1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,300 Jane Clarke: I think the first draft, in a way, is often just full 2 00:00:09,300 --> 00:00:14,580 of emotional energy, and then to make it something that's meaningful 3 00:00:14,580 --> 00:00:19,500 to others, it's the pulling back, it's the looking, and it's finding 4 00:00:19,500 --> 00:00:24,680 the form that will express it so that it isn't just a diary entry. 5 00:00:24,860 --> 00:00:25,460 You know? 6 00:00:27,730 --> 00:00:30,100 Seán Hewitt: Welcome to The Glimpse. I'm your host. Seán 7 00:00:30,100 --> 00:00:33,910 Hewitt. Jane Clarke is the author of three poetry collections, 8 00:00:34,090 --> 00:00:38,260 including A Change in the Air, which was shortlisted in 2023 for 9 00:00:38,260 --> 00:00:41,290 the T.S Eliot Prize and the Forward Prize for Best Collection. 10 00:00:42,160 --> 00:00:46,000 She also edited the illustrated anthology Windfall: Irish Nature 11 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:50,860 Poems to Inspire and Connect. Jane Clarke is our guest today on The 12 00:00:50,860 --> 00:00:51,430 Glimpse. 13 00:00:57,990 --> 00:01:03,570 Jane Clarke writes poems of lyrical beauty and real heart. Rich with 14 00:01:03,570 --> 00:01:08,460 the tradition of Irish pastoral or nature poetry, a whole landscape 15 00:01:08,460 --> 00:01:12,630 can live inside one of her carefully tuned lines. But from the 16 00:01:12,630 --> 00:01:16,710 rich soil of tradition, Jane brings forward a poetry that is subtly 17 00:01:16,710 --> 00:01:21,600 changed, alert to political and social issues and fraught as nature 18 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:25,290 writing so often is now with anxieties about the changing 19 00:01:25,290 --> 00:01:29,520 climate. In Jane's poems, we can hear echoes of voices past and 20 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,630 present, the farmlands of Seamus Heaney, the lyricism of Kerry 21 00:01:33,630 --> 00:01:37,770 Hardie. And there's also a melodic sense of nature in all its fine 22 00:01:37,770 --> 00:01:43,710 detail, a chorus made by water, growth, diversity, precious and 23 00:01:43,710 --> 00:01:47,130 under threat. And if that wasn't enough, there's always a strong 24 00:01:47,130 --> 00:01:52,530 emotional core too, love, desire, hurt and comfort. All of these can 25 00:01:52,530 --> 00:01:56,700 be found in her poems. Jane Clarke, welcome to The Glimpse. I'm so 26 00:01:56,700 --> 00:01:58,500 happy you could come and speak to us. 27 00:01:58,860 --> 00:02:01,890 Jane Clarke: Thanks very much, Seán, and it's actually wonderful 28 00:02:01,890 --> 00:02:06,750 to hear what you have seen and read in my work. I really appreciate 29 00:02:06,750 --> 00:02:07,110 that. 30 00:02:07,350 --> 00:02:10,470 Seán Hewitt: I'm a big fan of your poems, as you probably know by now. 31 00:02:11,610 --> 00:02:12,510 Where are you today? 32 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,720 Jane Clarke: Okay, I'm in Glenmalure— at home in Glenmalure— 33 00:02:15,810 --> 00:02:19,680 and it's actually a beautiful day, stunningly beautiful. 34 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,630 Seán Hewitt: Okay, that's nice. Yeah, we have bright blue skies in 35 00:02:22,630 --> 00:02:26,800 Dublin as well. It's quite cold, but we have a lovely day. When I 36 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,190 was reading your, your bio, reading a bit about you, I learned 37 00:02:30,190 --> 00:02:33,220 something that I didn't know, which was that you used to work in 38 00:02:33,220 --> 00:02:34,600 community development and psychoanalytic psychotherapy. I 39 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:36,040 wanted to kind of begin by asking you about that, because I suppose, 40 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:37,240 you know, we're used to poets having different interests, but 41 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:38,590 often, you know, we talk to them about poetry. But I wondered if you 42 00:02:38,620 --> 00:02:42,640 could tell us a little bit about that, and what prompted you to 43 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:54,610 start exploring poetry? Or is poetry something that you always 44 00:02:54,610 --> 00:02:55,480 had in the background? 45 00:02:56,410 --> 00:02:59,170 Jane Clarke: I didn't really have it in my background at all. I 46 00:02:59,170 --> 00:03:02,980 studied in Trinity. I did four years English and philosophy. So 47 00:03:02,980 --> 00:03:08,440 obviously I was really interested in literature, but I was also 48 00:03:08,470 --> 00:03:13,120 always very interested in social justice and activism. So when I 49 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:17,560 left Trinity, myself and a friend, we traveled in South America for a 50 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,460 year and became really interested in community development. So I came 51 00:03:21,460 --> 00:03:26,950 back and got a job in the north inner city in Sean McDermott 52 00:03:26,950 --> 00:03:30,940 Street, working in a project there with women's groups, youth groups. 53 00:03:31,510 --> 00:03:35,320 And during that time, there was a lot of conflict coming up in 54 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,980 groups, and I found it really difficult to facilitate the 55 00:03:38,980 --> 00:03:43,480 conflict situations. So that's what led me to doing psychotherapy; it 56 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:48,610 was out of a need for my work. And then, I just became fascinated by 57 00:03:48,610 --> 00:03:53,710 psychoanalysis, and it actually was psychoanalysis that led me back to 58 00:03:53,710 --> 00:03:57,820 literature, in a way, led me particularly to poetry. Because 59 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,720 training in psychoanalysis and working in it, a lot is about 60 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,500 dealing with grief, and also a lot is about dealing with symbolism and 61 00:04:05,500 --> 00:04:09,760 metaphor. And you know, the words people choose and why they choose 62 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,100 that word in particular at that time. 63 00:04:13,060 --> 00:04:18,190 Seán Hewitt: It is, it is. You know, we often think of poetry as 64 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:22,690 being able to mediate or give a space for thinking. Is that 65 00:04:22,690 --> 00:04:26,620 something that, you know, being led in by psychoanalysis, is that 66 00:04:26,620 --> 00:04:29,740 something that you think informed the kind of route that your poetry 67 00:04:29,860 --> 00:04:32,140 took, or the concerns of your poetry? 