1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:14,300 This is Stephen Copeland and welcome to Off the Page. 2 00:00:14,300 --> 00:00:20,700 Mother Teresa once said to a reporter, quote, of all the countries I've been to, the poorest 3 00:00:20,700 --> 00:00:28,780 is America, because America suffers most from the poverty of loneliness, end quote. 4 00:00:28,780 --> 00:00:33,720 This landscape of loneliness is one that an estimated four out of ten Americans navigate 5 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:39,120 regularly is a recent study from Pew Research Center highlights. 6 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:44,240 In our culture, it is becoming increasingly difficult to cross the spiritual bridge from 7 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:46,560 loneliness to solitude. 8 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:53,720 Instead, it seems that we frenetically seek to fill the emptiness at all costs with stuff, 9 00:00:53,720 --> 00:01:00,840 with distractions, with ideology even, or other promises of wholeness and completeness. 10 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:05,800 The interview you're about to hear is with someone who has learned to find God, or perhaps 11 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:11,080 better said be found by God, when that sense of aloneness settles in. 12 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:15,540 Her story is wild as you'll hear and it's inspiring. 13 00:01:15,540 --> 00:01:20,080 It is my pleasure to introduce to you our next guest on Franciscan Media's Off the 14 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:25,280 Page podcast, Susan St. Singh. 15 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:31,680 Susan St. Singh, PhD, is the author of God's Love Song with Father Murray Bodo, which was 16 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,100 released this past year. 17 00:01:34,100 --> 00:01:39,600 And she's also the author of Francis and the San Damiano Cross, Meditations on Spiritual 18 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:41,740 Transformation. 19 00:01:41,740 --> 00:01:47,920 She received her doctorate in sport history and kinesiology from Penn State University, 20 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,260 and she is a secular Franciscan. 21 00:01:51,260 --> 00:01:57,040 She has been a main speaker at national conferences on St. Clair and on spirituality, and she 22 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,280 resides in Stuart, Florida. 23 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:04,620 I'm so thrilled to share this interview with you, and I want to thank Susan for having 24 00:02:04,620 --> 00:02:09,560 such an honest conversation about her journey and struggles. 25 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:15,440 It is an honor to present to you my interview with Susan St. Singh, but first, a message 26 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,280 from our sponsor. 27 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:23,600 Earning a Master of Theological Studies with the Franciscan Theology Lens is now possible 28 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:25,800 anywhere in the world. 29 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:31,440 The Master's program at the Franciscan School of Theology offers a blend of academic engagement 30 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:33,900 and spiritual reflection. 31 00:02:33,900 --> 00:02:38,840 You can learn at your own pace while connecting with fellow students and instructors in a 32 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,280 respectful and down-to-earth environment. 33 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:47,980 Embark on a 24-month mutually transformative journey with the world-renowned faculty and 34 00:02:47,980 --> 00:02:51,920 instructors from FST. 35 00:02:51,920 --> 00:02:57,820 The Master of Theological Studies, Franciscan Theology is 100% online. 36 00:02:57,820 --> 00:03:01,920 You can complete it in 24 months, and it is fully accredited. 37 00:03:01,920 --> 00:03:06,120 I actually just completed this program, and it's amazing. 38 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,080 So I highly recommend it. 39 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:12,760 To learn more, you can visit theologicalstudies.sandiego.edu. 40 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:21,120 Again, that's theologicalstudies.sandiego.edu. 41 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,680 Susan St. Singh, welcome to the Off the Page podcast. 42 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:26,640 Thanks for joining us. 43 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:29,460 Thanks for having me, Stephen. 44 00:03:29,460 --> 00:03:35,640 So I was wondering, you write beautifully and transparently in your book, God's Love 45 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:41,080 Long, a book you did with Father Murray Bodo, a big author here at Franciscan Media, about 46 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,040 some vulnerable moments in your life. 47 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:49,400 And I was wondering if we could start this interview at the very beginning of your journey, 48 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:50,840 if you don't mind. 49 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:56,040 What was your childhood like, and when did spirituality enter the picture for you? 50 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,400 Okay. 51 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:07,240 My childhood, I grew up in Pennsylvania, and I really didn't care much about God or church. 52 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:14,800 I was much too focused on going skiing or hiking up in the mountains. 53 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:23,840 But it actually, my spirituality, if you will, started up in the mountains, up in the woods. 54 00:04:23,840 --> 00:04:29,560 Some of the first things I ever wrote were about being up in the mountains, being by 55 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,640 myself, hiking. 56 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:43,200 I just loved to be near nature, either mountains or oceans or some kind of water. 57 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:53,360 But I think the spirituality started when I got probably to be more of a young teenager. 58 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,640 I was up one winter night. 59 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:02,480 My parents stopped asking me where I was going because I was out hiking someplace up on the 60 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,080 mountain in the snow. 61 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:09,320 And I was sitting up in a field that was cut down, mowed down, I guess. 62 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:13,560 I was at the edge of a farmer's field right where the forest starts. 63 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:18,880 And I just sat down, and it was Christmas Eve, stars were out. 64 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:24,720 It was very clear, clear night, black sky. 65 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:30,280 And there was a woman in our church, Mrs. Ryovsky, who was singing Ave Maria. 66 00:05:30,280 --> 00:05:31,280 And I could hear it. 67 00:05:31,280 --> 00:05:38,000 I grew up in this little mountain town, basically, where some of my classmates rode their horses 68 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:39,000 to school. 69 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,400 That's how rural it was. 70 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:46,280 But I could hear that song drifting through the night sky. 71 00:05:46,280 --> 00:05:53,240 And the houses, the lights down below and smoke coming from chimneys, it was almost 72 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:57,160 a Norman Rockwell painting of some type or something. 73 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:03,620 But that's where something touched me that I wasn't alone. 74 00:06:03,620 --> 00:06:08,660 And then I always felt that since then that there was something. 75 00:06:08,660 --> 00:06:15,720 Maybe that was the first time I felt a spiritual world, good and bad, dark and light. 76 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:17,160 But I knew the light. 77 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,800 I knew I was not alone, if that makes any sense. 78 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:21,800 Absolutely. 79 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:22,800 Yeah. 80 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,900 I appreciate you walking us through that scene. 81 00:06:25,900 --> 00:06:30,080 How old were you? 82 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:34,320 Maybe 14, you know, that era. 83 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:36,000 Yeah. 84 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:43,760 And what was it about nature that always kind of drew you in? 85 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:44,760 I don't know. 86 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:53,800 The beauty of it, the solitude, the quietness, particularly any animal sounds, like to just 87 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,760 be able to sit by a stream. 88 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:02,480 And like there was one place in this ravine that I used to hike a lot where you could 89 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:07,880 sit on, it's a very steep, very dangerous place actually to go hiking, but where the 90 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:14,240 water would be below you, but above you, hawks or eagles, because I lived in the mountains, 91 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:18,720 could soar down through these, you know, the wind. 92 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:27,320 And so you were kind of sandwiched in between the fish in the waterfalls below and the birds 93 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:29,640 above and you were just part of it. 94 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:37,400 Like I really felt like a creature, like I was one of God's creation. 95 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:41,160 That's the best way I can explain it. 96 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:47,360 Yeah, and that feeling you talked about of not being alone. 97 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:55,120 Did you feel alone before that or can you go a little bit deeper into, it's just, it's 98 00:07:55,120 --> 00:08:04,120 such a touching scene, this young girl out on a hike and something touched you that day, 99 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,600 something ripped your heart that day. 100 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:12,760 I think I always felt alone as a kid, as a young kid. 101 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,320 My family moved a lot. 102 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:22,780 I was always in and out of different schools for different reasons and I never really had 103 00:08:22,780 --> 00:08:31,720 any close friends except my animals, my pets, my dogs, cats, guinea pigs. 104 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:36,280 I felt closest to, I'm not saying my family was weird or anything. 105 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:45,080 My family was very loving family, but I just never felt connected to anything except that 106 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,600 one night, anything spiritual, anything other. 107 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:57,840 I mean, I love my brother and my family, but I never felt that inner peace, if you will. 108 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:04,520 As a kid, I was always awake a lot at night, wondering about things. 109 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:06,760 I must maybe a strange kid. 110 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:12,840 I'd sit at night when my sister would be sleeping and just be looking out the window wondering. 111 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:17,440 I mean, I'm talking about like five-year-olds, you know, wondering what was out there in 112 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,960 the universe and the stars and the darkness. 113 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:26,560 I'd leave the house at night, even as a small kid and go out in the backyard and just sit 114 00:09:26,560 --> 00:09:29,440 on the swings and look at the sky. 115 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:31,720 I don't know. 116 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:37,440 Yeah, it's like you were Franciscan before you even knew what that word was. 117 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:38,920 Maybe. 