WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.580 She started giving me art lessons when I was 00:00:02.580 --> 00:00:06.400 a toddler. But I started out with a real advantage 00:00:06.400 --> 00:00:09.300 by the time starting school. I don't know if 00:00:09.300 --> 00:00:12.539 I had any real ability or not, but I had training. 00:00:12.939 --> 00:00:17.620 So I come into kindergarten and I'm several years 00:00:17.620 --> 00:00:21.000 ahead, basically, compared to other children 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:24.839 as far as being able to depict something and 00:00:24.839 --> 00:00:54.509 draw it realistically. Welcome to Overeducated 00:00:54.509 --> 00:00:56.929 and Underemployed. We've got a really interesting 00:00:56.929 --> 00:00:59.929 episode this week. We've got Amanda McKay, who 00:00:59.929 --> 00:01:04.049 is a veterinary illustrator, as well as an artist 00:01:04.049 --> 00:01:09.189 and a YouTuber with videos on artistic inspiration 00:01:09.189 --> 00:01:13.310 and creativity, kind of motivation. And she's 00:01:13.310 --> 00:01:17.870 also recently started a series, a feminist field 00:01:17.870 --> 00:01:19.989 guide series that I think is really interesting, 00:01:20.090 --> 00:01:22.969 and I encourage you to check it out. There's 00:01:22.969 --> 00:01:25.310 a link in the description. I don't know that 00:01:25.310 --> 00:01:27.469 I'd ever even heard of a veterinary illustrator 00:01:27.469 --> 00:01:32.670 before. This was a really fascinating conversation 00:01:32.670 --> 00:01:37.769 about that as well as about Amanda's life and 00:01:37.769 --> 00:01:40.849 influences and all of the things. She's also 00:01:40.849 --> 00:01:44.969 an artist independently of that and has a new 00:01:44.969 --> 00:01:47.409 book called Artistic Alchemy. It came out late 00:01:47.409 --> 00:01:49.750 last year. There's a link to it in the description. 00:01:50.329 --> 00:01:53.269 She's also part of the 13 Collective, which a 00:01:53.269 --> 00:01:55.950 bunch of the guests on this podcast have been 00:01:55.950 --> 00:01:58.250 a part of. It's an art collective out of Athens, 00:01:58.370 --> 00:02:01.069 Georgia. I plan to talk to more of them as well 00:02:01.069 --> 00:02:05.090 over the next few months. Anyway, really fascinating, 00:02:05.269 --> 00:02:07.730 interesting conversation. Really appreciated 00:02:07.730 --> 00:02:11.710 her coming on the show. Yeah. Before I get into 00:02:11.710 --> 00:02:13.849 that, I just want to remind y 'all this Friday, 00:02:14.129 --> 00:02:18.900 The Rec Room, me and Sean Lubin. are co -headlining 00:02:18.900 --> 00:02:23.379 a comedy show along with a few other comedians, 00:02:23.500 --> 00:02:26.479 Caleb Thomas, Carol Hatcher, and LaRon Josie 00:02:26.479 --> 00:02:28.939 Jr. It's going to be a hilarious night, I promise. 00:02:29.199 --> 00:02:31.840 Come check it out. Sean and I are going to record 00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:35.080 an episode of this podcast as well, so look forward 00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:38.120 to that. And then in a few weeks at the Phipps 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:40.439 Farm in Tallahassee, make sure y 'all come out 00:02:40.439 --> 00:02:43.319 to P -Funk Fest, take it to the stage. It's going 00:02:43.319 --> 00:02:46.460 to be killer. We're going to be talking to all 00:02:46.460 --> 00:02:48.539 kinds of members of the Parliament Funkadelic 00:02:48.539 --> 00:02:53.340 family. And doing some live broadcasts and all 00:02:53.340 --> 00:02:56.639 kinds of cool stuff. So make sure you hit the 00:02:56.639 --> 00:02:59.439 subscribe button. Because next week we've got 00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:01.659 Thelma and the Sleaze on the show. And that was 00:03:01.659 --> 00:03:06.259 a really cool interview too. Make sure you come 00:03:06.259 --> 00:03:08.900 check out that fest. It's going to be killer. 00:03:09.740 --> 00:03:12.849 Here's my interview with Manda McKay. Just be 00:03:12.849 --> 00:03:14.930 aware that we do get into some medical stuff 00:03:14.930 --> 00:03:16.889 at a couple points here. If you're a little bit 00:03:16.889 --> 00:03:18.650 squeamish when she starts talking about that, 00:03:18.710 --> 00:03:20.689 you may just want to skip forward a couple of 00:03:20.689 --> 00:03:23.069 minutes. It was really awesome talking to her. 00:03:23.789 --> 00:03:26.430 We're on Overeducated and Underemployed. I'm 00:03:26.430 --> 00:03:29.229 here with Amanda McKay. She's a visual artist, 00:03:29.250 --> 00:03:31.949 and she just launched a YouTube channel with 00:03:31.949 --> 00:03:36.189 tips for creativity, and it's really inspiring. 00:03:36.330 --> 00:03:38.129 I've watched several of your videos already. 00:03:38.939 --> 00:03:40.780 I'm going to start with the first question that 00:03:40.780 --> 00:03:44.560 I ask everybody that comes on. And I'm just making 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:49.199 sure my mic's on. And I think it's just a question 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:52.819 that kind of gets to the root of early artistic 00:03:52.819 --> 00:03:55.680 influence. But what's the first song that you 00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:59.280 remember loving as a kid? The first song? That 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:02.919 might be California Dreaming by the Mamas and 00:04:02.919 --> 00:04:05.879 the Papas. Mamas and the Papas, yeah, yeah. My 00:04:05.879 --> 00:04:08.939 uncle had the record and then... He had gone 00:04:08.939 --> 00:04:11.400 off to Vietnam, and so at some point, my sister 00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:14.539 and I had it when we were babies. So I think 00:04:14.539 --> 00:04:16.500 California Dreamin' would be the first one that 00:04:16.500 --> 00:04:19.879 I remember like that. What about that song do 00:04:19.879 --> 00:04:23.180 you remember loving about it? We were in California 00:04:23.180 --> 00:04:26.600 at the time, so it did make me relate to that. 00:04:27.399 --> 00:04:30.339 Let me think about that. What did I love about 00:04:30.339 --> 00:04:33.100 it? It's got a really interesting story in the 00:04:33.100 --> 00:04:37.000 song, and even when I was a toddler, where... 00:04:37.389 --> 00:04:40.389 The singer pretends that he's praying and he's 00:04:40.389 --> 00:04:42.029 just trying to get out of the cold going into 00:04:42.029 --> 00:04:45.050 a church. And he's just faking it, basically. 00:04:45.550 --> 00:04:48.529 And I don't know why this would appeal to me 00:04:48.529 --> 00:04:50.649 when I was that age. But I still really love 00:04:50.649 --> 00:04:56.149 the song now. Yeah. Do you remember how old you 00:04:56.149 --> 00:05:01.790 were? Probably two years old, maybe. Oh, wow. 00:05:01.930 --> 00:05:05.329 Okay. Yeah. Did you have an early affinity for 00:05:05.329 --> 00:05:08.810 music? I did as far as listening to it, but not 00:05:08.810 --> 00:05:11.889 as far as having any musical talents. Yeah, yeah, 00:05:11.910 --> 00:05:15.189 I can relate to that. I'm the same way. I'm not, 00:05:15.310 --> 00:05:19.269 like, I can sing enough to do three karaoke songs, 00:05:19.449 --> 00:05:23.649 and my voice is just gone. But other than that, 00:05:23.689 --> 00:05:27.769 I've had no musical talent. But I've always been 00:05:27.769 --> 00:05:30.230 super passionate about music and loved it a lot. 00:05:30.730 --> 00:05:33.670 Do you remember an offshoot of that question 00:05:33.670 --> 00:05:36.100 that I ask everybody? Do you remember some of 00:05:36.100 --> 00:05:38.540 the, like, early visual art that you really loved 00:05:38.540 --> 00:05:43.480 as a kid? Salvador Dali definitely would be one 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:46.060 of the first ones. Really? My parents have some 00:05:46.060 --> 00:05:48.379 limited edition lithographs. They were, like, 00:05:48.379 --> 00:05:52.319 signed lithographs. I have a friend who has one. 00:05:52.740 --> 00:05:55.680 I think it's, like, a pencil sketch, and they 00:05:55.680 --> 00:05:58.480 have it in their guest house. So when people 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:00.160 come to stay. They better trust those guests 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:03.480 not to take that. Definitely. But, yeah, this 00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:06.990 one had. like a weird head with a tongue sticking 00:06:06.990 --> 00:06:13.009 out and a daisy with eggs, like cooked eggs, 00:06:13.149 --> 00:06:16.170 and they were dripping off of it. But yeah, I 00:06:16.170 --> 00:06:19.089 think it's actually from a Don Quixote series. 00:06:19.410 --> 00:06:22.050 Okay. But so we have this whole collection. And 00:06:22.050 --> 00:06:25.230 then a few years ago, I found some paperwork 00:06:25.230 --> 00:06:26.930 from where they had bought it from a gallery 00:06:26.930 --> 00:06:29.250 in South Carolina. And it was like basically 00:06:29.250 --> 00:06:32.389 saying, oh, we'll buy them back at $500 each. 00:06:33.100 --> 00:06:36.160 If you decide you don't like them, but I think 00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:37.939 they're worth more than that now, but it's just 00:06:37.939 --> 00:06:41.560 funny. Yes, 500. Here, give me my phone. So I 00:06:41.560 --> 00:06:42.920 think they're worth a bit more than that now. 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:45.759 Probably. Yeah. Have you ever made it to the 00:06:45.759 --> 00:06:47.879 Dali Museum down in St. Petersburg? I have not. 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:50.199 I have not. At one point, my husband Chris and 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:53.060 I were talking about doing that, but every, I 00:06:53.060 --> 00:06:54.819 don't know. It is definitely worth the trip. 00:06:54.819 --> 00:06:56.620 We haven't traveled in a while, put it that way. 00:06:56.720 --> 00:06:58.579 It is definitely worth the trip if you're ever 00:06:58.579 --> 00:07:03.470 able to make it. It's not only. is a really cool 00:07:03.470 --> 00:07:05.569 collection but the way they built they put it 00:07:05.569 --> 00:07:07.949 all in a new building probably about 15 years 00:07:07.949 --> 00:07:10.970 ago now but the building is really beautiful 00:07:10.970 --> 00:07:14.089 you can see pictures of the outside of the building 00:07:14.089 --> 00:07:17.490 but also the way that they've hung the paintings 00:07:17.490 --> 00:07:21.149 and the way you're able to view them like the 00:07:21.149 --> 00:07:23.649 Abraham Lincoln the famous Abraham Lincoln one 00:07:23.649 --> 00:07:27.610 the first time you see it up close if you follow 00:07:27.610 --> 00:07:30.589 like the correct kind of path and then like later 00:07:31.310 --> 00:07:34.550 you turn a corner and you're all the way across 00:07:34.550 --> 00:07:37.589 like the entire museum from it and so it's so 00:07:37.589 --> 00:07:40.029 you get to see both perspectives like he intended 00:07:40.029 --> 00:07:44.709 and and so that's just like one example it's 00:07:44.709 --> 00:07:47.870 it's a really well done museum i would definitely 00:07:47.870 --> 00:07:49.949 love to check it out and then there's one in 00:07:49.949 --> 00:07:53.750 spain also oh is there a friend of my mom's went 00:07:53.750 --> 00:07:56.769 to years ago and she brought me back a postcard 00:07:56.769 --> 00:07:59.350 from that so that was cool i still have the postcard 00:07:59.899 --> 00:08:01.600 Is that, I'm guessing, a love that's continued, 00:08:01.720 --> 00:08:06.220 it sounds like, into your later life? Yeah. Years 00:08:06.220 --> 00:08:08.980 ago, they had a really cool exhibit at the High 00:08:08.980 --> 00:08:14.699 Museum. Yeah. With all sorts of artwork that 00:08:14.699 --> 00:08:17.220 I hadn't seen before. The Dali exhibit, apparently, 00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:21.300 I guess it was Mondrian that Dali just hated. 00:08:21.839 --> 00:08:23.839 Or at least pretended to hate. And there was 00:08:23.839 --> 00:08:27.519 a short film of him basically dissing Mondrian. 00:08:29.060 --> 00:08:32.279 he's he's one who he's famous for doing like 00:08:32.279 --> 00:08:36.379 basically squares so almost the opposite of dolly 00:08:36.379 --> 00:08:39.480 with his super realism that he was working in 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:45.080 yeah but yeah he was dissing mondrian and i don't 00:08:45.080 --> 00:08:47.559 you always have to wonder if it was like just 00:08:47.559 --> 00:08:49.320 for show or if he really felt that way but he 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:51.299 did seem like he felt that way but i thought 00:08:51.299 --> 00:08:54.820 that was a funny thing to include in the in the 00:08:54.820 --> 00:08:58.960 exhibits so did you start painting or drawing 00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:01.899 or anything like that at a young age yes very 00:09:01.899 --> 00:09:04.759 much don't even remember really when i started 00:09:04.759 --> 00:09:08.899 but my mom had at one point been an art major 00:09:08.899 --> 00:09:11.120 in college and then i guess she switched to being 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:13.500 an english major but so she still had a lot of 00:09:13.500 --> 00:09:16.120 artistic talent and so she started giving me 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:21.220 art lessons when i was a toddler so this definitely 00:09:21.220 --> 00:09:24.860 and i've talked about this in a few of my creativity 00:09:24.860 --> 00:09:29.139 tip videos But I started out with a real advantage, 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:31.820 like, by the time starting school, I don't know 00:09:31.820 --> 00:09:35.240 if I had any real ability or not, but I had training. 