WEBVTT 00:00:08.779 --> 00:00:11.380 Welcome to the Off the Page podcast. I'm Stephen 00:00:11.380 --> 00:00:14.279 Copeland. For listeners of Off the Page, it will 00:00:14.279 --> 00:00:17.219 be no surprise that a pope who took the name 00:00:17.219 --> 00:00:20.519 Francis would come up often in the Franciscan 00:00:20.519 --> 00:00:23.280 conversations that are featured on this podcast. 00:00:24.219 --> 00:00:27.280 This episode is a compilation of both published 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:30.780 and unpublished interviews where guests talk 00:00:30.780 --> 00:00:34.439 about the life, legacy, and papacy of Pope Francis. 00:00:35.490 --> 00:00:38.170 Included here is Father Murray Bodo, talking 00:00:38.170 --> 00:00:41.710 about Pope Francis' heart for the poor. Dr. Daniel 00:00:41.710 --> 00:00:44.770 P. Horan, talking about God's love and mercy 00:00:44.770 --> 00:00:47.469 being a cornerstone to Pope Francis' papacy. 00:00:48.030 --> 00:00:51.329 Sister Margaret Carney, talking about the Pope's 00:00:51.329 --> 00:00:54.310 unique ability to, much like St. Francis of Assisi, 00:00:54.509 --> 00:00:56.969 speak the language of the people and make the 00:00:56.969 --> 00:01:00.409 Catholic faith accessible. Also included is Brother 00:01:00.409 --> 00:01:03.359 Keith Warner. talking about the Franciscan undertones 00:01:03.359 --> 00:01:06.599 and the Pope's encyclicals, particularly Laudato 00:01:06.599 --> 00:01:10.180 Si, and this encyclical's lasting call to environmental 00:01:10.180 --> 00:01:13.500 conversion and what the Pope calls integral ecology. 00:01:14.040 --> 00:01:17.819 And lastly, the poet Dr. Angela Alimo O'Donnell 00:01:17.819 --> 00:01:21.299 discussing the Pope's love for art and literature. 00:01:22.030 --> 00:01:24.549 I have also included two other clips in this 00:01:24.549 --> 00:01:27.109 episode that are not from off -the -page interviews. 00:01:27.390 --> 00:01:30.590 This episode begins with a recording from 2021 00:01:30.590 --> 00:01:33.329 with Sister Margaret Carney again, where she 00:01:33.329 --> 00:01:36.390 frames Pope Francis' papacy as one that is uniquely 00:01:36.390 --> 00:01:40.150 Franciscan. And then this episode concludes with 00:01:40.150 --> 00:01:42.750 some of Pope Francis' own words about divine 00:01:42.750 --> 00:01:46.450 mercy, translated and recorded on audiobook in 00:01:46.450 --> 00:01:49.650 the Franciscan media title, Believe in Love. 00:01:50.170 --> 00:01:53.129 This episode admittedly only scratches the surface 00:01:53.129 --> 00:01:56.629 of Pope Francis's life, papacy, and legacy, but 00:01:56.629 --> 00:01:59.090 in editing this episode, I thought it was really 00:01:59.090 --> 00:02:02.409 neat to see how naturally the Pope's impact came 00:02:02.409 --> 00:02:06.129 up in these conversations. Off the page has only 00:02:06.129 --> 00:02:10.060 been It's only existed for a year, and yet the 00:02:10.060 --> 00:02:13.060 Pope's impact was coming up in almost every other 00:02:13.060 --> 00:02:16.259 episode. So I do encourage you to visit the show 00:02:16.259 --> 00:02:19.280 notes for this episode, as I hope the clips compiled 00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:23.199 here may be on ramps to a deeper dive into Pope 00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:26.060 Francis's impact on the church and the world. 00:02:26.909 --> 00:02:29.949 So what does Pope Francis's life and legacy mean 00:02:29.949 --> 00:02:33.310 to me? Honestly, I feel a little out of my depth 00:02:33.310 --> 00:02:35.870 to talk about that. I don't think I'll be able 00:02:35.870 --> 00:02:39.150 to fully grasp, probably until years down the 00:02:39.150 --> 00:02:43.729 road, just how unique it was for me to be spiraling 00:02:43.729 --> 00:02:46.490 into the Christian mystics and the Franciscan 00:02:46.490 --> 00:02:49.870 tradition the last decade here at the same time 00:02:49.870 --> 00:02:52.990 that Pope Francis was leading the church. When 00:02:52.990 --> 00:02:55.430 he was elected by the College of Cardinals in 00:02:55.430 --> 00:02:59.240 2013, I was still pretty deep in the evangelical 00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:02.780 Christian world. However, I was beginning to 00:03:02.780 --> 00:03:07.199 engage my doubts about faith and deconstruct 00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:10.199 my theology, as they say. And I remember his 00:03:10.199 --> 00:03:13.300 famous, who am I to judge line, as if it were 00:03:13.300 --> 00:03:18.719 yesterday. Here was someone I saw who was putting 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:22.400 love and mercy and acceptance at the forefront 00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:25.460 of the conversation rather than doctrine, dogma, 00:03:25.460 --> 00:03:27.900 and the kind of religious dualism I had grown 00:03:27.900 --> 00:03:31.020 incredibly bored and frustrated with in conservative 00:03:31.020 --> 00:03:35.219 evangelicalism. So did Pope Francis lead me to 00:03:35.219 --> 00:03:39.979 return to my Catholic roots? I don't know. Thomas 00:03:39.979 --> 00:03:43.000 Merton, Henry Nowen, St. Teresa of Avila, St. 00:03:43.199 --> 00:03:45.919 Francis of Assisi, St. Clair of Assisi. They 00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:50.180 certainly did. But, you know, working with my 00:03:50.180 --> 00:03:53.360 late mentor, Father Dan Riley, on his book, Franciscan 00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:55.500 Lectio, that certainly did. And Pope Francis 00:03:55.500 --> 00:03:57.719 is quoted thoroughly throughout that book. But 00:03:57.719 --> 00:04:00.219 one thing is sure, I mean, attending the Franciscan 00:04:00.219 --> 00:04:03.939 School of Theology and studying the Pope's encyclicals, 00:04:03.939 --> 00:04:08.039 like Fratelli Tutti and Laudato Si, that was 00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:11.000 an incredible gift that I do not believe I fully 00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:14.080 grasp. So, you know, like most, I have my own 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:18.209 qualms with the Catholic Church. things certain. 00:04:18.269 --> 00:04:20.889 I mean, returning to my Catholic roots and discovering 00:04:20.889 --> 00:04:24.709 the expansiveness of Franciscan theology was 00:04:24.709 --> 00:04:27.569 certainly made easier for me when the person 00:04:27.569 --> 00:04:30.209 at the head of the church was leading in such 00:04:30.209 --> 00:04:33.689 a loving, compassionate, and non -dualistic way. 00:04:33.910 --> 00:04:38.050 And for that, I am incredibly grateful. So rest 00:04:38.050 --> 00:04:41.129 in peace, Pope Francis, and I pray that we can 00:04:41.129 --> 00:04:43.269 take this Pope's wisdom and more than anything, 00:04:43.410 --> 00:04:46.970 like St. Francis of Assisi, his heart. into our 00:04:46.970 --> 00:04:51.410 lives and walks of faith. So kicking off this 00:04:51.410 --> 00:04:54.629 special episode is a 2021 recording featuring 00:04:54.629 --> 00:04:58.089 Sister Margaret Carney, talking about the Franciscan 00:04:58.089 --> 00:05:05.269 undertones of Pope Francis's papacy. I hope that 00:05:05.269 --> 00:05:09.149 Pope Francis impacts every Franciscan living 00:05:09.149 --> 00:05:12.490 on the planet right now, from the tips of our 00:05:12.490 --> 00:05:16.399 toes to the crown of our heads. I honestly believe 00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:20.879 that God has placed him with the grace of this 00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:25.560 office in the world at this time to summon us 00:05:25.560 --> 00:05:31.259 to the deepest possible understanding and willingness 00:05:31.259 --> 00:05:36.339 to be banner bearers of the full mission of Francis 00:05:36.339 --> 00:05:40.660 for living the gospel and healing the planet 00:05:40.660 --> 00:05:45.449 and healing humanity. These are the messages, 00:05:45.550 --> 00:05:50.709 the joy of the gospel, laudato si, fratelli tutti, 00:05:51.029 --> 00:05:54.410 everything that Pope Francis has committed to 00:05:54.410 --> 00:05:59.069 as his principal messages to the world are a 00:05:59.069 --> 00:06:02.370 reflection of the teaching of Francis of Assisi. 00:06:02.910 --> 00:06:07.709 And I believe that as Franciscans, we should 00:06:07.709 --> 00:06:13.509 waste not a moment of our time not becoming thoroughly 00:06:13.509 --> 00:06:18.370 imbued with those teachings, understanding them, 00:06:18.589 --> 00:06:22.310 analyzing them, reflecting, making applications 00:06:22.310 --> 00:06:26.110 to our own culture and society, understanding 00:06:26.110 --> 00:06:30.069 what will be offensive to our culture and society 00:06:30.069 --> 00:06:33.829 and how do we reconcile some of that tension. 