Welcome to Off the Page, it's great to be with
you. Today's guest is Sister Rosemary Stetz,
a Bernadine Franciscan sister who recently authored
the book Franciscan Field Guide, People, Places,
Practices, and Prayers. Sister Rosemary has served
as Vice President for Mission at Alvernia University
in Redding, Pennsylvania. and she was a member
of the faculty in the Department of English and
Communications. Her book, Franciscan Field Guide,
is the focus of this conversation. It's a really
wonderful book, almost like a Franciscanism 101,
with so many on -ramps to different aspects of
the tradition. I loved hearing Sister Rosemary's
story, discussing her book, and I found her passion
for higher education and the love she has for
her students to be really inspiring. Our Franciscan
Lectio segments today, our reflection segments
that we began implementing with the last episode,
they are brought to you by Darlene Prides. Dr.
Darlene Prides is Franciscan Media's acquisitions
editor and a scholar on lay Franciscans. I feel
like I learn something new from her every week
working with her at Franciscan Media, and I'm
happy that you get the chance to learn from her
this episode as well. So without further ado.
Here is Sister Rosemary Stetz. Sister Rosemary
Stetz, welcome to Off the Page. Thank you, Stephen.
Happy to be here. Yeah, thanks for joining us.
I want to get into your wonderful book, The Franciscan
Field Guide. It's a concise but comprehensive
overview of the Franciscan tradition. But first,
can you talk to me a little bit about your own
personal journey? What was your upbringing like?
And how did you find yourself entering religious
life? That's a lot of territory, but I'll start.
I was, I'm Catholic, of course, raised Catholic,
and I attended parochial school. And as a child,
I always loved writing. And I enjoyed, and I
had a very good teacher, Sister, Bernadine Sister,
in the seventh grade. I'll never forget her,
Sister Lillian, who taught me the skill of writing.
I don't know if it was. if it impacted the class
as much as it did to me. But it just made so
much sense how to bring out ideas and put them
on paper. Then I, of course, I entered the congregation
after high school, and I had my education through
the sisters. And I taught elementary school for
a few years, which was not a good fit for me.
I love the children, but I don't know. I just
wasn't, it wasn't my... It wasn't my level. You
know, I kept thinking, I think understanding
what I'm saying. So then, and also the range
of subjects. I hated math. I didn't like science.
I was not interested in some of those areas.
So by the time I was about 28, I had already
finished graduate school. And I was assigned
to the university in Reading, which is the sister
sponsor of the university, Albernia. At that
time, it was Albernia College. And my field was...
well, it was English and communications. So I
had the yearbook and I had the student newspaper
and I taught courses and I had a wonderful mentor.
She was the academic dean, Sister Pacelli, renowned
in the congregation as a brilliant woman. She
was actually an actress before she entered. She
had planned to go toward a degree in theater
and try her luck in theater. Broadway, maybe.
But she mentored me and she would check my syllabus
and she would offer ideas. Her classes were packed
to the gills. And I kind of modeled myself on
what her style was. So that's how I got my start.
And writing always was part of my nature. I could,
I journaled all the time, kept a diary. And I,
so that's, that's where my domain, you could
say, is. Yeah, now some listening may not be
familiar with your religious order. Can you explain
to listeners what a Bernadine sister is? Okay,
that I know. I am a Bernadine Franciscan sister.
Our official title is Bernadine Sisters of the
Third Order of St. Francis. And just by way of
a comment, the Third Order is the largest Franciscan
order in the world. It's all, the third order
is both regular, meaning myself, you know, we
live at a convent, we take public vows and we
live the vows, or it could be secular. Secular
Franciscans are men and women who live in the
world and they have a job, they have a family,
but they are committed to the Franciscan way
of life and they love that life. Just as an aside,
my mother was a secular Franciscan, as was her
mother. And my paternal father's brother was
a secular Franciscan, and he was in the Second
World War, and he was killed in action. But when
they sent the tags back to my grandmother in
the little box, you know how they would do that
after, you know, when they buried the body and
they sent the tags back? In there was the cord
that he wore around his waist that symbolized
his commitment. to the third order ideals. So
the Bernadine Franciscan sisters follow the third
order rule of St. Francis, which is a rule that,
you know, is built on the three vows of poverty,
chastity, and obedience. And we are also an active
order. So we live a life in common, but we have,
like, I work at this university in Reading, Alberta.
I work along with other sisters in campus ministry,
but I had also been a faculty member. And there
was a period of time where I served even in administration.
So it's actually as a Bernadine sister, you were
sent wherever they wanted you to be. And you
go and God gives you the help that you need to
fulfill that mission. You talked about your journey
and your connection with Alvernia University.
My understanding is that the idea for you to
write this beautiful book came in some way from
your experiences, interactions with students
and faculty at Alvernia. Can you describe the
story there and talk about where exactly this
book came from within you? Yes, this book is,
I mean, I never said to myself, I think I'll
write a book about St. Francis. I'll call it
this. It'll be this, you know, and then. It wrote
itself because it called me. What happened in
terms of the text itself is, well, I was working
at Albany at that time. I was already a faculty
member as well as part of the administration.
And some of the roles I had were to integrate
the Franciscan spirit into the university because
at that point. Many of the sisters who had been
teachers were now retiring and moving. They had
health issues. I was the youngest probably the
whole time I was there. And then at the same
time, more and more lay teachers were being hired.
And so the administration said, I talked it over
with the president and our congregation, which
sponsors this university, that we need to, as
the sisters disappear and the lay... instructors
and teachers and professors come in. They're
good teachers in their discipline, but they don't
have the spiritual background. They don't have
the religious sense of a Franciscan university.
