WEBVTT

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Welcome to Off the Page, it's great to be with

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you. So it's been about a week since Robert Francis

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Prevost was elected Bishop of Rome and took the

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name Pope Leo XIV. In this special episode, we

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have a discussion with Father Jim Saback and

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Deacon Matthew Halbach about Pope Leo and the

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significance of this historic moment in the church

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and in the world. This conversation was a lot

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of fun. I absolutely loved their energy and how

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they fed off one another, and I'd love to bring

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them back if they're open to it for perhaps future

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roundtables about current events and major happenings

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within the church. Before we dive in, a brief

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introduction to Jim and Matt. Father Jim Saback

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is a Franciscan friar of Our Lady of Guadalupe

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province and currently serves as director of

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divine worship for the Diocese of Raleigh in

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North Carolina. He's also the Director of Religion

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at the Franciscan School in Raleigh. Father Jim

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earned his Bachelor of Arts, Master of Arts,

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and Doctor of Philosophy degrees from the Catholic

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University of America in Washington, DC. Father

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Jim has taught at Siena College, the Catholic

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University of America. the Franciscan School

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of Theology, and Providence College. Perhaps

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you're familiar, but Father Jim also has his

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own podcast with Franciscan Media. It's called

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The Inbreaking of the Word. It's published on

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every Monday morning, and he essentially dissects

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the Sunday readings from Mass and helps us to

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take the Word with us into our weeks. You can

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listen to that podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

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YouTube, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

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On to Deacon Matt. Matt Halbach is the president

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of Franciscan Media. He was ordained in 2018

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for the Diocese of Des Moines, Iowa. He is the

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director of deacon formation for the diocese

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and a national author and speaker on the topics

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of mercy, accompaniment, evangelization, and

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catechesis. He earned his PhD in catechetics

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from the Catholic University of America in 2014

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and is a reviewer for the International Journal

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of Evangelization and Catechesis. Matt is a husband

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and he is also a father of six children. So without

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further ado, here is Father Jim and Deacon Matt.

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Enjoy. All right, Father Jim and Deacon Matt,

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let's dive right in here. So it's been almost

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a week since this historic moment. What is your

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reaction and what stands out to you from a Franciscan

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perspective about this pope? Father Jim, how

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about we start with you? I think, first and foremost,

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the entire unexpected appearance of him on the

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balcony of St. Peter's Basilica. His name was

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mentioned, but way, way, way down the list. And

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I guess in many ways, it's surprising that he

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did show up when he did and that it was him.

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But it's also... again, affirming that public

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opinion and our digital age and whatever it is,

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knows nothing about us. And what was being posted

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and held up as being, you know, the likely candidates

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or the front runners or whatever it was, it just

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turned out to be nothing. And so if there were

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any bets that were being placed in whatever kind

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of fan duel, you know, for Popes, again, I don't

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know how many people lost money on this or whatever

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it was, but it was amazing. It was amazing to

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see this. person of very little renown kind of

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step out now in this position as Holy Father,

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as Pope. What about being a Franciscan friar,

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Father Jim? What stood out to you about him coming

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right after Pope Francis, who's been described

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as someone with a Franciscan heart? What was

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your reaction there from a Franciscan point of

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view? Well, again, I guess I can say that we...

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Franciscans and Augustinians, we were formed

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at the same time in history, about the 13th century,

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what have you. So we do come from a type of movement

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that was trying to find its way through a church

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that was kind of off balance or having lost its

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own way as to what it was supposed to represent

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in the world, getting too wrapped up with...

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many worldly issues that were beyond perhaps

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what we should be thinking about and looking

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at as people of faith. So to have someone who

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was mendicant -ish, because the Augustines are

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not necessarily considered part of the mendicant

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movement in one way, but mendicant -ish, again,

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take on this mantle, another religious order.

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you know, a bishop taking on this mantle was

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what was very interesting, again, that we've

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gone twice in that direction, which we haven't

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in a very, very long time. And so it's always

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interesting that in the Eastern Orthodox Church,

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Bishops usually come from the monastic communities,

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not necessarily from the parochial communities.

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So it's an interesting kind of nod, if that was

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even thought about in some ways, to that kind

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of practice in the East by choosing another religious

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community member within that. Just again, but

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just to say, you know, the thing with Pope Francis,

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he came out in the white cassock, appears in

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the evening, says good evening, buona sera to

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everybody. And Leo comes out in the papal regalia.

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And nothing has been said about that kind of

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interesting distinction. But that was, at the

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beginning of Francis's pontificate, so much.

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Look at him. Look at him. He's just in the white.

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He just came out there. He said good evening

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to everybody and then launched into his whatever,

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whatever, whatever. So there was a bit of a difference.

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What does it mean? Where are we going with this?

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Still remains to be seen within that. But I think

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it's important to kind of acknowledge that, first

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and foremost. where he goes as a person formed

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within this mendicant orbit will be interesting

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to see. An ancient order within the church, not

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like those upstart Jesuits who were formed in

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the 16th century. Way back when. Yeah, that's

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really interesting. Deacon Matt, what are your

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thoughts? Just picking up where Jim sort of began,

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I wonder how many people lost money on this one.

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It was really funny that there were actually

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bets. You could actually go on apps and do Pope

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betting. I don't know if that's been done before.

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Something else that really blew my mind was I'm

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a Pat McAfee fan who's a sports podcaster for

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ESPN and also College Sports Day and everything,

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but Game Day. Go Colts. Yeah, and former Colts

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kicker. And he's covering. the the election and

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i'm like what like they break to it and the pope

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like they're sitting there and he's getting all

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worked up like mcafee does and he's jumping up

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and down and they're all guessing like who it

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might be and then the guy comes out and they're

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all on their phones trying to figure out who

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this guy is and they I hate saying it. Sorry,

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Pat McAfee, but nobody on that show knew anything

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about Catholicism or anything about the Pope

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or papal elections. But it was so funny to watch

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it. And it was interesting to see. Catholicism,

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which is so countercultural oftentimes and so

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hidden within mainstream culture to be kind of

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front and center. So that like to be on the Pat

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McAfee show, the covering the Pope coming out

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on the Logia was the most bizarre, bizarre thing

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I've ever seen in my life. So that's where I

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want to start. I think it's been a bizarre experience.

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It's been very exciting. I want to say too that.

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Given the very little that Leo has said about

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his agenda, he has talked a little bit about

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Catholic social teaching, and he also makes a

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strong connection with Vatican II, as did our

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previous pope, and wanting to carry forward that

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council and all of its teaching. And I think

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specifically, I'll be interested to see how he

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does that, and how does he... how does he make

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Catholic social teaching relevant for this generation

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and next generations of Catholics? And how does

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he make that teaching resonate? And how does

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he do it in a way that invites everybody and

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who's not like an insider to understand the beauty

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and the dignity of Catholic social teaching and

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how it's so important in our world today? I'm

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very interested to see how that all plays out.

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I also think, like Jim mentioned, kind of, who

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is this guy? Yes, he's an American, but he also

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has a Peruvian citizen status. But I love the

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idea. And I think this was totally a Holy Spirit

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thing, to be honest with you, because in a way,

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he's kind of representing the Americas. And I

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think that's a genius move, because there's been

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a lot of... historically and recently, a lot

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of kind of like a pipeline of evangelization

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and theology, particularly pastoral theology

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coming from Latin America. Just Pope Francis

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really helped to usher that in with like accompaniment.

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And even we've been talking in the church for

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a long time, like back with John Paul II about

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new evangelization, well, all of that speak began

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with the bishops in Latin America. And so I think

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we're just kind of continuing to see that pipeline

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here, and now we've got someone who's sort of

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straddling North and Central and South America

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with his dual citizenship, and I'm just really

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excited to see where all this goes. Yeah, you

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mentioned Catholic social teaching, and I've

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seen a number of articles kind of connecting

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Leo, the name he chose, to Catholic social teaching.

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Father Jim, did you have any thoughts on that?

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That seems to be a a big theme that has emerged

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in this first week of his papacy. Well, yeah.

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Well, I guess choosing, I mean, when they announced

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Leo, I was like, Leo, God, because you went from

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Johns and Paul's, Johns and Paul's, you had a

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Benedict shoved in there for a little bit. And

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then you go to a Francis, you know, you get Francis

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with this whole idea where nobody else has been

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named that. So I've got no legacy to live up

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to. So I can do whatever I want. I think that's

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what Francis did. But when you take a name that's

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been used before, yes, who are you carrying along

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with you? And there's been 13 of them before

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him. And so it is Leo XIII, again, who was also

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the initiator of the Catholic University of America,

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my alma mater. Alma mater. Yes, I'm sorry. By

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the way. I was a graduate and a graduate. Matt

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was a graduate. Matt and I both have a legacy

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at Catholic University. And we have Leo XIII

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to add to. Oh, thank for that. But I think that

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within that also, there were a lot of Leos, you

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know, and it's like, and the first thing that

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came to my mind when I heard Leo was not Leo

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XIII. It was Leo X, basically, who was the warrior

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bishop, warrior pope. He wasn't a Borgia, Domenici.

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He was a Domenici pope for that powerful family.

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You know, he was instrumental in... building

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St. Peter's Basilica. He is the one who instigated,

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in many ways, the Protestant Reformation. Named

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after this joker? But then there's also Leo I,

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who stood up to Attila the Hun and stopped Attila

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from sacking the city of Rome. But then there's

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Leo III, who basically crowned Charlemagne Holy

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Roman Emperor, much to the anger and the angst

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of the Holy Roman Emperors in Constantinople,

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thereby moving forward the split between the

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two churches. He was a joke. He was an idiot.

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So the thing is, we have this guy with all of

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these kinds of legacies attached to this name.

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But now looking at Leo XIII, you know, and the

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last aristocrat is always, again, nobody's talked

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to, as Matt was saying, we had the sporting network

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trying to announce all of this and whatever it

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is. Nobody understands who any of these people

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are. But you look at Leo XIII, the last aristocrat,

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the last aristocrat to be raised to the papal

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throne, but somebody who was conscious of working

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class people. But also, again, the sense in which

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not to be afraid of the modern world, which is

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why that encyclical, Rerum Novarum, begins with

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the topic of new things. And this is where Pius

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IX, his predecessor, hated the modern world.

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It made sure that we created a citadel around

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ourselves as faithful people to keep out the

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modern world. Leo XIII was not that way. engagement

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with the world, this engagement with modernity,

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this engagement with the basic needs of human

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beings. One hopes, again, Francis gave us a way

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to that with looking at the poor. I'm wondering,

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though, there's also all the other people whose

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lives are not happy, even though we think they

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are because they have bank accounts. So is this

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going to be addressing this more that we need

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to look at as a church. It remains to be seen,

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but it is rather exciting, you know, to kind

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of think about it in this way. Yeah. Matt, as

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you listen, do you have anything to add there?

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Yeah, I do. First of all, Jim was, when I was

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at Catholic U, he was a teaching assistant and

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he taught teaching and religious education. And

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he was brutal. He was brutal. He was brutal.

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Everyone was afraid of him. And he just ruled

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with an iron rod. No, I'm kidding. He was terrific.

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But just picking up really quick, Jimmy said

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a lot of wonderful things and insightful things.

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The only thing I have to add is, and it was kind

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of connected to my comment about how will this

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pope carry forward the teachings of Vatican II.

