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Welcome to Off the Page, it's great to be with

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you. Today's guest is Sister Rosemary Stetz,

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a Bernadine Franciscan sister who recently authored

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the book Franciscan Field Guide, People, Places,

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Practices, and Prayers. Sister Rosemary has served

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as Vice President for Mission at Alvernia University

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in Redding, Pennsylvania. and she was a member

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of the faculty in the Department of English and

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Communications. Her book, Franciscan Field Guide,

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is the focus of this conversation. It's a really

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wonderful book, almost like a Franciscanism 101,

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with so many on -ramps to different aspects of

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the tradition. I loved hearing Sister Rosemary's

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story, discussing her book, and I found her passion

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for higher education and the love she has for

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her students to be really inspiring. Our Franciscan

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Lectio segments today, our reflection segments

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that we began implementing with the last episode,

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they are brought to you by Darlene Prides. Dr.

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Darlene Prides is Franciscan Media's acquisitions

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editor and a scholar on lay Franciscans. I feel

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like I learn something new from her every week

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working with her at Franciscan Media, and I'm

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happy that you get the chance to learn from her

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this episode as well. So without further ado.

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Here is Sister Rosemary Stetz. Sister Rosemary

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Stetz, welcome to Off the Page. Thank you, Stephen.

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Happy to be here. Yeah, thanks for joining us.

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I want to get into your wonderful book, The Franciscan

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Field Guide. It's a concise but comprehensive

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overview of the Franciscan tradition. But first,

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can you talk to me a little bit about your own

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personal journey? What was your upbringing like?

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And how did you find yourself entering religious

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life? That's a lot of territory, but I'll start.

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I was, I'm Catholic, of course, raised Catholic,

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and I attended parochial school. And as a child,

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I always loved writing. And I enjoyed, and I

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had a very good teacher, Sister, Bernadine Sister,

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in the seventh grade. I'll never forget her,

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Sister Lillian, who taught me the skill of writing.

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I don't know if it was. if it impacted the class

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as much as it did to me. But it just made so

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much sense how to bring out ideas and put them

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on paper. Then I, of course, I entered the congregation

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after high school, and I had my education through

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the sisters. And I taught elementary school for

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a few years, which was not a good fit for me.

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I love the children, but I don't know. I just

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wasn't, it wasn't my... It wasn't my level. You

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know, I kept thinking, I think understanding

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what I'm saying. So then, and also the range

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of subjects. I hated math. I didn't like science.

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I was not interested in some of those areas.

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So by the time I was about 28, I had already

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finished graduate school. And I was assigned

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to the university in Reading, which is the sister

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sponsor of the university, Albernia. At that

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time, it was Albernia College. And my field was...

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well, it was English and communications. So I

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had the yearbook and I had the student newspaper

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and I taught courses and I had a wonderful mentor.

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She was the academic dean, Sister Pacelli, renowned

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in the congregation as a brilliant woman. She

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was actually an actress before she entered. She

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had planned to go toward a degree in theater

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and try her luck in theater. Broadway, maybe.

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But she mentored me and she would check my syllabus

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and she would offer ideas. Her classes were packed

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to the gills. And I kind of modeled myself on

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what her style was. So that's how I got my start.

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And writing always was part of my nature. I could,

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I journaled all the time, kept a diary. And I,

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so that's, that's where my domain, you could

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say, is. Yeah, now some listening may not be

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familiar with your religious order. Can you explain

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to listeners what a Bernadine sister is? Okay,

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that I know. I am a Bernadine Franciscan sister.

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Our official title is Bernadine Sisters of the

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Third Order of St. Francis. And just by way of

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a comment, the Third Order is the largest Franciscan

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order in the world. It's all, the third order

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is both regular, meaning myself, you know, we

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live at a convent, we take public vows and we

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live the vows, or it could be secular. Secular

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Franciscans are men and women who live in the

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world and they have a job, they have a family,

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but they are committed to the Franciscan way

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of life and they love that life. Just as an aside,

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my mother was a secular Franciscan, as was her

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mother. And my paternal father's brother was

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a secular Franciscan, and he was in the Second

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World War, and he was killed in action. But when

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they sent the tags back to my grandmother in

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the little box, you know how they would do that

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after, you know, when they buried the body and

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they sent the tags back? In there was the cord

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that he wore around his waist that symbolized

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his commitment. to the third order ideals. So

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the Bernadine Franciscan sisters follow the third

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order rule of St. Francis, which is a rule that,

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you know, is built on the three vows of poverty,

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chastity, and obedience. And we are also an active

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order. So we live a life in common, but we have,

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like, I work at this university in Reading, Alberta.

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I work along with other sisters in campus ministry,

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but I had also been a faculty member. And there

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was a period of time where I served even in administration.

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So it's actually as a Bernadine sister, you were

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sent wherever they wanted you to be. And you

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go and God gives you the help that you need to

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fulfill that mission. You talked about your journey

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and your connection with Alvernia University.

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My understanding is that the idea for you to

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write this beautiful book came in some way from

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your experiences, interactions with students

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and faculty at Alvernia. Can you describe the

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story there and talk about where exactly this

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book came from within you? Yes, this book is,

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I mean, I never said to myself, I think I'll

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write a book about St. Francis. I'll call it

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this. It'll be this, you know, and then. It wrote

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itself because it called me. What happened in

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terms of the text itself is, well, I was working

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at Albany at that time. I was already a faculty

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member as well as part of the administration.

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And some of the roles I had were to integrate

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the Franciscan spirit into the university because

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at that point. Many of the sisters who had been

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teachers were now retiring and moving. They had

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health issues. I was the youngest probably the

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whole time I was there. And then at the same

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time, more and more lay teachers were being hired.

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And so the administration said, I talked it over

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with the president and our congregation, which

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sponsors this university, that we need to, as

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the sisters disappear and the lay... instructors

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and teachers and professors come in. They're

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good teachers in their discipline, but they don't

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have the spiritual background. They don't have

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the religious sense of a Franciscan university.

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So I took on, on my own, you know, to meet new

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faculty coming in to explain to them our mission.

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What is our mission? And how do we live it? The

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mission for Alvernia, to learn, to love, to serve.

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You can stop any student on this campus and they

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can tell you that. And it was really a lay president

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who was a deacon in the Catholic Church. He was

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the first lay person after his sister to become

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president. And his idea was to, he wanted to

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put the San Damiano cross, which is the Franciscan

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cross of Christ from Italy, from the Middle Ages,

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in every classroom. And we did. And from there,

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we began to tell a story of St. Francis to students

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and to the new faculty coming in. And after four

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years, every faculty member knew the story. And

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then we began to invite the students to share,

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you know, at different times, the story of St.

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Francis as part of the curriculum. Or the faculty

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member would invite me in as a speaker, and I

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would just do some little thing on the Franciscan

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tradition. So it began to grow this way. So at

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some point, I said to myself, you know, I think

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that I want to leave something behind if I move

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on. And so I was going to create a kind of small

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chapbook, you know, that they could carry or

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that could be distributed at the beginning of

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school at the academic year with terms and words

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and sayings and ideas and all the things about

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the three orders and all of that. So I started

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to put something together and At that time, I

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took a sabbatical. It was only one semester.

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I had the opportunity to go to St. Bonaventure.

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And I had two courses. I think I put this in

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something that I sent to you, maybe. I took two

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courses from Michael Blastic, who was a tremendous

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professor, steeped in the tradition. And he spoke

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at many AFCU conferences, and they were always

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a success. I asked him if he would read. So I

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was taking notes in his class, and then I was

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building the content for the book. And I asked

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him to read it, and he critiqued it, and he gave

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excellent suggestions. And then I was putting

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it together. Sister Margaret Carney at that time

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was president, and I was telling her about the

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text. And she said, oh, that's a great idea.

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We have over 20 schools that are Franciscan.

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We can use that in other schools. I said, oh,

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okay, okay. Never thinking that that would be

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something that I would pursue. I also have to

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give credit to a colleague here, Sister Roberta

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McKelvey, who at that time was at Bonaventure.

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And she then was back at Albernia. And she was

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editor of The Chord. And she did a tremendous

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job putting it together with me. We were in the

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middle of a general chapter, and we were doing

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the editing in between sessions. But I met the

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deadline. and it got published. I know a lot

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of people who are spiritually searching, a lot

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of either recovering Catholics or recovering

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Protestants who are perhaps calloused or a little

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bit frustrated with organized religion. However,

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they find themselves not wanting to let go of

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the Christian tradition, and they still feel

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like there's something there. And Franciscanism,

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to me, It can be that on -ramp for people because,

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I mean, Francis, of course, was this kind of

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guy on the margins, Claire as well. They never

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turned their back on the church. They never turned

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their back on organized religion. However, it

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seems as if they were going places that no one

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else would go, perhaps. And so all that to say,

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I mean, most people just know St. Francis from

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birdbaths. I know Richard Morris talked about

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that. Perhaps a lot of people have not even heard

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of St. Clair. And that's what I love about this

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book is that it's like a Franciscanism 101, in

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a sense. And I'm just wondering, how would you

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explain the Franciscan tradition to perhaps a

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student or a faculty member that you mentioned,

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or a listener to this podcast who is curious

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to learn more about this expansive tradition

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that you write about in this book? Well, you

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know, as you were speaking, Stephen, the idea,

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why is Francis so attractive? Why do people gravitate

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to him? What's his draw? I remember this struck

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me, not just necessarily with writing the book,

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but that another name for Francis in the Middle

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Ages, I guess, was they called him Altair Christus,

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another Christ. I think the draw for Francis

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the draw that he pulls people to himself is that

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he was like Christ. I mean, in his lifetime,

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there were 5 ,000 men who became Franciscan.

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5 ,000. I mean, that's, you know, they just were.

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Now, of course, it was at a time when the church

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was not, you know, they were not exemplary. They

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did not have, they did not reach out to the people.

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They didn't care, really. I mean, they were the

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clergy, and they were the hierarchy, and they

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were preserving the whole tradition handed down

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from Christ. But maybe they didn't understand

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what God would have wanted from them, but they

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spoke Latin. I remember reading one part where

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in the church, there would be a huge platform,

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and on that platform would be the altar. And

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all the clergy would be up there and they would

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be celebrating the liturgy. And they would be

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talking, you know, in Latin. And the people on

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the floor, 25 steps lower, could hardly hear

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them, could not understand them. They made no

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effort to communicate anything to them. And that's

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why Francis had such a hard time with the clergy.

