WEBVTT 00:00:07.619 --> 00:00:10.320 Welcome to Off the Page, I'm Stephen Copeland. 00:00:10.759 --> 00:00:14.580 2025 is the 800 year anniversary of St. Francis 00:00:14.580 --> 00:00:18.140 of Assisi's Canticle of the Creatures. This poem 00:00:18.140 --> 00:00:20.719 has had a unique and foundational place in Italian 00:00:20.719 --> 00:00:24.219 poetry, and it reflects Francis's deeply relational 00:00:24.219 --> 00:00:27.539 spirituality as he names different elements of 00:00:27.539 --> 00:00:31.679 creation as brother, and sister. The circumstances 00:00:31.679 --> 00:00:34.740 from which this poem arose, however, may surprise 00:00:34.740 --> 00:00:37.979 you. When Francis wrote these beautiful words 00:00:37.979 --> 00:00:40.700 in the canticle, his life was actually quite 00:00:40.700 --> 00:00:44.939 bleak and miserable. This episode's guest argues 00:00:44.939 --> 00:00:47.600 that the canticle flowed from Francis's spirituality 00:00:47.600 --> 00:00:52.020 of letting go. which he learned to practice throughout 00:00:52.020 --> 00:00:55.659 his life more and more. This, she shares in her 00:00:55.659 --> 00:00:58.399 April 2025 cover story in the St. Anthony Messenger, 00:00:58.700 --> 00:01:02.240 is its own invitation to each of us. It's an 00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:04.739 honor to introduce to you our next guest on Off 00:01:04.739 --> 00:01:09.650 the Page, Dr. Darlene Prides. Darlene is the 00:01:09.650 --> 00:01:11.969 academic director of the Master of Theological 00:01:11.969 --> 00:01:15.510 Studies Franciscan Theology online degree at 00:01:15.510 --> 00:01:18.650 the Franciscan School of Theology in San Diego, 00:01:18.930 --> 00:01:22.670 California. She has taught at FST since 2001, 00:01:22.930 --> 00:01:26.049 and she has a special interest in lay Franciscan 00:01:26.049 --> 00:01:29.370 spirituality and leadership. She's a historian, 00:01:29.709 --> 00:01:32.510 she's a scholar, and she's the author of Women 00:01:32.510 --> 00:01:35.489 of the Streets, Early Franciscan Women and Their 00:01:35.489 --> 00:01:40.480 Mendicant Vocation. Why is a spirituality of 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:44.299 letting go so vital for our hearts and our minds? 00:01:44.700 --> 00:01:48.219 How can it lead to peace and freedom? How does 00:01:48.219 --> 00:01:51.060 the Franciscan approach to letting go align with 00:01:51.060 --> 00:01:53.680 other religious traditions like Buddhism? And 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:56.760 how can St. Francis of Assisi and his life circumstance 00:01:56.760 --> 00:01:59.840 from which the canticle flowed out of be a model 00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:03.569 for us in our own lives? We explore these questions 00:02:03.569 --> 00:02:06.390 and more in this special episode celebrating 00:02:06.390 --> 00:02:10.409 the anniversary of St. Francis of Assisi's Canticle 00:02:10.409 --> 00:02:13.990 of the Creatures. One final thing, to keep the 00:02:13.990 --> 00:02:16.849 episode at an hour, we did not include reflection 00:02:16.849 --> 00:02:20.110 segments this episode, but you'll find that Darlene 00:02:20.110 --> 00:02:22.729 speaks in such a deliberate and contemplative 00:02:22.729 --> 00:02:25.729 way that I invite you to pause throughout the 00:02:25.729 --> 00:02:27.710 episode whenever your heart feels stirred to 00:02:27.710 --> 00:02:31.509 do so and reflect on what she said. So there's 00:02:31.509 --> 00:02:34.310 no shortage of Franciscan Lexio moments for you 00:02:34.310 --> 00:02:37.009 to choose from in a conversation with Darlene 00:02:37.009 --> 00:02:40.090 Prides. So without further ado, here's our next 00:02:40.090 --> 00:02:45.159 guest, Darlene. Prides. Darlene Prides, this 00:02:45.159 --> 00:02:47.900 is way overdue. Welcome to Off the Page. Hi, 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:50.680 Stephen. Thanks for this invitation. I look forward 00:02:50.680 --> 00:02:53.479 to our conversation. I'm really looking forward 00:02:53.479 --> 00:02:55.479 to it. We're going to dive into your April 2025 00:02:55.479 --> 00:02:58.360 cover story in the St. Anthony Messenger. Your 00:02:58.360 --> 00:03:00.360 cover story is based around the Canticle of the 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:03.280 Creatures here in this year where we're celebrating 00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:06.719 the 800 -year anniversary of this beautiful Italian 00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:11.099 poem. So to begin, Can you tell me about the 00:03:11.099 --> 00:03:14.500 first time that you read St. Francis of Assisi's 00:03:14.500 --> 00:03:16.900 Canticle of the Creatures and what impact it 00:03:16.900 --> 00:03:23.120 had on you? Yeah, so full confession. I read 00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:26.979 it the first time as a freshman in college, and 00:03:26.979 --> 00:03:29.560 I read it alongside The Little Flowers of St. 00:03:29.699 --> 00:03:34.090 Francis, and I hated them. I really just hated 00:03:34.090 --> 00:03:36.509 it. I found it sappy. I found it sentimental. 00:03:36.669 --> 00:03:40.349 I was really dealing with a lot of stuff around 00:03:40.349 --> 00:03:44.669 religion and Christianity. And so I didn't like 00:03:44.669 --> 00:03:50.409 all the God talk. And as I've said this in other 00:03:50.409 --> 00:03:54.169 forums, this is how God works, right? God hooked 00:03:54.169 --> 00:03:57.830 me this way because I just started studying Franciscan 00:03:57.830 --> 00:04:00.969 history after that. It was a way for me to... 00:04:01.789 --> 00:04:06.189 to try to understand Francis's life story. And 00:04:06.189 --> 00:04:09.750 what happened, I went and got a PhD in Franciscan 00:04:09.750 --> 00:04:13.770 history. And along the way, I eventually returned 00:04:13.770 --> 00:04:18.089 to the faith and started rereading the canticle, 00:04:18.189 --> 00:04:21.110 rereading the little flowers, and coming up with 00:04:21.110 --> 00:04:25.220 a deeper appreciation. But I'll be honest, it's 00:04:25.220 --> 00:04:27.279 only within the last few years as I've gotten 00:04:27.279 --> 00:04:30.100 older that my appreciation for the Canticle has 00:04:30.100 --> 00:04:35.100 really deepened. As I understand how Francis 00:04:35.100 --> 00:04:39.379 came to write it and come to understanding my 00:04:39.379 --> 00:04:43.699 own life trajectory and entering into this last 00:04:43.699 --> 00:04:48.439 phase of life myself, the Canticle has a richer 00:04:48.439 --> 00:04:52.500 meaning. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about 00:04:52.500 --> 00:04:56.680 that depth of meaning and how it kind of bloomed 00:04:56.680 --> 00:05:01.060 for you? And maybe that'll get us into explaining 00:05:01.060 --> 00:05:03.759 the background to this poem, because I think 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:06.620 when a lot of people read this, at least when 00:05:06.620 --> 00:05:10.029 I first read it, it was just like. This sounds 00:05:10.029 --> 00:05:14.209 euphoric. This sounds kind of, frankly, naive. 00:05:14.949 --> 00:05:19.110 Like this flowery kind of poem. And then as I 00:05:19.110 --> 00:05:21.769 started to learn more about it as well, I was 00:05:21.769 --> 00:05:24.629 like, oh my gosh, the period of time from which 00:05:24.629 --> 00:05:28.269 this arose is really quite remarkable. So can 00:05:28.269 --> 00:05:31.329 you take listeners into that for me? Yeah, absolutely. 00:05:33.230 --> 00:05:35.790 I think that for a lot of us, especially the 00:05:35.790 --> 00:05:38.290 first time we come to reading this canticle or 00:05:38.290 --> 00:05:40.569 hearing the canticle, we assume it's from the 00:05:40.569 --> 00:05:42.889 young Francis. You know, for those of us who've 00:05:42.889 --> 00:05:45.730 watched Brother, Son, Sister Moon Zaffarelli's 00:05:45.730 --> 00:05:51.029 movie, we think it's about the young Francis 00:05:51.029 --> 00:05:54.470 running through fields and with music of Donovan 00:05:54.470 --> 00:05:56.810 in the background. But no, it really comes near 00:05:56.810 --> 00:05:59.610 the end of his life, the last year of his life 00:05:59.610 --> 00:06:02.689 that he starts composing it. So it's really a 00:06:02.689 --> 00:06:07.009 representation of his mature faith, and he has 00:06:07.009 --> 00:06:10.189 gone through so much, and it's not just a simple 00:06:10.189 --> 00:06:15.370 trajectory. It is a complex life of ongoing conversion, 00:06:15.730 --> 00:06:21.410 ongoing transformation, ongoing letting go, even 00:06:21.410 --> 00:06:27.959 of some of his most... beloved thoughts and aspirations, 00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:33.259 perhaps, aspirations for his community. I think 00:06:33.259 --> 00:06:37.699 the way I view the canticle now is I start situating 00:06:37.699 --> 00:06:44.920 it around 1220, when he is letting go of leadership 00:06:44.920 --> 00:06:48.360 of the friars. He recognizes by this time, not 00:06:48.360 --> 00:06:53.019 only is his health declining, but He doesn't 00:06:53.019 --> 00:06:56.839 have the capacity to be an administrator, an 00:06:56.839 --> 00:07:01.459 organizer, a manager of a growing order of men. 00:07:02.040 --> 00:07:06.060 My colleague Bill Short uses this phrase that 00:07:06.060 --> 00:07:08.899 I just love, and I think it encapsulates Francis's 00:07:08.899 --> 00:07:11.959 way of being so well. He was clearly charismatic, 00:07:12.180 --> 00:07:15.680 and people were attracted to him, but he couldn't 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:23.310 organize Lent in his pocket. And that's it. He 00:07:23.310 --> 00:07:25.689 couldn't organize Lent in his pocket, but he 00:07:25.689 --> 00:07:29.389 couldn't organize a whole group of diverse men. 00:07:30.350 --> 00:07:34.990 So he lets go and renounces his leadership of 00:07:34.990 --> 00:07:40.170 the order. And what happens to him when he retires 00:07:40.170 --> 00:07:42.250 from leadership? That's what happens to any of 00:07:42.250 --> 00:07:46.110 us when we retire or let go of a task or a project 00:07:46.110 --> 00:07:49.899 that we really love. It's hard to let go. He 00:07:49.899 --> 00:07:53.379 starts observing what the other guys are doing, 00:07:53.420 --> 00:07:55.100 and he says, no, it's not supposed to be like 00:07:55.100 --> 00:07:58.899 that. What are you doing? I don't even recognize 00:07:58.899 --> 00:08:01.100 you anymore. He gets petulant. He gets angry. 00:08:01.259 --> 00:08:05.980 He does all these very human things and has all 00:08:05.980 --> 00:08:09.819 these human emotions that I really appreciate. 