1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:15,380 Welcome to Off the Page. I'm Stephen Copeland. For many, Christmas time no longer brings 2 00:00:15,380 --> 00:00:21,160 with it the sense of bliss or excitement we may have experienced as children. It can come 3 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:26,860 with a heaviness, darkness, or an overwhelming sense of busyness that numbs us to the magic 4 00:00:26,860 --> 00:00:32,400 of the season. I know for me the last several Christmases have come with a sting, and I 5 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:37,320 often find myself mentally and emotionally checking out during the holidays. I try to 6 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:43,400 open my heart again and again, but it's hard sometimes and I retreat into the dark. There's 7 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:48,240 no better person to help inspire listeners to find joy and sacredness in the holiday 8 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:54,680 season than today's guest, Dr. Thomas Moore. You may recognize his name not only from church 9 00:00:54,680 --> 00:01:00,920 history—no, not that Thomas Moore—but also from his number one New York Times bestseller, 10 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:05,680 Care for the Soul. He has written thirty other books about bringing soul to personal life 11 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:11,400 and culture, including the book we discussed today, The Soul of Christmas, which was published 12 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:18,320 in 2016 by Franciscan Media. In his youth, Thomas was a Catholic monk and studied music 13 00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:24,340 composition. He has a Ph.D. in religious studies from Syracuse University and was a university 14 00:01:24,340 --> 00:01:29,600 professor for a number of years. He is also a psychotherapist, influenced mainly by Carl 15 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:36,240 Young and James Hillman. In his work, he brings together spirituality, mythology, depth psychology, 16 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:41,800 and the arts, emphasizing the importance of images and imagination. What I love about 17 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:46,680 his book, The Soul of Christmas, is that it hits on two levels—the personal, as he helps 18 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:52,040 readers to reacquaint themselves with the magic of Christmas, but also the universal, 19 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:56,820 as he invites both Christians and non-Christians alike to contemplate the mystical dimensions 20 00:01:56,820 --> 00:02:02,320 of Christmas—even the aspects of the season that we may not think of as spiritual or have 21 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:09,160 written off as childish or naive. This conversation was playful and mystical, much of it unfolds 22 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:15,240 in the realm of symbol and myth. We talk about Christmas trees, Santa Claus, angels, and, 23 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:21,040 yes, Jesus in the Incarnation. I'm not sure if Thomas calls himself a Christian these 24 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:26,000 days, but I think you'll find that his ability to speak the universal language of the soul 25 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:32,320 is its own invitation to authentic spiritual experience, no matter one's faith or religion. 26 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:37,120 He is traditional in some ways, non-traditional in others, but if you're open to it, I think 27 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:42,480 his draw to symbol and myth can help inspire the spiritual imagination and ultimately rediscover 28 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:48,200 God in new ways this time of year. I hope this episode helps you to open your heart to 29 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:53,600 the magic of the season, just as his book has done for me in this conversation as well. 30 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:58,520 You can order The Soul of Christmas in the Franciscan Media Store or wherever you purchase 31 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:03,520 your books. It's a great, thoughtful Christmas gift, and if it's not looking like you'll 32 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:08,280 receive it in time where you live, maybe you can share this episode with your loved one 33 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:14,320 and tell them their book is on the way. So, without further ado, here is Thomas Moore, 34 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:21,400 but first, a message from our sponsor. Earning a Master of Theological Studies with 35 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:27,840 the Franciscan Theology lens is now possible anywhere in the world. The Master's program 36 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:33,200 at the Franciscan School of Theology offers a blend of academic engagement and spiritual 37 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:38,560 reflection. You can learn at your own pace while connecting with fellow students and 38 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:45,360 instructors in a respectful and down-to-earth environment. Embark on a 24-month mutually 39 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:53,360 transformative journey with the world-renowned faculty and instructors from FST. The Master 40 00:03:53,360 --> 00:04:00,600 of Theological Studies, Franciscan Theology is 100% online. You can complete it in 24 41 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:07,160 months, and it is fully accredited. I actually just completed this program, and it's amazing. 42 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:14,320 So I highly recommend it. To learn more, you can visit theologicalstudies.sandiego.edu. 43 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:28,320 Again, that's theologicalstudies.sandiego.edu. Thomas Moore, thank you for joining us on 44 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:34,680 the Off the Page Podcast. Thank you. It's really a great pleasure to be with you today. 45 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:39,080 So you've written more than a dozen books since the release of your New York Times bestseller 46 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:44,600 Care for the Soul, but this is the only book you've written based around a specific holiday 47 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:50,320 or season. So why did you write this book, and where did it come from within your own 48 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:57,760 soul? Well, I have... It's really hard to know where to start. In my studies, in my 49 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:05,200 education, especially my PhD work at Syracuse University in religious studies, I studied 50 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:14,040 the role of myth. I studied the interpretation, sort of psychological reading of fairy tales. 51 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:20,560 I've been interested in looking at rather popular images. I'm very interested in looking 52 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:28,880 at the deeper aspects of many films. So all of it, any kind of imagery is really important. 53 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:39,520 It's my work. It's what I do. And so I've always loved Christmas. And I'm a musician. 54 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:48,560 For years, I was preparing music for Christmas holidays. In fact, I made a recording of Christmas 55 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:57,800 music a dozen years ago that I think is terrific, and we did a PBS special with it. So I've 56 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:07,720 been interested in making Christmas more intelligent and known to people. There's much more going 57 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:12,560 on at Christmas than people understand or realize. And it's not enough just to have 58 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:17,600 these articles that come out at Christmas time saying the Christmas tree is the cosmic 59 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:25,360 tree. You have to go further than that. So that's what I decided to do with this book. 60 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:32,160 The Franciscan media asked me to write something for them, just in general, to write something. 61 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:39,480 And I thought this would be a great time, great opportunity for me to write about Christmas. 62 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:49,400 I was a Christian monk. I was a Catholic monk for 13 years. And I have a very strong background 63 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:56,480 there in Christian theology. In fact, in my own work, I consider myself a theologian, 64 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:06,160 and kind of a modern one, a non-aligned one. And so it was an opportunity for me to gather 65 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:13,120 all my powers, all the things that I can do with my background and my interest and my 66 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,720 love of Christmas and make something of it. 67 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:24,720 Yeah, you talked about kind of the realm of symbol. And you mentioned myth, fairy tales. 68 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:29,640 You dive into a couple of those symbols in your book. Would you like to begin with the 69 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:35,320 Christmas tree? I love the way you broke that down cosmically. And I think that people would 70 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,200 find that interesting. 71 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:47,680 Well, the tree itself is such an important part of life. Trees, I think, are, they're 72 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:52,520 staying, like right now when I talk to you, there are, I don't know, probably at least 73 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:59,440 a couple thousand trees around me. And they stand there in front of you. And you have 74 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:06,640 to have a relationship to them. And I think anything like that that is so common in your 75 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:11,480 experience, I guess people who grow up in a desert wouldn't have that experience, but 76 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:20,520 I do. And so the tree is going to become mythic. Most things in life, most things that have 77 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:29,200 any value to them, they shift over time from being ordinary and factual to mythic. That 78 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:34,400 means they have another layer of meaning that they haven't had before. Your own house can 79 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:40,600 become a myth. You know, if you're with it long enough and if you love it, it begins 80 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:46,300 to, you begin to tell stories about it and the things that take place in it. It has its 81 00:08:46,300 --> 00:08:52,880 mythic side. I grew up in a, I spent a lot of time in my youth in a farmhouse in upstate 82 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:59,600 New York with barns and various houses and there was no plumbing in the house. It's quite 83 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:08,960 a nice experience. And now that house has become a myth. And my family often comes with 84 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:15,520 me and we visit that old house. It's just a ruin now. But even as a ruin, it seems even 85 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,200 more sacred, which is almost the same as saying mythic. 