00:06:34.089 --> 00:06:37.769 But I really believe that Pope Francis is, in 00:06:37.769 --> 00:06:42.339 a sense, handing us a charter. for what Brian 00:06:42.339 --> 00:06:46.920 McLaren calls a Franciscan Renaissance. And so 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:49.959 in addition to these great medieval texts and 00:06:49.959 --> 00:06:53.740 the inspirations of ever so many writings about 00:06:53.740 --> 00:06:58.699 and by early Franciscan saints, we have a pope 00:06:58.699 --> 00:07:03.560 who stands up every day and calls the world to 00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:06.379 honor the message of Francis. And when you look 00:07:06.379 --> 00:07:10.319 at the photograph, of Pope Francis signing this 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:14.500 latest encyclical literally beneath the tomb 00:07:14.500 --> 00:07:18.540 of St. Francis. How can we mistake the symbolism? 00:07:19.180 --> 00:07:22.519 He could have signed it in his office in Rome. 00:07:23.100 --> 00:07:27.220 He is trying to tell us the voice of your father 00:07:27.220 --> 00:07:32.379 Francis of Assisi is the voice your brother Francis 00:07:32.379 --> 00:07:36.779 of Rome is trying to make alive again. I think 00:07:36.779 --> 00:07:40.420 it is so exciting. It is such a blessing for 00:07:40.420 --> 00:07:43.360 us. With all the stresses and pain we might have, 00:07:43.579 --> 00:07:47.959 whether tensions within the church, tensions 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:52.279 within the politics of our society, he is one 00:07:52.279 --> 00:07:55.360 brilliantly shining ray of hope for all of us. 00:08:04.750 --> 00:08:07.870 Next is Father Murray Bodo, reflecting on when 00:08:07.870 --> 00:08:11.750 Jorge Mario Bergoglio took the name Francis when 00:08:11.750 --> 00:08:18.930 he was elected Bishop of Rome. I'm so happy and 00:08:18.930 --> 00:08:24.360 proud to be recording this podcast. Two days 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:28.399 after Pope Francis has passed into heaven, he 00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:33.080 was such an icon and a major figure in my life 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:37.679 as a Franciscan and just as an ordinary human 00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:46.559 being. He was so great. And I was in Assisi when 00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:50.860 he made his first visit to Assisi. And it was 00:08:50.860 --> 00:08:54.639 such a thrill to me. They had... great big screens 00:08:54.639 --> 00:08:58.940 all over the city and i was sitting in front 00:08:58.940 --> 00:09:02.820 of one of the the screens in the evening and 00:09:02.820 --> 00:09:06.600 there was a interview with him and he was talking 00:09:06.600 --> 00:09:10.919 about how we got the name francis and he said 00:09:10.919 --> 00:09:14.120 that one of the bishops came up and whispered 00:09:14.120 --> 00:09:18.179 in his ear when they came up to greet him don't 00:09:18.179 --> 00:09:24.019 forget the poor and uh Pope Francis said, boom, 00:09:24.299 --> 00:09:27.759 just like that. He said, boom, Francis of Assisi. 00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:31.980 I knew my name. He hadn't planned on that name 00:09:31.980 --> 00:09:37.940 before. And, of course, hearing that, in Assisi, 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:43.519 and he just was such a Franciscan at heart. In 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:50.200 fact, the Romans that I talked to earlier, the 00:09:50.200 --> 00:09:56.120 Roman people, they said he has a jesuit mind 00:09:56.120 --> 00:10:00.240 and a franciscan heart and that's a good combination 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:04.799 and he never called himself pope it was always 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:08.720 the bishop of rome and he was totally devoted 00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:13.700 to the people shortly after he had been in office 00:10:13.700 --> 00:10:17.519 i think it was a month i was in rome and i was 00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:22.259 in a taxi And I was rushing to get to a meeting 00:10:22.259 --> 00:10:27.179 of our pilgrimage programs. And I said to the 00:10:27.179 --> 00:10:34.159 cab driver, how do you like your new pope? Silence. 00:10:34.519 --> 00:10:39.340 I thought, oh boy, I'm in some political difficulty 00:10:39.340 --> 00:10:43.559 here or something. And then after about three 00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:49.269 minutes, he said, no, we don't have a pope. we 00:10:49.269 --> 00:10:55.490 have a pastor and that touched me so deeply because 00:10:55.490 --> 00:11:01.350 they looked upon him as their pastor and he embraced 00:11:01.350 --> 00:11:06.120 that that is how he envisioned himself but he 00:11:06.120 --> 00:11:11.000 was so franciscan even his book laudato si that's 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:13.600 taken from the canticle of the creatures the 00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:17.039 first words of francis praised be you my lord 00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:23.419 laudato si mi signore it's just so it was so 00:11:23.419 --> 00:11:28.240 wonderful and what he has done to keep the poor 00:11:28.809 --> 00:11:33.129 at the foreground of the church is just the dream 00:11:33.129 --> 00:11:38.690 of every Franciscan heart. And of course, I had 00:11:38.690 --> 00:11:43.610 all kinds of reasons to love him. He was a northern 00:11:43.610 --> 00:11:49.029 Italian immigrant to Argentina. My parents were 00:11:49.029 --> 00:11:53.740 northern Italian immigrants. to america and the 00:11:53.740 --> 00:11:57.279 things he talked about the italian things his 00:11:57.279 --> 00:12:03.240 his his sense of joy i loved that he had a sense 00:12:03.240 --> 00:12:06.460 of humor he didn't take himself too seriously 00:12:06.460 --> 00:12:13.340 so it's it's a great loss because uh he had he 00:12:13.340 --> 00:12:18.080 was he was a force to be reckoned with in fact 00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:22.370 they made four or five movies maybe more i heard 00:12:22.370 --> 00:12:27.830 six that could be on his life and of course the 00:12:27.830 --> 00:12:34.230 two popes which is a fiction but a fiction with 00:12:34.230 --> 00:12:38.590 a lot a lot of truth in it and uh so we're going 00:12:38.590 --> 00:12:42.789 to miss him i'm going to miss him but uh he left 00:12:42.789 --> 00:12:49.029 a legacy for us not to forget the poor. He just, 00:12:49.250 --> 00:12:56.110 to the end, I think he held on. He was so sick, 00:12:56.149 --> 00:12:59.570 I thought he was going to die earlier, but I 00:12:59.570 --> 00:13:03.509 knew he's going to hold on until after Easter, 00:13:03.649 --> 00:13:07.330 and he's going to make an appearance no matter 00:13:07.330 --> 00:13:11.490 what it takes, and he did. I would love to be 00:13:11.490 --> 00:13:14.899 in Rome for the funeral. But I have no doubt, 00:13:15.019 --> 00:13:19.200 like so many people who are listening to me now, 00:13:19.419 --> 00:13:24.220 don't worry about that. He'll come and visit 00:13:24.220 --> 00:13:28.299 you if you want him to. He'll be there for us, 00:13:28.379 --> 00:13:33.580 and he'll be a great intercessory prayer and 00:13:33.580 --> 00:13:41.129 person in our lives. That clip is from a soon 00:13:41.129 --> 00:13:43.289 to be published episode of Off the Page where 00:13:43.289 --> 00:13:45.509 I interviewed Father Murray about his new poetry 00:13:45.509 --> 00:13:49.529 book, Brother Wind and Air. I love that story 00:13:49.529 --> 00:13:51.730 that Father Murray shared about the cab driver, 00:13:51.870 --> 00:13:54.809 the quote, we don't have a pope, we have a pastor. 00:13:54.950 --> 00:13:58.009 I found that really powerful. So I invite you 00:13:58.009 --> 00:14:01.169 to take some time with that quote and maybe not 00:14:01.169 --> 00:14:04.870 only the quote itself, but also the silence from 00:14:04.870 --> 00:14:08.289 which this quote flowed from. I think that story 00:14:08.289 --> 00:14:12.289 speaks wonders about Pope Francis's non -hierarchical 00:14:12.289 --> 00:14:15.990 approach to leadership. even in an institution 00:14:15.990 --> 00:14:19.230 as hierarchical as the Catholic Church, as well 00:14:19.230 --> 00:14:22.090 as his down -to -earth mode of being and ministry. 