68 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:36,290 Jane Clarke: Definitely. I suppose, when you say a space for thinking, 69 00:04:34,250 --> 00:04:40,910 I also say a space for feeling and thinking. And that's what I learned 70 00:04:36,380 --> 00:04:41,180 in psychoanalysis, that you need both. And I think that's what 71 00:04:40,910 --> 00:05:05,510 happens in poetry as well, and that it's that kind of combination of 72 00:04:41,180 --> 00:04:44,240 tuning into your emotional life and bringing your thought life to that. 73 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:49,220 And they're not separate, Really you can’t separate them. 74 00:04:49,220 --> 00:04:54,050 Seán Hewitt: I wonder if you could tell us a little bit, too, about 75 00:04:54,050 --> 00:04:54,500 your work with ecologists and activists and farmers and the stuff 76 00:05:05,510 --> 00:05:10,640 that you're doing now. That's, I'm sure, connected to activism that 77 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,760 you've done in the past, but it seems to have shifted, perhaps, 78 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:14,780 into a different arena. 79 00:05:15,350 --> 00:05:20,630 Jane Clarke: Since I began to write in my early 40s, my awareness of 80 00:05:20,630 --> 00:05:23,270 what's happening in the environment has increased 81 00:05:23,300 --> 00:05:28,730 enormously, and also I realized I wanted to learn more. And so then I 82 00:05:28,730 --> 00:05:34,100 sought out people with whom I could learn, and they were interested in 83 00:05:34,100 --> 00:05:38,180 what I was doing. So I now have some wonderful naturalists and 84 00:05:38,660 --> 00:05:42,830 ecologists amongst my friends. And then again, one thing led to 85 00:05:42,830 --> 00:05:46,250 another, because I was interested in the climate crisis, and 86 00:05:46,250 --> 00:05:50,420 particularly the biodiversity crisis, then I began to work with 87 00:05:50,450 --> 00:05:54,710 Burrenbeo, who promote and support farmers who are farming in a 88 00:05:54,710 --> 00:05:58,400 different way, in a way with nature— this whole thing of working 89 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:02,450 with nature, rather than exploiting it. Which is the change all 90 00:06:02,450 --> 00:06:05,960 of us have to make, it's not just farmers, you know. So, so that's 91 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,770 how, you know, one thing led to another. And over the past year, I 92 00:06:09,770 --> 00:06:15,620 visited six farmers. And, you know, I go, I visit, I meet with them, I 93 00:06:15,620 --> 00:06:20,420 listen, I walk with them. It's only for a morning. And then that has 94 00:06:20,420 --> 00:06:24,650 led to about ten poems, which I hope to be doing something with 95 00:06:24,650 --> 00:06:25,640 over the next year. 96 00:06:26,350 --> 00:06:29,980 Seán Hewitt: And how do you see that working in your poems? How is 97 00:06:29,980 --> 00:06:33,850 it shifting the sort of poetry that you write—or are you noticing your 98 00:06:33,850 --> 00:06:35,620 attention fall in different places? 99 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,240 Jane Clarke: Well, I have to say, when I go to visit the farmers, I'm 100 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,620 always sort of scared, and that's always my thing. When I'm required 101 00:06:42,620 --> 00:06:45,920 to write a poem that, "Will I be able to do this justice? Will I be 102 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:51,350 able to find a way in?" But, actually, I have, and yeah, so how 103 00:06:51,350 --> 00:06:56,420 has it helped? I suppose, in a way, a lot of my earlier work came from 104 00:06:56,420 --> 00:07:00,650 the farm where I grew up, then it was coming from Wicklow. And in a 105 00:07:00,650 --> 00:07:05,240 way, this has allowed me to spread my wings, if you like, and work, 106 00:07:05,330 --> 00:07:08,900 you know, with all kinds of different settings and all kinds of 107 00:07:08,930 --> 00:07:14,540 different aspects of biodiversity. And so that's been really enriching 108 00:07:14,540 --> 00:07:15,140 for me. 109 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:17,040 Seán Hewitt: When did you move to Wicklow? 110 00:07:18,260 --> 00:07:22,160 Jane Clarke: Thirty years ago we moved to Wicklow and—yeah? 111 00:07:22,220 --> 00:07:25,460 Seán Hewitt: Yeah, I was gonna ask you about about "Spalls," the poem 112 00:07:25,460 --> 00:07:29,750 you're gonna read for us. Is this a new house in Wicklow, or is this 113 00:07:29,750 --> 00:07:32,300 kind of a historic look back at the first time you moved? 114 00:07:32,870 --> 00:07:35,480 Jane Clarke: Yeah, we moved to one house in Wicklow, and that's the 115 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:39,350 same house where we are now. So this poem and this garden is the 116 00:07:39,350 --> 00:07:43,100 garden out around us here now. So if I could just say about the 117 00:07:43,100 --> 00:07:47,570 background to the poem, yeah. So how it came about is the summer 118 00:07:47,570 --> 00:07:53,750 before, so that was 2022, myself, my wife, were with two friends who 119 00:07:53,750 --> 00:08:00,170 were farmers in their kitchen, and I felt in something they said, I 120 00:08:00,170 --> 00:08:04,130 felt their discomfort with us as a couple. Now I knew they really 121 00:08:04,130 --> 00:08:07,310 liked us. It wasn't anything but with our "coupledom," if you like, 122 00:08:07,310 --> 00:08:10,310 it wasn't about us as people, but about something about being 123 00:08:10,340 --> 00:08:16,070 uncomfortable. And, of course, that reminded me of my parents. And I 124 00:08:16,070 --> 00:08:21,080 came home from that visit, and I started to write this poem. And I 125 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,590 think maybe if I hadn't just picked up on that feeling—which, of 126 00:08:24,590 --> 00:08:29,510 course, it was difficult for me to feel that, as it was over the years 127 00:08:29,510 --> 00:08:33,410 with my parents, but I think the great thing about a poem is you can 128 00:08:33,410 --> 00:08:37,340 include different feelings. It's not just one feeling, it's not just 129 00:08:37,340 --> 00:08:40,340 discomfort there, there's love there, there's, you know, there's 130 00:08:40,340 --> 00:08:42,740 an awful lot else, I hope conveyed. 131 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:47,730 Seán Hewitt: And isn't it amazing as well, how long a poem can wait. 132 00:08:48,660 --> 00:08:53,220 You know you might have felt something 30 years ago or on 133 00:08:53,220 --> 00:08:56,340 different occasions over 30 years, and it takes that long before it 134 00:08:56,910 --> 00:09:01,410 catches and suddenly you know what it is. You know how to name it. 135 00:09:01,500 --> 00:09:04,320 Jane Clarke: Yes, Absolutely. 