1
00:00:02,580 --> 00:00:03,330
Unknown: The Glimpse.

2
00:00:05,520 --> 00:00:08,160
John Murillo: I love that word
reckoning. I think it's so

3
00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:12,270
appropriate. I kind of shy away from
you know, big words like like justice

4
00:00:12,270 --> 00:00:15,600
and things like that. But I think you
know, reckoning there is a lot of that

5
00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:16,230
happening.

6
00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,660
Camille Rankine: Welcome to The
Glimpse. I'm your host Camille Rankine

7
00:00:22,650 --> 00:00:26,700
John Murillo doesn't shy away from
reckoning. John is a poet and a

8
00:00:26,700 --> 00:00:31,050
teacher, and has received fellowships
from the NEA, Cave Canem, and the New

9
00:00:31,050 --> 00:00:35,670
York Foundation for the Arts, among
many others. His debut collection "Up

10
00:00:35,670 --> 00:00:39,420
Jump the Boogie was a finalist for
several awards, and his highly

11
00:00:39,420 --> 00:00:43,410
anticipated follow-up collection was
released in 2020. John Murillo is our

12
00:00:43,410 --> 00:00:51,480
guest today on The Glimpse. Reading
John Murillo's most recent book,

13
00:00:51,480 --> 00:00:56,490
Kontemporary Amerikan Poetry, I found
myself suspended, or maybe entangled

14
00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:00,690
in this complex emotional web. The
work is threaded through with

15
00:01:00,690 --> 00:01:04,740
considerations of rage, violence and
anguish and the forces that create

16
00:01:04,740 --> 00:01:08,820
them. But at the same time, there's a
delicacy to the poems and a tight

17
00:01:08,820 --> 00:01:14,460
control. I felt as if the poems took
this question, "What are men capable

18
00:01:14,460 --> 00:01:19,740
of?" and held it up to light, examined
it under glass through a skillful

19
00:01:19,770 --> 00:01:24,090
musical lyricism. Welcome, John.
Thanks for talking with us today.

20
00:01:24,540 --> 00:01:25,290
John Murillo: Thanks for having me.

21
00:01:25,890 --> 00:01:28,830
Camille Rankine: So I wanted to ask
you about that title. Kontemporary

22
00:01:28,830 --> 00:01:33,330
Amerikan Poetry. Is this book, that
sort of statement on poetics for you?

23
00:01:34,620 --> 00:01:37,650
John Murillo: In a way, in a way it
is, you know, there were 10 years

24
00:01:37,650 --> 00:01:42,090
between books, and I had a chance to
kind of sit off to the side and

25
00:01:42,090 --> 00:01:45,840
watch, you know, people writing their
books and promoting their books and

26
00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:50,220
all this and that. And I think one of
the things I was trying to do with

27
00:01:50,220 --> 00:01:55,830
the book is to just bring something
honest back that I thought was

28
00:01:55,830 --> 00:01:58,950
lacking, I thought a lot of what I
was seeing and reading, seeing the

29
00:01:58,950 --> 00:02:05,010
performative in many ways, and so it
is kind of a critique of, and me just

30
00:02:05,010 --> 00:02:09,990
kind of trolling in some ways. But
also, if that makes any sense, and

31
00:02:09,990 --> 00:02:13,110
also trying to be as authentic as
possible at the same time. Yeah,

32
00:02:13,140 --> 00:02:17,010
Camille Rankine: That's funny. I, I
love that use the word trolling. I

33
00:02:17,010 --> 00:02:21,030
did feel reading the book so many
times. I was like, what are 

34
00:02:21,030 --> 00:02:25,830
you up to? Like, there was a
little bit of a wink? I thought in

35
00:02:25,830 --> 00:02:26,700
some of the approaches.

36
00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,270
John Murillo: Exactly. Well, I am
trolling myself too you know? It's

37
00:02:30,270 --> 00:02:34,410
like that. And I think that's really
more than anything in those poems.

