Welcome to Closer to Christ, a conference where two friends share our own approach to
studying general conference.
It's good to have you guys with us today.
Thanks for being here.
Today, we get to talk about Elder D. Todd Christopherson's talk entitled, The Testimony
of Jesus, and I thought, what a fitting talk for Amy to take the lead on.
I'll open up with just kind of a synopsis, a little brief paragraph.
Elder Christopherson noted in the opening of his talk that President Oaks had taught
about this in previous conference, and they weren't surprised that it was going to be
Elder Oaks and then Elder Christopherson at this conference.
We were all surprised.
I'm always like, who's going to be next?
But he wasn't so surprised by it.
And then we had already talked in our last one about how we think that talk in what October
really built on what we heard into this April conference.
My months are confused right now, so I don't know if I was going to say that right.
Here's the quote, through the triumph and glory of the lamb, all but a relatively few
individuals are eventually redeemed into one of these kingdoms, according to the desire
manifested through their choices.
And then he reminds us that God's plan of redemption is a universal opportunity for
all his children because it is for every single person, whenever, wherever they may have lived
on the earth.
I love that, Abby.
This is compounding with Elder Karen's talk too.
I know, right?
That's the thing, the good and the bad.
We have just entered into not nothing bad, just the good, the great thing about studying
conference talks and putting time into one.
It's like the compounds.
It totally does.
And you find yourself saying, I already heard this.
I've already learned this.
However, there's more there.
There's another little line that just further deepens if you've got the weight behind, you
know, the one sentence, like, oh yeah, that just brought back all these memories.
And then like the next piece.
Totally.
It's true.
I'd love to...
Okay, let's see.
My mind just went blank.
I was trying to think of something from Elder Karen's talk, but I'm going to divert that
for a minute.
Tell me when I shared that quote with you about how through people's choices, we're
reminded that this is for every single person, whenever, wherever.
Like what does that spark in you?
So it's so interesting because the thing that came to my mind, Abby, I love this so much.
Okay.
So I didn't get this on the first pass, but to be honest, it's a bit challenging.
Like we were just saying, it's challenging to study talk after talk and receive something
new in every single talk, right?
Someone wouldn't be too far off if they said that each talk says the same thing, because
let's be honest, they have a lot of the same threads that are wound throughout because
we're talking about the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Or maybe I just feel that way because I prayed at the beginning of this when we jumped into
the podcast, I prayed that the similar threads being woven throughout each talk would come
to mind.
So maybe that's why I feel like it.
I don't know.
Maybe it's just because it already is that way.
Do you know what I mean?
I think it's two part because I think just an initial passing, I can usually be able
to say, okay, they talked a lot about trials and overcoming trials and how we can find
joy in our trials.
We talked a lot about temples, you know, and covenant making, right?
That's kind of just like the face value.
But then as we get into each talk, even pieces of like, you know, how to anchor ourselves
for the foundation or the importance of a temple garment or yes, I can talk, I can talk
one after the next, but like the last few, especially because we're getting to this,
oh, that's what I was going to say.
That's where my mind was.
We finished our last episode was Elder Oaks.
That was the finishing up of the last Sunday morning.
We're we've turned into the like the last, this is probably the one most of you got a
nice nap in.
So these are ones.
It's tiring to listen to all of them, right?
I actually stayed awake the whole time.
This time I was writing enough notes that I don't usually stay awake.
And even Elder Oakdorf talked about how like the best, like the best type of sleep is like
church sleep or whatever.
I don't know the way he said I was like, oh, good.
He's done it before too.
So I don't have to feel so bad.
But again, it's in print.
It's in listening form.
Like you can catch it again.
But what I think is great as for sure, as we're getting into these last talks, because
we have four other sessions of conferences kind of already been on our minds and we've
been thinking about them.
These are hitting differently.
They are.
And so you've made the point with that.
I'm glad that I find it only took four and a half minutes for me to remember what I was
trying to think of before.
Okay.
So let's, let's be serious.
You pray and ask the spirit to show you similar threads.
And I love that you did that.
And especially if there could be, there could be threads that you see that I don't see.
But if it relates to the question that you're asking, like, what am I ready for more information?
What do I want to grow in?
