Welcome to the Off the Page podcast. I'm Stephen
Copeland. For listeners of Off the Page, it will
be no surprise that a pope who took the name
Francis would come up often in the Franciscan
conversations that are featured on this podcast.
This episode is a compilation of both published
and unpublished interviews where guests talk
about the life, legacy, and papacy of Pope Francis.
Included here is Father Murray Bodo, talking
about Pope Francis' heart for the poor. Dr. Daniel
P. Horan, talking about God's love and mercy
being a cornerstone to Pope Francis' papacy.
Sister Margaret Carney, talking about the Pope's
unique ability to, much like St. Francis of Assisi,
speak the language of the people and make the
Catholic faith accessible. Also included is Brother
Keith Warner. talking about the Franciscan undertones
and the Pope's encyclicals, particularly Laudato
Si, and this encyclical's lasting call to environmental
conversion and what the Pope calls integral ecology.
And lastly, the poet Dr. Angela Alimo O'Donnell
discussing the Pope's love for art and literature.
I have also included two other clips in this
episode that are not from off -the -page interviews.
This episode begins with a recording from 2021
with Sister Margaret Carney again, where she
frames Pope Francis' papacy as one that is uniquely
Franciscan. And then this episode concludes with
some of Pope Francis' own words about divine
mercy, translated and recorded on audiobook in
the Franciscan media title, Believe in Love.
This episode admittedly only scratches the surface
of Pope Francis's life, papacy, and legacy, but
in editing this episode, I thought it was really
neat to see how naturally the Pope's impact came
up in these conversations. Off the page has only
been It's only existed for a year, and yet the
Pope's impact was coming up in almost every other
episode. So I do encourage you to visit the show
notes for this episode, as I hope the clips compiled
here may be on ramps to a deeper dive into Pope
Francis's impact on the church and the world.
So what does Pope Francis's life and legacy mean
to me? Honestly, I feel a little out of my depth
to talk about that. I don't think I'll be able
to fully grasp, probably until years down the
road, just how unique it was for me to be spiraling
into the Christian mystics and the Franciscan
tradition the last decade here at the same time
that Pope Francis was leading the church. When
he was elected by the College of Cardinals in
2013, I was still pretty deep in the evangelical
Christian world. However, I was beginning to
engage my doubts about faith and deconstruct
my theology, as they say. And I remember his
famous, who am I to judge line, as if it were
yesterday. Here was someone I saw who was putting
love and mercy and acceptance at the forefront
of the conversation rather than doctrine, dogma,
and the kind of religious dualism I had grown
incredibly bored and frustrated with in conservative
evangelicalism. So did Pope Francis lead me to
return to my Catholic roots? I don't know. Thomas
Merton, Henry Nowen, St. Teresa of Avila, St.
Francis of Assisi, St. Clair of Assisi. They
certainly did. But, you know, working with my
late mentor, Father Dan Riley, on his book, Franciscan
Lectio, that certainly did. And Pope Francis
is quoted thoroughly throughout that book. But
one thing is sure, I mean, attending the Franciscan
School of Theology and studying the Pope's encyclicals,
like Fratelli Tutti and Laudato Si, that was
an incredible gift that I do not believe I fully
grasp. So, you know, like most, I have my own
qualms with the Catholic Church. things certain.
I mean, returning to my Catholic roots and discovering
the expansiveness of Franciscan theology was
certainly made easier for me when the person
at the head of the church was leading in such
a loving, compassionate, and non -dualistic way.
And for that, I am incredibly grateful. So rest
in peace, Pope Francis, and I pray that we can
take this Pope's wisdom and more than anything,
like St. Francis of Assisi, his heart. into our
lives and walks of faith. So kicking off this
special episode is a 2021 recording featuring
Sister Margaret Carney, talking about the Franciscan
undertones of Pope Francis's papacy. I hope that
Pope Francis impacts every Franciscan living
on the planet right now, from the tips of our
toes to the crown of our heads. I honestly believe
that God has placed him with the grace of this
office in the world at this time to summon us
to the deepest possible understanding and willingness
to be banner bearers of the full mission of Francis
for living the gospel and healing the planet
and healing humanity. These are the messages,
the joy of the gospel, laudato si, fratelli tutti,
everything that Pope Francis has committed to
as his principal messages to the world are a
reflection of the teaching of Francis of Assisi.
