Welcome to the Live with Sondra podcast where
we dive deep into business, tech, and entrepreneurship.
Hosted by me, Sondra Shannon, CEO of GateMaster
Technology. Each show, we explore the latest
trends in ticketing attractions and guest experience,
helping you stay ahead of the curve in this ever
-evolving world of attractions and events. Whether
you're an industry expert or just getting started,
this show has insights to inspire and empower
you. Today's episode is sponsored by GateMaster
Technology, your trusted partner for ticketing
and attraction management solutions. Let's get
started with the show. Alright guys, welcome
to the Live with Sondra show. I'm your host,
Sondra Shannon, CEO of GateMaster Technology,
and I'm very excited about today's guest. We're
going to be talking about live experience data
and insights. to audience impact. So this is
going to be a fun conversation because as you
guys know, I love to talk data and I love to
talk entertainment. I love to talk shows, live
entertainment. And before I mention who today's
guest is, let me just start with a quick word
from our sponsor. This episode is brought to
you by GateMaster Technology, your partner in
powerful, flexible, and reliable online ticketing.
GateMaster Technologies. online ticketing platform
is built for attractions and entertainment venues
that want more control, better guest experience,
and real -time insights, all without the headache
of outdated systems or clunky integrations. With
GateMaster, you get seamless online mobile ticket
sales, live capacity and attendance tracking,
easy to manage refunds, reschedules, and upgrades,
and it is integrated with our point -of -sale
and access control systems so your guests can
enjoy a smooth experience from purchase to entry.
And here's what's the best part. If your current
ticket provider isn't cutting it, we will make
that switch easy for you. GateMaster's competitive
replacement program makes it easy and affordable
to upgrade. We'll help you migrate your data.
train your team, and get you up and running fast.
No long -term contracts, no surprises, just better
service, better tech, and better support. If
you're ready to take your ticketing to the next
level, visit GateMaster .com to learn more. GateMaster
Technology, smart ticketing starts here. So let's
get back to the show. Today's guest, Cody Lassen,
is... a Tony Award -winning producer, and the
force behind Cody Lassen and Associates. With
a Grammy nomination and impressive portfolio
spanning theater, film, and music, my kids are
going to love this show. You guys know my kids
are in theater. Cody has helped shape some of
the most successful live productions of the past
decade, collectively grossing over... Ooh, this
is a big number. His production boasts a 42 .3
% recoupment rate, more than double the industry
average, and providing that creative vision backed
by data can drive serious results. Cody is passionate
about the magic of live entertainment. He literally
can't live without it. Cody brings a rare blend
of artistic sensibility and business strategy.
On this episode of Live with Sondra, he'll share
how meaningful audience insights are transforming
the way stories are told and sold on stage. So
please help me welcome today's guest, Cody, to
the show. Cody, thank you for being here. Happy
to be here. Thanks for having me. Of course.
How was that bio? Was that okay? Did we miss
anything? You got it. You should be my publicist.
I'll hire you. I mean, I looked at that number,
that $900 million number. I can't remember the
exact number. It's like, wow, what an incredible
accomplishment. Yeah, you know, I think even
within the entertainment industry, people don't
quite understand that Broadway is a $4 billion
a year industry. And when something hits in our
world, it hits unlike. a film or tv show ever
can because it can run for decades much much
like uh themed entertainment right this isn't
an opening weekend of a movie it's something
can run for for decades and decades yeah i know
it's amazing i mean i just saw so i've seen two
shows recently uh one on broadway i saw i finally
got to see book of mormon nice i knew the music
well because it's one of my son's favorite and
and i don't know if i if i if you know this about
me but all three of my kids are in live theater.
They're live actors. Yeah, so the two of them
are getting ready to do a show in a couple of
weeks that's opening Ride the Cyclone here. Oh,
I know the show well, yeah. With the Mile High
Youth Theater. So they're doing the teen version.
So I'm very excited about that. And both my daughter
and son are in it, which is just wild to me.
How exciting. And by some strange coincidence,
my... My closest friend originated one of those
roles off -Broadway when it played New York many
years ago. Wow! That's amazing. I'm really excited
for this show. I really love the... There's so
many dimensions to it. Yeah, it's fun. It's quirky.
Yeah, right. I'm super excited about it. I've
been trying not to get spoilers because I have
not seen it live. But yeah, I got to see... Book
of Mormon this year, and one thing that I'm really
excited about, I got to see Phantom of the Opera
in London on the West End. Very nice. His Majesty's
Theatre. That was... It's about to come back
to Broadway. It closed not that long ago, and
it's now being, still with Andrew Lloyd Webber
in charge, but it's being reconceived as an immersive
walkthrough experience instead of a traditional
sit in your seat and passively receive it kind
of show. Wow. My daughter was telling me about,
I mean, that was just incredible to see in London.
And yeah, the chandelier, I don't want to spoil
it for anybody, but that was so cool. I mean,
we even left going like Disney level immersiveness,
right? Sure. Yeah. And that's, you know, technology
that's now 30 years old. So imagine this new
version they're building that, you know, is being
built with 2025 technology. Wow. Well, that's
pretty cool. Well, I, uh, I'm excited to talk
to you. I know this is going to be a great show,
first of all, because I've learned so much about
theater as a theater mom. I myself have never,
I don't have the, I don't have the ability to
sing. That's what's always held me back. But
also, um, I do talk about it on stage. Like I'm
scared to death still to be on stages like this,
this live show. Was a labor of love because my
team literally had to push me out there and it
did take a lot of work. And as you know, working
in theater, you know, there's a lot of training
that goes to doing even just something like this.