136 00:09:04,050 --> 00:09:08,070 Seán Hewitt: Would you do us the honor of reading "Spalls" for us? 137 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:09,440 Jane Clarke: I will, yes, 138 00:09:09,470 --> 00:09:10,040 Seán Hewitt: Thank you. 139 00:09:10,570 --> 00:09:13,060 Jane Clarke: And if I could just say that "spalls" comes from the 140 00:09:13,060 --> 00:09:17,710 Irish word "spalli," which means the small stones you put into a 141 00:09:17,710 --> 00:09:25,450 wall to hold it together. "Spalls" To help us grow a garden, my mother 142 00:09:25,450 --> 00:09:30,130 and father travelled / across the Bog of Allen and over the Whiklow 143 00:09:30,130 --> 00:09:36,070 Gap. // They'd have preferred to drive west to Galway or Mayo, / 144 00:09:36,670 --> 00:09:41,050 they'd have preferred a husband and children // but their daughter 145 00:09:41,050 --> 00:09:46,870 loved a woman. We'd have the table set for breakfast: rashers, black 146 00:09:46,870 --> 00:09:52,810 pudding, fried bread and eggs. // When the soil had warmed, we 147 00:09:52,810 --> 00:09:58,240 unloaded shovels / and rakes, buckets of compost and the rusted 148 00:09:58,270 --> 00:10:04,060 iron bar // for prising out rocks. The back seat was thronged / with 149 00:10:04,060 --> 00:10:10,420 pots of seedlings my mother had nurtured all winter. // We worked 150 00:10:10,450 --> 00:10:15,580 to her bidding: loosen tangled roots before planting, / sow 151 00:10:15,580 --> 00:10:22,330 marigolds next to beans, sprinkle Epsom salts around roses. // My 152 00:10:22,330 --> 00:10:28,870 father took off on his own to spud ragwort or clip a hedge. / One day 153 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:35,230 he spent hours gathering stones of different shapes and sizes. // By 154 00:10:35,260 --> 00:10:40,900 evening, he'd built us a wall under the holly, held together / by 155 00:10:40,900 --> 00:10:46,930 gravity and friction, hearted with handfuls of spalls. 156 00:10:48,220 --> 00:10:51,280 Seán Hewitt: Thank you very much. I love that poem. I'm really glad 157 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,880 that you told us; I hadn't realized that the word "spalls" had an Irish 158 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:55,390 root. 159 00:10:55,420 --> 00:10:56,140 Jane Clarke: Yes, 160 00:10:56,740 --> 00:10:59,170 Seán Hewitt: It was a word that I'll admit I didn't know before I 161 00:10:59,170 --> 00:11:02,800 read this poem. Where did you come across it? Or is it a word that's 162 00:11:02,860 --> 00:11:03,700 common to you? 163 00:11:03,540 --> 00:11:06,716 Jane Clarke: Well, it's funny because it's actually in, in a poem 164 00:11:06,777 --> 00:11:10,869 in my first collection. I wrote a poem "Dry Stone Wall" in my first 165 00:11:10,930 --> 00:11:15,084 collection, and "spalls" was in it. So it was when I was researching 166 00:11:15,145 --> 00:11:19,421 the first poem, and I researched it by talking to my mother and father 167 00:11:19,482 --> 00:11:23,452 around the kitchen table at home, and asked, I was asking dad all 168 00:11:23,513 --> 00:11:27,422 about, "How do you build a dry stone wall?" Because that was one 169 00:11:27,483 --> 00:11:30,782 of the things he always loved doing. And so he gave me 170 00:11:30,843 --> 00:11:34,996 vocabulary, basically, and mom did as well. And then—so I wrote that 171 00:11:35,057 --> 00:11:38,661 poem. And this poem was first called "Under the Holly." The 172 00:11:38,722 --> 00:11:42,754 "spalls" weren't in it at all, and I hadn't got a good ending; the 173 00:11:42,815 --> 00:11:46,724 ending wasn't right. And you know yourself, you just walk around 174 00:11:46,785 --> 00:11:50,816 thinking, "How could I get this better?"And so one day, I was just 175 00:11:50,877 --> 00:11:55,092 thinking about the making of a wall and remembering that they use the 176 00:11:55,153 --> 00:11:59,490 word "hearted." That actually is an expression used by wall-makers. And 177 00:11:59,551 --> 00:12:03,888 that's when I got the final couplet right, and "spalls" then became the 178 00:12:03,949 --> 00:12:04,560 last word. 179 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:08,650 Seán Hewitt: Yeah, "hearted" is such a, an incredible choice there; 180 00:12:08,680 --> 00:12:11,950 even if the word is given to you, you know, it carries such strength. 181 00:12:12,550 --> 00:12:16,870 There's a line in the poem there that the wall being "held together 182 00:12:16,870 --> 00:12:21,520 / by gravity and friction." And it seemed it could almost be a sort of 183 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:27,880 manifesto for poetry, the way a poem could be made. You know, there 184 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:34,030 are certain elements that spark off each other or seem to pull in 185 00:12:34,030 --> 00:12:36,850 opposite directions, and then there has to be this kind of gravity 186 00:12:36,850 --> 00:12:42,940 that, that centers the whole poem and perhaps "spalls" is just—there 187 00:12:43,060 --> 00:12:47,560 could be no other thing in this poem. You know, the poem covers 188 00:12:47,590 --> 00:12:53,650 roughly a day. You know, we begin with breakfast, and then we move 189 00:12:53,680 --> 00:12:58,480 towards the evening, but you fold so much life inside it, whether 190 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:03,670 it's just the geography of Ireland, where your parents are coming from, 191 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,360 a movement across time. As you said, you know, there's a poem 192 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:13,060 looking back over 30 years; I wonder where that folded into the 193 00:13:13,060 --> 00:13:18,520 poem. You know, did the poem begin small and expand, or did it begin 194 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:22,600 big and, and center down into the dry stone wall? What's the 195 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,140 relationship between the the image and the, and the scope of the poem? 196 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,604 Jane Clarke: Yeah, it, it began with that journey across country, 197 00:13:29,676 --> 00:13:34,547 and my awareness that my parents, they didn't even like crossing the 198 00:13:34,619 --> 00:13:39,561 Shannon, so to come to Wicklow was such a long way for them. But from 199 00:13:39,633 --> 00:13:44,289 the beginning, it was one day. I mean, it's very much evoked by a 200 00:13:44,361 --> 00:13:49,089 typical day with them. But there were more details in it, so I did 201 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:53,601 cut it back to what seemed most important. And then, I put in 202 00:13:53,673 --> 00:13:58,616 those little things that my mother used to say, because I kept a note 203 00:13:58,687 --> 00:14:03,415 of, you know, advices mom used to give me for the garden. So I had 204 00:14:03,487 --> 00:14:08,286 kept that, and I found that on my desk one day, and I thought, "Oh, 205 00:14:08,358 --> 00:14:12,727 yeah, they all, they're so wonderful. They what they all mean 206 00:14:12,799 --> 00:14:17,598 in other levels." So I put those in, you know, a little bit further 207 00:14:17,670 --> 00:14:18,960 on in the process. 