Welcome to Off the Page. I'm Stephen Copeland. In the recent United States presidential election,
neither of the two major political parties made environment or climate change a focus
in their campaigns. The unfortunate truth, one could conclude, is that environmental concerns do
not motivate the masses to vote. It is this kind of apathy and disconnect from nature that Franciscan
friar, author, and professor Keith Douglas Warner has spent much of his career addressing. Could it
be that beneath our apathy and disconnect is a spiritual problem? How can Franciscan eco-spirituality
help all people to recover a relationship with creation that has been lost? It is my pleasure
to share with you this interview with Keith Douglas Warner. Brother Keith, OFM, is associate
professor of ethics and spirituality at the Franciscan School of Theology in San Diego.
He is a practical social ethicist in the Franciscan tradition and teaches eco-spirituality,
social entrepreneurship, and moral theology. In 2007, he helped author the award-winning Care
for Creation, a Franciscan spirituality of the earth, with Elia Delio, OSF, and Pamela Wood.
He recently worked to write an expanded edition of Care for Creation, which will be released in
December 2024. The expanded edition includes extensive front and back matter, which delve
into Pope Francis' 2015 encyclical, Laudato Si, on care for our common home. I'm honored to share
this interview with you as we near the 10th anniversary of Laudato Si and the 800-year
anniversary of St. Francis of Assisi's poem, Canticle of the Creatures. You can order the
expanded edition of Care for Creation by visiting shop.franciscanmedia.org. I hope you enjoy this
interview with Keith Douglas Warner, but first a message from our sponsor.
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Again, that's the theologicalstudies.sandiego.edu.
Keith Douglas Warner, thank you for joining the Off the Page podcast.
Glad to be with you, Stephen. Can you talk about your own journey into this field of
eco-spirituality? I mean, that is a field that maybe some people have not heard of before.
Good. Yes, happy to do so. Eco-spirituality really is an experience of God and faith and prayer
in relationship to nature and how one lives one's life. And so for me, this really began
as a result of some completely unexpected events in my life. When I was 18,
I was going to school at University of California, Davis, and I met this very inspirational
ecumenical faith community of young adults who were living very strong biblical Christian ideals.
You could also call it a Jesus Freak Hippie Commune. And so I dropped out of school. I was
so inspired by them. It wasn't because I wasn't doing well academically, but it just seemed like
it just seemed like what they were, how they were living and what they were doing in their life
project was so much more compelling than going to school. And so we moved to rural Oregon.
We sponsored migrants and refugees. We had a Christian rock and roll band. We showed the film
Brother Son, Sister Moon. This was a late 70s. So even though that movie is seems a little like a
period piece now, it was very inspirational to me at the time. And it's definitely worth watching.
But we had a reforestation co-op and that's how we made our money. And so for me, this was this
dramatic immersion into the forests of Oregon, Washington, Northern California, Colorado,
Wyoming, and Montana. And so wherever they would go through and cut down trees and log them and
create these clear cuts, which really are ugly and they're highly problematic from an
ecological perspective, we would go in and plant little baby trees. And so these trees would be
like 18 inches tall, maybe. And we would plant 500, a thousand, 1500, even 2000 a day. And so
this was a very heavy work, but it was also done under the open sky. And in Oregon, that meant
pouring rain most of the time. So we would work out in the elements and it was brutally hard work,
but I discovered a beauty about creation there that I had as a result of really being surrounded
by creation, even creation that had been suffering from human abuse, there was still this majesty
about these ancient forests and the fact that we would participate in some small way in trying to
bring back life in these places that had been devastated for economic exploitation reasons.
And so this really was an experience of being largely in silence in nature for most of the year
for five years. It left a profound impact on me. It taught me things about the material nature of
life and the interdependence of life and the relationship between prayer and beauty and
healing and God's awesome creative power. And so I began to ask questions, why did no one seem to be
paying attention to our environmental problems when it seemed like this was like a natural kind
of visceral experience. And that wasn't the only one, maybe it wasn't something people would talk
about in church. It wasn't back in the 80s, but it was certainly something that was consistent with
the Pope with St. Francis's experience. And I thought, wow, how awesome is this? What? Here's
an example. And so this was left a profound kind of imprint on my spiritual awareness and thinking
of this also in terms of an obligation to act, obligation to act out of love and gratitude.
And even though I, well, at the time wasn't really fully clear on the limitations of a lot
of environmental discourse led by NGOs and advocacy organizations, I still felt like this is
something that's morally and religiously compelling. So when the first, that community fell apart,
I looked around and I said, well, I think I want to pursue this in a more intentional sort of way.