00:08:11.160 --> 00:08:15.220 He's not this simple, sentimental guy who can 00:08:15.220 --> 00:08:17.519 just run around in the woods all day long. No. 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:23.120 He's really feeling it. He's unashamedly himself, 00:08:23.459 --> 00:08:26.860 it seems like. Absolutely. He can't help himself. 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:29.279 He's Italian. You know, he just can't help himself. 00:08:29.740 --> 00:08:35.419 He lets go with his emotions. And he's really 00:08:35.419 --> 00:08:39.279 quite petulant with his brothers. And this one 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:41.960 passage that I especially like is like, I don't 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:45.029 even recognize you anymore. I don't even recognize 00:08:45.029 --> 00:08:47.370 it. Who are you? So it's a depiction of him, 00:08:47.429 --> 00:08:50.230 but it's an honest depiction, and it's actually 00:08:50.230 --> 00:08:53.129 probably from the Assisi compilation, because 00:08:53.129 --> 00:08:57.070 that's the compilation of stories from his companions 00:08:57.070 --> 00:08:59.789 where we get the real gritty Francis, right? 00:09:00.070 --> 00:09:04.990 The real Francis. And I appreciate that. And 00:09:04.990 --> 00:09:07.509 so he did have to wrestle with his own emotions. 00:09:07.529 --> 00:09:10.490 He had to wrestle with letting go. He had to 00:09:10.490 --> 00:09:13.419 wrestle with his health. Yeah, and what were 00:09:13.419 --> 00:09:17.960 some of the health issues he was battling at 00:09:17.960 --> 00:09:20.059 this time in his life when he wrote The Canticle 00:09:20.059 --> 00:09:22.440 of the Creatures? Yeah, well, he had this chronic 00:09:22.440 --> 00:09:25.159 eye disease that was very painful. And ultimately, 00:09:25.340 --> 00:09:28.879 at the friar's insistence, he sought medical 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:31.460 attention and the doctor cauterized his eyes. 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:34.659 So you can imagine how painful that is. He didn't 00:09:34.659 --> 00:09:36.919 eat well. He didn't take good care of his body. 00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:41.320 So he suffered from malnutrition and weakness. 00:09:42.639 --> 00:09:50.559 So he is declining in health along this way. 00:09:52.860 --> 00:09:55.759 I mean, in a very real sense, he's nearing his 00:09:55.759 --> 00:09:58.759 deathbed, correct? Like his weakness, his frailty. 00:09:59.620 --> 00:10:02.360 Eventually. And that's why I'd like to see this 00:10:02.360 --> 00:10:04.940 across, however, six years rather than just the 00:10:04.940 --> 00:10:06.820 last year of writing The Canticle, because I 00:10:06.820 --> 00:10:09.580 think the background is necessary. He's ongoing 00:10:09.580 --> 00:10:12.509 letting go, letting go, letting go. Finally, 00:10:12.590 --> 00:10:16.730 when he's at San Damiano being cared for by Claire 00:10:16.730 --> 00:10:21.029 and the sisters, and he's surrounded by mice, 00:10:21.169 --> 00:10:24.330 who he apparently doesn't like mice and rodents 00:10:24.330 --> 00:10:27.230 running around him, he's in pain, recovering 00:10:27.230 --> 00:10:31.070 from this cauterization treatment. That's when 00:10:31.070 --> 00:10:34.000 he says, Praise to you, Lord, through Brother 00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:37.340 Sun, Sister Moon. When he's finally composing 00:10:37.340 --> 00:10:40.480 the canticle, he's at this place where he's already 00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:43.740 given up so much. He's processed all of these 00:10:43.740 --> 00:10:48.340 emotions and all of these situations, situations 00:10:48.340 --> 00:10:53.299 that don't rest easy with him. What does he find 00:10:53.299 --> 00:10:57.620 himself? He finds himself surrounded by God through 00:10:57.620 --> 00:11:00.889 all of creation. And all these reasons to praise 00:11:00.889 --> 00:11:03.370 God through all of creation. He might have had 00:11:03.370 --> 00:11:05.789 to let go of this, that, and the other. But he 00:11:05.789 --> 00:11:08.809 still has God. He still has his faith. And so 00:11:08.809 --> 00:11:14.710 now, far from being the 18 -year -old freshman, 00:11:15.289 --> 00:11:19.909 I just had my birthday. I'm 64 years old. I'm 00:11:19.909 --> 00:11:23.929 just now finally, finally grasping the depth 00:11:23.929 --> 00:11:26.490 of the canticle. And it can bring me to tears. 00:11:26.669 --> 00:11:29.889 It can really bring me to tears. What stirs you 00:11:29.889 --> 00:11:32.889 so much emotionally at this time in your life 00:11:32.889 --> 00:12:01.299 about the canticle? many hopes and expectations 00:12:01.299 --> 00:12:05.899 of my life, I realize how much more beautiful 00:12:05.899 --> 00:12:10.200 life is. And that with my faith and with the 00:12:10.200 --> 00:12:12.840 natural world around me, with the relationships 00:12:12.840 --> 00:12:15.559 I have, there's so much beauty, so much more 00:12:15.559 --> 00:12:20.139 beauty than what I had been hoping for. So it's 00:12:20.139 --> 00:12:23.179 his life story and then reflecting on my own 00:12:23.179 --> 00:12:27.659 life story that gives me the capacity to... really 00:12:27.659 --> 00:12:31.519 see the canticle in new light. Yeah, we're going 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:36.460 to get into the spirituality of letting go, of 00:12:36.460 --> 00:12:40.519 releasing ourselves, of our attachments, these 00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:43.960 things that we're clinging to. I find myself 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:46.679 always clinging to things, thinking that that 00:12:46.679 --> 00:12:49.340 thing is going to convince myself that I'm whole 00:12:49.340 --> 00:12:53.580 or complete when all along. You know, it's what 00:12:53.580 --> 00:12:56.080 it's that dynamic you're bringing us into that 00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:59.419 we'll go into later. It's in letting go. It's 00:12:59.419 --> 00:13:04.399 almost as if there's more space for truth to 00:13:04.399 --> 00:13:08.240 flow through. But I wanted to get into something 00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:13.600 real quick. The the context of you writing this 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:19.830 cover story. It's no surprise that you. Very 00:13:19.830 --> 00:13:23.169 early on in your cover story, you get into this 00:13:23.169 --> 00:13:25.169 element of suffering that you've been describing 00:13:25.169 --> 00:13:28.929 in Frances's life. But you yourself were going 00:13:28.929 --> 00:13:33.049 through something quite unfathomable. And your 00:13:33.049 --> 00:13:35.090 loved ones were at the time that you're assigned 00:13:35.090 --> 00:13:37.950 this cover story. Can you go into that? Yeah. 00:13:38.350 --> 00:13:44.629 So I was writing this in January of 2025. I had 00:13:44.629 --> 00:13:47.190 already outlined a version of the article back 00:13:47.190 --> 00:13:50.429 in December, and then the fires erupted in Los 00:13:50.429 --> 00:13:54.389 Angeles, in Pacific Palisades and Altadena, which 00:13:54.389 --> 00:13:57.190 happened to be two places I had lived while I 00:13:57.190 --> 00:14:01.750 was in college. I had lived in a community of 00:14:01.750 --> 00:14:05.610 many families up in Altadena, and I had been 00:14:05.610 --> 00:14:09.009 house -sitting out in Pacific Palisades for a 00:14:09.009 --> 00:14:17.879 year. The stories, seeing the footage of the 00:14:17.879 --> 00:14:24.179 fires and seeing the photographs and then reconnecting 00:14:24.179 --> 00:14:26.399 with the people I'd lived with, it was just devastating. 00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:32.080 And still, I can feel it viscerally. It is heartbreaking 00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:36.519 to see the destruction. But what remains are 00:14:36.519 --> 00:14:39.019 these friendships with the people I'd lived with. 00:14:40.029 --> 00:14:44.429 So while I was experiencing this pain and suffering 00:14:44.429 --> 00:14:47.289 of the destruction of these places that I grew 00:14:47.289 --> 00:14:53.629 to love, I reconnected with people. And so it's 00:14:53.629 --> 00:14:57.610 balanced or it's just this almost this roller 00:14:57.610 --> 00:15:00.529 coaster of emotions because I feel so grateful 00:15:00.529 --> 00:15:03.629 for the opportunities to know those people, to 00:15:03.629 --> 00:15:08.019 have lived with those people. So yes, I was wrestling 00:15:08.019 --> 00:15:10.539 with a lot of emotions when I was writing this 00:15:10.539 --> 00:15:14.539 article. Yeah, well, it's interesting to me. 00:15:14.580 --> 00:15:16.519 I'm not trying to make a false equivalency here 00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:19.440 between what you were navigating and your loved 00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:21.519 ones were navigating and what Francis was navigating 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:25.419 when he wrote this. But it's very interesting 00:15:25.419 --> 00:15:29.360 to me that you're assigned this article. When 00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:31.279 people think of Canticle of the Creatures, they 00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:34.019 think of this beautiful poem that is praising. 