What if it's just my similar thread?
We've definitely gathered with women to discuss conference after the fact.
And we do see different.
We do think that the main theme of conference was different.
And that means the spirit was testifying to us what those threads were.
But regardless of how we come about that to show us these threads, is there anything else
that you've learned as you've prayed or as we studied for this podcast?
Is there like further information that you've gathered from what those similar threads look
like to you?
Yes.
So, um, you know, I share this because it might help someone else.
This is just my process and what I've done.
Um, I pray that the spirit will help me identify the one thing that this talk teaches or that
teaches it differently than the other talks, because they do layer on each other.
Um, and so as I layer, sorry, as I recognize the similarities, I'm able to discern first
where they're the same and then discern where there is a slight change in each talk.
And that's what stood out to me here.
So as Elder Christopherson spoke about God's final judgment, my brain first said, Oh, I've
heard about this before, you know, this is a similarity.
And then when I heard according to the desires manifested through their choices, I recognize
that that was a difference right there.
Like people will assume that they're getting rated or graded into a kingdom when you're
like, no, you had full control of having whatever you wanted of the father's offering.
So you understood that part.
I didn't know.
I mean, I'm having this conversation with you now as I'm like listening to what you
found as important.
I'm thinking, yeah, because a lot of times the conversation is somebody that like, um,
kind of half in half out there.
They kind of don't grasp the importance of why, why they're partaking of the gospel or
not partaking of it at a time.
And they want to just make whatever choices they want, but they also are fully aware of
all of the blessing God has to offer.
There are a lot of people that don't know about the kingdoms of glory.
They don't, they don't understand that.
So the life they're living is going to grant them the life that they're expecting.
This beautiful, like you die and you go to heaven and it's beautiful.
Yes.
But I think it's definitely people in our faith that only want to be like half in that
are like, why can't I just be half in, but get everything the father has to offer?
I love that because this is exactly what it brought me to because he does say it differently.
Right?
And the thing is that, um, I feel like the Holy ghost helped me like make the connection
there.
Right.
Yes.
And find the slight difference.
And like you said, so what I, same principle, but different words.
And so it's like hitting a little bit differently.
So what, what did you do with that next?
What was the next piece of that process for you?
Because it was different.
I was like, wait, I've heard this before, but it was a little bit different.
Right.
So then I Googled the phrase and I found DNC 137 eight, which that's where we were taught
this in the first place.
Just to reiterate the phrase being, okay.
The phrase was according to the desires manifested through their choices, according to the desires.
Normally we hear according to diet desires of the heart.
Right.
But this was different because he said manifested through our choices.
So I Googled it to find out where have I heard that before.
And it was in DNC 137 verse eight.
He says, for either Lord will judge all men according to their works, according to the
desires of their hearts.
That's what resonated with me.
Cause that's what I knew before.
Right.
So I wondered before very specifically the desires of the heart and righteous desires
meant like what it meant in the scriptural contents that we just read, meaning in DNC
137, the desires of the heart refers to those who died without having the knowledge of Jesus
Christ in their lives.
If they had the restored gospel, they would have accepted it and lived it fully.
So just like what you were saying, Abby, um, was exactly what I was thinking.
Cause I was like, okay, I understand that that's the scriptural content or context,
excuse me.
Um, if I was going to apply this right here to me and my life, would it look like this?
I didn't live a higher law even when it was made available, but I desired it eventually
and we're judged on our choices and the desire of our hearts.
So it says here, I'm judged as if I live the higher law because I desired to or meant
to.
Right.
And then I was like, oh yeah, that doesn't make sense.
Right.
Clearly.
So the spirit highlighted for me because I noticed the difference.
Your personal desires are manifested through your choices.
So at this point, they're no longer a question manifesting is where the spiritual becomes
physical the desires clearly seen in the choices we make.
So there's no question anymore.
Whereas before I was kind of like, it felt nebulous.
It felt like it wasn't concrete.
And then the second one was just that I felt like the spirit taught me was the desires
that are out of our control due to another person's agency or, um, and, um, president
Oaks talks about this as well or personal limitations on your body or your circumstances.
One of the circumstances might be where or when you were born.