So that's when I decided, I discerned the call to become a Franciscan friar. So I did that actually.
I began the process. I wasn't Catholic, so I went through an RCIA process and then
joined the Franciscans back here in the West coast. And so I've been a friar ever since.
And my vocation director, who was a very strong influence in my life, he also had a lot of
environmental background, horticulturalist, did graduate studies in theology, wrote his master's
thesis in theology on liberation theology and the destruction of the Amazon rainforest.
So he said, well, it's really great that you're interested in this integration,
but I need to tell you before you sign up, there's not a lot of established pathways in
Franciscan religious life for it. There's sort of like a dawning awareness that we need to be
doing some of this, but we don't know how. So I started to think about this, and I thought,
well, so in Spanish, there's a nice little saying, el camino se hace por caminar,
the road is made by walking. And so that's been a part of my life, is trying to show people,
including my own Franciscan brothers, that it's possible and that God desires that there be an
integration between our spiritual life and our spiritual practices and our relationship with God
and our understanding of ourself and responsible ecological awareness and action. So that's been a
long-term dimension of my vocational journey as a Franciscan these 30 something odd years.
I thought that becoming a Franciscan was enough to show that off, but apparently
that wasn't what my provincial at the time thought. So he encouraged me to pursue higher
studies. So I went to the University of California, Santa Cruz for a doctorate in
environmental studies. And so I did spend five years writing about sustainable agriculture and
social networks. It was very good. And I got a credential as a result of that. And then that
really allowed me to teach, but also frankly, even though it sometimes feels a little kind of like
a funny juggle, the reality is, people pay more attention to me as a Franciscan with a doctorate
than just a kind of a crazy Franciscan who has crazy ideas. And that seems to be the way the world
works for better or worse. It's given me actually access to a lot more resources to be able to help
students and organizations to engage in this kind of work. So I've taught a lot of environmental
ethics, Franciscan spirituality. I've worked a lot on sustainable development projects using
social enterprise techniques and strategies. And so I've also written an awful lot about this
in the English speaking Franciscan world. And so now I teach about it and I'm active in the
Diocese of San Diego here, which is led by Cardinal McElroy, who's a very firm supporter of Loud Out to
C and his message. So that's a little bit about my own work, both kind of the practitioner side of
things, working with people in communities, working at teaching, helping students to do this,
trying to influence the Friars and other Franciscan institutions to incorporate more of this kind of
perspective and thinking, and then also writing about this for audiences that are both specialized
in general. Yeah, I have so many questions. Could we go back to when you were 18 and you find this
hippie Jesus Movement group? I think that's the way you described it. What was your family,
what were your friends reactions when you went away with this group into the forests?
Well, Stephen, this was a long time ago now. And even when I tell my students about this,
they get intrigued and want to know if that's something that's available to them. And I was
like, no, the 70s are over. So it's hard. We're bringing it back. We're bringing it back.
So it seems very hard to capture it here in 2024 on the kind of the aftermath of the recent election,
the direction of American society. It just seems very incompatible with our ideals back then here,
especially on the left coast, where we were really looking at ecological consciousness. It was just
part of how large sectors of society were beginning to think and still do. But in terms of
putting myself back in this movement, well, like I said, this is a long time ago, and it wasn't very
far removed from the Jonestown mass suicide event by a cult in South America. So a lot of people,
including my parents, were definitely afraid that I was joining a similar group.
But it was really a question of ideals and how to fulfill one's ideals and how we wanted to
make the world a better place and be more faithful people than taking a very strong
stance towards simple living, towards outreach and proclaiming good news to others.
And this was really kind of in the same kind of era. We were very strongly influenced by
Jim Wallis and Sojourners. We were strongly influenced by the L'Arche Community Movement,
by Joan Chidister and her work, by Richard Rohr. So these were all kind of people that we thought
about as sort of like good teachers that we were trying to figure out how to translate that into
how we would actually live together. And they were about, at the height, there were about 50 of us,
men, women, singles, families. It was very interesting, but it was a very long time ago now.
Yeah, you said you didn't grow up Catholic, correct?
Right.
So how did you learn about St. Francis and this Franciscan way of life?
Oh, well, I first heard about it through Brother, Son, Sister Moon, because this OOP was going around
showing it as a movie, as a kind of a form of outreach and discipleship, evangelization.