38
00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:38,580
What I'm trying to get at it's, it's
kind of a self check. Right?

39
00:02:38,700 --> 00:02:41,700
Camille Rankine: Yeah, definitely.
That that self check, I think is so

40
00:02:41,700 --> 00:02:46,290
present throughout the book. And one
of the things that I feel like, was

41
00:02:46,290 --> 00:02:49,800
just continually complicating the
poems I was reading, and I just

42
00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:54,810
really loved that element of it so
much. So speaking of, I would love

43
00:02:54,810 --> 00:02:59,220
for you to read one of the poems from
the book if you would oblige us.

44
00:02:59,669 --> 00:03:03,269
John Murillo: Absolutely. Great. And
I think I'm reading "On

45
00:03:03,269 --> 00:03:09,329
Confessionalism" That's the one yes.
Okay. All right. Not sleepwalking.

46
00:03:10,169 --> 00:03:17,729
But waking still, with my hand on a
gun, and the gun in a mouth and the

47
00:03:17,729 --> 00:03:26,369
mouth on the face of a man on his
knees. Autumn of '89 and I'm standing

48
00:03:26,369 --> 00:03:32,669
in a section eight apartment parking
lot pistol cocked, and staring down

49
00:03:32,669 --> 00:03:38,099
at this man, then up into the mug of
an old woman staring, watering the

50
00:03:38,099 --> 00:03:44,699
single sad flower to the left of her
stoop. The flower also staring. My

51
00:03:44,699 --> 00:03:49,229
engine idling behind me, a slow
moaning bassline and the bark of a

52
00:03:49,229 --> 00:03:56,939
dead rapper nudging me on. All to say,
someone's brokenhearted. And this man

53
00:03:56,969 --> 00:04:03,389
with the gun in his mouth, this man
who like me is really little more

54
00:04:03,419 --> 00:04:09,449
than a boy may or may not have
something to do with it. May or may

55
00:04:09,449 --> 00:04:15,869
not have said a thing or two,
betrayed a secret, say, that walked my

56
00:04:15,869 --> 00:04:26,309
love away. And why not say it: She
adored me. And I, her. More than anyone,

57
00:04:26,759 --> 00:04:32,759
anything in life, up to then, and then
still, for two decades after. And,

58
00:04:32,789 --> 00:04:38,819
therefore, went for broke. Blacked out
and woke having gutted my piggy and

59
00:04:38,819 --> 00:04:45,809
pawned all my gold to buy what a
homeboy said was a Beretta. Blacked

60
00:04:45,809 --> 00:04:52,289
out and woke, my hand on a gun, the
gun in a mouth, a man who was really

61
00:04:52,289 --> 00:04:59,489
a boy on his knees. And because I
loved the girl, I actually paused

62
00:04:59,579 --> 00:05:07,559
before I pulled the trigger—once,
twice, three times—then panicked not

63
00:05:07,559 --> 00:05:14,999
just because the gun jammed, but
because what if it hadn't, because

64
00:05:15,029 --> 00:05:21,809
who did I almost become, there, that
afternoon, in a Section 8

65
00:05:21,869 --> 00:05:29,789
apartment parking lot, pistol cocked,
with the sad flower staring, because

66
00:05:29,789 --> 00:05:35,099
I knew the girl I loved, no matter
how this all played out, would never

67
00:05:35,099 --> 00:05:42,269
have me back. Day of damaged
ammo, or grime that clogged the

68
00:05:42,269 --> 00:05:50,609
chamber. Day of faulty rods or
springs come loose in my fist. Day

69
00:05:51,179 --> 00:06:00,089
nobody died, So why not hallelujah?
Say amen or Thank you. My mother

70
00:06:00,119 --> 00:06:07,649
sang for years of God, babes and
fools. My father, lymph node masses

71
00:06:07,679 --> 00:06:14,189
fading from his x-rays, said surviving
one thing means another comes and

72
00:06:14,189 --> 00:06:23,729
kills you. He's dead, and so I trust
him. Dead. And so I'd wonder years