118 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:40,720 Yeah. 119 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:45,240 When did writing and artistic expression enter the picture for you? 120 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:50,520 At a very young age, I wanted to play the guitar. 121 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:57,880 I recorded for, well, I had a contract with Warner Brothers at one time with Arlo Guthrie. 122 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:07,960 I started playing the guitar when I was maybe in fifth grade and wrote songs, sang songs. 123 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:14,520 We had a number of cassette albums with Father Murray with what used to be called St. Anthony 124 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:15,520 Messenger. 125 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:17,960 Now it's Franciscan media. 126 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,960 I had a record contract, like I said, with Warner Brothers for a while. 127 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:27,740 A couple of my songs, Brother Wind, was recorded and it was in that Sunday Missal that they 128 00:10:27,740 --> 00:10:33,240 used to have in churches back in the day. 129 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:39,520 I started my writing with playing, writing songs. 130 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,120 I just played my own songs usually. 131 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,960 I don't know how to read music, but oddly enough, I can write music. 132 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:46,960 I don't know why. 133 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:51,360 They're two different gifts I found out later. 134 00:10:51,360 --> 00:11:01,280 When I started to write, keep a journal, when I was maybe 12, I started writing. 135 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,320 I still have my earliest writing. 136 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:05,640 It's about from that age. 137 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:06,640 Yeah. 138 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:15,480 Well, that doesn't surprise me because your writing in God's Love Song is, it feels very, 139 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,440 the prose is very lyrical. 140 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:18,780 No. 141 00:11:18,780 --> 00:11:19,780 Thank you. 142 00:11:19,780 --> 00:11:20,780 Yeah. 143 00:11:20,780 --> 00:11:27,160 It has a way of, Father Murray, he's similar in the way he writes. 144 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:32,920 It has a way of taking you in on a sensory level. 145 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:38,600 Well, when I would write songs, sometimes I would wake up in the middle of the night 146 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:42,600 and I could just pick up the guitar and an entire song would be there. 147 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,640 The chords, the picking, the words, everything. 148 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:57,320 All I had to do was keep up with what I was hearing coming and lay it down on the guitar. 149 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,160 That's the way that my writing has always been. 150 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:04,480 It just comes. 151 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,880 The muse, I think I told you a little bit about that. 152 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:08,880 Then I'm like a scribe. 153 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:15,520 That's the way I've always, I don't credit myself really for the inspiration or for what 154 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:20,200 comes out is just I'm trying to write down what I heard interiorly. 155 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,240 It's always been like that. 156 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:29,480 That can be frustrating sometimes for a publisher because they want an outline, they want this, 157 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,960 they want... It's like I don't have it yet. 158 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,720 It hasn't been given yet, if that makes any sense. 159 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:41,720 I don't want to sound too esoteric about it or anything like that, but it's just the way 160 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:42,720 it is. 161 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:44,840 No, it makes a lot of sense. 162 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:53,400 I know in my own work, I've explained it as it's almost as if a story grips me and then 163 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:59,320 I'm not stuck in a maze. 164 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:08,400 I'm enjoying being lost in the story and yet I have to write my way out of the story for 165 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:09,400 myself. 166 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,800 A lot of it's just for myself. 167 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:14,760 I feel inspired. 168 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:20,640 I feel that sense of not aloneness that you mentioned and the story has met me where I'm 169 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:25,480 at and now I have to write my way out of it and I don't know the way out. 170 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,080 I'll figure it out as I write. 171 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:32,600 Yes, I know exactly what you mean. 172 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:38,880 I had a contract to write a few books for St. Martin's Press and the one was called 173 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:46,680 The Wonder Crew and I had a timeline on that book, the New York Publisher and I just couldn't 174 00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:50,000 get, it just didn't come. 175 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:57,520 Then one day I was at a stoplight and all of a sudden the first line came and so I pulled 176 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:03,840 over into a police department parking lot and I was grabbing everything in my car, wrapping 177 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,280 Kleenexes, whatever I could find and start scribbling on it. 178 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:12,240 Once I got that first paragraph, the whole book just came together. 179 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,280 I just didn't ever have the first line. 180 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:21,760 Yeah, well you're right. 181 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:27,920 In our age of, our Buzzfeed kind of age of hey, here's the top 12 things, here's the 182 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:35,040 outline, here's the formulaic kind of breakdown of things, the creativity you're describing 183 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:40,080 can be uncomfortable to say a marketing team. 184 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:48,120 However, I think there's something really beautiful about it because the openness, the 185 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:53,400 fact that you're opening your heart in real time to receiving what the muse is saying 186 00:14:53,400 --> 00:15:01,880 to you, what the muse is giving to you, it's almost like we don't have the answers. 187 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:03,000 I wish I had the answers. 188 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:04,640 I don't have the answers. 189 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:13,280 I need something outside of me to communicate the direction, the trajectory of this thing 190 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:15,600 and I have to be open to it. 191 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:17,960 I have to be open to it so I can receive it. 192 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,320 Any thoughts on that? 193 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,360 I think the openness is a big part of it. 194 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,780 I think in our current world, I don't know how it is at your house, but in my world there's 195 00:15:29,780 --> 00:15:31,400 so many distractions. 196 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:41,680 It's hard to find that quiet time, at least at my age now, it was easy when I was young 197 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:47,680 obviously, but where you're not distracted with all this inner noise. 198 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:54,400 I once had somebody ask me because I have to drive to work about an hour each way and 199 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,880 they asked me once, well, what do you listen to? 200 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:06,920 Do you listen to music, do you listen to podcasts, do you listen to classical music or books 201 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:07,920 on tape? 202 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:08,920 I said nothing. 203 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,040 I listened to absolutely nothing. 204 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:22,080 In the car, I can be open, quiet, but that inner openness is that I think also at a spiritual 205 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:23,080 level. 206 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:30,840 There has to be a level of either, I've found either a level of peace or a level of great 207 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:35,280 upheaval. 208 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:39,360 Sometimes when my life is really in a bad place, if you want to think of it that way, 209 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:43,480 a difficult situation, I can sit down and write. 210 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,960 You'll see that in some of the writing when I'm up in the middle of the night. 211 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:54,200 I think I even talked about that in God's Love Song and I'm writing them too. 212 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:55,200 Yeah. 213 00:16:55,200 --> 00:17:01,280 No, that's been part of it as well for me is the emotion, good or bad. 214 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:06,840 It can be this, I don't think there's good or bad is the wrong way. 215 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:11,760 That's too dualistic of a way to explain it, but the rupture of emotion, whether that's 216 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:17,560 gratitude like the moment you described as a teenager and you're just in awe feeling 217 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:25,800 like you're not alone or the chaos within me, the fear, the insecurity, the future tripping, 218 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:31,040 the replaying my past mistakes, all these different things. 219 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:35,180 Sometimes frankly, that's the story and I have to write my way out of that thing or 220 00:17:35,180 --> 00:17:38,360 else it's just going to keep having a hold on me. 221 00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:40,880 Yes, I totally agree with that. 222 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:47,040 It's these intrusive thoughts sometimes at night that you don't want that I'll get up 223 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:55,240 and start addressing them or I'll just start writing something that's come to me, the questions 224 00:17:55,240 --> 00:18:00,840 of why and try to answer them on the computer screen. 225 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:05,320 I used to just write longhand. 226 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:10,560 Most of my writing was done longhand, but now it's hard for me to, it's not hard, but 227 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:14,600 so time consuming to go transcribe from longhand to the computer. 228 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:20,440 So now I've gotten used to trained myself, if you will, to just sit at the keyboard. 229 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:28,440 Yeah, does that sense of, maybe this isn't the correct word, but that feeling of bombardment 230 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:35,680 where all of a sudden you wake up and the thoughts are just running and the discontent 231 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:42,520 or whatever it may be within you, does that happen a lot for you at night or when does 232 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,400 that kind of unfold? 