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Welcome off the page. It's great to be with you. I wanted to begin this episode by sharing

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something we're really excited about here at Franciscan Media. So starting with this

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episode, we're going to begin implementing segments throughout the podcast that invite

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you to pause and consider what a guest has said. So probably won't do this every episode,

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but many will include these segments beginning with this one. So our friends at the Center

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for Action and Contemplation, they call these Contemplative Sits. I really like that as

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an invitation. My dear friend and mentor, the late Father Dan Riley up at Mount Irenaeus,

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he called opportunities like this Franciscan Lectio, and he based that on the quadratic

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structure for prayer attributed to St. Clair of Assisi. That structure is simply this,

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gaze, consider, contemplate, and imitate. So in these times of pausing throughout the

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conversation, we're invited to take the words spoken by a guest, hold them in our hearts,

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gaze upon them, consider them, contemplate them, which is to say, we simply let them

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sink deeper and deeper into our hearts, into our very being, and then ultimately imitate

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the truth that is being revealed to us. So why exactly implement a segment like this?

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It's really part of an overall movement at Franciscan Media called Rebuild God's Church,

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where we hope that our resources can better accompany you on your spiritual journey as

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we seek to hopefully meet you digitally, multimedia-wise, right where you are. And so maybe you do just

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want to listen to the interview without these Franciscan Lectio moments. That's perfectly

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fine. You can fast forward through these segments. But we do invite you into St. Clair of Assisi's

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movement of prayer as you listen, to not just consume information with the mind, as to be

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honest, I so often do that when I listen to podcasts. It's all up here. It's all cerebral.

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But to truly listen with the ear of the heart, gaze, consider, contemplate, imitate. I feel

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like this movement is so important in my own life because we're all really being invited

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into this rebuilding process, right? Into what it means to bring healing into our own

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lives, our own households, our own communities, and ultimately our world. So speaking of St.

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Clair, it's a joy to introduce to you our next guest, a world-renowned scholar on St.

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Clair of Assisi, Sister Margaret Carney. Sister Margaret is a member of the Sisters of St.

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Francis of Newman communities. Her education in theology and Franciscan studies took place

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at Duquesne University, the Franciscan Institute of St. Bonaventure University. And she was

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the first woman to graduate from the Franciscan University of Rome at the doctoral level.

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Sister Margaret is a rock star. She provides tours for Franciscan pilgrimage programs.

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That's where she and I met actually. And she is a board member at Franciscan Media. She

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was the president at St. Bonaventure University from 2004 to 2016. And her beautiful book,

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her biography on St. Clair, Light of Assisi, is available in the Franciscan Media Store,

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Amazon, or wherever books are sold. The focus of today's conversation is about St. Clair's

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legacy and leadership being their own light to us as we navigate this fraught political

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moment and polarized age that has really been upon us for the last several years. I should

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say that this conversation was recorded one month after the 2024 election and a little

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over a month before the inauguration. So I found this to be such an important conversation.

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And I really hope you learn as much from Sister Margaret as I did. As you'll hear though,

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Sister Margaret and I really dive right into Clair's life and impact. If you don't know

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much about St. Clair, that's okay. But if you do want to learn more, I cannot recommend

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Sister Margaret's book enough. And we also have numerous videos on St. Clair on our YouTube

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channel, many recorded by Sister Margaret herself. Or you can visit our website, franciscanmedia.org.

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And a little hint, click on the search finder in the top right corner and you can simply

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type in, you can search anything you want, type in Clair and you'll see close to 100

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pages of content, stories, all revolving around St. Clair of Assisi. So without further ado,

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our interview.

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Sister Margaret Carney, thank you for joining off the page.

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Good morning, Stephen, glad to be here. The kind of impetus for this podcast, for this

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episode was a metaphor that St. Clair returns to quite often in her writings, this notion

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of a mirror, for example, this mirror of eternity that we're invited to gaze upon. And really

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the idea for this episode came from a conversation we had about turning this mirror on the life

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and legacy of St. Clair and seeing how it might help us to find our way amid the difficulties

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in our society, just some of the cultural challenges that we're all navigating right

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now. Did I summarize our idea for this episode okay? Or do you have anything to add?

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Yes, you do. The only thing I would like to add, Stephen, is that since our earliest planning

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and to today, we've had very dramatic national experience with our most recent election.

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And so in talking about Clair as a mirror for facing the difficulties of your time,

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I don't want any of my remarks to be taken as a false equivalency. Our times are profoundly

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different in regards to culture, society, Christianity as a framework. However, the

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beauty of human history is that we learn in every generation that there are things that

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propel the human person to good or to evil or to the in-between, and that we can learn

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from those who went before us. And Clair has often not been seen as a person with a lot

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to tell us in contrast to her friend and mentor, St. Francis, but we're uncovering year by

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year more of her as a model and a leader for us. So let's let her try to help us out in

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this interesting time we're living through.

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Yeah, yeah. And thanks to people like you, you know, you're one of the few on the front

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lines that are helping to uncover that as a Clair scholar. So we're all very grateful

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for your work and your beautiful book. Got it right here. Yeah. Give you a quick little

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plug. How about that?

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Thank you. Very good. Very good. Sister Nancy Selaski and I, who was my next door neighbor

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while I studied in Rome, we went off and did preliminary work on quite a few of the early

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Franciscan women, Margaret of Cortona, Angela, the two Angelas, etc. And our mantra was the

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women want their story told. So we're happy to be doing that.

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Awesome. Well, let's dive right in. Like you said, we'll be kind of crossing that interpretive

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bridge today, trying to put Clair's life and legacy in its own historical context, which

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was 800 some years ago, but then also trying to apply what we may learn from her today

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as we navigate some of these things in our society. So to begin, what were some pillars

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from her life that could perhaps be helpful to us amid the challenges we're facing?

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I think obviously the first came from how she learned from Francis to focus on Jesus

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as the poor, humble victim, the one who came to redeem us in his body, in his blood. And

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so she is in a state, religiously speaking, of constantly trying to find in the Gospels

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the stories, the instances where Jesus manifests mercy, compassion, understanding, non-judgment.

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But she sees that Jesus is a man of a certain time and place, but he is open to the Pharisee.

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He's open to the centurion. He's open to this woman who literally is almost a pagan.

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And I think that that becomes a way for both of them to take a place in a society where

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certain social changes are happening and none too comfortably.

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Can you go a little bit deeper into some of those social changes?

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Yes. Clair lives at a moment that is really quite fascinating when you try to think about

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how the lot of women is changing in various cultures and times. So we tend to think, rightly

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so, of women in, for example, the ancient Rome, and that would be then the Italian peninsula

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as Roman influence takes over the whole land, Rome right up through about the 11th century.

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It's a very patriarchal society and the woman is an assent. She's a daughter to be married

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off for a man with military power or land or political prestige. And that doesn't mean

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that fathers don't love their daughters. It just means that if you have daughters, they're

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a burden unless you can make those arrangements for them.