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So he, you know, going back to Leo XIII, so we

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have him. in the, in the sort of swell of the

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beginnings of, of scripture renewal in the Catholic

00:14:14.730 --> 00:14:17.210
church too. And he writes this great encyclical,

00:14:17.210 --> 00:14:21.750
and so he's caught that wave and it kind of takes

00:14:21.750 --> 00:14:24.029
into greater consideration more of historical

00:14:24.029 --> 00:14:26.769
critical methodology and scripture and so forth.

00:14:26.830 --> 00:14:30.169
And that was a big move because up until the

00:14:30.169 --> 00:14:34.399
late 19th century, It was sort of like age -old

00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:37.820
beliefs about the authority of Scripture and

00:14:37.820 --> 00:14:40.580
the authoring of Scripture and dating of Scripture

00:14:40.580 --> 00:14:42.659
and all of this. And then, of course, modern...

00:14:43.870 --> 00:14:45.529
historical critical methods were challenging

00:14:45.529 --> 00:14:48.289
all that. And Leo jumps into it and doesn't try

00:14:48.289 --> 00:14:51.190
to squash it. He tries to direct it and guide

00:14:51.190 --> 00:14:53.570
it. But it's this idea, again, that played out

00:14:53.570 --> 00:14:56.070
at Vatican II of, you know, let's go back to

00:14:56.070 --> 00:14:58.389
the sources and let's try to bring those sources

00:14:58.389 --> 00:15:00.370
forward. You know, what's that updating that

00:15:00.370 --> 00:15:02.570
needs to happen? That was a big word at the council,

00:15:02.730 --> 00:15:05.250
adjournamento. What's that updating? He was a

00:15:05.250 --> 00:15:08.169
product and sort of shepherd of the updating

00:15:08.169 --> 00:15:10.730
of the modern scriptural renewal in the Catholic

00:15:10.730 --> 00:15:13.919
Church. Also with Rerum Novarum, I think that's

00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:17.440
another idea of retrieving. age -old Catholic

00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:21.299
teaching on morality and social mores and so

00:15:21.299 --> 00:15:25.139
forth, and how to bring that forward in ways

00:15:25.139 --> 00:15:27.899
that are relevant for what's going on and what's

00:15:27.899 --> 00:15:32.159
facing society today and challenging human dignity.

00:15:32.379 --> 00:15:34.919
So again, I'm interested to see how he becomes

00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:37.899
this Vatican II pope who's going back to the

00:15:37.899 --> 00:15:40.480
sources and bringing them forward and making

00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:44.029
them relevant for today. One thing we have yet

00:15:44.029 --> 00:15:46.529
to hit on, well, Matt, you hit on it a little

00:15:46.529 --> 00:15:48.909
bit being this Pope who's from the Americas,

00:15:48.909 --> 00:15:52.070
but he has been described as an American Pope.

00:15:52.309 --> 00:15:54.889
But Father Jim, you've mentioned that perhaps

00:15:54.889 --> 00:15:57.250
a more accurate description would be a missionary

00:15:57.250 --> 00:16:01.090
Pope. So can you explain why this is an important

00:16:01.090 --> 00:16:04.769
distinction? And then what can we learn in our

00:16:04.769 --> 00:16:08.289
own walks of faith about his journey to the papacy?

00:16:08.370 --> 00:16:10.649
Because it's a very interesting journey he's

00:16:10.649 --> 00:16:17.440
been on. Exactly. I think that there's a variety

00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:23.960
of levels within that. And sometimes, is it embarrassing

00:16:23.960 --> 00:16:27.860
to be American? Always. But how do you navigate

00:16:27.860 --> 00:16:31.580
through all of this? Because this whole idea,

00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:33.559
it's the American pope, it's the American pope.

00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:36.200
You know, there was a photograph that was taken

00:16:36.200 --> 00:16:39.710
before the conclave began. of the American popes.

00:16:39.710 --> 00:16:42.830
He was not in that picture. Why? Because he was

00:16:42.830 --> 00:16:46.309
a pope in Peru. And so he may be an American,

00:16:46.549 --> 00:16:50.750
but he is not an American pope. So he's not a

00:16:50.750 --> 00:16:53.629
pope from the United States. And that has yet

00:16:53.629 --> 00:16:56.830
to kind of, we're not thinking about that. But

00:16:56.830 --> 00:16:58.889
it's how we have to think in this way. He was

00:16:58.889 --> 00:17:03.289
a missionary bishop. He was not an American bishop.

00:17:04.619 --> 00:17:07.299
As I know from my own community, what has happened

00:17:07.299 --> 00:17:09.759
many times is that when we went out into the

00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:13.720
missionary areas, and guys who were missionaries

00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:16.400
were then raised to the episcopacy and became

00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:19.359
bishops in all of those larger dioceses, the

00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:22.180
dioceses that were established. For the Franciscans,

00:17:22.180 --> 00:17:26.779
it was in Colombia and in Brazil, and became

00:17:26.779 --> 00:17:29.980
bishops in those dioceses. What happened after

00:17:29.980 --> 00:17:34.359
a time is that, yes, you are connected. but know

00:17:34.359 --> 00:17:37.859
that connection begins to transition in some

00:17:37.859 --> 00:17:40.440
ways. It begins to transform. And many of them

00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:43.480
became citizens of those countries that they

00:17:43.480 --> 00:17:47.410
were bishop of only because... It's right. It's

00:17:47.410 --> 00:17:50.549
what needs to happen. You need to know the people

00:17:50.549 --> 00:17:53.910
whom you are called to guide and to nurture and

00:17:53.910 --> 00:17:56.910
to lead. And you can't do that from a part -time

00:17:56.910 --> 00:17:59.250
kind of thing. Well, I'm going back to Miami

00:17:59.250 --> 00:18:01.569
to sit on the beach, everybody. I'll see you

00:18:01.569 --> 00:18:03.250
in three weeks or a month or whatever it is.

00:18:03.369 --> 00:18:06.190
You need to do that. And this is what, you know,

00:18:06.190 --> 00:18:10.430
Pope Leo. did, you know, in that diocese in Peru.

00:18:11.250 --> 00:18:13.190
Chiclayo, I think it was, is its name. It was

00:18:13.190 --> 00:18:15.410
the fourth, it's the fourth largest city in Peru,

00:18:15.569 --> 00:18:19.329
but one of the more poor diocese. And so the

00:18:19.329 --> 00:18:22.309
sense in which, yes, he's a White Sox fan. Yes,

00:18:22.349 --> 00:18:25.470
he's a Bears fan. Yes, he eats hot dogs or whatever

00:18:25.470 --> 00:18:28.650
they eat in Chicago. I have no idea. But no,

00:18:29.930 --> 00:18:34.309
people relax, relax. I mean, he isn't going to

00:18:34.309 --> 00:18:38.460
support. American ways in the way that we understand

00:18:38.460 --> 00:18:41.180
American ways as people who don't leave the country

00:18:41.180 --> 00:18:46.140
enough, maybe. And so this is the thing. So being

00:18:46.140 --> 00:18:49.720
a missionary pope, even, gives a very different

00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:54.460
sort of dynamic. Again, Pope Francis was Argentinian.

00:18:55.069 --> 00:18:57.490
He was Bishop of Buenos Aires, the largest city,

00:18:57.730 --> 00:19:00.569
the fashion city, the city that was modeled in

00:19:00.569 --> 00:19:03.609
some ways on London, you know, and things like

00:19:03.609 --> 00:19:06.890
that. He was a cosmopolitan bishop and he was

00:19:06.890 --> 00:19:10.609
a bishop who was Argentinian taking on a role

00:19:10.609 --> 00:19:13.990
in the episcopacy there. This is very different

00:19:13.990 --> 00:19:17.190
for Poblio. He was an American. He is an American,

00:19:17.289 --> 00:19:20.309
but now he is also a Peruvian and picking up

00:19:20.309 --> 00:19:23.819
this idea about being somebody who brings. the

00:19:23.819 --> 00:19:27.359
gospel to a place that doesn't necessarily have

00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:30.380
it in a way that may be beneficial for the area,

00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:33.099
for the people. So that whole kind of, what is

00:19:33.099 --> 00:19:35.700
he bringing us? What is he going to bring us

00:19:35.700 --> 00:19:38.720
as a missionary, you know, Pope, you know, Bishop

00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:41.700
Pope now? That's kind of exciting, too, to see

00:19:41.700 --> 00:19:44.740
what happens. Absolutely. Matt, what do you have

00:19:44.740 --> 00:19:47.119
to add there? Yeah, again, I love everything

00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:49.380
you're saying, Father Jim, and I have very little

00:19:49.380 --> 00:19:52.220
to add other than, and I'm saying that I don't

00:19:52.220 --> 00:19:54.400
have to try to ingratiate and get good grades.

00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:56.700
I'm really saying that now, you know, so many

00:19:56.700 --> 00:19:58.500
years removed from Catholic. You're my favorite.

00:19:58.539 --> 00:20:03.440
You're always my favorite. Okay. So I think the

00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:06.480
only thing I would add is, you know, let's do

00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:08.960
a juxtaposition. So I'm a deacon in my parish.

00:20:09.180 --> 00:20:12.099
I'd say it's fairly a middle to upper class parish.

00:20:12.940 --> 00:20:17.000
When I preach and when I minister, I'm not preaching

00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:20.880
a message about... to an audience or to a congregation

00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:23.660
that is concerned about where it's going to find

00:20:23.660 --> 00:20:26.619
its next meal or where it's going to get clean

00:20:26.619 --> 00:20:29.359
water or where it's going to take shelter when

00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:32.500
the harsh Iowa winter comes. And I think the

00:20:32.500 --> 00:20:35.140
fact that this Pope, Pope Leo, has spent his

00:20:35.140 --> 00:20:38.339
time as a missionary priest and bishop means

00:20:38.339 --> 00:20:41.880
that his pastoral, his theological approach and

00:20:41.880 --> 00:20:43.859
therefore his preaching and therefore his teaching,

00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:46.799
I think, is going to be very much motivated by...

00:20:47.180 --> 00:20:52.039
his pastoral care experience, and we're going

00:20:52.039 --> 00:20:55.859
to see very clear connections between the Word

00:20:55.859 --> 00:20:59.119
of God, theology and Catholic teaching, and the

00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:02.140
very basics of human life and human dignity.

00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:04.779
And I think that's a great thing, because the

00:21:04.779 --> 00:21:07.299
more we can make Catholic teaching and theology

00:21:07.299 --> 00:21:11.440
practical, the more impact it's going to have.

00:21:11.579 --> 00:21:13.319
And in the end, that's what the Church and I

00:21:13.319 --> 00:21:15.559
think the Pope would want is positive impact.

00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:18.700
And that's where, again, taking Leo XIII, this

00:21:18.700 --> 00:21:20.680
whole idea of these working class people, you

00:21:20.680 --> 00:21:23.160
know, and it wasn't, again, if you look at Rerum

00:21:23.160 --> 00:21:25.660
Novarum, he isn't talking about Catholic working

00:21:25.660 --> 00:21:28.039
class people. It was the whole working class

00:21:28.039 --> 00:21:31.140
and the issue with them, which also, again, there

00:21:31.140 --> 00:21:35.480
were other dynamics attempting to address the

00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:37.539
working class people at the time that Leo XIII

00:21:37.539 --> 00:21:41.200
was living. And for the church to have said nothing

00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:44.660
in response to that would have been a terrible

00:21:44.660 --> 00:21:48.259
injustice to these people and a very large wrong

00:21:48.259 --> 00:21:51.019
upon us. The question is always, again, Matt

00:21:51.019 --> 00:21:53.259
and I, we've talked about this a lot. What is

00:21:53.259 --> 00:21:55.440
it that we are actually bringing to this world,

00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:58.180
you know, to kind of to dialogue with it? And

00:21:58.180 --> 00:22:00.259
that's not just a midlife crisis either. We're

00:22:00.259 --> 00:22:05.039
not anywhere near midlife, Matt. So that's the

00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:07.220
thing. So that's the thing. It's like, how do

00:22:07.220 --> 00:22:09.319
we speak? Because that's, again, what Vatican

00:22:09.319 --> 00:22:13.019
II said we have to do. Speak to the modern world.

