1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,840 A friend of mine who was writing about Braid, who'd seen Braid at GDC, sent Jon my webcomic, I guess. 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:11,040 I think that's how it happened. Or got us in touch. 3 00:00:11,040 --> 00:00:16,400 But the webcomic was essentially my portfolio for Braid. 4 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:22,560 So there was some kind of... something in the comic that was felt close enough in spirit to Braid, I think. 5 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:30,160 And I felt that way going into Braid, that there was some continuity and theme or approach or something like that. 6 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,680 Hello and welcome to episode three of the Braid Anniversary Podcast. 7 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:43,680 This time we're switching it up a bit. 8 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:48,720 Our interviewee is David Hellman, who is the primary visual artist of the game. 9 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:58,080 And when I say visual artist, that's always a little bit awkward because, you know, in the games industry we just call the person who does the graphics for the game the artist. 10 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:02,080 So David is the primary artist on the game, you would say. 11 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:06,720 But I don't like that terminology because I think game design is art and it's a very important art. 12 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:09,680 In fact, it's central to what games really are. 13 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:15,920 So, you know, why should visual art get the entire moniker of art for itself? 14 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:23,440 And so I tend to say visual artist just as my own particular eccentricity. 15 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:26,240 Anyway, David was the primary visual artist on the game. 16 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:30,720 Some other artists worked on the game and David will talk about that. 17 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:37,280 Most notably, Edmund McMillan did early animations and character designs that David then modified. 18 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:44,160 David's going to talk about how he got started working on the game and how he developed the style that is so recognizable today. 19 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,840 So let's get into it. 20 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:48,800 I'm ashamed. 21 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:50,160 What are you ashamed of, David? 22 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:53,360 Um, I don't know. 23 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:57,040 This game, this, if I'm trying, I'm not ashamed. 24 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:57,680 I'm not ashamed. 25 00:01:59,920 --> 00:02:01,200 You really backtracked on that. 26 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:02,400 What are you not telling me? 27 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:08,960 Uh, this is an interesting thing to like explain work I did a long time ago. 28 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:09,280 Okay. 29 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:10,880 It's cool. 30 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:11,760 I am happy about it. 31 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,360 Um, I feel, I feel a lot of, I feel very fortunate about braid overall. 32 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:15,920 Yeah. 33 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:23,680 That it, it's been a really good thing for me, but it's also kind of, uh, it just feels lucky. 34 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:29,200 I guess I think of braid as something that was very successful in the context of my life. 35 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,680 And like people talk, talk about it like it mattered. 36 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,720 And so I feel both proud, but also like that's just really lucky. 37 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,640 Like there's always some distance. 38 00:02:42,640 --> 00:02:47,120 There's always like a gap between having done a thing and then like what, however it's received 39 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:49,200 or exists in the world and other people knowing about it. 40 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:55,520 And that, so it's, it's unique in my life as a thing that people know about more than I expect. 41 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:56,080 Sometimes. 42 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:05,520 Do you think that, um, you know, you kind of mentioned that it kind of has a life on its own 43 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,080 outside of, you know, your experience with it. 44 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:08,400 Yeah. 45 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:17,520 And when you say you're ashamed that you feel lucky that, um, you know, is, is this just, um, 46 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:22,160 kicking yourself and saying that like my work's not important or is it that like, 47 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:23,040 like where's that coming from? 48 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:25,520 Yeah, I don't want to be overwrought. 49 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:30,400 Like I'm sort of kidding around, but, but I guess there's some, uh, like indifference feeling or 50 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:35,840 kind of two-sided feeling because maybe, because, uh, maybe it's the other side of like feeling 51 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,400 proud is feeling modest. 52 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:39,600 Okay. 53 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:40,880 Yeah. 54 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:42,000 But you are proud. 55 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:42,240 Yeah. 56 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:49,920 And I think I feel most comfortable if I'm talking about the decision-making and the work 57 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:51,600 and feeling excet creatively excited. 58 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,160 Then I think then I really like talking about it. 59 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:54,640 Okay. 60 00:03:54,640 --> 00:04:00,880 But, um, I'm also proud that, that like it was successful and that like, if I'm, 61 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:07,440 I just met somebody upstairs and didn't bring up that I, you know, I met like an artist, 62 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:09,280 a game artist. 63 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,960 And I said, yeah, I'm like working on, I've done an indie game or something. 64 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:15,840 And then was it you, you came over, was it? 65 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:17,120 Yeah, you're right there. 66 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,320 Cause there's another time Tom came over and the same thing happened 67 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:24,000 with someone else came over and said like, he's not telling you he did braid. 