can you, in our small
American mindset, We only want to see people
in this way. And the fact that Leo is moving
in this direction, but still a missionary bishop,
somebody who is conscious of the world's issues,
who embraced a pope, who took on an understanding
of new things. And this is the thing. We have
such a limited view of how God works and how
God operates. And I think that the surprise of
Pope Leo is going to force us to expand that
limited view. And let's see where that goes.
Yeah, well, that leads nicely here into, how
about some prediction time? And we've hit on
some of this already, but, you know. Saints over
giants by 14. Tell me the future. In what ways
do you think Pope Leo will continue on the path
of Pope Francis? And then perhaps in what ways
do you think he may deviate or build upon it?
Father Jim, let's start with you. So again, as
Matt was saying at the very beginning, it's so
early to kind of get to this point. And the thing
that I was just going to say that was coming
to my mind, when they said Robert Prevost, I
was sure that people had little books and they
were, Prevost, Prevost, who's that? Who is that?
So there's so much that needs to be, so much
homework that needs to be done to understand
this man and who he is and what he represents.
represents, that it kind of, I think that it
oversteps to go prediction -wise in a large way.
But again, he was only a cardinal for two years.
And so that's the thing. He wasn't an operatic,
he wasn't a bureaucrat, you know, who was doing
this job for a long time. So only two years into
this upper echelon of people who choose popes,
and he gets chosen pope. So I think in some ways
it's surprise. You know, I like to say God is
a God of surprises, and this is a surprise. Now,
is Pope Leo going to be able to surprise us,
you know, as he begins to take on this responsibility,
burden, joy of what it means, you know, to be
this Pontifex Maximus, you know, this bridge?
And will that, you know, it would be wonderful
to have a church. Francis. Was it Pope of surprises?
And again, sometimes surprises are kind of just
left hanging on the line and nothing else happened
to them. But may Pope Leo be able to kind of
move us into surprises that really begin to impact
how we've understood this faith, both erroneously
and appropriately, you know, for so many centuries
and whatever it is, you know, to lead us into
something more. Matt, predictions, hopes? Um,
you know, I was thinking about, um, and I think
this is indicative of like how social media has
shaped how we relate to each other because like
this, no one even knows who this guy is, but
because I can find something out about him on
the internet that his profile, like, you know,
now I know him, right? He said this in 2012.
He said that in 2018. He went over there in 2015.
He received this honor in 2018. And then somehow,
because this is a part of his matrix profile,
I now know this guy is the most asinine thing
in the world. But as we operate this way on a
daily basis through social media. We apply this
to all of our events, and in this case, you know,
a significant world event with the election of
a pope. So that being said, I'm off my soapbox.
I think that, I already said it, I think, that
I think he's going to lean into the field hospital
and open door image that Francis gave us for
the church. I don't know how it's going to happen,
but... That seemed to be important to him when
he was on the loggia and talking about Pope Francis
and what he meant to him, meaning Leo. I think,
again, there's so much healing that needs to
happen. It's no secret. I still think this ratio
is true, that for every one person that comes
into the Catholic Church, six leave. I mean,
there's just a continual hemorrhage of Catholics.
Part of the reason for that hemorrhage, yes,
is a sense of spiritual unfulfillment. Yes, a
sense of a lack of belonging and connectivity
with a community of believers. But I would also
add that there's a lot of woundedness that's
happened in the church for a number of reasons,
and that still hasn't been addressed on the level
it should, which is that local level. You know,
we believe in subsidiarity in the church. If
there's a local issue, it should be handled by
local people. And until we get more serious about
that, and that is a Catholic social teaching
principle, by the way, until we get more serious
about that, I don't think we can get the kind
of healing that we hope to have as this field
hospital slash church. Any final words as we
conclude? Father Jim? When we're talking about
why are people leaving beyond fulfillment and
things like that, I think to add into that is
also finding out why people are staying and that
they know why they're staying. Again, if they're
staying just to get into heaven, that's not really
a reason to stay. And again, they're staying
because just going through the motions, that's
not a reason to stay. So this is where we have
this sense in which... People are looking for
identity in such a narrow way, you know, and
this is where, because I need to know this is
what makes me different than a Methodist, Episcopalian,
a Presbyterian, whatever it is. But you need
more than that. You need more than that. And
so to be, again, this understanding of myself
and what faith does for me and what it means
for me. Yeah, I hope that this begins to come
out from Poblio in this way. And more people
should be interested in knowing who this man
is and what he represents. But again, it's to
use wisdom, because that's what God has given
us in a brain, to discern what is right and what
is the madness of the masses, trying to create
something just to create it, I think. yeah well
that makes me think of what matt said earlier
i mean one interesting thing about this papal
election is that and i wonder if this is underlying
some of this is that there is even if it's a
subconscious realization there is something so
sacred about it. And then I think the invitation
Matt laid out earlier is so important. It's like,
yeah, the sacred is here and now. It's in the
Mass. It's through the Eucharist. The Word is
alive and active in our midst. Just go outside.
So this invitation of, yeah, that was really
cool. A Pope from Chicago. There's no denying
that. However, like can I open my eyes can I
open my senses to the word that's inviting me
in here and now Matt any concluding thoughts
yeah it kind of reminds me of Was the American
poet T .S. Eliot said we had the I might get
this wrong, but I think he said we had the event,
but we missed the experience kind of a thing.
I don't want this to be just another event, you
know, another kind of odd and novel thing that
then gets tucked away and forgotten. And we move
about our business and that's going to depend
largely on. Leo's ability to, and desire to do
what Jim was talking about, which is make these
intentional connections with all, with all people,
not just Catholics, the connections to, um, where
he becomes sort of a, uh, an example of, of God
and his love for us, his humility, God's, God's
humility, you know, um, thinking of Iliadilio
here and, um, and how And how there's freedom
in that and there's hope in that and there's
fulfillment in that. And this world needs that
example of humility. So I think, you know, I
got a lot of hope, but I'm a hopeless romantic,
too. And that's what attracted me to you, Matt,
in the first place. Nothing wrong with Hopeless
Romantics. This has been great, guys. The notebook.
Anyway. We had to bring it back to the notebook
somehow. Always the notebook. Always the notebook.
The most spiritually centered movie. If we ever
do this again, let's play a game. We'll start
it. We'll talk about it. But it's going to be
six degrees from the notebook. We're going to
see how we can do this. That's the name of the
podcast that you two are going to do together.
Oh, that is hilarious. Six Degrees from the Notebook.
Well, thank you both for coming on Off the Page.
This was a lot of fun. Once again, that was Father
Jim Saback and Deacon Matt Halbach. I've linked
to any additional resources in the show notes
of this episode, including Father Jim's podcast
in Breaking of the Word, published on every Monday
morning through Franciscan Media. I hope you've
enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. And
I invite you to consider what Matt said in this
episode, bringing the same excitement that we
witnessed during the Pope's election into our
own daily walks of faith. It's true, it's not
every day that the College of Cardinals elects
a new pope, but there are sacred encounters everywhere.
And as both him and Father Jim mentioned, the
Holy Spirit is always at work in us and through
us and with us. Are we aware of this movement
of divine love right here and right now? This
is Stephen Copeland signing off. Peace and all
good. the desert with me