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:38.700 So, like, I come into kindergarten, and I'm, 00:09:38.700 --> 00:09:42.460 like, several years ahead, basically, compared 00:09:42.460 --> 00:09:46.899 to other children as far as being able to depict 00:09:46.899 --> 00:09:50.120 something and draw it realistically. So, yeah, 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:54.080 I definitely had an advantage with moms training 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:57.120 me. Because she knew what she was doing with 00:09:57.120 --> 00:10:01.299 that. Yeah, yeah. And I'm guessing also, like, 00:10:01.340 --> 00:10:04.779 the materials were always around, too. I didn't 00:10:04.779 --> 00:10:07.539 do oil paints. I work in oil painting now. And 00:10:07.539 --> 00:10:09.820 she actually still had her art supplies from 00:10:09.820 --> 00:10:12.340 college. And in fact, they're still in the house, 00:10:12.399 --> 00:10:16.320 I think. I did wind up taking some of the oil 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:19.879 paints at one point. But I never worked in oils. 00:10:20.699 --> 00:10:23.240 when I was a child, mostly because of the solvents. 00:10:23.240 --> 00:10:26.059 So we had all sorts of watercolors and colored 00:10:26.059 --> 00:10:28.519 pencils and graphite, but watercolor was what 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:31.519 I would use for painting. And we had a whole, 00:10:31.700 --> 00:10:35.080 in the house, a utility room that was basically 00:10:35.080 --> 00:10:37.179 a laundry room, but it had for my sister and 00:10:37.179 --> 00:10:42.100 for me, we each had an area to sit and like counter 00:10:42.100 --> 00:10:46.299 space to just work on art. So one thing I've 00:10:46.299 --> 00:10:48.830 always been... curious about when it comes to 00:10:48.830 --> 00:10:53.529 to to painting in particular is when it comes 00:10:53.529 --> 00:10:56.289 to the act of painting i understand like how 00:10:56.289 --> 00:10:59.490 they look differently but how do the different 00:10:59.490 --> 00:11:04.529 types of paint paint differently oh that's a 00:11:04.529 --> 00:11:07.350 really great question they are completely different 00:11:07.350 --> 00:11:11.690 because oil paints you can blend really well 00:11:11.690 --> 00:11:14.250 and then if you're not using stuff if you're 00:11:14.250 --> 00:11:16.850 not using a medium to make it dry faster which 00:11:16.850 --> 00:11:20.570 I don't because it's super toxic like it'll what 00:11:20.570 --> 00:11:23.289 is that I'm sorry what does that mean a solvent 00:11:23.289 --> 00:11:28.269 a medium yeah yeah oh okay so hey at least it 00:11:28.269 --> 00:11:30.750 wasn't me I thought I was going to do that there 00:11:30.750 --> 00:11:32.269 are different things that you can add to oil 00:11:32.269 --> 00:11:35.190 paints to make them either dry faster or dry 00:11:35.190 --> 00:11:39.379 slower whatever it is that you want But it takes 00:11:39.379 --> 00:11:42.580 a while. In a painting session, nothing's going 00:11:42.580 --> 00:11:45.019 to be dry, so I can keep blending and mixing 00:11:45.019 --> 00:11:49.039 stuff. Whereas I tried a few paintings in acrylics, 00:11:49.039 --> 00:11:53.399 and I even did a signboard. I got a grant from 00:11:53.399 --> 00:11:56.340 Oconee Cultural Arts Foundation, I don't know, 00:11:56.379 --> 00:11:58.700 maybe 10 years ago, to do an outdoor signboard. 00:11:58.759 --> 00:12:01.320 And to do it in time, it had to be in acrylics. 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:05.059 And I was asking an old friend of mine who did 00:12:05.059 --> 00:12:08.320 murals for advice, but it was... frustrating 00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:11.419 with the acrylics because it would it dries right 00:12:11.419 --> 00:12:13.379 away so it's hard to blend but then it's not 00:12:13.379 --> 00:12:15.580 completely dry so then you're like going back 00:12:15.580 --> 00:12:18.299 over it and it's lifting it up and i'm like how 00:12:18.299 --> 00:12:21.879 does anybody work with this because i had done 00:12:21.879 --> 00:12:26.639 like one one or two when i was like out of school 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:31.200 and i used to airbrush i used to do pet portraits 00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:35.200 using airbrushed watercolor on top of colored 00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:37.929 pencil Oh, interesting. I don't think I've ever 00:12:37.929 --> 00:12:41.049 heard of that. I don't do that anymore, but yeah, 00:12:41.330 --> 00:12:45.570 just some things I learned in school. So should 00:12:45.570 --> 00:12:49.070 I talk about, since this is over -educated, should 00:12:49.070 --> 00:12:51.450 I talk about my education? The origin of the 00:12:51.450 --> 00:12:54.570 name, first of all, I think it's commentary on 00:12:54.570 --> 00:12:58.549 the state of a lot of artists in general. I agree 00:12:58.549 --> 00:13:00.850 with that. But it's also a place I've always 00:13:00.850 --> 00:13:05.789 been stuck in. I found myself between a rock 00:13:05.789 --> 00:13:09.669 and a hard place, where I was overqualified for 00:13:09.669 --> 00:13:12.090 a lot of positions and underqualified for a lot 00:13:12.090 --> 00:13:16.950 of positions. And I always felt like that. And 00:13:16.950 --> 00:13:20.929 then Lee Baines III put out a song called Centerville, 00:13:21.009 --> 00:13:25.409 a line in it that says, we're overeducated and 00:13:25.409 --> 00:13:29.350 we're underemployed. And so he let me use that 00:13:29.350 --> 00:13:32.509 as the title. Because it's something that I always 00:13:32.509 --> 00:13:36.490 related to. Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, no, I think, 00:13:36.490 --> 00:13:38.149 honestly, like, one of the things that's always 00:13:38.149 --> 00:13:40.450 fascinated me, especially as a historian, too, 00:13:40.730 --> 00:13:43.309 was, like, is kind of, like, the chemistry of 00:13:43.309 --> 00:13:47.909 these, of art, because that goes into the restoration, 00:13:48.230 --> 00:13:52.230 the preservation, and that sort of thing of older 00:13:52.230 --> 00:13:56.679 art pieces. But also just, like... sheer curiosity 00:13:56.679 --> 00:14:00.639 about what paint does and how. I try to use stuff 00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:03.539 that isn't extremely toxic. I definitely don't 00:14:03.539 --> 00:14:07.200 use turpentine, but I think it was watercolorists 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:10.740 that in, now see, I'm not an art historian, so 00:14:10.740 --> 00:14:14.559 forgive me anybody if I'm giving the dates wrong, 00:14:14.679 --> 00:14:18.879 but I think it was basically like late 19th century, 00:14:19.059 --> 00:14:21.279 maybe mid to late 19th century, but there were 00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:25.019 like all these different artists would get all 00:14:25.019 --> 00:14:28.820 sorts of ailments from the watercolors they were 00:14:28.820 --> 00:14:31.539 using. But then there was even, like, I think, 00:14:31.539 --> 00:14:35.299 a color that was used in wallpaper that was popular 00:14:35.299 --> 00:14:38.279 at the time, and it would mold or something and 00:14:38.279 --> 00:14:42.679 release. I don't know, there were fumes. There 00:14:42.679 --> 00:14:44.960 was arsenic in something, maybe the green, I 00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:46.740 don't know. One thing I've heard a lot about 00:14:46.740 --> 00:14:51.000 is, like, old Disney artists that were... doing 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:53.100 like the backgrounds for the animated movies 00:14:53.100 --> 00:14:56.519 and doing like spray for the background. Oh, 00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:58.539 you would definitely want to wear a particle 00:14:58.539 --> 00:15:01.019 mask. And a lot of the times they were not provided 00:15:01.019 --> 00:15:04.600 with that protection back then. And so a lot 00:15:04.600 --> 00:15:06.779 of them were getting lung cancer and horrible 00:15:06.779 --> 00:15:09.200 things like that. I definitely don't dispute 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:11.299 that, but I will say this, that there were these 00:15:11.299 --> 00:15:14.919 special desks made for Disney animators. And 00:15:14.919 --> 00:15:18.240 one of the features was that it had a place for 00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:20.720 them to put down their cigarette. And I mean, 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:23.340 we're talking like the 30s. Right, exactly. They 00:15:23.340 --> 00:15:27.620 actually had a little drawer that was made for 00:15:27.620 --> 00:15:30.279 holding alcohol. How are they going to drink 00:15:30.279 --> 00:15:32.679 their alcohol and smoke their cigarettes? They've 00:15:32.679 --> 00:15:35.419 got that pesky protective equipment on. Exactly. 00:15:36.120 --> 00:15:39.840 But no, when I would airbrush watercolors on 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:43.139 top of color pencil, yes, in class. And then, 00:15:43.159 --> 00:15:44.879 of course, at home, we're always required to 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:50.090 wear just like a particle mask. super like your 00:15:50.090 --> 00:15:53.210 respirator no yeah not like you're going into 00:15:53.210 --> 00:15:56.169 the chemical warfare or anything but although 00:15:56.169 --> 00:15:59.250 that might be a cool picture just you in front 00:15:59.250 --> 00:16:03.330 of me spraying especially in these times i know 00:16:03.330 --> 00:16:05.870 yeah that's but yeah i don't i haven't airbrushed 00:16:05.870 --> 00:16:10.490 in a long time at this point you were painting 00:16:10.490 --> 00:16:15.840 drawing from the get -go how did you find your 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:18.580 voice. I don't know what the right word for it 00:16:18.580 --> 00:16:21.659 would be with visual art. Yeah, voice. Is that 00:16:21.659 --> 00:16:26.559 right? Okay. As far as in the art world with 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:32.019 a capital A, they like to be able to see a painting 00:16:32.019 --> 00:16:34.500 or whatever and recognize what artist did it. 00:16:34.519 --> 00:16:38.519 Right. Having a real variety of styles isn't 00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:40.279 necessarily considered a good thing in the art 00:16:40.279 --> 00:16:43.820 world with a capital A. I can't call myself an 00:16:43.820 --> 00:16:45.879 outsider artist, but obviously I don't have a 00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:49.379 huge gallery representation, and I'm not in museums 00:16:49.379 --> 00:16:51.320 or anything, and that's not really the track 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:54.360 that I'm going on. It doesn't usually happen 00:16:54.360 --> 00:16:57.460 until... Until after you're dead. Yeah, that's 00:16:57.460 --> 00:16:58.980 exactly what I was going to say. I'm so glad 00:16:58.980 --> 00:17:01.580 you finished it for me. I was like, how morbid 00:17:01.580 --> 00:17:04.759 can we get here? If you've looked at some of 00:17:04.759 --> 00:17:06.759 my artwork, some of it can be really morbid. 00:17:08.420 --> 00:17:11.970 I'm excited. We're going to get into that. for 00:17:11.970 --> 00:17:16.809 sure and that's part of what your voice you would 00:17:16.809 --> 00:17:19.529 say your voice is that you there is like a darkness 00:17:19.529 --> 00:17:23.710 well a lot of the voice does come from the the 00:17:23.710 --> 00:17:26.609 school that i have because i'm actually i have 00:17:26.609 --> 00:17:29.589 a i was a medical illustrator my very first job 00:17:29.589 --> 00:17:32.150 was as a veterinary illustrator at the auburn 00:17:32.150 --> 00:17:35.490 university vet school but so i have a master's 00:17:35.490 --> 00:17:39.230 degree in medical illustration and and that involved 00:17:39.230 --> 00:17:42.230 that was at the medical college of georgia in 00:17:42.230 --> 00:17:44.630 augusta now it's augusta university or part of 00:17:44.630 --> 00:17:47.490 augusta university there was the cadaver lab 00:17:47.490 --> 00:17:50.690 so like we had to there were eight of us in my 00:17:50.690 --> 00:17:53.630 class although one dropped out after the first 00:17:53.630 --> 00:17:58.009 medical exam the first gross anatomy exam yeah 00:17:58.009 --> 00:18:02.849 but yeah we had cadaver lab and there were like 00:18:02.849 --> 00:18:05.430 50 it was with the med students that were on 00:18:05.430 --> 00:18:09.440 the track to be doctors and there were 50, there 00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:12.680 were, so there were 200 students that were taking 00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:15.299 gross anatomy. So there were, I guess there were 00:18:15.299 --> 00:18:17.019 50 cadavers. Wait, am I doing the math right? 