So just for an example, like desiring the full gospel of Jesus Christ, but it wasn't
on the earth.
Yeah.
Right.
That's out of your control.
Something that he's made a way possible to cover all that's the whole point, right?
How we know the nature of him, how beautiful, like how beautiful the plan is.
Absolutely.
Let's cover that.
It does.
So it was just saying in that moment from what they understood, right?
Like if you were, if you lived your entire life and never lived a covenant while you're
on the earth, that's what this covers as well.
Um, another one could be, um, desiring to be married in this life, desiring a parent
to accept the gospel.
Like we talked about in one of these past ones, Sister Porter, she prayed about that
her whole life.
That is someone else's agency desiring a spouse that makes and keeps covenants.
Her parents, uh, her, her father joining the church and making is an individual thing,
but she was praying for like an internal family, right?
So yeah.
So that's the other thing too.
She did what was, what if her desire was that, but she didn't live her covenant.
That's what I had brought that up in just a couple of episodes ago that the things I've
thought about since then, she desired an internal family so much for she wanted, she wanted
that that she did.
She did marry, she did have a covenant marriage.
She did establish an internal family with her own and her children going forward until
the blessing was finally able to be part hers when her father also did accept it because
of his individual choices.
I love that you said that.
So if we're putting it in this context, it would be that, um, where is that part, Abby?
I'm trying to find it so that her choices were made manifest.
What is it?
Um, like where you only have control of your agency and her desires were made manifest.
There are limitations to what you can achieve on your own.
Love it.
Yeah, that's exactly it.
So I just liked that further clarification.
Um, I really appreciated it when, and because we're talking about common threads and what
we've gathered from other conference talks, as you're talking, I'm thinking, um, yes,
the mentality of like, I know what's there for me to inherit.
I want to do this.
I want to act in this way.
I want to make my daily choices reflect this type of lifestyle.
And I'm going to put a name to it.
Like you're living a terrestrial law.
You are not living a celestial law.
And if you're saying you want to do it, but you're not like, I know.
Yes.
That's what I'm saying.
This isn't to just, this isn't to judge anybody, but like somebody that's having that conversation
with you, cause I've definitely seen it happen.
Um, you were given an example of people just saying like, I know that there's a higher
law to be lived and I will have desired eventually.
Like I'll live the higher law eventually.
Cause I want to inherit that eternally.
You don't really know how, how can you really project when, like when it's too late?
How do you know that if you're thinking like next month, I'm going to, you know, put these
things away that are holding me back from making covenants with father.
And then I'll pick them up in a month.
Who's to say that you, that's not the end of your days.
Like tomorrow isn't the end of your days.
Yes.
And I don't want to say that in a threatening way or like a scare tactic.
What I'm trying to say is when you know what blessings are available to you living, thinking
celestial living celestial, why not?
Why not take advantage of those in the moment right now?
And I understand that things people have to give up.
They're like maybe addictions and they're harder things, but even just like even manifesting
the desire that you want to give those up because you want to live a celestial law is
living celestial.
Even if that thing you're doing is a celestial thing, the desire of your heart will make
you that following day.
Like I've watched people in my profession, like quit smoking that nothing to do with
religion or church.
They're not in our church.
So this is not a word of wisdom thing.
It's just they've felt the bonds of the addiction in their life and they've been doing it since
they were 13 and like they've gotten sick or like they recognize that it's like holding
them back physically and they choose to quit.
Like the next day they're experiencing some withdrawals, but some positive things like
they're already feeling a shift because they're thinking, their mindset's thinking in a different
direction.
Oh, absolutely.
Anytime you're starting to get free of any bonds of addiction, you're going to feel that.
You're going to feel like what the spirit is kind of gaining more strength over the
body.
Yeah.
And when we're talking about gospel related principles, like the second that you demonstrate
your agency to say this is the desire of my heart, this is the direction I want to go,
I was like listening to like a church song this morning, so I was getting ready for church
and it talked about like how he's reaching out and I'm like, if I could rewrite that.
Really his hands always extended, but we have to actually do the reach.
I mean, it's like a centimeter.
Like sometimes he's like so close.
He's like, I'm right here and I want to help you with whatever you want.
Help me just touch me.
