1 00:00:02,550 --> 00:00:03,570 Seán Hewitt: The Glimpse. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:08,460 Stephen Sexton: So there are certain formal ideas that are 3 00:00:08,460 --> 00:00:11,130 comfortable to me. There's a certain length of line that I tend 4 00:00:11,130 --> 00:00:14,190 to like. There's a certain musicality that I'm always going to 5 00:00:14,190 --> 00:00:18,090 be drawn to, but in most cases, I don't want to know where I'm going. 6 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:22,830 Seán Hewitt: Welcome to The Glimpse. I'm your host, Seán 7 00:00:22,830 --> 00:00:27,420 Hewitt. Stephen Sexton likes a certain amount of mystery. He's the 8 00:00:27,420 --> 00:00:29,790 author of two books of poems, including, If All the World and 9 00:00:29,790 --> 00:00:32,820 Love Were Young, winner of the Forward Prize for Best Collection. 10 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:37,260 In 2020, he was awarded the E.M. Forster Award and the Rooney Prize 11 00:00:37,260 --> 00:00:40,860 for Irish Literature. He teaches at the Seamus Heaney Centre, Queen's 12 00:00:40,860 --> 00:00:45,510 University Belfast. Stephen Sexton is our guest today on The Glimpse. 13 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,390 Whether he is melding elegy with the world of Super Mario or staging 14 00:00:54,390 --> 00:00:58,230 an imagined conversation between W.B. Yeats and the singer of the 15 00:00:58,230 --> 00:01:02,310 Smashing Pumpkins, Stephen Sexton's poem set up a dance of the 16 00:01:02,310 --> 00:01:06,960 intellect, a real humanity and a playful, inquisitive sense of form. 17 00:01:07,470 --> 00:01:11,580 In Stephen's work, there is always an element of surprise, of joy and 18 00:01:11,580 --> 00:01:16,140 language, of generous humanity, and the underlying links of ideas are 19 00:01:16,140 --> 00:01:21,270 fused or allowed to spark off and illumine one another. I love the 20 00:01:21,270 --> 00:01:24,930 sense that we might never quite know where a poem is going until we 21 00:01:24,930 --> 00:01:29,400 get there. And in Stephen's case, each of his poems feels like an 22 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:33,840 event in thinking. Stephen Sexton, welcome to The Glimpse. It's great 23 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:34,320 to have you here. 24 00:01:34,650 --> 00:01:36,330 Stephen Sexton: Thank you, Seán. My pleasure entirely. 25 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:38,520 Seán Hewitt: Where are you speaking to us from? 26 00:01:39,030 --> 00:01:42,300 Stephen Sexton: I'm speaking to you from Derry in the northwest of 27 00:01:42,300 --> 00:01:47,700 Ireland, from a very newly refurbished, let's say, attic room, 28 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,990 which has all my books finally together again in one place. 29 00:01:52,050 --> 00:01:53,190 Seán Hewitt: They're all reunited 30 00:01:53,340 --> 00:01:53,940 Stephen Sexton: Finally. 31 00:01:54,530 --> 00:01:57,230 Seán Hewitt: Just before we pressed record, Stephen was talking me 32 00:01:57,230 --> 00:02:02,060 through a beautiful set of book shelves behind him, and they are 33 00:02:02,060 --> 00:02:06,230 painted in what we have now identified as "Eating Room Red," 34 00:02:06,500 --> 00:02:09,950 and it's a lovely color, and can I hear a dog barking? 35 00:02:10,670 --> 00:02:13,340 Stephen Sexton: If you hear a dog barking, it's a dog that's about to 36 00:02:13,340 --> 00:02:16,850 leave this building. I hadn't realized that she hadn't already 37 00:02:16,850 --> 00:02:18,980 left this building, but any moment now, 38 00:02:19,460 --> 00:02:22,760 Seán Hewitt: And how is she doing? I know you've recently got a new 39 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:24,950 puppy, right? In the last year or so? 40 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:29,150 Stephen Sexton: Oh, she's very strong and spirited, let's say 41 00:02:29,150 --> 00:02:30,170 Seán Hewitt: That's strong willed. 42 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:36,390 Seán Hewitt: So I would love to begin by asking you to read your 43 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:30,860 Stephen Sexton: Very much so. 44 00:02:36,390 --> 00:02:40,890 poem. It's a new one of yours, one that I hadn't read in either of 45 00:02:40,890 --> 00:02:45,900 your collections. I wondered if you could identify in it— you know, 46 00:02:45,930 --> 00:02:50,130 before you read it— anything that might be changing in your own work, 47 00:02:50,130 --> 00:02:54,840 or how it feels to have new poems that aren't collected and kind of 48 00:02:55,350 --> 00:02:57,600 be embarking on that process again. 49 00:02:58,260 --> 00:03:01,140 Stephen Sexton: Thanks for asking. I mean, I guess to some extent, I'm 50 00:03:01,140 --> 00:03:06,270 always aware that I want to be making new things. And that's not 51 00:03:06,270 --> 00:03:10,440 simply the act of writing a poem. It's a shift in thinking or a 52 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,400 formal shift, maybe, although in some cases they might be the same 53 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:20,070 thing. I mean, what this is doing, in my opinion, is going to a 54 00:03:20,070 --> 00:03:24,390 slightly different kind of philosophical tone or mood that 55 00:03:24,420 --> 00:03:26,760 ordinarily I'd be inclined to avoid. 56 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:32,210 I like stuff. I love being in the world. I love thinking, not too 57 00:03:32,210 --> 00:03:35,690 much. But for some reason or another, I find myself going 58 00:03:35,690 --> 00:03:39,320 slightly towards the spiritual, let's say —but maybe more 59 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:43,850 specifically, Christian. I mean, I'm not a Christian person; I guess 60 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:47,420 was brought up in that way, in the way that many of us in Ireland, 61 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,870 Northern Ireland are. But recently, it's just thinking about those 62 00:03:50,870 --> 00:03:54,380 systems, thinking about those patterns of thought, and wondering 63 00:03:54,410 --> 00:03:59,060 what impact any of that has had on how I use language. Given, 64 00:03:59,060 --> 00:04:02,930 especially that's probably one of the first examples of heightened or 65 00:04:02,930 --> 00:04:06,830 metaphorical language I probably encountered. So coming back to that 66 00:04:06,830 --> 00:04:08,420 kind of thinking is happening. 