1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:18,000 Welcome to Off the Page. I'm Stephen Copeland. In the recent United States presidential election, 2 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:23,760 neither of the two major political parties made environment or climate change a focus 3 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:30,160 in their campaigns. The unfortunate truth, one could conclude, is that environmental concerns do 4 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:37,760 not motivate the masses to vote. It is this kind of apathy and disconnect from nature that Franciscan 5 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:44,880 friar, author, and professor Keith Douglas Warner has spent much of his career addressing. Could it 6 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:52,560 be that beneath our apathy and disconnect is a spiritual problem? How can Franciscan eco-spirituality 7 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:59,440 help all people to recover a relationship with creation that has been lost? It is my pleasure 8 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:06,160 to share with you this interview with Keith Douglas Warner. Brother Keith, OFM, is associate 9 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:11,760 professor of ethics and spirituality at the Franciscan School of Theology in San Diego. 10 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:18,720 He is a practical social ethicist in the Franciscan tradition and teaches eco-spirituality, 11 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:25,200 social entrepreneurship, and moral theology. In 2007, he helped author the award-winning Care 12 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:32,560 for Creation, a Franciscan spirituality of the earth, with Elia Delio, OSF, and Pamela Wood. 13 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:38,320 He recently worked to write an expanded edition of Care for Creation, which will be released in 14 00:01:38,320 --> 00:01:45,120 December 2024. The expanded edition includes extensive front and back matter, which delve 15 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:53,200 into Pope Francis' 2015 encyclical, Laudato Si, on care for our common home. I'm honored to share 16 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:59,120 this interview with you as we near the 10th anniversary of Laudato Si and the 800-year 17 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:05,760 anniversary of St. Francis of Assisi's poem, Canticle of the Creatures. You can order the 18 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:13,120 expanded edition of Care for Creation by visiting shop.franciscanmedia.org. I hope you enjoy this 19 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:18,560 interview with Keith Douglas Warner, but first a message from our sponsor. 20 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:26,720 Earning a Master of Theological Studies with the Franciscan Theology lens is now possible 21 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:32,800 anywhere in the world. The Master's program at the Franciscan School of Theology offers a blend 22 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:39,360 of academic engagement and spiritual reflection. You can learn at your own pace while connecting 23 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:44,080 with fellow students and instructors in a respectful and down-to-earth environment. 24 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:51,040 Embark on a 24-month mutually transformative journey with the world-renowned faculty and 25 00:02:51,040 --> 00:03:00,080 instructors from FST. The Master of Theological Studies, Franciscan Theology, is 100% online. 26 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:07,680 You can complete it in 24 months and it is fully accredited. I actually just completed this program 27 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:16,560 and it's amazing. So I highly recommend it. To learn more, you can visit the theologicalstudies.sandiego.edu. 28 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:21,920 Again, that's the theologicalstudies.sandiego.edu. 29 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,720 Keith Douglas Warner, thank you for joining the Off the Page podcast. 30 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:34,960 Glad to be with you, Stephen. Can you talk about your own journey into this field of 31 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:40,880 eco-spirituality? I mean, that is a field that maybe some people have not heard of before. 32 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:50,640 Good. Yes, happy to do so. Eco-spirituality really is an experience of God and faith and prayer 33 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:56,320 in relationship to nature and how one lives one's life. And so for me, this really began 34 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:03,120 as a result of some completely unexpected events in my life. When I was 18, 35 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:10,480 I was going to school at University of California, Davis, and I met this very inspirational 36 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:21,120 ecumenical faith community of young adults who were living very strong biblical Christian ideals. 37 00:04:21,840 --> 00:04:27,280 You could also call it a Jesus Freak Hippie Commune. And so I dropped out of school. I was 38 00:04:27,280 --> 00:04:32,560 so inspired by them. It wasn't because I wasn't doing well academically, but it just seemed like 39 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:36,400 it just seemed like what they were, how they were living and what they were doing in their life 40 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:43,120 project was so much more compelling than going to school. And so we moved to rural Oregon. 41 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:48,960 We sponsored migrants and refugees. We had a Christian rock and roll band. We showed the film 42 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:55,280 Brother Son, Sister Moon. This was a late 70s. So even though that movie is seems a little like a 43 00:04:55,280 --> 00:05:00,080 period piece now, it was very inspirational to me at the time. And it's definitely worth watching. 44 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:05,120 But we had a reforestation co-op and that's how we made our money. And so for me, this was this 45 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:15,680 dramatic immersion into the forests of Oregon, Washington, Northern California, Colorado, 46 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:23,360 Wyoming, and Montana. And so wherever they would go through and cut down trees and log them and 47 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:29,040 create these clear cuts, which really are ugly and they're highly problematic from an 48 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:33,200 ecological perspective, we would go in and plant little baby trees. And so these trees would be 49 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:40,960 like 18 inches tall, maybe. And we would plant 500, a thousand, 1500, even 2000 a day. And so 50 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:48,400 this was a very heavy work, but it was also done under the open sky. And in Oregon, that meant 51 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:55,280 pouring rain most of the time. So we would work out in the elements and it was brutally hard work, 52 00:05:55,280 --> 00:06:01,520 but I discovered a beauty about creation there that I had as a result of really being surrounded 53 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:08,960 by creation, even creation that had been suffering from human abuse, there was still this majesty 54 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:15,920 about these ancient forests and the fact that we would participate in some small way in trying to 55 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:22,640 bring back life in these places that had been devastated for economic exploitation reasons. 56 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:29,360 And so this really was an experience of being largely in silence in nature for most of the year 57 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:37,600 for five years. It left a profound impact on me. It taught me things about the material nature of 58 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:42,880 life and the interdependence of life and the relationship between prayer and beauty and 59 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:50,960 healing and God's awesome creative power. And so I began to ask questions, why did no one seem to be 60 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:56,720 paying attention to our environmental problems when it seemed like this was like a natural kind 61 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:01,680 of visceral experience. And that wasn't the only one, maybe it wasn't something people would talk 62 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:07,680 about in church. It wasn't back in the 80s, but it was certainly something that was consistent with 63 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:12,400 the Pope with St. Francis's experience. And I thought, wow, how awesome is this? What? Here's 64 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:23,280 an example. And so this was left a profound kind of imprint on my spiritual awareness and thinking 65 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:28,960 of this also in terms of an obligation to act, obligation to act out of love and gratitude. 