1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:13,800 Welcome to the Off the Page podcast from Franciscan Media, a podcast that will feature in-depth 2 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:18,080 conversations with Franciscan authors and artists. 3 00:00:18,080 --> 00:00:22,440 My name is Stephen Copeland and I'm the book editor here at Franciscan Media. 4 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,760 And today I'll be interviewing one of the most prolific writers and poets in the Franciscan 5 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,360 world, Father Murray Bodo. 6 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:35,400 Father Murray is a Franciscan priest and an award-winning author of numerous books, including 7 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:41,000 his best-selling, Francis, The Journey and the Dream, Nourishing Love, A Franciscan Celebration 8 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:46,980 of Mary, and most recently, God's Love Song, The Vision of Francis and Claire, which he 9 00:00:46,980 --> 00:00:50,520 co-authored with Susan St. Singh. 10 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:56,540 His book, Song of the Sparrow, Four Seasons of Prayer, will be republished in August 2024 11 00:00:56,540 --> 00:00:59,660 as we near the book's 50th anniversary. 12 00:00:59,660 --> 00:01:04,400 It will feature a brand new introduction and several new poems, one of which he reads during 13 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:06,080 this interview. 14 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:11,640 All these books can be purchased in our store at shop.franciscanmedia.org. 15 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:16,440 A little more about Father Murray, he is a founding staff member of Franciscan Pilgrimage 16 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:22,700 Programs where he led yearly pilgrimages to Assisi, Italy for over 40 years before retiring 17 00:01:22,700 --> 00:01:24,460 in 2020. 18 00:01:24,460 --> 00:01:29,600 He has had poems, stories, and articles published in magazines and literary journals in the 19 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,920 United States, England, and Ireland. 20 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:37,880 Father Murray resides in the inner city, over-the-rhyne neighborhood of Cincinnati, Ohio, where he 21 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,920 continues to write and minister. 22 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,920 I am really excited to share this interview with you. 23 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:48,320 As you'll hear, Father Murray is such a kind and present person, someone who is not 24 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:52,620 only generous with his time, but also with his willingness to share with people very 25 00:01:52,620 --> 00:01:55,960 real and honest moments from his life. 26 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:00,340 The interview went longer than expected, so we have split it into two episodes. 27 00:02:00,340 --> 00:02:02,280 I hope you enjoy. 28 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:06,000 Here is Father Murray Bodo. 29 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:13,400 So I wanted to start Father Murray with God's Love Song, which just came out, and then Song 30 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:18,320 of the Sparrow, which, you know, nearing the 50-year anniversary of that book, and it's 31 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,920 going to be republished, reprinted this year. 32 00:02:21,920 --> 00:02:26,640 And both of these books really revolve around prayer. 33 00:02:26,640 --> 00:02:31,640 And so I figured I'd give you a softball question to start out, something that's not complex 34 00:02:31,640 --> 00:02:32,800 at all. 35 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:33,800 What is prayer? 36 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:34,800 I'm believing. 37 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:42,640 The eternal question, what is prayer? 38 00:02:42,640 --> 00:02:49,360 You know, as looking at these two books, Song of the Sparrow and God's Love Song, you know, 39 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:55,200 they're like 50 years apart in the writing. 40 00:02:55,200 --> 00:03:04,820 And I saw, relooking at Song of the Sparrow, almost the first page I was already talking 41 00:03:04,820 --> 00:03:08,320 about prayer and what is prayer. 42 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:16,560 And practically everything that I have written, except for Francis, The Journey and the Dream, 43 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:22,920 which is a life of Francis, but there's all kinds of prayer stuff in there as well. 44 00:03:22,920 --> 00:03:33,200 But there was something about this, the whole concept prayer that was with me, has been 45 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,640 with me since I was a kid. 46 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:40,600 You know, I used to stare at statues when I was 10 years old, wondering why they couldn't 47 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:42,120 stare back or talk back. 48 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,160 I would talk to them. 49 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,480 I was in church, you know. 50 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:51,240 And so I was always trying to make this connection with God. 51 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,800 How do we do that? 52 00:03:53,800 --> 00:04:00,280 And in Song of the Sparrow, when I was teaching, I taught at this seminary for 12 years. 53 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:08,840 I was the English teacher and writing teacher, one of them, we had two, and I was also the 54 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,280 spiritual director. 55 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:22,640 So prayer had a lot to do with words at that time, because books had influenced me so much. 56 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:31,680 And I wanted to try to teach my students the craft of writing, for one thing, and then 57 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,080 the love of reading. 58 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:38,160 And so I was constantly working with words. 