And I believe that as Franciscans, we should
waste not a moment of our time not becoming thoroughly
imbued with those teachings, understanding them,
analyzing them, reflecting, making applications
to our own culture and society, understanding
what will be offensive to our culture and society
and how do we reconcile some of that tension.
But I really believe that Pope Francis is, in
a sense, handing us a charter. for what Brian
McLaren calls a Franciscan Renaissance. And so
in addition to these great medieval texts and
the inspirations of ever so many writings about
and by early Franciscan saints, we have a pope
who stands up every day and calls the world to
honor the message of Francis. And when you look
at the photograph, of Pope Francis signing this
latest encyclical literally beneath the tomb
of St. Francis. How can we mistake the symbolism?
He could have signed it in his office in Rome.
He is trying to tell us the voice of your father
Francis of Assisi is the voice your brother Francis
of Rome is trying to make alive again. I think
it is so exciting. It is such a blessing for
us. With all the stresses and pain we might have,
whether tensions within the church, tensions
within the politics of our society, he is one
brilliantly shining ray of hope for all of us.
Next is Father Murray Bodo, reflecting on when
Jorge Mario Bergoglio took the name Francis when
he was elected Bishop of Rome. I'm so happy and
proud to be recording this podcast. Two days
after Pope Francis has passed into heaven, he
was such an icon and a major figure in my life
as a Franciscan and just as an ordinary human
being. He was so great. And I was in Assisi when
he made his first visit to Assisi. And it was
such a thrill to me. They had... great big screens
all over the city and i was sitting in front
of one of the the screens in the evening and
there was a interview with him and he was talking
about how we got the name francis and he said
that one of the bishops came up and whispered
in his ear when they came up to greet him don't
forget the poor and uh Pope Francis said, boom,
just like that. He said, boom, Francis of Assisi.
I knew my name. He hadn't planned on that name
before. And, of course, hearing that, in Assisi,
and he just was such a Franciscan at heart. In
fact, the Romans that I talked to earlier, the
Roman people, they said he has a jesuit mind
and a franciscan heart and that's a good combination
and he never called himself pope it was always
the bishop of rome and he was totally devoted
to the people shortly after he had been in office
i think it was a month i was in rome and i was
in a taxi And I was rushing to get to a meeting
of our pilgrimage programs. And I said to the
cab driver, how do you like your new pope? Silence.
I thought, oh boy, I'm in some political difficulty
here or something. And then after about three
minutes, he said, no, we don't have a pope. we
have a pastor and that touched me so deeply because
they looked upon him as their pastor and he embraced
that that is how he envisioned himself but he
was so franciscan even his book laudato si that's
taken from the canticle of the creatures the
first words of francis praised be you my lord
laudato si mi signore it's just so it was so
wonderful and what he has done to keep the poor
at the foreground of the church is just the dream
of every Franciscan heart. And of course, I had
all kinds of reasons to love him. He was a northern
Italian immigrant to Argentina. My parents were
northern Italian immigrants. to america and the
things he talked about the italian things his
his his sense of joy i loved that he had a sense
of humor he didn't take himself too seriously
so it's it's a great loss because uh he had he
was he was a force to be reckoned with in fact
they made four or five movies maybe more i heard
six that could be on his life and of course the
two popes which is a fiction but a fiction with
a lot a lot of truth in it and uh so we're going
to miss him i'm going to miss him but uh he left
a legacy for us not to forget the poor. He just,
to the end, I think he held on. He was so sick,
I thought he was going to die earlier, but I
knew he's going to hold on until after Easter,
and he's going to make an appearance no matter
what it takes, and he did. I would love to be
in Rome for the funeral. But I have no doubt,
like so many people who are listening to me now,
don't worry about that. He'll come and visit
you if you want him to. He'll be there for us,
and he'll be a great intercessory prayer and
person in our lives. That clip is from a soon
to be published episode of Off the Page where
I interviewed Father Murray about his new poetry
book, Brother Wind and Air. I love that story
that Father Murray shared about the cab driver,
the quote, we don't have a pope, we have a pastor.