But the live theater is a whole other level,
in my opinion, of what you do. And I watch my
kids work so hard. And so, like you said, in
terms of. of entertainment it's something that
runs for a very long time and four billion dollars
is i did not know that number on broadway but
that is uh that that is huge oh yeah it's you
know a major and that four billion is just broadway
shows and broadway tours and if you then you
know include non -profit theaters and community
theaters and regional theaters Truly a huge economic
force, but because it's kind of distributed all
over, I think most people don't quite realize
the revenue that it brings in. In New York, for
instance, it's about a 10 times multiplier. So
for every $100 spent on a ticket, there's people
going to restaurants, staying at hotels, buying
souvenirs, all in the area. And that's not just
Broadway, but even local regional theaters. Most
people have a drink before the show or have dinner
after the show. It can be really kind of a nice
way to lift up an entire community in terms of
all the other businesses and then think of the
companies who build the sets and who rent the
lights and the web of that ecosystem goes pretty
deep. Yeah, it's a major economy when you look
at it from that perspective, which is interesting
because we're going to be talking about data
and revenue management for these live experiences
today. And so I have a question for you if you
don't mind me jumping into some questions. Go
for it. As a producer, how do you leverage customer
data to inform your marketing and revenue management
strategies for a live production? This will probably
blow your mind. But as a producer, if I'm producing
a show on Broadway, I have zero access to my
customer data. I don't know who they are. I don't
know. You know, we can pixel people and track
kind of where they came from. But the ticketing
providers. sure retain that data and will only
share it with me in the aggregate and only if
i pay for it so i don't have names or email addresses
of the people buying tickets to shows that i'm
i'm shepherding and producing um which is just
mind -boggling so unfortunately we don't get
to use data in a way that in any other industry
you would be able to you know develop relationships
with your audience and kind of learn about them
and do lookalike, you know, modeling and targeting.
And so the ticketing companies will do that,
again, for a fee. But a big part of my job as
a producer is figuring out how do I try to figure
out who these consumers are, right? So, you know,
you can, you know, have email QR codes to sign
up in the theater to enter a drawing or, you
know, there's kind of ways we can encourage people
to proactively tell us who they are, but we don't.
As producers, we don't get access to that raw
data, which is frustrating. Yeah, I bet. And
this is a shameless plug. All customers get access
to their customer data because it is such an
important part of understanding who your audience
is. Well, with that in mind, you know, what is
one key piece of data that you find most actionable,
understanding that you don't have access to that
when trying to optimize ticket sales or audience
engagement? I mean, for me, the the kpi that
i i live and die by and breathe like oxygen is
rev pass which is revenue per available seat
um which is basically combining average ticket
price with percent capacity um so it's just it's
a simple calculation it's the seats that are
available to be sold by the public for a given
performance or a given period of time so you're
removing any seat kills right if we have critics
or press in there those tickets were never on
sale to the public sometimes you have to remove
a few seats to put in an audio booth so you take
those out and then you just take the total gross
for that performance or period of time and divide
it by the seats available um and and we stole
this from the hospitality industry where in the
hotel business revenue for available room is
the key thing in the airline business revenue
for available flight file i think it's called
um but that that's kind of the one kpi that I
love because it instantly tells you how a show
is doing versus, you know, you can have a very
high average ticket price, which I think a lot
of people measure show success by that. And I
always tell people, listen, if that's your measure
of success, I can find one sucker to buy a five
thousand dollar ticket and your average ticket
price will shoot through the roof, but you'll
still have a half empty theater. So that's the
one I love that combines both capacity and ticket
pricing. Yeah, I do love that. It's interesting
because I forgot to mention I got to see. So
we bought tickets like a last minute, like two
hours before that on Broadway where you could
go get the tickets. I saw Alicia Keys' Hell's
Kitchen. Nice. This year, which was also, I mean,
I had my daughter with me. We were just falling
our eyes out. But it's interesting because I
didn't think about those ticket sales that are
happening right down to the very last minute.
Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, that's clearly like
dynamic pricing. You know, listen, there's an
Arab exclusivity that some of these Broadway
shows are, you know, selling eight, nine thousand
dollar tickets each, like the big hit shows.
Sure. And I always tell people that, you know,
two things. I'll go back to the hotel industry
for a minute here. It's the same way that if
you want a hotel at the last minute on a popular
week in New York City, you're going to pay a
lot for that. If you can plan ahead of time and
be a little flexible, you're going to pay a lot
less. And New York City has the Four Seasons,
and we also have the Holiday Inn Express. And
they both provide the same service, a bed and
a place to sleep, but two different levels. But
I like to remind people that dynamic ticket pricing
goes both ways. So I want to maximize my revenue.
And if the market is telling us tickets are $500,
I'd rather that money go to the show and all
the people who made it happen versus a ticket
reseller, and they'll just keep that. But then
on the flip side, like your situation, if two
hours before a curtain, I'm sitting at a bunch
of unsold inventory, I would much rather get
$20 for that ticket than that empty seat, than
a seat bringing us zero revenue. So it's a risky
strategy, but a strategy I share with a lot of
friends visiting from out of town is you can't.
get the ticket to the thing you really want to
see. Sometimes an hour or two before a curtain,
you'd be surprised that even the hot sold out
show has some emergency or VIP tickets that didn't
get used that all of a sudden become available.
Yeah, we got the balcony seat. Yeah, it was amazing.
My daughter was just on cloud nine. It was her
birthday. It was in January. We were there for
Intix. I go to Intix almost every other year.