208 00:14:18,900 --> 00:14:22,890 Seán Hewitt: Yeah, it was only this year I learned about marigolds and 209 00:14:22,950 --> 00:14:26,730 companion planting and sacrificial planting and all these sorts of 210 00:14:26,730 --> 00:14:31,980 things. But there's so much secret knowledge in a garden, I think. 211 00:14:32,010 --> 00:14:38,070 Yeah, in some ways, that makes the poem—folklore is the wrong word, 212 00:14:38,070 --> 00:14:41,850 but you know, as in the knowledge of people, that is passed down 213 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:46,110 through the poem. And there's so much, like you say, that people 214 00:14:46,110 --> 00:14:52,590 never write down and becomes lost over time. This poem, you know, I'm 215 00:14:52,590 --> 00:14:57,360 glad you explained that, that it began and in this kitchen and with 216 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:01,140 a feeling of discomfort, because when I was reading it back, I 217 00:15:01,140 --> 00:15:05,610 thought that line, "but their daughter loved a woman," is kind of 218 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:10,260 the detonation point of the poem, or the the point at which 219 00:15:10,290 --> 00:15:15,570 everything around it begins to change in significance. And often, 220 00:15:15,570 --> 00:15:19,920 poems have these, these small, little places where you think, "Ah, 221 00:15:20,370 --> 00:15:25,110 that is the heart of the poem. That is where everything is hinging on." 222 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:32,430 It seems to me to be a poem not only about discomfort, but also the 223 00:15:32,430 --> 00:15:36,720 love of overcoming, or even trying to overcome, a discomfort, and all 224 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:40,560 the other things that we give to each other, But it seems that your 225 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:44,730 instinct is to extend grace and to see the poem as a sort of 226 00:15:44,730 --> 00:15:47,790 empathetic place for thinking and feeling. 227 00:15:47,870 --> 00:15:52,400 Jane Clarke: Yes, it's funny, I sometimes wonder, because I started 228 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,690 writing in my early 40s, I wonder, would it have been very different? 229 00:15:57,140 --> 00:15:59,660 Of course, it would have been different if I'd started writing my 230 00:15:59,660 --> 00:16:05,450 early 20s. By that time in my life, I had learned a lot about how how 231 00:16:05,450 --> 00:16:10,910 to process difficult emotions and how to make sense and how to take 232 00:16:10,910 --> 00:16:15,140 responsibility myself. Like I always say, it's something about 233 00:16:15,140 --> 00:16:20,180 how do you stay really close to emotion and distance from it? I 234 00:16:20,180 --> 00:16:24,920 think we need to do that as poets. Look at it—and again, that's what I 235 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,850 learned to do in psychoanalysis, to look at what is happening to 236 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,910 one—and I think that's what we do in poetry. 237 00:16:32,630 --> 00:16:37,070 Seán Hewitt: Do you think that poetic form helps you to do that? 238 00:16:37,070 --> 00:16:41,990 Because it you know, you can start moving things around you. You've 239 00:16:41,990 --> 00:16:46,310 got a framework in which the emotion has to be somewhat 240 00:16:46,310 --> 00:16:52,790 distanced from you, and you bring in a thinking brain as well as a 241 00:16:52,790 --> 00:16:55,970 feeling brain. Yeah, do you think that's something about what form is 242 00:16:55,970 --> 00:16:56,420 for?" 243 00:16:56,020 --> 00:17:00,212 Jane Clarke: Yes, I think form does it, and the editing to find a form 244 00:17:00,285 --> 00:17:05,213 does it. The editing process really helps that. I mean, I think the 245 00:17:05,287 --> 00:17:10,141 first draft, in a way, is often just full of emotional energy, and 246 00:17:10,215 --> 00:17:14,849 then to make it something that's meaningful to others, it's the 247 00:17:14,922 --> 00:17:19,850 pulling back, it's the looking, and it's finding the form that will 248 00:17:19,924 --> 00:17:24,999 express it so that it isn't just a diary entry. I mean isn't that the 249 00:17:25,072 --> 00:17:29,779 big thing to move the poem from something that's just a personal 250 00:17:29,853 --> 00:17:34,340 expression to something that will be meaningful to the other? 251 00:17:34,810 --> 00:17:38,890 Seán Hewitt: Yeah, I mean, it's such a difficult trick to learn. It 252 00:17:38,890 --> 00:17:43,000 takes a lot of time to be able to distinguish the point at which 253 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,570 something becomes meaningful to other people, and sometimes it's 254 00:17:46,570 --> 00:17:51,610 trial and error. You're always the first reader of your poem. And of 255 00:17:51,610 --> 00:17:55,480 course, the poem means a lot to you because you, you made it. And 256 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,840 sometimes I think, you know, those early drafts that are full of anger 257 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:05,500 and expression really resonate with you as a writer, because you 258 00:18:05,500 --> 00:18:10,300 finally got it out, you've got the feeling out, but that feeling has 259 00:18:10,300 --> 00:18:15,670 to be given a form and a shape in order to be felt by other people as 260 00:18:15,670 --> 00:18:21,010 well. Yeah, how do you know when a poem is done for you? 261 00:18:21,810 --> 00:18:24,480 Jane Clarke: Well, first of all to say that I have a wonderful 262 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:28,860 workshop group. Okay, so I have, you know, four colleagues who I 263 00:18:28,860 --> 00:18:34,170 meet once a month. I can't stress how fortunate I am to have them. 264 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,910 Usually we, I bring two poems a month there, and I work as much as 265 00:18:38,910 --> 00:18:43,530 I can on them before I go there, and in between times, my wife will 266 00:18:43,530 --> 00:18:47,940 probably have heard them and given a kind of a "mmm" or whatever 267 00:18:48,030 --> 00:18:54,210 reaction. And so I bring them there, and they give me feedback. 268 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:58,230 And then I go back again to myself. And usually it's in the next 269 00:18:58,230 --> 00:19:01,200 iteration where I get a sense of whether it's ready. But for 270 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,810 example, there's a whole life of a poem, isn't there? 