She started giving me art lessons when I was
a toddler. But I started out with a real advantage
by the time starting school. I don't know if
I had any real ability or not, but I had training.
So I come into kindergarten and I'm several years
ahead, basically, compared to other children
as far as being able to depict something and
draw it realistically. Welcome to Overeducated
and Underemployed. We've got a really interesting
episode this week. We've got Amanda McKay, who
is a veterinary illustrator, as well as an artist
and a YouTuber with videos on artistic inspiration
and creativity, kind of motivation. And she's
also recently started a series, a feminist field
guide series that I think is really interesting,
and I encourage you to check it out. There's
a link in the description. I don't know that
I'd ever even heard of a veterinary illustrator
before. This was a really fascinating conversation
about that as well as about Amanda's life and
influences and all of the things. She's also
an artist independently of that and has a new
book called Artistic Alchemy. It came out late
last year. There's a link to it in the description.
She's also part of the 13 Collective, which a
bunch of the guests on this podcast have been
a part of. It's an art collective out of Athens,
Georgia. I plan to talk to more of them as well
over the next few months. Anyway, really fascinating,
interesting conversation. Really appreciated
her coming on the show. Yeah. Before I get into
that, I just want to remind y 'all this Friday,
The Rec Room, me and Sean Lubin. are co -headlining
a comedy show along with a few other comedians,
Caleb Thomas, Carol Hatcher, and LaRon Josie
Jr. It's going to be a hilarious night, I promise.
Come check it out. Sean and I are going to record
an episode of this podcast as well, so look forward
to that. And then in a few weeks at the Phipps
Farm in Tallahassee, make sure y 'all come out
to P -Funk Fest, take it to the stage. It's going
to be killer. We're going to be talking to all
kinds of members of the Parliament Funkadelic
family. And doing some live broadcasts and all
kinds of cool stuff. So make sure you hit the
subscribe button. Because next week we've got
Thelma and the Sleaze on the show. And that was
a really cool interview too. Make sure you come
check out that fest. It's going to be killer.
Here's my interview with Manda McKay. Just be
aware that we do get into some medical stuff
at a couple points here. If you're a little bit
squeamish when she starts talking about that,
you may just want to skip forward a couple of
minutes. It was really awesome talking to her.
We're on Overeducated and Underemployed. I'm
here with Amanda McKay. She's a visual artist,
and she just launched a YouTube channel with
tips for creativity, and it's really inspiring.
I've watched several of your videos already.
I'm going to start with the first question that
I ask everybody that comes on. And I'm just making
sure my mic's on. And I think it's just a question
that kind of gets to the root of early artistic
influence. But what's the first song that you
remember loving as a kid? The first song? That
might be California Dreaming by the Mamas and
the Papas. Mamas and the Papas, yeah, yeah. My
uncle had the record and then... He had gone
off to Vietnam, and so at some point, my sister
and I had it when we were babies. So I think
California Dreamin' would be the first one that
I remember like that. What about that song do
you remember loving about it? We were in California
at the time, so it did make me relate to that.
Let me think about that. What did I love about
it? It's got a really interesting story in the
song, and even when I was a toddler, where...
The singer pretends that he's praying and he's
just trying to get out of the cold going into
a church. And he's just faking it, basically.
And I don't know why this would appeal to me
when I was that age. But I still really love
the song now. Yeah. Do you remember how old you
were? Probably two years old, maybe. Oh, wow.
Okay. Yeah. Did you have an early affinity for
music? I did as far as listening to it, but not
as far as having any musical talents. Yeah, yeah,
I can relate to that. I'm the same way. I'm not,
like, I can sing enough to do three karaoke songs,
and my voice is just gone. But other than that,
I've had no musical talent. But I've always been
super passionate about music and loved it a lot.
Do you remember an offshoot of that question
that I ask everybody? Do you remember some of
the, like, early visual art that you really loved
as a kid? Salvador Dali definitely would be one
of the first ones. Really? My parents have some
limited edition lithographs. They were, like,
signed lithographs. I have a friend who has one.
I think it's, like, a pencil sketch, and they
have it in their guest house. So when people
come to stay. They better trust those guests
not to take that. Definitely. But, yeah, this
one had. like a weird head with a tongue sticking
out and a daisy with eggs, like cooked eggs,
and they were dripping off of it. But yeah, I
think it's actually from a Don Quixote series.
Okay. But so we have this whole collection. And
then a few years ago, I found some paperwork
from where they had bought it from a gallery
in South Carolina. And it was like basically
saying, oh, we'll buy them back at $500 each.
If you decide you don't like them, but I think
they're worth more than that now, but it's just
funny. Yes, 500. Here, give me my phone. So I
think they're worth a bit more than that now.
Probably. Yeah. Have you ever made it to the
Dali Museum down in St. Petersburg? I have not.
I have not. At one point, my husband Chris and
I were talking about doing that, but every, I
don't know. It is definitely worth the trip.
We haven't traveled in a while, put it that way.
It is definitely worth the trip if you're ever
able to make it. It's not only. is a really cool
collection but the way they built they put it
all in a new building probably about 15 years
ago now but the building is really beautiful
you can see pictures of the outside of the building
but also the way that they've hung the paintings
and the way you're able to view them like the
Abraham Lincoln the famous Abraham Lincoln one
the first time you see it up close if you follow
like the correct kind of path and then like later
you turn a corner and you're all the way across
like the entire museum from it and so it's so
you get to see both perspectives like he intended
and and so that's just like one example it's
it's a really well done museum i would definitely
love to check it out and then there's one in
spain also oh is there a friend of my mom's went
to years ago and she brought me back a postcard
from that so that was cool i still have the postcard
Is that, I'm guessing, a love that's continued,
it sounds like, into your later life? Yeah. Years
ago, they had a really cool exhibit at the High
Museum. Yeah. With all sorts of artwork that
I hadn't seen before. The Dali exhibit, apparently,
I guess it was Mondrian that Dali just hated.