00:22:13.220 --> 00:22:15.779
Again, the hopes and dreams, the challenges and

00:22:15.779 --> 00:22:18.660
victories that all that that's going to hold

00:22:18.660 --> 00:22:21.029
God. him at spaz business this is what we and

00:22:21.029 --> 00:22:25.150
have we lost a sense of that you know in thinking

00:22:25.150 --> 00:22:28.390
that faith gets me into heaven and that's about

00:22:28.390 --> 00:22:31.109
it and it could be a pastime that i pursue in

00:22:31.109 --> 00:22:33.130
the hope that when i die i'll get into pearly

00:22:33.130 --> 00:22:35.430
gates and a happy little place for myself that's

00:22:35.430 --> 00:22:37.250
that's never the that was never the gospel that

00:22:37.250 --> 00:22:40.710
wasn't the gospel asks us to do ever yeah dude

00:22:40.710 --> 00:22:43.670
you both have hit on it do either of you have

00:22:43.670 --> 00:22:47.630
any thoughts on i've seen a couple articles connecting

00:22:48.750 --> 00:22:51.809
Pope Leo XIII in the Industrial Revolution to

00:22:51.809 --> 00:22:55.009
now Pope Leo XIV and everything that's happening

00:22:55.009 --> 00:22:57.970
with AI in this technological revolution. So

00:22:57.970 --> 00:23:01.410
what do you anticipate in the years ahead and

00:23:01.410 --> 00:23:05.700
how do you think him bringing... wisdom of the

00:23:05.700 --> 00:23:07.559
past and Catholic social teaching, all these

00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:08.980
different things you all have been hitting on.

00:23:09.140 --> 00:23:11.319
How is he going to meet that head on, do you

00:23:11.319 --> 00:23:13.319
foresee? I mean, I don't think either of us can

00:23:13.319 --> 00:23:16.500
say how it's going to happen, but to the point

00:23:16.500 --> 00:23:18.859
about AI, he did bring that up in his first meeting

00:23:18.859 --> 00:23:21.740
with the Cardinals post -election and post his

00:23:21.740 --> 00:23:24.339
first mass as Pope. So this was kind of their

00:23:24.339 --> 00:23:26.799
first let's get down to business meeting, and

00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:30.380
AI came up as something that concerns him, specifically

00:23:30.380 --> 00:23:35.059
because it challenges it threatens the dignity

00:23:35.059 --> 00:23:39.819
of human work. And if machines, if you will,

00:23:39.900 --> 00:23:43.059
this sounds so Orwellian or Asimov or something,

00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:46.339
robots are taking over. But in a way, we're seeing

00:23:46.339 --> 00:23:49.480
that happen. And there's something very wonderful

00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:53.700
about that and beautiful about that. But as Leo

00:23:53.700 --> 00:23:56.339
is suggesting, there's also something very threatening

00:23:56.339 --> 00:24:00.990
about that. And so what... I think what he will

00:24:00.990 --> 00:24:04.089
try to do is just, again, make sure that front

00:24:04.089 --> 00:24:06.210
and center with any debates or considerations

00:24:06.210 --> 00:24:09.769
about AI is always the dignity of the human person.

00:24:09.829 --> 00:24:14.849
And there's very little else that brings dignity

00:24:14.849 --> 00:24:19.130
to human being and living more so than work.

00:24:19.210 --> 00:24:21.029
There are other things, but like worship, for

00:24:21.029 --> 00:24:25.230
example, and human love. But beyond that, humans

00:24:25.230 --> 00:24:29.880
are... created to work too. You know, homo faber,

00:24:29.940 --> 00:24:32.420
we're created to make things and create things.

00:24:32.539 --> 00:24:34.420
We're made in God's image and likeness, and he's

00:24:34.420 --> 00:24:36.920
a creator. And if we're not able to do those

00:24:36.920 --> 00:24:40.339
kinds of things anymore, or there are now less

00:24:40.339 --> 00:24:43.160
opportunities to do that, or how we do it is

00:24:43.160 --> 00:24:47.460
so, what's the word I'm looking for? Our agency

00:24:47.460 --> 00:24:50.200
as human beings is so impaired. That's going

00:24:50.200 --> 00:24:52.539
to have dramatic effects on what it means to

00:24:52.539 --> 00:24:55.380
be a human being one, two, three generations

00:24:55.380 --> 00:24:58.289
from now. So that's what he's trying to raise

00:24:58.289 --> 00:25:28.250
the bell on. People are trying to take a shortcut

00:25:28.250 --> 00:25:31.009
because they know that having to compose something

00:25:31.009 --> 00:25:33.390
in whatever career they're in is going to get

00:25:33.390 --> 00:25:35.910
them ahead. And they want either the money or

00:25:35.910 --> 00:25:39.009
the title or the prestige in a cheap way. And

00:25:39.009 --> 00:25:43.349
again, that demeans our human dignity. But because

00:25:43.349 --> 00:25:45.930
we're living in a world that says get what you

00:25:45.930 --> 00:25:48.890
can when you can in some ways, we can reconcile

00:25:48.890 --> 00:25:53.150
that somehow in a very bad and troubling way

00:25:53.150 --> 00:25:55.769
within that. The other half of it is, again,

00:25:56.140 --> 00:25:58.240
What Rerum Novarum, like again, what Matt was

00:25:58.240 --> 00:26:00.579
talking about perfectly, about the idea of work

00:26:00.579 --> 00:26:03.920
and of labor, what Rerum Novarum says very beautifully,

00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:07.079
and why Leo XIII wanted to make sure that we

00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:09.519
understood this, is that whenever we create,

00:26:09.799 --> 00:26:13.059
a part of us is shared into what it is that we

00:26:13.059 --> 00:26:15.940
create. A part of us goes into what is it that

00:26:15.940 --> 00:26:18.880
we create. And so we extend, you know, ourself

00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:22.160
into this creation. through which God speaks

00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:24.319
to us. Again, the sacramental principle. God

00:26:24.319 --> 00:26:27.559
speaks to us through creation, and we respond

00:26:27.559 --> 00:26:31.099
by what it is that we create and we do to that

00:26:31.099 --> 00:26:34.279
speaking within us. all of that is co -opted.

00:26:34.279 --> 00:26:38.119
All of that is destroyed if we're using magical

00:26:38.119 --> 00:26:41.480
things to speak for us. And what kind of voice

00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:44.980
is that? And are we conscious of that? But where

00:26:44.980 --> 00:26:47.720
this comes down to, what's in it for me, the

00:26:47.720 --> 00:26:51.119
withums, as we call it, that's too much where,

00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:55.759
again... Is it only American mindset culture?

00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:58.839
I think more times than not, it is. In other

00:26:58.839 --> 00:27:01.940
cultures, it might not be so brazen. But the

00:27:01.940 --> 00:27:04.259
thing is, within our American culture, at least,

00:27:04.259 --> 00:27:07.319
getting what I need to get is front and foremost

00:27:07.319 --> 00:27:12.119
and using any kind of means. And so to have Pope

00:27:12.119 --> 00:27:16.599
Leo be able to address this in some ways, hopefully,

00:27:16.920 --> 00:27:19.960
it would be a wonderful dream to see what happens.

00:27:20.200 --> 00:27:24.049
The other thing, he's young. Again, he's only,

00:27:24.210 --> 00:27:25.890
and I won't have you add it up, but you probably

00:27:25.890 --> 00:27:29.029
could. He's seven years older than me. And so

00:27:29.029 --> 00:27:33.990
1955, he was born. So that whole thing is he

00:27:33.990 --> 00:27:38.509
may have some knowledge very dimly of the pre

00:27:38.509 --> 00:27:41.670
-Vatican II Church, but he grew up basically

00:27:41.670 --> 00:27:44.609
or came into his own in the post -Vatican II

00:27:44.609 --> 00:27:50.009
Church. Francis did not. So Francis had a stabilized

00:27:50.009 --> 00:27:51.849
beginning within the pre -Vatican II Church.

00:27:52.009 --> 00:27:55.230
Well, that's also something that is really unique,

00:27:55.329 --> 00:27:58.029
because what will that mean for those who come

00:27:58.029 --> 00:28:00.849
in in this generation now to take on these kinds

00:28:00.849 --> 00:28:03.950
of responsibilities? And because he is younger,

00:28:04.150 --> 00:28:07.529
is there a savviness with technology? I remember

00:28:07.529 --> 00:28:11.180
everybody was like when Pope Benedict... It was

00:28:11.180 --> 00:28:13.480
TikTok or Twitter. I don't know what it was,

00:28:13.559 --> 00:28:15.279
a Twitter account. I think it was a Twitter account.

00:28:15.660 --> 00:28:17.180
And everybody was like, the Pope has a Twitter

00:28:17.180 --> 00:28:20.299
account. Oh, my gosh. But he was an old man fiddling

00:28:20.299 --> 00:28:22.039
with a Twitter account. It just looked like one

00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:25.259
of those old people with a Twitter account. But

00:28:25.259 --> 00:28:29.680
now, is there something more to all of this that

00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:33.180
will impact how we... continue to evolve as a

00:28:33.180 --> 00:28:35.920
church. Yeah, well, that leads perfectly into

00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:38.240
another thing I wanted to get both of your thoughts

00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:42.039
on. I mean, in the last several days, and I happen

00:28:42.039 --> 00:28:44.599
to spend too much time on Twitter, unfortunately,

00:28:44.819 --> 00:28:48.740
but there have been many people and groups trying

00:28:48.740 --> 00:28:51.789
to kind of, in a sense, claim this. pope as their

00:28:51.789 --> 00:28:54.690
own um and i was doing it too i was like he's

00:28:54.690 --> 00:28:57.089
a cubs fan he's a cubs fan and even and i think

00:28:57.089 --> 00:28:59.509
i think even uh they put him on the marquee at

00:28:59.509 --> 00:29:01.710
wrigley field and then it came out hours later

00:29:01.710 --> 00:29:04.589
that oh he's a white socks fan in fact there

00:29:04.589 --> 00:29:10.849
we go laying a foundation for the next cubs curse

00:29:10.849 --> 00:29:16.009
again But then this has been happening on a deeper

00:29:16.009 --> 00:29:18.549
level, too. I mean, there have been these dives

00:29:18.549 --> 00:29:20.690
into his own Twitter feed as a cardinal where

00:29:20.690 --> 00:29:22.630
it was kind of revealed that he had been critic

00:29:22.630 --> 00:29:25.009
of the Trump administration. And then people

00:29:25.009 --> 00:29:27.529
on the left, I've seen them proudly kind of saying

00:29:27.529 --> 00:29:29.950
that he's woke. And then people on the right

00:29:29.950 --> 00:29:31.869
cautioning that he's progressive like Francis.

00:29:32.130 --> 00:29:35.230
And so, like, distill this for our listeners.