I found that really powerful. So I invite you
to take some time with that quote and maybe not
only the quote itself, but also the silence from
which this quote flowed from. I think that story
speaks wonders about Pope Francis's non -hierarchical
approach to leadership. even in an institution
as hierarchical as the Catholic Church, as well
as his down -to -earth mode of being and ministry.
So, next up is a clip from our interview with
Dr. Daniel P. Horan, which was published at the
beginning of 2025. In this clip, you'll hear
Dan and I talk about the difficulty of accepting
God's love for us, which led him to reflect on
what has been called Pope Francis' mission statement
when he was elected Bishop of Rome. Why is it
so difficult to accept God's love in your opinion?
Man, I... You have like an hour left, right?
I know, right? How many hours do we have? Yeah,
well, you know, I often go back to something
Pope Francis said in April of 2013. This was
when he, you know, he was newly elected Bishop
of Rome, and the actual kind of cathedral of
the Diocese of Rome is the Lateran Basilica.
And so every new pope, you know, they become
Pope the Knight of the Conclave and all this.
But then there's a formal kind of... installation
as the Bishop of Rome, as the Pope, right? And
that takes place at the Lateran Basilica, and
there is the cathedra, the chair of the bishop
there. And so him celebrating mass there, sitting
in that chair, this was all part of it. And Pope
Francis, in that particular liturgy, gave a homily
where I and others, I'm not original in thinking
this way, have talked about this as kind of Pope
Francis announcing his mission statement. And
here we can, you know, more than a decade now,
look back and see that this is kind of... par
for the course, which is all about mercy. And
I think, you know, to your point, why is it so
hard to accept God's love? I think it's because
fundamentally we don't believe that we're worthy
of it, that we need to do something. And part
of that, if not most of that, I think is conditioned
by our experience of such qualified love in our
human relationships, even those in our families
where there might be the closest thing in healthy
family relationships to an unconditional love.
If we're honest, even that becomes conditioned.
We're never 100 % sure that something in our
life or a fight that breaks out, a disagreement,
a disagreement about perspective or politics
or you name it, wouldn't be the thing, that straw
that breaks the camel's back of that relationship.
There's always just that edge of the precipice.
And so if we take that experience of conditioned
love, of qualified love in this life, All we
have to talk about God and understand God is
our human experiences and language. We know that
God is incomprehensible, but yet God is knowable.
We can talk about God, but we do so analogously.
We do so somewhat removed. And so I think when
we're thinking this way, we have no choice, no
recourse, but to draw from our experience of
human love. I think it's harder for people who
have felt an absence of that close to unconditional
love. It doesn't mean that even those who have
can accept God's love completely. And what Pope
Francis says in that homily has always stayed
with me. I'm going to paraphrase it here is that
he says, God doesn't actually want anything from
you. God is already there. All God wants you
to do is turn to God. I've always visualized
this as like you're facing one direction and
God is like literally standing behind you. You
don't have to pay anything. You don't have to
do anything, but turn toward God. Just turn around
in the fear. that we're going to be rejected
or overlooked or minimized or what have you that
we carry with us from our earthly relationships,
I think inhibits too many people from just turning.
That's all. Francis says, don't, literally, that's
it. God will take care of the rest. And how few
of us are able to turn around. I know I struggle
with that, right? It goes back to the true self.
It goes back to Francis of Assisi's notion of
who we are before God. And so we're always in
a process of becoming, you know, becoming more
who we are, or maybe to borrow that. Mertonian
language, maybe becoming less of who we are in
that spirit of the false self. But I do believe
that God, I trust what Pope Francis says, God's
mercy is there. It's just a matter of us turning
to God. It's just a matter of us accepting that
love, which to some people sounds, you know,
probably like, you know, too theoretical or abstract
or too, you know, touchy -feely or what have
you. But I think is that not what Jesus's message
was all about? It was made concrete and present
by his outreach and his inclusion, his invitation.
What does that say to us about how we move through
the world? What does it say to us about how we
understand ourselves? And I think that combination
of Rahner and Merton and Francis and Jesus' own
message in the Gospels has invited me to continue
to recognize that it's not a one and done, that
we're always in a process of becoming. So maybe
that's probably a good place to end, you know,
because we're continuing to journey forward.
