Title: This is a F*** You Poem Description: Poet Omotara James and host Camille Rankine explore the tension between vulnerability and confidence in poetry. They also delve into the language of pleasure and cruelty as well as the importance of subverting tropes. SPEAKERS Camille Rankine and Omotara James 1 00:00:02,639 --> 00:00:03,389 Unknown: The Glimpse. 2 00:00:05,819 --> 00:00:10,319 Omotara James: It's important to subvert tropes. It's really 3 00:00:10,319 --> 00:00:17,669 interesting. During this time of social media, body positivity, fat 4 00:00:17,669 --> 00:00:23,459 liberation, I feel that times couldn't really be more polarizing. 5 00:00:23,669 --> 00:00:29,669 The more space that is created socially, for people who are fat, 6 00:00:30,299 --> 00:00:37,859 super fat infini-fat, the more visceral and vitriol there is 7 00:00:38,009 --> 00:00:40,079 around our bodies. 8 00:00:42,750 --> 00:00:45,120 Camille Rankine: Welcome to The Glimpse. I'm your host Camille 9 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:50,520 Rankine poet, Omotara James is skilled at subversion. She's the 10 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,790 author of the poetry collection Song of My Softening and her work 11 00:00:53,790 --> 00:00:57,390 has been featured in NPR's Morning Edition, the Paris Review 12 00:00:57,540 --> 00:01:01,080 and the Believer. She has received support from the African Poetry 13 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,830 Book Fund, the Poetry Foundation, Lambda Literary and Cave Canem 14 00:01:04,830 --> 00:01:13,350 Foundation. Omotara is our guest today on The Glimpse. In her debut 15 00:01:13,350 --> 00:01:17,490 poetry collection Song of my Softening, Omotara James carves 16 00:01:17,490 --> 00:01:21,510 out a hard earned way of knowing a way of seeing through the language 17 00:01:21,510 --> 00:01:25,680 we've been given to a clear understanding of self, of body, of 18 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:30,240 being. Her voice and these poems moves with a surefooted and sensual 19 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:35,010 grace through pain and shame toward abundance and a tender-truth 20 00:01:35,010 --> 00:01:39,330 telling. Hers is an eye that doesn't shy away, she lifts what 21 00:01:39,330 --> 00:01:42,840 the world has hidden in shadow up to the light, and lets it shimmer. 22 00:01:43,470 --> 00:01:45,510 Welcome Omotara, thanks for being here. 23 00:01:45,960 --> 00:01:48,570 Omotara James: Thank you, I'm so happy to be here with you. 24 00:01:48,599 --> 00:01:51,209 Camille Rankine: Yeah, I'm really happy to be talking to you. I want 25 00:01:51,209 --> 00:01:54,389 to start off just by asking about your poems in general, as I was 26 00:01:54,389 --> 00:01:58,019 reading your book, I was thinking about this balance that they strike 27 00:01:58,229 --> 00:02:00,809 between vulnerability and confidence, and they can be really 28 00:02:00,809 --> 00:02:04,829 intimate at the same time unbowed and unbossed. channel, Shirley 29 00:02:04,829 --> 00:02:07,919 Chisholm. And I just wondered, like, how do you arrive at that 30 00:02:07,919 --> 00:02:09,959 space as a poet or as a person? 31 00:02:11,310 --> 00:02:14,880 Omotara James: You know, I feel like I'm always trying to navigate 32 00:02:15,210 --> 00:02:23,400 a kind of balance and generosity in my life. So whatever is happening, 33 00:02:23,790 --> 00:02:28,920 within my interiority, I tried to bring that to the work. And so I'm 34 00:02:28,920 --> 00:02:37,170 very focused on my process, which means I'm focused on what it feels 35 00:02:37,170 --> 00:02:44,070 like, as I'm perceiving the world, entering into the actual writing 36 00:02:44,070 --> 00:02:49,440 phase, I try to have a ritual, that book ends the process when I write, 37 00:02:49,650 --> 00:02:53,880 so that when I walk into the poem, I know that there's going to be a 38 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:58,230 beginning, a middle and an end, There's a finite amount of time. 39 00:02:58,530 --> 00:03:03,240 And that gives me some kind of surety and confidence in my 40 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:08,760 process, knowing that, okay, I get to decide how it ends. And even 41 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:13,500 though I don't know how it's going to end, I still get to decide. So 42 00:03:13,740 --> 00:03:20,640 it makes me feel some sort of power and control. That's so 43 00:03:20,640 --> 00:03:23,640 Camille Rankine: Interesting. I feel like I see that in your work 44 00:03:23,640 --> 00:03:27,600 like that sense of power and control is so present in the poems 45 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:32,190 and it's interesting, because that comes through even when what the 46 00:03:32,190 --> 00:03:35,700 poems are talking about might lack that control, like the actual 47 00:03:35,700 --> 00:03:39,300 scenario or subject your narrative, there might be talking about a lack 48 00:03:39,300 --> 00:03:42,480 of control, but the poems themselves feel in control of their 49 00:03:42,540 --> 00:03:44,730 of their matter if that makes sense. You know, I think that's 50 00:03:44,730 --> 00:03:46,350 really interesting how that power comes through. 