Or at least pretended to hate. And there was
a short film of him basically dissing Mondrian.
he's he's one who he's famous for doing like
basically squares so almost the opposite of dolly
with his super realism that he was working in
yeah but yeah he was dissing mondrian and i don't
you always have to wonder if it was like just
for show or if he really felt that way but he
did seem like he felt that way but i thought
that was a funny thing to include in the in the
exhibits so did you start painting or drawing
or anything like that at a young age yes very
much don't even remember really when i started
but my mom had at one point been an art major
in college and then i guess she switched to being
an english major but so she still had a lot of
artistic talent and so she started giving me
art lessons when i was a toddler so this definitely
and i've talked about this in a few of my creativity
tip videos But I started out with a real advantage,
like, by the time starting school, I don't know
if I had any real ability or not, but I had training.
So, like, I come into kindergarten, and I'm,
like, several years ahead, basically, compared
to other children as far as being able to depict
something and draw it realistically. So, yeah,
I definitely had an advantage with moms training
me. Because she knew what she was doing with
that. Yeah, yeah. And I'm guessing also, like,
the materials were always around, too. I didn't
do oil paints. I work in oil painting now. And
she actually still had her art supplies from
college. And in fact, they're still in the house,
I think. I did wind up taking some of the oil
paints at one point. But I never worked in oils.
when I was a child, mostly because of the solvents.
So we had all sorts of watercolors and colored
pencils and graphite, but watercolor was what
I would use for painting. And we had a whole,
in the house, a utility room that was basically
a laundry room, but it had for my sister and
for me, we each had an area to sit and like counter
space to just work on art. So one thing I've
always been... curious about when it comes to
to to painting in particular is when it comes
to the act of painting i understand like how
they look differently but how do the different
types of paint paint differently oh that's a
really great question they are completely different
because oil paints you can blend really well
and then if you're not using stuff if you're
not using a medium to make it dry faster which
I don't because it's super toxic like it'll what
is that I'm sorry what does that mean a solvent
a medium yeah yeah oh okay so hey at least it
wasn't me I thought I was going to do that there
are different things that you can add to oil
paints to make them either dry faster or dry
slower whatever it is that you want But it takes
a while. In a painting session, nothing's going
to be dry, so I can keep blending and mixing
stuff. Whereas I tried a few paintings in acrylics,
and I even did a signboard. I got a grant from
Oconee Cultural Arts Foundation, I don't know,
maybe 10 years ago, to do an outdoor signboard.
And to do it in time, it had to be in acrylics.
And I was asking an old friend of mine who did
murals for advice, but it was... frustrating
with the acrylics because it would it dries right
away so it's hard to blend but then it's not
completely dry so then you're like going back
over it and it's lifting it up and i'm like how
does anybody work with this because i had done
like one one or two when i was like out of school
and i used to airbrush i used to do pet portraits
using airbrushed watercolor on top of colored
pencil Oh, interesting. I don't think I've ever
heard of that. I don't do that anymore, but yeah,
just some things I learned in school. So should
I talk about, since this is over -educated, should
I talk about my education? The origin of the
name, first of all, I think it's commentary on
the state of a lot of artists in general. I agree
with that. But it's also a place I've always
been stuck in. I found myself between a rock
and a hard place, where I was overqualified for
a lot of positions and underqualified for a lot
of positions. And I always felt like that. And
then Lee Baines III put out a song called Centerville,
a line in it that says, we're overeducated and
we're underemployed. And so he let me use that
as the title. Because it's something that I always
related to. Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, no, I think,
honestly, like, one of the things that's always
fascinated me, especially as a historian, too,
was, like, is kind of, like, the chemistry of
these, of art, because that goes into the restoration,
the preservation, and that sort of thing of older
art pieces. But also just, like... sheer curiosity
about what paint does and how. I try to use stuff
that isn't extremely toxic. I definitely don't
use turpentine, but I think it was watercolorists
that in, now see, I'm not an art historian, so
forgive me anybody if I'm giving the dates wrong,
but I think it was basically like late 19th century,
maybe mid to late 19th century, but there were
like all these different artists would get all
sorts of ailments from the watercolors they were
using. But then there was even, like, I think,
a color that was used in wallpaper that was popular
at the time, and it would mold or something and
release. I don't know, there were fumes. There
was arsenic in something, maybe the green, I
don't know. One thing I've heard a lot about
is, like, old Disney artists that were... doing
like the backgrounds for the animated movies
and doing like spray for the background. Oh,
you would definitely want to wear a particle
mask. And a lot of the times they were not provided
with that protection back then. And so a lot
of them were getting lung cancer and horrible
things like that. I definitely don't dispute
that, but I will say this, that there were these
special desks made for Disney animators. And
one of the features was that it had a place for
them to put down their cigarette. And I mean,
we're talking like the 30s. Right, exactly. They
actually had a little drawer that was made for
holding alcohol. How are they going to drink
their alcohol and smoke their cigarettes? They've
got that pesky protective equipment on. Exactly.
But no, when I would airbrush watercolors on
top of color pencil, yes, in class. And then,
of course, at home, we're always required to
wear just like a particle mask. super like your
respirator no yeah not like you're going into
the chemical warfare or anything but although
that might be a cool picture just you in front
of me spraying especially in these times i know
yeah that's but yeah i don't i haven't airbrushed
in a long time at this point you were painting
drawing from the get -go how did you find your
voice. I don't know what the right word for it
would be with visual art. Yeah, voice. Is that
right? Okay. As far as in the art world with
a capital A, they like to be able to see a painting
or whatever and recognize what artist did it.
Right. Having a real variety of styles isn't
necessarily considered a good thing in the art
world with a capital A. I can't call myself an
outsider artist, but obviously I don't have a
huge gallery representation, and I'm not in museums
or anything, and that's not really the track
that I'm going on. It doesn't usually happen
until... Until after you're dead. Yeah, that's
exactly what I was going to say. I'm so glad
you finished it for me. I was like, how morbid
can we get here? If you've looked at some of
my artwork, some of it can be really morbid.
I'm excited. We're going to get into that. for
sure and that's part of what your voice you would
say your voice is that you there is like a darkness
well a lot of the voice does come from the the
school that i have because i'm actually i have
a i was a medical illustrator my very first job
was as a veterinary illustrator at the auburn
university vet school but so i have a master's
degree in medical illustration and and that involved
that was at the medical college of georgia in
augusta now it's augusta university or part of
augusta university there was the cadaver lab
so like we had to there were eight of us in my
class although one dropped out after the first
medical exam the first gross anatomy exam yeah
but yeah we had cadaver lab and there were like
50 it was with the med students that were on
the track to be doctors and there were 50, there
were, so there were 200 students that were taking
gross anatomy. So there were, I guess there were
50 cadavers. Wait, am I doing the math right?
