1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:15,160
Welcome to the Off the Page Podcast from Franciscan Media, a podcast featuring Franciscan conversations

2
00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,040
with authors, artists, and educators.

3
00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:22,440
I'm thrilled to share with you this special episode in celebration of the feast day of

4
00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,320
St. Francis of Assisi on October 4th.

5
00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:33,520
Today's guest is the president of the Franciscan School of Theology, Father Garrett Galvin.

6
00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:39,000
Father Garrett Galvin, OFM, graduated from the University of California Irvine and joined

7
00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,040
the Franciscan Friars in 1992.

8
00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:47,340
He began teaching full-time at the Franciscan School of Theology in 2009.

9
00:00:47,340 --> 00:00:53,800
He published his first book, Egypt as a Place of Refuge, in 2011, and David's successor,

10
00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:58,440
Kingship in the Old Testament, was published in 2016.

11
00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:03,200
Father Garrett has several wonderful lectures available for free on the Franciscan School

12
00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:05,400
of Theology's YouTube channel.

13
00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:10,000
I highly recommend checking out the channel if you're interested in theology or pursuing

14
00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,000
a degree in Franciscan studies.

15
00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:17,000
I also encourage you to visit our online store if you're interested in learning more about

16
00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,840
St. Francis or Franciscan spirituality.

17
00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:27,240
Visit shop.franciscanmedia.org and click on St. Francis in the top banner to explore our

18
00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,320
St. Francis collection.

19
00:01:29,320 --> 00:01:34,400
There you'll find several wonderful Franciscan classics by authors like Elia Delio, Murray

20
00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:39,960
Bodo, and Richard Rohr, and a number of other resources exploring the Pavarello's life,

21
00:01:39,960 --> 00:01:42,880
legacy, and spirituality.

22
00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:49,080
One thing I really enjoyed about today's conversation is the concrete way that Father Garrett talks

23
00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:51,800
about his faith and spirituality.

24
00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:53,880
He's a seasoned professor.

25
00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:55,120
He's an academic.

26
00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,080
He specializes in Old Testament studies.

27
00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,160
He's an Old Testament scholar.

28
00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:06,080
But like a lot of Franciscans, he has the unique ability in this conversation to not

29
00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:11,480
get too stuck in the head as I sometimes can and consistently reconnects to the heart.

30
00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:15,980
In this conversation, we talked about what Franciscan renewal might look like today on

31
00:02:15,980 --> 00:02:20,640
an individual and communal level, as well as how St. Francis lived out the gospel as

32
00:02:20,640 --> 00:02:22,960
he followed in the footsteps of Jesus.

33
00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,600
I really hope you enjoy this episode.

34
00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,920
So here is Father Garrett Galvin.

35
00:02:28,920 --> 00:02:34,240
Well, Father Garrett, thank you so much for joining the Off the Page podcast.

36
00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:36,440
I really appreciate you being here.

37
00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:38,580
Wonderful to be here.

38
00:02:38,580 --> 00:02:45,000
So this episode, it will air on or around October 4th, the feast day of St. Francis.

39
00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:51,600
So to start off, I was just curious, can you discuss the significance of this day and what

40
00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,200
it means to you on a personal level?

41
00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:55,200
Sure.

42
00:02:55,200 --> 00:03:00,160
You know, we all kind of come to the Franciscans in different ways.

43
00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:06,800
And and I just kind of got interested in St. Francis, you know, when I was in my early

44
00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:13,120
20s and I read a fair bit about him and tried to learn about him and things like that.

45
00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:18,160
So so I actually wrote to the Franciscan School of Theology and said, you know, that I want

46
00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:20,000
to be a Franciscan.

47
00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:24,640
And they kind of moved that to the appropriate people in our vocations department.

48
00:03:24,640 --> 00:03:27,220
And I kind of heard back from them.

49
00:03:27,220 --> 00:03:29,520
And they said, well, why don't you come up for a visit?

50
00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:33,600
And so I was living in Southern California at the time and I went up to Berkeley and

51
00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,640
Oakland and and then they asked me, have you ever met a Franciscan?

52
00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:39,640
And I said, no, I've never met a Franciscan.

53
00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:41,200
You know, I just know about St. Francis.

54
00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,720
So, well, you need to meet some Franciscans.

55
00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:48,960
And so so I got to meet the friars in in lots of different ways.

56
00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:53,760
I saw some of our kind of urban parishes that we were working at.

57
00:03:53,760 --> 00:04:01,480
I was able to visit a soup kitchen, really a very big social service agency.

58
00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:06,920
I saw us working in a suburban parish and then got to learn about the friars in lots

59
00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:07,920
of different ways.

60
00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:13,560
Ultimately, I went to Wymus in Sonora, Mexico, before I joined the friars and worked down

61
00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,960
there in all types of capacities.

62
00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:22,600
So it was just great to kind of meet the friars and see that we were aligned and kind of what

63
00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,040
we were interested in doing.

64
00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:26,120
Yeah.

65
00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:30,880
What was it when you made that call to FST and said, you know, I'm really interested

66
00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:32,260
in taking the next step.

67
00:04:32,260 --> 00:04:37,800
What was it exactly about the Franciscan message that led to you making that call?

68
00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:43,920
It was really about Francis's commitment to peace and reconciliation.

69
00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:49,400
I just wanted to kind of really throw my hat in with that.

70
00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:51,880
You know, there's all different types of things going on.

71
00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,840
And this was back in 92 in our world.

72
00:04:55,840 --> 00:04:58,080
And I just wanted to be about peace.

73
00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:01,520
And I was just trying to think, what's the most constructive way to do that?

74
00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:08,200
And it just seemed to me the Franciscans are also about peace and wanting to recognize

75
00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:14,920
the goodness in everyone and make a kind of constructive steps towards goodness rather

76
00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:19,560
than towards violence or towards alienation.

77
00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:20,800
Yeah.

78
00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:22,320
Can you take us back to that time?

79
00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:27,680
Were you beginning to sense some certain things in our culture that were kind of pivoting

80
00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:29,280
away from peace?

81
00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:32,720
Or what was it that kind of led to this inner stirring on your end?

82
00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:33,720
Yeah.

83
00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,520
I mean, it was really the first Persian Gulf War.

84
00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,160
So that kind of started in 91.

85
00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:45,640
And that was really just kind of what made me think about what I want to do and who I

86
00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:46,640
want to be.

87
00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,240
And, you know, and I had thought about being a lawyer.

88
00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:54,580
I actually gone to law school for a little bit and just realized, you know, that I would

89
00:05:54,580 --> 00:05:57,640
probably be an ambulance chaser rather than a good lawyer.

90
00:05:57,640 --> 00:05:59,560
I love the book To Kill a Mockingbird.

91
00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:01,840
And I said, well, that's the type of lawyer I want to be.

92
00:06:01,840 --> 00:06:06,080
And in law school, I saw that wasn't going to be the type of lawyer that I would be.

93
00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:10,960
And so I just could see the ideals that the Franciscans embraced.

94
00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:16,840
And I really wanted to be challenged to grow in those ideals.

95
00:06:16,840 --> 00:06:20,080
What was it like for you to meet your first Franciscan?

96
00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:21,360
Yeah.

97
00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:29,200
So it was a good experience, but it was a learning experience because you're meeting

98
00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:34,360
them on your vocational journey a lot of times and they have questions for you and they're

99
00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,480
trying to help you discern.

100
00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,560
And to tell you the truth, like I didn't like a lot of the things I was told to discern

101
00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:41,560
about.

102
00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:47,080
You know, I had a very idealistic vision.

103
00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:51,800
And so I needed to kind of just hear about some of their concerns and what it meant to

104
00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,640
actually become a Franciscan.