So I was very moved by that. Of course, I had to sort of like kind of be deprogrammed by some of
the not quite so historically accurate pieces in that movie, but it still captures the spirit,
especially in light of the post Vietnam era. And so then I read Murray Bodo's The Journey
and the Dream. I practically memorized it. And then I was very surprised in my later years with
that group when I discovered that Franciscan still existed. It's like, really? Oh, how come I didn't
know about this? And then when that my old group fell apart, then I was like, oh, I'm going to
be a Franciscan. Then this is what that was the next logical move. And so, yeah, I would say that,
you know, there are lots of different avenues into the Franciscans. And some people are very
Catholic and they want to become priests and they like St. Francis and they kind of come in one door.
But me, I was sort of like really committed to a Franciscan way of living in the contemporary
world. And so that's sort of like, pointed me towards this business of teaching and learning
and formation and education and outreach, both in the Franciscan spirit, spiritual tradition
of today, and also for fostering kind of a more just, humane and sustainable world.
Nat Fertig Yeah, yeah, you mentioned that you essentially spent five years in silence
in the forests of Oregon and Northern California, you said?
Paul Bregman Washington, Colorado, like me. Yeah. Yeah. Go a little bit deeper into that for me,
if you would, about the impact that those five years had on your heart and mind. I mean, that's
such a unique experience. Such a, I mean, you're immersed in creation at a very young formative time
in your journey. Paul Bregman
Right. Well, it depends on how you want to how you want to approach these kinds of experiences,
right? Because there were lots of very rough men, groups that were not affiliated with
any spiritual tradition. Most, most tree planners that I knew that were not in our group were like,
ex-cons and drunks who would just get it together enough to stagger out and work out and make a few
bucks. Now, of course, most of this work is done by Mexicans, because Caucasian people don't want
to work that hard. So, but for me, it was an extended periods of silence, not kind of cursing,
but like, kind of reflecting. And so, I later developed the vocabulary and the understanding
and the insight as a Franciscan to really claim that experience as contemplative, as contemplative
with boots on, contemplative in the pouring rain, not contemplative as in sitting in stillness.
That's one very fine way to practice contemplative prayer. But this was contemplation in terms of
inserting my hand in Mother Earth hundreds of times a day, planting a tree, expressing a hope
for something to come back, and then kind of staggering on to the next place over rocks and
branches and through the rain and mud. So, you know, it was not, it was not, it was very painful
and difficult at heart at times, but it was also beautiful and inspiring. And, you know, most people
don't do it with a sense of interiority. Again, another term that I really found helpful from
reading Thomas Merton and kind of brought that kind of sense of interiority. It's like, oh,
you know, that's kind of like how I'm experiencing this. That's maybe different from like,
average tree planting people who are not interested in God or fate.
Pete Yeah. Can you go deeper into that word interiority and what that means to you or perhaps
what it meant to Merton?
Peter Well, it's just a sense of having an inner life with God and attending to that and caring
for that and your inner self, you know, knowing yourself, knowing that God dwells there, God
shapes us and God calls us each day to take actions and to live within the vision of God's will for
this world and to bring about the reign of God on earth. And so, this is actually something I
learned a lot through conversations with Iliadelia as well, because when we were trying to figure out
how to exactly go about writing this book, I can tell that story in a moment. The first version is
she talks a lot about the relationship between spirituality and awareness. So, she says like,
she feels that those words are kind of interchangeable in the religious setting,
that spirituality means awareness. And so, without awareness, there isn't spirituality.
And so, you know, in my own master's study, we talked about the difference between theology,
which is sort of like teaching, and then there's the experience, which is really like what
spirituality focuses on is like the inner life of people and their experience of God.
Natalya Yeah, you mentioned Care for Creation,
the first edition came out in 2007. What was that process like? I mean, you had an all-star lineup
of authors, yourself, Iliadelia, Pam Wood. What was the authorship of that book like? And what
did you learn perhaps about yourself or eco-spirituality in the process of working
with these other two authors? Paul Well, I had met Iliadelia in 2004. And in 2005, we were at a
conference, or a workshop giving a presentation on justice, peace, and care for creation to a group
of Franciscan friars. And so, that's when she proposed that we write a book together. And I
said, Oh, that sounds great. And so, she said that people like short books. True. She likes
writing popular books as well as specialized journal articles. So do I. But she said, it's
also good to have some practical application. And I said, Oh, okay. Yeah, I know a woman who
might do good at that. And so, I knew Pam Wood, who is both an art therapist and a kind of
practitioner of eco-spirituality, kind of a popular teacher working with lots of groups,
especially young adults and folks who are interested in ecological spirituality.