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:19.539 Something like that, yeah. There were two rooms 00:18:19.539 --> 00:18:21.460 full of cadavers. You're an artist, not a mathematician. 00:18:22.059 --> 00:18:26.240 I also, I draw pictures because I can't communicate 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:31.279 verbally, so. Nobody ever, that's a joke. I think 00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:33.960 you're doing great. That's a joke, and I say 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:36.240 that to people from time to time, and not one 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:39.789 person has ever been like. I guess that's true. 00:18:39.950 --> 00:18:43.769 I can see. So anyway, what was I saying? But 00:18:43.769 --> 00:18:47.630 yeah, so we had all these cadavers in the lab 00:18:47.630 --> 00:18:52.549 and two dissection teams. So we had four, like 00:18:52.549 --> 00:18:55.230 we would alternate days. So there were four, 00:18:55.230 --> 00:18:58.769 like the like med students that would dissect 00:18:58.769 --> 00:19:02.089 the cadaver one day. And then four medical illustrators 00:19:02.089 --> 00:19:04.430 came in like the other, like it was alternating. 00:19:04.630 --> 00:19:08.380 And we each had our cadaver. Where it was just 00:19:08.380 --> 00:19:13.460 the, so you're on the same cadaver and ours didn't 00:19:13.460 --> 00:19:16.039 have a stomach. He had been a pest control man 00:19:16.039 --> 00:19:19.140 and he died at 48 from cancer. Wow. Probably 00:19:19.140 --> 00:19:21.700 related to all the poison that he was spraying. 00:19:22.339 --> 00:19:27.640 If you want to talk about not having tools to 00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:30.420 help keep you safe. I'm curious, did you form 00:19:30.420 --> 00:19:34.500 like a sort of personal connection with the cadaver? 00:19:35.629 --> 00:19:38.329 Working with the same one over time? I mean, 00:19:38.369 --> 00:19:41.130 I feel like you'd have to in some way, in a weird 00:19:41.130 --> 00:19:44.829 way. Yeah, I mean, it was like our cadaver, and 00:19:44.829 --> 00:19:47.970 he had almost no fat on him. Did you know his 00:19:47.970 --> 00:19:51.630 name? And I'm not asking you to share it. They 00:19:51.630 --> 00:19:55.630 never post the name. Okay. They tried to depersonalize. 00:19:55.750 --> 00:19:57.609 Like, I'm asking for that. No, they didn't necessarily 00:19:57.609 --> 00:19:59.269 try to depersonalize. I think it was just for 00:19:59.269 --> 00:20:01.589 privacy, but they did at one point put up. the 00:20:01.589 --> 00:20:03.130 details which is how that i knew that he was 00:20:03.130 --> 00:20:05.569 48 years old and had died he'd been a pest in 00:20:05.569 --> 00:20:08.069 pest control and that he had stomach cancer but 00:20:08.069 --> 00:20:11.630 he had no stomach and a few of his anatomical 00:20:11.630 --> 00:20:13.829 structures were fused together and he had no 00:20:13.829 --> 00:20:18.329 fat on him because a lot most of the most cadavers 00:20:18.329 --> 00:20:20.390 if you die normally you're gonna have some body 00:20:20.390 --> 00:20:23.289 fat and you're having to like clean it out like 00:20:23.289 --> 00:20:28.609 two structures and our poor dude he had no fat 00:20:28.609 --> 00:20:32.529 on him so Can we back up for a minute? Okay, 00:20:32.529 --> 00:20:34.329 yeah. We'll take it off of the connect, because 00:20:34.329 --> 00:20:36.730 anybody who, people are probably not expecting 00:20:36.730 --> 00:20:38.509 it to get this far. Yeah, yeah. But, I mean, 00:20:38.509 --> 00:20:41.970 we can, you're fine. But I'm actually really 00:20:41.970 --> 00:20:46.470 curious about what the kind of, what kind of 00:20:46.470 --> 00:20:49.690 led you, first of all, I didn't even know that 00:20:49.690 --> 00:20:53.809 it's obvious that it has to, but I didn't even 00:20:53.809 --> 00:20:57.130 think about the fact that medical artists were, 00:20:57.390 --> 00:20:59.269 like, that you go to school for that, right? 00:20:59.710 --> 00:21:03.619 Yeah. Two, there's two schools of thought, I 00:21:03.619 --> 00:21:05.579 think, as far as if you're trying to do realistic 00:21:05.579 --> 00:21:10.339 art. And one is that if you just draw or paint 00:21:10.339 --> 00:21:12.539 or whatever, exactly what it's going to come 00:21:12.539 --> 00:21:15.059 out looking accurate, looking like you want to 00:21:15.059 --> 00:21:16.779 look. And then the other school of thought, which 00:21:16.779 --> 00:21:18.380 obviously would apply to medical illustration, 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:20.539 is that you really should have an understanding 00:21:20.539 --> 00:21:23.140 of what it is that you're drawing or painting. 00:21:23.740 --> 00:21:26.480 I probably lean, obviously, from my schooling, 00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:28.599 lean towards the understanding of the anatomy. 00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:33.289 Right. I think that's, like, fascinating and 00:21:33.289 --> 00:21:35.470 great. And also, like, I'm thinking about, like, 00:21:35.509 --> 00:21:41.130 people who paint horses, right? I used to paint 00:21:41.130 --> 00:21:44.930 horses. So I think understanding the anatomy 00:21:44.930 --> 00:21:47.450 of the horse is super important because, like, 00:21:47.470 --> 00:21:50.769 otherwise, like, my muscles look weird. There's 00:21:50.769 --> 00:21:52.750 all these, like, things that just, like, you 00:21:52.750 --> 00:21:55.410 get into that uncanny valley kind of thing where 00:21:55.410 --> 00:21:58.589 it's, yeah, it looks almost like a horse, but 00:21:58.589 --> 00:22:02.130 not quite. But what I really want to get into 00:22:02.130 --> 00:22:05.369 though is like what led to the decision to go 00:22:05.369 --> 00:22:08.869 to school to be a medical illustrator. Because 00:22:08.869 --> 00:22:12.890 I think this is like a unique thing and I'm not 00:22:12.890 --> 00:22:17.970 sure like how much of your voice was shaped by 00:22:17.970 --> 00:22:20.309 your schooling and how much your voice led to 00:22:20.309 --> 00:22:22.490 your schooling. It was definitely a little from 00:22:22.490 --> 00:22:25.529 column A, a little from column B. My dad was 00:22:25.529 --> 00:22:27.750 a surgeon. He was a urologist with a private 00:22:27.750 --> 00:22:32.059 practice. discouraged me and my sister from ever 00:22:32.059 --> 00:22:36.000 wanting to meet doctors because it is it's like 00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:38.319 you're you really do have to be available 24 00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:42.160 7 and we only lived up we lived like five minutes 00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:44.460 from the hospital even on saturdays and sundays 00:22:44.460 --> 00:22:46.839 he would have to go in he'd drive into the hospital 00:22:46.839 --> 00:22:49.940 and make his rounds and see his patients and 00:22:49.940 --> 00:22:53.400 if he wanted to take off time to travel somewhere 00:22:53.400 --> 00:22:56.200 obviously you take a financial hit because he 00:22:56.200 --> 00:22:58.660 would have to stop doing any surgical procedures 00:22:59.679 --> 00:23:02.779 for maybe a couple weeks leading up to in case 00:23:02.779 --> 00:23:05.240 somebody had a problem he didn't want to be out 00:23:05.240 --> 00:23:07.619 of town and then a patient had a problem because 00:23:07.619 --> 00:23:09.960 we lived in a small town so he was the only urologist 00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:13.779 there but i had an interest in medical stuff 00:23:13.779 --> 00:23:17.099 and like coming from a scientific family and 00:23:17.099 --> 00:23:20.160 my parents were from chicago my dad was from 00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:23.279 the south side of chicago and he was in the army 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:25.420 and we moved around and we wound up in south 00:23:25.420 --> 00:23:29.160 carolina And in a very small town in South Carolina, 00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:32.000 in the middle of the woods and swamp. And my 00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:33.779 parents loved it. And my dad especially loved 00:23:33.779 --> 00:23:36.779 it. And he got like really into nature. So I 00:23:36.779 --> 00:23:40.059 definitely had the parents like, okay, art and 00:23:40.059 --> 00:23:44.220 nature and then medicine. So all of these things 00:23:44.220 --> 00:23:48.799 coming together. And one thing that I loved when 00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:52.200 I was little was the, I think the brand is the 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:57.799 Golden Nature Field Guides. to think what kind 00:23:57.799 --> 00:24:00.920 of kid is into this but this is actually inspiring 00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:04.519 what i'm working on for this year a project that's 00:24:04.519 --> 00:24:07.480 probably going to take all year but these these 00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:11.180 field guides have like very realistic color paintings 00:24:11.180 --> 00:24:13.880 in them of different things one of my favorites 00:24:13.880 --> 00:24:16.920 is the non -flowering plants with mushrooms and 00:24:16.920 --> 00:24:20.259 ferns and mosses i was always really into mosses 00:24:20.259 --> 00:24:25.809 and so it it has like little paragraphs about 00:24:25.809 --> 00:24:27.750 how to identify each thing. And then a really 00:24:27.750 --> 00:24:31.490 well done, a really nicely done color painting 00:24:31.490 --> 00:24:34.829 of everything. So that was always a part of my 00:24:34.829 --> 00:24:39.309 aesthetic. And then when I found out that scientific 00:24:39.309 --> 00:24:42.089 illustration existed, that was when I was in 00:24:42.089 --> 00:24:46.490 college and I was just an art major and like 00:24:46.490 --> 00:24:48.029 just drawing, I was in drawing and painting. 00:24:48.390 --> 00:24:54.019 And I ran into a girl. at a concert at the omni 00:24:54.019 --> 00:24:58.220 it was the rap concert yeah no i've seen i saw 00:24:58.220 --> 00:25:02.380 right which is embarrassing but so i went personally 00:25:02.380 --> 00:25:05.500 i went to this concert and i saw this girl that 00:25:05.500 --> 00:25:08.319 i recognized there and then she actually lived 00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:11.500 on my dorm and i taught her afterwards and she 00:25:11.500 --> 00:25:13.460 was like oh i'm in this program called scientific 00:25:13.460 --> 00:25:16.559 illustration i was like what what is this scientific 00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:19.400 illustration of which you speak and so it was 00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:23.200 combining science and art basically So we went 00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:25.119 to this concert and it was the Omni, which held 00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:27.420 a lot of people. And I was surprised that I recognized 00:25:27.420 --> 00:25:31.359 this girl who I'd seen in my dorm. But later 00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:34.140 on, we were talking about the concert like the 00:25:34.140 --> 00:25:35.720 next week or something. And that's where she 00:25:35.720 --> 00:25:37.779 told me that her major was scientific illustration. 00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:41.500 And I was like, huh. And I also talk about underemployed. 