105
00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:59,720
And as friars, I think we're very good with family, but you do have to leave your family.

106
00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:05,160
And this is different than other vocations where you can kind of keep closer ties.

107
00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:11,160
And so for me, that was a challenge and led to, you know, some sleepless nights and things

108
00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:12,160
like that.

109
00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:19,080
But ultimately I needed to kind of understand the gravity of the decision and what it means

110
00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,720
to kind of join the Franciscan movement.

111
00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:28,520
And so those guys gave me some good questions and some tough things to think about and that

112
00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,320
really helped me.

113
00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:31,320
Yeah.

114
00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:41,760
I think a lot of people listening, Father Garrett also sense that same kind of craving

115
00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:48,760
for peace and maybe a frustration in our own culture or where we're at as a society and

116
00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:50,720
being able to find that peace.

117
00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:57,040
So this theme in particular, how did it speak to you the deeper you went into religious

118
00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:02,400
life and the more you learned about Franciscan spirituality and Franciscan theology?

119
00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:09,040
What I really enjoyed at the beginning of my vocation, even before I put on a habit,

120
00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:16,360
was that I got to spend a lot of time with people that were committed to the better parts

121
00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:17,360
of our world.

122
00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:21,600
You know, so like I couldn't have articulated at the time, but you know, ultimately I was

123
00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:26,520
working with nonprofits and I was working in the nonprofit sector.

124
00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:33,860
And so I just would come across lots of volunteers who were giving up their time for something

125
00:08:33,860 --> 00:08:38,320
that they were not going to get a financial reward.

126
00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:44,000
And so just kind of growing up normally in college and in working, financial rewards

127
00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,700
are important and we need those.

128
00:08:47,700 --> 00:08:54,160
But to see people that are decentered a little bit from that made a great impact on me.

129
00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:58,540
And so my big impression when I first came to the Franciscans was I got to spend a lot

130
00:08:58,540 --> 00:09:08,280
of time now with people who were really focused on the good and it just gave me a much better

131
00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:09,280
impression of the world.

132
00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:14,520
I think I was a little bit cynical before I came to the friars and I got to see people

133
00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:23,560
that were really willing to give as much as they could without demanding rewards in return.

134
00:09:23,560 --> 00:09:24,560
Yeah.

135
00:09:24,560 --> 00:09:30,200
Was it jarring at all for you to kind of be on this legal path, you know, and then all

136
00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,800
of a sudden you're entering religious life?

137
00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:40,760
Only a little bit because I think as I said, it was like the kill a mockingbird was my

138
00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:42,440
legal dream.

139
00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:47,880
And so at the time there was LA law going on and those types of sitcoms if people remember

140
00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:48,880
them.

141
00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:53,920
But I was very much focused on to kill a mockingbird.

142
00:09:53,920 --> 00:10:00,240
So there was great ideals in that novel, which I think and I found those a lot of my classmates

143
00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,480
too in law school.

144
00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:11,520
So I saw a lot of people that were really trying to pursue the ideals of a more just

145
00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:16,900
society and trying to help people maybe who've been left out of civil rights or left out

146
00:10:16,900 --> 00:10:20,440
of other rights that we all deserve.

147
00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,800
So I wouldn't say it was jarring.

148
00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:29,240
I just realized my path was better with the friars than it would have been in a law firm

149
00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:30,840
or something like that.

150
00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:31,840
Yeah.

151
00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:37,760
Yeah, so then going back to the feast day, you've given us a beautiful kind of encapsulation

152
00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:44,560
of your journey and you've been a Franciscan friar for over three decades now, correct?

153
00:10:44,560 --> 00:10:45,560
Yeah.

154
00:10:45,560 --> 00:10:50,520
So what does the, what rises up in your heart or in your mind when this feast day comes

155
00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:52,720
around each year?

156
00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:57,480
You know, I always just think a little bit about my journey.

157
00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:07,680
I think a little bit about how we try as Franciscans and I try personally to make the marginalized

158
00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:09,560
a greater part of my journey.

159
00:11:09,560 --> 00:11:15,200
And I think about failures that I've had and how I've learned from those.

160
00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:21,440
And probably the biggest failure I can think of was when I was first joining the friars,

161
00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:25,080
I was visiting my younger brother who was a student at UC Berkeley.

162
00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,480
And this was close to where the friars were at the time.

163
00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:33,280
And we were walking up a street, I think it was Bancroft Avenue in Berkeley.

164
00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:38,920
And I remember I was with a group of friends and there was kind of a young man who was

165
00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:45,700
getting ready to kind of bed down for the evening, you know, in just next to a store.

166
00:11:45,700 --> 00:11:49,600
And I caught his eye and he caught my eye.

167
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,220
And then he kind of jumped up and he was like, you can't judge me.

168
00:11:53,220 --> 00:11:54,920
You can't judge me.

169
00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:56,920
This was not a good Franciscan look.

170
00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:01,000
I was trying to really be a friar.

171
00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:07,720
And so I just started moving quick and kind of trying to brush it off.

172
00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,800
I didn't say anything to him or something like that, but he read my heart because I

173
00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,440
did judge him in my heart.

174
00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:18,220
And so then I just tried to pursue kind of working with that population a bit more.

175
00:12:18,220 --> 00:12:24,880
So a few years later I was back in Berkeley doing a master's and I had a chance to start

176
00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,080
to work in homeless shelters.

177
00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:29,800
So I worked for one year with men.

178
00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,680
I worked another year with women and children.

179
00:12:32,680 --> 00:12:35,760
And that really gave me a lot more insight.

180
00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:41,000
And I think that's our Franciscan call to, you know, to a certain extent, St. Francis

181
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,680
before his conversion rode around on a horse.

182
00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:48,920
He was a generous guy, fun loving, tossed money to the lepers.

183
00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:53,000
But after his conversion, he got off that horse and he met people eye to eye and he

184
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:57,040
saw that, you know, all of these people are made in the image and likeness of God.

185
00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:02,440
And that's really been a big part of my journey when I think about the feast day is just really

186
00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:07,200
learning about how all these people are in the image and likeness of God and making that

187
00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:08,200
real in my life.

188
00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,960
Yeah, no, thank you for sharing that.

189
00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:16,880
Yeah, there's it's such a relatable story.

190
00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:22,520
And at least for me, one of the things that keeps me coming back to the wisdom and the

191
00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:29,320
Franciscan tradition again and again is just how challenging it is.

192
00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:37,600
I read about Francis's response and in the way his conversion deepened in relationship

193
00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:44,360
with the other where, you know, at first it's being generous, like you said, but it's from

194
00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:51,920
atop his horse, you know, and then he's called to go more and more and more into authentic

195
00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:56,360
relationship with this person who's very different from him.

196
00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,960
Yeah, it's what about you?

197
00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:02,160
What keeps you coming back after three decades of religious life?

198
00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:06,120
What keeps you coming back to the wisdom of this tradition?

199
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:13,040
You know, there's just so many hidden gems within the Franciscan tradition and our tradition

200
00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:17,600
just keeps on kind of revealing different things to me.

201
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:22,040
And so to just think about something like the incarnation, you know, and I always tell

202
00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,640
people out here in California, do people like carne asada?

203
00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:28,800
And you know, that doesn't always work in the East Coast, but everyone here knows carne

204
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:33,400
asada, you know, it's kind of a Mexican dish kind of, but that means roasted flesh, you

205
00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,920
know, and that's C-A-R-N.

206
00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:41,000
And that's the key to the incarnation, the word made flesh.

207
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:47,480
And to just keep on thinking about God's gift to us in the word made flesh and how God always

208
00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,560
intended this gift for us.