So first of all, Iliadelia is a brilliant woman who can write a chapter in a day. And I'm like,
I'm in awe of her because I mean, she would see what she's going to do. And then the next day,
the chapter would appear. It's like, Oh my God, I cannot write that fast. And so, I mean, I think
she can just write as fast as I can think on a good day. So the idea was, I wrote the chapters on
the environmental studies, environmental reality, trying to make an interpretation of that to kind
of cue up Iliadelia writing the chapters on the Franciscan intellectual tradition. And so, she did
the theologizing based on this. And then Pam Wood would write the chapters 369, kind of in dialogue
with me about how to create activities that would drive this deeper into a person's awareness and
build communities of support, because we need communities to foster hope and a sense of being
able to do this together. So it took a little while to figure out how to do that work kind of together.
Because, yeah, you just have to figure out how to have a conversation that makes sense. But you can
kind of see actually, there's a kind of a Franciscan logic to the organization of the book,
which distinguishes it from other books, frankly, in this field, because it starts inductively,
experimentally, experientially, it starts with evidence, like what is happening? And then what
is it? Does it mean? Those were the chapters that Iliadelia wrote. And then there's like the
Iliadelia wrote. And then there's like, what shall we do? Or you could say it's like see judge act.
But even so, most books aren't written that way. We've still got this bias towards starting,
you know, with abstract principles and working it out. And that's not really a Franciscan approach.
That's like a top down, deductive approach. That's one way to do theology. But it's only one way.
Lots of people who are resisting Franciscan approaches or the Pope Francis, as well, we
prefer the start with what is. And you could say we have a bias towards a contemplative
point of departure. And then but there are lots of voices in the church that think that's a
terrible idea. And so but that's part of the appeal of the book. And so I was very pleased
that how many people read it. I was very pleased with how that it kind of works in harmony, these
different components work in harmony. I think that Pam and Iliadelia have done at least a couple of
workshops or conferences. Iliadelia is like, you know, she draws a big crowd. I've done a few things
with Pam, but not lately. And so but there, there, I've used the book a lot in classes,
do people really like it? You can learn about eco spirituality and Franciscan spirituality at
the same time. That's one of the reasons why it's been so valuable. And so yeah, I think we're all
kind of we're all kind of proud of being able to see the book come along. And as I write in in the
expanded edition, it's like, well, I figured when Loud Out to Sea came out, that was it.
You know, because that was going to people going to read that instead of this book. But it turns
other people actually want a book that sort of unpack some of the ideas of Loud Out to Sea and
makes it more accessible. And here again, where I think what Pam did is so focused on this kind of
how to take these ideas and do something with your body. Again, an incarnational approach,
but it's not just like reading about an incarnational approach. It's about do these
things. So then you have a sense of like this completion of it fitting the pieces fitting
together. Yeah, I wanted to ask you about Loud Out to Sea and how you wove that into the expanded
edition. You wrote in the preface about how you spent a lot of time contemplating Loud Out to Sea
in 2017 while in Greccio. What impact did that encyclical have on your life and your work?
And what opened up for you during that time in Greccio?
Well, so there had been rumors about Loud Out to Sea as an environmental encyclical when it first
from the beginning of Pope Francis's pontificate. And so at one point I got a Skype call, yes,
back when we used to use Skype from a Franciscan friend of mine who was in Rome, and he had heard
a story of there being a general audience between the leadership of the Franciscan order with the
Pope and presumably Cardinal Turkson and those who were involved in writing Loud Out to Sea.
And the Pope asked if there were any Franciscans who had written about this and our
minister general said, oh yes, Keith Warner, you should get some of his things. So I had heard,
he told me this friend of mine told me that this had happened to the PayPal audience like,
Oh, really? That sounds like no big deal. I read it from cover to cover right there. It's like,
oh, I didn't make the footnotes. Now in reality, you know, this book here
is quoted. This is a book about Francis of Assisi early documents. So this book is quoted
properly. And clearly the people who wrote the encyclical knew or I'm sure drafted it before
Pope Francis wrote it. They knew this well. Fun fact, Peter Cardinal Turkson, who was the
head of the die castry for integral human development, did an extra theology graduate degree
at a conventional seminary in upstate New York. So he got exposed to the Franciscan tradition,
even though he was a diocesan priest originally from Ghana. So yeah, sure. I was on my 25th
anniversary in Greccio in in in in France, Italy in 2017, but perhaps more importantly, I read
loud out to see, I mean, I just carried it in my pack everywhere I went. And I,
I read it dozens of times. And so I would, I would teach from it in every class.
But, you know, so I was there on kind of on the side of the cliff, looking out of the Rieti Valley.