00:29:35.490 --> 00:29:39.569
Whose pope is he? And maybe a deeper question

00:29:39.569 --> 00:29:43.579
is, should the pope be a politician? So, I don't

00:29:43.579 --> 00:29:46.000
know, I think what gets lost in these conversations

00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:49.740
when we project our own American politics onto

00:29:49.740 --> 00:29:53.359
a church that is eight times older than the founding

00:29:53.359 --> 00:29:56.700
of the United States, I mean, a lot kind of slips

00:29:56.700 --> 00:29:59.420
away there. So, Deacon Matt, how about we start

00:29:59.420 --> 00:30:01.819
with you? What are your thoughts there? Yeah,

00:30:02.059 --> 00:30:05.980
whose pope is he? I'd say we start with first,

00:30:06.039 --> 00:30:08.519
he's the Cardinal's pope. I mean, they elected

00:30:08.519 --> 00:30:12.559
him. And so I think who this man is and who he

00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:16.099
will be is in some ways reflective of the personalities

00:30:16.099 --> 00:30:19.700
and the aspirations and the concerns also of

00:30:19.700 --> 00:30:22.119
the College of Cardinals. And in another sense,

00:30:22.220 --> 00:30:25.359
whose pope is he? He's also Pope Francis's pope.

00:30:25.539 --> 00:30:28.079
Why? Because Francis made him a cardinal. And

00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:31.500
Francis made 80 % of the current College of Cardinals

00:30:31.500 --> 00:30:35.140
cardinals. And in a way, you know, we would expect

00:30:35.140 --> 00:30:38.980
then that Leo would in some way, and you could

00:30:38.980 --> 00:30:42.500
see it even on the loggia when he's saying Francis

00:30:42.500 --> 00:30:44.740
is here, you know, and he's sort of looking down

00:30:44.740 --> 00:30:47.660
on us or he's blessing us. He said it again at

00:30:47.660 --> 00:30:49.880
his first homily. So there's a strong connection

00:30:49.880 --> 00:30:52.640
there. So in that sense, he's kind of Francis's

00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:55.519
Pope, Pope Francis's Pope. I think also that,

00:30:55.619 --> 00:30:59.980
you know, And this is not a romantic thing, right?

00:31:00.059 --> 00:31:02.339
This is Catholic belief. He's the Holy Spirit's

00:31:02.339 --> 00:31:05.420
Pope. So this isn't just a pure election, some

00:31:05.420 --> 00:31:08.880
political thing, you know, as much as the, it's

00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:13.019
so funny. I saw on, where did I see this? Somewhere

00:31:13.019 --> 00:31:17.339
about like the views of the movie Conclave went

00:31:17.339 --> 00:31:24.160
up 279 % during, it's not so much. the way that

00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:26.819
that's portrayed but i think there's a cooperation

00:31:26.819 --> 00:31:29.680
there between humanity and god at a papal election

00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:32.279
that's very special and unique and i think we

00:31:32.279 --> 00:31:34.940
need to you know understand that and respect

00:31:34.940 --> 00:31:38.500
that and to your point stephen this isn't about

00:31:38.500 --> 00:31:42.980
uh american political categories just don't fit

00:31:42.980 --> 00:31:46.359
and because we're not just some polis we're and

00:31:46.359 --> 00:31:49.119
i don't mean to over romanticize this again this

00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:52.250
is part of just who we are as we find our identity

00:31:52.250 --> 00:31:54.829
in the word of God. We're part of God's family.

00:31:54.910 --> 00:31:57.769
This is a family thing. And this is why we call

00:31:57.769 --> 00:32:00.869
him the holy father and not the holy guy or the

00:32:00.869 --> 00:32:03.930
holy administrator or the holy president or the

00:32:03.930 --> 00:32:08.170
holy whatever. So it's more like, you know, in

00:32:08.170 --> 00:32:10.430
most cases, we don't get to choose our family.

00:32:10.470 --> 00:32:13.490
But in this case, in a strange way, we do get

00:32:13.490 --> 00:32:17.059
to. And so... I don't know. It doesn't surprise

00:32:17.059 --> 00:32:19.920
me that he was a dark horse. It doesn't surprise

00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:22.559
me that we didn't know it was going to be him.

00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:28.900
But I think we need to look at him in trans -political

00:32:28.900 --> 00:32:32.019
terms and maybe look more in familial categories.

00:32:32.519 --> 00:32:36.440
And in that sense, there's a real challenge right

00:32:36.440 --> 00:32:40.019
there for his papacy. How will he demonstrate

00:32:41.769 --> 00:32:44.589
What does it mean to be a charitable, respectful,

00:32:45.069 --> 00:32:50.049
dignified father in the 21st century? How can

00:32:50.049 --> 00:32:53.630
he show us the way? And how can he, boy, Pope

00:32:53.630 --> 00:32:56.410
Francis, and I'll get off my soapbox, and Amoris

00:32:56.410 --> 00:33:00.940
Laetitia. I hope that this pope continues to

00:33:00.940 --> 00:33:05.299
dig into the family and the crises and challenges

00:33:05.299 --> 00:33:09.059
facing the family. And I hope by his example

00:33:09.059 --> 00:33:14.119
as a father, he will do that very well. Yeah,

00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:15.880
Father Jim, I see you nodding your head. What

00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:19.160
are your thoughts there? It's the same thing

00:33:19.160 --> 00:33:22.339
along the lines of what Matt was saying. Again,

00:33:22.940 --> 00:33:27.279
this desire... To place the Pope on a spectrum,

00:33:27.539 --> 00:33:32.380
you know, and and and again, OK, so the thing

00:33:32.380 --> 00:33:34.490
that bothered me. leading up to the conclave,

00:33:34.490 --> 00:33:37.130
you know, was also the talking about how, well,

00:33:37.150 --> 00:33:38.670
I guess we'll get a conservative pope since we

00:33:38.670 --> 00:33:40.289
had a liberal one in France. I was like, what

00:33:40.289 --> 00:33:42.410
the hell is this? You know, because it basically

00:33:42.410 --> 00:33:46.549
is, you know, we can't flip -flop. And it's like,

00:33:46.630 --> 00:33:49.529
again, it's the culture looking at us as this

00:33:49.529 --> 00:33:51.869
weird novelty, you know, it's like that they

00:33:51.869 --> 00:33:55.569
can mock, I guess, in one way or just look at

00:33:55.569 --> 00:33:58.950
us as weirdos because we just can't seem to find

00:33:58.950 --> 00:34:02.529
our way. You know, we go back and forth. Yes,

00:34:02.529 --> 00:34:06.769
there seemed to be some cardinals who represented

00:34:06.769 --> 00:34:11.170
maybe a more antagonistic view towards things

00:34:11.170 --> 00:34:15.449
that history has let evolve in many ways. Would

00:34:15.449 --> 00:34:17.610
they have made a good pope or not? I guess the

00:34:17.610 --> 00:34:19.750
Holy Spirit thought maybe not. And that's why

00:34:19.750 --> 00:34:24.869
they didn't rise to this. But again, you have

00:34:24.869 --> 00:34:31.130
this man who's... career, whose life, whose life

00:34:31.130 --> 00:34:34.630
as a religious, whose life as a faith -filled

00:34:34.630 --> 00:34:38.670
person was based upon helping, as Matt had said

00:34:38.670 --> 00:34:42.210
before, people who are fearful of putting a meal

00:34:42.210 --> 00:34:45.050
on a table, people who may have no shelter during

00:34:45.050 --> 00:34:48.269
a storm, people in destitute conditions and needing

00:34:48.269 --> 00:34:53.230
this kind of help. We haven't had that in an

00:34:53.230 --> 00:34:56.530
exceedingly long time. And that really has not

00:34:56.530 --> 00:34:59.590
yet come to a full awareness, I think, in any

00:34:59.590 --> 00:35:02.349
of the discussions. We've had bishop bishops,

00:35:02.530 --> 00:35:05.909
we've had a lot of bureaucrats, a lot of bureaucrats,

00:35:05.909 --> 00:35:07.989
and, you know, and people who were in a line

00:35:07.989 --> 00:35:11.550
because they were in a bureaucratic job that

00:35:11.550 --> 00:35:13.110
necessarily would have placed them into this

00:35:13.110 --> 00:35:17.519
position. To have someone Now, like Pope Leo,

00:35:17.699 --> 00:35:21.320
again, who comes from an American milieu, it

00:35:21.320 --> 00:35:29.380
is not easy to pin down any claim on him, I believe.

00:35:29.840 --> 00:35:32.219
And already, the thing I was talking with Matt

00:35:32.219 --> 00:35:34.719
the other day, just people saying, and Francis'

00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:36.820
platform is, you don't know anything about a

00:35:36.820 --> 00:35:38.239
platform. What the hell are you talking about,

00:35:38.360 --> 00:35:41.239
a platform? He hasn't said. Anything, really.

00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:43.420
Little snippets here and there. How many this?

00:35:43.480 --> 00:35:45.639
How many that? It's not like, you know, when.

00:35:47.110 --> 00:35:50.909
When Charles opens up, Charles III of Great Britain

00:35:50.909 --> 00:35:55.949
and Northern Ireland, opens up Parliament, he

00:35:55.949 --> 00:35:58.670
speaks in a speech with a piece of paper that

00:35:58.670 --> 00:36:00.909
says, and my government will do this, and my

00:36:00.909 --> 00:36:03.250
government will do that. Oh, he's getting it

00:36:03.250 --> 00:36:05.329
all from the major party that's in charge, yes.

00:36:05.469 --> 00:36:07.949
But he makes the statement. There's no pope that

00:36:07.949 --> 00:36:11.789
says, and my papacy will do this, and our church

00:36:11.789 --> 00:36:14.690
or my church will do that. It doesn't work that

00:36:14.690 --> 00:36:19.219
way. And I think that for some reason we were,

00:36:19.320 --> 00:36:23.079
I think people were put off kilter with Francis

00:36:23.079 --> 00:36:26.960
and what it means to take on this title because

00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:30.559
that's all that it is. It is a title. He is Bishop

00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:34.699
of Rome and that's about it. But then it comes

00:36:34.699 --> 00:36:36.679
with this other stuff that come along with this

00:36:36.679 --> 00:36:40.820
title. We've not had anybody really look at any

00:36:40.820 --> 00:36:44.260
of this in a really critically broad way for

00:36:44.260 --> 00:36:49.400
a long time. And now you get this guy who is

00:36:49.400 --> 00:36:53.340
– again, he seems to be approachable. He seems

00:36:53.340 --> 00:36:58.340
to be unlike other things. He seems to be cognizant

00:36:58.340 --> 00:37:01.579
of certain things. He seems to come from a background

00:37:01.579 --> 00:37:07.179
that is much more complex and perhaps many -layered,

00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:11.059
multivalent than we've understood. Again, the

00:37:11.059 --> 00:37:15.840
whole thing about trying to get his – his ancestry

00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:22.079
down. And he has Black Haitian background and

00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:24.639
things like that. Again, nobody looked at Pope

00:37:24.639 --> 00:37:28.119
Francis' genealogy and things like that, but

00:37:28.119 --> 00:37:32.019
this is where. And again, he could represent

00:37:32.019 --> 00:37:35.380
an American ethos of different peoples coming

00:37:35.380 --> 00:37:37.940
to the United States and mixing together and

00:37:37.940 --> 00:37:41.880
things like that. But that is not something you

00:37:41.880 --> 00:37:47.409
claim. That is something that you hold and you

00:37:47.409 --> 00:37:52.349
see how it unfolds, what fruit it bears. Today's

00:37:52.349 --> 00:37:56.250
gospel, you know, is about Jesus saying, I chose

00:37:56.250 --> 00:37:58.469
you to go out and bear fruit, you know, that

00:37:58.469 --> 00:38:00.789
will remain. Well, the thing is, if the Holy

00:38:00.789 --> 00:38:03.530
Spirit has chosen Publio, you know, so what is

00:38:03.530 --> 00:38:07.630
it that he will bear, you know, as fruit? Considering,

00:38:07.630 --> 00:38:11.550
our focus needs to consider all of what has made

00:38:11.550 --> 00:38:16.489
him. Pope Leo. Yeah, this is a very basic question,

00:38:16.829 --> 00:38:19.650
but I'd be interested to get both of your thoughts.