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They wanted to brush him out, you know, brush

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him away. It's like an annoying fly. You know,

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we know what we're doing. had no connection with

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God. They were like lost sheep, and Francis was

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like their shepherd. I think that he drew people

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through his authenticity, but he was also charismatic.

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I mean, he was a short little guy from what I

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hear, but he had a great voice. He sang, he expressed

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himself, and he was a healer. He healed people.

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He talked to animals. When I talk to the students,

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I tell them some of these stories, and their

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eyes are like big saucers. I tell them our mascot

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here in Albany is the Wolf of Gubbio. And I tell

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them the story of the Wolf of Gubbio and how

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Francis tamed the wolf. And then there's one

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little piece that I remember. I think it might

00:15:25.850 --> 00:15:29.629
have been Michael Blasting who gave us that story.

00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:33.179
There was an earthquake in Italy and the church

00:15:33.179 --> 00:15:35.100
crumbled and they were repairing it. And in the

00:15:35.100 --> 00:15:37.240
basement, when they were digging out, excavating

00:15:37.240 --> 00:15:40.759
and enlarging, they found hidden in the basement,

00:15:40.840 --> 00:15:43.840
at the bottom of the basement, the bones of a

00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:48.240
wolf. Really? I did not know that. Yes. Wow.

00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:51.159
And when I tell that story to the students, they

00:15:51.159 --> 00:15:53.519
look at me like a light goes on in their eyes.

00:15:53.559 --> 00:15:57.480
He really did talk to animals. Birds would be

00:15:57.480 --> 00:16:00.480
chirping and they would say, be quiet now because

00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:02.820
I'm talking to the people. They would shut up

00:16:02.820 --> 00:16:06.419
and they'd start chirping. I mean, these are

00:16:06.419 --> 00:16:09.320
the stories, these little flowers of St. Francis

00:16:09.320 --> 00:16:12.740
that sometimes the academics or maybe clergy,

00:16:12.779 --> 00:16:15.139
I don't know, would look down on because they're

00:16:15.139 --> 00:16:18.259
all such cute little stories. There's depth there

00:16:18.259 --> 00:16:22.700
that we have to recognize. There's real depth.

00:16:22.919 --> 00:16:25.460
And if they open their eyes and listen to what

00:16:25.460 --> 00:16:28.419
he's saying and what he did. I mean, he walked

00:16:28.419 --> 00:16:32.159
through the town and people walked right after

00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:35.000
him. They were magnetized. They followed him

00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:44.200
like a sheep would follow a shepherd. We are

00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:46.379
about to move into our first reflection moment

00:16:46.379 --> 00:16:49.980
where we pause, consider. and contemplate the

00:16:49.980 --> 00:16:52.919
contents of what a guest has said. And again,

00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:55.899
guiding us through our reflections today is Dr.

00:16:56.259 --> 00:17:01.700
Darlene Prides. Francis of Assisi is one of the

00:17:01.700 --> 00:17:04.460
most popular saints of our Catholic tradition.

00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:07.920
He's popular among Catholics, among Christians

00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:10.200
of all stripes, and even among people of other

00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:14.319
faith or people who do not hold a faith. So we

00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:16.180
have to ask ourselves, why is he so popular?

00:17:17.289 --> 00:17:20.670
What is it about Francis that makes him appeal

00:17:20.670 --> 00:17:25.609
to so many different people? I think, for me,

00:17:25.789 --> 00:17:30.170
one of the most attractive parts of Francis's

00:17:30.170 --> 00:17:33.730
identity and his way of being is his capacity

00:17:33.730 --> 00:17:37.930
to be deeply present. Present with other people,

00:17:38.130 --> 00:17:42.250
deeply present with all of creation, and even

00:17:42.250 --> 00:17:46.049
deeply present with himself. Now, this might

00:17:46.049 --> 00:17:50.599
sound, pretty easy to do, but in our very fast

00:17:50.599 --> 00:17:55.079
-paced, distracted world in which we live, it

00:17:55.079 --> 00:17:57.619
might be something simple but not easy to be

00:17:57.619 --> 00:18:00.460
deeply present with one another and even with

00:18:00.460 --> 00:18:03.279
ourselves. I'm going to start off with my favorite

00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:06.359
image, and that is the birdbath Francis, because

00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:09.579
after all, especially scholars like to poke fun

00:18:09.579 --> 00:18:12.380
at the birdbath Francis as if it's superficial

00:18:12.380 --> 00:18:16.309
or not serious enough. I don't have a birdbath,

00:18:16.329 --> 00:18:18.950
but I do keep a little statue of Francis on my

00:18:18.950 --> 00:18:24.329
desk. Why? Because I love the gentle look that

00:18:24.329 --> 00:18:29.529
he offers the birds in his hands. And I'm a big

00:18:29.529 --> 00:18:33.009
fan of birdbaths, actually. Again, I'm going

00:18:33.009 --> 00:18:37.450
to ask why. And that is because when birds congregate

00:18:37.450 --> 00:18:39.930
on a birdbath, it actually draws my attention

00:18:39.930 --> 00:18:44.220
in. I actually look at them more deeply. I become

00:18:44.220 --> 00:18:47.480
delighted by the way they wash themselves in

00:18:47.480 --> 00:18:51.460
the water of the birdbath. I'm more deeply present

00:18:51.460 --> 00:18:55.240
with birds when they're in the birdbath, when

00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:59.079
I can focus on their activities there. So I think

00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:02.519
something about the quality of Francis's presence

00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:08.500
with other creatures, even depicted in a birdbath,

00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:12.960
I think there's a deep lesson for us. Do we actually

00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:16.039
see what's in front of us? Are we actually present

00:19:16.039 --> 00:19:19.619
with what's in front of us? I'll admit, sometimes

00:19:19.619 --> 00:19:23.000
I need a tool. And for me, a birdbath is a great

00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:26.279
tool because I'm fascinated by the birds when

00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:31.460
they come to the birdbath. So I'm all about putting

00:19:31.460 --> 00:19:35.119
aside the disparaging comments about Francis

00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:37.319
and the birdbath, but I would like to move on

00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:41.819
from that quality of presence. to some of the

00:19:41.819 --> 00:19:44.660
stories that are told about Francis, and I think

00:19:44.660 --> 00:19:47.200
that's another compelling aspect of Francis of

00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:49.799
Assisi. Sure, there's a lot of theology that

00:19:49.799 --> 00:19:53.559
gets developed around Francis and Franciscan

00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:56.299
spirituality, but Francis himself was pretty

00:19:56.299 --> 00:19:59.500
simple. He wasn't a theologian. We know about

00:19:59.500 --> 00:20:02.799
him through stories and storytelling, and how

00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:06.519
we tell these stories, how we enter into the

00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:10.160
stories closely enough so that we can capture

00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:14.339
the essence or the meaning of the stories, that's

00:20:14.339 --> 00:20:18.900
a spiritual practice that I like to live into

00:20:18.900 --> 00:20:21.920
and have been developing in my own faith journey.

00:20:22.539 --> 00:20:25.460
So I'd like to start off with the story of the

00:20:25.460 --> 00:20:29.720
Wolf of Gubbio. It's a relatively popular story

00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:33.500
about the people of the town of Gubbio who were

00:20:33.500 --> 00:20:36.880
terrorized by a wolf that was attacking their

00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:38.960
livestock and even attacking their children.

00:20:39.819 --> 00:20:43.299
They wanted to seek revenge and kill the wolf.

00:20:44.059 --> 00:20:46.660
You can see even how I'm telling the story, there's

00:20:46.660 --> 00:20:50.119
a lot of energy and a lot of volatile energy

00:20:50.119 --> 00:20:56.019
in part in this story. We're stymied in their

00:20:56.019 --> 00:20:59.720
efforts to kill the wolf. And in fact, they sought

00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:04.099
another way to approach this challenging situation

00:21:04.099 --> 00:21:09.059
and sought Francis to bring in a mode of peacemaking.

00:21:09.450 --> 00:21:12.829
He had a reputation for brokering peace. So they

00:21:12.829 --> 00:21:17.349
called him to town. He arrived and he heard their

00:21:17.349 --> 00:21:21.230
stories and he sensed their fear. He sensed their

00:21:21.230 --> 00:21:30.369
agitation. And he sensed their anger. He observed

00:21:30.369 --> 00:21:33.690
all of this. He was present to it. But he didn't

00:21:33.690 --> 00:21:37.710
react. to it he didn't respond in like manner

00:21:37.710 --> 00:21:42.690
to it he himself did not become volatile itself

00:21:42.690 --> 00:21:45.250
i mean i think is enough of the story for us

00:21:45.250 --> 00:21:49.029
to enter into how often do we get captured in

00:21:49.029 --> 00:21:52.250
by the energy of a group of people around us

00:21:52.250 --> 00:21:55.369
or even a single individual do we allow someone

00:21:55.369 --> 00:21:59.880
else's anger to affect us and make us angry In

00:21:59.880 --> 00:22:03.859
this story, Francis moves into the woods to find

00:22:03.859 --> 00:22:07.200
the wolf, putting aside the people of Gubbio

00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:10.920
for a while. He eventually, again, this is legend,

00:22:11.019 --> 00:22:14.299
so as the legend goes, Francis finds the wolf

00:22:14.299 --> 00:22:20.099
in the woods, and he approaches the wolf gently,

00:22:20.299 --> 00:22:27.140
tenderly, so that he can observe the wolf and

00:22:27.140 --> 00:22:30.799
be deeply present. And he asks the wolf, why

00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:35.099
are you doing this? Out of curiosity, he asks,

00:22:35.140 --> 00:22:39.359
why are you scaring the people of Gubbio? Why

00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:43.220
are you attacking their livestock? Why are you

00:22:43.220 --> 00:22:49.460
attacking their children? Again, that just causes

00:22:49.460 --> 00:22:52.319
us to stop and pause for a moment. How often

00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:55.839
do we cultivate curiosity around someone else's

00:22:55.839 --> 00:23:00.240
anger or around someone else's behavior? Can

00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:06.220
we stop and ask why? Other than being drawn into

00:23:06.220 --> 00:23:11.779
perhaps volatile or negative energy. So again,

00:23:11.819 --> 00:23:15.420
as the legend goes, the wolf responded by saying,

00:23:15.539 --> 00:23:19.099
I've lost my pack. I'm all alone. I'm hungry.

