1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,720 Seán Hewitt: The Glimpse 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,280 Míchéal McCann: It's like I have a sunny disposition. I think being 3 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:13,290 amongst human beings is the greatest gift we have. But it's not 4 00:00:13,290 --> 00:00:16,860 like I wake up, wake up in bed with my cats, and I throw open the 5 00:00:16,860 --> 00:00:20,610 curtains. Do you know what I mean? You have to, like work hard to see 6 00:00:20,610 --> 00:00:22,710 the world in that way, and it's not deluded. 7 00:00:24,490 --> 00:00:27,460 Seán Hewitt: Welcome to The Glimpse, I'm your host Seán Hewitt. 8 00:00:28,270 --> 00:00:31,840 Mícheál McCann is the author of three pamphlets of poems, the most 9 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,830 recent Keeper. His first collection, Devotion was published 10 00:00:35,830 --> 00:00:39,910 in 2024 and he's the 2024 Publishing Fellow at the Seamus 11 00:00:39,910 --> 00:00:43,660 Heaney Center at Queen's University Belfast. Originally from Derry 12 00:00:43,660 --> 00:00:48,220 City, Mícheál now lives and works in Belfast and is our guest today 13 00:00:48,460 --> 00:00:49,330 on The Glimpse. 14 00:00:49,300 --> 00:00:58,930 Mícheál McCann's debut collection Devotion is many things, an 15 00:00:58,930 --> 00:01:02,890 inhabitation of Irish literature, an account of queer life, an 16 00:01:02,890 --> 00:01:06,700 exploration of love and relationships, and a light filled 17 00:01:06,700 --> 00:01:12,460 and tender look at domesticity. In one time bending sequence, McCann 18 00:01:12,460 --> 00:01:17,590 reinhabits the Irish lament, originally composed by Eibhlín Dubh 19 00:01:17,590 --> 00:01:22,210 Ní Chonaill, creating a heartfelt and grief-filled reimagining, which 20 00:01:22,210 --> 00:01:25,810 places a queer love story right at the heart of the Irish tradition. 21 00:01:26,320 --> 00:01:30,760 His poems are unusually open and welcoming and I think, full of a 22 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,840 sense of gratitude for the small moments in life that can act as a 23 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:39,670 solace in an increasingly fraught world. Mícheál McCann, welcome to 24 00:01:39,670 --> 00:01:41,440 The Glimpse. It's so good to have you here. 25 00:01:42,130 --> 00:01:44,260 Míchéal McCann: Thanks, Seán you've said nice things. I appreciate it. 26 00:01:45,070 --> 00:01:47,230 Seán Hewitt: You're very welcome. Where are you speaking to us from? 27 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,160 Míchéal McCann: So from the Seamus Heaney Center, actually. I borrowed 28 00:01:51,190 --> 00:01:54,940 down here from work up in the mountains in West Belfast. And it's 29 00:01:54,940 --> 00:01:59,170 very foggy. You can't see 50 feet in front of you. It's a very sort 30 00:01:59,170 --> 00:02:02,080 of, this is my type of winter evening, not particularly festive. 31 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,840 Seán Hewitt: Okay, that's very different weather in Belfast 32 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:02,620 than what 33 00:02:05,930 --> 00:02:10,220 we have here, which is unusually clear for Dublin. As I 34 00:02:10,220 --> 00:02:14,600 mentioned in the intro that this year your debut collection Devotion 35 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,720 came out. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about how the 36 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,660 past year since the launch of the book has been for you? 37 00:02:21,050 --> 00:02:24,200 Míchéal McCann: How's it been? So wonderful, you know, it's one of 38 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:28,160 those things where it's wonderful because your thinking about 39 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:31,160 publishing changes entirely when you're fortunate enough to publish 40 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:35,540 a book. You know, you strive for so long. I mean, we met when you just 41 00:02:35,540 --> 00:02:38,240 put out Lantern, I remember, and I was trying to put out pamphlets and 42 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,480 stuff. And I think you have this idea of, like a quest, you know, 43 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,560 when I reach the collection stage, you know, but you're still as 44 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:49,160 unsure of yourself, and plodding along, and you're just sort of 45 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,580 doing the same things, but in the way you are at that stage. So it's 46 00:02:52,580 --> 00:02:56,750 great. It sort of, it's humbling, you know, it's been really good for 47 00:02:56,750 --> 00:03:00,830 that reason, you know. And I feel very lucky, like it's been held so 48 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:03,860 conscientiously by Gallery. You know, they've done a really 49 00:03:03,860 --> 00:03:07,010 beautiful job with it, especially with the lamenting stuff, so. 50 00:03:07,450 --> 00:03:09,250 Seán Hewitt: How long were you working on the book? 51 00:03:09,630 --> 00:03:13,620 Míchéal McCann: Probably the guts of about two years, probably. A lot 52 00:03:13,620 --> 00:03:18,450 of the poems were written from about 2021, onwards. The lament, in 53 00:03:18,450 --> 00:03:21,720 and of itself, was about six months where I feel like I blacked out and 54 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:26,250 came to and then just had this, like 35 page long poem that sort of 55 00:03:26,550 --> 00:03:29,970 still mystifies me a little bit. And then other poems just come in 56 00:03:29,970 --> 00:03:35,340 that sort of organic way that you know yourself. I don't know it's 57 00:03:35,430 --> 00:03:38,850 such a thrill, isn't it? You know, I remember talking to people 58 00:03:38,850 --> 00:03:41,610 who think that a book's organic. Do you know what I mean? I just think 59 00:03:41,610 --> 00:03:43,020 it's not a mechanical process. 