00:14:22.889 --> 00:14:26.169 So, next up is a clip from our interview with 00:14:26.169 --> 00:14:29.210 Dr. Daniel P. Horan, which was published at the 00:14:29.210 --> 00:14:32.330 beginning of 2025. In this clip, you'll hear 00:14:32.330 --> 00:14:34.870 Dan and I talk about the difficulty of accepting 00:14:34.870 --> 00:14:38.230 God's love for us, which led him to reflect on 00:14:38.230 --> 00:14:40.590 what has been called Pope Francis' mission statement 00:14:40.590 --> 00:14:48.559 when he was elected Bishop of Rome. Why is it 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:52.679 so difficult to accept God's love in your opinion? 00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:56.679 Man, I... You have like an hour left, right? 00:14:56.919 --> 00:15:00.379 I know, right? How many hours do we have? Yeah, 00:15:00.379 --> 00:15:02.080 well, you know, I often go back to something 00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:05.840 Pope Francis said in April of 2013. This was 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:07.840 when he, you know, he was newly elected Bishop 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:11.440 of Rome, and the actual kind of cathedral of 00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:13.500 the Diocese of Rome is the Lateran Basilica. 00:15:13.539 --> 00:15:15.440 And so every new pope, you know, they become 00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:17.200 Pope the Knight of the Conclave and all this. 00:15:17.419 --> 00:15:22.289 But then there's a formal kind of... installation 00:15:22.289 --> 00:15:25.070 as the Bishop of Rome, as the Pope, right? And 00:15:25.070 --> 00:15:27.090 that takes place at the Lateran Basilica, and 00:15:27.090 --> 00:15:28.950 there is the cathedra, the chair of the bishop 00:15:28.950 --> 00:15:31.690 there. And so him celebrating mass there, sitting 00:15:31.690 --> 00:15:34.169 in that chair, this was all part of it. And Pope 00:15:34.169 --> 00:15:37.090 Francis, in that particular liturgy, gave a homily 00:15:37.090 --> 00:15:40.370 where I and others, I'm not original in thinking 00:15:40.370 --> 00:15:43.210 this way, have talked about this as kind of Pope 00:15:43.210 --> 00:15:45.490 Francis announcing his mission statement. And 00:15:45.490 --> 00:15:48.149 here we can, you know, more than a decade now, 00:15:48.230 --> 00:15:50.799 look back and see that this is kind of... par 00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:53.500 for the course, which is all about mercy. And 00:15:53.500 --> 00:15:55.740 I think, you know, to your point, why is it so 00:15:55.740 --> 00:15:57.960 hard to accept God's love? I think it's because 00:15:57.960 --> 00:16:00.139 fundamentally we don't believe that we're worthy 00:16:00.139 --> 00:16:02.279 of it, that we need to do something. And part 00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:04.980 of that, if not most of that, I think is conditioned 00:16:04.980 --> 00:16:09.220 by our experience of such qualified love in our 00:16:09.220 --> 00:16:12.960 human relationships, even those in our families 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:15.460 where there might be the closest thing in healthy 00:16:15.460 --> 00:16:18.279 family relationships to an unconditional love. 00:16:18.889 --> 00:16:20.750 If we're honest, even that becomes conditioned. 00:16:20.830 --> 00:16:23.809 We're never 100 % sure that something in our 00:16:23.809 --> 00:16:26.169 life or a fight that breaks out, a disagreement, 00:16:26.370 --> 00:16:29.809 a disagreement about perspective or politics 00:16:29.809 --> 00:16:32.529 or you name it, wouldn't be the thing, that straw 00:16:32.529 --> 00:16:34.429 that breaks the camel's back of that relationship. 00:16:34.610 --> 00:16:38.149 There's always just that edge of the precipice. 00:16:38.590 --> 00:16:42.590 And so if we take that experience of conditioned 00:16:42.590 --> 00:16:46.250 love, of qualified love in this life, All we 00:16:46.250 --> 00:16:48.269 have to talk about God and understand God is 00:16:48.269 --> 00:16:50.970 our human experiences and language. We know that 00:16:50.970 --> 00:16:53.509 God is incomprehensible, but yet God is knowable. 00:16:53.590 --> 00:16:56.570 We can talk about God, but we do so analogously. 00:16:56.590 --> 00:16:59.289 We do so somewhat removed. And so I think when 00:16:59.289 --> 00:17:02.070 we're thinking this way, we have no choice, no 00:17:02.070 --> 00:17:04.450 recourse, but to draw from our experience of 00:17:04.450 --> 00:17:06.990 human love. I think it's harder for people who 00:17:06.990 --> 00:17:10.349 have felt an absence of that close to unconditional 00:17:10.349 --> 00:17:13.329 love. It doesn't mean that even those who have 00:17:13.789 --> 00:17:17.289 can accept God's love completely. And what Pope 00:17:17.289 --> 00:17:20.069 Francis says in that homily has always stayed 00:17:20.069 --> 00:17:21.849 with me. I'm going to paraphrase it here is that 00:17:21.849 --> 00:17:24.710 he says, God doesn't actually want anything from 00:17:24.710 --> 00:17:27.609 you. God is already there. All God wants you 00:17:27.609 --> 00:17:30.450 to do is turn to God. I've always visualized 00:17:30.450 --> 00:17:32.549 this as like you're facing one direction and 00:17:32.549 --> 00:17:35.470 God is like literally standing behind you. You 00:17:35.470 --> 00:17:37.329 don't have to pay anything. You don't have to 00:17:37.329 --> 00:17:40.950 do anything, but turn toward God. Just turn around 00:17:40.950 --> 00:17:43.660 in the fear. that we're going to be rejected 00:17:43.660 --> 00:17:46.519 or overlooked or minimized or what have you that 00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:48.460 we carry with us from our earthly relationships, 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:51.380 I think inhibits too many people from just turning. 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:54.460 That's all. Francis says, don't, literally, that's 00:17:54.460 --> 00:17:57.619 it. God will take care of the rest. And how few 00:17:57.619 --> 00:18:00.000 of us are able to turn around. I know I struggle 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:01.980 with that, right? It goes back to the true self. 00:18:02.140 --> 00:18:04.299 It goes back to Francis of Assisi's notion of 00:18:04.299 --> 00:18:06.799 who we are before God. And so we're always in 00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:08.819 a process of becoming, you know, becoming more 00:18:08.819 --> 00:18:11.859 who we are, or maybe to borrow that. Mertonian 00:18:11.859 --> 00:18:14.200 language, maybe becoming less of who we are in 00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:17.680 that spirit of the false self. But I do believe 00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:21.519 that God, I trust what Pope Francis says, God's 00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:23.720 mercy is there. It's just a matter of us turning 00:18:23.720 --> 00:18:26.380 to God. It's just a matter of us accepting that 00:18:26.380 --> 00:18:28.680 love, which to some people sounds, you know, 00:18:28.700 --> 00:18:32.380 probably like, you know, too theoretical or abstract 00:18:32.380 --> 00:18:35.720 or too, you know, touchy -feely or what have 00:18:35.720 --> 00:18:38.980 you. But I think is that not what Jesus's message 00:18:38.980 --> 00:18:42.099 was all about? It was made concrete and present 00:18:42.099 --> 00:18:44.579 by his outreach and his inclusion, his invitation. 00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:47.079 What does that say to us about how we move through 00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:49.099 the world? What does it say to us about how we 00:18:49.099 --> 00:18:51.599 understand ourselves? And I think that combination 00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:56.059 of Rahner and Merton and Francis and Jesus' own 00:18:56.059 --> 00:18:59.279 message in the Gospels has invited me to continue 00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:02.160 to recognize that it's not a one and done, that 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:04.220 we're always in a process of becoming. So maybe 00:19:04.220 --> 00:19:06.900 that's probably a good place to end, you know, 00:19:06.900 --> 00:19:08.680 because we're continuing to journey forward. 