WEBVTT

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I just need to get a cab from wherever I am.

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And I get off the train platform and I reach

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my hand back through my pocket and it goes straight

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clean through my pocket. So they had, they cut

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down. I was asleep and apparently they cut down

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the side of it, slipped the pocket out. And so

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like my wallet was gone, everything. Then I tried

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to get back on the train platform and they won't

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let me on because I don't have a ticket. Hey,

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y 'all. It's homecoming week for you drive -by

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truckers fans out there like me. We got a lot

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going on this week, too. It's a really exciting

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week here. We got Wiley Gaby here. Wiley Gaby

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is... One of the newest members to Dial Back

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Sound. Their single comes out this Friday, February

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13th, on all streaming platforms. They're playing

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the Dial Back Sound showcase at Flickr before

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the show at the 40 Watt this Friday, too. So

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make sure you come on by for that and check him

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out, man. We had the best talk. It's a long one.

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But there's a couple other things I want to tell

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you about. Sloan Brothers' new record, Love Another

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Diagnosis, comes out this Friday as well. There's

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going to be a special talk at Cine. If you're

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in Athens for Drive -By Truckers Homecoming,

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make sure you come out to that. It's going to

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be really cool. Glenn Rosher is heading that

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up. Jay is going to play some songs off of the

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new Sloan Brothers record, Jay Gonzalez's. It's

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going to be a really great time. Make sure you

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come check that out. Also, February 27th at the

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Blue Tavern, we got Danny Bedrosian presented

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by this podcast. performing P -Funk songs from

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1975 based on his new book, Make My Funk the

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P -Funk. And then on April 11th at Phipps Park

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in Tallahassee, there's the P -Funk Fest. I'm

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going to be there covering that event. We're

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going to do some live broadcasts from that event.

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Going to be interviewing all kinds of members

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of the Parliament Funkadelic family. So make

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sure you hit that subscribe button. Please like

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this episode if you like it. Drive safe to Athens

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if you're heading there. And if you're not, I

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hope you at least... Have some fun doing whatever

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you do this weekend. Thanks for listening, and

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here's my interview with Wiley Gaby. We're on

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Overeducated and Underemployed. I'm here with

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Wiley Gaby, and I'm going to just start by asking

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you the same question I ask everybody that's

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on here. What's the first song that you remember

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loving as a kid? Oh, Lord. Just a Swingin' by

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John Anderson. I think that's just a swing. I

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used to sing that all the time, and my parents

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would have me sing it for other people. You were

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very sure, too. You didn't even hesitate. Yeah.

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It's like for a large portion of my childhood,

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they would have me just sing that song, and that

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was a song that I sang as my little three -year

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-old entertaining self before I was aware. I

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guess I just really loved that song. You don't

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even necessarily remember it. It's just like

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you've been told that. I definitely remember

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singing it at times, and I remember changing

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the names to my quote -unquote girlfriend at

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the time. My best friend who was like, I guess

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maybe when I was four, she was three, Allison

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Dotson. Anyway, the song is, There's a little

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girl in our neighborhood. Her name is Charlotte

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Johnson. I would sing Allison Dotson. Anyway.

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I remember that song now that you're singing.

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I'm like, okay. I remember that song. It's not

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an amazing song. It is amazing. I love you, John

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Anderson. It is. But it's a very simple song.

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It's got very simple lyrics. That was my first

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cover hit. So you were in love with music right

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away then? I think so, yeah. Dolly Parton and

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me singing. Apparently my mom would tell me that

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I would sing to myself and soothe myself with

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just nonsense sounds and musical stuff when I

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was in the stroller. But I definitely, I don't

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remember a time that it wasn't like just something

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that was, I was doing or just did naturally.

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I feel like still even I just walk around the

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house singing and making sounds, which probably

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drives everybody I know crazy. When did you like

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become aware of that? Because it sounds like

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it's almost like an eight. It feels that way.

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I definitely. My parents, who've always been

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pretty supportive, very supportive, I think they

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noticed something. And my dad is very much, I

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think that made him proud. So he'd be like, get

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up there and sing a song. Look what he can do,

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kind of thing. And so I got that praise probably,

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which I'm sure I did not hate. I'm sure I liked

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that attention. But also, it just, so I was encouraged.

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And we went to church regularly, so that was

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like. You'd see that in church, and I'd see certain

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ladies singing, and we had a couple of really

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great singers, and I remember one lady, Mina

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Sutton, who would sing, and I'd be like, oh,

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I want to do what she's doing. I'm going to do

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that. So did you start singing in the church?

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Pretty as soon as I could. My first time on stage

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in a play and singing was in a church musical

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when I was like six or seven years old. And I

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was like, this is it for me. I'll be doing this.

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So was it musicals for you at first? Was that

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kind of your first love of performing? Yeah,

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I think I would say that my first love in that

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world was Dolly Parton. And I think that started

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like very young. So I wanted to, I'm sure that

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was part of me that wanted to be her. And that

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was my like touchstone in a lot of ways. And

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so. And that always, whatever she was doing was,

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like, interesting to me. I wanted to, at about

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eight years old, I think I wanted to do it all.

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I would be like, I'm going to be a country music

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singer, and I'm going to be an actor, and I'm

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going to be a writer, and I'm going to be these

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five other things. You're watching her movies

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and stuff, too. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. The only

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one I don't think I could watch was The Best

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Little Whorehouse in Texas. Yeah. But that was

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all of that. There was... My first tape I ever

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got, I was like three or four, maybe fourth birthday.

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I was at the beach with my grandma and she gave

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me this Dolly Parton Greatest Hits cassette that

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I've had ever since. And that was like on constant

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repeat. But yes, musicals, that was something

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that I was interested in too. But there was also

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the part of me that was like very much from a

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young age, I want to be a country music singer.

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I want to do what Dolly Parton's doing. And there

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was something about, it almost seemed like something

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about like the stardom of it all to the fact

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that she had so many different, talents. She

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could do all that stuff. One of my favorite little

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stories or facts about Dolly is that she wrote

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Jolene and I Will Always Love You in the Afternoon.

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That just blows my mind. Two of the greatest

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songs ever written. I think I've heard you do

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a cover of Jolene. Yeah, I used to do it all

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the time. I've tried to give people a break from

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it but because it's been covered by a lot of

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folks but I try not to do it I used to have a

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rule that I wouldn't do any set without Dolly

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Parton song one Dolly Parton cover one in there

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yeah I always loved White Stripes cover oh so

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good that's one of my favorite just covers period

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He did such a good job. And everything he did

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with Loretta Lamb was so great. I know, that

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Van Leer Road album is, oh my gosh. I love that

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record so much. I'm going to listen to it on

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the way to Athens. That sounds like some good

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road music. So what are some of the early musicals

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that you really loved, aside from Dolly? I love

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musicals too, so I'm just curious. Mary Poppins

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was big for me. That's also very big into when

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my parents... I was obsessed with Mary Poppins

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and also women have always been my heroes. So

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like Julie Andrews as that role, the whole thing,

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there was something magical still about her.

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That performance, that movie is still pretty

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much perfect. But I was in the hunting woods

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with my dad and singing, doing all the accents

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and singing all the parts to It's a Jolly Holiday

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with Mary or something like that. And they put

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me in voice lessons right around that time. And

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my voice teacher was like, what do you want to

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learn? And I was like, Mary Poppins. That's it.

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So we got the songbook and we worked through

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every song in there. And I would go through the

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recital time and she'd be like, what do you want

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to do? And I'd be like, this song. And she'd

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be like, Sister Suffragette, which is the mom

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sings about women's rights and how dumb men are.

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And she was like... I don't think you want to

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do that. And I was like, oh, no, I do. I do.

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And I did it in full character with the accent.

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I'm sure people were like, what the hell is happening

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right now? But I was like. And you grew up in.

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Wakulla County. Yeah. Crawfordville, Florida.

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I feel like that's important to bring some context

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into this. A rural community. Can you just talk

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a little bit about Wakulla is where it is? I

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don't know that we've really brought it up much

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here before. Let me tell you a little bit about

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it. It is one of the most beautiful places that

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I've been to. It is just south of Leon County

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in the panhandle of Florida. It is a coastal

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county, and it is rural and definitely the south.

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The big city for us was Tallahassee. We call

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it coming to town back in the day. We used to

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have one stoplight. Now it's grown a lot. But

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Wakulla is a Native American word, and I forget.

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which for one of the translations is mysterious

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waters which I've always liked but also as a

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gay kid growing up in the south it was not always

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easy it is conservative it is it is a place that

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I ran like hell from and only probably just now

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have in the last 10 years come to come to terms

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with like how much I do love it and how much

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it's home and how beautiful it is but for me

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it was It didn't always feel like the most welcoming

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place. Once people started to notice that I was

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a little different, and way before I noticed

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that I was a little different, I just thought

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that I was just doing my thing. But, yeah, it

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was a place I didn't want to stay for a long

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part of my life. Just to give some context, I

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mean, it does have the nickname Will Kill Ya

00:11:13.220 --> 00:11:17.019
County. Proudly. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

00:11:17.870 --> 00:11:20.549
There are bumper stickers and hats that people

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wear. It's W -A -K -U -L -L -A. And then there's

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like this brand they had. I don't know who made

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it up, but it was Will Kill Ya all in one word

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that they used to wear, like a similar hat we

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see today. Probably some carpetbagger up in New

00:11:37.610 --> 00:11:44.549
Jersey. Made up a web store. But you feel like

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there's some truth to that. Yeah, no, yeah. No,

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I think as someone who grew up in Tallahassee

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and had all these little rural communities surrounding

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us, Bluntstown, Hossford, like, I mean, not just

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Wakulla, but like, oh, on the other side of the

00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:10.000
river kind of thing. I think there was a lot

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of that kind of, oh, out Highway 20, those kids

00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:18.299
are. So it's just. I get it. Like, it was, like,

00:12:18.379 --> 00:12:21.399
everybody there, like, toughness kind of wins.

00:12:21.539 --> 00:12:25.019
Oh, yeah. Toughness. I was just laughing about

00:12:25.019 --> 00:12:27.360
that because my dad used to tell me, I'd come

00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:29.820
home and somebody would pick on me. My last name

00:12:29.820 --> 00:12:34.820
is Gaby, and I was probably the most flamboyant

00:12:34.820 --> 00:12:36.200
when I was a kid because I didn't know anything

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I was doing was wrong, in quotes. But my dad

00:12:40.460 --> 00:12:43.179
would always be like, toughen up. Toughen up

00:12:43.179 --> 00:12:47.809
was always the thing. And also I feel like that's

00:12:47.809 --> 00:12:51.990
just, that's how it's, any kind of sign of sensitivity

00:12:51.990 --> 00:12:56.549
or emotion or anything that probably feels feminine,

00:12:56.590 --> 00:12:59.870
like a feminine trait is, that's anathema, right?

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I can relate to that. Especially as someone who

00:13:04.330 --> 00:13:08.690
grew up just like loving to be a performance

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kind of person. And I loved musicals. And my

00:13:13.690 --> 00:13:18.500
dad was a cop. and sure yeah so it was like this

00:13:18.500 --> 00:13:22.639
very much this kind of don't and i'm not even

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trying to get into the specificities of my father

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but just like having a cop as a father was like

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oh don't you want to blend in, don't do anything

00:13:34.600 --> 00:13:37.440
to stand out, don't dress this way or people

00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:39.980
are going to think you're this kind of way. And

00:13:39.980 --> 00:13:42.779
it made me just super aware of things that I

00:13:42.779 --> 00:13:44.700
wasn't even, I shouldn't have even been aware

00:13:44.700 --> 00:13:48.740
of. 100%. And their attempt to give us survival

00:13:48.740 --> 00:13:52.580
tools sometimes, they diminish us a lot. It's

00:13:52.580 --> 00:13:56.940
aware. I don't think there's a lot of bad intention

00:13:56.940 --> 00:14:01.179
behind a lot of it, but some of the tools, you're

00:14:01.179 --> 00:14:04.120
like, That might be where our fathers differ,

00:14:04.299 --> 00:14:08.600
but we can just leave it at that. Save that one

00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:12.840
for father therapy session. I tell a joke that

00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:17.600
having a cop for a dad does give me imposter

00:14:17.600 --> 00:14:20.039
syndrome as a leftist because I'm not sure if

00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:22.779
I hate cops or if I've just got daddy issues.

00:14:23.879 --> 00:14:27.490
That's great. that's a real i'm like shit how

00:14:27.490 --> 00:14:29.830
much do i really want to fight the power and

00:14:29.830 --> 00:14:31.690
how much do i really just want to stick it to

00:14:31.690 --> 00:14:35.250
him that is that i'm sure that resonates for

00:14:35.250 --> 00:14:39.529
a lot of people a lot of us for sure love you

00:14:39.529 --> 00:14:43.129
dad so what are some of the some of the bands

00:14:43.129 --> 00:14:46.370
you start listening to growing up in wacola county

00:14:46.370 --> 00:14:47.970
and how do you think like growing up somewhere

00:14:47.970 --> 00:14:50.710
like that affected It sounds like you were listening

00:14:50.710 --> 00:14:52.750
to a lot of country music at a young age and

00:14:52.750 --> 00:14:57.710
like top 40 country. That was it. Some older

00:14:57.710 --> 00:15:00.129
stuff, obviously, like Dolly, but like John Anderson

00:15:00.129 --> 00:15:04.870
is very much like that 90s, top 40. It was very

00:15:04.870 --> 00:15:10.789
much country music. That was like saturated in

00:15:10.789 --> 00:15:14.990
country music, church music, and the occasions

00:15:14.990 --> 00:15:18.009
that my older sister is five years older than

00:15:18.009 --> 00:15:21.570
me. She is the coolest, and she was the coolest

00:15:21.570 --> 00:15:24.669
when we were growing up. And so she would be

00:15:24.669 --> 00:15:26.970
the only person who would really bring in non

00:15:26.970 --> 00:15:29.970
-country music into the fold. She was the one

00:15:29.970 --> 00:15:33.909
who got me. We would get the good pop music,

00:15:33.950 --> 00:15:38.029
whatever it was. Madonna, from Madonna to Wham

00:15:38.029 --> 00:15:42.149
to Alanis Morissette, Whitney Houston, all the

00:15:42.149 --> 00:15:44.309
stuff that was non -country came from her. We

00:15:44.309 --> 00:15:46.250
got all of our credibility from my older sister.

00:15:46.629 --> 00:15:51.049
And my mom. Definitely brought in a lot of 50s,

00:15:51.049 --> 00:15:53.389
60s, and Motown stuff that she really loved.

00:15:53.509 --> 00:15:56.330
But the primary stuff, listening to the radio,

00:15:56.409 --> 00:16:01.169
was always probably 94 .9. Still, back when it

00:16:01.169 --> 00:16:04.590
was the Judds and Reba McEntire and Tanya Tucker

00:16:04.590 --> 00:16:07.090
and still George Jones we could get and play

00:16:07.090 --> 00:16:08.830
on the radio and a little bit of Dolly Parton

00:16:08.830 --> 00:16:12.289
towards the end of her airplay. Dina Carter.

00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:14.559
Yeah, but that was actually a little bit later

00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:18.580
for me. But that song, Strawberry Wine, is such

00:16:18.580 --> 00:16:21.240
a great song. Yeah, it's one of my karaoke go

00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:25.519
-tos. It's just a perfect song. I hated it. For

00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:28.840
some reason, I hated it growing up because I

00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:32.860
think it was constantly playing. But then recently,

00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:35.240
like in the last few years, I was listening to

00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:38.000
the song and I was like, that is a goddamn...

00:16:38.330 --> 00:16:40.009
Perfect song. Yeah. So well written. Yeah, I

00:16:40.009 --> 00:16:42.090
think I have very similar feelings about that

00:16:42.090 --> 00:16:44.389
song. Like, for a long time, I really, like,

00:16:44.450 --> 00:16:48.850
dismissed it or was sick of it or whatever. And

00:16:48.850 --> 00:16:52.149
then, yeah, the last five, ten years, I think

00:16:52.149 --> 00:16:54.830
I heard somebody just pull it out one night,

00:16:54.909 --> 00:17:00.490
and I was like, damn. It's a good one. It's a

00:17:00.490 --> 00:17:03.029
good one. So, yeah, mostly that country was coming,

00:17:03.090 --> 00:17:07.430
and there was a tape we had that was. Hot Country

00:17:07.430 --> 00:17:09.809
Request Volume 3 that was a family favorite,

00:17:09.890 --> 00:17:13.549
and it had Ricky Skaggs and Merle Haggard and

00:17:13.549 --> 00:17:16.549
people that no one knows, like Charlie McClain.

00:17:17.269 --> 00:17:20.609
And Highwaymen was on there. It was all the big

00:17:20.609 --> 00:17:25.630
singles from whatever 80s year it was. And we

00:17:25.630 --> 00:17:26.589
would listen to them. You got it from Columbia

00:17:26.589 --> 00:17:30.509
House. Yeah, definitely. I definitely have my

00:17:30.509 --> 00:17:32.410
run -ins with Columbia House. I'm in big trouble

00:17:32.410 --> 00:17:37.529
with that. But yeah, until... For the first kid,

00:17:37.990 --> 00:17:40.789
mostly, it was the country stuff. Radio country.

00:17:41.210 --> 00:17:44.509
Whatever was hot at the time. Let's talk about

00:17:44.509 --> 00:17:47.470
Columbia House. Maybe not specifically, but where

00:17:47.470 --> 00:17:50.849
were you getting... When you start buying record

00:17:50.849 --> 00:17:54.210
CDs, whatever it was, tapes maybe? Tapes, yeah.

00:17:55.349 --> 00:18:00.309
Where were you going to get them? I was... If

00:18:00.309 --> 00:18:01.990
it was a Dolly Parton tape that had come out,

00:18:02.069 --> 00:18:06.869
I could... Or a CD. I could almost always convince

00:18:06.869 --> 00:18:09.170
somebody to buy it for me when I didn't have

00:18:09.170 --> 00:18:12.190
my own money when I was, like, real young. But

00:18:12.190 --> 00:18:17.170
I wanted to get tapes, and I had seen the Columbia

00:18:17.170 --> 00:18:18.930
House stuff, and I was telling my mom, I was

00:18:18.930 --> 00:18:22.569
like, look, it's one penny for whatever the hell

00:18:22.569 --> 00:18:25.309
it is. I don't know, it's ridiculous. And she's

00:18:25.309 --> 00:18:26.930
like, it's a scam. You're going to have to pay

00:18:26.930 --> 00:18:28.950
whatever it is, blah, blah, blah. I'll buy you,

00:18:28.970 --> 00:18:33.769
like, one tape, you know, something. She had

00:18:33.769 --> 00:18:37.150
said something, and I basically just filled it

00:18:37.150 --> 00:18:38.710
out and did it anyway. Started looking at the

00:18:38.710 --> 00:18:40.329
stamps. I was like eight or nine years old. Yes,

00:18:40.329 --> 00:18:43.910
the stamps. And so I remember very well because

00:18:43.910 --> 00:18:47.029
I thought I could intercept this stuff. I was

00:18:47.029 --> 00:18:49.430
like, my mom is so smart, and so you can't get

00:18:49.430 --> 00:18:50.990
anything past her anyway. And I was like eight

00:18:50.990 --> 00:18:53.930
years old, maybe nine. And so I'd order my Columbia

00:18:53.930 --> 00:18:57.529
House stuff, and we were going to a baseball

00:18:57.529 --> 00:18:59.549
game that I did not want to play in because I

00:18:59.549 --> 00:19:03.230
did not want to play sports, but I had to. It

00:19:03.230 --> 00:19:05.869
was literally game. It was like a Saturday. And

00:19:05.869 --> 00:19:09.829
my mom stopped to get the mail and the box of

00:19:09.829 --> 00:19:11.990
tapes was in there. And she was like, what is

00:19:11.990 --> 00:19:16.769
this? And I was just like, ah. But anyway, she

00:19:16.769 --> 00:19:18.710
basically told me that I could only have them

00:19:18.710 --> 00:19:22.240
if I tried really hard. at the baseball game,

00:19:22.420 --> 00:19:25.460
and that was the only time I ever tried hard

00:19:25.460 --> 00:19:28.160
at a baseball game. Just that one game? I hated

00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:31.079
it so much. That's a good deal, though. It was

00:19:31.079 --> 00:19:34.119
a totally good deal. Also, what could she do

00:19:34.119 --> 00:19:38.480
at that point, I think. I probably did that twice.

00:19:38.900 --> 00:19:43.559
I probably did that twice. Because also right

00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:46.359
before that, I was at a baseball game, and I

00:19:46.359 --> 00:19:49.259
was playing as far away as they could put me.

00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:51.519
I was on a team of... really kids who all grew

00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:53.220
up to be like great high school athletes and

00:19:53.220 --> 00:19:56.000
stuff and i was like definitely just the worst

00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:58.180
on the team and i had no interest and i had no

00:19:58.180 --> 00:20:01.900
skill and i wanted to not be there and i so it

00:20:01.900 --> 00:20:04.960
was like a we were playing and they like this

00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:07.619
killing the other team hits like a rbl the bases

00:20:07.619 --> 00:20:10.140
are loaded he hits like a rbi home run type of

00:20:10.140 --> 00:20:14.240
vibe and i am in the feel with my glove under

00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:17.619
my arm. I'm making shadow puppets in the sun,

00:20:17.859 --> 00:20:21.059
and I can hear my dad screaming from far away,

00:20:21.380 --> 00:20:24.079
God damn it, Wally, pick up the goddamn ball!

00:20:24.220 --> 00:20:27.539
As the ball is rolling at me, all their team

00:20:27.539 --> 00:20:30.660
is running in and scoring. My coaches are going

00:20:30.660 --> 00:20:32.180
crazy. My teammates are just like, not again.

00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:37.380
And I then take the glove under my arm, pick

00:20:37.380 --> 00:20:40.980
up the ball, and throw it like this. She was

00:20:40.980 --> 00:20:43.769
probably like, anything to get. to get him through

00:20:43.769 --> 00:20:46.049
this season, to get him through this game, to

00:20:46.049 --> 00:20:50.670
not embarrass himself. Did you only play the

00:20:50.670 --> 00:20:52.609
one season of baseball? That was the last one.

00:20:52.750 --> 00:20:56.250
That ended because I begged and begged and begged

00:20:56.250 --> 00:20:57.710
and begged, but then the last thing I'll say

00:20:57.710 --> 00:21:00.730
about baseball is that one of the coaches on

00:21:00.730 --> 00:21:03.609
the team, it's actually a slight reference to

00:21:03.609 --> 00:21:05.950
this man in some of the music that I'm releasing,

00:21:06.089 --> 00:21:11.390
but we have a baseball practice, and I had been...

00:21:11.849 --> 00:21:14.690
so humiliated and just i was already like they

00:21:14.690 --> 00:21:16.470
were calling me wiley gay boy all this kind of

00:21:16.470 --> 00:21:18.190
stuff and everybody but whatever like i said

00:21:18.190 --> 00:21:19.670
everybody was good we were having a practice

00:21:19.670 --> 00:21:23.109
and this man i'll keep his name out of this but

00:21:23.109 --> 00:21:25.750
he was throwing pitches and we do a bat in practice

00:21:25.750 --> 00:21:27.430
it was my turn and i was just like okay i was

00:21:27.430 --> 00:21:28.950
telling myself my house like you got to do this

00:21:28.950 --> 00:21:30.589
keep your eye on the ball keep your eye on the

00:21:30.589 --> 00:21:31.890
ball keep your eye on the ball you can't miss

00:21:31.890 --> 00:21:34.849
this and he throws a ball and it like knocks

00:21:34.849 --> 00:21:37.430
into me a little bit like it's a grown -ass strong

00:21:37.430 --> 00:21:41.710
muscly man and throwing so hard and like at the

00:21:41.710 --> 00:21:44.769
kid who cannot play and so so the next time I

00:21:44.769 --> 00:21:47.329
was like and he taunted me a little bit and so

00:21:47.329 --> 00:21:50.170
anyway like the next time he throws it I'm like

00:21:50.170 --> 00:21:52.950
upset I'm trying to focus on the ball and it

00:21:52.950 --> 00:21:55.009
not he threw it right between my eyes knocked

00:21:55.009 --> 00:21:59.569
me out and Jesus Christ and the great thing is

00:21:59.569 --> 00:22:02.369
that aside from the goose egg that I ended up

00:22:02.369 --> 00:22:05.890
having on my face I was like that my mom just

00:22:05.890 --> 00:22:08.109
so happened And I told her that he was an asshole,

00:22:08.170 --> 00:22:11.769
and I told them both. But I got bullied a lot,

00:22:11.869 --> 00:22:13.809
so sometimes I think you're just like, okay,

00:22:13.849 --> 00:22:16.589
he needs to figure his way out in this situation.

00:22:17.170 --> 00:22:19.269
But she was there for it, and she just happened

00:22:19.269 --> 00:22:20.910
to get there early that day, and she saw what

00:22:20.910 --> 00:22:23.789
happened. And that was it. I never had to play

00:22:23.789 --> 00:22:26.589
another fucking game or another fucking practice,

00:22:26.630 --> 00:22:28.490
and I didn't have to go to school the next day

00:22:28.490 --> 00:22:31.369
because they probably were scared that somebody

00:22:31.369 --> 00:22:33.589
thought they abused me because my face looked

00:22:33.589 --> 00:22:38.210
so crazy. He's dead now. I'll drink to that.

00:22:38.349 --> 00:22:43.289
Cheers. Yeah. Oh, man. First of all, I'm sorry

00:22:43.289 --> 00:22:45.950
that happened to you. Thank you for telling that

00:22:45.950 --> 00:22:49.230
story here. I'm an overshare sometimes. Sorry,

00:22:49.309 --> 00:22:54.609
y 'all. That's what we're here for. But were

00:22:54.609 --> 00:22:59.390
you into sports at all? Did you not? Do you enjoy

00:22:59.390 --> 00:23:03.019
watching them? It's like just not. your thing

00:23:03.019 --> 00:23:05.779
are you competitive at all i do i yeah i've had

00:23:05.779 --> 00:23:08.900
definitely got a competitive streak i i loved

00:23:08.900 --> 00:23:11.240
i would get competitive when it came to like

00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:13.599
music and theater stuff like when i was if you

00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:16.440
wanted to go to district and state festival you

00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:18.880
better give me that straight superior yes exactly

00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:22.359
exactly that that was very competitive for me

00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:24.039
like all that kind of stuff i wanted to be all

00:23:24.039 --> 00:23:27.619
involved in that and academics i was trying to

00:23:27.619 --> 00:23:31.819
get i remember fighting like I was like one thousandth

00:23:31.819 --> 00:23:34.180
of a grade point from salutatorian when this

00:23:34.180 --> 00:23:36.200
guy and I were just so neck and I would just

00:23:36.200 --> 00:23:38.500
go to the guidance counselor at office and check

00:23:38.500 --> 00:23:41.640
I was annoyingly competitive and stuff that I

00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:44.660
wanted to do or I felt like I had how close to

00:23:44.660 --> 00:23:48.099
being valedictorian am I yeah that kind of thing

00:23:48.099 --> 00:23:52.460
so just stuff that does not matter now kids but

00:23:52.460 --> 00:23:55.799
but definitely like that I definitely when I

00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:58.269
was younger very much I think that's better stuff

00:23:58.269 --> 00:24:02.329
to focus on than A, than like being the strongest

00:24:02.329 --> 00:24:05.230
or the fastest for one. I do think that's, it's

00:24:05.230 --> 00:24:08.009
like better to focus on that stuff for the longevity

00:24:08.009 --> 00:24:12.029
of your life or whatever, but also like then

00:24:12.029 --> 00:24:15.289
drugs or getting into, there's a lot of things

00:24:15.289 --> 00:24:19.490
that getting competitive about theater and stuff.

00:24:19.789 --> 00:24:22.470
That's a really good way to channel that energy

00:24:22.470 --> 00:24:24.589
at that age. If you're going to be competitive

00:24:24.589 --> 00:24:29.369
for me. Yeah, I guess B also B, it meant something

00:24:29.369 --> 00:24:32.910
to me too. And I wanted to, maybe I wanted the

00:24:32.910 --> 00:24:34.410
wrong things maybe when I was younger and more

00:24:34.410 --> 00:24:38.829
feral, but it does make you better to, if you're

00:24:38.829 --> 00:24:40.190
playing sports, right? If you're going to play,

00:24:40.309 --> 00:24:43.509
if you're like talking about mediocrity, a mediocre,

00:24:43.730 --> 00:24:47.710
I don't know, tennis player. If you play against

00:24:47.710 --> 00:24:51.369
the Williams sisters versus playing against your

00:24:51.369 --> 00:24:54.119
like. other mediocre friend, you're going to

00:24:54.119 --> 00:24:55.859
lose a lot, but you're going to get better doing

00:24:55.859 --> 00:24:58.740
it. Like with music, it's like my friend Teresa,

00:24:58.940 --> 00:25:02.359
who I'm sure we'll talk about later, is one of

00:25:02.359 --> 00:25:05.059
the best singers I've ever heard and ever sung

00:25:05.059 --> 00:25:08.079
with. And we used to be, because I've played

00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:11.819
with her, because I've been on stages with her

00:25:11.819 --> 00:25:14.880
and sung with her and had to not compete with

00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:18.019
her, but match something or feel like I got to

00:25:18.019 --> 00:25:20.660
bring something to this. I am. exponentially

00:25:20.660 --> 00:25:23.980
better artist because of playing with folks who

00:25:23.980 --> 00:25:25.720
are better than me i can relate to that as a

00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:28.200
comedian too especially just like on being on

00:25:28.200 --> 00:25:32.779
a show um and everybody's on that night like

00:25:32.779 --> 00:25:35.279
on fire like every and you might not even be

00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:37.420
working with the funniest people in the world

00:25:37.420 --> 00:25:40.940
that night but everybody's feeling it and the

00:25:40.940 --> 00:25:43.039
crowd is good and you're like all right i gotta

00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:46.440
i gotta step up and i can't like fuck up the

00:25:46.440 --> 00:25:50.660
energy of this room right i gotta carry the torch

00:25:50.660 --> 00:25:55.079
to the next comedian which like i i don't feel

00:25:55.079 --> 00:25:58.579
like i've ever really been worried about personally

00:25:58.579 --> 00:26:02.279
but it does i think working with better people

00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:06.279
like it elevates you like you look at a time

00:26:06.279 --> 00:26:08.839
period of a band like the drive -by truckers

00:26:08.839 --> 00:26:11.279
like when jason was in the band and they're all

00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:14.539
i think and i think the relationship between

00:26:14.539 --> 00:26:18.670
patterson and mike cooley has always been all

00:26:18.670 --> 00:26:21.170
right, motherfucker, what you got? You know what

00:26:21.170 --> 00:26:24.190
I mean? Yeah, and it shows too, I feel like,

00:26:24.190 --> 00:26:27.309
in a good way, right? Yeah, in a very positive

00:26:27.309 --> 00:26:30.309
way. Hey, it's almost like they're having a conversation.

00:26:30.369 --> 00:26:34.269
Yeah, yeah. Which kind of brings me, I want to

00:26:34.269 --> 00:26:37.369
go back a little bit, or maybe not, I don't know,

00:26:37.430 --> 00:26:40.029
but at what point did you start playing instruments?

00:26:40.410 --> 00:26:42.829
Because you're performing, you're singing, you're

00:26:42.829 --> 00:26:44.869
into musicals, but when were you like, all right,

00:26:44.890 --> 00:26:47.210
I want to play an instrument? And then follow

00:26:47.210 --> 00:26:49.960
up to that, When did you start writing your own

00:26:49.960 --> 00:26:54.539
songs? When did I start? I think I first started

00:26:54.539 --> 00:26:58.119
playing piano. I had voice lessons from a teacher

00:26:58.119 --> 00:27:00.299
in Crawfordville, a lady by the name of Michelle

00:27:00.299 --> 00:27:03.859
Snow. And I think my parents and I were talking.

00:27:03.940 --> 00:27:07.740
I wanted to, I think that we thought we'd gone

00:27:07.740 --> 00:27:10.220
as far as we could go in the vocal department

00:27:10.220 --> 00:27:13.400
and wanted to go, which was not true. And so

00:27:13.400 --> 00:27:15.569
I wanted to learn something. And I thought piano

00:27:15.569 --> 00:27:18.069
would be beneficial, and I was into that. And

00:27:18.069 --> 00:27:21.910
so I really, I played piano first. And then,

00:27:21.930 --> 00:27:27.109
but also, I saw people, so I was probably like

00:27:27.109 --> 00:27:30.210
six or seven. And then I saw people, you don't

00:27:30.210 --> 00:27:33.869
see a lot of country artists playing piano. No,

00:27:33.910 --> 00:27:38.170
that's a good point. Yeah, and so I... And also,

00:27:38.230 --> 00:27:40.549
at that point, I wanted to do it all, but I wasn't

00:27:40.549 --> 00:27:43.130
really drawn to the guitar. Piano's always felt

00:27:43.130 --> 00:27:45.970
more natural to me and more achievable and attainable.