73
00:06:23,819 --> 00:06:33,239
about the work I left undone—boy on
his knees a man now risen,and likely

74
00:06:33,269 --> 00:06:40,469
plotting his long way back to me.
Fuck it. I tucked my tool like the movie

75
00:06:40,499 --> 00:06:47,969
gangsters do and jumped back in my
bucket. Cold enough day to make a

76
00:06:47,969 --> 00:06:54,299
young man weep, afternoon when
everything, or nothing, changed

77
00:06:54,299 --> 00:07:01,499
forever. The dead rapper grunted, the
baseline faded, my spirits whispered

78
00:07:01,529 --> 00:07:08,939
something from the trees. I left, then
lost the pistol in a storm drain

79
00:07:09,389 --> 00:07:18,119
somewhere between that life and this.
Left the pistol in a storm drain, but

80
00:07:18,119 --> 00:07:22,499
never got around to wiping away the
prints.

81
00:07:23,970 --> 00:07:25,410
Camille Rankine: Thank you so much
for that.

82
00:07:25,740 --> 00:07:26,310
John Murillo: Thank you.

83
00:07:26,790 --> 00:07:32,100
Camille Rankine: I love that poem.
And it's a long one. It's like

84
00:07:32,550 --> 00:07:35,880
it really sustains your interest
and pulls you along.

85
00:07:36,930 --> 00:07:38,850
John Murillo: When I'm giving
readings, like that's the thing where

86
00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,360
I feel bad for the listeners often
because I write really long poems.

87
00:07:42,810 --> 00:07:46,020
And I'm just, you know, hoping that
they're paying attention and staying

88
00:07:46,020 --> 00:07:47,850
with me the whole time, because you 
never know.

89
00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:52,110
Camille Rankine: I want to ask you
about the title On Confessionalism.

90
00:07:52,980 --> 00:07:56,490
Like why did you choose that title?
And? And are you making an argument

91
00:07:56,490 --> 00:07:58,110
about confessionalism here?

92
00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,920
John Murillo: Yeah, I don't know that
I'm consciously making an argument.

93
00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,810
So one of the things that I was
trying to do in the book, at least

94
00:08:06,810 --> 00:08:13,860
for myself, really was to think about
this space between our, our lived

95
00:08:13,860 --> 00:08:19,950
lives and the lives that we show
others or rather, our true selves and

96
00:08:19,950 --> 00:08:25,020
our performed selves, right. And
also the way we perform self to self,

97
00:08:25,260 --> 00:08:30,660
right? And the way memory changes
over time. So I'm confessing

98
00:08:30,660 --> 00:08:35,310
something in that poem. But also what
I'm doing is just playing with memory

99
00:08:35,310 --> 00:08:37,290
and fiction in a way we fictionalized
memory.

100
00:08:38,999 --> 00:08:40,949
Camille Rankine: I mean, I think
there's some things that you don't

101
00:08:40,949 --> 00:08:45,119
want to admit to yourself, even when
you're confessing, you know, that's

102
00:08:45,119 --> 00:08:48,029
something that it's maybe one of the
biggest challenges is there's things

103
00:08:48,029 --> 00:08:51,299
that you don't want to open that door
even to yourself. So to do it in a

104
00:08:51,299 --> 00:08:54,269
confession feels impossible. I feel
like that's, that's something that

105
00:08:54,299 --> 00:08:56,399
must be occurring as for people as
well.

106
00:08:56,639 --> 00:08:59,699
John Murillo: Yeah. All the time, all
the time. 

107
00:08:59,730 --> 00:09:01,800
Camille Rankine: So this is the first
poem in the book, can you talk about,

108
00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,230
like why you made the choice to start
here?

109
00:09:05,519 --> 00:09:10,049
John Murillo: I didn't want the poems
about violence, or let's say police

110
00:09:10,049 --> 00:09:17,909
or state sanctioned violence, to take
up too much psychic territory, right?