00:25:41.500 --> 00:25:45.079 Like, I will say that I was like, OK, my parents 00:25:45.079 --> 00:25:47.519 will be happy to hear that because that did sound 00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:51.869 like more of a track to a job. Yeah. where i 00:25:51.869 --> 00:25:54.910 could use because i was like oh wow i can just 00:25:54.910 --> 00:26:03.430 draw drawn paints mosses or mushrooms or a human 00:26:03.430 --> 00:26:06.450 bone or something and so it almost reminds me 00:26:06.450 --> 00:26:09.910 of like a morbid version of a police sketch artist 00:26:09.910 --> 00:26:12.990 i think the police sketch artist is more morbid 00:26:12.990 --> 00:26:18.529 if you ask me but because because they're trying 00:26:18.529 --> 00:26:20.740 to like and i don't know how do you do it and 00:26:20.740 --> 00:26:23.539 you're like okay did he what did his nose look 00:26:23.539 --> 00:26:26.039 like yeah i imagine they must have these questions 00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:28.700 that they asked and i've never had to like it's 00:26:28.700 --> 00:26:32.279 like a really up version of guess who yeah the 00:26:32.279 --> 00:26:35.039 card i don't know i remember there was what was 00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:37.119 the show there was this show that was on there 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:39.339 were like three episodes of it like bakersfield 00:26:39.339 --> 00:26:41.859 pd and they had the police sketch artist and 00:26:41.859 --> 00:26:44.309 he'd be like does this look familiar and they'd 00:26:44.309 --> 00:26:46.210 be like oh blue eyes or something and he was 00:26:46.210 --> 00:26:47.990 just like sketching celebrities i don't know 00:26:47.990 --> 00:26:51.170 but so i never did learn what the method is that 00:26:51.170 --> 00:26:55.089 they use for that but i'm sure there's some really 00:26:55.089 --> 00:26:58.329 they must have some super duper training for 00:26:58.329 --> 00:27:01.849 that but so did you have like a morbid curiosity 00:27:01.849 --> 00:27:05.269 growing up aside from the medical interest or 00:27:05.269 --> 00:27:08.829 was it pretty much strictly from your dad being 00:27:08.829 --> 00:27:10.829 a surgeon i think it was more just medical and 00:27:10.829 --> 00:27:14.940 scientific I wasn't ever... You're not into horror 00:27:14.940 --> 00:27:18.740 movies? Do you ever see these things about creepy 00:27:18.740 --> 00:27:22.759 stuff that little kids say? Like, how do I take 00:27:22.759 --> 00:27:24.700 your bones out? And stuff like that to their 00:27:24.700 --> 00:27:26.680 parents when they're like 10 years old and the 00:27:26.680 --> 00:27:28.619 parents are like, what? And this is precisely 00:27:28.619 --> 00:27:31.940 why I don't have children. You're scared of them? 00:27:32.180 --> 00:27:34.640 Yeah, they would murder me in my sleep if they 00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:37.400 could, I think. Is there any stories like that 00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:41.089 about you? Is that what you're leading to? I 00:27:41.089 --> 00:27:43.029 have a feeling that like my parents would have 00:27:43.029 --> 00:27:45.269 whitewashed this if there was something like 00:27:45.269 --> 00:27:51.250 that. Fair enough. So, yeah. So at what point 00:27:51.250 --> 00:27:55.150 did you realize that you, and I'm still working 00:27:55.150 --> 00:27:58.529 back a little bit from you starting school, but 00:27:58.529 --> 00:28:01.230 at what point did you realize that you wanted 00:28:01.230 --> 00:28:04.089 to be a professional artist? Was that always 00:28:04.089 --> 00:28:08.009 or was there like a turning point as a kid? Yeah. 00:28:08.589 --> 00:28:12.170 It's like the knowing, not necessarily knowing 00:28:12.170 --> 00:28:14.529 about the professional part, but just knowing 00:28:14.529 --> 00:28:16.890 that I'm an artist in the same way that from 00:28:16.890 --> 00:28:20.450 as a toddler that I knew that I was female. And 00:28:20.450 --> 00:28:22.349 I hope it's okay to say that because I know some 00:28:22.349 --> 00:28:26.769 people are with it being on a spectrum. Well, 00:28:26.769 --> 00:28:29.789 no, I think, you know, maybe not at toddlerhood, 00:28:29.849 --> 00:28:32.349 but I think a lot of people that have transitioned 00:28:32.349 --> 00:28:36.430 genders. Probably by age five. Yeah, at a very 00:28:36.430 --> 00:28:39.619 young age. So I don't think that's an unfair 00:28:39.619 --> 00:28:42.240 analogy. Yeah, like that there were like things 00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:44.799 that I knew about myself from like age two or 00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:48.900 three, probably. And like that I knew I was female 00:28:48.900 --> 00:28:51.599 and I knew that I was an artist in the same way, 00:28:51.660 --> 00:28:53.880 which is like a really strong feeling that, yes, 00:28:53.880 --> 00:28:55.759 I'm an artist. But at that point, I wasn't really 00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:59.059 thinking about being a professional because I 00:28:59.059 --> 00:29:02.619 had bank of mom and dad. Were there other things 00:29:02.619 --> 00:29:05.269 that you... when you were a kid, like, what do 00:29:05.269 --> 00:29:07.269 you want to be when you grow up or anything like 00:29:07.269 --> 00:29:11.130 that? I guess not. I may have at some point said 00:29:11.130 --> 00:29:14.730 doctor. And I will say every single person in 00:29:14.730 --> 00:29:16.849 the medical, all eight of us that then turned 00:29:16.849 --> 00:29:19.190 seven in my medical illustration class, when 00:29:19.190 --> 00:29:21.289 we were in there taking gross anatomy, all of 00:29:21.289 --> 00:29:25.569 us had to face the question, should we be doctors 00:29:25.569 --> 00:29:28.549 instead? We would have had to reapply and all 00:29:28.549 --> 00:29:31.309 that. Right, right. Hadn't taken all the necessary 00:29:31.309 --> 00:29:34.009 classes, but like all of us were like, really 00:29:34.009 --> 00:29:36.609 into it should we yeah should we be doctors but 00:29:36.609 --> 00:29:40.250 but yeah i'm sorry what was the question i'm 00:29:40.250 --> 00:29:44.549 trying to figure out if you ever had a time where 00:29:44.549 --> 00:29:49.130 you wanted to be something else or olympic sprinter 00:29:49.130 --> 00:29:53.029 okay okay i was very fast as a child and then 00:29:53.029 --> 00:29:56.569 i wound up with all sorts of issues with my feet 00:29:56.569 --> 00:29:59.049 and my knees and my hips where it just was not 00:29:59.049 --> 00:30:03.819 going to happen but boy i was like Up until puberty 00:30:03.819 --> 00:30:07.539 hit and I had all these weird things wrong with 00:30:07.539 --> 00:30:11.359 me, I was like so fast. That was the only other 00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:13.579 thing was just being an Olympic sprinter. Were 00:30:13.579 --> 00:30:17.980 you into the outdoors or were you just into running? 00:30:18.019 --> 00:30:21.859 And also, if I use the word survivalist, I think 00:30:21.859 --> 00:30:25.779 now it has a different connotation. I don't know, 00:30:25.779 --> 00:30:27.720 it might be starting to come back around to the 00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:31.420 left. But to be able to survive in the wilderness. 00:30:32.170 --> 00:30:34.970 And not that I've ever done this, but I remember 00:30:34.970 --> 00:30:38.789 when I was like 10 and 12 years old, I really 00:30:38.789 --> 00:30:40.750 wanted to do a thing called outward bound. Do 00:30:40.750 --> 00:30:42.789 they have that everywhere? I know what it is. 00:30:42.829 --> 00:30:47.210 I said that my dad was really into nature. They 00:30:47.210 --> 00:30:49.150 might not know what it is, but it's basically 00:30:49.150 --> 00:30:52.289 just like a survival challenge. Yeah, and I think 00:30:52.289 --> 00:30:55.190 you had to be at least 16 to do it, but they 00:30:55.190 --> 00:30:58.369 put you out in the woods with just a knife for 00:30:58.369 --> 00:31:01.799 a week, and you're supposed to survive. Which 00:31:01.799 --> 00:31:04.519 really isn't, I don't know, theoretically you 00:31:04.519 --> 00:31:06.039 could go a week without any food at all. I feel 00:31:06.039 --> 00:31:08.980 like that is probably child abuse in some states, 00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:13.240 too. But no, you may have had to be 18, I don't 00:31:13.240 --> 00:31:15.539 know. It was like at least 16, and I was not 00:31:15.539 --> 00:31:17.619 old enough to do it. And then I was off in college 00:31:17.619 --> 00:31:19.960 and didn't think about it anymore. But yeah, 00:31:19.980 --> 00:31:22.579 my dad held all these nature books, and so I 00:31:22.579 --> 00:31:24.500 haven't actually put them into practice, but 00:31:24.500 --> 00:31:27.960 I know different things, like how to make a snare 00:31:27.960 --> 00:31:32.319 out of a sapling. different ways to like set 00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:34.519 a trap to take down a deer and things like that 00:31:34.519 --> 00:31:37.440 but i've never actually used them and i don't 00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:39.819 kill animals have you ever incorporated any of 00:31:39.819 --> 00:31:43.960 that kind of stuff into your art the no like 00:31:43.960 --> 00:31:48.140 the survival the survivalist no because unless 00:31:48.140 --> 00:31:51.579 you count that i can forage for items in the 00:31:51.579 --> 00:31:53.759 woods that i then use in my paintings but that's 00:31:53.759 --> 00:31:55.519 about the extent of it i mean that's actually 00:31:55.519 --> 00:31:57.799 exactly what i meant to be honest with you yeah 00:31:57.799 --> 00:31:59.980 yeah but yeah not leaving a trap or anything 00:31:59.980 --> 00:32:04.339 if i find bones or moth wings or something they're 00:32:04.339 --> 00:32:06.500 just the animal's already dead and it's right 00:32:06.500 --> 00:32:09.920 there on the fourth floor and then i just pick 00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:12.920 it up so that's pretty hard to sing ethically 00:32:12.920 --> 00:32:17.240 no i'm not setting traps for them but no no and 00:32:17.240 --> 00:32:19.599 i was also wondering i've seen some interesting 00:32:19.599 --> 00:32:23.000 art pieces that i guess they were more like sculpture 00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:26.039 type things that incorporated and they were usually 00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:29.339 more of a protest against like animal abuse but 00:32:29.339 --> 00:32:31.819 it would incorporate things like traps or anything 00:32:31.819 --> 00:32:34.799 like that yeah i've done some pieces about animal 00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:37.900 abuse i did one piece that i really liked that 00:32:37.900 --> 00:32:41.640 so i it was a cat skull that my mom found in 00:32:41.640 --> 00:32:43.740 the woods and i'm going to be doing another painting 00:32:43.740 --> 00:32:47.900 with it fairly soon but and then an egg somebody's 00:32:47.900 --> 00:32:51.640 pet chicken had laid an egg and they they let 00:32:51.640 --> 00:32:54.559 me use it and it was like this like a green some 00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:58.819 of these types of chickens that aren't the kind 00:32:58.819 --> 00:33:00.599 where you find their eggs in the grocery stores 00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:02.660 they have different colors so it was a so it 00:33:02.660 --> 00:33:05.480 was called or no i called it some are more equal 00:33:05.480 --> 00:33:08.160 that's what i called it but it was about the 00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:11.220 way that you have some animals that are considered 00:33:11.220 --> 00:33:13.980 pets and then others are considered food yeah 00:33:13.980 --> 00:33:16.519 and i guess the chicken kind of confuses the 00:33:16.519 --> 00:33:18.700 point nowadays because it's like some people 00:33:18.700 --> 00:33:21.269 eat them some people keep them as pets Some people 00:33:21.269 --> 00:33:23.630 will eat them in front of them. Yeah, some people 00:33:23.630 --> 00:33:25.809 eat them and keep them as pets. But not the same 00:33:25.809 --> 00:33:29.430 ones. Hopefully not. I hope not, because it's... 00:33:29.430 --> 00:33:32.589 I just don't think that the chickens that lay 00:33:32.589 --> 00:33:36.670 eggs are good eating. That's all. I think they 00:33:36.670 --> 00:33:38.549 put them in a chicken soup when they're done 00:33:38.549 --> 00:33:41.190 laying eggs. Yeah, there you go. But so anyway, 00:33:41.269 --> 00:33:43.890 so yeah, that's... So yeah, I have had some about 00:33:43.890 --> 00:33:48.220 animal abuse, but... I think like... The industrial 00:33:48.220 --> 00:33:53.420 nature of our farming practices is what has made 00:33:53.420 --> 00:33:58.839 consuming meat really hard to ethically justify 00:33:58.839 --> 00:34:02.740 now, more than anything else. The survivalist 00:34:02.740 --> 00:34:06.779 type aspect of it is a lot different. Put a snare 00:34:06.779 --> 00:34:09.699 and catch a rabbit. At least the rabbit lived 00:34:09.699 --> 00:34:12.840 its life. Yeah, yeah. And also, it was dumb enough 00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:15.219 to get caught. That's right. It wasn't raised 00:34:15.219 --> 00:34:22.690 to be killed. Anyway, so when you're in school 00:34:22.690 --> 00:34:25.969 for medical illustration, what made you decide 00:34:25.969 --> 00:34:28.969 that you definitely weren't going to go and be 00:34:28.969 --> 00:34:32.289 a doctor instead? Was there any point where you 00:34:32.289 --> 00:34:34.829 were like, no, I'm glad I'm here? Or was there 00:34:34.829 --> 00:34:36.829 anything that was like... Just reminding myself 00:34:36.829 --> 00:34:40.050 that I just really like doing art. And then with 00:34:40.050 --> 00:34:42.449 my dad, he was always talking about the extreme 00:34:42.449 --> 00:34:46.619 responsibility of having to be a doctor. Well, 00:34:46.619 --> 00:34:48.559 yeah, it's a lot of pressure. It is. And I think 00:34:48.559 --> 00:34:52.699 especially being a surgeon and with him, that 00:34:52.699 --> 00:34:56.460 you have to make these very fast decisions that 00:34:56.460 --> 00:35:01.199 may or may not kill somebody. Yeah. So, yeah, 00:35:01.340 --> 00:35:04.420 I just was like, yeah, I can't see myself having 00:35:04.420 --> 00:35:07.119 that amount of responsibility and having to have 00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:10.940 somebody's life in my hands. Yeah. What did you 00:35:10.940 --> 00:35:14.400 do after you finished college? So college was 00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:16.920 here at UGA and that was scientific illustration, 00:35:17.159 --> 00:35:18.920 although technically it was interdisciplinary 00:35:18.920 --> 00:35:23.760 studies. They had a program for it, but they 00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:27.320 didn't have it as like a degree. But they had 00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:29.280 classes and they had all sorts of classes and 00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:30.780 everything. And that was where I learned to airbrush. 