This reflection from Dan Horan about Pope Francis'
mission statement leads me to contemplate my
own mission statement in life, in leadership,
in the day -to -day. Is God's love and mercy
at the foundation of my own mission? And how
can the way Pope Francis lived this out inspire
and challenge me and us today? This next clip
is a brief one from Sister Margaret Carney. This
episode was published in February 2025, and the
episode really honed in on St. Clair of Assisi's
approach to leadership. This led to a really
wonderful comment from Sister Margaret about
Pope Francis's great skill as a communicator,
which is important for any kind of leader. Enjoy.
I heard a wonderful statement yesterday by Gerard
O 'Connell, a Vatican journalist, who said, Pope
Francis is not saying anything different in principle
about the economy, the greed of the ultra -rich,
the danger to the environment. He said Benedict
said it. John Paul II said it. But Francis uses
language ordinary people relate to. And now people
are like, did you hear what the Pope said? Well,
guess what? It's been said for 25 years. But
that's how he disrupts things, because he will
use a turn of phrase that you're like, Pope Francis
said that, you know? He doesn't speak Vaticanese.
He speaks the language of people. And so I think
he's a good example in our time of someone with
his vast Jesuit education. who can relate to
the highest levels of authority but sit with
a farmer or a sick child or a struggling parent
and get right in there with them This next clip
is a lengthier one from Brother Keith Warner,
Franciscan friar, scholar, professor, and author
of the award -winning book, Care for Creation.
In this clip, Brother Keith talks about his own
mission in ministry, which was confirmed seven
years ago in a pilgrimage to Greccio, Italy.
And in this, he unpacks the depth and principles
of Pope Francis' encyclical, Laudato Si', and
what Brother Keith calls the, quote, most Franciscan
encyclical. Encyclical Ever. This episode was
published in December 2024, and it's a wonderful
exchange about the lasting call and challenge
of Pope Francis' encyclicals like Laudato Si.
Enjoy. You wrote in the preface about how you
spent a lot of time contemplating Laudato Si
in 2017 while in Greccio. What impact did that
encyclical have on your life and your work and
what opened up for you during that time in Greccio?
Well, so there had been rumors about Laudato
Si as an environmental encyclical when it first,
from the beginning of Pope Francis' pontificate.
And so at one point I got a Skype call, yes,
back when we used to use Skype, from a Franciscan.
friend of mine who was in rome and he had heard
a story of there being a general audience between
the leadership of the franciscan order with the
pope and presumably cardinal turkson and those
who were involved in writing laudato si and the
pope asked if there were any franciscans who
had written about this and our minister general
said oh yes keith warner you should get some
of his things so so i'd heard he told me this
friend of mine told me that this had happened
in a papal audience like really that sounds like
no big deal i'm like i read it from cover to
cover right there it's like oh i didn't make
the footnotes now in reality you know uh this
the this book here is quoted. This is a book
about Francis of Assisi early documents, so this
book is quoted properly, and clearly the people
who wrote the encyclical knew, or I'm sure drafted
it before Pope Francis wrote it. They knew this
well. Fun fact, Peter Cardinal Turkson, who was
the head of the Dicastery for Integral Human
Development, did an extra... theology graduate
degree at a conventional seminary in upstate
New York. So he got exposed to the Franciscan
tradition, even though he was a diocesan priest
originally from Ghana. So, yeah, sure, I was
on my 25th anniversary in Greccio in Franciscan
Italy in 2017. But perhaps more importantly,
I read Laudato Si. I mean, I just carried it
in my pack everywhere I went, and I read it dozens
of times. And so I would teach from it in every
class. But, you know, so I was there on kind
of on the side of the cliff looking out over
the Rieti Valley. And I would say that it's a
beautiful location. This is, of course, where
Francis had his experiences. praying the creche
and kind of really founding the process of Franciscan
devotion to the nativity. That's where the record
shows that this took place. But there's this
little catwalk that wrapped around the back of
the friary that you could only get to through
the cloister. And so I was walking back there
and reading passages from Laudato Si. praying
and looking at the valley of considerable beauty.
And I thought, and it came to me like the balance
of my religious life is to translate Laudato
Si from text into life. And so that's what I
do. That is kind of like a call within a call
or a clarification. That was seven years ago.
