1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,320 I've got to be careful when I'm drinking. My dad's the same. I don't go sniffing for scraps, 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:12,720 but if I'm in a mood and I start into theJjack, I will not back down. If someone's looking, I'm 3 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:20,320 off. It's like sex, heat, our bodies colliding, pounding each other. Sometimes, after we help 4 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:37,360 each other up, shake hands, admire each other's bloody faces, even hug. Hello and welcome to 5 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:44,080 What Kind of Man Are You, the podcast about men, masculinity, and you and Degan and I being friends. 6 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,760 I'm Chris Garbutt, a writer and communications professional. 7 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:54,880 I'm Degan Davis. I'm a poet and a writer and a Gestalt therapist. I'm just laughing. We were 8 00:00:54,880 --> 00:01:00,080 deciding what poem to read just a few minutes ago, and this is on friendship. And here we have two 9 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:07,120 guys pounding each other, then at the end, coming up and saying, you know, respecting one another's 10 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:14,480 strength, even hugging. And that story was told to me by a relative, you know, big guy gets into 11 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:19,360 fights sometimes, and he said, it's happened more than once. And I've got stories afterwards of that. 12 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:24,640 So we're coming at friendship from the start, from what may seem at the beginning very far 13 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,800 from the idea of friendship, male friendship. But one of the things I thought we could do at the 14 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:34,480 beginning was actually talk about famous male friends and duos. Okay, so I'll throw some out 15 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:41,440 and let's make a little. Let's riff. Let's riff. Okay. These are, well, one of the most classic 16 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:47,440 Sherlock Holmes and Watson. Oh, yeah. And then I was going to the 70s and 80s for television, 17 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:53,120 Starsky and Hutch. Yep. Bowen Luke Duke from the Dooms of Pazard. I'm really sure 18 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:58,720 where that stands. They're brothers, though. So brothers and friends, I guess. Brothers and friends. 19 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:04,880 I mean, some of these being very classic duos, Batman and Robin. I was even thinking Calvin 20 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:11,520 and Hobbes, they're friends. Yeah. Robin and Hobbes. That's my favorite cartoon. And Robinhood 21 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:17,680 Little John. Yeah. Do you any others that you can? Well, off the top of my head, I can think of 22 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:24,160 Lenin McCartney. Right. Who else? I felt so good. I felt so proud of Lenin McCartney. Yeah. 23 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:28,560 Yeah, one of the faults. I blanked myself out. Interesting. You mentioned Lenin and McCartney 24 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:36,160 because we're talking about friendship this podcast. We're also talking about mentorship. And I think 25 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:41,920 they are different, right? Friendship doesn't have any hierarchy in that way. And mentorship often 26 00:02:41,920 --> 00:02:48,240 does. But you mentioned music and the Beatles. And I've got some stories of musicians have mentored 27 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:56,320 others. I guess there's also Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn. Right. I've been preparing for this podcast 28 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:02,960 over the last week and really thinking about male friendship. You had to pause there. It's not that 29 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:11,200 easy, I found in the last week, to think of works of art, classic television shows that are centered 30 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:17,600 on male friendship. Hmm. Again, I'm saying to readers, listener, prove me wrong. Prove us wrong. 31 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:22,800 Prove us wrong. But that's a good point, though. And you know, and I think you have this whole 32 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:33,120 subgenre of friendship art movies around the word bro and the word bro man. And to me, that has this 33 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:39,600 kind of faint ridiculousness to it. And I'd love your take on this because in my sense, bro is always 34 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:46,320 either like two guys that are maybe drinking buddies or they're kind of lost and they hang 35 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:51,760 out with each other. There's something lost about a bro or a bro man. Is that your interesting? 36 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:59,200 That yours take? The first time I heard the term bromance was after there was a movie that came 37 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:05,200 out. I think it had Paul Rudd in it. I don't know who else was in it, but it was called I Love You Man. 38 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:09,680 Right. I never saw that movie, but that's the first time I heard the term bromance. 39 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:17,680 And when I think about bromance, it feels vaguely, does it feel vaguely homophobic to you? Yeah. 40 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:24,480 Yeah. Men can't say they love each other because that means they might be gay. 41 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:31,920 Exactly. And it's like, what? Yeah. On the other hand, it's true. This is a fact of our existence 42 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:38,800 in our society. You and I call each other man all the time. Bro feels like kind of a distancing word 43 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:43,520 to me. You are more like a brother to me than a lover. And it's like, we're both straight men. 44 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:49,200 I handle this. Yeah. There's an inherent suspicion or judgment inside the word, 45 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:53,200 particularly bromance, but bros. I suppose you could say like, yeah, they're bros, 46 00:04:53,200 --> 00:05:01,200 but a lot of time it has that suspicion in it. I was thinking, there's no comparable word for 47 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:07,360 female friendship. I can't think of one that you could throw people with that faint sense of homophobic 48 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:14,080 or just that discomfort of men being together. So you have to have some slightly ridiculous 49 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:21,120 phrase to name it. But I can't think of one like that friends call each other like bestie or best 50 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:26,800 BFF. That doesn't have a negative connotation. No, that's true. That has closeness. Maybe we 51 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:33,600 talk about the male script, right? Yeah. I have loved the Elena Farente quartet of novels, 52 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:39,360 which begins with my brilliant friend. It's a set of four novels. And that is one of the most 53 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:46,400 profound examinations and explorations of female friendship I have ever read. And it follows this 54 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:53,040 incredible bond, these intimate betrayals, love, jealousy, the incredible distance over their 55 00:05:53,040 --> 00:06:01,280 lives. It follows about 40 or 50 years and this unbreakable closeness. And I felt myself longing 56 00:06:01,280 --> 00:06:07,760 to read about male friendship in that way, the complexity of it, particularly over a lifetime. 57 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:14,080 And I want to say to the listeners, please prove us wrong. Maybe there are wonderful stories that 58 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:20,400 go into the intricacy of male friendships, but I don't feel that they are as present in culture. 59 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:27,680 Well, we talk about in previous episodes about mediated connection, everything between men 60 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:35,760 tends to have to be through an activity or talking about that activity. So sports was our last episode. 61 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:41,040 Let's think about some of these people we mentioned. A lot of those 62 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:49,520 hairs of friends worked together or they made music together. We'll put masks on together. 