And, and I would say that it's, it's, it's a beautiful location. This is of course, where
Francis had his had his experiences of praying the creche and kind of really founding the, the, the
the process of Franciscan devotion to the Nativity. Or that's where the record shows
that this place, Francis kind of performed the the celebration of the Nativity. And again,
brought his heart and his whole being into the kind of worship and praise and gratitude for this
event. And then so they built this friary around it. And it's a it's a kind of a quiet contemplative
place, like a little retreat house. It receives lots of pilgrims and they really like the,
their Nativity, see it, it's there. But there's this little catwalk that wrapped around the back
of the friary that you could only get to through the, through the cloister. And so I was walking
back there and reading passages from loud out to see and praying and looking at the valley of
considerable beauty. And I thought, and I, it came to me like the balance of my religious life
is to translate loud out to see from text into life. And so that's what I do. That is kind of
like a call within a call or a clarification. And I, you know, I would just say that it's not,
you know, anybody who knew me didn't exactly fall out of their chair when they heard this,
because it was within the expected parameters of someone who has this unusual religious vocation
as such as it is. But it's also the, the, the, you know, it kind of gives me more focus. So if
people ask me to do anything at all to do with loud out to see, I say yes, and then figure it out.
And, and then if people ask me to do general other things that I'm like, well, I don't know,
maybe if I can find a way to work it in, I'm already kind of busy. But I would say also now
more recently, you know, that was, you know, it was almost 10 years ago. That was seven years ago,
but I would just say more recently, it's like, well, Pope Francis is coming up with so many
different ideas now. It's sort of like synodality for Teletutti. I mean, a lot of most trans-Siscan
friars are really all in on the agenda of Pope Francis and his efforts at renewal and really
bringing, fostering conversion in the world. And, and, and so it, it doesn't exactly this experience
of mine and Gretchen doesn't exactly stand apart from other aspects of my sense of calling and
today, but it, it was, it, it does sort of, it did sort of like, was sort of like one of those
experiences where you're like, ping, kind of like, Oh, a lot of things kind of aligned in, and you
almost kind of hear it. You don't know, I didn't hear a voice, but it was like, it was sort of
like an awareness. Back to awareness. Yeah. Back to awareness. Yeah. I'd like to get into,
some of the practical implications of Laudato Si in this expanded edition of care for creation. But
the first, I just wanted to ask you, what's it like for you today to reflect on your journey?
I mean, you took us through being this 18 year old kid who goes off of this group and, you know,
is immersed in creation through these forests in the Northwestern United States. And then
here you are in Greccio in 2017, celebrating your 25 year anniversary in religious life
as a Franciscan friar. I mean, what an incredible journey you've had with creation as your guide.
Uh, yeah. I mean, I, I mean, it's, it's, um, um, I don't know what, how to comment on that question.
I would just say that it just, it just seems normal for me. Uh, I would say it doesn't seem
to be normal for too many other people. And that, that gives me kind of like a degree of sadness
that it seems sort of, that I seem so exotic to many people. Why does it give you sadness?
Well, just because I think that the message, especially in Laudato Si is like, this is for
everybody. Um, and you know, Laudato Si is not some little niche agenda. It's like a whole program for
renewing, uh, ecologically conscious Catholicism in the global church today. And you know,
the, in the, if I look at the U S church and the, the, the predominant direction that its leaders
are taking, it's like, it's turning its back on Laudato Si. It's like, I've done a lot of travel
as a result of my research and work with students, um, uh, various countries, lots of poor countries.
And, uh, everybody knows the climate is, um, is being seriously disrupted and it's having
serious long-term impacts on, uh, people, especially poor people, especially farmers.
And there isn't any discussion over whether or not climate is happening or whether it's some kind of
hoax. Like there's only one country where this is really happening. And so this is where, uh, you
know, I find the kind of like the lack of a willingness to speak the truth, um, within our
church to be sad, tragic, lost opportunity. And, you know, there's just so many other concerns seem
to be filling, uh, that up. Um, and I'm also just conscious of last year, Pope Francis wrote Laudato
Si, which was, really didn't add too much to the teachings of Laudato Si, but again, read the footnotes.
Here's the scholar in me. Like he cited the U S bishops very early on saying what was called for.
And then at the end, he said, you know, we can do this as long as we repent from like
U S style lifestyles and degrees of consumption.
And those were like, you know, footnotes are political. And so those, those were messages
that were not like direct, but if you, if you want to get, if you want to understand what the
Pope is thinking about, he's like saying the America, you need to lead here. And so right now
it seems like we're, we're gearing up to lead in reverse. Uh, so, you know, this is like, we're,
we are headed on the wrong path in this country, uh, according to the moral teachings of
Pope Francis. Um, and, and, uh, what's called for is repentance and conversion.