271 00:19:04,020 --> 00:19:07,020 Seán Hewitt: Yeah. I mean, sometimes poems are left in a 272 00:19:07,020 --> 00:19:12,060 drawer for for months or years and you have the experience of picking 273 00:19:12,060 --> 00:19:16,320 them up. And even if there's a line or an idea, it's still there and 274 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:21,480 suddenly, you know, like a meeting in a kitchen, it suddenly locks 275 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:23,520 into place, or something comes of it. 276 00:19:23,550 --> 00:19:24,840 Jane Clarke: Yeah, that's it. 277 00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:28,487 Seán Hewitt: It's really important never to throw anything, because 278 00:19:28,561 --> 00:19:33,583 you never know when your mind or your life becomes ready to, to make 279 00:19:33,657 --> 00:19:38,753 that poem. So it's a waiting game. You said originally that this poem 280 00:19:38,826 --> 00:19:43,627 was called "Under the Holly" and now "Spalls," but what to you is 281 00:19:43,700 --> 00:19:48,279 the, the difference in resonance between those two titles? I'm 282 00:19:48,353 --> 00:19:53,079 always amazed by the way that people choose titles and, and what 283 00:19:53,153 --> 00:19:55,000 a title can do to a poem. 284 00:19:55,000 --> 00:20:00,190 Jane Clarke: Yes, I know that's good question. Somehow I just. I 285 00:20:00,190 --> 00:20:04,450 know sometimes it's there isn't an intellectual answer to that. It 286 00:20:04,450 --> 00:20:08,350 just felt like you're "hearted with handfuls of spalls" That's what's 287 00:20:08,350 --> 00:20:12,040 at the heart of the poem, I guess. It had to be that. You know? 288 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:17,430 Seán Hewitt: Yeah, there's something almost Heaney-esque about 289 00:20:17,460 --> 00:20:21,630 the word, or the use of the word in this poem. And obviously Ireland 290 00:20:21,630 --> 00:20:29,160 has such a strong tradition of pastoral poetry, and I wonder what 291 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:33,420 your relationship to that tradition is. Is it something you're aware of 292 00:20:33,420 --> 00:20:37,650 as you're writing? Is it something you're kind of constantly working 293 00:20:37,770 --> 00:20:41,490 with or pushing against or, you know, how do you think about that? 294 00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:46,110 Jane Clarke: I think...I think working with, I would say, I mean, 295 00:20:46,140 --> 00:20:50,610 for example, Patrick Kavanagh. I am just so lucky that there was a 296 00:20:50,610 --> 00:20:54,390 Patrick Kavanagh, that's how I feel. I feel so fortunate. His way 297 00:20:54,390 --> 00:21:00,000 of writing, you know, what he does with the ordinary—he makes it 298 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:04,260 extraordinary, how he brings, you know, the small ordinariness and 299 00:21:04,260 --> 00:21:07,410 makes it universal. All of that. I learned an awful lot from Patrick 300 00:21:07,410 --> 00:21:11,430 Kavanagh. And you know, I just adore his work as, as with Heaney, 301 00:21:11,670 --> 00:21:15,900 you know, we have such a good, strong tradition. And also, I have 302 00:21:15,900 --> 00:21:21,420 found that in, in poets in the States, in poets, you know, English 303 00:21:21,420 --> 00:21:26,340 poets, UK poets, so I wouldn't like to say that it's just the Irish 304 00:21:26,340 --> 00:21:30,450 poet, but I suppose maybe a few of them are very special to me, but 305 00:21:30,450 --> 00:21:32,490 I've also found it elsewhere. 306 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:36,420 Seán Hewitt: One of the things that is interesting, I don't know if I 307 00:21:36,420 --> 00:21:41,490 kind of invented this as a, as my own anxiety when I started writing, 308 00:21:41,490 --> 00:21:49,290 but I remember being aware in my own mind that queer poetry, or 309 00:21:49,530 --> 00:21:56,160 whatever you'd like to call it, was an urban thing, and that the 310 00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:02,190 pastoral tradition or, or the nature poem was often not part of 311 00:22:02,190 --> 00:22:07,890 the same tradition. And I wonder if that is something that you were 312 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:15,330 aware of, or if it's something that you are trying. You know, even just 313 00:22:15,330 --> 00:22:20,040 by dint of being who you are, where you are, do you feel that you are 314 00:22:20,100 --> 00:22:28,170 writing into a tradition, that you're changing in a respectful and 315 00:22:28,170 --> 00:22:31,920 positive way, but just by by the presence of your poems? 316 00:22:32,350 --> 00:22:35,350 Jane Clarke: Well, yeah, no, it's a really good question. I'm really 317 00:22:35,350 --> 00:22:39,850 glad to have been part of broadening the tradition and making 318 00:22:39,850 --> 00:22:44,170 it more inclusive. And that is really important to me. And it's 319 00:22:44,170 --> 00:22:48,130 funny, because it also comes from having grown up a farm in 320 00:22:48,220 --> 00:22:52,780 Roscommon, and I went to Dublin when I was 19 to study. And it was 321 00:22:52,780 --> 00:22:57,940 Dublin where I found the freedom to come out, and, you know, to explore 322 00:22:57,940 --> 00:23:01,990 lots of different things, socialism and feminism, and you know. So I 323 00:23:01,990 --> 00:23:06,850 don't glorify rural Ireland, and I am very aware of the limitations, 324 00:23:06,850 --> 00:23:10,990 particularly then. Now it has changed enormously, but still, if I 325 00:23:10,990 --> 00:23:16,510 was going into a mart in some town in Ireland, I would presume 326 00:23:17,290 --> 00:23:20,890 homophobia, which—I don't think that's right anymore, but that's my 327 00:23:20,890 --> 00:23:27,370 instinct. My instinct would be to censor myself. In the last 20 328 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:32,050 years, as you know, it, has opened up remarkably. Civil partnership 329 00:23:32,050 --> 00:23:35,920 made a difference to my writing, Seán. You know, marriage equality 330 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,160 made a difference to my writing. I really like to tell people that, 331 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,550 because people think, "What would legal, you know, change? What would 332 00:23:42,550 --> 00:23:46,000 change in the referendum have to do with your creativity?" It has 333 00:23:46,210 --> 00:23:47,530 everything to do with that. 334 00:23:48,020 --> 00:23:49,340 Seán Hewitt: And how did it change it? 335 00:23:49,900 --> 00:23:55,780 Jane Clarke: Well, it..and I suppose because I and and my wife, 336 00:23:55,810 --> 00:24:01,960 we felt more able to be open. We felt more part of everything, 337 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,740 rather than that bit of being on the outside, and I really think 338 00:24:05,740 --> 00:24:11,710 that made a difference to how able and open I felt to express one of 339 00:24:11,710 --> 00:24:15,910 the most important things in my life, my love for my partner. You 340 00:24:15,910 --> 00:24:20,440 know, the poem "Wife," the poem "June." All those poems, I wouldn't 341 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,460 have been able to write them because I was being cautious. I was 342 00:24:24,460 --> 00:24:28,300 doing the censorship. I know, I know young queer people don't 343 00:24:28,300 --> 00:24:34,120 necessarily censor the way we did, but we grew up in a time of, you 344 00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:39,730 know, self-censorship for protection. 