63 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:57,440 Or put masks on. Oh, Batman. But they worked together. But even Starsky and Hush, they worked 64 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:02,160 together. Sure. I just thought of another one, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. They were 65 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:10,800 doing a job together. Don Quixote and Sancho on an adventure. Right. Right. And so I guess even 66 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:18,160 Frodo and the band of Hobbits had to, you know, there might be something to them though. It feels 67 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:23,360 like it shows a little more vulnerability. The Hobbit friendship. Yeah, the Hobbit friendship 68 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:28,000 and Lord of the Rings might be. Well, they're cute, right? They can get away with it because 69 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:32,480 they're cute and they're the underdog. Right. When they head to Mordor with their swords, 70 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:40,000 we're so backing the underdog. Right. So their friendship, which can seem sweet, is bonded by 71 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:46,160 this iron will and bravery. Yeah, true. And also it's a bit hierarchical in the sense that they 72 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:54,400 refer to Frodo as Mr. Frodo. Right. He just refers to them as their nicknames. To me, 73 00:07:54,400 --> 00:08:00,080 when we talk about bro, bro-mance, the opposite of that, and I don't have a word for it, 74 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:10,560 would be the untouchable iron male friendship. If friends are going through a war, a sports event, 75 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:17,280 a game, a tragedy, divorce, and any intense experience that you share with a friend, 76 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:23,520 I think that it's almost, I had the image of iron being melted and a smithy, you know, 77 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:29,840 blacksmith's shop and being recast as something. It's almost as if the ingredients of this friendship 78 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:39,440 becomes joined and recast in this unbreakable way. And that to me seems like an almost archetypal 79 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:47,440 story in men. Can you give me an example? Well, one I'll give you from my grandfather, my mother's 80 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:54,880 father. He was a paratrooper and in the Second World War, and he commanded a group of men, 81 00:08:54,880 --> 00:09:00,000 a squadron of men, and one of them challenged him early on. They were, I think, only 18 years old. 82 00:09:00,560 --> 00:09:06,400 And this man named Jim challenged my grandfather, and they fought like the opening poem. They fought 83 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:11,920 it out. And at the end, they did the exact same thing. They one helped the other up. From that 84 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:20,560 moment, they were inextricably bound. To add to that, they parachuted into Sicily, into Germany. 85 00:09:20,560 --> 00:09:27,120 They were held in Stalig 8, the prison camp together. They escaped from this prison camp, 86 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:32,080 right close to Auschwitz, and walked back. And I was just looking last night at the walk they took 87 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:39,440 from just outside Auschwitz to Odessa, at least a thousand kilometers. They at night living off 88 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:46,800 routes. I mean, this sounds almost Homeric, right? The return home, right? But I think it was, in a 89 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:52,240 way. And the two of them, my mother said after that, he was even called Uncle Jim. He came into 90 00:09:52,240 --> 00:10:00,080 the family. He married a cousin. All to say, their friendship, I think, had an iron core to it. 91 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:04,880 And they were with each other for the rest of their lives. I'm not saying that's the only way 92 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:10,560 that male friendship bonds. But I can't imagine them being called bros. It doesn't feel right. I feel 93 00:10:10,560 --> 00:10:16,080 like there's a respect granted to a friendship like that. The term that comes to mind is brothers and 94 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:22,400 arms. There is literary language for that, like a friendship forged in steel, you know, that kind 95 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:29,040 of idea. And I think there is something to a connection you have with someone where you've 96 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:35,040 been through. There's nothing like that kind of experience that you or I have ever seen. 97 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:43,360 No, although to say that, we have both been married in the past and divorced and separated. 98 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:52,720 I'm not saying that's a war, but in an interior way, it's a shocking alteration in your life. 99 00:10:52,720 --> 00:11:01,600 A shocking loss. And you were there for me. And was I there for you? Yes, you were. And indeed, 100 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:08,320 I would say that divorce was probably the worst thing I ever went through. And that includes 101 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:16,880 losing a parent. That includes any other breakup I've been through, because you get into a marriage 102 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:23,280 expecting it to last forever. And when it doesn't, that is that is a lot of pain. It's an enormous 103 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:29,200 amount of pain. And you know, Chris, I think I'd like to devote a whole other episode to separation 104 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:40,560 and divorce, because I think it is the unspoken and unscripted ceremony of many male coming into 105 00:11:40,560 --> 00:11:47,280 themselves, almost like a ceremony of becoming becoming an adult. And there's a lot around 106 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:52,880 that, of course, we need other rights. But I think that's certainly working as a therapist for so 107 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:59,120 long. So many times I have seen that that the end of a marriage really means in a way the beginning 108 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:04,000 of a different kind of adulthood. Yes. Yes, I agree with that. It is completely 109 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:12,080 unscripted, unritualized. The only rituals you go through are with lawyers. It is unscripted. 110 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:18,000 Certainly what you and other friends did for me, we didn't have a script to read, but we made one. 111 00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:24,080 I'll remember as my marriage was ending. And I'm very happy to say now I'm good friends with my 112 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:31,040 ex. And this feels very far away to speak about. But in that it certainly wasn't when it was happening. 113 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:38,560 And I remember calling you and other friends and envisioning the life to come and saying, 114 00:12:38,560 --> 00:12:44,800 I want to buy a piece of land somewhere and I want to build something. And would you come with me 115 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:51,760 and help me? And it was almost like the practicality of actually having a piece of land was grounding 116 00:12:51,760 --> 00:13:00,400 the idea of hammering nails into wood and creating something. And it turned out I didn't quite do it 117 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:06,560 that way, although I did buy property. But I think the concrete nature of building a future and 118 00:13:06,560 --> 00:13:13,680 friends to imagine populating this future with or engaging with them, it was really a lifeline. 119 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:19,680 And also just to sit and say, hey, you know, have a beer with me. This is a really that kind of a 120 00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:27,440 hard time. Yeah. Yeah. And so thank you. You're welcome. And thank you. It really, it is interesting 121 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:36,240 after a breakup. I've had some great relationships and all except the one I'm in right now broke up. 122 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:43,840 And I turned to my male friends in those times. And it's not like I ignored my female friends and 123 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:51,840 didn't talk about it with them. But it is interesting that that was my instinct. And most of those 124 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:56,720 conversations were some of the most real I ever had with you and with a couple of other my other 125 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:04,640 friends. It's certainly a time when you do eat friends. It's not forged in the a clash of war 126 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:10,240 and utter survival in the external sense. But I think it is in the internal sense. Yeah. Yeah. 127 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:16,480 I feel so blessed to have you and others as close friends working from a coming from a counseling 128 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:22,720 perspective. Sometimes I play that role for a time, right? Someone is divorcing and they are 129 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:31,120 dissociated and they are in profound shock. The idea that marriage is forever. And so part of that 130 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:38,560 role as a therapist is to hold that place, almost a placeholder. And you