59 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:44,720 And so I gave them a word to help them see what prayer is. 60 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,960 And the word I gave them was sport. 61 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:52,640 I love that, yeah. 62 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:57,200 And the S in that word stands for silence. 63 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:06,520 So this, that whole, for me, prayer involves preparation. 64 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:13,720 It means hanging around with silence, with learning to be silent, being comfortable with 65 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,160 yourself in silence. 66 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:26,360 It's a remote preparation, but it is also the territory where God hangs out in silence. 67 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,840 And then the P of that word stood for purification. 68 00:05:30,840 --> 00:05:40,280 Somehow, in the process, I'm trying to clear myself out of distracting things, of all those 69 00:05:40,280 --> 00:05:49,320 things that would take me away from the silence that God dwells in, so that I'm purifying 70 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:59,960 my intentions, I'm purifying my mind that I can be open, which is the O of the word. 71 00:05:59,960 --> 00:06:06,120 Once I've purified my heart, then I'm open to whatever comes. 72 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:07,600 And it might be nothing. 73 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:08,600 It's like writing. 74 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:16,260 You know, I write every day, just about, and it's Flannery O'Connor said, I write every 75 00:06:16,260 --> 00:06:18,040 morning until noon. 76 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,240 Most, no, she didn't. 77 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:25,840 She said, I sit at my typewriter until noon. 78 00:06:25,840 --> 00:06:28,240 Most of the time, nothing happens. 79 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,600 But if it does, I'm ready for it. 80 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:32,600 Yeah. 81 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,480 I think that's prayer right there. 82 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:45,120 You try to be in that space where you can meet God, where you can be in God's presence. 83 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,400 And that's a whole long process. 84 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:58,160 You know, I think sometimes when people pray, they like going into the presence of the pope 85 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,400 in Rome and you just start talking. 86 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,680 You don't introduce yourself. 87 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,880 You don't try to see what kind of space you're in. 88 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,860 You don't wait for him to greet you. 89 00:07:09,860 --> 00:07:11,760 You just start talking. 90 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,600 And we wouldn't do something like that. 91 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:16,160 But we do it in prayer. 92 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,800 Sometimes we have to prepare our hearts for it. 93 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:26,760 And then there is always the R of the word sport, which is coming out of prayer. 94 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:31,360 There's always some kind of response. 95 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:38,000 Even if all I ever learned was silence, I've learned an awful lot. 96 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,320 And so one response was immediately Thanksgiving. 97 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:44,960 Thank you for this hour you gave me. 98 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:50,520 Thank you for these 20 minutes, five minutes, whatever it is. 99 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:57,120 And then the T of the word with the students, I used to say, that's talking. 100 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:58,240 Now you can talk. 101 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:03,880 But I think even more importantly, it stands for time. 102 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,360 All of this takes time. 103 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:14,960 And we know what we love by the amount of time we put in on it. 104 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:21,080 We have no time for prayer, but we can watch television for three or four hours and not 105 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:28,080 even notice that the time was passing or we can play a game or whatever it is, because 106 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,640 we love to do that. 107 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:38,580 And prayer and being in God's presence, because there's so much silence, you have to learn 108 00:08:38,580 --> 00:08:40,320 to love that. 109 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:45,000 You have to learn to prepare your heart for that sort of thing. 110 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:53,720 So in a sense, the whole book, Song of the Sparrow, was about how do you do that from 111 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,320 day to day? 112 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,520 I did it through words. 113 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:05,320 I'm trying to teach my students at that time the craft of writing. 114 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:11,920 And you just put the words down, if you think of writing a perfect paragraph, you'll never 115 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:13,020 write one. 116 00:09:13,020 --> 00:09:19,560 But if you just start writing, sooner or later, something will emerge from that, that you 117 00:09:19,560 --> 00:09:22,880 discovered on the page. 118 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:30,480 My writing teacher at the University of New Hampshire, Donald M. Murray, wonderful teacher. 119 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:35,240 He used to emphasize the inspiration of the writing pad. 120 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,920 It happens while you're writing. 