60 00:03:43,810 --> 00:03:45,940 Seán Hewitt: Did it change along the way a lot? The book? 61 00:03:47,250 --> 00:03:49,260 Míchéal McCann: In the way that I suppose I worked with Leontia Flynn 62 00:03:49,260 --> 00:03:54,240 on my PhD, and I don't think the poems changed, but maybe my eye for 63 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:56,520 how poems should look changed. Do you know? 64 00:03:56,910 --> 00:04:01,920 Seán Hewitt: Yeah. I mean, it's sort of evolution, maybe, but not 65 00:04:02,190 --> 00:04:06,270 necessarily always in a linear direction. I think it's like a 66 00:04:06,900 --> 00:04:12,750 folding inwards of inspiration and different sorts of language. The 67 00:04:12,750 --> 00:04:18,840 title in your book is "Keen for A--" and Irish readers would know 68 00:04:19,500 --> 00:04:25,380 that poem from school, I guess the "Keen for Art O'Leary." Would you 69 00:04:25,530 --> 00:04:29,670 tell listeners a little bit about that poem, some of them may be 70 00:04:29,670 --> 00:04:32,430 unfamiliar with it and and what drew you to it? 71 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:36,290 Míchéal McCann: Yeah, so the "Keen for Art O'Leary" was, it was never 72 00:04:36,290 --> 00:04:41,030 written down. It was uttered by Eibhlín Dubh Ní Chonaill about 251, 73 00:04:41,060 --> 00:04:43,880 years ago, actually, last year, it was his 250th anniversary, 74 00:04:43,910 --> 00:04:52,730 obviously. So she's a noble woman of sorts. Her husband, Art O'Leary, 75 00:04:52,730 --> 00:04:58,970 was killed by British forces in Cork at that time. And, you know, 76 00:04:58,970 --> 00:05:02,120 keening was a sort of profession, you know, professional wailing 77 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,540 women. But actually, prior to that period, even men would have done it 78 00:05:05,540 --> 00:05:10,250 as well. But this woman uttered this keen so extraordinary, so sort 79 00:05:10,250 --> 00:05:14,810 of full of anger and this frightening desire for her husband. 80 00:05:14,810 --> 00:05:19,280 You know, that people were like so stunned that these other keeners 81 00:05:19,670 --> 00:05:22,670 took register and noted down the poem. 82 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:26,740 And it's sort of long and frightening, really frightening. 83 00:05:26,740 --> 00:05:30,340 And the thing that grabbed me, I remember reading it for the first 84 00:05:30,340 --> 00:05:34,390 time, and there's a scene where she comes across his corpse in this 85 00:05:34,390 --> 00:05:38,800 sort of like little hilly patch, and, you know, an old woman has, 86 00:05:39,070 --> 00:05:45,430 she thinks, thrown like a robe over his dead, bloody body. And Eibhlín 87 00:05:45,430 --> 00:05:50,440 Dubh Ní Chonaill sticks her hands into the wounds and lifts the blood 88 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,770 and drinks it and drinks it. And, you know, as a gay person, 89 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,440 blood is very burdened in a different way, you know. So I 90 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:01,240 suppose that was what started to set my mind going like in I guess 91 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,200 there's two ways to think about the past and literary canons and stuff 92 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,750 that exclude certain kinds of people. You know, do you see that 93 00:06:07,750 --> 00:06:14,020 as like an opportunity to carve into something or move away? I 94 00:06:14,020 --> 00:06:18,040 suppose for me, I love Irish literature so much, and I have 95 00:06:18,070 --> 00:06:21,010 enough of a note of unscholarliness about me that I just thought what 96 00:06:21,010 --> 00:06:23,080 would happen if I tried this. Then I did. 97 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:28,940 Seán Hewitt: Which is a lovely freedom to push into. I think it's 98 00:06:28,940 --> 00:06:35,990 a poem that's been translated many times by different poets and 99 00:06:36,050 --> 00:06:40,880 scholars from different backgrounds. When it comes to 100 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:48,170 introducing that poem into your book of poems, with its sense of 101 00:06:48,740 --> 00:06:53,270 history, the violence in it, you know, the kind of other worldliness 102 00:06:53,300 --> 00:06:59,900 of that poem, but also you know bringing it in to a queer 103 00:07:00,020 --> 00:07:05,690 relationship with your own poems. What does that mean to you? Or, you 104 00:07:05,690 --> 00:07:10,280 know, how did you go about thinking about inhabiting that different 105 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,090 angle on history? Because I think it's an important thing that a lot 106 00:07:14,090 --> 00:07:18,590 of queer writers have to think about. It's kind of marking out a 107 00:07:18,590 --> 00:07:23,660 kind of historical reference point for their own work, and either you 108 00:07:24,260 --> 00:07:28,970 stand firmly in the center of that canon, as I think that this poem 109 00:07:29,150 --> 00:07:33,980 does, you know it's such a radical thing to do. Or you can kind of 110 00:07:34,100 --> 00:07:38,030 about face and turn against the canon completely. What was your 111 00:07:38,030 --> 00:07:38,840 relationship to it? 112 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,820 Míchéal