need to get this kind of 131 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:43,440 support out there. And sometimes that just means them saying, I've known this person for 20 years, 132 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:48,560 but they've never really known what's actually going on in here. Right. And for them to risk that. 133 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:56,960 And I think that's something really important in terms of the whole bro thing and using language 134 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:04,240 like bromance. That removes risk and vulnerability. That's right. Yeah. And so, you know, if you call 135 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:12,800 someone bro, then it's like, I like you, but I've still got the shield on and we can enjoy the game 136 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:17,840 together. But, you know, I'm not going to actually say I like you. Yeah. Although I mean, of course, 137 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:23,520 you have men getting absolutely drunk and really weeping, right? Yes, that's true. I love somebody 138 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:29,840 gets very drunk and says, I love you, man, or I just, I love you. Would say wouldn't normally say 139 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:35,520 oh my God, you're the best friend anyone could ever have. That's an outlet for sure. And I think 140 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:41,360 beer has actually really helped men probably even come closer to that, you know, right? Man, you 141 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:47,200 mean a lot to me or this kind of thing. But I think the danger is that that's sometimes the 142 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:52,640 only intimacy. Right. And of course, then, I mean, you don't remember those words, you know, 143 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,960 there's something about taking the risk with someone and saying, yeah, you mean a lot to me. 144 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,800 Yeah. We don't live forever on this earth, you know. Yeah. So you mean a lot to me, Chris. 145 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:07,200 Thank you. And actually, I would like to get into that. But let's take a break and we'll come back 146 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:28,240 after this interlude. So we are back. I'm just realizing, Chris, that just before the break, 147 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:33,760 I used my broly voice. I was like, I didn't mean a lot to me. Oh, interesting. And I don't think 148 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:38,480 there's anything wrong with that, right? We have to. We're always mediating these pieces. 149 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,520 But I think we're going to talk about our friendship. Yeah. I thought maybe 150 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:48,960 it'll be fun to reminisce how we met and how we became friends and what led to this podcast, 151 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:54,800 like how the conversations we've had and the things we've done to want to explore this topic more. 152 00:16:54,800 --> 00:17:04,640 Yep. So when we first met, I was running a reading series. And I think I was involved with, 153 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:11,680 it was connected to a literary magazine, that's right. And we had started this literary 154 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:19,680 reading series to promote the magazine and to raise funds for it. And Degan had submitted some 155 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:28,160 poems and we wanted to publish them. And the people we published who were in the city, 156 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:34,320 we asked them to do a reading at the reading series. And I don't know if we actually talked on 157 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:39,280 the phone or if it was voicemail back and forth, but we arranged to meet in the same 158 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:48,160 bar that we had this reading series. And Degan was interested in volunteering for the magazine. 159 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:55,680 And so we met at this bar, the green room outside with the dappled light coming through the trees, 160 00:17:55,680 --> 00:18:00,240 leaves, I remember actually. Oh, really? That's so romantic, didn't it? Yeah. 161 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:08,240 A bromantic, a dappled light. See how easy it is. Right? I was reading what you might even consider 162 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:16,400 a rowy book. Alexandria Quartet. Alexandria Quartet by, was it Lawrence Dural? Which at the 163 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:21,040 time I thought was so amazing. There you go. That's the answer to Elena Farente. That's maybe 164 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:28,880 the male quartet of books. Could be. It's very male. And I have to say, reading it, however many 165 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:34,720 30 years later, doesn't stand up. It's romantic in its own way. Is it male friendship? So I remember 166 00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:41,760 it's like a lot of kind of characters that were in their 20s and 30s, almost like beat, like living 167 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:49,360 in small little apartments and maybe studying in Cairo or Alexandria. They were living in 168 00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:54,720 Alexandria and he was an artist or writer. There's four books in this one book and 169 00:18:55,760 --> 00:19:02,640 three named after a different woman and one named after a man. And I don't know, I was disappointed. 170 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:08,480 It felt very bro-y to me, actually. I think this was about a few months after because this to me, 171 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,560 I've talked about, you were talking about those moments of iron, right? There's at least, that's a 172 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:22,400 very fierce image or warrior image, but the moments of connection, right? And when one day at a 173 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,960 reading series, when I was just getting to know you, the reading series you were running, I had 174 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:33,520 someone ask me if I could put out on the tables an advertisement for another reading series. 175 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:40,720 And I came to you as the CEO of the Grand Suba and said, hey, is this cool? And I think probably 176 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,960 you were doing a lot of things and you're like, our reading series is what we want to promote, 177 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:49,760 but sure, go ahead. Something like that. But I didn't, I was just getting to know you. I was new 178 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:56,080 to Toronto, so I put it out, but I really felt I think I messed this up. And I remember very 179 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:02,320 clearly being in my apartment and thinking, I think I'm done. I think I don't want to be part of 180 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:08,320 the reading series that like leave it. Yeah. Oh, because of that. And now that's just for whatever 181 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:14,880 reason, I just thought I had done something and maybe you were like, whatever, I just felt judged. 182 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:19,280 I felt like I messed it up, right? And I think these things happen and who knows what else had been 183 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:24,560 going on in my mind. And I remember saying, I think I'm just going to not just show up anymore. 184 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:31,120 I'm just going to be out and then going, no, I'm going to call you. And I really, 185 00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:38,080 I think about time stopping in that moment because I could have not. It's like the subway doors. 