1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:16,660 Welcome to Off the Page. I'm Stephen Copeland. It is the start of a new year, a time when 2 00:00:16,660 --> 00:00:22,660 there is much talk about personal change and transition. But the truth is that change and 3 00:00:22,660 --> 00:00:29,280 transition are fundamental parts of life, whether wanted or unwanted. As St. Francis 4 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:34,400 said as he neared his death, let us begin again, for until now we have done nothing. 5 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:41,160 In the Christian tradition we are being constantly invited into newness, into conversion, 6 00:00:41,160 --> 00:00:47,200 into letting go, into allowing God to work in us and through us so that we can awaken 7 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:53,240 more and more to what Thomas Merton called our true self. Oftentimes there is no greater 8 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:59,040 teacher for the soul than transition itself or liminal spaces of life in which the only 9 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:05,800 route forward is to awaken more to who we already are as we wait, as we let go, as we 10 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:13,960 discern. Today's guest is Dr. Daniel P. Horan. Dan is a professor of philosophy, religious studies, 11 00:01:13,960 --> 00:01:19,720 and theology and director of the Center for the Study of Spirituality at St. Mary's College in 12 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:25,560 Notre Dame, Indiana. He is also affiliated professor of spirituality at the Oblate School 13 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:31,480 of Theology in San Antonio, Texas. A columnist for the National Catholic Reporter, he is the 14 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:37,160 author or editor of more than 14 books. Three of those books were published by Franciscan media 15 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:43,320 and are available in our store. Those books are God is Not Fair and Other Reasons for Gratitude, 16 00:01:43,320 --> 00:01:50,520 Dating God, and The Last Words of Jesus. As a public intellectual, Dan recently sent shockwaves 17 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:55,440 through the church with his announcement in his regular National Catholic Reporter column that 18 00:01:55,440 --> 00:02:02,520 he was leaving religious life. The headline was, Always a Franciscan in Spirit, but No Longer a 19 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:09,720 Friar. The column was fittingly published on the Feast of the Transitus or Transitus, when Franciscans 20 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:16,080 celebrate the passing of St. Francis of Assisi from earthly life to eternal life. In this 21 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:21,160 conversation, we discussed the landscape of transition and how we can listen to God in 22 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:28,080 these liminal, sacred spaces of our lives. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. We 23 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:33,720 talk about change, transition, discernment, ambiguity, identity, and Merton's notion of the 24 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:39,600 true self. It is my pleasure to share with you this interview with Dan Horan. But first, 25 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:48,320 here's a message from our sponsor. Earning a Master of Theological Studies with the Franciscan 26 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:54,880 Theology lens is now possible anywhere in the world. The Master's program at the Franciscan 27 00:02:54,880 --> 00:03:01,240 School of Theology offers a blend of academic engagement and spiritual reflection. You can 28 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:06,680 learn at your own pace while connecting with fellow students and instructors in a respectful 29 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:13,480 and down-to-earth environment. Embark on a 24-month mutually transformative journey with the 30 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:21,400 world-renowned faculty and instructors from FST. The Master of Theological Studies, Franciscan 31 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:29,880 Theology is 100% online. You can complete it in 24 months and it is fully accredited. I actually 32 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:36,440 just completed this program and it's amazing. So I highly recommend it. To learn more, you can visit 33 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:45,960 theologicalstudies.sandiego.edu. Again, that's theologicalstudies.sandiego.edu. 34 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:55,400 Dan Horan, thank you for joining the Off the Page podcast. 35 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,160 Stephen, it's so good to be with you again. It's been a while. 36 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:06,160 It has. No, it's great to see your face. So I was wondering, you just made a pretty big 37 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:13,040 announcement through your column on NCR and there's a lot we could talk about today, but as a 38 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:19,240 starting point, could you begin by talking about this recent decision of yours to transition away 39 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:23,600 from religious life and what may have been the catalyst behind that decision for you? 40 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:28,840 Yeah, I'm happy to talk about it, especially within the context of the Franciscan family here, 41 00:04:28,840 --> 00:04:34,760 Franciscan media and to our Franciscan-hearted listeners. I mean, I think the important thing, 42 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:39,680 and you named it, is there's a transition, a transition away from religious life but not 43 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:46,040 from Franciscan identity or from the Franciscan family more broadly conceived. In a nutshell, 44 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:52,640 this is a process that has been ongoing for some time. As all Christians are called in baptism, 45 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:58,160 we're meant to be in a spirit of ongoing conversion and discernment. The Second Vatican 46 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:03,880 Council calls all the baptized to be those who interpret the signs of the times in the light of 47 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:10,360 the gospel. That means that periodically we have to examine our lives. Francis of Assisi did 48 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:16,840 himself. He started off as a fairly comfortable, to use an anachronistic term, middle-classed, 49 00:05:16,840 --> 00:05:23,440 fairly wealthy young man in the Umbrian town of Assisi and then had a number of life experiences 50 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:31,760 in his early 20s that led him to reevaluate. Then in the years that he was unwittingly founding the 51 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:37,240 Franciscan orders, he also had a number of transitions, a number of periods of discernment. 52 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:43,880 So I say all that because this is something that has been going on for some time. I entered the 53 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:52,280 first order of the Franciscans about 20 years ago. It has been a really blessed and productive and 54 00:05:52,280 --> 00:05:59,060 life-giving and inspiring journey. But in the last number of years, I have found myself, I think, 55 00:05:59,060 --> 00:06:02,680 like a lot of people, I can't remember if I mentioned this in the column or not, maybe I did, 56 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:09,280 but the period of those early months of the pandemic where all of us were locked down and 57 00:06:09,280 --> 00:06:15,400 people were doing a lot of introspective evaluation, that was a time for me as well to think about, 58 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:21,000 where is the Spirit leading me, where is God calling me, to attend to the different aspects 59 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:27,840 of my own prayer life and emotional life in conversation, in prayer, in dialogue, in 60 00:06:27,840 --> 00:06:33,120 professional counseling as well, kind of working through various things like we all do and trying 61 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:38,400 to get a sense of where is God calling me right now. And to be quite honest with you, Stephen, 62 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:45,040 it was really sort of surprising to me at various points because I thought, here I am, I've been a 63 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:52,080 friar for at that point almost two decades, heading that way. And it just didn't necessarily 64 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:59,000 occur to me in the immediate term that maybe God would be calling me to a different path. I think 65 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:05,120 they're parallel paths. I think they are paths that are not 180s or something like that. I want 66 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:10,480 to make that clear to folks. I know one person kind of ingest, but was talking with me, he said, 67 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:14,760 oh, are you renouncing the faith or something? I said, I'm not renouncing anything. I'm embracing 68 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:20,120 all of the Spirit and in surprising ways. And I mean, I go back again to Francis of Assisi, 69 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:25,320 who in his testament near the end of his life makes clear that he did not set out to do what 70 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:30,280 he's best known for. He said, and the Lord gave me brothers. I didn't ask for these guys. The Spirit 71 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:37,200 led. So I mean, that's where I find myself. I don't mean to throw my NCR editors under the bus, 72 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:42,160 but this has come up a couple of times where the title of the column isn't actually what the original 73 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:47,880 title was. They added one word or I guess two words, one with a preposition, where they said, 74 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:52,920 you know, always a Franciscan in spirit. The original title was always a Franciscan, but no 75 00:07:52,920 --> 00:08:00,680 more. Because I want to make that