121 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,920 And you say, oh, that's what I want to say, or that's what I'm talking about. 122 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:47,200 It might be two or three pages into what you're writing. 123 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:53,520 So I wanted to show the students that it was a process and that I was putting these things, 124 00:09:53,520 --> 00:10:01,000 these thoughts, scattered thoughts down all the way through the book. 125 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,960 And they end up being a book at the end. 126 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:06,720 Nobody can write a book. 127 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,760 It's too awesome a thing to even think about. 128 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,040 But you can write a paragraph. 129 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:19,320 And if you write enough of them and begin to order them and then organize them, something 130 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,560 starts to happen. 131 00:10:21,560 --> 00:10:34,920 So I would emphasize a lot in that book especially, that your prayer life has to be like a good 132 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:37,040 craft that you learn. 133 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,480 And it takes time. 134 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:41,600 You have to be an apprentice. 135 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,080 You have to be patient. 136 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:50,140 You have to have some kind of master, some kind of director, some kind of mentor. 137 00:10:50,140 --> 00:10:53,560 It takes a long time. 138 00:10:53,560 --> 00:10:57,200 And so does writing. 139 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:06,960 Because I was a writer, I naturally did it by means of words and my field has been English 140 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:08,560 and American literature. 141 00:11:08,560 --> 00:11:12,440 So I'm like immersed in that world. 142 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:24,280 But as one of our friars said to us when we were in college, Father Leander, he said, 143 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:33,560 well, literature won't save your souls, but it'll make your souls maybe worth saving. 144 00:11:33,560 --> 00:11:38,440 And there's something to that. 145 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,160 And all of that takes discipline. 146 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:48,680 And so discipline is a day to day thing. 147 00:11:48,680 --> 00:11:54,580 You're just not disciplined because you're now in a golf tournament. 148 00:11:54,580 --> 00:11:59,880 We hope you had played a few games before you got to that. 149 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:03,840 So you learn the discipline of your craft. 150 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:05,600 Well, prayer is that way. 151 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:10,000 And sometimes it is merely doing it. 152 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:17,240 Whether anything happens or not, you pray the way you can pray. 153 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:29,000 And Donald Murray used to say of writing, you work at your craft and pray for art. 154 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:30,720 Something else comes later. 155 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:42,120 So you work at the discipline of prayer, all of its forms, the sacraments, the prayer of 156 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:49,240 repetition, meditation, contemplation, which are two different things. 157 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:55,960 But they are parts that you can learn. 158 00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:00,720 I can learn how to be a gentleman. 159 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:02,960 I can learn how to fence. 160 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,120 I can learn how to dance. 161 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:13,560 But if I will master that, it's usually a force outside of myself that enables that 162 00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:17,600 inspiration. 163 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,080 The spirit comes to you. 164 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:26,040 But it comes to you because you're working at whatever you're working at. 165 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:35,280 So that's kind of what the song of the Sparrow, the first edition, 1976. 166 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:46,240 I was in my thirties and I didn't notice until we put out an issue, an edition rather in 167 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,600 2008. 168 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:57,960 I didn't realize that I only had fall, winter and spring because that was the school year. 169 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,480 I would take off for over 40 years. 170 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:08,560 I would take off soon as school was over and go to Assisi and lead pilgrimages. 171 00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:15,840 So then I'd be thinking Franciscan spirituality, Franciscan this, Franciscan whatever. 172 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:27,200 And that, of course, led to all of the Franciscan books I've tried to write and publish. 173 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:37,240 And the latest one being God's Love Song because that is kind of a culmination of that other 174 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:42,940 journey I made for 43 years going to Assisi. 175 00:14:42,940 --> 00:14:50,040 It's where I've met Susan St. Singh, who wrote a book with me. 176 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:58,240 And so things kind of tied together in a lifetime. 177 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:06,600 Now that I'm in my eighties, I can't believe it, but I can't be in denial forever. 178 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:10,640 I am in my eighties. 179 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:22,160 And so I see a kind of pattern that so much of my writing life and my life as a poet even 180 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:31,680 has had to do with prayer and my Franciscan spirituality. 