00:23:19.859 --> 00:23:29.430
I need to eat. I'm afraid. All perfectly legitimate

00:23:29.430 --> 00:23:36.650
reasons for sustaining his own life, right? So

00:23:36.650 --> 00:23:39.789
Francis brokers a deal and says, what if the

00:23:39.789 --> 00:23:43.369
people of Gubbio fed you, offered you a place

00:23:43.369 --> 00:23:46.410
to live and fed you? Would you stop attacking

00:23:46.410 --> 00:23:50.170
them? And according to legend, the wolf said

00:23:50.170 --> 00:23:53.970
yes. So Francis and the wolf walk back into the

00:23:53.970 --> 00:23:56.710
town of Gubbio, and you can imagine the shock

00:23:56.710 --> 00:24:01.569
of the people when they walk into town. But Francis

00:24:01.569 --> 00:24:05.630
explains and asks the people of Gubbio, would

00:24:05.630 --> 00:24:11.069
you be willing to feed the wolf? And when they

00:24:11.069 --> 00:24:14.069
agree, according to legend, the people and the

00:24:14.069 --> 00:24:16.549
wolf of Gubbio lived in peace for the next three

00:24:16.549 --> 00:24:21.039
years until the wolf died. This story for me

00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:24.980
points out so many different simple but maybe

00:24:24.980 --> 00:24:31.579
not easy features of navigating conflict. Most

00:24:31.579 --> 00:24:35.220
of all, deep listening to the issues involved

00:24:35.220 --> 00:24:39.960
and cultivating a sense of curiosity around those

00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:44.799
issues to ask, to investigate, and to consider

00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:50.650
a solution that is other than detrimental or

00:24:50.650 --> 00:24:54.009
violent. Certainly we need skills like this today

00:24:54.009 --> 00:25:00.369
where we can enter into a volatile crowd or even

00:25:00.369 --> 00:25:03.470
enter into a conversation with one volatile person

00:25:03.470 --> 00:25:07.609
and rather than receive that volatility or anger

00:25:07.609 --> 00:25:12.130
ourselves, listen deeply and respond with curiosity.

00:25:17.550 --> 00:25:20.369
That reminds me of a great quote in your book.

00:25:20.490 --> 00:25:25.089
You write, for Franciscans, the focus or gaze

00:25:25.089 --> 00:25:29.430
is not upward, but rather outward toward ordinary

00:25:29.430 --> 00:25:32.789
human life. Can you explain for our listeners

00:25:32.789 --> 00:25:36.210
what you mean by this and how the Franciscan

00:25:36.210 --> 00:25:39.430
way opens this up for us? Okay. I think I take

00:25:39.430 --> 00:25:44.849
it from the example of the Lord Jesus, who referred

00:25:44.849 --> 00:25:47.880
to, of course, God, our Father. and taught the

00:25:47.880 --> 00:25:52.019
Lord's Prayer, and understood that our real destiny

00:25:52.019 --> 00:25:56.059
is to return to the Father. But he knew that

00:25:56.059 --> 00:25:58.099
it was not going to be just me doing that. I'm

00:25:58.099 --> 00:26:00.640
not going to go myself. He wanted others to go

00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:03.420
with him. And so that's why he was sent. God

00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:06.720
sent him to bring the world, to bring all of

00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:09.960
creation back into the arms, the loving arms

00:26:09.960 --> 00:26:14.160
of the Father. The whole sense, I mean, there's

00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:16.539
just, it could be so much to talk about. It's

00:26:16.539 --> 00:26:18.720
like a million threads, but you have to bring

00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:21.240
them all together and weave it so that you get

00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:24.019
the story right. But from the beginning of time,

00:26:24.380 --> 00:26:26.660
I mean, you know, wherever we are in the Bible

00:26:26.660 --> 00:26:31.180
or wherever we are in the evolution of human

00:26:31.180 --> 00:26:35.980
life, at some point, men and women began to look

00:26:35.980 --> 00:26:39.619
for something above their just survival. And

00:26:39.619 --> 00:26:42.960
as that... began to grow. They felt a longing

00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:45.579
to know more, and there was an emptiness. So

00:26:45.579 --> 00:26:48.420
by the time we come to the Middle Ages, the church,

00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:51.519
which should have been feeding that hunger, was

00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:55.680
missing the boat. They hadn't gotten it yet.

00:26:56.200 --> 00:26:59.900
But Francis, in his humility and in his simplicity,

00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:05.380
God chose him. God chose him to be the one that

00:27:05.380 --> 00:27:08.000
would be the man who would change the world.

00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:12.099
And he had his own trial. He was a rich man.

00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:15.579
He was a rich young man, wealthy, had a wonderful

00:27:15.579 --> 00:27:18.140
life, you know, ran around. His father gave him

00:27:18.140 --> 00:27:22.240
everything he wanted. He was his favorite. And

00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:24.220
he wanted to go to war. Sure, you can go to war.

00:27:24.299 --> 00:27:25.900
I want a horse. Here's the horse. Here's the

00:27:25.900 --> 00:27:28.299
saddle. Here's everything you need. And of course,

00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:30.640
they lost the battle and he was captured and

00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:33.940
he almost died. And that one year, his father

00:27:33.940 --> 00:27:37.839
had to ransom him. And it took a while. But by

00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:41.900
the time he came out, he knew, I'm on the wrong

00:27:41.900 --> 00:27:44.420
path. I have to go the other way. And then you

00:27:44.420 --> 00:27:47.640
have those stories about, you know, he was repulsed

00:27:47.640 --> 00:27:50.500
by lepers and he forced himself to get down off

00:27:50.500 --> 00:27:52.980
the horse and go over and kiss the leper. I'm

00:27:52.980 --> 00:27:55.160
getting a little bit of a drift here, but there's

00:27:55.160 --> 00:27:57.599
a course we have at Alvernia. It's called Search.

00:27:57.880 --> 00:28:01.809
I have mentioned it to you before. Stephen, it's

00:28:01.809 --> 00:28:05.009
a course on how students prepare to get really

00:28:05.009 --> 00:28:08.289
serious about college education. And I teach,

00:28:08.410 --> 00:28:13.009
I speak to every single class of students who

00:28:13.009 --> 00:28:14.890
are all freshmen. Maybe there would be about

00:28:14.890 --> 00:28:19.670
300 students over a range of 25 classes in a

00:28:19.670 --> 00:28:23.009
semester. And I give the same thing to every

00:28:23.009 --> 00:28:25.210
class, but it's all based on the Franciscan tradition.

00:28:26.069 --> 00:28:29.819
And when I tell them some of these stories, They

00:28:29.819 --> 00:28:33.900
just hang on every word. I can see that in them.

00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:38.099
There is someone underpinning all this with the

00:28:38.099 --> 00:28:41.599
education. And they recognize a culture at Alvernia

00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:45.140
that is really unique. There is a spirit here.

00:28:45.339 --> 00:28:48.819
There's a kindness here. There is a searching

00:28:48.819 --> 00:28:52.500
sense of what's my destiny and what can I do

00:28:52.500 --> 00:28:55.119
with my life? Not just my degree, go out and

00:28:55.119 --> 00:28:57.339
get a job. What's my life going to be about?

00:28:58.319 --> 00:29:00.839
So I think that this is how Francis impacted

00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:04.819
people. Yeah. That's the key to his popularity.

00:29:06.059 --> 00:29:09.660
Yep. Yeah. And I mean, you're mentioning like

00:29:09.660 --> 00:29:12.500
the young people who are the who interact with

00:29:12.500 --> 00:29:14.819
every day who are spiritually hungry. And I mean,

00:29:14.819 --> 00:29:18.079
to go back to one of the visuals you gave about

00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:20.859
people in a church in the Middle Ages, either

00:29:20.859 --> 00:29:24.519
unable to understand the Latin in some places

00:29:24.519 --> 00:29:28.700
or unable to hear. Unable to hear the liturgy.

00:29:28.839 --> 00:29:31.500
And I think that's the way a lot of people feel.

00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:36.880
And yet, here are figures like Francis coming

00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:40.099
along and saying like, hey, look out at the world.

00:29:40.220 --> 00:29:42.980
Christ is there. You know, look out at the person

00:29:42.980 --> 00:29:46.839
you rejected. Christ is there. Look at your pet.

00:29:47.079 --> 00:29:49.480
You know, my dog's on the other end of this camera.

00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:53.799
Like, Christ is there. And this very human person

00:29:53.799 --> 00:29:57.920
inviting people to see. And to realize that the

00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:01.079
church is everywhere while also not turning his

00:30:01.079 --> 00:30:02.980
back on the church. I mean, it's the ultimate

00:30:02.980 --> 00:30:05.759
non -dualistic move. It's brilliant. But all

00:30:05.759 --> 00:30:09.259
that to say, I'm wondering, with the young people

00:30:09.259 --> 00:30:11.819
you interact with every day and these people

00:30:11.819 --> 00:30:14.640
who are hungry, spiritually searching, how do

00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:17.339
you believe that the Franciscan way can help

00:30:17.339 --> 00:30:21.680
to rebuild the church today? That's an excellent

00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:24.829
question. Actually, Stephen, that's something

00:30:24.829 --> 00:30:29.549
that I pray about a lot. You know, Francis, I

00:30:29.549 --> 00:30:33.130
think Francis shows us how. Francis never intended

00:30:33.130 --> 00:30:35.390
to, you know, he didn't wake up when his father

00:30:35.390 --> 00:30:37.970
ransomed him from the prison and he came home

00:30:37.970 --> 00:30:41.309
and he was like walking around and rift in the

00:30:41.309 --> 00:30:43.589
city and his buddies would say, come on, Francis,

00:30:43.710 --> 00:30:45.509
let's let's go drinking. You know, let's go down

00:30:45.509 --> 00:30:49.410
to the local bar. No, no, not tonight. You know,

00:30:49.430 --> 00:30:52.109
you know, they could. What happened to you? Well,

00:30:52.170 --> 00:30:54.380
they. chopped it up to being in prison or you

00:30:54.380 --> 00:30:56.099
know he maybe his health isn't great or whatever

00:30:56.099 --> 00:31:01.680
but francis had um he was a chosen soul francis

00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:05.740
was authentically uh and wrapped and you know

00:31:05.740 --> 00:31:09.420
attracted to god and and and he just grew and

00:31:09.420 --> 00:31:12.200
grew and god poured and poured more graces into

00:31:12.200 --> 00:31:14.859
his soul and the more he received from god the

00:31:14.859 --> 00:31:20.079
more he gave out and so francis became um He

00:31:20.079 --> 00:31:24.539
affected society just by his person. And all

00:31:24.539 --> 00:31:27.559
he wanted to do was live like Christ. And that's

00:31:27.559 --> 00:31:29.940
why, we'll go back to the term I used in the

00:31:29.940 --> 00:31:33.000
beginning, an alter Christus. I want to be you

00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:36.059
on this earth. And just as Jesus walked along

00:31:36.059 --> 00:31:39.180
and chose one and chose another, and then they

00:31:39.180 --> 00:31:42.299
all started to meet the people, and he began

00:31:42.299 --> 00:31:46.000
to tell them about God and the Father and his

00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:48.740
love for the world. That's what Frances did.