111
00:09:18,299 --> 00:09:23,969
I wanted it to still be in
conversation with or rather, how do I

112
00:09:23,969 --> 00:09:31,619
say about the violences we cause 
one another, and self. So the first

113
00:09:31,619 --> 00:09:35,039
poem that one that I just read, it
has to do with violence, but it's

114
00:09:35,189 --> 00:09:41,249
more of an interpersonal violence.
And I think it helps to set up a

115
00:09:41,249 --> 00:09:47,069
voice that I think is really speaking
throughout the rest of the poems and

116
00:09:47,099 --> 00:09:49,829
serves as a touchstone. I think that
if I would have started with another

117
00:09:49,829 --> 00:09:54,719
poem, it would have framed the book
differently. And

118
00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:56,790
Camille Rankine: I thought the ending
was really interesting too the way

119
00:09:56,790 --> 00:10:00,840
that we have this ending where the
prints are still on the gun and that's 

120
00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:06,600
the image that's kind of where we exit
the poem. And it feels like sort of

121
00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:13,890
this acknowledgment that there's a
chance for this to reverberate still,

122
00:10:13,890 --> 00:10:17,400
like this event doesn't is not
closed, it's not kind of over,

123
00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:21,000
there's still this sort of dangling.
And

124
00:10:21,660 --> 00:10:24,180
John Murillo: it's the the prints
that are left on the gun, but also

125
00:10:24,180 --> 00:10:28,440
the prints in terms of the impression
that is left on the speaker. Right.

126
00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:33,300
So the speaker is always looking over
their shoulder, you know, throughout

127
00:10:33,300 --> 00:10:34,200
the rest of their life.

128
00:10:35,100 --> 00:10:38,580
Camille Rankine: I think that's the
impression, it leaves you with that

129
00:10:38,580 --> 00:10:45,420
sense that this can still come back
to you. It's not a closed door. I

130
00:10:45,420 --> 00:10:49,530
think in part because there's a sense
of that the reckoning with the event,

131
00:10:50,070 --> 00:10:53,490
and it's continuous in the poem, the
way we see that revision and, and

132
00:10:53,490 --> 00:10:56,970
reframing and re-understanding
that reckoning continues kind of

133
00:10:56,970 --> 00:10:57,420
throughout.

134
00:10:58,139 --> 00:11:00,809
John Murillo: I love that word
reckoning. I think it's so

135
00:11:00,809 --> 00:11:06,509
appropriate. I kind of shy away from,
you know, big words like, like

136
00:11:06,509 --> 00:11:10,409
justice and things like that. But I
think, you know, reckoning is a lot

137
00:11:10,409 --> 00:11:13,349
of that happening and has been
happening for the last several years.

138
00:11:13,859 --> 00:11:21,449
You know. And, and maybe this is why
so many of us are inauthentic with

139
00:11:21,899 --> 00:11:26,129
the selves that we create, is that
where we're kind of flinching at the

140
00:11:26,129 --> 00:11:27,149
idea of that reckoning

141
00:11:28,079 --> 00:11:30,629
Camille Rankine: one of the things I
was thinking about with this poem in

142
00:11:30,629 --> 00:11:34,619
the book as a whole was, there's a
lot of exploration of violence and

143
00:11:34,619 --> 00:11:39,959
anger, and kind of their entanglement
with masculinity as well, which I

144
00:11:39,959 --> 00:11:43,139
think is really fraught thing for
black and brown people and black

145
00:11:43,139 --> 00:11:45,989
brown men. And I wonder, like, is
that something that you were

146
00:11:45,989 --> 00:11:48,899
consciously navigating as you as you
made these poems?