209
00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:54,400
A lot of times, and a lot of other, you know, Christian and even Catholic traditions, we'll

210
00:14:54,400 --> 00:15:00,560
get that focused on sin and that the incarnation is a response to sin.

211
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:07,560
But as Franciscans, you know, we'll say, no, the incarnation is God's plan for us always.

212
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:11,600
And you know, that we're saved, you know, and we see this all the time, people walking

213
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,240
around in shirts, I'm saved by the blood of the cross.

214
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:18,600
And that's a true statement, but we're also saved by the life, death, and resurrection

215
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:19,600
of Jesus.

216
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:25,440
And that life is so important that Jesus did not come here to be slaughtered on a cross.

217
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,740
Jesus came here to form communities.

218
00:15:28,740 --> 00:15:34,100
And so for me to keep on kind of going back to that, to be inspired to form community,

219
00:15:34,100 --> 00:15:40,320
to know how hard it is to do that, to look in the mirror and see my failures in doing

220
00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:45,480
that, but to always try to kind of meet that challenge that everyone's made in the image

221
00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:47,360
and likeness of God.

222
00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:53,960
And we have this inherent desire to be part of community, but we have struggles with that.

223
00:15:53,960 --> 00:16:00,920
And so as friars, you know, we really celebrate fraternity or community as, you know, we're

224
00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:02,340
brothers to each other.

225
00:16:02,340 --> 00:16:05,100
We have brothers and sisters.

226
00:16:05,100 --> 00:16:11,240
And so just keep on leaning into that to me is the great challenge.

227
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,240
And that's what kind of keeps me coming back that I know I'm going to fail.

228
00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:18,280
But each day you get up and you start again.

229
00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,320
Yeah, I know.

230
00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:31,400
Theologically, that's a huge aspect that really gripped my heart was their positive, hopeful

231
00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:39,120
approach to not only in their cosmology, but the theology behind the incarnation itself.

232
00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:45,000
Whereas I kind of came from conservative evangelical world, for lack of a better term, and everything

233
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,860
was very sin centric.

234
00:16:47,860 --> 00:16:51,320
Everything was very, you know, formulaic.

235
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:55,100
This is what you have to do so that God isn't mad at you.

236
00:16:55,100 --> 00:17:01,840
And in fact, God was so mad that God sent Jesus to die on a cross to fulfill his wrath.

237
00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:06,800
And then to read the Franciscan approach to the incarnation.

238
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,200
In your words, what is the Franciscan approach to the incarnation?

239
00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:16,000
Yeah, I think the Franciscan approach is going to be very much kind of grounded both in the

240
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,120
gospel of Luke and in the gospel of John.

241
00:17:19,120 --> 00:17:25,160
I think one really important thing is to see how Jesus begins his ministry in Luke's gospel,

242
00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:31,480
which is radically different than in Matthew and Mark's gospel, where Jesus begins basically

243
00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,680
parroting John the Baptist conversion.

244
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,000
And there's always a place for conversion.

245
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:42,280
But our approach, I think, starts with, you know, recognizing that everyone's made in

246
00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:43,520
the image and likeness of God.

247
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,240
So this is what Jesus does at the beginning of Luke's gospel.

248
00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,640
He announces a year of favor of the Lord.

249
00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:56,960
He announces that captives will be set free and the disabled will become fully abled and

250
00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,320
the blind will see, the deaf will hear.

251
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:05,720
And so Jesus takes all these groups that, you know, unfortunately, even today oftentimes

252
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,360
get pushed to the sides that get marginalized.

253
00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:12,580
And he says, you know, these are God's blessings.

254
00:18:12,580 --> 00:18:17,480
And so I think we see that in Luke's gospel very clearly.

255
00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,240
Luke's parables articulate that.

256
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:24,280
You know, in John's gospel, we just keep on hearing about how everything started with

257
00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:25,520
goodness.

258
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:30,920
And so in many ways, John's gospel is a reflection of the first chapter of Genesis, where we

259
00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,720
hear the word good seven times.

260
00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:39,600
And so in Genesis, we just see this kind of combination of goodness, blessedness, and

261
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:41,040
order.

262
00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:46,880
And we can see Jesus is coming to restore all those things, not that they were completely

263
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:52,560
absent, but to, you know, I've got glasses on and when I don't have my glasses on, I

264
00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:53,800
can't see very clearly.

265
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:59,480
But when I put my glasses on, I like to think of that as the Franciscan lens, then I can

266
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:05,120
see, you know, the need for a focus on goodness, blessedness, and orderliness.

267
00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:06,120
It's there.

268
00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:12,080
But we need to be reminded of it, and Jesus came to restore that for us.

269
00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:16,720
Yeah, I know you specialize in the Old Testament.

270
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,760
You brought up Genesis one.

271
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,000
Can you go deeper into that passage?

272
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:25,280
Because I know that that gets interpreted many, many different ways.

273
00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:31,600
And I'd be curious what your approaches or perhaps what the Franciscan approaches to a

274
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,240
very fundamental passage like that.

275
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:35,240
Sure.

276
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:40,440
You know, I would say like the at the most basic, the Franciscan approach is going to

277
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:44,240
focus on Genesis one 26 through 28.

278
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,240
And so we'll hear Francis refer to that.

279
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,260
I think it's admonition and five.

280
00:19:50,260 --> 00:19:56,040
And so a lot of times the technical theological jargon will be mago dei, which means the image

281
00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:57,920
of God.

282
00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:03,360
And so what we hear in Genesis one 26 through 120 is that we are made in the image and likeness

283
00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:04,360
of God.

284
00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:08,680
We are human beings, male and female are made in God's image.

285
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,000
And so Francis recognizes this.

286
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:17,040
And I think this gives him and this is another little bit of jargon here, but put up with

287
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:18,040
this.

288
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,640
I am a professor after all.

289
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,120
There's a positive anthropology.

290
00:20:22,120 --> 00:20:25,720
So anthropology in the theological world isn't the social sciences.

291
00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,800
It means what does it mean to be a human being?

292
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:34,440
And we can think of that in a negative way and that that we're just focused completely

293
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:38,600
on sin, that we're fallen and things like that.

294
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:45,520
And we never deny sin as friars, but we say God began, you know, with goodness, blessedness

295
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:46,720
and orderliness.

296
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,880
And so we're made in that image.

297
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:54,240
So that I think is a fundamental Franciscan focus.

298
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,440
And then I would just take that kind of maybe one step further.

299
00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:02,920
And through modern biblical scholarship, we'll recognize that the first chapter of Genesis

300
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:07,320
was probably one of the last parts of Genesis to be written.

301
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:13,440
And I think that offers us an interpretive key or hermeneutical lens to read the rest

302
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:20,560
of Genesis and really the rest of the Bible, that at times we will be confronted by different

303
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:22,800
images of humanity in the Bible.

304
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:27,240
And I think we have to keep on coming back to that goodness, blessedness and orderliness,

305
00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,200
which is such an important part of Genesis one.

306
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:31,560
Yeah.

307
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:38,320
Are there any other themes, books, passages in the Old Testament that are particularly

308
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,760
important to you and your own spiritual journey and your own Franciscan spirituality?

309
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:43,760
Yeah.

310
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:48,200
I mean, the Psalms are very significant for me.

311
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:54,240
So I'll often think of Psalm eight and I think that's written almost in tandem with Genesis

312
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:55,240
one.

313
00:21:55,240 --> 00:22:00,640
Here we hear about humanity and it says that we're made little less than the gods.

314
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:05,760
And so again, we've got this kind of positive anthropology present.

315
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,060
I like to kind of think about the Psalms of flourishing.

316
00:22:09,060 --> 00:22:14,480
And I think flourishing for me is a very important biblical theme that is Franciscan.

317
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,040
So we see this in Psalm 18.