66 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:36,560 And even though I, well, at the time wasn't really fully clear on the limitations of a lot 67 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:42,560 of environmental discourse led by NGOs and advocacy organizations, I still felt like this is 68 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:50,480 something that's morally and religiously compelling. So when the first, that community fell apart, 69 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:55,200 I looked around and I said, well, I think I want to pursue this in a more intentional sort of way. 70 00:07:55,200 --> 00:08:01,920 So that's when I decided, I discerned the call to become a Franciscan friar. So I did that actually. 71 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:06,720 I began the process. I wasn't Catholic, so I went through an RCIA process and then 72 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:12,640 joined the Franciscans back here in the West coast. And so I've been a friar ever since. 73 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:17,920 And my vocation director, who was a very strong influence in my life, he also had a lot of 74 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:25,200 environmental background, horticulturalist, did graduate studies in theology, wrote his master's 75 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:32,000 thesis in theology on liberation theology and the destruction of the Amazon rainforest. 76 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:38,720 So he said, well, it's really great that you're interested in this integration, 77 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:44,560 but I need to tell you before you sign up, there's not a lot of established pathways in 78 00:08:44,560 --> 00:08:48,800 Franciscan religious life for it. There's sort of like a dawning awareness that we need to be 79 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:54,000 doing some of this, but we don't know how. So I started to think about this, and I thought, 80 00:08:54,000 --> 00:09:00,400 well, so in Spanish, there's a nice little saying, el camino se hace por caminar, 81 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:07,360 the road is made by walking. And so that's been a part of my life, is trying to show people, 82 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:12,160 including my own Franciscan brothers, that it's possible and that God desires that there be an 83 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:17,360 integration between our spiritual life and our spiritual practices and our relationship with God 84 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:27,040 and our understanding of ourself and responsible ecological awareness and action. So that's been a 85 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:32,640 long-term dimension of my vocational journey as a Franciscan these 30 something odd years. 86 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:38,640 I thought that becoming a Franciscan was enough to show that off, but apparently 87 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:46,560 that wasn't what my provincial at the time thought. So he encouraged me to pursue higher 88 00:09:46,560 --> 00:09:51,120 studies. So I went to the University of California, Santa Cruz for a doctorate in 89 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:56,800 environmental studies. And so I did spend five years writing about sustainable agriculture and 90 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:02,880 social networks. It was very good. And I got a credential as a result of that. And then that 91 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:09,680 really allowed me to teach, but also frankly, even though it sometimes feels a little kind of like 92 00:10:09,680 --> 00:10:17,840 a funny juggle, the reality is, people pay more attention to me as a Franciscan with a doctorate 93 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:24,560 than just a kind of a crazy Franciscan who has crazy ideas. And that seems to be the way the world 94 00:10:24,560 --> 00:10:30,000 works for better or worse. It's given me actually access to a lot more resources to be able to help 95 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:36,240 students and organizations to engage in this kind of work. So I've taught a lot of environmental 96 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:42,560 ethics, Franciscan spirituality. I've worked a lot on sustainable development projects using 97 00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:50,640 social enterprise techniques and strategies. And so I've also written an awful lot about this 98 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:56,160 in the English speaking Franciscan world. And so now I teach about it and I'm active in the 99 00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:02,640 Diocese of San Diego here, which is led by Cardinal McElroy, who's a very firm supporter of Loud Out to 100 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:10,800 C and his message. So that's a little bit about my own work, both kind of the practitioner side of 101 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:15,840 things, working with people in communities, working at teaching, helping students to do this, 102 00:11:16,560 --> 00:11:21,760 trying to influence the Friars and other Franciscan institutions to incorporate more of this kind of 103 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:29,040 perspective and thinking, and then also writing about this for audiences that are both specialized 104 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:41,600 in general. Yeah, I have so many questions. Could we go back to when you were 18 and you find this 105 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:47,600 hippie Jesus Movement group? I think that's the way you described it. What was your family, 106 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:53,280 what were your friends reactions when you went away with this group into the forests? 107 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:58,800 Well, Stephen, this was a long time ago now. And even when I tell my students about this, 108 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,920 they get intrigued and want to know if that's something that's available to them. And I was 109 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:07,280 like, no, the 70s are over. So it's hard. We're bringing it back. We're bringing it back. 110 00:12:08,560 --> 00:12:17,440 So it seems very hard to capture it here in 2024 on the kind of the aftermath of the recent election, 111 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:24,400 the direction of American society. It just seems very incompatible with our ideals back then here, 112 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:29,680 especially on the left coast, where we were really looking at ecological consciousness. It was just 113 00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:37,280 part of how large sectors of society were beginning to think and still do. But in terms of 114 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:42,080 putting myself back in this movement, well, like I said, this is a long time ago, and it wasn't very 115 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:50,480 far removed from the Jonestown mass suicide event by a cult in South America. So a lot of people, 116 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,760 including my parents, were definitely afraid that I was joining a similar group. 117 00:12:55,040 --> 00:13:02,560 But it was really a question of ideals and how to fulfill one's ideals and how we wanted to 118 00:13:02,560 --> 00:13:08,720 make the world a better place and be more faithful people than taking a very strong 119 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:17,920 stance towards simple living, towards outreach and proclaiming good news to others. 120 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:22,720 And this was really kind of in the same kind of era. We were very strongly influenced by 121 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:28,400 Jim Wallis and Sojourners. We were strongly influenced by the L'Arche Community Movement, 122 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:35,360 by Joan Chidister and her work, by Richard Rohr. So these were all kind of people that we thought 123 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,520 about as sort of like good teachers that we were trying to figure out how to translate that into 124 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:43,760 how we would actually live together. And they were about, at the height, there were about 50 of us, 125 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:49,760 men, women, singles, families. It was very interesting, but it was a very long time ago now. 126 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,160 Yeah, you said you didn't grow up Catholic, correct? 127 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:54,960 Right. 