233 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,560 It's almost always at night. 234 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:49,840 Same. 235 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:55,920 I was always even as a child going back, I never slept well. 236 00:18:55,920 --> 00:19:03,320 I always was awake at, not always, but I don't want to sound sleep deprived, but I was awake 237 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:09,080 a lot at night just wondering, because I think part of that could have been because we moved 238 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:10,080 around. 239 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:15,840 We lived in different houses, different noises, different sounds, wondering where my dad was 240 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:22,520 sometimes because he would work late and I would just sit at the top of the stairs and 241 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:27,560 listen to the house and just wonder. 242 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:37,640 Then I think as you get into your spiritual journey too, I truly believe that the darkness, 243 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:45,080 if you want to call it that, tries to interrupt and interfere and influence your thinking 244 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,680 and you have to sort that out. 245 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:52,240 Yeah, that's a perfect way to say it. 246 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,160 You have to sort it out. 247 00:19:55,160 --> 00:20:03,920 The challenge for me, whenever that sense of bombardment of thoughts or inner turmoil 248 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:11,160 happens in the middle of the night, one, that's always when you're most vulnerable. 249 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:12,160 You're asleep. 250 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,240 You're doing something that you have to do as a human and then you wake up and you're 251 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:16,960 like, there it is. 252 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:18,920 There's the darkness again. 253 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:29,680 It's been a challenge for me to try to reframe it and say, this is an opportunity for contemplation, 254 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:38,160 for perhaps resting in a different way through prayer, through creativity, like you mentioned, 255 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,200 that maybe there's something here that's not all bad. 256 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:46,800 Do you have any thoughts on that? 257 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,920 I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying, but- 258 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,160 We get that a lot on this podcast. 259 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:54,160 Sorry. 260 00:20:54,160 --> 00:21:00,440 No, I don't think it's all bad. 261 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:07,840 Sometimes whatever the... I'm going to go back to the word darkness because that's the 262 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:12,600 only way that... At three o'clock in the morning for me, you were saying that's when 263 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,680 you're the most vulnerable at night. 264 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:16,360 For me, it's 3 a.m. 265 00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:23,320 I wake for whatever the reason at 3 a.m., probably 75% of the time in my life and I 266 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:31,320 don't know why, do know why, but that's also now become one of the times when I don't struggle 267 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,480 anymore with the inner thoughts. 268 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:42,120 I just get up and I will start to either write, make a cup of tea, or just accept the fact 269 00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:48,120 that this is part of the spiritual world. 270 00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:49,500 I'm just going to talk a minute. 271 00:21:49,500 --> 00:21:59,600 You can edit it out if you want later, but when I was, again, maybe 12, 11 years old, 272 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:07,800 I had a sense one night of something in the room and when I rolled over to see what it 273 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:15,560 was, I had a pretty startling, I don't want to say a vision because I'm not a saint or 274 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,080 anything like that, but there was a presence in the room. 275 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:20,080 I knew it. 276 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:26,440 I could feel it the same way as I knew that night on that snowy night that I wasn't alone. 277 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,840 I also knew I wasn't alone in this evil. 278 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:38,800 There was a darkness in the room. 279 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:49,040 I call it unwanted knowledge because I know that that was kind of the moment when I realized 280 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:56,240 everything in the, it's all true, everything in the Bible, all this stuff that we read 281 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,520 that sometimes it's hard for us to connect to because it happened so many, you know, 282 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,440 the millennia ago, that it's true. 283 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:16,400 There are two worlds and we're called to walk in the light and we can be afraid, but there's 284 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:17,400 no harm. 285 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,320 I think St. Teresa said that once. 286 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:25,240 Yeah, I'd like to go back to that theme of darkness for lack of a better term, if you 287 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,360 don't mind. 288 00:23:28,360 --> 00:23:35,920 You wrote in God's love song about a kind of fragile time in your own life where you 289 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:41,040 found yourself wrestling with God in a chapel at Penn State. 290 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:45,800 I found the writing very gripping and the story very relatable. 291 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:51,000 What was going on at that time in your life and what did the priest in that church say 292 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,000 to you? 293 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:58,800 Well, you know, if you think of your spiritual life as like rungs on a ladder or something, 294 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:05,800 that was kind of my trying to climb out at some troubled times. 295 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,960 My father had died. 296 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:18,080 And I felt really, there was a prayer group at Penn State called Bread of Life. 297 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:24,560 And I was walking back from a class one evening and I saw these people, there was about 40 298 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:30,000 or 50 college students in there, a couple of Benedictine monks, and they were singing 299 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:34,200 and they all looked happy. 300 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:42,440 And I stopped and I looked in the window and I just watched them and I knew I didn't have 301 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:47,960 whatever they had, I didn't have inside me. 302 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,000 And I got angry. 303 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:56,000 I used to go to church a lot in my town in Berwick. 304 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,020 Usually when there was no mass or a priest or anybody, I'd go in and just kind of walk 305 00:25:00,020 --> 00:25:06,680 around the church and pray as you would as a young person or something. 306 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,280 I didn't really kneel down a lot and pray formal prayers. 307 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:15,560 I was just always kind of wondering, looking at the statues. 308 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:23,160 And so when I saw that, it was so poignant that they were happy and I was unhappy. 309 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,300 I was pretty much alone at Penn State. 310 00:25:25,300 --> 00:25:30,400 Like I said, my father died, my mother was in a vulnerable position, we were going to 311 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,600 lose the house again. 312 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,160 I didn't have money. 313 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,320 It was awful. 314 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:48,280 I had a scholarship to be in school, but I was sleeping on a mattress that I had gotten 315 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,280 out of a dumpster behind a McDonald's. 316 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,760 That kind of college life, it was not easy. 317 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,520 And I didn't have my dogs with me. 318 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:04,280 It's a lot of stuff in the background that made me terribly alone. 319 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,520 And then when I saw them, like I said, and how happy they were, I went in. 320 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,480 There was a small chapel at Penn State. 321 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:14,680 It's a really cool school there because where they built the university was part of the 322 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,960 original diocese. 323 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:22,560 And when the diocese gave up the land, they said, we're going to keep this small chapel. 324 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,760 You must keep this small Catholic chapel on campus. 325 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:31,520 So there's a small Catholic chapel there that's just, it's incredibly precious. 326 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:36,640 It's about the size of San Damiano's in Assisi. 327 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,280 And so I went in there, no one could see me. 328 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:47,920 I went in a door in the back of this building and I just sat down. 329 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:53,440 And I started to try to listen to them in the background and argue with God right in 330 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:54,620 front of me. 331 00:26:54,620 --> 00:26:57,280 And I just got mad. 332 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:03,640 And I was like, you know, why am I so, why do you keep me so alone? 333 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:05,100 Why am I so unhappy? 334 00:27:05,100 --> 00:27:07,240 Why did they have what they have? 335 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:12,560 And I threw a couple of the missiles on the floor and I went up to the tabernacle. 336 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,200 I didn't hurt it, but I put my hands on the altar. 337 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:21,720 I was basically arguing with the tabernacle, if you want to think of it that way. 338 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:30,460 But I guess when I threw some of the prayer books on the floor, it was a stone chapel. 339 00:27:30,460 --> 00:27:35,560 It made enough noise that somebody heard it and they told Father Leopold, he was the priest 340 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:36,560 who came in. 341 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:41,860 He became the arch abbot at the Trobe Arch Abbey. 342 00:27:41,860 --> 00:27:44,360 And he became my spiritual director. 343 00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:46,680 And I didn't know he was there. 