345 00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:46,600 Seán Hewitt: Yeah, and it's so good to hear that actually social and 346 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:52,300 political change can, can free writers because, you know, we often 347 00:24:52,300 --> 00:25:00,400 think about writers as loving a bit of oppression and difficulty, and 348 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,540 that is where art comes from. But the idea that it might also be 349 00:25:04,540 --> 00:25:11,860 spurred by freedom and a loss of constraints is, I think, a really 350 00:25:11,860 --> 00:25:17,590 positive and quite hopeful way of looking at of looking at writing. 351 00:25:17,650 --> 00:25:18,280 Jane Clarke: Yeah. 352 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,640 Seán Hewitt: I think it might be a good time to take a break, and then 353 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,510 we're going to come back and talk about an American poet who, who you 354 00:25:25,510 --> 00:25:31,180 admire. And it's a really surreal and quite chilling poem. Looking 355 00:25:31,180 --> 00:25:34,570 forward to talking to you about it. Thanks, Jane. 356 00:25:34,750 --> 00:25:35,530 Jane Clarke: Thanks Sean. 357 00:25:46,210 --> 00:25:48,550 Cathy & Peter Halstead: We hope you’re enjoying this second season 358 00:25:48,550 --> 00:25:52,930 of The Glimpse. It’s just one small part of the Adrian Brinkerhoff 359 00:25:52,930 --> 00:25:57,760 Poetry Foundation. We’re the founders, Peter and Cathy Halstead. 360 00:25:58,210 --> 00:26:03,400 Our goal is to make great poetry more accessible to everyone, and we 361 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:08,110 do that in a variety of ways: through partnerships, our film 362 00:26:08,110 --> 00:26:14,650 series, this podcast, and our website, brinkerhoffpoetry.org. We 363 00:26:14,650 --> 00:26:19,240 hope these works will lure you into a parallel universe, the way a 364 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,650 Möbius strip brings you into another dimension without leaving 365 00:26:23,650 --> 00:26:26,710 the page you’re on. Thank you so much for listening. 366 00:26:28,870 --> 00:26:32,920 Seán Hewitt: Jane Clarke, welcome back to The Glimpse you've chosen 367 00:26:32,950 --> 00:26:36,610 for us, a poem by Natasha Trethewey, would you tell us a 368 00:26:36,610 --> 00:26:37,510 little bit about it? 369 00:26:38,380 --> 00:26:41,650 Jane Clarke: Yes, it's it's a pantoum. 370 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:45,740 Seán Hewitt: And I was going to ask you that, so I'm glad you said. I 371 00:26:45,740 --> 00:26:48,860 was here googling the rules of pantoums, just to check that it 372 00:26:48,860 --> 00:26:50,120 definitely was. Okay. 373 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,600 Jane Clarke: So the you know, the second and fourth lines repeated as 374 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,290 the first and third lines of the following stanza. But it's such a 375 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:03,980 fabulous pantoum; it's a really chilling poem. And it is about a 376 00:27:04,010 --> 00:27:11,030 cross-burning by the KKK on a lawn in Mississippi. Well, I presume in 377 00:27:11,030 --> 00:27:16,820 Mississippi, because that's where Natasha Trethewey grew up. And I 378 00:27:16,820 --> 00:27:21,920 think what's really striking about the poem is the understatement and 379 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:22,940 the reticence. 380 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:28,090 Seán Hewitt: Yeah, it's a really chilling, quite strange poem. I 381 00:27:28,090 --> 00:27:33,010 read it a couple of times before I got this picture coalescing of what 382 00:27:33,010 --> 00:27:36,370 was what was happening. Would you read it for us? 383 00:27:36,570 --> 00:27:44,340 Jane Clarke: Yes. "Incident" We tell the story every year—/ how we 384 00:27:44,340 --> 00:27:49,050 peered from the windows, shades drawn— / though nothing really 385 00:27:49,050 --> 00:27:55,050 happened, / the charred grass, now green again. // We peered from the 386 00:27:55,050 --> 00:28:00,600 windows, shades drawn, / at the cross trussed like a Christmas 387 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:06,990 tree, / the charred grass still green. Then / we darkened our 388 00:28:06,990 --> 00:28:12,780 rooms, lit the hurricane lamps. // At the cross trussed like a 389 00:28:12,780 --> 00:28:17,490 Christmas tree, / a few men gathered, white as angels in their 390 00:28:17,490 --> 00:28:23,550 gowns. / We darkened our rooms and lit hurricane lamps, / the wicks 391 00:28:23,580 --> 00:28:29,340 trembling in their fonts of oil. // It seemed the angels had gathered, 392 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:34,380 white men in their gowns. / When they were done, they left quietly. 393 00:28:34,860 --> 00:28:40,560 No one came. / The wicks trembled all night in their fonts of oil; / 394 00:28:40,950 --> 00:28:45,960 by morning, the flames had all dimmed. // When they were done, the 395 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:52,500 men left quietly. No one came. / Nothing really happened. / By 396 00:28:52,500 --> 00:28:58,500 morning all the flames had dimmed. / We tell the story every year. 397 00:29:00,340 --> 00:29:05,440 Seán Hewitt: It's such a brilliant poem. I wonder if part of the 398 00:29:05,740 --> 00:29:11,290 reason that it's, it's so chilling is, is that actually, if you read 399 00:29:11,290 --> 00:29:15,460 it in one way, and you take some of the cues of the language, you have 400 00:29:15,700 --> 00:29:21,940 angels, Christmas trees, a sense of almost holiness with the candles 401 00:29:21,940 --> 00:29:28,180 and the fonts, and it might read in the back of your mind like an 402 00:29:28,180 --> 00:29:31,900 entirely different poem. And there's something about the way in 403 00:29:31,900 --> 00:29:38,380 which that scene is being made to sit alongside religious and 404 00:29:38,530 --> 00:29:44,620 Christmas-like settings that throws the mind in such a strange 405 00:29:44,650 --> 00:29:48,970 and surreal direction that by the time it coalesces in your head 406 00:29:48,970 --> 