67 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,020 Seán Hewitt: Yeah, I think for a lot of people, religious language 68 00:04:12,020 --> 00:04:17,510 is kind of a first introduction to poetry, even in primary school. 69 00:04:17,540 --> 00:04:23,210 Just reciting prayers or hearing hymns and all of those things kind 70 00:04:23,210 --> 00:04:26,540 of forms a bedrock, sometimes, of the way we encounter and think 71 00:04:26,540 --> 00:04:31,490 about language. Can you notice any difference in the way that language 72 00:04:31,490 --> 00:04:35,930 kind of inflects the way that you think in a poem or the way a poem 73 00:04:35,930 --> 00:04:40,910 sounds? Or are you at the point yet where you can kind of articulate 74 00:04:40,910 --> 00:04:41,900 what's going on? 75 00:04:43,190 --> 00:04:47,270 Stephen Sexton: I hope I'm not, because I really don't want to know 76 00:04:47,630 --> 00:04:51,440 most of the time. I know it's kind of a commonplace idea, but there is 77 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,920 a certain amount of mystery that I need. You know, I need that 78 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,790 negative capability. I need "going into nothing." I need the road 79 00:04:58,820 --> 00:05:02,810 towards nothing, of course and it's fairly tangible, and I know what it 80 00:05:02,810 --> 00:05:05,540 feels like, and I know how to walk along it. So there are certain 81 00:05:05,540 --> 00:05:09,110 formal ideas that are comfortable to me. There's a certain length of 82 00:05:09,110 --> 00:05:12,680 line that I tend to like. There's a certain musicality that I'm always 83 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,280 going to be drawn to. But in most cases, I don't want to know where 84 00:05:16,280 --> 00:05:21,380 I'm going. And I think one of the things that this poem does is flags 85 00:05:21,380 --> 00:05:25,970 that very early on. I mean, at he very start of this poem: perhaps an 86 00:05:25,970 --> 00:05:29,960 apology for its quite large title. I mean, the poem tries to say, 87 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:33,680 like, "I don't know, I don't know where this is going, but kind of 88 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,500 come, come with me, reader, if you're courteous enough to be 89 00:05:36,500 --> 00:05:38,390 there, and let's see where we're going." 90 00:05:38,660 --> 00:05:41,330 Seán Hewitt: Yeah, it's one of the things I love most about this poem, 91 00:05:41,330 --> 00:05:43,850 and I want to talk to you about that. Would you? Would you read it 92 00:05:43,850 --> 00:05:44,300 for us? 93 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:51,230 Stephen Sexton: The Capital of Heaven. The capital of heaven is 94 00:05:51,230 --> 00:05:58,100 the living. I don't know what I mean by that yet, but it has less 95 00:05:58,100 --> 00:06:03,020 to do with the trace of gold each person contains— a thought is 96 00:06:03,020 --> 00:06:08,810 heavier— and more with a moment today under the great canopy of oak 97 00:06:08,810 --> 00:06:15,290 trees. In the park where it is always summer, a sister was 98 00:06:15,290 --> 00:06:19,430 teaching her brother to hold a segment of clementine up to the 99 00:06:19,430 --> 00:06:24,530 sun, so the light could find the seed with the future in it, which 100 00:06:24,530 --> 00:06:31,910 he could toss over his shoulder like salt at misfortune. So much of 101 00:06:31,910 --> 00:06:40,070 everything is beyond intention; so much of sacrifice is pleasure. If 102 00:06:40,070 --> 00:06:46,070 it must be inevitable, let there be lifetimes and lifetimes before 103 00:06:46,100 --> 00:06:52,730 orange trees grow wild here in the sun-scorched grass. I don't mean 104 00:06:52,730 --> 00:06:59,870 it's paved with bones, but I do. I want to say it again to make it 105 00:06:59,870 --> 00:07:05,120 mean something different: the capital of heaven is the living. 106 00:07:06,710 --> 00:07:11,270 Seán Hewitt: Thank you very much. I wanted to start off by asking about 107 00:07:11,630 --> 00:07:17,300 that repetition, kind of bookending the poem with the same idea or the 108 00:07:17,300 --> 00:07:23,270 same line and making it mean something different in context or 109 00:07:23,270 --> 00:07:28,490 in intonation, and I wonder where you arrived at this idea of 110 00:07:28,790 --> 00:07:34,370 repeating, and where you sit on the idea of repeating necessarily 111 00:07:34,550 --> 00:07:35,690 meaning changing? 112 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,780 Stephen Sexton: No, thanks for asking. I mean, it's an interesting 113 00:07:38,780 --> 00:07:43,070 thing to me that this poem ends where it does, because I'm often 114 00:07:43,070 --> 00:07:47,390 suspicious of a poem that that folds in on itself at the end, that 115 00:07:47,390 --> 00:07:52,730 it seems to promise the trajectory, it seems to fairly earnestly want 116 00:07:52,730 --> 00:07:56,660 to go somewhere, and then it then it folds back again. So usually I'm 117 00:07:56,660 --> 00:08:00,800 resistant to that, that kind of an idea. And each time I repeat that 118 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,800 phrase, which I think is quite a big title, "The Capital of Heaven 119 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:07,130 is the Living"— that's a, you know, it's a big way to start a poem, one 120 00:08:07,130 --> 00:08:11,030 that I'm not necessarily sure of in some ways —but what immediately 121 00:08:11,030 --> 00:08:14,030 follows that first instance of that, is this kind of apology, 122 00:08:14,030 --> 00:08:15,920 like, you know, "I don't, I don't know where I'm going either." 123 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:19,986 And what happens at the end of the poem is this similar kind of voice: 124 00:08:20,045 --> 00:08:24,132 "Yeah, I want to do this. I'm going to do this." So I think there's a 125 00:08:24,192 --> 00:08:27,983 shyness about that repetition. I mean, really, one of the things 126 00:08:28,042 --> 00:08:31,714 we're doing with repetition is taking up someone's life. These 127 00:08:31,774 --> 00:08:35,446 lines are a second, a second and a half, two seconds of a real 128 00:08:35,506 --> 00:08:39,652 person's real life. So in the sense that the phrase might be the same, 129 00:08:39,711 --> 00:08:43,680 absolutely; I mean the context for one thing is massively different 130 00:08:43,739 --> 00:08:47,530 from one period of 30 seconds to another. So while, I guess, the 131 00:08:47,589 --> 00:08:51,380 sense of music that comes with repetition, I like the sense that 132 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,935 time is being marked between repetition. I'm hyper-aware, I 133 00:08:54,994 --> 00:08:59,200 guess, of the entire context that the shifts between those two moments. 