00:27:46.069 --> 00:27:48.730
Guitar still remains a little elusive to me,

00:27:48.829 --> 00:27:53.410
as anyone can tell by my performances. But I

00:27:53.410 --> 00:27:57.029
liked sports almost at first with the guitar.

00:27:57.789 --> 00:28:00.069
I wanted the shiny thing that Dolly Parton was

00:28:00.069 --> 00:28:02.690
playing or whoever was doing it, or I wanted

00:28:02.690 --> 00:28:06.460
to have the guitar so I could also sing. I could

00:28:06.460 --> 00:28:08.559
accompany myself singing, and that was, I loved

00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:10.440
to sing, I wanted to sing, I considered myself

00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:14.019
a singer, and I just wanted to learn enough of

00:28:14.019 --> 00:28:16.920
the guitar so I could accompany myself. And so

00:28:16.920 --> 00:28:19.640
it took a long time with the guitar because I

00:28:19.640 --> 00:28:22.240
don't think I gave it the respect quite that

00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:25.279
it deserved and didn't realize the importance

00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:28.700
of it until probably I started playing with people

00:28:28.700 --> 00:28:32.319
who were good and also with musicians who would

00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:37.220
tell me stuff like, Hey! If you tune your guitar,

00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:43.180
it'll all sound better and it'll make your life

00:28:43.180 --> 00:28:46.099
a little easier. We do appreciate that in the

00:28:46.099 --> 00:28:49.200
audience, typically. Yeah, I will say that. And

00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:55.599
I do too. But I was blind to that. I wish that

00:28:55.599 --> 00:28:57.779
I would have taken it more seriously because

00:28:57.779 --> 00:29:00.440
it's been in my guitar and piano, both of them

00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:03.500
in my life for... since i was a kid but you probably

00:29:03.500 --> 00:29:05.599
learned a lot of like musical theory and things

00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:08.039
like that you might not have learned had you

00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:10.500
pursued guitar at a young age by pursuing piano

00:29:10.500 --> 00:29:13.259
yeah and i still prefer if i could take if i

00:29:13.259 --> 00:29:15.160
could take a piano with me everywhere and if

00:29:15.160 --> 00:29:17.740
i could like like a real piano if i could just

00:29:17.740 --> 00:29:21.720
sit down at one everywhere i went i would probably

00:29:21.720 --> 00:29:24.920
play a lot more things on it yeah j ready wallston

00:29:24.920 --> 00:29:27.500
brought a digital piano and set it right where

00:29:27.500 --> 00:29:31.029
you're sitting right now and played in here It

00:29:31.029 --> 00:29:34.230
was wild. I love it. I love playing. I feel more

00:29:34.230 --> 00:29:37.430
at home there, but also I feel still like a novice

00:29:37.430 --> 00:29:40.309
there because I don't always have access to it.

00:29:41.190 --> 00:29:44.450
Whereas the guitar has been always reliable.

00:29:45.230 --> 00:29:49.769
And I've learned I can always be better at the

00:29:49.769 --> 00:29:53.190
guitar, but I've come a long way in a longer

00:29:53.190 --> 00:29:56.789
time. So how old were you when you stopped playing

00:29:56.789 --> 00:29:59.940
baseball? I was nine or nine years old. Cause

00:29:59.940 --> 00:30:01.799
I feel like that probably freed up a lot of time

00:30:01.799 --> 00:30:04.660
to do other things. And I was like, but I was

00:30:04.660 --> 00:30:09.299
also at that time, I was also writing and directing

00:30:09.299 --> 00:30:11.619
and producing the church musical for Christmas.

00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:15.339
Like I found, I was a very, I had more, if I

00:30:15.339 --> 00:30:17.500
could channel the ambition that I had between

00:30:17.500 --> 00:30:24.799
the ages of eight and 16, 17. Now I feel like.

00:30:25.719 --> 00:30:29.240
I really would be unstoppable because that little

00:30:29.240 --> 00:30:33.319
queen was like, I'm going to put on a play, and

00:30:33.319 --> 00:30:35.859
I'm going to write my own play, and it might

00:30:35.859 --> 00:30:37.660
be nonsense, and it might be terrible, but I

00:30:37.660 --> 00:30:39.779
somehow convinced the church to let me do it

00:30:39.779 --> 00:30:42.180
and the music teacher to play the piano for the

00:30:42.180 --> 00:30:47.539
kids to come to rehearsals, and we did it. There's

00:30:47.539 --> 00:30:49.079
a video somewhere, and it's absolute nonsense,

00:30:49.180 --> 00:30:53.339
but I was doing that. Taking music lessons, I

00:30:53.339 --> 00:30:57.519
was trying to, I also started to sing. And like

00:30:57.519 --> 00:30:59.619
towards the end of, right around that time, I

00:30:59.619 --> 00:31:02.880
would, outside the church, I took myself very

00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:05.500
seriously. I had to have these tracks that you'd

00:31:05.500 --> 00:31:07.640
order, these tapes that like were instrumental

00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:12.079
tracks for songs. And so then I would go to the

00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:15.420
Blue Crab Festival in Panacea or the Fourth of

00:31:15.420 --> 00:31:17.480
July on Stop Choppy. And eventually when I got

00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:20.880
a little more, a little better in my preteens.

00:31:21.289 --> 00:31:22.890
Springtime Tallahassee or something like that.

00:31:22.950 --> 00:31:24.809
But I would be like fully Garth Brooks out in

00:31:24.809 --> 00:31:26.990
my like too tight hat. And I was like this chubby

00:31:26.990 --> 00:31:31.289
little kid with wearing a Garth Brooks shirt.

00:31:31.430 --> 00:31:33.089
And I would get out there and I'd sing to the

00:31:33.089 --> 00:31:35.289
tracks and do that kind of stuff. So I was like.

00:31:35.509 --> 00:31:37.369
What were your favorite like Garth Brooks songs

00:31:37.369 --> 00:31:40.109
to sing? The River was one that I sang a lot.

00:31:40.950 --> 00:31:46.210
And it was also tough because my voice, especially

00:31:46.210 --> 00:31:49.109
then before puberty hit, was like super high.

00:31:51.339 --> 00:31:55.140
men's songs was hard to do. So I'd have to almost

00:31:55.140 --> 00:31:59.000
always, it had to be like a special key or somebody

00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:01.759
that sang really low that I could go octave above

00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:04.359
them. Yeah. Or I'd have to sing like a lady's

00:32:04.359 --> 00:32:07.319
song and change the words and stuff like that.

00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:09.119
But the river, I managed to get the river. That

00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:13.460
was one of my regulars. At what point do you

00:32:13.460 --> 00:32:16.000
start writing your own? Oh. I'll just say that

00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:18.819
the truth is I think I tried to write something

00:32:18.819 --> 00:32:24.339
probably around 12 or 13. And all I know is that

00:32:24.339 --> 00:32:27.599
it was terrible. Do you think that's what kind

00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:32.339
of stopped you from pursuing this stuff? Or like

00:32:32.339 --> 00:32:35.539
writing more and more? Oh, yeah. I think for

00:32:35.539 --> 00:32:38.019
sure, especially as a younger, as a young kid,

00:32:38.119 --> 00:32:40.859
the things that came easy to me, the things that

00:32:40.859 --> 00:32:42.240
I wanted to do, the things that I was good at.

00:32:42.589 --> 00:32:45.490
first and good at quickly and that also other

00:32:45.490 --> 00:32:48.130
boxes so there were and i could do that's why

00:32:48.130 --> 00:32:52.750
i could play piano well enough i liked that i

00:32:52.750 --> 00:32:55.769
i music theory made sense academics were made

00:32:55.769 --> 00:32:58.029
sense i love to read i love books and shit like

00:32:58.029 --> 00:33:01.849
that and but the right so something was hard

00:33:01.849 --> 00:33:04.130
about the writing and something was like didn't

00:33:04.130 --> 00:33:07.240
kind of didn't just flow naturally and or I remember

00:33:07.240 --> 00:33:09.400
one time trying to like put music to something

00:33:09.400 --> 00:33:11.480
my friend had written when maybe I was like 13

00:33:11.480 --> 00:33:14.940
or whatever. And it was like, God awful. But

00:33:14.940 --> 00:33:18.220
I wrote two songs. I don't really admit to this.

00:33:18.279 --> 00:33:22.099
I actually tell a lie on stage. But I wrote two

00:33:22.099 --> 00:33:25.920
songs when I was, I guess, 19. Around that time.

00:33:25.940 --> 00:33:28.920
Freshman at FSU, sophomore at FSU, something

00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:31.839
like that. And one is this really sappy love

00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:35.960
song that I wrote to my first boyfriend. It would

00:33:35.960 --> 00:33:39.380
be sweet if it didn't sound creepy now in its

00:33:39.380 --> 00:33:42.799
earnest sincerity. And then there's... And it

00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:44.740
was a really scathing song that I wrote. I had

00:33:44.740 --> 00:33:48.779
just come out, and it was not a good time between

00:33:48.779 --> 00:33:53.200
me and my parents for a spell. Things are great

00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:56.380
now, but... And so... But I had written this

00:33:56.380 --> 00:34:01.759
angry... My angry... My friends call it my angry

00:34:01.759 --> 00:34:05.299
lesbian daddy song. But those... But that was

00:34:05.299 --> 00:34:07.920
pretty much it. I felt like those songs, I didn't

00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:11.000
dabble too much with it until a few years later.

00:34:11.739 --> 00:34:14.239
But you're performing still, and you're performing

00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:16.000
other people's songs. You're in musicals all

00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:18.400
through high school at this point. Yeah, I turned

00:34:18.400 --> 00:34:23.659
away from a lot of the... So around when I got

00:34:23.659 --> 00:34:26.480
into high school, I had a really great music

00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:28.719
teacher and a really great theater teacher, and

00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:35.500
I loved them so much. My music teacher, choral

00:34:35.500 --> 00:34:40.019
teacher, Alicia Walker, amazing woman. She also,

00:34:40.119 --> 00:34:43.539
she would make fun of, she was trying to get

00:34:43.539 --> 00:34:45.719
me to sing classical music and sing well and

00:34:45.719 --> 00:34:50.059
learn and sing well in the choir. And I have

00:34:50.059 --> 00:34:51.619
been so used to being like, I'm going to get

00:34:51.619 --> 00:34:53.840
up there and belt my songs and do my thing. And

00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:57.739
she really helped me. see this other side but

00:34:57.739 --> 00:34:59.960
I as I often do especially at that point I was

00:34:59.960 --> 00:35:03.260
like oh this is serious music so I'm actually

00:35:03.260 --> 00:35:05.039
not interested in country music anymore because

00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:09.079
these people I like just had this big backlash

00:35:09.079 --> 00:35:11.940
at like around 14 where I was just like I was

00:35:11.940 --> 00:35:15.780
like this is terrible singing and this is blah

00:35:15.780 --> 00:35:20.219
blah blah I just went like this total It's not

00:35:20.219 --> 00:35:23.920
hard to do. Yeah, sure. Especially like top 40

00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:26.400
country. To be fair, it was a time when it was,

00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:30.340
to be fair, it was post Garth and Shania, which

00:35:30.340 --> 00:35:33.820
felt very exciting at the time. But the fallout

00:35:33.820 --> 00:35:36.820
from that is absolute garbage. Which is like

00:35:36.820 --> 00:35:40.460
where I, like, so I grew up where like when I'm

00:35:40.460 --> 00:35:44.039
like eight, nine, it's still, I think I'm still

00:35:44.039 --> 00:35:46.389
getting like the good stuff. Yeah. And then by

00:35:46.389 --> 00:35:48.570
the time, like, the late 90s roll around. Late

00:35:48.570 --> 00:35:52.849
90s were the crash. Yeah. It's all just pop with

00:35:52.849 --> 00:35:55.949
a southern accent at that point. And no feeling

00:35:55.949 --> 00:35:59.289
to a lot of it. There was still some good stuff

00:35:59.289 --> 00:36:00.710
coming through here and there. But even then,

00:36:00.829 --> 00:36:03.010
even at that point, I was like, I thought I was

00:36:03.010 --> 00:36:05.829
too good for any of it at that point. I was just

00:36:05.829 --> 00:36:08.429
like, I'm going to listen to music theater. And

00:36:08.429 --> 00:36:10.889
I'm going to listen to classical music. And I'm

00:36:10.889 --> 00:36:14.679
going to go. And honestly, I feel like for, like,

00:36:14.719 --> 00:36:16.980
most of high school, that was my music theater

00:36:16.980 --> 00:36:21.340
queen, like, era. And it was like, I was discovering,

00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:25.579
like, Patti LuPone. And I was, like, leaning

00:36:25.579 --> 00:36:29.800
into that very unabashedly. There was, maybe

00:36:29.800 --> 00:36:32.480
I liked a, maybe an 80s soundtrack had come out

00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:34.659
and I liked some of those bops and stuff like

00:36:34.659 --> 00:36:37.679
that or whatever. But you're mostly just into,

00:36:37.699 --> 00:36:40.139
like, show tunes and classical music. And primarily.

00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:43.559
A lot of people, and not even like necessarily

00:36:43.559 --> 00:36:45.420
what some people would call the greatest stuff.

00:36:45.579 --> 00:36:48.059
I was like, I was living for Andrew Lloyd Webber

00:36:48.059 --> 00:36:50.539
and living for Phantom of the Opera and Cats

00:36:50.539 --> 00:36:53.760
and all that shit. I'm definitely a Sondheim

00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:57.579
guy. Into the Woods was my first big musical

00:36:57.579 --> 00:36:59.639
I saw at FSU and they did it and it was one of

00:36:59.639 --> 00:37:00.780
the best shit things I've ever seen in my life.

00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:04.579
My choral teacher in middle school, I think she

00:37:04.579 --> 00:37:07.559
was just having a bad day. It was like, y 'all

00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:09.980
are going to watch a movie today. Did she play

00:37:09.980 --> 00:37:11.380
the Bernadette Peters PBS version of Into the

00:37:11.380 --> 00:37:14.380
Woods? She played the Bernadette Peters PBS version

00:37:14.380 --> 00:37:19.480
of Into the Woods. And God damn, like I've. It

00:37:19.480 --> 00:37:22.019
was a life changing moment. It really, I still

00:37:22.019 --> 00:37:26.059
remember sitting in that room probably because

00:37:26.059 --> 00:37:29.780
of that movie more than any other reason. I loved

00:37:29.780 --> 00:37:33.260
that movie. And I like to the point where I went

00:37:33.260 --> 00:37:36.320
to church with her and that was how like I, I

00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:39.699
was also like a teacher's pet. same in middle

00:37:39.699 --> 00:37:42.159
school and i would she let me borrow it like

00:37:42.159 --> 00:37:44.099
she would like after after she showed in the

00:37:44.099 --> 00:37:48.900
class she was like and my mom was involved but

00:37:48.900 --> 00:37:51.239
it was like making sure it was okay with her

00:37:51.239 --> 00:37:53.480
and like making sure it got back to my teacher

00:37:53.480 --> 00:37:56.219
safely and everything but i love that yeah no

00:37:56.219 --> 00:37:58.320
she let me borrow it and i watched that shit

00:37:58.320 --> 00:38:01.000
for i think she let me borrow it like for a summer

00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:03.519
oh yeah or maybe a spring break or something

00:38:03.519 --> 00:38:05.420
and i just like i think that was so magical to

00:38:05.420 --> 00:38:09.300
have that as a kid The things that I did have

00:38:09.300 --> 00:38:10.920
as a kid that were so magical, just thinking

00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:14.639
about stuff like that, or unrelated, but maybe

00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:18.119
not, like Miyazaki. I wish I had discovered Miyazaki

00:38:18.119 --> 00:38:21.820
at seven, at least by seven or something. I saw

00:38:21.820 --> 00:38:25.699
Princess Mononoke in the theaters at 13. Oh,

00:38:25.699 --> 00:38:29.599
my. The first dub they ever did for an American

00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:31.820
audience. I just had some cool older friends.

00:38:31.980 --> 00:38:35.400
We had Miracle 5. Yes, Miracle 5. And I went

00:38:35.400 --> 00:38:37.929
to see Princess. That was another one of those

00:38:37.929 --> 00:38:39.710
life -changing moments for me. Yeah, I can't

00:38:39.710 --> 00:38:41.289
imagine what that would have been, like 13 years

00:38:41.289 --> 00:38:43.889
old. It fucking blew my mind. I love that that

00:38:43.889 --> 00:38:47.070
happened. Thank you, Miracle 5, and thank you,

00:38:47.070 --> 00:38:49.550
older friends. Yeah. The cool kids in Tallahassee.

00:38:49.670 --> 00:38:52.590
Yeah, there were, like, I really did have a good

00:38:52.590 --> 00:38:56.369
group of, I didn't get along or fit in with anybody

00:38:56.369 --> 00:38:59.309
in school, but I had a good group of friends

00:38:59.309 --> 00:39:03.010
that were older than me and usually in bands

00:39:03.010 --> 00:39:06.849
or whatever. Like Social Burn and No Address.

00:39:06.849 --> 00:39:09.809
I hung out with all those guys, and they were

00:39:09.809 --> 00:39:13.030
taking me on the road. I had Justin Long here

00:39:13.030 --> 00:39:16.710
a few weeks ago from No Address, and he produced

00:39:16.710 --> 00:39:20.289
a bunch of local records back in the day. Anyway,

00:39:20.590 --> 00:39:24.449
we went down a... So what were some of... Sondheim,

00:39:24.449 --> 00:39:26.409
Weber, what were some of the other musicals that

00:39:26.409 --> 00:39:29.650
you were really... What did I love? And what

00:39:29.650 --> 00:39:33.789
did you consider high art? Because you're like,

00:39:33.869 --> 00:39:37.809
I was... Give me some example. It's weird because

00:39:37.809 --> 00:39:39.789
I'm going to contradict myself at every turn,

00:39:39.889 --> 00:39:42.070
I'm sure, when it comes to this. And it started

00:39:42.070 --> 00:39:44.429
with... In high school, too. Right, I was an

00:39:44.429 --> 00:39:46.730
asshole. I was a sweet asshole, but we were all

00:39:46.730 --> 00:39:48.210
assholes at that age. Oh, I just said you were

00:39:48.210 --> 00:39:49.949
in high school. I didn't call you an asshole.

00:39:49.949 --> 00:39:53.090
No, I heard you say high school. I called myself

00:39:53.090 --> 00:39:55.909
an asshole fully, but thank you. And you're welcome

00:39:55.909 --> 00:39:59.429
to, but it won't hurt my feelings. We haven't

00:39:59.429 --> 00:40:02.409
justified it yet, so we'll get there. Just wait.

00:40:03.159 --> 00:40:05.099
Jesus Christ Superstar was one of the first big

00:40:05.099 --> 00:40:09.340
ones that I loved. But also, I remember talking

00:40:09.340 --> 00:40:10.900
to my chorus teacher about that and she would

00:40:10.900 --> 00:40:13.000
be like, oh my God, the singing is so terrible.

00:40:13.420 --> 00:40:17.219
And then she had problems with whatever. But

00:40:17.219 --> 00:40:21.039
I really liked... So your teacher was pretentious

00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:24.239
too. She was definitely... And I don't mean that

00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:26.119
in a bad way, like I'm pretentious about music.

00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:30.219
At that time, I would say yes. She was... At

00:40:30.219 --> 00:40:32.960
first, we used to butt heads all the time. And

00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:37.739
then she broke me in a good way. But she would

00:40:37.739 --> 00:40:41.440
be just like, she'd say something about my singing

00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:43.860
in a lesson or whatever. She's always supportive

00:40:43.860 --> 00:40:46.019
of me and always lovely. She was never cruel.

00:40:46.159 --> 00:40:48.039
But she would say stuff like, you are what you

00:40:48.039 --> 00:40:49.480
listen to. It sounds like you've been listening

00:40:49.480 --> 00:40:52.179
to a lot of, I don't know what she said, but

00:40:52.179 --> 00:40:55.039
I'm just throwing Dolly Parton out there. And

00:40:55.039 --> 00:40:58.139
I'm just like, and so I'm just like. And I think

00:40:58.139 --> 00:41:00.199
you are what you listen to. You need to listen

00:41:00.199 --> 00:41:03.199
to great singers. You need to listen to this

00:41:03.199 --> 00:41:08.480
stuff, right? But I was really into anybody who

00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:11.239
could do extraordinary things with their voices.

00:41:11.900 --> 00:41:16.360
And primarily for me, what that means is a woman

00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:20.420
doing something with her voice. And specifically,

00:41:20.699 --> 00:41:23.340
these references, if anybody's listening who's

00:41:23.340 --> 00:41:24.880
a music theater nerd, they're going to roll their

00:41:24.880 --> 00:41:29.070
eyes or laugh. Sarah Brightman, who is a wacky,

00:41:29.070 --> 00:41:32.130
like a crazy soprano who was married to Angela

00:41:32.130 --> 00:41:34.010
Woodweber, who the role of Christine was written

00:41:34.010 --> 00:41:37.409
for her. And she's a very strange kind of creature,

00:41:37.570 --> 00:41:40.570
but she like had this coloratura like voice and

00:41:40.570 --> 00:41:42.469
she could go up into the stratosphere. And so

00:41:42.469 --> 00:41:44.610
to me, like it was, and she had a strange, like

00:41:44.610 --> 00:41:47.329
a, like a little bit of an overbite and her mouth

00:41:47.329 --> 00:41:49.860
like was different. And that was. I felt really

00:41:49.860 --> 00:41:51.940
beautiful about her, but also it would affect

00:41:51.940 --> 00:41:54.380
the way she sang, and she has something unique

00:41:54.380 --> 00:41:56.420
about her voice. Patti LuPone, I thought, was

00:41:56.420 --> 00:41:57.860
like the greatest thing in the world. I was like,

00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:00.159
I'd listen to the Evita soundtrack, and I'd listen

00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:03.900
to primarily the original Sunset Boulevard, which

00:42:03.900 --> 00:42:05.400
a lot of people don't consider one of the greatest

00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:07.579
musicals until maybe recently, because it's come

00:42:07.579 --> 00:42:12.199
back. But I, as a 15 -year -old, I actually checked

00:42:12.199 --> 00:42:17.090
out the double CD from... the Leon County Public

00:42:17.090 --> 00:42:19.250
Library, because I was like, I can't go to Wakulla

00:42:19.250 --> 00:42:22.070
Public Library because they have nothing. Even

00:42:22.070 --> 00:42:23.889
though as a kid, that's like where I grew up.

00:42:23.909 --> 00:42:25.550
But like when I got older, I was like, we need

00:42:25.550 --> 00:42:27.550
to go. I can check out all these musicals, all

00:42:27.550 --> 00:42:30.989
these classical music things. And so I had found

00:42:30.989 --> 00:42:34.570
this recording of it. And that was like, I would

00:42:34.570 --> 00:42:36.469
just listen to her. Like she does this thing

00:42:36.469 --> 00:42:40.030
she belts that I would just repeat on constantly,

00:42:40.170 --> 00:42:42.869
like listening to it just because it just amazed

00:42:42.869 --> 00:42:45.369
me and I couldn't do it. And it just, it was.

00:42:45.610 --> 00:42:47.750
just every time would just leave me with goosebumps.

00:42:48.409 --> 00:42:51.590
That kind of stuff was what I really loved. Anything

00:42:51.590 --> 00:42:54.889
that would just felt like big emotion, people

00:42:54.889 --> 00:42:58.389
like hollering in a way that also was like beautiful,

00:42:58.570 --> 00:43:01.849
that was like on pitch or that had just amazing

00:43:01.849 --> 00:43:06.489
kind of power. Yeah. Were you, were you into

00:43:06.489 --> 00:43:09.670
like comedic roles at all or? Oh yeah. Is that

00:43:09.670 --> 00:43:11.929
something that interested you? I took myself

00:43:11.929 --> 00:43:14.280
a little, when I first started theater, I was,

00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:18.760
comedy was where I should have been and all of

00:43:18.760 --> 00:43:21.780
that. And I wanted to be like, I was taking myself

00:43:21.780 --> 00:43:23.460
very seriously. I remember a couple of times

00:43:23.460 --> 00:43:27.460
I would audition for a play and I frequent, I

00:43:27.460 --> 00:43:31.260
always got a great role and I was never shortchanged

00:43:31.260 --> 00:43:34.989
at all. If not, probably the opposite. I could

00:43:34.989 --> 00:43:38.010
tell sometimes that looking back, right, I would

00:43:38.010 --> 00:43:39.730
like audition for, maybe we'd have a night of

00:43:39.730 --> 00:43:41.650
one acts and like this one act was the competition

00:43:41.650 --> 00:43:44.449
piece and it was like some serious drama. And

00:43:44.449 --> 00:43:46.909
I would be like auditioning for this leading

00:43:46.909 --> 00:43:51.010
role part when I was like, honey, it was not

00:43:51.010 --> 00:43:52.590
happening. It would have been like, you would

00:43:52.590 --> 00:43:56.050
have had to been like in the dark completely

00:43:56.050 --> 00:44:00.130
on drugs to make it believable. But I would just

00:44:00.130 --> 00:44:01.690
be like, oh, why didn't I get this part? Instead

00:44:01.690 --> 00:44:04.989
of sinking my teeth into, drama teacher would

00:44:04.989 --> 00:44:07.710
cast me and if it was a comedy and that was the

00:44:07.710 --> 00:44:09.469
only play available then that was definitely

00:44:09.469 --> 00:44:11.469
I would lean into that and have a great time

00:44:11.469 --> 00:44:13.809
but if there was something like that I felt was

00:44:13.809 --> 00:44:17.769
like I didn't I didn't realize that comedy is

00:44:17.769 --> 00:44:20.570
just as important and just as different skill

00:44:20.570 --> 00:44:25.510
set and requires a lot of the comedy is more

00:44:25.510 --> 00:44:29.070
intellectual in some ways I think not touting

00:44:29.070 --> 00:44:30.690
it as a better thing, but I feel like people

00:44:30.690 --> 00:44:32.050
have said that. No, you can tout it as better.

00:44:33.150 --> 00:44:36.190
I've always just felt like there are people who

00:44:36.190 --> 00:44:38.329
have said that and I'm going to sound dumb, but

00:44:38.329 --> 00:44:42.710
there's something about the timing and the stuff

00:44:42.710 --> 00:44:45.730
that there's some mind stuff that goes involved

00:44:45.730 --> 00:44:48.130
when you're doing a comic play or a piece of

00:44:48.130 --> 00:44:52.369
work. Yeah, yeah. I think that the thing about

00:44:52.369 --> 00:44:58.289
that when it's done really is that it's not done

00:44:58.289 --> 00:45:01.489
by it's not calculated like it's natural like

00:45:01.489 --> 00:45:05.030
it's like the natural ability to have these things

00:45:05.030 --> 00:45:08.610
that you're talking about that maybe could be

00:45:08.610 --> 00:45:11.750
and has to be especially like in a Broadway show

00:45:11.750 --> 00:45:14.389
or a musical or a live show that you're doing

00:45:14.389 --> 00:45:17.150
over and over in front of a live audience has

00:45:17.150 --> 00:45:21.269
to be repeatable yeah in this way that you know

00:45:21.269 --> 00:45:24.849
but I think it started like when it's done really

00:45:24.849 --> 00:45:27.409
well like at the beginning and you're trying

00:45:27.409 --> 00:45:29.989
to repeat the thing that was done naturally the

00:45:29.989 --> 00:45:33.829
first time. And I don't know. I don't like, I

00:45:33.829 --> 00:45:36.309
don't know what that calculation is. I just like,

00:45:36.429 --> 00:45:39.429
but I know what you're talking about. There's,

00:45:39.429 --> 00:45:42.289
there is something about like understanding.

00:45:43.690 --> 00:45:46.150
Jay Roddy Walston was on the podcast and he's,

00:45:46.150 --> 00:45:48.590
he was talking about how like he can have funny

00:45:48.590 --> 00:45:52.269
banter and he can have, he can say things on

00:45:52.269 --> 00:45:54.349
stage, like between songs and it'll make people

00:45:54.349 --> 00:45:57.719
laugh. But the idea to him of going on stage

00:45:57.719 --> 00:46:02.139
and knowing what's funny is the scariest thing

00:46:02.139 --> 00:46:04.599
in the world to him, is what he said. And I think

00:46:04.599 --> 00:46:11.659
that if you're not a singer, going up and singing

00:46:11.659 --> 00:46:14.460
a song and getting the timing and the notes,

00:46:14.539 --> 00:46:17.500
that's the scariest thing in the world. 100%.

00:46:17.500 --> 00:46:19.940
It's almost like the opposite of the grass is

00:46:19.940 --> 00:46:25.340
always greener. There is some natural ability,

00:46:25.460 --> 00:46:29.780
I think, to comedy and to having... Now, a lot

00:46:29.780 --> 00:46:32.360
of it might be based on coping mechanisms and

00:46:32.360 --> 00:46:37.519
trauma. But I think there's more of an innate

00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:40.179
when it comes to a singing voice or something

00:46:40.179 --> 00:46:43.699
like that. It can be trained, can be refined,

00:46:43.860 --> 00:46:47.820
but some people just... You can't make them funny.

00:46:48.019 --> 00:46:50.320
Or you can't make them sing good, but you can

00:46:50.320 --> 00:46:54.190
make somebody funny by... telling them okay this

00:46:54.190 --> 00:46:56.989
is when you say this is when you do if they're

00:46:56.989 --> 00:47:00.909
an actor you can most usually i don't know what

00:47:00.909 --> 00:47:03.449
goes into that is what i'm getting i don't know

00:47:03.449 --> 00:47:07.150
what goes into making somebody else making a

00:47:07.150 --> 00:47:09.610
role funny which is what i think you're yeah

00:47:09.610 --> 00:47:11.650
because i could never do what i have no idea

00:47:11.650 --> 00:47:14.989
what that even means like i i don't know how

00:47:14.989 --> 00:47:19.090
to i'm like i'm not saying i couldn't write like

00:47:19.090 --> 00:47:21.860
a comedy scene sure But I have no idea how to

00:47:21.860 --> 00:47:24.820
tell someone how to write a comedy scene. 100%.

00:47:24.820 --> 00:47:28.760
Same for me. And I could never do. You do comedy

00:47:28.760 --> 00:47:33.860
in stand -up form. So that is something that

00:47:33.860 --> 00:47:37.519
I feel is super elusive to me. I feel like I

00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:40.440
can make some jokes. I feel like I can sometimes

00:47:40.440 --> 00:47:43.480
I got some zingers and sometimes I can be charming

00:47:43.480 --> 00:47:46.420
and this and that and a third. But to be able

00:47:46.420 --> 00:47:54.250
to do a set of that. And to do it, to execute

00:47:54.250 --> 00:47:57.230
and to do all the things you've got to do, like,

00:47:57.289 --> 00:48:01.409
I could play for three hours and it may fuck

00:48:01.409 --> 00:48:03.269
up a lot of it. It may not sound incredible,

00:48:03.510 --> 00:48:06.809
but I can do that. And, like, the idea of having

00:48:06.809 --> 00:48:12.230
to get up on stage for 25, 45, hour and a half

00:48:12.230 --> 00:48:17.429
for some people and do comedy is, feels like

00:48:17.429 --> 00:48:20.670
the scariest thing I could imagine. Is it something

00:48:20.670 --> 00:48:25.170
that's appealing to you? I like telling stories,

00:48:25.389 --> 00:48:28.849
and I love being in community and conversation

00:48:28.849 --> 00:48:31.250
with an audience, and I love that energy exchange.

00:48:31.650 --> 00:48:34.730
I love laughing. The reason I ask is I think

00:48:34.730 --> 00:48:41.889
a lot of singers and songwriters wish a little

00:48:41.889 --> 00:48:44.090
bit that they could be stand -up comics, but

00:48:44.090 --> 00:48:46.789
I think the same is true for a lot of comedians,

00:48:46.789 --> 00:48:51.050
too. I like I tell this thing I've said a lot

00:48:51.050 --> 00:48:53.849
on here is pretty much all comedians are just

00:48:53.849 --> 00:48:57.369
failed rock stars. We all just we all wanted

00:48:57.369 --> 00:48:59.429
to be rock stars. And like in one way or another,

00:48:59.590 --> 00:49:03.690
we figured out that we were not. I thought of

00:49:03.690 --> 00:49:05.550
it. I thought many times I thought to myself

00:49:05.550 --> 00:49:08.409
about there was a time when I wanted to do that.