128 00:13:54,960 --> 00:14:00,960 So how did you learn about St. Francis and this Franciscan way of life? 129 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:06,480 Oh, well, I first heard about it through Brother, Son, Sister Moon, because this OOP was going around 130 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:11,680 showing it as a movie, as a kind of a form of outreach and discipleship, evangelization. 131 00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:18,960 So I was very moved by that. Of course, I had to sort of like kind of be deprogrammed by some of 132 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:25,440 the not quite so historically accurate pieces in that movie, but it still captures the spirit, 133 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:31,600 especially in light of the post Vietnam era. And so then I read Murray Bodo's The Journey 134 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:38,800 and the Dream. I practically memorized it. And then I was very surprised in my later years with 135 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:44,720 that group when I discovered that Franciscan still existed. It's like, really? Oh, how come I didn't 136 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:53,360 know about this? And then when that my old group fell apart, then I was like, oh, I'm going to 137 00:14:53,360 --> 00:15:01,600 be a Franciscan. Then this is what that was the next logical move. And so, yeah, I would say that, 138 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:06,800 you know, there are lots of different avenues into the Franciscans. And some people are very 139 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:10,640 Catholic and they want to become priests and they like St. Francis and they kind of come in one door. 140 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:15,680 But me, I was sort of like really committed to a Franciscan way of living in the contemporary 141 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:21,680 world. And so that's sort of like, pointed me towards this business of teaching and learning 142 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:28,800 and formation and education and outreach, both in the Franciscan spirit, spiritual tradition 143 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:34,640 of today, and also for fostering kind of a more just, humane and sustainable world. 144 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:41,840 Nat Fertig Yeah, yeah, you mentioned that you essentially spent five years in silence 145 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,440 in the forests of Oregon and Northern California, you said? 146 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:52,480 Paul Bregman Washington, Colorado, like me. Yeah. Yeah. Go a little bit deeper into that for me, 147 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:58,960 if you would, about the impact that those five years had on your heart and mind. I mean, that's 148 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:07,440 such a unique experience. Such a, I mean, you're immersed in creation at a very young formative time 149 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,600 in your journey. Paul Bregman 150 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:15,040 Right. Well, it depends on how you want to how you want to approach these kinds of experiences, 151 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:20,480 right? Because there were lots of very rough men, groups that were not affiliated with 152 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:31,520 any spiritual tradition. Most, most tree planners that I knew that were not in our group were like, 153 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:38,960 ex-cons and drunks who would just get it together enough to stagger out and work out and make a few 154 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:43,840 bucks. Now, of course, most of this work is done by Mexicans, because Caucasian people don't want 155 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:49,920 to work that hard. So, but for me, it was an extended periods of silence, not kind of cursing, 156 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:56,000 but like, kind of reflecting. And so, I later developed the vocabulary and the understanding 157 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:02,000 and the insight as a Franciscan to really claim that experience as contemplative, as contemplative 158 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:09,680 with boots on, contemplative in the pouring rain, not contemplative as in sitting in stillness. 159 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:16,160 That's one very fine way to practice contemplative prayer. But this was contemplation in terms of 160 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:22,800 inserting my hand in Mother Earth hundreds of times a day, planting a tree, expressing a hope 161 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:29,040 for something to come back, and then kind of staggering on to the next place over rocks and 162 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:36,880 branches and through the rain and mud. So, you know, it was not, it was not, it was very painful 163 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:42,160 and difficult at heart at times, but it was also beautiful and inspiring. And, you know, most people 164 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:47,760 don't do it with a sense of interiority. Again, another term that I really found helpful from 165 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,840 reading Thomas Merton and kind of brought that kind of sense of interiority. It's like, oh, 166 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:56,080 you know, that's kind of like how I'm experiencing this. That's maybe different from like, 167 00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:01,360 average tree planting people who are not interested in God or fate. 168 00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:07,040 Pete Yeah. Can you go deeper into that word interiority and what that means to you or perhaps 169 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:08,800 what it meant to Merton? 170 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:14,480 Peter Well, it's just a sense of having an inner life with God and attending to that and caring 171 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:20,240 for that and your inner self, you know, knowing yourself, knowing that God dwells there, God 172 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:28,880 shapes us and God calls us each day to take actions and to live within the vision of God's will for 173 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:35,920 this world and to bring about the reign of God on earth. And so, this is actually something I 174 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:43,840 learned a lot through conversations with Iliadelia as well, because when we were trying to figure out 175 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:48,240 how to exactly go about writing this book, I can tell that story in a moment. The first version is 176 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:55,680 she talks a lot about the relationship between spirituality and awareness. So, she says like, 177 00:18:55,680 --> 00:19:03,200 she feels that those words are kind of interchangeable in the religious setting, 178 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:08,400 that spirituality means awareness. And so, without awareness, there isn't spirituality. 179 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:14,160 And so, you know, in my own master's study, we talked about the difference between theology, 180 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:21,120 which is sort of like teaching, and then there's the experience, which is really like what 181 00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:27,040 spirituality focuses on is like the inner life of people and their experience of God. 182 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,320 Natalya Yeah, you mentioned Care for Creation, 183 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:37,120 the first edition came out in 2007. What was that process like? I mean, you had an all-star lineup 184 00:19:37,120 --> 00:19:44,800 of authors, yourself, Iliadelia, Pam Wood. What was the authorship of that book like? And what 185 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:49,680 did you learn perhaps about yourself or eco-spirituality in the process of working 186 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:58,720 with these other two authors? Paul Well, I had met Iliadelia in 2004. And in 2005, we were at a 187 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:06,320 conference, or a workshop giving a presentation on justice, peace, and care for creation to a group 188 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:10,800 of Franciscan friars. And so, that's when she proposed that we write a book together. And I 189 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:17,120 said, Oh, that sounds great. And so, she said that people like short books. True. She likes 190 00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:22,720 writing popular books as well as specialized journal articles. So do I. But she said, it's 191 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:27,120 also good to have some practical application. And I said, Oh, okay. Yeah, I know a woman who 192 00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:33,760 might do good at that. And so, I knew Pam Wood, who is both an art therapist and a kind of 193 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:43,680 practitioner of eco-spirituality, kind of a popular teacher working with lots of groups, 194 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:49,360 especially young adults and folks who are interested in ecological spirituality. 