68 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:30,800 And that's all that's happened to me a bunch, you know, and that's what people do. 69 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:36,320 Also, like that's what people do when you're talking to people in your industry and people 70 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:43,760 know of each other's projects, you know, but, um, it's not like I'm in some random bar somewhere. 71 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:49,360 And it's like, Oh, braid isn't that famous, but there's still that sense that I do feel proud 72 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:55,200 that I made something that's important enough, I guess, or it was like effective enough as a product 73 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,640 that we're now doing this much later. 74 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:06,160 So I feel like a sense of pride and also a sense of like security and kind of like, um, 75 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:13,680 I feel like I've received enough praise in my life to feel most, I don't know, fairly secure, 76 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,160 which doesn't always work, but yeah. 77 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:24,880 On that subject then, um, let's kind of go back to original braid. 78 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:25,680 Okay. 79 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:31,920 Um, and you know, I mean, I met you post braid. 80 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,120 I don't know that it was like out yet, but it was like, I played it somewhere. 81 00:05:35,840 --> 00:05:37,040 The first time I met you. 82 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:43,680 So I didn't know David pre braid, but who was David Hellman, you know, like at the start of braid, 83 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:44,080 right? 84 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,920 Like, I know you're an artist, but you know what, like, what was your medium? 85 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,640 What were you doing at that time? 86 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:59,360 I was pretty fresh out of art school, um, in Baltimore where I grew up and I'd been doing 87 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:04,160 a web comic called a lesson is learned by the damages irreversible with my friend Dale Baran. 88 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:08,720 He's a writer and, um, I was interested in games. 89 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:13,360 I'd worked on some games in college with friend, a friend, some prototypes, I mean, 90 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:19,840 but I was pretty far removed from like, um, any actual industry activity or like viable 91 00:06:19,840 --> 00:06:20,640 indie development. 92 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:24,400 It was just kind of hobbyist stuff in an art school context. 93 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,840 And I really didn't want to get a job. 94 00:06:27,840 --> 00:06:29,040 Dale and I both felt that way. 95 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:35,680 And we were doing our comic as a way to forestall that, like, hopefully we would, um, just make 96 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,840 something we would own completely on our own terms and then make a lot of money off of that 97 00:06:39,840 --> 00:06:41,680 and never have to get jobs. 98 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:46,080 That was the goal, but we didn't have the business sense to pull that off. 99 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:52,000 Um, I mean, I was selling posters that I was printing at home and it was just not the volume 100 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,440 wasn't there and my kind of turnaround wasn't, wasn't, wasn't there. 101 00:06:55,440 --> 00:07:01,680 So it was, you know, paying for some of our costs, but, but not much more. 102 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:12,400 Um, and then John, um, John Blow, uh, a friend of mine who was writing about braid, who'd 103 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:19,200 seen braid at GDC, uh, sent John my web, my, uh, web comic, I guess, I think that's how 104 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:26,640 it happened or, or got us in touch, but the web comic was essentially my, um, portfolio 105 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:27,280 for braid. 106 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:34,800 So there was some kind of something in the comic that was felt close enough in spirit 107 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:35,760 to braid, I think. 108 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:41,680 And I felt that way going into braid that there was some continuity and theme or approach 109 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:42,640 or something like that. 110 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:43,840 Yeah. 111 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:51,600 I mean, what comes to mind for me, when I think of the two back to back, um, is surely 112 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:57,840 just informed by the fact that it's your art, but, um, there's definitely a tonal connection. 113 00:07:57,840 --> 00:07:58,320 Yeah. 114 00:07:59,040 --> 00:07:59,760 I think so. 115 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:06,240 Um, I, I mean, I actually struggled to come up with, with the, the adjectives to describe 116 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:09,920 that tone, but I'm wondering if, if, if you know what they might be. 117 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:14,320 I think the comic, a lesson is learned like braid. 118 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:20,800 I think we were struggling with just messy stuff about human feelings. 119 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:32,880 Um, kind of personal feelings, romantic feelings, uh, some yearning, some, sometimes literally 120 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:34,320 like a romantic desire. 121 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:41,120 And sometimes just the kind of discomfort, uh, in the world, like, like an existential, 122 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:43,440 uh, uncertainty or something. 123 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:49,280 So some feeling of incompleteness, kind of high level airy stuff, like, uh, emotional 124 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:50,480 stuff and. 125 00:08:51,680 --> 00:08:54,960 You know, not like survival angst, but feelings. 126 00:08:55,760 --> 00:09:00,960 And then the artistic expression itself being a way of engaging with that. 127 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:06,880 I think like the comic took many forms visually, like I, I, we were restless and changed it 128 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:07,600 up a lot. 129 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:12,880 And that's part of what made it really fun that we never had to just like be production 130 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,360 line style and do a bunch of the same thing. 131 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:20,960 It was always evolving a bit and exploring and that kind of search, uh, and like shifting, 132 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:27,360 I think had something to do with trying to resolve irresolvable things that you're feeling, 133 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,080 you know, and that's what I was trying to do. 134 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:36,400 And also having fun with it, like enjoying the, uh, uh, the possibilities. 