00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:51.880
And more and more men, and then Claire, Claire

00:31:51.880 --> 00:31:54.559
of Assisi, who watched him from the tower of

00:31:54.559 --> 00:31:57.400
her home and fled to him in the middle of the

00:31:57.400 --> 00:31:59.180
night. You know, they were romanticized. She

00:31:59.180 --> 00:32:02.759
eloped to meet Frances. Well, she ran away from

00:32:02.759 --> 00:32:04.880
home is what she did because they had her all

00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:07.819
lined up to marry some count or something. And

00:32:07.819 --> 00:32:12.180
she herself was a religious soul. She was a spiritual

00:32:12.180 --> 00:32:15.859
woman. She was only 14 or 15 years old, but she

00:32:15.859 --> 00:32:18.839
knew she belonged to God, nobody else. But then

00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:21.640
women joined her. Her sister, her mother, they

00:32:21.640 --> 00:32:25.400
joined her. But she became the cloistered branch.

00:32:25.539 --> 00:32:27.980
That's the second order. Francis is the first.

00:32:28.279 --> 00:32:31.740
She's the second. And then all the women who

00:32:31.740 --> 00:32:35.759
were either married or single or wanted to stay

00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:38.400
in the world and live a Franciscan way of life

00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:42.380
became the third order. And that's where Francis

00:32:42.380 --> 00:32:46.960
really found, why we say he founded the three

00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:50.240
orders, because all three of them flow from his

00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:53.400
own spirituality. Well, you keep bringing it

00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:55.559
back to something that I think is really important.

00:32:55.960 --> 00:33:00.019
I mean, you hear a word like Franciscan and it

00:33:00.019 --> 00:33:03.380
feels so obscure if you've never heard it before.

00:33:03.420 --> 00:33:05.599
It's like, what does that mean? Like, you know,

00:33:05.619 --> 00:33:08.240
don't we all, if you're a Christian, don't you

00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:11.650
just want to follow? christ like why bring francis

00:33:11.650 --> 00:33:14.450
claire into this francis and claire that they

00:33:14.450 --> 00:33:17.769
make it simple and they're the way they followed

00:33:17.769 --> 00:33:20.910
christ is just so counter -cultural and profound

00:33:20.910 --> 00:33:23.710
anyway you keep bringing it back to that and

00:33:23.710 --> 00:33:26.130
i appreciate that because like i i really think

00:33:26.130 --> 00:33:28.529
and that was my understanding is that that was

00:33:28.529 --> 00:33:40.259
the appeal then too is that i mean they're They're

00:33:40.259 --> 00:33:43.440
living in a way that perhaps had been neglected

00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:47.140
or forgotten in how people perceived what it

00:33:47.140 --> 00:33:50.740
meant to follow Christ. What I think is, Francis

00:33:50.740 --> 00:33:54.440
was like new on the scene, sort of. He had a

00:33:54.440 --> 00:33:59.660
unique appeal. His way of walking through life

00:33:59.660 --> 00:34:03.799
and his way of honoring God and his interaction

00:34:03.799 --> 00:34:07.660
with people, his connection with nature. The

00:34:07.660 --> 00:34:11.860
Benedictines, they existed. The Dominicans, they

00:34:11.860 --> 00:34:15.639
existed, all at the same time. There is a charism

00:34:15.639 --> 00:34:18.739
for every congregation. I like to think about

00:34:18.739 --> 00:34:22.320
it sort of like nature. You have daisies, and

00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:25.480
you have roses, and you have plain old grass.

00:34:26.579 --> 00:34:31.980
And some people will prefer a daisy. I remember

00:34:31.980 --> 00:34:33.820
going to a friend's wedding, and she carried

00:34:33.820 --> 00:34:37.019
a bouquet of daisies in. Another friend would

00:34:37.019 --> 00:34:41.019
have a bouquet of roses. But it's what you find

00:34:41.019 --> 00:34:44.559
attractive, what draws you. God gives you the

00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:47.159
vocation, and God draws you through the vocation.

00:34:47.239 --> 00:34:50.519
So the author is God. And just as God has created

00:34:50.519 --> 00:34:54.840
this wildly diverse universe, starting with our

00:34:54.840 --> 00:34:58.239
world, which is complex and beautiful, and so

00:34:58.239 --> 00:35:00.820
many different animals, and so many different

00:35:00.820 --> 00:35:08.030
plants. different people and different approaches

00:35:08.030 --> 00:35:10.449
to the way they live their life. That's the way

00:35:10.449 --> 00:35:15.210
it was with God and all of nature. And so I think

00:35:15.210 --> 00:35:20.369
Francis was the right man at the right time in

00:35:20.369 --> 00:35:29.969
God's plan. From Sister Rosemary's book, there's

00:35:29.969 --> 00:35:33.329
a beautiful sentence that I'd like to talk about.

00:35:34.159 --> 00:35:37.820
It goes, for Franciscans, the focus or gaze is

00:35:37.820 --> 00:35:41.139
not upward, but rather outward toward ordinary

00:35:41.139 --> 00:35:45.219
human life. Our gaze, our focus is not upward,

00:35:45.380 --> 00:35:48.019
but outward toward one another, towards all of

00:35:48.019 --> 00:35:53.800
creation, towards all of our fellow humans. What

00:35:53.800 --> 00:35:59.519
does this mean for my faith and your faith? I

00:35:59.519 --> 00:36:03.210
think for Franciscans, this means that We enter

00:36:03.210 --> 00:36:05.969
into ongoing conversion by being in relationship

00:36:05.969 --> 00:36:09.349
with one another. There's a famous phrase that

00:36:09.349 --> 00:36:11.090
says, if you think you're enlightened, go spend

00:36:11.090 --> 00:36:14.789
a week with your family. Well, Franciscan spirituality

00:36:14.789 --> 00:36:18.690
is something like that, in that our family members,

00:36:18.949 --> 00:36:21.829
our friends, people that we live in community

00:36:21.829 --> 00:36:25.190
with, they're our best teachers because they

00:36:25.190 --> 00:36:30.349
are the ones that we have to live with and manage

00:36:30.349 --> 00:36:36.130
our our daily lives with. They're also the people

00:36:36.130 --> 00:36:41.409
whose hands our ongoing conversion rests. There's

00:36:41.409 --> 00:36:44.670
a great example of this in Francis of Assisi's

00:36:44.670 --> 00:36:47.590
talking about his encounters with the lepers.

00:36:47.949 --> 00:36:52.750
His ongoing conversion was really sought after,

00:36:53.110 --> 00:36:56.449
was really developed within relationship with

00:36:56.449 --> 00:37:00.349
lepers. We know that as a young man he reviled

00:37:00.730 --> 00:37:03.710
the lepers. He made fun of them. He ridiculed

00:37:03.710 --> 00:37:07.489
them. He made nasty gestures at them. He couldn't

00:37:07.489 --> 00:37:09.369
stand the sight or the smell of them. He would

00:37:09.369 --> 00:37:12.690
run away, not even the sight of them. He wouldn't

00:37:12.690 --> 00:37:14.530
get that close. He'd run away before he could

00:37:14.530 --> 00:37:22.010
see a leper. And yeah, we know that in time there

00:37:22.010 --> 00:37:25.210
was something that changed in him. He turned

00:37:25.210 --> 00:37:27.929
around and encountered a leper and was willing

00:37:27.929 --> 00:37:32.250
to face him face to face, eye to eye. In time,

00:37:32.250 --> 00:37:35.150
he lived among the lepers, served them, and they

00:37:35.150 --> 00:37:39.989
served him. In what way? Perhaps they didn't

00:37:39.989 --> 00:37:45.510
prepare his meals for him. Maybe they did. But

00:37:45.510 --> 00:37:50.460
by being there, by being present, he... cultivated

00:37:50.460 --> 00:37:53.780
this capacity to be present with those very people

00:37:53.780 --> 00:37:57.699
he had reviled. So the lesson here is for us

00:37:57.699 --> 00:38:00.920
to ask ourselves, who are the lepers in our own

00:38:00.920 --> 00:38:05.519
lives? Who's the leper in my life? Who are those

00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:08.039
people that I've run away from, I don't want

00:38:08.039 --> 00:38:12.300
to engage in, I don't even want to look at? And

00:38:12.300 --> 00:38:15.800
is it possible to develop the capacity to be

00:38:15.800 --> 00:38:19.889
present? to be curious about their livelihood,

00:38:20.329 --> 00:38:23.429
about who they are, why they think the way they

00:38:23.429 --> 00:38:28.210
do, why they do things the way they do. And in

00:38:28.210 --> 00:38:30.670
that developing relationship, is it possible

00:38:30.670 --> 00:38:36.449
to see our own opening of heart, our own ongoing

00:38:36.449 --> 00:38:41.469
conversion developing? I think this is at the

00:38:41.469 --> 00:38:45.210
heart of the Franciscan spiritual movement. And

00:38:45.210 --> 00:38:47.429
really is at the heart of this phrase that Sister

00:38:47.429 --> 00:38:50.650
Rosemary brings forward. For Franciscans, the

00:38:50.650 --> 00:38:55.489
focus and gaze is not upward, but rather outward

00:38:55.489 --> 00:39:00.670
toward ordinary human life. It's in our relationships

00:39:00.670 --> 00:39:03.869
with one another that our conversions develop,

00:39:04.110 --> 00:39:09.989
our faith develops and strengthens, and we become

00:39:09.989 --> 00:39:14.630
more vulnerable and open -hearted. in the process.

00:39:20.369 --> 00:39:23.389
One aspect of Franciscan spirituality that you

00:39:23.389 --> 00:39:25.570
write about in your book that I wanted to dive

00:39:25.570 --> 00:39:28.670
into for a little bit is the idea of poverty.

00:39:28.869 --> 00:39:30.690
And of course, for Francis and Claire, it wasn't

00:39:30.690 --> 00:39:32.849
just an idea. I mean, it was a lived reality.