00:38:19.769 --> 00:38:24.989
I mean, what is the Pope's role? Because we come

00:38:24.989 --> 00:38:28.630
out of this time where he's lifted up and everyone's

00:38:28.630 --> 00:38:30.949
talking about him, and then there's kind of quiet.

00:38:31.190 --> 00:38:34.750
And I mean, in your view, what should the Pope's

00:38:34.750 --> 00:38:38.550
role be, particularly today, as he reads the

00:38:38.550 --> 00:38:41.050
signs of the times and leads the church in that

00:38:41.050 --> 00:38:43.309
direction? Matt, how about we start with you?

00:38:43.570 --> 00:38:46.309
Yeah, well, it's in his title, what he should

00:38:46.309 --> 00:38:48.769
be doing, right? Pontifex Maximus, he's the great

00:38:48.769 --> 00:38:53.159
bridge builder, or he's supposed to be. and he's

00:38:53.159 --> 00:38:56.260
the first among equals with the bishops. He's

00:38:56.260 --> 00:38:59.599
supposed to be a center point, a point of intersection,

00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:02.920
and not just for the hierarchy of the church,

00:39:03.019 --> 00:39:06.219
but for the world. And I think that's been the

00:39:06.219 --> 00:39:10.380
struggle for so many popes is the latter. Because

00:39:10.380 --> 00:39:14.440
it's not just the figurehead, it's also then...

00:39:15.400 --> 00:39:18.780
Yes, the institution, but also the body of Christ

00:39:18.780 --> 00:39:20.699
that he represents, i .e. the Catholic Church.

00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:23.420
How does that then become a point of intersection

00:39:23.420 --> 00:39:25.780
for the world? Or how could it become more so

00:39:25.780 --> 00:39:28.460
that? And we can say that in different ways.

00:39:28.599 --> 00:39:30.840
How could it become more inclusive or inviting?

00:39:31.260 --> 00:39:34.119
How can it be more relevant? How can it be more

00:39:34.119 --> 00:39:36.960
of an advocate for the poor and marginalized?

00:39:37.300 --> 00:39:40.340
And so on and so forth. So I think bridge building...

00:39:40.750 --> 00:39:44.150
He does that through diplomacy. He does that

00:39:44.150 --> 00:39:48.849
in different ways and teachings, you know, speaking

00:39:48.849 --> 00:39:52.230
and so forth. But I think just trying to show

00:39:52.230 --> 00:39:57.070
us that. And I think, by the way, this is a critical

00:39:57.070 --> 00:40:00.230
paradigm to really continue to show the world

00:40:00.230 --> 00:40:03.179
right now, because it just doesn't. we don't

00:40:03.179 --> 00:40:04.739
even have to say this, but we live in such a

00:40:04.739 --> 00:40:06.780
polarized, let's just talk about the United States,

00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:10.420
such a polarized society where probably the last

00:40:10.420 --> 00:40:12.840
thing on most people's minds is, hey, how do

00:40:12.840 --> 00:40:15.920
we come together? And how do we truly try to

00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:18.860
dialogue? Because that is not easy. And that

00:40:18.860 --> 00:40:20.780
doesn't mean just finding a common denominator.

00:40:21.019 --> 00:40:23.880
How do we really respect our differences? How

00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:26.800
do we really... cultivate a sense of empathy,

00:40:27.119 --> 00:40:30.159
truly a desire to try to walk in someone else's

00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:33.659
shoes, if you will? And how does the Pope, again,

00:40:33.739 --> 00:40:36.059
from his vantage point, how does he accomplish

00:40:36.059 --> 00:40:39.199
that? But that's what I would say. He should

00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:43.300
be a bridge builder. Father Jim, thoughts? And

00:40:43.300 --> 00:40:47.340
jumping off of that, I mean, this is the whole

00:40:47.340 --> 00:40:50.949
point. Again, is the Pope... supposed to be political

00:40:50.949 --> 00:40:54.590
or not. And this is where we, again, in our paltry

00:40:54.590 --> 00:40:57.650
understanding of words and English and what they

00:40:57.650 --> 00:40:59.829
mean, because again, we are not as smart as we

00:40:59.829 --> 00:41:01.909
think we are sometimes as Americans. Again, the

00:41:01.909 --> 00:41:04.710
whole idea of what does it mean to be political?

00:41:04.869 --> 00:41:08.170
What is polis in the Greek? It is that which

00:41:08.170 --> 00:41:10.670
looks out for the welfare of a community. No

00:41:10.670 --> 00:41:13.530
more, no less. You know, it's not about political

00:41:13.530 --> 00:41:15.590
agendas. It's not about platforms. It's not about

00:41:15.590 --> 00:41:17.869
manifestos. nothing about that, which is what

00:41:17.869 --> 00:41:23.190
unfortunately it has become. And so we as believers

00:41:23.190 --> 00:41:26.750
in the world, and that's the first thing I would

00:41:26.750 --> 00:41:30.730
hope that maybe Pope Leo begins to emphasize,

00:41:30.809 --> 00:41:33.989
is that before there are titles of Catholic,

00:41:34.090 --> 00:41:36.449
Lutheran, Methodist, Anglican, whatever it is,

00:41:36.489 --> 00:41:39.909
we are believers. in a world that doesn't want

00:41:39.909 --> 00:41:42.750
to believe in anything but what it thinks it

00:41:42.750 --> 00:41:45.849
wants to believe in, I guess. And yet we are

00:41:45.849 --> 00:41:48.510
called, as believers in this world, ourselves

00:41:48.510 --> 00:41:53.070
to build bridges. And so if this Pontifex Maximus

00:41:53.070 --> 00:41:57.250
should be the guide for what it means for us

00:41:57.250 --> 00:41:59.690
to build bridges within this world, to create

00:41:59.690 --> 00:42:03.679
communities where the welfare of others you know,

00:42:03.679 --> 00:42:08.139
is taken care of. And that nobody rests secure

00:42:08.139 --> 00:42:11.219
until everyone rests secure. I mean, because

00:42:11.219 --> 00:42:13.179
that is, if you want to take a look at, you know...

00:42:14.070 --> 00:42:17.230
Again, from the Franciscan standpoint, in some

00:42:17.230 --> 00:42:20.849
places, that's what Francis did. He tried to

00:42:20.849 --> 00:42:24.409
build bridges. And that's why, again, his relationships

00:42:24.409 --> 00:42:28.349
with popes were perhaps so good because they

00:42:28.349 --> 00:42:31.369
saw something in him that allowed them maybe

00:42:31.369 --> 00:42:34.289
to do their job in a better way that they could

00:42:34.289 --> 00:42:38.429
not do on their own in some places. Within all

00:42:38.429 --> 00:42:41.710
of that, I think, is also the sense of memory.

00:42:42.010 --> 00:42:44.849
We take a look as head of the church, head of

00:42:44.849 --> 00:42:46.449
the church, head of the church. And as Matt was

00:42:46.449 --> 00:42:49.510
getting, he is servant to the servants of God.

00:42:49.670 --> 00:42:51.329
He is the first among equals, you know, within

00:42:51.329 --> 00:42:53.909
that. So head of the church doesn't necessarily

00:42:53.909 --> 00:42:57.809
work within this because every bishop is the

00:42:57.809 --> 00:43:00.489
head of a church. You know, it's a local church,

00:43:00.630 --> 00:43:03.050
it's a diocese, whatever it is. So what is this

00:43:03.050 --> 00:43:05.889
pope really about? Well, remember always that

00:43:05.889 --> 00:43:10.389
the power above a pope is a council. We are a

00:43:10.389 --> 00:43:13.469
conciliar church, not a papal church, although

00:43:13.469 --> 00:43:16.610
many people have forgotten that and they take

00:43:16.610 --> 00:43:19.250
a look at us only as a papal church. Councils

00:43:19.250 --> 00:43:22.150
are what we abide by. And our last council was

00:43:22.150 --> 00:43:26.269
Vatican II. And it was up to popes that follow

00:43:26.269 --> 00:43:29.489
after that council concluded that they were the

00:43:29.489 --> 00:43:31.989
ones now who put into work what this council

00:43:31.989 --> 00:43:35.610
represented. How have they done that is another

00:43:35.610 --> 00:43:39.500
whole kind of question to ask. pope leo's responsibility

00:43:39.500 --> 00:43:44.760
is to take what vatican ii discussed and understood

00:43:44.760 --> 00:43:48.880
and see how it continues to speak more than 50

00:43:48.880 --> 00:43:51.380
years you know in fact we're moving on to 60

00:43:51.380 --> 00:43:54.460
years after its conclusion you know and and and

00:43:54.460 --> 00:43:58.309
that really needs to be something that is thought

00:43:58.309 --> 00:44:00.809
about, I think, because unless he calls another

00:44:00.809 --> 00:44:04.170
council, you know, to kind of do something else,

00:44:04.210 --> 00:44:07.510
we are operating under this. And I think a lot

00:44:07.510 --> 00:44:11.010
of times we've forgotten that. So this is, again,

00:44:11.090 --> 00:44:14.630
what his role should be for us is to implement

00:44:14.630 --> 00:44:17.429
this bridge building, as Matt says, that allows

00:44:17.429 --> 00:44:21.289
us to get this modern world talking and understanding

00:44:21.289 --> 00:44:24.019
itself. Yeah, Matt, do you have any thoughts

00:44:24.019 --> 00:44:28.820
on that? That's a really interesting, the architecture

00:44:28.820 --> 00:44:31.159
you kind of laid out there that, yeah, we're

00:44:31.159 --> 00:44:35.900
a church based on councils, where hearts and

00:44:35.900 --> 00:44:37.780
minds have been coming together for centuries.

00:44:38.019 --> 00:44:39.780
Matt, do you have anything to add there? Not

00:44:39.780 --> 00:44:43.099
really, other than, you know, I don't know if

00:44:43.099 --> 00:44:45.440
it's really an either or thing either. I think

00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:47.920
there is obviously the... the administrative

00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:52.980
role of the pope, and the pope has his own sort

00:44:52.980 --> 00:44:55.280
of place as first among equals, and then also

00:44:55.280 --> 00:44:58.639
we have, you know, the council or the conciliar

00:44:58.639 --> 00:45:01.659
dimension of the church's governance and administration.

00:45:01.780 --> 00:45:06.170
So they kind of go hand in hand. Yeah, that's

00:45:06.170 --> 00:45:09.070
an important point too, I think. Switching gears

00:45:09.070 --> 00:45:11.269
a little bit, I did want to go back to something

00:45:11.269 --> 00:45:14.989
you said early on, Matt. You were talking about...

00:45:17.260 --> 00:45:19.519
Watching the Pat McAfee show, and I love that

00:45:19.519 --> 00:45:22.420
show as well. And they're talking about the Pope.

00:45:23.260 --> 00:45:28.679
Anytime there is a new Pope, it's always very

00:45:28.679 --> 00:45:33.880
interesting that really the level of the fascination,

00:45:33.960 --> 00:45:36.019
the level of interest by not only Catholics,

00:45:36.139 --> 00:45:38.840
but non -Catholics or non -practicing Catholics.