195 00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:56,720 So first of all, Iliadelia is a brilliant woman who can write a chapter in a day. And I'm like, 196 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:01,120 I'm in awe of her because I mean, she would see what she's going to do. And then the next day, 197 00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:08,240 the chapter would appear. It's like, Oh my God, I cannot write that fast. And so, I mean, I think 198 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:20,400 she can just write as fast as I can think on a good day. So the idea was, I wrote the chapters on 199 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:28,480 the environmental studies, environmental reality, trying to make an interpretation of that to kind 200 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:34,320 of cue up Iliadelia writing the chapters on the Franciscan intellectual tradition. And so, she did 201 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:41,200 the theologizing based on this. And then Pam Wood would write the chapters 369, kind of in dialogue 202 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:48,320 with me about how to create activities that would drive this deeper into a person's awareness and 203 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:55,120 build communities of support, because we need communities to foster hope and a sense of being 204 00:21:55,120 --> 00:22:02,800 able to do this together. So it took a little while to figure out how to do that work kind of together. 205 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:08,960 Because, yeah, you just have to figure out how to have a conversation that makes sense. But you can 206 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:14,080 kind of see actually, there's a kind of a Franciscan logic to the organization of the book, 207 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:20,080 which distinguishes it from other books, frankly, in this field, because it starts inductively, 208 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:26,960 experimentally, experientially, it starts with evidence, like what is happening? And then what 209 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:31,120 is it? Does it mean? Those were the chapters that Iliadelia wrote. And then there's like the 210 00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:36,720 Iliadelia wrote. And then there's like, what shall we do? Or you could say it's like see judge act. 211 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:42,160 But even so, most books aren't written that way. We've still got this bias towards starting, 212 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:47,280 you know, with abstract principles and working it out. And that's not really a Franciscan approach. 213 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:52,640 That's like a top down, deductive approach. That's one way to do theology. But it's only one way. 214 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:59,680 Lots of people who are resisting Franciscan approaches or the Pope Francis, as well, we 215 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:05,040 prefer the start with what is. And you could say we have a bias towards a contemplative 216 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:10,560 point of departure. And then but there are lots of voices in the church that think that's a 217 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:16,960 terrible idea. And so but that's part of the appeal of the book. And so I was very pleased 218 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:23,600 that how many people read it. I was very pleased with how that it kind of works in harmony, these 219 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:30,480 different components work in harmony. I think that Pam and Iliadelia have done at least a couple of 220 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:36,400 workshops or conferences. Iliadelia is like, you know, she draws a big crowd. I've done a few things 221 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:44,000 with Pam, but not lately. And so but there, there, I've used the book a lot in classes, 222 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,720 do people really like it? You can learn about eco spirituality and Franciscan spirituality at 223 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:57,120 the same time. That's one of the reasons why it's been so valuable. And so yeah, I think we're all 224 00:23:57,120 --> 00:24:05,200 kind of we're all kind of proud of being able to see the book come along. And as I write in in the 225 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,280 expanded edition, it's like, well, I figured when Loud Out to Sea came out, that was it. 226 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,560 You know, because that was going to people going to read that instead of this book. But it turns 227 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:19,440 other people actually want a book that sort of unpack some of the ideas of Loud Out to Sea and 228 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:25,440 makes it more accessible. And here again, where I think what Pam did is so focused on this kind of 229 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:31,520 how to take these ideas and do something with your body. Again, an incarnational approach, 230 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,600 but it's not just like reading about an incarnational approach. It's about do these 231 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:40,480 things. So then you have a sense of like this completion of it fitting the pieces fitting 232 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:47,600 together. Yeah, I wanted to ask you about Loud Out to Sea and how you wove that into the expanded 233 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:54,560 edition. You wrote in the preface about how you spent a lot of time contemplating Loud Out to Sea 234 00:24:54,560 --> 00:25:02,000 in 2017 while in Greccio. What impact did that encyclical have on your life and your work? 235 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,280 And what opened up for you during that time in Greccio? 236 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:13,920 Well, so there had been rumors about Loud Out to Sea as an environmental encyclical when it first 237 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:21,760 from the beginning of Pope Francis's pontificate. And so at one point I got a Skype call, yes, 238 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:28,160 back when we used to use Skype from a Franciscan friend of mine who was in Rome, and he had heard 239 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:32,960 a story of there being a general audience between the leadership of the Franciscan order with the 240 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:37,760 Pope and presumably Cardinal Turkson and those who were involved in writing Loud Out to Sea. 241 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:43,120 And the Pope asked if there were any Franciscans who had written about this and our 242 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:51,680 minister general said, oh yes, Keith Warner, you should get some of his things. So I had heard, 243 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,440 he told me this friend of mine told me that this had happened to the PayPal audience like, 244 00:25:55,440 --> 00:26:03,200 Oh, really? That sounds like no big deal. I read it from cover to cover right there. It's like, 245 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:11,920 oh, I didn't make the footnotes. Now in reality, you know, this book here 246 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:20,960 is quoted. This is a book about Francis of Assisi early documents. So this book is quoted 247 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:29,440 properly. And clearly the people who wrote the encyclical knew or I'm sure drafted it before 248 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:36,640 Pope Francis wrote it. They knew this well. Fun fact, Peter Cardinal Turkson, who was the 249 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:44,160 head of the die castry for integral human development, did an extra theology graduate degree 250 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:49,840 at a conventional seminary in upstate New York. So he got exposed to the Franciscan tradition, 251 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:57,840 even though he was a diocesan priest originally from Ghana. So yeah, sure. I was on my 25th 252 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:04,560 anniversary in Greccio in in in in France, Italy in 2017, but perhaps more importantly, I read 253 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,000 loud out to see, I mean, I just carried it in my pack everywhere I went. And I, 254 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:14,800 I read it dozens of times. And so I would, I would teach from it in every class. 