00:39:33.050 --> 00:39:36.530
And I liked your phrasing in the book. You described

00:39:36.530 --> 00:39:40.090
Franciscan poverty as a, quote, poverty of being.

00:39:40.860 --> 00:39:44.440
What do you mean by this phrase? And how do you

00:39:44.440 --> 00:39:47.539
think adopting a poverty of being can help each

00:39:47.539 --> 00:39:51.579
of us today? Christian or non -Christian, Franciscan

00:39:51.579 --> 00:39:53.840
or non -Franciscan? I think there's something

00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:57.079
valuable here for each of us. When I say poverty

00:39:57.079 --> 00:40:02.440
of being, I want to use that expression and kind

00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:07.639
of match it up to how we live poverty. And so

00:40:07.639 --> 00:40:12.909
when we say You know, today, there's poor people

00:40:12.909 --> 00:40:15.530
everywhere and they're miserable. And that shouldn't

00:40:15.530 --> 00:40:19.389
be because they're being deprived. Genuine poverty

00:40:19.389 --> 00:40:24.849
is a spiritual experience that we recognize that

00:40:24.849 --> 00:40:28.829
we are nothing, that we are only alive because

00:40:28.829 --> 00:40:33.849
of the mercy and goodness and overwhelming transformative

00:40:33.849 --> 00:40:38.460
love of God. That God from all eternity wanted

00:40:38.460 --> 00:40:41.480
me, wanted you, wanted every human being to be

00:40:41.480 --> 00:40:45.820
born, to be born and to live and to have a life

00:40:45.820 --> 00:40:50.380
of service to the world and to God and to have

00:40:50.380 --> 00:40:54.559
a role to play, to have something to contribute.

00:40:55.320 --> 00:40:57.579
You know, I talk to the students always about

00:40:57.579 --> 00:41:00.659
what is your mission in life? And they'll say,

00:41:00.699 --> 00:41:03.119
well, that's your job, isn't it? You are the

00:41:03.119 --> 00:41:06.280
mission director. But no, you also have a mission.

00:41:06.380 --> 00:41:08.599
And what will that be? And how will you live

00:41:08.599 --> 00:41:11.639
it? And how will you know what it is until you

00:41:11.639 --> 00:41:15.840
find it? How do you discern? What is discernment?

00:41:15.940 --> 00:41:19.539
How do you do discernment? There's a million

00:41:19.539 --> 00:41:21.940
ways that you could go with that. But I also

00:41:21.940 --> 00:41:25.019
think poverty of being is, among all else, a

00:41:25.019 --> 00:41:30.289
yearning to be like Christ in his poverty. And

00:41:30.289 --> 00:41:32.289
what does that mean? Not that he didn't have

00:41:32.289 --> 00:41:35.469
a mother -father food on the table. His poverty

00:41:35.469 --> 00:41:40.769
was that he left the glory of the father's side.

00:41:41.269 --> 00:41:47.909
He was the son of God, the pinnacle of anything

00:41:47.909 --> 00:41:51.050
that any human person would want to have, that

00:41:51.050 --> 00:41:56.630
he was sent by the father to the earth to become

00:41:56.630 --> 00:41:59.860
a human person. to live among us, to experience

00:41:59.860 --> 00:42:05.559
our life. But for what purpose? So that we, being

00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:09.760
transformed by Christ, could go back to the Father

00:42:09.760 --> 00:42:14.480
and have the same status as Christ with the Father.

00:42:14.739 --> 00:42:18.860
Like his humanity comes down to our humanity,

00:42:18.980 --> 00:42:22.679
and our humanity goes back up to the Father after

00:42:22.679 --> 00:42:26.309
death to be with him in his humanity. One with

00:42:26.309 --> 00:42:29.489
the Father within the Trinity. And that to me

00:42:29.489 --> 00:42:32.989
was, I didn't know how else to explain it except

00:42:32.989 --> 00:42:36.809
to say, you know, it's from within. Yeah, because

00:42:36.809 --> 00:42:39.409
I think when some people hear that word like

00:42:39.409 --> 00:42:42.849
poverty, like you mentioned, I mean, real physical

00:42:42.849 --> 00:42:45.590
poverty, like that's an evil, you know, like

00:42:45.590 --> 00:42:50.000
people. People should have their basic needs

00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:53.099
met, especially in this country. Yes. I mean,

00:42:53.239 --> 00:42:56.900
with all of our wealth and opportunities here.

00:42:57.539 --> 00:42:59.739
However, you're talking about something else.

00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:02.159
If I'm hearing you correctly, poverty of being

00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:05.300
can actually be liberating. Well, absolutely.

00:43:06.119 --> 00:43:08.500
Because then you stop chasing things. Then you

00:43:08.500 --> 00:43:11.920
stop trying to grasp at things. Then you stop

00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:15.239
trying to control your life. You mentioned that

00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:18.219
trajectory of the divine, God coming to us and

00:43:18.219 --> 00:43:21.099
then divinization, you know, us becoming more

00:43:21.099 --> 00:43:24.420
like God. This kenosis, this kenotic kind of

00:43:24.420 --> 00:43:28.860
movement of letting go, self -emptying. For me

00:43:28.860 --> 00:43:31.579
in my own life, it began to make more, like Franciscan

00:43:31.579 --> 00:43:34.119
poverty began to make more sense to me when I

00:43:34.119 --> 00:43:37.139
began to put it in the context of what are the

00:43:37.139 --> 00:43:39.699
things in my life I'm trying so desperately to

00:43:39.699 --> 00:43:43.239
control, okay? It's time to let that go and trust

00:43:43.239 --> 00:43:50.219
that I am becoming more like Christ in this letting

00:43:50.219 --> 00:43:53.400
go, that something is happening on a deeper level

00:43:53.400 --> 00:43:56.380
for me. My heart is being formed. My mind is

00:43:56.380 --> 00:44:01.260
being formed. And for me, that's like one element

00:44:01.260 --> 00:44:03.340
of Franciscan poverty. Do you have any thoughts

00:44:03.340 --> 00:44:06.840
there? I think actually you're paraphrasing what

00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:10.289
I said to Stephen almost. Almost better than

00:44:10.289 --> 00:44:13.570
I said it to. I don't know about that. It's coming

00:44:13.570 --> 00:44:17.269
from you as a person searching, you know, and

00:44:17.269 --> 00:44:20.530
I'm a person searching, too. But my understanding

00:44:20.530 --> 00:44:24.090
of it is it's not always I mean, that's not when

00:44:24.090 --> 00:44:26.070
I entered and took the vows for the first time.

00:44:26.110 --> 00:44:28.510
That's not what I thought I was. I knew poverty.

00:44:28.630 --> 00:44:30.670
I was going to give up, you know, having fancy

00:44:30.670 --> 00:44:32.940
clothes because. At that time, we were wearing

00:44:32.940 --> 00:44:35.780
habits and veils and we were, you know, it was

00:44:35.780 --> 00:44:39.840
all the traditional religious lifestyle. But

00:44:39.840 --> 00:44:44.780
poverty, I didn't mind it. It wasn't something

00:44:44.780 --> 00:44:48.300
that I mourned over. You know, oh, I can never

00:44:48.300 --> 00:44:50.860
have my bike back. You know, I can't ride. You

00:44:50.860 --> 00:44:53.199
know, I can't. I don't have money to. I remember

00:44:53.199 --> 00:44:56.199
riding the train from Philadelphia back to our

00:44:56.199 --> 00:44:57.880
mother house here in Reading, and I didn't even

00:44:57.880 --> 00:45:00.460
have a dime in my pocket to make a phone call.

00:45:00.940 --> 00:45:04.980
if I needed to. And I mean, those days are long

00:45:04.980 --> 00:45:07.619
gone, of course, but, you know, and it never

00:45:07.619 --> 00:45:10.780
bothered me. But again, I was young and everybody

00:45:10.780 --> 00:45:13.320
else was doing it. And so it was my lot to do

00:45:13.320 --> 00:45:18.699
it too. But for me, poverty as chastity, as obedience

00:45:18.699 --> 00:45:24.980
has been a struggle and a joy, has been a debt

00:45:24.980 --> 00:45:27.519
greater for understanding of its purpose and

00:45:27.519 --> 00:45:31.019
meaning. And as I see it matched to how Christ

00:45:31.019 --> 00:45:36.119
lived, obedient to the Father, humble and poor,

00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:41.000
and a total love for humanity and all of its

00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:44.659
sinfulness and in all of its glory. And so, you

00:45:44.659 --> 00:45:47.460
know, each time I think about, you know, I make

00:45:47.460 --> 00:45:50.139
retreats and I go, you know, away for spiritual

00:45:50.139 --> 00:45:54.039
direction and all of the above. You can never

00:45:54.039 --> 00:45:56.679
have enough and you can never. find that, okay,

00:45:56.800 --> 00:45:59.559
now I've got it all. Now I don't have to worry

00:45:59.559 --> 00:46:01.800
about it. I could just sit back and relax and

00:46:01.800 --> 00:46:05.059
live it out. No, it's an ongoing journey and

00:46:05.059 --> 00:46:09.000
it just always keeps getting deeper. Yeah. And

00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:13.019
it's a huge thing in our culture because it seems

00:46:13.019 --> 00:46:16.820
like so often we are always looking for that

00:46:16.820 --> 00:46:21.010
thing to fill us. Um, and that can be material

00:46:21.010 --> 00:46:23.369
or, I mean, we see this a lot these days that

00:46:23.369 --> 00:46:25.969
can be ideological too. You know, like we're,

00:46:25.989 --> 00:46:28.849
we're looking for that thing that answers all

00:46:28.849 --> 00:46:30.829
of our questions. We're looking for that thing

00:46:30.829 --> 00:46:33.170
that gives us ultimate certainty so that we can

00:46:33.170 --> 00:46:36.829
be right and holy and look down. That's the egoic

00:46:36.829 --> 00:46:39.110
aspect. Like we, so that we can look down on

00:46:39.110 --> 00:46:42.650
others. Franciscan poverty says like, let that

00:46:42.650 --> 00:46:46.789
go. Let that go. Like the, in, in the emptiness,

00:46:47.090 --> 00:46:51.059
it only in that. disorienting emptiness, can

00:46:51.059 --> 00:46:54.960
God be the one that fills us? Exactly. And that's

00:46:54.960 --> 00:46:59.079
the purpose of poverty. Poverty as a value isn't

00:46:59.079 --> 00:47:02.780
a value, really. Poverty as a vow isn't to make

00:47:02.780 --> 00:47:07.500
you feel lower and hungry or imperfect or even

00:47:07.500 --> 00:47:11.059
just a failure. Poverty is to free you, to free

00:47:11.059 --> 00:47:12.820
you, to do all those things you've mentioned

00:47:12.820 --> 00:47:16.219
and to keep on going even further and faster.