135 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:46,000 And yeah, braid I think is also about some kind of hard to, um, some kind of search that's 136 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:51,600 hard to exactly explain, but some kind of existential search or search for the, for 137 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:57,360 like the truth of the world, um, access through one's own senses and thoughts, which are 138 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:04,480 unreliable and, um, and also some kind of romantic search that kind of searching for some attachment 139 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:10,800 that would be significant or profound or complete, complete the picture somehow. 140 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:19,360 And, uh, and yeah, kind of reshaping the world, reshaping your world as, as experienced through 141 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:20,320 your senses and thoughts. 142 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:29,680 So, so kind of the way, um, the style of the comic changed, uh, the world of braid is, 143 00:10:29,680 --> 00:10:31,840 is in, is in the process of being created. 144 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:37,040 That's what we wanted to come across that it feels like it's being made in front of 145 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:42,080 you and it's alive and it's like, you're seeing a painting being painted in front of you, 146 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:43,280 but you're inside of it. 147 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,200 That was the, the idea. 148 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:50,800 So where is that idea coming from, you know, maybe thematically with braid, like, like 149 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:56,800 what, when you're, when you're expressing visually this idea of a painting coming to 150 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:03,120 life in front of you and you inhabiting that space, um, what to your mind is it that, that 151 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,680 is tying into maybe the narrative or the theme of braid that, that you're expressing through 152 00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:08,160 that? 153 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:15,040 Well, I think Tim, the main character in braid is, um, trying to answer questions in his 154 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:22,400 life and, and he's, he's doing it actively through an act of creation or maybe even thinking 155 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:27,840 about it as an act of creation, because his thoughts become his world, the thoughts he 156 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:32,240 constructs around himself that he needs to kind of parse what's going on. 157 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:41,520 And so there's a kind of solipsistic aspect, maybe like, you know, I mean, I think we all, 158 00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:47,200 you know, interface through our own interface, the world through our own perceptions and 159 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:47,520 everything. 160 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:54,160 But I think in braid, it's a very conscious overt thing where, uh, it's supported in the 161 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:59,680 narrative too, that he's like, has a creative power in the world and he's, he's, he's, he's 162 00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:06,080 has a creative power in the world and he's sort of trying different, um, experiments 163 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:10,800 to see what will, what the, if he can understand the world better. 164 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:18,720 So, so the, there's a creative, um, don't know if I'm answering your question directly, 165 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:27,440 but the art, the art, the living painting idea reflects Tim's creativity in trying 166 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:34,000 to create a world, create a, uh, create a framework that will allow him to have like 167 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:38,000 that authentic encounter with, with the world, but he has to build that himself. 168 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,640 It's not, I guess he can't just access it directly. 169 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:46,000 It has to be discovered or, or yes, it builds some scaffolding towards it. 170 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:58,960 So when there's, for example, um, maybe pieces of, you know, real world, uh, that are maybe 171 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,800 like morphed and skewed within braids world, right? 172 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:09,120 Like I'm thinking of furniture and, and, and, and like the house, like when there's props 173 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:18,560 like that, you know, is, is that, um, is that Tim trying to sort of build a framework with 174 00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:22,240 what he understands in, uh, let me rephrase that. 175 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:28,080 Is that Tim sort of like grasping at what he already knows and understands in, in, in 176 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:35,040 order to like build a new framework for, for sort of building this, uh, I don't know, this, 177 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:44,560 this, this new way of connecting, I guess you're asking if the, what role does that 178 00:13:44,560 --> 00:13:45,040 stuff play? 179 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:45,600 You know what I mean? 180 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:52,080 Like, like, because it's, it's not just, you know, I'm thinking of, um, I don't know what 181 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:56,960 world I think it's five or six, where it's, you know, there's just like the giant drawers 182 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:02,960 and, you know, and like that to me as an observer is like, that's something from Tim's real 183 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:08,240 world that sort of like dream, like being painted into, you know, whatever he's got 184 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:09,280 going on right now. 185 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:13,680 Like, like what, what, what, what were you going for by incorporating those things? 186 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:22,560 Yeah, well, the scenery in each world reflects the themes of the world, which are particular, 187 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:30,320 which relate to Tim's particular state of mind and particular, uh, focus and, and everything. 188 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:38,560 So in five world five is about the question of staying or going and world five explores 189 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:44,080 two outcomes, two different outcomes from that fork, from that decision. 190 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:51,920 So, um, when you rewind the last thing you did plays forward, but you're now existing 191 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:52,880 in a parallel world. 192 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:59,600 So it's first implemented in the, in the game play and the game systems, and then the puzzles 193 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:04,960 engage with that idea that, that reality that created reality created by the programmer 194 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:11,040 and designer of two worlds that do in fact, in front of you exist in parallel. 