McCann: When I came across that poem, one thing that struck me 113 00:07:43,820 --> 00:07:47,480 is that it is a keen but it's also a love poem, and I was trying to 114 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:53,600 sort of at that time, work through a really awful death that happened 115 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:59,420 in my family, and at the same time, I feel fortunate to be in a 116 00:07:59,420 --> 00:08:02,780 relationship that has a lot of love in it. So I think the poem pierced 117 00:08:02,780 --> 00:08:06,590 me in an odd way. I will say I wrote the poem without thinking of 118 00:08:06,590 --> 00:08:10,100 any of this, you know. I think, like all good poems, if you're 119 00:08:10,100 --> 00:08:14,420 thinking about reception or historicity or whatever, it's gonna 120 00:08:15,050 --> 00:08:19,160 not be worth toilet paper, you know. But I guess when I finished 121 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:24,320 it, I was sort of really seized by this sense, like, who am I to do 122 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:28,460 this? You know, it's because it's sort of when you're writing about 123 00:08:29,390 --> 00:08:32,300 queer subjects in a context that hasn't been written about. You sort 124 00:08:32,300 --> 00:08:36,170 of feel like, am I standing on people's toes? Seán, I don't 125 00:08:36,170 --> 00:08:39,110 really know how to answer your question, except to say that I was 126 00:08:39,110 --> 00:08:45,110 compelled to write it and I decided to be brave and just let it. 127 00:08:46,110 --> 00:08:51,720 Seán Hewitt: As writers, often we're asked to kind of put logic 128 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:57,270 back on a decision that we never made logically, and it could be 129 00:08:57,270 --> 00:09:01,590 quite difficult to retrospectively, kind of come up with the origin 130 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:08,640 story of something that just arrived. It seems that Devotion as 131 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:14,460 a collection is fundamentally a book of love poems, or it is at 132 00:09:14,460 --> 00:09:20,220 least pitched towards love. But underneath it, there is a lot of 133 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:27,270 violence simmering, whether it's incidental violence historical 134 00:09:27,270 --> 00:09:30,810 violence. Is that something that, as you were putting the book 135 00:09:30,810 --> 00:09:37,290 together became apparent to you, or was it always a kind of conscious 136 00:09:37,350 --> 00:09:42,180 concern that you wanted to temper love with violence in the book. 137 00:09:42,930 --> 00:09:46,800 Míchéal McCann: I suppose I write a lot about family and the terrain in 138 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,440 which I live, you know, political violence and, yeah, the 139 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:54,900 ramifications of that are very real. Love isn't just love blandly 140 00:09:54,900 --> 00:09:58,890 thrown on a wall. You know, it's so complicated by the trajectory for 141 00:09:58,890 --> 00:10:03,240 which it took to manifest. Itself. And so like, I think, as a queer 142 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,810 person, as a person who lives in this part of Ireland, as a person 143 00:10:06,810 --> 00:10:11,400 who is just still alive in this part of Ireland, like to not 144 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:15,930 acknowledge violence is to just be locked in your room and not 145 00:10:15,930 --> 00:10:17,580 thinking about stuff that's happening outside. 146 00:10:18,650 --> 00:10:21,260 Seán Hewitt: What I thought was really beautiful about the book is 147 00:10:21,260 --> 00:10:25,880 the way that you had ordered the poems so that we kind of tumble 148 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:31,580 through deepening understandings of the place in which the poems are 149 00:10:31,580 --> 00:10:35,120 being written from, and the poem that you're going to read for us 150 00:10:35,450 --> 00:10:42,710 emerges in some way out of that. Would you introduce the poem that 151 00:10:42,710 --> 00:10:47,330 you're going to read for us and tell us a little bit about it first 152 00:10:47,330 --> 00:10:48,500 and read it for us. 153 00:10:49,500 --> 00:10:52,170 Míchéal McCann: Marilyn Robinson is a very important writer to me, and 154 00:10:52,290 --> 00:10:55,470 one of the things I feel like I've learned from her is that it's 155 00:10:55,470 --> 00:11:00,030 important that we're not all recruited into the same models of 156 00:11:00,030 --> 00:11:04,710 thinking. I think writers are these sort of little magpies for not just 157 00:11:04,710 --> 00:11:07,800 thinking and creativity, but we're just sort of these like 158 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:13,020 cheesecloths through which so much stuff passes. And this poem that I'm 159 00:11:13,020 --> 00:11:17,700 going to read was me thinking about a certain kind of knowledge that I 160 00:11:17,700 --> 00:11:22,800 know as a queer person is true, and also an emotional truth that I feel 161 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:27,510 like I want to be a parent, right? And I guess I was wrestling with 162 00:11:27,570 --> 00:11:30,780 the fact that two things can be true at once, or maybe perhaps that 163 00:11:30,810 --> 00:11:37,080 love breaks down book learning quite quickly. So I'll read that 164 00:11:37,380 --> 00:11:39,600 because I think talking about poems is never as good as just reading 165 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:41,790 them. But you're very generous. 