86 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:24,840 Yeah, I think it was, not to cut you off, but I think I read, maybe it was Richard Rohr 87 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:30,880 one time. He said that we think of myth as something that's not true, but in the way 88 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:37,000 he and a lot of mystics use it, it means something that's truer than true. Is that correct? You 89 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:44,280 know, there's a sacred layer beneath this, you know, contained within this house, contained 90 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:50,200 within whatever it is, there's stories, there's soul, yeah. Yeah, all of those things apply. 91 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:57,080 So any of those words could be used interchangeably in a way. So what happens is that you experience 92 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:03,960 that thing at another level. It has a much more meaning and it even takes on a certain 93 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:09,640 reverence. You may feel reverence for it. As we do the house in the country that I spent 94 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:15,240 all those years in, it's now a holy place in a way. Not in any religious sense, you 95 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:21,240 know, typical religious sense, but in the sense that in our family, it's holy. It wouldn't 96 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:29,520 be that for people in another family probably, but for us it is. And so it has another level, 97 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:36,200 it has risen to another level. A tree can do that. So a tree is just a tree, but if 98 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:43,360 you have a special tree, I'll give you another example. My mother, my dear mother who died 99 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:56,000 15 years ago, she had a tree in her yard. It's called the Rose of Sharon. I always mix 100 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:03,880 that up, Rose of Sharon. And so when I have moved to different houses over the years in 101 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:10,880 my life, I have planted a Rose of Sharon tree. We have one next to our house right now. That 102 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:16,920 tree is not an ordinary tree. That tree is my mother's tree. It's like her, it's an 103 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:25,600 image for her. The Christmas tree is closer to that. It's a tree that has been elevated 104 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:36,440 in meaning and reverence. Because it's been associated, for example, the Bible associates 105 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:43,880 that tree with a tree in the garden of Eden. Well, that tree is a very special tree. The 106 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:49,360 story of Eden, which I would call a mythology, and I don't mean to say it's not real, I 107 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:57,720 mean that it is very real. That tree of Eden helps us see that all trees have a certain 108 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:07,320 holiness to them. And so when it comes to Christmas time, we associate Christmas with 109 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:18,080 a tree. It's not in this original story, but it has been associated with Christmas. And 110 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:24,580 it's brought into the house, which is unusual. You don't usually bring a tree into your house. 111 00:12:24,580 --> 00:12:31,000 So that shows how unusual and special this tree is. And then we put lights on it because, 112 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:37,560 as we might see in our conversation, Christmas is really a celebration of light. So we put 113 00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:44,600 lights on the tree. Originally people put actual candles on the tree. It's hard to imagine. 114 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:52,640 They go up in flames so fast. But we put lights and bulbs on the tree. We make it special. 115 00:12:52,640 --> 00:13:00,880 We show that this tree is not a literal tree. Literal trees don't have lights and little 116 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:07,840 decorations on them. We have transformed the tree into something meaningful to us, deeply 117 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:13,320 meaningful. We bring that tree into our house. We keep it in our house for a little season, 118 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:19,160 a short season. And we have gifts under the tree, which shows we might be able to talk 119 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:26,560 about gifts later, how important they are to Christmas. And so we bring that tree there 120 00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:34,160 and we have sanctified it. We have seen the sanctity of the tree and we bring it into 121 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:41,440 our world. And it helps give us the glow of Christmas by having that tree in our homes. 122 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:47,800 Yeah. As you're talking, I'm reminded of at least one of my favorite scenes in Christmas 123 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:53,860 films is in Charlie Brown Christmas, a favorite of my dad's, where he picks out this humble 124 00:13:53,860 --> 00:14:01,360 tree and he kind of gets shamed for it. But in the end, in his moment of rejection, he 125 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:06,680 goes and picks this tree up again and he carries it with him. And then his friends come back 126 00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:11,440 to him and they decorate it for him. And it's to me, I mean, talk about symbol. There's 127 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:17,720 so much metaphor there. But it really captured, to me, it really captures something about 128 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:26,960 Christmas. You know, like we're going to dare pick up this thing. Perhaps it's something 129 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:32,360 broken in our story or an element of pain around this time of year. And we're going 130 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:37,440 to pick it up, carry it with us. And in community, we're going to gather around it and decorate 131 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,680 it and make it beautiful and redeem it in a sense, but also not turn our back on the 132 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,160 fact that this is a humble tree. 133 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:50,480 Well, that's the other side of it too. The tree is nature coming in. And so Christmas 134 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,840 is in some ways a celebration of nature in many ways, actually. 135 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,880 Yeah. And then in Christian theology, of course, you're going to have a lot of fun with this, 136 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:07,360 with the manger perhaps coming from wood or the cross. I mean, there can be so much myth, 137 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:13,720 depth behind spiritual significance contained within this tree. Franciscan theology too, 138 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:18,040 Bonaventure's Tree of Life. I mean, there's just so much here. And I love that one of 139 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:24,000 my favorite things about your book, Thomas, is that it invites you to see the depth of 140 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:25,000 things. 141 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:33,360 Yes. The fact that everything is multi-layered. It may have a practical purpose, but at the 142 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:35,800 same time, it can have a mystical purpose. 143 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:40,840 Yes. And what do you mean by that word mystic? You know, when people listening, whenever 144 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:45,280 they hear a word like myth or mystic, you know, or magic, magic is a word that you use 145 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:52,120 in your book as well. I personally love those words, but for some it's, ooh, that's a little 146 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:53,280 too scary for me. 147 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:59,680 I just mean escaping from the limitations of the philosophy that we live under, which 148 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:06,000 is science. Science is wonderful, what it's done for us, but it has also given us a very 149 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:15,360 limited worldview. We can only live a portion of human life if we live what science tells 150 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:21,840 us the way the world is. It's wonderful what they give us, but it's far too limited. So 151 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:31,060 to be a mystic is to reach beyond that kind of a limited world. And I think what happens 152 00:16:31,060 --> 00:16:38,540 is that people feel, they use the word illuminated, which is a nice word. Illumination is a big 153 00:16:38,540 --> 00:16:45,160 word and for me, especially Christian mystics, they talk about a stage of illumination in 154 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:52,680 their mystical life. It means that they have, not that they are enlightened mentally, but 155 00:16:52,680 --> 00:17:00,480 they are transformed into beings more of light rather than of ordinary substance. That now 156 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:06,280 we are people who can live at another level and can appreciate that even in this world 157 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:14,360 that is so factual and so material, we can also live. We can be in a way that is beyond 158 00:17:14,360 --> 00:17:21,240 that, transcendent, and that quality is different. And it's an important thing. If all of us 159 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:27,080 could do that, I think we'd have such a sensitivity that we'd be able to get along better. 160 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:33,200 Yeah, I think you write in your book that you hope that our next age is one of imagination. 