So I took on, on my own, you know, to meet new
faculty coming in to explain to them our mission.
What is our mission? And how do we live it? The
mission for Alvernia, to learn, to love, to serve.
You can stop any student on this campus and they
can tell you that. And it was really a lay president
who was a deacon in the Catholic Church. He was
the first lay person after his sister to become
president. And his idea was to, he wanted to
put the San Damiano cross, which is the Franciscan
cross of Christ from Italy, from the Middle Ages,
in every classroom. And we did. And from there,
we began to tell a story of St. Francis to students
and to the new faculty coming in. And after four
years, every faculty member knew the story. And
then we began to invite the students to share,
you know, at different times, the story of St.
Francis as part of the curriculum. Or the faculty
member would invite me in as a speaker, and I
would just do some little thing on the Franciscan
tradition. So it began to grow this way. So at
some point, I said to myself, you know, I think
that I want to leave something behind if I move
on. And so I was going to create a kind of small
chapbook, you know, that they could carry or
that could be distributed at the beginning of
school at the academic year with terms and words
and sayings and ideas and all the things about
the three orders and all of that. So I started
to put something together and At that time, I
took a sabbatical. It was only one semester.
I had the opportunity to go to St. Bonaventure.
And I had two courses. I think I put this in
something that I sent to you, maybe. I took two
courses from Michael Blastic, who was a tremendous
professor, steeped in the tradition. And he spoke
at many AFCU conferences, and they were always
a success. I asked him if he would read. So I
was taking notes in his class, and then I was
building the content for the book. And I asked
him to read it, and he critiqued it, and he gave
excellent suggestions. And then I was putting
it together. Sister Margaret Carney at that time
was president, and I was telling her about the
text. And she said, oh, that's a great idea.
We have over 20 schools that are Franciscan.
We can use that in other schools. I said, oh,
okay, okay. Never thinking that that would be
something that I would pursue. I also have to
give credit to a colleague here, Sister Roberta
McKelvey, who at that time was at Bonaventure.
And she then was back at Albernia. And she was
editor of The Chord. And she did a tremendous
job putting it together with me. We were in the
middle of a general chapter, and we were doing
the editing in between sessions. But I met the
deadline. and it got published. I know a lot
of people who are spiritually searching, a lot
of either recovering Catholics or recovering
Protestants who are perhaps calloused or a little
bit frustrated with organized religion. However,
they find themselves not wanting to let go of
the Christian tradition, and they still feel
like there's something there. And Franciscanism,
to me, It can be that on -ramp for people because,
I mean, Francis, of course, was this kind of
guy on the margins, Claire as well. They never
turned their back on the church. They never turned
their back on organized religion. However, it
seems as if they were going places that no one
else would go, perhaps. And so all that to say,
I mean, most people just know St. Francis from
birdbaths. I know Richard Morris talked about
that. Perhaps a lot of people have not even heard
of St. Clair. And that's what I love about this
book is that it's like a Franciscanism 101, in
a sense. And I'm just wondering, how would you
explain the Franciscan tradition to perhaps a
student or a faculty member that you mentioned,
or a listener to this podcast who is curious
to learn more about this expansive tradition
that you write about in this book? Well, you
know, as you were speaking, Stephen, the idea,
why is Francis so attractive? Why do people gravitate
to him? What's his draw? I remember this struck
me, not just necessarily with writing the book,
but that another name for Francis in the Middle
Ages, I guess, was they called him Altair Christus,
another Christ. I think the draw for Francis
the draw that he pulls people to himself is that
he was like Christ. I mean, in his lifetime,
there were 5 ,000 men who became Franciscan.
5 ,000. I mean, that's, you know, they just were.
Now, of course, it was at a time when the church
was not, you know, they were not exemplary. They
did not have, they did not reach out to the people.
They didn't care, really. I mean, they were the
clergy, and they were the hierarchy, and they
were preserving the whole tradition handed down
from Christ. But maybe they didn't understand
what God would have wanted from them, but they
spoke Latin. I remember reading one part where
in the church, there would be a huge platform,
and on that platform would be the altar. And
all the clergy would be up there and they would
be celebrating the liturgy. And they would be
talking, you know, in Latin. And the people on
the floor, 25 steps lower, could hardly hear
them, could not understand them. They made no
effort to communicate anything to them. And that's
why Francis had such a hard time with the clergy.
They wanted to brush him out, you know, brush
him away. It's like an annoying fly. You know,
we know what we're doing. had no connection with
God. They were like lost sheep, and Francis was
like their shepherd. I think that he drew people
through his authenticity, but he was also charismatic.
I mean, he was a short little guy from what I
hear, but he had a great voice. He sang, he expressed
himself, and he was a healer. He healed people.
He talked to animals. When I talk to the students,
I tell them some of these stories, and their
eyes are like big saucers. I tell them our mascot
here in Albany is the Wolf of Gubbio. And I tell
them the story of the Wolf of Gubbio and how
Francis tamed the wolf. And then there's one
little piece that I remember. I think it might
have been Michael Blasting who gave us that story.
There was an earthquake in Italy and the church
crumbled and they were repairing it. And in the
basement, when they were digging out, excavating
and enlarging, they found hidden in the basement,
at the bottom of the basement, the bones of a
wolf. Really? I did not know that. Yes. Wow.
And when I tell that story to the students, they
look at me like a light goes on in their eyes.
He really did talk to animals. Birds would be
chirping and they would say, be quiet now because
I'm talking to the people. They would shut up
and they'd start chirping. I mean, these are
the stories, these little flowers of St. Francis
that sometimes the academics or maybe clergy,
I don't know, would look down on because they're
all such cute little stories. There's depth there
that we have to recognize. There's real depth.