181 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:41,680 I have in my collected poems, I have a huge section, his poems on Francis and Claire, 182 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,520 that I wrote over all those years. 183 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:52,480 And so our lives have a coherence. 184 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,680 They have a pattern. 185 00:15:55,680 --> 00:16:07,440 And that's why we have to have some kind of discipline or the life just goes off in all 186 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,880 kinds of directions. 187 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:19,760 And that's why I was so happy to see that Pope Francis is now going to canonize Carlo 188 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:30,760 Wacutis, the teenager from Milano, the Italian teenager who died of leukemia at 15 and was 189 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:41,920 a real computer geek and a real modern teenager and using the internet to evangelize in his 190 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,800 own way as a teenager. 191 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:53,600 So he's a model and how important the Eucharist was to his life. 192 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:59,400 And so young people, not only young people, I'm inspired by that, but especially young 193 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,000 people see a model who looks like them. 194 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:08,800 He looks like a teenager because he is a teenager. 195 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:17,760 But he was also a very disciplined kid when it came to prayer and also his computer work 196 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:18,760 and all that. 197 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:27,320 He wanted to be in computers, probably die young and live inside of the computer. 198 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:31,440 So that was a real, it's a real model. 199 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:41,880 And therefore, in our life of prayer, in our life of the spirit, whatever our spirituality 200 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:46,680 is, we need models. 201 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:55,720 And in the Franciscan tradition, we have had a male, female model from the very beginning, 202 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,640 Francis and Claire. 203 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:07,240 And Francis sings the canticle of the creatures, calling all creatures male, female, brother, 204 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:14,840 son, sister, moon, brother, wind, sister, water, brother, fire, sister, earth, our mother, 205 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,160 male, female, male, female. 206 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:28,880 And when we did our Assisi programs, we tried always to have as guides men and women, a 207 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:30,960 man and a woman. 208 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:41,040 So the pilgrim could identify not only with Franciscan spirituality, but with their own 209 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,800 maleness or their own femaleness. 210 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:50,480 And it's why Susan and I wanted to have two voices in this book. 211 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:58,480 And she, of course, is a secular Franciscan, which helps a lot because she lived in Assisi 212 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,880 for several years. 213 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:15,640 So to get the two voices are very, very important, especially in a church, which for centuries 214 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:25,280 was so male-dominated, where you have women's voices now emerging. 215 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:27,560 It's a wonderful thing. 216 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:41,680 And so that, too, was a part of the discipline of Franciscan spirituality to realize that 217 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:49,080 from the very beginning, there is a male and female very strong voice than Francis and 218 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,560 Claire from the very beginning. 219 00:19:52,560 --> 00:20:04,400 And that's kind of a magnet for people. 220 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:12,480 What else I would like to say about that, but that's kind of one of the reasons for 221 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,840 this God's love song, the vision of Francis and Claire. 222 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:22,200 We took the saint off of each one of them. 223 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:33,920 So to emphasize this man and this woman, their vision, what was it, to hopefully welcome 224 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:41,720 people who wouldn't be impressed by saints or whatever, but would be impressed by two 225 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:47,120 voices out of the Middle Ages that were very strong voices. 226 00:20:47,120 --> 00:21:00,760 So that's kind of a summary of the book, Song of the Sparrow, much earlier in first edition 227 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:06,040 in 76 and God's love song in 2024. 228 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:17,960 And then in 2008, when we put out a 40th anniversary of Song of the Sparrow, I added a section 229 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,440 summer. 230 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:35,160 And amazingly, it seems to flow right from whatever the rest of it was. 231 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,760 What was it like for you to write that section? 232 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,760 I'm guessing you wrote it from Assisi as you spent your summers there? 233 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:42,760 Yeah. 234 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:50,680 But this one, I didn't write it in Assisi. 