But I would just say more recently, it's like,
well, Pope Francis is coming up with so many
different ideas now. It's sort of like synodality,
Fratelli Tutti. I mean, A lot of, most Franciscan
friars are really all in on the agenda of Pope
Francis and his efforts at renewal and really
bringing, fostering conversion in the world.
And I'm also just conscious of last year, Pope
Francis wrote Laudate Deum, which was, really
didn't add too much to the teachings of Laudate
Si, but again, read the footnotes. Here's the
scholar in me, like he cited the U .S. bishops
very early on, saying what was called for. And
then at the end, he said, you know, we can do
this as long as we repent from like U .S. style
lifestyles and degrees of consumption. Those
were like, you know, footnotes are political.
And so those those were messages that were not
like direct. But if you if you want to get if
you want to understand what the pope is thinking
about, he's like saying the America you need
to lead here. And so right now it seems like
we're gearing up to lead in reverse. So this
is like we are headed on the wrong path in this
country, according to the moral teachings of
Pope Francis. And what's called for is repentance
and conversion. And I happily and joyfully join
with any... one in the church who recognizes
the need for that conversion. But this is not
a concern of many people in America. And so this
is where this message of conversion is really
so important. And it's really like, we have to
take it seriously. We have to act on it. And
that's what's called for. And that's called for
by Pope Francis, by Laudato Si. by Franciscans
around the world, you know, clear on this, but
it's not a message that people want to hear or
act on. Yeah. Why is that, do you think? Well,
greed, selfishness, individualism, these blind
us to others. And that's, you know, Pope Francis
introduced this concept of integral ecology,
which is like this holistic understanding of
human beings. in relationship to God, each other,
and creation, and kind of growing in our awareness,
our spiritual awareness of the need for balanced
and healthy give -and -take relationships. It
doesn't mean we can't cut down a tree, but we
shouldn't remove entire forests. It doesn't mean
that we have to go back to living in caves, but
if we adopted a lifestyle that was moderate,
sober, as Pope Francis said, simple and sober,
we would work our way out of this mess. But we're
too addicted to our stuff, to our power, to our
ability to decide for ourselves, and we're too
indifferent to the suffering that this causes.
One of my favorite quotes from Thomas Merton,
he's writing, he says something along the lines
of, for many, and he's talking about Americans,
and he says something along the lines of, for
many, a tree has no reality until they cut it
down. It's something along those – and I think
he's getting at this need in the American mindset,
at least the way I interpret it, this need in
the American mindset to commodify things, to
– and he plays a lot with this. Like, hey, we'll
plant a tree in the city, but we have to dedicate
it to the mayor. There always has to be some
kind of meaning attached. But in Franciscan spirituality
and in contemplative spirituality – A lot of
it comes down to relationality. You know, like
this tree isn't something for me to commodify,
something for me to give it meaning because I've
cut it down now. This tree speaks to me. It speaks
truth to me about who God is and how we are to
renew the earth and be converted in the process.
What are your thoughts on that? 2025 is both
the 10th anniversary of Laudato Si. But it's
also the 800th anniversary of the Canticle of
the Creatures. And so, of course, many of the
listeners to this podcast would be familiar with
the canticle and probably singing it in church
and familiar with many of its lines. And certainly
it is a beautiful and inspirational song. It
gives voice to a Franciscan care for creation
in a most beautiful way. But this is another
text that's really worth kind of studying. and
reflecting upon. I believe it's Ilya, but I'm
not sure. To be honest, I don't remember the
source, but I think Ilya refers to it as a Christic
hymn, meaning a hymn that references Christ,
and then she explains it. I'm not sure it's in
this book, but I'm pretty sure she's talked about
it in this way. So I think that is really like,
other people say that it is It is a metaphysical
statement. Okay, there's a $20 word. So it's
sort of like describing reality that Francis
perceived, not using advanced philosophical technical
language, but as a song from the heart emerging
from his contemplative love of creation and his
experience of God in creation. It's also, for
example, the first... song in modern Italian.
So it's not exactly that. I mean, it's unusual
as reverting to the encyclical. The encyclical
is from this kind of middle -aged medieval Umbrian.
It's not from Latin. Almost every other encyclical
I know has the first words are from the Latin.
And this one is from medieval Umbrian. So that's
so interesting that the Pope decided to kind
of deviate, as it were, from tradition in order
to embrace this and embrace it as a wisdom text.