And if they open their eyes and listen to what
he's saying and what he did. I mean, he walked
through the town and people walked right after
him. They were magnetized. They followed him
like a sheep would follow a shepherd. We are
about to move into our first reflection moment
where we pause, consider. and contemplate the
contents of what a guest has said. And again,
guiding us through our reflections today is Dr.
Darlene Prides. Francis of Assisi is one of the
most popular saints of our Catholic tradition.
He's popular among Catholics, among Christians
of all stripes, and even among people of other
faith or people who do not hold a faith. So we
have to ask ourselves, why is he so popular?
What is it about Francis that makes him appeal
to so many different people? I think, for me,
one of the most attractive parts of Francis's
identity and his way of being is his capacity
to be deeply present. Present with other people,
deeply present with all of creation, and even
deeply present with himself. Now, this might
sound, pretty easy to do, but in our very fast
-paced, distracted world in which we live, it
might be something simple but not easy to be
deeply present with one another and even with
ourselves. I'm going to start off with my favorite
image, and that is the birdbath Francis, because
after all, especially scholars like to poke fun
at the birdbath Francis as if it's superficial
or not serious enough. I don't have a birdbath,
but I do keep a little statue of Francis on my
desk. Why? Because I love the gentle look that
he offers the birds in his hands. And I'm a big
fan of birdbaths, actually. Again, I'm going
to ask why. And that is because when birds congregate
on a birdbath, it actually draws my attention
in. I actually look at them more deeply. I become
delighted by the way they wash themselves in
the water of the birdbath. I'm more deeply present
with birds when they're in the birdbath, when
I can focus on their activities there. So I think
something about the quality of Francis's presence
with other creatures, even depicted in a birdbath,
I think there's a deep lesson for us. Do we actually
see what's in front of us? Are we actually present
with what's in front of us? I'll admit, sometimes
I need a tool. And for me, a birdbath is a great
tool because I'm fascinated by the birds when
they come to the birdbath. So I'm all about putting
aside the disparaging comments about Francis
and the birdbath, but I would like to move on
from that quality of presence. to some of the
stories that are told about Francis, and I think
that's another compelling aspect of Francis of
Assisi. Sure, there's a lot of theology that
gets developed around Francis and Franciscan
spirituality, but Francis himself was pretty
simple. He wasn't a theologian. We know about
him through stories and storytelling, and how
we tell these stories, how we enter into the
stories closely enough so that we can capture
the essence or the meaning of the stories, that's
a spiritual practice that I like to live into
and have been developing in my own faith journey.
So I'd like to start off with the story of the
Wolf of Gubbio. It's a relatively popular story
about the people of the town of Gubbio who were
terrorized by a wolf that was attacking their
livestock and even attacking their children.
They wanted to seek revenge and kill the wolf.
You can see even how I'm telling the story, there's
a lot of energy and a lot of volatile energy
in part in this story. We're stymied in their
efforts to kill the wolf. And in fact, they sought
another way to approach this challenging situation
and sought Francis to bring in a mode of peacemaking.
He had a reputation for brokering peace. So they
called him to town. He arrived and he heard their
stories and he sensed their fear. He sensed their
agitation. And he sensed their anger. He observed
all of this. He was present to it. But he didn't
react. to it he didn't respond in like manner
to it he himself did not become volatile itself
i mean i think is enough of the story for us
to enter into how often do we get captured in
by the energy of a group of people around us
or even a single individual do we allow someone
else's anger to affect us and make us angry In
this story, Francis moves into the woods to find
the wolf, putting aside the people of Gubbio
for a while. He eventually, again, this is legend,
so as the legend goes, Francis finds the wolf
in the woods, and he approaches the wolf gently,
tenderly, so that he can observe the wolf and
be deeply present. And he asks the wolf, why
are you doing this? Out of curiosity, he asks,
why are you scaring the people of Gubbio? Why
are you attacking their livestock? Why are you
attacking their children? Again, that just causes
us to stop and pause for a moment. How often
do we cultivate curiosity around someone else's
anger or around someone else's behavior? Can
we stop and ask why? Other than being drawn into
perhaps volatile or negative energy. So again,
as the legend goes, the wolf responded by saying,
I've lost my pack. I'm all alone. I'm hungry.
I need to eat. I'm afraid. All perfectly legitimate
reasons for sustaining his own life, right? So
Francis brokers a deal and says, what if the
people of Gubbio fed you, offered you a place
to live and fed you? Would you stop attacking
them? And according to legend, the wolf said
yes. So Francis and the wolf walk back into the
town of Gubbio, and you can imagine the shock
of the people when they walk into town. But Francis
explains and asks the people of Gubbio, would
you be willing to feed the wolf? And when they
agree, according to legend, the people and the
wolf of Gubbio lived in peace for the next three
years until the wolf died. This story for me
points out so many different simple but maybe
not easy features of navigating conflict. Most
of all, deep listening to the issues involved
and cultivating a sense of curiosity around those
issues to ask, to investigate, and to consider
a solution that is other than detrimental or
violent. Certainly we need skills like this today
where we can enter into a volatile crowd or even
enter into a conversation with one volatile person
and rather than receive that volatility or anger
ourselves, listen deeply and respond with curiosity.
That reminds me of a great quote in your book.