00:15:34.700 --> 00:15:39.179 God in creation. And yet brother fire, as you 00:15:39.179 --> 00:15:41.919 call it, is wrecking this place that you love 00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:43.940 as you're trying to write this article. And, 00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:47.259 and to me, that's really, I love this piece so 00:15:47.259 --> 00:15:49.759 much. And that's the architecture of it is that 00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:57.019 just like Francis, this frail, very one would 00:15:57.019 --> 00:15:59.480 maybe say a miserable, quite miserable, physically 00:15:59.480 --> 00:16:03.049 miserable time in his life. that's when this 00:16:03.049 --> 00:16:07.730 beautiful poem rises up. It's this collision, 00:16:07.730 --> 00:16:12.970 it seems, of suffering, of confronting the reality 00:16:12.970 --> 00:16:18.169 of suffering. And then also, well, there's beauty 00:16:18.169 --> 00:16:22.110 here too. And in a mysterious sense, there's 00:16:22.110 --> 00:16:27.029 God here too. And what does all this mean? And 00:16:27.029 --> 00:16:31.419 for Francis, he wrote a song. He did write a 00:16:31.419 --> 00:16:38.799 song, and that makes it rather simple, but I 00:16:38.799 --> 00:16:41.980 think the collision, as you call it, is anything 00:16:41.980 --> 00:16:47.500 but simple. It is complex, and we tend to see 00:16:47.500 --> 00:16:49.899 one side or the other. There's all suffering 00:16:49.899 --> 00:16:52.679 or there's all beauty, and by noticing it's all 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:55.549 together. And by noticing the beauty, you're 00:16:55.549 --> 00:16:57.950 not discounting the suffering. It's all there 00:16:57.950 --> 00:17:01.809 together. I think that is what brings depth to 00:17:01.809 --> 00:17:04.250 the canticle, but also depth to these experiences 00:17:04.250 --> 00:17:08.990 for me. I'm not dismissing the suffering by noticing 00:17:08.990 --> 00:17:13.250 the beauty that is arising in the rebuilding 00:17:13.250 --> 00:17:15.589 of these communities. And I understand there's 00:17:15.589 --> 00:17:18.890 great complexity in the rebuilding of these communities, 00:17:18.970 --> 00:17:23.960 great complexity and hardship. are beautiful 00:17:23.960 --> 00:17:27.980 relationships that are being forged. So it's 00:17:27.980 --> 00:17:34.220 both and. And I guess I could jump to talking 00:17:34.220 --> 00:17:37.640 about an image that I often use specifically 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:40.740 to talk about Francis near the end of his life 00:17:40.740 --> 00:17:43.099 as he's writing this canticle, because I think 00:17:43.099 --> 00:17:46.980 it encapsulates much better than my own life 00:17:46.980 --> 00:17:51.519 stories or my own reflection. And that is from 00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:54.380 a statue that used to be at Mission Santa Barbara 00:17:54.380 --> 00:17:58.980 in California. It was a huge statue. It was probably 00:17:58.980 --> 00:18:01.960 six, seven, maybe seven feet tall. It was very 00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:04.539 big. It was on a pedestal. So it was even taller 00:18:04.539 --> 00:18:08.099 than that, 10 feet maybe. And it was made out 00:18:08.099 --> 00:18:11.579 of driftwood. So rather than just a branch of 00:18:11.579 --> 00:18:14.220 driftwood, imagine a whole tree of driftwood 00:18:14.220 --> 00:18:18.579 that someone had carved an image of Francis out 00:18:18.579 --> 00:18:21.119 of. And you can tell that Francis was originally 00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:24.579 holding maybe a bird in his hand in front of 00:18:24.579 --> 00:18:29.380 him. But as driftwood does, it was decaying. 00:18:29.579 --> 00:18:32.839 And it decayed rather quickly. But it decayed 00:18:32.839 --> 00:18:35.299 in one part. It decayed around the heart space. 00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:39.880 And this whole space here of the statue was gone. 00:18:40.619 --> 00:18:43.339 And that is where you could see that this log 00:18:43.339 --> 00:18:48.309 was really redwood. A colleague and a friend 00:18:48.309 --> 00:18:51.369 of mine, Sister Christine Still noted in a retreat 00:18:51.369 --> 00:18:54.490 that I was giving, she said, notice that that 00:18:54.490 --> 00:18:56.950 is the only place where you can see the true 00:18:56.950 --> 00:19:00.289 color of the wood, where it has disintegrated, 00:19:00.309 --> 00:19:04.630 where it has fallen away. And I feel there's 00:19:04.630 --> 00:19:07.490 so much wisdom in that insight that Sister Christine 00:19:07.490 --> 00:19:11.849 offered. You know, we build up our lives. Francis, 00:19:11.869 --> 00:19:14.529 too, he was building up his life by letting go. 00:19:16.200 --> 00:19:19.380 In our careers, we build up a persona, an identity 00:19:19.380 --> 00:19:23.579 through our work, through our families. And really, 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:26.740 when we let go of what is not essential, that 00:19:26.740 --> 00:19:30.779 is where the true color is. And that is in that 00:19:30.779 --> 00:19:35.039 heart space. So I hope that makes sense. I use 00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:39.980 that image a lot. I keep a photograph of it above 00:19:39.980 --> 00:19:43.579 my desk just to reflect on daily because I think. 00:19:44.329 --> 00:19:46.930 That helps me with the natural process of letting 00:19:46.930 --> 00:19:50.589 go in life. You've hit on it several times already, 00:19:50.769 --> 00:19:55.009 but this spirituality of letting go that your 00:19:55.009 --> 00:20:00.089 cover story really revolves around in this movement 00:20:00.089 --> 00:20:02.349 that you invite the readers into. I mean, that 00:20:02.349 --> 00:20:04.849 image is so powerful. We could probably spend 00:20:04.849 --> 00:20:06.930 the rest of this podcast talking about that image. 00:20:07.150 --> 00:20:11.130 Like the most authentic piece of the tree is 00:20:11.130 --> 00:20:13.960 shining through the brokenness. of his chest, 00:20:14.019 --> 00:20:17.640 his heart. Yeah, so this spirituality of letting 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:23.500 go, go deeper into that for me. What does that 00:20:23.500 --> 00:20:28.160 look like in our everyday lives? And why do you 00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:32.680 think this is so important for people to perhaps 00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:38.220 contemplate or give a chance? Yeah, I think a 00:20:38.220 --> 00:20:42.039 couple things there. First of all, Of course, 00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:45.440 still using that image of the statue, I would 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:48.140 say that this heart space has been opened to 00:20:48.140 --> 00:20:51.359 be filled with Christ. I mean, that is what Franciscan 00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:54.220 spirituality is about, to be Christocentric and 00:20:54.220 --> 00:20:58.240 to be filled with Christ, Christ's love, and 00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:01.700 to live into that love more deeply. And so what 00:21:01.700 --> 00:21:06.099 does that mean to me as a Christian, as a Franciscan 00:21:06.099 --> 00:21:12.819 Christian, leads me to Another aspect that I 00:21:12.819 --> 00:21:15.960 try to cultivate in my daily life, and that is 00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:19.440 to let go of my assumptions, let go of my expectations. 00:21:20.119 --> 00:21:23.099 Assumptions and expectations are all about controlling 00:21:23.099 --> 00:21:27.539 a situation, right? And to develop a sense of 00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:32.160 curiosity, curiosity about the person I'm talking 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:36.539 with, what is their perspective. curiosity about 00:21:36.539 --> 00:21:38.660 myself you know what's coming up for me in this 00:21:38.660 --> 00:21:41.599 time in this moment am i feeling scared am i 00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:45.900 feeling nervous can i own that or and when i 00:21:45.900 --> 00:21:49.480 can really reflect deeply on my own experiences 00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:56.180 then i can respond rather than react and i think 00:21:56.180 --> 00:22:00.799 we have in francis's life and his trajectory 00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:04.700 of ongoing conversion, we have a lot of episodes 00:22:04.700 --> 00:22:08.660 of his reactivity. He gets really reactive to 00:22:08.660 --> 00:22:11.079 the leper at first, and then he starts working 00:22:11.079 --> 00:22:15.259 with that reactivity. In Celano's text, it's 00:22:15.259 --> 00:22:19.539 that he, in grace of God, allows him to turn 00:22:19.539 --> 00:22:23.589 around and face the leper again. That is true. 00:22:23.869 --> 00:22:27.210 And I also imagine that he had to work with his 00:22:27.210 --> 00:22:31.210 own capacity to face the leper. And he had to 00:22:31.210 --> 00:22:33.470 do this over and over again. So I think it's 00:22:33.470 --> 00:22:37.609 both and. So those are some of the ways that 00:22:37.609 --> 00:22:42.089 I consider the spirituality in my life today. 00:22:42.750 --> 00:22:45.369 Yeah, because Francis, even in the context of 00:22:45.369 --> 00:22:48.950 his relationship with lepers, I mean, correct 00:22:48.950 --> 00:22:51.650 me here if I'm wrong, but I mean, he's letting 00:22:51.650 --> 00:22:55.809 go. He's letting go of everything that he had 00:22:55.809 --> 00:22:59.829 been told growing up about who lepers were, why 00:22:59.829 --> 00:23:02.009 you should avoid them. He's letting go of his 00:23:02.009 --> 00:23:05.829 own judgments, his own kind of preconceived notions 00:23:05.829 --> 00:23:10.890 that he had about them. And I mean, it's easy 00:23:10.890 --> 00:23:13.670 to gloss over that, but that's a scary thing. 00:23:13.869 --> 00:23:19.579 Like that is a scary thing to let go of. thoughts, 00:23:19.700 --> 00:23:24.019 judgments, whatever it may be that you've been 00:23:24.019 --> 00:23:29.259 holding true and you're realizing that, no, I'm 00:23:29.259 --> 00:23:35.019 off base here. Absolutely. And I think there's 00:23:35.019 --> 00:23:38.740 even a gentler way rather than self -judgment 00:23:38.740 --> 00:23:41.779 of I'm off base, but there is more here. There 00:23:41.779 --> 00:23:45.859 is more here than I knew. And can I open myself 00:23:45.859 --> 00:23:50.519 up? And that involves letting go of my assumptions 00:23:50.519 --> 00:23:57.420 and my habits, my habits of judging, my habits 00:23:57.420 --> 00:24:02.319 of holding firm to certain rules or assumptions 00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:06.200 again. So there's a lot of vulnerability in this 00:24:06.200 --> 00:24:11.579 letting go. And it's no surprise that Francis's 00:24:11.579 --> 00:24:14.779 conversion was ongoing. And when I tell his life 00:24:14.779 --> 00:24:18.619 story, when I teach, You know, I feel that he 00:24:18.619 --> 00:24:22.000 was converting up until his very last breath, 00:24:22.099 --> 00:24:27.200 up until he was meeting Sister Death. And there 00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:30.759 was this still ongoing letting go of expectations 00:24:30.759 --> 00:24:36.220 and rules. After all, he invited Lady Jacoba 00:24:36.220 --> 00:24:39.119 to be with him. And there was technically a rule 00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:44.099 of no women at the porticula, but there she is. 00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:48.319 because rules didn't serve in that moment, in 00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:53.019 that moment. So he was really quite profound, 00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:56.200 and I think there's a lot for all of us to reflect 00:24:56.200 --> 00:25:02.400 on and to pray with in his life of ongoing conversion. 