134 00:08:59,870 --> 00:09:04,520 Seán Hewitt: Right? Yeah, because even if you repeat an idea, you're 135 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:10,070 drawing attention to the gap of time between the first instance of 136 00:09:10,310 --> 00:09:15,260 that line and the second. And, inevitably, something has changed. 137 00:09:15,350 --> 00:09:18,860 Even if it was just a gap of empty time, the reader has changed or 138 00:09:19,310 --> 00:09:24,980 something about the repetition marks a place and time, and time 139 00:09:24,980 --> 00:09:29,630 moving forward. And a lot of this poem seems to me to be about the 140 00:09:29,630 --> 00:09:33,920 future and time moving forward, and, perhaps in some ways, about 141 00:09:34,100 --> 00:09:39,890 the precarity of the future. I wonder, is that sense of futurity 142 00:09:40,130 --> 00:09:43,970 something new to emerge in your work? Or is it a more persistent 143 00:09:43,970 --> 00:09:48,500 concern for you now; you know, do ideas of spirituality inevitably 144 00:09:48,500 --> 00:09:51,110 point you into futures? 145 00:09:51,890 --> 00:09:54,560 Stephen Sexton: I think they do. I mean, I mean, I've long been into 146 00:09:54,560 --> 00:09:57,740 the future. It's been an interest of mine even since I was very 147 00:09:57,740 --> 00:10:00,830 young. I mean, what happens in this poem that hasn't happened, 148 00:10:00,860 --> 00:10:06,350 generally speaking, across my work so far —and it's not because I am 149 00:10:06,380 --> 00:10:12,830 not extremely concerned about the well-being of our planet, of the 150 00:10:12,860 --> 00:10:16,970 crises that we're all facing, in some ways —but, yeah, I mean this 151 00:10:16,970 --> 00:10:19,970 is the first instance, probably, that I can think of that something 152 00:10:19,970 --> 00:10:23,270 like an ecological concern has come through, and it's not a coincidence 153 00:10:23,270 --> 00:10:26,270 that it's coupled with a sense of futurity. 154 00:10:27,380 --> 00:10:30,710 What this poem sort of hinges on, in some ways, is, you know, seeing 155 00:10:30,710 --> 00:10:34,610 a child accidentally plant the tree, you know, by not wanting to 156 00:10:34,610 --> 00:10:36,950 eat a bit, the bit of orange that has a seed in it. You know, they 157 00:10:36,950 --> 00:10:39,590 might accidentally plant an orange tree, but that orange tree is not 158 00:10:39,590 --> 00:10:40,730 going to grow here, 159 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:41,000 Seán Hewitt: Right. 160 00:10:41,780 --> 00:10:43,940 Stephen Sexton: But one day it might. We're in this kind of 161 00:10:43,970 --> 00:10:45,560 chaotic future at that moment. 162 00:10:45,650 --> 00:10:48,680 Seán Hewitt: Yeah, and it brings back to the idea the line in your 163 00:10:48,680 --> 00:10:53,510 poem, "so much of everything is beyond intention." There is a sense 164 00:10:53,510 --> 00:10:59,210 of indeterminacy and so many moving parts in the ways that futures are 165 00:10:59,210 --> 00:11:05,600 made, either by chance or accident or on purpose. That line, "the 166 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:10,220 capital of heaven is the living" is something that might have arrived 167 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:15,710 and caused a question for you. But is that how it happened? How did 168 00:11:15,710 --> 00:11:16,520 the poem come about? 169 00:11:16,560 --> 00:11:19,154 Stephen Sexton: I can't remember for sure, but what I imagine 170 00:11:19,212 --> 00:11:23,132 happened, as far as I can remember, is that that line must have been 171 00:11:23,190 --> 00:11:26,649 accompanied by this experience, which, you know, not that it 172 00:11:26,707 --> 00:11:30,742 matters, is a fairly true thing. I mean, I was walking around the park 173 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,375 and saw some kid refusing to eat his little segment of orange, 174 00:11:34,432 --> 00:11:38,122 mostly because he didn't want to have to negotiate a seed. But I 175 00:11:38,180 --> 00:11:42,273 know that I wrote this poem, one of those ones that comes very quickly, 176 00:11:42,331 --> 00:11:46,540 in like 20 minutes while, you know, boiling water or something like that. 177 00:11:46,510 --> 00:11:50,500 But I think you're right too, to point out the kind of question, 178 00:11:50,500 --> 00:11:53,290 maybe, of that first line, because it's a big statement that, you 179 00:11:53,290 --> 00:11:55,990 know, if you're going to make it, you have to try and qualify this. 180 00:11:56,620 --> 00:12:01,090 And I suppose what's started to happen when I think about —again, 181 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:05,020 maybe not spirituality, but something closer to the Christian 182 00:12:05,020 --> 00:12:09,970 experience that I've been aware of, or some of that— is this sense of 183 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:17,050 what this afterlife is, of thinking of something like heaven, as well, 184 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:21,250 as a kind of capitalist system, in some ways. But it's, you know, 185 00:12:21,250 --> 00:12:24,130 it's increasingly baffled me, which is, "Why should the streets of 186 00:12:24,130 --> 00:12:28,090 heaven be paved with gold? Like, where do you get that gold from?" I 187 00:12:28,090 --> 00:12:32,410 mean, I know it's been perfectly well talked about, but I guess this 188 00:12:32,410 --> 00:12:36,310 sense that, you know, as a concept, the afterlife works with a certain 189 00:12:36,310 --> 00:12:40,120 kind of scarcity. It has a supply-and- demand model in some 190 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:46,720 ways. Where is it peopled? Where is it resourced? It's the living, and 191 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,180 I think it takes the poem, then, to try and work through what that 192 00:12:49,180 --> 00:12:54,370 thought is and to try and rationalize what ... I mean in 193 00:12:54,370 --> 00:12:56,740 some ways, it's kind of a provocative opening line, but, I 194 00:12:56,740 --> 00:13:01,840 mean, one of those odd moments of 20 minutes' work where you look up 195 00:13:02,050 --> 00:13:02,890 and something's there. 