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What is changing that in a very interesting way is the fact that right in the time of

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Clair and Francis' 13th century, there is what is known as a surplus of marriageable

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women. Demographically, there are more women who are of marriageable age than there are

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men due to crusades, famine, what have you. So women are, in a sense, together and alone,

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looking for different ways to deal with their status that keeps them in dignity and even

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just keeps them economically. So you have a rise, not only of women going into monasteries,

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but women creating little communities that don't have a big monastic footprint, but they

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come together, they pool their resources, they lead a Christian life, they serve the

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poor. It's a whole new thing. You also have the fact that women are now

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in the communes, in the cities, where trade is becoming as important as land ownership.

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Women whose families, whose husbands are involved in a trade are either part of that family

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business, sometimes they run it because the husband is off on crusade or trading or dies

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early. So you have women who are entrepreneurs and have a great deal of freedom. They travel,

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they have money, they can pay people and hire people. That's a pretty new reality. And in

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the nobility of which Clair is a part, the lower levels of nobility, and that would be

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where she is in the Ophrodite clan. She's not a princess, she's not a duchess. These

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women are living on the margin of the women who come from the old Roman system. Father

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knows best, you will only do what father allows. Two, look at this. There are women finding

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new ways that, you know, it's not that the church doesn't like it, that church just didn't

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think of it and now tries to figure out how to regulate it. Economic success for women,

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but still in those instances, women have no political voice. Their only voice is through

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the family, through the husband, through the son. So the successful partnerships in marriage

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will include the woman's voice, but it will always be hidden.

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Yeah, it was amazing for me to be graced with opportunity to go on a Franciscan pilgrimage

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with you last year and you're one of our leaders. And I'll always remember the night we did

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that Clair walk, the spiritual imagination of thinking of her leaving this place of nobility

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in the upper levels of Assisi and then running straight downward. And then eventually, I

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think the next day, or maybe it was that very day that we visited San Damiano in the community

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that she led. I'm always struck by that image of this leader, so bold, so radical. And then

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her leadership came out in the community that she helped lead as well.

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That's right. Downward mobility is a big deal for Franciscans.

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Can you go a little bit deeper into downward mobility and what that means?

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Well, it's just what you described. We usually speak of upward mobility as people socially

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being able to improve their lives, get a better job, marry into the right level of society,

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find respect through work that you do, develop a reputation so that you're always seen as

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moving higher, whether it's in your place of work, your family, your town, et cetera.

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But for the Franciscans, the idea was don't aspire to those higher types of awards for

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your achievement. Aspire to keep going down to where the poor are, where the neglected

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are and learn from them where Jesus is present in the world. Not an easy lesson ever.

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So I wanted to pause here early in this conversation to consider this notion that Sister Margaret

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brought up, something that I believe is uniquely Franciscan, and this idea of downward mobility.

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In Sister Margaret's book, Light of Assisi, she writes about this moment in Claire's life

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where she sneaks out of her house. It's almost straight out of a movie. And she, middle of

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the night, sneaks out of her house and she leaves this comfortable place of nobility

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and essentially runs straight downward, beyond the city walls, toward the lower levels of

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Assisi where the poor resided. And it's there that she meets up with Francis and his brothers

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and officially begins her new life. So Sister Margaret writes on page 27 in her chapter,

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Midnight Exodus.

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Finally, Claire arrived at the tiny church of Santa Maria de Llanjoli. Once there, she

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was formally received by Francis in a carefully orchestrated ritual. Her beautiful clothing

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was exchanged for a penitence, wrote. Francis himself cut her hair. The time honored tradition

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for women seeking to leave the world to live by religious vows. A simple veil marked her

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as given to Christ in a life of virginity. In the presence of the brothers, Claire professed

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her dedication to Jesus and like them, to poverty and their simple rule. All that she

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once claimed as a member of a noble family was put aside and all that she would become

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as a woman fixed on God would be accomplished in partnership with them.

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So this scene, one, it's beautiful. Do we know exactly what happened? No, but it's a

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beautiful scene to contemplate. This Midnight Exodus of Claire and this running straight

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down almost becomes its own model for the spiritual trajectory of anyone, in my opinion,

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who's claiming to follow Christ. And this downward mobility, it really models and mirrors,

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it really mirrors the incarnation where God comes down and takes on the humble form of

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this human baby born into an oppressed people group, really the radical self-giving kenosis

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of the Trinity pouring into creation and taking on a body, humbly taking on a body. And I

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find this idea of downward mobility really challenging and inspiring. I mean, there's

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such pressure and emphasis in our society to move upward. And not all of that is bad.

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I really don't think it is. But when, in my experience, when that upward climb becomes

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all consuming, I think we not only lose perspective, but we also become disconnected from our hearts

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and the true self. Why is that? I think it's because the soul is inherently spiritually

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connected to God and others and creation around us. We're not meant to be isolated, self-absorbed.

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And communally, we're really kind of witnessing this right now. When everything becomes all

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about climbing or profit or the bottom line or some kind of self-focused isolationism,

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there can be a disconnect from the common good and our own responsibility to be a force

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of good in this world. So what does downward mobility look like in one's own life? For

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me, time and again, it has looked like running downward toward what might be risky or uncomfortable.

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Putting the heart on the line, confronting the ego, bringing insecurities to the surface,

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coming from the other, allowing the margins to be a pathway to my own continued conversion.

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And I love that for Claire, as she goes downward, ultimately the gospel expands for her. And

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I think that can be true for each of us. So I'll conclude this Franciscan Lexio section

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with this line from Sister Margaret's book. This is on page 26, the page before what I

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read earlier. And Sister Margaret writes, once on the other side of this gate in Assisi's

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protective walls, Claire would become a citizen of another commune of gospel striving.

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Yeah. And that's what I was wondering. Do you see this as a potential void or pitfall

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in our society where this obsession with upward mobility and what does that mean for our own

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spiritual trajectories today?

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Well, Stephen, from my associations with colleges and their responsibility for the education,

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but also the human formation of young people, I am deeply, deeply concerned about the immediate

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future of younger generations because let me say, and I'm no expert on the use of the

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social media, but I know enough and I've read enough to know, for example, you gain your

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reputation as a 13 year old by how many likes you get. You may never leave your bedroom,

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but you create this artificial community. It's not artificial, it's real around yourself.

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And you look at the bright side and the dark side of those kinds of influences on young

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people and think, you're never going to preach a word of humility and not caring about your

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image. It is going to take a real miracle of grace to bring the gospel to young people

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who've had no other coaching about a religious framework.

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Now, I'm not saying this is going to be true of all young people, but we know of the young

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people coming into Catholic colleges today, and this number may be lower now, 10% will

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have had an active practice of their faith, 10%. So young people come to a Catholic college

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because it's good, their parents are pleased with it, it has their major. They're not coming

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dying to learn their faith. And so we have to be crafty about bringing them along intellectually,

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spiritually, humanly, how we do that. But I do think trying to speak to this notion

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of stepping aside and taking a servant position, but I will say this, it is better caught than

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taught. So for example, when we will take students to a place where a disaster has happened

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and they're helping flood victims or they're post pandemic or so often that is the transformative

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experience because they see other poverty, deprivation, things that could lead to hopelessness

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and despair, they arrive and simply by helping somebody clean mud out of their basement,

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they're suddenly seen as like this messianic person. And as long as we conduct those experiences

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and provide reflection, an opportunity for students to dig deep into the emotions of

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that, what were you feeling? What are you thinking? Does it remind you of anything,

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maybe something you've read in the gospel? That's what can light a fire. And so we need

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also to be very attentive to that type of experience.