00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:43.139
And why, in your view, is this such a spectacle?

00:45:43.340 --> 00:45:46.889
And maybe deeper, how do you think the... first

00:45:46.889 --> 00:45:50.429
quote -unquote American pope could help to renew

00:45:50.429 --> 00:45:53.010
and, in the spirit of St. Francis of Assisi,

00:45:53.130 --> 00:45:55.670
as we've been discussing, help to rebuild the

00:45:55.670 --> 00:45:57.449
Catholic Church in America. I'd love for you

00:45:57.449 --> 00:45:59.750
to kick us off, Matt. Wow, that's a tall order

00:45:59.750 --> 00:46:03.510
in terms of living up to St. Francis of Assisi,

00:46:03.590 --> 00:46:10.510
but I'll start with a very simple response. How

00:46:10.510 --> 00:46:14.269
do I categorize the phenomena around the Pope,

00:46:14.329 --> 00:46:16.630
the interest, the celebrity, like the spectacle,

00:46:16.690 --> 00:46:19.670
as you said? I think it's very simple. It's two

00:46:19.670 --> 00:46:24.510
things. It's novelty and it's oddity. And think

00:46:24.510 --> 00:46:28.780
about it. We crave the new. In so many different

00:46:28.780 --> 00:46:31.320
aspects of our life. I see it especially with

00:46:31.320 --> 00:46:34.139
my children. I'm a father of six, and I know

00:46:34.139 --> 00:46:36.739
I was this way too at their age. But if it's

00:46:36.739 --> 00:46:41.300
old, whether it's a thing or a person, and I'm

00:46:41.300 --> 00:46:43.420
just being very real with y 'all, I don't know

00:46:43.420 --> 00:46:46.340
if I really wanted to have that thing or listen

00:46:46.340 --> 00:46:51.780
to that person. Old is bad. It's this horrible...

00:46:53.059 --> 00:46:55.519
equation that we sort of get in our heads, you

00:46:55.519 --> 00:47:00.739
know, when we're younger in life that we don't

00:47:00.739 --> 00:47:02.780
need the old or let's usher it out and make room

00:47:02.780 --> 00:47:04.880
for the new. And of course, we always represent

00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:06.980
that new and wonderful thing, right? And ideas

00:47:06.980 --> 00:47:09.739
and everything else. But I think we crave novelty.

00:47:10.199 --> 00:47:13.659
And part of the craving behind it is truly, I

00:47:13.659 --> 00:47:16.340
think we're looking, this is me, I'm not trying

00:47:16.340 --> 00:47:19.179
to over -spiritualize this again or over -idealize

00:47:19.179 --> 00:47:21.840
or be Pollyannish, but I do think It's kind of

00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:25.420
like, and it wasn't G .K. Chesterton, it was

00:47:25.420 --> 00:47:27.920
a Protestant pastor who quoted this, but he said,

00:47:28.039 --> 00:47:31.840
anybody who goes to the door of a brothel is

00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:35.059
really looking for God. And I would like to apply

00:47:35.059 --> 00:47:37.699
that here. I think people are really looking

00:47:37.699 --> 00:47:40.880
for God to arrive on the scene in a new, interesting

00:47:40.880 --> 00:47:43.840
way. And in this case, in the form and structure

00:47:43.840 --> 00:47:45.760
of the church and in the election of the Pope,

00:47:45.780 --> 00:47:47.840
I think, honestly, there's a sincere interest

00:47:47.840 --> 00:47:52.239
that is coming from the hearts of people in their

00:47:52.239 --> 00:47:54.980
own quest for God. And I think that's part of

00:47:54.980 --> 00:47:57.539
this novelty, too. So it's not, in my mind, just

00:47:57.539 --> 00:47:59.659
a public circus or spectacle. I think there is

00:47:59.659 --> 00:48:02.420
something deeper happening. But it is also an

00:48:02.420 --> 00:48:05.380
oddity, like a papal election with all of its

00:48:05.380 --> 00:48:07.420
traps. happenings and ceremony, that ceremony

00:48:07.420 --> 00:48:09.519
that dates back hundreds and hundreds of years.

00:48:09.780 --> 00:48:12.559
It's strange. Like we don't, we don't see that.

00:48:12.639 --> 00:48:15.320
It's like watching the coronation of, you know,

00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:17.679
King Charles or Queen Elizabeth. These things

00:48:17.679 --> 00:48:20.099
just don't happen often. And they're strange

00:48:20.099 --> 00:48:23.980
to us and, and literally foreign to us. And I

00:48:23.980 --> 00:48:28.619
think that's part of it. I think that I want

00:48:28.619 --> 00:48:32.280
to kind of take a different angle. I wish that.

00:48:32.750 --> 00:48:35.409
And I'm speaking to Catholics here. I wish that

00:48:35.409 --> 00:48:38.750
more Catholics would be just as enthralled and

00:48:38.750 --> 00:48:41.929
curious and intrigued in their own quest for

00:48:41.929 --> 00:48:45.050
God within just the Mass that's offered every

00:48:45.050 --> 00:48:47.670
single day. I mean, that's where Jesus shows

00:48:47.670 --> 00:48:50.829
up. That's way more interesting to me than a

00:48:50.829 --> 00:48:53.369
papal election. That's way more important to

00:48:53.369 --> 00:48:56.150
me than who's the next pope or whether the pope's

00:48:56.150 --> 00:48:58.170
visiting the U .S. or wherever he is in the world.

00:48:59.230 --> 00:49:03.639
There's such a skewed... in terms of like interest,

00:49:03.900 --> 00:49:06.440
right? Even among Catholics that like, oh my

00:49:06.440 --> 00:49:08.679
gosh, the Pope's coming to Philadelphia or to

00:49:08.679 --> 00:49:11.050
New York. I was thinking of Pope Francis. Back

00:49:11.050 --> 00:49:14.750
in the 1970s, when John Paul II visited my hometown

00:49:14.750 --> 00:49:17.809
in Iowa, throngs of people came out, and it was

00:49:17.809 --> 00:49:20.730
this huge thing. But then probably two or three

00:49:20.730 --> 00:49:24.030
weeks later, attendance at Sunday Mass is probably

00:49:24.030 --> 00:49:26.489
half what it should be, right? There's a lot

00:49:26.489 --> 00:49:28.949
of empty pews. So there's something going on

00:49:28.949 --> 00:49:31.570
here that I'm very curious to unpack, too. But

00:49:31.570 --> 00:49:33.489
man, I wish we had that kind of excitement just

00:49:33.489 --> 00:49:36.650
around the fact that Jesus is with us in his

00:49:36.650 --> 00:49:40.659
word and in our daily bread. Absolutely. Yeah.

00:49:40.820 --> 00:49:44.900
Father Jim, what would you add? Just the kind

00:49:44.900 --> 00:49:50.280
of thing, just what Matt said. public fancy,

00:49:50.699 --> 00:49:54.300
you know, or the fleeting interest, because I

00:49:54.300 --> 00:49:55.699
think that's kind of what it is in some ways,

00:49:55.760 --> 00:49:57.559
too. The fleeting interest in all of this will

00:49:57.559 --> 00:50:00.159
wane, you know, and then it becomes, you know,

00:50:00.179 --> 00:50:02.400
because Matt and I were talking, there was a

00:50:02.400 --> 00:50:06.079
CNN, you know, broadcast about, you know, that

00:50:06.079 --> 00:50:08.199
it was in to be Catholic, you know, all of a

00:50:08.199 --> 00:50:10.360
sudden during all of this. In to be Catholic?

00:50:10.460 --> 00:50:12.699
What the heck does that mean? You know, but it's

00:50:12.699 --> 00:50:15.280
this whole kind of thing where novelty and whatever

00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:16.880
it is can wrap us up into all kinds of things.

00:50:17.550 --> 00:50:21.250
But I also think, so when you look at what makes

00:50:21.250 --> 00:50:24.789
money for Hollywood nowadays, it is superhero

00:50:24.789 --> 00:50:28.809
movies. It is the whole DC Marvel comic universe

00:50:28.809 --> 00:50:33.099
unfolding and unfolding, unfolding. has caused

00:50:33.099 --> 00:50:36.840
us in many ways to want to take the idea of hero

00:50:36.840 --> 00:50:40.320
and to turn that into somebody who just doesn't

00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:43.500
do his or her job well, but somehow becomes superhuman.

00:50:43.599 --> 00:50:47.320
We want a hero. I mean, why? Because is everything

00:50:47.320 --> 00:50:50.380
so out of control or we're so afraid of everything

00:50:50.380 --> 00:50:53.059
that we need to have somebody like that? Well,

00:50:53.199 --> 00:50:57.719
don't let the Holy Father. go into that category

00:50:57.719 --> 00:51:00.219
because I think that's what kind of has happened.

00:51:00.360 --> 00:51:03.079
You know, whenever the Dalai Lama comes, you

00:51:03.079 --> 00:51:06.079
know, ah, the Dalai Lama is here as if, as if

00:51:06.079 --> 00:51:08.579
it's going to change everything and he shows

00:51:08.579 --> 00:51:11.059
up and it's nice and he says nice things and,

00:51:11.079 --> 00:51:14.460
and those who are truly attracted to him will

00:51:14.460 --> 00:51:16.699
come away with something, but the rest of the

00:51:16.699 --> 00:51:20.239
world still meanders on in, in, in hurt and brokenness,

00:51:20.239 --> 00:51:22.820
you know? And so, so this is where I, again,

00:51:22.900 --> 00:51:26.119
I go back to the whole understanding of, What

00:51:26.119 --> 00:51:29.599
is it about us as believers, you know, that we

00:51:29.599 --> 00:51:32.739
will need to reclaim? And again, as Matt said,

00:51:33.019 --> 00:51:35.739
the Eucharist is supposed to be about teaching

00:51:35.739 --> 00:51:39.880
us to be witnesses to more than just what life

00:51:39.880 --> 00:51:43.139
is throwing at us. You know, go, you are sent.

00:51:43.460 --> 00:51:46.699
You know, that is a dismissal. But sometimes

00:51:46.699 --> 00:51:50.829
it gets distorted and the Mass has ended. Thank

00:51:50.829 --> 00:51:52.889
God. Go in peace. You know, because it was a

00:51:52.889 --> 00:51:54.750
horrible experience. We had to endure it for

00:51:54.750 --> 00:51:58.630
an hour or 45 minutes. And it's not what we that's

00:51:58.630 --> 00:52:00.550
not what we were ever called to do. I mean, and

00:52:00.550 --> 00:52:06.110
so can this idea of a pope? I think Francis attempted

00:52:06.110 --> 00:52:09.010
to move us in this direction in some ways. The

00:52:09.010 --> 00:52:12.150
other whole part of this. is that there are no

00:52:12.150 --> 00:52:16.349
term limits. So Benedict resigned. Thankfully,

00:52:16.449 --> 00:52:18.510
he realized he should never have been chosen,

00:52:18.630 --> 00:52:21.250
which is a whole other podcast. Again, it's like,

00:52:21.269 --> 00:52:23.150
did the Holy Spirit choose him or not? And can

00:52:23.150 --> 00:52:24.849
you say no to the Holy Spirit when it chooses

00:52:24.849 --> 00:52:28.670
you? But the fact of the matter is, when they

00:52:28.670 --> 00:52:32.630
get older, they become feeble and they become

00:52:32.630 --> 00:52:35.289
not so much on the stage and they can't see things

00:52:35.289 --> 00:52:38.429
and they get sick. And we see them kind of bloated

00:52:38.429 --> 00:52:40.469
with medicines and everything else like that.