161 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:39,900 And so it's not turning our back on postmodernism or science, but it is, if I'm understanding 162 00:17:39,900 --> 00:17:47,680 you correctly, it is giving magic a shot. You wrote, Christmas is about giving utopia 163 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:52,640 a chance. I love that line. Am I tracking there? 164 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:58,560 Totally, totally, completely. And all these things relate to each other because utopia, 165 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:05,880 which means kind of the word itself means no place, but that means an other place, another 166 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:11,080 place besides this world we live in. And that would be a world that we can imagine as being 167 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:15,920 one of that is peaceful, where people can get along, where we can each be creative in 168 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:23,160 our own way and not fear extinction from all of the other people around us. That kind of 169 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:31,020 a world, utopian, is very similar to the mystic talking about being illuminated. It's another 170 00:18:31,020 --> 00:18:39,160 level of existence that's real and can coexist with a factual one and a scientific one, but 171 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:45,800 it's different. That's all, it's just different. And it gives us something that is very important 172 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:55,300 for human beings to be nourished on the experience we have when we have a mystical life. So I 173 00:18:55,300 --> 00:19:02,520 think that Christmas can lead us in that right direction. If we can have one day of the year 174 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:09,360 where it's Christmas and we understand that giving gifts is a way of being economical, 175 00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:14,960 we can have an economy among human beings by gift giving, then we could also have every 176 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:21,800 day of the year have some of those sort of unreal values. 177 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:27,720 Yeah, you mentioned gifts just now and earlier as well. I know that's a symbol that you play 178 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,600 with as well in your book. Do you want to go a little bit deeper into that? 179 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:37,680 Well just what I was saying that I think what happens at Christmas is we are celebrating 180 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:46,240 the arrival of a new way of life represented in the infant. And when Jesus grows up, he 181 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:53,740 teaches that new way of life. And it's a radical teaching because he suggests that we live 182 00:19:53,740 --> 00:19:59,920 by agape, which is a kind of love that is selfless. And that, you know, we just don't 183 00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:06,640 have a world that is based on that. Our world is based here in the United States, it's largely 184 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:13,160 based on laws, which is fine. We need laws, but we need something else. We need utopia 185 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:19,400 as well. We need a world in which people can really love each other and have values that 186 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:27,320 are not so realistic and not so limited and so basic. We need a more extravagant way of 187 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:33,760 looking at life. And we can live that way. We can each live that way to some extent, 188 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:39,100 but it'd be nice if we all could. And I think Christmas is about the birth of that kind 189 00:20:39,100 --> 00:20:49,040 of vision for life. So that's what we are aiming for. And so when we talk about magic 190 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:58,200 and mysticism, we are talking about the way to live in this world that is not limited 191 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:07,760 by the old ways of having to be mechanical and only scientific and egotistical. 192 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:14,560 Is abundance perhaps a good word there that in a time like Christmas, it's leaning into 193 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:19,920 this economy of abundance rather than practicality maybe? 194 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:27,960 Oh, yes. The gifts we give don't have to be practical. And the gift giving is not too 195 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:36,520 practical either because when you give a gift, you can, you know, people do turn Christmas 196 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:43,480 gift giving into something that is not ideal. They become worried about what they're going 197 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,720 to give to people and they think sometimes that the more they spend on a gift, the better 198 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:56,520 it is. Things like that. That's not really true in a gift giving culture. We want to 199 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:02,640 be with other people and love them from the heart. And the gifts we give show that we 200 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:12,080 can live together out of love and free giving rather than out of some kind of commercial 201 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:18,400 financial exchange that is really, you know, it doesn't come from the heart. It comes 202 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:24,600 from trying to make everything even, make sure everyone is getting their peace with 203 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:30,720 the action. And that's not the same. It's giving is offering of itself from the heart 204 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:39,480 and the gift represents that. So I'm not saying that we are all Christians necessarily or 205 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:47,480 people are it who are attracted to the Jesus way have to be so idealistic. They don't have 206 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:51,960 to be. But I think they have to bring that into their life if they really want to do 207 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:57,640 it. They have to bring some of Christmas into their daily life. And part of that would be 208 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:07,800 giving gifts. That means that you're not going to always be cutthroat in your financial exchanges, 209 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:14,640 but that you can be open hearted much of the time. And I think that just the way it goes, 210 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:23,720 I feel that there are so many instances I get into where people would say, well, you 211 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:30,400 are you're being taken advantage of. You could make more money if you did this or did that. 212 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:35,800 And I think to myself, that's certainly true. But you know, I really believe in this Jesus 213 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:42,840 way. I really do. I'm not officially a Christian, but I believe in it. I really trust it. So 214 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:48,640 if it comes to that, I will say I remember Christmas. Christmas, we give gifts and you 215 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:54,320 don't get anything in return. Okay, this time I'm going to give something to somebody. I'm 216 00:23:54,320 --> 00:24:01,720 not going to get paid for it. But that's Christmas again. Christmas every day. 217 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:09,280 Yeah. Yeah. And you know, when we use words like, hey, be more idealistic or, you know, 218 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:16,280 utopia is a word that we've used in this conversation. You know, I mean, I can't help but think Christmas, 219 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:22,240 a lot of times it's not always a joy for everyone. You know, it can bring up grief and loneliness 220 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:28,980 or stress. And how can we kind of honor these aspects of the human experience during the 221 00:24:28,980 --> 00:24:34,680 holiday season, while also, you know, as I mentioned earlier, give utopia a chance and 222 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,720 lean into this economy of abundance and idealism? 223 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:43,680 Well, you have to understand the debate. This is basic. That life is full of joy and full 224 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:48,560 of pain. That's just the way it is. And at Christmas, it's interesting that we approach 225 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:54,160 Christmas through the darkest night of the year. So this is another important connection 226 00:24:54,160 --> 00:25:02,160 with Christmas is that it takes place at the solstice. And that's when the sun is least 227 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:07,720 present to us. And you know, the sun is not just there to give us a physical warmth. The 228 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:12,520 sun can make you feel alive and happy. A friend of mine just told me the other day, if he 229 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:17,440 gets up in the morning and the sun is shining, he's ready to go. And if the sun isn't shining, 230 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:23,480 he wants to stay in bed. He doesn't want to get into life. So we have to remember that. 231 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:30,120 Light comes in the darkness. We're celebrating the birth of light at Christmas and all that 232 00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:34,720 image of the manger with an infant. And you don't have to take that historically. You 233 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:40,840 can take it as, again, another aspect of the myth of Christmas is that light itself is 234 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:50,280 being born. And we see in many paintings of the Nativity, there's light coming from the 235 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:57,520 child or light coming from the little barn they're in. That light is meaningful. You 236 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:03,680 know, that light means something because that is a celebration of light. Light coming after 237 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:09,220 the whole year has grown so dark that there's hardly any light left. At least that's what 238 00:26:09,220 --> 00:26:16,080 some of us feel. I live in New Hampshire. I really feel it. There's not much light left 239 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:22,480 in December. And you can feel it. You just wish that we had longer days. Well, that's 240 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:30,160 part of it. So we are close to our pain, close to the darkness that is part of light. But 241 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,720 that's why the light, the coming of light is so valuable and important. It's something 242 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,160 we want to celebrate at Christmas. 