255 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:22,000 But, you know, so I was there on kind of on the side of the cliff, looking out of the Rieti Valley. 256 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:31,760 And, and I would say that it's, it's, it's a beautiful location. This is of course, where 257 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:42,960 Francis had his had his experiences of praying the creche and kind of really founding the, the, the 258 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:49,520 the process of Franciscan devotion to the Nativity. Or that's where the record shows 259 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:57,200 that this place, Francis kind of performed the the celebration of the Nativity. And again, 260 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:03,360 brought his heart and his whole being into the kind of worship and praise and gratitude for this 261 00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:10,560 event. And then so they built this friary around it. And it's a it's a kind of a quiet contemplative 262 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,160 place, like a little retreat house. It receives lots of pilgrims and they really like the, 263 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:21,120 their Nativity, see it, it's there. But there's this little catwalk that wrapped around the back 264 00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:25,920 of the friary that you could only get to through the, through the cloister. And so I was walking 265 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:32,400 back there and reading passages from loud out to see and praying and looking at the valley of 266 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:37,120 considerable beauty. And I thought, and I, it came to me like the balance of my religious life 267 00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:44,000 is to translate loud out to see from text into life. And so that's what I do. That is kind of 268 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:49,520 like a call within a call or a clarification. And I, you know, I would just say that it's not, 269 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:55,040 you know, anybody who knew me didn't exactly fall out of their chair when they heard this, 270 00:28:55,040 --> 00:29:02,480 because it was within the expected parameters of someone who has this unusual religious vocation 271 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:09,840 as such as it is. But it's also the, the, the, you know, it kind of gives me more focus. So if 272 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:14,640 people ask me to do anything at all to do with loud out to see, I say yes, and then figure it out. 273 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:20,960 And, and then if people ask me to do general other things that I'm like, well, I don't know, 274 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:27,120 maybe if I can find a way to work it in, I'm already kind of busy. But I would say also now 275 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:33,440 more recently, you know, that was, you know, it was almost 10 years ago. That was seven years ago, 276 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,440 but I would just say more recently, it's like, well, Pope Francis is coming up with so many 277 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:43,600 different ideas now. It's sort of like synodality for Teletutti. I mean, a lot of most trans-Siscan 278 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,480 friars are really all in on the agenda of Pope Francis and his efforts at renewal and really 279 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:57,120 bringing, fostering conversion in the world. And, and, and so it, it doesn't exactly this experience 280 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:04,400 of mine and Gretchen doesn't exactly stand apart from other aspects of my sense of calling and 281 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:10,160 today, but it, it was, it, it does sort of, it did sort of like, was sort of like one of those 282 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:18,720 experiences where you're like, ping, kind of like, Oh, a lot of things kind of aligned in, and you 283 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,120 almost kind of hear it. You don't know, I didn't hear a voice, but it was like, it was sort of 284 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:30,160 like an awareness. Back to awareness. Yeah. Back to awareness. Yeah. I'd like to get into, 285 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:37,840 some of the practical implications of Laudato Si in this expanded edition of care for creation. But 286 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:43,280 the first, I just wanted to ask you, what's it like for you today to reflect on your journey? 287 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:51,360 I mean, you took us through being this 18 year old kid who goes off of this group and, you know, 288 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:57,120 is immersed in creation through these forests in the Northwestern United States. And then 289 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:04,800 here you are in Greccio in 2017, celebrating your 25 year anniversary in religious life 290 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:12,080 as a Franciscan friar. I mean, what an incredible journey you've had with creation as your guide. 291 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:26,960 Uh, yeah. I mean, I, I mean, it's, it's, um, um, I don't know what, how to comment on that question. 292 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:32,000 I would just say that it just, it just seems normal for me. Uh, I would say it doesn't seem 293 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:38,080 to be normal for too many other people. And that, that gives me kind of like a degree of sadness 294 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:45,360 that it seems sort of, that I seem so exotic to many people. Why does it give you sadness? 295 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,200 Well, just because I think that the message, especially in Laudato Si is like, this is for 296 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:57,040 everybody. Um, and you know, Laudato Si is not some little niche agenda. It's like a whole program for 297 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:04,720 renewing, uh, ecologically conscious Catholicism in the global church today. And you know, 298 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:10,800 the, in the, if I look at the U S church and the, the, the predominant direction that its leaders 299 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:16,480 are taking, it's like, it's turning its back on Laudato Si. It's like, I've done a lot of travel 300 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:22,880 as a result of my research and work with students, um, uh, various countries, lots of poor countries. 301 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:30,240 And, uh, everybody knows the climate is, um, is being seriously disrupted and it's having 302 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:36,400 serious long-term impacts on, uh, people, especially poor people, especially farmers. 303 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:42,880 And there isn't any discussion over whether or not climate is happening or whether it's some kind of 304 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:49,920 hoax. Like there's only one country where this is really happening. And so this is where, uh, you 305 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:56,720 know, I find the kind of like the lack of a willingness to speak the truth, um, within our 306 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:05,840 church to be sad, tragic, lost opportunity. And, you know, there's just so many other concerns seem 307 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:14,240 to be filling, uh, that up. Um, and I'm also just conscious of last year, Pope Francis wrote Laudato 308 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:21,280 Si, which was, really didn't add too much to the teachings of Laudato Si, but again, read the footnotes. 309 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:27,440 Here's the scholar in me. Like he cited the U S bishops very early on saying what was called for. 310 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,800 And then at the end, he said, you know, we can do this as long as we repent from like 311 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,720 U S style lifestyles and degrees of consumption. 312 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:46,080 And those were like, you know, footnotes are political. And so those, those were messages 313 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:53,760 that were not like direct, but if you, if you want to get, if you want to understand what the 314 00:33:53,760 --> 00:34:00,240 Pope is thinking about, he's like saying the America, you need to lead here. And so right now 315 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:07,120 it seems like we're, we're gearing up to lead in reverse. Uh, so, you know, this is like, we're, 316 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:13,360 we are headed on the wrong path in this country, uh, according to the moral teachings of 317 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:19,440 Pope Francis. Um, and, and, uh, what's called for is repentance and conversion. 