I try to go every year. And really that's because
I'm a nerd. There's no reason to. I'm stuck with
the ticketing provider that the theater tells
me I have to use. I have very little access to
it, but I'm a ticketing geek. So I'm a big fan
of Intix. I mean, I'm a big fan of Intix too,
because I think there's so much that we can learn
as a community on how to best serve. those who
are attending these events, be it on Broadway
or even if we're just talking attractions, which
is our background. And I love the, you know,
I'll say this. I've been in ticketing since I
started with Gate Master in 2001. So a very long
time I've been doing ticketing. And for many
years, you might as well have been a pariah,
right? Like a piranha or something, you know,
people would be like, you're in ticketing and
they'd run the other way, right? Because, you
know, there were negative things that were going
on in the ticketing world. And I think that what's
great about Intix is we're reshaping that. And
I love just networking with colleagues in different
industries that on the surface seem like, well,
they're not related. But what I've learned from
colleagues who work in ticketing and professional
sports and in attractions and in museums and
zoos and aquariums, like at the end of the day,
we're all selling. perishable inventory. And
so I love stealing ideas from other industries
and think, well, wait a minute, if we tweak that
a little bit, I can do what you do in the museum
world and our world. And I think vice versa.
So that's really why I keep going is just that
networking with folks who are selling perishable
inventory, really. A hundred percent. And I think
it's important to see how other people are doing
it. And when they're doing something really well,
I'm a big fan of that kind of like mimic and
mastering it. And you're not going to get that
if you're not talking to other people who are
doing it and bumping against different challenges
than what you're having. Right. That's the kind
of learning I love is, you know, oh, I never
thought of that. That didn't occur to me. Or,
you know, I didn't know you could do that with
that with that ticketing system. Great. Can you
can you show me how that works? Yeah, that's
great. My daughter was an intern this year. at
Intix, which was nice. Oh, very nice. A nice
experience for her. Trying to get her in the
business. She's also the one that I was telling
you was going to be on the show here with Ride
the Cyclone. She's playing, what's the main gal
that's on the stage? There's not a real main
part, but why can't I think of the character's
name right now? I'm not forgetting all the characters.
I remember the show well, but I don't remember
any of the character names. Ocean. Yes. She played
Ocean. Nice. She's getting her Britney Spears
down right now. I'd like to point out to parents
of kids who are getting into theater, more on
the performing side, where most parents very
smartly say have a backup career. But I tell
people the backup career should still be in theater.
What if you want to be a writer or a dancer or
a singer? Maybe your backup career is doing ticketing
for theater. being an accountant for a theatrical
company or doing marketing or press. But like,
if you love the thing, have your backup still
be in that industry. Yeah. Oh, I'll tell you.
I sat across from a mom the other day or on one
of the last shows. I shouldn't say the other
day. It was months ago. And she said to me, she
said, I keep telling my daughter to have a backup
plan. This isn't going to work out. It's too
risky. And I'm like, wow. you ever tell your
kid that i would never tell my kid that i'm gonna
let the world tell them where they've got to
go and i 100 agree with you cody thank you so
much because my daughter is uh one of the co
-producers of this show and she's been working
in marketing and i tell her all the time i'm
like somebody's gonna market these shows yeah
and and that is as much of a challenge as creating
the show right you can have the best musical
on broadway that has ever existed but if you're
not marketing it and discovering who your audience
is, how to reach them cost effectively, how to
talk to them in a way that gets them to click
the buy now button. That's half the battle. I
think a lot of people wrongly or naively assume
if you just build a good thing, people will come.
Well, that doesn't always happen. The hard work
starts after you've built the thing. Yeah. Well,
you know, one of my favorite shows is You're
in Town. Sure. And I think it's back on Broadway
right now, right? Yeah, it's coming off -Broadway
to City Center this season. Off -Broadway. Yeah,
I knew it was going to be in New York. I would
love to see it. I've only seen the kids' version
of it. And my daughter also has played Hope in
that. But what I think is interesting about the
Urinetown story, because it came out right before,
what, a couple months before 9 -11. Oh, that's
right. I forgot about that. Yeah, it's such a
great show, but it had so much, there was so
much noise that it had to compete with in order
to really take off. So it's one that a lot of
people don't know about. But I love the music.
I love this. I just think it's an incredible
show. I love the music. But, you know, kind of
to your point, like you have to be able to market
it. And today, you know, maybe we're not dealing
with something of that, you know, of that because
that was tragic and that took a lot of people's
attention. So it took away from a production
like that. But what I love about. What you just
said is it is difficult to market. You do have
to tell people that it has to happen and you
have to be on top of that. You have to let people
know that you're there. And today, maybe they're
not dealing with that, but they are dealing with
all the other noise. Yeah. And I think a lot
of people just think of the competitive set.
So if we're using the Broadway musical as an
example, what are the other Broadway musicals
people might... spend their money on when in
reality really what we're fighting for is entertainment
dollars right somebody could see a musical they
could go see a football game they could buy a
new you know flat screen tv for their house um
so we're not only looking you know at other shows
and how do we win that that audience member instead
of them seeing the other show it's people have
x amount of dollars and x amount of minutes in
their year that they can you know spend on an
entertainment it's how do we how do we somehow
get into that conversation early on? Um, but
again, it's theme parks, it's, it's museums.