243 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:42,880 Yeah. And that reminds me of the prologue of John's gospel. This light has come in the 244 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:49,960 darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it. I mean, that is such a mystical passage 245 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,200 in scripture and you quote it twice in your book. 246 00:26:53,200 --> 00:27:03,440 Well, that's a remarkable mystical passage in the gospel. So I think what that opening 247 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:10,800 is saying to us is that in the beginning, to begin with, was the Logos. That's what 248 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:17,160 the gospel says. The Logos is a word that I don't translate. I have translated all the 249 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:23,880 gospels. I published a translation of the gospels. And in my translation of that, I 250 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:32,840 can't remember it exactly and don't have it with me, but it is that to begin was the Logos. 251 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:37,080 Sometimes they say the beginning was the word. That's how they translate Logos. It does mean 252 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:42,920 word, but it means something much deeper. It means the way things are. It means this 253 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:49,920 is the way things, this is how things work. This is how life is, Logos. That's what this 254 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:57,520 is. We have our word logic from it, but it's much more than logic. So I keep the word Logos, 255 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,640 the Greek word, because it's a mystical word. 256 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:07,440 The beginning was the Logos. That means that in the beginning, this world had meaning. 257 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:18,480 It had Logos to it. It had Logos. And the Logos was divine. And when we talk about God 258 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:24,240 and divine divinity, we are talking about, hardly about this source of a meaningful world 259 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:35,280 we live in. It's not chaos. And that's amazing. A lot of religions begin their stories of 260 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:42,920 origin by saying that the world is not chaotic. That's so important. There's order here. And 261 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:48,840 we are part of that order. So part of our job is to find the Logos in ourselves as human 262 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:55,560 beings. What does it mean to be a human being? How do they work? And also, our own selves 263 00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:05,800 individually. I'm Tom. How does Tom work? What is Tom's Logos? That's the question. 264 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:14,400 That's I think, and my translation is, and the darkness doesn't darken. The darkness 265 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:21,840 that is here doesn't extinguish us. We can live in darkness because we do have some source 266 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:28,920 of light. But that doesn't mean that we can't live in the dark because the dark doesn't 267 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:37,400 have to undo us. And at Christmas time, we realize that. We go through this advent of 268 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:42,520 darkness. The day is getting shorter and shorter where you wonder if there's any sun left. 269 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:48,960 And then suddenly it all turns around. Solstice. The solstice means, the word means that the 270 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:58,520 sun stands still. And so the sun stands still, then it turns and starts growing. So that's 271 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,640 a wonderful time to celebrate Christmas. 272 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:10,240 Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned in this darkness, we are particularly close to our pain. And 273 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:18,160 yet, as we just talked about, the light is still there. You've got a background in psychotherapy. 274 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:24,600 And I'm wondering, what kind of therapeutic direction might you give to someone who perhaps 275 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:31,760 struggles to find the beauty or magic of Christmas because of the holidays association with pain, 276 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:38,120 trauma or loss? This darkness that we're talking about, anything in your therapy background 277 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,640 that you think might be helpful for listeners? 278 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:53,040 Absolutely. All of therapy, that's the way I understand it, has to be not trying to create 279 00:30:53,040 --> 00:31:00,520 a life that is all light, where everything works out. No, you can't do that. Therapy 280 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:08,560 is to try to embrace the things, the sad things that happen, the mistakes that are made and 281 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:15,320 embrace those and acknowledge them. And maybe even understand in many cases, if not all, 282 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:23,960 how they play a role in your unfolding. Just as the more positive and the happier things 283 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:29,840 do. We don't have to choose one thing against the other. That has been part of religious 284 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,800 understanding for centuries, that there's good and there's evil in there and a fight 285 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:40,160 with each other. You don't have to look at it that way. And I think that's what I'm trying 286 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:49,240 to say about Christmas. You celebrate the solstice. What I really appreciate, and I've 287 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:55,060 lived in Ireland quite a bit in my life. And one of the things that I've done many times 288 00:31:55,060 --> 00:32:00,520 in Ireland is go to Newgrange, which is a prehistoric. Well, I don't know if prehistoric 289 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:10,200 is the word. It's 5,000 years old temple, sort of. And you can go and visit it now. 290 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:18,080 People go on the solstice there and they can go and you have to crawl inside. You really 291 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:25,520 have to get down on your knees to get in it. And you feel these very smooth but incredibly 292 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:32,140 powerful boulders that form this little entryway. It's just like a little triangular entry. 293 00:32:32,140 --> 00:32:37,560 You crawl through it and you feel it rubbing against your shoulders. I'm claustrophobic 294 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:43,760 myself, but somehow it doesn't bother me. And I go through this little entryway and 295 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:50,000 then you go through a little lower place and finally end up in a chamber inside this thing, 296 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:55,840 which is a wonderful thing to be in this chamber in the earth. And it looks like it's set 297 00:32:55,840 --> 00:33:01,680 up as a little temple, a little chapel. I mean, it's not made this way. This comes, 298 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:07,480 it's natural, natural stone and everything. But as you're there, if you're there on the 299 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:16,720 21st of the month of December, most years it's that date, and you see the sunrise when 300 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:23,120 the solstice has the sun return, the sun at this temple is built in such a way that the 301 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:29,760 sunlight comes into the temple only on that day. And that's the celebration of the sun 302 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:36,020 coming in now. That's pretty impressive. And you are mystical-minded, you're even psychologically 303 00:33:36,020 --> 00:33:45,600 minded in a deep way. You'll say, oh, this is my life. My life is always in darkness, 304 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:51,080 but there are always opportunities for this life, for the sun to show itself and to come 305 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:57,920 in and enter into my space and to give me light. So that Christmas is celebrated one 306 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:05,460 day of the year as the solstice is, but it can actually be part of our life all the time. 307 00:34:05,460 --> 00:34:11,040 So the sun is always rising and always setting. It's always dark and it's always light. 308 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:19,280 Yeah, which gets back to the Paschal mystery and at least in the Catholic tradition, the 309 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:25,480 notion of the Eucharist and communion, that it is the celebration of dying and rising 310 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:30,880 simultaneously. And it's a pattern for our own lives as well. 311 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:37,900 One of my favorite things about your book is, well, one of them is that on a personal 312 00:34:37,900 --> 00:34:45,960 level it helps to form within my own soul an openness to the magic of the Christmas 313 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:53,520 season. But then on a bigger level, I also love that this book brilliantly universalizes 314 00:34:53,520 --> 00:35:01,960 us. We tend to think of Christmas as a kind of Christian holiday and it certainly is and 315 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:07,420 has that background. But why would you say that Christmas and its spiritual significance 316 00:35:07,420 --> 00:35:14,080 is for everyone, non-Christians alike? Well, we just talked about how a little bit, 317 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:21,540 I didn't get into it too much, but how Christmas is rooted in the experience of solstice. That's 318 00:35:21,540 --> 00:35:28,960 for everybody. Solstice is something that everybody on the planet experience. And even 319 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:34,560 if you don't think about it too much, I think if you stand there and notice on the day of 320 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:39,920 the solstice that the light is the shortest and now the sun's going to start getting 321 