318 00:34:20,240 --> 00:34:28,160 Um, and, um, it, I, I happily and joyfully join with any one in the church who 319 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,080 recognizes the need for that conversion. 320 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:37,840 But that's not, this is not a concern of many, many people in America. So then we have to really 321 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:42,320 ask, why is that? You know, this is like, what's the signs of the times? What, because like, 322 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,720 we've done lots of really good things in this country, environmentally, many, many good things 323 00:34:46,720 --> 00:34:52,320 at different times. And then we kind of backslide and we appear to be like, not a backslide, but a 324 00:34:52,320 --> 00:35:01,200 back run. Um, and so what is it, what is the spiritual cause of this? I think we have to be very, 325 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:08,480 we have to be very honest about this and confront kind of the greed, the selfishness 326 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:16,480 and the individualism and the consumerism. These are major factors that are not just bad for our 327 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:22,160 souls. They are affecting our poor brothers and sisters and our mother earth. And so this is where 328 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:28,640 this message of conversion is really so important. And it's really like, we have to take it seriously. 329 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:35,440 We have to act on it. And that's what's called for in that's not being, that's called for by 330 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:43,440 Francis, by Laudato Si, by Franciscans around the world, you know, clear on this, 331 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:48,000 but it's not a message that people want to hear or act on. 332 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:50,480 Yeah. Why, why is that? Do you think? 333 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:57,040 Well greed, selfishness, individualism, these blind us to others. And that's, you know, 334 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:03,680 you know, from Pope Francis introduced this concept of integral ecology, which is like 335 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:10,400 this holistic understanding of human beings in relationship to God, each other and creation 336 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:18,080 and kind of growing in our awareness, our spiritual awareness of, of the need for balanced and healthy 337 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:23,360 give and take relationships. It doesn't mean we can't cut down a tree, but we shouldn't remove 338 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:30,560 entire forests. It doesn't mean that we have to go back to living in caves, but if we adopted a 339 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:36,880 lifestyle that was moderate, sober, as Pope Francis said, simple and sober, we would, 340 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:42,400 we would work our way out of this mess, but we're too addicted to our stuff, to our power, 341 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:48,160 to our ability to decide for ourselves. And we're too indifferent to the suffering that this causes, 342 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:54,480 not usually directly. So Americans don't go around like attacking others, but by our consumption 343 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:59,520 and our greed and our indifference, this results in grave harms around the world. We're no, 344 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:06,560 we historically have been into most greenhouse gases. This isn't, this is unambiguous. Sure, 345 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:11,840 China is emitting more now, but that's a recent development. It's, we, we bear the historical 346 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:18,640 responsibility to lead this ecological conversion away from emitting greenhouse gases and towards 347 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:27,600 protected creation. But we are, you know, we're like, we're like Jonah. God called him to Nineveh 348 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:33,120 and Babylon, and instead he got on a boat and head for Spain. We're just not, we're, we're heading 349 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:41,680 in the wrong direction. So this is, this is a source of deep sadness and really kind of sadness 350 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:48,400 and kind of mourning that we so indifferent to the call of creation to us to live in harmony with 351 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:54,160 God and each other, the call of God, of course, coming through the book of nature. These are ancient, 352 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:59,280 ancient Christian traditions and not only Franciscan ones. Maybe they're prominent in it, 353 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:04,480 more prompt, relatively more prominent in the Franciscan world today, but these are ancient 354 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:14,640 practices, ancient, ancient wisdom perspectives of our church and they are not popular today. 355 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:20,240 Nat, yeah. Yeah. I'm curious to get your thoughts on this. One of my favorite quotes from Thomas 356 00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:28,000 Merton, he, he, he was writing, he says, he says something along the lines of, for many, and he's 357 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:35,040 talking about Americans and he says something along the lines of, for many, a tree has no reality 358 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:42,480 until they cut it down. It's something along those, and I think he's getting at this need in the 359 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:48,000 American mindset, at least the way I interpret it, this need in the American mindset to commodify 360 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:54,160 things, to, and he plays a lot with this, like, Hey, we'll, we'll plan a tree in the city, but we 361 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:59,600 have to dedicate it to the mayor. You know, like there always has to be some kind of meaning 362 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:07,040 attached, but in Franciscan spirituality and in contemplative spirituality, a lot of it comes down 363 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:12,720 to relationality. You know, like this tree isn't something for me to commodify, something for me 364 00:39:12,720 --> 00:39:18,560 to give it meaning because I've cut it down now. This tree speaks to me. It speaks truth to me 365 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:27,040 about who God is and how we are to renew the earth and be converted in the process. What are 366 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:36,000 your thoughts on that? 2025 is both the 10th anniversary of Laudato Si, but it's also the 367 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:42,800 800th anniversary of the Canticle of the Creatures. And so of course, many of the listeners to this 368 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:47,760 podcast would be familiar with the Canticle and probably singing it in church and familiar with 369 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:53,680 many of its lines. And certainly it is a beautiful and inspirational song. And it, it, it gives voice 370 00:39:53,680 --> 00:40:01,360 to a Franciscan care for creation in a most beautiful way. But this is another text that's 371 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:11,360 really worth kind of studying and reflecting upon. I believe it's Ilya, but I'm not sure. I, to be 372 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:17,920 honest, I don't remember the source, but I think Ilya refers to it as a Christic hymn, meaning a hymn 373 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:24,400 that references Christ. And then she explains it. I'm not sure it's in this book, but I'm pretty 374 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:31,600 sure she's talked about it in this way. And so, so I think that is really like, it is a, other people 375 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:41,040 say that it is, it is a, it is a metaphysical statement. Okay, there's a $20 word. So it's sort 376 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:48,800 of like it describing reality that Francis perceived, not using advanced philosophical 377 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:55,200 technical language, but as a song from the heart, emerging from his contemplative love of creation 378 00:40:55,200 --> 00:41:06,960 and his experience of God in creation. It's also, for example, the first song in modern Italian. 