Something like that, yeah. There were two rooms
full of cadavers. You're an artist, not a mathematician.
I also, I draw pictures because I can't communicate
verbally, so. Nobody ever, that's a joke. I think
you're doing great. That's a joke, and I say
that to people from time to time, and not one
person has ever been like. I guess that's true.
I can see. So anyway, what was I saying? But
yeah, so we had all these cadavers in the lab
and two dissection teams. So we had four, like
we would alternate days. So there were four,
like the like med students that would dissect
the cadaver one day. And then four medical illustrators
came in like the other, like it was alternating.
And we each had our cadaver. Where it was just
the, so you're on the same cadaver and ours didn't
have a stomach. He had been a pest control man
and he died at 48 from cancer. Wow. Probably
related to all the poison that he was spraying.
If you want to talk about not having tools to
help keep you safe. I'm curious, did you form
like a sort of personal connection with the cadaver?
Working with the same one over time? I mean,
I feel like you'd have to in some way, in a weird
way. Yeah, I mean, it was like our cadaver, and
he had almost no fat on him. Did you know his
name? And I'm not asking you to share it. They
never post the name. Okay. They tried to depersonalize.
Like, I'm asking for that. No, they didn't necessarily
try to depersonalize. I think it was just for
privacy, but they did at one point put up. the
details which is how that i knew that he was
48 years old and had died he'd been a pest in
pest control and that he had stomach cancer but
he had no stomach and a few of his anatomical
structures were fused together and he had no
fat on him because a lot most of the most cadavers
if you die normally you're gonna have some body
fat and you're having to like clean it out like
two structures and our poor dude he had no fat
on him so Can we back up for a minute? Okay,
yeah. We'll take it off of the connect, because
anybody who, people are probably not expecting
it to get this far. Yeah, yeah. But, I mean,
we can, you're fine. But I'm actually really
curious about what the kind of, what kind of
led you, first of all, I didn't even know that
it's obvious that it has to, but I didn't even
think about the fact that medical artists were,
like, that you go to school for that, right?
Yeah. Two, there's two schools of thought, I
think, as far as if you're trying to do realistic
art. And one is that if you just draw or paint
or whatever, exactly what it's going to come
out looking accurate, looking like you want to
look. And then the other school of thought, which
obviously would apply to medical illustration,
is that you really should have an understanding
of what it is that you're drawing or painting.
I probably lean, obviously, from my schooling,
lean towards the understanding of the anatomy.
Right. I think that's, like, fascinating and
great. And also, like, I'm thinking about, like,
people who paint horses, right? I used to paint
horses. So I think understanding the anatomy
of the horse is super important because, like,
otherwise, like, my muscles look weird. There's
all these, like, things that just, like, you
get into that uncanny valley kind of thing where
it's, yeah, it looks almost like a horse, but
not quite. But what I really want to get into
though is like what led to the decision to go
to school to be a medical illustrator. Because
I think this is like a unique thing and I'm not
sure like how much of your voice was shaped by
your schooling and how much your voice led to
your schooling. It was definitely a little from
column A, a little from column B. My dad was
a surgeon. He was a urologist with a private
practice. discouraged me and my sister from ever
wanting to meet doctors because it is it's like
you're you really do have to be available 24
7 and we only lived up we lived like five minutes
from the hospital even on saturdays and sundays
he would have to go in he'd drive into the hospital
and make his rounds and see his patients and
if he wanted to take off time to travel somewhere
obviously you take a financial hit because he
would have to stop doing any surgical procedures
for maybe a couple weeks leading up to in case
somebody had a problem he didn't want to be out
of town and then a patient had a problem because
we lived in a small town so he was the only urologist
there but i had an interest in medical stuff
and like coming from a scientific family and
my parents were from chicago my dad was from
the south side of chicago and he was in the army
and we moved around and we wound up in south
carolina And in a very small town in South Carolina,
in the middle of the woods and swamp. And my
parents loved it. And my dad especially loved
it. And he got like really into nature. So I
definitely had the parents like, okay, art and
nature and then medicine. So all of these things
coming together. And one thing that I loved when
I was little was the, I think the brand is the
Golden Nature Field Guides. to think what kind
of kid is into this but this is actually inspiring
what i'm working on for this year a project that's
probably going to take all year but these these
field guides have like very realistic color paintings
in them of different things one of my favorites
is the non -flowering plants with mushrooms and
ferns and mosses i was always really into mosses
and so it it has like little paragraphs about
how to identify each thing. And then a really
well done, a really nicely done color painting
of everything. So that was always a part of my
aesthetic. And then when I found out that scientific
illustration existed, that was when I was in
college and I was just an art major and like
just drawing, I was in drawing and painting.
And I ran into a girl. at a concert at the omni
it was the rap concert yeah no i've seen i saw
right which is embarrassing but so i went personally
i went to this concert and i saw this girl that
i recognized there and then she actually lived
on my dorm and i taught her afterwards and she
was like oh i'm in this program called scientific
illustration i was like what what is this scientific
illustration of which you speak and so it was
combining science and art basically So we went
to this concert and it was the Omni, which held
a lot of people. And I was surprised that I recognized
this girl who I'd seen in my dorm. But later
on, we were talking about the concert like the
next week or something. And that's where she
told me that her major was scientific illustration.
And I was like, huh. And I also talk about underemployed.
Like, I will say that I was like, OK, my parents
will be happy to hear that because that did sound
like more of a track to a job. Yeah. where i
could use because i was like oh wow i can just
draw drawn paints mosses or mushrooms or a human
bone or something and so it almost reminds me
of like a morbid version of a police sketch artist
i think the police sketch artist is more morbid
if you ask me but because because they're trying
to like and i don't know how do you do it and
you're like okay did he what did his nose look
like yeah i imagine they must have these questions
that they asked and i've never had to like it's
like a really up version of guess who yeah the
card i don't know i remember there was what was
the show there was this show that was on there
were like three episodes of it like bakersfield
pd and they had the police sketch artist and
he'd be like does this look familiar and they'd
be like oh blue eyes or something and he was
just like sketching celebrities i don't know
but so i never did learn what the method is that
they use for that but i'm sure there's some really
they must have some super duper training for
that but so did you have like a morbid curiosity
growing up aside from the medical interest or
was it pretty much strictly from your dad being
a surgeon i think it was more just medical and
scientific I wasn't ever... You're not into horror
movies? Do you ever see these things about creepy
stuff that little kids say? Like, how do I take
your bones out? And stuff like that to their
parents when they're like 10 years old and the
parents are like, what? And this is precisely
why I don't have children. You're scared of them?