195 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:19,200 And then, so then the art, um, tries to engage with that motif both, I guess, as a formal 196 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,840 thing, but also emotionally. 197 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:27,760 So if it's about saying or leaving, I want to represent both of those ideas. 198 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:36,000 So we have a lot of, um, domestic objects, like the drawers and the comfy pillows and 199 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:36,240 stuff. 200 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:37,520 They're not there. 201 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,320 They need to look really comfortable and nice. 202 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:44,000 Like what a nice, uh, duvet, what a nice sofa. 203 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,960 This pillow has a lot of texture on it, these beautiful old books. 204 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,880 So there's a sense of value in them, but then they're, they're all out in a swamp. 205 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:55,280 They're all out in the water and they're obviously deteriorating. 206 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:59,280 Uh, they're in piles, so they're not well cared for anymore. 207 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:07,520 So it, there's a contradiction that I'm just trying to turn into a visual, but I mean, 208 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:08,880 hopefully it's sort of intuitive. 209 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:14,480 It may feel kind of weird, but then it gives your mind something to like play with while 210 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:15,920 you're also doing the puzzles. 211 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,040 So when you're talking about these, these themes for different worlds and, and, you 212 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:28,000 know, the visual elements that you use to, um, to visualize, I guess those, those themes, 213 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:28,240 right. 214 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:38,000 Um, are these ideas that were presented to you in a fully formed way, or were you able 215 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:44,400 to contribute creatively to braid beyond just the visual looks of it? 216 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:46,240 I got to contribute. 217 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:51,600 Yeah, the way it started was John explained the theme of each world. 218 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:57,280 And I remember the first email and it was just, uh, about this and it, and there was 219 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:02,720 literally a list of like world two, uh, world three, world four, like one line about each. 220 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:08,480 I mean, he would elaborate on it more, but, but I did start from just a very simple direction 221 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:12,960 of, you know, the idea of, um, and I'd have to look at what that was to say exactly, but 222 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:19,600 it might've been like the idea of staying or going, um, or, uh, world, you know, world 223 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:27,360 two, which is the first one, confusingly being, uh, having a sense of possibility and adventure 224 00:17:27,360 --> 00:17:33,520 and optimism and feeling the most sort of normal as like a, uh, green Hills game area, 225 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:38,480 you know, and then the world following that world three, having an increased sense of 226 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,360 like magic to it, but also danger. 227 00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:44,160 Um, and, and forward from there. 228 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,160 So it's just kind of like a very simple direction. 229 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,480 And then, yeah, I had room to play. 230 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:56,800 There might've been cases where he had a specific thing he wanted, but I definitely had room 231 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:57,600 to explore. 232 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:04,800 Did you contribute in a game design sense at all, or were you strictly limited to visuals? 233 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:11,040 I did get to contribute the design a little bit and, uh, I was happy with it. 234 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:12,080 I was happy about that. 235 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:18,400 I remain, remain proud of it, uh, because I only recently started working with John 236 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,520 and it was all remote over email. 237 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,320 So, you know, but I was excited. 238 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,760 So I didn't know this guy, but I was excited that we were doing this thing together and 239 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,000 great job for me to have at the time. 240 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:38,800 And John was trying to figure out how to visually justify how to make it intuitive that there 241 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:43,600 are moving cloud platforms that disappear and then reappear somewhere else kind of looping. 242 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:50,720 They're just moving platforms that have to loop, um, from kind of arbitrary positions. 243 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:58,080 And he actually emailed me and some of his designer friends, and there were a bunch of 244 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:04,880 ideas and I had the best idea, which was to use something that already existed, which 245 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:06,000 were the cannons. 246 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,520 There were already two kinds of cannons, cannons that shoot fireballs, which is what you would 247 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,520 expect and cannons that shoot, um, monsters. 248 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:18,400 So there was already an idea that cannons can shoot non-obvious things. 249 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,400 And so the cloud was just another extension of that, the cloud cannon. 250 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:28,080 And that way you have the cloud itself is the visual starting point of the cloud. 251 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:34,240 And when the cloud hits an object, hits a wall, it will disperse and then the cannon will 252 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:35,200 fire again. 253 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:40,720 So, uh, yeah, it was just like kind of an elegant solution. 254 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:46,560 As a former producer, I very much appreciate the recycling of concepts. 255 00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:55,280 What was the state of the game when you first got involved? 256 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:02,640 When I first got involved, the game was functionally complete. 