You write, for Franciscans, the focus or gaze
is not upward, but rather outward toward ordinary
human life. Can you explain for our listeners
what you mean by this and how the Franciscan
way opens this up for us? Okay. I think I take
it from the example of the Lord Jesus, who referred
to, of course, God, our Father. and taught the
Lord's Prayer, and understood that our real destiny
is to return to the Father. But he knew that
it was not going to be just me doing that. I'm
not going to go myself. He wanted others to go
with him. And so that's why he was sent. God
sent him to bring the world, to bring all of
creation back into the arms, the loving arms
of the Father. The whole sense, I mean, there's
just, it could be so much to talk about. It's
like a million threads, but you have to bring
them all together and weave it so that you get
the story right. But from the beginning of time,
I mean, you know, wherever we are in the Bible
or wherever we are in the evolution of human
life, at some point, men and women began to look
for something above their just survival. And
as that... began to grow. They felt a longing
to know more, and there was an emptiness. So
by the time we come to the Middle Ages, the church,
which should have been feeding that hunger, was
missing the boat. They hadn't gotten it yet.
But Francis, in his humility and in his simplicity,
God chose him. God chose him to be the one that
would be the man who would change the world.
And he had his own trial. He was a rich man.
He was a rich young man, wealthy, had a wonderful
life, you know, ran around. His father gave him
everything he wanted. He was his favorite. And
he wanted to go to war. Sure, you can go to war.
I want a horse. Here's the horse. Here's the
saddle. Here's everything you need. And of course,
they lost the battle and he was captured and
he almost died. And that one year, his father
had to ransom him. And it took a while. But by
the time he came out, he knew, I'm on the wrong
path. I have to go the other way. And then you
have those stories about, you know, he was repulsed
by lepers and he forced himself to get down off
the horse and go over and kiss the leper. I'm
getting a little bit of a drift here, but there's
a course we have at Alvernia. It's called Search.
I have mentioned it to you before. Stephen, it's
a course on how students prepare to get really
serious about college education. And I teach,
I speak to every single class of students who
are all freshmen. Maybe there would be about
300 students over a range of 25 classes in a
semester. And I give the same thing to every
class, but it's all based on the Franciscan tradition.
And when I tell them some of these stories, They
just hang on every word. I can see that in them.
There is someone underpinning all this with the
education. And they recognize a culture at Alvernia
that is really unique. There is a spirit here.
There's a kindness here. There is a searching
sense of what's my destiny and what can I do
with my life? Not just my degree, go out and
get a job. What's my life going to be about?
So I think that this is how Francis impacted
people. Yeah. That's the key to his popularity.
Yep. Yeah. And I mean, you're mentioning like
the young people who are the who interact with
every day who are spiritually hungry. And I mean,
to go back to one of the visuals you gave about
people in a church in the Middle Ages, either
unable to understand the Latin in some places
or unable to hear. Unable to hear the liturgy.
And I think that's the way a lot of people feel.
And yet, here are figures like Francis coming
along and saying like, hey, look out at the world.
Christ is there. You know, look out at the person
you rejected. Christ is there. Look at your pet.
You know, my dog's on the other end of this camera.
Like, Christ is there. And this very human person
inviting people to see. And to realize that the
church is everywhere while also not turning his
back on the church. I mean, it's the ultimate
non -dualistic move. It's brilliant. But all
that to say, I'm wondering, with the young people
you interact with every day and these people
who are hungry, spiritually searching, how do
you believe that the Franciscan way can help
to rebuild the church today? That's an excellent
question. Actually, Stephen, that's something
that I pray about a lot. You know, Francis, I
think Francis shows us how. Francis never intended
to, you know, he didn't wake up when his father
ransomed him from the prison and he came home
and he was like walking around and rift in the
city and his buddies would say, come on, Francis,
let's let's go drinking. You know, let's go down
to the local bar. No, no, not tonight. You know,
you know, they could. What happened to you? Well,
they. chopped it up to being in prison or you
know he maybe his health isn't great or whatever
but francis had um he was a chosen soul francis
was authentically uh and wrapped and you know
attracted to god and and and he just grew and
grew and god poured and poured more graces into
his soul and the more he received from god the
more he gave out and so francis became um He
affected society just by his person. And all
he wanted to do was live like Christ. And that's
why, we'll go back to the term I used in the
beginning, an alter Christus. I want to be you
on this earth. And just as Jesus walked along
and chose one and chose another, and then they
all started to meet the people, and he began
to tell them about God and the Father and his
love for the world. That's what Frances did.
And more and more men, and then Claire, Claire
of Assisi, who watched him from the tower of
her home and fled to him in the middle of the
night. You know, they were romanticized. She
eloped to meet Frances. Well, she ran away from
home is what she did because they had her all
lined up to marry some count or something. And
she herself was a religious soul. She was a spiritual
woman. She was only 14 or 15 years old, but she
knew she belonged to God, nobody else. But then
women joined her. Her sister, her mother, they
joined her. But she became the cloistered branch.
That's the second order. Francis is the first.
She's the second. And then all the women who
were either married or single or wanted to stay
in the world and live a Franciscan way of life
became the third order. And that's where Francis
really found, why we say he founded the three
orders, because all three of them flow from his
own spirituality. Well, you keep bringing it
back to something that I think is really important.
I mean, you hear a word like Franciscan and it
feels so obscure if you've never heard it before.
It's like, what does that mean? Like, you know,
don't we all, if you're a Christian, don't you
just want to follow? christ like why bring francis
claire into this francis and claire that they
make it simple and they're the way they followed
christ is just so counter -cultural and profound
anyway you keep bringing it back to that and
i appreciate that because like i i really think
and that was my understanding is that that was
the appeal then too is that i mean they're They're
living in a way that perhaps had been neglected
or forgotten in how people perceived what it
meant to follow Christ. What I think is, Francis
was like new on the scene, sort of. He had a
unique appeal. His way of walking through life
and his way of honoring God and his interaction
with people, his connection with nature. The
Benedictines, they existed. The Dominicans, they
existed, all at the same time. There is a charism
for every congregation. I like to think about
it sort of like nature. You have daisies, and
you have roses, and you have plain old grass.