So there, you know, again, I'm thinking about
this relationality that's in the canticle. It's
really, I think, helpful for understanding Francis,
who used the term brother hundreds of times.
And then that sort of gives me the perspective,
and I hope you and your listeners as well, it's
all about family. And family is the root metaphor
here for understanding Francis' relationship
to other people and to Earth and to creation
and to God. So it's all about always being in
relationship and thinking about others, not in
this sort of like kind of... doormat, milk toast,
I don't belong here, not in that kind of sense,
but as a part of the family around the celebratory
table or on the outing together or, you know,
holding hands. Those are the kind of images that
I think are suggested by this, both emerging
from Francis's own insight, but also from it
speaks to us today and it's available to us today
if we choose. to lean into this way of living,
this way of seeing, contemplative as an open
-eyed prayer, this ability to lean into this
as we gaze upon this kind of great tragedy of
our indifference to creation, our selfishness
and consumerism at the expense of it, our hard
-heartedness towards the very clear suffering
of creatures that are being pushed to irreversible
extinction and the suffering of the poor. This
is the conversion that Loud Out to Sea calls
us to. I know that clip may have felt straightforward
or maybe even harsh, you know, as Brother Keith
calls listeners into environmental conversion.
But I really thought it was important to include
here because Not only is Laudato Si' loaded with
Franciscan wisdom, as is Fratelli Tutti, but
Pope Francis himself was also unashamed to be
bold and really call a spade a spade. This kind
of clear and sometimes provocative communication,
I think, was so important to Pope Francis as
he helped move the global church toward progress
and as he challenged Catholics to adopt an ecological
consciousness and care for the earth. our common
home. I cannot recommend enough the book Care
for Creation, written by Brother Keith, Sister
Elia Delio, and Pamela Wood. The expanded edition
of this book was just released and is woven with
insights and wisdom from Laudato Si' if you'd
like to learn more about this encyclical. So
lastly, this final clip includes an exchange
with the poet Dr. Angela Alimo O'Donnell about
Pope Francis's deep appreciation for art and
literature and the opportunity she had a couple
years ago to meet Pope Francis and share her
work with him. She has a wonderful article that
just came out in America that I highly recommend.
I'll link to that in the show notes. And this
is also from an episode that will be published
later this year. So without further ado, here
is Dr. Angela Alimo O'Donnell. So we're recording
this on April 25th. So this is four days after
Pope Francis passed away. And you have an article
coming out any minute you mentioned before we
hit record in America, where you write about
your love for Pope Francis and the time you were
graced to meet him. So there's a really... wonderful
story behind that I'd love for you to get into.
Can you tell us that story about meeting him
and then also about what stood out to you about
his own love and appreciation for art? Yeah,
absolutely. This is a memory that goes back to
almost two years, to May of 2023. My center was
sponsoring a conference in Rome for writers,
Catholic writers from around the world, along
with Georgetown University, Città Cattolica,
the great Italian Jesuit journal, and also the
Hanks Center at Loyola. Chicago. So we invited
40, there were between 40 and 60 writers who
came to Rome and spent several days reading to
each other. And we're very happy to find out
that Pope Francis heard about our conference
from one of our sponsors, Antonio Spadaro, who
is a fellow Jesuit, and Pope Francis wanted to
address us. So he wrote an address just for us.
And then he invited us to the Vatican to hear
the address as part of a... delegation, an audience,
but then he invited us up to meet him individually.
So we were as you might imagine, very excited
about this possibility. It was the last day of
our conference. So we all went over to the Vatican
and we went into this beautiful room. It's a
room where he frequently receives people, just
monumental depictions of the life of Jesus and
biblical scenes all over the walls and marble
everywhere. And I was thinking to myself, like,
wow, talk about the Catholic imagination at work.
Like, I can only imagine what it's like to go
to work every day at a place like this. Lucky
Pug Francis. So we waited for him. He came in.
He read the address to us, and the address was
deeply moving. I don't think any of us realized
how important literature and art has been to
Francis all his life. He mentions the fact that
he was a schoolteacher. He taught high school
boys when he was in Argentina, and he thanks
those kids in his address for giving him the
reason and excuse, really, to read the great
writers of the Western canon. read Dostoevsky,
to read Dante, and to be able to explore the
regions of his own heart and soul. And these
writers still mean a great deal to him spiritually.