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:47,200 brighter, that has an effect on your emotions and on maybe your plans for your life. And 322 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:53,000 so I think it's true. The solstice will be true of everybody. The solstice is a very 323 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:59,880 big foundation even for the Christian Christmas. So it's there. That's one thing. The other 324 00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:07,840 thing is that if you think of, I think it's a mistake. I'm speaking as a theologian now. 325 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:15,720 I think it's a big mistake that we have thought that Jesus created a religion and a religious 326 00:36:15,720 --> 00:36:22,600 institution. You don't get that in the gospel. It's just not there. People read back into 327 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:30,240 it that because that's what they've experienced, but it's not there. But he is suggesting that 328 00:36:30,240 --> 00:36:36,780 his kingdom is like the kingdom he talks about that he's announcing his kingdom is going 329 00:36:36,780 --> 00:36:42,080 to be different. It's not going to be based on laws. It's going to be based on love. He 330 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:49,400 couldn't be clearer about that. And so it's a different kind of realm in which you live. 331 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,680 A different realm. And it doesn't make any difference what your religion is. I mean, 332 00:36:53,680 --> 00:37:00,120 that has nothing to do with it as far as I can see. Nothing whatsoever to do with it. 333 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:05,560 But it has everything to do with how you are as a human being. Because we have emphasized 334 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:13,880 the most belonging and all the history and rituals of religion that it has really severely 335 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:25,480 limited the gospel teaching. And it's not that the institution couldn't embody and 336 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:32,840 help spread the word of this teaching, but it doesn't. It tends to emphasize belonging 337 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:39,240 and observance of rules, which are exactly contrary to the gospel teaching. So I'd rather 338 00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:46,280 be a person who follows the gospel than someone who's a member of the religion. And when 339 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:51,720 it comes to Christmas, if you want to be a member of the religion primarily and follow 340 00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:56,560 the rules, please say, okay. I know when I grew up, there were two kinds of people in 341 00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:03,000 the world, Catholics and non-Catholics. What I was always taught, that's a weird way of 342 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:09,160 being in the world. And I mean, what about the Buddhists and the Daoists and the Jews 343 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:17,600 and the Muslims? You know, what about that? Do we just discount all these brilliant ways 344 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:24,080 of imagining human life and guiding human life? That's a, I think all these are big 345 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:30,680 mistakes. So if you can get past them at all, even just a little bit, you will see that 346 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:37,480 the teachings of Christmas are not for believers and belongers, people who sign up for this 347 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:43,040 religion. They are for every human being. That's what it's about. Every human being 348 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:51,480 has to deal with negativity in life and discover light over and over again. That's what Christmas 349 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,920 is. Every human being could discover that there's a way of being in this world, but 350 00:38:55,920 --> 00:39:01,280 you're not going to be counting all your money all the time, but discovering ways to give 351 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:02,280 gifts. 352 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:11,480 Yeah. And in your emphasis there on humanity, I can't help but think, obviously, going back 353 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:16,920 to the prologue of John's gospel, you know, at the beginning was the word and the word 354 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:23,800 was God and the word becomes flesh. And there, whether you're, like you said, whether you're 355 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:29,880 a Christian or not, whether you believe that to be literally true or not, my argument would 356 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:37,600 be that there is something really beneficial psychologically and soulfully about daring 357 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:45,760 to believe the reality that God can become human, that the divine incarnates in our physical 358 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,080 reality. Do you have any thoughts on that? 359 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:55,160 Well, that's what Christmas is too, theologically in a Christian way. It's about the incarnation. 360 00:39:55,160 --> 00:40:02,480 It's about the fact that the divinity can take on flesh, can be part of life, can be 361 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:10,160 on earth. So let's imagine that there are two tiers to this world. One is infinite and 362 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:20,080 divine, transcendent, and the other is just basic human life. I think what the Christmas 363 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:29,960 is teaching is that that divinity and their transcendence can be expressed and lived in 364 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:38,200 human lives. They can come together. And what we're seeing in the figure of Jesus, for those 365 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:47,640 who can imagine it that way, are interested in his story as their way of life and as describing 366 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:54,360 how things are, the logos of them. Then you can say that part of that is that what Jesus 367 00:40:54,360 --> 00:41:01,000 describes in his way of life and in his teaching is a way to be both transcendent and earthy 368 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:07,360 at the same time. Two sides of him are very interesting. I like to give talks on Jesus 369 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:16,360 and food because he was so interested in food. But he brings them together at the Last Supper. 370 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:23,360 He makes them magical and mystical. Food, bread and wine now becomes mystical. So the 371 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,640 transcendent and the ordinary come together again. 372 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:31,960 Yeah. Can you go a little bit deeper into that phrase for me? I love that. It's beautiful. 373 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:36,740 The transcendent and the earthy, the transcendent and the ordinary. What does that look like 374 00:41:36,740 --> 00:41:39,440 in our everyday life? 375 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:45,040 It means that very simply, it's a lot simpler than it sounds. I think what it means is that 376 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:51,040 any of us as human beings can just try to get along in life the best we can according 377 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:59,840 to our common standards. But at other times we can actually transcend. We can go past 378 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:07,080 that ordinary human way of doing things and adopt values that are much bigger, that are 379 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:13,280 higher in a way than that. I think a lot of people that we have seen, we've known people 380 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:23,400 in our history who give so much to us because they give us a higher viewpoint. I think the 381 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:31,280 best example for Americans is Martin Luther King. He just wanted to be a theologian teaching 382 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:37,720 at a university and he got a call from Birmingham to go down there and help the people who were 383 00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:43,840 trying to do something about justice. He had a choice to make. He and his wife both wanted 384 00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:49,320 to be university professors. That's what they were headed for. But he took the call and 385 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:56,000 he went down, I mean the phone call, and he went down to Birmingham and he became Martin 386 00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:02,520 Luther King, I think a transcendent person. When we say Martin Luther King today, we don't 387 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:08,720 mean this man who wanted to get a job at a university. We don't think of him that way. 388 00:43:08,720 --> 00:43:15,560 He's this man who embodied in everything he did. He embodied the transcendent values, 389 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:23,720 divine values of justice, of equality, these things that human beings don't get by themselves. 390 00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:32,440 These are overarching, high values that the religions teach as high values, but we don't 391 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:37,280 take that too seriously. And Martin Luther King did. There are other people who have 392 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:44,320 done, obviously, who have done something similar. They went out and given themselves. I think 393 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:49,920 ordinary people can do that too. We all can find that transcendent thing within us where 394 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:58,680 we go beyond ourselves. That's like Christmas happening again. The divine has become incarnated 395 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:05,600 in this child. And here we are. Now we are an infant in doing this. We are an infant. 