186 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:42,960 Right. Yeah. Sliding doors. The sliding doors. But, and here's a sense where I think we, 187 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:49,120 this is a big topic too, fate. How do we influence our fate? But I call and I said, I mentioned, 188 00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:53,680 I don't know if you remember this. I actually don't remember this. So I called and said, 189 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:58,480 hey, I just wanted you to know, it sounds ridiculous now, right? But I just want you to know, 190 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:04,720 I felt pretty bad about that. And you said, maybe I don't even remember it or that's totally fine. 191 00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:13,280 And it sounds so silly. But I think because sometimes men don't speak, sometimes many of us 192 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:20,800 don't speak about those niggles that we have, those moments of hurt, those moments of confusion, 193 00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:28,160 and the doors close and the subway moves on. And to me, that cemented us or at least an 194 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:35,840 early cement. And I felt so relieved. So I'm glad I'm happy that my 30 year ago self did that. 195 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:41,520 And that we're here talking about this. I'm grateful too. What if you hadn't made that call 196 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:49,600 and ghosted the reading series and never saw you again? And that makes me very sad. And this is 197 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:56,480 the kind of thing you think about your partner, the person you're in a relationship with. Imagine 198 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:03,520 if I never asked her out or imagine if my wife now is someone I used to work with and imagine if I 199 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:08,560 because I didn't take the job at first and then they came back to me with more money, which was 200 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:13,280 awesome. But honestly, I don't think about it with my friends all that much. And it's interesting to 201 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:19,840 think about these moments where it could have a friendship that's lasted 30 years. What would 202 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:26,320 have that been? And one of the things I think about with our friendship is that it is not like 203 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:33,680 any friendship I've had with the men. We, I think we have both cried in each other's company. 204 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:43,840 And not about the Leafs losing another series. But actually about personal things. And I'm so 205 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:52,320 grateful for that. And it's not something I expect from relationships with men. So thank you for that. 206 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:57,680 But you're very welcome. Maybe I'll share a story then very much on that wavelength. 207 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:04,800 Talking about this was, I think around the time of my separation or just before it. And in the 208 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:11,840 second episode on sports, I spoke about having two or three years, which were very difficult, 209 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:17,840 especially particularly around sports and around being bullied and not for all different reasons, 210 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:23,520 not having a voice to stand up, not having the knowledge of how to do it, which I thankfully 211 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:32,240 did learn later, a lot to do with words. But then I didn't have it. I had kept those years very hidden 212 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:39,600 away deep at a little tiny chamber of my heart almost becomes a speck. And I had mentioned 213 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:45,440 some of the scenes I shared a couple of the last episode about this man saying what an arm on the 214 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:50,800 queer after a good thrill and just not knowing how to respond and feeling this burning shame. 215 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:56,960 And that went on in different ways for a number of years. So I'll never forget this moment coming 216 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:03,840 to visit you in Riverdale and feeling perhaps some separation was in the air in my marriage, 217 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:11,520 but it was early. But more than I think beginning to unearth this speck of a chamber in my heart 218 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:16,800 and pull it to the surface, which is a strange kind of witching hour, right? Or a witching time, 219 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:22,640 right? You begin to unearth this stuff that has been buried for a long time and you start to feel 220 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:28,800 never these memories more vividly. And I don't know where I really got this from. I don't remember 221 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:36,560 anyone saying share stuff with your friends. But I'll remember sitting on a couch in your apartment, 222 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:43,920 a big, long hardwood floors. And in the evening, and I was tired of being on a plane. And I said 223 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:49,920 to you, and just as the words were coming that I was going to share something, I actually thought 224 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:57,360 I will A, be struck by lightning. And that's okay, I'll just die. B, you will reject me. I'm tired. 225 00:24:57,360 --> 00:25:03,760 And I'll just say screw you. I don't know what I just but but I did think these things. I did 226 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:10,160 have this trepidation. And I said, I think something very simple. Chris, I had a couple of years where 227 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:16,160 I was really bullied. And to me, the moment after that breath, for you, it may have been nothing, 228 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:24,080 half a second, it was like expanse of time, where the clock goes, and everything stops and the 229 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:32,080 colors change. I'm suspended in this moment, where I am bringing out the most painful thing I can say. 230 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:39,120 And do you remember this? I remember the conversation. You have since told me what it meant to you, 231 00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:43,120 but it didn't seem like a big deal to me at the time. You're watching a movie, it's just me saying, 232 00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:47,200 hey, God, I was young, had these hard years. Yeah, it's like you were bullied. So was I. 233 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:52,560 So the interior and the exterior are wildly different. And you said from what I remember, 234 00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:59,440 oh man, that that sucks. And I had some similar experiences. And just to continue for a moment 235 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:05,920 with this, in that interior and exterior play, and I will say this listeners, 236 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:15,440 in the moment after you normalized and just said, whatever, that happened to me too. But 237 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:20,880 and we're there. I was very tired. And I think when you've been holding a weight for we were talking 238 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:28,240 25 years, right? If there's an incredible exhaustion after that. And I think I said to you, Chris, 239 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:33,680 I need to go to sleep right now. And you're like, no problem. I was gonna I was sleeping on the couch. 240 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:40,960 And I closed my eyes. And this is where life outside of gender masculinity femininity, all of 241 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:46,240 this, this is where the sort of subconscious in the place I think of art and of our deepest shame 242 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:54,880 and also possibility. I closed my eyes and my subconscious had immediately created an image. 243 00:26:54,880 --> 00:27:04,880 And the image was that I or a homeless man with rags and sweat stained armpits was pulling a 244 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:15,040 vast garbage can full of black banana peels, stained coffee cups, stinking reeking garbage. 245 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:24,080 And he or I was pulling it up the stairs into a marble mansion. I think the friendship that we had 246 00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:30,800 was that mansion. It wasn't actually a mansion. I think it was like a beautiful, it was a palace. 247 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:38,880 It was something absolutely grand and spacious and light and beautiful. And here I am pulling in the 248 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:49,680 darkest stuff of me. And I'm in awe of that living or waking dream that was saying, you have done 249 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:55,280 this. And of course, these pieces have to integrate, right? It wasn't that angels came down and stripped 250 00:27:55,280 --> 00:28:01,440 me of my clothes and gave me a beautiful suit, right? But robe over you. But I think ultimately, 251 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:08,080 that's where I am now, I'm wearing the robe now. Right. And it took years, but that place to risk 252 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:13,760 bringing in. And I think that's shame, that's trauma and bringing it to be witnessed. And I want to 253 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:20,080 say this, as you said to me, thank you for being there for that. That probably was the biggest 254 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:25,760 moment of me transforming my shame in my life. But thank you. You've told me that before. And 255 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:33,520 it's, it's funny because having been able to be that person for you, that gives me gratitude too, 256 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:39,520 because I just feel like it's a friendship where we can do that. And if you can, if I can do that 257 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:45,600 for you, you can do that for me. And I can certainly say you have, although there is another time I'd 258 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:52,160 like to talk about that, isn't you and me, a friend who lives outside of the province emailed me one 259 00:28:52,160 --> 00:29:00,000 day. And we had always emailed, we had that kind of rowy kind of relationship. And he was still one 260 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:06,720 of my closest friends, but we'd be like, ah, f you, blah, blah, blah, joking around. Good friends. 