So the address was pretty short. It's really
only a few paragraphs, but it's basically a very
pastoral letter in which he really encourages
us and enjoins us as writers to follow our imaginations.
And it's very Ignatian because, you know, St.
Ignatius of Loyola, who is one of my favorite
saints. because I've spent all of my adult life
teaching in Jesuit universities, is a great proponent
of the imagination. And so is Francis, of course,
as a Jesuit. So it was just really encouraging
and delightful. And the other thing about it
is he was in a great mood. We had heard earlier
the day before that he had gotten sick. He had
some kind of cold. So he canceled all of his
appointments and all of his audiences. And so
we were thinking, oh, my gosh, you know, that's.
We're not going to meet Francis. But he insisted
on meeting us. And you could tell by the way
he was conducting himself. This was different.
You know, we were not heads of state. You know,
we were not religious leaders. We were we were
just writers. And I think he just delighted in
meeting such ordinary people, but people who
are doing something that he thought was very
important. So, yeah, it was it was he was a bullion.
We were a bullion. It was it was just really
a wonderful experience meeting him. And we felt
as though he had really opened the door of his,
not only the doors of his palace to us, but the
doors of his heart to us. And yeah, it's an unforgettable,
unforgettable moment. And you were able to give
him a couple of your poetry books, correct? Yes.
And in fact, I hope I have a copy of one of them
that I gave him. It's been a book. Oh, yes, I
do. I chose two books to give to him. One was
my most recent book called Holy Land, which I
thought, this is right up the Pope's alley. He's
going to love Holy Land. But the other one that
I gave him is this one. It's called Saint Sinatra.
That's awesome. And you can see in this book,
the theme of this book is the blessedness and
holiness of artists. because they give us beauty.
And beauty is the instantiation of goodness in
the world. And the test case is Sinatra, because
if there's room for Sinatra in the communion
of saints, there's room for all of us, right?
So I have Frank's mugshot superimposed over Frangelico's
procession of the saints. And as soon as Pope
Francis looked at the cover, he laughed. And
I knew he would because he has a great sense
of humor. And so hopefully he read a poem or
two. I don't know. I was hoping one of the poems
would show up in one of his homilies, but that
didn't happen, at least not to my knowledge.
But he received our gifts very graciously. And
yeah, so it was really a great day. Yeah, that's
an amazing experience you were able to have.
I went through and I read his address that you
linked to in your America article. And oh, my
gosh, there are just some really stunning quotes.
And I wanted to get your reaction to one of them.
And you include this in your article. Pope Francis
said, this then is your task as poets, storytellers,
filmmakers and artists to give life. flesh and
verbal expression to all that humanity experiences,
feels, dreams, and endures, thus creating harmony
and beauty. This evangelical task also helps
us come to a deeper understanding of God as the
great poet of humanity. What does that quote
mean to you? What did his address that he spoke
directly to you all, what did that mean to you
that day? Yes, that was one of the standout quotations.
Pope Francis is very quotable, and there are
a bunch in there that are great, but that's one
of my favorites. What we all, I think, immediately
recognize is Francis understands art, and he
understands poetry, and he knows what poetry
does. We don't talk about God or about Jesus
or about the Holy Spirit. We instantiate the
Holy Spirit and Jesus in the work that we do.
This is not theology. It's not philosophy. It's
not an ology at all. It is a made thing, an artifact,
hopefully a beautiful artifact, whether it's
a painting or a sculpture or a piece of music,
a film or a poem, in which we see God when we
experience the divine in the process of reading
the poem or looking at the statue or watching
the film. And Francis gets that, this idea of
enfleshment, this idea of making palpable for
people to feel and touch and taste and smell
God. Francis, of course, is famous for his wonderful
expressions that talk about enfleshment. Remember,
one of his directives to priests and pastors
when he first became pope was like, go out among
the people so you get the smell of the sheep
on you, which is just such a lovely expression
because the fact is, you know, a shepherd, the
sheep know his smell and he knows their smell.
And that sort of elemental connection to the
real, the Catholic writer Flannery O 'Connor
talks about. about the artist lives his or her
life in hotly in pursuit of the real. And Francis
always struck me as somebody whose feet were
firmly on the ground. He was very much in pursuit
of the real. We've had other marvelous popes
who were scholars and sort of lived a very heady
kind of intellectual life. That was not Francis.