Yeah, they would murder me in my sleep if they
could, I think. Is there any stories like that
about you? Is that what you're leading to? I
have a feeling that like my parents would have
whitewashed this if there was something like
that. Fair enough. So, yeah. So at what point
did you realize that you, and I'm still working
back a little bit from you starting school, but
at what point did you realize that you wanted
to be a professional artist? Was that always
or was there like a turning point as a kid? Yeah.
It's like the knowing, not necessarily knowing
about the professional part, but just knowing
that I'm an artist in the same way that from
as a toddler that I knew that I was female. And
I hope it's okay to say that because I know some
people are with it being on a spectrum. Well,
no, I think, you know, maybe not at toddlerhood,
but I think a lot of people that have transitioned
genders. Probably by age five. Yeah, at a very
young age. So I don't think that's an unfair
analogy. Yeah, like that there were like things
that I knew about myself from like age two or
three, probably. And like that I knew I was female
and I knew that I was an artist in the same way,
which is like a really strong feeling that, yes,
I'm an artist. But at that point, I wasn't really
thinking about being a professional because I
had bank of mom and dad. Were there other things
that you... when you were a kid, like, what do
you want to be when you grow up or anything like
that? I guess not. I may have at some point said
doctor. And I will say every single person in
the medical, all eight of us that then turned
seven in my medical illustration class, when
we were in there taking gross anatomy, all of
us had to face the question, should we be doctors
instead? We would have had to reapply and all
that. Right, right. Hadn't taken all the necessary
classes, but like all of us were like, really
into it should we yeah should we be doctors but
but yeah i'm sorry what was the question i'm
trying to figure out if you ever had a time where
you wanted to be something else or olympic sprinter
okay okay i was very fast as a child and then
i wound up with all sorts of issues with my feet
and my knees and my hips where it just was not
going to happen but boy i was like Up until puberty
hit and I had all these weird things wrong with
me, I was like so fast. That was the only other
thing was just being an Olympic sprinter. Were
you into the outdoors or were you just into running?
And also, if I use the word survivalist, I think
now it has a different connotation. I don't know,
it might be starting to come back around to the
left. But to be able to survive in the wilderness.
And not that I've ever done this, but I remember
when I was like 10 and 12 years old, I really
wanted to do a thing called outward bound. Do
they have that everywhere? I know what it is.
I said that my dad was really into nature. They
might not know what it is, but it's basically
just like a survival challenge. Yeah, and I think
you had to be at least 16 to do it, but they
put you out in the woods with just a knife for
a week, and you're supposed to survive. Which
really isn't, I don't know, theoretically you
could go a week without any food at all. I feel
like that is probably child abuse in some states,
too. But no, you may have had to be 18, I don't
know. It was like at least 16, and I was not
old enough to do it. And then I was off in college
and didn't think about it anymore. But yeah,
my dad held all these nature books, and so I
haven't actually put them into practice, but
I know different things, like how to make a snare
out of a sapling. different ways to like set
a trap to take down a deer and things like that
but i've never actually used them and i don't
kill animals have you ever incorporated any of
that kind of stuff into your art the no like
the survival the survivalist no because unless
you count that i can forage for items in the
woods that i then use in my paintings but that's
about the extent of it i mean that's actually
exactly what i meant to be honest with you yeah
yeah but yeah not leaving a trap or anything
if i find bones or moth wings or something they're
just the animal's already dead and it's right
there on the fourth floor and then i just pick
it up so that's pretty hard to sing ethically
no i'm not setting traps for them but no no and
i was also wondering i've seen some interesting
art pieces that i guess they were more like sculpture
type things that incorporated and they were usually
more of a protest against like animal abuse but
it would incorporate things like traps or anything
like that yeah i've done some pieces about animal
abuse i did one piece that i really liked that
so i it was a cat skull that my mom found in
the woods and i'm going to be doing another painting
with it fairly soon but and then an egg somebody's
pet chicken had laid an egg and they they let
me use it and it was like this like a green some
of these types of chickens that aren't the kind
where you find their eggs in the grocery stores
they have different colors so it was a so it
was called or no i called it some are more equal
that's what i called it but it was about the
way that you have some animals that are considered
pets and then others are considered food yeah
and i guess the chicken kind of confuses the
point nowadays because it's like some people
eat them some people keep them as pets Some people
will eat them in front of them. Yeah, some people
eat them and keep them as pets. But not the same
ones. Hopefully not. I hope not, because it's...
I just don't think that the chickens that lay
eggs are good eating. That's all. I think they
put them in a chicken soup when they're done
laying eggs. Yeah, there you go. But so anyway,
so yeah, that's... So yeah, I have had some about
animal abuse, but... I think like... The industrial
nature of our farming practices is what has made
consuming meat really hard to ethically justify
now, more than anything else. The survivalist
type aspect of it is a lot different. Put a snare
and catch a rabbit. At least the rabbit lived
its life. Yeah, yeah. And also, it was dumb enough
to get caught. That's right. It wasn't raised
to be killed. Anyway, so when you're in school
for medical illustration, what made you decide
that you definitely weren't going to go and be
a doctor instead? Was there any point where you
were like, no, I'm glad I'm here? Or was there
anything that was like... Just reminding myself
that I just really like doing art. And then with
my dad, he was always talking about the extreme
responsibility of having to be a doctor. Well,
yeah, it's a lot of pressure. It is. And I think
especially being a surgeon and with him, that
you have to make these very fast decisions that
may or may not kill somebody. Yeah. So, yeah,
I just was like, yeah, I can't see myself having
that amount of responsibility and having to have
somebody's life in my hands. Yeah. What did you
do after you finished college? So college was
here at UGA and that was scientific illustration,
although technically it was interdisciplinary
studies. They had a program for it, but they
didn't have it as like a degree. But they had
classes and they had all sorts of classes and
everything. And that was where I learned to airbrush.