166 00:11:43,010 --> 00:11:49,670 To an Imagined Child. Friends of certain militant dispositions would 167 00:11:49,670 --> 00:11:54,380 have kittens hearing me address you like this. To have a child, they 168 00:11:54,380 --> 00:11:59,420 say, is a heterosexual fallacy! There's enough tragedy on this 169 00:11:59,420 --> 00:12:04,970 drowning world without a replica of me, making matters worse. And yet 170 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:09,260 book-learning crumbles in the face of a child's toy, a small pink 171 00:12:09,260 --> 00:12:14,690 hairbrush. I dream of you to the soft cluck of knitting needles. You 172 00:12:14,690 --> 00:12:18,350 would know me always in the same coat, waiting outside the school 173 00:12:18,350 --> 00:12:22,580 well before I had to. Maybe some part of us is meant to be weighed 174 00:12:22,610 --> 00:12:27,740 down, I might say to my friends. A diving line is often deployed in 175 00:12:27,740 --> 00:12:33,860 murky caves so a diver can ascend to gentle water. Child, I would 176 00:12:33,860 --> 00:12:38,330 stand still with this line around my trunk In the shallow water of 177 00:12:38,330 --> 00:12:42,830 our lives, so that you can tug twice for I'm okay. I'm okay, 178 00:12:42,830 --> 00:12:48,050 daddy, Go well into your own life and stand among flowers you cannot 179 00:12:48,050 --> 00:12:52,730 grow and smile knowing that wherever I go you follow as a 180 00:12:52,730 --> 00:12:54,230 prayer follows hope. 181 00:12:55,560 --> 00:13:01,170 Seán Hewitt: Thank you. You're welcome. I was really struck by the 182 00:13:01,170 --> 00:13:06,780 quietness and intimacy of this poem, and I wanted to touch on the 183 00:13:06,780 --> 00:13:12,030 last line first, particularly, as you mentioned, Marilyn Robinson is 184 00:13:12,060 --> 00:13:18,120 one of my favorite writers too. I wonder about poems and prayers, 185 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,690 which often kind of come up together, and is sometimes seen as 186 00:13:21,750 --> 00:13:29,460 as kindred. Does that prayer-like intention, ever inform the way that 187 00:13:29,460 --> 00:13:34,620 you write? You know, do you ever see poems as being related to the 188 00:13:34,620 --> 00:13:34,950 prayer? 189 00:13:35,740 --> 00:13:39,160 Míchéal McCann: I think so. But for me, when I'm in that zone, it 190 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,580 doesn't come often where I want to write a poem, or, you know, like 191 00:13:42,610 --> 00:13:47,140 you're on a plane, for example, and this moment of clarity, that's the 192 00:13:47,140 --> 00:13:50,590 only way I can understand writing poems. This moment of clarity 193 00:13:50,590 --> 00:13:58,120 pierces you, and you can sort of take that consciousness and impress 194 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,760 it into a poem. You know, I think that's just what a prayer is, you 195 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:05,800 know, it's like a hope for or an impression of something better or 196 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,850 something different, or, you know, like a type of light that directs 197 00:14:09,850 --> 00:14:14,080 you out of the mark of your own life. So, yeah, absolutely. 198 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,350 Seán Hewitt: I think I'm really struck by the way that you describe 199 00:14:18,350 --> 00:14:22,640 it. You know, the fundamental thing that really rings through all of 200 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:29,510 your poems is that impression of clarity, but also of hope and a 201 00:14:29,510 --> 00:14:34,610 sense of things might be better. Kind of at the end of stanza three, 202 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:40,130 you say, you know, "there's enough tragedy on this drowning world 203 00:14:40,130 --> 00:14:46,460 without a replica of me making matters worse. And yet" And what 204 00:14:46,460 --> 00:14:50,060 another poet might have done might have been to make this a lengthy 205 00:14:50,060 --> 00:14:54,140 poem of critique of you know, what other people might say and to 206 00:14:54,140 --> 00:15:01,190 take down, but you actually, from stanza three, just lift into a 207 00:15:01,190 --> 00:15:06,170 dream, a sense of a better future or a different life. Do you find 208 00:15:06,170 --> 00:15:11,870 yourself approaching things positively, rather than you know, 209 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:19,400 succumbing maybe to the temptation to anger or critique or negativity? 210 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:23,210 Is that? Is that something that's, you know, apparent to you in your 211 00:15:23,210 --> 00:15:24,170 own writing. 212 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:29,910 Míchéal McCann: That's a really beautiful question. I read a book a 213 00:15:29,910 --> 00:15:33,840 long time ago now by Michael Snedeker called Queer Optimism. 214 00:15:34,710 --> 00:15:37,080 It's a book about happiness and joy, which we know in critical 215 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,180 writing doesn't get written about a lot. And he talks about the 216 00:15:39,180 --> 00:15:42,900 difference between sort of naive happiness and sort of 217 00:15:42,990 --> 00:15:46,290 adult-informed happiness, or joy, or whatever he's talking 218 00:15:46,290 --> 00:15:50,670 about. And to be clear, you know, that book proceeds through like 219 00:15:50,940 --> 00:15:55,800 suicide, of not wanting to be alive anymore and persisting, and that is 220 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,530 what informs that sort of subjectivity you're talking about. 