It's, you know, we're, we're competing with entertainment
and leisure in general. Yeah. So you gotta, you
gotta, you gotta be out there marketing. We've
had a lot of people who've talked about marketing
on the show and even, um, you know, uh, I've
done a lot of marketing training myself and one
in particular that I really love it. Talk. They,
they teach you a lot about how you just gotta
be. out there that's actually how I started this
show was was I was doing a marketing training
and the the team that was teaching us just said
you've got to be everywhere and the only way
we could think about it was and and granted it
it served many purposes for us it helped get
known because you've got to get known just like
a show's got to get known but also We knew that
there was information that attractions and live
events and anybody in this industry needed to
get from guests like yourself, like experts who
are doing the work, who understand these systems.
You mentioned learning at Intix. You know, there
are a lot of operators that don't get to attend
these conferences where they can learn, but they
can sit down and watch a show and connect with
somebody like you who's teaching them this, which
brings me to ticketing and scaling for. For the
productions that you're working on, you know,
given your experience with Broadway, given your
experience with Broadway transfers to scaling
productions. Right. What are the primary ticketing
considerations when moving from a smaller venue
to a larger one? Because I know like with the
and I'm sorry, though, with a mile high. youth
theater that the kids go to i mean it's a smaller
one i mean each it's maybe 250 people in the
audience which is still to me right but you know
what are the differences that might have to be
considered uh i mean listen i would always prefer
to put a show in a theater that's slightly too
small um audience capacity wise um just to build
up that artificial demand right if you have 250
tickets to sell you're probably going to have
a higher average ticket price and a higher occupancy
just because there's fewer tickets to you know
be sold and then once you become the hot sold
out show nobody can get a ticket to um that opens
up a lot of doors certainly in terms of revenue
and yield management that means you're you're
raising your prices you're probably slowing down
or turning off discounts completely um but at
some point a show grows and and you can't sustained
being in a 250 seat house or the upside is is
you know alluring and you want to go into a bigger
house um and so what i like to do and my my colleagues
on the ticketing side hate me for is um you know
when we scale a house meaning if you have a broadway
house with let's say you know a thousand seats
in it traditionally you might have five or six
pricing levels right your kind of center front
orchestra is going to be one your sides will
be a little cheaper the back orchestra is going
to be cheaper I want the ability, and I sometimes
get it and I sometimes don't, to have every individual
seat be its own pricing zone. So we can literally
look at a heat map and just change prices as
we see fit and not be locked into these kind
of artificial five zones that were drawn on the
seating chart in the ticketing system probably
30 years ago. And I'm sure it made sense at the
time. but there's there's sometimes just weirdness
that happens in ticket sales right every once
in a while i'll look at a heat map and say well
that's weird why is this little bubble that's
not kind of prime seating really in demand and
selling quickly i i don't know why that is but
there's there's a opportunity to you know raise
our yield there a little bit and raise that and
then vice versa you know sometimes what i think
are good seats the public for whatever reason
just isn't touching and now i want to be able
to have the ability to either just overtly lower
the price or do some more undercover discounting
to kind of move those seats. So I love to have
granular ability to price. I don't always get
it, but that's my wish. Yeah, that's pretty cool.
And I wonder, which kind of brings me to my next
question, when we're looking at attracting diverse
audiences, do you see that happening through
these different price points that you have? I
mean, you mentioned every seat's got a different
price almost. With that strategy? There are some
actual, we're going to set aside X amount of
seats to very purposely get these in the hands
of folks who either maybe couldn't afford theater
otherwise or have never felt welcomed in the
theater. And so we try to do that on almost every
show, is to make sure we're opening the doors
to new audiences and saying, hey, come and visit
us. And I think, A, that's the right thing to
do. But B, that's... a really good business move
because we're developing you know new audiences
um and so we try to do that in every show there's
um uh one of our advertising agencies in the
industry situation interactive um started a great
program years ago um and their goal which they've
now met is that every single public high school
student in new york city will see a broadway
show before they graduate because if you google
it it's on their website i'm missing the percent
but it was something like only 10 of new york
city high school students had seen a broadway
show which is ridiculous they're going to school
in manhattan in the theater capital of the world
and then we have all this unsold inventory every
single year a third of the seats on broadway
are empty not not filled um and so he very smartly
said well wait a minute we've got this dead inventory
that that just is empty seats we've got high
school students who haven't seen a broadway show
um and we know from years and years of research
that if you don't see theater whether it's Broadway
or community theater, by the time you're in high
school, you almost certainly never will in your
entire life. And then if you have a family, your
kids are not going to see theater because that's
not a part of what you do. So we try to make
sure that as often as we can, that we're introducing
folks to theater at a young age. So it just becomes
part of, you know, again, they're considering,
do I go to a theme park? Do I see a baseball
game? Do I see a show? We just kind of want to
be in that conversation. Yeah, and that actually
makes me wonder, you know, when, because I think
that's great. Like I did ticketing for Alcatraz
for probably years. And the contract went over
to a new team, which was sad for us because I
loved doing it. But one of the things that they
did was have, we did have to hold a certain percentage
for students because I think it is important
to have these experiences. But that kind of makes
me wonder. When you mention that if someone doesn't
see theater before the age of, what did you say,
18 or 20? Yeah, if you haven't seen a show by
the time you graduate high school, you probably
won't. Yeah, that's amazing to me because what
a shame that is. But do you know of any benefits
to those who come to watch that, like for students
who are coming? You know, beyond just having
the experience, because like I said, I had the
balcony seats at Hell's Kitchen in January. And
I mean, I was fully immersed in it. And I mean,
like I said, my daughter and I were there because
it's a mother daughter show. It's a show about
a mother daughter's experience and among other
things, because Alicia Keys story. But, you know,
we're both on the balcony crying and it was an
amazing connection for us. But also, you know,
I found so many of these shows. I value them
for so many reasons. But what I'm curious is
for young people, is there something that we've
seen in the research or the data that shows how
this enriches their lives and why we need to
make this available to them? Yeah, I mean, I
can't cite any specific studies, but I certainly
know I've read magazine and newspaper articles
just showing that for kids who are exposed to
music, for instance, do better in math and science.