And some people will prefer a daisy. I remember
going to a friend's wedding, and she carried
a bouquet of daisies in. Another friend would
have a bouquet of roses. But it's what you find
attractive, what draws you. God gives you the
vocation, and God draws you through the vocation.
So the author is God. And just as God has created
this wildly diverse universe, starting with our
world, which is complex and beautiful, and so
many different animals, and so many different
plants. different people and different approaches
to the way they live their life. That's the way
it was with God and all of nature. And so I think
Francis was the right man at the right time in
God's plan. From Sister Rosemary's book, there's
a beautiful sentence that I'd like to talk about.
It goes, for Franciscans, the focus or gaze is
not upward, but rather outward toward ordinary
human life. Our gaze, our focus is not upward,
but outward toward one another, towards all of
creation, towards all of our fellow humans. What
does this mean for my faith and your faith? I
think for Franciscans, this means that We enter
into ongoing conversion by being in relationship
with one another. There's a famous phrase that
says, if you think you're enlightened, go spend
a week with your family. Well, Franciscan spirituality
is something like that, in that our family members,
our friends, people that we live in community
with, they're our best teachers because they
are the ones that we have to live with and manage
our our daily lives with. They're also the people
whose hands our ongoing conversion rests. There's
a great example of this in Francis of Assisi's
talking about his encounters with the lepers.
His ongoing conversion was really sought after,
was really developed within relationship with
lepers. We know that as a young man he reviled
the lepers. He made fun of them. He ridiculed
them. He made nasty gestures at them. He couldn't
stand the sight or the smell of them. He would
run away, not even the sight of them. He wouldn't
get that close. He'd run away before he could
see a leper. And yeah, we know that in time there
was something that changed in him. He turned
around and encountered a leper and was willing
to face him face to face, eye to eye. In time,
he lived among the lepers, served them, and they
served him. In what way? Perhaps they didn't
prepare his meals for him. Maybe they did. But
by being there, by being present, he... cultivated
this capacity to be present with those very people
he had reviled. So the lesson here is for us
to ask ourselves, who are the lepers in our own
lives? Who's the leper in my life? Who are those
people that I've run away from, I don't want
to engage in, I don't even want to look at? And
is it possible to develop the capacity to be
present? to be curious about their livelihood,
about who they are, why they think the way they
do, why they do things the way they do. And in
that developing relationship, is it possible
to see our own opening of heart, our own ongoing
conversion developing? I think this is at the
heart of the Franciscan spiritual movement. And
really is at the heart of this phrase that Sister
Rosemary brings forward. For Franciscans, the
focus and gaze is not upward, but rather outward
toward ordinary human life. It's in our relationships
with one another that our conversions develop,
our faith develops and strengthens, and we become
more vulnerable and open -hearted. in the process.
One aspect of Franciscan spirituality that you
write about in your book that I wanted to dive
into for a little bit is the idea of poverty.
And of course, for Francis and Claire, it wasn't
just an idea. I mean, it was a lived reality.
And I liked your phrasing in the book. You described
Franciscan poverty as a, quote, poverty of being.
What do you mean by this phrase? And how do you
think adopting a poverty of being can help each
of us today? Christian or non -Christian, Franciscan
or non -Franciscan? I think there's something
valuable here for each of us. When I say poverty
of being, I want to use that expression and kind
of match it up to how we live poverty. And so
when we say You know, today, there's poor people
everywhere and they're miserable. And that shouldn't
be because they're being deprived. Genuine poverty
is a spiritual experience that we recognize that
we are nothing, that we are only alive because
of the mercy and goodness and overwhelming transformative
love of God. That God from all eternity wanted
me, wanted you, wanted every human being to be
born, to be born and to live and to have a life
of service to the world and to God and to have
a role to play, to have something to contribute.
You know, I talk to the students always about
what is your mission in life? And they'll say,
well, that's your job, isn't it? You are the
mission director. But no, you also have a mission.
And what will that be? And how will you live
it? And how will you know what it is until you
find it? How do you discern? What is discernment?
How do you do discernment? There's a million
ways that you could go with that. But I also
think poverty of being is, among all else, a
yearning to be like Christ in his poverty. And
what does that mean? Not that he didn't have
a mother -father food on the table. His poverty
was that he left the glory of the father's side.
He was the son of God, the pinnacle of anything
that any human person would want to have, that
he was sent by the father to the earth to become
a human person. to live among us, to experience
our life. But for what purpose? So that we, being
transformed by Christ, could go back to the Father
and have the same status as Christ with the Father.
Like his humanity comes down to our humanity,
and our humanity goes back up to the Father after
death to be with him in his humanity. One with
the Father within the Trinity. And that to me
was, I didn't know how else to explain it except
to say, you know, it's from within. Yeah, because
I think when some people hear that word like
poverty, like you mentioned, I mean, real physical
poverty, like that's an evil, you know, like
people. People should have their basic needs
met, especially in this country. Yes. I mean,
with all of our wealth and opportunities here.
However, you're talking about something else.
If I'm hearing you correctly, poverty of being
can actually be liberating. Well, absolutely.