318
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:20,160
Sorry, excuse me, Psalm eight, Psalm 19.

319
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:27,240
I like to think a lot about Psalms 51 and 104 because we have the presence of the spirit

320
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,240
in there and the idea of renewal.

321
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,420
And I think renewal is a very important Franciscan theme.

322
00:22:33,420 --> 00:22:35,820
We kind of do this every day.

323
00:22:35,820 --> 00:22:41,240
We have to be committed to ongoing conversion to kind of learning from our mistakes.

324
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:46,960
And these Psalms, especially Psalm 51 and 104, invite us to renewal and tell us that

325
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,880
the Holy Spirit is an important part of that.

326
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,560
So the Psalms work out very well.

327
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,440
I mean, I could kind of go through almost every book of the Bible and point out different

328
00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,240
things.

329
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:04,760
We would also kind of look very carefully at the book of Micah.

330
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:10,560
I think it's Micah chapter six, verse eight that kind of invites us to walk humbly with

331
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,240
God.

332
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:18,960
The book of the prophet Isaiah was a great inspiration for St. Francis because we see

333
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,920
the suffering servant in that.

334
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:26,040
And so we know that, you know, and I think it continues today and we just heard, you

335
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,640
know, in church, if we were in church last couple of Sundays, this focus on what does

336
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:31,360
it mean to be great?

337
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:36,880
And oftentimes the disciples picking very conventional models of greatness.

338
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:44,480
But we see Christ picking a model of the suffering servant, of being someone who is committed

339
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:49,560
to the least in society and will oftentimes look the least.

340
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,840
And I think Francis was very inspired by that.

341
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,520
So those would be a few other touch points in the Old Testament.

342
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,080
Yeah, you can just go through the whole book if you want.

343
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:02,080
I'm tempted.

344
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:03,080
I'm tempted.

345
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:04,080
We have time.

346
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:05,080
You have three hours.

347
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:14,080
So I was wondering, you mentioned the positive anthropology in Franciscan spirituality.

348
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:21,240
What about some of the verses and passages that seem to indicate or that some people

349
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,280
use to justify more of a negative anthropology?

350
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:26,840
What would be your response?

351
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:33,360
Yeah, I, we always have to make choices when we read the Bible and there's lots of, you

352
00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:37,320
know, the Bible literally means kind of a collection of books.

353
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,960
So we've got 39 books in the Old Testament.

354
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,240
We've got 20 something in the New Testament.

355
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:49,800
And so if you kind of try to kind of pick out some negative verses, you will be able

356
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:51,280
to find them.

357
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,400
And so this is where I always feel like we have to kind of make a decision.

358
00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:03,000
What's going to be, you know, in Latin we say the abscissima verba, the most important

359
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,120
word for us.

360
00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:08,680
And then we kind of trace that.

361
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,880
That doesn't mean that we don't listen to all the other words.

362
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:16,800
And we all know, certainly I know in my life, there's times when I have to hear about sin.

363
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:23,080
There's times when I have to confront the difficulties in this world.

364
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,400
And those are, you know, as a human being, you don't get out of that.

365
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:27,840
And it's very hard to ignore it.

366
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,280
I certainly can't.

367
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:37,320
But if I'm going to, at the end of the day, you know, go to verses for inspiration, I

368
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:43,200
know I want to go to Psalm 8, you know, I know I want to go to kind of Psalm 104 to

369
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:44,880
Genesis 1.

370
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:51,080
And so at Mass, in the Liturgy of the Hours, we're confronted by almost all of the Bible.

371
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,080
And we should be confronted by that.

372
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:57,640
And we should never try to kind of soft pedal that.

373
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:02,440
But at the same time, if we want to be inspired, I think we know, for example, I'll go to Psalm

374
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:08,720
139, where we have this kind of vision of God that knows me better than I know myself.

375
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,360
And that for me is very comforting and inspiring.

376
00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:17,800
And that helps me to get up and kind of keep on trying to do the right thing.

377
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,720
Now, other people, you know, are inspired in other ways.

378
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:26,720
And there's no wrong way to be inspired when it comes to the Bible.

379
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,920
Just as Franciscans, I think, though, we keep on seeing where Francis is pointing us towards

380
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:37,440
human beings made in the image and likeness of God, to being able to work hands on in

381
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:43,200
very difficult situations, be that with lepers, be that with the sultan in Egypt.

382
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,200
What allowed him to do that?

383
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,840
How was he heard?

384
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:53,520
And so I think that's why it's important to recognize that there is a very good case for

385
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,120
a negative anthropology.

386
00:26:55,120 --> 00:26:57,800
I just don't think it's a Franciscan case.

387
00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:58,800
Yeah.

388
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:06,800
And I wanted to go back to one other thing you mentioned, the concept of renewal concept

389
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:07,800
feels too dry.

390
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,000
I mean, it's a movement.

391
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:16,000
And what does what does that look like, both on a personal and a communal level?

392
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:21,440
I mean, I know the famous story of Francis about, you know, Francis rebuild my house

393
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:22,800
for it has fallen into ruin.

394
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:30,840
I mean, this is something that is a participatory act in renewal in the rebuilding of the church.

395
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:36,520
Where does your mind go when it comes to the Franciscan approach to something as expansive

396
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:37,520
as renewal?

397
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:38,520
Yeah.

398
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,960
I think you kind of hit the nail on the head in terms of there's a personal dimension

399
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,880
to it and there's a communal dimension to it.

400
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:50,500
And so personally, you know, there's there's some days, weeks, months where you're feeling

401
00:27:50,500 --> 00:27:57,360
on top of things and you just kind of have to kind of keep things going the right direction.

402
00:27:57,360 --> 00:28:03,280
But then I think I certainly know personally, I'll hit a roadblock, I'll have a difficulty.

403
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:08,240
And so I know that I need to have a yearly retreat.

404
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:15,880
I need to have time to kind of pray, time to hike, time to do things that are going

405
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:17,520
to kind of help me.

406
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,960
And then I need to reflect, you know, every day on kind of what's right with the world

407
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,520
and where God's blessings are.

408
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,280
So I think that's where the spirit is.

409
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:34,700
And so so personally, those are all, I think, parts of renewal to, you know, like the word

410
00:28:34,700 --> 00:28:39,760
in Hebrew is Hodesh, and that is related to the cycle of the moon.

411
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,120
So we get a new moon every kind of 28 days.

412
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:47,240
And, and that's that sense of renewal that we find in nature.

413
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,240
And of course, as Franciscans, creation is very important to us.

414
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,360
We think of the Book of Scripture, St. Father's Church will talk about the Book of Scripture

415
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,320
and the Book of Nature.

416
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,800
So personally, we have those challenges.

417
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,440
And then societally, we have challenges for renewal.

418
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:07,400
I think it was very clear to us a couple years ago, you know, after COVID that we needed

419
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,440
kind of renewal in our society.

420
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:14,240
I mean, you would listen to podcasts or others just talk about, oh, I need to practice just

421
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:19,880
being around people again, because during lockdown, we lost some of our social skills.

422
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:25,880
And we can see this very clearly in our children and the struggles that they're having in school.

423
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,800
You know, I have a number of friends who are teachers, and they tell me some of the grades

424
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:34,800
are a year or two behind in their social skills, because these children weren't able to relate

425
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:36,200
as groups.

426
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:42,800
We can also see that, I think, in society at large, and we can see, you know, just the

427
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,400
lack of trust that is in our society.

428
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:51,680
And poll after poll kind of shows us that over the last 40 years, we've moved from about

429
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:56,960
50% of people really trusting their neighbor, feeling good about others to now it's I think

430
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,000
it's around 32%.

431
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:00,560
And that has to be renewed.

432
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,200
And how do we do that?