Um, and, um, it, I, I happily and joyfully join with any one in the church who
recognizes the need for that conversion.
But that's not, this is not a concern of many, many people in America. So then we have to really
ask, why is that? You know, this is like, what's the signs of the times? What, because like,
we've done lots of really good things in this country, environmentally, many, many good things
at different times. And then we kind of backslide and we appear to be like, not a backslide, but a
back run. Um, and so what is it, what is the spiritual cause of this? I think we have to be very,
we have to be very honest about this and confront kind of the greed, the selfishness
and the individualism and the consumerism. These are major factors that are not just bad for our
souls. They are affecting our poor brothers and sisters and our mother earth. And so this is where
this message of conversion is really so important. And it's really like, we have to take it seriously.
We have to act on it. And that's what's called for in that's not being, that's called for by
Francis, by Laudato Si, by Franciscans around the world, you know, clear on this,
but it's not a message that people want to hear or act on.
Yeah. Why, why is that? Do you think?
Well greed, selfishness, individualism, these blind us to others. And that's, you know,
you know, from Pope Francis introduced this concept of integral ecology, which is like
this holistic understanding of human beings in relationship to God, each other and creation
and kind of growing in our awareness, our spiritual awareness of, of the need for balanced and healthy
give and take relationships. It doesn't mean we can't cut down a tree, but we shouldn't remove
entire forests. It doesn't mean that we have to go back to living in caves, but if we adopted a
lifestyle that was moderate, sober, as Pope Francis said, simple and sober, we would,
we would work our way out of this mess, but we're too addicted to our stuff, to our power,
to our ability to decide for ourselves. And we're too indifferent to the suffering that this causes,
not usually directly. So Americans don't go around like attacking others, but by our consumption
and our greed and our indifference, this results in grave harms around the world. We're no,
we historically have been into most greenhouse gases. This isn't, this is unambiguous. Sure,
China is emitting more now, but that's a recent development. It's, we, we bear the historical
responsibility to lead this ecological conversion away from emitting greenhouse gases and towards
protected creation. But we are, you know, we're like, we're like Jonah. God called him to Nineveh
and Babylon, and instead he got on a boat and head for Spain. We're just not, we're, we're heading
in the wrong direction. So this is, this is a source of deep sadness and really kind of sadness
and kind of mourning that we so indifferent to the call of creation to us to live in harmony with
God and each other, the call of God, of course, coming through the book of nature. These are ancient,
ancient Christian traditions and not only Franciscan ones. Maybe they're prominent in it,
more prompt, relatively more prominent in the Franciscan world today, but these are ancient
practices, ancient, ancient wisdom perspectives of our church and they are not popular today.
Nat, yeah. Yeah. I'm curious to get your thoughts on this. One of my favorite quotes from Thomas
Merton, he, he, he was writing, he says, he says something along the lines of, for many, and he's
talking about Americans and he says something along the lines of, for many, a tree has no reality
until they cut it down. It's something along those, and I think he's getting at this need in the
American mindset, at least the way I interpret it, this need in the American mindset to commodify
things, to, and he plays a lot with this, like, Hey, we'll, we'll plan a tree in the city, but we
have to dedicate it to the mayor. You know, like there always has to be some kind of meaning
attached, but in Franciscan spirituality and in contemplative spirituality, a lot of it comes down
to relationality. You know, like this tree isn't something for me to commodify, something for me
to give it meaning because I've cut it down now. This tree speaks to me. It speaks truth to me
about who God is and how we are to renew the earth and be converted in the process. What are
your thoughts on that? 2025 is both the 10th anniversary of Laudato Si, but it's also the
800th anniversary of the Canticle of the Creatures. And so of course, many of the listeners to this
podcast would be familiar with the Canticle and probably singing it in church and familiar with
many of its lines. And certainly it is a beautiful and inspirational song. And it, it, it gives voice
to a Franciscan care for creation in a most beautiful way. But this is another text that's
really worth kind of studying and reflecting upon. I believe it's Ilya, but I'm not sure. I, to be
honest, I don't remember the source, but I think Ilya refers to it as a Christic hymn, meaning a hymn
that references Christ. And then she explains it. I'm not sure it's in this book, but I'm pretty
sure she's talked about it in this way. And so, so I think that is really like, it is a, other people
say that it is, it is a, it is a metaphysical statement. Okay, there's a $20 word. So it's sort
of like it describing reality that Francis perceived, not using advanced philosophical
technical language, but as a song from the heart, emerging from his contemplative love of creation
and his experience of God in creation. It's also, for example, the first song in modern Italian.