And then I went to, 10 days after I graduated,
started Medical College of Georgia. And that
was for the master's degree program. And then
I got a job before I graduated, but I didn't
graduate, like I said, at the vet school at Auburn
University. And that was extra fun because that
was with animals. Yeah. And that's where you
were doing the horse illustrations? I had been
painting horses. We had horses when I was growing
up, so I was painting horses for a long time.
That was the main thing that I would tend to
paint. So that was a thing you were passionate
about? early on okay did you find it particularly
because i think horses historically in art like
it's something that people have talked about
cats too i think like cats have always looked
a little bit off until they didn't but there's
like these animals a couple of groups of animals
that like artists historically really always
babies in the medieval like the whole creepy
and like The baby Jesus, but he looks like he's
two years old, but he's an infant. That whole
weirdness. But yeah, horses. I think the main
thing with horses, and occasionally you will
find an artist from back then. Have you ever
seen a horse in your life? And you probably have
because they were around a lot more. But no,
there were plenty of artists. And like George
Stubbs, I guess, was a really good one. And he
did a great job with the horse, like painting
horses. But they didn't understand the horse's
gait. I'm so surprised that they, because if
you look at all of these old paintings, it's
always, they have the horse running like a deer
and both hind feet are on the ground and it's
leaping or something. I'm really surprised that
they didn't figure out that it's a little bit
different than that. But that was how, as, again,
I'm not an art historian, so hopefully I'm not
just saying something that's completely incorrect.
But as far as I understand it, that was the first
movie made was... Yeah, this is also a podcast,
not a documentary, so you're fine. I think it
actually had to do with a vet about how horses
were actually galloping. So they had a racehorse,
and they set up cameras, and it finally showed,
this is how a horse actually gallops, and it
looks nothing like these artists have been doing.
Side note, when I was painting horses as a kid
and as a... young adult i was an expert on the
gallop the trot the walk and the legs that was
one of my that was one of my strong things where
i was i would have considered myself an expert
on that back then maybe not so much now but so
sorry 18th century painters sorry y 'all dropped
the ball so at what point did you uh start to
find your voice? Was it in college? Was it before
then? Was it all of the above? It wasn't until
about 15 or wait yeah 15 it's been 15 years.
I wasted quite a bit of time. I shouldn't say
it's a waste but I was trying to develop a technique
that was like a style of art because everybody
always says that the most recent thing like that
was cubism and what I mean by a style of art
is that if you picture cubism or impressionism,
for example, and you could look at a still life
or a portrait or a landscape painted in a cubist
style or an impressionist style, and you'd be
like, hey, that's impressionism. And it wasn't
dependent on the subject matter. And I had come
up with something that was promising, and I'm
going to call it like a motion blur technique,
but I kept trying to develop that. I probably,
I shouldn't say I wasted it, but like I spent
several years like trying to work out something
with that. You feel like you, not wasted, but
you feel like you just maybe got hung up on the
technicalities of some things a little bit. Well,
and then I realized it's like the art isn't,
the art is about the message of the art and it's
not really about the technique used. So that's
why I was like, forget it. I'm just going back
to realism and worrying about the meaning of
the piece, the message of the piece. You made
a video pretty recently about, like, constraint
being a blessing. Oh, yes, the limits. Do you
think that was a way of, like, placing a constraint
on yourself and then taking it off? Or, like,
how do you think that relates to that experience
there? I think you were putting constraints on
yourself by trying to develop a technique. I
was, yes, I was. And then in that case, though,
it did help me realize that. The constraint was
like, okay, it's really not about the technique.
And even if I come up with this new technique,
then that's not what I want to do. I'm not explaining
this very well, am I? No, I think you're fine.
I think that there's time. So I think about the
Hollywood Code, for instance, and how there were
all these things that they were not allowed to
show. Oh. Right? there are all these constraints
they had but what happened was like all this
symbolic imagery they got fireworks to display
instead of or a train going through a tunnel
exactly like all of these little like kind of
visual references that they would that became
artistic expression because of the rules that
they had to follow but then there's other times
where i think when you're like placing artificial
constraints upon yourself it can be like a detriment.
How do you know the difference? How do you know
when to know the difference, I guess? I think
when you realize that it's not working out like
you want it to, which would be what happened
where I was trying to develop the motion blur
technique. But yeah, I've been happy with the
constraints that I've added for myself because
when I started doing these still lifes, and I
mentioned this in the video, i'm assuming that
the viewers haven't they'll probably watch it
after this if you haven't yet but yeah like i
started doing still lifes of assembled objects
and i had even bought a couple of like a briar
like a miniature horse like a model not an actual
horse i mean like not a little sebastian yeah
not a little sebastian but but like a little
horse sculpture and then i had an uh a coffee
that's like the an unusual animal and I was going
to put those into still lifes and then right
away when I did them I decided no I would rather
just use natural or organic objects and in the
beginning I would even go to the grocery store
and I would get like a juicy strawberry and pair
it with a seashell that I found or like a flower
or something that I bought in the store and so
that was one constraint that I had was that it
has to be something organic. And I found that,
and that helps you hone, like, what direction
you're going to. And then after a few years into
that, I was, I decided that it was only going
to be, like, forged natural objects, so nothing
I could buy at a store. Yeah. And it doesn't
necessarily mean that I have to find it myself,
because, like I said, I do have the cat skull
that my mom found, and I have a really cool fossil
shell that Chris found one time over at the beach.
But it's... It's stuff that you would find in
the woods or the swamp or wherever as opposed
to buying them in the store. And to me, that
has been really freeing because then it's a matter
of what I can do with the materials that I find
and trying to work within my own language, really,
of using these. So it's been very helpful to
keep me in direction because I especially think
with people who are naturally very creative,
is that they want to go in all different directions
at one time if you can come up with some constraints
that you enjoy and that you think gets to the
heart of the matter then that's good if you find
that they're too limiting and you're not liking
you're not having any fun with it or you're not
being inspired then that would probably be the
sign to change it but i think i also used the
example of in an admin class that i took where
we had to write a scene at the beginning of class
and the teacher would give us some it's gonna
it's got to be about a family conflict and then
here's this line you've got to put in there that
was way easier than the time that he came in
was like yeah just write whatever you want what
are we supposed to write now yeah yeah or tell
me about your summer or so it sounds like when
you stopped putting those kind of artificial
technical constraints on your work is when you
started to really work on this book. And I'm
going to go ahead and hold up. And this book
just came out. It's called Artistic Alchemy.