235 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:58,840 I think most of it, I have a little hermitage in Florida in the winter time, in the courses 236 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:00,240 about summer. 237 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,880 That's a wonderful thing about writing. 238 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:11,000 You can be wherever you want to be, even though you're in a place totally different. 239 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:19,480 As Hemingway said, I can write better about Michigan in Paris than I can in Michigan. 240 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:20,480 You need some longing. 241 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,840 Yeah, you need some longing. 242 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,960 That's exactly the right word. 243 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:27,640 You need some longing. 244 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:39,320 So in the first edition, when I started out with autumn, which was always my favorite, 245 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:50,400 still is, season, I could go down that one, but I don't think I need to say why and everything. 246 00:22:50,400 --> 00:23:00,640 Anyway, I noticed I was going for a walk, I was walking, and then I'm out in the woods 247 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,120 and I'm looking at trees. 248 00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:10,840 Trees are very, very important to me, of all plants. 249 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:19,360 In the new one, I'm on a train going up the Hudson River. 250 00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:21,080 I don't know where I was headed to. 251 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:29,200 I think I was headed to, I don't know, but I was going up the Hudson River on an Amtrak 252 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:34,200 train. 253 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:43,200 The title of the first piece here for summer is called Journeys. 254 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:50,640 I think I was beginning to realize how much of my life has been a journey. 255 00:23:50,640 --> 00:24:01,920 My whole life, I went on a Greyhound bus when I was 14 years old from Gallup, New Mexico 256 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:13,720 to Cincinnati, Ohio, 1500 miles away to become a Franciscan friar in a high school seminary, 257 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:21,920 which one year after I was ordained, I was back to the same seminary teaching in the 258 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:28,680 same place, thinking I was going to be a missionary to the Navajos or whatever, especially the 259 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:29,880 Navajo. 260 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,760 That's what I thought I was being prepared for. 261 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:46,240 But how journeys are, and then all those years to Assisi, back and forth and back and forth. 262 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:53,280 The metaphor of journey is very important to me. 263 00:24:53,280 --> 00:25:04,080 It just struck me that in 1972, when I was 35 years old, my first book, entitled Francis, 264 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:09,880 The Journey and the Dream. 265 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,960 It turns out to be my whole spirituality. 266 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:19,000 The dream, of course, is prayer, the longing, the desire, all of that. 267 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:24,240 And then the journey is the pilgrimage. 268 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:30,120 We're on a pilgrimage in life. 269 00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:34,640 And we know that that metaphor is very strong today for people. 270 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:44,800 It seems like everybody wants to make the Camino, the journey, the Spanish. 271 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,800 What's the name of the play? 272 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,280 The Camino de Santiago. 273 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:51,280 Santiago. 274 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:52,280 Yeah. 275 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:53,280 Yeah. 276 00:25:53,280 --> 00:26:05,280 That whole idea of walking, of making the journey, how the journey, the outward journey 277 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,920 is an inward journey. 278 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:13,000 And the inward journey leads to an outward journey. 279 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:21,440 And that was what I saw in St. Francis's life when I was a boy. 280 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:36,480 That was drawn to him because, excuse me, at that time, our whole town, Gallup, New 281 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,440 Mexico, the bishop was a Franciscan. 282 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,360 The priests were Franciscan. 283 00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:45,920 The brothers were Franciscan. 284 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,560 The sisters were Franciscan. 285 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:58,720 So all of my connection with church and being a Catholic and all of that was through the 286 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:05,720 lens of Franciscan spirituality, Franciscan way of looking at the world. 287 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:16,720 And so it drew me so powerfully that I ended up having to go on that journey as a 14-year-old 288 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,320 boy. 289 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:30,480 And it was the draw of Francis, not so much Claire in those years. 290 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:35,080 We didn't know much about her in the 50s. 291 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:48,600 There was a book here and there on St. Claire, but she hadn't really emerged as she did when 292 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:56,520 women's studies became a huge part of academia. 