clear. I am a Franciscan. That is my charismatic identity. That 76 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:06,840 is where my spirituality is grounded. It is what inspires my own life. The question is, and I think 77 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:13,960 in the Franciscan world, we have this real blessing of multiple parallel paths in one family. We have 78 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,960 secular Franciscans. We have third order regular. We have the poor Clare sisters. We have the three 79 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:23,080 branches of the first order. And so in many ways, I feel like God may be calling me here in this 80 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:29,800 moment to just shift gears, change lanes as it were within that same Franciscan community moving 81 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:36,760 forward. So that's really how this has come to pass. And then in conversation with my provincial 82 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:43,000 and with my brothers in leadership of the OFM province in the US, it made a lot of sense for 83 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:49,160 me to share this publicly and to share it personally with the brothers in fraternity in 84 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:53,960 the whole province. The same time that that NCR column went out publicly, a letter that I wrote, 85 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:59,960 a personal letter I wrote to the brothers also was sent out. Because on the one hand, practically 86 00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:06,200 speaking, for better and maybe for worse at times, I'm a fairly well-known Catholic religious, 87 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:11,880 you know, and so as a public person, I couldn't just, you know, disappear for a while without a 88 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:17,720 lot of people getting concerned and raising questions. And, you know, nature abhors a vacuum, 89 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:22,600 so people would come up with all kinds of schemes and themes and theories. But to be very transparent 90 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:28,040 because I have felt blessed by the encouragement and support of the friars and of friends and a 91 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:35,080 family and of all sorts of folks. And to talk to the brothers too, you know, people leave religious 92 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:40,840 life for lots of reasons at different stages. And people enter religious life for lots of reasons 93 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:45,960 at different stages, younger, older, middle-aged, what have you. And I wanted to make sure that they 94 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:52,600 heard from me and that the public heard from me as well about this process and that it's all good, 95 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:57,160 it's all graced. But yeah, I know that for some people and maybe for some of our listeners, 96 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:02,200 it was a bit of a shock. So I also want to acknowledge that. Well, I mean, it's your journey 97 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:07,640 and that's the beauty of it. You know, I mean, I'm glad you're not leaving us Franciscans behind 98 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:13,160 because your work has had a huge impact on my own heart and my own mind. But even if you were, 99 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:17,800 I mean, that's your journey. And I mean, the spirit guides each of us in different ways. 100 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:27,320 I was curious. I mean, I think transition is such a, we all have transitions, right? We all have 101 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:34,600 crossroads. And you published your NCR column on the transitus. You know, when Francis is 102 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:41,400 leaving this life and moving on to the next, what did you learn in your own discernment? Or you 103 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:46,040 talked about a period of examination. What did you learn about yourself during that time? 104 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:52,920 I think one thing that I learned actually ties to that feast day that we celebrate in the Franciscan 105 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:59,400 family, which is, as I mentioned just a moment ago, I think certainly in the early months and 106 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:05,720 years of this discernment, and it goes back to the pandemic and even a bit before that, I think I was 107 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:11,480 really struggling to make sense of where I was hearing the spirit calling me and kind of a 108 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:16,680 resistance to that. I think in large part because I was operating with this assumption that was 109 00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:24,200 really quite binary, that was kind of either or, that was this or that. And I think I personally 110 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:31,000 struggled with making sense of, well, how could it be that for so long I have felt God leading me on 111 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:37,560 this path as a friar minor, as a ministerial priest in the Catholic Church, and now this, you know, 112 00:11:37,560 --> 00:11:42,040 we talked earlier about switching paths, but at that time it just seemed like it was an either 113 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:49,640 or, that it's like all or nothing. And I think the feast of the transitus, right, the spirituality 114 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:55,960 that undergirds that for Francis of Assisi is a kind of pulling the rug out from beneath these 115 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:02,120 assumptions that we have. And he does this most clearly with the kind of most radical either or, 116 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:08,520 life and death, you know? And so people think of death as the end, as an absolute, as the opposite 117 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:16,440 or as the negation of life. And yet he embraced his sister bodily death, right, this ultimate 118 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:22,600 either or in a spirit of transition, calling it a transitus, as a passage, as a transition, as a 119 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:28,200 development, indeed a change, right? Life is changed, it is no longer the same, it is different, 120 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:33,640 but it is not antithetical to what came before, it is not a negation of that or an elimination of it. 121 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:38,120 In some ways it might be a building upon it, right? If we think about God calling us into the 122 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:42,440 communion of saints, it's a deepening of relationship across time and space that we 123 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:47,880 don't always get to share in the same way in our earthly lives. And so coincidentally, I should say 124 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:55,080 this too, that it wasn't even my, like, oh you know what, October 3rd, this is when I want this 125 00:12:55,080 --> 00:13:02,120 column to come out. Coincidentally, it was my regularly scheduled publication date. And so part 126 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:07,560 of the discernment, once it became clear to me, after many years and then months of reflection 127 00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:13,320 and prayer and counseling and spiritual direction and consultation, you know, it was becoming clear 128 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:19,880 that this is where I was being led and this is where the transitus, you know, the transition 129 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:25,240 was going. I happened to, the question then became, well how are we going to convey this? You know, 130 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:30,600 how would I share this information? And it was at that point a few, you know, I would say a little 131 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:36,360 less than two months out, and seeing that, oh my gosh, I have a column that will be published on 132 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:43,560 this day anyway. And so I went to, you know, after that was clear that that was just like 133 00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:50,120 theologically and spiritually just too good to be true, I talked with a number of folks, including 134 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:55,400 the publisher and executive editor at NCR and said, hey, I just want to let you know this is 135 00:13:55,400 --> 00:14:02,280 what I'm thinking about. I also, if this isn't the right venue for that, you know, let me know. But 136 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:08,600 they were very, very supportive and really appreciated the kind of trust to use this, 137 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:13,320 what I would call like media real estate, right? As a columnist, I get this chunk of space in 138 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:21,000 both virtual space, but also on a print newspaper twice a month. And so I felt really honored that 139 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:26,200 they were so encouraging and supportive. And the folks who have reached out to me since that 140 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:32,760 publication have been just overwhelmingly the same. Like I've heard a couple naysayers, but 141 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:37,320 most people, I mean, I'm talking about hundreds and thousands of messages, not hundreds of thousands, 142 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:43,480 but hundreds and thousands, depending on the means of communication, have been really, 143 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:51,160 really encouraging, really supportive, really, you know, prayerfully engaged with what I've shared and 144 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,680 sharing their own experiences, which has been really a blessing as well. 145 00:14:54,680 --> 00:15:01,400 Yeah. You talked about, um, maybe it was around COVID or a little before, you know, I mean, 146 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:08,040 but you talked about that feeling of the spirit kind of prompting or, and you're just kind of 147 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:14,200 this out of nowhere, like, Oh my gosh, like, what, what are you doing, God? You know, and I, 148 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:20,680 I think we've all felt that, um, in different ways. What would you suggest to people that 149 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:29,080 may be listening and feel that kind of feel a similar prompting of, Hey, you're being called 150 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:37,000 in a different direction that perhaps you didn't expect your life is maybe going to unfold in a way 151 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:44,040 that you did not foresee. Yeah. I think in my case, it was less of a, uh, like St. Paul, uh, 152 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:49,960 on the road to Damascus kind of like big immediate sort of conversion experience or like epiphany. 