261 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:13,360 But this email he sent me was like, completely vulnerable. So he said to me, 262 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:22,320 things have not been good for me. I've been having suicidal thoughts. And I've been seeing a therapist 263 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:31,840 and I'm on medication now. And I've been feeling really rough. And I emailed him back and just 264 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:38,240 said, wow, that's similar to what I said to you, I think it's just, that's really rough. And I've 265 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:44,800 been there because I have been on antidepressants and I have been in therapy. I'm still in therapy. 266 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:51,280 And that's really all I told him and just said, whatever you need, just feel free to email or 267 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:57,520 call or whatever. And his wife emails me the next day and said, I don't know what you said to him, 268 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:06,400 but he's in a great mood now. And I feel good about that. No, that's it. And I'm not trying to 269 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:14,560 say how great I am here. But I do feel really good about that. And it was an anti-bro moment. 270 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:20,320 He took the risk to reach out and you met him in a different place. 271 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:25,440 The one thing I feel about our friendship and our history, I felt it almost from the moment 272 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:32,160 I met you is that you and I have been able to go there without something bad happening. 273 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:39,440 Like a break and then a repair, you mean? No, more like we don't have to have something 274 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:45,200 bad in our life happen before we can talk about our feelings, quote unquote. We could do that 275 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:51,840 before divorce and because one thing I remember when we first met, I was reading that book 276 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:58,560 and you had read it, the Alexandria Quartet. So when we met, I was sitting at the table and I 277 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:05,120 put the book down. He said, oh, you, you, you. Degan says, I can't remember what it was. There 278 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:12,000 was something that you loved about how he described the ocean or the sea hitting the shore. And 279 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,880 there was a line that you really liked. That was 30 years ago, so I don't expect you to remember it. 280 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:22,000 But that's not the kind of thing a guy usually would say. When you start a friendship, you're 281 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,880 getting to know somebody. Right. And so what do you risk early on? And I think I've paid the price 282 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:33,040 sometimes for, this is an interesting topic too, how much we put out and how much we hold back 283 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:40,080 and when we take risks. And certainly I felt like I got burned perhaps for being too enthusiastic 284 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:46,240 very early. And that's a whole other topic. And at that time, maybe it was a bit mediated or titrated, 285 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:52,080 but I think you can pay the price. I know in my own life, I've had people who I think judged me 286 00:31:52,080 --> 00:32:00,560 for being maybe an archetypal sense, having overt feminine energy. For example, if you think about 287 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:06,560 that, I'm talking purely archetypal, not man, woman here, but the idea of flowing creative energy 288 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:13,600 and masculine archetypal energy being controlled and aggressive or contained. 289 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:20,240 And this way, and I think to me, health is a balance of those to say, I will hold myself in 290 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:26,880 here, I will express myself there. And because had you been somebody else, it might have been like, 291 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:32,080 what the F and what are you talking about? Perhaps. But we connected. Or it could have been like, 292 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:38,640 all right, weirdo. Sure. Yeah, exactly. I just want to say for a moment here that the words 293 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:43,520 about your friend and your friend had come reaching out to you and you supporting him, 294 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:51,600 you know, we carry each other. And it seems like we can carry each other with almost the smallest 295 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:58,240 gestures. That's what touches me so much about that he didn't need you to fly out there. No. 296 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:05,360 Or whatever else, he just needed to speak it and be heard. And have you say, I'm there, 297 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,920 is there if there's anything I can do? And I think that seems so simple when you 298 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:15,440 express it now and tell that story. But it's not simple for people who do not have the language. 299 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:22,880 How many times I have said to a male client, who do you have that you could share even that you're 300 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:29,680 having a bad day? Some say, nobody, we don't talk about anything. And so the work then is, 301 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:35,120 who comes to mind if you were going to express something? If you had to, sometimes I say, 302 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:41,040 if someone put a gun to your head and you had to say something to help, there's a gun to my head. 303 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:49,200 Yeah. In a way, the skin goes back to this poem, right? I think we can do a podcast purely on 304 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:54,160 violence. And I think we should. And I think we should have few. We have men's violence against 305 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:59,520 men. We have men's violence against women. We have all kinds of pieces, famicide even. It's a huge 306 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:08,080 topic. But I do think if we go back to the poem, this finesse and rain, this ballet and murder, 307 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:15,840 this let's say, this physicality, strength and vulnerability, right? How do we work that? 308 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:21,120 How do we work that within this male script? And just to say this piece around them reaching out, 309 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:26,800 you, I think that's a way of being held. He was held in that and we do it in little ways. 310 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:33,760 One of the things after my first breakup with a serious girlfriend was my first girlfriend. And 311 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:41,360 we lasted for three years. And so when we broke up, I didn't know what to do as myself. And she 312 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:49,920 referred to me as overly sensitive and I cried a lot. And I would consider myself sensitive person. 313 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:57,200 I take things very personally and that's something I've had to work on. And so I'm not an aggressive 314 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:04,640 guy. I could count on two or three fingers the number of times I've actually been violent, 315 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:10,880 maybe a little more with siblings when I was a kid. So this idea, I always talk about how my 316 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:17,040 primary value is kindness. And I've had people scoff at me. Once someone asked me in a job interview 317 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:22,400 what I valued most. And that's what I said. I didn't even expect to say that, but that's what I said. 318 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:29,360 And then they reworked the question so that I would say something else, right? And in the 319 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:36,240 long run, I think that actually kindness has served me well in the workplace. But what my tendency 320 00:35:36,240 --> 00:35:45,680 takes me away from is the fact that as you say in the poem, some people really get something out of 321 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:53,600 being aggressive and expressing things. Yeah. What's that movie Goon? It's a movie about hockey. 