196 00:13:03,100 --> 00:13:05,320 Seán Hewitt: And it's done, and there's a poem, the page is 197 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:11,920 printed. I wondered about the—I'm not sure "addressee" is the right 198 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:17,110 word of this poem—but the source of power that might allow these things 199 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:22,750 to be possible is in this poem. Do you imagine an addressee? Is it the 200 00:13:22,750 --> 00:13:23,170 reader? 201 00:13:24,020 --> 00:13:26,780 Stephen Sexton: It's a good question. I suppose when I think of 202 00:13:26,900 --> 00:13:29,810 an addressee, I do, I think, I think of something slightly more 203 00:13:29,810 --> 00:13:35,480 dramatic. I mean, if there's this risk of an inevitability, if I may 204 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:40,460 say it, I'm I'm talking to whoever will listen, is one thing, but also 205 00:13:40,460 --> 00:13:44,120 I'm talking to the people I know and like and love, you know, 206 00:13:44,450 --> 00:13:46,790 talking to my friends. So I feel as though there aren't enough poems 207 00:13:46,790 --> 00:13:49,550 that people write to their friends. And while it's no one in 208 00:13:49,550 --> 00:13:53,300 particular, there is this sense of, "Yeah, I want to say this." 209 00:13:53,990 --> 00:13:57,440 Seán Hewitt: Do you think that's a kind of growing sense, though, as 210 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:04,220 you have written more poems, or perhaps, you know, have a firmer 211 00:14:04,220 --> 00:14:10,640 bedrock in in your own poems, that you you feel, know sort of worth in 212 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,480 taking a risk. Or, "you know what? I'm just gonna say it like I want 213 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,830 Stephen Sexton: I'm aware of the risk, certainly, as I've suggested, 214 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:14,840 to say." 215 00:14:18,830 --> 00:14:21,560 some instances where the speaker of this poem quite shy about the 216 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:23,960 things they're saying. They keep kind of undercutting themselves in 217 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:28,340 some ways. But I find it, I find it easier to be plain in some ways. I 218 00:14:28,340 --> 00:14:32,600 mean, I'm still kind of looking— as many of us are, I think— for that 219 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:39,290 desirable, lucid, clean lyric sort of voice, which is technically not 220 00:14:39,290 --> 00:14:42,530 something most people can do to start with, and it may be the case 221 00:14:42,530 --> 00:14:46,400 that one never actually gets there. But I'm interested in this kind of 222 00:14:46,490 --> 00:14:52,040 plain voice that can say hopefully not too unreasonable things, and to 223 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:57,110 offer something at least in some way interesting or compelling or 224 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:03,210 Seán Hewitt: Yeah, well, I mean, this poem certainly does that. You 225 00:14:57,110 --> 00:14:57,740 thoughtful. 226 00:15:03,210 --> 00:15:07,500 have chosen a very interesting second poem. Before we get to it, 227 00:15:07,500 --> 00:15:12,390 I just want to talk to you a little bit about American poetry. It seems 228 00:15:12,390 --> 00:15:17,940 that you know, you mention American poets relatively often in in 229 00:15:17,940 --> 00:15:23,700 relation to your own work. And why do you think you kind of gravitate 230 00:15:23,700 --> 00:15:28,140 towards the poets that you do? Because they don't seem to me that 231 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,990 they would be poets that maybe would be handed out to you at 232 00:15:31,230 --> 00:15:34,590 university or that you'd find so easily in a library. 233 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:39,670 Stephen Sexton: I think on some level, it's it's an interest in the 234 00:15:39,700 --> 00:15:44,890 language that I know and like best, which is English, and it's an 235 00:15:44,890 --> 00:15:49,480 English that is just different enough. I mean, the fact that I 236 00:15:49,510 --> 00:15:53,620 live in Northern Ireland, and have, means that, you know, Ireland and 237 00:15:53,620 --> 00:15:57,460 the United Kingdom, they are very familiar Englishes to me. I mean, 238 00:15:57,460 --> 00:16:02,740 the English of Britain is not that interesting or different, because 239 00:16:02,740 --> 00:16:07,390 it's basically my English too. So there's, there's something about 240 00:16:07,420 --> 00:16:11,260 the American English— and American poetry more generally— but there's 241 00:16:11,260 --> 00:16:14,080 something about that English on the first instance that feels kind of 242 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:18,460 foreign and feels exotic and feels different. Yeah, so that's always a 243 00:16:18,460 --> 00:16:21,310 very interesting thing to me, and I find myself looking in that 244 00:16:21,310 --> 00:16:24,700 direction, well, because there's, there's a huge amount of it, 245 00:16:24,730 --> 00:16:27,940 there's a huge amount of incredibly interesting writing, but has always 246 00:16:27,940 --> 00:16:32,320 been the case, and I do find myself hunting it in some ways. I mean, I 247 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:36,190 kind of love the thrill of finding a collection I haven't found before 248 00:16:36,220 --> 00:16:40,090 in a bookshop. But I'm always, I'm always looking, I guess, for, for 249 00:16:40,090 --> 00:16:43,360 this kind of thrilling example of poetry that seems to chime with me 250 00:16:43,390 --> 00:16:45,520 and with my intellect and with my instincts. 