Because then you stop chasing things. Then you
stop trying to grasp at things. Then you stop
trying to control your life. You mentioned that
trajectory of the divine, God coming to us and
then divinization, you know, us becoming more
like God. This kenosis, this kenotic kind of
movement of letting go, self -emptying. For me
in my own life, it began to make more, like Franciscan
poverty began to make more sense to me when I
began to put it in the context of what are the
things in my life I'm trying so desperately to
control, okay? It's time to let that go and trust
that I am becoming more like Christ in this letting
go, that something is happening on a deeper level
for me. My heart is being formed. My mind is
being formed. And for me, that's like one element
of Franciscan poverty. Do you have any thoughts
there? I think actually you're paraphrasing what
I said to Stephen almost. Almost better than
I said it to. I don't know about that. It's coming
from you as a person searching, you know, and
I'm a person searching, too. But my understanding
of it is it's not always I mean, that's not when
I entered and took the vows for the first time.
That's not what I thought I was. I knew poverty.
I was going to give up, you know, having fancy
clothes because. At that time, we were wearing
habits and veils and we were, you know, it was
all the traditional religious lifestyle. But
poverty, I didn't mind it. It wasn't something
that I mourned over. You know, oh, I can never
have my bike back. You know, I can't ride. You
know, I can't. I don't have money to. I remember
riding the train from Philadelphia back to our
mother house here in Reading, and I didn't even
have a dime in my pocket to make a phone call.
if I needed to. And I mean, those days are long
gone, of course, but, you know, and it never
bothered me. But again, I was young and everybody
else was doing it. And so it was my lot to do
it too. But for me, poverty as chastity, as obedience
has been a struggle and a joy, has been a debt
greater for understanding of its purpose and
meaning. And as I see it matched to how Christ
lived, obedient to the Father, humble and poor,
and a total love for humanity and all of its
sinfulness and in all of its glory. And so, you
know, each time I think about, you know, I make
retreats and I go, you know, away for spiritual
direction and all of the above. You can never
have enough and you can never. find that, okay,
now I've got it all. Now I don't have to worry
about it. I could just sit back and relax and
live it out. No, it's an ongoing journey and
it just always keeps getting deeper. Yeah. And
it's a huge thing in our culture because it seems
like so often we are always looking for that
thing to fill us. Um, and that can be material
or, I mean, we see this a lot these days that
can be ideological too. You know, like we're,
we're looking for that thing that answers all
of our questions. We're looking for that thing
that gives us ultimate certainty so that we can
be right and holy and look down. That's the egoic
aspect. Like we, so that we can look down on
others. Franciscan poverty says like, let that
go. Let that go. Like the, in, in the emptiness,
it only in that. disorienting emptiness, can
God be the one that fills us? Exactly. And that's
the purpose of poverty. Poverty as a value isn't
a value, really. Poverty as a vow isn't to make
you feel lower and hungry or imperfect or even
just a failure. Poverty is to free you, to free
you, to do all those things you've mentioned
and to keep on going even further and faster.
to the god who created you and is calling you
home yeah i love that that's beautiful um and
of course you mentioned it earlier but you know
the notion of poverty and that brings us to the
humility of god um the title of sister eli dealio's
book um and in the franciscan approach the incarnation
you mentioned this in your book this is a This
is a big theological element that kind of sets
Franciscans apart, correct? I mean, you mentioned
Duns Scotus. I mean, you've got a great section
in your book where you go through all these notable
Franciscans through the centuries, and each section
is kind of an on -ramp to further explore them
if you want to. And Scotus, of course, came along
and he refuted St. Anselm's popular atonement
theory, which is basically the idea that God
became man. order to die for our sins. And SCOTUS
argued that the incarnation would have still
happened, even if Adam and Eve had not sinned.
And I mean, this may seem like a wacky kind of
interpretation of the incarnation to many Christians
listening to this, who have only heard of sin
as the explanation for the incarnation. However,
can you discuss where SCOTUS was coming from
and how this was actually not a new idea and
the Franciscans were bringing forth something
that was actually quite ancient and perennial
in the Christian tradition? We'll try, Stephen.
It's a big question. We're just talking about
God becoming human. No big deal. Actually, you
know, I... I read Scotus and I admire him. I
understand what he's trying to say. But sometimes
to be able to articulate it back to you, I want
to do it justice. And I'm not a scholar in that
particular era, but neither was Francis a scholar.
So what I see in Francis and how Scotus perceived
it was that Francis followed the inspiration
of God. He built his whole life around Jesus
Christ. He wanted to do, he created the Bethlehem
scene because he wanted to re -replicate what
the Lord did. Then his whole, he was a common
man. He was a simple man. He was one of the people
of the city. And all he was trying to do is help
them see God the way he saw God in all these
little manifestations of picturesque little scenarios,
you know. And the fact that he had the stigmata,
the fact that, you know, and he tried to conceal
it at the end of his life, and he suffered terribly
from it. He was going blind, and they cauterized
his eyes, which did nothing but cause him pain.
And he was singing as they did it, and he said
he felt nothing. But, of course, he did, being
human, but he transcended it in his mind, in
his heart. He was so one with God that he could
feel only God's love, even though his body was
in pain. And I think this is what Scotus is trying
to say in some way, that Christ Jesus is one
of us. He lived among us, and he died just like
a man who was rejected by the world. And that
was part of the... That was part of the plan
of the Father insofar as it had something to
do with the redemption of the human race. Don
Don Scotus developed a theology around the spiritual
insights of Francis Sinclair. With regard to
the Incarnation, his view was that God so loved
the world, he wanted to take on human flesh to
live among humanity. to share divine life with
humanity and all of creation through the incarnation,
through Christ coming into this world. Now, this
might seem a little different than what many
of us grew up with. Many of us grew up with a
view of the incarnation that's similar to Anselm,
his theology of the atonement, that because humans
sinned, there needed to be a debt paid, and the
debt... was paid with the life of Jesus, the
passion of Christ. Because this theology is so
embedded in many of us, when we hear Scotus'
theology, we think it's an innovation, we think
it's new, we think it's different. But in fact,
it was centuries old, centuries old, theologians
who had argued for a positive anthropology, a
positive reason for the incarnation. For example,
Isaac of Syria, he died around 700. He argued
that the birth of Christ was the most happiest
thing that could possibly happen in the world.