433
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,280
Those are bigger questions than I can probably answer.

434
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,160
But we can certainly see the need for that.

435
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:16,900
And the Franciscans, I think, do have an answer to that in terms of really kind of working

436
00:30:16,900 --> 00:30:24,760
with each other and kind of meeting each other eye to eye and trying to have a space for

437
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:30,320
dialogue that, you know, we're called very clearly in the Bible to love our enemy, you

438
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:35,920
know, if those that calls us to conversation to recognizing that they're made in the image

439
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:40,400
and likeness of God, and the importance of all that we're all in this together.

440
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:51,160
Yeah, there's something about at least for me, whenever you're able like Merton has the

441
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:57,000
great quote from, you know, his mystical experience at the corner of fourth and walnut that, I

442
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,480
mean, it's quite provocative, but he says that like, if we could just see each other

443
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,960
as we are, you know, the real problem would be is that we would fall down and worship

444
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:05,960
each other.

445
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:14,440
And the point is that such a positive anthropology, at least in my mind, it almost makes the space

446
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:24,120
for a dialogical dance for disagreement, for debate, for not defining someone by their

447
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,360
ideas and being able to say, Hey, you're, you're a child of God, and I'm a child of

448
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:29,360
God.

449
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:30,560
Am I on the right track there?

450
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:31,560
Absolutely.

451
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:35,060
You know, as Franciscans, a lot of times we'll just say a person is never a problem.

452
00:31:35,060 --> 00:31:43,120
And so we have to just kind of recognize that we might not get along with people, or we

453
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,960
might see people at their worst.

454
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:47,160
But that is not a problem.

455
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,160
That is a child of God.

456
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:56,440
And we have to try to kind of come to a better understanding of people that, you know, people

457
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,040
might have behaviors that we don't care for.

458
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:04,180
And usually there's a pretty good reason, you know, to for that.

459
00:32:04,180 --> 00:32:07,880
And so, so we try to kind of come to an understanding.

460
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:13,060
I forget who said it, but you know, to understand all is to forgive all.

461
00:32:13,060 --> 00:32:17,760
And so to just keep on kind of pushing that direction of empathy, to try to understand

462
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:23,840
people better, I think is something that we desperately need now.

463
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:25,120
Yeah.

464
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,720
In sticking with the theme of renewal, I was curious to get your perspective on this.

465
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:34,480
I mean, we kind of talked about it on a personal level and a societal level.

466
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:41,320
I'm curious on a church level, you know, we're navigating this age in which people are generally

467
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,880
turning their backs on religion and the churches of their youth.

468
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:53,440
So what would you say makes Franciscan theology unique and perhaps relatable to a culture

469
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:58,480
of people who seem to be spiritually searching a culture of people that it really does seem

470
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,720
that on some level they're craving renewal.

471
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:03,000
Yeah.

472
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:11,640
I think what's so important for us as Franciscans is being very concrete.

473
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:18,920
You know, we see St. Francis, you know, connected with lepers, connected with the Sultan in

474
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:20,360
Egypt.

475
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:30,800
And so I think we can often have kind of abstract ideas about others and abstract teachings.

476
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:36,520
And Franciscan, I think spirituality is going to try to break through that with love.

477
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:42,000
And so I've often heard, you know, for every Franciscan question, the only Franciscan

478
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,400
answer is love.

479
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:49,120
So I think trying to kind of really think about what that means, trying to see how we

480
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:56,160
can kind of lead with love and, you know, trying to see people I think as God sees them.

481
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,560
I think that can hopefully kind of help us.

482
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:05,840
I mean, we've all had experiences, I think, in our childhood or in our young adult years

483
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:11,920
or maybe even yesterday, negative experiences of religion.

484
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,360
And I think that's kind of part of our journey.

485
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:20,240
But that can also spur us on to think about what does a good experience look like.

486
00:34:20,240 --> 00:34:26,840
And so I think when we kind of think about the Franciscan charism, there's a wonderful

487
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,680
expression I've heard oftentimes about the Black church, they'll describe someone, you

488
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:35,840
know, he or she is so heavenly bound that they're no earthly good.

489
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:41,120
We want, as Franciscans, to really kind of focus on the concrete.

490
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,080
As I said again, you know, we are saved by the life, death, and resurrection.

491
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:46,760
And so what does that life mean?

492
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:52,760
That we're called to community, that every community is imperfect, and that if we're

493
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,000
in search of the perfect, we're going to be very frustrated.

494
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:02,560
But if we can kind of find a community that works well, I think that's what we're called

495
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:03,560
to.

496
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,680
And as Franciscans, I think we try to just kind of work with the people that come to

497
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:15,000
us to make sure that there's always a message that includes the marginalized and pushes

498
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:20,640
us, you know, a little bit maybe away from the gospel of prosperity that we can see in

499
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:25,440
our society, that you just turn on the TV and oftentimes you hear preached.

500
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:31,080
And more towards this kind of wisdom tradition that is, you know, at the heart of Franciscan

501
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:37,360
theology, where we're very much focused on living in the world, really not expecting

502
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,520
God to perform a lot of miracles in the here and now.

503
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,640
We don't see that in wisdom literature.

504
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:49,040
But knowing that God gave us a good head, that God gave us good people to work with,

505
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,000
and trying to kind of keep that from getting too idealistic.

506
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:57,840
Because whenever you work in community, there's going to be issues and problems.

507
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:02,720
And we just have to make sure that it's not abusive, it's not dysfunctional, and that

508
00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:06,000
it's the normal range of problems.

509
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:12,800
Yeah, maybe this goes, maybe this can be connected in some way to the wisdom tradition.

510
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,640
But the Hebrew word you mentioned for renewal, is it Hodesh?

511
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:17,640
Yeah.

512
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,920
Can you go deeper into that?

513
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,920
It's not very often I get to interview an Old Testament scholar.

514
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,720
So I would love for you to break that open for us if you don't mind.

515
00:36:25,720 --> 00:36:32,720
Well, I mean, the place that I would think about that the most is in Psalms 51 and 104.

516
00:36:32,720 --> 00:36:39,240
And so what's so important for me there is that Psalm 51, you know, this is a very famous

517
00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:46,160
Psalm that's often attributed to King David and basically David's conversion experience

518
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:51,440
after he kills Bathsheba's husband.

519
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,480
And he's kind of confronted by that.

520
00:36:53,480 --> 00:37:02,440
Now in Scripture, we see him confronted by that, you know, by one of the prophets.

521
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,840
But in Psalm 51, that's all just kind of the background.

522
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:10,400
And in Psalm 51, we see the presence of the Spirit.

523
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,520
So in Hebrew, we have got that word Ruah, which means it can mean spirit, it can mean

524
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,480
wind, it can mean breath.

525
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:23,760
But we generally, we like to see Holy Spirit as part of that.

526
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:30,120
So the Holy Spirit kind of comes at the personal level and is part of this kind of realization

527
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:36,660
that I did something wrong in the past and I need to I need renewal to be the person

528
00:37:36,660 --> 00:37:39,840
that God created me to be.

529
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,640
So we see that sense of it there in 51.

530
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:51,320
I think when we go to 104, we get a sense more of the societal dimensions and we see

531
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:59,560
a world in which creation is very good and creation can inspire us to have more trust

532
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:00,760
in God.

533
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:06,400
And I think renewal a lot of times is kind of leaving some of that cynicism behind us,

534
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:11,000
leaving some of that sin centeredness where maybe we're just focused on the sins of other

535
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:16,360
people and just kind of see, well, God made all these things good.

536
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,240
And Psalm 104 will kind of list things.

537
00:38:18,240 --> 00:38:22,280
A lot of times it's especially focused on the Son.