221 00:15:58,530 --> 00:16:05,040 You know, it's like I have a sunny disposition. I think being amongst 222 00:16:05,130 --> 00:16:09,930 human beings is the greatest gift we have. But like, I haven't like, 223 00:16:09,930 --> 00:16:14,580 that's a hard one. It's not like, I just wake up, wake up in bed 224 00:16:14,580 --> 00:16:17,910 with my cats, and I throw open the curtains. Do you know what I mean? 225 00:16:17,910 --> 00:16:21,240 Like, you have to work hard to see the world in that way, and 226 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,390 it's not deluded. Do you know what I mean? 227 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:30,660 Seán Hewitt: Yeah, I don't see much poetry by men that's looking into 228 00:16:30,660 --> 00:16:35,160 the kind of the domestic sphere. And that seems to me something 229 00:16:35,220 --> 00:16:38,850 different here. You know, queer domesticity seems like something 230 00:16:38,850 --> 00:16:43,080 that might be out of fashion, or, you know, you just don't hear about 231 00:16:43,110 --> 00:16:49,740 it a lot and part of the kind of voices in the back of your 232 00:16:49,740 --> 00:16:57,060 poem that might accuse you of a heterosexual fallacy, are perhaps 233 00:16:57,060 --> 00:17:02,220 some of the reasons why we don't hear much of this really 234 00:17:02,220 --> 00:17:09,300 important facet of queer life. You know, we all have home lives as 235 00:17:09,300 --> 00:17:15,570 well and I think that often queer literature is looking in 236 00:17:15,570 --> 00:17:19,890 other places to pull away from these ideas that it might call 237 00:17:21,270 --> 00:17:28,650 heterosexual or, you know, it might say, are in some ways, traps into 238 00:17:28,650 --> 00:17:33,990 which we fall after liberation, assimilation, or 239 00:17:33,990 --> 00:17:38,490 something like that? It made me think about your experience with 240 00:17:39,330 --> 00:17:45,480 queer poetry as you started writing, I wondered what that 241 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:50,010 process of discovery was like for you and who have been your kind of 242 00:17:50,010 --> 00:17:53,310 guiding lights, or, you know, touchstones. 243 00:17:54,500 --> 00:17:56,480 Míchéal McCann: I had a very formative year around the age of 244 00:17:56,510 --> 00:18:01,550 19, I think when, in like one hour, was introduced to Elizabeth Bishop 245 00:18:01,580 --> 00:18:08,390 and Mark Doty. You can imagine how dazzling that was for me. And I go 246 00:18:08,390 --> 00:18:12,800 back to both of them a lot for very different reasons. You know, I 247 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,940 actually, to be honest, Mark Doty was, you know, Mark Doty helped me 248 00:18:16,940 --> 00:18:21,590 sort of write about my life in concrete terms that I never quite 249 00:18:21,590 --> 00:18:24,380 had access to before, but there's something about just that 250 00:18:24,410 --> 00:18:31,040 devastating clarity, without giving anything away, that Bishop has. You 251 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,010 know, Sylvia Plath has done as much for me as someone who shares the 252 00:18:34,010 --> 00:18:36,470 same sexuality as me. You know, like I've mentioned Marie Howe 253 00:18:36,470 --> 00:18:40,130 before, I think of all poets living or dead, she's had the most 254 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,220 transformative impact to me, do you know? So, yeah 255 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,140 Seán Hewitt: I can hear her in the background of your poems. 256 00:18:47,140 --> 00:18:51,340 And I think I'm glad you mentioned Mark Doty as well, because I, you 257 00:18:51,340 --> 00:18:54,280 know, in a geeky way, there was something in some of your line 258 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,910 breaks that I was like, "Oh, you know, that's such a good 259 00:18:57,910 --> 00:19:01,510 line break." And then I thought, "yeah, that's also 260 00:19:01,510 --> 00:19:05,740 quite a Mark Doty line break, "child, I would stand still with 261 00:19:05,740 --> 00:19:10,450 this line around my trunk in the shallow water" line break, or 262 00:19:10,450 --> 00:19:13,930 actually stanza break "of our lives." And I think that “of our 263 00:19:13,930 --> 00:19:19,810 lives” is such a Mark Doty-esque addition, because he has this way of 264 00:19:20,020 --> 00:19:28,630 pulling the apparently normal, just standing with you in water into 265 00:19:28,630 --> 00:19:32,020 something kind of expansive. You know, he has that kind of prayerful 266 00:19:32,410 --> 00:19:36,850 expansion in his problems that always seem to me to give them a 267 00:19:36,850 --> 00:19:42,070 great sense of lift and kind of the unexpected. I love him too. 268 00:19:42,870 --> 00:19:47,430 Okay. Mícheál McCann, we are going to take a short break now, and when 269 00:19:47,430 --> 00:19:51,420 we come back, you're going to tell me about one of your favorite and 270 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,440 my favorite poets, Fiona Benson, and a poem about fireflies. 271 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:56,760 Míchéal McCann: Sounds good. 272 00:20:07,890 --> 00:20:10,230 Cathy & Peter Halstead: We hope you're enjoying this second season 273 00:20:10,230 --> 00:20:14,640 of The Glimpse. It's just one small part of the Adrian Brinkerhoff 274 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:19,470 Poetry Foundation. We're the founders, Peter and Cathy Halstead. 