251 00:16:45,790 --> 00:16:49,510 Seán Hewitt: Yeah, it's amazing. The disconnect sometimes that we 252 00:16:49,510 --> 00:16:55,720 have with the U.S. poetry world, the amount of big, influential 253 00:16:56,230 --> 00:17:01,420 American poets that there are that we don't seem to get much access 254 00:17:01,450 --> 00:17:07,660 to. I'm fascinated by the way that you hunt down poets. You know, do 255 00:17:07,660 --> 00:17:13,060 you read a lot online? Do you subscribe to U.S. magazines? How do 256 00:17:13,060 --> 00:17:14,050 you go about finding them? 257 00:17:15,260 --> 00:17:19,730 Stephen Sexton: I did used to subscribe to to a couple, Poetry 258 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,700 magazine being the main one, but largely through recommendations, I 259 00:17:22,700 --> 00:17:27,320 guess. I mean, it's one of the great advantages of having a job 260 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,530 like I do, which is teaching creative writing. You have 261 00:17:30,530 --> 00:17:33,620 colleagues and students and visitors and all kinds of people 262 00:17:33,650 --> 00:17:36,020 who are saying, "Hey, did you read this?" Or "Did you see this?" And 263 00:17:36,230 --> 00:17:38,930 you know, it's a great pleasure, I think, to be able to do that for 264 00:17:38,930 --> 00:17:41,780 other people, especially for students. I mean, to kind of shock 265 00:17:41,780 --> 00:17:46,250 them into something, shock them with something you love, is a is a 266 00:17:46,250 --> 00:17:47,810 really nice privilege to have. 267 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:48,230 Seán Hewitt: Yeah, well, there's no better thing for a writer than to 268 00:17:48,230 --> 00:17:49,460 be shocked out of, or shocked in recognition of of some amazing 269 00:17:49,460 --> 00:17:51,080 thing that you kind of feel that you should have known about all 270 00:17:51,080 --> 00:18:02,690 along. We're going to take a quick break, but afterwards, you're going 271 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,570 to introduce me to another U.S. poet, I think, 272 00:18:08,750 --> 00:18:09,170 Stephen Sexton: Yes, 273 00:18:09,500 --> 00:18:14,840 Seán Hewitt: Who I hadn't heard of before. And this one's at least 274 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:19,160 nominally about a yak. So thank you. We'll take a little break. 275 00:18:29,570 --> 00:18:31,910 Cathy & Peter Halstead: We hope you're enjoying this second season 276 00:18:31,910 --> 00:18:36,290 of The Glimpse. It's just one small part of the Adrian Brinkerhoff 277 00:18:36,290 --> 00:18:41,120 Poetry Foundation. We're the founders Peter and Cathy Halstead. 278 00:18:41,570 --> 00:18:46,760 Our goal is to make great poetry more accessible to everyone, and we 279 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:51,470 do that in a variety of ways: through partnerships, our film 280 00:18:51,470 --> 00:18:58,040 series, this podcast, and our website, brinkerhoffpoetry.org. We 281 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:02,600 hope these works will lure you into a parallel universe, the way a 282 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:07,010 Möbius strip brings you into another dimension without leaving 283 00:19:07,010 --> 00:19:10,070 the page you're on. Thank you so much for listening. 284 00:19:12,100 --> 00:19:16,060 Seán Hewitt: Stephen Sexton, welcome back to The Glimpse. So, 285 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:20,860 before the break, you were telling us about how you go about finding 286 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:26,170 American poets and what they mean to you in your work. And you have 287 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:31,660 chosen here a poem by the poet Oni Buchanan, and it's called "The Only 288 00:19:31,660 --> 00:19:36,040 Yak in Batesville, Virginia." Can you tell us a little bit about how 289 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,880 you found it, or when you found it, and why you've chosen it? 290 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:44,400 Stephen Sexton: I can. So I came across this poem, I think, about 10 291 00:19:44,430 --> 00:19:48,120 years ago, at this point, in an anthology called Legitimate 292 00:19:48,120 --> 00:19:52,320 Dangers, which is a big, hefty book of American poetry. It was in a 293 00:19:52,380 --> 00:19:55,560 sort of Fulbright class. We had a Fulbright Scholar taking a creative 294 00:19:55,560 --> 00:20:00,030 writing class, and this was one of the poems in that. We're going to 295 00:20:00,030 --> 00:20:02,550 talk about this poem, and I'm very excited to do so. I mean, this is 296 00:20:02,550 --> 00:20:07,020 one of the ones that I was talking about that I love sharing with 297 00:20:07,020 --> 00:20:11,730 people. But I want to also offer the disclaimer that I don't really 298 00:20:11,730 --> 00:20:15,000 know what's happening in this poem. That has not in any way diminished 299 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:19,140 how much I love it, but every time I read it, it's really one of those 300 00:20:19,140 --> 00:20:23,790 rare things that I get pretty much the same feeling now as I, as I did 301 00:20:23,790 --> 00:20:27,270 the first time I read it. You know, it activates something in me that 302 00:20:27,300 --> 00:20:31,470 many things don't, and very special things do, which is, "I know what 303 00:20:31,470 --> 00:20:35,370 this feels like. I'm not sure I know what it means," And that's a 304 00:20:35,370 --> 00:20:39,480 really important feeling for me. I'm much more of the senses than I 305 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:40,410 am of the intellect. 306 00:20:40,770 --> 00:20:41,880 Seán Hewitt: Would you read it for us? 307 00:20:43,860 --> 00:20:46,500 Stephen Sexton: The Only Yak in Batesville, Virginia 308 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:53,200 At first I spent hours gazing at the black and white horse in the 309 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:58,540 farthest pasture. He was so far away, so tiny between the fence 310 00:20:58,540 --> 00:21:03,760 slats, and even then I knew all he cared about was his mane and that 311 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:08,440 his tail was properly braided. He never so much as galloped in my 312 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:13,780 direction. Even the flies that edged his beautiful eyes never flew 313 00:21:13,780 --> 00:21:19,840 into my wool or landed on my nose. The love affair was over before it 314 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:26,260 began. I started to dream of a dry cistern in the middle of the forest 315 00:21:26,770 --> 00:21:30,760 and dry leaves where the other yaks could play until leaves stuck out 316 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:36,160 of their hair and they looked like shrubs. In my dream they lived in 317 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,970 the cistern and each morning looked out with periscopes before 318 00:21:39,970 --> 00:21:43,990 scrambling up the concrete walls to search in the forest for sprouting 319 00:21:43,990 --> 00:21:50,500 trees. In winter I realized that for the other yaks it was fall all 320 00:21:50,500 --> 00:21:54,490 year round, and