And that seeing theater, you know, there's proof,
there's been studies done over generations that
makes you a more empathetic person. So, you know,
I'm not the expert in any of those areas, but
I know seeing any kind of arts, whether it's
music or theater or dance, it just makes you
a better, more well -rounded person. Yeah, well,
I know for sure being in theater has huge advantages.
I'm so grateful for, like I said, the kids that...
that the theater that my kids have been, uh,
the community theater that my kids have been
in the training, the having to memorize the deadlines,
the, you know, I I'm so lucky. I don't, I didn't
even have to make any of them show up. Like some
of the other theater moms are complaining because
they have to get their kids to, to, you know,
rehearse and, and study their lines and, and
drag them to the, to practice. But, you know,
for me, my kids, they just, I think it's just
been such a rewarding experience to all of them.
I mean, I'm, I've been very lucky. I don't have
to force them to do it at all. In fact, they
have to force me to take them some days. Right.
Great training in terms of entrepreneurship,
even if you're an actor to know what it's like
to assemble a team, to get a theater, to, to
do contracts, to, to put together a program,
to market and sell tickets. You kind of, especially,
you know, at the, the, non -professional level,
you kind of have to do a little bit of everything
and it's really building a business. Yeah, no,
that's actually a great point I've never thought
about. I really have appreciated the training
that my kids have gotten and I see how much they
grow and I look at it and go, every kid needs
this, right? But not every kid can get on. I
mean, I wasn't the kind of kid that could get
on stage. So, you know, I understand that too.
I'm more, you know, because we need the audience
too. Right. And something you said about selling
the tickets, you know, wanting to fill those
seats. I mean, there's nothing sadder than seeing
the the audience not filled. Right. Especially
with all the time and work that they put into.
I recently went to a my husband and I have both
been involved in circus arts for years. Oh, wow.
Yeah. And and we went to a show in St. Louis.
We had great seats, but man, we had like Cirque
du Soleil level talent and tons of empty seats.
And it just kind of broke my heart for the performers
who put their heart and soul into these things.
It's not a good experience for anyone, right?
The performers feed off that audience energy.
They need that. And the more energy in the audience,
the better the performances are. As an audience
member, you want people around you laughing and
clapping and gasping. That's what live entertainment
is. um and so if yeah if you're in a house that's
kind of half full you know it you lose that magic
and then you know you also kind of think well
wait a minute am i one of the few suckers who
bought a ticket to this thing why is nobody else
here and it's just not a great experience so
we you know most shows especially early on do
struggle to sell tickets and you know until you
kind of build a brand and build awareness um
but we put a lot of effort into it we call it
dressing the house um so even if only half your
tickets are sold for a given performance. There's
a way by how you seat people that you can make
it feel a lot fuller. So on Broadway, for instance,
if you have a performance that just isn't selling.
You might take everyone who bought probably the
lowest priced tickets in the balcony and give
them free upgrades to the orchestra. Now you're
creating a nice little magical customer moment
there because they thought they bought the cheapest
seat in the house and now they're getting a good
seat. But if the balcony is empty and you can
move all those people down below, at least to
all those people, it now feels like a full theater.
The cast certainly can look up there and see
the balcony is empty, but you can at least make
it a better experience for the audience members
down there. Yeah, no, I didn't know about that.
I didn't know about dressing the house. But you
know what, I knew there was a lot of magic happening
in the background. And I love that you said,
you know, it creates a different experience.
But that kind of brings me like, what's some
of the innovation and business models that you
see out there? You know, you've mentioned a lot
about ticketing and talking to other theaters.
But I'm just curious, you know, what's an example
of novel business models that you've seen applied
that are very successful in the live entertainment
space? I mean, we are so behind the times on
Broadway. Part of that is we're locked into the
ticketing providers that the Broadway theater
owners own, right? So I have very little control.
I have to use the ticketing system they tell
me to. I get very little access to it. And we're
just light years behind, I think, many of our
colleagues in the ticketing industry. That being
said, very recently, the two biggest Broadway
ticketing companies, now basically give anyone
API access to the inventory. So now we see, you
know, some third parties crafting things. There's
a great company in the UK called Ticketleap.
And the only thing they do are purchase paths.
So it sits on top of whatever ticketing system
you use. And they have this team of data scientists
who, you know, who try to make sure we don't,
at the top of the funnel, lose all those people
and get as many people to the bottom of the funnel
as we can. And it's all through user design and
making that a smooth process, again, on top of
another ticketing provider. There's another company
whose name I'm blanking on that I met at Intex,
and they started in the sporting world and were
starting to play with their services in the theater
world. And their system is kind of like what
I talked about earlier. If we move people from
the balcony to the orchestra, they developed
an app that, again, works with any other ticketing
system that when you show up, at a stadium for
a sporting game and you're sitting in the balcony
you might get a pop -up that says hey for 12
more for everyone in your party right now we'll
move you you know 10 rows behind the court because
that seat if it's not sold you know 15 minutes
before the game starts probably wouldn't be sold
um so what a great you know little extra revenue
there and we could do the same thing in theater
right if if you're seated in the balcony but
we have a more expensive seat that opened up
that's probably not going to get sold why not
let someone, you know, upgrade themselves on
the spot. Apps like TodayTix, which is started
in theater and is now, you know, family entertainment
centers, theme parks, sporting, I think they
do everything now, but their thing is literally
tickets for today. We're going to give you a
nice discount, but the restriction is, and now
actually they sell tickets further out, but kind
of their bread and butter is, you know, if you
want to see a show today, we will get you the
best possible price. Yeah, that's awesome. You
know, it's interesting. It's interesting that
you brought up the sports side of the business
of ticketing, right? Because I, and even just
when you look at, forget sports, even just like
we have the ball arena here. I went to see, I'm
almost embarrassed to say, but I went to see
New Kids on the Block. Nice. And we bought the
four pack. So we had like the nosebleed seats,
right? Because it was like a group of us just.