538
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:26,560
And of course, in the Franciscan tradition, we'll talk about brother Son and this is created

539
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:27,740
by God.

540
00:38:27,740 --> 00:38:32,520
So I think Psalm 104 just gets us focused on all the things that God created and what

541
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,560
they can do for us.

542
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:39,240
And when we start kind of thinking about that, I think that can lead to renewal, it can lead

543
00:38:39,240 --> 00:38:44,760
to more trust because certainly in my life, I can get so focused on the difficulties and

544
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:52,000
the problems and the short followings and budgets and all those kinds of things that

545
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:57,120
what renewal I think is ultimately one of the areas that's pointing us in is abundance.

546
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:01,120
And we'll see an abundance of goodness in this world.

547
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:08,040
If we jump to the first sign in John's gospel, we see at the lowest point, this couple is

548
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:14,080
going to be embarrassed at the wedding feast of Cana because they're not able to provide

549
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:19,400
hospitality and Mary kind of nudges Jesus and says, do something here.

550
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,000
Jesus says, it's not my time.

551
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,200
Mary keeps on pushing him.

552
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:24,880
And then we have this wonderful sign.

553
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:30,880
Of course, sign is John's language for miracle in which there's an abundance of very good

554
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:31,880
wine.

555
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:37,480
And so renewal just keeps on kind of reminding us of the abundance of God's goodness in the

556
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:42,040
world that we see in nature, that we see in each other.

557
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,520
And we just need to kind of be reminded of that.

558
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:49,240
I think that's what renewal is all about, being reminded of the good things and being

559
00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:54,520
know knowing that we can put the bad things behind us and start again.

560
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,680
Yeah, yeah.

561
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,960
Another Hebrew word there, ruach, right?

562
00:39:59,960 --> 00:40:01,680
You know, wind spirit.

563
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:08,400
I got me thinking of Francis as well in his own daily kind of discipline of renewal and

564
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,800
how he experienced God in creation.

565
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:19,720
Like you said, I mean, he, it seems to me that he saw the spirit permeating everything,

566
00:40:19,720 --> 00:40:22,360
even places that he least expected.

567
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,400
Can you go deeper into that?

568
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:29,820
Because I think there are some really personal kind of ramifications for giving renewal a

569
00:40:29,820 --> 00:40:38,120
chance each day on an individual level by finding or maybe daring to see God's spirit

570
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:43,200
in our everyday life, in creation, in people we least expect, et cetera.

571
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:49,240
Yeah, I had a great, the great fortune last year of visiting Rome and Assisi for the first

572
00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:50,240
time.

573
00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:54,240
So I was summoned to Rome for meetings with the order.

574
00:40:54,240 --> 00:40:57,080
And so I was like, well, I'm going to get to Assisi.

575
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,880
And I decided I'd take my retreat there.

576
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:06,640
And this was, you know, a really great experience and an eye opening experience because I, you

577
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:08,480
know, I'd never been there before.

578
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:13,620
And I had this kind of image of Assisi in my head and I'd seen lots of pictures of it.

579
00:41:13,620 --> 00:41:19,000
But what I kind of realized was, you know, even though we call Francis, Francis of Assisi,

580
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:24,200
he was always leaving Assisi to do the things that he was best known for.

581
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:30,760
And so, you know, I was staying with a group of sisters in Assisi.

582
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:35,680
But I wanted to go down and visit, you know, Rivo Torto, which is where Francis kind of

583
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:37,480
had his primitive community.

584
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,520
I wanted to go down and see the sites of the leper colonies.

585
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:47,080
I wanted to go to the Port Sioncula where Francis kind of received his initial vocation.

586
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:51,480
And I had to leave Assisi and go down there to have those experiences.

587
00:41:51,480 --> 00:42:00,000
Then, of course, I wanted to visit, I wanted to visit the Hermitage, we call it the carcery.

588
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:05,840
And I had to walk, you know, an hour kind of up the hill, a little bit of Mount Sibasio

589
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:06,840
for that.

590
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:13,160
And these places that I think are most acquainted with Francis were kind of outside the city.

591
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:20,040
And we can see going down to the leper colony, going down to form a community.

592
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:24,600
You know, probably this was, it would probably be too expensive to do it in the city.

593
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:29,360
This is where, you know, we get this very kind of tactile concrete sense of where Francis

594
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:31,320
found God.

595
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:37,480
Francis also spent an awful lot of time in prayer and, you know, we would say maybe on

596
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:43,000
retreat, but he would take, you know, a month or six weeks to really, you know, live the

597
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:44,480
contemplative life.

598
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:49,460
And I wasn't able to go to La Verna or some of the other places associated with Francis,

599
00:42:49,460 --> 00:42:54,360
but just going up to the carcery, going up to the Hermitage, you saw this connection

600
00:42:54,360 --> 00:43:00,640
with nature, this sense, you know, that you can just see God's goodness kind of very easily

601
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:01,640
in these places.

602
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:07,760
And you can get away from some of the distractions that were called to embrace.

603
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:13,200
But if we're always, you know, amidst those distractions, it can be hard.

604
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:14,640
And I think this is where the renewal is.

605
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:19,260
You go up to the carcery, you go up to the Hermitage, and then you can come back to where

606
00:43:19,260 --> 00:43:22,720
all those distractions are with a renewed mind.

607
00:43:22,720 --> 00:43:28,440
And you can go and spend time with the lepers or form communities.

608
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:33,160
And this is where I kind of saw Francis, you know, being centered in Assisi, but seemingly

609
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:37,560
always leaving Assisi to do the things that he's most remembered for.

610
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:39,640
Yeah, that's so true.

611
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:43,160
I never thought about that, but he really should be called like instead of Francis of

612
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,920
Assisi, like Francis of every other place around Assisi.

613
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:49,520
Right, right, absolutely.

614
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:55,360
And not just in the immediate kind of proximity, but I mean, La Verna is a hike.

615
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:56,840
Rome is a hike.

616
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:57,840
Yeah.

617
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,480
Yeah, that's very interesting.

618
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:07,160
One more kind of societal, you know, church question about renewal.

619
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,880
You're the president of the Franciscan School of Theology.

620
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:18,840
How do you see the world of academia and Franciscan theology?

621
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:25,960
How do you see that having an impact on renewal on a societal level and a church level?

622
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:31,440
Well, as Franciscans, you know, we're fortunate that we've spoken a lot about St. Francis,

623
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:36,480
but of course we've got St. Claire, and she gives us a spiritual tradition that kind of

624
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:40,840
builds on Francis, I think helping us think more about wisdom literature than St. Francis.

625
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:47,000
helping us think more about divinization, about, you know, how God is present within

626
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,640
our lives in a very profound way.

627
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:55,160
And then we can kind of turn to the doctors of the church in the Franciscan tradition,

628
00:44:55,160 --> 00:45:00,480
St. Anthony of Padua, but I would think particularly of St. Bonaventure.

629
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:05,480
And then some of our other great thinkers like Alexander of Hills or Duns Scotus or

630
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,440
Peter John of Levy.

631
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:11,680
All of these people are going to be very much focused, and this is an academic word, but

632
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:15,120
I'll say it praxis, P-R-A-X-I-S.

633
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:18,400
And this is kind of the opposite of theory.

634
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:24,800
And this is, you know, my experience of academia is that there's a lot of very practical people.

635
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:28,960
All these institutions have to be run and we have to run them well.

636
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:34,520
And so everyone involved in academia knows the importance of practicality.

637
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:40,480
I think the Franciscan tradition, you know, in some ways kind of canonizes that and says

638
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:45,220
that whatever solutions we're coming up with, we have to remember that those are solutions

639
00:45:45,220 --> 00:45:47,080
for human fulfillment.