51 00:03:47,010 --> 00:03:51,330 Omotara James: It does that creates that delicious sort of tension, you 52 00:03:51,330 --> 00:03:56,700 know, between helplessness and control. And that's how I'm always 53 00:03:56,700 --> 00:04:01,860 trying to strike a balance, what I'm always navigating. And I 54 00:04:01,860 --> 00:04:07,230 remember when I was I think it was a Breadloaf with Vievee Francis, 55 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:13,860 one of my favorite American poets, and she told us that we should have 56 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:18,180 a beginning and end to the writing process when we are writing about 57 00:04:18,180 --> 00:04:23,880 something traumatic, problematic, you know, because that grace that 58 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:27,270 we give ourselves, we'll find it again, in the work. 59 00:04:27,390 --> 00:04:30,930 Camille Rankine: Right? Do you feel like that process, that beginning, 60 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,330 middle and end that process? Is that consistent for you? Or does it 61 00:04:33,330 --> 00:04:35,700 change depending on the poem and the work you're working on? 62 00:04:36,390 --> 00:04:41,730 Omotara James: Hmm. It changes Yeah, it also changes depending on 63 00:04:41,730 --> 00:04:47,010 the time of day that I'm working, because when I work in the 64 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:53,550 evenings, that's when I'm my least guarded self, my most open my most 65 00:04:53,580 --> 00:04:59,970 vulnerable and everything becomes a little blurry. Right? The 66 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:05,400 boundary between being awake and being asleep, the boundary between 67 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:14,490 what I remember and what I can't forget. So I'm trying to, on the 68 00:05:14,490 --> 00:05:20,340 one hand blur the boundary, and channel some kind of spiritual, 69 00:05:20,340 --> 00:05:26,220 psychic energy. But also my intellect is also thinking along 70 00:05:26,280 --> 00:05:31,080 certain themes that I am certain concerns that I'm exploring. 71 00:05:31,110 --> 00:05:33,330 Camille Rankine: Yeah, that's so interesting. That tension, that 72 00:05:33,330 --> 00:05:36,570 balance is so present in all these different ways. I think that's a 73 00:05:36,570 --> 00:05:40,080 lot of what makes poetry kind of electric, you know? Yeah, 74 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,700 absolutely. All right. Well, let's hear a poem if we can. I'd love to 75 00:05:44,700 --> 00:05:46,800 hear you read the poem that you're going to share today. 76 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:55,830 Omotara James: Okay, absolutely. So I'll be reading from my debut 77 00:05:55,830 --> 00:06:03,570 collection, After the Last Calorie of the Apocalypse, or Prayer for 78 00:06:03,570 --> 00:06:12,090 the Clinically Obese. On the last day, let there be a fat inhalation 79 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:19,290 of delight between the lap of our sunrise. As the tongue separates the 80 00:06:19,290 --> 00:06:25,050 doubt from the cream, let pleasure sift through the metal strainer of 81 00:06:25,050 --> 00:06:33,180 time. Only hours now, waiting for the thin people in my life to die. 82 00:06:33,420 --> 00:06:39,930 I read a magazine, have sex, smoke a cigarette, and ride the elevator 83 00:06:39,930 --> 00:06:46,950 down to the lobby. We've only minutes now. Having nothing against 84 00:06:46,950 --> 00:06:53,190 them personally, unlike art, they don't improve much upon the 85 00:06:53,190 --> 00:07:01,860 original form. Why was I ever only awake to the past, my past selves 86 00:07:01,950 --> 00:07:07,920 asleep to what was plentiful. Exiting the lobby for the corner 87 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:14,670 store, I pass an absurdity of them. Only seconds now, staunchly 88 00:07:14,730 --> 00:07:21,450 insisting their last instance be tailored to fit. Their paper lips 89 00:07:21,540 --> 00:07:27,780 fanning the tulle hem of my dress, red, for the rest of us, mere 90 00:07:27,810 --> 00:07:36,090 moments away from freedom, from this fine tyranny. If only for a short 91 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:44,970 while, as they begin to shrivel and wilt. Oh, mercy of the thin breeze. 