257 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:08,720 It would change in some ways after that, but it was fully playable and looked done except 258 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:10,880 that the art wasn't there. 259 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:12,480 Well, there was some art. 260 00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:21,200 John had actually hired some, I think he hired a firm which had assigned some artists to 261 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:26,000 the project, but then they were taken off of it because of another client, essentially. 262 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:32,160 And they were, the art that was there had, if I remember right, it had, 263 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:39,280 it wasn't like photo real, but it had kind of more towards a realistic children's book 264 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:40,640 illustration style, I think. 265 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:47,200 And I remember like logs and forest scenes and the scale was different. 266 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:52,160 Like the logs were very large, like it made Tim look like a little bug or something. 267 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:57,840 And everything else was like tall grasses and logs and twisty trees and stuff. 268 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:02,240 And actually that kind of, that had some influence on me. 269 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,920 Like I took that as a cue to do trees, which I like drawing trees anyway. 270 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:14,880 But then large parts of the game were just like without art, like just like bounding boxes 271 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:19,200 or like simple volumes with a repeated texture or whatever. 272 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:25,360 Edmund McMillan of Super Meat Boy, Binding of Isaac fame and others was working on the 273 00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:27,920 game and had done character sprites. 274 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:34,240 So the character sprites were quite far along, maybe finished. 275 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:41,040 And so that was, that didn't stay, but they remained influential. 276 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:42,880 Like I ended up working over them. 277 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,840 So in some cases they remain very much the look of the characters. 278 00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:48,560 Does that include Tim? 279 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,600 Like, did you design Tim or did you just refine him? 280 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:52,960 I refined Tim. 281 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:59,280 The Edmunds characters that remain very close are like the greeter dinosaur at the end of the worlds. 282 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:03,600 The claw or the plant that comes out of the pipe. 283 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,840 The rabbit is pretty close. 284 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:14,240 The monster creature, the sort of Goomba, like round guy that walks, was redrawn a lot. 285 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:23,360 But, but use, like kind of re-use frame by frame. 286 00:22:23,360 --> 00:22:26,560 So I think like the way the feet move are exactly how Edmund did them, I think. 287 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:31,760 And then Tim, Tim, I changed the look fully. 288 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:33,680 Like the face is totally different. 289 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:40,400 The head, the proportions are a little different, but I think it was based on all of his, his framework. 290 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,640 So probably the way he moves is, is Edmund's work. 291 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,640 When you're drawing Tim, is he a real person to you? 292 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,240 Is that, is that a person in your head? 293 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:52,100 No. 294 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:56,880 I try to give him John's cheekbones. 295 00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:58,480 Is that right? 296 00:22:58,480 --> 00:22:58,980 Yeah. 297 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:01,200 I think that's all though. 298 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,880 So do you think of him as, as, as autobiographical John, 299 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,880 or do you just think of him as a video game, generic sprite? 300 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,720 I think of him as having elements of John, just because the game was John's game. 301 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:21,200 But, I don't know, he's, he's, his job is to be like the game character. 302 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:22,560 So he's like, he's Jumpman. 303 00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:25,520 He's the guy who's in there doing that stuff. 304 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:32,080 And like, he's, he's, he's emotive, but not to the full breadth of like, 305 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,160 what the story would, would imply or demand. 306 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,680 So he's more of like a cipher for the player. 307 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,320 He's like there to be the game character. 308 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,520 And I think, I think there, actually, I think there's some interesting tension between 309 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:50,160 like the amount of depth or kind of like emotional range suggested by the story, 310 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:55,600 by the parts you read before the, the worlds and the way Tim looks. 311 00:23:55,600 --> 00:24:02,160 Cause he's, he's not as emotive as, as, he doesn't have the burden of like 312 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,240 acting all these different, different shades and facets. 313 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:07,840 He's like a game character. 314 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:13,040 On that note, your personal life before this, before Braid, 315 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,840 what was your relationship to 2D platformers? 316 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,200 Was that, was that a kind of game that you enjoyed prior to this? 317 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,720 Yeah. I grew up on Nintendo games. 318 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,200 Let's see. I mean, there's a lot of Mario references. 319 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:32,960 So yeah, that absolutely was loomed large for me. 320 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:37,920 So when you're, for example, thinking about, you know, animation frames, 321 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:42,160 like turnaround frames, jumping frames, are you mostly drawing from Super Mario? 322 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,480 You know, well, I mean, again, the, a lot of the animation was already 323 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,400 prototype by Edmund or drawn, fully drawn by Edmund, but it ended up being treated 324 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,920 as a prototype because I painted over, but those are his poses in general. 