322 00:35:54,240 --> 00:36:02,880 That's got Jay Perusial. He's a Canadian actor. And he talks about how hockey players will get into 323 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:08,720 fights. And afterwards, they'll be like, good fight, good fight. And in my mind, it's like, 324 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:18,720 why would you say that? In that moment, you hated each other. And this is a world that I don't 325 00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:25,440 belong to. And as I mentioned, I also got bullied as a kid. And I must have weighed three pounds at 326 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:33,920 age 10. So I was super skinny. I did run around a lot. I played sports a lot, but I could eat everything 327 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:41,600 in my house and still not gain weight. And being that person who couldn't defend himself, 328 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:46,000 like people always talk about how you have to learn to defend yourself when you're a kid. 329 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,840 For me, it was always like, if I learned to fight, I would still lose every fight. 330 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:55,040 Right. Just because of my lack of bulk. It makes a big difference, really, doesn't it? 331 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:59,360 Yeah. When the kids in my class, a couple of them had, quite a few of them had failed a few 332 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,920 grades and they worked on farms. Oh, and so they would be older as well. 333 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,760 They were older and bigger. And also, the sad, the terrible thing is also, 334 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:12,400 there was a lot of violence in a lot of these families. So they actually were trained in a way. 335 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:17,040 They could see what could be done and what was done to them. So it's a really different world. 336 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:25,360 Right. Yeah. And so I think about, I read an article about a mixed martial arts fighter. 337 00:37:26,240 --> 00:37:33,760 And he was poetic about the beauty of the violence in mixed martial arts. I can't stand 338 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:40,800 watching it. Like, to me, it's a dumb sport. I think it's reprehensible myself. But there's 339 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:50,080 something in it where people find something energizing and exciting. And I don't know, 340 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:56,880 we talked a bit in sports about how it's this kind of gladiator thing. And again, 341 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:03,920 there's that finesse and rage. And so first thing I thought, when I thought about that in terms of 342 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:12,240 hockey, Marty McSorley, the enforcer and Wayne Gretzky, the guy he was protecting. And there's 343 00:38:12,240 --> 00:38:18,960 a friendship, right? There's an integration of these forces within two bodies. Right. Yeah. And 344 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:25,520 those of you who are listening who are under 50th, when Wayne Gretzky out traded to the LA Kings, 345 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:31,760 he demanded that Marty McSorley come along because he felt he needed someone like that to 346 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:38,480 other team goons off of him. Yeah. And that was a shield. But there's that's a loving thing to do 347 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:46,880 in a way like you are. I am protecting you. And you are going to do great things because of my 348 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:54,400 protection. Yeah. And that's also old school male female relationships too, right? Very much 349 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:59,200 how that archetypal kind of archetypal. I think we might need to get our heads around that and take 350 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:21,040 a break. Welcome back to what kind of man are you? Well, we have been speaking about in a sense, 351 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:27,280 these two, these kind of polarities, I suppose, in one sense, vulnerability and the other a kind of 352 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:36,320 shielding or physical adeptness or violence. And this brings to mind a Facebook comment that we 353 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:44,960 had just recently, someone saying, could you do a podcast on raising a boy today? And that certainly 354 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:50,960 we will get on this because that's a question that comes up so often. And just to plant a seed of 355 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:58,320 some of the things we would talk about in that would be that I don't want to see, let's say, 356 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:05,200 violence or let's say aggressiveness and vulnerability. I don't want to put a judgment 357 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:13,760 on the places, particularly aggression, aggression and vulnerability, because growing up as a boy, 358 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:21,280 there are arrows, right? There are slings of arrows. And so how do you mediate that? And I think 359 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:27,440 ultimately, just to give it all away, I think what we're looking at is a way to strengthen the 360 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:35,920 ability to be vulnerable at certain times and also the ability to withstand or stick up for yourself, 361 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:42,400 whatever form that is. And I think there's a lot of other pieces, but I think that would be a central 362 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:49,120 core for me to look at how to raise boys in this time. And I will say the last thing is that they're 363 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:56,560 both equally important because I was an example where I did not know how to defend through language 364 00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:04,720 or physicality or even through internal worth. It doesn't have to be that you become a martial 365 00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:12,160 arts fighter to be able to hold your ground. It is a lot to do with your inner sense of the worst. 366 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:20,000 That will take you far without it and then with bullying, shame or the very difficult things 367 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:25,200 that can happen. Abuse, sexual abuse, being targeted by a teacher in a class and being 368 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:31,840 shamed, whatever may have happened, that's the deadly place. When we're raising boys, 369 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,440 we're teaching them how to be men. It's not the whole thing, right? But certainly, 370 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:44,800 same with girls. And there's nuance to this because there are trans kids, there are tomboy's, 371 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:50,320 there are boys who are just more feminine and there are girls who are more masculine, etc. etc. 372 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:58,560 So when we raise kids, we want them to be good people. But we live in a culture where they are 373 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:05,280 gendered whether we want them to be or not. And they are seen as that gender. Where I'm going 374 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:11,600 with this because I do think this is a whole other topic for another episode is how do we learn? 375 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:17,600 How do we learn to be men? How have we learned to be men? It takes us a little outside the 376 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:22,480 friendship thing, but you were just talking to me about this. One of the subjects that 377 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:28,960 Chris and I have been talking about is mentorship, which I think stand adjacent to friendship. And 378 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:36,160 I mentioned earlier that of course one of the differences is it has a hierarchy to it. I don't 379 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:42,640 know how you feel, Chris. I feel we don't speak about mentorship very openly. We might in particular, 380 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:49,120 like perhaps there's a corporate culture and there's a culture within where one person, man, 381 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:54,960 let's say, takes on another and leads them through in a law firm in this or that. Sure. But that's 382 00:42:54,960 --> 00:43:01,360 not usually gender related. That's not gender related. And it's also it's sort of prescribed in 383 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:07,120 a particular workplace. But I just feel like we don't speak about mentorship yet. It's happening 384 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:13,680 all the time. And I'd like to bring a couple of examples of mentorship that I find very touching, 385 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:20,000 particularly around music. And I think one idea, perhaps why mentorship is not so openly spoken 386 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:25,360 about is that I think there's still part of the mass script of a kind of individualism, 387 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:35,280 a kind of sense of I get there on my own. Well, what I'll say about individualism is that this 388 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:40,320 is an experience I still have to this day. And I've had since I was a little kid, which is 389 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,720 when I don't know how to do something, I get really mad at myself. 