344 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,800 And I continued my rant. 345 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:54,120 And as I remember, I think I took one of the candles off one of the, and I didn't break 346 00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:55,400 it, but I had it in my hand. 347 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,600 I was just kind of holding it. 348 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,920 And then I laid it down and I turned to leave. 349 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,640 And that's when he was sitting there. 350 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:08,360 And I had started crying. 351 00:28:08,360 --> 00:28:13,360 And as I went to walk out, I just went over and I sat next to him. 352 00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:21,800 And Leopold was a very large guy, maybe 6'3", big roly poly Benedictine monk in his block. 353 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,760 He had his robes on. 354 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:32,880 And he just held me and he said, well, you know, he loves you anyway, right? 355 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:42,060 And then he told me to just go home and be quiet and listen. 356 00:28:42,060 --> 00:28:44,400 He said, God will answer. 357 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:45,400 That's all he said. 358 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:51,060 He didn't say a lot, but I think it was the smell of him. 359 00:28:51,060 --> 00:29:01,040 He smelled like aftershave and warmth and just totally trustworthy. 360 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,000 Just could just sit there. 361 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,160 I could have just sat there for hours. 362 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:06,160 Correct, we didn't. 363 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,120 It was very brief. 364 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:15,240 But it's just those arms around me just was just, I'll never forget it, sitting in that 365 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,640 poo and just a few words that he said. 366 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,440 And then he got up and left and I got up and went home. 367 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:27,760 And then I had that experience, I think I wrote about in the book too that night. 368 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:28,760 So. 369 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:29,760 Yeah. 370 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:30,760 Yeah. 371 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:32,880 Where did your journey go from there, Susan? 372 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,960 You talked about Father Leopold became your spiritual director. 373 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:41,120 How did this wrestling, this continued wrestling unfold? 374 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:47,240 And then what guidance was he able to give you as you navigated this really vulnerable 375 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,840 time at a young age too? 376 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,560 I mean, to lose your father as an undergrad, correct? 377 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:54,560 Right. 378 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,560 I mean, that's a lot. 379 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:57,560 Yeah. 380 00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,920 He got sick when I was in high school. 381 00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:05,760 And well, I went home that night and I remember he said to tell me, he told me to go home 382 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,720 and just sit quietly and God will answer. 383 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:14,120 Well, that didn't help a lot, but I did go home and I got up and I waited. 384 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:21,520 I just sat at the table in my apartment and I again went into a bit of a rant and I said, 385 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,880 okay, Lord, God, I'm here. 386 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:25,120 You want to say anything to me? 387 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:31,360 I was really pretty outspoken. 388 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,800 If you have anything to say to me, I'll sit here one night. 389 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,760 If you don't talk to me tonight, then it's okay. 390 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:41,800 I'm out being not very respectful, but that's how I felt. 391 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:43,600 It was like, I'm here. 392 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,000 You got one night, say something. 393 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,320 If not, I'm not listening. 394 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:51,840 Because I was in a lot of pain interiorly. 395 00:30:51,840 --> 00:31:00,160 There was some other things to the story, but so I sat there and then I sat there a 396 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:07,400 long time, a couple of hours just sitting, waiting and around, I don't know, 2.30 in 397 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:17,480 the morning, all of a sudden I was on the floor and that one brick wall in my apartment 398 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:25,400 just opened like it wasn't there and I could see all these colors of purple and gold. 399 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,400 I could see into the universe. 400 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:28,600 It was immense. 401 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,480 It was just immense. 402 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,560 The holiness, it was so holy. 403 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,120 I couldn't get off the floor. 404 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:43,640 I tried, I tried, but I had to remain prostrate on the floor. 405 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:54,240 I was face down, but I was completely immersed in whatever this magnificent light, purple 406 00:31:54,240 --> 00:32:00,600 and gold and out into the darkness, into like a million stars. 407 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:05,240 The only word that came to me was Abba. 408 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,520 I didn't know what that word meant. 409 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,240 Then it was gone. 410 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,760 But I knew that I was different. 411 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,920 I just knew everything changed. 412 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,640 The whole world to me changed. 413 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:26,040 It was like, so the next morning I went up to the Catholic offices and I found Father 414 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:30,480 Leopold and I told him a little bit. 415 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,120 I said, I don't know what this word means. 416 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,880 I heard this word and I don't know what it means. 417 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:40,040 And so I told him what it, I said, I didn't even pronounce it right at first. 418 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:46,840 And so then he told me to go down to this bookstore and buy a Bible and look it up. 419 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:48,520 I'm sorry, I don't remember the passage. 420 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,320 It's in Romans, I believe. 421 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:57,920 And that's where, you know, that you're a child, child of God. 422 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,480 Yeah, yeah. 423 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,320 It's, yeah. 424 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,680 And does Abba mean father as well? 425 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:06,680 Father. 426 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:14,320 That's very interesting that at this very dark time in your life where you're grappling 427 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:22,320 with the loss of your father, this person who raised you and loved you, that's the word 428 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:27,320 that comes to you in this mystical experience in your apartment. 429 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,360 Yeah. 430 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:35,120 And I had a very close relationship with someone and that had been lost at the same time when 431 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:41,920 I went to school, a person that I thought I would be married to forever or be with the 432 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,320 rest of my life, that happened at the same time. 433 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:54,060 There were a number of things, like I said personally, that were happening and that added 434 00:33:54,060 --> 00:34:00,080 to that level of anger, I think, at my own life that I was so young and everything was 435 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:01,880 such a disaster already. 436 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:09,520 Didn't see how I was ever going to get out of it because I was pretty much alone. 437 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,260 And then all of a sudden there was this presence. 438 00:34:12,260 --> 00:34:19,520 And then, so Father Leopold stayed as my spiritual director from then on and he told me to come 439 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,160 to those prayer meetings, if you want to call them that, with bread of life. 440 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:32,240 And then I moved into one of their households on campus and it was a great group of, I'm 441 00:34:32,240 --> 00:34:38,040 still in contact with many of them and we're a pretty tight group yet. 442 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:45,000 And my one, that's how I met Father Murray. 443 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,960 I always knew who St. Francis was, just from church. 444 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:55,320 I mean, I heard his name, but it wasn't like I really knew that much about him. 445 00:34:55,320 --> 00:35:00,800 And in our households, we lived male and female because we were all just college kids, you 446 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:01,800 know. 447 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:06,960 And some of us were in houses with five or six bedrooms and we all shared kitchens and 448 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:15,280 you know, it was very much the 70s kind of feel, Woodstock and all that stuff, you know. 449 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:24,160 But one of the guys in our house, he just recently died of cancer. 450 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:28,520 He was in the room next to my room. 451 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:32,320 Like I said, I was usually restless that night or I'd play the guitar and he's trying to 452 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:37,460 do his master's work in botany and I was keeping him awake. 453 00:35:37,460 --> 00:35:43,280 And so he came into the doorway of my room and he had a book in his hand called Francis 454 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:47,000 the Journey and the Dream, right? 455 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,720 And he was way ahead of me on the spiritual, you know, trail. 456 00:35:50,720 --> 00:35:55,400 He was very deep into different saints and stuff. 457 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,660 And he said, you're driving me crazy. 458 00:35:57,660 --> 00:36:01,040 You're always singing in the middle of the night and I can't do my work or you're, you 459 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:02,600 know, you're up walking around. 460 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,560 He said, you need to talk to somebody. 461 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,640 And he said, he said, so here, talk to this guy. 462 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:17,640 And on the back of Father Murray's first edition of that book, he's holding a pipe and he's 463 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:22,920 clean shaven and he had like black glasses and he still had hair at that moment. 464 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,780 Sorry, Murray. 