that it had to be fall, because otherwise they 321 00:21:54,490 --> 00:21:58,570 couldn't roll in the leaves to look like shrubs, and there had to be a 322 00:21:58,570 --> 00:22:02,440 cistern because otherwise they couldn't huddle in the pitch black, 323 00:22:03,310 --> 00:22:06,880 and I knew then that I had forgotten what a yak looks like, 324 00:22:07,540 --> 00:22:12,220 though I am a yak, and I knew then that I had been away for a long 325 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,690 Seán Hewitt: It's such a good poem, and in some way very difficult to 326 00:22:12,220 --> 00:22:12,790 time. 327 00:22:15,690 --> 00:22:18,600 articulate what's so good about it, because it's hard to pinpoint 328 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:29,910 exactly what I think it's about. I know you said you hadn't settled on 329 00:22:29,910 --> 00:22:33,330 a firm idea of it, but what were some of the ideas that have gone 330 00:22:33,330 --> 00:22:34,620 through your head about it? 331 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:38,050 Stephen Sexton: Yeah, I mean, I think there's maybe a couple that 332 00:22:38,050 --> 00:22:42,850 lend themselves more obviously than others. I mean, one is a kind of 333 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:48,040 romantic relationship that, an unrequited one, is fairly you know, 334 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,670 obviously what's happening in the first stanza between a yak and a 335 00:22:51,670 --> 00:22:55,270 horse. I don't know if yaks and horses frequently have affection 336 00:22:55,270 --> 00:22:58,600 for each other. I don't know, but that seems to be what's happening 337 00:22:59,170 --> 00:23:02,110 in the first instance. And then, and then what follows, I mean, my 338 00:23:02,110 --> 00:23:06,070 instinct is, you know, is to think of something that also means a lot 339 00:23:06,070 --> 00:23:09,790 to me is, you know, the Marianne Moore phrase about "imaginary 340 00:23:09,850 --> 00:23:14,200 gardens with real toads in them," which I guess take to mean that 341 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:18,370 sense that you carry that real feeling, that real punctum, or 342 00:23:18,370 --> 00:23:21,430 whatever it is, that kind of moves you, and you put it somewhere else 343 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:22,810 into an imaginary space. 344 00:23:22,990 --> 00:23:26,830 So I'm inclined to think, think of this as a fairly confessional poem, 345 00:23:26,860 --> 00:23:31,750 let's say, where the speaker or the author maybe, has decided to 346 00:23:31,750 --> 00:23:35,710 articulate this, this sort of love affair through a yak and a horse. 347 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,250 And that's kind of unkind, because it says quite frequently that this 348 00:23:39,250 --> 00:23:44,350 is about a yak, and I think it does the poem a disservice to demand 349 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,970 that we treat it for its human concerns. So I think there's that, 350 00:23:49,180 --> 00:23:52,270 but really, where I think what is so strange about the poem is we 351 00:23:52,270 --> 00:23:55,810 have a fairly concrete premise. You know, it's fairly well set. The 352 00:23:55,810 --> 00:23:58,630 images are very clear, and, you know, kind of there's even a little 353 00:23:58,630 --> 00:24:03,430 close up. I think it feels filmic in some ways to me. But so much of 354 00:24:03,430 --> 00:24:06,790 the poem is a kind of dream sequence, a kind of dream logic. I 355 00:24:06,790 --> 00:24:10,150 mean, it starts, you know, about a third in, and pretty much carries 356 00:24:10,180 --> 00:24:13,810 most of the way through. And I don't know what is happening. I 357 00:24:13,810 --> 00:24:14,860 know what it feels like. 358 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,970 Seán Hewitt: Yeah, the dream sequence is a very strange one, in 359 00:24:19,970 --> 00:24:25,160 a way. I found myself for a while googling cisterns and various 360 00:24:25,850 --> 00:24:31,100 images of cisterns, and they're really beautiful, kind of Moroccan 361 00:24:31,340 --> 00:24:36,320 cisterns, and there are more functional concrete systems. But 362 00:24:36,980 --> 00:24:40,760 all the while, in my head, I suppose, I was wondering, "Why are 363 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:45,440 they in a cistern?" You know, "Where does this aspect of of the 364 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:51,110 dream come from?" And I suppose in some ways, it might be a poem that 365 00:24:51,110 --> 00:24:56,870 seems to me about a desire to provoke a search for meaning in 366 00:24:56,870 --> 00:25:01,910 symbols or ideas, because these things become important to the 367 00:25:01,910 --> 00:25:08,450 poem, and so we try to define some sort of logical importance for them 368 00:25:08,930 --> 00:25:12,140 in a way that we might try and read a dream, you know, we might try and 369 00:25:12,230 --> 00:25:17,450 put logic on it. And often, you know, when dreams are recounted, 370 00:25:17,450 --> 00:25:21,560 they're relatively boring to people that weren't inside the dream or 371 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,610 that, or they seem kind of illogical and pointless sometimes. 372 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:29,740 But in this poem there's, there's definitely a sense of resonance 373 00:25:29,740 --> 00:25:34,990 that it might be gesturing towards something. To me, it seemed to be a 374 00:25:34,990 --> 00:25:41,080 poem about community or affinity with people who you may feel you 375 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,730 have left behind and not recognizing yourself anymore, that 376 00:25:46,150 --> 00:25:53,770 I perhaps read it in a in a more melancholy way, that it seems to be 377 00:25:54,940 --> 00:25:58,990 not being able to recognize yourself, even if you could see 378 00:25:58,990 --> 00:26:03,190 yourself. There's something quite unsettling about forgetting what 379 00:26:03,310 --> 00:26:05,110 one looks like. 380 00:26:06,410 --> 00:26:09,770 Stephen Sexton: I feel that alienation completely in it. I 381 00:26:09,770 --> 00:26:12,650 mean, that seems in some ways to be, maybe not the ultimate, but one 382 00:26:12,650 --> 00:26:16,940 of, one of the ultimate kinds of of alienation is, you know, to be not 383 00:26:16,940 --> 00:26:21,080 the horse certainly, but now no longer the yak either. I mean, the 384 