92 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:51,570 On this day, lovelies, we will be free when the food runs out. 93 00:07:53,670 --> 00:07:56,160 Camille Rankine: Thank you. I'm obsessed with that poem a little 94 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:56,490 bit. 95 00:07:57,330 --> 00:07:58,170 Omotara James: Oh my gosh! 96 00:07:58,530 --> 00:08:00,090 Camille Rankine: I love it. I love the way that you read it. 97 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:01,290 Omotara James: Thank you. 98 00:08:01,590 --> 00:08:04,320 Camille Rankine: Yeah, it's so gorgeous. And I'm just thinking 99 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,860 about like, the language of pleasure, especially that like 100 00:08:07,890 --> 00:08:12,540 immediately draws us in breath, sunrise, tongue, cream, sex 101 00:08:12,540 --> 00:08:18,270 cigarette. Like it feels so warm and languid in its opening. Can 102 00:08:18,270 --> 00:08:22,020 You talk about the choices that you made an image and language 103 00:08:22,020 --> 00:08:23,130 to create that feeling. 104 00:08:23,970 --> 00:08:29,220 Omotara James: Yeah, you know, I wanted to begin the poem with a 105 00:08:29,220 --> 00:08:39,390 feeling of exultation of almost climax. And I was very aware that I 106 00:08:39,390 --> 00:08:44,070 wanted to begin probably in a higher register than I wanted to 107 00:08:44,070 --> 00:08:55,140 end. So I was thinking like, a gorgeous sunrise, a deep pastel, 108 00:08:55,350 --> 00:09:02,760 creamy, abstract, a Renoir sunrise, something that you just couldn't 109 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:09,360 help but be drawn to, and compelled by something delicious. And I 110 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:15,960 wanted to begin with pleasure. And I wanted there to be slippage 111 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:23,010 between the deliciousness that you see, and the deliciousness that you 112 00:09:23,010 --> 00:09:28,350 taste, right, and then we get into the body. So that's the tongue 113 00:09:28,740 --> 00:09:32,370 separating the doubt from the cream, which is like, Okay, what 114 00:09:32,370 --> 00:09:35,670 does that mean? We don't know entirely, but it's very lyric. It's 115 00:09:35,670 --> 00:09:41,250 very evocative. And certainly, as the poem continues, there's this 116 00:09:41,820 --> 00:09:48,180 element, this thread of cruelty, right? And that's kind of 117 00:09:48,210 --> 00:09:56,430 underpinning the poem and I didn't want to point too overtly, to the 118 00:09:56,700 --> 00:10:00,810 what was happening outside of the speaker, like the exposition. I 119 00:10:00,810 --> 00:10:05,820 didn't feel that we needed a lot of exposition in an apocalypse poem. 120 00:10:05,940 --> 00:10:09,150 Yeah, we get it. There's a dissonance there. There's a 121 00:10:09,150 --> 00:10:18,540 dissonance between this excessive pleasure to all of a sudden, we're 122 00:10:18,540 --> 00:10:20,760 smoking a cigarette, and we're having a sex and we're reading a 123 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:24,600 magazine, which is really pedestrian. And then as we 124 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:31,650 continue, the eye of the poem kind of opens out to everything that the 125 00:10:31,650 --> 00:10:36,240 speaker is just kind of walking through. And the cameras just kind 126 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,960 of like following her. And she's the only one who's in focus, 127 00:10:40,020 --> 00:10:44,130 walking through this apocalyptic state, where thin people are just 128 00:10:44,130 --> 00:10:48,150 falling to the ground. And she saying, Yes, that's right. That's 129 00:10:48,150 --> 00:10:53,130 right. And with every, with every single person that is obliterated, 130 00:10:53,190 --> 00:10:58,140 she is occupying more space, she's becoming more confident, she's 131 00:10:58,140 --> 00:11:03,300 feeling more liberated. And so there's this relationship between 132 00:11:03,630 --> 00:11:09,570 occupying space and a fat body and being liberated, and just being 133 00:11:09,570 --> 00:11:15,150 left alone, you know, not having anyone critique you too closely. 134 00:11:15,390 --> 00:11:20,850 And so that was how I began the poem. Yeah. 135 00:11:21,690 --> 00:11:23,430 Camille Rankine: I love that. You've mentioned this idea, this 136 00:11:23,430 --> 00:11:26,280 element of cruelty, which one of the things that I really find 137 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:30,600 myself drawn to is the voice of the poem in moments like that, with 138 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:34,350 like, having done nothing against them personally, unlike art, they 139 00:11:34,350 --> 00:11:37,830 don't improve much upon original form. I just love that "eye" that just 140 00:11:37,830 --> 00:11:39,900 like, they're fine, I suppose. 141 00:11:41,310 --> 00:11:44,340 Omotara James: I mean, it's funny. I thought that was funny. Yes, 142 00:11:44,370 --> 00:11:45,780 Camille Rankine: Yes I think it's hilarious.I love that. 143 00:11:45,810 --> 00:11:51,420 Omotara James: Thank you I'm a funny poet. People don't get 144 00:11:51,420 --> 00:11:51,780 that there's humor there. 145 00:11:51,810 --> 00:11:53,430 Camille Rankine: I mean, I'm over here cracking up. 146 00:11:55,830 --> 00:11:59,580 Omotara James: You know, life is so absurd. You have to laugh. And also 147 00:11:59,580 --> 00:12:04,860 to I did write this before the pandemic. So it felt just a little 148 00:12:04,860 --> 00:12:10,290 bit more fun to speak about an apocalypse before COVID-19. Right. 