640
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:49,520
Those are solutions for transformation.

641
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,380
Those are solutions for ongoing conversion.

642
00:45:52,380 --> 00:45:57,200
Those are solutions that help us love God and love our neighbor.

643
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:01,240
And so we need to be kind of dealing with those kind of very practical things.

644
00:46:01,240 --> 00:46:05,640
And you know, the Franciscan School of Theology is ultimately a school of ministry where we're

645
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:07,840
training people for ministry.

646
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,720
And you know, we live in a world right now where there's all these different kinds of

647
00:46:11,720 --> 00:46:19,000
ideas about, you know, how we're going to have renewal or how we're going to be Catholics.

648
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:25,040
And you kind of see lots of different models and you'll see lots of kind of solutions,

649
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:31,000
maybe wholesale solutions that involve radical change.

650
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,720
But I would say, you know, as a school of theology, a school of ministry, we're into

651
00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:37,040
kind of retail solutions.

652
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:43,480
And retail solutions means patience, charity, and humility, that we have to always be teaching

653
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:48,520
people how to work with those things, that we can have this kind of vision, this theory

654
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:52,600
for how we're going to be a better Catholic church.

655
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,040
But we need to have the skills to work with other people.

656
00:46:56,040 --> 00:47:01,680
And if we're not training people to be more patient, to be more humble, to be more charitable,

657
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:03,720
and we're going to kind of really struggle with that.

658
00:47:03,720 --> 00:47:08,120
So the Franciscan School of Theology, like many other schools of theology across the

659
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:12,080
country are kind of very focused on that vision.

660
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:19,800
Yeah, I love how you brought it back to the practical there because even when I was working

661
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:26,400
on my capstone thesis, I was spiraling into Bonaventure's Trinitarian Metaphysics.

662
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:34,340
And then as I was just dizzy and disoriented, I was thinking about Francis like prohibiting

663
00:47:34,340 --> 00:47:42,960
his brothers from owning books in this seeming allergy that he had to knowledge and learning.

664
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:50,360
And not learning in a lived sense, but learning in a knowledge book sense.

665
00:47:50,360 --> 00:48:01,480
And what would your response be to someone who pushes back and says, Francis would be,

666
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,480
he would not want a Franciscan School of Theology today?

667
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:09,560
Yeah, I think Francis was certainly trying to kind of make a point.

668
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:15,200
And what he really wanted was poverty with joy.

669
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:16,200
That's voluntary poverty.

670
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:19,640
We always have to recognize that poverty in and of itself is an evil.

671
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:24,920
But when someone chooses voluntary poverty, then he wants that to be found with joy.

672
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:29,400
I think Francis would be concerned, and I think we should all be concerned if we're

673
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:35,760
simply using academics or academia to kind of build up our status.

674
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:39,920
And so I'm sure he saw some of that, and that's certainly, I see some of that.

675
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:41,840
I see some of that in myself.

676
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:48,640
And so Francis was speaking with St. Anthony of Padua, a doctor of the church, and he said,

677
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,760
I don't have a problem with education.

678
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:53,760
It just has to be on the knees.

679
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:58,720
Meaning that we need to have piety, and by piety I mean devotion, that we're kind of

680
00:48:58,720 --> 00:49:03,180
committed to love, to charity, and to humility.

681
00:49:03,180 --> 00:49:09,860
And so those are the ways that I think Francis wanted people to go about.

682
00:49:09,860 --> 00:49:15,520
And it's very clear when you read Francis' writings that Francis read a lot, that Francis

683
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:16,520
prayed a lot.

684
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:23,340
You know, one of the beautiful things about the Franciscan tradition is just how grounded

685
00:49:23,340 --> 00:49:25,880
it is in sacred scripture.

686
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:29,480
And you aren't able to ground it in something that you don't know and something that you

687
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:31,320
haven't studied.

688
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:36,560
So it's clear to me Francis did that work, and he just wants to make sure that we're

689
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:41,320
not trying to kind of build ourselves up, but we're trying as best we can to kind of

690
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:44,220
build up a community.

691
00:49:44,220 --> 00:49:48,220
So there's always going to be a struggle and a challenge with that.

692
00:49:48,220 --> 00:49:55,960
But I really do believe that renewal is rooted in study, and Francis took that time away

693
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:58,080
to study scripture.

694
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:05,040
All of us are called to take time away from what we're doing in order to do it better.

695
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:09,920
And if we understand our Franciscan tradition, if we study our Franciscan tradition, we'll

696
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:14,880
see kind of 800 years of trying to kind of contextualize what we're doing.

697
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,240
So there's abuses.

698
00:50:18,240 --> 00:50:19,960
Francis saw those abuses.

699
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:23,400
At the end of the day, he just said we need more devotion.

700
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:29,640
So I think as long as we're trying to kind of lead with love, we'll hopefully get closer

701
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:30,640
to that reality.

702
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:31,640
Yeah, that's beautiful.

703
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:35,560
I think that's a great way to kind of situate it.

704
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:37,880
And it's curious what you think about this.

705
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:46,800
But Francis's approach to ideas, I think it's very relevant today because it seems like

706
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:54,760
culturally, societally, gosh, we are addicted to our ideas, and we are addicted to certainty.

707
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:59,240
And we're addicted to feeling like we're the ones who are right in pointing the finger

708
00:50:59,240 --> 00:51:00,680
at those who are wrong.

709
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:05,600
And humility got lost in there somewhere in our approach to ideas.

710
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:11,440
Any thoughts on that as it comes to renewal in our own culture and our society?

711
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:12,440
Yeah.

712
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:18,400
I think a little bit of the danger is that an idea, I think, is an abstraction.

713
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:26,120
And this is where our emphasis on praxis, our emphasis on kind of the lived reality

714
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:29,000
and becomes very important.

715
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:33,400
And so I think Francis had an idea of what it was to be a leper from the top of that

716
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:34,400
horse.

717
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:38,080
And he had a much different idea once he actually started talking to them.

718
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:44,640
And we see that Francis had an idea of, I think, what it meant to be a Muslim before

719
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:48,280
he went to Egypt and met Muslims.

720
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,040
And then he seems to have had a much different idea.

721
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:56,280
And he seems to have been able to recognize important parts of their culture when he went

722
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:57,720
there.

723
00:51:57,720 --> 00:52:06,880
So I think ideas become concrete when they're in a person, when they're in an experience.

724
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:14,040
And so we have that kind of push to, rather than to kind of condemn abstractions, to really

725
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,280
think about people.

726
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:22,800
And even though there's people that I would disagree with terribly, I still have to say

727
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:25,200
that person is made in the image and likeness of God.

728
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:27,680
And there's a reason why they're saying these things.

729
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:29,180
There's been some type of hurt.

730
00:52:29,180 --> 00:52:32,540
There's been some type of disregard of them.

731
00:52:32,540 --> 00:52:38,360
And so I have to be able to try to hear them and then try to dialogue with them using the

732
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:39,360
gospel.

733
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:42,200
And so we see Francis doing this.

734
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:46,480
I think we see Jesus doing this beautifully with a Samaritan woman, with a Syrophoenician

735
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:47,480
woman.

736
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:49,560
And there's conflict there.

737
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:51,400
But then there's two people.

738
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:56,840
And ultimately, at the end of those stories, there's two people who see the blessing, the

739
00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:03,960
goodness, and the call to orderliness in their relationship, rather than a call to chaos

740
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:09,880
and just kind of participating in these things that cause our society to be more chaotic.

741
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,080
And we can see that.

742
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:15,640
And for all the good, we're using technology, hopefully for good here.

743
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:19,000
But we also see that technology can be used for chaos.

744
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:22,360
And we have to, I think, fight against that.