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Well, those experiences are teaching through the praxis of lived experience, like downward

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mobility, right? And you used the word humility earlier, which is so big in the Franciscan

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tradition, but downward mobility in our culture, that's always the pressure that young people

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feel to climb, to achieve, to accomplish, to make something of your... And not that

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all that stuff is bad.

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No, it isn't. No.

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However, if it's done without humility or it's done without these experiences of downward

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mobility, I think we lose a big part, myself included, I think. I think I miss out on a

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huge aspect of myself when I'm so focused on the next thing and not allowing the humble

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God to animate my day-to-day life.

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That is true, Stephen, but you made a really important point, which is we don't want to

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snuff out good ambition. In other words, I think of the young person who wants to study

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law in order to be an advocate for the homeless or single parents. Well, here's the news.

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You don't do really well academically. You're never going to get that law degree. So you

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have to have an ambition about doing well, passing the LSATs, passing your boards. So

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we don't want to make people feel guilty because they got a good grade or they were recognized

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by an organization or the dean or something like that. But it's keeping that balance is

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the thing. And that's where community helps. If somebody reminds you.

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Yeah. And Claire was very ambitious in her own way, correct?

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Exactly. Oh, yes, she was.

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That kind of brings us back to Claire and her own spiritual journey.

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That's right.

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Can you go deeper into her own ambition and where it took her?

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Yes, I would say first, her principal ambition is not Francis, it's Jesus. And she wants

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a life of following right behind Jesus so she can feel him, smell him, you know, his

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cloak looks back into her face in the wind because she learned that from Francis. And

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she watches how Francis year by year grows in that and becomes courageous enough even

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to pray to share his suffering. So he's the mentor all the time, but it's always the two

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of them helping each other unravel this mystery of Christ. So I think that in that way, she

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is positioning herself with Francis as a guide. She also has other guides, though we know,

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for example, that as they become more organized and the church takes more of an interest in,

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OK, are we going to approve these women or not? Are they just sort of out there? Part

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renegade, part holy women. They assign Cistercian, we would say today, Trappist monks to come

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and preach to them because they are educated preachers, the friars, by and large, especially

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in the earliest years, did not have a university or, you know, scriptural education. And we

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know that Claire distinguished between the really good speakers and the ones that aren't

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so up to par. And so while she had no comparable education, she clearly had that kind of intuitive

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intelligence that can learn in amazing ways, even given a little bit of resource. So these

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Trappists, and you will remember Brother Consulio from California, the Trappist monk who joined

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us for a while in Rome. He's a great example of a Trappist who's been able to bring his

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musical talent out to the service of our community of Mount Irenaeus. But that was a big thing

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for her. And I also certainly among the friars, there were friars with different talents,

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wisdom insight after the death of Francis, that were very close to her and remain close

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with her right through to her death. And I think she learned, I don't think I know, she

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learned from church leaders like Cardinal Hugolino, and who then becomes Pope Gregory

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the Ninth. She doesn't just, you know, sort of allow them to come in and speak and then

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say, oh, well, you know, they'll do their thing, we'll do ours. She hears, she listens,

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she knows what the concerns are. So she allows herself, I think, and the bishops of Assisi,

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it's a little confusing because for the whole time of life of Francis and Claire, the bishop

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was called Guido. So sometimes we're talking Guido one, Guido two, but she allowed herself

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to be schooled.

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How did Claire in her time, where like you said, a very patriarchal society, how did

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she manage relationships with diverse officials among the friars and then within the church

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as well, as you've been mentioning?

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Well, I think this is just a bit of a postscript to that last response, Stephen. And I think

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part of the way she was able to do that is she is one of those people who has a very

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particular talent for adjusting to the person, the culture, the frameworks for discussion

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of the person she is with. That is not a talent that is equally distributed in the human race.

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There's some people who it's like, you know, it's their way or the highway or they only

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have one way of looking at an issue. Claire, and this is something here again, I don't,

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you can learn it, but I think it's also innate in certain people. So she understood the patterns

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and the protocols and the courtesies of the nobility. So if a cardinal comes calling at

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San Damiano, he will be received as a noble guest. She also understood the plight and

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the worries of the servants in the house. You know, she clearly knew them. She was attentive

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to what was going among the poor in Assisi. We have the stories of her sending food to

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the poor through her servants. So she clearly had that ability. And the person in our world

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that also manifests that today is Pope Francis. I heard a wonderful statement yesterday by

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Gerardo Cano, a Vatican journalist, who said, Pope Francis is not saying anything different

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in principle about the economy, the greed of the ultra-rich, the danger to the environment.

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He said Benedict said it. John Paul II said it. But Francis uses language ordinary people

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relate to. And now people are like, did you hear what the Pope said? Well, guess what?

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It's been said for 25 years. But that's how he disrupts things, because he will use a

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turn of phrase that you're like, Pope Francis said that, you know. He doesn't speak Vaticanese.

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He speaks the language of people. And so I think he's a good example in our time of someone

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with his vast Jesuit education, who can relate to the highest levels of authority, but sit

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with a farmer or a sick child, you know, or a struggling parent and get right in there

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with them.

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Nat. Yeah. Yeah. That notion of authority is very interesting because Claire herself

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seemed like she was certainly radical in her own way, in her own spiritual journey, and

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a bit of a disruptor as well. And yet she had a respect for authority as well. She had

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a respect for institutions, which not to project too much on our own culture today, but we're

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navigating a time where people have an intense distrust, and sometimes for good reason. But

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there's this really intense and growing distrust of our institutions to the point that to be

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radical or a disruptor, it becomes less humble, less compassionate, more certain. Do you know

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where I'm going with that kind of?

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Claire. Yes. I think you hit on a really important cultural dilemma for us, Stephen, that mistrust

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of institutions, I think, may be one of the most insidious problems that is going to either,

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if we don't find a way to bring in a corrective, is going to really cripple us as a democracy.

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As a younger person working in diocesan administration, I was blessed to work with a couple of really

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superb new... This was a new thing in the church to have people pay attention to organizational

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design, organizational planning, how to evaluate and assess whether the organization was a

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parish council, which was a new thing post-Vanikin, or a diocese, or a hospital or college. And

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so in those years, I learned to think about the power of institutions, but also to think

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about what does it take to maintain an institution that is worthy of trust? And if you're doing

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that job, you never sleep. So the more complex the institution, the more you've got to have

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eyes on a lot of different things. And I don't think we talk about them. We say, oh yeah,

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the institutions, impoverished and oppressed. Tell me about this. Tell me about the Catholic

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hospitals that literally give millions in unrefunded care every year in their emergency

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room because the sister sponsors or the Catholic sponsors have made that a condition of budgeting

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in that hospital. That is not an institution that's doing harm. Now there may be parts

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of the institution, maybe there are certain workers not getting compensated as they should,

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or maybe over here there's a department where there's a lot of toxic stuff going on. But

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the point is, if you give up all institutional power, you reduce your work to one by one

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by one by one. I'm not saying that's bad. I'm just saying in a culture as complex as

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that of the United States of America, you need both. And sadly, I think in the excitement

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of the late 60s and 70s when we were being liberated from oppressive institutions, a

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lot of this coming from liberation theology in Latin America, which got transposed sometimes

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uncritically to the United States, we pulled back from dedicating ourselves to the good

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of institutions and the church is paying a price for that now.