149 00:12:10,290 --> 00:12:15,570 Yeah. But it was this idea. You know, it was at a time where there 150 00:12:15,570 --> 00:12:18,660 are all these like zombie movies. Yeah, there's all of this, you 151 00:12:18,660 --> 00:12:24,120 know, all of these fantastic apocalypses that were showing, but 152 00:12:24,300 --> 00:12:29,160 I wanted to reclaim that because depending on the life that you 153 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:35,580 lead, and and how you're living and how you're in community, you might 154 00:12:35,580 --> 00:12:38,730 be facing the apocalypse every day, right? Yes, 155 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,150 Camille Rankine: absolutely. Yeah. Like there apocalypse happening for 156 00:12:42,150 --> 00:12:44,280 people all the time. Yeah, all the 157 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:48,660 Omotara James: time, all the time, and in ways that are more obvious 158 00:12:48,690 --> 00:12:53,820 and, and ways that are just smaller and more innocuous. So I just 159 00:12:53,820 --> 00:12:59,940 wanted to take it from high to low from, you know, grand, to mundane. 160 00:13:00,630 --> 00:13:01,110 Yes, 161 00:13:01,110 --> 00:13:03,360 Camille Rankine: I think there is so much grandeur, that even the 162 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:07,680 mundane elements of the poem, like magazines, cigarette sex, they're 163 00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:12,060 cast in this light, like this romantic light, you know, I just 164 00:13:12,060 --> 00:13:15,540 feel like this poem is doing a lot with reframing of language of image 165 00:13:15,780 --> 00:13:19,710 of body. And I, one of the things I love about that kind of casual 166 00:13:19,710 --> 00:13:24,630 cruelty of the voice is how it works to reposition the newness 167 00:13:24,870 --> 00:13:27,540 into something sort of withering and sad, you know? 168 00:13:28,590 --> 00:13:34,260 Omotara James: It's important to subvert tropes. Yeah, um, and it's 169 00:13:34,260 --> 00:13:41,790 really interesting. During this time of social media, body 170 00:13:41,790 --> 00:13:48,390 positivity, fat liberation, I feel that times couldn't really be more 171 00:13:48,390 --> 00:13:54,870 polarizing, the more space that is created socially, for people who 172 00:13:54,870 --> 00:14:03,960 are fat, super fat, infini-fat, the more visceral and vitriol there is 173 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:11,280 around our bodies. So there are these extremities and the idea of 174 00:14:11,370 --> 00:14:17,040 seeing a speaker, just walk through them just cut through them with 175 00:14:17,070 --> 00:14:23,850 such, you know, poise and sense of self and being so casual about it. 176 00:14:23,850 --> 00:14:29,220 Yeah, that was very attractive to me to see a speaker, a fat speaker, 177 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:34,590 framing the narrative, and not just solely being the subject of the 178 00:14:34,590 --> 00:14:37,140 narrative. Felt very important. Yeah, 179 00:14:37,170 --> 00:14:39,480 Camille Rankine: yeah, I think that comes across. And another thing 180 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:44,580 that I really enjoy thinking about that turn of power, and grace is 181 00:14:44,580 --> 00:14:50,250 that last line, the entrance of the word, lovelies, can you talk about 182 00:14:50,250 --> 00:14:53,520 that? Like how you arrived at that moment of address? 183 00:14:54,060 --> 00:14:57,390 Omotara James: So while I was writing this poem, I was also 184 00:14:57,390 --> 00:15:06,180 thinking a lot about how I could condense, like the last few minutes 185 00:15:06,570 --> 00:15:15,660 of someone's entire life, and how to create that heightened sense of 186 00:15:15,930 --> 00:15:23,670 time. And in doing so, I thought, you know, when no one knows how 187 00:15:23,670 --> 00:15:27,900 they're going to go out, right, no one knows when their last day is 188 00:15:27,900 --> 00:15:35,520 going to be. And so I just thought the poem began in beauty and is 189 00:15:35,550 --> 00:15:40,020 ending in death. And also through that death. There is another beauty 190 00:15:40,020 --> 00:15:44,070 being born. So we're beginning in beauty, and we're ending in beauty, 191 00:15:44,070 --> 00:15:48,600 but not in the same place. Right? Yeah. So it just felt really 192 00:15:48,630 --> 00:15:57,660 important to make sure that there are some love for those who are 193 00:15:57,660 --> 00:16:01,860 left last at the end of the poem. 194 00:16:02,370 --> 00:16:05,160 Camille Rankine: And there's also something really hopeful, I think, 195 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,970 when we think about, like, how many apocalypses we live through and a 196 00:16:08,970 --> 00:16:12,630 lot of people live through of taking that moment and spinning it 197 00:16:12,630 --> 00:16:15,870 around a little bit and thinking about what can we build? What can 198 00:16:15,870 --> 00:16:20,700 we gain? What how can we be freer? Yeah, I think there's something 199 00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:22,830 hopeful about it, even though it's about the end of the world. 