00:49:08.489 --> 00:49:10.750
Like comedy was I wanted to do like sketch comedy

00:49:10.750 --> 00:49:16.010
stuff. I went to theater school at FSU and got

00:49:16.010 --> 00:49:18.420
into. that a little bit and thought that's what

00:49:18.420 --> 00:49:21.119
I wanted. Did a little class at Second City in

00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:26.659
Chicago and that part seemed fun and very exciting.

00:49:26.940 --> 00:49:30.659
I did that as just a hobby for years and years.

00:49:30.699 --> 00:49:33.739
It was like a really good thing to do as a person.

00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:36.300
The stuff that they teach you in improv, it feels...

00:49:36.300 --> 00:49:40.000
Do you know Kim McShane? I know this. She's a

00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:43.639
local, but she used to teach improv classes,

00:49:43.699 --> 00:49:46.730
still does from time to time, but... Her whole

00:49:46.730 --> 00:49:50.329
thing was like, yeah, improv is really just a

00:49:50.329 --> 00:49:53.369
great life skill. Yes, and. I think about yes,

00:49:53.409 --> 00:49:56.969
and all the time. Because a lot of the times

00:49:56.969 --> 00:49:59.110
you don't really have a choice to the yes. Yeah.

00:49:59.510 --> 00:50:03.409
Also, it definitely makes it more like it softens

00:50:03.409 --> 00:50:05.110
the blow when it's something that you don't want

00:50:05.110 --> 00:50:09.789
to yes. Obviously, there are things that we're

00:50:09.789 --> 00:50:13.010
not talking about everything, but in terms of

00:50:13.010 --> 00:50:16.239
for the most part. Boundaries are important.

00:50:17.460 --> 00:50:19.659
Boundaries are very important and consent and

00:50:19.659 --> 00:50:23.980
all that stuff. But yes, and it feels very helpful.

00:50:24.139 --> 00:50:28.719
And especially in performance, I think it translates

00:50:28.719 --> 00:50:32.559
to life, obviously, but also just it's even like

00:50:32.559 --> 00:50:34.639
when you're playing a show and everyone tells

00:50:34.639 --> 00:50:37.019
you this. Lots of people have lots of things

00:50:37.019 --> 00:50:39.199
to tell you as you're putting yourself on stage

00:50:39.199 --> 00:50:43.429
and learning how to do it. One good piece of

00:50:43.429 --> 00:50:46.449
advice that people give you is don't let them

00:50:46.449 --> 00:50:50.769
know that you're failing or roll with it or don't.

00:50:50.769 --> 00:50:53.130
It's like whatever. Maybe that's not the exact

00:50:53.130 --> 00:50:55.710
best example, but to like to take something that

00:50:55.710 --> 00:50:58.550
feels like a fuck up or a thing. And instead

00:50:58.550 --> 00:51:00.829
of feeling any negativity towards it or shame

00:51:00.829 --> 00:51:03.989
about it or whatever, take that and roll with

00:51:03.989 --> 00:51:06.929
it. So maybe acknowledging it. Maybe it's. I

00:51:06.929 --> 00:51:09.349
think so. I'm thinking about something my chorus

00:51:09.349 --> 00:51:11.610
teacher that taught me there showed me into the

00:51:11.610 --> 00:51:15.099
woods. taught us when we would go to these like

00:51:15.099 --> 00:51:18.980
district festivals and stuff like that one thing

00:51:18.980 --> 00:51:22.719
she would stress like if you make a mistake ignore

00:51:22.719 --> 00:51:26.480
it yeah don't acknowledge it because if you acknowledge

00:51:26.480 --> 00:51:28.579
it then they're gonna the judges are gonna notice

00:51:28.579 --> 00:51:32.539
if you don't if you act like everything's that

00:51:32.539 --> 00:51:35.880
was great they might they're at least they're

00:51:35.880 --> 00:51:39.769
at least less likely to notice yeah like if you

00:51:39.769 --> 00:51:42.070
notice then if you act like you notice then they're

00:51:42.070 --> 00:51:45.550
definitely going to notice and people don't like

00:51:45.550 --> 00:51:48.590
and people also want to see for the most part

00:51:48.590 --> 00:51:51.730
especially in in these settings i feel like people

00:51:51.730 --> 00:51:55.409
want to see people succeed and regardless no

00:51:55.409 --> 00:51:59.010
one wants to see you crash and burn but i think

00:51:59.010 --> 00:52:01.949
that just theater was the same way If someone

00:52:01.949 --> 00:52:04.050
drops a line, someone skips a page, whatever

00:52:04.050 --> 00:52:06.090
it is, if you've got your shit together and you've

00:52:06.090 --> 00:52:07.530
rehearsed it enough and you know the script well

00:52:07.530 --> 00:52:10.389
enough or you're in it enough, you can get back

00:52:10.389 --> 00:52:14.170
there. And the same with a song, the same with

00:52:14.170 --> 00:52:17.710
so many things. And it's always more, like my

00:52:17.710 --> 00:52:20.550
best moments, my favorite moments on stage, my

00:52:20.550 --> 00:52:22.889
favorite shows, my favorite things are when things

00:52:22.889 --> 00:52:25.989
that I have let it go or gotten up there and

00:52:25.989 --> 00:52:29.630
been like, I played a show with The Great Dying.

00:52:29.710 --> 00:52:31.610
I don't know if you've... If you're familiar

00:52:31.610 --> 00:52:33.769
with them, but they're like, they're on the dial

00:52:33.769 --> 00:52:36.989
back sound. Okay. Okay. Yeah. It's an Oxford,

00:52:37.090 --> 00:52:39.230
Mississippi, Will Griffith. He's one of my best

00:52:39.230 --> 00:52:41.409
friends. Okay. Super sweet guy. And he's an awesome

00:52:41.409 --> 00:52:45.190
singer songwriter. Yeah. Now that you're like

00:52:45.190 --> 00:52:49.150
a bunch of strings are coming together. I think

00:52:49.150 --> 00:52:51.369
more are going to come between now and like next

00:52:51.369 --> 00:52:54.150
weekend. I think even more so connecting lots

00:52:54.150 --> 00:52:57.269
of dots between that community, this and, but

00:52:57.269 --> 00:53:00.210
sorry, I totally lost track of myself. No, you're

00:53:00.210 --> 00:53:03.099
fine. We got all the time in the world. Will

00:53:03.099 --> 00:53:05.179
Griffith. I love you, Will Griffith. Great guy.

00:53:05.320 --> 00:53:06.760
So we were playing a show. I was playing a show

00:53:06.760 --> 00:53:09.019
with them, and I used to play with the band all

00:53:09.019 --> 00:53:12.739
the time in Brooklyn. And it just gets hard to

00:53:12.739 --> 00:53:17.059
manage sometimes. It's like they're all in multiple

00:53:17.059 --> 00:53:20.019
projects. They all have families. And so we had

00:53:20.019 --> 00:53:21.519
a show, and I was supposed to have the whole

00:53:21.519 --> 00:53:23.619
band with me, and I didn't. It was like somebody

00:53:23.619 --> 00:53:25.679
the night before couldn't come for some reason,

00:53:25.699 --> 00:53:27.340
and without that person, it didn't make sense

00:53:27.340 --> 00:53:29.849
for... to have the band and somebody else got

00:53:29.849 --> 00:53:31.150
to say, whatever it was, I just decided, you

00:53:31.150 --> 00:53:32.289
know what, I'm going to play this show that I'm

00:53:32.289 --> 00:53:34.570
supposed to quote unquote headline in Brooklyn

00:53:34.570 --> 00:53:37.550
on Friday night. I don't have enough people coming

00:53:37.550 --> 00:53:39.849
anyway, but now I'm certainly going to, I got

00:53:39.849 --> 00:53:42.369
to go up there and play with just me and a guitar.

00:53:42.690 --> 00:53:46.530
I wasn't super well rehearsed, but I had promised

00:53:46.530 --> 00:53:48.610
myself that day, I was like, I'm going to play

00:53:48.610 --> 00:53:52.210
this new song. And I was like, I hadn't finished

00:53:52.210 --> 00:53:53.469
writing the song and I was, I don't know what

00:53:53.469 --> 00:53:54.670
I was doing. I was like, I'm going to punish

00:53:54.670 --> 00:53:58.340
myself. I was writing. Between the sound check,

00:53:58.460 --> 00:54:00.699
I was just like, write something down. Write

00:54:00.699 --> 00:54:02.739
the song. I was writing the song up until I went

00:54:02.739 --> 00:54:05.400
on stage. Normally for me, even though I'm not

00:54:05.400 --> 00:54:09.940
the most amazing and precise musician, I do have

00:54:09.940 --> 00:54:11.820
a little problem with perfectionism sometimes.

00:54:11.980 --> 00:54:15.500
The idea of going on stage by myself with the

00:54:15.500 --> 00:54:19.000
guitar to sing a song that was unfinished and

00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:21.679
that was not... stamped with my approval of this

00:54:21.679 --> 00:54:24.019
is good enough to share with somebody was like

00:54:24.019 --> 00:54:25.980
non was just crazy but i was like fuck it i'm

00:54:25.980 --> 00:54:29.420
gonna do this and it was one of the best things

00:54:29.420 --> 00:54:31.780
i've ever done i'm not saying it was not my greatest

00:54:31.780 --> 00:54:33.460
performance it's not my greatest song no but

00:54:33.460 --> 00:54:35.599
letting go of that fear yeah and the audience

00:54:35.599 --> 00:54:38.360
fucking loved it they were like they were the

00:54:38.360 --> 00:54:40.320
whole story the fact that i was willing to go

00:54:40.320 --> 00:54:42.059
up there and they were like and they were willing

00:54:42.059 --> 00:54:46.679
to catch whatever i was throwing or and we were

00:54:46.679 --> 00:54:48.659
all, it was just like the whole, it just felt

00:54:48.659 --> 00:54:50.320
like a real special moment, and that moment would

00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:51.960
have never happened if I would have not just

00:54:51.960 --> 00:54:54.460
been like, fuck it, let's just go with it. You

00:54:54.460 --> 00:54:57.340
miss the words or you make them up, and that's

00:54:57.340 --> 00:55:00.820
something, yeah, it's good. People like to see

00:55:00.820 --> 00:55:05.920
you take a swing sometimes. I want to back up

00:55:05.920 --> 00:55:09.719
a little bit. Sure. Just because you've been

00:55:09.719 --> 00:55:11.699
great about it. You've given me a nice little

00:55:11.699 --> 00:55:18.099
crumb trail to follow here. So you stopped performing

00:55:18.099 --> 00:55:23.579
any music that isn't musical related, it sounds

00:55:23.579 --> 00:55:27.239
like, in high school? For the most part. I dropped

00:55:27.239 --> 00:55:34.300
out of singing. My country music career probably

00:55:34.300 --> 00:55:38.019
went from late elementary to... early high school.

00:55:38.199 --> 00:55:41.860
The Garth Brooks cover. Is that what you call

00:55:41.860 --> 00:55:44.199
it? The Garth era? The Garth era. We can call

00:55:44.199 --> 00:55:47.219
it the Chris Gaines era if you want. I'll call

00:55:47.219 --> 00:55:50.099
it... I don't know what I'll call it. I will

00:55:50.099 --> 00:55:52.119
think about that. I'll have to ask my sisters.

00:55:53.360 --> 00:55:58.639
That was my very serious era. But it sounds like

00:55:58.639 --> 00:56:00.739
no matter what you're doing, you take it very

00:56:00.739 --> 00:56:04.989
seriously. Too seriously. Sometimes. I'm still

00:56:04.989 --> 00:56:06.809
working on loosening up on that, but yeah. Yeah,

00:56:06.809 --> 00:56:10.969
yeah. Definitely. I know a guy. Let me know what's

00:56:10.969 --> 00:56:14.530
over after this. I might know him. Then you go

00:56:14.530 --> 00:56:18.969
to FSU to study theater. I started in music.

00:56:18.989 --> 00:56:21.130
You started in music. Yeah, but things went a

00:56:21.130 --> 00:56:24.389
little south. Can we talk about that? Yeah, sure.

00:56:24.849 --> 00:56:28.550
I might gloss over some of the details just because

00:56:28.550 --> 00:56:31.690
some of it I don't want to rehash in great detail.

00:56:32.250 --> 00:56:35.050
That's fine. So, yeah, I graduated Wakulla High

00:56:35.050 --> 00:56:37.889
School. And then I've always been like a big

00:56:37.889 --> 00:56:40.829
mama's baby. Like our family is very close. But

00:56:40.829 --> 00:56:43.570
I also, as much as I, in my head, I was like,

00:56:43.590 --> 00:56:45.269
I have to move away because I'm going to have

00:56:45.269 --> 00:56:47.949
to move away and go get famous and rich. And

00:56:47.949 --> 00:56:49.250
then I'll come back and I'll be able to have

00:56:49.250 --> 00:56:51.989
tour buses and homes everywhere. And I can take

00:56:51.989 --> 00:56:55.090
care of my family and we'll all be fine. You're

00:56:55.090 --> 00:56:56.809
going to put Wakulla County on the map. Oh, yeah.

00:56:56.869 --> 00:57:02.340
That was the plan. And so anyway, I moved out.

00:57:02.460 --> 00:57:07.079
I went to FSU. They got accepted to the music

00:57:07.079 --> 00:57:08.880
school, and they had that Bright Futures scholarship.

00:57:09.199 --> 00:57:11.000
I guess they still have that. And so it was like,

00:57:11.019 --> 00:57:16.460
it was free, essentially, to go there. And I

00:57:16.460 --> 00:57:19.780
was very excited. I was very studious, and I

00:57:19.780 --> 00:57:22.019
had been like a perfect angel up until that point.

00:57:24.840 --> 00:57:26.559
You weren't getting into trouble in high school

00:57:26.559 --> 00:57:28.360
at all. I didn't go to parties. I didn't drink.

00:57:28.780 --> 00:57:32.340
I would chastise my friends who did. I think

00:57:32.340 --> 00:57:34.739
I got drunk twice in high school, and I smoked

00:57:34.739 --> 00:57:39.420
weed spring break my senior year. Horrid. And

00:57:39.420 --> 00:57:44.119
I cried drunk that night because I had, quote,

00:57:44.139 --> 00:57:47.139
unquote, broken, lost my drug virginity. I didn't

00:57:47.139 --> 00:57:50.539
even get high. I don't know. It sounds like you

00:57:50.539 --> 00:57:53.920
were pretty high to me. I'm sure I probably was.

00:57:54.260 --> 00:57:56.980
I was an idiot. That's one thing that's confirmed.

00:57:58.019 --> 00:58:03.179
My parents were amazing. They were pretty strict

00:58:03.179 --> 00:58:07.420
on us. They did us well growing up, kept us safe,

00:58:07.539 --> 00:58:12.440
all that kind of stuff. Also, I went from having...

00:58:13.150 --> 00:58:17.110
pretty strict rules to follow to then going to

00:58:17.110 --> 00:58:18.929
my freshman year. I was like, I'm going to live

00:58:18.929 --> 00:58:21.630
on campus, girl. You ain't keeping me. I'm like,

00:58:21.670 --> 00:58:24.070
I'm going to have this experience. And you're

00:58:24.070 --> 00:58:26.130
moving to the big city, Tallahassee. We're going

00:58:26.130 --> 00:58:29.489
to town. We're going to town. And like, it was

00:58:29.489 --> 00:58:32.909
30 minutes away. So it was perfect in my head.

00:58:33.530 --> 00:58:36.210
It's like far enough away to be independent,

00:58:36.289 --> 00:58:39.420
but not so far that like. They couldn't help

00:58:39.420 --> 00:58:42.800
you in an emergency. Exactly. And plenty of those

00:58:42.800 --> 00:58:46.340
emergencies definitely bubbled up. But I just

00:58:46.340 --> 00:58:50.780
went buck wild. It's not a new story. But I went

00:58:50.780 --> 00:58:53.679
from being a straight -A student, high -achieving,

00:58:53.940 --> 00:58:59.480
all these things, to not drinking, not doing

00:58:59.480 --> 00:59:03.460
any drugs, to being one night out with some friends

00:59:03.460 --> 00:59:06.139
on campus. Literally, it felt like it. The next

00:59:06.139 --> 00:59:08.059
day, I'm like... buying a pack of cigarettes.

00:59:08.280 --> 00:59:12.059
I like, they're like, we're going to do a, somebody

00:59:12.059 --> 00:59:15.559
said to me, mom and dad, you can pause the podcast

00:59:15.559 --> 00:59:18.940
or skip to the next part. But somebody said to

00:59:18.940 --> 00:59:22.199
me, like, you want to try ecstasy? And I was

00:59:22.199 --> 00:59:25.579
like, you know what? Sure. I'm like, I'm living

00:59:25.579 --> 00:59:27.920
my life. I'm going to try ecstasy. And I did

00:59:27.920 --> 00:59:31.739
it and it was really good. That's why they call

00:59:31.739 --> 00:59:36.699
it ecstasy. And then, The next week, somebody

00:59:36.699 --> 00:59:39.940
was like, there was a drug lord. I call him,

00:59:40.000 --> 00:59:41.760
he was so sweet. His name was, he called him

00:59:41.760 --> 00:59:45.860
Fluffy. And he had like pink hair and he was,

00:59:45.880 --> 00:59:49.039
but he was selling drugs to the people at Reynolds

00:59:49.039 --> 00:59:52.800
Hall or whatever the fuck it was. And he, so

00:59:52.800 --> 00:59:55.179
anyway, they were like. Statutes of limitations

00:59:55.179 --> 00:59:57.820
is way past on that, by the way. Yeah, absolutely.

00:59:58.980 --> 01:00:03.369
Redact that. I'll bleep the name. I'll just leave

01:00:03.369 --> 01:00:06.349
in Fluffy. Just leave Fluffy. I love you, Fluffy.

01:00:06.389 --> 01:00:09.210
I hope you're still living life and living large.

01:00:11.070 --> 01:00:14.050
Fluffy was really helpful, but basically what

01:00:14.050 --> 01:00:15.710
happened is my friends were just like, I was

01:00:15.710 --> 01:00:17.150
like, so when are we doing that ecstasy again?

01:00:17.369 --> 01:00:19.210
And they're just like, we're not doing that.

01:00:19.269 --> 01:00:22.610
We're doing acid. We're doing acid next Thursday

01:00:22.610 --> 01:00:25.010
or whatever. To be fair, we always called ecstasy

01:00:25.010 --> 01:00:28.239
acid light. Oh, I didn't even realize. So they

01:00:28.239 --> 01:00:30.980
were like, we're doing acid. And I was like,

01:00:31.079 --> 01:00:32.880
okay. All I remember about acid, I was like,

01:00:32.940 --> 01:00:36.000
oh, acid. I just was told one time. Somebody

01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:37.900
told me when I was 12 that it was the worst thing

01:00:37.900 --> 01:00:39.400
you could possibly, the worst drug in the world.

01:00:39.679 --> 01:00:41.920
Make you crazy and it will kill you. And I just,

01:00:41.940 --> 01:00:44.400
I grew up believing everything I heard. And if

01:00:44.400 --> 01:00:46.519
they said no, you don't do it. But I was like,

01:00:46.579 --> 01:00:49.219
again, I'm like, I am living my big city life

01:00:49.219 --> 01:00:51.320
in Tallahassee on campus. So I was just like,

01:00:51.380 --> 01:00:52.900
I'm going to do it. I'm going to fucking do it.

01:00:53.929 --> 01:00:56.329
On one level, it was the greatest experience.

01:00:56.369 --> 01:00:59.409
The first time, folks, let's not tell anybody

01:00:59.409 --> 01:01:01.989
to do drugs, but for some folks, the first time

01:01:01.989 --> 01:01:04.409
that you trip on LSD or mushrooms, if it's not

01:01:04.409 --> 01:01:07.849
terrifying, can be really unbelievably magical,

01:01:07.969 --> 01:01:09.809
and I felt like I was in Alice in Wonderland,

01:01:09.849 --> 01:01:13.809
and it was quite amazing. George Harrison said,

01:01:13.969 --> 01:01:20.309
you only need to trip on LSD once. Yeah, I believe

01:01:20.309 --> 01:01:22.420
that. He was like... I did it hundreds of times,

01:01:22.420 --> 01:01:25.159
but you only need to do it once. I agree with

01:01:25.159 --> 01:01:30.599
that. I did it more than enough during that time,

01:01:30.679 --> 01:01:34.960
but I will say that nothing meets your first

01:01:34.960 --> 01:01:37.340
time. I felt like anything after that was really

01:01:37.340 --> 01:01:41.380
just trying to get to that magical wonder of

01:01:41.380 --> 01:01:43.420
the first moment where you're just like, there's

01:01:43.420 --> 01:01:45.719
a moment when it starts to happen where it's

01:01:45.719 --> 01:01:48.139
just like things start to twitch and come to

01:01:48.139 --> 01:01:50.929
life and it's, this can't be happening. I'm literally

01:01:50.929 --> 01:01:55.449
in a movie. The birds from Mary Poppins that

01:01:55.449 --> 01:01:58.670
are animated could any moment fly onto my finger.

01:01:59.170 --> 01:02:01.989
I could be in a barnyard with cartoon characters

01:02:01.989 --> 01:02:04.710
right now, and it would all make sense. And that

01:02:04.710 --> 01:02:09.769
is a wonderful feeling. I think for me, once

01:02:09.769 --> 01:02:14.849
I let go of trying to recreate the first time,

01:02:14.889 --> 01:02:19.760
that's when I was able to find more magic. Sounds

01:02:19.760 --> 01:02:24.539
fun. Yeah, anyway. But drugs are bad. Don't do

01:02:24.539 --> 01:02:27.900
drugs. Don't do drugs. Especially not the really

01:02:27.900 --> 01:02:30.820
safe ones like LSD. Another taste that I went

01:02:30.820 --> 01:02:35.559
off on. It went from legitimately going to church,

01:02:35.599 --> 01:02:38.380
going to the youth revival, to puberty hit me

01:02:38.380 --> 01:02:43.460
very late. It was starting to take at the end

01:02:43.460 --> 01:02:45.980
of high school, I think, where I was maybe senior

01:02:45.980 --> 01:02:49.639
year before I was starting to have... what clearly

01:02:49.639 --> 01:02:51.320
everybody else's feelings were having. I was

01:02:51.320 --> 01:02:56.059
dating girls and it was very obvious that I was

01:02:56.059 --> 01:03:00.760
gay. And so I was dating girls and the girls

01:03:00.760 --> 01:03:02.840
would be trying to make out eventually because

01:03:02.840 --> 01:03:05.420
they were like, what is happening? And I would

01:03:05.420 --> 01:03:08.699
be like, we can't do this because we're going

01:03:08.699 --> 01:03:11.039
to have to wait until we're married or whatever.

01:03:11.179 --> 01:03:12.800
Let's design our house together. What do you

01:03:12.800 --> 01:03:15.320
want to have? How many children do you want to

01:03:15.320 --> 01:03:17.300
have? What are their names going to be? Should

01:03:17.300 --> 01:03:20.980
we have... Three story house. I was like, I was

01:03:20.980 --> 01:03:22.940
interested in that kind of like chatter instead

01:03:22.940 --> 01:03:26.639
of, but then, so all this authority coming, getting

01:03:26.639 --> 01:03:29.760
close to graduation, sex finally becomes like

01:03:29.760 --> 01:03:32.699
an issue. And I start to realize that like, maybe,

01:03:32.760 --> 01:03:37.059
oh, this is all making sense now. So you weren't

01:03:37.059 --> 01:03:40.199
really aware of it. No, it was like, I was like,

01:03:40.340 --> 01:03:43.079
it was high school before. I definitely. Look,

01:03:43.159 --> 01:03:44.599
I'd definitely always known that something was

01:03:44.599 --> 01:03:47.039
different. I didn't know anything was wrong with

01:03:47.039 --> 01:03:50.400
it until people start telling you that somewhere

01:03:50.400 --> 01:03:54.300
between four, five, six. That kind of goes back

01:03:54.300 --> 01:03:57.860
to what we were talking about earlier. A lot

01:03:57.860 --> 01:04:00.679
of these things that are just innate about us,

01:04:00.699 --> 01:04:04.420
nobody tells us. Until you're told that something

01:04:04.420 --> 01:04:07.780
is... Right. And then they sexualize it. And

01:04:07.780 --> 01:04:10.139
then they sexualize it and shame you for it.

01:04:10.699 --> 01:04:12.920
it becomes like a massive complication too. It's

01:04:12.920 --> 01:04:16.420
just you feel shame for stuff that you've never

01:04:16.420 --> 01:04:21.500
even done. Or sometimes the real tea is, I remember

01:04:21.500 --> 01:04:25.340
having friends in middle school and early high

01:04:25.340 --> 01:04:28.000
school, and those friends, like a lot of the

01:04:28.000 --> 01:04:30.340
straight boys who were any kind of popular guys

01:04:30.340 --> 01:04:33.539
were keeping their distance from me by that point.

01:04:33.659 --> 01:04:35.239
But I had a few friends that they would tell

01:04:35.239 --> 01:04:36.920
me stories about, like they would be calling

01:04:36.920 --> 01:04:39.900
me. the F word and Wiley Gay Boy and writing

01:04:39.900 --> 01:04:41.519
shit about me on the walls. But then they would

01:04:41.519 --> 01:04:44.519
tell me about some, what I could, I'm sure, I

01:04:44.519 --> 01:04:48.639
didn't experience it because whatever, a normal

01:04:48.639 --> 01:04:51.920
sexual exploration that happens about guys. But

01:04:51.920 --> 01:04:54.800
they would be like literally having like circle

01:04:54.800 --> 01:04:56.880
jerks and telling me what happened with their,

01:04:56.920 --> 01:05:00.300
how big somebody's nuts were and then calling

01:05:00.300 --> 01:05:02.900
me like gay. And I would be like, do you hear

01:05:02.900 --> 01:05:05.079
yourself right now? Do you hear what's going

01:05:05.079 --> 01:05:07.619
on? It doesn't change the fact that I am gay

01:05:07.619 --> 01:05:11.019
and I was gay, but I would be so mad. I would

01:05:11.019 --> 01:05:13.219
be like, they're calling me names and they're

01:05:13.219 --> 01:05:14.639
calling me this and they're the ones that are

01:05:14.639 --> 01:05:18.719
doing these awful things. And then years later,

01:05:18.800 --> 01:05:22.260
you're like, well, yeah, I'm not going to. But

01:05:22.260 --> 01:05:25.119
anyway, so all of this kind of culminates as

01:05:25.119 --> 01:05:27.219
I'm starting FSU, moving away from home. It's

01:05:27.219 --> 01:05:30.079
a blessing and a curse. I did not need to be

01:05:30.079 --> 01:05:35.079
on my own. I was just, I had no, a slob. do a

01:05:35.079 --> 01:05:37.780
lot of things despite being smart, but also,

01:05:37.860 --> 01:05:43.360
but I was also able to go be myself and go to

01:05:43.360 --> 01:05:46.139
brothers. And yeah, that was an eighties night.

01:05:46.199 --> 01:05:49.440
And I'm, I'm sure it's stuff of legend in Tallahassee,

01:05:49.460 --> 01:05:52.059
but like the Sunday night, they think, I think

01:05:52.059 --> 01:05:54.559
they still do it now. It's nine to six, but it's,

01:05:54.559 --> 01:05:57.860
it's pretty like brothers has changed names like

01:05:57.860 --> 01:06:00.500
three or four times, but it's pretty much still

01:06:00.500 --> 01:06:03.739
the same bar. It's always been. My friend and

01:06:03.739 --> 01:06:06.840
I went two or three weeks ago. At first, I'd

01:06:06.840 --> 01:06:09.400
been in years for the gay night or whatever,

01:06:09.559 --> 01:06:13.539
and it's shocking how similar it is. Yeah. It's

01:06:13.539 --> 01:06:15.739
really close to me, so I'll go catch a drag show

01:06:15.739 --> 01:06:18.199
just on a random Friday. It's nice to have that

01:06:18.199 --> 01:06:20.300
little nostalgia kick. Get a burger. And they

01:06:20.300 --> 01:06:23.539
serve food, right? Yeah. There's that. And they

01:06:23.539 --> 01:06:25.099
have good concerts, too. They have some good

01:06:25.099 --> 01:06:27.840
shows there. I've seen, like, and also, like,

01:06:27.840 --> 01:06:29.679
Steve Hofstetter's coming there soon, I think.

01:06:29.739 --> 01:06:32.300
Yeah, and Shane Moss was just there. And then

01:06:32.300 --> 01:06:35.219
he was on the podcast, too. Amazing. But yeah,

01:06:35.280 --> 01:06:38.320
it's a great venue. They got a great sound guy.

01:06:38.860 --> 01:06:42.420
And Carl, who owns it, I've known him for years.

01:06:42.860 --> 01:06:44.760
He used to have these big parties at his house

01:06:44.760 --> 01:06:49.059
after Brothers would close. And it would just

01:06:49.059 --> 01:06:52.940
be like hundreds of people. I don't know. That

01:06:52.940 --> 01:06:54.619
was a long time ago when I had a lot more energy

01:06:54.619 --> 01:06:58.119
and the ability to stay out that late. I think

01:06:58.119 --> 01:07:01.869
this actually goes, this is a really, this. right

01:07:01.869 --> 01:07:04.150
where i wanted to ask you next actually it was

01:07:04.150 --> 01:07:06.710
like you're listing all your influences at a

01:07:06.710 --> 01:07:11.550
young age and what i'm hearing is a lot of women

01:07:11.550 --> 01:07:14.730
what i'm not hearing is like gay icons of any

01:07:14.730 --> 01:07:17.309
kind like dolly parton was not a gay icon at

01:07:17.309 --> 01:07:20.889
the time like right now right but i'm thinking

01:07:20.889 --> 01:07:24.969
like bowie or prince or just like more i guess

01:07:24.969 --> 01:07:29.170
the androgynous kind of like gender bending sure

01:07:29.170 --> 01:07:33.340
yeah yeah men that were really perfect segue

01:07:33.340 --> 01:07:35.599
for this because that's right when i feel like

01:07:35.599 --> 01:07:37.739
i just started to discover those people okay

01:07:37.739 --> 01:07:43.059
yeah so you're in tallahassee you're starting

01:07:43.059 --> 01:07:45.679
in music but you're it sounds like you're not

01:07:45.679 --> 01:07:47.940
really even going to class very much or were

01:07:47.940 --> 01:07:52.139
you at first i did i was like but then i stopped

01:07:52.139 --> 01:07:54.420
like i would just start to i really slacked off

01:07:54.420 --> 01:07:57.539
and then oh god then i remember like getting

01:07:57.539 --> 01:07:59.980
an email one day probably when i was coming off

01:07:59.980 --> 01:08:02.719
an acid trip or something like that. For a few

01:08:02.719 --> 01:08:05.159
weeks, months in there, I was just like, I was

01:08:05.159 --> 01:08:08.480
really into LSD. The thing is, it is a drug you

01:08:08.480 --> 01:08:12.440
really have to treat with respect and not overdo

01:08:12.440 --> 01:08:15.579
it, or it can make your life kind of spiral out

01:08:15.579 --> 01:08:19.359
of control. Definitely, I was just not, just

01:08:19.359 --> 01:08:23.000
being a wild 18 -year -old who never had any

01:08:23.000 --> 01:08:25.939
kind of, I had all the reins off, never had that

01:08:25.939 --> 01:08:30.000
before, so figuring all that out. was really

01:08:30.000 --> 01:08:34.000
intense i managed to like it wasn't quite the

01:08:34.000 --> 01:08:37.060
i'm sure it seemed really bad at the time coming

01:08:37.060 --> 01:08:38.779
from where i was because i was literally like

01:08:38.779 --> 01:08:42.279
it was like angel child to like devil child in

01:08:42.279 --> 01:08:46.300
one year like in terms of the way that my family

01:08:46.300 --> 01:08:48.800
thought of me for sure and like the way that

01:08:48.800 --> 01:08:54.319
society measures success right so it's not to

01:08:54.319 --> 01:08:56.800
me i'm hearing like this coming of age like yeah

01:08:57.550 --> 01:08:59.850
If I was on a gap year, this is what I would

01:08:59.850 --> 01:09:02.569
have been doing. If I was taken off a year between

01:09:02.569 --> 01:09:04.609
there, this is the experiences I probably would

01:09:04.609 --> 01:09:07.430
have been having if I was a normal 18 -year -old.