147
00:11:50,159 --> 00:11:55,289
John Murillo: So one of the things
that's, that is important to me, and

148
00:11:55,289 --> 00:11:59,999
I wasn't writing towards this
consciously, are the ways that we've

149
00:11:59,999 --> 00:12:07,859
inherited as black and brown men.
This this idea that, that masculinity

150
00:12:08,639 --> 00:12:13,529
is dependent upon how effective we
can enact violence, on others on

151
00:12:13,529 --> 00:12:19,169
ourselves, right? I think about my
generation, growing up in the 70s and

152
00:12:19,169 --> 00:12:26,549
80s. And the effect of the Vietnam
War had on us in that a lot of our

153
00:12:26,549 --> 00:12:30,599
fathers were sent out to combat and
either did not come back or came back

154
00:12:30,599 --> 00:12:37,829
damaged, and left a whole generation
of us boys teaching each other how to

155
00:12:37,829 --> 00:12:46,349
be men. And a boy's idea of a man is
this kind of cartoonish. Hyper,

156
00:12:46,379 --> 00:12:52,529
violent, masculine brute, right. And
I think a lot of the issues that I

157
00:12:52,529 --> 00:12:58,049
had coming up was what I felt was a
shortcoming. My inability to live up

158
00:12:58,049 --> 00:13:06,179
to a lot of that, and trying to do my
best too So a lot of the things that

159
00:13:06,179 --> 00:13:11,789
I've done in my own life, that have
brought me the most shame, have

160
00:13:12,089 --> 00:13:16,109
really been me, acting out of that
sense of wanting to prove myself to

161
00:13:16,109 --> 00:13:28,799
some abstract judge of what is
masculine, that I too, am a man, 

162
00:13:28,829 --> 00:13:32,339
Camille Rankine: I really liked hearing
your thinking through that. I think

163
00:13:32,339 --> 00:13:36,149
growing up in this country, it's
impossible for violence not to be

164
00:13:36,179 --> 00:13:38,729
kind of touching you and forming you
in some way.

165
00:13:39,630 --> 00:13:42,360
John Murillo: I think you're
absolutely right. And it informs so

166
00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,780
much by how we interact with one
another. And I think one possible

167
00:13:45,780 --> 00:13:49,890
response to that is tenderness and
care. You know, what I want to think

168
00:13:49,890 --> 00:13:52,740
about, like my students, just with,
you know, so many of them are going

169
00:13:52,740 --> 00:13:59,250
through, and the world that they're
inheriting. It just makes me adore

170
00:13:59,250 --> 00:14:02,550
them that much more, you know, and
the same with friends and family

171
00:14:02,550 --> 00:14:10,590
members. You know, it was such a
rough place, that I think, you know,

172
00:14:10,590 --> 00:14:14,490
it really calls for more of that care
more of that tenderness.

173
00:14:15,510 --> 00:14:17,670
Camille Rankine: So thinking about
this poem, I want to ask one more

174
00:14:17,670 --> 00:14:22,530
thing about just like the way that
you utilize music and repetition. And

175
00:14:22,530 --> 00:14:27,090
I wonder if you could talk about
like, how sound plays into the way

176
00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:29,460
you make a poem. Yeah.

177
00:14:32,700 --> 00:14:37,440
John Murillo: I think my, my first
encounter with poetry was with my

178
00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:43,230
ears, not my eyes, you know, I came
to poetry not as a reader at first I

179
00:14:43,230 --> 00:14:49,740
came as a listener and the the poets
I listened to were rappers were MCs

180
00:14:50,370 --> 00:14:55,980
and I came to writing as a rapper. So
for me sound music has always been

181
00:14:55,980 --> 00:14:59,400
really important. And I think you
know, Lawrence Ferlinghetti. He once

182
00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:03,870
said that the press Getting press
ruined poetry. And one of the things

183
00:15:03,870 --> 00:15:07,170
I think he meant by that was that
when we started writing for the page,

184
00:15:07,230 --> 00:15:13,530
a lot of us lost that sense of the
oral and aural pleasures that poetry

185
00:15:13,530 --> 00:15:19,170
can give. And I think that when the
poems are really working when they're

186
00:15:19,170 --> 00:15:24,270
firing on all cylinders, it's part
song part cinema, right? So your

187
00:15:24,270 --> 00:15:28,500
images are working, but also, you
have something that's keeping the

188
00:15:28,500 --> 00:15:33,600
reader or the listener engaged. And
so I think that when the poems are

189
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:38,400
really working well, there's no
separation, right?