200 00:16:23,250 --> 00:16:25,980 Omotara James: Yeah. And that's why I wrote it in couplets. 201 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,650 Camille Rankine: I was gonna ask about that. I love a couplet talk 202 00:16:28,650 --> 00:16:29,370 to me about that. 203 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,660 Omotara James: couplet. You know, it feels like when you're writing a 204 00:16:33,660 --> 00:16:38,010 couplet, you're beginning somewhere and you're ending somewhere. It's 205 00:16:38,010 --> 00:16:39,660 like two hands holding. Yeah. 206 00:16:40,110 --> 00:16:42,300 Camille Rankine: I always say that. It's like hand in hand skipping 207 00:16:42,300 --> 00:16:44,550 down the street. You know, I was just about to say that, 208 00:16:44,550 --> 00:16:47,790 Omotara James: Oh, my goodness, Camille, you get me. 209 00:16:48,570 --> 00:16:53,490 Here. We're here together in this. Yes. Oh, my goodness. Never felt so 210 00:16:53,490 --> 00:16:59,550 seen. Yes. The Sisterhood. So yes. So there's this feeling of when I 211 00:16:59,550 --> 00:17:04,650 see couplets together, it's like, oh, okay, we're merely going along 212 00:17:04,650 --> 00:17:10,110 this poem. Right. So there's that lightness and that levity in terms 213 00:17:10,110 --> 00:17:14,700 of how it looks so kind of unassuming. But also, what this 214 00:17:14,700 --> 00:17:17,430 poem is saying is, death is coming, death is coming, death is coming, 215 00:17:17,430 --> 00:17:22,230 death is coming. And we're going to be okay, for like, a few minutes. 216 00:17:22,290 --> 00:17:25,470 After all the thin people perish. It's gonna be good for a few minutes. 217 00:17:25,500 --> 00:17:29,370 And that's gonna be good. And also, you know, when you go back to the 218 00:17:29,370 --> 00:17:34,230 title of the poem, The first part is after The Last Calorie of the 219 00:17:34,230 --> 00:17:38,730 Apocalypse, right. But the second part is Prayer for the Clinically 220 00:17:38,730 --> 00:17:44,130 Obese, and that word obese and obesity, especially in the within 221 00:17:44,130 --> 00:17:48,870 the culture and context of fat liberation. That is, you know, very 222 00:17:48,870 --> 00:17:55,500 much a slur because it is a word that is highly loaded, that's 223 00:17:55,650 --> 00:18:00,720 always used really pejoratively. There's there's no place where it's 224 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:06,120 not used pejoratively. It's built into the word, especially when it's 225 00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:11,700 used clinically and those clinical spaces, those medical spaces, 226 00:18:11,820 --> 00:18:17,250 people who are fat are most vulnerable. And also the least 227 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:23,340 seen. We're not taken seriously. And that's why we don't enter those 228 00:18:23,340 --> 00:18:28,440 spaces. As much as thinner people, people living in thinner bodies 229 00:18:28,590 --> 00:18:31,860 would enter those spaces. Because there's more freedom there. 230 00:18:32,519 --> 00:18:34,319 Camille Rankine: I was thinking about that inclusion of the 231 00:18:34,319 --> 00:18:37,829 Prayer for the Clinically Obese in the title. Just the coldness of that 232 00:18:37,829 --> 00:18:42,329 word, the accusation of it, and how the whole poem seems to sort of 233 00:18:42,719 --> 00:18:47,039 just laugh in its face almost sort of just it pushes right back 234 00:18:47,039 --> 00:18:53,639 against that. And seems to me, like just take the control away from 235 00:18:53,639 --> 00:18:58,499 that designation and control that story and that narrative. It just 236 00:18:58,499 --> 00:19:02,639 creates such an interesting tension to me, that really informs the way 237 00:19:02,639 --> 00:19:05,879 that I understand and feel the impact of the poem itself. 238 00:19:07,349 --> 00:19:11,639 Omotara James: I mean, certainly, this is a fuck you poem. Oh, yeah. 239 00:19:11,639 --> 00:19:18,299 I mean, there's there's no way around that. It's a poem that says my 240 00:19:18,329 --> 00:19:22,889 personhood is going to be asserted, whether you like it or not, and I 241 00:19:22,889 --> 00:19:25,799 actually prefer that you don't like that would bring me pleasure. 242 00:19:25,799 --> 00:19:28,169 Camille Rankine: You don't need to like, yeah, yeah, 243 00:19:28,169 --> 00:19:31,709 right. I think that's what is so delicious about the poem that, you 244 00:19:31,709 --> 00:19:37,109 know, that sense of facing that title and pushing back and laughing 245 00:19:37,109 --> 00:19:40,019 at that title and saying, I'm I'm actually not, I'm not going about 246 00:19:40,019 --> 00:19:44,429 to take that on myself. Good luck. Good luck to you. No, I yeah, I 247 00:19:44,429 --> 00:19:45,869 think that's, that's glorious. 