396 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:11,320 But we are going to grow into someone maybe who can really bring that divine transcendent 397 00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,920 vision to the world around us. We can all do that. 398 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:20,040 Yeah. How did Christmas help form your own soul? 399 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:27,880 Well, I think the way it began, for me, my memories of early Christmas are with my mother 400 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:38,380 and father in our very little house in Detroit where we had very little money. I remember 401 00:44:38,380 --> 00:44:43,200 one year I was given a bicycle, beautiful bicycle, red bicycle for Christmas, and I 402 00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:48,280 just loved it. And I discovered a few years later that it was my uncle's bike that they 403 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:55,240 had repainted, my dad painted to make it new for me. And they were doing that sort of thing 404 00:44:55,240 --> 00:45:02,760 a lot and trying to give me a special experience of Christmas. So to me, Christmas was like 405 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:09,480 time set apart. It was a special day. You get up at Christmas and it was a special day. 406 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:15,160 Now maybe people could say, reduce it and say, oh, the kids like to get gifts. Well, 407 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:21,620 yeah, but getting a gift is a deep, deep experience for a person. Very important for children 408 00:45:21,620 --> 00:45:30,800 to get a gift at any time, especially at Christmas. So I feel that I learned Christmas through 409 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:36,360 my family. They took it seriously. My mother and father were very devout Catholics. We 410 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:41,520 would go to church and that was a special thing because the lights were always bright 411 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:49,160 at the Christmas church, Christmas mass. But the family got together and people exchanged 412 00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:58,960 simple gifts, nothing much, and celebrated the cheerfulness of Christmas. So all of that, 413 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:03,120 I think those are real values of Christmas. When people say, what's the real meaning of 414 00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:09,840 Christmas? It's having a good dinner, exchanging gifts, having a tree in your house. That's 415 00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:19,560 what it is. It's nothing theological. It's simple, but it's profound at the same time. 416 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:29,360 Yeah, I have a two and a half year old at home and a six month old. My wife and I, we've 417 00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:34,080 enjoyed, particularly with our two and a half year old because of his awareness now. It's 418 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:41,240 very interesting that you kind of, the aspects of your heart that perhaps maybe became cynical 419 00:46:41,240 --> 00:46:47,680 or jaded along the way that all of a sudden seeing things through the eyes of your little 420 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:52,760 ones, it opens you up in a way to the magic that they're experiencing. 421 00:46:52,760 --> 00:47:03,240 Yes, totally, completely. I think of our children when they were small, they would get up about 422 00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:11,280 four AM to go ahead and get their gifts for Christmas. My wife and I would think, oh no, 423 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:15,280 it's Christmas day. We have to get up very early because they can't stand it. They have 424 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:21,280 to go down, be part of the Christmas celebration. It's wonderful that children are so drawn 425 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:26,160 to it and can appreciate it. Not everybody, I understand, so many children are deprived 426 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:32,640 of that. And that's the sad part. We have to, I think, be good to push Christmas a little 427 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:37,680 more. And I think it's a great thing, by the way, going back to another theme of yours, 428 00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:43,680 that people who are not Christians can adopt Christmas and make it their own because it 429 00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:49,360 doesn't belong to Christianity. Christianity is one dimension of it if you want to have 430 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:55,760 that. But even Christianity is much deeper if you go into it, like we're trying to get 431 00:47:55,760 --> 00:48:03,040 there today to the deeper level. So the deeper you go into it, the less it's limited to card 432 00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:08,920 carrying Christians and more to everybody to experience that. And it's a sad thing when 433 00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:14,960 children don't, so many children are raised in poverty and ignorance where they can't 434 00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:21,240 have that experience. But those of us lucky enough to have it and parents like you being 435 00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:26,400 able to continue and give it to their children, it's a wonderful thing. If you understand 436 00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:32,360 that you're giving them, don't think of it as something materialistic, giving children 437 00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:40,800 things. No, those things are representative of a gift-giving way of life. They are learning 438 00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:49,160 how to give gifts. And if you can help them with that, gift-giving as the season goes, 439 00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:53,160 when Christmas comes along, that would really help them a lot. 440 00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:58,680 Yeah, yeah. A lot of what you've been talking about the last five, seven minutes is it's 441 00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:04,960 really revolved around this notion of experience, encounter, as the word Pope Francis would 442 00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:11,480 use is one thing to have a bunch of theology in your head and regurgitate it. It's quite 443 00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:19,200 another thing to like last night, my son and I, he made cookies with my wife all day and 444 00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:28,480 then we delivered cookies to our neighbor and he said, Merry Christmas, Alan. You know, 445 00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:29,480 that's more theology. 446 00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:35,080 Yeah, totally. It's a lived theology. You don't want to make theology into something 447 00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:41,320 totally rationalistic, you know, and mental. It's not that. Especially, yes, theology is 448 00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:48,400 about a way of life. And I think by seeing these images and symbols of Christmas, it 449 00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:56,400 takes you deeper into it so that you're not at that level of belief and rules or expectations 450 00:49:56,400 --> 00:50:02,000 or trying to be good or anything like that. You are just being a human being and discovering 451 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:07,560 that giving gifts and being open and having some cheer in your life and giving that to 452 00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:14,120 your neighbors, that is what it's all about. That's what it's all about. It's not what 453 00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:19,920 you believe in, in some sort of theological way. That is, that's where things have gone 454 00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:25,240 and the word is, it hasn't, that hasn't made a peaceful world. We could make a peaceful 455 00:50:25,240 --> 00:50:28,840 world if we took Christmas more, more deeply. 456 00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:32,880 Yeah, I know you've gone into that a little bit, but could you go a little bit deeper 457 00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:39,720 into that notion that if we took Christmas, if we approach Christmas in a deeper sense, 458 00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:41,560 we could bring more peace into the world? 459 00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:49,360 Well, how, I don't know how to, how we can actually get to that point. You know, you 460 00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:56,560 know, people like me, we try to, we try to let people know there's another way of thinking 461 00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:05,680 about it. But we get, like I get reactions, I get negative responses to my saying things 462 00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:12,800 like this. I won't, well, I won't go into it. I don't want to go into that too much. 463 00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:21,640 But I think if we were to just understand Christmas a little more deeply, just a few 464 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:26,400 of these ideas we're discussing today, not the whole ball of wax, the whole thing, because 465 00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:32,600 that's asking too much. But if people understand just the simple idea that first of all, they 466 00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:37,840 understood about solstice and light. They could go out and just look at the night sky 467 00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:43,560 and see that's part of your Christmas experience. It's dark. And think about the darkness in 468 00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:51,760 your own life and other Christmases. You know, your story is not, is not about death, dealing 469 00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:57,440 with death at Christmas time. It's very common. There are a lot of deaths at Christmas, where 470 00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:02,600 people do remember people who were not here, who were here last Christmas. Death is part 471 00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:09,800 of it. And bringing that into it and having a deeper reflection on life and understanding 472 00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:16,020 that the world is much more meaningful than you think. And that the sky, the nature we 473 00:52:16,020 --> 00:52:24,200 live in is part of the meaning of our life. And that's why we bring the tree into our 474 00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:29,880 house. We're bringing nature into our homes to get over that separation between us and 475 00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:37,320 the natural world. And that's part of a, that's all of that comes together to make Christmas. 