00:19:13.640 --> 00:19:16.680 This reflection from Dan Horan about Pope Francis' 00:19:16.900 --> 00:19:20.079 mission statement leads me to contemplate my 00:19:20.079 --> 00:19:22.839 own mission statement in life, in leadership, 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:26.460 in the day -to -day. Is God's love and mercy 00:19:26.460 --> 00:19:30.460 at the foundation of my own mission? And how 00:19:30.460 --> 00:19:33.279 can the way Pope Francis lived this out inspire 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:38.490 and challenge me and us today? This next clip 00:19:38.490 --> 00:19:41.269 is a brief one from Sister Margaret Carney. This 00:19:41.269 --> 00:19:45.009 episode was published in February 2025, and the 00:19:45.009 --> 00:19:47.950 episode really honed in on St. Clair of Assisi's 00:19:47.950 --> 00:19:50.549 approach to leadership. This led to a really 00:19:50.549 --> 00:19:53.470 wonderful comment from Sister Margaret about 00:19:53.470 --> 00:19:56.490 Pope Francis's great skill as a communicator, 00:19:56.549 --> 00:20:00.369 which is important for any kind of leader. Enjoy. 00:20:03.980 --> 00:20:06.759 I heard a wonderful statement yesterday by Gerard 00:20:06.759 --> 00:20:10.119 O 'Connell, a Vatican journalist, who said, Pope 00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:16.119 Francis is not saying anything different in principle 00:20:16.119 --> 00:20:21.039 about the economy, the greed of the ultra -rich, 00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:24.119 the danger to the environment. He said Benedict 00:20:24.119 --> 00:20:29.680 said it. John Paul II said it. But Francis uses 00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:35.839 language ordinary people relate to. And now people 00:20:35.839 --> 00:20:37.819 are like, did you hear what the Pope said? Well, 00:20:37.859 --> 00:20:41.900 guess what? It's been said for 25 years. But 00:20:41.900 --> 00:20:45.400 that's how he disrupts things, because he will 00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:47.940 use a turn of phrase that you're like, Pope Francis 00:20:47.940 --> 00:20:51.299 said that, you know? He doesn't speak Vaticanese. 00:20:52.859 --> 00:20:56.319 He speaks the language of people. And so I think 00:20:56.319 --> 00:21:00.299 he's a good example in our time of someone with 00:21:00.299 --> 00:21:04.289 his vast Jesuit education. who can relate to 00:21:04.289 --> 00:21:06.849 the highest levels of authority but sit with 00:21:06.849 --> 00:21:11.549 a farmer or a sick child or a struggling parent 00:21:11.549 --> 00:21:19.650 and get right in there with them This next clip 00:21:19.650 --> 00:21:22.309 is a lengthier one from Brother Keith Warner, 00:21:22.569 --> 00:21:25.490 Franciscan friar, scholar, professor, and author 00:21:25.490 --> 00:21:27.730 of the award -winning book, Care for Creation. 00:21:28.170 --> 00:21:31.069 In this clip, Brother Keith talks about his own 00:21:31.069 --> 00:21:34.170 mission in ministry, which was confirmed seven 00:21:34.170 --> 00:21:36.869 years ago in a pilgrimage to Greccio, Italy. 00:21:37.470 --> 00:21:40.890 And in this, he unpacks the depth and principles 00:21:40.890 --> 00:21:44.710 of Pope Francis' encyclical, Laudato Si', and 00:21:44.710 --> 00:21:48.009 what Brother Keith calls the, quote, most Franciscan 00:21:48.009 --> 00:21:50.650 encyclical. Encyclical Ever. This episode was 00:21:50.650 --> 00:21:54.049 published in December 2024, and it's a wonderful 00:21:54.049 --> 00:21:56.789 exchange about the lasting call and challenge 00:21:56.789 --> 00:22:00.349 of Pope Francis' encyclicals like Laudato Si. 00:22:00.490 --> 00:22:08.529 Enjoy. You wrote in the preface about how you 00:22:08.529 --> 00:22:11.670 spent a lot of time contemplating Laudato Si 00:22:11.670 --> 00:22:16.369 in 2017 while in Greccio. What impact did that 00:22:16.369 --> 00:22:19.650 encyclical have on your life and your work and 00:22:19.650 --> 00:22:22.609 what opened up for you during that time in Greccio? 00:22:25.670 --> 00:22:28.869 Well, so there had been rumors about Laudato 00:22:28.869 --> 00:22:31.410 Si as an environmental encyclical when it first, 00:22:31.529 --> 00:22:35.930 from the beginning of Pope Francis' pontificate. 00:22:35.950 --> 00:22:39.150 And so at one point I got a Skype call, yes, 00:22:39.190 --> 00:22:42.089 back when we used to use Skype, from a Franciscan. 00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:45.079 friend of mine who was in rome and he had heard 00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:48.140 a story of there being a general audience between 00:22:48.140 --> 00:22:50.400 the leadership of the franciscan order with the 00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:53.299 pope and presumably cardinal turkson and those 00:22:53.299 --> 00:22:55.500 who were involved in writing laudato si and the 00:22:55.500 --> 00:22:57.920 pope asked if there were any franciscans who 00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:05.230 had written about this and our minister general 00:23:05.230 --> 00:23:07.390 said oh yes keith warner you should get some 00:23:07.390 --> 00:23:10.069 of his things so so i'd heard he told me this 00:23:10.069 --> 00:23:11.789 friend of mine told me that this had happened 00:23:11.789 --> 00:23:15.549 in a papal audience like really that sounds like 00:23:15.549 --> 00:23:19.250 no big deal i'm like i read it from cover to 00:23:19.250 --> 00:23:21.549 cover right there it's like oh i didn't make 00:23:21.549 --> 00:23:27.589 the footnotes now in reality you know uh this 00:23:27.589 --> 00:23:33.589 the this book here is quoted. This is a book 00:23:33.589 --> 00:23:37.170 about Francis of Assisi early documents, so this 00:23:37.170 --> 00:23:41.009 book is quoted properly, and clearly the people 00:23:41.009 --> 00:23:46.329 who wrote the encyclical knew, or I'm sure drafted 00:23:46.329 --> 00:23:49.450 it before Pope Francis wrote it. They knew this 00:23:49.450 --> 00:23:53.869 well. Fun fact, Peter Cardinal Turkson, who was 00:23:53.869 --> 00:23:56.549 the head of the Dicastery for Integral Human 00:23:56.549 --> 00:24:00.599 Development, did an extra... theology graduate 00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:03.480 degree at a conventional seminary in upstate 00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:06.259 New York. So he got exposed to the Franciscan 00:24:06.259 --> 00:24:09.559 tradition, even though he was a diocesan priest 00:24:09.559 --> 00:24:14.519 originally from Ghana. So, yeah, sure, I was 00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:18.380 on my 25th anniversary in Greccio in Franciscan 00:24:18.380 --> 00:24:20.799 Italy in 2017. But perhaps more importantly, 00:24:20.940 --> 00:24:23.779 I read Laudato Si. I mean, I just carried it 00:24:23.779 --> 00:24:27.259 in my pack everywhere I went, and I read it dozens 00:24:27.259 --> 00:24:31.819 of times. And so I would teach from it in every 00:24:31.819 --> 00:24:37.460 class. But, you know, so I was there on kind 00:24:37.460 --> 00:24:39.559 of on the side of the cliff looking out over 00:24:39.559 --> 00:24:45.759 the Rieti Valley. And I would say that it's a 00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:50.200 beautiful location. This is, of course, where 00:24:50.200 --> 00:24:56.859 Francis had his experiences. praying the creche 00:24:56.859 --> 00:25:02.539 and kind of really founding the process of Franciscan 00:25:02.539 --> 00:25:06.480 devotion to the nativity. That's where the record 00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:09.720 shows that this took place. But there's this 00:25:09.720 --> 00:25:11.980 little catwalk that wrapped around the back of 00:25:11.980 --> 00:25:13.559 the friary that you could only get to through 00:25:13.559 --> 00:25:17.019 the cloister. And so I was walking back there 00:25:17.019 --> 00:25:20.759 and reading passages from Laudato Si. praying 00:25:20.759 --> 00:25:23.859 and looking at the valley of considerable beauty. 00:25:24.039 --> 00:25:26.720 And I thought, and it came to me like the balance 00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:30.119 of my religious life is to translate Laudato 00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:34.160 Si from text into life. And so that's what I 00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:36.579 do. That is kind of like a call within a call 00:25:36.579 --> 00:25:39.940 or a clarification. That was seven years ago. 00:25:39.980 --> 00:25:41.359 But I would just say more recently, it's like, 00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:43.900 well, Pope Francis is coming up with so many 00:25:43.900 --> 00:25:46.039 different ideas now. It's sort of like synodality, 00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:50.059 Fratelli Tutti. I mean, A lot of, most Franciscan 00:25:50.059 --> 00:25:52.160 friars are really all in on the agenda of Pope 00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:54.779 Francis and his efforts at renewal and really 00:25:54.779 --> 00:25:58.000 bringing, fostering conversion in the world. 