153 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:51,960 You didn't see the risen Christ. 154 00:15:53,400 --> 00:16:00,520 Not in any visual way. That's for sure. Um, no, no, nor did I have, you know, Thomas Merton at 155 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:05,880 fourth and Walnut, that great epiphany. Um, it was much more subtle, um, maybe which is in keeping 156 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:11,800 with, uh, the Franciscan tradition and our great subtle Dr. John Donskotis, but you know, I, 157 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:19,240 the way I would describe the kind of early awareness of the spirit's movement in my life 158 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:24,600 in this way that, that I wasn't necessarily expecting was something analogous to the old 159 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:30,360 Testament story about the prophet in the cave, you know, who is told to wait there and God will 160 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,840 reach out. And then there's, you know, the thunder and the lightning and there's the fire and God was 161 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:39,320 not in those things, but then there was this quiet whisper in the silence and that's where God has 162 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:45,560 found. And I think one of the things I learned to answer your question is to attend to those things 163 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:54,040 in your heart, in your prayer, in your life that, that surprise you or that seem to be calling to 164 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:59,480 you, because I think sometimes it is actually very, very subtle. And without getting into all kinds 165 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:05,880 of great detail, I do hope at some point to have the space and time, um, to, to reflect on this, 166 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:11,080 probably in writing and in more detail, but you know, there were things happening in my life, 167 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:18,280 in my life, um, really good things in fact, but, but in that, in that experience of, of ministry, 168 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:23,640 of, of teaching, of writing, of working, of, of being in relationship with others in, in pastoral 169 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:30,520 ministry, there are these, I only in retrospect, can I see maybe the spirit's presence in ways that 170 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:36,200 at the time did seem kind of striking, didn't, or I overlooked, right? Like, oh, okay, this makes 171 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:41,960 much more sense after the fact. The other thing I would say is, is to trust God. Um, I've, I've a 172 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:48,120 really good friend who was my roommate in college who also entered religious life with me, um, at 173 00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:53,640 the same time, 20 years ago, he discerned early in formation that, that this wasn't his life and, and 174 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:58,920 left the Franciscan community, subsequently was married, has four kids now, great guy, great family. 175 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,400 Um, but you know, as I was going through this discernment myself, especially in the kind of 176 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:09,560 later stages of, of, you know, maybe the, maybe God is actually leading me on this other path that 177 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:15,480 seems so different from what I had expected. He was able to share some of his own insights as well. 178 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:19,800 And, and one of the things that I think we both, even though very different circumstances, very 179 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:25,080 different periods of time in the order, one of the things that he helped me to see is that the 180 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:30,760 external kind of appearance or perception of somebody is sometimes very, very different than 181 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:37,880 their lived reality. And when that's the case, especially, um, if, if you're somebody in pastoral 182 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:43,400 ministry, somebody as, as a public religious, that sort of thing, especially if you're being 183 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,920 affirmed all the time by people in your ministry, which is of course a sign of God's good work, 184 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:51,880 you know, at present, it can be very confusing because it seems like you're getting mixed 185 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:58,040 messages. And, and one of the things that I found very helpful, um, that he talked about, that we 186 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:02,200 talked about for a while and, and that I've heard other people, I have another friend who's a member 187 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:07,320 of a different religious order who years ago on a different topic said something quite similar, 188 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:12,440 which is this, which is like, at times you might face opposition or confusion or external doubts 189 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:17,320 or disappointments and sadness from others. But if you standing before God, if you are, 190 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:22,040 you know, in prayer, if you're taking this seriously in reflection and can see as you 191 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:27,560 stand before Christ and before God, that, that this is right and you're at peace, then trust that, 192 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:32,280 trust God, you know, and that has been very, very affirming. That's been very encouraging 193 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:37,000 and liberating. And so your question about like, what, what, what advice to offer others or what to 194 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:42,600 relay that I might've learned, I think to take that literally, to take that seriously, that, 195 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:47,640 if you're going to look externally all the time for that affirmation, or is this what I should do 196 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:53,240 or something like that, you know, you're, you're probably not going to be resolved in the process, 197 00:19:53,240 --> 00:20:00,520 to be quite honest. Yeah. As you're talking, the great Merton quote kind of came to my mind 198 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:08,040 to be a sane as to be myself. I love that line. And I mean that, I feel like that gets used in 199 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:13,720 a shallow way sometimes in a way that doesn't integrate the journey, doesn't integrate the 200 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:21,480 discernment, the tough questions, the periods of darkness. But to truly be oneself, it's bringing 201 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:28,920 all these things in. What does that quote mean to you having just journey through this and perhaps 202 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:36,280 what could that mean to others who face a transitus, a period of transition where things are 203 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:42,600 opening up even though it may not feel like that? Yeah, I do love that quote as well. And I think 204 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:48,520 you're exactly right. It can be kind of caricatured, right? And people, the worst way to interpret 205 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:53,000 that in my opinion is to say like, oh, I can just continue doing what I'm doing and who I am and 206 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:58,760 everything is fine. And Merton abstract opposite, right? Yes. And drawing inspiration actually from 207 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:06,840 Francis of Assisi's 19th admonition, Thomas Merton was saying, what it means to be myself is to be 208 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:12,360 my true self. And to borrow language from Francis, what that means is to be who I am in the eyes of 209 00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:19,080 God. So what I am before God that I am and nothing less and nothing more. And I think actually a lot 210 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:25,800 of us spend a lot of time trying to be something other than we are. Merton talks about this in some 211 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:30,920 ways, it is tied to kind of the effects of original sin that we don't trust that we're lovable or 212 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:37,640 likable by God. We also live in a world that's affected by sin. And so we tear each other down, 213 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:42,520 we set up these expectations for one another that are unrealistic and oftentimes unfair, 214 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:49,640 sometimes even dehumanizing. And so that false self or false selves, maybe more accurately that 215 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:56,600 Merton talks about, I think is also something Francis and his followers recognize that who we 216 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:02,280 are before God is all that matters. But in order to get to that identity, in order to recognize it, 217 