And the song's beautiful.
I get the message of the song, but he's there.
We kind of have to agency is in every aspect of this.
And so we just have to demonstrate that's what we want from it too.
I love that.
I loved it so much, Abby, truly.
I never have to worry about this whole, like I've thought about this my whole life and
I never have to worry from here on out.
What is a desire, Amy?
Guess what?
The desire is that thing that you are doing.
Like if you've manifested it by your choices, then that is the next action that you make
should demonstrate that that's your real desire.
So I love that.
There's no more question for me.
When somebody's trying to get out, like if somebody's addicted to alcohol or tobacco
and they try to get out of it, they'll have like their subgroup of friends that are like,
why are you doing that?
Why are you giving that up?
It doesn't make a difference.
It doesn't, you know, you're fine just the way that you are.
And they're not ready to give it up.
So it's hard.
Right.
And in no judgment in that way, like that's them.
But just even just verbalizing that you want to make that change, it's because you're
feeling something in you that's shifting, that's like, this is the thing that's holding me back.
And so you're going to go, you know, to the best of your ability, you're going to stop
that difficult thing.
Most people like statistically, like if smoking, like you pick it up, like you try to quit,
usually takes like seven times to be effective at quitting.
That's the average.
That means that some maybe take 10 and some people you hear quitting cold turkey.
But I guess all I'm saying is I've watched different, I've watched different people try
to give that up and have different levels of success with it.
But when I say different levels of success, I'm actually proud of every moment that they've
tried to exert like authority over their physical body and like the things their bodies tell
me, we need the nicotine.
And they're still just saying, no, like I wanted to make this change for myself.
And so then I can easily relate that to the gospel principles.
Like if you're, let's say, sinning, I'm not even going to put a name to like what sin we're
talking about.
If your friends is actively participating that and they want you to stay and doing that
thing, it makes them feel better about themselves, but you're wanting to change.
You don't have to be completely turned away from that thing.
You don't have to, I'm not saying not to go cold turkey on the thing that you need to
give up.
All I'm saying is just the moment that you make that decision to make that turn and your
heart changes, it's as good as done.
I love that you spiritually chosen it.
That's it.
And then sometimes it takes a minute for the physical body to catch up.
I totally agree with that.
Did we talk about that in Karen's?
Yes, we did.
That's resonated with me.
It's a true principle, man.
Yeah.
Just hold onto that spiritual part, right?
And he sees that part more, more isn't that great?
I think he sees the spiritual part way, way more than we're taught to care about the
physical like, oh, and you still, you still needed to smoke, but it's like, no, but I
gave it up in my, I gave it up in my heart and that's the direction that I'm working
towards.
Maybe I'm going to go from two packs of cigarettes a day to one, but in my mind, I'm like, I'm
doing this with the intent to be totally free of this addiction.
What a beautiful thing.
Totally.
I love it.
So let's, okay.
So really this right here, I feel like, I feel like we, he talked very much about some
of the same things that president Oaks talked about.
However, I love this part right here because it talks about, is this a, is this a sub point
in the talk?
Yes, that's exactly what he said.
Okay.
And from the talk there, there's a quote that he shared of elder Neil A Maxwell from 1996.
Am I getting that right?
I'm not getting that right.
I'm not having you tell me what.
We're just going to put that in the notes and that'll be fine.
I miss wrote that, but it doesn't suggest.
Okay.
So there is a talk that you, you find a connection with that you want people to share.
So we're going to put a pod in the podcast note, like we're the same place that I link
the conference talk for you guys to have easy access to.
There'll also be a link to a talk that's called according to the desires of our hearts.
And so it's something that Amy sees like a strong correlation between she recalled things
from that talk as she was like opening her mind to this new talk.
So I'll go on to share this.
Those in the celestial kingdom are they who received the testimony of Jesus, who are just
men made perfect through Jesus, the mediator of the new covenant, the inhabitants of the
second or terrestrial kingdom are described as essentially good, including the honorable
men of the earth who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
Their principle limiting trait is that they are not valued in the testimony of Jesus.
By contrast, those in the lower terrestrial kingdom are those who received not the gospel
neither the testimony of Jesus.