465 00:36:25,780 --> 00:36:28,320 And John said, here, talk to him. 466 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:29,320 Nice face. 467 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:30,960 Talk to him. 468 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,440 And so I did. 469 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:37,120 And I read the Journey and the Dream and that was it. 470 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:42,120 I just, that's where I first got into St. Francis. 471 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:50,080 And then probably within just a few weeks of all of that, I fell in gymnastics at Penn 472 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:59,280 State and I broke my neck and back, which didn't help for matters. 473 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:07,480 But I knew when that happened too, I told the doctors, because I was in a, I spent 10 474 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:15,360 years in a pain control center during that whole journey, but I couldn't graduate from 475 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,040 Penn State in my major. 476 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:24,300 I lost my graduate scholarship to go to grad school because I couldn't write. 477 00:37:24,300 --> 00:37:26,320 I was partially paralyzed. 478 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,440 I don't want to over dramatize that. 479 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:34,240 I was, it was neuralgia in my right arm, right upper quadrant. 480 00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:39,520 It wasn't probably like someone would think who's in a wheelchair and have some kind of 481 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:41,760 severe paralysis. 482 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:50,200 Mine was mainly pain oriented and it was nerve oriented too, but it was more weakness than. 483 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:56,240 But anyway, I just decided the only person that would possibly understand or could explain 484 00:37:56,240 --> 00:37:58,920 all this to me was St. Francis. 485 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,440 I had to go talk to him. 486 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:11,720 And I just told Father Leopold that I was going to Assisi and he just said, well, you 487 00:38:11,720 --> 00:38:16,000 know, if you think that that's what you have to do, he said, then go. 488 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,640 And so that's what I did. 489 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:26,240 I had a hundred dollars in my pocket, you know, stupid college American kid thinking 490 00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:29,160 a hundred dollars in Europe is going to last me, you know, the whole summer. 491 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:39,160 Of course it didn't be the first day, but I went to Assisi and it was a long, interesting 492 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,960 train ride all through just even when I first landed. 493 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:45,960 Do you want to hear all this or is it okay? 494 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:46,960 Absolutely. 495 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:47,960 Yeah. 496 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:48,960 Yep. 497 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:53,480 Well, I took Air Icelandic because that was the cheapest airline at the time. 498 00:38:53,480 --> 00:39:03,320 And I landed in Belgium, no, Luxembourg. 499 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:05,800 It landed in Luxembourg. 500 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:12,520 And as soon as I got off the plane, I realized I'm in trouble because there was a hotel there, 501 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:19,000 but it was 60 US dollars for the night and I only had a hundred dollars for three months. 502 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,640 I was going to be gone all summer. 503 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:33,120 And so I picked up the phone and I had a charismatic renewal listing of prayer communities around 504 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:34,120 the world. 505 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:40,160 And there was one in Iceland or in Luxembourg, in Luxembourg city. 506 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:46,960 So I called on the phone and it said Father Smith, because it was printed in English. 507 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:48,360 I wasn't thinking. 508 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:52,680 So I asked for Father Smith and they hung up. 509 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:58,080 And I also didn't have a lot of change to be using these foreign pay phones. 510 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,960 So I tried it again and they hung up again. 511 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:05,320 And then it dawned on me, oh, they probably don't understand English. 512 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,240 And my parents or my grandparents were German on the one side. 513 00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:12,200 So I knew a little bit of German. 514 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:20,320 So I just said Herr Schmidtbitter, the best German I could muster. 515 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,800 And then they said Ein Moment, something like that. 516 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:28,280 And then he comes on the phone and I said, Father, I hope you speak English because I've 517 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:30,240 just exhausted my German. 518 00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:32,160 And he said that he did. 519 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:33,860 So he picked me up from the airport. 520 00:40:33,860 --> 00:40:38,440 I told him I was a college student and trying to get to a CZ. 521 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,680 Took me to one of his parishioners' houses to stay for the night. 522 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:47,520 Picked me up the next morning, put me on the proper train, all of which I had no idea how 523 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:49,840 to do any of it. 524 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:54,600 And had the train going down through the Alps and all of this. 525 00:40:54,600 --> 00:41:02,840 So it was another just rainy dark night on a train with a woman sitting across from me 526 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,600 in this little... 527 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:12,660 We had a room, not like a roomette, but like two benches facing one another. 528 00:41:12,660 --> 00:41:13,660 And she didn't like me. 529 00:41:13,660 --> 00:41:19,700 It was clear that she didn't want me to go in there, but I didn't want to be anyplace 530 00:41:19,700 --> 00:41:23,400 else on the train because I didn't know anybody. 531 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:24,680 I didn't know the language. 532 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,120 I couldn't understand the announcements. 533 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,000 They were all in Swiss and French. 534 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,140 And I knew I was kind of in trouble here. 535 00:41:35,140 --> 00:41:39,120 But then she fell asleep during the night and it was cold and it was raining. 536 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:45,980 The train window was full of raindrops just streaming down the window. 537 00:41:45,980 --> 00:41:50,960 And she had a little shawl over her leg and it fell on the floor. 538 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,760 And so I picked it up and I just lightly tried to put it back over her. 539 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,280 And of course she jumped and it woke her up. 540 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:01,480 But when she realized what I was doing, that seemed to break the ice. 541 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:08,400 And then she opened up this satchel she had of bread and cheese and all kinds of stuff. 542 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:12,680 And then she became very friendly. 543 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,160 And that eased the moment a lot. 544 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:21,440 Because I still had a cast on and my arm was in a sling. 545 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:25,620 So then she read the tickets because I kept hearing these announcements and I would look 546 00:42:25,620 --> 00:42:27,680 at the tickets and I'd just shake my head. 547 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:33,280 So then she took the tickets and she read them and she got a conductor to come who spoke 548 00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,920 English and they were explaining. 549 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,040 They were talking to themselves. 550 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:44,480 Anyway I ended up getting to Milan, going through the Alps at night, which was really 551 00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:46,160 cool. 552 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:51,000 And then I was in Milan and that train station I had to wait. 553 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:55,400 And it was a very dangerous train station as I found out. 554 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,640 I didn't know it ahead of time. 555 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:05,760 But I sat with my back against the wall, big open like a World War II train station, probably 556 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:11,800 20 tracks, a lot of strange people walking around, dark. 557 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:13,300 And I just kept my... 558 00:43:13,300 --> 00:43:14,400 All I had was a little... 559 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,680 Because I couldn't carry a backpack or a suitcase. 560 00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:21,840 I had just a little fanny pack for the whole summer. 561 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:27,440 And I just sat there and this guy came up to me and he started speaking to me. 562 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,000 He said, you're an American, aren't you? 563 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:31,000 I said, yes. 564 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:38,340 But I was wearing a Canadian flag on my backpack, on my little fanny pack because my father 565 00:43:38,340 --> 00:43:40,400 was Canadian. 566 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:42,840 And he said, you can't sit here. 567 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,520 He said, this is way too dangerous. 568 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:51,360 So then he took me to my train and he talked to a conductor and they let me sit on the 569 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,920 train for the last couple of hours and he sat across... 570 00:43:55,920 --> 00:44:00,040 They opened two doors across the train aisle and he sat in the other. 571 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,060 So he wasn't threatening. 572 00:44:02,060 --> 00:44:03,360 He kept his distance. 573 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:08,660 And then he told me that he had studied in Chicago and he was Italian. 574 00:44:08,660 --> 00:44:10,760 And I told him where I was going. 575 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:17,060 So then he made sure when the train started, he got off because he wasn't going to Assisi, 576 00:44:17,060 --> 00:44:21,000 but he explained it to the next conductor where I was going. 577 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:25,520 And when I finally got to Santa Maria del Angle, which is at the base of where Assisi 578 00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:34,760 is, like four or five people by this time got the story that this American college student 579 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:36,640 doesn't know what she's doing. 580 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:42,760 And they just started yelling at me when we pulled into Santa Maria del Angle because 581 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,600 I'm thinking I'm going to Assisi. 582 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:50,020 And then they just started pointing. 583 00:44:50,020 --> 00:44:51,820 So that's where I jumped off. 584 00:44:51,820 --> 00:44:56,600 And as soon as I got off the train, I took off my collar and I took my arm out of the 585 00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:57,600 sling. 586 00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:01,600 I put it in a waist basket right there. 