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:08,200 we have to pursue God. You can't know who we are before God by just living in our own world 218 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:14,680 or kind of consulting with what social media says we are or what have you. And so I think that's 219 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:23,320 really, really key is recognizing that who we are before God is what God is calling us to be. 220 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:28,440 And that if we are pursuing our true selves, and this is something Thomas Merton makes clear, 221 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:34,120 we can never really know our true selves fully, at least not in this world, but we can trust that God 222 00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:41,000 does. And so how do we know we're on the right path? Are we right with God? Are we pursuing God, 223 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:46,840 following God, recognizing God, in dialogue with God, seeing God in the world around us and 224 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:54,440 trusting that? It sounds so simple. I mean, even as I'm hearing myself speak, I'm like, 225 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,920 oh, well, that sounds almost like a platitude, but living it is so much harder, isn't it? 226 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:05,640 We'd like the easier answers. We'd like the direct kind of comments. And that's not typically how God 227 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:13,160 operates. Yeah. Well, for me, it's been difficult to get beneath the layers that you talked about, 228 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:21,160 to go from exterior to interior, because, for example, just because there's this rupture of 229 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:29,560 emotion within me or this dream or, you know, whatever it may be, these magnetic kind of pulls 230 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:38,520 to certain areas or whatever it may be. It's like, okay, that feels very true. And sometimes it is. 231 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:45,080 However, where is this coming from? You know, is this, is this like an egoic thing? Is this, 232 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:50,440 does it come from a place of insecurity or does it come from that place you're talking about where 233 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:56,520 you're really trusting that you're, I love what you said, that you're likable and lovable in God's 234 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:03,240 eyes. That's a, and usually at least for me, and I'd be curious where you're at on this, but 235 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:10,040 for me, I can usually tell whether like where it's coming from on some level, depending on whether 236 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:17,160 it's coming from a place of like peace or desperation, especially creatively for me, like, 237 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:23,080 okay, like, am I really feeling convicted in this thing or is it a desperation of some sort just 238 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:29,240 because, you know, creativity is chaotic? You know what I'm saying? But getting to those deeper levels 239 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:37,880 of, oh, I am who I am and I'm likable and lovable in God's eyes. And now from this groundedness, 240 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,280 I can make a decision. Do you have any thoughts on that? 241 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:46,120 I do. And I really like what you're saying about, you know, maybe some of the signs along the way, 242 00:24:46,120 --> 00:24:52,360 the kind of the signposts as it were. And one of them that I often think about for myself in my 243 00:24:52,360 --> 00:24:58,040 own life, but also in the lives of my friends and colleagues and those I've accompanied in ministry 244 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:04,840 over the years is probably the starkest for me is this kind of what I call discerning the spirit and 245 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:11,400 the uphill battle, which is if you're finding obstacle after obstacle after obstacle, maybe the 246 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:17,000 spirit's trying to tell you something here, right? It doesn't mean that, you know, maybe that is 247 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,680 still what you need to do and you have these obstacles being placed in front of you, right? 248 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:25,080 And we live in a world where lots of different people and lots of different social locations 249 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:30,760 have unfair and unjust obstacles in their way from the outset. But I think in this kind of 250 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:37,240 discernment practice, there's also something to be said about things kind of lining up, maybe not 251 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,960 perfectly, maybe not smoothly all the time, but certainly in retrospect, you might be able to say, 252 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:47,560 ah, yeah, you know, this happened in my life in such a way that it positioned me for this, and then 253 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:54,760 this sort of thing happened as well. And then there is a kind of continuity there. And yeah, 254 00:25:54,760 --> 00:26:02,280 creativity is very, as you put it, it's complex and dynamic and messy. But so is so is all aspects of 255 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:08,600 life, right? And so how do we attend to the spirit in that? Well, I also think the Holy Spirit is the 256 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:14,440 messiest of the Trinity, right? The Holy Spirit moves where she wills, blows where she wills, 257 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:19,400 renews the face of the earth in ways that are unexpected and surprising. And so, you know, 258 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:25,560 the spirit can move that way. But I also, I think if we're being honest with ourselves, then that's 259 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:30,760 a really key element we can recognize when we're starting to hit some friction, right? And maybe 260 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:36,920 that's the spirit's subtle way of saying, hey, Stephen, hey, Dan, hey, whomever, you know, maybe 261 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:42,920 reevaluate this, right? And that can be a creative project, a writing project that could be, you know, 262 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:48,840 a decision about a career change or life change. It could be about a relationship. I mean, I think 263 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:56,040 these sorts of things happen in ways all the time, but, you know, the question isn't, is God acting 264 00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:02,200 in our lives? The question is, are we attuned to recognize when the spirit is there? Yeah. And I've 265 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:08,920 wondered too, you talk about the spirit blowing wherever the spirit wants to blow. And for me, 266 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:14,280 I have to get beneath some of the cultural layers too, because a lot of times I just view things 267 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:21,720 linearly. So I'm approaching life through, okay, point A is going to lead me to point B, point B 268 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:28,200 is going to lead me to point C. And I think that's a very American thing where, however, 269 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:38,200 yeah, I'll ask you a question here. How do you deal with the fact that the spirit does not always, 270 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:45,160 its winds are not always pushing in a linear direction? How do I personally deal with it? 271 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:51,480 It depends on the day. Sure. But I think I affirmed the statement. I think theologically, 272 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:57,480 that is true. There was a great article in the, gosh, I think it was the early 90s or maybe late 273 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:06,440 80s by the amazing theologian, Sister Elizabeth Johnson. And she talks about how the Holy Spirit, 274 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,880 basically the theological article was about chance. Like, what is the relationship between 275 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:18,120 divine providence and chance? Seen oftentimes as oppositional. Either God has an absolute plan, 276 00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:23,240 and if that's true, then God's plan for some people is pretty, pretty crappy. Sorry to use 277 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:31,160 that language. And so theology, spirituality studies, practices in spiritual traditions have 278 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:37,800 made clear, I think, for a long time, that reduction to a quote, God's plan or a kind of 279 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:43,080 strong providentialism can be really problematic. God does not desire the suffering of others. 280 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:48,680 So when we see tragedy or violence happen, we can't say that it's God's plan. That's just, 281 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:53,720 that's absurd, right? Yet on the other hand, we do believe that God is not absent from the world. 282 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:59,560 And so not everything can be random chance. And one of the things Professor Johnson does is say, 283 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:06,120 well, the Holy Spirit accounts for this, right? The Holy Spirit is this dynamic presence of God 284 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:13,560 in the world. And so the way that the Spirit moves, the way that history unfolds is rarely 285 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:18,200 linear, insofar that it ever is recognizably linear. It's always post-factum, right? It's 286 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:24,440 always turning back over our shoulders to say, oh my gosh, you know, I grew up in this place of this 287 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:29,560 faith tradition. I studied this sort of thing in college. I found myself interested in this. I 288 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,880 wrote that. Next thing I know, I'm an editor at Franciscan Media and I'm Stephen Copeland, right? 