01:09:07.550 --> 01:09:11.029
But the way the world sees it is you're failing.

01:09:11.329 --> 01:09:13.869
Failing. And you're disappointing everybody,

01:09:13.989 --> 01:09:17.069
and you're never going to be able to do anything

01:09:17.069 --> 01:09:20.329
musically if you're out here smoking cigarettes

01:09:20.329 --> 01:09:22.329
and staying up all night and not making it to

01:09:22.329 --> 01:09:25.800
class. I also, I wasn't like, I was in the head

01:09:25.800 --> 01:09:28.640
of the voice faculties, like voice studio. And

01:09:28.640 --> 01:09:31.859
he had gone to, he was, I had auditioned. He

01:09:31.859 --> 01:09:34.539
had, he, I had known him since high school. Like,

01:09:34.539 --> 01:09:36.460
so it was definitely, there was some like, you

01:09:36.460 --> 01:09:38.739
know, there were, it felt high stakes looking.

01:09:38.819 --> 01:09:41.159
It felt like a terrible time at the time. And

01:09:41.159 --> 01:09:44.000
it was in some ways, but like looking back now,

01:09:44.100 --> 01:09:48.180
it's just, it's such a shame that it wasn't like,

01:09:48.239 --> 01:09:51.500
I don't think we should celebrate. idiot with

01:09:51.500 --> 01:09:55.460
my actions at the time but having somebody be

01:09:55.460 --> 01:09:58.100
able to say although this is pretty normal like

01:09:58.100 --> 01:10:02.079
standard fair yeah shit that you're going through

01:10:02.079 --> 01:10:04.920
and standard fair like stuff that you're experimenting

01:10:04.920 --> 01:10:08.180
with freedom it is going to be difficult you

01:10:08.180 --> 01:10:09.819
might want to get some discipline in here you

01:10:09.819 --> 01:10:11.640
might want to make sure you're seeing a therapist

01:10:11.640 --> 01:10:14.039
you might want to do whatever it is this and

01:10:14.039 --> 01:10:16.920
that and a third well and that's why i think

01:10:16.920 --> 01:10:22.619
it's so important to have that representation,

01:10:23.159 --> 01:10:25.920
those icons, those people that growing up that

01:10:25.920 --> 01:10:29.579
you could have looked up to that you like didn't

01:10:29.579 --> 01:10:33.680
have. One of my best friends is a trans man.

01:10:33.840 --> 01:10:36.220
And one thing that he's told me is like growing

01:10:36.220 --> 01:10:39.899
up, the only representation he ever saw was like

01:10:39.899 --> 01:10:44.340
on Jerry Springer. Sure. Or those kinds of shows.

01:10:44.479 --> 01:10:47.579
And it was like something he couldn't even relate

01:10:47.579 --> 01:10:53.630
to at all. 100%. And so not having any kind of

01:10:53.630 --> 01:10:59.630
example to be set for you or whatever, I can

01:10:59.630 --> 01:11:03.029
imagine that being really, just feeling really

01:11:03.029 --> 01:11:06.609
lost when trying to find yourself. Yeah, and

01:11:06.609 --> 01:11:10.909
also not 100%. And also, I think that's one of

01:11:10.909 --> 01:11:13.010
the reasons that I rejected country, because

01:11:13.010 --> 01:11:15.609
I could see that coming, aside from just the

01:11:15.609 --> 01:11:18.739
fact, and also leaning into... I don't think

01:11:18.739 --> 01:11:20.140
I was conscious of it, maybe that I was leaning

01:11:20.140 --> 01:11:22.119
into music theater and classical music, which

01:11:22.119 --> 01:11:25.340
would have been more pro -queer and pro -gay

01:11:25.340 --> 01:11:28.659
and more like of my people. So that actually

01:11:28.659 --> 01:11:33.439
was good in that sense, right? But also, it took

01:11:33.439 --> 01:11:35.960
me a while to realize that what I actually loved

01:11:35.960 --> 01:11:40.680
to do was not classical music. And what I loved

01:11:40.680 --> 01:11:44.859
to do was this thing that I had left behind.

01:11:47.310 --> 01:11:49.229
Looking back at that, you're like, there was

01:11:49.229 --> 01:11:53.229
no one. There is no one. If there's anybody up

01:11:53.229 --> 01:11:58.090
there, they are completely closeted or if they've

01:11:58.090 --> 01:12:01.130
managed to get up there at all at that point.

01:12:01.609 --> 01:12:05.510
There were no... Like you say, even going back

01:12:05.510 --> 01:12:10.670
to Jerry Springer, I remember Boy George. We'd

01:12:10.670 --> 01:12:13.789
have VH1 and we would watch these videos. Boy

01:12:13.789 --> 01:12:17.770
George probably caused some commotion. But also,

01:12:17.850 --> 01:12:20.529
less commotion than I feel like is being caused

01:12:20.529 --> 01:12:24.970
today by other... It's just so bizarre to me

01:12:24.970 --> 01:12:27.489
how people... That's another conversation, but...

01:12:27.489 --> 01:12:30.369
Yeah, we can get as... There's nothing off limits

01:12:30.369 --> 01:12:34.649
here. But yeah, Boy George was also like... But

01:12:34.649 --> 01:12:37.390
it is cyclical as hell. Yeah, so, so cyclical.

01:12:37.909 --> 01:12:40.729
But there was... It was like there was some kind

01:12:40.729 --> 01:12:44.390
of other... That person was other. Or people

01:12:44.390 --> 01:12:47.979
on Jerry Springer, and they're... being treated

01:12:47.979 --> 01:12:50.659
like a sideshow act. It was stuff that you did

01:12:50.659 --> 01:12:53.319
not necessarily resonate with or didn't think

01:12:53.319 --> 01:12:55.100
you wanted to be associated with. It was like

01:12:55.100 --> 01:12:56.859
something hidden in the shadows, something that

01:12:56.859 --> 01:13:00.460
was like nefarious or bad, right? Instead of,

01:13:00.460 --> 01:13:03.020
and so the only country music like queerity you

01:13:03.020 --> 01:13:05.739
see that you grow up is like the fact that Dolly

01:13:05.739 --> 01:13:07.939
Parton's all of her dresses are made by a gay

01:13:07.939 --> 01:13:10.890
man, right? Or that... All these people, there's

01:13:10.890 --> 01:13:12.590
plenty of, you look back, you're like, oh God,

01:13:12.689 --> 01:13:14.630
how many gay men must there have been involved

01:13:14.630 --> 01:13:18.270
in Nashville from the 60s or the 80s? If you

01:13:18.270 --> 01:13:21.109
look at the rhinestones alone, you've got people

01:13:21.109 --> 01:13:23.149
like, I remember seeing Reba McEntire at the

01:13:23.149 --> 01:13:25.229
Civic Center and just being like, and feeling

01:13:25.229 --> 01:13:27.590
like watching the male dancers and you're just

01:13:27.590 --> 01:13:30.569
like, oh, what's happening? They're all working

01:13:30.569 --> 01:13:32.430
within the industry. They're all in part of it

01:13:32.430 --> 01:13:33.869
or whatever it is, but it's just all like hidden,

01:13:34.010 --> 01:13:36.810
right? It's all. Yeah, yeah. Keep that shit to

01:13:36.810 --> 01:13:39.649
yourself and keep that shit quiet and pass and

01:13:39.649 --> 01:13:44.430
don't do anything to upset the big dogs. But

01:13:44.430 --> 01:13:47.189
the result of that is when young people are coming

01:13:47.189 --> 01:13:52.510
of age and wanting to be in that industry, they

01:13:52.510 --> 01:13:55.770
don't have anybody to look to. None. Because

01:13:55.770 --> 01:13:59.229
it's all hidden. None. And that's what's exciting

01:13:59.229 --> 01:14:03.569
about, I think, what's happened. Obviously, right

01:14:03.569 --> 01:14:07.880
now things are... fucked but like in general

01:14:07.880 --> 01:14:09.399
especially with i just think like the younger

01:14:09.399 --> 01:14:11.199
generations and stuff like that there's just

01:14:11.199 --> 01:14:12.819
so much more of that there's so much more visibility

01:14:12.819 --> 01:14:17.640
in queer music and queer country even the last

01:14:17.640 --> 01:14:21.000
place that i expected to find a big queer country

01:14:21.000 --> 01:14:24.199
community was brooklyn new york and when i moved

01:14:24.199 --> 01:14:28.340
to new york and played i mean i had not been

01:14:28.340 --> 01:14:30.979
playing music for a while and someone reached

01:14:30.979 --> 01:14:34.619
out to me to play a show and they were doing

01:14:34.619 --> 01:14:38.380
a queer country monthly and i was like wait what

01:14:38.380 --> 01:14:41.819
is happening right now and it was like and i

01:14:41.819 --> 01:14:44.560
remember playing and it was like such a life

01:14:44.560 --> 01:14:47.020
affirming like moment it's my first show in new

01:14:47.020 --> 01:14:48.899
york city and like i had enough time i thought

01:14:48.899 --> 01:14:52.399
to prepare for it when i played to like my friends

01:14:52.399 --> 01:14:55.000
i'd known people no one knew that i played tell

01:14:55.000 --> 01:14:56.899
them i played music i hadn't played any for the

01:14:56.899 --> 01:14:59.640
couple years that i'd been there i was so intimidated

01:14:59.640 --> 01:15:03.460
and And Karen Pittleman of Karen and the Sorrows,

01:15:03.500 --> 01:15:05.640
who's an amazing musician, an amazing human being,

01:15:05.760 --> 01:15:08.579
has always championed me. She reached out to

01:15:08.579 --> 01:15:10.399
me on Facebook Messenger, and she was like, I

01:15:10.399 --> 01:15:12.079
heard from somebody that you play music, and

01:15:12.079 --> 01:15:14.319
we would love to have you at this event. And

01:15:14.319 --> 01:15:15.539
I had three months, so I knew that was enough

01:15:15.539 --> 01:15:19.359
time to learn my songs and practice and get my

01:15:19.359 --> 01:15:21.359
shit together. And that's what kind of brought

01:15:21.359 --> 01:15:23.979
you back into singing on your own and performing

01:15:23.979 --> 01:15:27.000
on your own? Yeah, I was in Chicago before that,

01:15:27.060 --> 01:15:28.760
and I started there. I jumped ahead of the story

01:15:28.760 --> 01:15:31.949
a little bit. No, that's fine. But I moved to

01:15:31.949 --> 01:15:35.369
New York. I've got ADHD. Same. More in common.

01:15:35.750 --> 01:15:39.350
So basically, I started playing music in Chicago.

01:15:39.409 --> 01:15:42.550
I was feeling getting my bearings there. And

01:15:42.550 --> 01:15:44.909
then I fell in love with New York and wanted

01:15:44.909 --> 01:15:47.529
to move there and got an opportunity. And my

01:15:47.529 --> 01:15:49.289
intention, I told myself at the time, was that

01:15:49.289 --> 01:15:51.770
I will move there and I will sing and play music

01:15:51.770 --> 01:15:55.729
there. And I got there and I was like, I can't

01:15:55.729 --> 01:15:57.960
do it. It wasn't a conscious thing, but I was

01:15:57.960 --> 01:15:59.060
just like, eventually I'll do that. I'll get

01:15:59.060 --> 01:16:01.439
to that. I'll get to that. Sorry. And I never

01:16:01.439 --> 01:16:04.760
did because I was just scared and so stupid.

01:16:04.800 --> 01:16:08.640
But, and then I remember going to see a show

01:16:08.640 --> 01:16:10.619
and this is not, the guy was great. He was wonderful.

01:16:10.720 --> 01:16:12.500
He was opening for a friend of mine. It has nothing

01:16:12.500 --> 01:16:15.579
to do with how good or not good he was. But like,

01:16:15.600 --> 01:16:19.560
I, I went to the show and I saw the guy play.

01:16:19.680 --> 01:16:22.399
It was the guy and a guitar. And it was like.

01:16:23.090 --> 01:16:25.750
And he was fine and he did good and everybody

01:16:25.750 --> 01:16:29.630
liked it. And I also was like, I don't know what

01:16:29.630 --> 01:16:31.710
I'm worried about. I can do everything he just

01:16:31.710 --> 01:16:35.050
did. I can do it at least that good. And that

01:16:35.050 --> 01:16:36.609
was like a moment. And right around that time,

01:16:36.630 --> 01:16:40.229
Karen reached out to me and offered me this opportunity

01:16:40.229 --> 01:16:42.050
to play the Queer Country Monthly in November.

01:16:42.970 --> 01:16:46.909
And I, it was just like, I was like, oh my God,

01:16:46.930 --> 01:16:48.289
this is so great. So there's this place called

01:16:48.289 --> 01:16:51.510
Branded Saloons, a gay owned place. Brooklyn

01:16:51.510 --> 01:16:55.430
and it's still open still owned by the same queers

01:16:55.430 --> 01:16:58.170
and it's the it's just been a great home for

01:16:58.170 --> 01:17:00.989
that but also the community and so like beyond

01:17:00.989 --> 01:17:03.850
that it's like we went on this I felt like I

01:17:03.850 --> 01:17:07.250
had found my people like beyond music people

01:17:07.250 --> 01:17:10.229
beyond whatever it's like the fact that also

01:17:10.750 --> 01:17:12.789
we could reference the same stuff that I would

01:17:12.789 --> 01:17:15.170
be talking about, the same musicians, and they

01:17:15.170 --> 01:17:16.909
would know it, and they would know what it's

01:17:16.909 --> 01:17:19.369
like to be a gay person or a queer person who,

01:17:19.550 --> 01:17:22.189
as they said, and they coined it so well, loves

01:17:22.189 --> 01:17:25.390
something that doesn't love you back. And that's

01:17:25.390 --> 01:17:28.210
the way, that was my relationship with country

01:17:28.210 --> 01:17:29.890
music for a while. It's like something that felt

01:17:29.890 --> 01:17:32.199
like... Like kind of the way it is with parents

01:17:32.199 --> 01:17:33.859
sometimes and other relationships where you're

01:17:33.859 --> 01:17:35.979
like, it starts out very good and strong and

01:17:35.979 --> 01:17:38.479
then like you start to have your own identity.

01:17:38.579 --> 01:17:41.739
And so that challenges something with them. And

01:17:41.739 --> 01:17:46.500
so that challenge, being gay challenges the identity

01:17:46.500 --> 01:17:49.100
of country music almost in some way and vice

01:17:49.100 --> 01:17:52.979
versa. And so you have this dissonance or whatever.

01:17:53.199 --> 01:17:56.340
And so to find people who had that very specific

01:17:56.340 --> 01:17:59.039
thing. And part of the thing, when I moved to

01:17:59.039 --> 01:18:01.000
New York, I remember people telling me, why don't

01:18:01.000 --> 01:18:02.279
you move to Nashville? If you want to do music,

01:18:02.300 --> 01:18:03.420
why don't you move to Nashville? And I was like,

01:18:03.460 --> 01:18:05.460
I've never even really visited it. And I just

01:18:05.460 --> 01:18:07.300
didn't, I wasn't interested. I was like, I want

01:18:07.300 --> 01:18:10.140
to move there. And if I have to sacrifice not

01:18:10.140 --> 01:18:11.819
being around country music, then that's like

01:18:11.819 --> 01:18:15.060
fine. And what I didn't expect to find was like

01:18:15.060 --> 01:18:17.600
a massive at the time, what felt like massive

01:18:17.600 --> 01:18:20.920
to me, just like a big community of queer country

01:18:20.920 --> 01:18:23.560
folks. Some folks that I still hang out with

01:18:23.560 --> 01:18:26.279
and a lot of them are very active today. Were

01:18:26.279 --> 01:18:29.739
you aware of... that scene existing anywhere

01:18:29.739 --> 01:18:33.560
at all no not really i'd heard i wasn't paying

01:18:33.560 --> 01:18:36.239
attention to anything like that too but also

01:18:36.239 --> 01:18:39.659
it was just like and also i i would i had just

01:18:39.659 --> 01:18:42.020
moved i was in my 20s i just moved to new york

01:18:42.020 --> 01:18:47.539
and i was also just in i was a little more mature

01:18:47.539 --> 01:18:51.439
than my previous stories to a degree and had

01:18:51.439 --> 01:18:53.159
a little bit i'd spent some time in a big city

01:18:53.159 --> 01:18:56.199
i had i was able to handle my shit a little bit

01:18:56.199 --> 01:18:58.319
better, but I was having the time of my life.

01:18:58.399 --> 01:19:02.720
And also just at the time, I just, I think being

01:19:02.720 --> 01:19:05.479
afraid was also a great excuse not to do a lot

01:19:05.479 --> 01:19:07.619
of the stuff. Yeah, yeah. Because I could just

01:19:07.619 --> 01:19:09.920
keep going out and having a good time. So how

01:19:09.920 --> 01:19:14.720
did you finally get out of Tallahassee, the Tallahassee

01:19:14.720 --> 01:19:18.199
Greater Metropolitan Area, as we might call it?

01:19:18.600 --> 01:19:20.279
It sounds so ridiculous when I say it. We're

01:19:20.279 --> 01:19:22.600
just going to call it town. Because you got out

01:19:22.600 --> 01:19:25.510
of Wakulla. Yeah. And I went back and forth.

01:19:25.609 --> 01:19:29.810
Yeah. My parents have been real good to me in

01:19:29.810 --> 01:19:34.050
a lot of ways. I've shown up back at their house

01:19:34.050 --> 01:19:38.250
many times. And then once I left FSU, though,

01:19:38.289 --> 01:19:41.770
I was like, I wanted to. So I dropped music school

01:19:41.770 --> 01:19:44.409
after the first year, and I switched to theater.

01:19:44.510 --> 01:19:47.289
And I finished that thing, and I'm done with

01:19:47.289 --> 01:19:48.930
music. I've had many times I've been done with

01:19:48.930 --> 01:19:50.649
music. And so I'm going to be done with music.

01:19:50.649 --> 01:19:53.739
I'm going to be an actor. I'm going to go somewhere.

01:19:53.939 --> 01:19:55.779
And I was too afraid and didn't really believe

01:19:55.779 --> 01:19:57.520
in myself very much, but I was too afraid to

01:19:57.520 --> 01:20:00.260
move to New York. And also everyone had to be

01:20:00.260 --> 01:20:03.140
convinced that if I moved to New York, I'm going

01:20:03.140 --> 01:20:09.140
to end up dying of AIDS and being poor and like

01:20:09.140 --> 01:20:11.220
all these horror stories. You'd watched Rent

01:20:11.220 --> 01:20:17.000
a lot. Right? They had. And so it's, I just was

01:20:17.000 --> 01:20:18.720
petrified of the place. And then everybody was

01:20:18.720 --> 01:20:22.260
like the successful, like, Top -tier theater

01:20:22.260 --> 01:20:23.760
school students were all going to New York, and

01:20:23.760 --> 01:20:26.859
that felt intimidating and scary. But I had a

01:20:26.859 --> 01:20:29.039
teacher who just randomly told me one day, she

01:20:29.039 --> 01:20:32.260
was like, I think Chicago would be a great city

01:20:32.260 --> 01:20:36.859
for you after graduation. I mean, I love Chicago.

01:20:37.000 --> 01:20:40.460
As a city, it's one of my favorite places. So

01:20:40.460 --> 01:20:43.399
good. As long as it's not anywhere between late

01:20:43.399 --> 01:20:46.579
November and March. Oh, man. I don't know if

01:20:46.579 --> 01:20:49.439
I could. I've been there during New Year's, and

01:20:49.439 --> 01:20:53.449
it's horrible. I love you, Chicago, but 40 degrees

01:20:53.449 --> 01:20:56.529
below zero is not cool. Yeah, I don't know that

01:20:56.529 --> 01:20:58.229
I'd want to live there, but it's one of my favorite

01:20:58.229 --> 01:21:00.170
places to visit. How long did you live there?

01:21:00.270 --> 01:21:03.250
Four years. That was my first. I left Tallahassee

01:21:03.250 --> 01:21:07.750
for Chicago. The teacher told me that, and so

01:21:07.750 --> 01:21:11.779
I went and visited the city. I loved it. I also

01:21:11.779 --> 01:21:13.939
got to meet Dolly Parton because I had backstage

01:21:13.939 --> 01:21:16.300
passes. I also got my pockets cut out when I

01:21:16.300 --> 01:21:17.979
fell asleep on the train. So all of this was

01:21:17.979 --> 01:21:19.960
like not... Oh, my goodness. It was very like...

01:21:19.960 --> 01:21:22.119
I don't know that I've ever heard of that method.

01:21:22.739 --> 01:21:24.920
CTA, I fell asleep after we met Dolly. I had

01:21:24.920 --> 01:21:27.340
a big day. I had met Dolly Parton for the first

01:21:27.340 --> 01:21:30.020
and only time that I've met her, chatted with

01:21:30.020 --> 01:21:33.539
her. We went out. It was the first time visiting

01:21:33.539 --> 01:21:38.199
Chicago. I was drunk as Cooter Brown. I was also

01:21:38.199 --> 01:21:40.760
young and cheap and fearless. I was like, I'm

01:21:40.760 --> 01:21:42.399
not taking a cab. I'm going to take the train

01:21:42.399 --> 01:21:45.640
to my friend's hotel where we were staying. I

01:21:45.640 --> 01:21:48.739
got on the red line, and it's like Roxy back

01:21:48.739 --> 01:21:50.979
and forth. Somebody's asleep across from me,

01:21:50.979 --> 01:21:52.640
and I'm just thinking to myself, God, that looks

01:21:52.640 --> 01:21:55.159
comfortable. The next thing I know, I wake up

01:21:55.159 --> 01:21:57.840
at the end of the red line at 95th and Dan Ryan.

01:21:59.190 --> 01:22:01.869
and I'm wearing a wagon -wheel -embroidered,

01:22:01.869 --> 01:22:05.489
like, Western T -shirt that's at the Coliseum,

01:22:05.590 --> 01:22:08.449
my lesbian era. I was a little chubby and spiky

01:22:08.449 --> 01:22:11.630
hair, and I just looked cherub -like and a little

01:22:11.630 --> 01:22:14.869
androgynous. And I had just bought all this stuff

01:22:14.869 --> 01:22:16.430
from the Urban Outfitters because I thought that

01:22:16.430 --> 01:22:17.869
was the coolest thing in the world because it

01:22:17.869 --> 01:22:19.710
was new to me, and everything in the city was

01:22:19.710 --> 01:22:22.130
exciting. Anyway, I looked down. I didn't even

01:22:22.130 --> 01:22:23.930
look down. I get up off the stage. I panic. I'm

01:22:23.930 --> 01:22:27.760
like, it's more. It's like I've been out. We're

01:22:27.760 --> 01:22:29.939
in the train yards. It's like I run up and get

01:22:29.939 --> 01:22:31.800
off the train, and I don't know how long I've

01:22:31.800 --> 01:22:33.460
ridden it. If I've ridden it back and forth,

01:22:33.539 --> 01:22:36.520
what the fuck? And so I get off the train. I

01:22:36.520 --> 01:22:39.579
go. I'm like, I just need to get a cab from wherever

01:22:39.579 --> 01:22:42.699
I am, and I get off the train platform, and I

01:22:42.699 --> 01:22:44.720
reach my hand back through my pocket, and it

01:22:44.720 --> 01:22:46.500
goes straight clean through my pocket. So they

01:22:46.500 --> 01:22:50.180
cut down. I was asleep, and apparently they cut

01:22:50.180 --> 01:22:52.279
down the side of it, slipped the pocket out.

01:22:53.680 --> 01:22:57.359
Then they got the front of my pocket. They split

01:22:57.359 --> 01:22:59.340
this with a razor blade and pulled out stuff

01:22:59.340 --> 01:23:03.460
from this pocket. It did not wake me up. My wallet

01:23:03.460 --> 01:23:09.659
was gone. Then I tried to get back on the train

01:23:09.659 --> 01:23:11.899
platform and they won't let me on because I don't

01:23:11.899 --> 01:23:15.560
have a ticket. I'm freaking out. Finally, I freaked

01:23:15.560 --> 01:23:19.119
out. They let me on. I ride back. I find my friends.

01:23:19.260 --> 01:23:22.810
You show them the holes in your pocket. My parents

01:23:22.810 --> 01:23:24.869
are like, I called my mom. I remember I could

01:23:24.869 --> 01:23:27.430
tell she was pissed. Like, it was like, because

01:23:27.430 --> 01:23:31.090
I could tell that she, her, she didn't have any

01:23:31.090 --> 01:23:34.149
capacity to be like, I think I probably scared

01:23:34.149 --> 01:23:37.310
her so much that she was just like, like, she'd

01:23:37.310 --> 01:23:38.989
give me the cold shoulder. I was like, I need,

01:23:39.069 --> 01:23:41.949
I called her to get like, I had to fax birth

01:23:41.949 --> 01:23:44.409
certificate or some shit because I had to get

01:23:44.409 --> 01:23:47.350
on the plane and I had no identification. At

01:23:47.350 --> 01:23:50.390
least this was pre -9 -11, I think. It was actually.

01:23:52.580 --> 01:23:54.680
As I'm saying, I'm like, we got to be close.

01:23:54.699 --> 01:23:57.020
It's close. It was right after. So it was soon

01:23:57.020 --> 01:24:02.180
after 9 -11 and maybe like right after. So you'd

01:24:02.180 --> 01:24:04.659
think that it was going to be like, I was like,

01:24:04.720 --> 01:24:06.239
there's no way I'm going to be able to get on

01:24:06.239 --> 01:24:10.460
the plane. And whatever it was, it was basically

01:24:10.460 --> 01:24:13.380
the easiest at that point. Because maybe that

01:24:13.380 --> 01:24:16.039
whole year I'd been traveling, like where I'd

01:24:16.039 --> 01:24:20.189
gone. I remember traveling with a CD booklet

01:24:20.189 --> 01:24:22.989
and they went through, it was like the time when

01:24:22.989 --> 01:24:24.109
they were taking, they were randomly pulling

01:24:24.109 --> 01:24:25.609
people off the line and going through everything

01:24:25.609 --> 01:24:28.050
and like scanning and stuff. But like getting

01:24:28.050 --> 01:24:30.970
there early, not having an ID, being robbed,

01:24:31.069 --> 01:24:32.670
having the police report, all that kind of stuff.

01:24:33.180 --> 01:24:36.859
I was like slicker than goose shit through a

01:24:36.859 --> 01:24:39.619
tin horn. Yeah, I feel like with all that official

01:24:39.619 --> 01:24:41.859
documentation at that time, they probably were

01:24:41.859 --> 01:24:44.220
like, we got bigger fish to fry than give you

01:24:44.220 --> 01:24:46.560
more of a hard time. It was easier to go through

01:24:46.560 --> 01:24:51.319
that than actually going up there that trip.

01:24:51.760 --> 01:24:55.079
So that was just visiting. Yeah, sorry. So you

01:24:55.079 --> 01:24:57.119
got robbed and you're like, I'm going to move

01:24:57.119 --> 01:24:59.899
there right away. So the next thing I was like,

01:24:59.960 --> 01:25:02.159
you know what? I also met Dolly Parton, so it

01:25:02.159 --> 01:25:06.760
balances out. And so then I went, I was like,

01:25:06.819 --> 01:25:08.460
I need to figure this out. I need to go in like

01:25:08.460 --> 01:25:10.220
February so I can make sure I can handle this.

01:25:10.319 --> 01:25:12.060
And I remember going up there in February and

01:25:12.060 --> 01:25:16.199
whatever. And then that next, or January, and

01:25:16.199 --> 01:25:21.020
the next June I moved. And I left here and was

01:25:21.020 --> 01:25:24.359
there for four years. And that's when I started

01:25:24.359 --> 01:25:26.529
like writing songs. That's when I wrote. the

01:25:26.529 --> 01:25:29.090
first songs that I admit to writing today. And

01:25:29.090 --> 01:25:31.810
at that point, you're performing under the name

01:25:31.810 --> 01:25:35.550
Golden Sunchild? I'm just Wiley. Just Wiley Davey.

01:25:36.050 --> 01:25:37.949
I'm trying to figure it out. I'm just writing

01:25:37.949 --> 01:25:39.770
a couple of songs. I went to the Old Town School

01:25:39.770 --> 01:25:42.789
of Folk, their songwriting, some kind of songwriting

01:25:42.789 --> 01:25:44.590
workshop, and I was taking lessons, and I was

01:25:44.590 --> 01:25:47.590
trying to get serious. I met some musicians who

01:25:47.590 --> 01:25:51.590
were what I thought was older at the time, which

01:25:51.590 --> 01:25:54.859
was like babies now. But they were older musicians,

01:25:54.979 --> 01:25:57.220
some of them I had worked with at this publishing

01:25:57.220 --> 01:26:01.199
company, and they took me in a little bit, and

01:26:01.199 --> 01:26:03.760
they put me on stage and tried to encourage me,

01:26:03.800 --> 01:26:06.300
and I was still... And this was after you'd done

01:26:06.300 --> 01:26:09.359
the... This was in Chicago. Yeah, this was before

01:26:09.359 --> 01:26:11.439
New York. Before New York, okay. I'm just trying

01:26:11.439 --> 01:26:15.319
to... I know, I jumped. That's literally how

01:26:15.319 --> 01:26:18.600
this always goes. So don't worry. That's my job

01:26:18.600 --> 01:26:21.979
is just to keep it straight. If you have any

01:26:21.979 --> 01:26:24.920
questions. So you're in Chicago and you meet

01:26:24.920 --> 01:26:26.920
this group of older musicians. Yeah, I'm playing

01:26:26.920 --> 01:26:30.899
and doing stuff. But also just very half -assed.

01:26:31.300 --> 01:26:34.140
It was definitely a lot of the... I was like,

01:26:34.180 --> 01:26:38.180
I can sing. I can do country music. It was weird

01:26:38.180 --> 01:26:39.439
because I'm coming back to some of the singer

01:26:39.439 --> 01:26:44.350
-songwriter -y stuff and also not... maybe giving

01:26:44.350 --> 01:26:46.329
it the respect it deserved, even though I was

01:26:46.329 --> 01:26:51.109
dabbling in it. And also it was like being in

01:26:51.109 --> 01:26:53.590
your 20s, coming out, being 1 ,000 miles away

01:26:53.590 --> 01:26:56.189
from home, being in a big city. I had never spent

01:26:56.189 --> 01:26:58.630
any time in any big cities, so that was just

01:26:58.630 --> 01:27:02.310
like similar to New York afterward. It was just

01:27:02.310 --> 01:27:05.439
like mind -blowing, made a lot of... learned

01:27:05.439 --> 01:27:07.800
a lot of lessons but also like I was going there

01:27:07.800 --> 01:27:10.140
too I was like I'm going to become like an actor

01:27:10.140 --> 01:27:12.619
maybe I'll play some music on the side were you

01:27:12.619 --> 01:27:15.680
out at this point oh yeah fully but yeah basically

01:27:15.680 --> 01:27:19.920
like that freshman year there was like no turning

01:27:19.920 --> 01:27:21.659
back eventually it's also like we talked about

01:27:21.659 --> 01:27:24.300
it'd be a small town I'm going back for a second

01:27:24.300 --> 01:27:27.279
but I got an email one day when I was at FSU

01:27:27.279 --> 01:27:33.369
from my high school british lit teacher the english

01:27:33.369 --> 01:27:37.710
honors senior year redact that name but who i

01:27:37.710 --> 01:27:41.569
loved but also was very very on the side of christ

01:27:41.569 --> 01:27:45.409
and in a way that wasn't like really probably

01:27:45.409 --> 01:27:48.689
on the side of christ but god please save me

01:27:48.689 --> 01:27:51.430
from your followers and she was wonderful and

01:27:51.430 --> 01:27:53.710
very smart and she's lovely person i'm sure but

01:27:53.710 --> 01:27:56.090
she emailed me and she was just like and i actually

01:27:56.090 --> 01:27:58.710
appreciate her for doing it it wasn't a cruel

01:27:58.710 --> 01:28:02.250
thing it was like There are some rumors coming

01:28:02.250 --> 01:28:04.529
down the pike, and there's some talk here at

01:28:04.529 --> 01:28:07.869
the high school, and basically, like, word up

01:28:07.869 --> 01:28:09.569
on the street is that you're gay, and I wanted

01:28:09.569 --> 01:28:11.449
to be like, no shit, y 'all been telling me this

01:28:11.449 --> 01:28:13.890
for 17 fucking years, and now you're going to

01:28:13.890 --> 01:28:16.409
be like, did y 'all know that Wiley Gaby is gay?