275 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:25,080 Our goal is to make great poetry more accessible to everyone, and we 276 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:29,820 do that in a variety of ways: through partnerships, our film 277 00:20:29,820 --> 00:20:36,360 series, this podcast, and our website, brinkerhoffpoetry.org. We 278 00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:40,890 hope these works will lure you into a parallel universe the way a 279 00:20:40,890 --> 00:20:45,360 Möbius strip brings you into another dimension without leaving 280 00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:48,390 the page you're on. Thank you so much for listening. 281 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:54,240 Seán Hewitt: Mícheál McCann, we were speaking about your poem “To an 282 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:58,590 Imagined Child,” and now you're going to read one of my favorite 283 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,100 poets, and I imagine your favorite poets as well, or else you wouldn't 284 00:21:02,100 --> 00:21:09,300 have chosen Fiona Benson. This is a poem from Firefly Suite. Would you 285 00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:12,960 tell us a little bit about why it is that you've chosen it and then 286 00:21:12,990 --> 00:21:13,860 read it for us? 287 00:21:14,260 --> 00:21:17,500 Míchéal McCann: How to summarize Fiona Benson in a few words? For 288 00:21:17,500 --> 00:21:23,380 anyone listening who hasn't heard of her, go and read her. She's a 289 00:21:23,380 --> 00:21:28,960 mixture of tender heartedness and ferocity I've ever read. And the 290 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:36,580 reason I chose this poem is that she marries technical virtuosity 291 00:21:36,580 --> 00:21:44,350 with incredible feeling, you know, and isn't afraid to be very ugly in 292 00:21:44,350 --> 00:21:46,870 the poems, you know, there's like, sort of a sharp jankiness to them, 293 00:21:46,870 --> 00:21:50,290 and then there's also incredible control. And oh gosh, I'm actually 294 00:21:50,290 --> 00:21:52,300 becoming incoherent. I love her work so much. 295 00:21:52,540 --> 00:21:56,950 Seán Hewitt: No, I think so too. I mean, she's such a brave poet as 296 00:21:56,950 --> 00:22:03,400 well as an astute one, and I find her poems completely incredible. So 297 00:22:03,430 --> 00:22:07,840 why don't we stop gushing about it? We'll gush again afterwards. But 298 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:09,040 would you read it for us? 299 00:22:09,330 --> 00:22:13,950 Míchéal McCann: Yes, I will read it. So this is the first poem from 300 00:22:14,100 --> 00:22:18,660 a sequence called Firefly Suite. So this poem is called "Big Dipper, 301 00:22:18,660 --> 00:22:24,120 Fireflies (Photinus pyralis)" and It's dedicated to Mair Bosworth. 302 00:22:26,580 --> 00:22:32,400 Silently at dusk The big dippers rising from the grass – green and 303 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:38,520 upwards, cinders, gentle, wandering stars – and we two on our knees 304 00:22:38,550 --> 00:22:43,110 cupping them up, holding them close, like something we lost at 305 00:22:43,110 --> 00:22:48,990 the edge of the forest and loved. How we are enthralled as the soft 306 00:22:48,990 --> 00:22:53,940 green flush in the lamp we make of our hands comes and goes, how we 307 00:22:53,940 --> 00:22:58,530 peer into the improvised chambers we make with our fingers to see 308 00:22:58,530 --> 00:23:03,960 them housed, their beetle wings striped like sunflower seeds, and 309 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,500 the tender segments of their bellies glimmering like tree-sap 310 00:23:07,830 --> 00:23:12,960 breathing, an emerald electric pulse. And though we've been 311 00:23:12,990 --> 00:23:17,400 disenchanted, strangers to ourselves in multiple prisons, 312 00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:24,480 unleaved, unskyed (I've been ready to lie down dearest dust, I have 313 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:31,410 wanted to die) once more in wonder the raw green girl who lives in me 314 00:23:31,410 --> 00:23:37,560 still trembles, ignites; and we open our hands like books, let them 315 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:38,100 fly. 316 00:23:40,490 --> 00:23:44,930 Seán Hewitt: So good. I kind of want to talk about every single 317 00:23:45,350 --> 00:23:50,360 line at this point. But you know when you when you read it, their 318 00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:55,610 bellies glimmering like tree sap breathing an electric an emerald 319 00:23:55,670 --> 00:24:02,390 electric pulse. And although I've never seen fireflies or big dipper 320 00:24:02,390 --> 00:24:06,350 fireflies, you almost feel that you could recreate them in your mind 321 00:24:06,350 --> 00:24:09,710 from this, which is a strange thing with insects as well, because 322 00:24:09,710 --> 00:24:14,570 they're so kind of alien to us. But even the idea of them having 323 00:24:14,570 --> 00:24:18,560 beetle wings, stripes, like sunflower seeds, the tender 324 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,040 segments of their bellies glimmering, you know, we go from 325 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:28,700 this quite otherworldly opening, which almost seems like, 326 00:24:28,730 --> 00:24:33,470 a fairy tale opening, where at the edge of the wood there are glowing 327 00:24:33,470 --> 00:24:38,360 things as kind of even the sense of constellations and stars and two 328 00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:43,220 people wandering towards it, and then zoom in straight down onto the 329 00:24:43,220 --> 00:24:50,960 tiniest, kind of tender moment. And when I said before about Fiona 330 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,850 Benson being a brave poet, that parenthesis towards the end of the 331 00:24:55,850 --> 00:24:59,750 poem is such a brave moment. 332 00:24:59,780 --> 00:25:00,650 Míchéal McCann: Staggering. 