289 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:39,560 So like, but you couldn't have anticipated that, right? You couldn't have plotted that out. 290 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:46,040 I think that's a lesson in humility for each of us, right? Like the danger on the one hand of 291 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:52,440 saying God has a plan is magnified, I think, on the other hand, by claiming that our plans are 292 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:57,800 God's plans. And we can get really frustrated when they don't come to fruition or don't play out the 293 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:02,200 way we want them to. And then we're not really even talking about divine providence. We're talking 294 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:07,240 about our own sort of acting as God. Like I should have things the way I want it to be. 295 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:13,240 But I think if we open ourselves up to the truth that the Spirit moves through the world, 296 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:19,000 you know, thinking again, Francis of Assisi said that the real minister general, the kind of the 297 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:23,880 greatest, superior, the kind of where the buck stops in the order of friars minor is the Holy 298 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:29,880 Spirit. And anybody, I'm sure we have a lot of professed and Franciscan-hearted people listening 299 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:35,080 to us, you know, you know the Franciscan tradition, and we are kind of a hot mess of a community, you 300 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:39,560 know, I always make a distinction between the Franciscans and the Jesuits, you know, Ignatius 301 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,880 was a soldier through and through, they kind of, he says jump, they don't even ask how high they 302 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:48,440 just start doing it. That's the vision, you know, the Franciscans, you know, the joke always goes 303 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:53,560 that it's like herding cats, you know, kind of all over the place, you know. But I think there's 304 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:58,600 something too about the dynamism of the Spirit at work. And when we say the Spirit is the minister 305 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:04,440 general of the order, do we believe that? You know, I wrote a number of short articles in my column 306 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:11,000 some years ago about the Holy Spirit and how I really do believe that most Christians are functional 307 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:16,840 Holy Spirit atheists. We forget about the Spirit. That's too uncomfortable to think about dynamism 308 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:21,880 of the uncertain, of what might be perceived as chance, right, as opposed to what you said, 309 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:27,400 right, that linear sort of divine plan. So I don't know, there's something very liberating 310 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:34,360 potentially about embracing that and recognizing God is present here too. Yes. Yeah. And it's, 311 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:43,720 frankly, it's, it can be uncomfortable to really believe that the Spirit is indwelling within, 312 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:51,240 like within myself, like to believe that, like, really, could I be that likable and lovable, 313 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:59,080 as you said, like there's, that's, that's an uncomfortable reality, because that changes 314 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:06,760 everything. It can lead to more peace and freedom as well. But that also means that I have to get 315 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:12,120 through the layers of, hey, stop judging yourself, like quit being so hard on yourself. Like, 316 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:17,720 do you like just looking through this lens of shame all the time? Do you, you know, like, 317 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,440 can you try to dare to see yourself the way God sees you? Like, those are uncomfortable things. 318 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:27,800 They really are. I mean, and, you know, just to call back to my own experience in the recent 319 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,960 announcement, I think, you know, one of the things I've heard from a lot of people all over the world 320 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:37,400 is, is a sense of gratitude that I did not expect. I thought I was just sharing, 321 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:42,440 you know, a kind of FYI for folks, right, and updating. Like a press release. 322 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:49,880 Like, you know, and I tried to take it, yeah, more than just, just the facts, right, and to make it 323 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:57,160 personal and sincere and transparent. And I think that itself, not that I did anything perfect with 324 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:03,080 that by any means, but the truth is that rarely happens in the Catholic Church in the public 325 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:08,760 square. And the people who leave religious life, whether women religious, male religious, whether, 326 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:14,840 or those who leave ordained ministry, or lay ministry, I think this term you used a minute ago, 327 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:21,640 shame, plays a big role in that. I had not really thought about that until after I had shared this 328 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,680 part of my story publicly about this decision to leave religious life, and that it was not 329 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,360 something to be taken lightly, and that I felt that it was actually something grounded in the 330 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,520 Spirit's call. And I've heard from a lot of people who said, you know, thank you for sharing that 331 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:40,840 publicly, because I think it starts to de-stigmatize something, right. And we see this in other areas 332 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:45,720 too. It doesn't just have to be religious life or ministry. I mean, think about the deep shame 333 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:51,560 certain people carry in religious contexts, meaning like the church, or in social contexts, 334 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:56,760 right, whether it's in workspaces or family units, whether that's when a relationship has run its 335 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:03,080 course, or maybe has ended in really uncomfortable or, or tensive ways, and somebody is divorced or 336 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:09,000 separated, or when we see, for instance, people struggling with their own sexual orientation or 337 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:15,080 gender identity, and that's not well received, or they're seen suspiciously in certain, you know, 338 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:23,720 areas. Like, I think oftentimes when somebody is experiencing a life transitus, as we're calling it, 339 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:29,800 there can be this temptation to kind of recede to the shadows, or to kind of disappear for a 340 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,880 while. And maybe that's what some people need to do, and that's perfectly okay. The thing I would 341 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:40,440 take issue with is, is that motivated by the need to maybe create space, to hear the Spirit, to renew 342 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:48,600 oneself, to be in prayer, what have you, or is it shame? And I fear sometimes that shame plays a 343 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:55,240 too, a much bigger role in everybody's lives than we often talk about. I mean, there is a certain 344 00:34:55,240 --> 00:35:00,680 irony to that, right? Because, you know, shame, to avoid shame, people kind of then stop talking 345 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:06,120 about things, and so it's a vicious circle. But I think that's something, it's something worth, 346 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:10,760 we're thinking and talking and praying a lot more about. Yeah. Well, I've been reading your book, 347 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:18,200 God Is Not Fair, and your collection of essays about Christian living is published. What, you 348 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:23,960 were 30 years old when you published that? Around there, you're in your early 30s, I believe. Yeah. 349 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,080 Yeah. And you can make me do math, Stephen. I don't know if I can do that. 350 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:34,120 I'm not good at that either. Give me some words. Don't give me numbers. But I'm not great with 351 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:40,920 words. You are great. That's the shame again. Gosh, they're gonna say, yeah, I'm gonna call 352 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:45,640 them talking about this. I'm gonna call no shame on this one. Yeah. But when I opened the book, 353 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:52,120 I was like, wow, that's a harsh title. Like, God Is Not Fair. And then I got about halfway through 354 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:58,920 and the point you're making goes back to what we're talking about is that God Is Not Fair because 355 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:05,960 of the grace and love, the dynamism of these things that are always meeting us where we are. 356 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:11,320 Can you go a little bit deeper into that for me? I think it's a good segue here. Yeah. Yeah. Well, 357 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:17,960 thanks for that. I love that. I love that title. And it comes from one of the essays in the book. 358 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:22,280 And as you say, where it arises is actually a reading of a parable in the Gospel of Matthew. 