325 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:59,920 But there is a way that like Tim's look is Mario like, I mean, he's wearing a suit, 326 00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:05,760 which I think, I mean, you know, thinking about it now and having like surprising 327 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:12,240 thoughts because the, uh, what I was going to say about it was Mario is like a game, 328 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,000 archetype. He's just sort of like a game character. 329 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,560 And then Tim is sort of taken into more realistic real world direction. 330 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,600 Like he's wearing a suit. So he's like a real guy. 331 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,760 But I don't know if that makes any sense. I mean, Mario is wearing overalls because 332 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,600 he's a plumber. He's just blue collar and Tim is like the white collar. 333 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,120 So I think it's probably truer to say that not that like Tim is a realistic Mario, 334 00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:39,840 but he's just a white collar Mario. He's like the, he's a PMC Mario. 335 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,600 He's professional class Mario. There's rabbits in this game. 336 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,680 Yep. You foster rabbit. 337 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:48,800 Yeah. That's the question. 338 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,320 We have rabbits, but that happened much later. 339 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,440 Okay. So no connection in your art style. 340 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:56,000 No, no, no. 341 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:02,400 I, in fact, I would have drawn the rabbits differently if I'd had rabbits when I was 342 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,400 working on grade. Okay. 343 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:10,560 You know, let that water, there we go. Um, what would you change about the rabbits 344 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,320 now that you're, you foster rabbits? If you were starting from scratch? 345 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:20,000 That's a really good question. I have, I have like a very much richer and personal sense of what is 346 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:27,280 cute about rabbits. So I would have, um, I would definitely would have captured more of the 347 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,880 expressions of, of our rabbits and their body shape. Probably. 348 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,920 Would you have kept them as vicious as they are? 349 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:35,600 Yes, I think so. 350 00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:40,000 Tell me about art school. What did you study in art school? 351 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,120 I was a general fine arts major, which gave me the most flexibility, 352 00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:50,880 which is very much in keeping with my whole like avoid a job, avoid obligations stuff 353 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:57,120 and do things that I want to do. So, um, that let me do, I did a lot of studio art classes and, 354 00:26:57,120 --> 00:27:03,280 and, um, I wanted, I was grounded in like real materials. I was very interested in like 355 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,800 charcoals and paint and stuff like that, which I hadn't done a lot before. 356 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:14,800 So that influenced me a lot. Um, even though I would end up working mostly digitally, uh, 357 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:20,800 like braid is all digital art and everything I do now, but, um, that experience of working with 358 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:27,280 real materials changed how I worked. Cause it, it's much more fluid and like, you're like molding 359 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,920 and sculpting sometimes, you know, like, like with, um, like as a kid, I would draw it mostly with 360 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:38,000 markers and you just have to kind of anticipate the page well enough to like put the lines down 361 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:43,200 with a strategy of like building up from, you know, you kind of pre-visualize it enough and 362 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:48,400 then you build up with some strategy to like assemble things and leave the enough room for 363 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:54,160 everything and put the focal point where you want and everything. But with materials like charcoal 364 00:27:54,160 --> 00:28:00,880 and oils, they can evolve. You can go over and move them around a lot. So I got very interested 365 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:10,720 in that whole process and, um, felt that it reflected in some way, like the complexity of, 366 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:15,120 of like being a human or something that we were trying to capture in the comic, 367 00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:21,520 a lesson is learned and that I felt was relevant in braid that life involves a kind of messy search 368 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:27,440 for the right shape of things. And you're gonna, you're gonna try something and then wipe it out 369 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:33,600 or go over it again, or it will, there'll be surprises and discoveries as you go and you'll 370 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:39,840 find yourself doing something by engaging with that confusion and that mess. Um, you'll find 371 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,320 something you wouldn't have found otherwise. So you're not always able to pre-visualize and 372 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:51,840 just go indirectly. Not, not that that doesn't also involve discovery and responding to what's 373 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:59,200 in front of you. It does, but I got interested in that messy process. So in that process, I mean, 374 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:10,320 does, does that messy approach, um, allow for like say happy accidents for sure. Yeah. You're 375 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:19,040 bound to have happy accidents and I like things that are irregular too. So sometimes, um, you end 376 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:25,040 up, you know, making a, sometimes I literally make a, make a mess, like just make some scribbles and 377 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:31,040 then start to draw over them. And then I'm forced to focus in a way that I'm seeing the new thing 378 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:36,160 I'm putting down, um, and kind of filtering out the thing that it's on top of, but then it gets 379 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:42,480 incorporated surprisingly sometimes, so I may only cover like half the canvas, but the half that's 380 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,960 showing through is now serving the thing that went on top kind of by accident. But then I allow it 381 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:54,480 