00:25:03.470 --> 00:25:06.289 Yeah. Are there any other examples that come 00:25:06.289 --> 00:25:09.730 to mind for you in Francis's life or Claire's 00:25:09.730 --> 00:25:12.450 life for that matter, where the spirituality 00:25:12.450 --> 00:25:16.529 of letting go is kind of unfolding? You mentioned 00:25:16.529 --> 00:25:18.950 the lepers. Then you mentioned at the end of 00:25:18.950 --> 00:25:21.329 his life as well, where the canicle rises up 00:25:21.329 --> 00:25:23.910 from. I mean, he's letting go of a lot there 00:25:23.910 --> 00:25:26.769 as well. Anything else come to mind for you? 00:25:29.069 --> 00:25:31.230 You know, recently we celebrated the anniversary 00:25:31.230 --> 00:25:37.630 of the Nativity at Greccio. And the way I talk 00:25:37.630 --> 00:25:39.769 about the story of Greccio, because we can just 00:25:39.769 --> 00:25:42.650 start in Greccio itself, but if we go back a 00:25:42.650 --> 00:25:49.609 little bit, we recognize that the rule that was 00:25:49.609 --> 00:25:55.630 accepted by the Pope, the Regula Bulata, had 00:25:55.630 --> 00:25:59.640 just been... sealed by the Pope. And this signals 00:25:59.640 --> 00:26:02.980 a new institutionalization of the order. And 00:26:02.980 --> 00:26:06.720 by all accounts, this was leading the order in 00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:10.099 a new direction, a way that Francis hadn't anticipated, 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:14.819 and that wasn't his original vision. And so perhaps 00:26:14.819 --> 00:26:19.880 he left Rome saddened. Perhaps he felt dejected. 00:26:19.880 --> 00:26:22.359 Perhaps he felt depressed or maybe unwanted or, 00:26:22.359 --> 00:26:25.900 you know, who knows? As a leader who has given 00:26:25.900 --> 00:26:29.759 up leadership of the order and now seeing an 00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:33.140 institutionalization take place that he hadn't 00:26:33.140 --> 00:26:38.140 anticipated, it's not hard to assume that he 00:26:38.140 --> 00:26:42.940 was sad. And so what does he do? Instead of just 00:26:42.940 --> 00:26:45.259 going straight up to Assisi, it takes several 00:26:45.259 --> 00:26:48.220 days to get up there anyway, he sidetracks and 00:26:48.220 --> 00:26:51.200 goes over to Greccio. Not an easy place to get 00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:54.220 to. It's not easy even today. It's not easy to 00:26:54.220 --> 00:26:58.680 get to. But he goes there for solace and for 00:26:58.680 --> 00:27:01.759 community and to share faith with the people 00:27:01.759 --> 00:27:04.319 he loves. He loves the people of Greccio. He 00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:08.660 knows them to be very faithful. They had devotional 00:27:08.660 --> 00:27:11.940 circles in their homes. He appreciated the depth 00:27:11.940 --> 00:27:15.960 of their faith. And that's where he goes to fill 00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:19.160 himself up again with the love of Christ. So 00:27:19.160 --> 00:27:22.920 in this time of what I think is sadness and perhaps 00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:26.900 doubt, he surrounds himself with people he loves, 00:27:27.220 --> 00:27:32.279 lay people, and they celebrate together the incarnation, 00:27:32.759 --> 00:27:37.579 the birth of Christ, in a new way and in a visceral 00:27:37.579 --> 00:27:44.069 way. I think he was letting go, perhaps, of possibly 00:27:44.069 --> 00:27:49.009 some habit energy of reactivity, of judgment, 00:27:49.089 --> 00:27:52.950 possibly. That's just a speculation. But he finds 00:27:52.950 --> 00:27:56.549 himself surrounded with people of faith, and 00:27:56.549 --> 00:28:00.930 they develop this or create this beautiful commemoration 00:28:00.930 --> 00:28:05.769 of Christ's birth. And I think that's really 00:28:05.769 --> 00:28:10.539 important for us to hit on here, is that When 00:28:10.539 --> 00:28:14.880 it comes to the spirituality of letting go, someone 00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:17.960 listening may think to themselves, um, hello, 00:28:18.099 --> 00:28:20.400 that sounds torturous. Why in the world would 00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:23.839 I do that? I like my control. I like my judgments. 00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:28.000 I like my certainty. However, from a Christian 00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:30.220 kind of theological perspective, I'm curious 00:28:30.220 --> 00:28:34.779 what you think about this, but God has been letting 00:28:34.779 --> 00:28:39.779 go and we see that in the incarnation. this self 00:28:39.779 --> 00:28:44.640 -emptying, this kenosis. So sometimes in my own 00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:49.079 life, when I'm struggling with letting go, I 00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:52.779 try to remind myself that by giving it a chance, 00:28:52.839 --> 00:28:56.480 I'm actually kind of aligning myself with the 00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:59.930 very trajectory of the Trinity. this Trinity 00:28:59.930 --> 00:29:03.809 that flows forth, that self empties, that is, 00:29:03.910 --> 00:29:06.869 I mean, the incarnation is one reading of it 00:29:06.869 --> 00:29:08.950 would be that it's really quite out of control. 00:29:09.549 --> 00:29:13.349 Like God becoming a human person, becoming a 00:29:13.349 --> 00:29:17.609 baby who's dependent upon breast milk and is 00:29:17.609 --> 00:29:20.589 pooping himself and peeing himself and is completely 00:29:20.589 --> 00:29:25.230 dependent on his mom and dad to literally raise 00:29:25.230 --> 00:29:29.990 him. to life and teach him and nurture him. I 00:29:29.990 --> 00:29:33.009 mean, that is incredibly, talk about letting 00:29:33.009 --> 00:29:38.210 go. I mean, that is a, and Francis was just absolutely 00:29:38.210 --> 00:29:43.089 intrigued and even intrigued, fall short of how 00:29:43.089 --> 00:29:45.289 much the incarnation meant to him. What do you 00:29:45.289 --> 00:29:49.190 have to add there? Well, you're very theological 00:29:49.190 --> 00:29:52.970 and I'm the first to say I'm not a theologian. 00:29:53.029 --> 00:29:57.579 I'm a historian, but I would say that my most 00:29:57.579 --> 00:30:00.680 important teachers in my life, my life of faith, 00:30:00.900 --> 00:30:04.140 but also my life in general, without a doubt, 00:30:04.279 --> 00:30:08.099 the most important teachers I've had are those 00:30:08.099 --> 00:30:11.500 people I serve in hospice, the people who are 00:30:11.500 --> 00:30:14.859 at the end of life, who are letting go of everything. 00:30:16.779 --> 00:30:20.640 They don't have a choice. Some of them obviously 00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:25.849 do wrestle and combat this process of letting 00:30:25.849 --> 00:30:34.049 go. But I have learned so much about the wisdom 00:30:34.049 --> 00:30:41.069 of letting go from them that I've even let go 00:30:41.069 --> 00:30:45.359 of my own assumptions of how to. to be with people 00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:47.920 at the end of life i when i first started volunteering 00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:51.339 as a hospice caregiver i thought it was all about 00:30:51.339 --> 00:30:54.500 talking with them and communicating with them 00:30:54.500 --> 00:30:58.099 and and so what happens the very first person 00:30:58.099 --> 00:31:00.660 that i spend time with we don't speak the same 00:31:00.660 --> 00:31:04.940 language in fact she spoke a language that no 00:31:04.940 --> 00:31:10.140 one understood it was her own language and over 00:31:10.140 --> 00:31:14.569 across two years We got to know each other over 00:31:14.569 --> 00:31:20.690 two years in hospice. We developed a very close 00:31:20.690 --> 00:31:24.390 relationship, a friendship, not through words, 00:31:24.529 --> 00:31:28.410 but by being together, by sipping tea together, 00:31:28.609 --> 00:31:33.390 by looking at books together, mostly by being 00:31:33.390 --> 00:31:38.930 together. So this letting go allows for more 00:31:38.930 --> 00:31:42.460 beauty than one could ever expect. And it leads 00:31:42.460 --> 00:31:45.440 to a certain liberation or freedom, correct? 00:31:45.660 --> 00:31:50.539 Like when we think about the, sounds dry, but 00:31:50.539 --> 00:31:54.460 the practical implications of a spirituality 00:31:54.460 --> 00:31:59.819 of letting go, what we're talking about is how 00:31:59.819 --> 00:32:04.759 can I, my interpretation of it would be, how 00:32:04.759 --> 00:32:09.240 can I awaken to how free I already am? But my 00:32:09.240 --> 00:32:12.140 attachments, and maybe this leads us to Zen and 00:32:12.140 --> 00:32:14.920 Buddhism, but my attachments are the things that 00:32:14.920 --> 00:32:18.920 are causing me suffering. And I think there's 00:32:18.920 --> 00:32:21.339 neuroscience to back this up too, where our brains 00:32:21.339 --> 00:32:24.319 tend to think about the conflict in our lives, 00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:26.160 the negative things in our lives, the things 00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:28.200 that lack resolve in our lives. So you have to 00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:33.519 train it to savor the positive things. And one 00:32:33.519 --> 00:32:36.680 way you train it is by letting go of the things 00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:39.839 I'm trying to control. So do you have anything 00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:43.039 to mention there about freedom, liberation, like 00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:46.180 sell listeners on a spirituality of letting go? 00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:50.720 Because it's painful, is it not? It is painful. 00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:54.460 And I'd actually like to start off by saying 00:32:54.460 --> 00:32:58.259 there are important ways of not letting go, right? 