00:47:16.730 --> 00:47:18.949
to the god who created you and is calling you

00:47:18.949 --> 00:47:22.630
home yeah i love that that's beautiful um and

00:47:22.630 --> 00:47:25.889
of course you mentioned it earlier but you know

00:47:25.889 --> 00:47:28.949
the notion of poverty and that brings us to the

00:47:28.949 --> 00:47:32.130
humility of god um the title of sister eli dealio's

00:47:32.130 --> 00:47:36.110
book um and in the franciscan approach the incarnation

00:47:36.110 --> 00:47:39.190
you mentioned this in your book this is a This

00:47:39.190 --> 00:47:41.750
is a big theological element that kind of sets

00:47:41.750 --> 00:47:44.769
Franciscans apart, correct? I mean, you mentioned

00:47:44.769 --> 00:47:47.769
Duns Scotus. I mean, you've got a great section

00:47:47.769 --> 00:47:51.030
in your book where you go through all these notable

00:47:51.030 --> 00:47:54.630
Franciscans through the centuries, and each section

00:47:54.630 --> 00:47:57.650
is kind of an on -ramp to further explore them

00:47:57.650 --> 00:48:01.329
if you want to. And Scotus, of course, came along

00:48:01.329 --> 00:48:04.530
and he refuted St. Anselm's popular atonement

00:48:04.530 --> 00:48:07.050
theory, which is basically the idea that God

00:48:07.050 --> 00:48:11.480
became man. order to die for our sins. And SCOTUS

00:48:11.480 --> 00:48:14.059
argued that the incarnation would have still

00:48:14.059 --> 00:48:17.239
happened, even if Adam and Eve had not sinned.

00:48:17.239 --> 00:48:22.340
And I mean, this may seem like a wacky kind of

00:48:22.340 --> 00:48:25.340
interpretation of the incarnation to many Christians

00:48:25.340 --> 00:48:28.500
listening to this, who have only heard of sin

00:48:28.500 --> 00:48:31.900
as the explanation for the incarnation. However,

00:48:32.099 --> 00:48:35.420
can you discuss where SCOTUS was coming from

00:48:35.420 --> 00:48:39.880
and how this was actually not a new idea and

00:48:39.880 --> 00:48:42.800
the Franciscans were bringing forth something

00:48:42.800 --> 00:48:45.300
that was actually quite ancient and perennial

00:48:45.300 --> 00:48:48.820
in the Christian tradition? We'll try, Stephen.

00:48:49.760 --> 00:48:52.760
It's a big question. We're just talking about

00:48:52.760 --> 00:48:58.000
God becoming human. No big deal. Actually, you

00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:01.659
know, I... I read Scotus and I admire him. I

00:49:01.659 --> 00:49:04.059
understand what he's trying to say. But sometimes

00:49:04.059 --> 00:49:08.039
to be able to articulate it back to you, I want

00:49:08.039 --> 00:49:12.900
to do it justice. And I'm not a scholar in that

00:49:12.900 --> 00:49:16.280
particular era, but neither was Francis a scholar.

00:49:16.539 --> 00:49:22.099
So what I see in Francis and how Scotus perceived

00:49:22.099 --> 00:49:25.940
it was that Francis followed the inspiration

00:49:25.940 --> 00:49:30.920
of God. He built his whole life around Jesus

00:49:30.920 --> 00:49:35.280
Christ. He wanted to do, he created the Bethlehem

00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:39.559
scene because he wanted to re -replicate what

00:49:39.559 --> 00:49:42.900
the Lord did. Then his whole, he was a common

00:49:42.900 --> 00:49:45.980
man. He was a simple man. He was one of the people

00:49:45.980 --> 00:49:49.480
of the city. And all he was trying to do is help

00:49:49.480 --> 00:49:52.719
them see God the way he saw God in all these

00:49:52.719 --> 00:49:56.000
little manifestations of picturesque little scenarios,

00:49:56.300 --> 00:50:00.210
you know. And the fact that he had the stigmata,

00:50:00.349 --> 00:50:05.070
the fact that, you know, and he tried to conceal

00:50:05.070 --> 00:50:08.329
it at the end of his life, and he suffered terribly

00:50:08.329 --> 00:50:13.030
from it. He was going blind, and they cauterized

00:50:13.030 --> 00:50:15.809
his eyes, which did nothing but cause him pain.

00:50:16.050 --> 00:50:18.449
And he was singing as they did it, and he said

00:50:18.449 --> 00:50:22.449
he felt nothing. But, of course, he did, being

00:50:22.449 --> 00:50:25.570
human, but he transcended it in his mind, in

00:50:25.570 --> 00:50:28.489
his heart. He was so one with God that he could

00:50:28.489 --> 00:50:30.969
feel only God's love, even though his body was

00:50:30.969 --> 00:50:34.449
in pain. And I think this is what Scotus is trying

00:50:34.449 --> 00:50:41.530
to say in some way, that Christ Jesus is one

00:50:41.530 --> 00:50:45.650
of us. He lived among us, and he died just like

00:50:45.650 --> 00:50:49.590
a man who was rejected by the world. And that

00:50:49.590 --> 00:50:53.219
was part of the... That was part of the plan

00:50:53.219 --> 00:50:56.000
of the Father insofar as it had something to

00:50:56.000 --> 00:51:05.119
do with the redemption of the human race. Don

00:51:05.119 --> 00:51:07.619
Don Scotus developed a theology around the spiritual

00:51:07.619 --> 00:51:11.380
insights of Francis Sinclair. With regard to

00:51:11.380 --> 00:51:15.059
the Incarnation, his view was that God so loved

00:51:15.059 --> 00:51:17.599
the world, he wanted to take on human flesh to

00:51:17.599 --> 00:51:23.820
live among humanity. to share divine life with

00:51:23.820 --> 00:51:26.780
humanity and all of creation through the incarnation,

00:51:27.119 --> 00:51:30.099
through Christ coming into this world. Now, this

00:51:30.099 --> 00:51:32.480
might seem a little different than what many

00:51:32.480 --> 00:51:35.400
of us grew up with. Many of us grew up with a

00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:39.559
view of the incarnation that's similar to Anselm,

00:51:39.559 --> 00:51:43.659
his theology of the atonement, that because humans

00:51:43.659 --> 00:51:47.260
sinned, there needed to be a debt paid, and the

00:51:47.260 --> 00:51:51.150
debt... was paid with the life of Jesus, the

00:51:51.150 --> 00:51:57.289
passion of Christ. Because this theology is so

00:51:57.289 --> 00:52:00.969
embedded in many of us, when we hear Scotus'

00:52:01.050 --> 00:52:03.170
theology, we think it's an innovation, we think

00:52:03.170 --> 00:52:05.789
it's new, we think it's different. But in fact,

00:52:05.809 --> 00:52:09.750
it was centuries old, centuries old, theologians

00:52:09.750 --> 00:52:13.650
who had argued for a positive anthropology, a

00:52:13.650 --> 00:52:17.000
positive reason for the incarnation. For example,

00:52:17.119 --> 00:52:21.079
Isaac of Syria, he died around 700. He argued

00:52:21.079 --> 00:52:24.380
that the birth of Christ was the most happiest

00:52:24.380 --> 00:52:27.639
thing that could possibly happen in the world.

00:52:27.900 --> 00:52:32.340
So to attribute it to human sin would be ridiculous.

00:52:33.039 --> 00:52:36.579
Instead, it revolves around God's love for all

00:52:36.579 --> 00:52:41.980
of creation. God became incarnate so that the

00:52:41.980 --> 00:52:46.980
world would become aware of God's love. As God

00:52:46.980 --> 00:52:53.519
dwelt among us. So for me, because it was an

00:52:53.519 --> 00:52:55.800
innovation to me, I didn't grow up with this

00:52:55.800 --> 00:52:57.820
kind of theology. In recent years, I've kept

00:52:57.820 --> 00:53:02.119
a nativity scene at my desk. Some people walk

00:53:02.119 --> 00:53:03.920
into my study and say, hey, it's not Christmas

00:53:03.920 --> 00:53:07.869
time. Why do you have a nativity set? for me

00:53:07.869 --> 00:53:10.550
it is a constant reminder that the incarnation

00:53:10.550 --> 00:53:14.829
is a part of my faith not just in december not

00:53:14.829 --> 00:53:18.369
just december 25th or in the january but all

00:53:18.369 --> 00:53:22.489
year round that the incarnation is evidence of

00:53:22.489 --> 00:53:25.730
god's love among us and this is a very franciscan

00:53:25.730 --> 00:53:35.190
approach i think that's what drew me to the franciscan

00:53:35.190 --> 00:53:41.099
tradition um is the it is so positive you know

00:53:41.099 --> 00:53:44.679
like usually usually in religion it's guilt and

00:53:44.679 --> 00:53:46.960
shame that gets you in the door because you're

00:53:46.960 --> 00:53:48.980
just trying to feel better about yourself and

00:53:48.980 --> 00:53:52.599
then that that ends up being some kind of manipulating

00:53:52.599 --> 00:53:55.820
force to keep bringing you back again however

00:53:55.820 --> 00:54:00.389
francis It's saying like, yeah, look outside,

00:54:00.590 --> 00:54:05.070
God's there. Yes, exactly. Listen to your dog

00:54:05.070 --> 00:54:06.869
whimpering right now, bringing it back to my

00:54:06.869 --> 00:54:10.750
dog. God's there. The overflowing, I know Bonaventure

00:54:10.750 --> 00:54:12.389
would go into this with the fountain fullness,

00:54:12.550 --> 00:54:16.530
this overflow of love and goodness that has been

00:54:16.530 --> 00:54:19.130
perpetually flowing from the very beginning of

00:54:19.130 --> 00:54:23.630
reality. It's everywhere. And we get to enter

00:54:23.630 --> 00:54:27.360
into that flow and experience it. That's a different

00:54:27.360 --> 00:54:32.039
kind of grace. And not to say that like we certainly

00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:37.619
the sacrament of confession is a great thing.