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Yeah. And I'd be curious too to learn from you about perhaps some instances where Claire

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rejects or resists accepting directions from authorities. And then also times when she

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accepts policies, practices that are requested or acquired by church officials because she

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had a very brilliant dance with all of these authorities, correct?

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Exactly. That's a...dance is a good word to describe it. The first authority she went

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mano a mano with was Frances. Remember, she was undertaking a really vigorous fast and

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it was clearly endangering her health. And Frances must have come to ask her to give

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this up. I'm sure the sisters were frantic and probably asked him to intervene. She did

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not listen and he went and brought the bishop. I mean, you don't bring the bishop into a

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monastery for that conversation lightly. And it says to me that to that point, she had

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refused the advice. And he was saying, what am I going to do? You know? And it's even

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one of the mysteries of who she was that she could be so here with herself that even Frances

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couldn't reach her at times. So that's the first. Second, and there was another instance

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where he brought five young women to the monastery after he'd come back from preaching in certain

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towns. And there was one young lady, she said to him right from the get-go, this is not

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going to work. He said, oh, lovely family. The pastor thinks she's great, you know, whatever.

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So she agrees to give it a try, but she was right. He was wrong. This young woman didn't

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last very long. So she maintained her own judgment. The really big and lengthy contest

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she had was with Cardinal Hugolino, who was appointed to serve as a kind of ombudsa or

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liaison between the Coria and Rome and all these new communities of women. Let it be

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said first, Hugolino admired her, had enormous affection, was so impressed. But his job was

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get them all into shape. Here's the rule you give them. Here are the directions they have

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to follow. They want our approval. This is what you do. You don't do this. You don't

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get our approval. And in fact, we can close that monastery. We can tell a bishop, you

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go in there, tell those ladies to go home, take the keys, lock the door. And it was done

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in certain places. So with Hugolino, she had someone who wanted her to succeed, but was

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convinced she could only succeed if she accepted this is what Rome is asking you to do. So

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what we see in her interactions with him during the lifetime of Francis and after the lifetime

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of Francis is a protracted debate about can they truly live without any property? Because

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he, as any church official, any male of the time, if a woman did not have the title in

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marriage or the title through being a daughter or sister to a powerful brother, she had to

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have property of some sort not to starve. And if women went into monasteries, they took

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their endowments with them. And then these rich families kept giving to monasteries so

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the women were kept up. Clara's like, none of that. And they're saying, this will not

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work. And she's saying, watch me. And so poor Hugolino, I mean, I do feel sorry for him.

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You know, it's like, yes, to keep going back and saying to the pope, mission not accomplished.

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He's holding out. And then finally, it's when Agnes in Prague, the very wealthy woman comes

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and has all of these, oh my God, really property rights titles. And she wants to follow this

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way. Oh, poor, now he's the pope. And he's insisting that Agnes follow and Claire writes

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that famous line, what you hold may you always hold, no matter what anyone tells you do not

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abandon and of course, it took us years to figure out the anyone was the pope.

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Yes, that's correct.

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Oh, you know who I'm talking about? Well, Agnes of course had the great advantage that

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her brother was a king. And her brother appealed on her behalf to the pope. So there's a political

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triangle there that worked on their behalf. Had that not been the case, I don't think

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Agnes could have held out.

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That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. You just brought up several situations there where Claire's

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engaged in this dance. You know, she has resolve, but also respect. She has ambition, but also

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humility. She like you said, watch me like she knows what she wants. And yet she does

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it in such a she does it in such a humble way.

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And I get an answer the second part, are there times when she accepts a regulation that would

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not be to her liking? So I'll give you an actual example. Claire did not write out her

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rule of life until she was close to death. So five years before her death, she begins

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that work. In the meantime, from the year 1217, Frances is still alive. She's being

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given rules first by Hugolino and other directors from the papacy. And that a rule from Pope

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Innocent the fourth, which is the last to come from Rome to her. And they have very,

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very strict instructions for the women on everything. When they fast, what they wear,

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but the big one is the enclosure, how they are in these enclosed monasteries, locks and

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keys for the main door. Always, you know, two sisters at the entrance, no men entering

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unless they have a companion with them like workmen or friars. And you're like, Oh my

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God. Now I would have to say that's the kind of bad law that arises from crises. Yes, something,

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there's something being corrected here, but it's over correcting. So I'll give you this

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example when in one of the final rules, the rule of Innocent the fourth, they talk about,

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when you leave the monastery, okay, this is the way that is described. And it's described

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as, as soon as a woman enters and becomes a novice. Once they have observed this rule,

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they may never be granted any permission to leave this enclosure unless perhaps they are

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transferred to another place. So you only leave here if you go to another monastery

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or to reform a monastery. And they can at times be transferred for pot is reasons, but

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as a general rule, only with permission of the general that means of the friars. However,

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it is fitting that when they die, both the enclosed as well as the serving sisters are

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buried there. So you never leave now, when you get to that statement for clear, she says,

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I love this cause it starts with how your hair is to be cut. After her hair has been

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cut all round and her secular clothes set aside, she is allowed to have three tunics

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and a mantle. And thereafter, she may not go outside the monastery, except listen to

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this for a useful, reasonable, evident and justifiable purpose. That's a very different

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way to look at what allows me to leave this enclosure. Now today you will find many Clarion

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monasteries. There's a spectrum. Those who stay with that older, you don't go, it's super

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sacred. It's mysterious. You have grills and locks and the nuns never see you face to face.

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There's some time a black curtain at the entrance. And you have other monasteries that are saying

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this is useful. This is evident. It is useful for us to go to a workshop on the teachings

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of St. Bonaventure. So, but we will get permission from the bishop and we will go to the workshop.

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00:44:59,620 --> 00:45:05,640
So they don't just fly around. First of all, they can't afford to, but players today in

399
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:12,600
certain monasteries will exercise a kind of prudent judgment of things that they can do

400
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:19,480
to keep their lives healthy and on track. So Claire gave a lot more leeway and credit

401
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:23,600
to the judgment of her successors.

402
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:32,480
What do you think we can learn today about her own approach, critique, respect, the whole,

403
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:38,000
you know, everything that Claire embodied with authority. What can we learn from Clarion

404
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:43,360
leadership today? What could that look like? How could it help bring healing today?