00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:02.279 When I look at my life trajectory, and I see 00:33:02.279 --> 00:33:05.720 this in Francis as well, he was trained to be 00:33:05.720 --> 00:33:08.420 a certain way, to have certain aspirations, and 00:33:08.420 --> 00:33:11.259 I think it's important to have goals. We build 00:33:11.259 --> 00:33:13.880 up our self, our self -identity, through education, 00:33:14.339 --> 00:33:18.940 through work skills, through career aspirations, 00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:24.420 and I don't disparage any of that. in my life 00:33:24.420 --> 00:33:28.339 and in fact I can recall when I was in my 20s 00:33:28.339 --> 00:33:32.480 wanting to follow a completely spiritual path 00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:36.940 and I remember telling myself over and over again 00:33:36.940 --> 00:33:42.000 no first you have to build up to let it go and 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:45.400 I don't know if that's the only way to do this 00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:49.740 but that is what I felt I had to do and I have 00:33:49.740 --> 00:33:56.759 been on this this trajectory of letting go unexpectedly 00:33:56.759 --> 00:34:01.740 in recent years in ways that I didn't plan. So 00:34:01.740 --> 00:34:05.859 there it is. It's not something that you can 00:34:05.859 --> 00:34:11.360 control or plan or really delegate to others 00:34:11.360 --> 00:34:17.719 or to yourself. You know, I really don't want 00:34:17.719 --> 00:34:20.219 to... necessarily be in a position of selling 00:34:20.219 --> 00:34:25.119 this to other people everyone's on there I think 00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:30.820 in the end for Franciscan spirituality I think 00:34:30.820 --> 00:34:34.579 in the end it is very much like what I've come 00:34:34.579 --> 00:34:39.380 to know in a Buddhist path of cultivating curiosity 00:34:39.380 --> 00:34:45.849 of Of saying to oneself, to myself, I really 00:34:45.849 --> 00:34:47.889 don't know. I've made all these assumptions. 00:34:48.050 --> 00:34:51.230 I have all these expectations, but no, I don't 00:34:51.230 --> 00:34:55.230 know. And Buddhists call it cultivating don't 00:34:55.230 --> 00:34:59.570 know mind, beginner's mind. I love that your 00:34:59.570 --> 00:35:03.650 article lands in this space of Thich Nhat Hanh, 00:35:03.829 --> 00:35:09.869 well -known Buddhist teacher. Zen Buddhism's 00:35:09.869 --> 00:35:13.329 alignment with the Franciscans kind of spirituality 00:35:13.329 --> 00:35:17.610 of letting go. So for listeners who perhaps have 00:35:17.610 --> 00:35:21.170 not heard of Thich Nhat Hanh or Zen Buddhism, 00:35:21.429 --> 00:35:26.489 maybe talk about how his teachings and the teachings 00:35:26.489 --> 00:35:29.969 of Zen have been valuable for you in your own 00:35:29.969 --> 00:35:34.829 life and your own Franciscan spirituality. Yeah, 00:35:34.889 --> 00:35:41.380 sure. Let me just focus on Thich Nhat Hanh and 00:35:41.380 --> 00:35:46.039 Plum Village tradition of Buddhism, because Zen 00:35:46.039 --> 00:35:50.880 Buddhism is even broader. And Thich Nhat Hanh, 00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:57.400 who just died in 2022, a founder of what is called 00:35:57.400 --> 00:36:01.940 Engaged Buddhism or Plum Village Buddhism. He 00:36:01.940 --> 00:36:06.619 was a peacemaker. He was from Vietnam. He was 00:36:06.619 --> 00:36:10.280 exiled from Vietnam because of his opposition 00:36:10.280 --> 00:36:14.659 to the war in the 60s, at a time when he founded 00:36:14.659 --> 00:36:18.980 the Order of Interbeing. He was criticized for 00:36:18.980 --> 00:36:27.699 taking a radical stance of neutrality. this neutrality 00:36:27.699 --> 00:36:30.760 which many Franciscans forget that the secular 00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:33.000 Franciscans were originally founded on complete 00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:35.500 neutrality, that they were not to take sides 00:36:35.500 --> 00:36:39.500 in any conflict. So the deeply Franciscan element 00:36:39.500 --> 00:36:43.099 too, they quickly moved away from that, but there 00:36:43.099 --> 00:36:46.760 is that element in their history. But Thich Nhat 00:36:46.760 --> 00:36:52.219 Hanh as a peacemaker came to the... what we call 00:36:52.219 --> 00:36:55.199 the West. He founded Plum Village in France. 00:36:55.460 --> 00:36:59.519 He spent time in the United States. He knew important 00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:02.820 peacemakers like Martin Luther King Jr., Thomas 00:37:02.820 --> 00:37:06.559 Merton. He had a great admiration for Francis 00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:10.219 of Assisi. And in fact, when I attend programs 00:37:10.219 --> 00:37:13.960 at Deer Park in San Diego County, which is a 00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:17.659 monastery in the Plum Village tradition, I think 00:37:17.659 --> 00:37:20.639 just about every time I attend a retreat, Francis 00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:23.199 of Assisi has mentioned at least once, there 00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:29.980 is this great resonance between the two schools 00:37:29.980 --> 00:37:35.440 of spirituality, I think. For me, why I gravitate 00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:44.480 to Plum Village Buddhism is that I'm able to 00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:48.760 cultivate a sense of inner stillness along with 00:37:50.640 --> 00:37:57.119 curiosity and it keeps me from my judgy self 00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:00.400 i'm the first to admit how judgmental i am and 00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:03.579 how i was reared to be judgmental and you know 00:38:03.579 --> 00:38:06.500 getting a phd in history you're reared to be 00:38:06.500 --> 00:38:10.090 judgmental and criticize sources and criticize 00:38:10.090 --> 00:38:14.050 people but it is among practitioners of the plum 00:38:14.050 --> 00:38:17.489 village tradition that i have first seen and 00:38:17.489 --> 00:38:21.210 now experience myself a sense of inner stillness 00:38:21.210 --> 00:38:30.030 so for me the the two are complementary um i 00:38:30.030 --> 00:38:33.110 couldn't be a franciscan i think without engaged 00:38:33.110 --> 00:38:37.929 buddhism and i'm not Just a Buddhist, I'm also 00:38:37.929 --> 00:38:41.289 a Franciscan Christian. The two come together 00:38:41.289 --> 00:38:45.070 deeply for me. It's all about quality of presence, 00:38:45.130 --> 00:38:50.530 I think. And that means even presence with myself, 00:38:50.630 --> 00:38:55.250 to notice my own tendencies or my own reactions. 00:38:55.730 --> 00:39:01.110 I just notice more without getting caught up 00:39:01.110 --> 00:39:03.429 in navel -gazing. I guess that's the phrase we 00:39:03.429 --> 00:39:07.860 often use. Absolutely. Yeah. One of my favorite 00:39:07.860 --> 00:39:11.159 books by Thomas Merton is Zen and the Birds of 00:39:11.159 --> 00:39:15.300 Appetite, where he's exploring intersection is 00:39:15.300 --> 00:39:19.039 not the right word because he's very, I'm no 00:39:19.039 --> 00:39:21.440 expert on Zen Buddhism, but he does a good job 00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:24.519 at the beginning of saying that like Christian 00:39:24.519 --> 00:39:28.340 mysticism is kind of wrapped up in a lot of theology. 00:39:29.039 --> 00:39:32.960 And in the West, we tend to attach ourselves 00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:37.159 to theological ideas, thoughts, principles, all 00:39:37.159 --> 00:39:40.179 these different things. Whereas Zen, the way 00:39:40.179 --> 00:39:44.059 he explains it in his dialogue with D .T. Suzuki, 00:39:44.380 --> 00:39:48.320 is this is a philosophy. It's like the great 00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:53.500 Zen phrase, don't think, see. Don't think, look. 00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:56.659 And I think you're getting into something really 00:39:56.659 --> 00:40:02.780 important. It's a posture, correct? It's a presence 00:40:02.780 --> 00:40:07.239 and an awareness to, and I think there's overlap 00:40:07.239 --> 00:40:10.320 with Christian contemplation here too, but you're 00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:13.900 trying to see, I don't even like the word trying. 00:40:13.980 --> 00:40:16.760 That sounds like striving, but you're daring 00:40:16.760 --> 00:40:23.739 to see reality as it is and step into that reality 00:40:23.739 --> 00:40:28.380 with all of its messiness and to just observe 00:40:28.380 --> 00:40:31.489 it. And like you said, be curious about it. Am 00:40:31.489 --> 00:40:33.050 I on the right track there, or what would you 00:40:33.050 --> 00:40:38.889 add? I would add just observe it is what you 00:40:38.889 --> 00:40:44.809 said, and I would say be in it. Be in it. I think 00:40:44.809 --> 00:40:47.550 it's really interesting, another comparison with 00:40:47.550 --> 00:40:50.949 Francis and Thich Nhat Hanh is that both of them 00:40:50.949 --> 00:40:54.389 have been subject to criticism, even disparagement, 00:40:54.429 --> 00:40:58.849 as being superficial, as not being deep enough 00:40:58.849 --> 00:41:01.449 or philosophical enough. Thich Nhat Hanh was 00:41:01.449 --> 00:41:06.409 a significant scholar who worked in many languages 00:41:06.409 --> 00:41:10.329 and wrote important treatises. And he had the 00:41:10.329 --> 00:41:14.750 aspiration to bring this depth of being to a 00:41:14.750 --> 00:41:18.429 popular audience. And so he was able to write 00:41:18.429 --> 00:41:21.250 for a general audience, which is no mean feat. 00:41:21.429 --> 00:41:26.409 You know, it's very challenging. And so I know 00:41:26.409 --> 00:41:30.590 that many people also disparage or criticize 00:41:30.590 --> 00:41:34.059 Franciscan spirituality as being really just 00:41:34.059 --> 00:41:37.019 the spirituality of bird baths. We've heard that 00:41:37.019 --> 00:41:39.920 before. There's a depth to Franciscan spirituality 00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:43.559 and to engaged Buddhism because it's about living 00:41:43.559 --> 00:41:47.179 into these principles. It's not just about thinking 00:41:47.179 --> 00:41:50.000 about them and talking about them. It's about 00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:53.519 living into them. And that's where the depth 00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:58.179 is and the challenge is. Yeah, how do you live 00:41:58.179 --> 00:42:02.989 into them? For engaged Buddhism, for Thich Nhat 00:42:02.989 --> 00:42:05.829 Hanh's tradition, he has the five mindfulness 00:42:05.829 --> 00:42:09.050 trainings and then the 14 mindfulness trainings. 