379 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:13,760 And so it's not exactly that. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's unusual as reverting to the, 380 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:22,240 the encyclical. The encyclical is from this kind of middle aged medieval Umbrian. It's not from 381 00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:28,240 Latin. Almost every other encyclical I know, it has the first words are from the Latin and this one 382 00:41:28,240 --> 00:41:37,520 is from medieval Umbrian. And so that's so interesting that the Pope decided to kind of deviate 383 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:45,840 as it were from, from tradition in order to embrace this and embrace it as a wisdom text. So, 384 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:51,520 so there, you know, again, I'm thinking about this, this, this relational, relationality 385 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:57,920 that's in the canticle. It's really, I think helpful for understanding Francis who used the 386 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:05,920 term brother hundreds of times. And then that sort of gives us the, gives me the, the, the, 387 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:12,480 the perspective and I hope you and your listeners as well, it's all about family. And family is the 388 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:18,880 root metaphor here for understanding Francis's relationship to other people and to earth and to 389 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:25,440 creation and to God. So it's all about always being in relationship and thinking about others, 390 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:32,400 not in this sort of like kind of doormat, milk toast. I don't have any, I don't belong here, 391 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:39,520 not in that kind of sense, but as a part of the family around the celebratory table or on the 392 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:46,160 outing together or, you know, holding hands, that's this, that those are the kind of images that I 393 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:51,440 think are suggested by this, both emerging from Francis's own insight, but also from, 394 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:59,920 it speaks to us today and it's available to us today if we choose to lean into this way of living, 395 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:06,160 this way of seeing, right? Contemplative is kind of an open-eyed prayer. The sense, this ability to, 396 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:16,640 this ability to, to lean into this gives, allows us to live this way as a, as a, as a, as a kind of 397 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:23,360 an expression of our love for Christ in the contemporary setting. So there's a famous scholar 398 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:28,560 named Paul Recur who talks about texts that have a surplus of meaning. And here we might think of 399 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:35,520 them as like fountains overflowing. And, you know, the, Francis didn't just sit down and scribble off 400 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:44,240 the canticle like some kind of bubblegum pop song, you know, it's not superficial. It's simple, 401 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:53,840 but he wrote it as an expression of an inner reality that was cultivated by 20 years of 402 00:43:53,840 --> 00:44:02,720 contemplation, especially in nature. He wrote it as he was mostly blind in a hut outside of 403 00:44:02,720 --> 00:44:10,240 Sant'Agnano in the midst of great suffering. So to, that puts a different context on this. This is 404 00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:15,680 not like the film Brothers, Sons, Sister Moon, where Francis is dancing through the poppy fields 405 00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:22,320 and everything's great. No, he's, he felt alienated from his, from the brotherhood he'd founded and he 406 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:32,800 was laying there in agony, mostly blind. So yeah, so there's great pain that is a part of the 407 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:39,200 Franciscan story about Francis's story and about the Franciscans today, even as we gaze upon this 408 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:45,920 kind of great tragedy of our indifference to creation, our selfishness and consumerism at 409 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:53,520 the expense of it, our hardheartedness towards the very clear suffering of creatures that are being 410 00:44:54,080 --> 00:45:00,400 pushed to irreversible extinction and the suffering of the poor. So this is the conversion that 411 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:09,840 Loud Out to Sea calls us to. Yeah, I was wondering, you mentioned back when you were 18 412 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:15,520 coming out of the woods one day and you were just like, why does no one care? And that has 413 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:22,240 been a theme throughout this conversation, that sadness that has accompanied you as you've embarked 414 00:45:22,240 --> 00:45:29,920 on this work. What do you do about that? How do you, I don't want to say combat the sadness, 415 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:35,840 but how, how do you work through it and continue to do the incredible work that you're doing, 416 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:40,160 even though it seems like it's been there every step of the way for you in this fight? 417 00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:49,840 Well, I think that wrestling with sadness is a part of a contemplative living. 418 00:45:51,840 --> 00:46:01,680 I think a lot of people will distract stuff, shoot up or drink to avoid feeling it. And that's not 419 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:10,560 something that's, but those aren't really contemplative. Embracing a contemplative life of prayer means 420 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:19,040 taking a long loving look at the really real and not shying away from it and embracing that reality 421 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:27,120 of taking in to a degree the suffering and the injustice that we are witness to. And that's, 422 00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:33,040 I think what we observe in Francis. And I think that's really what the Franciscan vocation 423 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:39,520 includes that to go deeper, right? To go deeper than, you know, bird baths and, you know, and 424 00:46:40,240 --> 00:46:47,680 operational rice bowl, which are fine. But those are really like, not that that's swimming in the 425 00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:54,640 kiddie pool. I mean, really we're calling, we're calling for radical conversion of life. That's 426 00:46:54,640 --> 00:47:01,440 what the witness of St. Francis is. And Pope Francis is calling for the ecological conversion 427 00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:08,880 of humanity. I mean, echoing what Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI said, and we do not want to hear it. 428 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,440 Yeah. Yeah. And that contemplative gaze that you're talking about 429 00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:22,960 that results in taking on the suffering of the world and being open to receiving 430 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:28,480 the pain of our fellow family, our brothers and sisters. I mean, 431 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:38,640 it's hard to sell. It's hard to sell. Yeah. Like it take on a contemplative gaze and confront 432 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:47,440 sadness. However, I'm curious what you think about this in that we awaken to the family that's all 433 00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:54,240 around us and the suffering that's around us. And in this sense, there's a freedom there because 434 00:47:54,240 --> 00:48:01,200 we're not isolated anymore. Am I on track there? Am I following? Yes, absolutely. So the sadness, 435 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:10,400 I mean, the sense of loss, the sense of outrage in the injustice and the kind of the, 436 00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:20,640 and being a witness to self-destruction is a part of the consequence of living a contemplative life. 437 00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:31,040 But it's never isolated from the joy, the sense of communio, the sense of accompaniment, the sense 438 00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:38,720 of being touched by God, the sense of God is in this even as humans continue to make a mess of 439 00:48:38,720 --> 00:48:45,040 things, even in the midst of tragedies and injustices, God is still present in some way. 440 00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:56,640 And that's part of what needs to be a Franciscan