476 00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,640 There's one thing I'm afraid we might miss it. And you might want to bring it up, but 477 00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:47,080 I'll bring it up now. Is we haven't talked about Santa Claus. And I love- 478 00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:49,080 Yeah, please. That'd be great. Yeah. 479 00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:50,080 That'll be. 480 00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:51,080 Yeah. 481 00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:58,480 I love Santa Claus. First of all, the name Santa means holy. So if we want to call him 482 00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:04,520 Santa, which I like a lot, that would mean the Holy One. That's a good way to look at 483 00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:13,200 him, the Holy One. Not some funny little figure from Walt Disney. Although Disney's not too 484 00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:21,760 bad at times. But Santa is a holy figure. And imagine what he represents. He is so much 485 00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:28,160 like other holy figures. He is found at the North Pole, which is like saying he's in another 486 00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:34,560 realm. He's not, he's not of this realm. He's of another realm that we need. He's 487 00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:40,320 from that transcendent realm at the North Pole. It's a great image for him. He goes 488 00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:47,400 across the sky. That's where the divine is found. That's where, you know, that's where 489 00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:53,840 the angels appear. That's another, it's where the shaman visits when he goes into a trance. 490 00:53:53,840 --> 00:54:01,160 It's a, it's in a transcendent realm. That's where Santa lives or works. That's his realm. 491 00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:08,240 He has a, he has a conduit to ordinary life. Just as we bring a Christmas tree into a house, 492 00:54:08,240 --> 00:54:14,600 he can come down the chimney. So the chimney is like this connection between heaven and 493 00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:21,960 earth. And he comes down the chimney. And we, one tradition is that we give Santa some 494 00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:30,160 food when he arrives. We give him something because we are welcoming him into this realm. 495 00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:36,120 That spirit of gift giving, he's got a sleigh full of gifts. That spirit of gift giving, 496 00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:43,640 which is there in the divine realm, now can be in each family, in an each person coming 497 00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:53,000 through the chimney, reaching us, you know, having a way of getting to us. And he is, 498 00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:59,680 he has his own mantra. You know, a lot of religions have mantras where they have things 499 00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:06,240 that they, little phrases that they say sometimes in their favorite languages, but little short 500 00:55:06,240 --> 00:55:18,200 phrases. I don't know, Lord have mercy, they say some places. Little mantras, his is, ho 501 00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:28,880 ho, that's his mantra. Ho ho ho, that's his special sacred little chant. And he has bells 502 00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:37,040 ring as a common too, or when the angels appear or when the holy is present. That other realm 503 00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:44,840 has a bell ring. He has these little things that jingle. All these things are related 504 00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:53,800 to Santa. He's dressed in his own priestly garb, you might say, in his red and white 505 00:55:53,800 --> 00:56:04,400 uniform. And we recognize him from that. And he is carried by the, he is propelled by reindeer. 506 00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:10,640 So he has this animal connection, which is so important in the religions generally to 507 00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:19,480 have an animal, part of life. So I think that Santa, and he gives gifts, that Santa embodies 508 00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:26,920 all these values of Christmas. And he should not be denigrated or put down. It's very important 509 00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:34,360 Santa, the holy, showing us what it means to be in the Christmas spirit. And he's saying, 510 00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:39,880 ho ho ho, that's like saying, this is what you should be doing, just as the Buddha might 511 00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:45,960 have a different gesture or phrase that's going to show you how to live. Santa tells 512 00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:51,800 us how to live with this good spirit. Yeah. And here's another religion parallel. Curious 513 00:56:51,800 --> 00:57:01,120 what you think about this. But I mean, Santa in a lot of ways has, has unfortunately been 514 00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:08,680 transformed into something that promotes legalism. You know, like you only get gifts if you do 515 00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:15,680 this, if you're good or bad, you know, and I mean, in, but the Santa you're describing, 516 00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:21,240 again, we're in the realm of symbol again, but the Santa you're describing, it's magical, 517 00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:26,520 you know, there are sacred elements to it. There's a story behind it. There's an origin 518 00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:34,640 behind it. And to me, I mean, unfortunately, that's what religion has become is it's, you 519 00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:43,920 know, this angry, usually masculine figure up in the sky who is, you know, cosmically 520 00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:51,160 shaking his finger at you. And really, I mean, let's bring magic back, you know, like let's 521 00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:59,160 bring grace and love and compassion and even some things that may be hard to believe like 522 00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:03,600 God becoming a human baby. You know, that's very hard to believe, but what if we dared 523 00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:09,140 to believe it? You know what I'm saying? Like there's, there's always this tendency in any 524 00:58:09,140 --> 00:58:15,080 religious thought to kind of lean more toward the logical and lean more toward the formula 525 00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:21,400 or do this, this and this to make so and so happy where we're missing out on the sacred 526 00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:27,080 in the depth and immensity of that. If we go that direction. Yeah, we've taken the Santa 527 00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:35,160 out of Santa Claus. Yes. Yeah. The holy. Yeah. So yeah, that's right. Absolutely. We, in 528 00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:39,920 order to live this way, which is more mystical, I think to really live Christmas, you need 529 00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:45,160 to enter a certain level of mysticism. Doesn't mean anything huge, just a little bit, you 530 00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:51,480 know, just a little inch in that direction. But if you can do that, your life would be 531 00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:57,400 transformed because human beings are only fulfilled when they are both body, soul and 532 00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:04,040 spirit. When they have that spirit, meaning that divine transcendent realm is really in 533 00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:11,920 your life. That means that you, you live by some values that are, that are, don't seem, 534 00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:17,640 don't seem wise from a purely earthly point of view, but from a transcendent point of 535 00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:23,960 view make a lot of sense. So we have to reach that point where we can live in all three 536 00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:31,600 realms of the body, the soul and the spirit. Yeah. I know we're coming up on the hour. 537 00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:35,800 Do you have anything else that you'd like to talk about or anything that I left out? 538 00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:41,480 It's really a beautiful book and I encourage our listeners to get it. I mean, it's, it 539 00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:46,120 really helps to create that posture of openness in the heart to what this season can be. So 540 00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:52,480 anything else you'd like to dive into? Just show you the book. This is the soul of Christmas. 541 00:59:52,480 --> 01:00:00,300 It's a very short book, 140 pages. I say that because I've been writing short books lately 542 01:00:00,300 --> 01:00:06,720 and people tell me, I really like this new book of yours. It's short. People like short 543 01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:13,320 books. So I would say there are many other things that we did not discuss that are in 544 01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:24,840 here that, you know, we could, not many, but some things we didn't discuss. And I would 545 01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:32,360 say one thing that we didn't talk about that I love, one of my favorite subjects is angels 546 01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:41,160 related to Christmas. According to the gospel as well as it's in the gospel. A lot of these 547 01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:48,320 things are not in the gospel, but the angels are. Angel, the word means a message or messenger, 548 01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:54,840 either one, messenger or message. And the angel is really, in the Christian view context, 549 01:00:54,840 --> 01:01:01,240 the angel is the go between, between the transcendent realm and the earthly realm. So when it gets 550 01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:06,160 between, that's why the angels have wings, because they can fly between the lower earthly 551 01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:12,400 realm, metaphorically speaking, can fly between the earthly realm and the transcendent realm. 552 01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:19,000 In all religions and most religions, you see that there are ways to connect the transcendent 553 01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:25,720 and the earthly. And very often the figures that do that are imaged as winged figures. 554 01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:35,120 They have wings. So an angel is a winged messenger, essentially, a go between. The corresponding 555 01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:41,400 figure in Greek religion, for example, would be Hermes, the god Hermes, where he has wings 556 01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:49,920 and his shoes. Those help him go between the earthly realm and the realm of the gods. It's 557 01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:56,240 very common. But we don't believe in angels. I do. Most people don't. I believe angels 558 01:01:56,240 --> 01:02:00,880 are very real. Now, I don't mean that they are real in the sense that a cloud in the 559 01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:08,480 sky is real. I don't mean physically, tangibly there. But I mean real in the sense that I 560 01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:17,920 feel that there are moments when the angel makes itself known in my life. In protection, 561 01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:25,240 for example, I remember once driving my car. I was in Hartford, Connecticut. I didn't see 562 01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:32,840 a stop sign. Very wide street must have had five or six lanes. And the stop sign was way, 563 01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:37,440 way over on the side of the street. And I just went straight on thinking that the street 564 01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:45,480 just kept going. And a cement truck came at me. And I was sure it was over for me because 565 01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:53,600 I knew I couldn't stop in time. I just, my foot just instinctively slammed into the brain. 