293 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:07,640 And so powerful women across the whole world of all religions and all beliefs and non-beliefs 294 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:19,080 were beginning to emerge and show how strong their voice is and how essential it is. 295 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:24,960 And so then Claire, although everybody's writing about Claire because there were so many women 296 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:32,920 scholars, but men too started to dig into her writings. 297 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:39,240 It's amazing how writing is. 298 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:48,280 And writing her sisters, writing their own rule, having to fight with five popes over 299 00:28:48,280 --> 00:29:00,400 the privilege of poverty and having an order that is with us today, like the ill dimension 300 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,480 of the order, it's with us today. 301 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:12,760 So it's not just dependent on some superheroes somewhere and when they die it ends, but they 302 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:21,840 founded something that was of God and was a need in the human heart. 303 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,640 Yeah. 304 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,640 It was its own journey. 305 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:32,600 It was its own journey for her and her sisters too. 306 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:39,440 I think one of, I know we keep coming back to that theme a little bit, journeying. 307 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:44,560 One of my favorite things about Song of the Star of Father Murray is you really feel the 308 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,720 movement in it. 309 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:48,720 Oh, do you? 310 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:49,720 Yeah. 311 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:54,920 I mean, you feel the interior aspects of your journey. 312 00:29:54,920 --> 00:30:06,120 I mean, so many of the poems and reflections are raw and honest, but very grounded. 313 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:11,600 And you're very honest about times when you're waiting or you're a little bit uncomfortable 314 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,320 or whatever it may be. 315 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,240 All these things that are part of the journey. 316 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:23,920 And I was wondering if you could maybe provide some commentary on that, the journey of prayer, 317 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,800 because it entails emptiness, does it not? 318 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,960 And waiting and discomfort. 319 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,800 And at the same time, it's play too. 320 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:35,800 It's sport. 321 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:37,680 You can be yourself. 322 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:43,200 So yeah, I'd love to hear some commentary on that from you. 323 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:49,720 Well, I was surprised at a certain period in my life. 324 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:57,280 I think it was when I wrote the Song of the Sparrow of how many poems are sprinkled through 325 00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:58,760 there are not sprinkled. 326 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,120 They are integral to the text. 327 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:06,480 The prose leads to the poem. 328 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:13,640 And well, I was looking at the book this morning. 329 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:26,760 And in this first section in autumn, I have this, I'm talking about prayer, but then this 330 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:35,320 poem appears on the page, which I had forgotten about. 331 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,200 That's years ago when I wrote that. 332 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:50,680 But I had a letter from a nun who is very, she can't leave the house. 333 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:56,360 She's in a nursing home and this is alone a lot. 334 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:02,280 And she asked me if I had a holy card of this prayer. 335 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,080 And so she sent the prayer. 336 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,240 It is a poem. 337 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,520 And I said, I wonder where that is. 338 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:10,640 I was going through the book. 339 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:12,640 I did find it. 340 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:20,840 But here is the thing that had lasting meaning for her because she said she's prayed it for 341 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:22,460 years. 342 00:32:22,460 --> 00:32:33,480 This is the poem, in the night alone with my thoughts, I remember you, O God. 343 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:45,560 And my empty room and empty your thoughts are filled with your love, your watchful care. 344 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:57,800 And loneliness is changed to praise, to gratitude that empty hearts are lodges for your loving 345 00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:59,800 presence. 346 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:10,840 Well, that's just packed because it's a poem and a poem is a condensation of a lot of things. 347 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:19,560 And so it's just, I thought, did I write that? 348 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:24,480 It resonates with me, of course, today. 349 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:34,400 And then I was looking at something else and that's in that first edition. 350 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,320 And in the new edition. 