405
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:49,520
For me, the biggest lesson in her lifetime of interactions with authorities, whether

406
00:45:49,520 --> 00:46:00,160
it was priors or church leaders, is that she valued the primacy of being in relationship

407
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:10,920
as a Christian sister to these brothers. So it begins with the earliest brothers. She's

408
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:19,080
the first woman. But the rapport, and of course, you can tell from the legislation of the times,

409
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:24,560
and it's not something we should sniff at. It was probably pretty prudent that there's

410
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:30,800
a lot of effort to make sure that if you've got a group of women attached to an order

411
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:38,360
or a movement led by men, you've got to have some boundary lines clearly marked out. And

412
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:45,200
so she begins in this awkward position of there aren't other women, they don't have

413
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:52,520
a monastery and a convent waiting. So she is immediately taken to live with Benedictines.

414
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:58,840
She doesn't stay there very long. She then goes on to stay with a group of penitent women

415
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:04,760
living up on a hillside outside of Assisi. There again, they're not being led by the

416
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:11,280
friars or tutored by the friars. But she's learning what are the structures. She takes

417
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:17,200
from the Benedictines a lot of wisdom. You know, the chapter where every sister, whether

418
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:24,240
she's just come in a day ago or she's been there for 80 years, speaks. Where work is

419
00:47:24,240 --> 00:47:29,720
assigned, you know, so everybody knows, oh, you've got the kitchen, I get the latrines,

420
00:47:29,720 --> 00:47:34,260
you know, but we'll switch next week, you know, that sort of thing. So I think that

421
00:47:34,260 --> 00:47:43,800
she learned from these different experiences, how to negotiate what to accept and what not

422
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:52,920
to accept. And I think that she also, because of that primacy of relationship, she tries

423
00:47:52,920 --> 00:48:02,200
to conduct her disagreements in a way that they don't end in bitterness. It's not win-lose.

424
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:11,000
It's can we keep finding a way? I think that's an underlying theme because we don't see the

425
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:18,520
church authorities invoking negative sanctions against her, as you would against someone

426
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:28,000
who is simply being, you know, resistant and disobedient and disruptive. No, she's valued.

427
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:34,200
So they want her to do well. And I think the fact that she always manages to get that eye

428
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:42,640
of the needle threaded is a sign that they do respect and have a certain affection, even

429
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,480
if at times it's grudging.

430
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:56,920
So I wanted to take some time with something Sister Margaret just said about this animating

431
00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:03,720
force really to St. Clair's approach to leadership. And the phrase Sister Margaret used was primacy

432
00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:09,440
of relationship. It made me think back to my first full-time job, one of my first full-time

433
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:15,120
jobs. And this was in sports information at Grace College in Winona Lake, Indiana, my

434
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:21,040
alma mater. And I had a wonderful boss and athletic director named Chad Briscoe. And

435
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:28,160
he would emphasize something similar, that everything we did as an athletic department

436
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:33,100
had to be about serving others and building relationships. So whether that was writing

437
00:49:33,100 --> 00:49:39,520
a game story or improving the website or doing radio for a game, it was never about what

438
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:45,880
we were doing. And we were doing some innovative things in sports information at that time.

439
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:50,800
But it was about the service that we could provide. It was about the parents on the other

440
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:55,480
side of the country now being able to tune into the radio stream to hear the game their

441
00:49:55,480 --> 00:50:00,440
child was playing in. Or the student athlete who had worked hard in their sport and had

442
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:07,120
to earn an accolade or an award. And now we were able to celebrate them via storytelling

443
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:15,940
and media to help that person to feel special and seen. And I have come back to this relational

444
00:50:15,940 --> 00:50:21,360
approach to work and to the world again and again throughout my life. And my work as a

445
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:27,440
storyteller and editor and as a high school golf coach as well, I know that there will

446
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:34,520
be hard decisions, tough conversations, conflict, challenges. And I found that it's easy when

447
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:42,480
that pressure is kind of turned up to internalize or get tunnel vision or become self-focused

448
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:49,280
or even I admit self-absorb. But I've learned that there's something really isolating and

449
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:58,800
anxiety inducing about this, about going into a silo. Yes, of course I want this podcast

450
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:05,200
or the books I've written to be successful, whatever successful means, right? And yes,

451
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:10,300
of course I want the teams that I coach to experience the thrill of victory. But I have

452
00:51:10,300 --> 00:51:15,640
to remember that in this pursuit of Christ-like excellence, that was another phrase that Coach

453
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:22,500
Briscoe used, that it is about service and helping others along the way. Or in the case

454
00:51:22,500 --> 00:51:27,840
of coaching, helping my players to learn about life's important values through the game of

455
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:35,660
golf, just as Coach Briscoe helped us learn in sports information. So I'm reminded of

456
00:51:35,660 --> 00:51:43,440
the passage in Matthew 20 where we're told that Jesus came not to be served, but to serve.

457
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:49,400
And I'm just curious, you know, what does primacy of relationship look like to you in

458
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:56,760
your day-to-day life? And how might this kind of leadership take form in situations where

459
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:04,660
there may be conflict or tension? And lastly, what do you find challenging or inspiring

460
00:52:04,660 --> 00:52:10,560
about primacy of relationship as an approach to life and leadership?

461
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:20,840
So I invite you to reflect upon those questions. Maybe hit pause on whatever service you're

462
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:30,480
listening to this on. And then we can go back to the interview.

463
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:38,400
Yeah, I like what you said there, the primacy of relationship, almost as her, would you

464
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:42,800
say that that was her almost mode of being as a leader?

465
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:48,800
Yeah. And I think as a leader, it's not always easy. I mean, in your life as a leader, you're

466
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:55,560
going to make many, many hard calls. One of the things that I think a good leader, and

467
00:52:55,560 --> 00:53:01,760
especially a good Franciscan leader does is think as deeply as possible about how do I

468
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:07,920
make that call and still have a relationship. And let's say the call is I'm telling the

469
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:15,720
person your job is over. Thank you for your service, but this is not working out. Can

470
00:53:15,720 --> 00:53:20,480
I do that in such a way that I can bump into that person in the grocery store a month from

471
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:26,440
now and we say, hello, glad to see you. How are you doing? Doesn't always work out because

472
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:30,760
the other person has to have some of that reciprocity.

473
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:38,240
I also think sometimes you have to be willing to switch channels as a leader of when am

474
00:53:38,240 --> 00:53:45,120
I sitting in my leader chair with this person and when am I entering into the community?

475
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:52,000
So example would be college president, the faculty senate has just voted down something

476
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:58,660
I think is really important. I'm mad as hops. Senate president comes in, I say, come on,

477
00:53:58,660 --> 00:54:03,480
you know that, well, yes, sister, but we couldn't get the most, you know, on and on. So we argue

478
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:10,400
and I say, I'm not done, I'm bringing it back. 30 minutes later, where am I? The reception

479
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:17,320
for retiring faculty. So now I walk in and I'm, hey, congratulations, this is a lovely

480
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:22,780
party, congratulations to the retirees. So you learn, you know, I could stay away and

481
00:54:22,780 --> 00:54:31,400
show how mad I am. But if I show up and this is not about our work on the legislation I

482
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:37,360
proposed, this is about honoring our colleagues. What a great thing to be doing today. But

483
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:43,760
that's not easy and you don't always have the spiritual or psychic energy to do it.