00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:33.780 And then I went to, 10 days after I graduated, 00:35:33.900 --> 00:35:36.159 started Medical College of Georgia. And that 00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:39.139 was for the master's degree program. And then 00:35:39.139 --> 00:35:42.300 I got a job before I graduated, but I didn't 00:35:42.300 --> 00:35:45.400 graduate, like I said, at the vet school at Auburn 00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:47.820 University. And that was extra fun because that 00:35:47.820 --> 00:35:51.019 was with animals. Yeah. And that's where you 00:35:51.019 --> 00:35:54.280 were doing the horse illustrations? I had been 00:35:54.280 --> 00:35:56.780 painting horses. We had horses when I was growing 00:35:56.780 --> 00:36:00.719 up, so I was painting horses for a long time. 00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:03.099 That was the main thing that I would tend to 00:36:03.099 --> 00:36:05.380 paint. So that was a thing you were passionate 00:36:05.380 --> 00:36:10.610 about? early on okay did you find it particularly 00:36:10.610 --> 00:36:15.309 because i think horses historically in art like 00:36:15.309 --> 00:36:17.449 it's something that people have talked about 00:36:17.449 --> 00:36:19.869 cats too i think like cats have always looked 00:36:19.869 --> 00:36:22.690 a little bit off until they didn't but there's 00:36:22.690 --> 00:36:25.710 like these animals a couple of groups of animals 00:36:25.710 --> 00:36:28.570 that like artists historically really always 00:36:28.570 --> 00:36:32.349 babies in the medieval like the whole creepy 00:36:32.349 --> 00:36:35.639 and like The baby Jesus, but he looks like he's 00:36:35.639 --> 00:36:38.099 two years old, but he's an infant. That whole 00:36:38.099 --> 00:36:42.820 weirdness. But yeah, horses. I think the main 00:36:42.820 --> 00:36:45.239 thing with horses, and occasionally you will 00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:49.699 find an artist from back then. Have you ever 00:36:49.699 --> 00:36:52.079 seen a horse in your life? And you probably have 00:36:52.079 --> 00:36:54.539 because they were around a lot more. But no, 00:36:54.599 --> 00:36:56.480 there were plenty of artists. And like George 00:36:56.480 --> 00:36:59.320 Stubbs, I guess, was a really good one. And he 00:36:59.320 --> 00:37:01.960 did a great job with the horse, like painting 00:37:01.960 --> 00:37:06.369 horses. But they didn't understand the horse's 00:37:06.369 --> 00:37:10.489 gait. I'm so surprised that they, because if 00:37:10.489 --> 00:37:12.349 you look at all of these old paintings, it's 00:37:12.349 --> 00:37:14.829 always, they have the horse running like a deer 00:37:14.829 --> 00:37:18.849 and both hind feet are on the ground and it's 00:37:18.849 --> 00:37:22.550 leaping or something. I'm really surprised that 00:37:22.550 --> 00:37:24.409 they didn't figure out that it's a little bit 00:37:24.409 --> 00:37:28.190 different than that. But that was how, as, again, 00:37:28.250 --> 00:37:30.510 I'm not an art historian, so hopefully I'm not 00:37:30.510 --> 00:37:32.369 just saying something that's completely incorrect. 00:37:32.860 --> 00:37:35.320 But as far as I understand it, that was the first 00:37:35.320 --> 00:37:38.739 movie made was... Yeah, this is also a podcast, 00:37:38.860 --> 00:37:43.320 not a documentary, so you're fine. I think it 00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:47.340 actually had to do with a vet about how horses 00:37:47.340 --> 00:37:49.340 were actually galloping. So they had a racehorse, 00:37:49.420 --> 00:37:53.260 and they set up cameras, and it finally showed, 00:37:53.380 --> 00:37:55.639 this is how a horse actually gallops, and it 00:37:55.639 --> 00:37:57.500 looks nothing like these artists have been doing. 00:37:58.139 --> 00:38:01.099 Side note, when I was painting horses as a kid 00:38:01.099 --> 00:38:05.949 and as a... young adult i was an expert on the 00:38:05.949 --> 00:38:09.210 gallop the trot the walk and the legs that was 00:38:09.210 --> 00:38:12.190 one of my that was one of my strong things where 00:38:12.190 --> 00:38:15.750 i was i would have considered myself an expert 00:38:15.750 --> 00:38:19.510 on that back then maybe not so much now but so 00:38:19.510 --> 00:38:25.150 sorry 18th century painters sorry y 'all dropped 00:38:25.150 --> 00:38:29.969 the ball so at what point did you uh start to 00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:34.519 find your voice? Was it in college? Was it before 00:38:34.519 --> 00:38:38.920 then? Was it all of the above? It wasn't until 00:38:38.920 --> 00:38:45.139 about 15 or wait yeah 15 it's been 15 years. 00:38:45.739 --> 00:38:48.659 I wasted quite a bit of time. I shouldn't say 00:38:48.659 --> 00:38:50.639 it's a waste but I was trying to develop a technique 00:38:50.639 --> 00:38:54.400 that was like a style of art because everybody 00:38:54.400 --> 00:38:57.000 always says that the most recent thing like that 00:38:57.000 --> 00:39:00.139 was cubism and what I mean by a style of art 00:39:00.139 --> 00:39:04.039 is that if you picture cubism or impressionism, 00:39:04.119 --> 00:39:07.980 for example, and you could look at a still life 00:39:07.980 --> 00:39:10.920 or a portrait or a landscape painted in a cubist 00:39:10.920 --> 00:39:13.119 style or an impressionist style, and you'd be 00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:15.920 like, hey, that's impressionism. And it wasn't 00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:18.000 dependent on the subject matter. And I had come 00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:21.739 up with something that was promising, and I'm 00:39:21.739 --> 00:39:23.539 going to call it like a motion blur technique, 00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:28.820 but I kept trying to develop that. I probably, 00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:30.960 I shouldn't say I wasted it, but like I spent 00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:32.840 several years like trying to work out something 00:39:32.840 --> 00:39:36.940 with that. You feel like you, not wasted, but 00:39:36.940 --> 00:39:38.800 you feel like you just maybe got hung up on the 00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:41.019 technicalities of some things a little bit. Well, 00:39:41.139 --> 00:39:43.239 and then I realized it's like the art isn't, 00:39:43.239 --> 00:39:45.519 the art is about the message of the art and it's 00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:49.400 not really about the technique used. So that's 00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:51.239 why I was like, forget it. I'm just going back 00:39:51.239 --> 00:39:55.239 to realism and worrying about the meaning of 00:39:55.239 --> 00:39:58.059 the piece, the message of the piece. You made 00:39:58.059 --> 00:40:00.900 a video pretty recently about, like, constraint 00:40:00.900 --> 00:40:05.460 being a blessing. Oh, yes, the limits. Do you 00:40:05.460 --> 00:40:08.059 think that was a way of, like, placing a constraint 00:40:08.059 --> 00:40:11.440 on yourself and then taking it off? Or, like, 00:40:11.460 --> 00:40:14.539 how do you think that relates to that experience 00:40:14.539 --> 00:40:17.780 there? I think you were putting constraints on 00:40:17.780 --> 00:40:19.719 yourself by trying to develop a technique. I 00:40:19.719 --> 00:40:23.139 was, yes, I was. And then in that case, though, 00:40:23.179 --> 00:40:27.139 it did help me realize that. The constraint was 00:40:27.139 --> 00:40:30.219 like, okay, it's really not about the technique. 00:40:30.340 --> 00:40:32.179 And even if I come up with this new technique, 00:40:32.519 --> 00:40:38.500 then that's not what I want to do. I'm not explaining 00:40:38.500 --> 00:40:41.920 this very well, am I? No, I think you're fine. 00:40:42.059 --> 00:40:45.719 I think that there's time. So I think about the 00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:49.500 Hollywood Code, for instance, and how there were 00:40:49.500 --> 00:40:51.460 all these things that they were not allowed to 00:40:51.460 --> 00:40:54.769 show. Oh. Right? there are all these constraints 00:40:54.769 --> 00:40:57.469 they had but what happened was like all this 00:40:57.469 --> 00:41:01.630 symbolic imagery they got fireworks to display 00:41:01.630 --> 00:41:04.630 instead of or a train going through a tunnel 00:41:04.630 --> 00:41:07.070 exactly like all of these little like kind of 00:41:07.070 --> 00:41:10.010 visual references that they would that became 00:41:10.010 --> 00:41:14.769 artistic expression because of the rules that 00:41:14.769 --> 00:41:17.530 they had to follow but then there's other times 00:41:17.530 --> 00:41:19.409 where i think when you're like placing artificial 00:41:19.409 --> 00:41:25.500 constraints upon yourself it can be like a detriment. 00:41:26.019 --> 00:41:28.139 How do you know the difference? How do you know 00:41:28.139 --> 00:41:30.320 when to know the difference, I guess? I think 00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:34.340 when you realize that it's not working out like 00:41:34.340 --> 00:41:36.460 you want it to, which would be what happened 00:41:36.460 --> 00:41:38.900 where I was trying to develop the motion blur 00:41:38.900 --> 00:41:42.179 technique. But yeah, I've been happy with the 00:41:42.179 --> 00:41:44.559 constraints that I've added for myself because 00:41:44.559 --> 00:41:47.420 when I started doing these still lifes, and I 00:41:47.420 --> 00:41:50.869 mentioned this in the video, i'm assuming that 00:41:50.869 --> 00:41:53.010 the viewers haven't they'll probably watch it 00:41:53.010 --> 00:41:56.869 after this if you haven't yet but yeah like i 00:41:56.869 --> 00:41:59.969 started doing still lifes of assembled objects 00:41:59.969 --> 00:42:04.469 and i had even bought a couple of like a briar 00:42:04.469 --> 00:42:07.329 like a miniature horse like a model not an actual 00:42:07.329 --> 00:42:10.690 horse i mean like not a little sebastian yeah 00:42:10.690 --> 00:42:15.309 not a little sebastian but but like a little 00:42:15.309 --> 00:42:18.710 horse sculpture and then i had an uh a coffee 00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:23.039 that's like the an unusual animal and I was going 00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:24.659 to put those into still lifes and then right 00:42:24.659 --> 00:42:26.980 away when I did them I decided no I would rather 00:42:26.980 --> 00:42:30.940 just use natural or organic objects and in the 00:42:30.940 --> 00:42:32.820 beginning I would even go to the grocery store 00:42:32.820 --> 00:42:35.159 and I would get like a juicy strawberry and pair 00:42:35.159 --> 00:42:38.420 it with a seashell that I found or like a flower 00:42:38.420 --> 00:42:41.019 or something that I bought in the store and so 00:42:41.019 --> 00:42:43.199 that was one constraint that I had was that it 00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:46.880 has to be something organic. And I found that, 00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:49.179 and that helps you hone, like, what direction 00:42:49.179 --> 00:42:53.539 you're going to. And then after a few years into 00:42:53.539 --> 00:42:56.340 that, I was, I decided that it was only going 00:42:56.340 --> 00:42:58.599 to be, like, forged natural objects, so nothing 00:42:58.599 --> 00:43:01.300 I could buy at a store. Yeah. And it doesn't 00:43:01.300 --> 00:43:03.400 necessarily mean that I have to find it myself, 00:43:03.619 --> 00:43:05.679 because, like I said, I do have the cat skull 00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:08.260 that my mom found, and I have a really cool fossil 00:43:08.260 --> 00:43:11.860 shell that Chris found one time over at the beach. 00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:16.409 But it's... It's stuff that you would find in 00:43:16.409 --> 00:43:19.989 the woods or the swamp or wherever as opposed 00:43:19.989 --> 00:43:22.050 to buying them in the store. And to me, that 00:43:22.050 --> 00:43:26.150 has been really freeing because then it's a matter 00:43:26.150 --> 00:43:29.010 of what I can do with the materials that I find 00:43:29.010 --> 00:43:34.010 and trying to work within my own language, really, 00:43:34.090 --> 00:43:37.570 of using these. So it's been very helpful to 00:43:37.570 --> 00:43:40.590 keep me in direction because I especially think 00:43:40.590 --> 00:43:43.230 with people who are naturally very creative, 00:43:43.719 --> 00:43:46.699 is that they want to go in all different directions 00:43:46.699 --> 00:43:51.380 at one time if you can come up with some constraints 00:43:51.380 --> 00:43:55.460 that you enjoy and that you think gets to the 00:43:55.460 --> 00:43:57.460 heart of the matter then that's good if you find 00:43:57.460 --> 00:44:00.000 that they're too limiting and you're not liking 00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:01.920 you're not having any fun with it or you're not 00:44:01.920 --> 00:44:03.980 being inspired then that would probably be the 00:44:03.980 --> 00:44:06.659 sign to change it but i think i also used the 00:44:06.659 --> 00:44:09.099 example of in an admin class that i took where 00:44:09.099 --> 00:44:12.019 we had to write a scene at the beginning of class 00:44:12.019 --> 00:44:15.519 and the teacher would give us some it's gonna 00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:17.380 it's got to be about a family conflict and then 00:44:17.380 --> 00:44:19.599 here's this line you've got to put in there that 00:44:19.599 --> 00:44:21.920 was way easier than the time that he came in 00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:24.500 was like yeah just write whatever you want what 00:44:24.500 --> 00:44:28.679 are we supposed to write now yeah yeah or tell 00:44:28.679 --> 00:44:34.480 me about your summer or so it sounds like when 00:44:34.480 --> 00:44:39.000 you stopped putting those kind of artificial 00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:44.719 technical constraints on your work is when you 00:44:44.719 --> 00:44:48.159 started to really work on this book. And I'm 00:44:48.159 --> 00:44:51.059 going to go ahead and hold up. And this book 00:44:51.059 --> 00:44:52.800 just came out. It's called Artistic Alchemy. 