And I just got my copy today, so I'm really excited
for it. But all of the kind of constraints that
you've been talking about are the constraints
that you put on yourself when developing this
book. Yes, although you can see the earlier paintings,
they still have like flowers and fruit and stuff
that I would have bought at the store. Is it
okay to show a couple of these? Sure. So this
may be something. So this would be an example
of a, can anybody want to send it? If not, I
can. Okay. Yeah. It's a golden barrel cactus
that I purchased at a store and then a lily.
which, by the way, is very toxic to humans and
a lot of animals like cats. So I'm glad I'm not
using anything like that anymore, bringing it
into my house, because I have cats. Yeah, I have
cats, too. So I don't have lilies around them.
So is it in chronological order, then? Yes. That's
really interesting. Pretty much. I might have,
with earlier paintings, might not be in exact
order, but, I mean, at least it goes from starting
from the earlier years to the later years. The
later years. And how many years does this...
of work does this culminate in? It goes up to
2025, because I just made it in 2025. Well, let
me see, what was the, I don't remember what's
the first, they don't have the copyright date.
Is that the first, is that the first one is the,
what does it say, 2015? I was thinking 2013.
Okay, there you go. So 2013, I think, is the
earliest. Gotcha. So 12 years of painting. Yeah.
Is it all painting? Yes, it's all painting. And
it's all oil on canvas, and I don't paint the
background. I just leave it the white background
of the unpainted canvas. I feel like that is
maybe a throwback to medical illustrations, and
you're maybe inspired by that. It is, because
if I painted a shadow, like a cast shadow, I
could really make these items in the still life
just pop. like they're jumping like they're floating
over the page or sitting right there on the page
with a cast shadow that is something that you
do basically avoid in in scientific illustration
and medical illustration you usually would leave
the shadows out but when i was a senior in college
like my very last quarter here i took a watercolor
class and one of the things that we had to do
was paint a mossy log a mossy log like a stick
as you can imagine since i love moss like that
was super awesome i just found one at my at my
parents house and we had to paint it realistically
and of course i did a great job on that one and
then after i was done the teacher was like oh
you can put in a cast shadow and i was like nope
partially because i was afraid i was going to
ruin it right but i was like you know what it
doesn't really need a shadow you can it still
looks three -dimensional without it and but that
kind of became part of your voice then it did
it absolutely did and And some of that is for
time. I could take the time to paint. When I
first started doing these still lifes, I would
do them in one day, and it was just an a la prima
all at once. And I would have a fabric background,
and so that would take extra, and then paint
the shadow. And at some point, I was like, these
backgrounds aren't adding anything. It would
be so much faster if I just didn't paint them
at all. And this is available to order on Amazon.
And I've got a link to it in the description
of this episode, so make sure that you check
it out. One other thing I wanted to ask you about,
a theme that commonly comes up on this podcast
is, I've interviewed people that create music
just because they love music, and I've interviewed
musicians and artists that create because...
it helps them process things it helps them and
like bad things can happen if they don't express
themselves the healthy ways or or handling trauma
or things like that and I was wondering how much
of it for you it sounds like you had an innate
love of art your whole life but I also am curious
like how much of it is a is like a transformative
like processing or even healing thing for you
A lot of it is, and that's where I use the term
alchemy, artistic alchemy, because I am taking
usually two different objects that wouldn't necessarily
be put together, two different natural objects,
and assembling them into something. But a lot
of it is for dealing with trauma, not just for
myself, but for other people, and trying to make
something positive. I think I have one in the
book. A piece that I did about female genital
mutilation, which is not something I, that's
generally not really done around here. It's not
something I have personally experienced. I don't,
as far as I know, I don't even know anybody who's
personally experienced it, but I still thought
I should do something about the topic. And hopefully,
if anybody who could survive that saw the artwork
would find it uplifting. And it also is. It's
to send a message about this is something that
should not be happening. But hopefully, but with
stuff that may be not as extreme as the female
genital mutilation, but other things I've had
people who have survived trauma tell me that
they feel seen and that it helps them feel better
about the experience. For me, the main thing
like... The main paintings like that would be
the Welling Up series, which have to do with
having loved ones who are in terrible health.
And then also there, I think I've got two in
here that are called Uncaptive. So it's like
a very small series. But when I was four years
old, I escaped a kidnapping attempt. And honestly,
I never really felt safe since then. But yeah,
so I did a couple of pieces. Having to deal with
that, or talking about that. Although, I don't
know that many people that have escaped kidnapping
attempts. There's like a Gen X meme about them
that says something like, oh, you talk to any
person, any Gen X person, and their day, they
tell you about a day that starts with them making
breakfast and then escaping a kidnapping attempt
or something. So, like, how did I get such a
good idea? Like stranger danger or something?
Yeah. Is that a story you're willing to... We
didn't really have stranger danger. I was just,
my parents informed me that there are people
who want to take children off the street, and
some of them do it because they can't have a
baby and they want a child, and then some of
them do it because they want to murder a child.
They didn't talk about other stuff in between,
but anyway. So basically when the man tried to
order me into his car, I... you know, and was
screaming at me to get into this car, I did not
get in – I ran. And luckily, my husband Chris
actually found out years later, based on things
that I had said, like, it never occurred to me
that maybe we could figure out who it was. And
I don't – he – basically, yes, we figured out
who it was. Oh, wow. We figured out who it was
from the timing and from the description, and
he actually took it upon himself, because I'd
been telling him the story for ever since we
knew each other and then he after i went to bed
he was like looking stuff up and pinned it down
to two people and that were rather notorious
in south carolina and i'm afraid to say who the
person was because i know that there's still
like a lot of living relatives the person was
executed by the state of south carolina but gotcha
but i remember but one of my husband was like
okay was it larry gene bell and i was like no
because i remember what he looked like no that
was not the person but and then he was like well
that's probably and then i was like it sounds
like it's public information but not related
to me right exactly yeah but yeah the person
was executed not because of me but yeah but he
did did painting those paintings help you feel
safer a little bit yes it was nice to address
it and it gave me a reason to talk about it because
it is weird to bring up this man who was going
to very violently murder me like trying to force
trying to get me into his car and luckily he
wasn't trying very hard to get me because i'm
sure he could have jumped out of the car and
run because i was playing in the street by myself
this was before we lived in the woods and i was
just two houses down from my own house and by
myself and that's all it takes and there's security
cameras back then so that would have been it
but yeah so anyway but yeah he was Apparently,
somebody turned the guy in, now that we know
who it was, like, a month or two after that happened.