351 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:42,960 Could I keep you at that poem real quick for one second? 352 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:53,520 Would you mind commenting on, because when it comes to prayer or any certainly contemplation, 353 00:33:53,520 --> 00:34:00,120 meditation, it can be a lonely, almost terrifying experience at times. 354 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:07,080 Can you, I don't know if you remember where that poem arose from within you or the time 355 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:11,000 and place you're kind of navigating at that time in your life. 356 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:23,640 But I'd really be curious for you to talk about loneliness and how prayer can be a service 357 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:24,640 to us. 358 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:29,540 Yeah, well, I'll try. 359 00:34:29,540 --> 00:34:42,600 So there's a big difference, we started talking about loneliness and being alone. 360 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:54,680 Being alone can be very comfortable, silence or being alone can be loneliness. 361 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,340 And that's what this alone is. 362 00:34:57,340 --> 00:35:11,760 So for some reason, I'm trying to think what I would, well, it's night and I'm alone at 363 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:12,760 night. 364 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:17,640 I want to be with somebody. 365 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,400 I need somebody with me. 366 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,040 I need the touch of another human being. 367 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,400 I need the conversation. 368 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:32,840 I need to feel less alone than I was feeling. 369 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:43,040 So in the night alone with my thoughts, you know that that's not Einstein, he would love 370 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,040 his thoughts. 371 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:49,720 But this is a heart poem. 372 00:35:49,720 --> 00:35:55,560 In the night alone with my thoughts. 373 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,920 And I don't say I think of you, God. 374 00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:04,040 I say, I remember you. 375 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,760 I'm longing for something. 376 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,840 I'm longing for someone. 377 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:22,480 And I remember you, Lord, because somehow God, well, you can see it in the other pages, 378 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:32,400 has touched my life, has been there for me, has been someone that I could lean on, someone 379 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:38,160 I can love, someone I can touch. 380 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:47,160 I remember you, O God, and my empty room and emptier thoughts are filled with your love. 381 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:54,320 When I think of God, I don't remember any dogma, that's for sure. 382 00:36:54,320 --> 00:37:07,120 When I remember your love, your watchful care, and you see already the loneliness is turning 383 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:17,560 to companionship with God's spirit within me. 384 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,880 And loneliness is changed to praise. 385 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:33,080 When I think of you, I'm lonely and I think of you and everything changes because I know 386 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:40,160 you love me, I know you've cared for me. 387 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,480 And I just have to praise you for that. 388 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:47,060 How could you do that? 389 00:37:47,060 --> 00:37:50,560 Notice me, care about me. 390 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:59,360 So it's changed to praise, to gratitude. 391 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,160 And what am I grateful for? 392 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:10,640 I say it's turned to praise, to gratitude that empty hearts like mine here are really 393 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:12,880 lodges, little lodgings. 394 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,320 I love that line. 395 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:19,240 For your loving presence. 396 00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:25,960 And so that's the thing about poetry. 397 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,920 It's so packed that you have to kind of open it up. 398 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:39,000 And sometimes the backstory, which I can't remember for this, but would make it even 399 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:47,240 more something that can open up because I'm talking about something that probably everybody 400 00:38:47,240 --> 00:38:51,320 has had this feeling. 401 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:59,560 And that's one of my favorite things about the way you write Father Murray and it really 402 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:10,560 comes out in your poetry is your ability to go so deep into your own heart, just as it 403 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,800 is in that moment. 404 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:22,680 And in that, you really end up somewhere that's universal a lot of times where it's like, 405 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,880 oh, I've felt that. 406 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:33,880 I felt like I'm trying to listen to God and seek God and where is God? 407 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:35,760 God's not showing up. 408 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:41,000 But that longing in the middle of the night where the thoughts are just racing, racing, 409 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:47,440 racing, and you're like, I want to get back to God, I don't know how to get there. 