00:29:52,600 what's going on and what the story is actually about, you find 407 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,890 yourself very disturbed by, by the set of images that have been chosen 408 00:29:56,890 --> 00:29:57,370 for it. 409 00:29:57,850 --> 00:30:01,000 Jane Clarke: Yes, and like you say, I think. You do have to read it a 410 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,810 few times to get a really good sense of actually what's happening 411 00:30:04,810 --> 00:30:05,290 here. 412 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,090 Seán Hewitt: Yeah, yeah, it's really chilling. I think the 413 00:30:08,450 --> 00:30:11,810 pantoum as well—it's not a form I've ever tried to write in, 414 00:30:11,810 --> 00:30:16,760 because I always run scared of kind of received forms, particularly 415 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,930 repeating forms. But there's something about the way that these 416 00:30:20,930 --> 00:30:25,820 images recur and are subtly changed. You know, we, we go over 417 00:30:25,820 --> 00:30:31,220 the course of a night, but the same ideas keep on returning. It feels 418 00:30:31,220 --> 00:30:34,730 like a dream. It feels like a distant memory. The way this the 419 00:30:34,730 --> 00:30:38,180 set of images are just pushing at the back of of the consciousness of 420 00:30:38,180 --> 00:30:38,660 the poem. 421 00:30:38,690 --> 00:30:42,560 Jane Clarke: Yes, and obviously the first line "We tell the story every 422 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:47,120 year," so doesn't the repetition do that as well? So we keep telling 423 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:51,200 the story through the poem as well. And that's a bit like a family 424 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:56,030 story that, you know, the way it does get told again and again. And 425 00:30:56,030 --> 00:30:59,240 there are some details that get repeated. And you sometimes wonder, 426 00:30:59,690 --> 00:31:02,990 "Well, what, was it actually like that?" But we get attached to those 427 00:31:02,990 --> 00:31:05,990 details yeah as a way of telling it. 428 00:31:06,020 --> 00:31:10,010 Seán Hewitt: Yeah and, and even that line seems to be somewhat 429 00:31:10,010 --> 00:31:14,120 undone by the poem. "We tell the story every year." So you're kind 430 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:20,030 of led to expect events and narrative and resolution. And it 431 00:31:20,030 --> 00:31:24,440 doesn't, almost doesn't fit the word story at all. It feels like 432 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,890 there's a sort of doubt and strangeness in the way that it's 433 00:31:27,890 --> 00:31:33,530 made. But it has this secret underneath it that is just slowly 434 00:31:33,530 --> 00:31:39,800 boiling away in an unsettling way. And I wonder, if you know, do you 435 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:44,570 think that this is an example of how that restraint in poetry works 436 00:31:44,570 --> 00:31:47,930 to good effect? Is that something that, you know, drew you to this 437 00:31:47,930 --> 00:31:48,710 poem as well? 438 00:31:48,770 --> 00:31:55,490 Jane Clarke: Yeah. I think the the holding back the restraint makes us 439 00:31:55,490 --> 00:32:01,550 feel it all the more. That's what it does for me, because she doesn't 440 00:32:01,550 --> 00:32:05,150 spill out all the different feelings, and that—for any family 441 00:32:05,150 --> 00:32:09,980 to go through that, the horror of that! I mean, surely we go through 442 00:32:09,980 --> 00:32:14,480 the trauma every single year. We relive the trauma every year. But 443 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,540 she steps back from that. She doesn't allow herself to do that. 444 00:32:17,750 --> 00:32:20,510 She doesn't say, "Look at the terrible thing that happened to 445 00:32:20,510 --> 00:32:27,140 us." She just puts it at a distance. And through that, then we 446 00:32:27,140 --> 00:32:30,140 have our reaction, whereas otherwise we'd be just reading her 447 00:32:30,140 --> 00:32:34,130 reaction. Do you see what I mean? But I think she, she allows, you 448 00:32:34,130 --> 00:32:39,110 know, so much space for the reader to feel it themselves by that 449 00:32:39,110 --> 00:32:39,860 distance. 450 00:32:39,870 --> 00:32:42,120 Seán Hewitt: Yeah, there's something about the poem, and I was 451 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,390 looking to see if there was actually a clue to this, or if I 452 00:32:45,390 --> 00:32:49,260 just assumed it, and I think I've just assumed it. But it feels like 453 00:32:49,290 --> 00:32:54,780 the way a child might experience a scene. Perhaps it's putting us in a 454 00:32:54,780 --> 00:32:59,910 place where we don't quite know what's going on, but we see these, 455 00:32:59,970 --> 00:33:05,100 these men arrive, and why should they be "like angels?" You know, 456 00:33:05,100 --> 00:33:08,970 there's no reason that these men, once we know who they are, should 457 00:33:08,970 --> 00:33:12,600 be described as being "like angels," but maybe that's an 458 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,610 association in a child's mind. 459 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:15,480 Jane Clarke: Yes! 460 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:17,820 Seán Hewitt: Did you read it as a child's perspective? 461 00:33:17,940 --> 00:33:20,640 Jane Clarke: Yes, I, well, I probably did, actually, when you 462 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:25,110 say that, because it reminded me of a story my mother told and what 463 00:33:25,110 --> 00:33:28,950 happened to my mother was when she was three, so obviously, you know, 464 00:33:28,950 --> 00:33:32,610 she was telling the story through a child's eyes. So I think you're 465 00:33:32,610 --> 00:33:36,840 right. I think that's part of what gives it a very particular tone. 466 00:33:37,050 --> 00:33:39,360 Seán Hewitt: Yeah, and there's something about, you know, that 467 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,930 even the way you were speaking before, about how, you know, it 468 00:33:42,930 --> 00:33:46,350 might take 30 years for an idea to click into place. And sometimes 469 00:33:46,350 --> 00:33:50,790 that's what we do with childhood memories as well. You know, we, for 470 00:33:50,790 --> 00:33:54,240 some reason, have remembered something someone said to us, or 471 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,110 that we saw a certain thing when we were three or four years old, and 472 00:33:58,110 --> 00:34:02,460 then maybe 20 or 30 years later, we get the second piece of information 473 00:34:02,460 --> 00:34:05,880 that clicks it, and we think, "Ah, that's what that was, or that's why 474 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:06,600 I remember it." 475 00:34:07,170 --> 00:34:09,330 Jane Clarke: I think that's a really, really good way of looking 476 00:34:09,330 --> 00:34:12,930 at it, the idea of the child and then the adult working with it, 477 00:34:12,930 --> 00:34:17,310 because, like, you say, like, even fonts of oil, there's the religious 478 00:34:17,340 --> 00:34:23,490 symbology coming in there. So, so I think it's that mixture of, you 479 00:34:23,490 --> 00:34:27,780 know, the child's impression, the family's way of repeating it, and 480 00:34:27,780 --> 00:34:33,330 then an adult, I think, realizing what this all is. And I think the 481 00:34:33,330 --> 00:34:38,400 poet lets us be the adult, realizing, and almost looking at 482 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,900 the child behind the curtains, looking out. We can see this family 483 00:34:43,110 --> 00:34:44,730 looking out at what's happening. 