And what's interesting is that he had a car that
fit the description of the car that he had been
in. He had been killing kids? Kids, adults. It's
weird, because, like, usually people like that,
they have a type. But he didn't. It was, like,
men, women, children, old people, his own nieces.
So, yeah. Wow, wow. Holy shit. I know, I know.
I'm glad you knew to run. That was, I was unarmed,
but my parents at least told me that, to not
get in the car with somebody. But, yeah. I actually
was thinking about doing a series about this.
I'm worried that it would sound somewhat like
victim -blaming because it's not, but I think
it's like the way... that girls and women are
raised in this country, and not just this country,
but most parts of the world, actually, where
we're supposed to be nice and polite. But the
series would be called Good Girls Gone Missing.
And I remember years ago, there was some, like,
9 - or 10 -year -old who had been, they believed
she had been kidnapped. And I don't know whatever
happened to her, but her... Her classmates were
saying, like, what a nice girl she was and what
a sweet girl she was. And I remember at this
time, and I was already an adult, of course,
and thinking, like, nobody would have described
me as being a nice, sweet person when I was four
years old. And then I thought, but I was also,
like, not so nice that I got in the car with
somebody just because he was telling me to get
in the car. Like I said, I'm worried that would
sound like victim -blind because I don't know
what the circumstance was of this particular
child. But I just think that we... I think if
you zoom out, instead of thinking about any one
specific, but if you zoom out and think about
how that learned behavior does put people, women,
and kids of all kinds, I think, too. But specifically
with women, where you're not supposed to say
no. especially to a male. Be polite to a man,
and it's like, that man, don't. I think that
when you talk about the societal norm that needs
to be addressed, that's not victim blaming at
all. That's legitimate. But I do think that is
putting children at risk of well i think the
new reaction to that is things like stranger
danger which isn't necessarily the healthiest
way to handle that because then what if it's
a person that's related i think the thing that
they say about nowadays is like tricky people
it's not necessarily a stranger and it's and
a lot of times it is but how are you supposed
to make friends if you don't talk to strangers
You would hope that if you're like eight years
old, then another eight year old is hopefully
not going to have the power to do anything like
that with you. What kind of led to the decision
to put all of this into a book? Was that always
the plan or was it something that you had? I
probably came after you started doing the paintings.
Oh, after I started doing the paintings, I had
the idea in the back of my mind for a while.
It did seem like the past year or two, everybody
I knew has had a book come out. My husband has,
he did one that's 599 pages. And that's because
on the Amazon direct publish, 600 is the limit
for a paperback. But basically, no, I did this
back in November after. So I had a cardiac ablation
and I was like basically just lying in bed for
a week and I couldn't really do anything. But
then I was, Christmas was coming up and I was
wanting to have. a book of my art made for my
mom as a christmas gift and i was thinking like
i had done one before like years ago using shutterfly
so i was thinking like shutterfly or nation soda
lab and then chris was like why don't you just
do it on amazon and then i was like this is brilliant
because i had been trying to think of ways to
sell my art where i don't have to ship it like
digital downloads and stuff and then and he was
like and then you can have it on amazon of course
like with dummy i have it on my website also
where i would have to ship it out if people want
a signed copy but if you don't want to sign copy
it's just on amazon and you can buy it and i
don't have to i don't have to package it up or
anything because i don't enjoy that part of it
but yeah so basically then i was having to just
lie around and i thought i had it put together
in in a day and a half, which was basically like
just gathering where I was starting with the
more recent artwork and just gathering it and
where I had written statements about them. And
then I realized that for a hardcover book, which
is what Chris said, you ought to do a hardcover
book. It needed a minimum number of pages, the
opposite of his problem with his 599 page book.
So then I had to like scramble and okay, I've
got to dig up like the older artwork and put
that into. And then there were a few places where
I hadn't written a statement about the artwork.
So then I had to think real carefully and come
up with something quickly. Yeah. Yeah, so I put
it together very quickly, and there it is. You
painted for 12 years, and then you put it together
very quickly. Yeah, because I worked on it on
a Saturday, and then Sunday morning I'm like,
okay, by noon I'm going to be done with this,
and I'm going to upload it. And then I tried
to upload it and they're like, ahem, you need
to add like a bunch more pages to it. And I was
like, crap. What size canvas do you typically
paint on? The biggest I've done, not counting
the signboard that I did in acrylics that was
for outdoor display in Watkinsville, five by
four foot. That is, that doesn't sound that big.
That is actually huge. That's the biggest one
I've done. That does not fit in my car. That
does not fit in most cars because of the wheel
and to display it in. some shows i had to basically
rent a van for it so i'm not doing that anymore
but so most of my paintings i was doing 22 by
28 which made it easy to do and which this wasn't
how i planned it that way i just thought that
was like a good size but then you could do an
11 by 14 print of it yeah it reduced down without
having to alter to a standard size without having
to like crop anything or worry about that but
right now the series i'm doing feral feminism,
I'm doing 11 by 14 paintings. Partially because
I'm running out of room in my house. But also
to get it done more quickly because the project
I'm doing this year that I expect to take most
of the year is going to be a field guide, like
a nature guide, but feral feminism field guide.
And it's going to have my paintings about feral
feminism, which are going to be animal bones.
So far it's skulls. Combined with feathers, and
these are, of course, all ethically sourced,
meaning they're just on the ground. I'm not killing
any animals to get them there. The animal's already
dead, and oh, there's a nice skull. I will gather
that up and use it. But then what's a little
bit different about this project, and I'm planning
for it to be a digital download and maybe even
a book, like on Amazon, but I'm going to also
have sketches in there. like a nature journal.
If you've never seen like a nature sketchbook
or a nature art journal of different things relating
to the paintings and then some text to go with
it which is where I'm a little bit more out of
my element and then I'm going to do a series
of videos about making the project and this is
going to be a little bit different from my creativity
tips because those are all standalone and don't
have to relate to one another and I'm trying
to figure out how to do like a series of videos
about this project and having it more of telling
a story about it yeah obviously it'll relate
because it's okay um here's this painting i'm
working on now but so can you tell us a little
bit about the inspiration for your creativity
tips youtube channel and oh okay kind of what
what that's about and what you're doing with
it a couple different things i had seen something
so this would have been late in 2024 that I was
thinking about doing a channel of these tips,
I saw something that was basically asking, what
are you an expert on? And the only thing I could
think of was creativity. And I'm surprised. I've
done 61 videos now. They're not all live yet.