359 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:27,560 And it's one that as I start to talk about it, many of our listeners will recognize it right away, 360 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:32,520 which is basically this landowner sends out a manager to hire people throughout the day to come 361 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:37,480 work on this vineyard, hires a group of folks at nine o'clock in the morning, another group at noon, 362 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:43,960 another group at three, another group at six kind of thing. And the day is over and they start paying 363 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:48,600 the day laborers in kind of reverse order. So they'll last to come get paid first and get a 364 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,600 whole day's wage. And then, you know, in the meantime, the rest of the people are looking on 365 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,440 and these people have been working since nine o'clock are like, this is awesome, man, if they've 366 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,560 worked three hours or two hours and they're getting a full day's wage, we're going to get 367 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:05,960 overtime, right? This is great. But everybody gets paid the same. And the people who had been 368 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:10,200 working all day or had been working the majority of the day are enraged, right? They're furious 369 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:15,400 about this. And, you know, I have to be honest, I don't know about you, Stephen, and I'm sure 370 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:20,680 our listeners, you know, many of you might be in the same boat as me. I can't help when I hear that, 371 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:27,480 but my initial gut instinct is to get like upset to kind of be frustrated by that, as Jesus's 372 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:33,640 hearers were, right? And he says, in the end, you know, he uses his voice through that of this 373 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:42,040 manager of this land manager says, Are you envious because I'm generous? You know, and I think that 374 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:48,280 is a line worth taking to prayer and reflection, like, we don't have any right to claim anything 375 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:53,400 beyond, you know, what the agreement was, that was what Jesus's parable was all about, right? 376 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,400 Those guys who worked at nine o'clock in the morning, they knew what they signed up for. 377 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:02,200 And the people who worked up later, you know, they took their time to get paid, you know, 378 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:07,400 they took their chances, but they knew, you know, they were gonna, yeah, they're gonna figure it out. 379 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:16,520 And if the person, you know, pays equally, and it doesn't fall beneath, like the minimum expectation 380 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:21,160 or contrast the agreement that they have, then what is the problem here, except for envy, 381 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:27,480 except for jealousy, except for a sense of self righteousness. And, you know, the truth is, 382 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:33,000 according to our worldly standards, Jesus was not being fair there, right? The manager wasn't being 383 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:39,400 fair. God was really unfair. And you could almost hear the stomping of the feet in like a preschool 384 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:45,480 like temper tantrum from those people working all day. That's not fair. Well, that's actually a good 385 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:52,920 thing, though, right? And that's the invitation here. I'm not saying this in any of my writing 386 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,240 or any of the preaching I've done over the years or any of the public lectures and workshops I've 387 00:38:57,240 --> 00:39:03,560 lead. I'm not coming from a position of absolute knowledge of certitude of like having figured it 388 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:10,120 out. Because even though I know where the story is going, every time, I still get that little like, 389 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:16,440 punch in the gut that like, oh, man, if I was one of those nine o'clock guys, and in some context, 390 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:21,960 we are all kind of that way, right? Maybe it's not about finances and work. Maybe it's about caring 391 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:27,880 for a loved one, right? I watched a really great movie on an airplane recently called His Three 392 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:33,320 Daughters. I don't know if you've heard about this. I think it's on, I don't know what network or 393 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:39,080 what service it's on. But basically, it could have been a stage play. It's very, very, very simple, 394 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:44,440 about an hour and 40 minutes long. And it's about three adult women who are sisters, and they've all 395 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:49,800 come together because their father is in the last stages of life in hospice care. And they're in this 396 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:56,280 apartment kind of with each other, and they're working through their experiences and judgments 397 00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:01,480 and views and the pain that they've carried and the prejudices they have of one another and so forth. 398 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:06,920 And one of the things that comes up is this kind of grappling with the one who, one of the sisters 399 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:11,080 had been caring for their father for a long time, lived with him in this apartment. The other two 400 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,000 had been living their lives in different ways and negotiating these things. I mean, it's, I mentioned 401 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:19,080 that only because I thought it was a really great reflection of what I think a lot of families go 402 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:25,960 through. And how do we evaluate, quote, what is fair? I think it's oftentimes, if we're honest, 403 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:32,760 really an excuse. It's a placeholder for, I don't get what I want. And at the end of the day, 404 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,920 that's not Christian, right? That's not a Gothic love. That's really a kind of self-centered 405 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:43,000 interest. And that's something I think that's really hard for us to work through at any stage 406 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,400 of life. And so that's where the subtitle comes in, you know, for this collection of reflections, 407 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,800 which is God is not fair and other reasons for gratitude. I mean, we should be grateful 408 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:56,760 that God is not fair because more often than not, we're the ones who are in need of a lot 409 00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:03,880 of generosity and a lot of leeway and a lot of forgiveness from God. But how quick we are to 410 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:09,320 assume that we're not getting what is ours or what we're owed. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think this 411 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:17,000 can be connected back to transition as well, is that what does it look like to live in a 412 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:24,280 generous, loving universe, even at times when it doesn't feel like that? 413 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:30,280 Yeah. Yeah. I think that is a really great question, right? I mean, part of that is an 414 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:35,960 invitation to think, to think outside ourselves. You know, I'm thinking of the great fourth century 415 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:41,240 theologian, Augustine of hippo St. Augustine had this notion of sin. What it does is it kind of 416 00:41:41,240 --> 00:41:45,800 bends us over. He has this great image of us being kind of bent over, almost navel gazing picture 417 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:50,600 that where you're like looking at yourself. And he said the weight of the effect of original sin 418 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:56,200 just kind of pushes us downward. And when that happens, you can't see reality as it is. You can 419 00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:00,840 see maybe peripherally, you can see maybe upside down part of the distance or what have you, 420 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:06,280 but you're basically just focused on yourself. And I think what you're talking about here is exactly 421 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:11,640 that too many of us are just too focused on ourselves as individuals, as individual humans 422 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:17,320 in a cosmic family. There's that dimension of this too. In an age of climate catastrophe, 423 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:22,600 what does it mean to be a citizen of what Pope Francis calls our common home? I think we are 424 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:28,200 collectively as human beings kind of navel gazing and we're kind of infighting and we're disagreeing 425 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:33,160 and we're just trying to be selfish and to take what's ours and to be comfortable. And some of 426 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:41,080 that arises out of fear and some of it arises out of necessity. But a lot of it arises out of a kind 427 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:48,200 of ruthless selfishness, if I can be so blunt. And so starting to see the bigger picture. And 428 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:52,920 that's where in the Catholic tradition, we talk about the common good, whether that's our civil 429 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:58,280 society or whether that's how we are meant to be an inclusive community in the church or whether 430 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:03,320 that's how we're meant to be part of God's family of creation. But it requires us kind of 431 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:09,560 standing upright, as Augustine says, to see the world as it actually is. St. Bonaventure talks 432 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:14,440 about this too, that great 13th century Franciscan. And the way that we do that is by cooperating with 433 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:18,920 God's grace. And the way that Augustine talks about it is, here we go again, the Holy Spirit. 