00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:01.299 And I'm also just conscious of last year, Pope 00:26:01.299 --> 00:26:04.440 Francis wrote Laudate Deum, which was, really 00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:06.980 didn't add too much to the teachings of Laudate 00:26:06.980 --> 00:26:10.359 Si, but again, read the footnotes. Here's the 00:26:10.359 --> 00:26:13.180 scholar in me, like he cited the U .S. bishops 00:26:13.180 --> 00:26:19.079 very early on, saying what was called for. And 00:26:19.079 --> 00:26:21.759 then at the end, he said, you know, we can do 00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:25.039 this as long as we repent from like U .S. style 00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:29.559 lifestyles and degrees of consumption. Those 00:26:29.559 --> 00:26:31.740 were like, you know, footnotes are political. 00:26:31.859 --> 00:26:35.339 And so those those were messages that were not 00:26:35.339 --> 00:26:41.160 like direct. But if you if you want to get if 00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:43.099 you want to understand what the pope is thinking 00:26:43.099 --> 00:26:46.440 about, he's like saying the America you need 00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:49.500 to lead here. And so right now it seems like 00:26:49.500 --> 00:26:54.559 we're gearing up to lead in reverse. So this 00:26:54.559 --> 00:26:58.319 is like we are headed on the wrong path in this 00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:01.599 country, according to the moral teachings of 00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:07.180 Pope Francis. And what's called for is repentance 00:27:07.180 --> 00:27:14.259 and conversion. And I happily and joyfully join 00:27:14.259 --> 00:27:17.190 with any... one in the church who recognizes 00:27:17.190 --> 00:27:23.230 the need for that conversion. But this is not 00:27:23.230 --> 00:27:28.029 a concern of many people in America. And so this 00:27:28.029 --> 00:27:31.109 is where this message of conversion is really 00:27:31.109 --> 00:27:34.130 so important. And it's really like, we have to 00:27:34.130 --> 00:27:37.289 take it seriously. We have to act on it. And 00:27:37.289 --> 00:27:41.849 that's what's called for. And that's called for 00:27:41.849 --> 00:27:46.859 by Pope Francis, by Laudato Si. by Franciscans 00:27:46.859 --> 00:27:51.160 around the world, you know, clear on this, but 00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:54.099 it's not a message that people want to hear or 00:27:54.099 --> 00:27:58.579 act on. Yeah. Why is that, do you think? Well, 00:27:58.660 --> 00:28:01.599 greed, selfishness, individualism, these blind 00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:05.460 us to others. And that's, you know, Pope Francis 00:28:05.460 --> 00:28:09.279 introduced this concept of integral ecology, 00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:12.440 which is like this holistic understanding of 00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:15.450 human beings. in relationship to God, each other, 00:28:15.529 --> 00:28:19.289 and creation, and kind of growing in our awareness, 00:28:19.509 --> 00:28:23.769 our spiritual awareness of the need for balanced 00:28:23.769 --> 00:28:26.549 and healthy give -and -take relationships. It 00:28:26.549 --> 00:28:28.569 doesn't mean we can't cut down a tree, but we 00:28:28.569 --> 00:28:31.630 shouldn't remove entire forests. It doesn't mean 00:28:31.630 --> 00:28:35.170 that we have to go back to living in caves, but 00:28:35.170 --> 00:28:38.390 if we adopted a lifestyle that was moderate, 00:28:38.549 --> 00:28:41.690 sober, as Pope Francis said, simple and sober, 00:28:42.089 --> 00:28:45.589 we would work our way out of this mess. But we're 00:28:45.589 --> 00:28:48.789 too addicted to our stuff, to our power, to our 00:28:48.789 --> 00:28:51.349 ability to decide for ourselves, and we're too 00:28:51.349 --> 00:28:53.349 indifferent to the suffering that this causes. 00:28:53.509 --> 00:28:55.849 One of my favorite quotes from Thomas Merton, 00:28:56.009 --> 00:29:00.690 he's writing, he says something along the lines 00:29:00.690 --> 00:29:04.210 of, for many, and he's talking about Americans, 00:29:04.490 --> 00:29:06.589 and he says something along the lines of, for 00:29:06.589 --> 00:29:11.309 many, a tree has no reality until they cut it 00:29:11.309 --> 00:29:14.640 down. It's something along those – and I think 00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:18.779 he's getting at this need in the American mindset, 00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:21.160 at least the way I interpret it, this need in 00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:23.980 the American mindset to commodify things, to 00:29:23.980 --> 00:29:27.240 – and he plays a lot with this. Like, hey, we'll 00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:30.019 plant a tree in the city, but we have to dedicate 00:29:30.019 --> 00:29:33.880 it to the mayor. There always has to be some 00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:38.599 kind of meaning attached. But in Franciscan spirituality 00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:41.880 and in contemplative spirituality – A lot of 00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:44.019 it comes down to relationality. You know, like 00:29:44.019 --> 00:29:46.779 this tree isn't something for me to commodify, 00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:49.619 something for me to give it meaning because I've 00:29:49.619 --> 00:29:53.180 cut it down now. This tree speaks to me. It speaks 00:29:53.180 --> 00:29:57.460 truth to me about who God is and how we are to 00:29:57.460 --> 00:30:01.519 renew the earth and be converted in the process. 00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:07.519 What are your thoughts on that? 2025 is both 00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:11.059 the 10th anniversary of Laudato Si. But it's 00:30:11.059 --> 00:30:13.240 also the 800th anniversary of the Canticle of 00:30:13.240 --> 00:30:17.380 the Creatures. And so, of course, many of the 00:30:17.380 --> 00:30:19.599 listeners to this podcast would be familiar with 00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:21.599 the canticle and probably singing it in church 00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:24.880 and familiar with many of its lines. And certainly 00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:27.400 it is a beautiful and inspirational song. It 00:30:27.400 --> 00:30:31.220 gives voice to a Franciscan care for creation 00:30:31.220 --> 00:30:36.140 in a most beautiful way. But this is another 00:30:36.140 --> 00:30:38.900 text that's really worth kind of studying. and 00:30:38.900 --> 00:30:45.200 reflecting upon. I believe it's Ilya, but I'm 00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:47.559 not sure. To be honest, I don't remember the 00:30:47.559 --> 00:30:50.680 source, but I think Ilya refers to it as a Christic 00:30:50.680 --> 00:30:54.680 hymn, meaning a hymn that references Christ, 00:30:54.799 --> 00:30:57.359 and then she explains it. I'm not sure it's in 00:30:57.359 --> 00:31:00.640 this book, but I'm pretty sure she's talked about 00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:04.940 it in this way. So I think that is really like, 00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:11.819 other people say that it is It is a metaphysical 00:31:11.819 --> 00:31:16.220 statement. Okay, there's a $20 word. So it's 00:31:16.220 --> 00:31:19.799 sort of like describing reality that Francis 00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:24.240 perceived, not using advanced philosophical technical 00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:27.359 language, but as a song from the heart emerging 00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:30.740 from his contemplative love of creation and his 00:31:30.740 --> 00:31:34.720 experience of God in creation. It's also, for 00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:40.380 example, the first... song in modern Italian. 00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:45.779 So it's not exactly that. I mean, it's unusual 00:31:45.779 --> 00:31:49.339 as reverting to the encyclical. The encyclical 00:31:49.339 --> 00:31:55.240 is from this kind of middle -aged medieval Umbrian. 