to allow it to exist. Were there any elements that come to mind in braid that, um, you weren't 382 00:29:54,480 --> 00:30:00,640 visualizing when you started throwing the digital paint down that just sort of like materialize 383 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:06,240 themselves out of the marble? Well, you said out of the marble. That reminds me of a quote, 384 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:12,080 isn't that the Michelangelo quote that, did you know that? Oh, I thought that's why you said out 385 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:18,880 of the marble. But there is a quote from Michelangelo, I think, um, or at least a saying 386 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,360 about him. Oh, sure. I mean, that is what I was drawing. Yeah, yeah. That he would, uh, see the, 387 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:28,320 I see the figure in the block of marble and free it. And that's what I'm thinking of when you're 388 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:33,840 describing this mess process and that sort of carving away at it. But that quote, I don't know, 389 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:38,880 I haven't heard like discussions of that, but that suggests to me almost more of like a sense of, 390 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:43,680 um, that the final form is kind of faded or dictated somehow. Like it's already there and 391 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:51,760 he just has to reveal it. And then, and marble is, is so, um, like hard and doesn't move around. So 392 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:57,920 once you chip something off, it's basically done, but that's so different from like the, 393 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:02,240 from messy painting where you're pushing things around back and forth and there's no like definite 394 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:07,040 endpoint. It's just like, um, you could work it forever. You don't run out of marble to chip off. 395 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:12,640 I don't know if I answered your question though. I think you did. So you had done some, let's say 396 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:20,880 amateur game development before braid. Are there like braid looking prototypes that, you know what 397 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:25,520 I mean? Like that you worked on, like, is there any sort of similarities between braid and, and, 398 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:33,360 and your, your past, uh, game prototypes? I don't think so. Um, I don't remember the things that I 399 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:38,800 can think of now look very different. Like I remember working in, um, like black and white, 400 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:48,080 low res pixel art and doing 16 bit style art and even doing some 3d stuff, which, um, as I remain 401 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:54,640 a beginner in all that, but, um, you know, building like some kind of 3d castle and having a critter 402 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,440 run around. So probably nothing like braid. 403 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,600 I think a hard time visualizing 3d art from you to be honest. 404 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:09,200 It's just like a Minecraft type thing. Blocky, but I, but I do like space and designing spaces 405 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:13,600 and the feeling of being inside of a thing or you've gone outside or on top of it and all that 406 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:19,520 stuff. Yeah, that I'm having an easy time imagining for sure. Just based on, you know, things like 407 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:25,600 second quest, right? Like that's, that's definitely you. Um, do you feel that there were, you know, 408 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:32,880 do you feel that there were other artists you were tapping into when drawing bright? 409 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:38,720 Yeah, I always cite Paul Cezanne definitely his work definitely had a huge impact on me and, um, 410 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:46,240 and I've looked at it a lot. I really liked how they're probably just some like formal 411 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:52,320 similarities. I could point out like the way he constructs things with a lot of regular brush 412 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:57,200 strokes that many of them are kind of kind of close in size and shape and it's just like 413 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:01,440 a lot of strokes, but he's also building with like a very strong sense of geometry. 414 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:10,880 And I do that in some way, but, um, there's also to me, like a vibrancy in the way he combines 415 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:19,120 colors and, and I just have a feeling that his work has a search about it. Like he's searching 416 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:25,680 for something beautiful and ordered for him and the way he handles contours and shapes 417 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:33,040 they kind of shimmer. It's kind of like, there's a vibration to it. So, um, things aren't like 418 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:39,680 locked in completely firmly. Like they're like marble. It has a kind of shimmeriness to it. Like 419 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:45,040 the way, um, which feels like perceptual to me, like the way your head moves around side to side 420 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:53,200 a little bit. And therefore things are kind of hovering around more than, you know, being 421 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:59,840 completely, uh, reliable and solid. I think that kind of hovering feeling is also feels somehow 422 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,680 related. I don't know. Just, that's just how life is. Like things are kind of, things shift and, 423 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:09,200 and are a bit unreliable, but you try to keep your bearings. It's interesting. This is, you know, 424 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:16,240 maybe the second or third time this theme has come up in this conversation of, um, kind of 425 00:34:16,240 --> 00:34:22,320 searching for truth through art. Right. I mean, is this something that, you know, I feel that from 426 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:27,360 the game design as well from the narrative, right? I mean, is this, is this something that 427 00:34:28,240 --> 00:34:34,880 you think maybe connects you and Jonathan? Yeah, I think it, I think that was a similarity that 428 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:41,440 made me feel at home with the project very quickly. Yeah. And it's something that, you know, 429 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:46,160 is it something that, well, actually this was the next question I was going to ask was, um, 430 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,040 what did you think of the game when you got it? Were you, were you like, oh, this is, this is a 431 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:55,520 cool game. I'm really excited to work on this or, you know, like, like what was your perception of 432 00:34:55,520 --> 00:35:02,080 the game when it came in? I thought the game was cool. Um, I thought it was clever. I thought it, 433 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:08,320 um, I thought it was clever. I thought it had integrity. Like I, I could tell, you know, 434 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:13,680 cause he would talk about this, but it was also obvious in the game that it, it really, um, 435 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:20,160 gets to the point, you know, it's doing something interesting and it's self-aware and focused. And 436 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:27,200 so it's not like larding it up with a lot of, um, tropes and kind of trinkets and things. 