So to attribute it to human sin would be ridiculous.
Instead, it revolves around God's love for all
of creation. God became incarnate so that the
world would become aware of God's love. As God
dwelt among us. So for me, because it was an
innovation to me, I didn't grow up with this
kind of theology. In recent years, I've kept
a nativity scene at my desk. Some people walk
into my study and say, hey, it's not Christmas
time. Why do you have a nativity set? for me
it is a constant reminder that the incarnation
is a part of my faith not just in december not
just december 25th or in the january but all
year round that the incarnation is evidence of
god's love among us and this is a very franciscan
approach i think that's what drew me to the franciscan
tradition um is the it is so positive you know
like usually usually in religion it's guilt and
shame that gets you in the door because you're
just trying to feel better about yourself and
then that that ends up being some kind of manipulating
force to keep bringing you back again however
francis It's saying like, yeah, look outside,
God's there. Yes, exactly. Listen to your dog
whimpering right now, bringing it back to my
dog. God's there. The overflowing, I know Bonaventure
would go into this with the fountain fullness,
this overflow of love and goodness that has been
perpetually flowing from the very beginning of
reality. It's everywhere. And we get to enter
into that flow and experience it. That's a different
kind of grace. And not to say that like we certainly
the sacrament of confession is a great thing.
And, you know, to talk about your wrongdoings
and mistakes, like I'm not advocating for, you
know, leaving that out of spirituality. However,
I'm saying that in the Franciscan way, it feels
deeper. to me that um it's not always the thing
that brings you to the throne room you know like
you you go there because it's so beautiful and
loving exactly and yeah exactly i like that and
that brings us to another element that you hit
on in your book and that's the concept of relationality
um concept sounds way too dry like again for
francis and claire it was like lived experience
um but relationality of course it comes out very
clearly in francis's Canticle of the Creatures,
which turns 800 years old this year. But also
throughout his life, as you mentioned, through
his relationship with creation, with lepers,
with outsiders, people on the margins. And even
in his approach to death, he called death sister
death. Even that was relational. Crazy. But can
you delve into this notion for me as you understand
it as a Franciscan and how the Franciscan way
kind of helps to elevate something that has perhaps
been neglected in Christianity and in the church
and has this intimate relationality of the universe
and our partnership in it? Yeah. You know, I
sometimes think that we try to separate divinity
and humanity. We compartmentalize them. France
did not. He united them. And that's why I think
it's so attractive, because we suddenly find
ourselves with God, not trying to figure out
who God is and how we can find him. We are with
him. He's within us. So that relationality with
all of creation is just like a tight bud that
opens up into a flower. It's that you don't even
know what the flower is going to look like when
it's only a bud. But when that opens up, it's
just magnificent. And I think that Francis had
special gifts from God. He was called from birth.
He was a unique child. He was joyous and friendly
and fun. And he had his sufferings and he had
his traumatic moments and he had his failures.
And he understood, you know, the lowly place
he had. in humanity like everybody else. But
in some ways, he was able to transcend from one
level to another to another, and he kept on going.
And God's grace and mercy called him, and he
responded. And God poured more on Francis because
Francis responded so beautifully. And God had
a plan for Francis. He knew the impact Francis
was going to have on society. I mean, you know,
in his own time, he had so many followers. But
it wasn't just that. It was that each follower
was so imbued with the spirit of Francis that
they all went out and they affected the world.
And so relationality and the attraction of many
people, I think Francis becomes for them the
harbor. You know, they were drift on the ocean.
There's nobody coming. They can't find their
way back. There's no lighthouse. And suddenly
they find. Francis, and he's the anchor. He's
the shore they've been trying to find so that
they could land their boat and start to live.
And that life springs up in them, and they develop
like a flower, really. They become kind. They
become helpful. They become compassionate. And
as they grow in love for Francis, Francis leads
them right to the Father, right to Jesus. And
the graces are what awaken us. It's not just
the human person. It's the grace we receive from
our opening ourselves to God in the way that
Francis did that enables us to begin to grow
and to develop and to become our own person on
our own personal quest. But he's out there being
our leader. Yeah, well, that brings me to something
Francis said when he was dying. And he said,
may Christ teach you what is yours to do. You
summarize it as this, quote, each person is called
by God to fulfill a particular mission, end quote.
And the uniqueness of the Imago Dei in each person,
and I know you... You're having conversations
like this all the time with the students there
at Alvernia. It is a liberating thing to awaken
more to how deeply connected you already are,
you know, to the divine all around. And then
I think that this brings us into a sense of mission
that because you realize who you are and you're
loved and you are made in the image of God and
you do have a unique purpose. In your quirks
and uniqueness, your particularity is, Scotus
would say, I mean, your hexaity, like these are
things that God has gifted you with. It's part
of you. I think the Franciscan tradition, it
really brings forth that notion of the Imago
Dei. And I'm curious how you approach that in
your work today at Albernia. That's a great question
because, Stephen, when I speak, I spoke about
the search class and I speak to the students.
every section of the search class. And what I
do, not only do I share with them a little bit
about the Bernadine history, Bernadine sisters,
and how we were founded and so on, but the other
half of it, at least, talks about the mission.