00:31:55.359 --> 00:31:58.079 It's not from Latin. Almost every other encyclical 00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:01.299 I know has the first words are from the Latin. 00:32:01.420 --> 00:32:07.069 And this one is from medieval Umbrian. So that's 00:32:07.069 --> 00:32:10.609 so interesting that the Pope decided to kind 00:32:10.609 --> 00:32:16.309 of deviate, as it were, from tradition in order 00:32:16.309 --> 00:32:19.150 to embrace this and embrace it as a wisdom text. 00:32:19.390 --> 00:32:22.150 So there, you know, again, I'm thinking about 00:32:22.150 --> 00:32:27.789 this relationality that's in the canticle. It's 00:32:27.789 --> 00:32:31.670 really, I think, helpful for understanding Francis, 00:32:31.769 --> 00:32:35.450 who used the term brother hundreds of times. 00:32:36.359 --> 00:32:41.299 And then that sort of gives me the perspective, 00:32:41.480 --> 00:32:44.619 and I hope you and your listeners as well, it's 00:32:44.619 --> 00:32:48.200 all about family. And family is the root metaphor 00:32:48.200 --> 00:32:50.339 here for understanding Francis' relationship 00:32:50.339 --> 00:32:54.119 to other people and to Earth and to creation 00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:57.859 and to God. So it's all about always being in 00:32:57.859 --> 00:33:01.039 relationship and thinking about others, not in 00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:04.839 this sort of like kind of... doormat, milk toast, 00:33:05.220 --> 00:33:08.839 I don't belong here, not in that kind of sense, 00:33:08.980 --> 00:33:12.400 but as a part of the family around the celebratory 00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:16.859 table or on the outing together or, you know, 00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:20.900 holding hands. Those are the kind of images that 00:33:20.900 --> 00:33:23.599 I think are suggested by this, both emerging 00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:27.339 from Francis's own insight, but also from it 00:33:27.339 --> 00:33:30.740 speaks to us today and it's available to us today 00:33:30.740 --> 00:33:34.529 if we choose. to lean into this way of living, 00:33:34.690 --> 00:33:38.250 this way of seeing, contemplative as an open 00:33:38.250 --> 00:33:44.509 -eyed prayer, this ability to lean into this 00:33:44.509 --> 00:33:49.410 as we gaze upon this kind of great tragedy of 00:33:49.410 --> 00:33:52.730 our indifference to creation, our selfishness 00:33:52.730 --> 00:33:56.750 and consumerism at the expense of it, our hard 00:33:56.750 --> 00:33:59.470 -heartedness towards the very clear suffering 00:33:59.470 --> 00:34:03.500 of creatures that are being pushed to irreversible 00:34:03.500 --> 00:34:06.799 extinction and the suffering of the poor. This 00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:09.619 is the conversion that Loud Out to Sea calls 00:34:09.619 --> 00:34:18.199 us to. I know that clip may have felt straightforward 00:34:18.199 --> 00:34:22.119 or maybe even harsh, you know, as Brother Keith 00:34:22.119 --> 00:34:24.820 calls listeners into environmental conversion. 00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:28.099 But I really thought it was important to include 00:34:28.099 --> 00:34:32.239 here because Not only is Laudato Si' loaded with 00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:35.780 Franciscan wisdom, as is Fratelli Tutti, but 00:34:35.780 --> 00:34:39.199 Pope Francis himself was also unashamed to be 00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:43.059 bold and really call a spade a spade. This kind 00:34:43.059 --> 00:34:46.360 of clear and sometimes provocative communication, 00:34:46.519 --> 00:34:50.019 I think, was so important to Pope Francis as 00:34:50.019 --> 00:34:52.380 he helped move the global church toward progress 00:34:52.380 --> 00:34:56.360 and as he challenged Catholics to adopt an ecological 00:34:56.360 --> 00:34:59.460 consciousness and care for the earth. our common 00:34:59.460 --> 00:35:03.059 home. I cannot recommend enough the book Care 00:35:03.059 --> 00:35:05.840 for Creation, written by Brother Keith, Sister 00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:10.059 Elia Delio, and Pamela Wood. The expanded edition 00:35:10.059 --> 00:35:12.920 of this book was just released and is woven with 00:35:12.920 --> 00:35:16.019 insights and wisdom from Laudato Si' if you'd 00:35:16.019 --> 00:35:19.639 like to learn more about this encyclical. So 00:35:19.639 --> 00:35:22.840 lastly, this final clip includes an exchange 00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:26.500 with the poet Dr. Angela Alimo O'Donnell about 00:35:26.500 --> 00:35:29.360 Pope Francis's deep appreciation for art and 00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:32.139 literature and the opportunity she had a couple 00:35:32.139 --> 00:35:34.880 years ago to meet Pope Francis and share her 00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:37.460 work with him. She has a wonderful article that 00:35:37.460 --> 00:35:39.820 just came out in America that I highly recommend. 00:35:39.960 --> 00:35:42.480 I'll link to that in the show notes. And this 00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:45.099 is also from an episode that will be published 00:35:45.099 --> 00:35:48.420 later this year. So without further ado, here 00:35:48.420 --> 00:35:55.500 is Dr. Angela Alimo O'Donnell. So we're recording 00:35:55.500 --> 00:36:00.599 this on April 25th. So this is four days after 00:36:00.599 --> 00:36:03.639 Pope Francis passed away. And you have an article 00:36:03.639 --> 00:36:05.960 coming out any minute you mentioned before we 00:36:05.960 --> 00:36:09.320 hit record in America, where you write about 00:36:09.320 --> 00:36:12.619 your love for Pope Francis and the time you were 00:36:12.619 --> 00:36:15.960 graced to meet him. So there's a really... wonderful 00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:18.000 story behind that I'd love for you to get into. 00:36:18.059 --> 00:36:20.860 Can you tell us that story about meeting him 00:36:20.860 --> 00:36:24.300 and then also about what stood out to you about 00:36:24.300 --> 00:36:27.719 his own love and appreciation for art? Yeah, 00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:31.239 absolutely. This is a memory that goes back to 00:36:31.239 --> 00:36:35.920 almost two years, to May of 2023. My center was 00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:40.239 sponsoring a conference in Rome for writers, 00:36:40.460 --> 00:36:43.159 Catholic writers from around the world, along 00:36:43.159 --> 00:36:45.980 with Georgetown University, Città Cattolica, 00:36:46.119 --> 00:36:50.000 the great Italian Jesuit journal, and also the 00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:54.139 Hanks Center at Loyola. Chicago. So we invited 00:36:54.139 --> 00:36:56.960 40, there were between 40 and 60 writers who 00:36:56.960 --> 00:37:00.280 came to Rome and spent several days reading to 00:37:00.280 --> 00:37:03.059 each other. And we're very happy to find out 00:37:03.059 --> 00:37:05.880 that Pope Francis heard about our conference 00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:09.699 from one of our sponsors, Antonio Spadaro, who 00:37:09.699 --> 00:37:12.880 is a fellow Jesuit, and Pope Francis wanted to 00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:15.619 address us. So he wrote an address just for us. 00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:19.139 And then he invited us to the Vatican to hear 00:37:19.139 --> 00:37:24.260 the address as part of a... delegation, an audience, 00:37:24.360 --> 00:37:26.940 but then he invited us up to meet him individually. 00:37:27.340 --> 00:37:31.239 So we were as you might imagine, very excited 00:37:31.239 --> 00:37:33.280 about this possibility. It was the last day of 00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:35.820 our conference. So we all went over to the Vatican 00:37:35.820 --> 00:37:38.760 and we went into this beautiful room. It's a 00:37:38.760 --> 00:37:41.139 room where he frequently receives people, just 00:37:41.139 --> 00:37:46.199 monumental depictions of the life of Jesus and 00:37:46.199 --> 00:37:48.719 biblical scenes all over the walls and marble 00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:50.559 everywhere. And I was thinking to myself, like, 00:37:50.579 --> 00:37:52.639 wow, talk about the Catholic imagination at work. 00:37:52.739 --> 00:37:55.019 Like, I can only imagine what it's like to go 00:37:55.019 --> 00:37:58.059 to work every day at a place like this. Lucky 00:37:58.059 --> 00:38:01.480 Pug Francis. So we waited for him. He came in. 00:38:01.539 --> 00:38:03.840 He read the address to us, and the address was 00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:06.400 deeply moving. I don't think any of us realized 00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:09.659 how important literature and art has been to 00:38:09.659 --> 00:38:12.739 Francis all his life. He mentions the fact that 00:38:12.739 --> 00:38:15.420 he was a schoolteacher. He taught high school 00:38:15.420 --> 00:38:18.900 boys when he was in Argentina, and he thanks 00:38:18.900 --> 00:38:23.000 those kids in his address for giving him the 00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:26.119 reason and excuse, really, to read the great 00:38:26.119 --> 00:38:28.920 writers of the Western canon. read Dostoevsky, 00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:32.619 to read Dante, and to be able to explore the 00:38:32.619 --> 00:38:35.340 regions of his own heart and soul. And these 00:38:35.340 --> 00:38:37.559 writers still mean a great deal to him spiritually. 