I have them. It's a struggle trying to keep up.
So I'll do three on a Saturday, and it takes
forever to upload. And I don't even edit them.
Except to cut off. the beginning and end where
i'm like starting the camera did that millennial
pause to do that if i had gotten a camera with
a remote but anyway um but yeah so what am i
an expert on and the only thing i could think
of was creativity i'm not an expert on painting
or art or anything like that and then and then
i guess the other thing what was it like my sister
had retired and so she's doing like a lot of
volunteer work and like on the board of the board
of directors at her local animal shelter and
trying to make a difference that way and so I
was thinking of that too and I did a little bit
of research on YouTube to look for creativity
tips before I got started and I found almost
nothing and I was like maybe nobody is interested
in creativity tips but I thought probably the
more likely thing is that people just don't know
what to say. Because I had to start examining
my own process and then realizing more and more.
And occasionally somebody will give me a suggestion
or an idea. But I talk about this in one of my
videos. Not as many as yours, though. I make
a lot of clips from the long videos, so it probably
looks like there's a lot more than there are.
But mine, I only remember getting one creativity
tip at all in college and med school. Which,
to be fair, I think there was an understanding
that, like, okay, if you're at this level, you're
already creative. And then also, like, both programs
were focused on realism and things like that.
But the one tip was know the rules so that you
can break them. And I did do a video about that.
But that was literally the only tip I got, except
possibly my least favorite tip. I may have heard
the, you've all heard it, think outside the box.
Which really is, like, not a good tip because,
so I did a video about that was basically, you're
not going to be able to think outside your box.
You just have to expand the box. Yeah. Because
I've seen different things that, like, different
articles. That makes a lot more sense. I have
seen different articles that were supposed to
be promoting how you need to think outside the
box, and they were doing the opposite. And I
swear sometimes I'm like, where am I dreaming
up these things? But anyway, like. Years ago,
I had read an article promoting the whole thing
outside the box, and it was supposedly about
these scientists that were studying anatomy,
and they couldn't... I think it was about kidney
tubules. I don't know. I could find nothing when
I went back and tried it before I did this tip,
so maybe I dreamed this. But pretend this is
what happened because it still worked. It was
something like this. So these scientists are
like... what do these things do we can't figure
out the function and they had a drawing up on
a blackboard or whatever and an engineer who
happened to be in came in and walked into the
room and he's that looks exactly like whatever
engineering thing yeah yeah and the scientists
were like oh my god that turned out to be its
function it was exactly the engineering so they're
like see the engineer was thinking outside the
box no he wasn't he was thinking within his engineer's
box Yeah, exactly. That proves the opposite of
what they were trying to say in that article.
He was thinking within his engineer's box. It
was a totally different box than the scientists
had. And they really had no hope of thinking
like an engineer unless they had somehow studied
that. Yeah, yeah. So that was just my advice
for that is you're not going to be able to think
outside your box. You're not going to know engineering
stuff unless you've studied engineering, even
if maybe casually. So all you can do is just
try to expand that box by learning about whatever
interests you and maybe some stuff that doesn't
interest you. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, so those
are like literally, and I don't even know for
sure that I heard the think outside the box from
a college professor, but maybe I did. I don't
know. It sounds like something we all said that
is simple. Everybody hears that. But like I said,
it really isn't, it really isn't the useful advice.
It's basically think of something that you. think
of something that nobody else has ever thought
of just something completely different we don't
know how you're going to do that but just do
it and that's why i could do that amanda it's
been really great talking to you is there anything
else you want to mention before we wrap this
up is there anything that you want to you feel
like you left out i don't oh i should mention
that as of less than a year ago so last year
My husband and another artist and I formed the
Thirteen Collective. Thank you. I was about to
say. I knew you wrote that. And that's spelled
T -H -U -R -T -I -N -E. And there is a link to
that in the description as well for everybody
listening. Oh, okay. Good, good. Thank you for
that. Yeah. My husband, Chris McKay, and then
artist Lindsay Swan and I came up with this idea.
Chris and I had actually been talking about doing
a collective for a while. And then we met Lindsay
at, she had a solo art opening and some mutual
friends introduced us. And it's exciting because
there's like a picture of the three of us together
the night we met. And it turned into this really
awesome partnership. And we did one show at CineLab
back in September. Yeah. We have different. I
think that's actually how I first got on your
radar. Okay, good. Or you got on my radar rather.
believe it or not the theme of the show we've
got coming up probably in may is artistic alchemy
and that was not my idea but but we were but
we wanted to be about neurodivergence and trauma
and healing and things like that so we artistic
alchemy is our actual theme and what's the date
of that we have a tentative date set for may
16th okay and may 15th i have a a solo show at
tiny gallery awesome which is a really great
place to you to visit to see a show there or
have a show there if you're an artist that sounds
great yeah that's two days in a row so that's
really cool i will i'll make sure that we get
this out like right around and then we can use
it to promote both sounds good it sounds good
it's been really great talking to you amanda
thank you so much this is my first podcast so
Hopefully it won't be your last. Yeah. Thanks
so much for being here. Thank you. I hope you
enjoyed my talk with Amanda McKay. I thought
she's just a really fun person to talk to, but
also what a fascinating career. I really want
to learn more and more about veterinary art.
It's really interesting to me now. Anyway, thanks
for listening, y 'all. I really appreciate it.
I hope you've enjoyed that. Make sure to check
out her new book, Artistic Alchemy. Make sure
to check out her YouTube channel. There's a link
in the description. She's doing a feminist field
guide right now. She's also doing motivational
creative videos. She's working on all kinds of
stuff. There's also a link to her book, Artistic
Alchemy, in the description. You can get that
on Amazon. Thanks so much for tuning in, y 'all.
I have launched a Patreon just to give you a
way to support the show if you'd like. The link
for that's in the description. You will get early
access and maybe the occasional extra video,
but it really is just a way for you to directly
support the show. Thanks for listening, y 'all.
Hit that subscribe button, hit like. We'll see
you next week.