410 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:52,560 We've all felt that poem that you just read. 411 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,840 I don't know if I have a copy here. 412 00:39:54,840 --> 00:40:03,760 I should, of course, but of the journey and the dream, but it just struck me that the 413 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:10,080 book opens with Francis unable to sleep, tossing and turning and thinking. 414 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:15,680 The very thing that we're talking about. 415 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,680 Maybe if we pause. 416 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,080 Yeah, yeah. 417 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:30,840 Okay, so here is the already on the second page of the journey and the dream, which was 418 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:41,320 written in 1972 and the down this barrel in 76. 419 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,040 There's four years in between there. 420 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:51,760 But this is what is already and then the title of it is the dream. 421 00:40:51,760 --> 00:41:01,840 That chapter, Francis tossed in his bed, straining his mind, begging it to relax, asking it to 422 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:10,040 sleep, coaxing his body gently, then violently to drop off into slumber. 423 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:11,040 Quit thinking. 424 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,080 Please sleep, mind. 425 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:18,720 I have to rest to sleep or I'll never recover from this madness. 426 00:41:18,720 --> 00:41:22,620 This despair that's clutching at me here in the dark. 427 00:41:22,620 --> 00:41:28,840 He got up and paced the room, his hands ruffling, his tangled black hair. 428 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:30,120 What's the matter with me? 429 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:31,120 This is so crazy. 430 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:36,800 How can I be afraid and upset when there's nothing to be afraid of? 431 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:37,800 It's so silly. 432 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,800 Get back into bed, Francis. 433 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:42,020 Relax. 434 00:41:42,020 --> 00:41:49,080 He dove into bed and lay face down trying to feel exhausted, but he couldn't sleep. 435 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:55,920 All night he tossed and sweated and asked himself why sleep never came easily anymore. 436 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,080 Okay, so it was on. 437 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,480 There's a whole chapter like that. 438 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:08,440 But obviously I was somehow preoccupied with this part. 439 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:15,600 I knew of course that Francis probably had post-traumatic stress and coming back from 440 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:20,520 the war and all of that. 441 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:27,760 How could he not have these kinds of experiences and have them frequently? 442 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:38,920 How could he not jump if he heard a horse neighing too heavily or something like a war 443 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,360 horse? 444 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:51,600 That kind of experience in a poem becomes a very condensed experience. 445 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:56,360 At that time I didn't know I could write prose. 446 00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:02,600 I wrote that book out of obedience that I was sent by the friars to Assisi to write 447 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:03,600 it. 448 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:10,280 I saw myself and I had for years as a poet, mainly a poet. 449 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:21,400 It's ironic that later in life when I was in my fifties I had a fellowship and a scholarship 450 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:27,920 from the University of Cincinnati to get a doctorate in English that would involve a 451 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:36,960 creative writing dissertation, either a book of poems or a book of short stories. 452 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:47,000 So for four years I was pursuing from the year of 50 till I was 54, 55 to get this doctorate. 453 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:51,640 I was like a grandfather with all the other graduate students there. 454 00:43:51,640 --> 00:44:02,160 But anyway, when I got out it was quite a while before I could write a poem or a real 455 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:11,920 story because I'd used four years exercising my left brain and I was critiquing every word 456 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:12,920 I wrote. 457 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:21,920 I couldn't write anything because I became too self-critical until my right brain started 458 00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:33,080 to take over again and I could get in touch with my own art on the page and start to write 459 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:34,080 again. 460 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:38,680 Again, that was Father Murray Bodo. 461 00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:42,360 I hope you tune into the second half of the interview, which really revolves around this 462 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:48,200 theme of the heart and how it applies to creativity in the formation of our own souls. 463 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:52,180 I personally found part two to be really special. 464 00:44:52,180 --> 00:44:56,800 He reads several writings of his own and delves into where they came from and why he wrote 465 00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:57,800 them. 466 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,960 And as you'll hear our conversation even gets quite emotional at the end. 467 00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:06,760 But for now, here is Father Cyprian Consiglio taking us out. 468 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:17,280 Peace and all good.