434 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:23,480 The Holy Spirit is the one who lifts us up. St. Bonaventure says we can help in that process by 435 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:29,240 being people of scripture too, right? Letting God's story become our story as well. And so I think 436 00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:34,040 that's always great advice. How do we get outside of ourselves? It's grappling with Jesus' preaching. 437 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:38,200 I mean, for heaven's sake, if we don't have that punch to the stomach in the story of the people 438 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,960 who are hired throughout the day, then I don't think we're being honest with ourselves. 439 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:49,640 Right. Yeah. Yeah. Why is it so difficult to accept God's love, in your opinion? 440 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:55,560 Oh, man. I have like an hour left, right? 441 00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:02,680 How many hours do we have? Yeah. Well, I often go back to something Pope Francis said in April of 442 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:10,360 2013. This was when he was newly elected Bishop of Rome and the actual kind of cathedral of the 443 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:15,080 Diocese of Rome is the Lateran Basilica. And so every new pope, they become pope the night of the 444 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:22,840 conclave and all this, but then there's a formal kind of installation as the Bishop of Rome, as the 445 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:27,480 pope, right? And that takes place at the Lateran Basilica and there is the cathedra, the chair of 446 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:32,200 the bishop there. And so him celebrating mass there, sitting in that chair, this is all part of it. 447 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:38,920 And Pope Francis in that particular liturgy gave a homily where I and others, I'm not original, 448 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:43,720 I'm thinking this way, have talked about this as kind of Pope Francis announcing his mission 449 00:44:43,720 --> 00:44:48,840 statement. And here we can, you know, more than a decade now, look back and see that this is 450 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:54,040 kind of par for the course, which is all about mercy. And I think, you know, to your point, 451 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:58,520 why is it so hard to accept God's love? I think it's because fundamentally we don't believe that 452 00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:03,320 we're worthy of it, that we need to do something. And part of that, if not most of that, I think, 453 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:09,240 is conditioned by our experience of such qualified love in our human relationships, 454 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:15,720 even those in our families where there might be the closest thing in healthy family relationships 455 00:45:15,720 --> 00:45:21,880 to an unconditional love. If we're honest, even that becomes conditioned. We're never 100% sure 456 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:26,920 that something in our life or a fight that breaks out, a disagreement, a disagreement, 457 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:32,440 a perspective or politics or you name it, wouldn't be the thing, that straw that breaks the camel's 458 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:39,960 back of that relationship. There's always just that edge of the precipice. And so if we take 459 00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:45,880 that experience of conditioned love, of qualified love in this life, you know, all we have to talk 460 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,640 about God and understand God is our human experiences and language. You know, we know 461 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:54,760 that God is incomprehensible, but yet God is knowable. We can talk about God, but we do so 462 00:45:54,760 --> 00:46:00,360 analogously. We do so somewhat removed. And so I think when we're thinking this way, we have no 463 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:05,880 choice, no recourse, but to draw from our experience of human love. I think it's harder for people who 464 00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:12,600 have felt an absence of that close to unconditional love. It doesn't mean that even those who have 465 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:18,920 can accept God's love completely. And what Pope Francis says in that homily, it has always stayed 466 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:23,720 with me, I'm going to paraphrase it here, is that he says, God doesn't actually want anything from 467 00:46:23,720 --> 00:46:30,280 you. God is already there. All God wants you to do is turn to God. I've always visualized this as like, 468 00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:35,160 you're facing one direction and God is like literally standing behind you. You don't have to 469 00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:40,760 pay anything. You don't have to do anything, but turn toward God. Just turn around in the fear 470 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:46,200 that we're going to be rejected or overlooked or minimized or what have you that we carry with us 471 00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:51,080 from our earthly relationships. I think inhibits too many people from just turning. That's all. 472 00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:57,160 Pope Francis says, don't, literally that's it. God will take care of the rest. And how few of us are 473 00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:01,880 able to turn around. I know I struggle with that. It goes back to the true self. It goes back to 474 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:07,800 Francis of Assisi's notion of who we are before God. That old saying, it's like a bumper sticker 475 00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:13,720 saying, but it's so true, God doesn't make junk. God sometimes makes mosquitoes. I don't quite 476 00:47:13,720 --> 00:47:21,400 understand that. I guess the bats have to eat something. But it's true. There's something, 477 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,120 one last thing I'll say, I'm getting kind of on a little bit of a sermon here, a little bit of a 478 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:32,840 homily, but- Preach brother, keep going. I'm going to cite an even more powerful preacher, 479 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:38,520 which is Sister Helen Prejean, the great activist against capital punishment and the death penalty, 480 00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:43,720 real champion of human rights in dealing with the population that is probably the easiest to 481 00:47:43,720 --> 00:47:50,200 dehumanize and to write off. And she says, and I know she's not the first, but I think of her all 482 00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:55,320 the time, that when people ask her, how can you minister? How can you accompany these people who 483 00:47:55,320 --> 00:48:01,080 have done the worst things, who are rapists and murderers and so forth? Sister Helen always says 484 00:48:01,720 --> 00:48:05,160 that each of us, all of us are more than the worst things that we've done. 485 00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:09,880 And I think that can be a really tough pill to swallow. And most of us are not going to 486 00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:14,360 be on death row. Most of us are not going to have either made mistakes or done things intentionally 487 00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:20,440 that are so egregious. But in little ways, I think, to your point, we can find ourselves 488 00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:25,800 in situations where we are either written off by others or we write ourselves off. 489 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:28,680 And that gets in the way of accepting God's love. 490 00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:36,920 Absolutely. Yeah, you brought up Bonaventure and with my studies at FST, I kind of got into his 491 00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:42,920 metaphysics a little bit and that's what my capstone paper ended up being about. And 492 00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:49,560 the practical implications of his metaphysics of this fountain that is ever flowing, 493 00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:55,880 from the very beginning, it has never stopped flowing. This self-diffusiveness of the Trinity 494 00:48:55,880 --> 00:49:02,840 continually giving of itself, not only into the universe, which you can draw kind of scientific 495 00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:08,200 conclusions from there, but then also, do I really believe that fountains flowing into my life? 496 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:14,040 You know, when I'm stressed or tired or, you know, just feel like I'm getting whipped around 497 00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:19,240 from thing to thing or, you know, exhausted from the particular transition or whatever it may be, 498 00:49:19,240 --> 00:49:22,040 like, do I believe that fountain still flowing? 499 00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:28,840 It's hard. It's hard to trust. Oh, it is. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a big fan of them. So glad to hear that 500 00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:33,480 was your project. Yeah. Gets that from Pseudodinusius, this overflowing good, the Fonteboos. 