00:38:37.940 --> 00:38:40.739 So the address was pretty short. It's really 00:38:40.739 --> 00:38:43.480 only a few paragraphs, but it's basically a very 00:38:43.480 --> 00:38:46.639 pastoral letter in which he really encourages 00:38:46.639 --> 00:38:50.960 us and enjoins us as writers to follow our imaginations. 00:38:51.519 --> 00:38:54.000 And it's very Ignatian because, you know, St. 00:38:54.159 --> 00:38:56.920 Ignatius of Loyola, who is one of my favorite 00:38:56.920 --> 00:38:59.349 saints. because I've spent all of my adult life 00:38:59.349 --> 00:39:03.329 teaching in Jesuit universities, is a great proponent 00:39:03.329 --> 00:39:05.949 of the imagination. And so is Francis, of course, 00:39:06.010 --> 00:39:09.590 as a Jesuit. So it was just really encouraging 00:39:09.590 --> 00:39:12.110 and delightful. And the other thing about it 00:39:12.110 --> 00:39:16.610 is he was in a great mood. We had heard earlier 00:39:16.610 --> 00:39:18.889 the day before that he had gotten sick. He had 00:39:18.889 --> 00:39:21.190 some kind of cold. So he canceled all of his 00:39:21.190 --> 00:39:24.050 appointments and all of his audiences. And so 00:39:24.050 --> 00:39:26.449 we were thinking, oh, my gosh, you know, that's. 00:39:26.510 --> 00:39:28.610 We're not going to meet Francis. But he insisted 00:39:28.610 --> 00:39:31.849 on meeting us. And you could tell by the way 00:39:31.849 --> 00:39:33.690 he was conducting himself. This was different. 00:39:33.829 --> 00:39:35.710 You know, we were not heads of state. You know, 00:39:35.730 --> 00:39:39.710 we were not religious leaders. We were we were 00:39:39.710 --> 00:39:42.730 just writers. And I think he just delighted in 00:39:42.730 --> 00:39:45.409 meeting such ordinary people, but people who 00:39:45.409 --> 00:39:47.289 are doing something that he thought was very 00:39:47.289 --> 00:39:51.289 important. So, yeah, it was it was he was a bullion. 00:39:51.369 --> 00:39:53.630 We were a bullion. It was it was just really 00:39:53.630 --> 00:39:56.900 a wonderful experience meeting him. And we felt 00:39:56.900 --> 00:39:59.039 as though he had really opened the door of his, 00:39:59.099 --> 00:40:01.500 not only the doors of his palace to us, but the 00:40:01.500 --> 00:40:05.059 doors of his heart to us. And yeah, it's an unforgettable, 00:40:05.380 --> 00:40:08.349 unforgettable moment. And you were able to give 00:40:08.349 --> 00:40:11.050 him a couple of your poetry books, correct? Yes. 00:40:11.090 --> 00:40:14.250 And in fact, I hope I have a copy of one of them 00:40:14.250 --> 00:40:16.769 that I gave him. It's been a book. Oh, yes, I 00:40:16.769 --> 00:40:20.010 do. I chose two books to give to him. One was 00:40:20.010 --> 00:40:22.250 my most recent book called Holy Land, which I 00:40:22.250 --> 00:40:23.989 thought, this is right up the Pope's alley. He's 00:40:23.989 --> 00:40:26.130 going to love Holy Land. But the other one that 00:40:26.130 --> 00:40:28.309 I gave him is this one. It's called Saint Sinatra. 00:40:29.210 --> 00:40:31.610 That's awesome. And you can see in this book, 00:40:31.630 --> 00:40:35.489 the theme of this book is the blessedness and 00:40:35.489 --> 00:40:38.059 holiness of artists. because they give us beauty. 00:40:38.179 --> 00:40:40.619 And beauty is the instantiation of goodness in 00:40:40.619 --> 00:40:44.340 the world. And the test case is Sinatra, because 00:40:44.340 --> 00:40:46.340 if there's room for Sinatra in the communion 00:40:46.340 --> 00:40:48.199 of saints, there's room for all of us, right? 00:40:48.380 --> 00:40:53.599 So I have Frank's mugshot superimposed over Frangelico's 00:40:53.599 --> 00:40:57.079 procession of the saints. And as soon as Pope 00:40:57.079 --> 00:41:01.639 Francis looked at the cover, he laughed. And 00:41:01.639 --> 00:41:04.019 I knew he would because he has a great sense 00:41:04.019 --> 00:41:08.460 of humor. And so hopefully he read a poem or 00:41:08.460 --> 00:41:11.000 two. I don't know. I was hoping one of the poems 00:41:11.000 --> 00:41:13.159 would show up in one of his homilies, but that 00:41:13.159 --> 00:41:14.960 didn't happen, at least not to my knowledge. 00:41:15.099 --> 00:41:18.219 But he received our gifts very graciously. And 00:41:18.219 --> 00:41:22.380 yeah, so it was really a great day. Yeah, that's 00:41:22.380 --> 00:41:24.639 an amazing experience you were able to have. 00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:28.960 I went through and I read his address that you 00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:32.820 linked to in your America article. And oh, my 00:41:32.820 --> 00:41:34.840 gosh, there are just some really stunning quotes. 00:41:35.219 --> 00:41:37.579 And I wanted to get your reaction to one of them. 00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:40.199 And you include this in your article. Pope Francis 00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:45.099 said, this then is your task as poets, storytellers, 00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:49.039 filmmakers and artists to give life. flesh and 00:41:49.039 --> 00:41:52.099 verbal expression to all that humanity experiences, 00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:56.059 feels, dreams, and endures, thus creating harmony 00:41:56.059 --> 00:41:59.679 and beauty. This evangelical task also helps 00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:02.579 us come to a deeper understanding of God as the 00:42:02.579 --> 00:42:06.019 great poet of humanity. What does that quote 00:42:06.019 --> 00:42:08.559 mean to you? What did his address that he spoke 00:42:08.559 --> 00:42:10.679 directly to you all, what did that mean to you 00:42:10.679 --> 00:42:13.960 that day? Yes, that was one of the standout quotations. 00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:16.920 Pope Francis is very quotable, and there are 00:42:16.920 --> 00:42:18.500 a bunch in there that are great, but that's one 00:42:18.500 --> 00:42:22.039 of my favorites. What we all, I think, immediately 00:42:22.039 --> 00:42:24.619 recognize is Francis understands art, and he 00:42:24.619 --> 00:42:26.699 understands poetry, and he knows what poetry 00:42:26.699 --> 00:42:31.320 does. We don't talk about God or about Jesus 00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:34.679 or about the Holy Spirit. We instantiate the 00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:38.239 Holy Spirit and Jesus in the work that we do. 00:42:38.639 --> 00:42:41.639 This is not theology. It's not philosophy. It's 00:42:41.639 --> 00:42:45.900 not an ology at all. It is a made thing, an artifact, 00:42:46.260 --> 00:42:48.239 hopefully a beautiful artifact, whether it's 00:42:48.239 --> 00:42:51.559 a painting or a sculpture or a piece of music, 00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:56.820 a film or a poem, in which we see God when we 00:42:56.820 --> 00:42:59.340 experience the divine in the process of reading 00:42:59.340 --> 00:43:02.380 the poem or looking at the statue or watching 00:43:02.380 --> 00:43:05.139 the film. And Francis gets that, this idea of 00:43:05.139 --> 00:43:08.079 enfleshment, this idea of making palpable for 00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:11.480 people to feel and touch and taste and smell 00:43:11.480 --> 00:43:15.760 God. Francis, of course, is famous for his wonderful 00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:18.559 expressions that talk about enfleshment. Remember, 00:43:18.679 --> 00:43:22.039 one of his directives to priests and pastors 00:43:22.039 --> 00:43:24.380 when he first became pope was like, go out among 00:43:24.380 --> 00:43:26.320 the people so you get the smell of the sheep 00:43:26.320 --> 00:43:29.260 on you, which is just such a lovely expression 00:43:29.260 --> 00:43:33.460 because the fact is, you know, a shepherd, the 00:43:33.460 --> 00:43:36.420 sheep know his smell and he knows their smell. 