190
00:15:39,450 --> 00:15:41,460
Camille Rankine: Oh, I think this is
a good time for a little break.

191
00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,660
The Halsteads: We hope you're enjoying The
Glimpse. It's just one small part of

192
00:15:54,660 --> 00:15:58,920
the Adrian Brinkerhoff Poetry
Foundation. We're the founders Peter

193
00:15:59,100 --> 00:16:04,230
and Cathy Halstead. Our goal is to
make poetry more accessible to

194
00:16:04,230 --> 00:16:09,690
everyone. And we do that in a variety
of ways. Through partnerships, our

195
00:16:09,690 --> 00:16:16,140
film series, this podcast, and our
website, Brinkerhoff poetry.org. We

196
00:16:16,140 --> 00:16:21,570
hope these works will lure you into a
parallel universe. The way a Mobius

197
00:16:21,570 --> 00:16:25,620
strip, brings you into another
dimension without leaving the page

198
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:32,970
you're on. Thanks for listening.


199
00:16:33,300 --> 00:16:36,630
Camille Rankine: OK we're back. So we're
gonna talk about a poem that inspires

200
00:16:36,630 --> 00:16:39,810
you. Can you tell us which poem
you've chosen? Yeah,

201
00:16:39,810 --> 00:16:43,350
John Murillo: so I've chosen this
poem by one of my favorite poets

202
00:16:43,380 --> 00:16:48,750
Etheridge, Knights. Etheridge Knight
is one of my favorite poets. This is

203
00:16:48,750 --> 00:16:53,730
not one of my favorite Etheridge
Knight poems. But there's something

204
00:16:53,730 --> 00:16:56,430
compelling about this. I'll read it
and then I'll talk about it. Yeah.

205
00:16:56,850 --> 00:17:04,920
Okay. Yeah. So the poem is called "Cop
Out Session." I done  shot dope, been

206
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:12,720
to jail, swilled wine, ripped off
sisters, passed bad checks, changed my

207
00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:18,900
name, howled at the moon wrote poems
turned back over flips flipped over

208
00:17:18,900 --> 00:17:25,320
backwards. In other words, I've been
confused, fucked up scared, phony and

209
00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:31,500
jive to a whole lot of people,
haven't you? In one way or another?

210
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:38,940
Anybody else want to cop out? So this
is a short poem, of his but I think

211
00:17:39,540 --> 00:17:44,460
what I find most compelling, he's an
uneven poet, right? So some poems are

212
00:17:44,460 --> 00:17:49,950
way better than others. At his best,
he's really singing. But one of the

213
00:17:49,950 --> 00:17:56,160
things that I love about him, in
addition to his range, is how honest

214
00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,600
he is right? So for your listeners
who may not know Etheridge Knight is

215
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:06,480
a poet who served in the Korean War
In the war he got a shrapnel wound.

216
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:12,660
And because of the shrapnel wound,
developed an addiction to 

217
00:18:12,660 --> 00:18:19,050
opioids, painkillers. Once he was
discharged, he committed a robbery or

218
00:18:19,050 --> 00:18:27,390
burglary, I think, trying to feed his
addiction, and went to prison. And it

219
00:18:27,390 --> 00:18:31,470
was in prison where he started
writing and reading poems. And while

220
00:18:31,470 --> 00:18:35,100
he's in prison, he began
corresponding with other poets,

221
00:18:35,130 --> 00:18:39,480
Gwendolyn Brooks, among them, and you
know, he got out and was one of the,

222
00:18:40,140 --> 00:18:46,440
I think, most important poets in the
tradition. He's known primarily for

223
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:51,750
his prison poems. But he also has
some really beautiful love poems. And