390 00:43:44,720 --> 00:43:50,320 Right. Even though there's no reason for me to have known how to do it. And it's usually around 391 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:57,280 something handy, right? Which you should have known how to do this. So, you know, but nobody ever 392 00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:06,240 taught me how to fix a downspout. I got mad at myself once because I couldn't do it. But there 393 00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:11,600 is this idea, this is what it brings to mind with individualism is you're kind of shamed for not 394 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:19,840 knowing something as if you should have been born with it. Well, that actually leads very well into 395 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:27,440 my question, Degan, which is, you know, you talked about these mentors who you never met. 396 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,600 Did you, is there someone who was a mentor to you in your actual life? 397 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:37,120 That's a great question. It's interesting, this question, because I think one of the, 398 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:43,200 when I grew up the way I did, I, we talk about individualism. And another way to look at it is 399 00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:50,720 that those of us who grew up without a lot of, say, emotional support have to learn to do things on 400 00:44:50,720 --> 00:44:59,120 our own. And so it becomes very difficult to reach out for help. And you kind of think, 401 00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:04,880 I certainly thought for a long time, I can do it all myself. And then I reached a point where it 402 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:10,240 was actually, I can't, I'll answer this question in different ways. One was I'm thinking about you, 403 00:45:10,240 --> 00:45:16,640 because we used to meet weekly at Poppers Pub and other places and exchange writing. 404 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:22,960 Right. And there's something about, about showing a piece of writing. We still do this now. We did 405 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:29,280 this last night, two nights ago. And to show a piece of writing and to have you say, here it's 406 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:35,520 working here, it's not, that's mentorship. That's, you're saying, what I've seen in my 407 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:42,000 understanding of literature and, and here's my take. And that took a very long time for me to be 408 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:49,360 able to ingest and, and make, and now it's easy, but it wasn't. And so I would say you and others 409 00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:55,600 in that way were mentors. I think a good friend of mine named Stan Draglin, who passed away a 410 00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:01,680 couple of years ago. He was a dear friend. He began Brick Magazine and Brick Books. And he 411 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:08,080 published actually a lot on masculinity as well. And he was older than me by about 30 years, 25 412 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:15,840 years. It wasn't in an explicit way. We did, he did edit my work at times. But I think he, he was 413 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:28,960 an older man who had remarkable experience in reading and in thinking, in consciousness of 414 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:34,400 how we do approach a sentence, how to approach a work of art if you're trying to write it, 415 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:40,480 or even a project. And there was something about his integrity and in everything he did 416 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:45,680 and talks he would give. But I was around for five years when I lived in St. John's. And I think 417 00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:50,640 that was a kind of informal mentorship. But I suppose one of the beautiful things was too, 418 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:55,600 we used to play music together. Right. He would bring these songs from the 30s, you know. And so 419 00:46:55,600 --> 00:47:00,080 he would, yeah, he would be a mentor of music in a way. He would say, let's play Rock Island Wine. 420 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:04,240 I think that was more from the 50s. And I would come out and say, sure. And now let's play Bizarro 421 00:47:04,240 --> 00:47:12,160 Love Triangle. And so we exchanged, right. So musical polyglot. Yes. And I know we talk about 422 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:16,800 mentorship and friendship. I think sometimes they can blend because there were moments where he felt 423 00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:22,160 like he was the man of letters, right? With this, with this history. And I was like, whoa, 424 00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:25,840 I could learn a lot. And there were times where I'm like, yeah, you know, I'm going to 425 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:31,200 play this guitar riff and we could share back and forth. So first, I'm going to tell you a 426 00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:35,920 joke because you brought that segment in. Oh, we didn't do dad joke of the week yet. 427 00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:41,920 We're doing it now. I'm in a requested knock knock. Who's there interrupting cow? 428 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:53,280 Not doing it. Oh, terrible. All right. Okay, dads can be friends or whatever. 429 00:47:53,280 --> 00:48:01,280 A question. We were talking about mentorship. I think what is coming to me here is that 430 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:10,640 I don't think the male script has a lot of sub clauses around mentorship, right? And I'm thinking 431 00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:16,320 a lot about writers or musicians here. So I know more about them than, I don't know, than lawyers. 432 00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:23,200 But I think they end up certainly mentoring one another in different ways. I'm thinking about 433 00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:30,800 James Joyce, who was very influenced and deeply impacted by Ibsen, the playwright, who I think 434 00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:37,280 he felt, oh, here's someone who is writing words and dialogue as they are spoken, 435 00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:42,400 which when he did that in Dubliners, he couldn't get Dubliners published for about a decade because 436 00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:48,880 it was obscene to many publishers. And in fact, that happened to him throughout his publishing 437 00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:55,920 life. Ulysses was banned and that. But all to say, he knew very early on that he needed a teacher. 438 00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:04,480 In a way, very arrogant and brilliant mind who he rejected Yates way early on and said, 439 00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:09,040 what, you don't have anything to teach me. He said something about Yates. This is funny to switch 440 00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:16,800 the mentorship role. He said, I've met Yates when it's too late for him. How's that for self-confidence? 441 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,000 And you know, I think he knew himself. I could use some of that. 442 00:49:20,720 --> 00:49:27,360 So I think we artists find those we need. And I wanted to tell two quick stories that I 443 00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:34,080 absolutely love in music. One was there's a beautiful and brilliant autobiography by Bruce 444 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:40,240 Bernstein. I forget the title. And if you can get it on audio, he reads it and it's wonderful. 