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:25,310 other way of reading it as a possibility, I think, is one about 385 00:26:25,340 --> 00:26:29,780 emigration or immigration is one. I mean, I don't think we would 386 00:26:29,780 --> 00:26:33,410 consider the yak to be native to Batesville, Virginia, but there's 387 00:26:33,410 --> 00:26:37,370 something quite specific about the poem naming this place. There's a 388 00:26:37,370 --> 00:26:40,370 sense of forgetting what one is. I mean, this is a creature. Suddenly 389 00:26:40,370 --> 00:26:42,530 at the end of this poem, it's between two, at least two sets of 390 00:26:42,530 --> 00:26:45,620 identities. And there's something about this, this kind of act of 391 00:26:45,620 --> 00:26:50,210 longing that has in some ways been responsible for this disintegration 392 00:26:50,210 --> 00:26:54,920 of self, maybe? That the object has been sought so long that the 393 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,370 subject has been effaced in some way by that longing. Which I think 394 00:26:58,370 --> 00:27:02,210 is quite a human feeling and I think most of us could go some of 395 00:27:02,210 --> 00:27:04,100 the way to understanding that feeling. 396 00:27:04,660 --> 00:27:06,670 Seán Hewitt: There's something about the way time moves in this 397 00:27:06,670 --> 00:27:10,570 poem that's interesting as well. You know, we begin "At first I 398 00:27:10,570 --> 00:27:14,230 spent hours gazing at the black and white horse in the farthest 399 00:27:14,230 --> 00:27:19,570 pasture." And then we start this dream, which moves through the 400 00:27:19,570 --> 00:27:24,220 seasons "In winter, I realized for the other yaks it was fall all year 401 00:27:24,220 --> 00:27:30,580 round, and it had to be fall." And then the dream takes us so far that 402 00:27:30,820 --> 00:27:35,050 by the time we get to the end, either we've been inside the dream 403 00:27:35,050 --> 00:27:41,320 for a very long time, or the yak has been away for so long that that 404 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:46,630 everything is distant from them. Do you know what I mean? It seems to 405 00:27:46,630 --> 00:27:50,020 be kind of a weird braiding of time happening in this poem. 406 00:27:50,050 --> 00:27:50,650 Stephen Sexton: No, I agree. 407 00:27:50,650 --> 00:27:54,970 Seán Hewitt: Yeah. So, so much so that when we get to the end, we 408 00:27:54,970 --> 00:27:58,120 almost feel like we've been away for a very long time. 409 00:27:59,650 --> 00:28:01,960 Stephen Sexton: Certainly from the initial premise, maybe, of the 410 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:06,010 poem, it feels, yeah, that you were offered. You might think, as a 411 00:28:06,010 --> 00:28:10,450 reader, a fairly straightforward kind of poem, but it does not go 412 00:28:10,450 --> 00:28:14,410 there. "In winter I realized that for the other yaks, it was fall all 413 00:28:14,410 --> 00:28:17,860 year round, and that it had to be fall." That's the bit where my my 414 00:28:17,860 --> 00:28:22,090 senses can't really follow it, but I start to feel what's happening, 415 00:28:22,420 --> 00:28:26,050 and certainly the reputations towards the end of "yak" —I mean, 416 00:28:26,050 --> 00:28:29,650 one of the great pleasures of teaching this poem in a class, or 417 00:28:29,650 --> 00:28:32,650 having students look at it, is that you automatically gain the world 418 00:28:32,650 --> 00:28:35,770 record in 30 minutes for the number of times the word yak has been 419 00:28:36,250 --> 00:28:40,510 mentioned. And we might be going there ourselves at this moment. 420 00:28:41,290 --> 00:28:44,470 Seán Hewitt: I wonder, you know we were speaking before, with regards 421 00:28:44,470 --> 00:28:49,030 to you and your poetry, about hopefully not knowing where you're 422 00:28:49,030 --> 00:28:53,290 going. Have you found anything about this poem seeping through 423 00:28:53,290 --> 00:28:54,250 into your own work? 424 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,020 Stephen Sexton: Almost certainly. I don't know if I can pinpoint it 425 00:28:58,050 --> 00:29:01,620 necessarily, but I think there's something about the manner. I mean, 426 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,280 there's, I mean, there's kind of a strange formal sense to this poem. 427 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,330 I mean, it's well managed in terms of lines and stanzas. I mean, it's 428 00:29:09,330 --> 00:29:12,450 in, three eight-line stanzas. So there's, there is a logic: there's 429 00:29:12,450 --> 00:29:15,570 a formal logic that's working here. I think there's a sense of how the 430 00:29:15,570 --> 00:29:17,940 syntax works. It's this really wonderful—I mean, I think— "The 431 00:29:17,970 --> 00:29:21,810 love affair was over before it began," with this huge break in it, 432 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,530 you know, it's funny. I think there's such a sense of voice 433 00:29:25,530 --> 00:29:29,310 that's coming through, I can almost see someone rolling their eyes, or 434 00:29:29,310 --> 00:29:33,000 a speaker rolling their eyes. "The love affair was over before it 435 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:33,450 began." 436 00:29:33,810 --> 00:29:37,170 So I think there's incredible things that are happening where the 437 00:29:37,170 --> 00:29:41,730 lines turn that entice me in some ways, and it's interesting, I 438 00:29:41,730 --> 00:29:46,200 think, for many of us looking at a poem like this, especially with 439 00:29:47,100 --> 00:29:50,970 training, or maybe an outsized influence from British and Irish 440 00:29:50,970 --> 00:29:54,900 poetry as it's maybe typically known. Well these are kind of— I 441 00:29:54,900 --> 00:29:58,050 don't know if you agree—but they sometimes seem like quite radical 442 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,560 line breaks and radical ideas. And I mean, it's one of the things that 443 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:08,610 I want to avoid in my own work, is is getting too stuck to your fairly 444 00:30:08,610 --> 00:30:11,250 traditional sense of how lines should work. And this is just a 445 00:30:11,250 --> 00:30:15,120 different kind of formal logic, you know. It's its duty is to itself, 446 00:30:15,390 --> 00:30:19,020 to following its own patterns. And that's kind of an inspirational 447 00:30:19,020 --> 00:30:20,190 idea in some ways. 448 00:30:20,450 --> 00:30:23,660 Seán Hewitt: Yeah. And it kind of, you know, comes back to the idea of 449 00:30:24,380 --> 00:30:28,520 being able to feel a sense of language without necessarily 450 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:34,280 pinning language down to a strict meaning, even even in the mind of 451 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,450 the poet, you know, to be able to say "the capital of heaven is the 452 00:30:38,450 --> 00:30:42,740 living," and have a sense of, of all the things that that might mean 453 00:30:42,740 --> 00:30:46,370 by the time you get to the end of the poem, but not to have nailed 454 00:30:46,370 --> 00:30:50,990 down one specific version that, that kind of puts the poem in a 455 00:30:50,990 --> 00:30:56,330 straight jacket. And I think that that sort of sense of how to 456 00:30:56,330 --> 00:31:01,760 interact with knowing and unknowing within your own poem and to leave a 457 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:06,050 space for unknowing is something that is common between this poem 458 00:31:06,050 --> 00:31:08,600 here and the poem you read for us at the start. 459 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,450 Stephen Sexton: I think in every instance of something that I'm 460 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,760 writing, I mean, part of the ambition is that there is a 461 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,210 connection with someone else. And one of the ways of doing that is, 462 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,180 first of all, making sure you leave a space for them. But I mean, 463 00:31:20,180 --> 00:31:23,360 people might also suggest that, I mean a function, a basic function 464 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,560 of metaphor or of simile, is to provoke the sense that that a 465 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,890 reader is involved in this. I mean, one of the things that simile or 466 00:31:30,890 --> 00:31:34,700 metaphor does is it sort of says, like, "Do you believe me? Like, are 467 00:31:34,700 --> 00:31:38,210 you with me? Like, do you buy this comparison?" And I think that very 468 00:31:38,210 --> 00:31:41,810 basic gesture says, like, "I hope you're there. I want you to be 469 00:31:41,810 --> 00:31:45,050 involved in making meaning out of this." So I'm always hyper 470 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,710 conscious of that in in the sense that I want other people to be 471 00:31:48,710 --> 00:31:53,720 involved. The risk, of course, is that you leave a gap so big that it 472 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,540 is meaningless, and that's that's maybe part of the, part of the 473 00:31:56,540 --> 00:32:01,430 craft is leaving a space exactly the right size for the reader. 474 00:32:02,150 --> 00:32:04,310 Seán Hewitt: Speaking of which, what are you working on at the 475 00:32:04,310 --> 00:32:04,670 moment? 476 00:32:05,830 --> 00:32:09,280 Stephen Sexton: Well, I'm trying to, trying to write more poems is 477 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:14,050 the, is the short answer. The poem that we looked at, I think, in some 478 00:32:14,050 --> 00:32:17,560 ways, is kind of emblematic of my my thinking recently, in some ways, 479 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:23,470 is yeah, is thinking of these kind of two concepts. But I'm dismayed, 480 00:32:23,470 --> 00:32:27,910 I suppose, by any system that, that says that the end justifies the 481 00:32:27,910 --> 00:32:32,560 means, or that it'll all be, it'll all be okay, whatever it costs, or 482 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:37,690 that we believe in one sense of the future and not others. And I 483 00:32:37,690 --> 00:32:41,410 suppose I've been troubled by that problem in lots of ways, of the 484 00:32:41,410 --> 00:32:44,140 sense of the end justifying the means, which is, how you end up, 485 00:32:44,170 --> 00:32:47,440 you know, walking streets paved with gold. I think you you should 486 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,980 ask how the gold got there. Seems like a reasonable place to start 487 00:32:50,980 --> 00:32:51,220 with. 488 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,150 Seán Hewitt: Stephen Sexton, I cannot wait to read the new 489 00:32:55,150 --> 00:32:59,590 collection when all of these poems come to coalesce. And of course, 490 00:32:59,890 --> 00:33:03,940 there's no rush with any of that. And we will happily sit in the 491 00:33:03,940 --> 00:33:09,670 place of unknowing until, until we get there. Thank you very much for 492 00:33:09,700 --> 00:33:11,080 for joining us on The Glimpse. 493 00:33:11,500 --> 00:33:12,550 Stephen Sexton: Thank you, Seán, my pleasure. 494 00:33:18,220 --> 00:33:21,430 Seán Hewitt: Thanks for joining us today. I'm your host, Seán Hewitt. 495 00:33:21,980 --> 00:33:26,301 Stephen's poem, "The Capital of Heaven" was first published in The 496 00:33:26,366 --> 00:33:30,557 Stinging Fly and aired with his permission. Oni Buchanan's poem, 497 00:33:30,622 --> 00:33:34,485 "The Only Yak in Batesville, Virginia" was from What Animal 498 00:33:34,551 --> 00:33:38,610 published in 2003 and aired with permission from University of 499 00:33:38,676 --> 00:33:43,128 Georgia Press. Coming up next week, poet Parker Hibbett talks about 500 00:33:43,194 --> 00:33:47,253 their relationship to rhythm and poetry, the lyric eye and the 501 00:33:47,319 --> 00:33:50,200 impact of Joni Mitchell's artistic betrayal. 502 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,972 Make sure to subscribe to The Glimpse wherever you get your 503 00:33:54,036 --> 00:33:57,297 podcasts. You can also find episodes on our website 504 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:01,900 brinkerhoffpoetry.org/podcast. We'd also love to hear from you; drop us 505 00:34:01,964 --> 00:34:05,736 an email at the glimpse poetrypodcast@gmail.com The Glimpse 506 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,892 is a production of the Adrian Brinkerhoff Poetry Foundation. I'm 507 00:34:09,956 --> 00:34:14,240 your host, Seán Hewitt. Our Senior Producer is Jennifer Wolfe. Kat 508 00:34:14,304 --> 00:34:18,204 Yore is our Technical Director and Mixing Engineer. Editorial 509 00:34:18,268 --> 00:34:22,616 Director Amanda Glassman is our curator and production coordinator. 510 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,388 Amy Holmes is the foundation's Executive Director, and our 511 00:34:26,452 --> 00:34:30,800 co-founders are Cathy and Peter Halstead. Thanks for listening.