484
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:48,640
Yeah, it takes a lot of humility, right? To be able to like some would describe it as

485
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:52,800
compartmentalization, but I think it's way spiritually deeper than that in the sense

486
00:54:52,800 --> 00:55:00,040
that like you're, you're letting go, you have the humility to let go of your own agenda.

487
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:05,800
This thing that didn't go the way you wanted it to go. Absolutely. And you dare to give,

488
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:11,800
to give of yourself to this primacy of relationship. That's right. You know, like let's lift others

489
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:17,080
up. That's what today is about, is about lifting others up. And Steven, it's in a time of people

490
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:22,160
who are very cynical about this sort of thing. Somebody said, what a phony, my God, she was

491
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:28,640
just in the early in basing. But you know, it's like, that's a, that's the risk you run.

492
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:36,720
And I think if you are consistently trying to manage the leadership functions, which

493
00:55:36,720 --> 00:55:43,280
differ every hour, one moment you're called upon to be a decision maker, the next year

494
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:48,680
standing in a funeral home, the next year at a meeting with, you know, all the presidents

495
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:56,480
of your County, you have to keep moving with different speeds and with different sets of

496
00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:03,480
rules. So having some of that inner flexibility is a big gift and you can learn it from others

497
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:10,160
as well. And it's sadly the thing that is lacking in American politics today.

498
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:15,880
Absolutely. And that, that brings me to my next question is, you know, sticking with

499
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:23,320
Clarion leadership and the culture that she helped to facilitate at the San Damiano, the

500
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:30,080
monastery there. I mean, it was very democratic in a lot of ways, correct? Where every voice

501
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:34,920
is heard, no matter your social status in this, you know, we keep coming back to it,

502
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:40,480
this primacy of relationship. That's what was most important. Like status, status goes

503
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:46,920
out, like, let me hear your voice. Talk about the culture she helped create there and what

504
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:51,440
makes it unique because would you say democratic is the right word?

505
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:57,860
I think we could say proto democratic and we need to be careful because of course, right

506
00:56:57,860 --> 00:57:05,960
now we live a very fraught version of that, but I would say she and Francis are part of

507
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:14,760
a shift in consciousness in Europe, in Western Europe about the difference between a hierarchical

508
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:21,880
society where only the wealthy, the landed, the royal have prerogatives. And if you're

509
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:29,160
at the bottom of that pyramid, you just hope to die in your bed and maybe get to purgatory.

510
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:38,400
I mean, heaven was even considered a big stretch. So you had very little agency and no political

511
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:46,080
power. What is happening is that is coming into question and it's coming into question,

512
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:52,600
a variety of forces are making that happen. But one of the things is the rising importance

513
00:57:52,600 --> 00:58:01,960
of trade and finance and commerce. And as certain men and some women start to specialize as

514
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:10,480
bankers, as money lenders, as people who run a business, whether that business is the making

515
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:21,040
of fine silks or brewing or leatherworks or ironworks, those persons start to achieve

516
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:28,000
a status that is not based on where they were born or their family name. It's based on they

517
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:37,900
provide a service without which we can't reorganize in this area. We need all of these services.

518
00:58:37,900 --> 00:58:45,360
And so and then they learn from the Benedictines. I mean, this idea that you bring everybody

519
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:54,120
together, you listen to everybody, even the youngest is very rash. It's very new. But

520
00:58:54,120 --> 00:59:00,320
the Benedictines have this wisdom that you may not get the decision you want right away,

521
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:07,420
but you stay at it until there's been enough discussion, enough thought, enough prayer

522
00:59:07,420 --> 00:59:17,320
that eventually 99% of the time you will get harmony. And so I think we're not always very

523
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:24,080
good about acknowledging how much we've learned from our predecessors, the Benedictines, and

524
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:31,720
brought it over into the Franciscan movement. But there's an enormous wisdom there. And

525
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:38,040
the way that the Benedictines have survived longer than we have.

526
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:43,440
Can you go deeper into that notion of listening to everybody as a core component of leadership

527
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:45,560
or Clarion leadership in this context?

528
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:51,120
I think in Claire's case and in Francis in the beginning, listening to everybody wasn't

529
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:58,920
hard. Everybody was right there. You rang the bell, everybody showed up, you talk. So

530
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:07,920
in one sense, the call to give everybody a chance to be heard was also supported by size

531
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:16,840
and architecture. What happens when now you have, let's say on the side of Francis, hundreds,

532
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:22,520
thousands of men, men who have joined the Franciscan Brotherhood and never laid eyes

533
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:30,240
on him. You have to start calling people together periodically with instructions. We will come

534
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:35,760
together at Pentecost and we will meet down in Assisi and we will build little straw huts

535
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:43,400
and we will gather there. So in Claire's case, it never changes. It's always just the women

536
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:51,040
under the roof with her. Now other monasteries are following her example, but they don't

537
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:57,280
live slavishly because they're different women in different places. So you have a diversity

538
01:00:57,280 --> 01:01:04,200
even with the early Claire monasteries. And with Francis, the diversity arises because

539
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:12,760
distance, different cultures, the needs of the friars change. The ones who were up in

540
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:17,320
Germany are coming back and saying, we can't get through another German winter unless we

541
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:29,960
can have sandals and socks and a warmer blanket. So the structuring to hear others. And I would

542
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:39,360
say that, isn't it very interesting that just a few weeks ago, we were all just tied up

543
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:48,280
in knots over will everyone who wants to vote vote and will their vote be counted? Unthinkable

544
01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:54,480
that we should even have a worry. Unthinkable that we should have a worry. But when that

545
01:01:54,480 --> 01:02:02,200
trust starts to erode, we really better set up. And let's take Claire and Francis as good

546
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:12,040
models that you never give up on providing the space for that voice. It's critical.

547
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:16,120
That's beautiful. And I know we're coming up on the hour here. Anything I left out or

548
01:02:16,120 --> 01:02:23,560
anything else you would like to add, particularly as it pertains to what you just said about,

549
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:30,480
here's this moment that we're all in right now. There is this mistrust of institutions.

550
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:37,440
It feels like chaos a lot of times. However, if I'm hearing you correctly, I mean, you

551
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:43,500
I love the phrase you just used that creating the structure to hear others. Yes. That's

552
01:02:43,500 --> 01:02:49,600
very difficult to do. Steven, it is. But what I would say is that I am very impressed by

553
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:55,880
the fact that in these last few weeks, what have submerged and you hear it in different

554
01:02:55,880 --> 01:03:03,360
media are precisely what I just talked about structures being created by people who want

555
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:09,840
to hear each other across a great divide. And I think that may be one of the things

556
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:17,040
we're called to do in the next decade is to be very intentional about finding ways that

557
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:23,840
we especially those of us who carry the name Franciscan, is there a conversation circle?

558
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:32,320
Is there a church group? Is there the Association of Women Vote, the League of Women Voters?