587 00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:06,160 Like I said, it wasn't the smartest thing to do, but that's what I did. 588 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:07,560 Why? 589 00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,640 Why did I do it? 590 00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:14,040 I just knew I would be somehow healed. 591 00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,000 I was never healed physically, really. 592 00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,440 I still have pain. 593 00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,920 Matter of fact, I have a pain appointment this Wednesday coming up. 594 00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:31,440 But emotionally, interiorly, I was healed. 595 00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:36,560 I don't know if that makes any sense. 596 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,200 I never had to wear a sling anymore. 597 00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:46,680 I would say yes, I was mostly healed physically, but I was more healed in myself. 598 00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,720 My peeves. 599 00:45:49,720 --> 00:45:53,840 When I got to Assisi, I knew where I was. 600 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,640 I never needed a street map. 601 00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:58,680 I just kind of knew the town. 602 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:04,920 I was working in a bed and breakfast, if you want to think of it that way. 603 00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:09,360 But I couldn't really work because of my arm. 604 00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:13,880 And so the people, I don't want to name who they were, they were a little disappointed 605 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:18,240 in this summer help that they were supposed to be getting from America. 606 00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:20,200 And I really couldn't do. 607 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:22,440 They wanted me to peel potatoes and stuff like that. 608 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,520 Well, I couldn't use my right hand. 609 00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:29,800 So they made me the porter when the nuns would eat. 610 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:34,400 Then I was to answer the door at the guest house because I spoke English and a lot of 611 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:39,000 the guests were Americans and they didn't speak English that well. 612 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:40,340 So in that way it worked out. 613 00:46:40,340 --> 00:46:43,280 And that's when I met Father Murray. 614 00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:51,200 I was there answering the door one day and I opened the door and there's Murray. 615 00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:54,080 And I said, hey, I know you, you're Murray Bodo. 616 00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,120 And he said, well, how do you know me? 617 00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:58,740 And I said, I read your book. 618 00:46:58,740 --> 00:47:02,920 And I had written a couple of songs for that book and things like that. 619 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,640 And we just became fast friends. 620 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:12,120 And he was there with a group of Franciscans who were leading a pilgrimage. 621 00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:19,200 I was a Damien, Father Aaron and Father Murray had other, some of them were priests, some 622 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:24,400 of them were friars and there were a few other, there was a small group, maybe eight or nine 623 00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:31,520 people and they could see that I was pretty sick. 624 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,260 I was getting physically sick there. 625 00:47:34,260 --> 00:47:40,000 I wasn't allowed out of the guest house except to go to mass at five o'clock at night, run 626 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:45,520 down to the cathedral, which was all the way across, a seizing comeback. 627 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:51,240 And so they sort of adopted me into their pilgrimage group and they started to take 628 00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:54,360 me with them when they traveled. 629 00:47:54,360 --> 00:48:02,880 Oh, and you know, just all around, they took me to San Damiano's, they took me up to La 630 00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:03,880 Verna. 631 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:16,160 They, to the cartery, places I would have never been able to get to or get into, Cella 632 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:26,360 dei Cortona, which was interesting because they started calling me Brother Susie. 633 00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:31,840 And when we went to Cella dei Cortona, Father Damien, who was the leader of the group, Damien 634 00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:35,840 Isabella, he's in the Congo now. 635 00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:37,920 He could speak, I don't know how many languages. 636 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:44,720 I never heard anyone converse at a table in Swahili, French, Italian, English, all at 637 00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:45,920 one conversation. 638 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,680 He was, he is an amazing, amazing man. 639 00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:56,920 But when we got to Cella dei Cortona, he just told me to be quiet and stand close to him. 640 00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:01,040 So he put his hand on my shoulder and I was standing close to him. 641 00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:06,440 And he had his habit on, and he got in an argument with the, I guess, deporter there 642 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:12,360 because they were a little bit of a heated exchange. 643 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:17,520 And Damien kept saying, no, no, you know, Frate Susie, Frate Susie. 644 00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:20,720 And he just kind of kept pushing me and walking me with him. 645 00:49:20,720 --> 00:49:27,600 And all of a sudden I was in Francis' cell, which I'm sure no woman had been in in seven, 646 00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:29,760 eight hundred years, you know. 647 00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:35,280 And those kind of experiences, you know, started to happen. 648 00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:36,960 And then. 649 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:38,480 Yeah. 650 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,000 Can we go back real quick? 651 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:49,480 For a lot of people listening, they're going to be wondering why in the world would a college 652 00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:59,580 student who's in the middle of healing from a really serious injury, who just lost her 653 00:49:59,580 --> 00:50:06,760 father not long before, who just picked up this book, Journey in the Dream, not too long 654 00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:09,160 before as well. 655 00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:15,480 Why in the world would she try to even try to go to a CC with a hundred dollars in her 656 00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:16,640 pocket? 657 00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:21,280 Like what was it about that book or the call of the Franciscan message? 658 00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:25,380 Or maybe it's maybe it's some other kind of gravitational pull. 659 00:50:25,380 --> 00:50:32,520 Like what was it that got you on that very what most people would consider a crazy journey? 660 00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:34,560 It was crazy. 661 00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:36,520 All right. 662 00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:38,720 And I was called crazy many times. 663 00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:49,320 But I didn't know that Francis had been kept in a subterranean cell and that there was 664 00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:56,000 a part of his life where he kind of lost it too, and his parents were upset with him and 665 00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:58,160 he had struggled with all that. 666 00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,880 You know, you always see St. Francis with the birds on his shoulder and he's out in 667 00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:03,320 a garden. 668 00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:10,360 And you know, I didn't know that he had gone through all of that personal struggle inside. 669 00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:13,800 And I thought, I can talk to him. 670 00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,400 No, I want to I can talk to him. 671 00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:19,200 I know I will get some answers. 672 00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,800 I had to know why. 673 00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:27,880 I just had to get some answers and I knew somehow I just knew. 674 00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:32,660 And in Murray's book was where I read those first stories. 675 00:51:32,660 --> 00:51:38,680 You know, that whole Francis the journey and the dream is all about that the journey and 676 00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:40,440 then the dream, you know. 677 00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:48,400 And so I was like, OK, I'm going on that journey and I need the answers for my dream because 678 00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:55,280 I the turmoil inside of me had to be home. 679 00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:57,600 And it was when I was in Assisi. 680 00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:59,640 Yeah, that's what I was wondering. 681 00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:08,640 Do you feel like you got your answer or what was it that you received in Assisi on that 682 00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:13,280 first pilgrimage there that kind of propelled you forward in your life with everything that 683 00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:16,040 you were dealing with at that time? 684 00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:21,360 Validation, if that makes any sense. 685 00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:28,200 I suddenly felt when I was there that it was I was OK. 686 00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,320 It was OK to be me. 687 00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:33,120 It was. 688 00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:40,020 I was it was all right to be able to talk to Francis in the way I was. 689 00:52:40,020 --> 00:52:44,560 I would go to San Damiano's and I would just sit there in silence. 690 00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:48,800 And but I felt completely joyful and peaceful. 691 00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:54,760 I'd look at the Sunday on San Damiano crucifix and it. 692 00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,880 I just felt like I. 693 00:52:57,880 --> 00:52:58,880 I was all right. 694 00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:03,320 I wasn't some mixed up troubled nutty college student. 695 00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:07,120 It was OK to have all these issues. 696 00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:09,800 And of course, I wrote a lot when I was there. 697 00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:12,240 I kept a journal. 698 00:53:12,240 --> 00:53:17,140 I just melded into that whole Franciscan journey. 699 00:53:17,140 --> 00:53:23,240 It was like every step of the way, I started to realize that I was meeting these angels, 700 00:53:23,240 --> 00:53:25,920 this people from the people from the other side. 701 00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:28,680 I don't mean it like that, but. 702 00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:31,080 I was not alone. 703 00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:38,760 Someone was always like the woman on the train, the priest in Luxembourg. 