248 00:19:46,409 --> 00:19:47,369 Omotara James: Thank you. 249 00:19:47,459 --> 00:19:50,489 Camille Rankine: Thank you. And I think this is a good time to take a 250 00:19:50,489 --> 00:19:51,869 little break. Okay. 251 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:06,960 Cathy & Peter Halstead: We hope you're enjoying The Glimpse. It's 252 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,950 just one small part of the Adrian Brinkerhoff Poetry Foundation. 253 00:20:11,070 --> 00:20:15,090 Unknown: We're the founders Peter and Cathy Halstead. Our 254 00:20:15,089 --> 00:20:18,029 Cathy & Peter Halstead: goal is to make poetry more accessible to 255 00:20:18,029 --> 00:20:22,199 everyone. And we do that in a variety of ways. Through 256 00:20:22,199 --> 00:20:27,389 partnerships, our film series, this podcast, and our website 257 00:20:27,389 --> 00:20:29,399 Brinkerhoff poetry.org. 258 00:20:29,730 --> 00:20:34,140 Unknown: We hope these works will lure you into a parallel universe. 259 00:20:34,500 --> 00:20:38,400 The way a Möbius strip brings you into another dimension without 260 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:46,680 leaving the page you're on. Thanks for listening. Okay, 261 00:20:46,710 --> 00:20:50,970 Camille Rankine: welcome back. So we are going to hear a poem that 262 00:20:50,970 --> 00:20:51,930 has inspired you. 263 00:20:52,830 --> 00:20:59,190 Omotara James: The name of the poem is Tiara by Mark Doty from his 264 00:20:59,580 --> 00:21:08,460 collection, Bethlehem in Broad Daylight. Tiara. Peter died in a 265 00:21:08,460 --> 00:21:15,420 paper tiara cut from a book of princess paper dolls. He loved 266 00:21:15,510 --> 00:21:23,460 royalty, sashes and jewels. I don't know. He said, when he woke in 267 00:21:23,460 --> 00:21:27,690 the hospice. I was watching the Betty Davis Film Festival on 268 00:21:27,690 --> 00:21:35,370 channel 57 and then— At the wake, the tension broke when someone 269 00:21:35,460 --> 00:21:41,250 guessed the casket closed because he was in there and a big wig and 270 00:21:41,250 --> 00:21:47,250 heels, and someone said, you know he's always late. He probably isn't 271 00:21:47,250 --> 00:21:54,000 here yet. He's still fixing his makeup. And someone said he asked 272 00:21:54,000 --> 00:22:01,980 for it. asked for it. When all he did was go down into the salt tide 273 00:22:02,130 --> 00:22:08,730 of wanting as much as he wanted, giving himself over so drunk or 274 00:22:08,730 --> 00:22:14,760 stoned. It almost didn't matter who, though they were beautiful, 275 00:22:15,150 --> 00:22:23,130 stampeding into him in the simple lavishing music of their hurry. I 276 00:22:23,130 --> 00:22:30,030 think heaven is perfect stasis poised over the realms of desire. 277 00:22:30,930 --> 00:22:36,810 Where dreaming and waking men lie on the grass, while wet horses 278 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:44,910 roam among them huge fragments of the music we die into in the body's 279 00:22:44,940 --> 00:22:52,890 paradise. Sometimes we wake not knowing how we came to lie here, 280 00:22:53,100 --> 00:22:59,880 or who has crowned us with these temporary precious stones. And 281 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:06,480 given the world's perfectly turned shoulders, the deep hollows blued 282 00:23:06,540 --> 00:23:12,660 by longing, given the irreplaceable silk of horses, rippling in 283 00:23:12,690 --> 00:23:19,650 orchards, fruit thundering and chiming down, given the ordinary 284 00:23:19,650 --> 00:23:27,540 marvels of form and gravity. What could he do? What could any of us 285 00:23:27,690 --> 00:23:35,160 ever do? But ask for it? 286 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,660 Camille Rankine: Talk about a fuck You poem. You know? 287 00:23:39,660 --> 00:23:43,260 I love this. I think I just want to wrap myself in this poem. But 288 00:23:43,260 --> 00:23:47,250 before I do that, what what about this poem draws you to it. 289 00:23:47,970 --> 00:23:55,710 Omotara James: You know, this was one of the first poems I read in a 290 00:23:55,710 --> 00:24:03,510 college class of contemporary poets. And at the time, I was 291 00:24:03,510 --> 00:24:08,940 really struggling to find my own voice. I knew I had things I wanted 292 00:24:08,940 --> 00:24:13,560 to say, things that were simmering things that I couldn't articulate, 293 00:24:13,770 --> 00:24:19,350 but I didn't know how to say them. I didn't know anything about 294 00:24:19,350 --> 00:24:26,250 registers in poetry, tone shifts, any of that. And when I came 295 00:24:26,250 --> 00:24:33,480 across this poem, for the first time, I just completely lost it. I 296 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:39,510 just, it was a release. It felt like a godsend. It felt like this 297 00:24:39,510 --> 00:24:49,710 poem was a complete whole and holy rebuke, of being too much. And what 298 00:24:49,710 --> 00:24:55,980 I loved about this poem was its tenderness. Its tenderness, and the 299 00:24:55,980 --> 00:25:03,360 fact that the speaker had so much love For the subject. Yes, yes, I 300 