224
00:18:51,750 --> 00:18:57,180
in that poem, particular, I just love
the honesty. He's just putting it all

225
00:18:57,180 --> 00:19:00,300
out there, right? I've done this,
I've done that I'm a piece of shit,

226
00:19:00,330 --> 00:19:03,240
blah, blah, blah, aren't you? Yeah,

227
00:19:03,390 --> 00:19:06,630
Camille Rankine: yeah, it definitely
it has that again, that self critical

228
00:19:06,630 --> 00:19:11,340
gaze. Like we're talking about the
idea of reckoning and how how that

229
00:19:11,340 --> 00:19:15,750
has to be inward as well as outward.
And how people have had a hard time

230
00:19:15,750 --> 00:19:19,170
with that. I mean, understandably.
And I love what you're saying about

231
00:19:19,170 --> 00:19:23,670
that notion of being a good person
and how it's like a posture people

232
00:19:23,670 --> 00:19:27,450
want to adopt, but don't want to
perform.

233
00:19:27,990 --> 00:19:30,480
John Murillo: And even that idea,
right, Camille like the idea of a

234
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:35,370
good person, like what does that even
mean? We're very complex, right? And

235
00:19:35,370 --> 00:19:40,320
the thing that I noticed just in the
course of us living our lives, right,

236
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:44,910
becoming who we are going to be like
you will hurt people. But I think

237
00:19:44,910 --> 00:19:50,430
this idea of when we reduce it to
such a binary --good and bad, or

238
00:19:50,430 --> 00:19:56,070
good and evil, which is really a
juvenile way of looking at things. I

239
00:19:56,070 --> 00:20:00,990
think. We do ourselves a disservice
as humans and also as literally as as

240
00:20:01,020 --> 00:20:01,800
writers,

241
00:20:02,460 --> 00:20:06,840
Camille Rankine: as a writer, I think
it's really important to never exempt

242
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:13,650
yourself from seeing critically and
analytically. And yeah, I like that

243
00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:20,850
this poem. It's both doing that work.
But it also was a confrontation at

244
00:20:20,850 --> 00:20:23,400
the end, like, and you your turn.

245
00:20:24,330 --> 00:20:28,590
John Murillo: Yeah. And so, you know,
you read a poem like that, and you

246
00:20:28,590 --> 00:20:33,600
either take up the challenge or you
or you don't, right. But if you're

247
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:38,190
taking it up, honestly, you know,
there is some risk involved. Right?

248
00:20:38,790 --> 00:20:44,430
You might reveal a self to yourself
that is hard to live with. You may

249
00:20:44,430 --> 00:20:50,370
lose friends, you may lose
institutional support. Right. Yeah.

250
00:20:50,730 --> 00:20:53,160
So you know, that's, that's a real
thing.

251
00:20:54,150 --> 00:20:58,830
Camille Rankine: I'm thinking about
the way this poem moves too. You know,

252
00:20:58,830 --> 00:21:03,060
there's a moment like halfway
through, where he kind of distills

253
00:21:04,650 --> 00:21:10,230
and kind of reframes what everything
above means. In other words, I've

254
00:21:10,230 --> 00:21:14,280
been confused, fucked up, scared,
phony and jive. It's like, another

255
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,220
confession, like another layer of
confession that happens there.

256
00:21:17,820 --> 00:21:21,510
John Murillo: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I think there's something in this

257
00:21:21,510 --> 00:21:24,870
moment it's so vulnerable, so raw,
there's nothing there's no dressing

258
00:21:24,870 --> 00:21:28,800
it up. It's just like, look, this is
what what it is. Yeah. And each of

259
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:33,360
those things, right. When you think
about, again, this self that we

260
00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:40,110
present, how many of us are willing
to say that we've been scared? And

261
00:21:40,110 --> 00:21:41,700
phony? Right.

262
00:21:42,450 --> 00:21:44,640
Camille Rankine: So you said this was
not your favorite Etheridge Knight

263
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:46,290
poem? Do you have a favorite?