00:43:36.519 --> 00:43:39.219 And that sort of elemental connection to the 00:43:39.219 --> 00:43:42.199 real, the Catholic writer Flannery O 'Connor 00:43:42.199 --> 00:43:44.420 talks about. about the artist lives his or her 00:43:44.420 --> 00:43:48.760 life in hotly in pursuit of the real. And Francis 00:43:48.760 --> 00:43:50.960 always struck me as somebody whose feet were 00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:53.579 firmly on the ground. He was very much in pursuit 00:43:53.579 --> 00:43:56.719 of the real. We've had other marvelous popes 00:43:56.719 --> 00:44:00.960 who were scholars and sort of lived a very heady 00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:03.519 kind of intellectual life. That was not Francis. 00:44:03.900 --> 00:44:06.239 He was somebody who lived, you know, was much 00:44:06.239 --> 00:44:10.179 more earthbound like us writers because we're 00:44:10.179 --> 00:44:12.389 pretty earthbound in many ways. even though poets 00:44:12.389 --> 00:44:14.769 have this reputation for being, like, you know, 00:44:14.769 --> 00:44:18.449 prophetic and sort of otherworldly, really, we're 00:44:18.449 --> 00:44:22.949 pretty earthy people. Yeah, yeah, the famous 00:44:22.949 --> 00:44:27.989 quote about, you know, the scent, the smell of 00:44:27.989 --> 00:44:30.650 the shepherd and the sheep, I mean, it's so visceral, 00:44:30.789 --> 00:44:34.090 you know, as in the Franciscan world, you know, 00:44:34.110 --> 00:44:37.030 we really connect that to St. Francis of Assisi 00:44:37.030 --> 00:44:40.289 and this incarnational spirituality, but it's 00:44:40.289 --> 00:44:43.989 really, Like you said, it's a really beautiful 00:44:43.989 --> 00:44:48.469 thing to have a pope who is so down to earth 00:44:48.469 --> 00:44:51.150 and earthy, like you said. It's a great word. 00:44:51.250 --> 00:44:54.929 I mean, someone who's about experience. And yeah, 00:44:55.070 --> 00:44:58.900 yeah. I cannot believe that you were able to 00:44:58.900 --> 00:45:00.920 have that experience there with a bunch of other 00:45:00.920 --> 00:45:04.639 artists with him. It's incredible. It really 00:45:04.639 --> 00:45:07.099 was incredible. And I will mention, just to drop 00:45:07.099 --> 00:45:10.820 a name, besides Pope Francis's name, one of the 00:45:10.820 --> 00:45:13.219 people who was with us was Martin Scorsese. And 00:45:13.219 --> 00:45:16.300 it was so charming to watch the two of those, 00:45:16.360 --> 00:45:18.519 because here they are, both men in their 80s, 00:45:18.519 --> 00:45:22.360 right? still at the height of their powers. And 00:45:22.360 --> 00:45:25.500 they were like schoolboys. Scorsese was obviously 00:45:25.500 --> 00:45:28.380 so delighted to meet Pope Francis, and Pope Francis 00:45:28.380 --> 00:45:31.739 was so delighted to meet him. And so there was 00:45:31.739 --> 00:45:34.199 just something about the, you know, and Scorsese, 00:45:34.199 --> 00:45:36.719 of course, is a very... very famous Catholic 00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:39.679 artist, you know, and somebody whose work is 00:45:39.679 --> 00:45:42.340 very, it's very contemporary, and it also is 00:45:42.340 --> 00:45:45.420 very controversial. And here's Francis. Francis 00:45:45.420 --> 00:45:47.480 embraces everybody. Here's Francis embracing 00:45:47.480 --> 00:45:50.860 him. Everybody brought the Pope a gift, but the 00:45:50.860 --> 00:45:53.239 gift that Scorsese brought was, this was just 00:45:53.239 --> 00:45:55.780 before his film, The Killers of the Flower Moon 00:45:55.780 --> 00:45:58.280 came out, which is about the Osage people. So 00:45:58.280 --> 00:46:00.760 his gift to Pope Francis was a calligraphied 00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:04.400 copy of the Our Father written in the Osage language. 00:46:05.320 --> 00:46:09.239 Oh, wow. So it's just like, just so perfect, 00:46:09.340 --> 00:46:13.079 such a beautiful, you know, irreplaceable gift. 00:46:13.179 --> 00:46:17.159 Who else would do that and why? So that was also 00:46:17.159 --> 00:46:20.440 very touching to witness that coming together 00:46:20.440 --> 00:46:24.000 of, you know, these two. In fact, those of us 00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:26.980 who, you know, we're not famous people often 00:46:26.980 --> 00:46:29.340 refer to that day that we met Francis as the 00:46:29.340 --> 00:46:34.460 day we met the two popes. That's great. Yeah. 00:46:34.760 --> 00:46:38.340 So it was, it was really a lovely day, not just 00:46:38.340 --> 00:46:40.739 for, you know, those of us who are less well 00:46:40.739 --> 00:46:42.820 -known writers, but even for people who are very 00:46:42.820 --> 00:46:45.880 well -known, like they knew, Scorsese knew, I'm 00:46:45.880 --> 00:46:49.400 in the presence of greatness and I'm very humbled 00:46:49.400 --> 00:46:57.900 by it. Yeah. That concludes our special episode 00:46:57.900 --> 00:47:01.760 on the life, legacy, and papacy of Pope Francis. 00:47:02.619 --> 00:47:04.559 To learn more, I encourage you to visit the show 00:47:04.559 --> 00:47:07.360 notes in the description of this episode on whichever 00:47:07.360 --> 00:47:10.840 platform that you listen to this podcast. So, 00:47:10.860 --> 00:47:14.920 rest in peace, Pope Francis, and please, as Father 00:47:14.920 --> 00:47:18.900 Murray said, pray for us. After the music, you'll 00:47:18.900 --> 00:47:21.679 hear Pope Francis' own quotations about God's 00:47:21.679 --> 00:47:25.239 mercy, an undeniable cornerstone of his papacy. 00:47:25.639 --> 00:47:27.940 One of these quotes, as you'll hear, was recorded 00:47:27.940 --> 00:47:30.519 after Easter several years ago, which I found 00:47:30.519 --> 00:47:33.289 fitting. Thanks for listening to Off the Page. 00:47:33.690 --> 00:47:39.630 Peace and all good. I will lead you into the 00:47:39.630 --> 00:47:44.030 desert with me And tenderly speak to your heart 00:47:44.030 --> 00:47:54.289 Be an architect of mercy. Whoever experiences 00:47:54.289 --> 00:47:57.250 divine mercy is impelled to be an architect of 00:47:57.250 --> 00:48:00.329 mercy among the least and the poor. In these 00:48:00.329 --> 00:48:04.429 littlest brothers, Jesus awaits us. See Matthew 00:48:04.429 --> 00:48:09.050 25, verse 40. Let us receive mercy and let us 00:48:09.050 --> 00:48:12.030 give mercy. Let us go to the encounter and let 00:48:12.030 --> 00:48:16.050 us celebrate Easter in the joy of God. Homily, 00:48:16.170 --> 00:48:19.730 St. Peter's Basilica, Friday, March 28, 2014. 00:48:21.829 --> 00:48:28.250 Pope Francis at Pontifex, October 7, 2013. Mercy 00:48:28.250 --> 00:48:31.289 is the true power that can save humanity and 00:48:31.289 --> 00:48:36.469 the world from sin and evil. Mercy has triumphed. 00:48:37.170 --> 00:48:40.809 The church throughout the world echoes the angel's 00:48:40.809 --> 00:48:45.309 message to the women. Do not be afraid. I know 00:48:45.309 --> 00:48:47.710 that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 00:48:48.230 --> 00:48:52.110 He is not here, for he has been raised. Come, 00:48:52.329 --> 00:48:56.050 see the place where he lay. Matthew chapter 28. 00:48:56.570 --> 00:49:02.050 This is the culmination of the Gospel. It is 00:49:02.050 --> 00:49:05.630 the good news par excellence. Jesus, who was 00:49:05.630 --> 00:49:09.170 crucified, is risen. This event is the basis 00:49:09.170 --> 00:49:12.389 of our faith and our hope. If Christ were not 00:49:12.389 --> 00:49:15.289 raised, Christianity would lose its very meaning. 00:49:15.650 --> 00:49:18.530 The whole mission of the Church would lose its 00:49:18.530 --> 00:49:21.130 impulse. For this is the point from which it 00:49:21.130 --> 00:49:24.329 first set out and continues to set out ever anew. 00:49:24.940 --> 00:49:27.440 The message which Christians bring to the world 00:49:27.440 --> 00:49:32.320 is this. Jesus, love incarnate, died on the cross 00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:36.760 for our sins. But God the Father raised him and 00:49:36.760 --> 00:49:40.599 made him the Lord of life and death. In Jesus, 00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:44.340 love has triumphed over hatred, mercy over sinfulness, 00:49:44.639 --> 00:49:48.900 goodness over evil, truth over falsehood, life 00:49:48.900 --> 00:49:53.679 over death. Urbi et Orbi. Loggia of St. Peter's 00:49:53.679 --> 00:49:56.360 Basilica, Sunday, April 20, 2014.