They were offering a four -pack, so you didn't
get to pick your seats, which I thought was a
creative way to sell four seats. It was like
a four -pack, friend seats. You're going back
to the 90s, 80s, 90s. I can't remember how they
marketed it, but it was pretty clever. What was
interesting to me because I've actually been
attending some of the ticket broker conferences
just to kind of get an idea for what that looks
like. When you realize that in that industry
too, you've got the issue of the ticket brokers,
right? And you could see the full sections that
were empty because they're probably owned by
those brokers who didn't market the event. Is
that something similar that happens in theater
or are you guys independent of the brokers? No,
we have that issue as well. And, you know, listen,
it's a love -hate relationship because there
are certain shows where, you know, the moment
tickets go on sale, the brokers snap up all the
tickets. And for me as a producer, listen, money
is money. The tickets are sold out. But then
sometimes exactly that happens is, you know,
a broker is speculating, thinking this will be
a sold -out show, buys a ton of tickets, can't
move them on the secondary market. And now even
though those tickets were paid for, I have empty
houses that I... I can't dress, I can't paper
because those tickets are sold and those audience
members might come. But we've done, I think,
a much better job in the past decade or so of
pricing shows at what the market tells us the
shows should be priced at. And historically,
I think we've kind of set our top price and said,
well, if people want to pay that on the secondary
market, we can't control that. But my personal
feelings are if the market is saying that's what
tickets are worth, again, I want that. I want
that money to go to the people who created the
show. So Broadway is heavily unionized. We have
19 different collective bargaining agreements.
And most people get a small percentage of ticket
sales as part of their compensation. So if the
ticket's going to go for 500, I want the writer
and the director and the designers to share in
that and not the ticket reseller necessarily.
Right. Well, hey, maybe that's like an innovation
that needs to happen where we can. figure out
a tech that allows you to dress what you said
dress it's called dress the audience yeah so
we thought papering the house is when you you're
literally giving out complimentary tickets just
to have bodies in the seats um because again
you know you don't want a half empty theater
because then everyone else doesn't have a great
experience so the thinking is if you pay for
the house you're giving those tickets away everyone
has a better experience and hopefully the person
you gave those free tickets to likes the show
and posts about it and talks about it and then
dressing the house is literally just moving where
you're seating people um that can get a little
messy because you know for theater you're buying
a specific sure um and sometimes people don't
want to be moved but typically if you're moving
them from a less desirable location to a better
location they're pretty thrilled about that i'm
sure I'm sure. And I think I've had that happen
to me at shows. It's kind of like getting an
upgrade on a plane, right? Every once in a while,
I only got a middle seat. That's what was left.
And I got bumped up to Economy Plus on the aisle.
Great. I'm thrilled. Yeah, that's awesome. Well,
that kind of brings me to memorable experiences
beyond theater. I know, I think we mentioned
that you've also done film, right? Yeah. I'm
sorry. Our fire alarm is going off in the building.
oh no i can't hear it okay hopefully you don't
gotta run out of the building no if i see people
running i will run uh yeah so uh film is something
we got into during covid um when we we literally
couldn't make theater right the the government
and federal government all the states said this
is not a good idea to have a thousand you know
strangers sitting in a a dark room and close
quarters together And so it was really just a
pivot to say, well, here's a way for me to employ
people and to tell stories. And it's really,
you know, the storytelling element is pretty
similar, right? It's creating a story, getting
a writer and a director and a team together.
The nice thing about film is that on the theater
side, for Broadway theaters at least, there's
only three privately held companies that own.
uh almost all of the 41 broadway theaters so
you can have a wonderful show but at the end
of the day i need one of these three privately
owned companies to say it's your turn you can
use my real estate now um we're on the film side
you could just make a film right now now maybe
it won't get you know sold to a big studio or
to a big streamer but you can just make it you
don't have to wait for someone to say okay you
can use my real estate now well that's what's
kind of cool about the the Roku, right? For lack
of a better word. I've actually seen quite a
few theater actors in films in recent years because
my daughter follows all of her favorites. I get
to watch them by way of her. I honestly wouldn't
know. She keeps me cool. Nice. She keeps me cool
as far as that goes. It's been really cool to
see a lot of theater actors transferring over
into film. What's his name? I can't believe I
cannot think of his name right now because she
she she loves this guy. He was in the Elton John.
Oh, nice. I can picture his face. You know what
I'm talking about? Right. Yeah. Yeah. But he
started off in theater. And, you know, I just
I just think there's something really cool about
it because theater actors just bring such a different
feel. I mean, they're just they're amazing actors.
You know, we tend to get. actors on broadway
on both ends of their career early and sure when
they're peaking because for better or for worse
film and tv pays a lot better the hours are a
lot better um you know filling a movie can be
grueling you know 12 hour day after 12 hour day
but at the end of the month or however long the
shoot is you're back to your normal life if you're
a broadway actor or stagehand um you know eight
shows a week every week working six days a week,
every week. That's a grind. It's a lot of work.