And we have as our mission to learn, to love,
to serve, which is the part of, it's right out
of Bonaventure, you know, and it's a famous quote
from Bonaventure about, you know, knowledge joined
with love and all of that. I explain what that
means. And then I show them all the little plaques
that hang in the buildings on campus, especially
the residence halls, Claire Hall, Francis Hall,
Bonaventure Hall. And then we have some of the
sisters named some of the halls for them. And
then I talk about the San Damiano Cross and how
that's in every building because of where it
comes from and how it's important. But then I
tell them, most importantly, is when you graduate
from Alvernia, and I show them the seal. And
on the seal in Latin, of course, is the saying,
I have done my part. May Christ show you what
is yours to do. And I said, would you graduate
from Alvernia? And you've had all these courses
and you've had the experience of listening to
all the faculty prepare you for life. And you
now know what the spirituality is the foundation
point. What's the spiritual basis for this university
was instilled in. was developed as part of the
evolution of the university. The Bernadine Franciscan
Sisters, with Francis as their patron, developed
a model which would help students live a life
that would give them not just wealth and fame
and maybe even make a life, but would give them
purpose and would help them find their way through
troubled society and reach out to a God who loves
them. Regardless of faith, regardless of no faith
at all. And I make that very clear because we
are always a Catholic university welcoming all
faiths. And then I say to them, God will show
you what is yours to do. And that is what your
focus needs to be. Hold on to the hand of God.
You know, and one time I was talking to a group
of students and I said, just remember three things.
You know, remember. I hope I get the three of
them right. The first one was, never forget your
roots. And the second one was, never turn your
back on the poor. And the third was, never let
go of the hand of God. And I said, if you just
write that down and keep it as a bookmark. In
a prayer book someplace or whenever you feel
lonely or lost and you want to say a prayer to
God, pull that out. If you just do those three
things, you'll be okay. You'll find your way
home. Thank you for your time, Sister Rosemary.
This has been a real joy. Is there anything we
left out or anything else you wanted to hit on
before we conclude here? Maybe this is what I
can share. I want the students to start a podcast
through campus ministry. And that's where I'm
working now. I think that students are hungry
for God. They want to know more. They don't know
how to ask the right, they're afraid to ask the
question, to be labeled. It's like they talk
to each other, but they're kind of stumbling
around and they don't know. And I think that
if we had students who understood certain things
well, and they were running a podcast, like you're
running this podcast with me, there would be
such... It would be such a help for them spiritually.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, the whole podcast phenomenon,
as I mentioned to you in a previous call that
we had was, I mean, it's kind of baffling, but
it's what you said. I mean, I think people are,
despite all the stats you see about people's
connection to an organized religion, people are
really hungry for depth. I've never said this
on the podcast before, but this podcast is called
Off the Page. And it's a multidimensional kind
of meaning because, you know, typically we think
of when you read God's word, and this goes back
to our mutual friend, Father Dan Riley, typically
you think that, okay, that just pertains to scripture,
reading God's word. And it certainly does. However,
that also takes us off the page into the world,
as Francis did, to read the world. before us
and to enjoy this reading and to get lost in
this reading and so it's kind of a play on words
with also we're interviewing a lot of authors
so we're going off the page with them our ultimate
hope is that at least mine is that it guides
listeners off the page in their own life to go
out in the world and open up to the God that
is right before them all along, wanting to, as
you said, hold their hand. So as we conclude
here, I was curious, and if nothing comes to
mind, that's okay. But toward the end of your
book, I loved that you included a number of beautiful
prayers that are important to the Franciscan
tradition. So as we bring this to a close, I
was wondering if you would mind either reciting
or reading a prayer that means a lot to you.
And if you don't mind, before you read it, could
you tell us why it's so important to you on a
personal level? You don't mind if I use the book
as a prompt? That's fine. It's your book. It's
my book, yes. The prayers, you know, it's interesting
how I found things to put into the book. For
example, I did a little piece on... Pope Francis,
I just think that this man is so wonderful. He's
just a gift to humanity at the time we needed
him. And I didn't know what I would say, but
I just started to write it. And it all just came
out just the way I hardly even changed a letter
in the whole expression of it. But that's sometimes,
you know, it just sometimes something hits you
very significantly. There is a prayer that we
sing as Bernadine Franciscan Sisters. It's called
Tata Pulchra. And it's all pure. That's what
it means. Tata Pulchra. Beautiful. You are all
fair, O Mary. You are all fair. And the original
stain is not in you. You are the glory of Jerusalem.
You are the joy of Israel. You are the honor
of our people. You are the advocate of sinners.
O Mary, Virgin most prudent, Mother most merciful,
pray for us. Intercede for us with our Lord Jesus
Christ. In your conception, O Virgin, you are
immaculate. Pray for us to the Father. whose
son you have born. And we sing that prayer in
Latin every Saturday because our congregation,
as with all Franciscans, we are very devoted
to the mother of God. And so that prayer has
a special part of the book and it's especially
in my heart. Beautiful. Well, thank you for sharing
it with us. And thank you again for your time,
Sister Rosemary. This was a joy. It was a joy
to be with you too, Stephen. Once again, that
was Sister Rosemary Stutz. Her book, Franciscan
Field Guide, is available on our website, Amazon,
or wherever books are sold. If you feel inclined,
please consider leaving a review of this podcast
or visiting the donation link in the show notes
to help us continue to hopefully create content
like this that accompanies you on your spiritual
journey. Thanks again to Sister Rosemary. to
Dr. Darlene Prides, and thanks as well to Father
Cyprian Concilio for providing the intro and
outro music for this episode. This is Stephen
Copeland signing off. Peace and all good.