333 00:25:00,890 --> 00:25:03,770 Seán Hewitt: "I've been ready to lie down, dearest dust. I have 334 00:25:03,770 --> 00:25:10,490 wanted to die." It just takes the heart out of you when you read 335 00:25:10,490 --> 00:25:17,660 that, because everything in that moment is suddenly weighted with 336 00:25:17,660 --> 00:25:24,710 its possible other life or its past life, that seems to actually 337 00:25:24,710 --> 00:25:27,230 increase the form of wonder in the poem. 338 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,510 Míchéal McCann: I think it's all about reenchantment, you know, like 339 00:25:30,510 --> 00:25:34,830 that. We have these sort of improvised chambers, like blue, 340 00:25:34,860 --> 00:25:41,850 green and like this little parenthetical note doesn't detract 341 00:25:41,850 --> 00:25:45,180 from that, but it also, you know, is really interesting to me about 342 00:25:45,180 --> 00:25:50,040 how the human spirit moves towards a wonder, despite, yeah, you know, 343 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,790 I just, I just, I find it so remarkable how she's managed to 344 00:25:53,790 --> 00:25:58,050 make that parentheses and this glimmering, glowing, moving poem 345 00:25:58,080 --> 00:25:58,860 work together. 346 00:25:59,050 --> 00:26:01,450 Seán Hewitt: Yeah. I mean, in some way, it's a poem about re 347 00:26:01,450 --> 00:26:05,020 enchantment and everything that that kind of entails. It seems to 348 00:26:05,020 --> 00:26:14,740 me, a sort of redemption of things and grace, maybe. And in some 349 00:26:14,740 --> 00:26:21,880 ways, having the admission in parenthesis there at once kind of 350 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:26,320 gives you a sense of the disenchantment that we're moving 351 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:31,990 away from, and what power there must be in enchantment to do that. 352 00:26:33,460 --> 00:26:40,090 But also, I think, in bracketing it, it almost comes as an aside in 353 00:26:40,090 --> 00:26:44,740 this moment, so it doesn't actually puncture the moment of the poem. It 354 00:26:44,740 --> 00:26:51,580 doesn't end there. You know, we go straight back to the wonderful 355 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:56,800 thing. And so the moment of tenderness is held within the poem. 356 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,240 Míchéal McCann: I think it's made all the more brilliant for its 357 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,660 presence, though, do you know what I mean? I just, "brave" is the word 358 00:27:02,660 --> 00:27:07,160 she used, you know? But I think we are like an accumulation of all the 359 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,560 things that have brought us to the point we're at. You know, I very 360 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,550 much read this poem as like a flashing moment within a really 361 00:27:13,550 --> 00:27:18,500 extraordinarily beautiful experience where I've been ready to 362 00:27:18,500 --> 00:27:20,750 lay down dearest dust. I have wanted to die, and then it goes 363 00:27:20,750 --> 00:27:27,260 again. You know, it's miraculous, is what I would describe this in 364 00:27:27,260 --> 00:27:28,340 her whole work as. 365 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,360 Seán Hewitt: I mean, to begin a sequence like this is impressive, 366 00:27:31,450 --> 00:27:35,770 because where are you gonna go after? The idea of writing that 367 00:27:35,770 --> 00:27:39,190 poem and then sitting down and thinking, "Okay, and another one" 368 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:47,470 is an incredible feat that I'm extremely jealous of and amazed by. 369 00:27:48,100 --> 00:27:54,910 You know, I have a new sense of wonder in the world. I've become 370 00:27:54,910 --> 00:28:00,640 very sad that I haven't seen the Big Dipper Firefly, or had this 371 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:01,900 moment myself, 372 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,656 Míchéal McCann: I find myself thinking about the term 373 00:28:03,726 --> 00:28:08,183 reenchantment, because there's nothing divine going on here, you 374 00:28:08,253 --> 00:28:12,988 know, like the very title of the poem, even, like the little sort of 375 00:28:13,058 --> 00:28:17,654 Latin species note indicates like there's nothing miraculous about 376 00:28:17,724 --> 00:28:22,181 this, you know, yeah. And I think an extraordinary way for me to 377 00:28:22,251 --> 00:28:26,360 think about this poem is this was here all along, you know. 378 00:28:26,360 --> 00:28:32,270 Seán Hewitt: I think that this poem, and the sequence is, it was 379 00:28:32,270 --> 00:28:37,130 part of a project for Fiona, wasn't it? About biodiversity And 380 00:28:37,220 --> 00:28:43,730 insects and, I think that you can listen to the podcasts that 381 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:49,970 Mair Bosworth produced, of this, of the sequence. Am I 382 00:28:49,970 --> 00:28:50,330 right? 383 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:51,380 Míchéal McCann: I think you're right. I remember that 384 00:28:51,100 --> 00:28:54,812 Seán Hewitt: That’s where it comes from and I think that part of the 385 00:28:54,889 --> 00:28:59,607 precision in the language is obviously Fiona's, but it's also 386 00:28:59,685 --> 00:29:04,789 kind of informed by the sort of close attention that scientists do 387 00:29:04,867 --> 00:29:09,817 as well. And maybe the bracketed kind of species name there is a 388 00:29:09,894 --> 00:29:14,921 bridging of the gap between the poet's world view. The big dipper 389 00:29:14,999 --> 00:29:19,871 fireflies is kind of the poet's way of describing, and then the 390 00:29:19,948 --> 00:29:25,208 Latinate name is the scientific and in this poem, they kind of blend 391 00:29:25,285 --> 00:29:30,467 together. You know, there's such a small precision in the language, 392 00:29:30,544 --> 00:29:35,726 and then it has this lift which feels poetic as well. I don't know. 393 00:29:35,804 --> 00:29:41,063 I think that there's something that feels almost collaborative about 394 00:29:36,300 --> 00:29:46,590 the way that this poem comes together. 