But so a lot of our theater actors leave us for
Hollywood where the hours are a little bit better
and the pay is a little bit better. And then
when they get to a point in their career where,
you know, now they can pick the shows they want
to do on Broadway. And we see even just this
past season, we had what, Denzel Washington,
Jake Gyllenhaal, George. Clooney, some truly
A -list people saying, no, I want to do Broadway.
And I've been so successful in film that I can
make this work financially now. Well, you know
what I love about it? I've always been somebody
who, I grew up in LA, so I was always immersed
in that Hollywood culture. What I love about
that, because when I saw Jake Gyllenhaal, he's
always been my favorite. Donnie Darko is still
one of my favorite films. I was so excited that
he was going to be there and I couldn't make
the dates work, but it's like, you get this opportunity
to see somebody like that performing live. That's
a really special experience. Yeah. You know,
that is something that's really cool. Oh yeah.
And clearly like the box office is proving there,
there's a demand audiences like to see, you know,
a list Hollywood celebrities in a theater on
the ticketing side. What worries me is when,
when you have a truly, you know, a George Clooney
level person, George Clooney is human just like
us. He gets sick. He catches a cold. He trips
and breaks his ankle. That's something you can't
really plan for, but you will get a lot of refund
requests. People won't buy tickets because...
you know that's the person they're coming to
see so it's a double -edged sword but someone
of that caliber certainly sells tickets um certainly
gets a ton of press that that normally you wouldn't
get right every talk show and morning show will
have him on um but then you have to kind of be
prepared for the unprepared of you know whether
it's a planned vacation or an unplanned he he
got sick uh that that's a scary box office problem
sure yeah i'm actually in the women in ticketing
group And I see because that could be in attractions.
I see some of the challenges that theaters in
particular are facing with regards to that. Like
I've heard and seen some of the things that they're
asking for help with with regards to that. And
it's an interesting challenge that you guys have
because you are balancing something really unique
there with regards to the offering that you have.
I know we're bumping up against time, but I have
to mention one thing. You know, you are a Tony
Award winning producer. And with that, what is
one piece of advice you'd give to theaters, live
experience venues and attraction operators looking
to produce more successful and profitable guest
experiences? I mean, this is such a hard thing
to do because we're all living and breathing
inside of our businesses. But I try to. as often
as I can experience something as an actual audience
member. And that's tough, right? Because every
once in a while, I will literally buy with my
credit card a ticket to one of my own shows because
I want to know what is this experience, lining
up on the sidewalk, going through security, getting
your ticket scanned. Now, most people in a theater
where I have a show in know me and recognize
me. So I understand I can't truly get that experience.
But I also will ask friends and family members
if I know they're coming to see one of my shows.
covertly be a secret shopper. I'll buy you dinner
and drinks after. But report back. What were
the pain points? What felt unpleasant? What excited
you? What was surprising? And so as often as
you can, and if you're working in an attraction,
maybe it's a little easier to blend in with the
crowd versus the one entrance into a theater.
But try to experience it like a stranger. Go
to your competitors. What are they doing that
you could learn from? What are they doing that
you shouldn't be doing? But I try to, as often
as I can, make sure I'm trying to stick up and
be that voice of the consumer and say, well,
yeah, this makes sense for us on the back end,
but this actually makes the purchase path more
difficult. And yes, this will save us some time
and money, but it's an unpleasant experience.
One of our theater owners who recently sold his
theaters to a different company. um there's a
great story about how he had these ice machines
imported from europe um that made perfectly round
ice cubes that were quieter in a theater when
people you know drank their drink and he said
look these were obscenely expensive ice machines
there was no business case for this if you looked
at what this cost versus the ice machine i could
buy from a normal supplier made no sense i can't
measure it but i i know somehow this will pay
off if if it's a better experience for the audience
member Yeah, I love that because ultimately that's
what we want to see happen is the great experiences
for people. And so they keep coming back. We
know that even in attractions, which is where
I'm from, the industry that I work in, we know
that when somebody has a great experience, they're
more likely to come back. They're more likely
to tell other people about it. And so I 100 %
agree with you. And you just put it so eloquently,
look at what your overall experience is. Because
that's where the information is. Also, reviews,
right? People are leaving reviews. They're leaving
those comments. That's a goldmine to be mined.
And for us and the theater, I always say the
experience happens on the curb, right? An area
of the sidewalk we have literally no control
over. But if you're a ticket -buying audience
member, that's part of your experience. Years
ago, I worked in the attractions industry at
a... a major theme park operator and at a small
fbc before that and it's the same thing you know
if there's a long line for parking and the price
is obscene and the system isn't well thought
out that's actually where someone's journey begins
in their mind maybe not to us we think it's the
front gate and everything is magical after that
but if it's been a frustrating 20 minutes to
get to the front gate you know people are showing
up in a bad mood already yeah oh i talk a lot
on this show about standing in line with hangry
kids on a hot day at a water park right You know,
that's an experience for that mom. I've been
there. So, you know, looking at those areas where
you can improve that. You know, we're so close
to time. Cody, I could talk to you all day because
I think this is such a cool thing. But Summoning
Sylvia, your film. Yes. Was released in 23 markets.
You know, what are the key things that you learned
about the distribution experience and how that
could apply to attractions expanding their reach?