01:28:16.970 --> 01:28:19.909
I'm like, yeah, it's a self -fulfilling prophecy,

01:28:20.189 --> 01:28:23.229
motherfuckers, but I, but so she warned me that

01:28:23.229 --> 01:28:27.329
if I, maybe that, if it was. getting around that,

01:28:27.329 --> 01:28:29.369
people would see me kissing boys and dancing

01:28:29.369 --> 01:28:33.850
at the gay bar, that maybe that I should tell

01:28:33.850 --> 01:28:36.970
my parents before they hear it from somebody

01:28:36.970 --> 01:28:41.270
else. I understand why you appreciate that email.

01:28:41.329 --> 01:28:44.010
That makes sense. Yeah. It was complicated at

01:28:44.010 --> 01:28:48.050
the time. Yeah. But also, I think that I appreciate

01:28:48.050 --> 01:28:51.550
what she said. And then all hell broke loose.

01:28:51.810 --> 01:28:55.750
Things are bad. Things are good. And that's...

01:28:56.159 --> 01:28:59.000
So then Chicago, I was like, Chicago was like,

01:28:59.060 --> 01:29:02.579
I already felt pretty comfortable being out here.

01:29:03.800 --> 01:29:05.520
Comfortable in the sense of like, this is who

01:29:05.520 --> 01:29:08.380
I am. Comfortable in your own skin, at least.

01:29:08.399 --> 01:29:11.819
More so than I had been. As much as you maybe

01:29:11.819 --> 01:29:19.100
ever are. I'm just speaking for myself. Project

01:29:19.100 --> 01:29:22.539
that right on. You're accurate. But yeah, it's.

01:29:23.730 --> 01:29:26.090
Chicago was just like, that was like full balls

01:29:26.090 --> 01:29:29.409
-out freedom because Chicago, right by Wrigley

01:29:29.409 --> 01:29:32.250
Field in Wrigleyville is Boys Town. You probably

01:29:32.250 --> 01:29:34.689
had watched Ferris Bueller's Day off a lot. Yeah,

01:29:34.789 --> 01:29:36.850
I'd seen that plenty of times. I didn't care.

01:29:36.930 --> 01:29:41.789
In my head, there is, in the north side of Chicago,

01:29:42.050 --> 01:29:47.010
starting at, I don't know, Belmont. 10, 14 blocks

01:29:47.010 --> 01:29:50.010
on Halstead that's, like, Boys Town. And it's,

01:29:50.029 --> 01:29:51.949
like, rainbow spires on every street corner.

01:29:52.109 --> 01:29:54.350
So I think it's, like, one of the first, like,

01:29:54.350 --> 01:29:57.090
gayborhoods that had, like, such a flagrant,

01:29:57.130 --> 01:29:59.789
like, out. There have been neighborhoods that

01:29:59.789 --> 01:30:03.529
are known for being queer or enclaves for gays.

01:30:03.890 --> 01:30:06.829
But this was, like, you know, out and proud.

01:30:06.949 --> 01:30:09.090
Boys Town. There's no hiding what it's about.

01:30:10.130 --> 01:30:12.869
And so that was, like, that was just the best

01:30:12.869 --> 01:30:14.489
thing. That was, like, that was where I was.

01:30:14.619 --> 01:30:17.079
I lived just north of there. I had my own apartment.

01:30:17.119 --> 01:30:20.180
It was like I had no one to answer to, no one

01:30:20.180 --> 01:30:23.560
that I would know. And this is the third largest

01:30:23.560 --> 01:30:25.960
city in the United States, and it's progressive,

01:30:26.039 --> 01:30:29.220
and there's gay people everywhere. And so that

01:30:29.220 --> 01:30:33.619
was like, that's where it felt like safe and

01:30:33.619 --> 01:30:37.699
secure in a way that it had never felt here at

01:30:37.699 --> 01:30:40.500
the time. Even when I felt my most secure, there's

01:30:40.500 --> 01:30:44.029
always like head on a swivel kind of vibe. like

01:30:44.029 --> 01:30:47.569
somebody especially like wakala you're like you

01:30:47.569 --> 01:30:50.850
just can't even now when i like yeah yeah i was

01:30:50.850 --> 01:30:54.109
gonna say has that changed really like what's

01:30:54.109 --> 01:30:57.949
changed is that everybody knows gay people you

01:30:57.949 --> 01:30:59.649
just can't escape it that's what's so nefarious

01:30:59.649 --> 01:31:02.810
about this goddamn anti -trans bullshit that

01:31:02.810 --> 01:31:05.649
they're trying to fluff everybody that they have

01:31:06.010 --> 01:31:07.770
frenzied everybody into it's like such a small

01:31:07.770 --> 01:31:10.109
percentage of the population and it's but it's

01:31:10.109 --> 01:31:12.930
also very effective in a nefarious cruel fucked

01:31:12.930 --> 01:31:17.609
up way because it's weirdly like to me sometimes

01:31:17.609 --> 01:31:21.810
not the anti -trans part a sign of progress in

01:31:21.810 --> 01:31:26.430
the other areas the L and the G specifically

01:31:26.430 --> 01:31:31.189
if you're like white cis male and fit into some

01:31:31.189 --> 01:31:33.970
kind of like heteronormative kind of thing and

01:31:33.970 --> 01:31:36.640
you don't like Don't get too queer. You don't

01:31:36.640 --> 01:31:40.140
get too gayed up. Everybody has members in their

01:31:40.140 --> 01:31:42.359
family. It's just unavoidable. Everybody's gone

01:31:42.359 --> 01:31:46.800
through that. But the people within the queer

01:31:46.800 --> 01:31:51.319
community, specifically cishet white dudes and

01:31:51.319 --> 01:31:59.680
others, are also not allies all the time to their

01:31:59.680 --> 01:32:02.279
trans people. They don't understand trans people.

01:32:02.359 --> 01:32:05.500
They don't want to be included in that. there's

01:32:05.500 --> 01:32:07.399
always been a thing with specifically gay men

01:32:07.399 --> 01:32:10.180
that like the moment somebody knows that you're

01:32:10.180 --> 01:32:12.460
a drag queen, even if you're, that's just like

01:32:12.460 --> 01:32:15.800
your job on the side, that that is, you just

01:32:15.800 --> 01:32:18.640
lost hot points, right? It's some kind of weird

01:32:18.640 --> 01:32:21.739
thing that like, it's such a, so less of a problem

01:32:21.739 --> 01:32:24.779
right now. I feel like it was definitely a bigger

01:32:24.779 --> 01:32:28.920
problem for. Like when you first went to New

01:32:28.920 --> 01:32:35.930
York and back in that. Even now, I would say

01:32:35.930 --> 01:32:39.369
there are plenty of people who are racist people

01:32:39.369 --> 01:32:43.289
or transphobic people or do things or say things

01:32:43.289 --> 01:32:48.449
that are transphobic or racist because, I don't

01:32:48.449 --> 01:32:50.369
know. I mean, there are gay men that hate women.

01:32:50.529 --> 01:32:52.430
Oh, yeah. That was my next part I was going to

01:32:52.430 --> 01:32:55.449
say. So all that stuff. That also goes into the

01:32:55.449 --> 01:33:00.899
drag queen. I mean, when I was younger, I was

01:33:00.899 --> 01:33:04.020
guilty of it too. Any femininity is seen as,

01:33:04.060 --> 01:33:05.939
even as a gay man. So it's like for years, like

01:33:05.939 --> 01:33:08.140
I tried, which might be hard for a lot of people

01:33:08.140 --> 01:33:11.159
to believe now, but there were parts of my life

01:33:11.159 --> 01:33:13.539
where it was like, I was trying to dial in the

01:33:13.539 --> 01:33:17.380
most like masculine version of myself, even as

01:33:17.380 --> 01:33:23.279
a, even as a out and proud, I was like, and because

01:33:23.279 --> 01:33:25.909
it's more attractive. I don't say that it's more

01:33:25.909 --> 01:33:27.869
attractive. I disagree with that statement. I'm

01:33:27.869 --> 01:33:29.069
saying that it's more attractive. It's considered

01:33:29.069 --> 01:33:34.510
that. Or it has been. Perceived as. Such a shift.

01:33:34.649 --> 01:33:36.270
And that's one of the things, I will say one

01:33:36.270 --> 01:33:37.710
of the greatest things about living in a place

01:33:37.710 --> 01:33:41.149
like New York for me is because I still am like,

01:33:41.289 --> 01:33:43.270
I say it with love, like redneck from Wakulla.

01:33:43.409 --> 01:33:47.590
Like I'm gay and I've traveled more so than maybe

01:33:47.590 --> 01:33:50.369
some other people that I grew up with. But I'm

01:33:50.369 --> 01:33:54.130
still like learning so, so much. if I wouldn't

01:33:54.130 --> 01:33:55.949
have been in Chicago, if I wouldn't have been

01:33:55.949 --> 01:33:59.069
in New York City, if I wouldn't have been around

01:33:59.069 --> 01:34:03.069
this diversity in all different ways, I don't

01:34:03.069 --> 01:34:04.869
know where I would be right now because I've

01:34:04.869 --> 01:34:07.350
fallen prey to many of these things. Sure, yeah.

01:34:07.350 --> 01:34:09.050
You have that light bulb that goes off in your

01:34:09.050 --> 01:34:11.569
head sometimes when you're just like, oh my God,

01:34:11.750 --> 01:34:14.210
that is misogyny that I've been perpetrating

01:34:14.210 --> 01:34:18.109
and being a part of. Or that joke was like, or

01:34:18.109 --> 01:34:21.229
this thing is, whatever I've been doing is like,

01:34:21.560 --> 01:34:24.960
Kind of fucked up or that, or, but also when

01:34:24.960 --> 01:34:26.560
you first, maybe when you first learn of something

01:34:26.560 --> 01:34:29.319
that you're like, that's, or when you first start

01:34:29.319 --> 01:34:31.359
understanding, I had like people that were so

01:34:31.359 --> 01:34:33.960
patient with me when I was trying to understand

01:34:33.960 --> 01:34:39.239
gender and sexuality. And why, why am I going

01:34:39.239 --> 01:34:41.720
to this conference? And why is this, how is this

01:34:41.720 --> 01:34:44.239
person? Wait, you said that this person was a

01:34:44.239 --> 01:34:51.020
biological, like one sex and now is. All the

01:34:51.020 --> 01:34:52.819
same questions that I feel like a lot of people

01:34:52.819 --> 01:34:55.720
are trying to wrap their heads around now. We've

01:34:55.720 --> 01:35:02.140
all had. I think the biggest combatant to hate

01:35:02.140 --> 01:35:08.260
is literally just knowing people of that group.

01:35:08.600 --> 01:35:10.920
You can't hate up close. Not only that, but you

01:35:10.920 --> 01:35:16.039
learn that no group of people is uniform. Except

01:35:16.039 --> 01:35:22.140
maybe... Yeah, I would say that. I tell a joke

01:35:22.140 --> 01:35:24.899
that I'm like, I'm a leftist, but there is one

01:35:24.899 --> 01:35:28.619
minority I fucking hate. But see, the thing about

01:35:28.619 --> 01:35:31.199
billionaires is they choose to be that. Exactly.

01:35:31.720 --> 01:35:35.140
When you're talking about a uniform, no group

01:35:35.140 --> 01:35:41.659
of people that isn't choosing to be that is uniform.

01:35:41.960 --> 01:35:44.359
That doesn't make any sense. People are people.

01:35:45.260 --> 01:35:48.539
But it goes back to what you're saying. The progress

01:35:48.539 --> 01:35:52.060
of everybody in their family, like kind of everybody

01:35:52.060 --> 01:35:55.020
having someone in their family to have that experience

01:35:55.020 --> 01:35:58.520
of exposure and getting to know and understanding,

01:35:58.600 --> 01:36:01.460
like more gay people were out. So more people

01:36:01.460 --> 01:36:07.020
knew they knew gay people. And like that. And

01:36:07.020 --> 01:36:11.119
then also once you combine just getting to know

01:36:11.119 --> 01:36:13.819
people that are different than you with recognizing

01:36:13.819 --> 01:36:18.079
that. Your landlord isn't fucking trans. Your

01:36:18.079 --> 01:36:22.340
boss isn't an illegal immigrant. The fucking

01:36:22.340 --> 01:36:29.039
CEO isn't some. It's just. Come on, guys. It

01:36:29.039 --> 01:36:32.840
is wild. But the brilliance of it is that big.

01:36:32.899 --> 01:36:37.039
So it's that age old kind of rung up the ladder

01:36:37.039 --> 01:36:39.659
kind of thing, too, where it's like they can

01:36:39.659 --> 01:36:44.880
say we are fine with LGB. We're fine with lesbians

01:36:44.880 --> 01:36:46.159
and gays. We've got some real good neighbors

01:36:46.159 --> 01:36:48.260
over there, and they come to church with us,

01:36:48.300 --> 01:36:51.020
and they do this, and they do that. I don't understand

01:36:51.020 --> 01:36:54.039
it, but whatever it is, that is the norm more

01:36:54.039 --> 01:36:57.420
now when it comes to, again, as long as you're

01:36:57.420 --> 01:37:01.800
fit. And now, like, we're... I'm not explaining

01:37:01.800 --> 01:37:04.319
that to you. I'm just, like, yapping. No, but

01:37:04.319 --> 01:37:06.279
I think you're bringing back the point you're

01:37:06.279 --> 01:37:08.979
trying to make, that even though there is still

01:37:08.979 --> 01:37:12.899
some really... heinous shit against certain groups

01:37:12.899 --> 01:37:17.819
of the LGBTQ plus community, there's progress

01:37:17.819 --> 01:37:20.739
in some of the letters. Some of the letters are

01:37:20.739 --> 01:37:24.899
accepted. We just gotta get the rest of it. That

01:37:24.899 --> 01:37:29.920
progress is slippery slope because now they can

01:37:29.920 --> 01:37:33.659
say, okay, we can't fuck with this. I'm not gonna

01:37:33.659 --> 01:37:38.359
come for... We might tell our fundamentalist

01:37:38.359 --> 01:37:40.510
people... in this pocket that we're gonna try

01:37:40.510 --> 01:37:43.449
to dissolve gay marriage but we're not trying

01:37:43.449 --> 01:37:45.710
to upset people we got gay people who are voting

01:37:45.710 --> 01:37:48.189
conservative now whatever the fuck it is but

01:37:48.189 --> 01:37:51.869
the fucked up thing is that they can get those

01:37:51.869 --> 01:37:55.729
gays right and then they can tell them you but

01:37:55.729 --> 01:37:57.689
not your trans friend right you but not your

01:37:57.689 --> 01:38:00.850
trans friend so they brought them into the fold

01:38:00.850 --> 01:38:04.430
the kind of heteronormative as long as they play

01:38:04.430 --> 01:38:07.760
a certain way yeah As long as they are a certain

01:38:07.760 --> 01:38:09.880
role. You behave yourself. You keep yourself

01:38:09.880 --> 01:38:12.760
within. You keep yourself small enough, quiet

01:38:12.760 --> 01:38:15.300
enough, professional enough, not so rowdy, whatever

01:38:15.300 --> 01:38:18.939
these rules are. And then you can stay and do

01:38:18.939 --> 01:38:21.859
whatever. And we just can't let, you know, we

01:38:21.859 --> 01:38:25.060
can't go. That's a bridge too far. And so people

01:38:25.060 --> 01:38:28.199
like become, oh. And I think it's great that

01:38:28.199 --> 01:38:30.439
we have progress, but that's what makes it so

01:38:30.439 --> 01:38:33.260
interesting and so calculated and so amazing

01:38:33.260 --> 01:38:35.359
that people don't understand the small, tiny

01:38:35.359 --> 01:38:40.779
pocket. Look at the ice agents. Oh, my God. They're

01:38:40.779 --> 01:38:44.539
like half of them are brown, but half of them

01:38:44.539 --> 01:38:47.100
are Hispanic. I see it. It's just devastating.

01:38:47.579 --> 01:38:50.880
Yeah. So I feel like we could talk about this

01:38:50.880 --> 01:38:55.180
kind of stuff all day, but I really want to hear

01:38:55.180 --> 01:39:00.699
more about. Your story. I think we've talked

01:39:00.699 --> 01:39:03.680
about it enough to where it's important to what

01:39:03.680 --> 01:39:07.420
you're trying to share. I just don't want us

01:39:07.420 --> 01:39:11.319
to go too far down the rabbit hole of talking

01:39:11.319 --> 01:39:13.420
about the state of it. One thing I like this

01:39:13.420 --> 01:39:16.079
podcast to be is something that will hopefully,

01:39:16.279 --> 01:39:19.119
if you listen to it in a year, if you listen

01:39:19.119 --> 01:39:22.529
to it in two years, it might be... There might

01:39:22.529 --> 01:39:24.390
be some references to stuff going on, but for

01:39:24.390 --> 01:39:27.670
the most part, it's pretty much... I love that.

01:39:27.670 --> 01:39:29.630
We're talking about stuff that already happened.

01:39:29.810 --> 01:39:34.189
Evergreen biography. As much as we can. I think,

01:39:34.210 --> 01:39:37.569
that being said, you can never separate what's

01:39:37.569 --> 01:39:39.449
going on in the moment from the way you're telling

01:39:39.449 --> 01:39:42.569
the story now, too. Sure. So I think it's important

01:39:42.569 --> 01:39:44.590
to acknowledge the context in which you're telling

01:39:44.590 --> 01:39:47.409
the story, not just the context in which the

01:39:47.409 --> 01:39:51.350
story happened. 100%. So you... You moved to

01:39:51.350 --> 01:39:55.289
New York. Well, like, what kind of drove you

01:39:55.289 --> 01:39:58.829
to New York out of Chicago? The cold. The cold,

01:39:59.010 --> 01:40:02.829
really? No, if it's as simple as that, then that's...

01:40:02.829 --> 01:40:06.970
It wasn't as simple as that. I had never been

01:40:06.970 --> 01:40:08.909
to New York. I'd been always petrified, like,

01:40:08.930 --> 01:40:11.390
a little bit to go, but always... Muppets Take

01:40:11.390 --> 01:40:12.829
Manhattan is one of my favorite films of all

01:40:12.829 --> 01:40:15.689
time. Me too. I love that movie. When it starts,

01:40:15.810 --> 01:40:18.670
like, the skyline, it shows the Chrysler building

01:40:18.670 --> 01:40:20.750
and everything, and, like... I had that on vinyl,

01:40:20.829 --> 01:40:22.729
actually. I still have a copy of it that's scratched

01:40:22.729 --> 01:40:25.909
to hell and back. Does it have the track where

01:40:25.909 --> 01:40:28.369
they're playing the song in the diner on the

01:40:28.369 --> 01:40:31.930
glasses with the spoon? I think so, yeah. Because

01:40:31.930 --> 01:40:34.930
that's the moment. That's such a great moment.

01:40:35.170 --> 01:40:36.569
The first time you get Riz and the Rat. The music

01:40:36.569 --> 01:40:39.710
is what brings Kermit back. Yeah. Anyway. Together

01:40:39.710 --> 01:40:44.729
again. I watched it so many times. I used to

01:40:44.729 --> 01:40:46.289
get so... With that tri -star horse that would

01:40:46.289 --> 01:40:48.430
come across the screen. We had that recorded

01:40:48.430 --> 01:40:52.119
on VHS. I love that movie so much. But that was

01:40:52.119 --> 01:40:56.319
my first, that was my New York first time being

01:40:56.319 --> 01:40:59.699
really in love with that. But I had never seen

01:40:59.699 --> 01:41:03.619
it and never understood its scale. And coming

01:41:03.619 --> 01:41:06.260
from Wakulla and a small town, our nearest neighbor

01:41:06.260 --> 01:41:08.060
was like a mile away and it was my grandma, right?

01:41:08.239 --> 01:41:10.060
Yeah, yeah. I grew up in the middle of the woods.

01:41:10.659 --> 01:41:13.819
So Chicago was big, but Chicago was also very

01:41:13.819 --> 01:41:16.220
manageable in a way. There's something that's...

01:41:16.590 --> 01:41:18.689
I say this with love, like it's a good thing,

01:41:18.750 --> 01:41:20.550
but there's something so Midwestern, provincial,

01:41:20.689 --> 01:41:23.729
something about Chicago that's so, it's very

01:41:23.729 --> 01:41:25.989
welcoming in a lot of ways. Did you have a similar

01:41:25.989 --> 01:41:28.810
kind of affinity towards it through movies like

01:41:28.810 --> 01:41:30.029
Ferris Bueller? No, no. Because we mentioned

01:41:30.029 --> 01:41:33.149
Ferris Bueller and Jess, but I think like Blues

01:41:33.149 --> 01:41:36.590
Brothers. I had, I feel like there's a very specific

01:41:36.590 --> 01:41:39.050
Chicago movie that I can't think of. Was it Mannequin

01:41:39.050 --> 01:41:40.989
Films? No, that was somewhere else. There was,

01:41:41.130 --> 01:41:45.880
I definitely had Chicago movies like. the Hughes

01:41:45.880 --> 01:41:49.899
films and stuff like that. Like I, but it was

01:41:49.899 --> 01:41:54.140
not like, it just wasn't like as strong of a

01:41:54.140 --> 01:41:57.539
transmit. There was something about, even though

01:41:57.539 --> 01:42:00.420
I was living in Chicago and it was a gay Mecca

01:42:00.420 --> 01:42:02.159
for me at the time, something about New York

01:42:02.159 --> 01:42:04.859
really screamed that something about the edginess.

01:42:04.899 --> 01:42:08.819
I've always been like, I think of like when I

01:42:08.819 --> 01:42:10.640
first started to get out of high school and met

01:42:10.640 --> 01:42:13.840
some, my first gay friend. he introduced me to

01:42:13.840 --> 01:42:16.640
a ton of great music and I remember Debbie Harry

01:42:16.640 --> 01:42:18.739
has always been like instant light instant just

01:42:18.739 --> 01:42:20.659
wow that's the most beautiful woman when I was

01:42:20.659 --> 01:42:23.020
younger that's the most beautiful woman she's

01:42:23.020 --> 01:42:26.020
so sexy she's so amazing she's so edgy her songs

01:42:26.020 --> 01:42:27.659
are so good but they're also it's like there

01:42:27.659 --> 01:42:29.699
was some amalgamation of that and that kind of

01:42:29.699 --> 01:42:32.239
like something about that gritty but like pretty

01:42:32.239 --> 01:42:34.800
and stylish thing I've always when even like

01:42:34.800 --> 01:42:37.319
back in Tallahassee I remember being like if

01:42:37.319 --> 01:42:39.380
you could wanted to mesmerize me by a person

01:42:39.380 --> 01:42:41.239
or something like that it's like being at some

01:42:41.239 --> 01:42:45.399
party where the older kids were at and there's

01:42:45.399 --> 01:42:47.439
some, I guess we would call them hipsters, but

01:42:47.439 --> 01:42:50.140
somebody like standing, going to Railroad Square

01:42:50.140 --> 01:42:52.760
back in the day and like seeing somebody who

01:42:52.760 --> 01:42:55.420
looked like, I would, I don't know what we used

01:42:55.420 --> 01:42:57.140
to call them. I'd be calling them like, I look

01:42:57.140 --> 01:43:00.119
so indie or some stupid shit like that. No, maybe.

01:43:00.300 --> 01:43:04.220
Yeah, but. Goth or. That kind of, somebody who

01:43:04.220 --> 01:43:05.579
had their own kind of style that was something

01:43:05.579 --> 01:43:08.649
different. Tattoos and. Jagged hair, whatever

01:43:08.649 --> 01:43:10.069
it was. I think you're touching on something

01:43:10.069 --> 01:43:12.170
that's interesting about Tallahassee and probably

01:43:12.170 --> 01:43:15.090
a lot of cities of its size is I don't know that

01:43:15.090 --> 01:43:19.250
we had enough of the weirdos to really have denominations

01:43:19.250 --> 01:43:22.170
of weirdos. Right? They all were together. It's

01:43:22.170 --> 01:43:25.069
like the freaks and the punks and the goths and

01:43:25.069 --> 01:43:27.850
the hipsters. The epitome. They were all hanging

01:43:27.850 --> 01:43:31.289
out at epitome. All together. That's where I

01:43:31.289 --> 01:43:32.949
met some of the... That was one of the first

01:43:32.949 --> 01:43:35.090
places the epitome was like... Actually, that's

01:43:35.090 --> 01:43:36.789
where I first played... That's where I first

01:43:36.789 --> 01:43:39.250
played music with a guitar, like, writing my

01:43:39.250 --> 01:43:41.390
own songs. The first time was an Epitome open

01:43:41.390 --> 01:43:44.529
mic. I can't, like, that just... Anyway, I know

01:43:44.529 --> 01:43:47.810
we're past that. No, I can't. Now I just want

01:43:47.810 --> 01:43:49.810
one of their mocha milkshakes. Oh, my God. I

01:43:49.810 --> 01:43:52.810
would go smoke Camel Red Lights and the Epitome

01:43:52.810 --> 01:43:54.409
on the smoking section. We used to call that

01:43:54.409 --> 01:43:57.250
an orgasm in a glass. Oh, my God. Oh, my gosh.

01:43:57.329 --> 01:43:59.550
Shout out to the Epitome mocha milkshake. We

01:43:59.550 --> 01:44:04.229
love you, Epitome. So I worked next door at Floyd's

01:44:04.229 --> 01:44:07.180
as a teenager. That was my first job was at Floyd's

01:44:07.180 --> 01:44:11.659
Music Store. Legends. Yeah, it was crazy. I remember

01:44:11.659 --> 01:44:16.180
carrying Vince Neil's guitars and Gwar's costumes

01:44:16.180 --> 01:44:18.880
and shit. It was fucking bizarre. But then we

01:44:18.880 --> 01:44:22.180
would also get these one -off. Kenny Chesney

01:44:22.180 --> 01:44:25.880
would stop and do a one -off club date on his

01:44:25.880 --> 01:44:28.439
arena tour. He'd do an acoustic club date at

01:44:28.439 --> 01:44:32.820
Floyd's. Kenny Chesney. On his arena tours. Wow.

01:44:32.820 --> 01:44:35.340
That's so crazy. What a cool spot to work and

01:44:35.340 --> 01:44:38.520
get to be around at that time. It was wild. It

01:44:38.520 --> 01:44:43.760
was otherworldly. But I've never, beyond being

01:44:43.760 --> 01:44:46.420
in a boy's ensemble or choir or whatever, I'm

01:44:46.420 --> 01:44:50.060
not musically inclined. Part of it, and one thing

01:44:50.060 --> 01:44:51.840
we've talked about on this podcast a lot, is

01:44:51.840 --> 01:44:55.899
you have to really want to do it, too. And I've

01:44:55.899 --> 01:44:58.359
never... like what you were saying earlier like

01:44:58.359 --> 01:45:00.560
things that were like easy for you right away

01:45:00.560 --> 01:45:02.979
were things that you always were like that same

01:45:02.979 --> 01:45:07.220
way and music was never easy other than just

01:45:07.220 --> 01:45:09.600
singing along or whatever music was never easy

01:45:09.600 --> 01:45:12.500
for me and i never could like i tried guitar

01:45:12.500 --> 01:45:17.899
lessons and things like that but never when it

01:45:17.899 --> 01:45:19.859
came down to it i didn't want it bad enough to

01:45:19.859 --> 01:45:22.579
put in the practice or whatever i could understand

01:45:22.579 --> 01:45:24.579
that there have been times when i have not wanted

01:45:24.579 --> 01:45:30.359
it bad enough to put in the time. I struggle

01:45:30.359 --> 01:45:34.380
with that even now, of being like where I maybe

01:45:34.380 --> 01:45:37.100
wish I was in various parts of my life and think

01:45:37.100 --> 01:45:40.140
to myself, maybe one of the reasons I didn't

01:45:40.140 --> 01:45:42.420
get there or where I wanted to be at a certain

01:45:42.420 --> 01:45:46.859
point is you have to put in the time. I don't

01:45:46.859 --> 01:45:49.880
think I've seen how important that is, especially

01:45:49.880 --> 01:45:53.880
in music, until a lot of us, or I can't speak

01:45:53.880 --> 01:45:56.819
for a lot of us. a lot of times in my life i

01:45:56.819 --> 01:45:59.479
have thought i have this great song and i have

01:45:59.479 --> 01:46:01.819
a decent voice and i can do this and i know i

01:46:01.819 --> 01:46:03.680
can entertain these people and just somebody's

01:46:03.680 --> 01:46:07.020
gotta find this out right yeah and i'll be discovered

01:46:07.020 --> 01:46:10.300
and it'll all just work out and what on the upside

01:46:10.300 --> 01:46:12.300
it is i think it's easier to find your audience

01:46:12.300 --> 01:46:14.520
than it's ever been right sure but it's also

01:46:14.520 --> 01:46:18.810
harder it's hard yeah i mean It's like more possible.

01:46:19.449 --> 01:46:22.010
Yeah, it's real tricky. Let me ask you this.

01:46:22.090 --> 01:46:24.250
Were you still wanting to be an actor when you

01:46:24.250 --> 01:46:28.489
moved to New York? No, I had set that. I burned

01:46:28.489 --> 01:46:34.409
that down. I just didn't. I found when I was

01:46:34.409 --> 01:46:36.590
in Chicago trying to do some Second City stuff

01:46:36.590 --> 01:46:39.689
that I had fun with it, but I didn't. The theater

01:46:39.689 --> 01:46:43.109
school of it all was a lot for me. There is.

01:46:43.970 --> 01:46:47.409
It's competitive, and it's not always very welcoming,

01:46:47.430 --> 01:46:52.109
and it feels extra and cutthroat sometimes. When

01:46:52.109 --> 01:46:55.449
I was younger, I didn't enjoy, I didn't find,

01:46:55.649 --> 01:46:58.090
let me say, how do I say this? I did not feel

01:46:58.090 --> 01:47:01.680
like I belonged as part of the community. I didn't

01:47:01.680 --> 01:47:03.640
feel... And that could be... I see. Like in the

01:47:03.640 --> 01:47:05.500
theater community? Yeah, I just felt... I was

01:47:05.500 --> 01:47:07.100
like, this doesn't feel right to me. And I also

01:47:07.100 --> 01:47:09.239
don't feel like I trust these people. And it's

01:47:09.239 --> 01:47:10.840
no disrespect to anybody. It's more of my own

01:47:10.840 --> 01:47:13.039
insecurities than anything at the time. No, but

01:47:13.039 --> 01:47:18.960
I... And what strikes me is it sounds like you

01:47:18.960 --> 01:47:22.199
were first drawn to it because you felt you could

01:47:22.199 --> 01:47:25.979
trust these people and you could relate to them

01:47:25.979 --> 01:47:28.819
and they were maybe a safe haven for... And it

01:47:28.819 --> 01:47:32.390
almost seems like... once you were your were

01:47:32.390 --> 01:47:35.130
out once you had like figured out who you were

01:47:35.130 --> 01:47:37.109
and were comfortable more comfortable in your

01:47:37.109 --> 01:47:41.649
own skin maybe like the rest of it wasn't like

01:47:41.649 --> 01:47:45.010
what was left for you wasn't yeah that appealing

01:47:45.010 --> 01:47:47.630
anymore it wasn't it wasn't but also yeah i just

01:47:47.630 --> 01:47:49.300
remember This is going to sound so pathetic because

01:47:49.300 --> 01:47:51.220
I don't hang on to this in terms of does it make

01:47:51.220 --> 01:47:52.899
me feel bad, but it made me feel really bad at

01:47:52.899 --> 01:47:54.579
the time. I was doing a play at Tallahassee Little

01:47:54.579 --> 01:47:56.020
Theater. It was probably one of the last plays

01:47:56.020 --> 01:47:58.279
I did, and it was like I was the lead, and I

01:47:58.279 --> 01:48:01.460
was having so much fun. Katie Sharver wrote me

01:48:01.460 --> 01:48:03.359
this. It was my first time I ever got reviewed.

01:48:03.479 --> 01:48:07.439
It was glowing. I was so proud, and I was having

01:48:07.439 --> 01:48:11.659
such a great time. And two of my castmates, both

01:48:11.659 --> 01:48:14.260
of them who are amazing actors and were really

01:48:14.260 --> 01:48:16.640
good, and they were a little more darlings of...