00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:57.079 And I just got my copy today, so I'm really excited 00:44:57.079 --> 00:45:01.320 for it. But all of the kind of constraints that 00:45:01.320 --> 00:45:02.800 you've been talking about are the constraints 00:45:02.800 --> 00:45:05.480 that you put on yourself when developing this 00:45:05.480 --> 00:45:08.639 book. Yes, although you can see the earlier paintings, 00:45:08.840 --> 00:45:10.960 they still have like flowers and fruit and stuff 00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:13.059 that I would have bought at the store. Is it 00:45:13.059 --> 00:45:16.320 okay to show a couple of these? Sure. So this 00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:18.420 may be something. So this would be an example 00:45:18.420 --> 00:45:21.559 of a, can anybody want to send it? If not, I 00:45:21.559 --> 00:45:25.800 can. Okay. Yeah. It's a golden barrel cactus 00:45:25.800 --> 00:45:30.579 that I purchased at a store and then a lily. 00:45:31.380 --> 00:45:34.780 which, by the way, is very toxic to humans and 00:45:34.780 --> 00:45:37.940 a lot of animals like cats. So I'm glad I'm not 00:45:37.940 --> 00:45:39.719 using anything like that anymore, bringing it 00:45:39.719 --> 00:45:42.320 into my house, because I have cats. Yeah, I have 00:45:42.320 --> 00:45:44.699 cats, too. So I don't have lilies around them. 00:45:44.920 --> 00:45:47.760 So is it in chronological order, then? Yes. That's 00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:49.260 really interesting. Pretty much. I might have, 00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:51.579 with earlier paintings, might not be in exact 00:45:51.579 --> 00:45:54.980 order, but, I mean, at least it goes from starting 00:45:54.980 --> 00:45:57.480 from the earlier years to the later years. The 00:45:57.480 --> 00:46:00.559 later years. And how many years does this... 00:46:00.969 --> 00:46:04.309 of work does this culminate in? It goes up to 00:46:04.309 --> 00:46:08.030 2025, because I just made it in 2025. Well, let 00:46:08.030 --> 00:46:09.789 me see, what was the, I don't remember what's 00:46:09.789 --> 00:46:12.469 the first, they don't have the copyright date. 00:46:12.929 --> 00:46:16.190 Is that the first, is that the first one is the, 00:46:16.190 --> 00:46:19.769 what does it say, 2015? I was thinking 2013. 00:46:20.030 --> 00:46:23.269 Okay, there you go. So 2013, I think, is the 00:46:23.269 --> 00:46:27.449 earliest. Gotcha. So 12 years of painting. Yeah. 00:46:28.460 --> 00:46:31.679 Is it all painting? Yes, it's all painting. And 00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:35.760 it's all oil on canvas, and I don't paint the 00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:38.480 background. I just leave it the white background 00:46:38.480 --> 00:46:41.719 of the unpainted canvas. I feel like that is 00:46:41.719 --> 00:46:45.739 maybe a throwback to medical illustrations, and 00:46:45.739 --> 00:46:49.219 you're maybe inspired by that. It is, because 00:46:49.219 --> 00:46:53.019 if I painted a shadow, like a cast shadow, I 00:46:53.019 --> 00:46:56.579 could really make these items in the still life 00:46:56.579 --> 00:46:59.670 just pop. like they're jumping like they're floating 00:46:59.670 --> 00:47:01.650 over the page or sitting right there on the page 00:47:01.650 --> 00:47:04.969 with a cast shadow that is something that you 00:47:04.969 --> 00:47:08.510 do basically avoid in in scientific illustration 00:47:08.510 --> 00:47:10.469 and medical illustration you usually would leave 00:47:10.469 --> 00:47:14.710 the shadows out but when i was a senior in college 00:47:14.710 --> 00:47:18.289 like my very last quarter here i took a watercolor 00:47:18.289 --> 00:47:20.750 class and one of the things that we had to do 00:47:20.750 --> 00:47:23.849 was paint a mossy log a mossy log like a stick 00:47:23.849 --> 00:47:27.610 as you can imagine since i love moss like that 00:47:27.610 --> 00:47:31.530 was super awesome i just found one at my at my 00:47:31.530 --> 00:47:34.710 parents house and we had to paint it realistically 00:47:34.710 --> 00:47:37.150 and of course i did a great job on that one and 00:47:37.150 --> 00:47:39.469 then after i was done the teacher was like oh 00:47:39.469 --> 00:47:41.889 you can put in a cast shadow and i was like nope 00:47:41.889 --> 00:47:44.449 partially because i was afraid i was going to 00:47:44.449 --> 00:47:47.010 ruin it right but i was like you know what it 00:47:47.010 --> 00:47:48.889 doesn't really need a shadow you can it still 00:47:48.889 --> 00:47:51.170 looks three -dimensional without it and but that 00:47:51.170 --> 00:47:53.050 kind of became part of your voice then it did 00:47:53.050 --> 00:47:56.760 it absolutely did and And some of that is for 00:47:56.760 --> 00:48:00.760 time. I could take the time to paint. When I 00:48:00.760 --> 00:48:03.840 first started doing these still lifes, I would 00:48:03.840 --> 00:48:06.519 do them in one day, and it was just an a la prima 00:48:06.519 --> 00:48:10.159 all at once. And I would have a fabric background, 00:48:10.480 --> 00:48:13.619 and so that would take extra, and then paint 00:48:13.619 --> 00:48:15.260 the shadow. And at some point, I was like, these 00:48:15.260 --> 00:48:17.699 backgrounds aren't adding anything. It would 00:48:17.699 --> 00:48:20.480 be so much faster if I just didn't paint them 00:48:20.480 --> 00:48:23.780 at all. And this is available to order on Amazon. 00:48:23.900 --> 00:48:25.739 And I've got a link to it in the description 00:48:25.739 --> 00:48:27.760 of this episode, so make sure that you check 00:48:27.760 --> 00:48:31.159 it out. One other thing I wanted to ask you about, 00:48:31.340 --> 00:48:34.260 a theme that commonly comes up on this podcast 00:48:34.260 --> 00:48:38.539 is, I've interviewed people that create music 00:48:38.539 --> 00:48:42.360 just because they love music, and I've interviewed 00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:46.500 musicians and artists that create because... 00:48:47.179 --> 00:48:51.679 it helps them process things it helps them and 00:48:51.679 --> 00:48:53.940 like bad things can happen if they don't express 00:48:53.940 --> 00:48:59.360 themselves the healthy ways or or handling trauma 00:48:59.360 --> 00:49:03.159 or things like that and I was wondering how much 00:49:03.159 --> 00:49:05.260 of it for you it sounds like you had an innate 00:49:05.260 --> 00:49:08.599 love of art your whole life but I also am curious 00:49:08.599 --> 00:49:12.099 like how much of it is a is like a transformative 00:49:12.099 --> 00:49:14.820 like processing or even healing thing for you 00:49:15.119 --> 00:49:17.519 A lot of it is, and that's where I use the term 00:49:17.519 --> 00:49:21.300 alchemy, artistic alchemy, because I am taking 00:49:21.300 --> 00:49:25.960 usually two different objects that wouldn't necessarily 00:49:25.960 --> 00:49:27.920 be put together, two different natural objects, 00:49:28.059 --> 00:49:30.659 and assembling them into something. But a lot 00:49:30.659 --> 00:49:34.139 of it is for dealing with trauma, not just for 00:49:34.139 --> 00:49:38.059 myself, but for other people, and trying to make 00:49:38.059 --> 00:49:40.960 something positive. I think I have one in the 00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:44.130 book. A piece that I did about female genital 00:49:44.130 --> 00:49:48.650 mutilation, which is not something I, that's 00:49:48.650 --> 00:49:51.889 generally not really done around here. It's not 00:49:51.889 --> 00:49:54.769 something I have personally experienced. I don't, 00:49:54.789 --> 00:49:56.889 as far as I know, I don't even know anybody who's 00:49:56.889 --> 00:49:58.289 personally experienced it, but I still thought 00:49:58.289 --> 00:50:01.929 I should do something about the topic. And hopefully, 00:50:02.070 --> 00:50:06.050 if anybody who could survive that saw the artwork 00:50:06.050 --> 00:50:09.190 would find it uplifting. And it also is. It's 00:50:09.190 --> 00:50:12.010 to send a message about this is something that 00:50:12.010 --> 00:50:15.389 should not be happening. But hopefully, but with 00:50:15.389 --> 00:50:19.369 stuff that may be not as extreme as the female 00:50:19.369 --> 00:50:22.489 genital mutilation, but other things I've had 00:50:22.489 --> 00:50:25.030 people who have survived trauma tell me that 00:50:25.030 --> 00:50:31.750 they feel seen and that it helps them feel better 00:50:31.750 --> 00:50:34.989 about the experience. For me, the main thing 00:50:34.989 --> 00:50:37.219 like... The main paintings like that would be 00:50:37.219 --> 00:50:39.980 the Welling Up series, which have to do with 00:50:39.980 --> 00:50:45.159 having loved ones who are in terrible health. 00:50:45.440 --> 00:50:49.280 And then also there, I think I've got two in 00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:51.440 here that are called Uncaptive. So it's like 00:50:51.440 --> 00:50:53.659 a very small series. But when I was four years 00:50:53.659 --> 00:50:57.559 old, I escaped a kidnapping attempt. And honestly, 00:50:57.659 --> 00:51:02.559 I never really felt safe since then. But yeah, 00:51:02.699 --> 00:51:06.920 so I did a couple of pieces. Having to deal with 00:51:06.920 --> 00:51:10.179 that, or talking about that. Although, I don't 00:51:10.179 --> 00:51:13.480 know that many people that have escaped kidnapping 00:51:13.480 --> 00:51:16.880 attempts. There's like a Gen X meme about them 00:51:16.880 --> 00:51:18.300 that says something like, oh, you talk to any 00:51:18.300 --> 00:51:21.820 person, any Gen X person, and their day, they 00:51:21.820 --> 00:51:23.320 tell you about a day that starts with them making 00:51:23.320 --> 00:51:25.340 breakfast and then escaping a kidnapping attempt 00:51:25.340 --> 00:51:26.920 or something. So, like, how did I get such a 00:51:26.920 --> 00:51:29.619 good idea? Like stranger danger or something? 00:51:30.019 --> 00:51:34.070 Yeah. Is that a story you're willing to... We 00:51:34.070 --> 00:51:37.489 didn't really have stranger danger. I was just, 00:51:37.550 --> 00:51:40.969 my parents informed me that there are people 00:51:40.969 --> 00:51:44.010 who want to take children off the street, and 00:51:44.010 --> 00:51:46.989 some of them do it because they can't have a 00:51:46.989 --> 00:51:48.869 baby and they want a child, and then some of 00:51:48.869 --> 00:51:51.250 them do it because they want to murder a child. 00:51:51.829 --> 00:51:53.989 They didn't talk about other stuff in between, 00:51:54.070 --> 00:51:57.710 but anyway. So basically when the man tried to 00:51:57.710 --> 00:52:00.760 order me into his car, I... you know, and was 00:52:00.760 --> 00:52:02.639 screaming at me to get into this car, I did not 00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:07.039 get in – I ran. And luckily, my husband Chris 00:52:07.039 --> 00:52:10.340 actually found out years later, based on things 00:52:10.340 --> 00:52:12.440 that I had said, like, it never occurred to me 00:52:12.440 --> 00:52:16.239 that maybe we could figure out who it was. And 00:52:16.239 --> 00:52:20.780 I don't – he – basically, yes, we figured out 00:52:20.780 --> 00:52:22.599 who it was. Oh, wow. We figured out who it was 00:52:22.599 --> 00:52:25.099 from the timing and from the description, and 00:52:25.099 --> 00:52:27.599 he actually took it upon himself, because I'd 00:52:27.599 --> 00:52:29.730 been telling him the story for ever since we 00:52:29.730 --> 00:52:32.690 knew each other and then he after i went to bed 00:52:32.690 --> 00:52:35.889 he was like looking stuff up and pinned it down 00:52:35.889 --> 00:52:40.409 to two people and that were rather notorious 00:52:40.409 --> 00:52:44.570 in south carolina and i'm afraid to say who the 00:52:44.570 --> 00:52:46.369 person was because i know that there's still 00:52:46.369 --> 00:52:49.110 like a lot of living relatives the person was 00:52:49.110 --> 00:52:52.110 executed by the state of south carolina but gotcha 00:52:52.110 --> 00:52:53.889 but i remember but one of my husband was like 00:52:53.889 --> 00:52:56.710 okay was it larry gene bell and i was like no 00:52:57.130 --> 00:52:58.909 because i remember what he looked like no that 00:52:58.909 --> 00:53:01.750 was not the person but and then he was like well 00:53:01.750 --> 00:53:03.170 that's probably and then i was like it sounds 00:53:03.170 --> 00:53:06.030 like it's public information but not related 00:53:06.030 --> 00:53:08.670 to me right exactly yeah but yeah the person 00:53:08.670 --> 00:53:12.610 was executed not because of me but yeah but he 00:53:12.610 --> 00:53:17.829 did did painting those paintings help you feel 00:53:17.829 --> 00:53:20.809 safer a little bit yes it was nice to address 00:53:20.809 --> 00:53:23.550 it and it gave me a reason to talk about it because 00:53:23.550 --> 00:53:27.920 it is weird to bring up this man who was going 00:53:27.920 --> 00:53:30.260 to very violently murder me like trying to force 00:53:30.260 --> 00:53:32.840 trying to get me into his car and luckily he 00:53:32.840 --> 00:53:35.039 wasn't trying very hard to get me because i'm 00:53:35.039 --> 00:53:36.420 sure he could have jumped out of the car and 00:53:36.420 --> 00:53:38.639 run because i was playing in the street by myself 00:53:38.639 --> 00:53:41.099 this was before we lived in the woods and i was 00:53:41.099 --> 00:53:45.320 just two houses down from my own house and by 00:53:45.320 --> 00:53:48.059 myself and that's all it takes and there's security 00:53:48.059 --> 00:53:49.960 cameras back then so that would have been it 00:53:49.960 --> 00:53:54.989 but yeah so anyway but yeah he was Apparently, 00:53:55.090 --> 00:53:57.929 somebody turned the guy in, now that we know 00:53:57.929 --> 00:54:00.449 who it was, like, a month or two after that happened. 