501 00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:39,800 Like, yeah. And I think that's also too, maybe it touches back to that parable in Matthew's gospel 502 00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:45,560 about, you know, the hired laborers that we think in a zero sum game, you know, that God, 503 00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:50,280 there is no end to God's love. There just isn't. In a way, I mean, let's be honest, there's an end 504 00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:54,920 to our energy. There's an end to our patience. There's an end to our love at times. And so I 505 00:49:54,920 --> 00:50:02,680 think, you know, do we trust that? Because the only model for that is God and God's self. And I think 506 00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:07,480 in the Christian tradition, we believe God became human. And so Jesus becomes the incarnate model of 507 00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:13,320 that. But where the rubber hits the road is, do I really believe that God became human? And so I 508 00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:17,960 think in the Christian tradition, we believe God became human. But where the rubber hits the road 509 00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:23,240 is, do I actually believe it? You know, and that goes back to my Holy Spirit atheism kind of 510 00:50:23,240 --> 00:50:29,160 suspicion that goes to my, you know, the God is not fair and other reasons for gratitude. I mean, 511 00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:34,360 are these reasons for gratitude? Can we see the goodness in this? Or is this us operating with 512 00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:38,920 the wisdom of the world? And, you know, we want to get what's ours, and there's a limited quantity, 513 00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:42,760 and I'm going to get as much as I can. It's the, it's the Pokemon approach to Christianity. You 514 00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:49,720 know, that Jesus approach, the Pokemon approach. Yeah, I'm a good millennial like you. I remember, 515 00:50:49,720 --> 00:50:53,480 I remember trading Pokemon cards in the bathroom at my Catholic grade school. 516 00:50:55,240 --> 00:51:02,920 Well, I have one more question for you, Dan. And I mentioned God is not fair. That trilogy of books 517 00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:10,280 through Franciscan media came out right at the beginning of Pope Francis's papacy. So it's been 518 00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:15,640 over 10 years now since those books came out. And I was just wondering, could you reflect on this 519 00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:22,280 last decade for you, your 30s? What did you learn about God during that time? Or perhaps what did 520 00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:28,440 you learn about your true self during that time? Well, I think it, I think maybe that second part 521 00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:33,000 is a good one. What did I learn about God? What I know about God, I could fit in a thimble in an 522 00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:40,360 ocean of incomprehensibility. So not, not much. I mean, but I am a firm believer of, of, you know, 523 00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:45,320 learning to know God, to relate to God, to experience God is quite different than knowing 524 00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:50,680 about God. But that's, that's my theologian hat being triggered by, by an innocent and good 525 00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:58,280 question. But about the true self, I think, you know, over this past decade, I would just say, 526 00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:02,760 actually with my whole life journey up to now, you know, coincidentally, my birthday is at the 527 00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:07,880 end of this week. So I should probably be a little more like reflective about, I never am, 528 00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,560 I'm not a big birthday guy. Some people celebrate their birthdays like crazy, and I'm just not one 529 00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:15,560 of them. But your question, I think, is a good one for me to carry with me throughout the week. 530 00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:23,720 And I would say that, you know, we're never complete, you know, we're not done projects. 531 00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:30,040 That God knows who we are in our truest sense, our truest self, to use Merton's phrase, 532 00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:36,120 doesn't mean that we are static. And it doesn't mean that we are without free will and free choice, 533 00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:42,440 right? This is the kind of paradox of Christianity. I'm thinking right now of, and this says a lot 534 00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,320 from somebody who comes from the Franciscan tradition to give, you know, a great shout out 535 00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:51,160 to the Jesuits. But that's a joke. That's a joke. I love the Jesuits. But I'm thinking of the late 536 00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:57,160 German theologian, Karl Rahner, who, you know, talks in his theology about what he calls the 537 00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:02,600 fundamental option, right? This is kind of a yes or no that we make to God's invitation to relationship 538 00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:07,640 kind of in our totality. And he says, at the end of the day, you really can't do this until the very 539 00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:12,600 end of your life. You know, you are going back to Tronsitus in the Franciscan sense, it is, 540 00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:18,120 you're on the cusp of transitioning from this life to the next. And it's a real theology of hope, 541 00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:23,720 right? That means that you may have been somebody who has lived a really terrible life and rejected 542 00:53:23,720 --> 00:53:28,920 a lot of things that would be identified with the divine or God's call or the kingdom of God. 543 00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:35,880 But there always is this opportunity, in a sense, to kind of to say yes to God. And some people can 544 00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:40,920 say yes to God very easily because they've worked their whole lives in small ways and in big ways 545 00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:46,280 to kind of prepare themselves for that. But one of the things he says is like, we are not complete 546 00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:52,280 until that point. And so we're always in a process of becoming, you know, becoming more who we are, 547 00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:57,880 becoming more who we are, or maybe to borrow that Mertonian language, maybe becoming less of who we 548 00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:05,000 are in that spirit of the false self. But I do believe that God, I trust what Pope Francis says, 549 00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:10,200 God's mercy is there. It's just a matter of us turning to God. It's just a matter of us accepting 550 00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:16,680 that love, which to some people sounds, you know, probably like, you know, too theoretical or abstract 551 00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:23,160 or too, you know, touchy feely or what have you. But I think is that not what Jesus's message was 552 00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:28,280 all about? You know, it was made concrete and present by his outreach and his inclusion, his 553 00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:34,520 invitation. But at the end of the day, that's what he's showing us, is a God who, it doesn't matter 554 00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:39,960 if you're accused of adultery. It doesn't matter if you are accused and are convicted of a capital 555 00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:45,880 crime and being executed in public. I mean, it happened to God. So what does that say to us about 556 00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:49,880 how we move through the world? What does it say to us about how we understand ourselves? And I think 557 00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:56,600 that combination of Ronner and Merton and Francis and Jesus's own message in the gospels 558 00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:02,680 has invited me to continue to recognize that it's not a one and done, that we're always in a process 559 00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:07,880 of becoming. I'm thinking of our mutual friend and a fellow Francis comedian author, you know, 560 00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:13,320 Father Richard Rohr, who talks about the two halves of life, you know, in addition to other wisdom that 561 00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:18,840 he offers us and thinking about this ongoing dynamic way of being in the world. So maybe 562 00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:23,400 that's probably a good place to end, you know, because we're continuing to journey forward. 563 00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:29,480 No, that's perfect, Dan. Yeah. Thanks for coming on the podcast and happy birthday, my friend. 564 00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:33,720 Thanks, Stephen. It's such a joy to see you and always great to talk with you. I look forward to 565 00:55:33,720 --> 00:55:46,040 the next time. Again, that was Dan Horan. His three books with Franciscan media, 566 00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:52,520 God is Not Fair and Other Reasons for Gratitude, Dating God, and The Last Words of Jesus are all 567 00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:58,920 available in the Franciscan media store. You can follow Dan on Facebook at facebook.com 568 00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:11,000 or on Facebook at facebook.com.com. Thanks for joining us on Off the Page. Thank you as always 569 00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:16,920 to you for tuning in and supporting this podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider 570 00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:23,640 leaving a review or sharing it with your friends or family. Here's music from Cyprian Concilio to 571 00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:30,680 send us off. Peace and all good.