437 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:33,360 So it's, um, you know, John would always say this game values your time. So yeah, it felt, 438 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:40,080 it felt like something intentional and cool and, um, intelligent, like there was some, some, uh, 439 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:47,200 but you know, it also, it also felt like, I think it w this may be retrospective more than how I 440 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:54,560 felt at the time. I don't know, but it, it did feel also like the natural thing for someone to do, 441 00:35:54,560 --> 00:36:00,720 because I, even though I was living in Baltimore and just kind of engaging online and stuff like 442 00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:03,680 that, I think there was a sense that, uh, 443 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:17,440 games were ready to become more personal and to use some established, um, forms and formats to, 444 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:26,800 um, to be more introspective or philosophical, that kind of thing. Like I remember kind of applying 445 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:31,360 that to even a Zelda game, like talking about the light world and the dark world as having some kind 446 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,920 of, I remember actually my friends laughed at me because I was getting too, uh, highfalutin about 447 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:40,880 it, but like, you know, the idea that there's a world and then there's like a, there's like a, 448 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:45,600 a symbolic world behind it that reflects some truth. Like I thought I just wanted to, you know, 449 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:54,160 like, I just thought games can do all this stuff, you know, but you, you, if you strip away, um, 450 00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:04,480 this stuff that just feels very like genre, uh, tropy and, and kind of put in some signifiers to 451 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:10,480 kind of hint that it's okay for people to think about it more deeply, then they'll start to have 452 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:22,640 a more profound experience with it. So, okay. So you were in Baltimore, um, working remotely over 453 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:30,880 email. Um, when you were working on Braid, where did you do that physically? I was in my parents 454 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:37,040 house. I'd finished art school and I'd moved back to my parents' house, which was nearby 455 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:43,600 and I don't remember what I was planning at the time. I tend not to plan very much. So if I have 456 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:49,520 something to do that, you know, if I'm doing a creative project and I'm okay in the present, 457 00:37:50,720 --> 00:37:58,240 I focus on that. So, um, I'm, it's possible I was just living there and, um, got this 458 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:05,200 Braid gig and was doing that for a while. And then, and then it didn't take long to start, 459 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,960 to start, that I started to think about moving to San Francisco. I kind of, I did want to move. 460 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:15,440 I did want to leave Baltimore, but yeah, that's where I was at the time. When you do Braid art 461 00:38:16,240 --> 00:38:23,440 then and, or, you know, other than like original or anniversary, I mean, is there, 462 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:32,240 is there a particular like mode that you have to put yourself in? Yeah. 463 00:38:32,240 --> 00:38:40,560 Well, there's certainly, yeah, I'm sure there is, but I might have to like conjure it, 464 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:45,520 but I guess there would be like some emotional mode, but definitely like a technique mode. 465 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:53,200 Like the way I painted Braid, actually I don't do that anymore because it, it's too time consuming. 466 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,880 Like I worked, like I mentioned a lot of little brushstrokes. So it's a very inefficient way to 467 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:03,440 paint actually. It's just kind of crawling over everything with like a small brush. 468 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:08,320 It's not the smallest, you know, but it's a lot of individually placed. It's like a lot of 469 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:17,200 stippling and poking and, you know, a lot of sampling. What I would do was work with kind of, 470 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:25,280 kind of work with one brush a lot of the time. And that changed a bit, which one I was using, 471 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:30,000 but I'd work with one brush that was like a round brush with a very simple shape or maybe 472 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,840 like a little bit of texture, a little bit of grain on it. Or like sometimes I was using a 473 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:43,760 brush with a canvas texture that a lot of people noticed in the original Braid. I'm using one brush 474 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:54,960 and its opacity is set to like 60 to 75%. And as I go, I'm, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just 475 00:39:54,960 --> 00:40:00,960 sampling with the eyedropper. So I'm sampling locally, painting transparently and then sampling 476 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:07,040 again. So I'm getting more subdivisions of color. And so that, that's kind of how I worked on it. 477 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:13,360 And when you revisited it, did you go back to your old techniques to make sure you were sort 478 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:18,400 of being true to Braid or did you, did you have new techniques to come up with sort of similar 479 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:23,840 aesthetics? I think I did largely the same thing. I was working, actually I did the new Braid art 480 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:29,680 mostly in Procreate on my iPad, which I was using for a long time. So a little bit different 481 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:40,000 workflow, but yeah, very similar ultimately. Thanks for listening to the Braid Anniversary 482 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:45,680 podcast. We'll be back next week with another episode. What'll be in it, we don't even know yet, 483 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:53,680 but till then enjoy life. In this episode, Frank Ciafaldi asked the questions, David Hellman, 484 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:59,840 answered the questions, Jason Brisson produced, and Will Torbett edited. Thank you and we'll see 485 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:28,000 you next time.