566 01:02:53,600 --> 01:03:00,040 And shocking to me, I didn't hit the truck. I was certain the truck was right there. I 567 01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:06,240 think that's, to me, that's a pretty good image of an angel. For me, I can take that's 568 01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:14,320 real. The sense that I have been saved from disaster by something that I can't explain 569 01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:19,600 or control. I don't mean out there. I don't mean some actual energy there. I mean, this 570 01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:27,400 was the experience in my life of being saved from being really smashed. And I think that's 571 01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:34,000 a good way of talking about angels. Do you see what I'm saying? There's no angel. There's 572 01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:40,640 no figure there. There's no being there. What the experience shows that life has this quality 573 01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:42,200 of protection something. 574 01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:46,520 And it leads you to gratitude and reverence. 575 01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:52,520 It does. And I don't have to use the word angel, but I think it's a good one because 576 01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:59,320 it's traditional for what angels do. And see, see what I'm saying. It's very hard to describe 577 01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:05,360 this. I'm not putting that into any kind of being out there that stepped in. I'm just 578 01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:11,280 saying that this is life. It's a quality of life that you get protected sometimes. 579 01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:17,840 Yeah. And it's a transcendent quality of life. That is very, that is very real. Whether you 580 01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:23,360 believe in literal angels or not, that's not the thing. It's, do you believe that life 581 01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:32,200 as it is has a transcendent realm to it? And angels open that up for us. Or a belief in 582 01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:38,640 the incarnation or Santa Claus or the spiritual depth of your Christmas tree that's shining 583 01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:45,320 bright in your living room. All these things are portals too. There's something deeper 584 01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:50,960 going on here in my life. Do I really believe that or have I just been on autopilot? 585 01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:58,200 Yeah. For example, should you just at times of the solstice, like this week coming up, 586 01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:04,120 should we just listen to the weather report and find out from the meteorologist what is 587 01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:10,720 happening? Or can we go to the religions and discover, oh, they can guide us into understanding 588 01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:17,480 that this is something meaningful to us. There's logos there. That's why it looked at the beginning 589 01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:25,040 in John. To begin, there is the logos. And that's what it means it's meaningful. This 590 01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:30,520 world is meaningful. Don't, let's not live in a mechanical world that doesn't have meaning. 591 01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:36,920 So we can't go from meaning to the meteorologist. Maybe in the future they will do that, but 592 01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:43,080 they don't do it today. They just give us the facts. And that's not enough to live in. 593 01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:50,280 Human beings are not just facts. We are people with emotions and imagination and understanding. 594 01:05:50,280 --> 01:05:57,840 We have to have all those things addressed in any experience we have. So I think that's 595 01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:05,440 true of the, like you were just saying, you can choose. Are you going to live? I think, 596 01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:11,960 see, I would put it religiously or not. To me, it's religious to be open to the mistruths 597 01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:16,920 around us. And I don't care if you're a member of a church or not, you may not be religious 598 01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:22,840 if you're a member of a church. Possibly. But do you have a religious sense? Do you 599 01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:29,120 realize that some things are sacred? That tree is sacred. Can you agree to that? That 600 01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:34,920 tree that you're bringing into your house has a sacredness to it? I would say if you 601 01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:37,040 can, you're a religious person. 602 01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:43,080 Yeah, absolutely. And going back to Logos, like you said earlier, the word that's often 603 01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:51,720 used interchangeably is word. I love that notion too, because if the word dwells within 604 01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:58,680 physical reality itself, I mean, all of a sudden, and I have to give credit to one of 605 01:06:58,680 --> 01:07:04,160 my mentors, Father Dan Riley, worked on a book with him called Franciscan Lexio, where 606 01:07:04,160 --> 01:07:08,500 he broke the word open. We usually think of reading the word as just reading scripture 607 01:07:08,500 --> 01:07:16,420 or reading words on a page. However, the word in and around us and through us, we're invited 608 01:07:16,420 --> 01:07:22,360 to read that. We're invited to read the sacred dimensions of the Christmas tree. We're invited 609 01:07:22,360 --> 01:07:29,060 to read the sacred dimensions of that moment you described when the cement truck is coming 610 01:07:29,060 --> 01:07:34,680 at you and you miraculously survive. To read the sacred in that and perhaps be stirred 611 01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:40,760 to wonder or all or gratitude or whatever it may be. I mean, there's levels here. There's 612 01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:45,320 a spiritual dimension to things that we may typically just overlook. 613 01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:50,080 That's right. Absolutely. It wore all the way. 614 01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:56,120 Well, you've got me all worked up now. So I better let you read this passage and free 615 01:07:56,120 --> 01:08:03,200 you from the podcast. But yeah, you have a beautiful section, Thomas, subsection in your 616 01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:07,920 chapter about Mary, I believe, and it's called a mystical Christmas. And I was wondering 617 01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:12,240 if you could read the first four paragraphs of that and send us out into our holiday season. 618 01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:19,160 Yeah, thank you for inviting that. Christmas offers an opportunity to get in touch with 619 01:08:19,160 --> 01:08:26,880 your own mystical side. We are all potential mystics. Just stand still in the presence 620 01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:34,800 of a beautiful sunset and your mysticism will be activated. An essential ingredient is wonder 621 01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:43,600 and the capacity to become absorbed, to lose yourself for a moment in wonder or contemplation. 622 01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:49,320 Read on the nativity scene in your town or neighborhood. Have one in your home, whatever 623 01:08:49,320 --> 01:08:55,920 your spiritual preferences are. Don't take it lightly. Nothing could be more important 624 01:08:55,920 --> 01:09:02,520 than finding ways to incorporate in your person and your life the moment when the spiritual 625 01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:09,600 realm fully intersects with your ordinary life. You may feel there is no room for you 626 01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:18,160 in the end of religion or community or tradition. That's an appropriate feeling for this time. 627 01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:24,600 Find your own state, your humble place in the world. Let the revelation happen. Listen 628 01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:32,360 for the angels announcing the good news that another life has been redeemed and transformed. 629 01:09:32,360 --> 01:09:38,760 At Christmastime, we can all discover the Christos in us and the Virgin Mary as well, 630 01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:46,000 the maternal, feminine, mystical figure who can say yes to life. Imitating Mary, you say, 631 01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:52,960 let it be. Let me be the vessel. I don't know what it's all about, but if it furthers life, 632 01:09:52,960 --> 01:10:00,000 I am willing. I want to be the means by which human life advances. 633 01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:05,160 Thank you, Thomas. I appreciate you coming on off the page and Merry Christmas. 634 01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:14,240 Merry Christmas to you, and I hope you have a wonderful time with your children. 635 01:10:14,240 --> 01:10:20,000 Once again, that was Thomas More. Thomas's book, The Soul of Christmas, is available 636 01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:27,920 in the Franciscan Media Store at shop.franciscanmedia.org or wherever you order your books. A huge 637 01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:32,880 thanks to our sponsor, the Franciscan School of Theology, and to Thomas More for joining 638 01:10:32,880 --> 01:10:38,960 us on off the page. Thank you, as always, to you for tuning in and supporting this podcast, 639 01:10:38,960 --> 01:10:43,240 and I invite you to please consider leaving a review or sharing it with your friends or 640 01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:49,480 family. This is Stephen Copeland signing off. Merry Christmas from all of us at Franciscan 641 01:10:49,480 --> 01:11:04,160 Media. Peace and all good.