I feel like those are going to be very few and far between, between opportunities that
we have here and then all of the work that's done.
That's still that probationary period after we die.
There's still so much missionary work happening.
There sure is.
Now this is like the crux of the entire talk.
Note that the distinguished characteristics of the inhabitants of each kingdom is how
they relate to the testimony of Jesus ranging from one wholehearted devotion to not being
valiant to or three outright rejection on each person's reaction hangs his or her,
her eternal future.
Isn't that so interesting?
I added her, but that means that too.
Each person's reaction.
Oh, it does say that.
So literally everything hangs on our relationship with Jesus Christ.
I love it.
Number one, are we valiant?
Number two, are we not valiant?
Number three, do we reject?
And those are each of the kingdoms that we're assigned to and we will abide them meaning
we'll live comfortably in them according to the way we live and we want to live our
lives and our desires.
I love it.
And I've met so many people that I'm like, they, they have like the most sweet and pure
testimony of Jesus Christ.
They're not members of our faith, but it's easy to see how they can inherit like the
kingdom of glory and well deserved.
And they'll be happy with it.
Well, I'll be happy.
We'll all be happy.
We choose what makes us happy.
We don't have to wait till we die to pick that, make that choice.
We're making it every day in the way that we feel about Jesus Christ and the way we're
reflecting it in the actions that we're making.
And I really, if I could rewind, I'm hoping that I didn't say anything offensive if like
I'm calling out like your personal, like the thing that's like holding you back.
But we all have something you really do.
Call it whatever you want.
I've met many people that drink and smoke that love their savior, Jesus Christ.
And they'll be enjoying like heaven's and eternity's with him.
When I was talking about that, I was talking about people that recognize that it's not
what they want to be doing in their life.
And they fill that bondage that they're in the addiction that they want to break.
That's who I'm talking to.
In my profession, like if I know somebody, I'm done a hygienist by trade.
If I, if I see somebody they've indicated they smoke and I ask them if they smoke and
I say, do you want to quit? And they say, no, I do not spend another second being like,
oh, it's so bad for you.
You shouldn't be doing that.
If they say, I'm actually, I quit.
I'm trying to quit or whatever.
My conversation look very different with each of those people because at the heart of it,
I love them, whatever they want to be doing.
And it's definitely not my decision.
Right.
You'll facilitate whatever I'm there to support and encourage and cheerlead or whatever.
I love that.
And again, remind me like I quit before, but I just picked it back up, you know, and I
will say, I quote that stat.
I think it's average seven of quits.
So you've got one under your belt.
Of course you have the stats for that.
Well, I mean, who knows?
They could be old.
They could be old because I've been graduated 20 years from college.
So a minute.
So let's, let's have you close it up for us, Amy.
Okay.
So, Abby, I just want to ask each person who's listening wherever you are, where were you
when you learned this truth that our desires are made manifest by our choices?
Maybe you were in the conference center listening when elder Neely Maxwell talked about it in
the text, because he definitely touched on it.
Maybe you were listening or have read a talk.
Maybe you were reading scriptures on your own or, or were in a second meeting where
it was talked.
My whole point is that once you learned that truth, what did you do with it?
Yes.
What do we do with it at that point?
And that's the other thing too.
Remember at the beginning we talked about that there's the same thread all throughout
truth is taught over and over and over because heavenly father wants to find each one of
us where we are.
And as we seek for him, we will learn these truths.
There are no surprises in heavenly father's plan.
There are no surprises in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
He continues to teach us because he's merciful, the same lessons over and over.
And we receive them at the layer that we're supposed to hear it, hear them at.
He will find us.
I think it's such a merciful thing to do because we can, we can be listening to the same talk
and we can hear something a little bit differently based on what we're ready to hear, but we're
judged on what we hear and then take and do.
Absolutely.
And so somebody that's not in a place to like really like step up and live like the next
tire piece of a law, they'll be judged at the law that they are.
They're able to hear what there is at the place that they're ready according to where
they understand it.
Absolutely.
I love it.
I do too.
It tells me about the nature of God.
It does.
He's beautiful.
Thank you so much for being with us here today, everyone.
We hope you have a great week and we'll catch you next time.
Catch you next time guys.
Bum ba da bum.