704 00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:45,200 Father Murray saw Father Damien that all along the journey, there were people that I didn't 705 00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:49,960 even know coming in to. 706 00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:54,920 Be with me and walk with me and let me know that it was all OK. 707 00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:56,280 If that makes any sense. 708 00:53:56,280 --> 00:54:03,480 And of course, Francis, I would just sit at his house. 709 00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:10,480 I would usually go in the evening down by where he his childhood home was. 710 00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:15,320 And I'd go to the Basilica and sit down by his tomb. 711 00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:17,040 And Lady Jacobos tomb. 712 00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:21,080 I was just being in a seedy. 713 00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:26,120 And then I left the guest house where I was. 714 00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:28,680 And I was the Francis. 715 00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:36,600 Father Damien and Father Murray moved me over, got me into another situation where I was 716 00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:45,680 part of this fully Italian house where the Bishop of Assisi lived and Donaldo Brunacci, 717 00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:49,480 who was in the Assisi Underground, the movie, the Assisi Underground. 718 00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:55,880 He was one of the people that helped during the Nazi occupation. 719 00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:57,200 Very famous man. 720 00:54:57,200 --> 00:55:05,760 But anyway, then again, I was in a situation where they just accepted me into their family 721 00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:06,760 and I ate. 722 00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:12,640 I didn't know half of what they were saying, but none of them spoke English, but they'd 723 00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:15,440 play cards with me at night and they'd all laugh. 724 00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,880 It was just a joyous time. 725 00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:24,960 And Donaldo would take me up on the mountain with his dog and he took me to some of Francis's 726 00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:30,160 other caves other than up at the Carthaginian. 727 00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:37,840 And the Bishop would ask me the same question you asked me, what on earth are you doing? 728 00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:41,480 No, he did. 729 00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:43,760 Why are you here? 730 00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:46,840 What are you looking for? 731 00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:53,760 Yeah, it's very interesting to me hearing your journey, Susan, and thank you again for 732 00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:54,760 sharing it. 733 00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:59,800 I think it's going to be very relatable to a lot of people listening. 734 00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:07,240 But it's interesting to me how many moments on the spiritual journey you were searching 735 00:56:07,240 --> 00:56:11,760 for that feeling that you explained at the very beginning. 736 00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:14,680 You just didn't want to feel alone anymore. 737 00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:21,320 And time and time again, someone shows up, like the person on the train, Father Murray. 738 00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:24,680 I mean, that in itself is crazy. 739 00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:29,080 You read this book that has a huge impact on your life. 740 00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:36,440 And then you go halfway around the world with $100 in your pocket. 741 00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:40,420 And a kind person tells you in the train station, you can't be here. 742 00:56:40,420 --> 00:56:42,560 This is too dangerous. 743 00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:47,920 You end up in a CC meeting Father Murray, this person who's impacted you through his 744 00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:49,880 words on a page. 745 00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:57,600 And I mean, it's just like time and time again, you're reminded that however often you may 746 00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:01,000 feel alone, you're not alone. 747 00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:02,000 Yes. 748 00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:03,000 Yes. 749 00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:06,640 Now I'm not... 750 00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:13,680 I think when you're younger, that fearlessness, and as a new Christian, if you want to think 751 00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:20,440 of it that way, as you get older and life kind of piles more things on, I'm probably 752 00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:29,760 not as brave, but I still have that sense that I'm not alone. 753 00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:37,000 I get more afraid now, I think just because I'm older, more vulnerable, and I still try 754 00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:38,000 to... 755 00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:40,880 That's what I always hold on to, that I'm not alone. 756 00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:46,320 All I have to do is wait and someone or something will help me. 757 00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:51,240 I got lost once in Bath, England. 758 00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:57,400 I wanted to go to the Roman bath and I was walking back and I got incredibly lost and 759 00:57:57,400 --> 00:57:59,760 no one was around. 760 00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:05,120 And I really didn't know how to get back to where I was staying. 761 00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:10,200 And I don't know why I was in a section where there were no people, there was no one on 762 00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:11,680 the streets, none of... 763 00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:20,040 And all of a sudden around the corner just comes this woman and she asked me, are you 764 00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:23,080 lost? 765 00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:26,080 She didn't know I was lost. 766 00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:29,600 And then she walked me a couple blocks and got me on the right path. 767 00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:37,240 And the same thing happened when I spoke at the Vatican. 768 00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:38,800 I was lost in a different way. 769 00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:43,320 Of course, it's very intimidating to speak at the Vatican. 770 00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:45,560 And I didn't know what to talk about. 771 00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:49,440 I had two different presentations. 772 00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:54,120 One was more academic because by this point I had gotten my doctorate and the other one 773 00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:56,640 was more personal. 774 00:58:56,640 --> 00:59:03,460 And I was coming down and I did not know which one I was going to say or present. 775 00:59:03,460 --> 00:59:08,600 And until I'm coming down the steps to this room, there was a hundred people from all 776 00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:12,800 over the world in this lecture hall. 777 00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:16,080 And I still don't know what I'm going to say. 778 00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:22,040 And this man, this priest just came over to me and there's all kinds of people swarming 779 00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:25,840 around and I don't know who he was. 780 00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:27,400 I never saw him before. 781 00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:29,040 I never saw him since. 782 00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:35,320 He just walked up to me, gave me a big hug and said, give them the one of your personal 783 00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:36,320 journey. 784 00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:38,360 That's the one they need to hear. 785 00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:45,040 And he just kind of put me back straight in my eyes, smiled and walked into the crowd. 786 00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:46,420 I mean, I don't know. 787 00:59:46,420 --> 00:59:48,440 So that's the one I gave. 788 00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:49,440 Yeah. 789 00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:53,040 What would you say to someone listening? 790 00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:57,400 I think a lot of people feel alone today. 791 00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:00,080 What would you say to them? 792 01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:05,240 You've kind of relived this really important part of your own spiritual journey in this 793 01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:07,320 conversation. 794 01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:14,240 What kind of, I'm not a fan of the word advice, but what would you, if they were open to hearing 795 01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:18,880 what you have to say, what would you say? 796 01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:25,240 That's a tough one because I think there are a lot of people alone today. 797 01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:30,840 I know when Mother Teresa came to Cincinnati, one of the friars there asked her to come 798 01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:39,960 and she did come and I was there taking pictures because I used to work as a photo journalist. 799 01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:47,720 She said that she had, of all the countries of the world, the country she felt the most 800 01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:52,120 loneliness in was the United States. 801 01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:57,960 And that really struck me because I think there are so many people, including myself, 802 01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:01,640 you end up alone or they end up in hospice. 803 01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:05,960 I'm talking now, I'll go straight to the elderly because I just took care of my mom for the 804 01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:08,720 last seven years of her life. 805 01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:13,640 And she kept asking this question, where is everybody? 806 01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:19,700 And it haunted me too because is that what she kept experiencing in her mind? 807 01:01:19,700 --> 01:01:20,700 Where is everybody? 808 01:01:20,700 --> 01:01:26,440 She was one of 10 children and even she felt that way. 809 01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:38,320 But I would hope that people who feel alone can find some kind of spiritual solace and 810 01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:46,240 if that's not enough, and it isn't for some people, I don't think they need the physical 811 01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:50,280 solace too. 812 01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:57,480 Only if I don't have an animal around me, I feel even more alone. 813 01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:00,800 It's not like I feel incredibly fine. 814 01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:03,920 I'm not alone. 815 01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:06,460 It's more like I know there's something there. 816 01:02:06,460 --> 01:02:12,960 I never feel like that is absent, but I don't always feel totally attached, if you know 817 01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:13,960 what I mean. 818 01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:22,000 And trying on a daily basis to keep that attachment is something we can all do if we meditate. 819 01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:29,280 But joining a group, a prayer group, I don't know. 820 01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:30,320 It's a great question. 