00:52:41.150 --> 00:52:43.630
Okay, you're still leading, I guess, but then

00:52:43.630 --> 00:52:47.409
how? And what's going on with all of that? Again,

00:52:47.510 --> 00:52:49.090
it's all these things that I think about at night.

00:52:49.269 --> 00:52:52.329
But those are the kinds of things I think that

00:52:52.329 --> 00:52:55.449
need to also be part of our awareness and our

00:52:55.449 --> 00:52:57.889
conversations. I got one thing for you, Stephen.

00:52:57.969 --> 00:53:01.480
I failed to answer the piece about... living

00:53:01.480 --> 00:53:04.300
up to St. Francis or living into St. Francis.

00:53:04.340 --> 00:53:06.619
But I just want to offer this thought. You know,

00:53:06.659 --> 00:53:09.760
back, it was early in Pope Francis's papacy when

00:53:09.760 --> 00:53:13.119
he went to the prison and kissed the feet and

00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:18.860
washed them. But I remember that, this is back

00:53:18.860 --> 00:53:22.000
when it was Twitter, that that got more tweets

00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:26.300
by far than Justin Bieber's new album. And if

00:53:26.300 --> 00:53:29.000
you can beat or outpace Justin Bieber, he was

00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:33.000
huge at that time. And I'm like, he's doing something

00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:35.300
that's meaningful. And of course, this is a simple

00:53:35.300 --> 00:53:38.559
gesture, but it's a gesture of humility. And

00:53:38.559 --> 00:53:41.099
I think the more, and that is who I think St.

00:53:41.320 --> 00:53:43.780
Francis embodies, is that humility. So the more

00:53:43.780 --> 00:53:46.860
that this Pope, Pope Leo, can embody that and

00:53:46.860 --> 00:53:49.519
truly model that, demonstrate that, how do we

00:53:49.519 --> 00:53:52.139
bring humility into the public square? How do

00:53:52.139 --> 00:53:54.260
we bring humility into dialogue with people we

00:53:54.260 --> 00:53:58.710
have differences with? humility in the home humility

00:53:58.710 --> 00:54:01.630
in our schools my gosh if i hear about another

00:54:01.630 --> 00:54:03.829
you know violent act in our schools you just

00:54:03.829 --> 00:54:05.510
wanted to like tear i don't have much hair left

00:54:05.510 --> 00:54:08.289
but i feel like tearing it out um how do we bring

00:54:08.289 --> 00:54:10.829
humility into these spaces that's that i think

00:54:10.829 --> 00:54:12.949
would be a wonderful way to live into that that

00:54:12.949 --> 00:54:16.969
model of francis yeah well where that question

00:54:16.969 --> 00:54:22.860
came from for me is i mean you the the church

00:54:22.860 --> 00:54:25.619
we're all speaking as americans i mean the american

00:54:25.619 --> 00:54:28.440
catholic church is just so deeply wounded it

00:54:28.440 --> 00:54:32.139
just feels like scandal after scandal and and

00:54:32.139 --> 00:54:36.039
then now we have this pope from chicago unfortunately

00:54:36.039 --> 00:54:39.320
a white socks fan but from chicago that's scandalous

00:54:39.320 --> 00:54:43.500
and it sounds but but it it did just make me

00:54:43.500 --> 00:54:47.800
wonder like is there is there potentially a unique

00:54:47.800 --> 00:54:53.219
role um For, yes, increased interest in perhaps

00:54:53.219 --> 00:54:56.500
the faith that many have abandoned, faith of

00:54:56.500 --> 00:54:58.360
their youth that has been abandoned. But then

00:54:58.360 --> 00:55:01.619
is there a unique role here for Pope Leo to play?

00:55:02.019 --> 00:55:06.860
Because he's in touch with what has happened

00:55:06.860 --> 00:55:09.440
in this country, perhaps on a deeper level than

00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:12.710
others. Any final thoughts on that? I have one

00:55:12.710 --> 00:55:15.710
quick thought, if I may, Jim. When he came out

00:55:15.710 --> 00:55:18.429
on the Logia and he talked about Pope Francis

00:55:18.429 --> 00:55:20.929
and he mentioned Francis's vision of church as

00:55:20.929 --> 00:55:23.690
an open door in a field hospital, I think to

00:55:23.690 --> 00:55:28.210
your point, Stephen, I'm curious how Leo will...

00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:31.980
to lead the Church into that vision more, particularly

00:55:31.980 --> 00:55:34.059
of the field hospital, because there is still

00:55:34.059 --> 00:55:37.500
a lot of healing that needs to happen within

00:55:37.500 --> 00:55:40.679
the Catholic Church. How will he go about doing

00:55:40.679 --> 00:55:43.980
that? I don't know, but I hope he moves in that

00:55:43.980 --> 00:55:48.500
trajectory. Yeah. Any thoughts, Father Jim? I

00:55:48.500 --> 00:55:52.219
think that... So one of the things, again, with

00:55:52.219 --> 00:55:56.960
the wokeness comments and liberals embracing

00:55:56.960 --> 00:56:01.860
him or whatever it is, in 2012, again, he kind

00:56:01.860 --> 00:56:07.380
of came out against the LGBT community as being

00:56:07.380 --> 00:56:09.599
something that was problematic and same -sex

00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:11.980
marriages with children being problematic. Now,

00:56:12.079 --> 00:56:16.769
that was 2012, again, 13 years ago. he seems

00:56:16.769 --> 00:56:20.030
to have had some kind of growth, change of opinion,

00:56:20.289 --> 00:56:25.010
realization, what's happening, which is, that's

00:56:25.010 --> 00:56:27.730
important to note. You know, again, there are

00:56:27.730 --> 00:56:30.349
some who are basically just focusing in on that

00:56:30.349 --> 00:56:33.550
and saying that this is who he is, when, again,

00:56:33.610 --> 00:56:36.889
we can never be defined by one comment, by one

00:56:36.889 --> 00:56:40.230
episode, by one age, by one, you know, event

00:56:40.230 --> 00:56:42.750
or whatever it is in our lives. We are the...

00:56:42.940 --> 00:56:46.699
multitude of constant impacts upon who and what

00:56:46.699 --> 00:56:49.980
we are as human beings. And I think that for

00:56:49.980 --> 00:56:56.320
him to be able to speak in many ways with a history

00:56:56.320 --> 00:56:59.079
that he brings with him, again, this whole idea

00:56:59.079 --> 00:57:02.920
about making him a holy person in a bubble is

00:57:02.920 --> 00:57:06.239
not going to do anybody any benefit whatsoever.

00:57:07.440 --> 00:57:09.960
There is, again, something that he's moving into

00:57:09.960 --> 00:57:12.739
the papal apartments. Again, he came out in the

00:57:12.739 --> 00:57:15.719
regalia. It's kind of like Pope Francis lived

00:57:15.719 --> 00:57:18.780
in the guest house, which was busy and filled

00:57:18.780 --> 00:57:20.539
with people and all kinds of things like that.

00:57:20.639 --> 00:57:23.340
You wonder, did he ever get any rest? These kinds

00:57:23.340 --> 00:57:27.099
of things like that. But can you, in our small

00:57:27.099 --> 00:57:31.050
American mindset, We only want to see people

00:57:31.050 --> 00:57:34.949
in this way. And the fact that Leo is moving

00:57:34.949 --> 00:57:38.230
in this direction, but still a missionary bishop,

00:57:38.329 --> 00:57:40.929
somebody who is conscious of the world's issues,

00:57:41.010 --> 00:57:44.230
who embraced a pope, who took on an understanding

00:57:44.230 --> 00:57:50.289
of new things. And this is the thing. We have

00:57:50.289 --> 00:57:53.130
such a limited view of how God works and how

00:57:53.130 --> 00:57:56.550
God operates. And I think that the surprise of

00:57:56.550 --> 00:58:00.349
Pope Leo is going to force us to expand that

00:58:00.349 --> 00:58:02.829
limited view. And let's see where that goes.

00:58:03.349 --> 00:58:07.010
Yeah, well, that leads nicely here into, how

00:58:07.010 --> 00:58:11.469
about some prediction time? And we've hit on

00:58:11.469 --> 00:58:17.670
some of this already, but, you know. Saints over

00:58:17.670 --> 00:58:23.809
giants by 14. Tell me the future. In what ways

00:58:23.809 --> 00:58:27.329
do you think Pope Leo will continue on the path

00:58:27.329 --> 00:58:30.070
of Pope Francis? And then perhaps in what ways

00:58:30.070 --> 00:58:33.969
do you think he may deviate or build upon it?

00:58:34.010 --> 00:58:38.010
Father Jim, let's start with you. So again, as

00:58:38.010 --> 00:58:39.809
Matt was saying at the very beginning, it's so

00:58:39.809 --> 00:58:44.929
early to kind of get to this point. And the thing

00:58:44.929 --> 00:58:46.070
that I was just going to say that was coming

00:58:46.070 --> 00:58:49.329
to my mind, when they said Robert Prevost, I

00:58:49.329 --> 00:58:51.250
was sure that people had little books and they

00:58:51.250 --> 00:58:52.929
were, Prevost, Prevost, who's that? Who is that?

00:58:54.590 --> 00:58:58.590
So there's so much that needs to be, so much

00:58:58.590 --> 00:59:02.150
homework that needs to be done to understand

00:59:02.150 --> 00:59:05.849
this man and who he is and what he represents.

00:59:05.869 --> 00:59:08.769
represents, that it kind of, I think that it

00:59:08.769 --> 00:59:12.030
oversteps to go prediction -wise in a large way.

00:59:12.530 --> 00:59:17.110
But again, he was only a cardinal for two years.

00:59:17.369 --> 00:59:21.750
And so that's the thing. He wasn't an operatic,

00:59:21.929 --> 00:59:25.030
he wasn't a bureaucrat, you know, who was doing

00:59:25.030 --> 00:59:28.809
this job for a long time. So only two years into

00:59:28.809 --> 00:59:31.730
this upper echelon of people who choose popes,

00:59:31.730 --> 00:59:36.650
and he gets chosen pope. So I think in some ways

00:59:36.650 --> 00:59:41.230
it's surprise. You know, I like to say God is

00:59:41.230 --> 00:59:44.989
a God of surprises, and this is a surprise. Now,

00:59:45.150 --> 00:59:48.889
is Pope Leo going to be able to surprise us,

00:59:48.929 --> 00:59:52.929
you know, as he begins to take on this responsibility,

00:59:53.090 --> 00:59:56.510
burden, joy of what it means, you know, to be

00:59:56.510 --> 00:59:59.349
this Pontifex Maximus, you know, this bridge?

00:59:59.590 --> 01:00:02.130
And will that, you know, it would be wonderful

01:00:02.130 --> 01:00:05.579
to have a church. Francis. Was it Pope of surprises?

01:00:06.699 --> 01:00:08.780
And again, sometimes surprises are kind of just

01:00:08.780 --> 01:00:10.559
left hanging on the line and nothing else happened

01:00:10.559 --> 01:00:14.440
to them. But may Pope Leo be able to kind of

01:00:14.440 --> 01:00:18.679
move us into surprises that really begin to impact

01:00:18.679 --> 01:00:22.539
how we've understood this faith, both erroneously

01:00:22.539 --> 01:00:26.820
and appropriately, you know, for so many centuries

01:00:26.820 --> 01:00:28.940
and whatever it is, you know, to lead us into

01:00:28.940 --> 01:00:34.159
something more. Matt, predictions, hopes? Um,

01:00:34.219 --> 01:00:38.099
you know, I was thinking about, um, and I think

01:00:38.099 --> 01:00:40.679
this is indicative of like how social media has

01:00:40.679 --> 01:00:43.880
shaped how we relate to each other because like

01:00:43.880 --> 01:00:46.760
this, no one even knows who this guy is, but

01:00:46.760 --> 01:00:50.420
because I can find something out about him on

01:00:50.420 --> 01:00:54.199
the internet that his profile, like, you know,

01:00:54.219 --> 01:00:57.320
now I know him, right? He said this in 2012.