00:42:09.789 --> 00:42:14.429 And these are trainings that do not contradict 00:42:14.429 --> 00:42:17.969 Christian practice at all, Christian faith at 00:42:17.969 --> 00:42:21.829 all. But these are guidelines, one might say, 00:42:21.869 --> 00:42:26.900 invitations. They aren't rules. You do this or 00:42:26.900 --> 00:42:29.420 you don't do this. These are guidelines in terms 00:42:29.420 --> 00:42:35.480 of how to live in a life of presence. And so 00:42:35.480 --> 00:42:40.260 it includes being mindful of what we consume, 00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:44.840 both in terms of what we read, what we look at 00:42:44.840 --> 00:42:49.380 on TV or the Internet, what we consume and digest 00:42:49.380 --> 00:42:55.829 in our bodies, how much we eat. and what we eat 00:42:55.829 --> 00:42:59.530 that's just one example of one of the mindfulness 00:42:59.530 --> 00:43:07.570 trainings and um another example is right speech 00:43:07.570 --> 00:43:13.809 you know at what point when are we open to articulating 00:43:13.809 --> 00:43:18.010 our views and thoughts and when should we refrain 00:43:18.010 --> 00:43:21.750 so that we can be really deeply present in responding 00:43:21.750 --> 00:43:26.119 rather than reacting So those are just a couple 00:43:26.119 --> 00:43:30.500 examples, but they're helpful guidelines for 00:43:30.500 --> 00:43:35.139 me to be living into a way that I aspire to live. 00:43:36.280 --> 00:43:39.380 Yeah, you mentioned the word interbeing earlier. 00:43:40.380 --> 00:43:46.960 What did that mean to Thich Nhat Hanh? The order 00:43:46.960 --> 00:43:52.340 of interbeing, and interbeing is a word that 00:43:52.340 --> 00:43:59.070 is used often in engage Buddhism. And it's slightly 00:43:59.070 --> 00:44:02.409 different than a Christian notion, because he 00:44:02.409 --> 00:44:06.550 would say that there is no individual self, that 00:44:06.550 --> 00:44:10.170 we all inter -are. Now, that is not going to 00:44:10.170 --> 00:44:13.489 be something Christians will accept, and I'm 00:44:13.489 --> 00:44:18.010 not asking anyone to accept that, but I am merely 00:44:18.010 --> 00:44:21.670 saying that it really opens up our heart to this 00:44:21.670 --> 00:44:29.909 notion of interdependence, that I have as much 00:44:29.909 --> 00:44:32.869 to learn from my students as my students have 00:44:32.869 --> 00:44:36.670 to learn from me. That is a pedagogical strategy 00:44:36.670 --> 00:44:40.409 and philosophy that I have as a professor, and 00:44:40.409 --> 00:44:44.880 that's an example of interbeing. I'm not going 00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:48.579 to take a top -down approach to teaching. I want 00:44:48.579 --> 00:44:51.039 to learn from my students as they learn from 00:44:51.039 --> 00:44:54.059 me, and that we all are in this world together, 00:44:54.159 --> 00:45:01.960 to be together. It necessarily breaks down assumptions 00:45:01.960 --> 00:45:05.880 and expectations of a hierarchical view of the 00:45:05.880 --> 00:45:08.900 world and a hierarchical organization of the 00:45:08.900 --> 00:45:15.090 world, and I'm comfortable with that. Yeah, is 00:45:15.090 --> 00:45:19.309 there some overlap there with, or maybe is it 00:45:19.309 --> 00:45:23.230 complementary to the Franciscan notion of relationality? 00:45:23.909 --> 00:45:27.190 I think it's complementary to relationality, 00:45:27.190 --> 00:45:30.289 and I think Franciscan spirituality has been 00:45:30.289 --> 00:45:33.210 developed within a Western construction of hierarchy 00:45:33.210 --> 00:45:39.030 that I would be more comfortable with dismantling, 00:45:39.030 --> 00:45:43.309 or at least unraveling that hierarchy. But that's 00:45:43.309 --> 00:45:50.130 just me. I think implicit in Franciscan spirituality 00:45:50.130 --> 00:45:56.550 is relationality that is grounded in curiosity 00:45:56.550 --> 00:46:01.710 to ask and to find out another person's intentions 00:46:01.710 --> 00:46:08.550 or meaning rather than to assume. And I think 00:46:08.550 --> 00:46:13.079 it's based on respect to keep. communication 00:46:13.079 --> 00:46:18.719 open rather than to shut down based on office 00:46:18.719 --> 00:46:24.139 or hierarchy. I think you can make a good argument 00:46:24.139 --> 00:46:27.579 theologically. And again, I'm not trying to be 00:46:27.579 --> 00:46:32.239 heady here, but just see the complementary kind 00:46:32.239 --> 00:46:35.900 of forces between Franciscan spirituality and 00:46:35.900 --> 00:46:40.960 Plum Village Zen Buddhism. Is that what it's 00:46:40.960 --> 00:46:44.889 called? Yeah, Plum Village tradition, engaged 00:46:44.889 --> 00:46:46.949 Buddhism. Plum Village tradition, yeah, engaged 00:46:46.949 --> 00:46:51.489 Buddhism. But when it comes to the Trinity in 00:46:51.489 --> 00:46:55.630 Christian theology, it's deeply relational, and 00:46:55.630 --> 00:47:01.570 it's not hierarchical. And if at the very core 00:47:01.570 --> 00:47:07.030 of all things is this relational dance, then, 00:47:07.170 --> 00:47:13.429 well... Here's interbeing, interdependence, interconnectedness. 00:47:13.969 --> 00:47:20.449 We all inter -are, as Thich Nhat Hanh says. I 00:47:20.449 --> 00:47:26.269 want to get this back to lived experience, because 00:47:26.269 --> 00:47:28.969 I think that's so important when talking about 00:47:28.969 --> 00:47:34.909 the Buddhist tradition. But this can help lead 00:47:34.909 --> 00:47:40.519 to a kind of integration, correct? Because of 00:47:40.519 --> 00:47:46.460 that notion of embodiment, because you're seeing 00:47:46.460 --> 00:47:50.780 reality as it is, you're stepping into the messiness 00:47:50.780 --> 00:47:54.380 of a situation or the pure beauty of a situation. 00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:58.900 It doesn't always have to be complex, but you 00:47:58.900 --> 00:48:02.650 dare to stand within it and to take it in. And 00:48:02.650 --> 00:48:06.650 to not attach your thoughts to it, but to just 00:48:06.650 --> 00:48:11.190 take it in as it is. And this leads to, well, 00:48:11.329 --> 00:48:14.610 where does this lead? I guess I just would like 00:48:14.610 --> 00:48:17.489 to continue where you're going with that in that 00:48:17.489 --> 00:48:20.570 where it took me, where your words took me was. 00:48:22.539 --> 00:48:25.539 I think when we bring our whole self to a situation, 00:48:25.699 --> 00:48:29.059 and that is using Frank Ostaseski's, one of Frank 00:48:29.059 --> 00:48:32.300 Ostaseski's principles for Zen Hospice, when 00:48:32.300 --> 00:48:34.739 we bring our whole self, not just our mind, not 00:48:34.739 --> 00:48:37.099 just our thoughts, but our whole self, and that 00:48:37.099 --> 00:48:42.420 involves noticing our visceral responses, that 00:48:42.420 --> 00:48:48.659 is where the integration comes in, I think. All 00:48:48.659 --> 00:48:52.159 I know for sure is my own experiences, but I 00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:56.639 know growing up my brain was trained a lot, and 00:48:56.639 --> 00:49:00.480 I was trained not to feel as much, and yet I 00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:04.840 think naturally I feel a lot. And so this integration 00:49:04.840 --> 00:49:09.980 has come in time across experience and really 00:49:09.980 --> 00:49:12.300 letting go of some of the teachings and expectations 00:49:12.300 --> 00:49:19.130 that people around me have. Really what is most 00:49:19.130 --> 00:49:22.530 heartbreaking to me is when I am encountering 00:49:22.530 --> 00:49:26.889 someone at the end of life who says, I don't 00:49:26.889 --> 00:49:29.610 know what to think, tell me what to think. I 00:49:29.610 --> 00:49:31.829 don't know how to do this, tell me what to do. 00:49:32.510 --> 00:49:37.809 And I hope that in our life of faith that we 00:49:37.809 --> 00:49:40.789 can bring our full selves so that we can ask 00:49:40.789 --> 00:49:44.329 the questions along the way, that we can express 00:49:44.329 --> 00:49:48.840 our doubts and our faith. and have open conversation 00:49:48.840 --> 00:49:54.099 so that we can explore the authenticity of our 00:49:54.099 --> 00:49:58.119 faith. So that when our last breath comes or 00:49:58.119 --> 00:50:02.079 in the days preceding it, we're not in that space 00:50:02.079 --> 00:50:07.659 of uncertainty and relying on someone else to 00:50:07.659 --> 00:50:16.039 tell us what to think or be or do. And this doesn't 00:50:16.039 --> 00:50:20.599 lead to an arrogance, it just leads to a profound 00:50:20.599 --> 00:50:25.780 way of being in the world. A confidence without 00:50:25.780 --> 00:50:30.340 arrogance. Authenticity that even allows for 00:50:30.340 --> 00:50:33.260 changing of one's mind and changing of one's 00:50:33.260 --> 00:50:42.260 habits, right? Yeah, and for me, Zen and... the 00:50:42.260 --> 00:50:45.820 contemplation kind of advocated by the mystics, 00:50:45.860 --> 00:50:49.280 by the Christian mystics, it's uncomfortable 00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:55.519 to me, perhaps as someone educated, conditioned 00:50:55.519 --> 00:51:03.019 by the West, is I like to wrap something up in 00:51:03.019 --> 00:51:08.000 my thoughts. I like to extract meaning from something. 00:51:08.199 --> 00:51:12.059 I like to... Sometimes it's not even that I like 00:51:12.059 --> 00:51:15.300 to do it. It's just I naturally do it. Well, 00:51:15.460 --> 00:51:18.239 this happened. Well, why did it happen? It must 00:51:18.239 --> 00:51:20.559 have, you know, point A must take me to point 00:51:20.559 --> 00:51:25.480 B. B must take me to C. And this is so challenging 00:51:25.480 --> 00:51:31.119 to me because it's like the ultimate practice 00:51:31.119 --> 00:51:37.500 of non -dualism where it just is. And in that. 00:51:40.079 --> 00:51:44.320 And in that I can let go of just like Francis 00:51:44.320 --> 00:51:48.380 back to Francis again, I can let go of my judgments. 00:51:48.780 --> 00:51:52.940 I can let go of my meaning making and I can just 00:51:52.940 --> 00:51:58.159 be in it. Um, curiously nonjudgmentally. Um, 00:51:58.400 --> 00:52:06.099 and it is, and I'm there in it. Is that so hard 00:52:06.099 --> 00:52:09.769 to find words for some of this stuff? Yeah, I 00:52:09.769 --> 00:52:15.650 know. What you just shared really helps me understand 00:52:15.650 --> 00:52:19.670 my own practice. Again, going back to hospice 00:52:19.670 --> 00:52:23.889 caregiving, I developed a practice of writing 00:52:23.889 --> 00:52:29.909 after each shift that I had. And I would write, 00:52:29.929 --> 00:52:32.389 it would really come down to about a paragraph. 