And so it's not exactly that. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's unusual as reverting to the,
the encyclical. The encyclical is from this kind of middle aged medieval Umbrian. It's not from
Latin. Almost every other encyclical I know, it has the first words are from the Latin and this one
is from medieval Umbrian. And so that's so interesting that the Pope decided to kind of deviate
as it were from, from tradition in order to embrace this and embrace it as a wisdom text. So,
so there, you know, again, I'm thinking about this, this, this relational, relationality
that's in the canticle. It's really, I think helpful for understanding Francis who used the
term brother hundreds of times. And then that sort of gives us the, gives me the, the, the,
the perspective and I hope you and your listeners as well, it's all about family. And family is the
root metaphor here for understanding Francis's relationship to other people and to earth and to
creation and to God. So it's all about always being in relationship and thinking about others,
not in this sort of like kind of doormat, milk toast. I don't have any, I don't belong here,
not in that kind of sense, but as a part of the family around the celebratory table or on the
outing together or, you know, holding hands, that's this, that those are the kind of images that I
think are suggested by this, both emerging from Francis's own insight, but also from,
it speaks to us today and it's available to us today if we choose to lean into this way of living,
this way of seeing, right? Contemplative is kind of an open-eyed prayer. The sense, this ability to,
this ability to, to lean into this gives, allows us to live this way as a, as a, as a, as a kind of
an expression of our love for Christ in the contemporary setting. So there's a famous scholar
named Paul Recur who talks about texts that have a surplus of meaning. And here we might think of
them as like fountains overflowing. And, you know, the, Francis didn't just sit down and scribble off
the canticle like some kind of bubblegum pop song, you know, it's not superficial. It's simple,
but he wrote it as an expression of an inner reality that was cultivated by 20 years of
contemplation, especially in nature. He wrote it as he was mostly blind in a hut outside of
Sant'Agnano in the midst of great suffering. So to, that puts a different context on this. This is
not like the film Brothers, Sons, Sister Moon, where Francis is dancing through the poppy fields
and everything's great. No, he's, he felt alienated from his, from the brotherhood he'd founded and he
was laying there in agony, mostly blind. So yeah, so there's great pain that is a part of the
Franciscan story about Francis's story and about the Franciscans today, even as we gaze upon this
kind of great tragedy of our indifference to creation, our selfishness and consumerism at
the expense of it, our hardheartedness towards the very clear suffering of creatures that are being
pushed to irreversible extinction and the suffering of the poor. So this is the conversion that
Loud Out to Sea calls us to. Yeah, I was wondering, you mentioned back when you were 18
coming out of the woods one day and you were just like, why does no one care? And that has
been a theme throughout this conversation, that sadness that has accompanied you as you've embarked
on this work. What do you do about that? How do you, I don't want to say combat the sadness,
but how, how do you work through it and continue to do the incredible work that you're doing,
even though it seems like it's been there every step of the way for you in this fight?
Well, I think that wrestling with sadness is a part of a contemplative living.
I think a lot of people will distract stuff, shoot up or drink to avoid feeling it. And that's not
something that's, but those aren't really contemplative. Embracing a contemplative life of prayer means
taking a long loving look at the really real and not shying away from it and embracing that reality
of taking in to a degree the suffering and the injustice that we are witness to. And that's,
I think what we observe in Francis. And I think that's really what the Franciscan vocation
includes that to go deeper, right? To go deeper than, you know, bird baths and, you know, and
operational rice bowl, which are fine. But those are really like, not that that's swimming in the
kiddie pool. I mean, really we're calling, we're calling for radical conversion of life. That's
what the witness of St. Francis is. And Pope Francis is calling for the ecological conversion
of humanity. I mean, echoing what Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI said, and we do not want to hear it.
Yeah. Yeah. And that contemplative gaze that you're talking about
that results in taking on the suffering of the world and being open to receiving
the pain of our fellow family, our brothers and sisters. I mean,
it's hard to sell. It's hard to sell. Yeah. Like it take on a contemplative gaze and confront
sadness. However, I'm curious what you think about this in that we awaken to the family that's all
around us and the suffering that's around us. And in this sense, there's a freedom there because
we're not isolated anymore. Am I on track there? Am I following? Yes, absolutely. So the sadness,
I mean, the sense of loss, the sense of outrage in the injustice and the kind of the,
and being a witness to self-destruction is a part of the consequence of living a contemplative life.
But it's never isolated from the joy, the sense of communio, the sense of accompaniment, the sense
of being touched by God, the sense of God is in this even as humans continue to make a mess of
things, even in the midst of tragedies and injustices, God is still present in some way.