00:54:01.329 --> 00:54:04.150 And what's interesting is that he had a car that 00:54:04.150 --> 00:54:07.289 fit the description of the car that he had been 00:54:07.289 --> 00:54:11.510 in. He had been killing kids? Kids, adults. It's 00:54:11.510 --> 00:54:13.809 weird, because, like, usually people like that, 00:54:13.869 --> 00:54:16.969 they have a type. But he didn't. It was, like, 00:54:17.050 --> 00:54:22.269 men, women, children, old people, his own nieces. 00:54:23.659 --> 00:54:28.559 So, yeah. Wow, wow. Holy shit. I know, I know. 00:54:28.780 --> 00:54:32.599 I'm glad you knew to run. That was, I was unarmed, 00:54:32.599 --> 00:54:34.940 but my parents at least told me that, to not 00:54:34.940 --> 00:54:39.300 get in the car with somebody. But, yeah. I actually 00:54:39.300 --> 00:54:43.780 was thinking about doing a series about this. 00:54:44.380 --> 00:54:46.480 I'm worried that it would sound somewhat like 00:54:46.480 --> 00:54:49.019 victim -blaming because it's not, but I think 00:54:49.019 --> 00:54:51.679 it's like the way... that girls and women are 00:54:51.679 --> 00:54:53.760 raised in this country, and not just this country, 00:54:53.840 --> 00:54:55.840 but most parts of the world, actually, where 00:54:55.840 --> 00:54:59.400 we're supposed to be nice and polite. But the 00:54:59.400 --> 00:55:01.659 series would be called Good Girls Gone Missing. 00:55:02.340 --> 00:55:09.219 And I remember years ago, there was some, like, 00:55:09.260 --> 00:55:11.800 9 - or 10 -year -old who had been, they believed 00:55:11.800 --> 00:55:14.739 she had been kidnapped. And I don't know whatever 00:55:14.739 --> 00:55:18.769 happened to her, but her... Her classmates were 00:55:18.769 --> 00:55:20.510 saying, like, what a nice girl she was and what 00:55:20.510 --> 00:55:22.730 a sweet girl she was. And I remember at this 00:55:22.730 --> 00:55:24.150 time, and I was already an adult, of course, 00:55:24.210 --> 00:55:26.309 and thinking, like, nobody would have described 00:55:26.309 --> 00:55:28.289 me as being a nice, sweet person when I was four 00:55:28.289 --> 00:55:32.230 years old. And then I thought, but I was also, 00:55:32.269 --> 00:55:34.369 like, not so nice that I got in the car with 00:55:34.369 --> 00:55:35.789 somebody just because he was telling me to get 00:55:35.789 --> 00:55:38.130 in the car. Like I said, I'm worried that would 00:55:38.130 --> 00:55:39.449 sound like victim -blind because I don't know 00:55:39.449 --> 00:55:42.050 what the circumstance was of this particular 00:55:42.050 --> 00:55:44.389 child. But I just think that we... I think if 00:55:44.389 --> 00:55:47.650 you zoom out, instead of thinking about any one 00:55:47.650 --> 00:55:50.630 specific, but if you zoom out and think about 00:55:50.630 --> 00:55:58.289 how that learned behavior does put people, women, 00:55:58.449 --> 00:56:02.170 and kids of all kinds, I think, too. But specifically 00:56:02.170 --> 00:56:05.250 with women, where you're not supposed to say 00:56:05.250 --> 00:56:13.199 no. especially to a male. Be polite to a man, 00:56:13.380 --> 00:56:20.239 and it's like, that man, don't. I think that 00:56:20.239 --> 00:56:24.619 when you talk about the societal norm that needs 00:56:24.619 --> 00:56:27.980 to be addressed, that's not victim blaming at 00:56:27.980 --> 00:56:31.800 all. That's legitimate. But I do think that is 00:56:31.800 --> 00:56:37.920 putting children at risk of well i think the 00:56:37.920 --> 00:56:40.480 new reaction to that is things like stranger 00:56:40.480 --> 00:56:43.300 danger which isn't necessarily the healthiest 00:56:43.300 --> 00:56:47.480 way to handle that because then what if it's 00:56:47.480 --> 00:56:49.460 a person that's related i think the thing that 00:56:49.460 --> 00:56:52.559 they say about nowadays is like tricky people 00:56:52.559 --> 00:56:56.179 it's not necessarily a stranger and it's and 00:56:56.179 --> 00:56:58.599 a lot of times it is but how are you supposed 00:56:58.599 --> 00:57:00.500 to make friends if you don't talk to strangers 00:57:01.610 --> 00:57:03.530 You would hope that if you're like eight years 00:57:03.530 --> 00:57:05.150 old, then another eight year old is hopefully 00:57:05.150 --> 00:57:08.469 not going to have the power to do anything like 00:57:08.469 --> 00:57:12.909 that with you. What kind of led to the decision 00:57:12.909 --> 00:57:15.250 to put all of this into a book? Was that always 00:57:15.250 --> 00:57:18.469 the plan or was it something that you had? I 00:57:18.469 --> 00:57:21.150 probably came after you started doing the paintings. 00:57:21.289 --> 00:57:23.610 Oh, after I started doing the paintings, I had 00:57:23.610 --> 00:57:25.349 the idea in the back of my mind for a while. 00:57:26.030 --> 00:57:28.750 It did seem like the past year or two, everybody 00:57:28.750 --> 00:57:32.619 I knew has had a book come out. My husband has, 00:57:32.820 --> 00:57:37.539 he did one that's 599 pages. And that's because 00:57:37.539 --> 00:57:41.119 on the Amazon direct publish, 600 is the limit 00:57:41.119 --> 00:57:44.300 for a paperback. But basically, no, I did this 00:57:44.300 --> 00:57:49.760 back in November after. So I had a cardiac ablation 00:57:49.760 --> 00:57:53.380 and I was like basically just lying in bed for 00:57:53.380 --> 00:57:55.480 a week and I couldn't really do anything. But 00:57:55.480 --> 00:57:59.559 then I was, Christmas was coming up and I was 00:57:59.559 --> 00:58:02.039 wanting to have. a book of my art made for my 00:58:02.039 --> 00:58:05.539 mom as a christmas gift and i was thinking like 00:58:05.539 --> 00:58:07.860 i had done one before like years ago using shutterfly 00:58:07.860 --> 00:58:09.579 so i was thinking like shutterfly or nation soda 00:58:09.579 --> 00:58:11.619 lab and then chris was like why don't you just 00:58:11.619 --> 00:58:14.699 do it on amazon and then i was like this is brilliant 00:58:14.699 --> 00:58:19.340 because i had been trying to think of ways to 00:58:19.340 --> 00:58:24.250 sell my art where i don't have to ship it like 00:58:24.250 --> 00:58:26.909 digital downloads and stuff and then and he was 00:58:26.909 --> 00:58:28.989 like and then you can have it on amazon of course 00:58:28.989 --> 00:58:30.789 like with dummy i have it on my website also 00:58:30.789 --> 00:58:33.349 where i would have to ship it out if people want 00:58:33.349 --> 00:58:35.869 a signed copy but if you don't want to sign copy 00:58:35.869 --> 00:58:38.190 it's just on amazon and you can buy it and i 00:58:38.190 --> 00:58:40.730 don't have to i don't have to package it up or 00:58:40.730 --> 00:58:43.170 anything because i don't enjoy that part of it 00:58:43.170 --> 00:58:46.849 but yeah so basically then i was having to just 00:58:46.849 --> 00:58:52.590 lie around and i thought i had it put together 00:58:52.590 --> 00:58:56.920 in in a day and a half, which was basically like 00:58:56.920 --> 00:59:00.260 just gathering where I was starting with the 00:59:00.260 --> 00:59:02.199 more recent artwork and just gathering it and 00:59:02.199 --> 00:59:04.480 where I had written statements about them. And 00:59:04.480 --> 00:59:07.059 then I realized that for a hardcover book, which 00:59:07.059 --> 00:59:08.619 is what Chris said, you ought to do a hardcover 00:59:08.619 --> 00:59:12.559 book. It needed a minimum number of pages, the 00:59:12.559 --> 00:59:16.099 opposite of his problem with his 599 page book. 00:59:16.280 --> 00:59:19.619 So then I had to like scramble and okay, I've 00:59:19.619 --> 00:59:21.400 got to dig up like the older artwork and put 00:59:21.400 --> 00:59:24.000 that into. And then there were a few places where 00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:26.059 I hadn't written a statement about the artwork. 00:59:26.619 --> 00:59:30.179 So then I had to think real carefully and come 00:59:30.179 --> 00:59:35.000 up with something quickly. Yeah. Yeah, so I put 00:59:35.000 --> 00:59:40.300 it together very quickly, and there it is. You 00:59:40.300 --> 00:59:42.500 painted for 12 years, and then you put it together 00:59:42.500 --> 00:59:46.320 very quickly. Yeah, because I worked on it on 00:59:46.320 --> 00:59:47.739 a Saturday, and then Sunday morning I'm like, 00:59:47.820 --> 00:59:49.599 okay, by noon I'm going to be done with this, 00:59:49.659 --> 00:59:51.920 and I'm going to upload it. And then I tried 00:59:51.920 --> 00:59:53.639 to upload it and they're like, ahem, you need 00:59:53.639 --> 00:59:56.440 to add like a bunch more pages to it. And I was 00:59:56.440 --> 00:59:59.139 like, crap. What size canvas do you typically 00:59:59.139 --> 01:00:02.280 paint on? The biggest I've done, not counting 01:00:02.280 --> 01:00:04.739 the signboard that I did in acrylics that was 01:00:04.739 --> 01:00:07.400 for outdoor display in Watkinsville, five by 01:00:07.400 --> 01:00:09.820 four foot. That is, that doesn't sound that big. 01:00:09.880 --> 01:00:12.059 That is actually huge. That's the biggest one 01:00:12.059 --> 01:00:14.280 I've done. That does not fit in my car. That 01:00:14.280 --> 01:00:16.320 does not fit in most cars because of the wheel 01:00:16.320 --> 01:00:21.239 and to display it in. some shows i had to basically 01:00:21.239 --> 01:00:24.199 rent a van for it so i'm not doing that anymore 01:00:24.199 --> 01:00:28.159 but so most of my paintings i was doing 22 by 01:00:28.159 --> 01:00:31.679 28 which made it easy to do and which this wasn't 01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:33.039 how i planned it that way i just thought that 01:00:33.039 --> 01:00:36.159 was like a good size but then you could do an 01:00:36.159 --> 01:00:40.280 11 by 14 print of it yeah it reduced down without 01:00:40.280 --> 01:00:44.340 having to alter to a standard size without having 01:00:44.340 --> 01:00:46.840 to like crop anything or worry about that but 01:00:46.840 --> 01:00:49.909 right now the series i'm doing feral feminism, 01:00:50.070 --> 01:00:53.489 I'm doing 11 by 14 paintings. Partially because 01:00:53.489 --> 01:00:56.170 I'm running out of room in my house. But also 01:00:56.170 --> 01:00:58.190 to get it done more quickly because the project 01:00:58.190 --> 01:01:01.389 I'm doing this year that I expect to take most 01:01:01.389 --> 01:01:04.590 of the year is going to be a field guide, like 01:01:04.590 --> 01:01:08.849 a nature guide, but feral feminism field guide. 01:01:09.090 --> 01:01:11.570 And it's going to have my paintings about feral 01:01:11.570 --> 01:01:15.250 feminism, which are going to be animal bones. 01:01:15.429 --> 01:01:19.289 So far it's skulls. Combined with feathers, and 01:01:19.289 --> 01:01:21.329 these are, of course, all ethically sourced, 01:01:21.329 --> 01:01:24.349 meaning they're just on the ground. I'm not killing 01:01:24.349 --> 01:01:26.170 any animals to get them there. The animal's already 01:01:26.170 --> 01:01:29.869 dead, and oh, there's a nice skull. I will gather 01:01:29.869 --> 01:01:32.309 that up and use it. But then what's a little 01:01:32.309 --> 01:01:34.550 bit different about this project, and I'm planning 01:01:34.550 --> 01:01:37.250 for it to be a digital download and maybe even 01:01:37.250 --> 01:01:41.530 a book, like on Amazon, but I'm going to also 01:01:41.530 --> 01:01:45.599 have sketches in there. like a nature journal. 