745
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:27,880
Yeah, you mentioned patience, charity, and humility, correct?

746
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:35,320
Yeah, I mean, gosh, those are three things that we need more than ever today, it seems

747
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:40,880
like in our relationships with each other and then our own personal, but then communal

748
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:41,880
renewal.

749
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:42,880
Absolutely.

750
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:43,880
Absolutely.

751
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:45,780
I know we're winding down here.

752
00:53:45,780 --> 00:53:48,720
Anything I left out or anything else you'd like to say?

753
00:53:48,720 --> 00:53:55,400
You know, I think maybe to just kind of maybe think about three things that are important

754
00:53:55,400 --> 00:54:00,280
in terms of gospel living.

755
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:07,920
When one reads Francis's biographies, we start oftentimes with first, Celano.

756
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:11,840
But we also look at Francis's writings, which I think are a lot more extensive than people

757
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:13,920
realize.

758
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:17,200
We have to kind of think about, like, where do we, how does that, what does that look

759
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:18,200
like?

760
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:24,640
So, so, so Francis clearly heard the missionary discourse of Matthew, which is around Matthew

761
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:28,280
chapter 10, verses, let's say, seven through nine.

762
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:35,520
And this is, you know, a very clear call to, you know, without cost you have received,

763
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:37,960
without cost you are to give.

764
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:41,120
Do not take, you know, gold or silver or copper for you.

765
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:46,120
So we see this very concrete sense, you know, that Francis hears, don't take, you know,

766
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:49,120
gold, copper, silver.

767
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:52,000
You've received so much that you do not merit.

768
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:56,560
So without cost you've received, and then we're supposed to kind of give that back.

769
00:54:56,560 --> 00:55:00,440
So there's a certain simplicity to that.

770
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:03,920
When we think about Francis, I mean, there's two verses that come to mind when we think

771
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:04,920
about simplicity.

772
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:11,600
You know, we're called in 1 Peter chapter 2 verse 21 to walk in the footsteps of Christ.

773
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:18,240
So we can see a certain literalness to that that Francis tries to follow.

774
00:55:18,240 --> 00:55:22,580
And that is always, I think, going to lead to community when we're walking in the footsteps

775
00:55:22,580 --> 00:55:24,040
of Christ.

776
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:29,680
And then we'll hear from St. Paul into Corinthians, chapter eight, verse nine, and God chose to

777
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,640
become poor so that we could become rich.

778
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:36,300
So this is that kind of voluntary poverty.

779
00:55:36,300 --> 00:55:40,720
And then when we think about rich, what are we thinking about in terms of richness?

780
00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:46,200
You know, I think it's, you know, becoming rich in mercy, becoming rich in empathy, you

781
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,200
know, becoming rich in humility.

782
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:51,280
There's these calls that are important.

783
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:54,520
So we have that call for simplicity.

784
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:59,020
And Francis kind of really accentuates that.

785
00:55:59,020 --> 00:56:03,680
You know, I think there's also a call to rediscover God in creation.

786
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:07,480
And so Francis will kind of refer to that call.

787
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:11,760
And the last thing that Francis seems to have written is the testament, you know, and he'll

788
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:16,080
tell us kind of very clearly, you know, for when I was in sin, it was too bitter for me

789
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:18,920
to see lepers.

790
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:24,160
And I think that means it's too bitter to be part of creation, you know, that we want

791
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:29,200
to somehow maybe have some kind of abstractions that we're part of, that we see, like Francis

792
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:36,880
saw himself as perhaps a knight and all that that role entailed, rather than to see himself

793
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:40,640
in something that God kind of clearly created.

794
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:47,400
And so there's a great focus then, you know, on ultimately, you know, seeing God in the

795
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:52,520
sacraments that are part of our life as Catholics, you know, all Christians, I think, can agree

796
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:57,520
on the sacrament of baptism and then Christians kind of expand as we go there.

797
00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:00,320
But we have that kind of sacramental life.

798
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:07,960
And ultimately, the sacraments continue the divine incarnational presence in our lives.

799
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:14,840
As Franciscans, we focus very much on, let's say, how the Eucharist is in a very simple

800
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:18,320
piece of bread, and that becomes transformed.

801
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:20,960
But that's always before us.

802
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:26,840
And we can think about how Christ hid himself in the presence of an ordinary baby.

803
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:31,280
And there would be nothing, absolutely nothing, that would indicate that that baby was anything

804
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:33,040
other than ordinary.

805
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:38,040
And yet God had the humility to become that baby.

806
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:42,060
And then finally, you know, gospel living, I think, is part of, you know, the call to

807
00:57:42,060 --> 00:57:45,480
radical trust and dependence on God.

808
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:50,580
And as friars, we focus on the paths to that in holiness and joyful living.

809
00:57:50,580 --> 00:57:54,120
And so we have, you know, that sense of trust.

810
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:59,560
Another word for trust is faith, and we're kind of constantly called to develop that.

811
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:05,280
We see that, you know, at the heart of the gospel, and how we can trust God, how we can

812
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:07,640
be more dependent on God.

813
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:12,160
And that allows us to kind of give up and live, you know, and everyone does this in

814
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:16,480
different ways, but to live this kind of sense of voluntary poverty.

815
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:22,600
And we know that without joy, that poverty can just seem negative, that poverty can seem

816
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:24,300
kind of very forced.

817
00:58:24,300 --> 00:58:31,240
And so we see Francis, you know, drawn to the gospel, I think, first and foremost.

818
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:38,440
You know, scholars will argue whether he intended on kind of founding a community that ultimately,

819
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:44,660
I think, comes out of trying to walk in the footsteps of Jesus, who formed a community.

820
00:58:44,660 --> 00:58:49,740
But he first heard that gospel to kind of get on the journey, to let go of those things

821
00:58:49,740 --> 00:58:56,560
that were holding him back, and to have more faith, more trust in God, like Jesus had.

822
00:58:56,560 --> 00:59:03,840
Now, I appreciate you bringing those three themes on gospel living kind of here to the

823
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:09,680
end of our conversation, because I think that we talked about a lot, but I think everything

824
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:12,720
we talked about goes back to those three themes in some way.

825
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:16,680
So yeah, thank you so much for your time, Father Garrett.

826
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:18,640
No, wonderful being here with you.

827
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:22,960
Keep up the good work with Franciscan communications.

828
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:28,400
I mean, it's just wonderful to hear all the different people that you're interviewing

829
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:37,880
and kind of receiving that push to lean into our Franciscan lives, our Franciscan spirituality.

830
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:45,080
Again, that was Father Garrett Galvin, the president of the Franciscan School of Theology.

831
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:49,360
If you like this conversation, I recommend checking out the Franciscan School of Theology's

832
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:54,420
YouTube channel to explore lectures from Father Garrett and many other professors there.

833
00:59:54,420 --> 01:00:01,960
Or you can visit www.fst.edu to learn more about their different programs and degrees.

834
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:07,600
I recently completed the online master's degree in Franciscan theology through FST, and I

835
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:09,360
cannot recommend it enough.

836
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:13,820
My education there had a huge impact on my life and my own spiritual journey.

837
01:00:13,820 --> 01:00:16,000
So thank you for tuning in.

838
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:20,600
And if you like this conversation, again, I recommend exploring our St. Francis collection

839
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:25,220
and our store at shop.franciscanmedia.org.

840
01:00:25,220 --> 01:00:29,900
Thanks again to Father Garrett and FST, and thanks as well to Father Cyprian Concilio

841
01:00:29,900 --> 01:00:32,640
for providing the music for this episode.

842
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:35,440
This is Stephen Copeland signing off.

843
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:43,120
Peace and all good.

844
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:48,920
I will lead you into the desert with me and tenderly speak to your heart.