And that's part of what needs to be a Franciscan of any kind today, whether vowed or lay,
just inspired by, I mean, it needs to be a walking in this contemplative, in a contemplative way
through life, love and sorrow going together. And so that this is not, it's never all one or the other,
but there's no real life apart from bearing witness to suffering. And one is never left
only with suffering if one is truly contemplative. Yeah, that's beautiful. And I liked how in the
expanded edition of Care for Creation, you walked readers through a number of exercises that invite
contemplation, that invite this gaze upon the real to see what is and therefore take it in and see
what the response might be. So can you talk a little bit about this expanded edition, how it came
about? And I know that in this work that you've been doing for so many years, that there is that
sadness that accompanies this work like we've talked about. However, there's so much beauty in
this expanded edition too. And I sense that there's a lot of hope in there for the future as we move
into the 800 year anniversary of the Canical, the 10 year anniversary of Laudato Si. I mean,
there, however subtle it may be, you are a part of a movement again, like you were when you were 18.
Right. So I'm very grateful to Dr. Darlene Prides, a colleague of mine here at the
Franciscan School of Theology and acquisitions editor or something like that at Franciscan Media.
So she suggested this and I said, sure. And part of it is because I've been given so many workshops
and retreats and conferences and talks forever about doing something new in light of revising
this in light of Laudato Si. So the text that care for creation itself is largely unchanged.
A few little things were just kind of brought up to current, but really the new front material is
about framing that text in light of what Laudato Si is doing in the church in the world. And now
it's a Franciscan wisdom text, Laudato Si is, and then that allows people to enter into the original
kind of 12 chapters. And then there's an expanded toolbox at the end, which was written by Pam and
myself, Pam Wooden. And I wrote this as a, as we describe it as a toolkit for reflective practitioners,
meaning these, this is for people who want to lead others who may not want to read a book,
because a lot of people don't want to read books. But that doesn't mean that the impact of the
message of care for creation is limited to the readers. It's an opportunity to take this into
classrooms, into Sunday schools, into community groups, into parishes, into any number of
institutional settings and group settings, and to be able to give people an experience
that touches on this. So one of them is about taking an inventory of the waste that comes from
our home. It doesn't sound attractive, but it's a very compelling thing. Another activity is looking
at the nature of how we are called to participate in helping others undergo a conversion process,
ourselves and others together. And then the last is like a retreat kit for helping with leading
others through a process of prayerfully reading passages of Laudato Si and reflecting upon
these key words in the Franciscan tradition of praise and love, beauty, for example, as really
key words for understanding Franciscan spirituality that are also revealed not just in texts about
St. Francis, but in Laudato Si. And so with all of these things, we're hoping that this
expanded edition will help people to be able to take the kind of message of what we crafted some
18 years ago and see it still is valuable. And by expanding it, it will be able to reach
more audiences and to continue to carry forward the message of hope and the blessings of undergoing
ecological conversion that our father Francis and the message of the encyclical hold out for us.
Pete Yeah, my final question is, you know, for some people listening, maybe they've never heard
the term Franciscan eco-spirituality or integral ecology. I mean, what would, besides buying the
book, which I would recommend, but what would be some, you know, next steps or some recommendations
you may give to listeners about, hey, I want to join this movement. I want to enter into this
conversion experience and finally do something about this.
Mark Well, so there's a lot of resources that are in the book that are identified as kind of next
steps. One of them would be to watch the movie that you can find on YouTube called The Letter.
So that helps kind of personalize Laudato Si. I would say that finding networks, if you're
Catholic, finding networks in the country or in your diocese of other people that are engaged in
this. My diocese of San Diego is very active, but we have a very Laudato Si oriented cardinal here.
Franciscan Action Network is a very good organization also that can get you started
and get you connected with other like-minded people. It's really important to overcome the
sense of sadness and loss by joining in community. That's another component of Franciscan approach
here is that we cannot do this work alone. It is not work to be done alone. And if you try to do
it alone, you will likely fail because it's meant to be a collective journey. And so with that,
I wish everyone who's listening a blessing and a chance to read this book and to act on this
and to be able to put Laudato Si into practice in their own lives as well.
Huge thanks to our sponsor, The Franciscan School of Theology, and to Brother Keith for joining us
on Off the Page. Thank you as always to you for tuning in and supporting this podcast. If you
enjoyed the episode, please consider leaving a review or sharing it with your family or friends.
And thank you as well to Cyprian Concilio for providing the music for this episode. I encourage
you to check them out on Spotify, iTunes, or wherever you listen to your music. This is Stephen
Copeland signing off. Peace and all good. I will lead you into the desert with me and tenderly