445 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:46,640 And in it, he talks about being influenced by Bob Dylan early on. And you can hear it very much 446 00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:53,120 in those first albums. And one day he, I think he's he's put out is maybe like it was the Born 447 00:49:53,120 --> 00:50:01,520 to Run album. And a backstage, he in some event, he meets Dylan. And so just like we would be with 448 00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:08,560 someone who has met so much to us, he puts out his hand and Bob Dylan says, if there's anything I can 449 00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:16,000 do for you and means it, you know, and Bruce Bernstein thinks as if you could do any more than 450 00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:22,800 you've already. But I thought the acknowledgement of that that struck me as as rare that this 451 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:27,040 particularly between men, you know, particularly you think about, you know, Kendrick Lamar and 452 00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:32,000 Drake right now, you know, this this these that extreme, but these kind of professional jealousies, 453 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:37,280 let's say. And here's these people absolutely saying you meant so much to me. The craft of our 454 00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:42,720 art is so important. And there's just one other short one that I love. There's a writer named Alex 455 00:50:42,720 --> 00:50:47,600 Ross, who is the staff writer for music in New Yorker. And he's written a brilliant book. I 456 00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:52,080 keep using brilliant, but they are they are I'll stand by it, called The Rest is Noise, 457 00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:59,120 which is a history of 20th century classical music. And there's a moment where Igor Stravinsky, 458 00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:04,960 right of spring composer, is in a bar in New York, I think it's New York, and Charlie Parker is 459 00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:11,920 playing, you know, the great saxophonist of the bebop era. And Charlie Parker spy Stravinsky, 460 00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:16,720 you know, sitting at a table. Yeah, I recognize recognize him and is picking up his scotch. 461 00:51:16,720 --> 00:51:23,040 And Charlie Parker, genius as he was, blends in the opening of Right of Spring. Wow, 462 00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:30,400 something like that. This minor slippery melody and Stravinsky chokes and is, it is, you know, 463 00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:35,360 he's scotch down and looks up. And there's Charlie Parker, there's this nod to 464 00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:40,320 how much he's meant to in this little moment, you know, yeah, yeah, it's beautiful. 465 00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:49,520 So I just want to mention something else. And we had talked about it recently, the tragically hip. 466 00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:56,720 I remember sitting with my daughter, I have two daughters and a son and my daughter, who's 14, 467 00:51:56,720 --> 00:52:03,040 almost 15. We were in Huntsville at a cottage and Gordon Downey had been diagnosed with brain 468 00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:08,400 cancer. This was his last show. And I think it was. And it was televised on the one in Kingston. 469 00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:14,160 Yeah. Yes. And I wanted her to stay up for this. So she's sitting on my lap. I'll never forget it. 470 00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:19,520 And we're listening to them, all of these songs that I think have really been for us and for many, 471 00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:25,040 many people, a kind of soundtrack to our lives. We were about their age, right? We're about their age. 472 00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:31,600 And so everything from, you know, nautical disaster, I'm blow at high dough and New Orleans is sinking. 473 00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:37,040 New Orleans is sinking right through all the way through, you know, locked in a trunk of a car 474 00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:46,160 and on and on poets and here is this band on stage. And, you know, there are moments that they know 475 00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:51,520 this is their last show and they have known each other literally their entire lives or certainly 476 00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:57,360 since 16, 17 years old. And there are moments there are hugs. There are moments where they're 477 00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:03,840 kissing on the lips and they are hugging and they are crying in front of millions of people. 478 00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:11,920 And I think I heard a woman on Facebook say how rare that was to see and how beautiful and almost 479 00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:22,240 how relaxed she could feel that men could actually show show love in this way. And yeah, cool. 480 00:53:22,240 --> 00:53:25,840 Okay. So you've thrown me some difficult ones. The last one was not so difficult, 481 00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:30,720 but you asked if I was a feminist and it's just great question. But, you know, these are all 482 00:53:30,720 --> 00:53:35,920 podcasts in themselves. Yeah. And I feel like I am. But you go back to episode two for that. 483 00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:44,240 Have you ever said to a male friend or someone who's not your family who's male that you love them? 484 00:53:44,240 --> 00:53:49,920 Or would you? Or would I say that to you? And no. Oh, then probably not. Or would you? Or yeah, 485 00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:59,040 anyway. Yeah, it's a good question because it is so wrapped up in romantic love. 486 00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:05,600 Like, I think it's fair to say we love each other and we have love for each other. 487 00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:11,120 Yeah. And I could easily say I love this guy, but that's not the same thing. 488 00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:14,960 A little hint of bro. Yeah, it's a little bit bro-y. 489 00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:22,160 I guess not. And I got to be honest, I don't know 490 00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:32,400 that I would. I don't think I'd even say it to my brother. Sorry, Tim. But 491 00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:41,120 it's sort of a shame, but at the same time, is that necessary? I don't know. I mean, 492 00:54:42,240 --> 00:54:50,000 I think it's where there's a level of vulnerability and caring that is a form of love. 493 00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:54,080 Listening itself can be a form of love. Just what you did for your friend. 494 00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:59,840 Yeah. Right. And it's not romantic love. And that doesn't make it any 495 00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:08,800 same. It's no different from having family members. You love your family. So that's where I would 496 00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:14,640 land. I guess it just feels weird because I love you feels like a pronouncement. 497 00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:22,000 And even when it's a partner, it's super vulnerable. Yes. So that's my answer. 498 00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:25,840 It's not very, I don't find it very satisfactory, but there we are. 499 00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:32,320 And I just want to say, I certainly feel we have love and care and I'm holding it. 500 00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:40,160 I'm not asking. No, that's deep to be told that at all in that one. Because I feel, 501 00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:45,680 our friendship is strong. You've been one of my best friends, half my life, two-thirds of my life. 502 00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:53,920 But I do think there are also generations around this. Language means something to different 503 00:55:53,920 --> 00:56:01,520 times. And I remember a female client once who said, my father will not say those words, 504 00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:07,680 but he will spend 18 hours looking at the very best car for me. And he'll come out and say, 505 00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:13,280 I just want, you know, in his quiet manner, I just want you to know that I've come, you know, 506 00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:20,880 50 best cars and I created that for you to kind of compare me. And it's like, I've understood 507 00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:25,120 that that's love. Right. And that happens in a lot of... 508 00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:32,160 Well, on that note, I just want to say to my listeners, I love all of you. 509 00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:39,600 You love them, but you don't let me. Oh, man. We're going to have a fight after this. 510 00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:46,400 And we may hug at the end of... So, yeah, thanks everyone for listening. I just want to 511 00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:53,760 say that if you love us, please give us a five-star rating on your favorite podcast platform 512 00:56:53,760 --> 00:57:01,680 and say nice things about us and tell your friends. We're sort of speaking into the void at the moment. 513 00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:07,200 So we'd love to love to hear your thoughts and your opinions and feel free to get in touch with us. 514 00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:12,480 Listeners, I love you more than Chris. Oh, well. I just want to say. Yeah, sure he does. Yeah. 515 00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:25,040 What kind of man are you is hosted by Chris Garbutt and Degan Davis, 516 00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:31,600 produced by Chris Garbutt at VQC Media. You can support us at buymeacoffee.com 517 00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:37,440 slash Chris Garbutt. Music composed and performed by Degan Davis. You can buy Degan's book at 518 00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:55,600 brickbooks.ca. Thank you to all our supporters and listeners.