01:48:16.970 --> 01:48:20.050
the crew that I was I think they both wanted

01:48:20.050 --> 01:48:22.970
the part that I got so that was one part of it

01:48:22.970 --> 01:48:25.810
and I think that was like and maybe it was just

01:48:25.810 --> 01:48:28.649
all like unintended stuff but I remember right

01:48:28.649 --> 01:48:31.310
before we were going on for like the opening

01:48:31.310 --> 01:48:33.350
night and I was just like sorry it was like at

01:48:33.350 --> 01:48:35.210
that point I thought I was famous right because

01:48:35.210 --> 01:48:37.470
I hadn't even left Tallahassee and I had gotten

01:48:37.470 --> 01:48:39.409
a good review and I was in the Democrat limelight

01:48:39.409 --> 01:48:41.750
Big Fish Small Pond exactly that's the story

01:48:41.750 --> 01:48:43.850
and it was really hard because coming from what

01:48:43.850 --> 01:48:47.109
color where I was Big Fish Small Pond It took

01:48:47.109 --> 01:48:49.810
me years in Tallahassee. I felt like I really

01:48:49.810 --> 01:48:51.369
had to fight to even get to that point because

01:48:51.369 --> 01:48:53.989
I felt like I got to Tallahassee. You go to FSU,

01:48:54.130 --> 01:48:55.430
especially at the time, theater school, music

01:48:55.430 --> 01:48:57.069
school, those are the best singers and actors

01:48:57.069 --> 01:49:00.289
I've seen. So talented. Yeah, I've seen some

01:49:00.289 --> 01:49:01.789
incredible shows. Some of the best shows I've

01:49:01.789 --> 01:49:04.789
ever seen. I have seen more great shows back

01:49:04.789 --> 01:49:06.989
in the day at FSU than I have on Broadway that

01:49:06.989 --> 01:49:11.369
I've paid too much money to see. But right before

01:49:11.369 --> 01:49:14.449
one of these guys, they were giving me a... break

01:49:14.449 --> 01:49:16.590
a leg kind of like let's do a thing and then

01:49:16.590 --> 01:49:17.970
they were just like one of them said something

01:49:17.970 --> 01:49:21.670
to me like for me and Derek this is we're actually

01:49:21.670 --> 01:49:25.550
like planning to do this for a living like some

01:49:25.550 --> 01:49:29.550
kind of comment he said was like definitely intended

01:49:29.550 --> 01:49:33.689
to be a dick move but also and to rock my game

01:49:33.689 --> 01:49:37.630
or whatever but it was like shit like that where

01:49:37.630 --> 01:49:41.090
people are trying to get in your head so you

01:49:41.090 --> 01:49:46.069
don't do well I know that I don't think either

01:49:46.069 --> 01:49:47.470
of these people would do this today and neither

01:49:47.470 --> 01:49:50.189
of them would think anything of it. But the fact

01:49:50.189 --> 01:49:51.029
that you would do that to somebody that you're

01:49:51.029 --> 01:49:53.909
also like in the production with. Right. So you're

01:49:53.909 --> 01:49:57.409
willing to sabotage your own situation because

01:49:57.409 --> 01:49:59.829
somebody got the role and they're doing good

01:49:59.829 --> 01:50:03.069
at it and they're getting praise for it. And

01:50:03.069 --> 01:50:04.869
so you think that it's a good idea. So that kind

01:50:04.869 --> 01:50:08.430
of behavior doesn't, I'm sure it exists in music.

01:50:08.920 --> 01:50:10.760
plenty of places it definitely exists in comedy

01:50:10.760 --> 01:50:12.819
yeah i'm sure it does i'm sure like probably

01:50:12.819 --> 01:50:16.939
more than i've seen in other communities sometimes

01:50:16.939 --> 01:50:20.479
i can see that yeah just sometimes i think partially

01:50:20.479 --> 01:50:24.619
because it's it is like it's a solo thing yeah

01:50:24.619 --> 01:50:29.420
in hair like completely and everybody is in it

01:50:29.420 --> 01:50:32.340
for themselves and everybody thinks that they're

01:50:32.340 --> 01:50:34.399
the funniest or they'd be writing the jokes that

01:50:34.399 --> 01:50:35.899
the other people are telling you know what i

01:50:35.899 --> 01:50:41.770
mean like Were you trying to pursue anything

01:50:41.770 --> 01:50:45.170
when you moved to New York? In my head, I was

01:50:45.170 --> 01:50:48.590
going to pursue music. You were scared. I was

01:50:48.590 --> 01:50:51.750
scared. And also, I had gone back and forth.

01:50:51.789 --> 01:50:54.430
I was bartending, and then I was working, and

01:50:54.430 --> 01:50:56.710
I got pulled into a publishing job. And I was

01:50:56.710 --> 01:50:58.369
like, oh, I'll do this publishing thing, and

01:50:58.369 --> 01:51:00.170
maybe I won't worry about music anymore or theater

01:51:00.170 --> 01:51:02.850
or anything like that. Maybe I'll be a real guy,

01:51:02.989 --> 01:51:04.510
do a real job, whatever the fuck that means.

01:51:05.210 --> 01:51:08.100
And it's funny because... I wish I could go back

01:51:08.100 --> 01:51:10.479
and tell myself different, but you start to get

01:51:10.479 --> 01:51:12.579
a certain age. You're like, Oh God, I'm 24 now.

01:51:12.779 --> 01:51:15.640
I probably should like give up this dream. I

01:51:15.640 --> 01:51:17.699
got to get this. It was the opposite for me.

01:51:17.899 --> 01:51:21.939
I was a young dad and it wasn't until like my

01:51:21.939 --> 01:51:24.359
kid was an adult pretty much that I was like,

01:51:24.420 --> 01:51:26.739
Oh, now I'm going to, now I'm going to do this

01:51:26.739 --> 01:51:29.920
shit that I've always wanted to do. And, but

01:51:29.920 --> 01:51:33.460
I understand what you mean. Cause it's, I still

01:51:33.460 --> 01:51:36.119
like my clock's ticking. I feel the same way.

01:51:36.159 --> 01:51:39.439
How old is your son? My daughter, she's 18. Yeah.

01:51:39.920 --> 01:51:43.960
But, yeah, it's, like, at this point, and I don't

01:51:43.960 --> 01:51:46.199
really talk about her on here. Sorry. No, that's

01:51:46.199 --> 01:51:51.479
fine. I'm just saying. It wasn't until, like,

01:51:51.500 --> 01:51:56.140
I was, like, I played that game of, okay, I got

01:51:56.140 --> 01:51:58.960
to get the real, do the responsible thing for

01:51:58.960 --> 01:52:02.840
all this time. And it was. the opposite for me

01:52:02.840 --> 01:52:06.199
once i didn't have to do it anymore or didn't

01:52:06.199 --> 01:52:11.359
feel like i like it was too risky to do what

01:52:11.359 --> 01:52:13.500
i really wanted to do i was like all right i'm

01:52:13.500 --> 01:52:17.479
gonna you know this is you only live once this

01:52:17.479 --> 01:52:20.119
is my only life that's where i am right now yeah

01:52:20.119 --> 01:52:25.159
and i think once you get there no matter how

01:52:25.159 --> 01:52:27.859
you get there like that's when you set yourself

01:52:27.859 --> 01:52:34.590
free yeah i hope so My question is, when you

01:52:34.590 --> 01:52:37.289
started writing songs with frequency, with a

01:52:37.289 --> 01:52:41.609
regular basis, did you find that outlet start

01:52:41.609 --> 01:52:45.170
to calm some of the other stuff in your life?

01:52:45.850 --> 01:52:47.630
Yeah, it's taken a long way for it to get to

01:52:47.630 --> 01:52:49.550
that point. When I first started writing songs,

01:52:49.729 --> 01:52:52.789
it was not about processing things for me as

01:52:52.789 --> 01:52:57.149
much as it is now. I think that I wanted to...

01:52:57.149 --> 01:53:00.010
I cared about the songs, and I cared about...

01:53:00.409 --> 01:53:02.329
what i was writing about to a certain degree

01:53:02.329 --> 01:53:05.270
but i was definitely i wanted to do a good job

01:53:05.270 --> 01:53:08.289
and to have somebody tell me i did a good job

01:53:08.289 --> 01:53:11.770
probably it's like at its most basic like i mean

01:53:11.770 --> 01:53:13.829
i feel like the baseball story like there may

01:53:13.829 --> 01:53:17.029
be something to the right we got lots of stories

01:53:17.029 --> 01:53:21.670
for it but i i i was writing songs for other

01:53:21.670 --> 01:53:24.560
people for a while not literally but I was like,

01:53:24.600 --> 01:53:27.439
how do I make this cool? How do I make this...

01:53:27.439 --> 01:53:31.659
I see what you mean. Creating for the approval.

01:53:32.600 --> 01:53:35.319
You were writing stuff you thought other people

01:53:35.319 --> 01:53:39.319
would like. Not stuff for yourself. Exactly.

01:53:39.720 --> 01:53:43.920
And ironically, most of that stuff is... That's

01:53:43.920 --> 01:53:45.779
not entirely true, but that definitely colored

01:53:45.779 --> 01:53:48.600
the experience more than it does now. Whereas,

01:53:49.180 --> 01:53:53.060
especially with these new songs... I've written,

01:53:53.100 --> 01:53:58.460
I feel like they have, it's about stuff that

01:53:58.460 --> 01:54:01.439
is heavy on my heart that I need to say that

01:54:01.439 --> 01:54:03.300
I don't know how to say in a conversation or

01:54:03.300 --> 01:54:05.300
that I am unable to say in a conversation or

01:54:05.300 --> 01:54:09.000
that just it's too much for my emotional life

01:54:09.000 --> 01:54:14.000
to be able to handle it a normal way. So then

01:54:14.000 --> 01:54:17.239
I could get that out and just tell the truth

01:54:17.239 --> 01:54:18.800
and not, and just be like, you know what? And

01:54:18.800 --> 01:54:22.300
also choose for me, not. What makes me happy?

01:54:22.340 --> 01:54:27.939
What do I like? Instead of trying to craft. You

01:54:27.939 --> 01:54:29.439
can see the work sometimes when you look back

01:54:29.439 --> 01:54:31.859
at some of the stuff that you do. I know I can

01:54:31.859 --> 01:54:34.359
with my work. When I look back at songs, whether

01:54:34.359 --> 01:54:35.880
I've recorded them or it's the lyric that I've

01:54:35.880 --> 01:54:38.399
written, I look back and I'm like, oh my God,

01:54:38.420 --> 01:54:42.159
that's actually pretty good or nice try. We must

01:54:42.159 --> 01:54:44.859
use flowery language or like this. I have to

01:54:44.859 --> 01:54:47.140
find some kind of interesting wordplay here.

01:54:47.600 --> 01:54:50.640
And when really honestly like the simple truth

01:54:50.640 --> 01:54:55.859
is fine. And frequently what I found that resonates

01:54:55.859 --> 01:55:00.600
more with me when I'm writing is like sometimes

01:55:00.600 --> 01:55:02.600
the most simple stuff. I don't give a fuck is

01:55:02.600 --> 01:55:05.819
that song came out like one of the fastest songs

01:55:05.819 --> 01:55:07.739
that's ever come out of me. In fact, the point

01:55:07.739 --> 01:55:09.220
where I didn't really feel like I had earned

01:55:09.220 --> 01:55:11.710
it and I didn't think that. I was like, I don't

01:55:11.710 --> 01:55:13.710
know if it's even good. It feels like it's just

01:55:13.710 --> 01:55:20.550
some whatever. But it was like just riding through

01:55:20.550 --> 01:55:25.430
the aftermath of a conversation. I don't give

01:55:25.430 --> 01:55:27.529
a fuck. Streaming on all platforms this Friday.

01:55:28.130 --> 01:55:31.390
Thank you so much. On Dial Back Sound. On Dial

01:55:31.390 --> 01:55:36.850
Back Sound. So you're in New York. I feel like

01:55:36.850 --> 01:55:39.479
I... here's where we are in the story you're

01:55:39.479 --> 01:55:43.579
in new york you find the queer yeah country the

01:55:43.579 --> 01:55:47.039
queer country community i like the alliteration

01:55:47.039 --> 01:55:52.340
there he's a the qcc man if they're not using

01:55:52.340 --> 01:55:55.779
that they definitely you're welcome thank you

01:55:55.779 --> 01:55:59.039
so much but it sounds like that's when you were

01:55:59.039 --> 01:56:02.539
like your fear went away right because you started

01:56:02.539 --> 01:56:05.350
yeah yeah or started or That was the catalyst.

01:56:05.529 --> 01:56:09.729
That was the real turning point for me. It became

01:56:09.729 --> 01:56:15.890
something that started to crystallize to me what

01:56:15.890 --> 01:56:19.909
I could do, what I wanted to do, what was possible,

01:56:20.010 --> 01:56:22.510
and that maybe I had found some people. It sounds

01:56:22.510 --> 01:56:26.010
like you found a way to be yourself. Yeah. Because

01:56:26.010 --> 01:56:30.329
this is the story I've heard so far. You have

01:56:30.329 --> 01:56:34.500
these two kind of identities that are... constantly

01:56:34.500 --> 01:56:38.560
put against each other sure being this rural

01:56:38.560 --> 01:56:44.619
red redneck town boy and queer as hell yeah and

01:56:44.619 --> 01:56:47.100
they're those things are at odds yeah until you

01:56:47.100 --> 01:56:49.560
find this community in new york yeah absolutely

01:56:49.560 --> 01:56:52.640
and also what was so cool about it is not just

01:56:52.640 --> 01:56:54.439
because it's like this queer country thing right

01:56:54.439 --> 01:56:57.840
but like also that i get to be in new york and

01:56:57.840 --> 01:57:03.869
in brooklyn and i can pull out a song that Maybe

01:57:03.869 --> 01:57:06.189
I'm singing some old George Jones song that my

01:57:06.189 --> 01:57:09.329
dad used to love to hear me sing, and I can play

01:57:09.329 --> 01:57:12.890
it here, and these people also love it and know

01:57:12.890 --> 01:57:15.250
the song and remember and had the same experience.

01:57:15.430 --> 01:57:17.670
And that's what I mean. All aspects of your identity

01:57:17.670 --> 01:57:20.350
are being embraced in this community for the

01:57:20.350 --> 01:57:26.510
first time. Yeah, and it's really exciting. And

01:57:26.510 --> 01:57:29.859
because it was the first show. First off, in

01:57:29.859 --> 01:57:31.319
New York, it is hard to get people to come to

01:57:31.319 --> 01:57:33.659
shit. So it's easy to get people to come to the

01:57:33.659 --> 01:57:35.300
first thing you do if you've never done something.

01:57:35.420 --> 01:57:38.760
Sometimes I got a bunch of friends to come. They

01:57:38.760 --> 01:57:40.159
all were really supportive. And so I was like,

01:57:40.180 --> 01:57:42.720
now look at this. I'm the singer now. I'm a singer

01:57:42.720 --> 01:57:45.340
songwriter. And I'm like, and so like. What I

01:57:45.340 --> 01:57:47.600
realized very quickly is you have to learn like

01:57:47.600 --> 01:57:50.800
your, your friends are, you can't rely on them

01:57:50.800 --> 01:57:54.250
because. Burn them out. Not only that. If you're

01:57:54.250 --> 01:57:56.710
going to do what you want to do for real, your

01:57:56.710 --> 01:58:00.029
friends can't be the ones that carry you. 100%.

01:58:00.029 --> 01:58:03.270
They can support you and all that, but once you

01:58:03.270 --> 01:58:06.210
perform five times a month in the same city or

01:58:06.210 --> 01:58:09.489
five times a week or whatever, you're like, no,

01:58:09.609 --> 01:58:12.489
dude, I don't expect you to be there. 100%. And

01:58:12.489 --> 01:58:15.449
not only that, I can't rely on you to be. I need

01:58:15.449 --> 01:58:18.789
to be focused on getting other people that have

01:58:18.789 --> 01:58:23.560
no fucking clue who I am. Absolutely. And you

01:58:23.560 --> 01:58:26.640
have no stakes in it. No skin in the game. You

01:58:26.640 --> 01:58:31.319
don't have to be worried about me in a different

01:58:31.319 --> 01:58:33.539
way. Is this song about me? Right, exactly. Or

01:58:33.539 --> 01:58:36.460
are they going to fuck this up? Are they ready?

01:58:37.020 --> 01:58:40.659
Whatever it is, is he going to crack a note?

01:58:41.539 --> 01:58:43.960
You date somebody and you meet somebody and you're

01:58:43.960 --> 01:58:46.020
like, I'm a singer -songwriter. And then they

01:58:46.020 --> 01:58:48.930
come out to a show. They're like, oh, God. I'm

01:58:48.930 --> 01:58:51.010
sure it sounds good, but then they also, more

01:58:51.010 --> 01:58:53.729
frequently, I think, before they see you, they're

01:58:53.729 --> 01:58:55.630
like, oh, God, what if they suck? I'd almost

01:58:55.630 --> 01:58:59.250
like that to be my first date. I always say.

01:58:59.250 --> 01:59:01.869
In a way. I'm going to meet the man of my dreams.

01:59:01.930 --> 01:59:05.810
He's going to see me doing, he's going to, it's

01:59:05.810 --> 01:59:07.970
going to happen, like, me doing, I'd rather him

01:59:07.970 --> 01:59:10.729
come to a show, see me doing what I do, and then

01:59:10.729 --> 01:59:13.470
talk to me than the other way around. Or even

01:59:13.470 --> 01:59:16.189
if I, like, meet somebody on a dating app or

01:59:16.189 --> 01:59:18.850
something, I'm like. I might suggest you come

01:59:18.850 --> 01:59:21.750
see me. Because then they can, if they hate what

01:59:21.750 --> 01:59:23.670
I'm doing. They can walk away. I don't never

01:59:23.670 --> 01:59:26.229
have to even know they were there. That was smart.

01:59:26.989 --> 01:59:31.510
You got a lot of good ideas. For all you single

01:59:31.510 --> 01:59:34.170
musicians out there. What's terrible, though,

01:59:34.229 --> 01:59:37.850
is I'm terrible at following my own advice. I

01:59:37.850 --> 01:59:40.029
think a lot of us have that problem. I definitely

01:59:40.029 --> 01:59:43.199
do. I definitely do. I know a big part of your

01:59:43.199 --> 01:59:46.220
story is reconnecting with Teresa, who you briefly

01:59:46.220 --> 01:59:49.699
mentioned earlier in New York. Teresa Jimenez

01:59:49.699 --> 01:59:54.159
was in Tallahassee for a good chunk of my college

01:59:54.159 --> 01:59:56.939
years playing in a band called the Silver Daggers.

01:59:57.100 --> 01:59:59.359
Absolutely. That I used to go see all the time.

01:59:59.899 --> 02:00:02.680
I still, when I'm driving to Sob Shoppy, I'll

02:00:02.680 --> 02:00:04.560
put that record on and listen to Sob Shoppy River.

02:00:04.920 --> 02:00:08.600
Oh, good. So good. I still have that CD. All

02:00:08.600 --> 02:00:12.039
for the money. And I remember when Dave. Broke

02:00:12.039 --> 02:00:14.819
his arm. Oh, yeah. And he played a bunch of shows

02:00:14.819 --> 02:00:16.920
one -armed. We were probably in a bunch of shows.

02:00:17.520 --> 02:00:21.939
It's such a small world. But you reconnect with

02:00:21.939 --> 02:00:26.279
it. She moved to Brooklyn, and I'm like, to me,

02:00:26.399 --> 02:00:30.319
my side of this story is like, well, the final

02:00:30.319 --> 02:00:32.960
nail in the coffin of the music scene in Tallahassee.

02:00:33.380 --> 02:00:37.119
Because at that point, venues are closing left

02:00:37.119 --> 02:00:40.800
and right. Everybody's just doing cover songs,

02:00:41.300 --> 02:00:43.399
and not only that, they're just doing covers

02:00:43.399 --> 02:00:45.739
of stuff you could hear at karaoke any night

02:00:45.739 --> 02:00:49.079
of the week. 100%. There wasn't much going on.

02:00:49.779 --> 02:00:51.960
And Dave was actually in this other band called

02:00:51.960 --> 02:00:55.659
Me and the Devil. Yes, yeah. But that band moved,

02:00:55.939 --> 02:00:59.500
Silver Daggers moved, and I'm like, fuck. But

02:00:59.500 --> 02:01:03.100
the other side of that story is you get Teresa

02:01:03.100 --> 02:01:08.119
in New York. We met in high school. production

02:01:08.119 --> 02:01:09.579
of The Wizard of Oz at Leon High School here

02:01:09.579 --> 02:01:11.359
in Tallahassee. You were the lion and she was

02:01:11.359 --> 02:01:17.600
Dorothy. Absolutely. And so we met. I was enamored

02:01:17.600 --> 02:01:21.079
of her. We got along really well. Her voice is

02:01:21.079 --> 02:01:24.819
just otherworldly. Best singer I know. And her

02:01:24.819 --> 02:01:29.859
presence. And now I met her when she was years

02:01:29.859 --> 02:01:33.159
later when she had developed all this stuff as

02:01:33.159 --> 02:01:36.600
a solo artist. a front person of a band, right?

02:01:36.659 --> 02:01:39.380
It's magnificent to watch. Magnetic too. Like

02:01:39.380 --> 02:01:42.800
you can't take your eyes off of that. Yeah. I

02:01:42.800 --> 02:01:44.279
say all the time, I just get goosebumps because

02:01:44.279 --> 02:01:49.420
it's like, it is, it is, it is, it's, I don't

02:01:49.420 --> 02:01:53.199
know. I don't know anybody. I don't think personally,

02:01:53.260 --> 02:01:56.880
definitely not that well who has what she has

02:01:56.880 --> 02:02:00.630
and can do what she does. It is. It's just magnificent.

02:02:00.789 --> 02:02:04.289
When I met her, she was a freshman in high school.

02:02:04.430 --> 02:02:08.170
She pissed everyone off, I'm sure, because she

02:02:08.170 --> 02:02:10.069
came in and got the lead role. It was just so

02:02:10.069 --> 02:02:14.909
good. It was just a perfect voice at that age.

02:02:15.989 --> 02:02:18.789
And I was a senior at the time, so it was like

02:02:18.789 --> 02:02:20.710
I was feeling good. I had come from Wakulla and

02:02:20.710 --> 02:02:23.970
got cast as a lead of Leon with the big dogs.

02:02:24.569 --> 02:02:27.189
Yeah, yeah. And so that meant a lot to me. People

02:02:27.189 --> 02:02:29.979
had always welcomed me. It was a big deal for

02:02:29.979 --> 02:02:32.439
me. I'd never been in a musical before that was

02:02:32.439 --> 02:02:35.460
real because McCullough didn't have the people

02:02:35.460 --> 02:02:38.859
to do it. That was the first real musical I'd

02:02:38.859 --> 02:02:41.619
ever done. When Leon put on, they would have

02:02:41.619 --> 02:02:43.899
summer productions. That was the summer, yeah.

02:02:43.939 --> 02:02:45.619
Because anybody could audition for the summer

02:02:45.619 --> 02:02:48.000
one. And that year it was at TCC because they

02:02:48.000 --> 02:02:49.779
were renovating. I went out for South Pacific

02:02:49.779 --> 02:02:51.960
one year, but I didn't end up. I just didn't

02:02:51.960 --> 02:02:53.819
end up doing it. It was too much of a commitment

02:02:53.819 --> 02:02:56.100
for. I did the same with one of the things the

02:02:56.100 --> 02:02:58.100
year before. I think I'd gotten. Maybe I was

02:02:58.100 --> 02:03:00.579
doing like. They put me in the ensemble for Oklahoma

02:03:00.579 --> 02:03:03.560
or something. And I decided against doing it,

02:03:03.600 --> 02:03:06.039
whatever the fuck it was. But that summer we

02:03:06.039 --> 02:03:09.420
met. That was great. We fell in love. It was

02:03:09.420 --> 02:03:14.779
over. I went to do college, and then by the time

02:03:14.779 --> 02:03:17.619
she was probably starting FSU and getting into

02:03:17.619 --> 02:03:19.979
the scene, I was already gone to Chicago. Did

02:03:19.979 --> 02:03:21.260
y 'all stay in touch this whole time? Not really,

02:03:21.380 --> 02:03:24.300
not much. You reconnect in New York, and it was

02:03:24.300 --> 02:03:26.720
like old friends that hadn't spoken in years

02:03:26.720 --> 02:03:29.460
kind of thing. Meet Teresa very randomly. So

02:03:29.460 --> 02:03:34.880
the Silver Daggers had come to Manhattan. And

02:03:34.880 --> 02:03:38.119
I had no idea. This was probably like 2012? Right

02:03:38.119 --> 02:03:42.739
around that time, yeah. And so I was, I ended

02:03:42.739 --> 02:03:48.119
up reconnecting with Teresa. And so we, at this

02:03:48.119 --> 02:03:51.439
time, like the same within months of, or weeks

02:03:51.439 --> 02:03:54.779
of, weeks of the Queer Country thing, I get connected

02:03:54.779 --> 02:03:57.819
with Teresa. But she wasn't there at that show.

02:03:57.899 --> 02:04:00.800
She wasn't at the show, no. And so like, and

02:04:00.800 --> 02:04:03.560
so that was very weird. And so it was like reconnecting.

02:04:03.949 --> 02:04:08.149
with her and so it was it's been years like a

02:04:08.149 --> 02:04:12.250
really long time and so and so but it seemed

02:04:12.250 --> 02:04:15.369
probably like a sign it was like looking back

02:04:15.369 --> 02:04:17.770
i'm also i mean like wow this is really like

02:04:17.770 --> 02:04:22.289
crazy how this all worked out it just blew up

02:04:22.289 --> 02:04:23.909
it always blew my mind it happened it happens

02:04:24.360 --> 02:04:26.180
All the time living in New York, though, like,

02:04:26.239 --> 02:04:27.859
or you, especially when I was first there, it

02:04:27.859 --> 02:04:29.760
would just shock me. You run into people, like,

02:04:29.819 --> 02:04:31.220
ghosts from your past, like, you think you're

02:04:31.220 --> 02:04:32.600
never going to meet somebody. Like, the first

02:04:32.600 --> 02:04:34.000
night I was ever in the middle of Manhattan,

02:04:34.239 --> 02:04:36.060
I ran into three different people I knew from

02:04:36.060 --> 02:04:38.600
the most, like, not people you would expect to

02:04:38.600 --> 02:04:40.380
see there, right? One day walking to school,

02:04:40.500 --> 02:04:42.460
you meet, like, this guy I went to high school

02:04:42.460 --> 02:04:44.619
with in Wakulla who I haven't seen since graduation

02:04:44.619 --> 02:04:47.119
day, like, pulls up in a car driving through

02:04:47.119 --> 02:04:49.439
Manhattan. Because he rented a car, whatever

02:04:49.439 --> 02:04:50.899
the fuck. It's like the random people you walk

02:04:50.899 --> 02:04:52.539
into is very weird. Who rents a car in Manhattan?

02:04:52.880 --> 02:04:55.739
Exactly. Exactly. So anyway, so like running

02:04:55.739 --> 02:04:59.819
to Teresa, we reconnect. And so we start, and

02:04:59.819 --> 02:05:01.479
I'm playing music. And then like they're playing

02:05:01.479 --> 02:05:03.600
music. They're wanting to play music. The Silver

02:05:03.600 --> 02:05:05.300
Daggers are playing in New York. So I'm just

02:05:05.300 --> 02:05:11.100
like, let's play music together. In my head,

02:05:11.100 --> 02:05:15.460
I was like, I'm going to open up for. them and

02:05:15.460 --> 02:05:16.479
they're going to do their thing that's what we

02:05:16.479 --> 02:05:18.239
that's what kind of what we did like i mean that's

02:05:18.239 --> 02:05:20.800
what we would do and i thought i was like here

02:05:20.800 --> 02:05:22.920
we go got it got my partners talented people

02:05:22.920 --> 02:05:27.260
haven't seen this is my i after i had a couple

02:05:27.260 --> 02:05:29.859
of good shows i was like i'll do i'm just gonna

02:05:29.859 --> 02:05:32.260
put my shit out there and so i reached out to

02:05:32.260 --> 02:05:36.119
there's a gay bar a leather bar slash music venue

02:05:36.119 --> 02:05:39.020
slash whatever on the west side in the west village

02:05:39.020 --> 02:05:43.199
in manhattan called rock bar and it By day, sometimes

02:05:43.199 --> 02:05:46.479
they like shot like porn or whatever in there.

02:05:47.140 --> 02:05:49.560
You got to make your money. But at night, their

02:05:49.560 --> 02:05:53.220
goal was to be a place where queer musicians

02:05:53.220 --> 02:05:55.239
could also play. They wanted to do that more

02:05:55.239 --> 02:05:57.439
than they probably were able to because, you

02:05:57.439 --> 02:05:59.899
know, the money was more in like drag shows.

02:06:00.039 --> 02:06:03.020
Like that was very like a bare leather adjacent

02:06:03.020 --> 02:06:06.579
kind of crew, super friendly. But I didn't know

02:06:06.579 --> 02:06:07.840
anything about them except there were gay music

02:06:07.840 --> 02:06:09.920
venues in my head. So I like reach out to them

02:06:09.920 --> 02:06:12.810
and I'm just like. I sent them a picture and

02:06:12.810 --> 02:06:17.050
a bio and a clip from the concert. Essentially

02:06:17.050 --> 02:06:20.029
a press kit. Yeah, a little press kit. And they

02:06:20.029 --> 02:06:22.729
must have thought that I was way better than

02:06:22.729 --> 02:06:24.010
I was, and they definitely thought I was better

02:06:24.010 --> 02:06:25.470
looking, I'm sure, because that picture was real

02:06:25.470 --> 02:06:30.689
good. But they gave me a night immediately, and

02:06:30.689 --> 02:06:34.510
we ended up having a really good turnout. Because,

02:06:34.569 --> 02:06:37.449
again, that first show look was like, I've got...

02:06:37.739 --> 02:06:39.859
I've got this spot in Manhattan. I'm playing

02:06:39.859 --> 02:06:43.239
in the West Village, blah, blah, blah. And after

02:06:43.239 --> 02:06:46.119
that, they offered me a monthly. Eric and Rick,

02:06:46.180 --> 02:06:49.239
I love you. They offered me a monthly show, Sight

02:06:49.239 --> 02:06:51.760
Unseen. I think they thought that that same crowd

02:06:51.760 --> 02:06:54.779
was going to come every month. And I think I

02:06:54.779 --> 02:06:56.140
did, too, because I'd never done any kind of

02:06:56.140 --> 02:07:00.079
monthly kind of thing. Not only that, but you.

02:07:01.199 --> 02:07:04.100
are looking for confidence anywhere you can get

02:07:04.100 --> 02:07:07.420
it at any point for sure that's so true i mean

02:07:07.420 --> 02:07:10.560
i and i don't mean that in uh in any way but

02:07:10.560 --> 02:07:15.600
no it's so true yeah like you think and i speak

02:07:15.600 --> 02:07:20.359
from experience myself yeah you think oh everybody's

02:07:20.359 --> 02:07:22.420
super excited about the first time i did this

02:07:22.420 --> 02:07:26.039
thing they're gonna be this excited every time

02:07:26.039 --> 02:07:28.340
or it's just like acid it's like the first time

02:07:29.800 --> 02:07:33.199
It's the same thing. It's like, oh, that first

02:07:33.199 --> 02:07:35.220
time was off the chart. So then the second time,

02:07:35.260 --> 02:07:38.680
you're like, it's still good. Yeah, yeah. Not

02:07:38.680 --> 02:07:43.140
the same. No. I think there is some truth to

02:07:43.140 --> 02:07:46.300
that. Like, it'll never be the same. Sure. And

02:07:46.300 --> 02:07:49.819
you always remember your first. Amen. But I think

02:07:49.819 --> 02:07:51.939
once you stop trying to recreate your first,

02:07:52.100 --> 02:07:55.380
no matter what it is. 100%. That's good advice.

02:07:55.500 --> 02:07:59.939
I'm going to. Once you let go of the idea that

02:07:59.939 --> 02:08:01.420
all your friends are going to come to every show,

02:08:01.579 --> 02:08:04.380
you no longer are bummed out when none of your

02:08:04.380 --> 02:08:07.460
friends come. Eviscerate those expectations because

02:08:07.460 --> 02:08:10.920
it actually makes life so much easier. Freer.

02:08:11.640 --> 02:08:14.979
So did you and Teresa start playing a bunch of

02:08:14.979 --> 02:08:18.039
shows together? We started playing shows. We

02:08:18.039 --> 02:08:22.079
had a really great show. And then the Silver

02:08:22.079 --> 02:08:27.399
Daggers were no more. And so I was really bummed

02:08:27.399 --> 02:08:28.979
about that. Everybody, I'm sure, was bummed about

02:08:28.979 --> 02:08:30.640
that. Yeah, we were, too. I mean, I remember

02:08:30.640 --> 02:08:34.739
when that happened. Yeah. So around that time,

02:08:34.859 --> 02:08:37.319
I got to meet this guy, Jeff Doker, who was from

02:08:37.319 --> 02:08:39.140
Tallahassee and grew up here. And he and Teresa

02:08:39.140 --> 02:08:41.880
were lifelong best friends since, like, preschool

02:08:41.880 --> 02:08:45.939
or something. Okay. And so I had never met him.