00:52:33.739 --> 00:52:35.739 these paragraphs that i would write would usually 00:52:35.739 --> 00:52:38.800 take me an hour to get to because it wasn't just 00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:42.780 a linear delineation of what happened but really 00:52:42.780 --> 00:52:48.099 it was a distillation of what i encountered and 00:52:48.099 --> 00:52:54.400 um and when i look back on the that series of 00:52:54.400 --> 00:52:58.719 i have probably 200 of these paragraphs when 00:52:58.719 --> 00:53:02.599 i look back on them i think i always land at 00:53:03.530 --> 00:53:08.590 Just what happened. Just what is. Not with any 00:53:08.590 --> 00:53:13.449 meaning or any understanding of someone else's 00:53:13.449 --> 00:53:16.170 experience, because I can't write about someone 00:53:16.170 --> 00:53:20.210 else's experience, but what I experienced encountering 00:53:20.210 --> 00:53:25.789 the person I was serving. And those writings 00:53:25.789 --> 00:53:29.010 that I shared were probably the most popular 00:53:29.010 --> 00:53:32.960 writings I've ever done. They weren't. high philosophy 00:53:32.960 --> 00:53:36.380 they weren't complete they weren't super intellectual 00:53:36.380 --> 00:53:40.920 it was just what is i think we have gotten so 00:53:40.920 --> 00:53:44.940 far away from observing and being in our present 00:53:44.940 --> 00:53:49.539 moment that it was those writings were a bomb 00:53:49.539 --> 00:53:52.280 to people who read them there was just nothing 00:53:52.280 --> 00:53:54.260 special and that's what made them so special 00:53:54.260 --> 00:54:01.909 yeah i in our own In our own culture and society, 00:54:02.369 --> 00:54:10.449 we all see the stats about religion on the decline. 00:54:11.610 --> 00:54:15.650 However, it seems that people are more spiritually 00:54:15.650 --> 00:54:18.909 hungry than ever. And in a lot of this kind of 00:54:18.909 --> 00:54:21.289 quote -unquote spiritual talk, there's a big 00:54:21.289 --> 00:54:24.909 emphasis on presence. Like, be in the moment. 00:54:24.989 --> 00:54:30.920 Be in the now. Like, be a present person. I'm 00:54:30.920 --> 00:54:35.460 not saying that doesn't have value, but the presence 00:54:35.460 --> 00:54:39.760 that you're talking about that goes back to raw 00:54:39.760 --> 00:54:44.699 encounter and taking everything in and standing 00:54:44.699 --> 00:54:47.659 there in the midst of it, even things that are 00:54:47.659 --> 00:54:51.920 deeply disorienting or confusing and not judging 00:54:51.920 --> 00:54:54.400 them, that's a different kind of presence than 00:54:54.400 --> 00:54:57.829 what we normally hear. Correct? Or what would 00:54:57.829 --> 00:55:00.409 you add there? It's a deeper presence. You know, 00:55:00.449 --> 00:55:04.869 whenever anything is reduced to a slogan, there's 00:55:04.869 --> 00:55:08.590 going to be a superficial aspect to it. And people 00:55:08.590 --> 00:55:12.030 will talk about it in a catchphrase, and it remains 00:55:12.030 --> 00:55:16.369 up here. So cultivating a way of being present, 00:55:16.449 --> 00:55:19.829 and again, returning to the words of Frank Ostaseski, 00:55:19.989 --> 00:55:24.090 bring your whole self to the situation. that 00:55:24.090 --> 00:55:27.809 does mean this self -awareness and noticing what's 00:55:27.809 --> 00:55:33.349 coming up in every situation and really slowing 00:55:33.349 --> 00:55:38.889 down. So one of the practices from the pandemic 00:55:38.889 --> 00:55:43.869 that I took up, I went deep into contemplative 00:55:43.869 --> 00:55:47.329 practice. For the first time, I was able to attend 00:55:47.329 --> 00:55:50.909 a retreat at the Kamaldali's Order in Big Sur 00:55:50.909 --> 00:55:56.510 because they started going online. and I deliberately 00:55:56.510 --> 00:56:01.349 slowed down my speech. And I've noticed I've 00:56:01.349 --> 00:56:04.210 continued that habit, and it's countercultural. 00:56:04.610 --> 00:56:11.329 So this might offend some listeners here, but 00:56:11.329 --> 00:56:14.250 I've just noticed a difference. I've noticed, 00:56:14.309 --> 00:56:17.389 I'm judging this difference too, I've noticed 00:56:17.389 --> 00:56:22.010 that in many Buddhist circles, they're very comfortable 00:56:22.010 --> 00:56:26.190 with a slower pace of speech. There's no tendency 00:56:26.190 --> 00:56:32.809 to interrupt. You can pause, even at length, 00:56:32.969 --> 00:56:37.090 and they'll do like you're doing, maybe not even 00:56:37.090 --> 00:56:41.389 nodding, just sit and wait for the completion 00:56:41.389 --> 00:56:46.369 of a thought. And in other circles in which I 00:56:46.369 --> 00:56:53.769 live and work, there is a tendency to jump in, 00:56:53.909 --> 00:56:58.329 to add something. Even my own sentences have 00:56:58.329 --> 00:57:01.349 been completed by many people over and over again. 00:57:02.050 --> 00:57:08.590 And so there is a spaciousness to this spirituality 00:57:08.590 --> 00:57:12.250 that I do see a difference in different religious 00:57:12.250 --> 00:57:17.750 cultures. And being deeply present, I think. 00:57:18.349 --> 00:57:21.349 necessarily slows down one's speech and allows 00:57:21.349 --> 00:57:25.230 for space for the completion of sentences and 00:57:25.230 --> 00:57:31.789 thoughts and even allows for the silence to allow 00:57:31.789 --> 00:57:36.929 a sentence to land with no need, no need to add 00:57:36.929 --> 00:57:41.710 anything. Yeah, spaciousness is a great word. 00:57:43.610 --> 00:57:47.989 Yeah, I really like that. Going back to the canicle, 00:57:48.130 --> 00:57:51.949 because there's a reason why you conclude your 00:57:51.949 --> 00:57:57.969 cover story with Thich Nhat Hanh, with Plum Village. 00:57:58.030 --> 00:58:02.369 Why did you end your article that way? What does 00:58:02.369 --> 00:58:05.969 all of this have to do with Francis's canicle 00:58:05.969 --> 00:58:09.920 of the creatures? Well, I actually have just 00:58:09.920 --> 00:58:12.300 a very simple response to that. I was originally 00:58:12.300 --> 00:58:15.219 asked to write an interfaith approach to the 00:58:15.219 --> 00:58:19.440 canticle of the creatures. And so I had intended 00:58:19.440 --> 00:58:22.500 to bring in Franciscan spirituality and Buddhist, 00:58:22.719 --> 00:58:26.199 Plum Village Buddhism spirituality more centrally. 00:58:26.219 --> 00:58:30.059 And then the fires started. And I couldn't get 00:58:30.059 --> 00:58:34.980 there. I was stymied in writing that. That was 00:58:34.980 --> 00:58:40.429 the article I outlined in December. And so it 00:58:40.429 --> 00:58:44.190 was really the invitation to write an interfaith 00:58:44.190 --> 00:58:52.809 exploration of Franciscan spirituality that made 00:58:52.809 --> 00:58:56.889 me include Thich Nhat Hanh here. But that being 00:58:56.889 --> 00:59:00.190 said, I do practice within the Plum Village tradition. 00:59:00.429 --> 00:59:04.190 I am a member of Plum Village Sangha in San Diego 00:59:04.190 --> 00:59:07.179 County. Even though I no longer live in San Diego 00:59:07.179 --> 00:59:10.519 County, I still help facilitate that sangha. 00:59:11.699 --> 00:59:15.480 I am a member of the Order of Inner Being, and 00:59:15.480 --> 00:59:21.059 so this is just deeply important to me as a way 00:59:21.059 --> 00:59:25.780 of life. I think I shared earlier, I feel I can 00:59:25.780 --> 00:59:29.400 be more deeply Franciscan because of the Palm 00:59:29.400 --> 00:59:35.000 Village practices. Every Monday night, It is 00:59:35.000 --> 00:59:38.320 Sangha, and with those people, I've shared often 00:59:38.320 --> 00:59:40.420 with them, it's such a privilege to be able to 00:59:40.420 --> 00:59:44.880 be silent with them. We meet on Zoom, and there 00:59:44.880 --> 00:59:47.760 might be five minutes, 20 minutes of complete 00:59:47.760 --> 00:59:52.139 silence. And it's not everybody that you can 00:59:52.139 --> 00:59:57.079 do that with. But it's not inconsequential. It's 00:59:57.079 --> 01:00:02.119 deep and meaningful and helpful. When I reread 01:00:02.119 --> 01:00:05.980 your article, I'd be curious what you think about 01:00:05.980 --> 01:00:09.820 this. But to me, it brought it together so nicely 01:00:09.820 --> 01:00:17.380 because in a way, that's what Francis was practicing 01:00:17.380 --> 01:00:21.440 during this very vulnerable time in his life. 01:00:21.619 --> 01:00:24.760 He had to have been incredibly miserable. He 01:00:24.760 --> 01:00:30.239 had to have been incredibly uncomfortable. tortured 01:00:30.239 --> 01:00:32.800 in a sense too, with these mice running around 01:00:32.800 --> 01:00:34.900 them in the middle of the night, unable to sleep. 01:00:35.019 --> 01:00:41.639 And I mean, and yet it's like everything from 01:00:41.639 --> 01:00:45.940 his spirituality, his continual practice throughout 01:00:45.940 --> 01:00:50.780 his life of letting go, it like comes through 01:00:50.780 --> 01:00:56.099 mystically, magically in this moment where the 01:00:56.099 --> 01:01:02.070 canticle is birthed. It was A lifelong practice 01:01:02.070 --> 01:01:07.570 of letting go that allowed him to still connect 01:01:07.570 --> 01:01:10.630 to a beauty and goodness that he had always known. 01:01:11.429 --> 01:01:15.110 What are your thoughts there? I agree with that 01:01:15.110 --> 01:01:22.650 summation that it is a lifelong practice. And 01:01:22.650 --> 01:01:25.389 if we don't practice this over the course of 01:01:25.389 --> 01:01:28.389 our life with all the ups and downs, the ebb 01:01:28.389 --> 01:01:31.309 and flow and when it's easy and when it's not, 01:01:31.409 --> 01:01:35.909 if we don't practice with all of that, then it's 01:01:35.909 --> 01:01:40.809 easily to come to a place where we just rather 01:01:40.809 --> 01:01:46.670 superficially bypass our own suffering, our physical 01:01:46.670 --> 01:01:50.070 suffering or emotional suffering. We disregard 01:01:50.070 --> 01:01:54.110 it. We don't even recognize it. And I have encountered 01:01:54.110 --> 01:02:01.429 people who don't recognize their pain, physical 01:02:01.429 --> 01:02:05.150 and emotional pain, because they've never had 01:02:05.150 --> 01:02:08.170 the opportunities to explore it and to experience 01:02:08.170 --> 01:02:12.869 it deeply. So I think where I'm coming from in 01:02:12.869 --> 01:02:19.129 my life now, having worked with Francis's and 01:02:19.129 --> 01:02:22.789 the canticle and then writings about his life, 01:02:22.929 --> 01:02:30.449 is that it's a beautiful, complicated mess. And 01:02:30.449 --> 01:02:35.750 it's all okay. And it's all beautiful. And it's 01:02:35.750 --> 01:02:40.570 not superficial. And he didn't glibly welcome 01:02:40.570 --> 01:02:44.010 sister death. He didn't add that stanza until 01:02:44.010 --> 01:02:49.139 he was close to death. So this isn't just something 01:02:49.139 --> 01:02:51.039 that he wrote out. This is something that he 01:02:51.039 --> 01:02:56.780 lived into. And I pray for myself that I live 01:02:56.780 --> 01:03:01.800 into this depth of presence and experience. And 01:03:01.800 --> 01:03:08.739 earlier you were inviting me to teach the listeners 01:03:08.739 --> 01:03:11.099 here something, and I guess I would just invite 01:03:11.099 --> 01:03:15.780 everyone to live into the depth of their experiences. 