of any kind today, whether vowed or lay, 441 00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:03,040 just inspired by, I mean, it needs to be a walking in this contemplative, in a contemplative way 442 00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:15,200 through life, love and sorrow going together. And so that this is not, it's never all one or the other, 443 00:49:16,240 --> 00:49:24,640 but there's no real life apart from bearing witness to suffering. And one is never left 444 00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:32,400 only with suffering if one is truly contemplative. Yeah, that's beautiful. And I liked how in the 445 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:40,240 expanded edition of Care for Creation, you walked readers through a number of exercises that invite 446 00:49:40,240 --> 00:49:49,440 contemplation, that invite this gaze upon the real to see what is and therefore take it in and see 447 00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:55,360 what the response might be. So can you talk a little bit about this expanded edition, how it came 448 00:49:55,360 --> 00:50:04,800 about? And I know that in this work that you've been doing for so many years, that there is that 449 00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:11,600 sadness that accompanies this work like we've talked about. However, there's so much beauty in 450 00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:17,200 this expanded edition too. And I sense that there's a lot of hope in there for the future as we move 451 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:23,040 into the 800 year anniversary of the Canical, the 10 year anniversary of Laudato Si. I mean, 452 00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:28,800 there, however subtle it may be, you are a part of a movement again, like you were when you were 18. 453 00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:34,480 Right. So I'm very grateful to Dr. Darlene Prides, a colleague of mine here at the 454 00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:41,600 Franciscan School of Theology and acquisitions editor or something like that at Franciscan Media. 455 00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:47,920 So she suggested this and I said, sure. And part of it is because I've been given so many workshops 456 00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:55,440 and retreats and conferences and talks forever about doing something new in light of revising 457 00:50:55,440 --> 00:51:03,920 this in light of Laudato Si. So the text that care for creation itself is largely unchanged. 458 00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:09,840 A few little things were just kind of brought up to current, but really the new front material is 459 00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:18,320 about framing that text in light of what Laudato Si is doing in the church in the world. And now 460 00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:25,920 it's a Franciscan wisdom text, Laudato Si is, and then that allows people to enter into the original 461 00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:33,680 kind of 12 chapters. And then there's an expanded toolbox at the end, which was written by Pam and 462 00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:43,200 myself, Pam Wooden. And I wrote this as a, as we describe it as a toolkit for reflective practitioners, 463 00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:48,960 meaning these, this is for people who want to lead others who may not want to read a book, 464 00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:54,160 because a lot of people don't want to read books. But that doesn't mean that the impact of the 465 00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:58,560 message of care for creation is limited to the readers. It's an opportunity to take this into 466 00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:05,920 classrooms, into Sunday schools, into community groups, into parishes, into any number of 467 00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:11,280 institutional settings and group settings, and to be able to give people an experience 468 00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:16,800 that touches on this. So one of them is about taking an inventory of the waste that comes from 469 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:23,680 our home. It doesn't sound attractive, but it's a very compelling thing. Another activity is looking 470 00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:31,040 at the nature of how we are called to participate in helping others undergo a conversion process, 471 00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:38,720 ourselves and others together. And then the last is like a retreat kit for helping with leading 472 00:52:38,720 --> 00:52:43,760 others through a process of prayerfully reading passages of Laudato Si and reflecting upon 473 00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:51,600 these key words in the Franciscan tradition of praise and love, beauty, for example, as really 474 00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:57,920 key words for understanding Franciscan spirituality that are also revealed not just in texts about 475 00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:03,280 St. Francis, but in Laudato Si. And so with all of these things, we're hoping that this 476 00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:09,280 expanded edition will help people to be able to take the kind of message of what we crafted some 477 00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:17,600 18 years ago and see it still is valuable. And by expanding it, it will be able to reach 478 00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:25,600 more audiences and to continue to carry forward the message of hope and the blessings of undergoing 479 00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:33,040 ecological conversion that our father Francis and the message of the encyclical hold out for us. 480 00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:39,120 Pete Yeah, my final question is, you know, for some people listening, maybe they've never heard 481 00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:46,400 the term Franciscan eco-spirituality or integral ecology. I mean, what would, besides buying the 482 00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:54,640 book, which I would recommend, but what would be some, you know, next steps or some recommendations 483 00:53:54,640 --> 00:54:03,440 you may give to listeners about, hey, I want to join this movement. I want to enter into this 484 00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:07,120 conversion experience and finally do something about this. 485 00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:16,160 Mark Well, so there's a lot of resources that are in the book that are identified as kind of next 486 00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:22,880 steps. One of them would be to watch the movie that you can find on YouTube called The Letter. 487 00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:31,200 So that helps kind of personalize Laudato Si. I would say that finding networks, if you're 488 00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:36,960 Catholic, finding networks in the country or in your diocese of other people that are engaged in 489 00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:46,160 this. My diocese of San Diego is very active, but we have a very Laudato Si oriented cardinal here. 490 00:54:46,720 --> 00:54:50,800 Franciscan Action Network is a very good organization also that can get you started 491 00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:56,160 and get you connected with other like-minded people. It's really important to overcome the 492 00:54:56,160 --> 00:55:03,040 sense of sadness and loss by joining in community. That's another component of Franciscan approach 493 00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:08,640 here is that we cannot do this work alone. It is not work to be done alone. And if you try to do 494 00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:17,920 it alone, you will likely fail because it's meant to be a collective journey. And so with that, 495 00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:24,480 I wish everyone who's listening a blessing and a chance to read this book and to act on this 496 00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:32,480 and to be able to put Laudato Si into practice in their own lives as well. 497 00:55:55,280 --> 00:56:00,720 Huge thanks to our sponsor, The Franciscan School of Theology, and to Brother Keith for joining us 498 00:56:00,720 --> 00:56:07,680 on Off the Page. Thank you as always to you for tuning in and supporting this podcast. If you 499 00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:13,520 enjoyed the episode, please consider leaving a review or sharing it with your family or friends. 500 00:56:14,240 --> 00:56:20,400 And thank you as well to Cyprian Concilio for providing the music for this episode. I encourage 501 00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:26,640 you to check them out on Spotify, iTunes, or wherever you listen to your music. This is Stephen 502 00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:51,920 Copeland signing off. Peace and all good. I will lead you into the desert with me and tenderly