821 01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:32,160 I don't think I've answered it very well. 822 01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:38,760 It's an answer that I still search for sometimes. 823 01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:39,760 Hard question. 824 01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:46,000 As you were talking, I thought of one of my favorite philosophers, a guy named Peter Rollins, 825 01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:49,560 Irish guy. 826 01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:55,120 He does kind of a play on words with the words all one. 827 01:02:55,120 --> 01:03:02,880 He says you can't spell all one without alone. 828 01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:05,360 You could interpret that all kinds of different ways. 829 01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:15,800 But for me personally, it makes me think about how it's almost as if emptiness and oneness 830 01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:18,480 both collide somewhere. 831 01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:25,560 You know, like it is terrifying and is out of control or disoriented or dizzy as I sometimes 832 01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:35,080 feel when I'm overwhelmed with that feeling of aloneness that maybe if I'm open to it, 833 01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:37,800 there's an all oneness there as well. 834 01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:40,040 You know what I'm saying? 835 01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:41,040 I think I do. 836 01:03:41,040 --> 01:03:42,040 I do. 837 01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:43,560 I mean, I can understand what you're saying. 838 01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:45,040 And I love the phrase. 839 01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:48,400 I'll have to think about that one myself. 840 01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:53,820 But I know that the darkness wants us to feel alone. 841 01:03:53,820 --> 01:03:56,480 They want us to feel isolated. 842 01:03:56,480 --> 01:04:01,080 That's kind of their goal. 843 01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:11,040 And so we have to try to stay connected to friends, to people, to animals, to I'm not 844 01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:16,420 sure if you know, whatever is happening in people's churches, but I'm not necessarily 845 01:04:16,420 --> 01:04:20,960 going down that route, but make the effort. 846 01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:23,520 I text people my friends all the time. 847 01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:25,640 I'm always saying, Hi, how are you? 848 01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:29,200 And I've had some members of my family or friends. 849 01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:33,960 I take a lot of pictures at the beach in the morning of whatever I see and then I'll send 850 01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:35,920 them to different friends. 851 01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:38,240 And then I get a response from them. 852 01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:43,720 And I just know it's a way that they appreciate the picture. 853 01:04:43,720 --> 01:04:45,720 I appreciate hearing from them. 854 01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:48,120 It's a great way to start the day. 855 01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:49,280 And they don't feel alone. 856 01:04:49,280 --> 01:04:52,960 I'm usually sending them to other friends who I know live alone. 857 01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:59,880 There's a lot of women who live alone, but I also have some male friends who are, they 858 01:04:59,880 --> 01:05:03,320 have all the money they could ever want, but they're alone. 859 01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:07,360 They never ended up getting married or having families. 860 01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:13,760 And then I know some people who have had families who still feel alone sometimes because the 861 01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:16,280 families get fragmented. 862 01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:25,600 I think there has to be an effort from your side to connect and wait and hope. 863 01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:29,160 Like I said about the woman who just walked around the corner, knowing that there will 864 01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:35,840 be that touch somehow, you have to have that faith that it's there. 865 01:05:35,840 --> 01:05:38,640 You haven't gotten to it yet, maybe, but it's there. 866 01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:43,320 I also try to segment my life into a day. 867 01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:46,880 It's just today I have to live through. 868 01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:52,080 Somewhere today, I will feel that touch. 869 01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:53,080 I know it. 870 01:05:53,080 --> 01:05:55,280 I have to wait for it. 871 01:05:55,280 --> 01:05:59,780 Yeah, that's beautiful, Susan. 872 01:05:59,780 --> 01:06:00,780 Thank you. 873 01:06:00,780 --> 01:06:01,960 Thanks for sharing your story. 874 01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:10,660 I find, and I found your writing to be really beautiful and inspiring, but just hearing 875 01:06:10,660 --> 01:06:18,480 your story, I mean, such a, your courage to go on that journey. 876 01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:25,760 And it's what you just said, your openness to waiting through the discomfort, through 877 01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:32,360 these times where people or forces or experiences showed up for you in a unique way. 878 01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:34,480 Yeah, I find all of that really inspiring. 879 01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:39,360 So I have one question left if you don't mind. 880 01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:44,760 You just shared with us your journey to meeting Father Murray for the first time and everything 881 01:06:44,760 --> 01:06:47,720 that took you to Assisi for the first time. 882 01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:53,560 Here's your book that you did decades later with Father Murray. 883 01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:56,760 What's it like for you to reflect upon that? 884 01:06:56,760 --> 01:07:03,560 This man who welcomed you in at this very interesting time in your life, to say the 885 01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:07,400 least, now you're doing a book with him. 886 01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:08,680 What's that like for you? 887 01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:12,320 What kind of stirs within your heart as I say that? 888 01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:20,200 Well, I always tell people that you can't, you might not be able to see your guardian 889 01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:22,520 angel, but I can see mine. 890 01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:25,000 I know it's Murray Bodo. 891 01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:31,120 I believe, I believe that we've been friends since the moment we met. 892 01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:33,400 He lives in Cincinnati. 893 01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:41,760 I'm in Florida, but we've always been close in a spiritual sense. 894 01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:43,200 He has a beautiful voice. 895 01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:50,240 I didn't know if you've ever heard him sing, but when I first was recording songs, we made 896 01:07:50,240 --> 01:08:01,240 those cassette tapes together and he would sing some of the songs on the cassette tapes. 897 01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:08,280 To look back on the life that we had together, if you want to think of it that way, spiritually 898 01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:14,320 and as writers, I mean, he has a PhD in comparative literature. 899 01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:18,800 Mine is in kinesiology and sport history. 900 01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:26,960 Very different paths, but I look at sport history and the beauty of the body as creaturehood. 901 01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:33,680 It always goes back to my association with being a creature and that Franciscan charism 902 01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:42,540 of Francis and the handedness and footedness and being part of God's creation. 903 01:08:42,540 --> 01:08:49,080 Murray and I have always related on, and when I would have a question about Francis, I would 904 01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:53,280 go to Father Murray and ask him, he's a walking encyclopedia. 905 01:08:53,280 --> 01:09:00,760 To look back on writing the book, he wanted to look back on his journey over his lifetime. 906 01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:04,520 He's 87 now. 907 01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:10,160 He asked me if I would look back because he knows the steps in my journey. 908 01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:22,520 Would you look back, he asked me over 47 years when you first met Francis as a college student. 909 01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:23,800 I said, sure, are you kidding? 910 01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:24,800 I'd be happy to. 911 01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:34,720 It's an honor to ever be able to do anything with Murray. 912 01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:36,200 He's like pure water. 913 01:09:36,200 --> 01:09:43,120 I don't know if that makes you look in his eyes and his eyes are clear. 914 01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:46,720 He's just so wise and funny. 915 01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:53,240 I felt like clear water is the best description for Father Murray. 916 01:09:53,240 --> 01:09:54,240 I think he- 917 01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:55,240 That really is. 918 01:09:55,240 --> 01:09:58,120 That's the best description I've heard too. 919 01:09:58,120 --> 01:09:59,120 That's great. 920 01:09:59,120 --> 01:10:00,120 Yeah. 921 01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:01,120 Well, thank you, Susan. 922 01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:02,360 Yeah, this has been a real joy. 923 01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:07,920 I wanted to ask you about sport and spirituality, but maybe we'll save that for another podcast. 924 01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:15,600 I think this was hearing about your own journey into Franciscan spirituality and through all 925 01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:23,120 these different moments in your life where the aloneness, your openness in the aloneness 926 01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:28,640 to being comforted in some way, I think it's going to be really relatable and inspiring 927 01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:29,640 to people listening. 928 01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:32,080 So thanks for coming on the podcast. 929 01:10:32,080 --> 01:10:37,920 Thank you, Stephen. 930 01:10:37,920 --> 01:10:41,720 Once again, that was Susan Saint Singh. 931 01:10:41,720 --> 01:10:46,120 Susan's new book, God's Love Song with Father Murray Bodo is available in the Franciscan 932 01:10:46,120 --> 01:10:51,080 media store at shop.franciscanmedia.org. 933 01:10:51,080 --> 01:10:55,680 Huge thanks to our sponsor, the Franciscan School of Theology, and to Susan for joining 934 01:10:55,680 --> 01:10:57,800 us on Off the Page. 935 01:10:57,800 --> 01:11:03,240 Hearing her story and wisdom is truly such a gift to me, and I hope it was to you as 936 01:11:03,240 --> 01:11:04,320 well. 937 01:11:04,320 --> 01:11:09,920 Thank you as always to you, our listeners, for tuning in and supporting this podcast. 938 01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:14,560 If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a review or sharing it with your friends 939 01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:15,560 or family. 940 01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:21,940 And lastly, thanks to Cyprian Concilio for providing the music for this episode. 941 01:11:21,940 --> 01:11:24,720 This is Stephen Copeland signing off. 942 01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:27,720 Peace and all good. 943 01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:40,680 I will lead you into the desert with me and tenderly speak to your heart.