264
00:21:47,730 --> 00:21:53,310
John Murillo: Wow. You know? Yeah, I
do actually and I don't know why? Like, 

265
00:21:53,310 --> 00:21:56,220
that's a hard question. Feeling Fucked 
up is my favorite Etheridge Knight.

266
00:21:57,870 --> 00:22:01,170
Camille Rankine: Mine too! I'm obsessed 
With that poem. It's so good

267
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:05,490
John Murillo: That poem, I mean, it's
so good. And I mean, and to me, it's

268
00:22:05,490 --> 00:22:10,020
like when you talk about love poems.
That's it right there.

269
00:22:10,110 --> 00:22:13,950
Camille Rankine: Yeah. So before we
wrap up, I want to ask you what, what

270
00:22:13,950 --> 00:22:17,070
are you working on right now? Do you
have anything in the works?

271
00:22:18,270 --> 00:22:21,240
John Murillo: Oh, man. I've been
scribbling badly for the past couple

272
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:27,090
of years. But I did finish a
collection of translations Rafael 

273
00:22:27,090 --> 00:22:32,220
Alberti, his book "Concerning the
Angels." So I translated that this

274
00:22:32,220 --> 00:22:37,560
past year, and that's coming out in
2025. Nicole and I, we wrapped

275
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:45,030
up the "Dear Yusef" anthology, editing
that that's coming out in 2024. But

276
00:22:45,030 --> 00:22:52,830
as far as the poems I'm kind of
trying to vary my influences,

277
00:22:53,250 --> 00:22:55,920
listening to different music,
watching different films, reading

278
00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:03,450
different poets, and just seeing what
I can glean from them. And just

279
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,470
waiting and seeing how it affects the
writing and just giving myself time.

280
00:23:07,470 --> 00:23:11,340
I hope there's not 10 years between
books two and three.

281
00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:16,620
Camille Rankine: Yeah, well, I'll
give you all the grace. You take your

282
00:23:16,620 --> 00:23:18,180
time you take your time, John, thank
you.

283
00:23:28,350 --> 00:23:33,450
Thanks for joining us today. I'm your
host Camille Rankine. John's poem "On

284
00:23:33,450 --> 00:23:37,200
Confessionalism" from his book.
Kontemporary AmeriKan Poetry was

285
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,550
aired with permission from Four Way
Books. The Etheridge Knight poem Cop

286
00:23:41,550 --> 00:23:45,030
Out Session comes from the book The
Essential Etheridge Knight copyright

287
00:23:45,030 --> 00:23:48,690
1986 Thanks to the University of
Pittsburgh Press for permission to

288
00:23:48,690 --> 00:23:53,400
air it. Coming up next week. Ama 
Code digs into Bluest Nude, and

289
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,390
talks about why Gwendolyn Brooks
shows up in some unlikely places in

290
00:23:57,390 --> 00:24:01,770
her poetry. Make sure to like and
subscribe to The Glimpse wherever you

291
00:24:01,770 --> 00:24:06,600
get your podcasts. You can also find
episodes on our website Brinkerhoff

292
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,920
poetry.org. If you have any questions
or comments, please drop us an email

293
00:24:11,100 --> 00:24:15,720
at The Glimpse poetry
podcast@gmail.com. The Glimpse is a

294
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,780
production of the Adrian
Brinkerhoff Poetry Foundation. I'm

295
00:24:18,780 --> 00:24:23,730
your host Camille Rankine. Our senior
producer is Jennifer Wolfe, Kat Yore is

296
00:24:23,730 --> 00:24:27,360
our technical director and mixing
engineer, editorial director Amanda

297
00:24:27,360 --> 00:24:31,020
Glassman, is our curator and production
coordinator. Amy Holmes is the

298
00:24:31,020 --> 00:24:34,800
foundation's executive director and our
co-founders are Cathy and Peter Halstead 

299
00:24:35,550 --> 00:24:36,480
thanks for listening