559
01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:38,840
Is there somewhere within reach of who I am, where I am, where I work, a place where people

560
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:43,920
are working? Because you don't just come into a room and do this. You need skill. You need

561
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:52,280
facilitation. You need a constant self critique in order to catch yourself when you shut down

562
01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:59,600
when the other person starts instead of keeping that door open. But there are people specializing

563
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:06,000
in this work. And I think this is their hour and we need to look for them or help create

564
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:12,800
them, mentor people who are willing. And we do have organizations at regional and national

565
01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:19,080
levels where I think we can plug in and say, we can't do everything, but you know, it's

566
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:24,880
that whole notion of you think globally, but you act locally. And so trying in our own

567
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:29,200
locales to find ways to have those conversations.

568
01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:36,460
Yeah. Yeah. One of my favorite things about the Franciscan tradition is all throughout

569
01:04:36,460 --> 01:04:42,000
the stories of Francis, which of course goes back to how he was following Christ, like

570
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:51,180
you said, but it's just radically affirming the other time and time again, to the point

571
01:04:51,180 --> 01:04:56,920
where it becomes so uncomfortable. And you're like, I'm letting, I'm letting go of, you

572
01:04:56,920 --> 01:05:04,160
know, every preconceived notion I had here. I'm letting go like Christ is in this person.

573
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:10,360
And therefore there's something to learn. Even if I vehemently disagree on the surface.

574
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:15,720
I have a cousin who belongs to a Methodist congregation that's doing a lot of work in

575
01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:22,680
this area, but we were talking about how they have dealt with the various exclusions that

576
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:30,600
we experience, LGBTQ persons, excluding people of a certain perhaps political persuasion

577
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:36,840
or in their case, you know, the kind of Christian nationalist evangelicals. And she said, our

578
01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:46,800
pastor says over and over, you will never meet a person for whom Jesus did not die.

579
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:54,160
That stops me cold. Yeah. If I can look and say, Oh my God, Jesus died for you as much

580
01:05:54,160 --> 01:06:00,880
as for me, I better shut up and listen. You know? Yeah. Why does that, why does that move

581
01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:06,000
you so much? It's a really beautiful notion. Because it flips the whole way of thinking

582
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:13,280
about that other person to what does Jesus think of this person? What does Jesus want?

583
01:06:13,280 --> 01:06:18,920
Of course, I think Jesus wants what I want. But if I can let go of that for a minute and

584
01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:25,100
just say, but I just met this person and Jesus has been loving him or her since birth and

585
01:06:25,100 --> 01:06:36,600
loving them through life. And so I better figure out how to show respect for that.

586
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:42,320
Yeah. It's such a powerful moment in the conversation, isn't it? And I would consider, you know,

587
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:49,240
maybe pausing for a second and really think about what Sister Margaret just said. What

588
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:55,800
rises up within you as you hold her words and focus your gaze upon them, as you consider

589
01:06:55,800 --> 01:07:03,720
her words, as you contemplate her words. I'd like to read this famous passage from Conjectures

590
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:10,160
of a Guilty Bystander by Thomas Merton about his mystical moment at the corner of Forth

591
01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:15,680
and Walnut in downtown Louisville, where he felt mysteriously connected to all these passers

592
01:07:15,680 --> 01:07:23,120
by who he did not even know. And perhaps whether you've heard this or not, maybe it can become

593
01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:32,680
new to both of us as we meditate upon this passage and in meditating upon it to allow

594
01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:41,240
Sister Margaret's words to plant themselves deeper than our own hearts. So Merton writes,

595
01:07:41,240 --> 01:07:47,560
and again, he's writing about all these people walking by him, all these people he's observing

596
01:07:47,560 --> 01:07:54,160
in the middle of this bustling downtown. And Merton says, then it was as if I suddenly

597
01:07:54,160 --> 01:07:59,540
saw the secret beauty of their hearts, the depths of their hearts where neither sin nor

598
01:07:59,540 --> 01:08:05,600
desire nor self-knowledge can reach, the core of their reality, the person that each one

599
01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:11,920
is in God's eyes. If only they could all see themselves as they really are. If only

600
01:08:11,920 --> 01:08:19,220
we could see each other that way all the time. There would be no more war, no more hatred,

601
01:08:19,220 --> 01:08:25,800
no more cruelty, no more greed. I suppose the big problem would be that we would fall

602
01:08:25,800 --> 01:08:32,480
down and worship each other. But this cannot be seen, only believed and understood by a

603
01:08:32,480 --> 01:08:38,920
peculiar gift. Merton goes on, at the center of our being is a point of nothingness, which

604
01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:44,960
is untouched by sin and by illusion. It's a point of pure truth, a point or spark, which

605
01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:50,600
belongs entirely to God, which is never at our disposal from which God disposes of our

606
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:56,160
lives, which is inaccessible to the fantasies of our own mind or the brutalities of our

607
01:08:56,160 --> 01:09:05,000
own will. This little point of nothingness and of absolute poverty is the pure glory of God in us.

608
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:11,840
Merton continues, it is like a pure diamond blazing with the invisible light of heaven.

609
01:09:11,840 --> 01:09:18,000
It is in every body. And if we could see it, we would see these billions of points of light

610
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:24,800
coming together in the face and blaze of a sun that would make all the darkness and cruelty

611
01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:32,320
of life vanish completely. I have no program for this seeing. It is only given, but the

612
01:09:32,320 --> 01:09:35,120
gate of heaven is everywhere.

613
01:09:35,120 --> 01:09:46,240
I think, Stephen, that one of the things that we don't have much opportunity to do today

614
01:09:46,240 --> 01:09:54,600
is to be in groups or settings, church, country, you know, ethnic group, although some ethnic

615
01:09:54,600 --> 01:10:00,440
groups and our Black Americans are doing a lot more of this, where we come together to

616
01:10:00,440 --> 01:10:08,680
celebrate what we hold together as sacred. And that is the reason we should go to the

617
01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:15,040
trouble of trying to be in the same room and trying to find a united way forward. And so

618
01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:20,880
I do think that we need those celebrations. I talked to friends who were at the Eucharistic

619
01:10:20,880 --> 01:10:29,160
Congress, for example, and they went not necessarily thinking it was going to be a real good time.

620
01:10:29,160 --> 01:10:37,040
As it turns out, they were the only religious women not wearing a habit. And that became

621
01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:44,560
the point of encounter. People coming up and saying, can I talk to you? What is it like

622
01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:50,340
for you? I mean, this is other religious in habit who have always assumed like, oh, shame

623
01:10:50,340 --> 01:10:55,680
on them, you know, they're not wearing a holy habit. And Sister said to me, it was a real

624
01:10:55,680 --> 01:11:01,920
conversion experience because we care about the same things and we're expressing it differently,

625
01:11:01,920 --> 01:11:08,160
but we could talk it out together. And so those are the moments where they could have

626
01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:12,600
those conversations because there are three days in this center and walking back and forth

627
01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:17,520
and going to Eucharist together and to different devotions. But you have to be willing to cross

628
01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:20,800
over and place yourself there too.