00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:08,010 also felt like I knew Peter, a little bit, even though that's 301 00:25:08,010 --> 00:25:12,360 ridiculous. But, you know, in some ways, we all have a Peter or are the 302 00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:19,980 Peter, you know, in our own lives. Flamboyant, fun, 303 00:25:19,980 --> 00:25:27,960 carefree, deeply connected to pleasure, to appetite, to beauty. And 304 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:34,050 so those through lines of connecting appetite, pleasure 305 00:25:34,380 --> 00:25:44,100 experience to beauty to the sublime that I felt was a restoration, it 306 00:25:44,100 --> 00:25:49,110 gave me back something that I felt I was losing on a daily basis. 307 00:25:49,559 --> 00:25:52,049 Camille Rankine: I love that all he did was go down and have a salt 308 00:25:52,049 --> 00:25:55,559 tight of wanting as much as he wanted." And now that that we just 309 00:25:55,559 --> 00:25:59,579 tumbled from that. I feel like we're falling and we fall into 310 00:25:59,579 --> 00:26:01,259 heaven in that moment. And yes, 311 00:26:01,350 --> 00:26:05,460 Omotara James: you do tumble into heaven. And what is taking us there 312 00:26:05,670 --> 00:26:12,660 is Peter's love of life. Yeah, you know. So in many ways, the subject 313 00:26:12,660 --> 00:26:17,970 is being reanimated through our connection to that beautiful, 314 00:26:17,970 --> 00:26:23,370 ravishing music to these luscious images to these gorgeous fragments. 315 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:29,550 Yes. And Doty is so good at also making us complicit in Peter's 316 00:26:29,580 --> 00:26:34,590 pleasure. Absolutely. Because we're feeling the pleasure, oh, we don't 317 00:26:34,590 --> 00:26:38,130 want it to stop. We don't want these tercets to end and by the time 318 00:26:38,130 --> 00:26:43,200 I got to the end, I was upset that it was ending, I wanted to reread 319 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:49,140 it again. And again. And again. And so it's creating that desire 320 00:26:49,170 --> 00:26:55,770 for for excess, and pleasure. And the craft is so well and 321 00:26:55,770 --> 00:26:56,700 intentional. 322 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,320 Camille Rankine: He takes us so deep into it, that you completely 323 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,850 are in a position of embodying that like experience that Peter was 324 00:27:05,850 --> 00:27:08,880 having where you're like, I want more, I don't want this to end I want 325 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,360 to be in this space. And you feel like you are, like you said 326 00:27:12,360 --> 00:27:13,950 complicit in that in that desire, 327 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,870 Omotara James: and also complicit in the love that the speaker has 328 00:27:18,870 --> 00:27:23,310 for the subject, the love that the speaker has for Peter, that you 329 00:27:23,310 --> 00:27:30,540 couldn't but adore him. And whereas this poem kind of opens up, you 330 00:27:30,540 --> 00:27:36,030 know, into heaven, I wanted like my apocalypse poem, to kind of begin 331 00:27:36,060 --> 00:27:40,620 in a heaven, and then zoom out and come back down to earth. 332 00:27:41,099 --> 00:27:43,409 Camille Rankine: And I think each poem is saying, you know, hold on, 333 00:27:43,409 --> 00:27:48,509 and also, it's showing us like, you're saying, like, we make a 334 00:27:48,509 --> 00:27:52,259 heaven of hell, we make a hell of heaven. It's showing us in a way 335 00:27:52,259 --> 00:27:55,199 that this doesn't have to be the way that we see it, there is 336 00:27:55,199 --> 00:27:59,189 something else, there's another way of understanding and entering into 337 00:27:59,189 --> 00:28:03,629 the reality of this person to think differently, and see differently 338 00:28:03,629 --> 00:28:07,229 and understand our role, our control our you know, what power we 339 00:28:07,229 --> 00:28:11,489 have, and how we understand each other, right do to each other. 340 00:28:11,700 --> 00:28:13,830 Omotara James: I mean, because ultimately, you know, as far as I'm 341 00:28:13,830 --> 00:28:19,320 concerned, that's the role of the poem. It's not just to, you know, 342 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:28,860 virtue signal or whatever, but it's to really try to interrogate what 343 00:28:28,860 --> 00:28:33,150 it is that the reader believes, and what their position and 344 00:28:33,150 --> 00:28:40,440 positionality is, to the content, right? And what I try to do in all 345 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:46,110 of my poems, and what I love about this Doty poem is that even though 346 00:28:46,380 --> 00:28:54,090 the speakers of both poems are speaking back to the spectacle of 347 00:28:54,270 --> 00:29:00,030 an the specter of hatred, they're also both not performing. No, my 348 00:29:00,030 --> 00:29:05,670 poem is not performing fatness Tiara is not performing gayness, 349 00:29:05,790 --> 00:29:10,650 okay. What it is doing is it's defying, okay, these are defiant 350 00:29:10,650 --> 00:29:16,680 poems. So they're defying what your relationship to gayness is, you 351 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,490 know, not saying, oh, you know, this is our gayness, please accept 352 00:29:20,490 --> 00:29:24,810 it. You know, please accept our queerness No, it's saying, Listen, 353 00:29:24,930 --> 00:29:30,030 this is how we live. This is how we love. And wouldn't you be so lucky? 