00:54:37.880 --> 00:54:41.800
And, you know, to talk about your wrongdoings

00:54:41.800 --> 00:54:45.119
and mistakes, like I'm not advocating for, you

00:54:45.119 --> 00:54:47.860
know, leaving that out of spirituality. However,

00:54:48.159 --> 00:54:51.000
I'm saying that in the Franciscan way, it feels

00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:55.489
deeper. to me that um it's not always the thing

00:54:55.489 --> 00:54:58.989
that brings you to the throne room you know like

00:54:58.989 --> 00:55:01.090
you you go there because it's so beautiful and

00:55:01.090 --> 00:55:04.809
loving exactly and yeah exactly i like that and

00:55:04.809 --> 00:55:06.750
that brings us to another element that you hit

00:55:06.750 --> 00:55:09.769
on in your book and that's the concept of relationality

00:55:09.769 --> 00:55:12.829
um concept sounds way too dry like again for

00:55:12.829 --> 00:55:14.849
francis and claire it was like lived experience

00:55:14.849 --> 00:55:18.809
um but relationality of course it comes out very

00:55:18.809 --> 00:55:22.429
clearly in francis's Canticle of the Creatures,

00:55:22.469 --> 00:55:24.909
which turns 800 years old this year. But also

00:55:24.909 --> 00:55:27.389
throughout his life, as you mentioned, through

00:55:27.389 --> 00:55:30.769
his relationship with creation, with lepers,

00:55:31.010 --> 00:55:35.190
with outsiders, people on the margins. And even

00:55:35.190 --> 00:55:38.530
in his approach to death, he called death sister

00:55:38.530 --> 00:55:43.679
death. Even that was relational. Crazy. But can

00:55:43.679 --> 00:55:46.639
you delve into this notion for me as you understand

00:55:46.639 --> 00:55:50.260
it as a Franciscan and how the Franciscan way

00:55:50.260 --> 00:55:52.739
kind of helps to elevate something that has perhaps

00:55:52.739 --> 00:55:56.099
been neglected in Christianity and in the church

00:55:56.099 --> 00:55:59.519
and has this intimate relationality of the universe

00:55:59.519 --> 00:56:02.860
and our partnership in it? Yeah. You know, I

00:56:02.860 --> 00:56:06.880
sometimes think that we try to separate divinity

00:56:06.880 --> 00:56:11.239
and humanity. We compartmentalize them. France

00:56:11.239 --> 00:56:15.500
did not. He united them. And that's why I think

00:56:15.500 --> 00:56:18.619
it's so attractive, because we suddenly find

00:56:18.619 --> 00:56:21.440
ourselves with God, not trying to figure out

00:56:21.440 --> 00:56:24.260
who God is and how we can find him. We are with

00:56:24.260 --> 00:56:28.280
him. He's within us. So that relationality with

00:56:28.280 --> 00:56:32.460
all of creation is just like a tight bud that

00:56:32.460 --> 00:56:36.239
opens up into a flower. It's that you don't even

00:56:36.239 --> 00:56:38.039
know what the flower is going to look like when

00:56:38.039 --> 00:56:41.239
it's only a bud. But when that opens up, it's

00:56:41.239 --> 00:56:45.539
just magnificent. And I think that Francis had

00:56:45.539 --> 00:56:50.099
special gifts from God. He was called from birth.

00:56:50.260 --> 00:56:53.920
He was a unique child. He was joyous and friendly

00:56:53.920 --> 00:56:57.400
and fun. And he had his sufferings and he had

00:56:57.400 --> 00:56:59.780
his traumatic moments and he had his failures.

00:57:00.199 --> 00:57:06.059
And he understood, you know, the lowly place

00:57:06.059 --> 00:57:09.849
he had. in humanity like everybody else. But

00:57:09.849 --> 00:57:13.849
in some ways, he was able to transcend from one

00:57:13.849 --> 00:57:16.650
level to another to another, and he kept on going.

00:57:16.909 --> 00:57:21.050
And God's grace and mercy called him, and he

00:57:21.050 --> 00:57:24.869
responded. And God poured more on Francis because

00:57:24.869 --> 00:57:28.309
Francis responded so beautifully. And God had

00:57:28.309 --> 00:57:32.630
a plan for Francis. He knew the impact Francis

00:57:32.630 --> 00:57:35.590
was going to have on society. I mean, you know,

00:57:35.590 --> 00:57:38.250
in his own time, he had so many followers. But

00:57:38.250 --> 00:57:40.469
it wasn't just that. It was that each follower

00:57:40.469 --> 00:57:43.469
was so imbued with the spirit of Francis that

00:57:43.469 --> 00:57:46.050
they all went out and they affected the world.

00:57:46.210 --> 00:57:49.869
And so relationality and the attraction of many

00:57:49.869 --> 00:57:53.269
people, I think Francis becomes for them the

00:57:53.269 --> 00:57:55.949
harbor. You know, they were drift on the ocean.

00:57:56.110 --> 00:57:58.230
There's nobody coming. They can't find their

00:57:58.230 --> 00:58:01.110
way back. There's no lighthouse. And suddenly

00:58:01.110 --> 00:58:05.500
they find. Francis, and he's the anchor. He's

00:58:05.500 --> 00:58:09.000
the shore they've been trying to find so that

00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:10.800
they could land their boat and start to live.

00:58:11.300 --> 00:58:14.400
And that life springs up in them, and they develop

00:58:14.400 --> 00:58:17.500
like a flower, really. They become kind. They

00:58:17.500 --> 00:58:22.559
become helpful. They become compassionate. And

00:58:22.559 --> 00:58:25.059
as they grow in love for Francis, Francis leads

00:58:25.059 --> 00:58:29.639
them right to the Father, right to Jesus. And

00:58:29.639 --> 00:58:33.380
the graces are what awaken us. It's not just

00:58:33.380 --> 00:58:36.900
the human person. It's the grace we receive from

00:58:36.900 --> 00:58:39.360
our opening ourselves to God in the way that

00:58:39.360 --> 00:58:41.940
Francis did that enables us to begin to grow

00:58:41.940 --> 00:58:44.900
and to develop and to become our own person on

00:58:44.900 --> 00:58:47.440
our own personal quest. But he's out there being

00:58:47.440 --> 00:58:51.900
our leader. Yeah, well, that brings me to something

00:58:51.900 --> 00:58:55.539
Francis said when he was dying. And he said,

00:58:55.639 --> 00:58:58.440
may Christ teach you what is yours to do. You

00:58:58.440 --> 00:59:02.039
summarize it as this, quote, each person is called

00:59:02.039 --> 00:59:05.380
by God to fulfill a particular mission, end quote.

00:59:05.480 --> 00:59:12.139
And the uniqueness of the Imago Dei in each person,

00:59:12.219 --> 00:59:14.969
and I know you... You're having conversations

00:59:14.969 --> 00:59:16.989
like this all the time with the students there

00:59:16.989 --> 00:59:19.730
at Alvernia. It is a liberating thing to awaken

00:59:19.730 --> 00:59:24.010
more to how deeply connected you already are,

00:59:24.090 --> 00:59:28.170
you know, to the divine all around. And then

00:59:28.170 --> 00:59:33.010
I think that this brings us into a sense of mission

00:59:33.010 --> 00:59:37.010
that because you realize who you are and you're

00:59:37.010 --> 00:59:40.070
loved and you are made in the image of God and

00:59:40.070 --> 00:59:44.219
you do have a unique purpose. In your quirks

00:59:44.219 --> 00:59:47.579
and uniqueness, your particularity is, Scotus

00:59:47.579 --> 00:59:50.840
would say, I mean, your hexaity, like these are

00:59:50.840 --> 00:59:54.400
things that God has gifted you with. It's part

00:59:54.400 --> 00:59:56.360
of you. I think the Franciscan tradition, it

00:59:56.360 --> 00:59:58.820
really brings forth that notion of the Imago

00:59:58.820 --> 01:00:01.579
Dei. And I'm curious how you approach that in

01:00:01.579 --> 01:00:06.679
your work today at Albernia. That's a great question

01:00:06.679 --> 01:00:10.280
because, Stephen, when I speak, I spoke about

01:00:10.280 --> 01:00:12.440
the search class and I speak to the students.

01:00:13.090 --> 01:00:16.730
every section of the search class. And what I

01:00:16.730 --> 01:00:20.889
do, not only do I share with them a little bit

01:00:20.889 --> 01:00:22.809
about the Bernadine history, Bernadine sisters,

01:00:23.030 --> 01:00:25.309
and how we were founded and so on, but the other

01:00:25.309 --> 01:00:28.210
half of it, at least, talks about the mission.

01:00:28.710 --> 01:00:31.489
And we have as our mission to learn, to love,

01:00:31.530 --> 01:00:34.949
to serve, which is the part of, it's right out

01:00:34.949 --> 01:00:37.369
of Bonaventure, you know, and it's a famous quote

01:00:37.369 --> 01:00:40.289
from Bonaventure about, you know, knowledge joined

01:00:40.289 --> 01:00:43.219
with love and all of that. I explain what that

01:00:43.219 --> 01:00:47.659
means. And then I show them all the little plaques

01:00:47.659 --> 01:00:50.199
that hang in the buildings on campus, especially

01:00:50.199 --> 01:00:53.380
the residence halls, Claire Hall, Francis Hall,

01:00:53.519 --> 01:00:55.820
Bonaventure Hall. And then we have some of the

01:00:55.820 --> 01:00:58.739
sisters named some of the halls for them. And

01:00:58.739 --> 01:01:01.380
then I talk about the San Damiano Cross and how

01:01:01.380 --> 01:01:03.280
that's in every building because of where it

01:01:03.280 --> 01:01:05.800
comes from and how it's important. But then I

01:01:05.800 --> 01:01:09.099
tell them, most importantly, is when you graduate

01:01:09.099 --> 01:01:12.219
from Alvernia, and I show them the seal. And

01:01:12.219 --> 01:01:16.059
on the seal in Latin, of course, is the saying,

01:01:16.179 --> 01:01:19.599
I have done my part. May Christ show you what

01:01:19.599 --> 01:01:22.460
is yours to do. And I said, would you graduate

01:01:22.460 --> 01:01:25.280
from Alvernia? And you've had all these courses

01:01:25.280 --> 01:01:27.960
and you've had the experience of listening to

01:01:27.960 --> 01:01:30.679
all the faculty prepare you for life. And you

01:01:30.679 --> 01:01:35.119
now know what the spirituality is the foundation

01:01:35.119 --> 01:01:38.159
point. What's the spiritual basis for this university

01:01:38.159 --> 01:01:42.360
was instilled in. was developed as part of the

01:01:42.360 --> 01:01:47.000
evolution of the university. The Bernadine Franciscan

01:01:47.000 --> 01:01:50.460
Sisters, with Francis as their patron, developed

01:01:50.460 --> 01:01:53.519
a model which would help students live a life

01:01:53.519 --> 01:01:57.340
that would give them not just wealth and fame

01:01:57.340 --> 01:01:59.760
and maybe even make a life, but would give them

01:01:59.760 --> 01:02:03.079
purpose and would help them find their way through

01:02:03.079 --> 01:02:06.500
troubled society and reach out to a God who loves

01:02:06.500 --> 01:02:09.780
them. Regardless of faith, regardless of no faith

01:02:09.780 --> 01:02:13.219
at all. And I make that very clear because we

01:02:13.219 --> 01:02:16.380
are always a Catholic university welcoming all

01:02:16.380 --> 01:02:20.260
faiths. And then I say to them, God will show

01:02:20.260 --> 01:02:23.539
you what is yours to do. And that is what your

01:02:23.539 --> 01:02:26.539
focus needs to be. Hold on to the hand of God.