395 00:29:41,140 --> 00:29:44,080 Míchéal McCann: I mean, I'm sure listeners are thinking within the 396 00:29:46,590 --> 00:29:50,070 minute, but one of the greatest honors of my whole life is 397 00:29:50,070 --> 00:29:54,330 realizing that you can just live a life talking about poems like we've 398 00:29:54,330 --> 00:29:58,920 been talking about a parentheses for how long, but what we're doing 399 00:29:59,580 --> 00:30:03,330 in the world we live in is one of the few things that doesn't hurt 400 00:30:03,540 --> 00:30:08,190 anyone. We're talking about parentheses and like, you know, but 401 00:30:08,190 --> 00:30:12,300 I'm serious, like, and that's so extraordinary to think. 402 00:30:12,870 --> 00:30:14,760 Seán Hewitt: Well, I mean, in some ways it's, you know, you were 403 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,300 talking about, kind of the redirection of attention. And 404 00:30:18,300 --> 00:30:23,370 that's kind of what reading poems like this does to us, even for a 405 00:30:23,370 --> 00:30:29,670 half an hour in the day, you're pulled towards an attention on 406 00:30:29,670 --> 00:30:33,630 something as small as a parenthesis and what it might make you feel, or 407 00:30:33,630 --> 00:30:41,670 how strangely brave you know, three lines of poetry can can be in the 408 00:30:41,670 --> 00:30:47,340 middle of a poem. So there is something in that. I don't 409 00:30:47,340 --> 00:30:54,000 know what we should apologize for. Yeah, what are you working on now? 410 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:55,110 Míchéal McCann: None of your Business (laughs). 411 00:30:58,620 --> 00:31:00,870 Seán Hewitt: I like it when people refuse to tell me these things. 412 00:31:01,860 --> 00:31:04,650 Míchéal McCann: I am working on my second book of 413 00:31:04,650 --> 00:31:11,970 poems at the minute, which sort of orbit the lives of the saints, 414 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:20,190 hagiography, where I'm sort of zoning in and out of written lives, 415 00:31:20,220 --> 00:31:24,030 unwritten lives, my family, otherwise, you know, and it's fun, 416 00:31:24,060 --> 00:31:28,950 it's very different. And, yeah, I'm writing, that is what I'm doing. 417 00:31:29,350 --> 00:31:32,590 Seán Hewitt: That is very exciting, as I'm talking to you now, I can 418 00:31:32,590 --> 00:31:37,930 literally just put my hand above my bookcase and pull out the Penguin 419 00:31:37,930 --> 00:31:41,710 Dictionary of the Saints, which I used to have by my bed. I found it 420 00:31:41,710 --> 00:31:47,290 in a charity shop, and I would every night or so do you know 421 00:31:47,770 --> 00:31:55,450 letter E of the saints, and there's such incredible stories and so much 422 00:31:55,450 --> 00:32:01,150 variety in them, I can't wait to see what you do with them. That is 423 00:32:01,180 --> 00:32:02,500 very exciting news. 424 00:32:02,620 --> 00:32:03,430 Seán Hewitt: Mícheál McCann, it has been a real pleasure talking to 425 00:32:03,990 --> 00:32:07,890 you. Thank you for taking the time to come on The Glimpse 426 00:32:07,890 --> 00:32:10,650 Míchéal McCann: That was a gift. Thanks, Seán 427 00:32:10,950 --> 00:32:12,000 Míchéal McCann: 428 00:32:18,150 --> 00:32:21,180 Seán Hewitt: Thanks for joining us today. I'm your host. Seán Hewitt 429 00:32:21,990 --> 00:32:25,920 Mícheál's poem "To an Imagined Child is from Devotion, published 430 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,280 in 2024 and aired with the kind permission of the author and the 431 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,750 Gallery Press. Fiona Benson's poem Big Dipper Fireflies is from 432 00:32:33,780 --> 00:32:38,220 Ephemeron, published by Jonathan Cape in 2022 copyright Fiona 433 00:32:38,220 --> 00:32:41,370 Benson. It was aired with the permission of the author, care of 434 00:32:41,370 --> 00:32:42,870 Rogers, Coleridge and White 435 00:32:44,610 --> 00:32:48,240 Coming up next week, poet Nithy Kasa talks about the challenge of 436 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,930 balancing her life, identity, and work between Dublin and the 437 00:32:51,930 --> 00:32:53,730 Democratic Republic of Congo. 438 00:32:56,210 --> 00:32:58,760 Make sure to subscribe to The Glimpse wherever you get your 439 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,850 podcasts. You can also find episodes on our website, 440 00:33:02,060 --> 00:33:06,200 Brinkerhoff poetry.org/podcast. We'd also love to hear from you. 441 00:33:06,410 --> 00:33:11,660 Drop us an email at the glimpse poetry podcast@gmail.com The 442 00:33:11,660 --> 00:33:14,150 Glimpse is a production of the Adrian Brinkerhoff Poetry 443 00:33:14,150 --> 00:33:18,530 Foundation. I'm your host, Seán Hewitt. Our Senior Producer is 444 00:33:18,530 --> 00:33:22,010 Jennifer Wolfe. Kat Yore is our technical director and mixing 445 00:33:22,010 --> 00:33:26,120 engineer. Editorial Director Amanda Glassman is our curator and 446 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,810 production coordinator. Amy Holmes is the foundation's Executive 447 00:33:29,810 --> 00:33:35,030 Director, and our co founders are Cathy and Peter Halstead. Thanks 448 00:33:35,030 --> 00:33:35,600 for listening.