01:01:45.719 --> 01:01:47.579 If you've never seen like a nature sketchbook 01:01:47.579 --> 01:01:51.559 or a nature art journal of different things relating 01:01:51.559 --> 01:01:54.519 to the paintings and then some text to go with 01:01:54.519 --> 01:01:57.139 it which is where I'm a little bit more out of 01:01:57.139 --> 01:01:59.739 my element and then I'm going to do a series 01:01:59.739 --> 01:02:01.920 of videos about making the project and this is 01:02:01.920 --> 01:02:05.059 going to be a little bit different from my creativity 01:02:05.059 --> 01:02:07.360 tips because those are all standalone and don't 01:02:07.360 --> 01:02:09.539 have to relate to one another and I'm trying 01:02:09.539 --> 01:02:12.599 to figure out how to do like a series of videos 01:02:12.599 --> 01:02:15.480 about this project and having it more of telling 01:02:15.480 --> 01:02:18.000 a story about it yeah obviously it'll relate 01:02:18.000 --> 01:02:21.079 because it's okay um here's this painting i'm 01:02:21.079 --> 01:02:24.119 working on now but so can you tell us a little 01:02:24.119 --> 01:02:27.079 bit about the inspiration for your creativity 01:02:27.079 --> 01:02:30.000 tips youtube channel and oh okay kind of what 01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:31.860 what that's about and what you're doing with 01:02:31.860 --> 01:02:35.900 it a couple different things i had seen something 01:02:35.900 --> 01:02:40.030 so this would have been late in 2024 that I was 01:02:40.030 --> 01:02:43.170 thinking about doing a channel of these tips, 01:02:43.469 --> 01:02:46.289 I saw something that was basically asking, what 01:02:46.289 --> 01:02:49.690 are you an expert on? And the only thing I could 01:02:49.690 --> 01:02:52.610 think of was creativity. And I'm surprised. I've 01:02:52.610 --> 01:02:56.349 done 61 videos now. They're not all live yet. 01:02:56.389 --> 01:02:59.449 I have them. It's a struggle trying to keep up. 01:02:59.530 --> 01:03:03.309 So I'll do three on a Saturday, and it takes 01:03:03.309 --> 01:03:05.429 forever to upload. And I don't even edit them. 01:03:06.170 --> 01:03:09.929 Except to cut off. the beginning and end where 01:03:09.929 --> 01:03:13.070 i'm like starting the camera did that millennial 01:03:13.070 --> 01:03:16.269 pause to do that if i had gotten a camera with 01:03:16.269 --> 01:03:19.190 a remote but anyway um but yeah so what am i 01:03:19.190 --> 01:03:21.570 an expert on and the only thing i could think 01:03:21.570 --> 01:03:23.670 of was creativity i'm not an expert on painting 01:03:23.670 --> 01:03:28.130 or art or anything like that and then and then 01:03:28.130 --> 01:03:32.150 i guess the other thing what was it like my sister 01:03:32.150 --> 01:03:35.329 had retired and so she's doing like a lot of 01:03:35.329 --> 01:03:38.699 volunteer work and like on the board of the board 01:03:38.699 --> 01:03:41.820 of directors at her local animal shelter and 01:03:41.820 --> 01:03:43.800 trying to make a difference that way and so I 01:03:43.800 --> 01:03:47.480 was thinking of that too and I did a little bit 01:03:47.480 --> 01:03:50.139 of research on YouTube to look for creativity 01:03:50.139 --> 01:03:52.739 tips before I got started and I found almost 01:03:52.739 --> 01:03:56.860 nothing and I was like maybe nobody is interested 01:03:56.860 --> 01:03:59.460 in creativity tips but I thought probably the 01:03:59.460 --> 01:04:01.360 more likely thing is that people just don't know 01:04:01.360 --> 01:04:04.119 what to say. Because I had to start examining 01:04:04.119 --> 01:04:06.739 my own process and then realizing more and more. 01:04:06.880 --> 01:04:08.659 And occasionally somebody will give me a suggestion 01:04:08.659 --> 01:04:12.539 or an idea. But I talk about this in one of my 01:04:12.539 --> 01:04:16.539 videos. Not as many as yours, though. I make 01:04:16.539 --> 01:04:18.920 a lot of clips from the long videos, so it probably 01:04:18.920 --> 01:04:20.380 looks like there's a lot more than there are. 01:04:20.840 --> 01:04:26.380 But mine, I only remember getting one creativity 01:04:26.380 --> 01:04:30.480 tip at all in college and med school. Which, 01:04:30.519 --> 01:04:32.639 to be fair, I think there was an understanding 01:04:32.639 --> 01:04:34.460 that, like, okay, if you're at this level, you're 01:04:34.460 --> 01:04:37.179 already creative. And then also, like, both programs 01:04:37.179 --> 01:04:39.860 were focused on realism and things like that. 01:04:40.039 --> 01:04:42.920 But the one tip was know the rules so that you 01:04:42.920 --> 01:04:46.079 can break them. And I did do a video about that. 01:04:47.500 --> 01:04:49.699 But that was literally the only tip I got, except 01:04:49.699 --> 01:04:53.139 possibly my least favorite tip. I may have heard 01:04:53.139 --> 01:04:55.980 the, you've all heard it, think outside the box. 01:04:57.019 --> 01:04:59.920 Which really is, like, not a good tip because, 01:05:00.019 --> 01:05:04.119 so I did a video about that was basically, you're 01:05:04.119 --> 01:05:05.659 not going to be able to think outside your box. 01:05:05.739 --> 01:05:08.760 You just have to expand the box. Yeah. Because 01:05:08.760 --> 01:05:10.840 I've seen different things that, like, different 01:05:10.840 --> 01:05:12.039 articles. That makes a lot more sense. I have 01:05:12.039 --> 01:05:13.920 seen different articles that were supposed to 01:05:13.920 --> 01:05:16.460 be promoting how you need to think outside the 01:05:16.460 --> 01:05:19.199 box, and they were doing the opposite. And I 01:05:19.199 --> 01:05:22.860 swear sometimes I'm like, where am I dreaming 01:05:22.860 --> 01:05:25.519 up these things? But anyway, like. Years ago, 01:05:25.619 --> 01:05:27.900 I had read an article promoting the whole thing 01:05:27.900 --> 01:05:30.159 outside the box, and it was supposedly about 01:05:30.159 --> 01:05:33.360 these scientists that were studying anatomy, 01:05:33.500 --> 01:05:35.420 and they couldn't... I think it was about kidney 01:05:35.420 --> 01:05:37.539 tubules. I don't know. I could find nothing when 01:05:37.539 --> 01:05:39.639 I went back and tried it before I did this tip, 01:05:39.679 --> 01:05:42.380 so maybe I dreamed this. But pretend this is 01:05:42.380 --> 01:05:44.179 what happened because it still worked. It was 01:05:44.179 --> 01:05:46.420 something like this. So these scientists are 01:05:46.420 --> 01:05:48.860 like... what do these things do we can't figure 01:05:48.860 --> 01:05:51.119 out the function and they had a drawing up on 01:05:51.119 --> 01:05:53.719 a blackboard or whatever and an engineer who 01:05:53.719 --> 01:05:56.559 happened to be in came in and walked into the 01:05:56.559 --> 01:06:00.039 room and he's that looks exactly like whatever 01:06:00.039 --> 01:06:03.139 engineering thing yeah yeah and the scientists 01:06:03.139 --> 01:06:05.420 were like oh my god that turned out to be its 01:06:05.420 --> 01:06:07.880 function it was exactly the engineering so they're 01:06:07.880 --> 01:06:09.519 like see the engineer was thinking outside the 01:06:09.519 --> 01:06:12.460 box no he wasn't he was thinking within his engineer's 01:06:12.460 --> 01:06:16.039 box Yeah, exactly. That proves the opposite of 01:06:16.039 --> 01:06:17.340 what they were trying to say in that article. 01:06:17.739 --> 01:06:20.139 He was thinking within his engineer's box. It 01:06:20.139 --> 01:06:21.840 was a totally different box than the scientists 01:06:21.840 --> 01:06:25.500 had. And they really had no hope of thinking 01:06:25.500 --> 01:06:27.840 like an engineer unless they had somehow studied 01:06:27.840 --> 01:06:30.539 that. Yeah, yeah. So that was just my advice 01:06:30.539 --> 01:06:32.559 for that is you're not going to be able to think 01:06:32.559 --> 01:06:35.079 outside your box. You're not going to know engineering 01:06:35.079 --> 01:06:37.539 stuff unless you've studied engineering, even 01:06:37.539 --> 01:06:42.349 if maybe casually. So all you can do is just 01:06:42.349 --> 01:06:45.349 try to expand that box by learning about whatever 01:06:45.349 --> 01:06:47.190 interests you and maybe some stuff that doesn't 01:06:47.190 --> 01:06:50.389 interest you. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, so those 01:06:50.389 --> 01:06:52.530 are like literally, and I don't even know for 01:06:52.530 --> 01:06:54.610 sure that I heard the think outside the box from 01:06:54.610 --> 01:06:57.070 a college professor, but maybe I did. I don't 01:06:57.070 --> 01:06:59.030 know. It sounds like something we all said that 01:06:59.030 --> 01:07:01.269 is simple. Everybody hears that. But like I said, 01:07:01.369 --> 01:07:04.550 it really isn't, it really isn't the useful advice. 01:07:05.030 --> 01:07:07.659 It's basically think of something that you. think 01:07:07.659 --> 01:07:09.480 of something that nobody else has ever thought 01:07:09.480 --> 01:07:12.219 of just something completely different we don't 01:07:12.219 --> 01:07:13.760 know how you're going to do that but just do 01:07:13.760 --> 01:07:17.800 it and that's why i could do that amanda it's 01:07:17.800 --> 01:07:19.320 been really great talking to you is there anything 01:07:19.320 --> 01:07:20.800 else you want to mention before we wrap this 01:07:20.800 --> 01:07:22.980 up is there anything that you want to you feel 01:07:22.980 --> 01:07:26.920 like you left out i don't oh i should mention 01:07:26.920 --> 01:07:30.980 that as of less than a year ago so last year 01:07:31.449 --> 01:07:34.610 My husband and another artist and I formed the 01:07:34.610 --> 01:07:37.110 Thirteen Collective. Thank you. I was about to 01:07:37.110 --> 01:07:40.630 say. I knew you wrote that. And that's spelled 01:07:40.630 --> 01:07:44.849 T -H -U -R -T -I -N -E. And there is a link to 01:07:44.849 --> 01:07:47.369 that in the description as well for everybody 01:07:47.369 --> 01:07:49.590 listening. Oh, okay. Good, good. Thank you for 01:07:49.590 --> 01:07:52.269 that. Yeah. My husband, Chris McKay, and then 01:07:52.269 --> 01:07:56.610 artist Lindsay Swan and I came up with this idea. 01:07:56.750 --> 01:07:58.369 Chris and I had actually been talking about doing 01:07:58.369 --> 01:08:01.820 a collective for a while. And then we met Lindsay 01:08:01.820 --> 01:08:05.940 at, she had a solo art opening and some mutual 01:08:05.940 --> 01:08:10.079 friends introduced us. And it's exciting because 01:08:10.079 --> 01:08:11.739 there's like a picture of the three of us together 01:08:11.739 --> 01:08:14.599 the night we met. And it turned into this really 01:08:14.599 --> 01:08:17.560 awesome partnership. And we did one show at CineLab 01:08:17.560 --> 01:08:20.779 back in September. Yeah. We have different. I 01:08:20.779 --> 01:08:23.079 think that's actually how I first got on your 01:08:23.079 --> 01:08:25.899 radar. Okay, good. Or you got on my radar rather. 01:08:26.270 --> 01:08:28.289 believe it or not the theme of the show we've 01:08:28.289 --> 01:08:31.689 got coming up probably in may is artistic alchemy 01:08:31.689 --> 01:08:35.770 and that was not my idea but but we were but 01:08:35.770 --> 01:08:38.750 we wanted to be about neurodivergence and trauma 01:08:38.750 --> 01:08:42.770 and healing and things like that so we artistic 01:08:42.770 --> 01:08:46.329 alchemy is our actual theme and what's the date 01:08:46.329 --> 01:08:49.170 of that we have a tentative date set for may 01:08:49.170 --> 01:08:54.090 16th okay and may 15th i have a a solo show at 01:08:54.090 --> 01:08:56.890 tiny gallery awesome which is a really great 01:08:56.890 --> 01:09:00.630 place to you to visit to see a show there or 01:09:00.630 --> 01:09:02.970 have a show there if you're an artist that sounds 01:09:02.970 --> 01:09:05.670 great yeah that's two days in a row so that's 01:09:05.670 --> 01:09:08.710 really cool i will i'll make sure that we get 01:09:08.710 --> 01:09:11.609 this out like right around and then we can use 01:09:11.609 --> 01:09:14.149 it to promote both sounds good it sounds good 01:09:14.149 --> 01:09:16.350 it's been really great talking to you amanda 01:09:16.350 --> 01:09:20.109 thank you so much this is my first podcast so 01:09:20.630 --> 01:09:23.630 Hopefully it won't be your last. Yeah. Thanks 01:09:23.630 --> 01:09:26.229 so much for being here. Thank you. I hope you 01:09:26.229 --> 01:09:29.350 enjoyed my talk with Amanda McKay. I thought 01:09:29.350 --> 01:09:34.390 she's just a really fun person to talk to, but 01:09:34.390 --> 01:09:39.989 also what a fascinating career. I really want 01:09:39.989 --> 01:09:43.710 to learn more and more about veterinary art. 01:09:44.329 --> 01:09:48.550 It's really interesting to me now. Anyway, thanks 01:09:48.550 --> 01:09:50.539 for listening, y 'all. I really appreciate it. 01:09:50.579 --> 01:09:53.779 I hope you've enjoyed that. Make sure to check 01:09:53.779 --> 01:09:57.899 out her new book, Artistic Alchemy. Make sure 01:09:57.899 --> 01:10:00.859 to check out her YouTube channel. There's a link 01:10:00.859 --> 01:10:04.220 in the description. She's doing a feminist field 01:10:04.220 --> 01:10:07.579 guide right now. She's also doing motivational 01:10:07.579 --> 01:10:11.460 creative videos. She's working on all kinds of 01:10:11.460 --> 01:10:14.199 stuff. There's also a link to her book, Artistic 01:10:14.199 --> 01:10:16.539 Alchemy, in the description. You can get that 01:10:16.539 --> 01:10:19.579 on Amazon. Thanks so much for tuning in, y 'all. 01:10:20.119 --> 01:10:23.279 I have launched a Patreon just to give you a 01:10:23.279 --> 01:10:26.020 way to support the show if you'd like. The link 01:10:26.020 --> 01:10:29.119 for that's in the description. You will get early 01:10:29.119 --> 01:10:32.079 access and maybe the occasional extra video, 01:10:32.159 --> 01:10:33.899 but it really is just a way for you to directly 01:10:33.899 --> 01:10:37.199 support the show. Thanks for listening, y 'all. 01:10:37.239 --> 01:10:40.119 Hit that subscribe button, hit like. We'll see 01:10:40.119 --> 01:10:40.560 you next week.