01:02:27.179 --> 01:02:29.340
You know, and one time I was talking to a group

01:02:29.340 --> 01:02:31.880
of students and I said, just remember three things.

01:02:32.139 --> 01:02:36.940
You know, remember. I hope I get the three of

01:02:36.940 --> 01:02:42.599
them right. The first one was, never forget your

01:02:42.599 --> 01:02:48.039
roots. And the second one was, never turn your

01:02:48.039 --> 01:02:53.679
back on the poor. And the third was, never let

01:02:53.679 --> 01:02:58.280
go of the hand of God. And I said, if you just

01:02:58.280 --> 01:03:01.440
write that down and keep it as a bookmark. In

01:03:01.440 --> 01:03:03.579
a prayer book someplace or whenever you feel

01:03:03.579 --> 01:03:05.920
lonely or lost and you want to say a prayer to

01:03:05.920 --> 01:03:08.920
God, pull that out. If you just do those three

01:03:08.920 --> 01:03:12.260
things, you'll be okay. You'll find your way

01:03:12.260 --> 01:03:15.239
home. Thank you for your time, Sister Rosemary.

01:03:15.440 --> 01:03:17.719
This has been a real joy. Is there anything we

01:03:17.719 --> 01:03:19.699
left out or anything else you wanted to hit on

01:03:19.699 --> 01:03:22.900
before we conclude here? Maybe this is what I

01:03:22.900 --> 01:03:25.539
can share. I want the students to start a podcast

01:03:25.539 --> 01:03:29.159
through campus ministry. And that's where I'm

01:03:29.159 --> 01:03:33.199
working now. I think that students are hungry

01:03:33.199 --> 01:03:37.880
for God. They want to know more. They don't know

01:03:37.880 --> 01:03:39.940
how to ask the right, they're afraid to ask the

01:03:39.940 --> 01:03:43.320
question, to be labeled. It's like they talk

01:03:43.320 --> 01:03:46.059
to each other, but they're kind of stumbling

01:03:46.059 --> 01:03:48.760
around and they don't know. And I think that

01:03:48.760 --> 01:03:51.860
if we had students who understood certain things

01:03:51.860 --> 01:03:54.599
well, and they were running a podcast, like you're

01:03:54.599 --> 01:03:57.239
running this podcast with me, there would be

01:03:57.239 --> 01:04:00.400
such... It would be such a help for them spiritually.

01:04:02.179 --> 01:04:05.840
Yeah, yeah. I mean, the whole podcast phenomenon,

01:04:06.179 --> 01:04:08.320
as I mentioned to you in a previous call that

01:04:08.320 --> 01:04:11.559
we had was, I mean, it's kind of baffling, but

01:04:11.559 --> 01:04:15.019
it's what you said. I mean, I think people are,

01:04:15.199 --> 01:04:18.880
despite all the stats you see about people's

01:04:18.880 --> 01:04:22.460
connection to an organized religion, people are

01:04:22.460 --> 01:04:25.230
really hungry for depth. I've never said this

01:04:25.230 --> 01:04:27.489
on the podcast before, but this podcast is called

01:04:27.489 --> 01:04:31.389
Off the Page. And it's a multidimensional kind

01:04:31.389 --> 01:04:35.309
of meaning because, you know, typically we think

01:04:35.309 --> 01:04:39.309
of when you read God's word, and this goes back

01:04:39.309 --> 01:04:41.550
to our mutual friend, Father Dan Riley, typically

01:04:41.550 --> 01:04:44.130
you think that, okay, that just pertains to scripture,

01:04:44.289 --> 01:04:47.449
reading God's word. And it certainly does. However,

01:04:47.690 --> 01:04:50.829
that also takes us off the page into the world,

01:04:50.849 --> 01:04:55.039
as Francis did, to read the world. before us

01:04:55.039 --> 01:04:59.159
and to enjoy this reading and to get lost in

01:04:59.159 --> 01:05:02.239
this reading and so it's kind of a play on words

01:05:02.239 --> 01:05:04.659
with also we're interviewing a lot of authors

01:05:04.659 --> 01:05:07.139
so we're going off the page with them our ultimate

01:05:07.139 --> 01:05:10.559
hope is that at least mine is that it guides

01:05:10.559 --> 01:05:13.800
listeners off the page in their own life to go

01:05:13.800 --> 01:05:17.800
out in the world and open up to the God that

01:05:17.800 --> 01:05:21.380
is right before them all along, wanting to, as

01:05:21.380 --> 01:05:23.920
you said, hold their hand. So as we conclude

01:05:23.920 --> 01:05:26.699
here, I was curious, and if nothing comes to

01:05:26.699 --> 01:05:28.980
mind, that's okay. But toward the end of your

01:05:28.980 --> 01:05:32.099
book, I loved that you included a number of beautiful

01:05:32.099 --> 01:05:35.420
prayers that are important to the Franciscan

01:05:35.420 --> 01:05:39.090
tradition. So as we bring this to a close, I

01:05:39.090 --> 01:05:41.969
was wondering if you would mind either reciting

01:05:41.969 --> 01:05:44.630
or reading a prayer that means a lot to you.

01:05:44.929 --> 01:05:48.650
And if you don't mind, before you read it, could

01:05:48.650 --> 01:05:50.849
you tell us why it's so important to you on a

01:05:50.849 --> 01:05:53.690
personal level? You don't mind if I use the book

01:05:53.690 --> 01:05:56.949
as a prompt? That's fine. It's your book. It's

01:05:56.949 --> 01:06:00.590
my book, yes. The prayers, you know, it's interesting

01:06:00.590 --> 01:06:03.789
how I found things to put into the book. For

01:06:03.789 --> 01:06:07.210
example, I did a little piece on... Pope Francis,

01:06:07.429 --> 01:06:12.789
I just think that this man is so wonderful. He's

01:06:12.789 --> 01:06:15.190
just a gift to humanity at the time we needed

01:06:15.190 --> 01:06:19.250
him. And I didn't know what I would say, but

01:06:19.250 --> 01:06:21.969
I just started to write it. And it all just came

01:06:21.969 --> 01:06:25.250
out just the way I hardly even changed a letter

01:06:25.250 --> 01:06:30.750
in the whole expression of it. But that's sometimes,

01:06:30.989 --> 01:06:33.849
you know, it just sometimes something hits you

01:06:33.849 --> 01:06:37.960
very significantly. There is a prayer that we

01:06:37.960 --> 01:06:42.559
sing as Bernadine Franciscan Sisters. It's called

01:06:42.559 --> 01:06:47.519
Tata Pulchra. And it's all pure. That's what

01:06:47.519 --> 01:06:52.159
it means. Tata Pulchra. Beautiful. You are all

01:06:52.159 --> 01:06:57.940
fair, O Mary. You are all fair. And the original

01:06:57.940 --> 01:07:02.780
stain is not in you. You are the glory of Jerusalem.

01:07:04.170 --> 01:07:08.369
You are the joy of Israel. You are the honor

01:07:08.369 --> 01:07:12.489
of our people. You are the advocate of sinners.

01:07:13.449 --> 01:07:18.349
O Mary, Virgin most prudent, Mother most merciful,

01:07:18.469 --> 01:07:22.849
pray for us. Intercede for us with our Lord Jesus

01:07:22.849 --> 01:07:27.510
Christ. In your conception, O Virgin, you are

01:07:27.510 --> 01:07:32.329
immaculate. Pray for us to the Father. whose

01:07:32.329 --> 01:07:37.550
son you have born. And we sing that prayer in

01:07:37.550 --> 01:07:41.409
Latin every Saturday because our congregation,

01:07:41.630 --> 01:07:45.809
as with all Franciscans, we are very devoted

01:07:45.809 --> 01:07:50.289
to the mother of God. And so that prayer has

01:07:50.289 --> 01:07:52.610
a special part of the book and it's especially

01:07:52.610 --> 01:07:54.789
in my heart. Beautiful. Well, thank you for sharing

01:07:54.789 --> 01:07:57.070
it with us. And thank you again for your time,

01:07:57.190 --> 01:07:59.349
Sister Rosemary. This was a joy. It was a joy

01:07:59.349 --> 01:08:06.320
to be with you too, Stephen. Once again, that

01:08:06.320 --> 01:08:09.260
was Sister Rosemary Stutz. Her book, Franciscan

01:08:09.260 --> 01:08:12.199
Field Guide, is available on our website, Amazon,

01:08:12.460 --> 01:08:15.920
or wherever books are sold. If you feel inclined,

01:08:16.199 --> 01:08:18.539
please consider leaving a review of this podcast

01:08:18.539 --> 01:08:21.600
or visiting the donation link in the show notes

01:08:21.600 --> 01:08:24.720
to help us continue to hopefully create content

01:08:24.720 --> 01:08:27.800
like this that accompanies you on your spiritual

01:08:27.800 --> 01:08:30.710
journey. Thanks again to Sister Rosemary. to

01:08:30.710 --> 01:08:33.390
Dr. Darlene Prides, and thanks as well to Father

01:08:33.390 --> 01:08:36.149
Cyprian Concilio for providing the intro and

01:08:36.149 --> 01:08:39.189
outro music for this episode. This is Stephen

01:08:39.189 --> 01:08:42.529
Copeland signing off. Peace and all good.