02:08:46.039 --> 02:08:47.659
And so, like, he just had to be living in Brooklyn.

02:08:47.800 --> 02:08:50.100
He is an angel sweetheart, just one of those

02:08:50.100 --> 02:08:52.619
rare Cubans that is just like. a unicorn of a

02:08:52.619 --> 02:08:55.920
man, just kindest, gentlest, smartest, brilliant

02:08:55.920 --> 02:09:00.920
soul. And so we all became like close. And Teresa

02:09:00.920 --> 02:09:03.159
and I had been, I've been working, I've been

02:09:03.159 --> 02:09:05.159
hanging out with all of them, but like Teresa

02:09:05.159 --> 02:09:08.859
and I like continued to work together and we

02:09:08.859 --> 02:09:10.520
started playing songs together and doing more

02:09:10.520 --> 02:09:14.460
stuff. And we found out that our voices, anybody's

02:09:14.460 --> 02:09:15.979
going to sound good singing with Teresa Jimenez.

02:09:16.199 --> 02:09:20.939
I will say that like that right there. But. Or

02:09:20.939 --> 02:09:24.300
bad. Or terrible, right? Believe me, I've done

02:09:24.300 --> 02:09:27.220
that too. I feel like if you're not up to snuff,

02:09:27.279 --> 02:09:30.260
she might expose those cracks real quick. You

02:09:30.260 --> 02:09:32.739
know what? You'd think she could, but she would

02:09:32.739 --> 02:09:36.979
never. No, no, no. I mean, it's like being...

02:09:36.979 --> 02:09:41.279
I don't know. If I were to stand... What am I

02:09:41.279 --> 02:09:42.640
trying to say? Nothing that's going to sound

02:09:42.640 --> 02:09:47.060
good. But yes, I 100 % agree with you on all

02:09:47.060 --> 02:09:50.720
levels. So we started playing music and we started

02:09:50.720 --> 02:09:53.460
singing together. And then everybody was writing

02:09:53.460 --> 02:09:58.520
stuff. And Jeff, who was like, I forget his role

02:09:58.520 --> 02:10:01.600
at the time. He's got lots of degrees. I feel

02:10:01.600 --> 02:10:03.279
like he's got a PhD in mathematics or something

02:10:03.279 --> 02:10:06.000
like that. I'm sorry, I'm forgetting. But he's

02:10:06.000 --> 02:10:08.520
one of the smartest people I know. But you'd

02:10:08.520 --> 02:10:10.579
never know. No pretense about him at all. And

02:10:10.579 --> 02:10:14.319
he was just like, we were, Teresa was like, hey,

02:10:14.340 --> 02:10:18.319
Jeff emailed a song. He was very interested in

02:10:18.319 --> 02:10:20.640
our music and he was like involved in giving

02:10:20.640 --> 02:10:22.399
us advice and stuff like that. And he was becoming

02:10:22.399 --> 02:10:25.100
a new friend for me. But then he basically had

02:10:25.100 --> 02:10:27.020
written a song called Searching for Strangers,

02:10:27.100 --> 02:10:28.960
which is on the Golden Child record that we did.

02:10:29.720 --> 02:10:33.779
And it was a duet he wrote for me and for us

02:10:33.779 --> 02:10:36.779
to sing. And it was like a country song. And

02:10:36.779 --> 02:10:40.199
I couldn't believe that it was a song by somebody

02:10:40.199 --> 02:10:42.880
I didn't know was a songwriter. It wasn't like

02:10:42.880 --> 02:10:46.399
a first, it wasn't a first outing. It wasn't,

02:10:46.399 --> 02:10:48.399
like, all that sweet. It was like, hot damn,

02:10:48.479 --> 02:10:50.840
this is a great song. And it's, like, complicated

02:10:50.840 --> 02:10:53.560
and complex in ways. And it's really, like, well

02:10:53.560 --> 02:10:55.779
done. And he has all these ideas musically that

02:10:55.779 --> 02:10:59.939
just, again, genius brain. And so, like, Teresa

02:10:59.939 --> 02:11:01.420
and I. And it's on that record that you put out

02:11:01.420 --> 02:11:03.960
in, what, 2015? Yeah, yeah. It's on Bridges.

02:11:04.279 --> 02:11:06.739
And Teresa's on that. She sings on it. And so,

02:11:06.739 --> 02:11:10.060
anyway, so we, that was what brought us together.

02:11:10.119 --> 02:11:12.420
So it was, like, we formed this band called The

02:11:12.420 --> 02:11:16.729
Choir Diary. I would sing my songs. Jeff would

02:11:16.729 --> 02:11:18.609
write songs. And Teresa and I would co -front

02:11:18.609 --> 02:11:21.510
the band, basically. So she'd sing her songs.

02:11:21.609 --> 02:11:23.350
I'd sing my songs. We'd do harmony on each other's

02:11:23.350 --> 02:11:25.970
stuff. I would play some keys. We'd each play

02:11:25.970 --> 02:11:28.489
guitar. He played bass. And we were just this

02:11:28.489 --> 02:11:31.949
makeshift little trio. And it was like, for me,

02:11:32.069 --> 02:11:36.149
I'd never been in a band before. I'd gone from

02:11:36.149 --> 02:11:38.189
not playing music to suddenly now playing with

02:11:38.189 --> 02:11:41.270
my friends and hanging out with them constantly.

02:11:41.449 --> 02:11:44.310
It was like everything that I... I was in heaven.

02:11:44.390 --> 02:11:45.989
I was like, oh, it's happening. It's happening.

02:11:46.189 --> 02:11:50.149
It's all happening. Delusion about how I probably

02:11:50.149 --> 02:11:52.550
sounded, if not all of us at the time, right?

02:11:52.989 --> 02:11:57.149
But if not to feel that way, then why the fuck

02:11:57.149 --> 02:12:00.609
are you doing it? And also, if you look across

02:12:00.609 --> 02:12:03.470
the stage at you, and Teresa Jimenez is there.

02:12:03.869 --> 02:12:05.850
and she's smiling back at you and singing along

02:12:05.850 --> 02:12:07.930
and having a good time, and she thinks with her

02:12:07.930 --> 02:12:09.750
talent that it's worth her time to be on this

02:12:09.750 --> 02:12:12.250
stage doing this thing with you, then surely

02:12:12.250 --> 02:12:17.250
things are okay. And so I feel like that was

02:12:17.250 --> 02:12:22.449
validation. Things that are normal for a lot

02:12:22.449 --> 02:12:24.630
of people were just first times. We're having

02:12:24.630 --> 02:12:28.090
a regular scheduled band practice. And I imagine

02:12:28.090 --> 02:12:30.409
the fact that you hadn't had years and years

02:12:30.409 --> 02:12:33.689
and years of a solo act. Yeah, yeah. allowed

02:12:33.689 --> 02:12:37.250
you to be open to their ideas a lot more you

02:12:37.250 --> 02:12:39.930
weren't like ingrained in these like habits that

02:12:39.930 --> 02:12:43.390
you had formed on your own good or bad like there

02:12:43.390 --> 02:12:46.109
and open to kind of everything definitely I was

02:12:46.109 --> 02:12:49.810
like I was so excited to be around people that

02:12:49.810 --> 02:12:52.890
were like that were interested then also like

02:12:52.890 --> 02:12:56.489
it's so nice when you have somebody who is a

02:12:56.489 --> 02:12:59.850
great friend and a great musician and whose work

02:12:59.850 --> 02:13:01.569
you also like a resonance yeah you have that

02:13:01.569 --> 02:13:04.069
mutual respect yeah and it's like i know that

02:13:04.069 --> 02:13:06.390
i yeah you know that it's like you you're like

02:13:06.390 --> 02:13:09.350
i actually would choose to listen to this i this

02:13:09.350 --> 02:13:12.930
music not just because i know you not just because

02:13:12.930 --> 02:13:14.869
i like you not because but not even because you're

02:13:14.869 --> 02:13:17.329
technically good at some aspect of it but because

02:13:17.329 --> 02:13:21.529
i like this shit to me is great and so being

02:13:21.529 --> 02:13:23.090
able to work with somebody that you can say that

02:13:23.090 --> 02:13:25.680
about and think that about and not be convincing

02:13:25.680 --> 02:13:29.100
yourself that yeah feels good yeah yeah no i

02:13:29.100 --> 02:13:32.079
i totally know what you mean it's been a long

02:13:32.079 --> 02:13:35.460
path to figure out like what i was like how to

02:13:35.460 --> 02:13:37.340
channel some of this energy like at one point

02:13:37.340 --> 02:13:41.039
i started like a small record label and there

02:13:41.039 --> 02:13:44.199
were like the artists that i was like i it didn't

02:13:44.199 --> 02:13:46.600
really go anywhere We did some recordings and

02:13:46.600 --> 02:13:49.760
they're actually being remastered by John Kurzweil

02:13:49.760 --> 02:13:52.699
right now. But that's silly. You did that. You

02:13:52.699 --> 02:13:54.300
decided to do something and you did it. That's

02:13:54.300 --> 02:13:57.880
to me like always. And I learned a lot that I

02:13:57.880 --> 02:14:02.159
learned a lot doing it. And I also, but there

02:14:02.159 --> 02:14:04.600
were those people that I was like, had to convince

02:14:04.600 --> 02:14:08.140
myself that were worth my time. And then there

02:14:08.140 --> 02:14:09.640
were the people that I was like, no, this is,

02:14:09.680 --> 02:14:13.100
there's no question. Yeah. And if I trusted my

02:14:13.100 --> 02:14:16.020
gut a little bit more, I probably wouldn't have

02:14:16.020 --> 02:14:19.220
wasted time on people that like, cause the people

02:14:19.220 --> 02:14:21.659
I recorded with and got the most done with are

02:14:21.659 --> 02:14:23.359
the people I really wanted to be working with.

02:14:23.460 --> 02:14:25.579
And then there were other people that ended up

02:14:25.579 --> 02:14:28.199
just being a distraction. It's, I feel like that's,

02:14:28.199 --> 02:14:31.359
it's always, it's all, it's like, it can't be

02:14:31.359 --> 02:14:34.899
expressed enough. Like that gut check is like

02:14:34.899 --> 02:14:37.920
super important. Yeah. It's like, I've still

02:14:37.920 --> 02:14:39.819
learned how to listen to it, learn what it means.

02:14:39.819 --> 02:14:42.220
And I get it wrong a lot, but like imposter syndromism.

02:14:42.520 --> 02:14:44.720
bitch yes so those two things fighting those

02:14:44.720 --> 02:14:47.300
two things and figure out what's what or what

02:14:47.300 --> 02:14:51.060
completely ego driving the bus versus what there's

02:14:51.060 --> 02:14:54.140
also been on the flip side too i have dismissed

02:14:54.140 --> 02:14:57.560
other artists at various stage in their like

02:14:57.560 --> 02:15:02.800
journey for whatever stupid reason or none that

02:15:02.800 --> 02:15:08.039
was worth talking about and find myself later

02:15:08.039 --> 02:15:11.560
being like oh my god this person has worked so

02:15:11.560 --> 02:15:13.600
much harder than I've worked, which is not to

02:15:13.600 --> 02:15:17.159
put in context of me, but like just seeing what

02:15:17.159 --> 02:15:19.119
they've done and how hard they've worked and

02:15:19.119 --> 02:15:21.520
how good they've become and how I'm looking up

02:15:21.520 --> 02:15:24.579
to them for, for stuff. And they're becoming

02:15:24.579 --> 02:15:28.539
like somebody who I might not have, I might've

02:15:28.539 --> 02:15:30.939
been sleeping on because of whatever like thing

02:15:30.939 --> 02:15:34.199
I thought. And that person is actually, turns

02:15:34.199 --> 02:15:36.880
out there are people in my life now that like,

02:15:36.899 --> 02:15:41.430
I, did not invest in and luckily I still caught

02:15:41.430 --> 02:15:43.770
that relationship while there was still time

02:15:43.770 --> 02:15:45.590
to not in a transactional way just to be like

02:15:45.590 --> 02:15:48.029
some of my closest friends I you know I was too

02:15:48.029 --> 02:15:52.029
at my own ass maybe at a time to to think about

02:15:52.029 --> 02:15:54.829
connecting because really honestly like what

02:15:54.829 --> 02:15:57.909
I learned way too late for me is that all this

02:15:57.909 --> 02:16:00.630
it only matters like about the connections in

02:16:00.630 --> 02:16:04.250
the community and it's not about like and determining

02:16:04.250 --> 02:16:09.819
what success is like and And what I find the

02:16:09.819 --> 02:16:12.060
most rewarding things are not like the, it's

02:16:12.060 --> 02:16:13.739
not about getting a certain amount of likes or

02:16:13.739 --> 02:16:15.140
a certain amount of people or a certain venue.

02:16:15.220 --> 02:16:18.560
It's about the feeling of being involved in a

02:16:18.560 --> 02:16:20.340
community that's got each other's backs and who

02:16:20.340 --> 02:16:23.880
is stronger together and makes things. And there's

02:16:23.880 --> 02:16:27.890
something that really like soul affirming. About

02:16:27.890 --> 02:16:31.449
having people appreciate your art when you are

02:16:31.449 --> 02:16:34.229
being like your purest self, when you put it,

02:16:34.229 --> 02:16:36.709
when you pour like your real true self into that

02:16:36.709 --> 02:16:41.409
art and people appreciate that. Yeah. And not

02:16:41.409 --> 02:16:44.329
in like you said, like a likes or a transactional

02:16:44.329 --> 02:16:46.670
way, but like in this like really transcendent

02:16:46.670 --> 02:16:51.250
way. Like, I don't know that there's anything

02:16:51.250 --> 02:16:55.209
better than sharing some of those moments with

02:16:55.209 --> 02:16:59.200
a crowd or. Yeah. And sometimes it can be silly.

02:16:59.260 --> 02:17:04.920
Sometimes it can be traumatic. Yeah. But yeah,

02:17:05.079 --> 02:17:08.639
having, pouring your like soul into something

02:17:08.639 --> 02:17:11.459
and having other people like it or respect it

02:17:11.459 --> 02:17:15.959
or appreciate it is so much, it's so different

02:17:15.959 --> 02:17:19.319
than trying to make something for other people.

02:17:19.379 --> 02:17:23.870
Yes. It's so much more important. Yeah, of course

02:17:23.870 --> 02:17:27.010
you do. I made this for you to like it. Also,

02:17:27.049 --> 02:17:30.069
back to expectations, too. It's the same thing

02:17:30.069 --> 02:17:32.889
we're having. We talk about people sustaining

02:17:32.889 --> 02:17:35.649
your shows or whatever. If you raise those expectations

02:17:35.649 --> 02:17:39.430
and you do decide, I'm going to make this for

02:17:39.430 --> 02:17:44.010
me. I'm not going to try to figure out what I

02:17:44.010 --> 02:17:48.110
think is best for whatever. Those are also like...

02:17:49.239 --> 02:17:51.579
I don't know. It's much more rewarding for me.

02:17:51.620 --> 02:17:53.780
It feels much more authentically me. And the

02:17:53.780 --> 02:17:57.059
irony is that more people, in my experience,

02:17:57.159 --> 02:18:00.819
have resonated with the songs that I make for

02:18:00.819 --> 02:18:03.139
me and the songs that I write for me, whatever

02:18:03.139 --> 02:18:07.559
that means. Where I'm not trying to make those

02:18:07.559 --> 02:18:11.520
people happy are the songs that get the most,

02:18:11.620 --> 02:18:14.459
that have the most resonance with others, it

02:18:14.459 --> 02:18:16.959
seems. Absolutely. And I think that's true for

02:18:16.959 --> 02:18:20.590
my jokes as well. And it's also the only thing

02:18:20.590 --> 02:18:23.950
that makes you, you like, it's the only thing

02:18:23.950 --> 02:18:26.469
that's going to make your art unique in any real

02:18:26.469 --> 02:18:30.629
way. I don't worry about, Oh, has anybody else

02:18:30.629 --> 02:18:34.030
made this joke before? Sure. Because I'm telling

02:18:34.030 --> 02:18:38.270
it from such a personal place that even if there

02:18:38.270 --> 02:18:41.709
might be making the same joke, it's so true for

02:18:41.709 --> 02:18:43.889
me that I just don't give a shit. It's your story,

02:18:43.950 --> 02:18:46.790
right? Yeah. Your version, you telling your story

02:18:46.790 --> 02:18:49.930
or whatever story. It's going to be, like, unique.

02:18:50.450 --> 02:18:53.770
And anything that's not, anything that's, unless

02:18:53.770 --> 02:18:55.969
you're, obviously, like, there are times where

02:18:55.969 --> 02:18:57.790
you're like, oh, I'm going to play it at this

02:18:57.790 --> 02:18:59.989
venue tonight, so I'm going to maybe not sing

02:18:59.989 --> 02:19:02.110
that song or maybe adjust my word here because

02:19:02.110 --> 02:19:05.989
Aunt Susie's in the audience and I love her and

02:19:05.989 --> 02:19:09.010
this fuck is going to offend her. That's one

02:19:09.010 --> 02:19:12.790
thing that I could do once in a while. I don't

02:19:12.790 --> 02:19:15.850
mind. I'll be on the radio. I'm not going to

02:19:15.850 --> 02:19:22.030
get kicked off the radio. But I'm a lord. Well,

02:19:22.030 --> 02:19:23.850
I think it's really important to know how to

02:19:23.850 --> 02:19:27.569
perform for different audiences. Sure. There's

02:19:27.569 --> 02:19:33.409
a clean comedy show every month in Athens. It's

02:19:33.409 --> 02:19:35.329
just in a coffee shop. And I think it's so cool

02:19:35.329 --> 02:19:39.250
to just have that be a thing that they have.

02:19:39.329 --> 02:19:41.329
Oh, I'm going to go do five minutes of clean

02:19:41.329 --> 02:19:45.860
comedy. None of them necessarily are clean comics.

02:19:46.120 --> 02:19:48.959
Sure. It's just a skill. And the parameters,

02:19:49.059 --> 02:19:51.180
setting that parameter in that box is so helpful

02:19:51.180 --> 02:19:53.940
sometimes for creating something like it's like

02:19:53.940 --> 02:19:55.760
a game. Restraint can be such an inspiration,

02:19:55.879 --> 02:20:00.180
like such a source of inspiration. I agree. I

02:20:00.180 --> 02:20:03.219
don't, I'm not a prude in any way, but I'm all

02:20:03.219 --> 02:20:06.079
for because vulgar or whatever is you want to

02:20:06.079 --> 02:20:10.200
go, but I totally unrelated, but. I'm never a

02:20:10.200 --> 02:20:13.239
fan of vulgarity for vulgarity's sake. 100%.

02:20:13.239 --> 02:20:16.260
I don't need it, but what's amazing to me is

02:20:16.260 --> 02:20:19.040
when somebody can create something that can't...

02:20:19.040 --> 02:20:20.639
I don't know if you've seen the movie Train Dreams

02:20:20.639 --> 02:20:25.659
randomly, but on Netflix, it is beautiful. It's

02:20:25.659 --> 02:20:31.600
a very simple story. It's heartbreaking, and

02:20:31.600 --> 02:20:34.479
it's gorgeous. It's a stunning movie, and it

02:20:34.479 --> 02:20:37.469
is... completely, I think, inoffensive. I don't

02:20:37.469 --> 02:20:39.389
think there's a curse word in there. The sex

02:20:39.389 --> 02:20:42.290
scene is so tasteful, right? And it's a story

02:20:42.290 --> 02:20:44.489
that I feel like I was so moved by watching.

02:20:44.729 --> 02:20:47.790
I know my buddy in a punk band loved it. I know

02:20:47.790 --> 02:20:50.850
I could watch it with my parents, and both my

02:20:50.850 --> 02:20:53.870
parents would love it without any kind of moment

02:20:53.870 --> 02:20:55.510
of, we gotta pause this or I'm gonna walk out

02:20:55.510 --> 02:20:58.750
of the room or whatever the fuck it is. And it's

02:20:58.750 --> 02:21:01.190
nice because it's also not like, it's not a Hallmark

02:21:01.190 --> 02:21:03.700
movie. It's not a Christian movie. It's like

02:21:03.700 --> 02:21:06.159
a Hollywood movie. Miyazaki, I think, is another

02:21:06.159 --> 02:21:09.260
great example of that. Think about My Neighbor

02:21:09.260 --> 02:21:11.979
Totoro. Oh my gosh. There's not even any conflict

02:21:11.979 --> 02:21:18.500
in that movie. It is like the most calm, clean

02:21:18.500 --> 02:21:23.139
piece of art. So beautiful. It's a really good

02:21:23.139 --> 02:21:27.299
companion to LSD. I've always thought, I've spirited

02:21:27.299 --> 02:21:30.719
away. Oh, that's an intense one. I've done it.

02:21:31.309 --> 02:21:34.930
I've watched it on mushrooms before. Yeah. Mushrooms

02:21:34.930 --> 02:21:38.290
are a little harder to control, though, I think,

02:21:38.309 --> 02:21:41.629
for me. It's true. In terms of, like, I don't

02:21:41.629 --> 02:21:44.049
want to... Sometimes it gives my tummy a whirl.

02:21:44.270 --> 02:21:47.969
Well, there's that, too. Yeah. Yeah. So you put

02:21:47.969 --> 02:21:51.569
this album out in 2015 with Teresa and... Yeah.

02:21:52.049 --> 02:21:53.729
And what was... I'm sorry, what was his name?

02:21:53.750 --> 02:21:56.510
Jeff Doker. Jeff Doker. What were, like, were

02:21:56.510 --> 02:22:00.559
you... Did you think that was... I... Yeah. i

02:22:00.559 --> 02:22:02.459
thought i thought we were i thought our band

02:22:02.459 --> 02:22:04.260
was gonna be like we were just getting to play

02:22:04.260 --> 02:22:06.540
at this like one venue in williamsburg spike

02:22:06.540 --> 02:22:09.299
hill which is now gone and it felt like a big

02:22:09.299 --> 02:22:11.319
real venue we had a friday night show all this

02:22:11.319 --> 02:22:13.680
kind of stuff like i've ticketed we weren't the

02:22:13.680 --> 02:22:15.959
opening act it was like i was like we're gonna

02:22:15.959 --> 02:22:19.639
do it and then theresa theresa hit the west coast

02:22:19.639 --> 02:22:24.079
and i was Which is what she needed to do and

02:22:24.079 --> 02:22:26.659
it was perfect choice and whatever but at the

02:22:26.659 --> 02:22:29.059
time I was devastated I was like we're just getting

02:22:29.059 --> 02:22:30.700
to this point where like I think we could be

02:22:30.700 --> 02:22:33.540
something and having Teresa gone felt it was

02:22:33.540 --> 02:22:35.799
like oh god like I'm not good enough to do this

02:22:35.799 --> 02:22:40.540
I can't like and then but Jeff and I still wanted

02:22:40.540 --> 02:22:43.700
to play music and we were and we had gotten other

02:22:43.700 --> 02:22:45.299
folks that we would have play in the band with

02:22:45.299 --> 02:22:46.819
us. We had a lead guitar player, we had whatever.

02:22:46.959 --> 02:22:49.100
And so we had a full band and I was like, oh,

02:22:49.219 --> 02:22:50.940
I want to do something. I don't want to lose

02:22:50.940 --> 02:22:52.680
this momentum, but I felt so despondent. And

02:22:52.680 --> 02:22:55.600
so I was like, I felt like I, and Jeff was like,

02:22:55.639 --> 02:22:57.879
well, you just go and do it without Teresa. We'll

02:22:57.879 --> 02:22:59.940
do the same thing. And I was going to be okay.

02:23:00.020 --> 02:23:01.819
And I was just like, I was struggling because

02:23:01.819 --> 02:23:04.280
I was, I didn't think I could. And so like, I,

02:23:04.319 --> 02:23:06.520
and I didn't want to be like. Well, and she had

02:23:06.520 --> 02:23:08.860
always been there at this point. Yeah. At this

02:23:08.860 --> 02:23:11.879
point in the band stuff. Right. And taking me

02:23:11.879 --> 02:23:14.200
over, having her there also meant that I had

02:23:14.200 --> 02:23:16.920
this, like, I knew that if I fucked up, that,

02:23:16.920 --> 02:23:18.739
like, I still have a superstar on stage with

02:23:18.739 --> 02:23:22.879
me who can, like, keep it all going. But she

02:23:22.879 --> 02:23:26.579
had been there, like, through you even, like,

02:23:26.639 --> 02:23:28.979
really coming out of your shell as a songwriter,

02:23:29.079 --> 02:23:30.780
too. Like, she had been, like, a major component

02:23:30.780 --> 02:23:32.700
of all of that. Yeah, and we were all, like,

02:23:32.739 --> 02:23:35.159
as we still do. I mean, we still have a choir

02:23:35.159 --> 02:23:37.100
and I already chat that I talked to all the way

02:23:37.100 --> 02:23:41.360
up here earlier. we're workshopping stuff and

02:23:41.360 --> 02:23:42.860
like sharing that kind of stuff but that was

02:23:42.860 --> 02:23:45.600
the first community and also it was also so new

02:23:45.600 --> 02:23:47.040
it was very short -lived like period of time

02:23:47.040 --> 02:23:49.180
it was just like and I was just I thought oh

02:23:49.180 --> 02:23:52.159
it's over before it even started and so then

02:23:52.159 --> 02:23:54.879
I but then I was like you know what I'm going

02:23:54.879 --> 02:23:57.040
to we had talked about wanting to make a record

02:23:57.040 --> 02:24:00.440
I I had like enough songs between me and Jeff

02:24:00.440 --> 02:24:03.440
and like doing a cover or whatever that we could

02:24:03.440 --> 02:24:06.840
like make this record and so we were like we

02:24:06.840 --> 02:24:09.690
tapped a producer And we had no idea what we

02:24:09.690 --> 02:24:11.709
were doing, especially me. Did a Kickstarter.

02:24:12.450 --> 02:24:15.190
And then also I had to decide that I didn't want

02:24:15.190 --> 02:24:18.010
to be Wiley Gaby. I didn't think it was like

02:24:18.010 --> 02:24:20.510
right to be this band that we'd all been doing

02:24:20.510 --> 02:24:21.969
something together and then suddenly call it

02:24:21.969 --> 02:24:24.170
the Wiley Gaby Band or whatever. It just felt

02:24:24.170 --> 02:24:26.370
weird. It felt like I was, it felt manipulative

02:24:26.370 --> 02:24:29.389
or something. Yeah, yeah. And I felt if people

02:24:29.389 --> 02:24:31.209
were going to be involved and invested in this,

02:24:31.290 --> 02:24:32.610
like it would probably be better if we had like

02:24:32.610 --> 02:24:35.409
a name that was not me. And I was talking to

02:24:35.409 --> 02:24:38.540
some friends and we missed, instead of, gold

02:24:38.540 --> 02:24:40.559
star gay which I think is the actual term is

02:24:40.559 --> 02:24:42.299
and I was like aren't you a golden child or something

02:24:42.299 --> 02:24:43.940
which is like a gold star gay as someone who

02:24:43.940 --> 02:24:46.700
is maybe you all know what this is in the audience

02:24:46.700 --> 02:24:49.799
but so I was like that's a perfect I was kind

02:24:49.799 --> 02:24:52.840
of like my mom is baby golden child fits I'm

02:24:52.840 --> 02:24:56.299
a golden child gay and so that's that was just

02:24:56.299 --> 02:24:58.540
like that was that just worked because also we

02:24:58.540 --> 02:25:01.180
couldn't find another fucking word and so that

02:25:01.180 --> 02:25:03.280
gave me some kind of like mass to create behind

02:25:03.280 --> 02:25:08.840
and yeah I use the stage name too It almost helps

02:25:08.840 --> 02:25:11.680
you be more honest. Yeah, 100%. It's weird. The

02:25:11.680 --> 02:25:15.899
same thing as Bowie or Gaga or anybody doing

02:25:15.899 --> 02:25:18.459
that kind of thing or anybody who puts on a fake

02:25:18.459 --> 02:25:21.899
name or changes to a stage name. It makes so

02:25:21.899 --> 02:25:24.159
much sense because at that point especially,

02:25:24.319 --> 02:25:27.579
it was necessary for me to be able to. It somehow

02:25:27.579 --> 02:25:30.040
lowers the stakes, which allows you to bring

02:25:30.040 --> 02:25:34.239
them up, I think. Just while we're on the topic,

02:25:34.299 --> 02:25:36.219
and then I want to jump back a little bit, but

02:25:36.219 --> 02:25:40.639
what made you want to return to using Wiley Gaby

02:25:40.639 --> 02:25:44.379
as your name? Because it never, because the reasons

02:25:44.379 --> 02:25:47.239
that I, you know, aside from wanting people to

02:25:47.239 --> 02:25:51.920
be, I'll say a number of things. The reasons

02:25:51.920 --> 02:25:55.120
for me not being Wiley Gaby were not compelling

02:25:55.120 --> 02:25:58.639
enough. It was mostly fear -borne, and it was

02:25:58.639 --> 02:26:02.360
mostly like... feelings of inadequacy and feeling

02:26:02.360 --> 02:26:06.100
uncomfortable with stepping into that and being

02:26:06.100 --> 02:26:09.379
like, this feels egomaniacal or this feels like

02:26:09.379 --> 02:26:12.540
narcissistic or whatever the fuck it is. But

02:26:12.540 --> 02:26:16.120
as my bandmates, I think at the time, you should

02:26:16.120 --> 02:26:19.020
just be Wiley Gaby or whatever it is. I mean,

02:26:19.020 --> 02:26:23.180
it's also a great name. I understand when people

02:26:23.180 --> 02:26:26.059
use a stage name and they have a name that they're

02:26:26.059 --> 02:26:29.069
like, no, you're just like, no. don't use that

02:26:29.069 --> 02:26:32.290
my parents gave me Wiley gave me it's already

02:26:32.290 --> 02:26:35.590
I was it's got all it's got humor and it's got

02:26:35.590 --> 02:26:40.129
like uniqueness and it's so finally I like got

02:26:40.129 --> 02:26:42.670
comfortable with that idea and also logistics

02:26:42.670 --> 02:26:46.069
wise too it's it was weird for me because I was

02:26:46.069 --> 02:26:48.190
part of this band called Golden Child that was

02:26:48.190 --> 02:26:52.729
like primarily me and Jeff songs too and Jeff

02:26:52.729 --> 02:26:55.709
did a lot of work on that record but There was

02:26:55.709 --> 02:26:57.290
a time when Jeff wasn't, it was just me performing

02:26:57.290 --> 02:26:59.770
as Golden Child or me performing with a band,

02:26:59.950 --> 02:27:04.510
a variation of the band. Yeah, yeah. It just

02:27:04.510 --> 02:27:06.290
felt, also then it began to feel weird to be

02:27:06.290 --> 02:27:08.389
like when I would, I moved to Nashville for a

02:27:08.389 --> 02:27:10.909
brief year and was like, I'm going to play music

02:27:10.909 --> 02:27:12.530
and playing solo shows. And I'm like, my name

02:27:12.530 --> 02:27:14.389
is Wiley Gavey. If I play as Golden Child, that

02:27:14.389 --> 02:27:16.610
feels weird. I didn't know how to do it. I didn't

02:27:16.610 --> 02:27:19.049
know how to make that work. And I was very inconsistent

02:27:19.049 --> 02:27:24.360
with it. And it started to feel like. oh something

02:27:24.360 --> 02:27:26.719
just felt disingenuous like the thing like it

02:27:26.719 --> 02:27:29.600
started to feel like like why wouldn't i just

02:27:29.600 --> 02:27:32.280
be myself and i remember talking to somebody

02:27:32.280 --> 02:27:34.020
maybe a pr person and they were just i was like

02:27:34.020 --> 02:27:36.040
i'm thinking about releasing my next record as

02:27:36.040 --> 02:27:37.860
wiley gaby and doing this solo thing and they're

02:27:37.860 --> 02:27:39.700
like why would you do that you've got you started

02:27:39.700 --> 02:27:41.979
golden child already you already started this

02:27:41.979 --> 02:27:43.579
thing you're gonna have to start from scratch

02:27:43.579 --> 02:27:45.159
on your social media or whatever the fuck it

02:27:45.159 --> 02:27:47.180
is all that stuff and i'm just like and that's

02:27:47.180 --> 02:27:49.520
probably some really great advice i definitely

02:27:49.520 --> 02:27:51.680
if i would have stayed performing as Golden Child

02:27:51.680 --> 02:27:55.299
and just gone under that name, it would be probably

02:27:55.299 --> 02:27:59.079
easier in some ways. But playing solo and calling

02:27:59.079 --> 02:28:01.879
myself Golden Child felt weird. Trying to make

02:28:01.879 --> 02:28:05.180
that work also. But now it's been confusing up

02:28:05.180 --> 02:28:06.979
until now because I haven't had music out under

02:28:06.979 --> 02:28:09.200
the name Violet Gaby and only under Golden Child

02:28:09.200 --> 02:28:11.379
is that touring as much as I have in the last

02:28:11.379 --> 02:28:13.100
couple years. Do you play a lot of those Golden

02:28:13.100 --> 02:28:15.719
Child songs now, like live? Not so much. I play

02:28:15.719 --> 02:28:18.370
like one or two of them. I was playing... Up

02:28:18.370 --> 02:28:20.709
until maybe the last year, I was playing a good

02:28:20.709 --> 02:28:23.290
deal, at least three of them pretty regularly.