629
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:26,400
Yeah. Yeah. And it does remind me of some of what some of Pope Francis's writings of,

630
01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:31,760
you know, this culture of encounter he's encouraging. I know that's big in Franciscanism.

631
01:11:31,760 --> 01:11:32,760
Exactly.

632
01:11:32,760 --> 01:11:40,360
Like be humble enough to enter into this encounter is messy and chaotic as it may be.

633
01:11:40,360 --> 01:11:41,360
Yes. Yes.

634
01:11:41,360 --> 01:11:43,840
And Claire did that. I mean,

635
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:50,600
she did. But I also think we want to be careful. There's a bit of a romanticizing of chaos

636
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:55,160
theory in our talks. And I'm talking about, you know, the chaos theory that comes from

637
01:11:55,160 --> 01:11:59,600
the sciences. And there was a lot of writing and talking about that about a decade ago

638
01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:04,800
among religious. And the truth of the matter is this is a very tough time for religious

639
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:10,440
congregations who are experiencing serious decline, trying to think through, but doing

640
01:12:10,440 --> 01:12:18,320
it and doing it with a lot of assistance and smarts how to work through the next decade

641
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:25,680
of existence. And yet it's very possible sometimes when people are feeling stressed and they

642
01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:30,240
don't have good answers to say, well, we've got to embrace the chaos. And I'm like, if

643
01:12:30,240 --> 01:12:34,400
I'm 90 years old and I just need to know, I'll have a roof over my head and I'll get

644
01:12:34,400 --> 01:12:41,280
my medicines every day. Don't tell me to love chaos. I need some assurances, you know, that

645
01:12:41,280 --> 01:12:46,840
of basic human safety, security, they're real primal questions we have to pay attention

646
01:12:46,840 --> 01:12:47,840
to.

647
01:12:47,840 --> 01:12:52,600
That's a great point. I'm glad you brought that up here toward the end is that, you know,

648
01:12:52,600 --> 01:13:00,880
I mean, that primacy of relationship, that creating a structure to hear others, it almost

649
01:13:00,880 --> 01:13:06,800
contains, it almost either eliminates the chaos or contains it because you're affirming

650
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:07,800
each other.

651
01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:14,320
Right. Yeah, right. And I think, you know, there's a certain level of chaos in our society

652
01:13:14,320 --> 01:13:19,480
and our world and our church. You can't avoid it. And avoiding it leads to that kind of

653
01:13:19,480 --> 01:13:25,080
fundamentalism, like, you know, this is the only way. But I also think we can play with

654
01:13:25,080 --> 01:13:31,160
it in a way that is not helpful, especially to certain personalities who just become more

655
01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:33,000
defensive and withdrawn.

656
01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:38,800
Yes, absolutely. Well, this has been so great, Sister Margaret, I want to be respectful of

657
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:42,880
your time. Can I ask you one more question and then I'll let you go?

658
01:13:42,880 --> 01:13:44,320
Okay, why not?

659
01:13:44,320 --> 01:13:49,960
So yeah, I was just wondering, I mean, you're a world renowned scholar on St. Clair and

660
01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:56,640
what impact is she having on your life today at this spiritual part of your own journey?

661
01:13:56,640 --> 01:13:58,120
What impact is she having?

662
01:13:58,120 --> 01:14:05,420
Well, one of the things is, you know, I've had a lot of health issues lately. And she

663
01:14:05,420 --> 01:14:14,640
in her role, as Francis and his, is so precise about caring for the sick. And you look back

664
01:14:14,640 --> 01:14:19,920
and you think, why did they spend so much ink on it? You know, I mean, yeah, somebody's

665
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:29,120
sick, you do. Because in a big monastic setting, the care for the sick was assumed. There was

666
01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:35,280
a place the sick went, there was a brother or sister infirmary, there was a nerve garden,

667
01:14:35,280 --> 01:14:42,360
there was somebody who knew medicinal arts. But if your life is wandering, being on the

668
01:14:42,360 --> 01:14:48,280
road preaching, no fixed abode, or in the case of the sisters, just this one little

669
01:14:48,280 --> 01:14:57,160
place with its little garden, and you become sick, what are our options? And both of them

670
01:14:57,160 --> 01:15:03,120
go to real trouble to say how the sick are to be cared for, that they're given things,

671
01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:11,560
extra things, whether it's clothing or food or health. And so I have experienced that.

672
01:15:11,560 --> 01:15:18,800
I've experienced that now for almost a decade, of sisters who've been so generous to help

673
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:26,360
meet my needs that I couldn't have met without their assistance. Really, really humbling.

674
01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:33,620
I would say the other is that I have had years of experience working with the different branches

675
01:15:33,620 --> 01:15:39,440
of the Franciscan Brothers. And I'm a little more distanced from that now that I'm no longer

676
01:15:39,440 --> 01:15:45,320
in physically at St. Paul and Adventure. But it's really important for me to keep those

677
01:15:45,320 --> 01:15:52,480
relationships alive and to keep working together to be a model in the church of men and women

678
01:15:52,480 --> 01:15:57,320
who follow a shared path. So I think those would be two.

679
01:15:57,320 --> 01:16:04,260
Yeah. Well, you certainly are an incredible model of Franciscan spirituality, not only

680
01:16:04,260 --> 01:16:09,880
in your writing, but in how you live and lead the way in that regard. So thank you for your

681
01:16:09,880 --> 01:16:10,880
time, Sister Margaret.

682
01:16:10,880 --> 01:16:14,520
But you catch me on a good day, Stephen, every now and then. Every now and then. But thank

683
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:16,240
you very much, Stephen. This was a great conversation.

684
01:16:16,240 --> 01:16:19,080
Let's catch each other on a bad day. We'll really have some fun.

685
01:16:19,080 --> 01:16:20,080
Ooh, yes.

686
01:16:20,080 --> 01:16:23,680
Well, thanks for coming on Off the Page, Sister Margaret.

687
01:16:23,680 --> 01:16:32,520
Okay. Good to be with you, Stephen. Take care. God bless. Bye-bye.

688
01:16:32,520 --> 01:16:39,200
Once again, that was Sister Margaret Carney. Sister Margaret's biography on St. Clair,

689
01:16:39,200 --> 01:16:44,960
Light of Assisi, is available in print, ebook, and audiobook. And if you're interested in

690
01:16:44,960 --> 01:16:50,100
donating to our Rebuild God's Church initiative to help us create more content like this,

691
01:16:50,100 --> 01:16:58,160
you can visit franciscanmedia.org slash rebuilding hyphen gods hyphen church. It's truly an honor

692
01:16:58,160 --> 01:17:03,800
and it's a joy to hopefully create content that accompanies you on your spiritual journey.

693
01:17:03,800 --> 01:17:09,960
So thank you for your support. Thank you for tuning in. Thank you to Sister Margaret. And

694
01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:15,920
final thank you to Father Cyprian Concilio for providing the music for this episode.

695
01:17:15,920 --> 01:17:28,360
This is Stephen Copeland signing off. Peace and all good.