01:00:57.519 --> 01:01:00.539
He said that in 2018. He went over there in 2015.

01:01:00.980 --> 01:01:04.539
He received this honor in 2018. And then somehow,

01:01:04.639 --> 01:01:07.059
because this is a part of his matrix profile,

01:01:07.460 --> 01:01:11.039
I now know this guy is the most asinine thing

01:01:11.039 --> 01:01:15.920
in the world. But as we operate this way on a

01:01:15.920 --> 01:01:20.150
daily basis through social media. We apply this

01:01:20.150 --> 01:01:22.769
to all of our events, and in this case, you know,

01:01:22.769 --> 01:01:25.030
a significant world event with the election of

01:01:25.030 --> 01:01:28.610
a pope. So that being said, I'm off my soapbox.

01:01:28.789 --> 01:01:30.829
I think that, I already said it, I think, that

01:01:30.829 --> 01:01:34.030
I think he's going to lean into the field hospital

01:01:34.030 --> 01:01:37.750
and open door image that Francis gave us for

01:01:37.750 --> 01:01:40.010
the church. I don't know how it's going to happen,

01:01:40.150 --> 01:01:43.469
but... That seemed to be important to him when

01:01:43.469 --> 01:01:47.190
he was on the loggia and talking about Pope Francis

01:01:47.190 --> 01:01:51.510
and what he meant to him, meaning Leo. I think,

01:01:51.630 --> 01:01:55.150
again, there's so much healing that needs to

01:01:55.150 --> 01:02:01.289
happen. It's no secret. I still think this ratio

01:02:01.289 --> 01:02:04.030
is true, that for every one person that comes

01:02:04.030 --> 01:02:06.630
into the Catholic Church, six leave. I mean,

01:02:06.650 --> 01:02:09.570
there's just a continual hemorrhage of Catholics.

01:02:11.389 --> 01:02:14.050
Part of the reason for that hemorrhage, yes,

01:02:14.269 --> 01:02:17.889
is a sense of spiritual unfulfillment. Yes, a

01:02:17.889 --> 01:02:22.510
sense of a lack of belonging and connectivity

01:02:22.510 --> 01:02:26.329
with a community of believers. But I would also

01:02:26.329 --> 01:02:28.929
add that there's a lot of woundedness that's

01:02:28.929 --> 01:02:31.389
happened in the church for a number of reasons,

01:02:31.429 --> 01:02:35.170
and that still hasn't been addressed on the level

01:02:35.170 --> 01:02:37.929
it should, which is that local level. You know,

01:02:37.949 --> 01:02:40.690
we believe in subsidiarity in the church. If

01:02:40.690 --> 01:02:42.650
there's a local issue, it should be handled by

01:02:42.650 --> 01:02:47.889
local people. And until we get more serious about

01:02:47.889 --> 01:02:49.550
that, and that is a Catholic social teaching

01:02:49.550 --> 01:02:52.090
principle, by the way, until we get more serious

01:02:52.090 --> 01:02:54.329
about that, I don't think we can get the kind

01:02:54.329 --> 01:02:57.750
of healing that we hope to have as this field

01:02:57.750 --> 01:03:00.869
hospital slash church. Any final words as we

01:03:00.869 --> 01:03:05.349
conclude? Father Jim? When we're talking about

01:03:05.349 --> 01:03:07.190
why are people leaving beyond fulfillment and

01:03:07.190 --> 01:03:09.690
things like that, I think to add into that is

01:03:09.690 --> 01:03:13.809
also finding out why people are staying and that

01:03:13.809 --> 01:03:17.010
they know why they're staying. Again, if they're

01:03:17.010 --> 01:03:19.429
staying just to get into heaven, that's not really

01:03:19.429 --> 01:03:22.570
a reason to stay. And again, they're staying

01:03:22.570 --> 01:03:25.510
because just going through the motions, that's

01:03:25.510 --> 01:03:30.190
not a reason to stay. So this is where we have

01:03:30.190 --> 01:03:32.760
this sense in which... People are looking for

01:03:32.760 --> 01:03:36.360
identity in such a narrow way, you know, and

01:03:36.360 --> 01:03:38.519
this is where, because I need to know this is

01:03:38.519 --> 01:03:41.639
what makes me different than a Methodist, Episcopalian,

01:03:41.659 --> 01:03:44.739
a Presbyterian, whatever it is. But you need

01:03:44.739 --> 01:03:47.059
more than that. You need more than that. And

01:03:47.059 --> 01:03:49.820
so to be, again, this understanding of myself

01:03:49.820 --> 01:03:52.599
and what faith does for me and what it means

01:03:52.599 --> 01:03:56.210
for me. Yeah, I hope that this begins to come

01:03:56.210 --> 01:04:01.550
out from Poblio in this way. And more people

01:04:01.550 --> 01:04:05.690
should be interested in knowing who this man

01:04:05.690 --> 01:04:09.409
is and what he represents. But again, it's to

01:04:09.409 --> 01:04:11.690
use wisdom, because that's what God has given

01:04:11.690 --> 01:04:16.010
us in a brain, to discern what is right and what

01:04:16.010 --> 01:04:20.329
is the madness of the masses, trying to create

01:04:20.329 --> 01:04:24.369
something just to create it, I think. yeah well

01:04:24.369 --> 01:04:26.650
that makes me think of what matt said earlier

01:04:26.650 --> 01:04:30.849
i mean one interesting thing about this papal

01:04:30.849 --> 01:04:33.829
election is that and i wonder if this is underlying

01:04:33.829 --> 01:04:37.929
some of this is that there is even if it's a

01:04:37.929 --> 01:04:41.010
subconscious realization there is something so

01:04:41.010 --> 01:04:45.889
sacred about it. And then I think the invitation

01:04:45.889 --> 01:04:49.610
Matt laid out earlier is so important. It's like,

01:04:49.670 --> 01:04:53.590
yeah, the sacred is here and now. It's in the

01:04:53.590 --> 01:04:56.710
Mass. It's through the Eucharist. The Word is

01:04:56.710 --> 01:04:58.889
alive and active in our midst. Just go outside.

01:04:59.389 --> 01:05:04.349
So this invitation of, yeah, that was really

01:05:04.349 --> 01:05:08.110
cool. A Pope from Chicago. There's no denying

01:05:08.110 --> 01:05:11.880
that. However, like can I open my eyes can I

01:05:11.880 --> 01:05:15.239
open my senses to the word that's inviting me

01:05:15.239 --> 01:05:19.139
in here and now Matt any concluding thoughts

01:05:19.139 --> 01:05:25.269
yeah it kind of reminds me of Was the American

01:05:25.269 --> 01:05:28.449
poet T .S. Eliot said we had the I might get

01:05:28.449 --> 01:05:30.389
this wrong, but I think he said we had the event,

01:05:30.469 --> 01:05:32.329
but we missed the experience kind of a thing.

01:05:32.389 --> 01:05:35.170
I don't want this to be just another event, you

01:05:35.170 --> 01:05:37.469
know, another kind of odd and novel thing that

01:05:37.469 --> 01:05:39.809
then gets tucked away and forgotten. And we move

01:05:39.809 --> 01:05:42.150
about our business and that's going to depend

01:05:42.150 --> 01:05:46.889
largely on. Leo's ability to, and desire to do

01:05:46.889 --> 01:05:48.969
what Jim was talking about, which is make these

01:05:48.969 --> 01:05:52.550
intentional connections with all, with all people,

01:05:52.710 --> 01:05:56.130
not just Catholics, the connections to, um, where

01:05:56.130 --> 01:05:59.909
he becomes sort of a, uh, an example of, of God

01:05:59.909 --> 01:06:03.269
and his love for us, his humility, God's, God's

01:06:03.269 --> 01:06:06.210
humility, you know, um, thinking of Iliadilio

01:06:06.210 --> 01:06:10.500
here and, um, and how And how there's freedom

01:06:10.500 --> 01:06:12.380
in that and there's hope in that and there's

01:06:12.380 --> 01:06:16.400
fulfillment in that. And this world needs that

01:06:16.400 --> 01:06:19.280
example of humility. So I think, you know, I

01:06:19.280 --> 01:06:21.719
got a lot of hope, but I'm a hopeless romantic,

01:06:21.920 --> 01:06:26.340
too. And that's what attracted me to you, Matt,

01:06:26.460 --> 01:06:30.489
in the first place. Nothing wrong with Hopeless

01:06:30.489 --> 01:06:33.449
Romantics. This has been great, guys. The notebook.

01:06:33.610 --> 01:06:39.369
Anyway. We had to bring it back to the notebook

01:06:39.369 --> 01:06:41.530
somehow. Always the notebook. Always the notebook.

01:06:42.050 --> 01:06:46.909
The most spiritually centered movie. If we ever

01:06:46.909 --> 01:06:49.429
do this again, let's play a game. We'll start

01:06:49.429 --> 01:06:51.510
it. We'll talk about it. But it's going to be

01:06:51.510 --> 01:06:54.369
six degrees from the notebook. We're going to

01:06:54.369 --> 01:06:57.019
see how we can do this. That's the name of the

01:06:57.019 --> 01:06:58.980
podcast that you two are going to do together.

01:06:59.159 --> 01:07:02.159
Oh, that is hilarious. Six Degrees from the Notebook.

01:07:03.119 --> 01:07:05.280
Well, thank you both for coming on Off the Page.

01:07:05.380 --> 01:07:12.800
This was a lot of fun. Once again, that was Father

01:07:12.800 --> 01:07:17.099
Jim Saback and Deacon Matt Halbach. I've linked

01:07:17.099 --> 01:07:19.340
to any additional resources in the show notes

01:07:19.340 --> 01:07:22.280
of this episode, including Father Jim's podcast

01:07:22.280 --> 01:07:25.179
in Breaking of the Word, published on every Monday

01:07:25.179 --> 01:07:28.519
morning through Franciscan Media. I hope you've

01:07:28.519 --> 01:07:31.219
enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. And

01:07:31.219 --> 01:07:33.880
I invite you to consider what Matt said in this

01:07:33.880 --> 01:07:36.820
episode, bringing the same excitement that we

01:07:36.820 --> 01:07:39.340
witnessed during the Pope's election into our

01:07:39.340 --> 01:07:43.329
own daily walks of faith. It's true, it's not

01:07:43.329 --> 01:07:45.630
every day that the College of Cardinals elects

01:07:45.630 --> 01:07:48.329
a new pope, but there are sacred encounters everywhere.

01:07:48.690 --> 01:07:52.369
And as both him and Father Jim mentioned, the

01:07:52.369 --> 01:07:55.090
Holy Spirit is always at work in us and through

01:07:55.090 --> 01:07:58.750
us and with us. Are we aware of this movement

01:07:58.750 --> 01:08:03.550
of divine love right here and right now? This

01:08:03.550 --> 01:08:07.130
is Stephen Copeland signing off. Peace and all

01:08:07.130 --> 01:08:13.019
good. the desert with me