354 00:29:31,170 --> 00:29:36,480 Camille Rankine: Yeah, absolutely. So, thank you for talking to me 355 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,200 about this poem. But I also want to ask you, yeah, what are you up to? 356 00:29:40,260 --> 00:29:42,300 What are you working on right now? I mean, I know you just gave us 357 00:29:42,300 --> 00:29:44,490 this book. So no rush. 358 00:29:45,510 --> 00:29:49,410 Omotara James: Well, yeah, I gave the book and the book is still 359 00:29:49,410 --> 00:29:52,560 giving. It's still giving. It's still giving because I 360 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:57,780 am working on the audio book. I'm very excited to be recording. 361 00:29:57,780 --> 00:29:58,710 That's great. 362 00:29:58,709 --> 00:30:00,539 Camille Rankine: That's good. I'm happy for people. get to listen to 363 00:30:00,539 --> 00:30:02,879 you read this book, because it's great to listen to hear it read 364 00:30:02,879 --> 00:30:03,569 your poems. 365 00:30:04,259 --> 00:30:08,669 Omotara James: I mean, not to toot my own horn, but when you hear a 366 00:30:08,669 --> 00:30:14,249 poem in the voice of the speaker, that's another kind of experience 367 00:30:14,249 --> 00:30:19,679 and, and translation. And so the intimacy is just heightened. So 368 00:30:19,679 --> 00:30:22,829 that's what I love about the audiobook. And of course, I'm 369 00:30:22,829 --> 00:30:27,539 always writing poems, and I'm working on a children's book. 370 00:30:27,839 --> 00:30:31,559 Camille Rankine: Ah, oh my gosh, for the children. Everybody's 371 00:30:31,559 --> 00:30:33,239 lucky. I'm excited about that. 372 00:30:33,689 --> 00:30:37,319 Omotara James: Yeah, very cool. Yeah, I'm really excited. What age 373 00:30:37,319 --> 00:30:43,049 group like 10 Eight and under, you know? Yeah, it's 374 00:30:43,050 --> 00:30:44,280 Camille Rankine: exciting. It is 375 00:30:44,279 --> 00:30:45,209 Omotara James: exciting. 376 00:30:45,810 --> 00:30:47,580 Camille Rankine: It's so great to talk to you about these poems. 377 00:30:48,210 --> 00:30:49,830 Thank you so much. It's been a joy. 378 00:30:49,859 --> 00:30:51,059 Omotara James: Thank you, Camille. 379 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,900 Camille Rankine: Thanks for joining us today. I'm your host Camille 380 00:31:00,900 --> 00:31:06,150 Rankine. Omatara's poem After the Last Calorie of the Apocalypse 381 00:31:06,180 --> 00:31:09,300 Prayer for the Clinically Obese appears in her debut poetry 382 00:31:09,300 --> 00:31:13,320 collection Song of my Softening, published in 2024, and aired with 383 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:19,140 permission from Alice James books. Mark Doty's poem Tiara is from the 384 00:31:19,140 --> 00:31:23,490 book Paragon Park, Turtle Swan, Bethlehem in Broad Daylight and 385 00:31:23,490 --> 00:31:28,020 Early Poems, copyright 2012. It was used with permission from Yhe 386 00:31:28,020 --> 00:31:31,830 Permissions Company LLC on behalf of David R. Godine Publisher Inc. 387 00:31:34,650 --> 00:31:37,770 And that's it for this season of The Glimpse. It's been a pleasure 388 00:31:37,770 --> 00:31:40,620 to be in conversation with these writers and their words, and to 389 00:31:40,620 --> 00:31:44,490 share the conversation with you. I hope you'll keep going keep reading 390 00:31:44,490 --> 00:31:47,490 poems and join us for the next season of The Glimpse which will 391 00:31:47,490 --> 00:31:52,350 focus on Irish poets. Make sure to like and subscribe to The Glimpse 392 00:31:52,380 --> 00:31:56,580 wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find episodes on our 393 00:31:56,580 --> 00:32:00,810 website Brinkerhoff poetry.org. If you have any questions or comments, 394 00:32:00,810 --> 00:32:05,010 please drop us an email at The Glimpse poetry podcast@gmail.com. 395 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,700 The Glimpse is a production of the Adrian Brinkerhoff Poetry 396 00:32:08,700 --> 00:32:13,080 Foundation. I'm your host Camille Rankine. Our senior producer is 397 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,140 Jennifer Wolfe Kat Yore is our technical director and mixing 398 00:32:16,140 --> 00:32:19,740 engineer. Editorial Director Amanda Glassman is our curator and 399 00:32:19,740 --> 00:32:23,130 production coordinator. Amy Holmes is the foundation's Executive 400 00:32:23,130 --> 00:32:27,000 Director and our co founders are Cathy and Peter Halstead. Thanks 401 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:27,630 for listening