Sure. I mean, very similar to theater and the
film business. You don't I don't get consumer
data. Right. I get some high level demographic
data. But AMC, Regal, the movie theaters, you
know, they they own that information. But what
was eye opening for me? That was the first film
I produced compared to theater is all the different
revenue streams. Right. In theater, for the most
part. Yes, we sell. merchandise and we might
have a cast album and the theater we never keep
the concessions the producers that always goes
to the theater owner um and in the film business
you're clearly you have you know the big i'm
in movie theaters for at least a few weeks release
but then you have all these different revenue
streams right you can sell different windows
to different streaming services you can have
transactional video on demand at the same time
you can sell it to different markets all over
the world And so that, you know, I want to try
to bring some of that into theater and the attractions
industry does a much better job of that that
I'm also trying to steal to bring into theater.
You know, should there be an upcharge to have
a private VIP entrance into the theater where
there is no line and there is no huge wait for
the metal detectors? One of our Broadway theater
owners just started putting in VIP lounges in
their theater. So kind of like flying, you can
pay a small premium to have access to a private
lounge within. open bar and a coat check and
a restroom without a line. And it's not at all
that I want to nickel and dime people, but there's
a certain percentage of people who just want
a premium experience and are willing to pay a
little extra for that. And for every person who
buys up into the premium experience, that might
allow me to lower a few tickets and get some
people in the door who might not otherwise come.
Yeah. No, I think the answer is yes to that.
I would love that. I love that. I love those
moments where you get to have that VIP experience.
And, you know, I always say to the businesses
I work with, the only difference between a Tiffany's
diamond and a jewelry mart diamond is the experience,
right? One will bring you a coffee, tea, soda,
whatever you want, maybe even some champagne.
The other isn't going to offer you a drink. But
it's the same diamond. Exactly. And some of those
things don't have to cost much money or. any
money at all right um you know there uh we experimented
a while ago and it didn't work for techno technology
reasons but you know we're scanning everyone's
ticket who comes in to the front door their name
is tied to that purchase you know a simple hi
cody welcome back if we see you've been in this
theater before hi cody you know we see it's your
first time we hope you have a great time um you
know that there's a few hours of coding to make
the name pop up on the scanner but that i love
little easy things like that that just humanize
the process, make people feel special and don't
cost a lot of money to implement. Yeah, I think
I love where you're going with that. Well, Cody,
thank you for being so generous with my time.
I have to share one more thing with you. Did
you know that the Tony Award was named after
a woman from Denver? which is where I am. Yes,
Antoinette Perry. Yeah. I learned that this year
and I was like, what? But as you know, theater
is very, you probably know, I think I heard something
like Denver is second largest to Broadway in
terms of campus. Denver's a huge market, yeah.
So luckily I keep telling my kids now, I'm like,
you guys can do this and stay home. You don't
have to leave me. I've done shows at the Denver
Center for the Performing Arts. Yeah, and there's
many other great theaters there too. Yeah. Well,
cool. Well, I'm so glad that, you know, I figured
you knew that. I learned it this year, actually,
just a few months ago. And I was really just
sharing it with everyone. So, yes. Yeah. And
Antoinette Perry, who led the American theater
wing, kind of helped shape what what modern commercial
theater is. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Well, hey,
thank you so much for being here and for being
so generous with your time and for all that you've
shared with our audience. What's the best way
for somebody to get a hold of you if they need
or want to connect with you? You can go to my
website, just CodyLassen .com and fill out the
form. You can connect with me on LinkedIn or
any of the social media platforms. I'm easy to
find. Yeah, well, I appreciate you being here.
I know this show is a little bit longer than
normal, but this was such a cool experience to
talk to somebody with all this knowledge of theater
and also just something that I learned a lot
today. And hopefully I can better support the
theaters that I'm associated with and work with.
And I'll have to send this to our local theater.
I think they're going to love this show. Thank
you so much for being here. And yeah, I... Thanks
for having me. It's been a pleasure. Yeah, it's
been super fun. Well, I'll see you at Intex.
How about that? Yes, exactly. Yeah. Well, thanks,
Cody, for being here. I'll see you soon. Sounds
good. Bye. Bye. All right, guys, I hope you found
that to be as exciting as shows me. I mean, I
know I've got some big reasons to love to talk
to somebody like Cody who has that experience
on Broadway and in theater because I have kids
who are aspiring to move in that direction. But
also, you know, I understand that it's a big
part of what we're doing, creating these experiences
for people. And I love what he said about. Going
through the experience yourself and understanding
what your guest is going to go through or what
your ticket holders would go through, I think
that's a huge way for us to innovate and improve
the experiences that we're giving those who are
attending our shows and our venues. There's always
something that can be learned from every industry.
And even seeing how he's learning from other
industries and pulling information from sports
teams and attractions. and how they're bringing
that into their space. So I hope like you, or
like me, you're taking this information so that
you can use it across your business and the different
business models that you're trying to create.
So thank you for being here. I want to thank
again, Cody, for being on the show. Thank you
to our audience. We couldn't make this happen
without those. of you out there watching and
viewing. And if you are listening on the podcast
networks. We thank you for listening. If you're
watching us live and or on replay, please hashtag
replay so we know that you were here. And if
you have any questions for us or you would like
to be a guest on the show and share your knowledge
and information like Cody did, you can visit
livewithsondra .com. We have a guest submission
form right up on the main page, so you'll be
able to access that. Fill that form out. Get
with our producers, our amazing team that helps
make this show possible. We'll get you on the
show so you can share your information with the
world. We love having people who are coming from
all these adjacent industries that are teaching
us so much like Cody did. So thank you for being
here. And a quick reminder to visit our sponsor,
GateMaster Technology at GateMaster .com. GateMaster
is smarter ticketing and it starts. with them.
So visit us at gatemaster .com. Thank you again,
and I'll see you guys on the next Live with Sondra.