484 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:48,357 Seán Hewitt: Even the reluctance in the title to name what the incident 485 00:34:48,433 --> 00:34:53,665 is. You know, that's another way of holding a secret inside the poem. 486 00:34:53,741 --> 00:34:58,518 And you know, there's something deeply kind of unsettling about 487 00:34:58,593 --> 00:35:03,825 these angels kind of appearing at a house. And "the charred grass now 488 00:35:03,901 --> 00:35:09,209 green again." Or "the charred grass still green." That seems to put me 489 00:35:09,285 --> 00:35:14,365 in two different time frames in this poem. You know, it's gone back 490 00:35:14,441 --> 00:35:19,824 to being green, or it was green and then it was charred. You know, it's 491 00:35:19,900 --> 00:35:23,540 kind of mixing time in a really interesting way. 492 00:35:23,660 --> 00:35:26,900 Jane Clarke: And isn't it, sort of exploring history in the present, 493 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:31,280 because the charred grass is now green, but actually it was charred. 494 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:36,470 It'll always have been charred by—what happened shapes that lawn 495 00:35:36,470 --> 00:35:41,120 today. You know, as as what happened shapes that family and 496 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,820 that community and that society and that country. 497 00:35:44,050 --> 00:35:46,900 Seán Hewitt: Which is something perhaps, about the pantoum that 498 00:35:46,900 --> 00:35:50,890 helps there as well, because it's a circular, kind of repeating form. 499 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,550 Even if it moves somewhere, you kind of get the sense of pantoums, 500 00:35:54,580 --> 00:35:58,270 so I do, that they might just go on after you finished reading them, 501 00:35:58,780 --> 00:36:02,320 they keep on moving around in circles, even if you're not there 502 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,220 to watch them. I often say to students, you know, you can write 503 00:36:06,220 --> 00:36:09,910 it in a form and then dismantle the form around it, but sometimes the 504 00:36:09,910 --> 00:36:13,240 form helps you get to where you need to go. It doesn't have to end 505 00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:17,860 up as a pantoum, in can be unmade in a better way than you might have 506 00:36:17,860 --> 00:36:22,420 made it just with your own devices. And what are you working on now? 507 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,110 Jane Clarke: Well, I'm working on my fourth collection, which is 508 00:36:26,110 --> 00:36:29,860 exciting, and I have a date September 26th. 509 00:36:29,950 --> 00:36:32,410 Seán Hewitt: Oh, you do? Oh, that’s exciting, that’s great. 510 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,330 Jane Clarke: I'm very excited. So no, I'm still, you know, getting it 511 00:36:35,330 --> 00:36:39,380 there, you know, but yeah, that's, that's the plan at the moment. And 512 00:36:39,380 --> 00:36:46,370 then I'm also working on a book of my poems, illustrations and some 513 00:36:46,370 --> 00:36:50,960 reflections about making space for nature in Ireland. So they're my 514 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:52,190 two projects at the moment. 515 00:36:52,220 --> 00:36:55,100 Seán Hewitt: That is plenty to be getting on with I can't wait for 516 00:36:55,100 --> 00:36:59,900 the new collection. Jane Clarke, it has been such a pleasure to speak 517 00:36:59,900 --> 00:37:03,110 to you and hear about all these poems and your thoughts about them. 518 00:37:03,380 --> 00:37:05,630 Thank you very much for coming on to The Glimpse. 519 00:37:05,660 --> 00:37:09,950 Jane Clarke: Thank you, Seán. I've really enjoyed it. 520 00:37:14,090 --> 00:37:17,120 Seán Hewitt: Thanks for joining us today. I’m your host, Seán Hewitt. 521 00:37:18,050 --> 00:37:21,890 Jane’s poem “Spalls” is from her book A Change in the Air, published 522 00:37:21,890 --> 00:37:25,100 in 2023 and aired with the permission of Bloodaxe Books. 523 00:37:25,670 --> 00:37:29,300 Natasha Trethewey’s poem "Incident" is from her book Monument, 524 00:37:29,540 --> 00:37:34,400 Copyright (c) 2006 and 2018 by Natasha Trethewey. It was aired 525 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,460 with the permission of HarperCollins Publishers and Massie 526 00:37:37,460 --> 00:37:39,440 & McQuilkin as agents for the author. 527 00:37:42,410 --> 00:37:44,960 Make sure to subscribe to The Glimpse wherever you get your 528 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,080 podcasts. You can also find episodes on our website, 529 00:37:48,290 --> 00:37:53,000 brinkerhoffpoetry.org/podcast. We’d also love to hear from you; drop us 530 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,610 an email at theglimpsepoetrypodcast@gmail.com. 531 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,680 The Glimpse is a production of the Adrian Brinkerhoff Poetry 532 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:05,060 Foundation. I’m your host, Seán Hewitt. Our Senior Producer is 533 00:38:05,060 --> 00:38:08,510 Jennifer Wolfe, Kat Yore is our technical director and mixing 534 00:38:08,510 --> 00:38:12,650 engineer. Editorial Director Amanda Glassman is our curator and 535 00:38:12,650 --> 00:38:16,340 production coordinator. Amy Holmes is the foundation’s Executive 536 00:38:16,340 --> 00:38:19,850 Director, and our co-founders are Cathy and Peter Halstead. 537 00:38:21,230 --> 00:38:24,530 And that’s it for this second season of The Glimpse! It’s been a 538 00:38:24,530 --> 00:38:28,130 pleasure to be in conversation with these writers and their words, and 539 00:38:28,130 --> 00:38:31,460 to share those conversations with you. I hope you’ll keep it going, 540 00:38:31,700 --> 00:38:35,510 keep reading poems, and join us for the next season of The Glimpse. 541 00:38:36,050 --> 00:38:36,950 Thanks for listening.