01:03:17.099 --> 01:03:21.739 as much as possible and to glean the fruits of 01:03:21.739 --> 01:03:26.539 whatever's there. The thing that is just so moving 01:03:26.539 --> 01:03:28.699 to me about the canicle and everything that you 01:03:28.699 --> 01:03:30.139 write about in your cover story and then what 01:03:30.139 --> 01:03:33.239 we've talked about here is that at this time 01:03:33.239 --> 01:03:35.820 where Francis could have felt very discouraged 01:03:35.820 --> 01:03:38.340 and isolated, everything was still relational 01:03:38.340 --> 01:03:43.500 to him. There's something so crazy to me about 01:03:43.500 --> 01:03:49.780 that. I think it's so beautiful. I can remember 01:03:49.780 --> 01:03:54.860 a woman that I served in hospice who, whenever 01:03:54.860 --> 01:03:58.519 I would show up, she asked me to wheel her outside, 01:03:58.599 --> 01:04:02.500 and we would just sit in a garden. We didn't 01:04:02.500 --> 01:04:07.820 talk. We just sat, and we felt the wind on our 01:04:07.820 --> 01:04:14.960 cheeks and listened to the birds. smelled the 01:04:14.960 --> 01:04:23.400 pine trees. There is a settling in to being present 01:04:23.400 --> 01:04:29.179 that I think is a skill actually. It is something 01:04:29.179 --> 01:04:32.800 that needs to be practiced in order to experience 01:04:32.800 --> 01:04:46.050 it fully. I think we don't honor stillness enough 01:04:46.050 --> 01:04:49.849 in our culture. Talk about an invitation. I mean, 01:04:49.849 --> 01:04:54.469 that's it. I mean, the canticle in a lot of ways, 01:04:54.530 --> 01:04:59.750 it goes back to Francis's own spiritual posture 01:04:59.750 --> 01:05:03.110 of stillness, I think. Yeah, if I could just 01:05:03.110 --> 01:05:05.329 add to that, I mean, that's a part of Francis's 01:05:05.329 --> 01:05:08.010 life that we often don't talk about enough, about 01:05:08.010 --> 01:05:13.590 his experiences. in hermitages is his experiences 01:05:13.590 --> 01:05:17.690 of solitude because we we don't know right he 01:05:17.690 --> 01:05:20.550 didn't write out what he was doing and we just 01:05:20.550 --> 01:05:23.630 know that he sequestered himself he would be 01:05:23.630 --> 01:05:27.130 apart from him from the other friars he might 01:05:27.130 --> 01:05:29.190 eat with them or he might eat apart from them 01:05:29.190 --> 01:05:34.579 but what happens in solitude We have to speculate, 01:05:34.699 --> 01:05:37.920 but that is where the depth of this kind of presence 01:05:37.920 --> 01:05:41.320 can get cultivated. Not necessarily, but I think 01:05:41.320 --> 01:05:46.460 it did with Francis. And I think in our Franciscan 01:05:46.460 --> 01:05:50.639 world, among all of us practitioners, we tend 01:05:50.639 --> 01:05:54.920 to emphasize the doing, doing, doing, rather 01:05:54.920 --> 01:05:58.500 than the stillness and the contemplative side 01:05:58.500 --> 01:06:02.349 of this practice. I think it would be wise to 01:06:02.349 --> 01:06:06.130 remember that Franciscan practice or doing is 01:06:06.130 --> 01:06:10.090 based in stillness. It's based in contemplative 01:06:10.090 --> 01:06:15.630 prayer. He lived in contemplation longer each 01:06:15.630 --> 01:06:20.750 year than in actual active ministry. So when 01:06:20.750 --> 01:06:24.090 he went to Rome and was serving with Lady Jacoba 01:06:24.090 --> 01:06:28.670 in the hospice in Trastevere, it was after weeks 01:06:28.670 --> 01:06:34.699 and months of contemplation yeah and in stillness 01:06:34.699 --> 01:06:39.199 and contemplation is such a challenge in our 01:06:39.199 --> 01:06:42.119 culture you know at least for me because it it's 01:06:42.119 --> 01:06:48.199 in it's in that stillness that for me i'm kind 01:06:48.199 --> 01:06:55.960 of giving myself permission to not cling to to 01:06:57.389 --> 01:07:00.570 Not jump to the next thing. This is what it is. 01:07:00.670 --> 01:07:04.849 To not root my own identity in my own doing. 01:07:06.250 --> 01:07:10.329 And instead just to be. And for that to be enough. 01:07:12.099 --> 01:07:14.900 Yeah, I have two things to say to that. First 01:07:14.900 --> 01:07:19.400 of all, I see this, we see this, people heading 01:07:19.400 --> 01:07:23.860 into retirement age, how hard it is to let go 01:07:23.860 --> 01:07:26.599 of work. And we see this among lay people, we 01:07:26.599 --> 01:07:30.000 see this among vowed religious, when self -identity 01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:33.159 is based on what they've been doing. When the 01:07:33.159 --> 01:07:36.219 invitation is there to retire from the doing, 01:07:36.360 --> 01:07:39.480 many people are at a loss of their self -identity. 01:07:40.369 --> 01:07:44.070 So there's so much there to reflect on and to 01:07:44.070 --> 01:07:47.590 work with. But self -awareness of the struggle 01:07:47.590 --> 01:07:52.050 is the first step. The other thing that what 01:07:52.050 --> 01:07:54.889 you just said brought to my mind is, I'm just 01:07:54.889 --> 01:07:57.550 going to tell you a short story from my youth. 01:07:57.670 --> 01:08:03.070 As a very young girl, like four years old, I 01:08:03.070 --> 01:08:07.659 would go into a closet and sit. I'd close the 01:08:07.659 --> 01:08:10.639 door and there'd be a little crack. And I still 01:08:10.639 --> 01:08:12.559 remember what it looked like. I could see little 01:08:12.559 --> 01:08:14.579 particles of dust with the light coming through. 01:08:15.300 --> 01:08:20.680 And I just found so much peace there. No one 01:08:20.680 --> 01:08:24.039 else in my family did that. And my parents were 01:08:24.039 --> 01:08:28.000 very concerned, very worried about me because 01:08:28.000 --> 01:08:31.420 I would go through the closet. And apparently, 01:08:31.699 --> 01:08:34.420 I guess one time I fell asleep, and so my mom 01:08:34.420 --> 01:08:37.100 was frantic and started calling all the neighbors 01:08:37.100 --> 01:08:41.180 because she thought I was lost. But my point 01:08:41.180 --> 01:08:45.779 of saying all of this is that this can be instinctual 01:08:45.779 --> 01:08:48.760 for some people, but it's countercultural. And 01:08:48.760 --> 01:08:52.359 people are concerned about people who like to 01:08:52.359 --> 01:08:57.920 be alone. And it gets trained out of us. Well, 01:08:57.960 --> 01:09:00.739 before you conclude here by reading the last 01:09:00.739 --> 01:09:04.319 couple paragraphs of your cover story, do you 01:09:04.319 --> 01:09:07.260 have anything else to add? Anything I left out 01:09:07.260 --> 01:09:10.159 or anything you would like to hit on before we 01:09:10.159 --> 01:09:13.699 kind of close shop here? You know, we've covered 01:09:13.699 --> 01:09:19.539 quite a bit. I think we covered far more than 01:09:19.539 --> 01:09:23.239 I expected us to cover. So I think it's good. 01:09:24.000 --> 01:09:26.739 Did you want me to read the last two paragraphs? 01:09:26.960 --> 01:09:29.800 Is that it? Yeah, I think that would be a great 01:09:29.800 --> 01:09:32.819 place for us to conclude, Darlene. If you could 01:09:32.819 --> 01:09:36.039 read the last two paragraphs of your April 2025 01:09:36.039 --> 01:09:39.579 cover story. And that cover story, again, is 01:09:39.579 --> 01:09:42.000 titled Living the Canticle of the Creatures. 01:09:42.739 --> 01:09:45.520 Francis's experience with loss illustrates a 01:09:45.520 --> 01:09:48.739 path to deeper relationships, including with 01:09:48.739 --> 01:09:52.909 God. More than just thinking about the sibling 01:09:52.909 --> 01:09:55.770 connections Francis sang about in his canticle, 01:09:55.989 --> 01:09:58.930 I'm now sensing these connections with the world 01:09:58.930 --> 01:10:02.729 around me on a deep, visceral level. This is 01:10:02.729 --> 01:10:05.729 what Francis was getting at, cultivating a rapport 01:10:05.729 --> 01:10:09.130 with this world that is not abstract or merely 01:10:09.130 --> 01:10:13.409 transactional, but instead experiencing the world 01:10:13.409 --> 01:10:17.789 viscerally, without judgment or denial, without 01:10:17.789 --> 01:10:21.899 resistance or avoidance. As a brother and a sister, 01:10:22.079 --> 01:10:25.600 with all the familiarity and tension implied 01:10:25.600 --> 01:10:30.199 in a family. It is an experience that could make 01:10:30.199 --> 01:10:32.840 us quite vulnerable, which is why much of the 01:10:32.840 --> 01:10:35.380 time most people run away from this closeness 01:10:35.380 --> 01:10:38.340 and disregard or trivialize this way of being 01:10:38.340 --> 01:10:42.319 with judgment. But when the realities of life 01:10:42.319 --> 01:10:46.430 hit, and you've lost everything. What is left 01:10:46.430 --> 01:10:49.050 is the stunning beauty of our relationships with 01:10:49.050 --> 01:10:52.289 one another, with this world, and with our God. 01:10:53.289 --> 01:10:56.649 This path of interdependence is care -filled, 01:10:56.949 --> 01:11:00.850 relational, and felt. This is how we come to 01:11:00.850 --> 01:11:03.770 understand the real wisdom of Francis and begin 01:11:03.770 --> 01:11:08.569 to live the canticle. Beautiful. Thank you for 01:11:08.569 --> 01:11:11.130 coming on Off the Page, Darlene. Thanks, Stephen. 01:11:11.649 --> 01:11:19.539 It's been a joy. Once again, that was Dr. Darlene 01:11:19.539 --> 01:11:22.760 Prides. Her cover story is available on our website, 01:11:22.979 --> 01:11:25.920 franciscanmedia .org, where you can also subscribe 01:11:25.920 --> 01:11:28.720 to the St. Anthony Messenger. I've dropped a 01:11:28.720 --> 01:11:31.939 link to her story, to the photo of Francis that 01:11:31.939 --> 01:11:34.500 we discussed in the episode, among other related 01:11:34.500 --> 01:11:37.340 links and helpful material in the show notes 01:11:37.340 --> 01:11:40.979 for this episode. If you feel inclined, please 01:11:40.979 --> 01:11:43.979 consider leaving a review of the podcast or visiting 01:11:43.979 --> 01:11:46.260 the donation link in the show notes to help us 01:11:46.260 --> 01:11:49.920 continue to create content like this. Thanks 01:11:49.920 --> 01:11:52.180 again to Darlene and thanks as well to Father 01:11:52.180 --> 01:11:55.319 Cyprian Concilio for providing the music for 01:11:55.319 --> 01:11:58.420 this episode. This is Stephen Copeland signing 01:11:58.420 --> 01:12:01.159 off. Peace and all good.