He was somebody who lived, you know, was much
more earthbound like us writers because we're
pretty earthbound in many ways. even though poets
have this reputation for being, like, you know,
prophetic and sort of otherworldly, really, we're
pretty earthy people. Yeah, yeah, the famous
quote about, you know, the scent, the smell of
the shepherd and the sheep, I mean, it's so visceral,
you know, as in the Franciscan world, you know,
we really connect that to St. Francis of Assisi
and this incarnational spirituality, but it's
really, Like you said, it's a really beautiful
thing to have a pope who is so down to earth
and earthy, like you said. It's a great word.
I mean, someone who's about experience. And yeah,
yeah. I cannot believe that you were able to
have that experience there with a bunch of other
artists with him. It's incredible. It really
was incredible. And I will mention, just to drop
a name, besides Pope Francis's name, one of the
people who was with us was Martin Scorsese. And
it was so charming to watch the two of those,
because here they are, both men in their 80s,
right? still at the height of their powers. And
they were like schoolboys. Scorsese was obviously
so delighted to meet Pope Francis, and Pope Francis
was so delighted to meet him. And so there was
just something about the, you know, and Scorsese,
of course, is a very... very famous Catholic
artist, you know, and somebody whose work is
very, it's very contemporary, and it also is
very controversial. And here's Francis. Francis
embraces everybody. Here's Francis embracing
him. Everybody brought the Pope a gift, but the
gift that Scorsese brought was, this was just
before his film, The Killers of the Flower Moon
came out, which is about the Osage people. So
his gift to Pope Francis was a calligraphied
copy of the Our Father written in the Osage language.
Oh, wow. So it's just like, just so perfect,
such a beautiful, you know, irreplaceable gift.
Who else would do that and why? So that was also
very touching to witness that coming together
of, you know, these two. In fact, those of us
who, you know, we're not famous people often
refer to that day that we met Francis as the
day we met the two popes. That's great. Yeah.
So it was, it was really a lovely day, not just
for, you know, those of us who are less well
-known writers, but even for people who are very
well -known, like they knew, Scorsese knew, I'm
in the presence of greatness and I'm very humbled
by it. Yeah. That concludes our special episode
on the life, legacy, and papacy of Pope Francis.
To learn more, I encourage you to visit the show
notes in the description of this episode on whichever
platform that you listen to this podcast. So,
rest in peace, Pope Francis, and please, as Father
Murray said, pray for us. After the music, you'll
hear Pope Francis' own quotations about God's
mercy, an undeniable cornerstone of his papacy.
One of these quotes, as you'll hear, was recorded
after Easter several years ago, which I found
fitting. Thanks for listening to Off the Page.
Peace and all good. I will lead you into the
desert with me And tenderly speak to your heart
Be an architect of mercy. Whoever experiences
divine mercy is impelled to be an architect of
mercy among the least and the poor. In these
littlest brothers, Jesus awaits us. See Matthew
25, verse 40. Let us receive mercy and let us
give mercy. Let us go to the encounter and let
us celebrate Easter in the joy of God. Homily,
St. Peter's Basilica, Friday, March 28, 2014.
Pope Francis at Pontifex, October 7, 2013. Mercy
is the true power that can save humanity and
the world from sin and evil. Mercy has triumphed.
The church throughout the world echoes the angel's
message to the women. Do not be afraid. I know
that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified.
He is not here, for he has been raised. Come,
see the place where he lay. Matthew chapter 28.
This is the culmination of the Gospel. It is
the good news par excellence. Jesus, who was
crucified, is risen. This event is the basis
of our faith and our hope. If Christ were not
raised, Christianity would lose its very meaning.
The whole mission of the Church would lose its
impulse. For this is the point from which it
first set out and continues to set out ever anew.
The message which Christians bring to the world
is this. Jesus, love incarnate, died on the cross
for our sins. But God the Father raised him and
made him the Lord of life and death. In Jesus,
love has triumphed over hatred, mercy over sinfulness,
goodness over evil, truth over falsehood, life
over death. Urbi et Orbi. Loggia of St. Peter's
Basilica, Sunday, April 20, 2014.