02:28:24.389 --> 02:28:28.069
And that would be my... But the only music I

02:28:28.069 --> 02:28:30.030
would have online would be... So I'd play some

02:28:30.030 --> 02:28:31.750
of them, so that would be... Because I liked

02:28:31.750 --> 02:28:33.569
playing them still, and I didn't have much else

02:28:33.569 --> 02:28:36.379
to play. But trying to explain to people, like,

02:28:36.440 --> 02:28:39.319
my name is Wiley Gavey. It's Golden Child. And

02:28:39.319 --> 02:28:41.239
then you go to find Golden Child. There's a ton

02:28:41.239 --> 02:28:42.959
of people like that. There's a K -pop band that's

02:28:42.959 --> 02:28:46.180
huge. Yeah, I came across that. I was so pissed.

02:28:46.260 --> 02:28:47.819
Well, that's also another reason. There was also

02:28:47.819 --> 02:28:50.079
stuff like that happening. I feel like when I

02:28:50.079 --> 02:28:53.139
first was doing it, I found it was a Golden Child

02:28:53.139 --> 02:28:57.120
who was a rapper. That's a good rap name, I've

02:28:57.120 --> 02:28:59.620
got to say. Such a good rap name. Such a good

02:28:59.620 --> 02:29:02.760
rap name. Also, our music would get confused

02:29:02.760 --> 02:29:05.600
on Spotify. Apple Music, especially back in the

02:29:05.600 --> 02:29:07.020
day before they had similar technology. You could

02:29:07.020 --> 02:29:08.399
have just leaned into it and toured together.

02:29:08.479 --> 02:29:11.620
I probably should have. Although, in my head,

02:29:11.620 --> 02:29:13.659
I was like, he is way too cool for being way

02:29:13.659 --> 02:29:15.340
better than I am. He probably doesn't want to

02:29:15.340 --> 02:29:18.260
hang out with the queer country golden child.

02:29:18.979 --> 02:29:21.799
But, so there was like... Let's start sampling

02:29:21.799 --> 02:29:23.860
your songs. That would be a good idea. I'd be

02:29:23.860 --> 02:29:27.399
neck on all of this. Do a Chopped and Screwed

02:29:27.399 --> 02:29:29.940
record? I'm going to put this under some heavy

02:29:29.940 --> 02:29:33.770
consideration. So, Teresa... does the west coast

02:29:33.770 --> 02:29:37.549
thing you're devastated by it you pick a name

02:29:37.549 --> 02:29:40.430
we've talked about how you get back to it but

02:29:40.430 --> 02:29:44.110
at what point do you get connected with dial

02:29:44.110 --> 02:29:49.389
back sound and how what am i missing in the middle

02:29:49.389 --> 02:29:51.790
there because i feel like there's a few years

02:29:51.790 --> 02:29:55.370
there maybe discovery of myself yeah i started

02:29:55.370 --> 02:29:57.250
making so i worked with mark ephraim who's a

02:29:57.250 --> 02:30:00.350
really amazing guy He's in Sweden now, and he's

02:30:00.350 --> 02:30:02.069
from the States originally. He was in Brooklyn.

02:30:02.129 --> 02:30:05.010
He produced our first record, and he and I were

02:30:05.010 --> 02:30:06.989
looking at making a... I can tell he's smarter

02:30:06.989 --> 02:30:10.450
than us because he got the fuck out. Yeah. Yeah.

02:30:11.149 --> 02:30:14.729
Also, he has two kids that basically... So they

02:30:14.729 --> 02:30:19.729
had dual citizenship, and so it was impossible

02:30:19.729 --> 02:30:21.329
for them not to be. This is overshared, too,

02:30:21.409 --> 02:30:23.469
but basically it's like... they could go after

02:30:23.469 --> 02:30:25.489
the youngest kid was like three and they could

02:30:25.489 --> 02:30:27.770
still go and move and get retroactive family

02:30:27.770 --> 02:30:30.290
leave and all this other kind of stuff. They

02:30:30.290 --> 02:30:31.770
had to basically leave Brooklyn where they were

02:30:31.770 --> 02:30:33.510
like, you know, everyone's struggling to like

02:30:33.510 --> 02:30:36.930
pay rent, like go live, not have to work for

02:30:36.930 --> 02:30:38.510
two years while they got to spend time with their

02:30:38.510 --> 02:30:40.430
kids because they got their retroactive parental

02:30:40.430 --> 02:30:42.930
leave for both kids. That's four years later.

02:30:42.950 --> 02:30:45.770
It's fucking crazy. America is the best country

02:30:45.770 --> 02:30:49.590
on earth. There is America, man. Come on. I'm

02:30:49.590 --> 02:30:52.020
sure there's. There's something terrible about

02:30:52.020 --> 02:30:56.520
Sweden, I'm sure. Their fish are just bland.

02:30:56.760 --> 02:30:59.959
It's red and gummy. I'm more of a grouper fan.

02:31:00.500 --> 02:31:05.420
I'm a Sour Patch Kids guy. So what in between?

02:31:05.979 --> 02:31:09.639
So Mark. Yeah, so I met Mark when we were working

02:31:09.639 --> 02:31:13.319
on a second record. Starting to get some percolating.

02:31:13.379 --> 02:31:17.479
He moved to Sweden. And those never quite took

02:31:17.479 --> 02:31:19.319
off. And then I decided to move to Nashville.

02:31:19.850 --> 02:31:21.170
thinking to myself, all I need to do is move

02:31:21.170 --> 02:31:23.790
to Nashville. That's where I need to go. That's

02:31:23.790 --> 02:31:26.889
where you go to see what is said is so. Yeah,

02:31:26.909 --> 02:31:29.370
that's exactly what happened. I didn't want to

02:31:29.370 --> 02:31:30.729
leave Brooklyn, but I convinced myself I needed

02:31:30.729 --> 02:31:34.170
to, and I had a nightmare of a time down there.

02:31:34.850 --> 02:31:37.010
It just wasn't my... I love Nashville to visit.

02:31:37.110 --> 02:31:38.950
I loved visiting there so much. I have wonderful

02:31:38.950 --> 02:31:42.709
friends there. It also wasn't fair to Nashville

02:31:42.709 --> 02:31:45.170
at the time. I did not want to be there. I convinced

02:31:45.170 --> 02:31:47.209
myself to go, so I found fault with everything

02:31:47.209 --> 02:31:50.110
there. I see, I see. You know, it is different.

02:31:50.229 --> 02:31:52.389
The great thing about Nashville in terms of music

02:31:52.389 --> 02:31:54.569
is that everyone there is amazingly skilled.

02:31:54.870 --> 02:31:57.909
If you're not, then you're not going to get to

02:31:57.909 --> 02:32:01.110
play. And whether you're playing at 10 o 'clock

02:32:01.110 --> 02:32:04.129
on Broadway in the morning at a bar or the person

02:32:04.129 --> 02:32:07.469
that's playing at the Bridgestone Arena or East

02:32:07.469 --> 02:32:10.510
Nashville, whatever it is, it is shocking. I'm

02:32:10.510 --> 02:32:13.170
sure you've been around it. Yeah, I love Nashville.

02:32:13.549 --> 02:32:17.530
To visit. Yeah, to visit. Also the best food

02:32:17.530 --> 02:32:20.350
and beverage. The world, I will say that they've

02:32:20.350 --> 02:32:22.309
got down pat. I think their food and beverage

02:32:22.309 --> 02:32:24.790
is frequently more interesting than the music

02:32:24.790 --> 02:32:29.889
stuff. But it's a lot. But back to playing against

02:32:29.889 --> 02:32:32.989
good people, Nashville was a place where I was

02:32:32.989 --> 02:32:35.389
like, oh, you've got to step your game up. If

02:32:35.389 --> 02:32:37.649
you're going to do this for real, because this

02:32:37.649 --> 02:32:39.670
is different than New York. In New York, we get

02:32:39.670 --> 02:32:41.350
away with being a little sloppy and stuff like

02:32:41.350 --> 02:32:43.229
that. And I didn't realize how different scenes

02:32:43.229 --> 02:32:47.030
in different cities. I started to see more difference.

02:32:48.250 --> 02:32:51.110
I think about Nashville. I mean, think about

02:32:51.110 --> 02:32:54.729
Isbell and the way his shows are so polished,

02:32:54.950 --> 02:32:58.149
so meticulous. He wants to perform the best version

02:32:58.149 --> 02:33:01.790
of his song every night. And that is not the

02:33:01.790 --> 02:33:04.030
way that the drive -by truckers play, for instance.

02:33:04.409 --> 02:33:08.370
They're much more organic. And I wouldn't say

02:33:08.370 --> 02:33:12.110
sloppy. They're very tight. But it's much more

02:33:12.110 --> 02:33:15.829
organic and it's much more feeling -based. Vibes,

02:33:15.829 --> 02:33:19.280
I feel like. And I think... That kind of illustrates

02:33:19.280 --> 02:33:21.500
the difference between, I don't know, New York,

02:33:21.600 --> 02:33:25.760
but... I think there's a... But I think it definitely

02:33:25.760 --> 02:33:28.680
highlights what Nashville is all about. Nashville

02:33:28.680 --> 02:33:32.899
is about making the most polished, best version

02:33:32.899 --> 02:33:38.299
of every song. And, you know, there is some merit

02:33:38.299 --> 02:33:41.579
to that. I don't think that's always the wrong

02:33:41.579 --> 02:33:43.379
thing. You just inspired a song. Hold on one

02:33:43.379 --> 02:33:46.930
second. Yeah, please. I was like... I don't know

02:33:46.930 --> 02:33:50.530
what it is, but something about machine and the

02:33:50.530 --> 02:33:55.370
sheen. But there is something about that polished

02:33:55.370 --> 02:33:59.770
perfection, and obviously it's... There we go.

02:34:00.430 --> 02:34:02.430
It's like they talk about the Nashville machine,

02:34:02.590 --> 02:34:05.270
and you talk about that, and there's just so

02:34:05.270 --> 02:34:09.209
much. I guess with the New York, I feel like...

02:34:09.209 --> 02:34:12.209
This is probably not fair, and a lot of people

02:34:12.209 --> 02:34:13.530
in Nashville would probably disagree with me.

02:34:14.369 --> 02:34:17.010
Nobody in Nashville listens to this show. No,

02:34:17.030 --> 02:34:19.790
I'm just kidding. That's right. They're polishing

02:34:19.790 --> 02:34:25.010
something. So I see in New York, I saw a lot

02:34:25.010 --> 02:34:28.190
of stars. I saw a lot of people who had this

02:34:28.190 --> 02:34:32.309
on stage. Right, right. Something dynamic. Yeah.

02:34:33.790 --> 02:34:37.549
I saw people in Nashville who could out -sing,

02:34:37.549 --> 02:34:42.940
out -play, out -core. outside of the like within

02:34:42.940 --> 02:34:45.500
the choreographed technical things who could

02:34:45.500 --> 02:34:48.239
outplay and do anything who could sing like perfection

02:34:48.239 --> 02:34:52.959
but also who did not move me I have been moved

02:34:52.959 --> 02:34:55.920
watching more shows in New York I think if that

02:34:55.920 --> 02:34:58.559
doesn't sum up Nashville music for me I don't

02:34:58.559 --> 02:35:01.079
know what would I think that's like the vibe

02:35:01.079 --> 02:35:03.219
so but it taught me how to with the exception

02:35:03.219 --> 02:35:07.079
of Jason's he's done something really unique

02:35:07.079 --> 02:35:10.250
where He's brought that polish to these really

02:35:10.250 --> 02:35:14.209
deep songs. He's brought some soul to the polish.

02:35:14.770 --> 02:35:18.389
Yeah, it's really unique. His stuff is fantastic.

02:35:18.389 --> 02:35:23.549
It's still not my favorite approach. Sure. I

02:35:23.549 --> 02:35:28.250
remember a guy I dated years ago who was really

02:35:28.250 --> 02:35:30.750
into music, and he was like, I would play something

02:35:30.750 --> 02:35:33.790
I loved, and he would be like, ugh, it's so overproduced,

02:35:33.809 --> 02:35:35.290
and it's so this and it's so that. I didn't really

02:35:35.290 --> 02:35:37.190
know what those things meant. And it was like,

02:35:37.209 --> 02:35:41.450
and now I get it. It's like sometimes that sheen

02:35:41.450 --> 02:35:45.350
and that polish take away the life of the soul

02:35:45.350 --> 02:35:47.010
of what's in there. And some people like it a

02:35:47.010 --> 02:35:48.729
little rough around the edges, a little more,

02:35:48.729 --> 02:35:51.010
like, you know, real. Also, like, you get that

02:35:51.010 --> 02:35:54.190
sheen. Obviously, the precision and amazing technique

02:35:54.190 --> 02:35:57.750
of the players is one thing, but it doesn't always

02:35:57.750 --> 02:36:02.370
feel real, right? I mean. Yeah. No, and it doesn't

02:36:02.370 --> 02:36:05.309
feel real to me at all. I think that's what.

02:36:05.790 --> 02:36:11.270
makes it feel soulless is it becomes so perfect

02:36:11.270 --> 02:36:17.309
that that only somebody like jason can like through

02:36:17.309 --> 02:36:20.649
and make you feel something when it's because

02:36:20.649 --> 02:36:23.229
it's and i think this is true not just about

02:36:23.229 --> 02:36:25.350
country music i think it's true about pop music

02:36:25.350 --> 02:36:29.649
hip -hop like i think when you reach a certain

02:36:29.649 --> 02:36:32.069
level of production and this is why i can't get

02:36:32.069 --> 02:36:35.270
into the AI music thing at all. Regardless of

02:36:35.270 --> 02:36:37.829
any of the morals behind it, it doesn't have

02:36:37.829 --> 02:36:44.510
any soul to it. But I also understand it's so

02:36:44.510 --> 02:36:46.430
appealing to so many people because they've been

02:36:46.430 --> 02:36:50.489
fed music that has no fucking soul for the last

02:36:50.489 --> 02:36:54.770
50 years. On repeat, right? Same 40 songs every

02:36:54.770 --> 02:36:59.530
week. It's crazy. And even now, the car that

02:36:59.530 --> 02:37:01.989
I'm driving has... It doesn't have Bluetooth

02:37:01.989 --> 02:37:03.889
or anything like that, which is like really cool.

02:37:03.989 --> 02:37:06.649
So I could listen to the radio back in the day

02:37:06.649 --> 02:37:09.690
in Tallahassee when I'm here. And so V89. Hell

02:37:09.690 --> 02:37:13.750
yeah. Of course V89. But like sometimes you flip,

02:37:13.930 --> 02:37:16.430
you go through the dial and you're just like,

02:37:16.530 --> 02:37:19.709
what has this become? Like it is just, you know,

02:37:19.750 --> 02:37:21.770
or if I want to feel, if I'm feeling like I want

02:37:21.770 --> 02:37:25.790
to be in a pop, yacht rock, whatever the fuck

02:37:25.790 --> 02:37:28.430
vibe, maybe I'll just star 98, whatever it is.

02:37:28.629 --> 02:37:32.629
That stuff is just the same. it's still a same

02:37:32.629 --> 02:37:34.649
number of songs like i can tell you because i

02:37:34.649 --> 02:37:38.530
i hear the same like ones play like they always

02:37:38.530 --> 02:37:41.229
the top 40 format yeah it's just for whatever

02:37:41.229 --> 02:37:44.090
genre they're using yeah there's so many other

02:37:44.090 --> 02:37:47.450
fuck use ai to find some different fucking songs

02:37:47.450 --> 02:37:51.229
in there there are plenty of them just like i

02:37:51.229 --> 02:37:53.569
used to do this music trivia and a game like

02:37:53.569 --> 02:37:57.170
at a bar here in town and i would have so much

02:37:57.170 --> 02:37:59.989
fun finding all these little songs that like

02:37:59.989 --> 02:38:01.790
everybody would remember them when I'd play them,

02:38:01.829 --> 02:38:04.309
but they hadn't thought of them in fucking years.

02:38:04.629 --> 02:38:08.629
And that was always really fun to me. So you

02:38:08.629 --> 02:38:11.569
get out of Nashville. Yeah. I peace out there.

02:38:11.729 --> 02:38:13.829
And when I feel like I started to like, you know,

02:38:13.850 --> 02:38:15.670
I was like, okay, I'm going to go back to New

02:38:15.670 --> 02:38:17.530
York. I know what I got to do. I started to make

02:38:17.530 --> 02:38:19.190
some new connections. I feel like I'm starting

02:38:19.190 --> 02:38:22.149
to be taken a little more serious. I've met some

02:38:22.149 --> 02:38:24.489
friends in Nashville. I feel a little more comfortable.

02:38:24.930 --> 02:38:27.819
And then like, I got, I'd say that. The way I

02:38:27.819 --> 02:38:30.620
met Matt and the Dialback crew was like stuff

02:38:30.620 --> 02:38:35.879
that never happens. When I got a submission form

02:38:35.879 --> 02:38:39.239
off the website, you know, it would always be

02:38:39.239 --> 02:38:40.799
exciting to me. I'd be like, you've got a new,

02:38:40.920 --> 02:38:43.020
you know, basically somebody's been to your website

02:38:43.020 --> 02:38:45.280
and they fill it out. They want to talk to you.

02:38:45.340 --> 02:38:47.000
And you're like, okay, it's going to happen.

02:38:47.020 --> 02:38:48.479
It's going to be like you're going to play this

02:38:48.479 --> 02:38:51.819
show. And it's actually like somebody, some bot

02:38:51.819 --> 02:38:54.440
or some kind of, you know, company overseeing.

02:38:55.579 --> 02:38:57.840
sell you something that you know some scam whatever

02:38:57.840 --> 02:39:02.100
it is like this one was from matt patent and

02:39:02.100 --> 02:39:05.079
i didn't know i didn't put anything together

02:39:05.079 --> 02:39:06.680
at the point it was just like i got a random

02:39:06.680 --> 02:39:09.219
message maybe it was band camp maybe but it was

02:39:09.219 --> 02:39:11.959
something like band camp or my website and it

02:39:11.959 --> 02:39:15.780
was he was booking for the great dying the buddy

02:39:15.780 --> 02:39:17.559
the guy i was talking about who's on dial back

02:39:17.559 --> 02:39:21.680
will griffith and craig pratt who was playing

02:39:21.680 --> 02:39:25.420
in time and so coming through and Reached out

02:39:25.420 --> 02:39:27.860
to me saying that they were coming through New

02:39:27.860 --> 02:39:31.620
York. He had checked out my stuff on Bandcamp

02:39:31.620 --> 02:39:34.479
and listened to, he particularly mentioned my

02:39:34.479 --> 02:39:36.860
cover of There's a Light That Never Goes Out

02:39:36.860 --> 02:39:41.399
that I had done for The Smiths. And he thought

02:39:41.399 --> 02:39:43.579
that we would be a good match for me to play

02:39:43.579 --> 02:39:47.739
with them and would I be interested. And I was

02:39:47.739 --> 02:39:50.719
like, so instantly I was just like, somebody

02:39:50.719 --> 02:39:52.620
reached out to me. know me and they listened

02:39:52.620 --> 02:39:54.260
to my music and they thought it was good enough

02:39:54.260 --> 02:39:56.280
to talk to me and like they want me to put up

02:39:56.280 --> 02:39:59.620
and i was just like absolutely yes and i was

02:39:59.620 --> 02:40:02.440
like i can't wait then i was like no i think

02:40:02.440 --> 02:40:04.780
i was maybe done some snooping like after that

02:40:04.780 --> 02:40:06.440
i was like who are these people and then he's

02:40:06.440 --> 02:40:08.200
like you know digging around i'm like holy shit

02:40:08.200 --> 02:40:10.719
matt is like the bass player for the drive -by

02:40:10.719 --> 02:40:13.020
truckers and obviously like matt's not gonna

02:40:13.020 --> 02:40:16.899
lead with that and be like But also a lot of

02:40:16.899 --> 02:40:20.600
other people. He's America's bass player. He

02:40:20.600 --> 02:40:23.180
is. I love watching him on stage, too, because

02:40:23.180 --> 02:40:27.639
it brings me so much joy to watch him. He's the

02:40:27.639 --> 02:40:30.459
happiest I've ever seen anybody. He's the happiest.

02:40:31.579 --> 02:40:37.520
I love watching it. I don't get to see that side

02:40:37.520 --> 02:40:39.739
of him so much in conversation and other kind

02:40:39.739 --> 02:40:43.840
of work. Yeah, I asked Taylor. And Taylor is

02:40:43.840 --> 02:40:47.020
just like, that's his happy place. That's his

02:40:47.020 --> 02:40:49.440
happy place. He's not like that all the time.

02:40:50.120 --> 02:40:53.920
It is. It is. Yeah, everybody's got, it's lovely

02:40:53.920 --> 02:40:56.500
to see. It's lovely to see it. Because you can't

02:40:56.500 --> 02:40:58.139
also like. Well, he's the sweetest guy in the

02:40:58.139 --> 02:41:01.899
world. 100%. But he just, I never see anybody

02:41:01.899 --> 02:41:03.940
so happy than when I see Matt Patton on stage.

02:41:04.120 --> 02:41:05.559
I mean, honestly, it kind of reminds me of Jeff

02:41:05.559 --> 02:41:08.799
Stoker, who's like. you know, maybe sometimes

02:41:08.799 --> 02:41:10.579
the same off and on stage, but he played that

02:41:10.579 --> 02:41:12.379
bass when we were in the band. And my mom would

02:41:12.379 --> 02:41:14.360
always say, he just looks so happy. But Matt

02:41:14.360 --> 02:41:16.860
says that same thing. I love watching him. Sometimes

02:41:16.860 --> 02:41:18.780
I'm like, I don't pay attention to the other

02:41:18.780 --> 02:41:20.459
guys because I'm just like, obviously I know

02:41:20.459 --> 02:41:23.440
him, you know, but just seeing that side of him

02:41:23.440 --> 02:41:26.059
that is so obviously authentic. And sometimes

02:41:26.059 --> 02:41:28.500
their songs are pretty dark. Sometimes you need

02:41:28.500 --> 02:41:30.579
to see somebody smiling. Yeah, right. No shit.

02:41:32.100 --> 02:41:35.260
But yeah. One thing that struck me was this,

02:41:35.260 --> 02:41:38.729
like, How you start to get into Americana music

02:41:38.729 --> 02:41:41.229
and the alternative country side of things. Because

02:41:41.229 --> 02:41:43.690
one thing I didn't hear you talking about up

02:41:43.690 --> 02:41:46.170
until now is it's not like you grew up listening

02:41:46.170 --> 02:41:50.950
to Wilco. No. You know what I mean? Those influences

02:41:50.950 --> 02:41:54.030
came in right at the end of high school. But

02:41:54.030 --> 02:41:55.950
you would have eaten that shit up had you been

02:41:55.950 --> 02:41:58.350
exposed to it. Oh, yeah. And when I was in Chicago,

02:41:58.590 --> 02:42:01.510
I had friends who were just like, you need to

02:42:01.510 --> 02:42:05.879
be listening to this. Nico Case is my, after

02:42:05.879 --> 02:42:08.719
Dolly Parton, Nico Case is my number two. She's

02:42:08.719 --> 02:42:11.719
my number 1 .25. Like, I am. Like, the new pornographers

02:42:11.719 --> 02:42:14.420
are one of my fifth fucking period. I would say

02:42:14.420 --> 02:42:17.739
that now that Morrissey is everything, that,

02:42:17.739 --> 02:42:20.940
like, I could say that they're safe, you know,

02:42:21.000 --> 02:42:25.059
one in the top three of my favorite bands. I

02:42:25.059 --> 02:42:27.540
love them. They were, when I heard them the first

02:42:27.540 --> 02:42:29.299
time, I was like, what the fuck is this? I was

02:42:29.299 --> 02:42:30.959
like, I never heard anything like something.

02:42:30.959 --> 02:42:32.440
It's another one of those groups where you just

02:42:32.440 --> 02:42:34.670
have, you have three. Greatest songwriters. So

02:42:34.670 --> 02:42:36.870
good. Like, A .C. Newman is just... Oh, my God.

02:42:37.690 --> 02:42:41.649
When my producer and I, when we started to go

02:42:41.649 --> 02:42:44.850
to record the second record, so A .C. Newman

02:42:44.850 --> 02:42:48.030
was on tour with the New Pornographers in Europe,

02:42:48.090 --> 02:42:51.030
and my buddy and his wife wanted to come. We're

02:42:51.030 --> 02:42:53.850
going to, like, come into the States for the

02:42:53.850 --> 02:42:56.090
summer. And so they did a housing swap kind of

02:42:56.090 --> 02:42:58.489
situation. They're friends with those fuckers

02:42:58.489 --> 02:43:00.909
or whatever, and so, like, basically the... Newman

02:43:00.909 --> 02:43:05.590
and Christina, they all went to stay at Mark's

02:43:05.590 --> 02:43:06.709
house when they were coming through on Sweden.

02:43:06.870 --> 02:43:10.170
So we got three days at their house. They had

02:43:10.170 --> 02:43:14.090
a little studio in his little work shed. I got

02:43:14.090 --> 02:43:15.430
to stay in the guest house, which is apparently

02:43:15.430 --> 02:43:18.090
where Nico Case sleeps. I feel like I'm really

02:43:18.090 --> 02:43:20.790
name -dropping or whatever. It helps the SEO.

02:43:20.969 --> 02:43:25.930
It's fine. It was so cool. For me, Mark was being

02:43:25.930 --> 02:43:27.129
so cool and being like, hey, we're going to go

02:43:27.129 --> 02:43:28.950
to Carl's house. What do you think? I'm just

02:43:28.950 --> 02:43:31.340
like, you know. these are people that i like

02:43:31.340 --> 02:43:34.299
my heroes yeah and so like the idea that i'm

02:43:34.299 --> 02:43:38.540
like in this guy's house in his studio like working

02:43:38.540 --> 02:43:41.000
on it i'm sad that we did that was that was the

02:43:41.000 --> 02:43:43.399
seeds for what eventually is becoming this record

02:43:43.399 --> 02:43:47.100
which has been a long time like i it was surreal

02:43:47.100 --> 02:43:50.020
so those new pornographers were were huge but

02:43:50.020 --> 02:43:53.319
for me and nico case and wilco like was not as

02:43:53.319 --> 02:43:54.760
strong as an influence but definitely like you

02:43:54.760 --> 02:43:56.219
know but this is all you got into this stuff

02:43:56.219 --> 02:43:58.420
like kind of later in life later in life stuff

02:43:58.989 --> 02:44:01.950
And all like, so I'm cramming while I'm playing

02:44:01.950 --> 02:44:04.370
music, kind of like. You are what you listen

02:44:04.370 --> 02:44:07.049
to. Yes, that's it. Thank you, Alicia Walker.

02:44:07.530 --> 02:44:09.430
So I started listening to nothing but Nico King.

02:44:09.670 --> 02:44:12.610
Because I can't not. It's like, I mean, I could

02:44:12.610 --> 02:44:15.309
listen to those records over and over and over

02:44:15.309 --> 02:44:17.469
and over and over again. I am obsessed with them.

02:44:17.469 --> 02:44:19.389
With and without her boyfriends. Yeah, yeah.

02:44:19.430 --> 02:44:22.329
With and without. I actually, I started, I did

02:44:22.329 --> 02:44:26.909
it from New Orleans last week here. And I was

02:44:26.909 --> 02:44:29.540
just like. I was tired and I wanted to listen

02:44:29.540 --> 02:44:30.879
to something, but I wanted to stay awake. And

02:44:30.879 --> 02:44:31.940
I was like, you know what I haven't done? I'm

02:44:31.940 --> 02:44:35.340
just Nico case. I just started with the Virginian

02:44:35.340 --> 02:44:38.840
and went and listened to every record all the

02:44:38.840 --> 02:44:41.940
way. I didn't finish hell on, but I, I, I got

02:44:41.940 --> 02:44:44.420
to Crawfordville. I think I definitely must've

02:44:44.420 --> 02:44:45.780
listened to something in between. Cause those,

02:44:45.780 --> 02:44:48.360
but it was like, just, it was great going through

02:44:48.360 --> 02:44:50.260
the whole thing. I was working at vinyl fever

02:44:50.260 --> 02:44:53.920
when like twin cinema and the golden age. Yeah.

02:44:53.940 --> 02:44:56.799
Like those destroyer records are coming out.

02:44:57.530 --> 02:45:01.510
And, yeah, no, I got to see Dan Behar play a

02:45:01.510 --> 02:45:04.989
solo show. I think it was as Destroyer, but it

02:45:04.989 --> 02:45:08.209
was just him at Club Down Under. Oh, wow. Of

02:45:08.209 --> 02:45:09.989
all places. Oh, that gave me chills, too. And

02:45:09.989 --> 02:45:12.489
I've seen Nico at The Moon, and I've seen AC,

02:45:12.629 --> 02:45:15.750
like, I've seen the new pornographers with, you

02:45:15.750 --> 02:45:19.090
know, as AC Newman, but he didn't have Nico.

02:45:19.209 --> 02:45:22.149
He had Dan Behar, but he didn't have Nico. So

02:45:22.149 --> 02:45:26.329
it's, I've never seen. the full pornographers

02:45:26.329 --> 02:45:29.709
lineup. It's good. Yeah. It's, it's a bucket,

02:45:29.709 --> 02:45:33.750
like it's a bucket list for me for sure. How,

02:45:33.850 --> 02:45:38.190
how does playing a show or some shows translate

02:45:38.190 --> 02:45:40.610
into, okay, I'm putting out my next single on

02:45:40.610 --> 02:45:44.989
that. Yeah. So basically we had the show with

02:45:44.989 --> 02:45:47.510
the great dying. It was right. One of the great,

02:45:47.549 --> 02:45:49.450
we just instantly became very, very close, like

02:45:49.450 --> 02:45:53.309
best friends. They had friends in New York that

02:45:53.309 --> 02:45:55.170
all became very good. close our friends nick

02:45:55.170 --> 02:45:58.069
and nicky it just became like i felt like i was

02:45:58.069 --> 02:46:01.629
suddenly welcomed into this crew then came back

02:46:01.629 --> 02:46:05.309
through we played again and dialed back and we

02:46:05.309 --> 02:46:08.209
had this house show and i was might have had

02:46:08.209 --> 02:46:10.030
a mushroom or two and i was like watching them

02:46:10.030 --> 02:46:12.510
i was they were here for that we had a show next

02:46:12.510 --> 02:46:14.010
night it was a house show and i did not play

02:46:14.010 --> 02:46:15.809
i just went to go see them in our friend's house

02:46:15.809 --> 02:46:17.950
and i was watching them and like having this

02:46:17.950 --> 02:46:20.110
moment the trees were outside in the fall and

02:46:20.110 --> 02:46:22.780
like leaves are coming down and The guys are

02:46:22.780 --> 02:46:24.399
playing and it's beautiful. I start crying. I

02:46:24.399 --> 02:46:26.079
love just thinking to myself, I need to work

02:46:26.079 --> 02:46:27.479
with these guys. I need to make music with these

02:46:27.479 --> 02:46:29.280
guys. I'm going to work with these guys. And

02:46:29.280 --> 02:46:30.979
then Will gets off stage and he's, I just had

02:46:30.979 --> 02:46:32.360
an idea. You know, you need to make a record

02:46:32.360 --> 02:46:35.040
at Dialback. I was like, I was just thinking

02:46:35.040 --> 02:46:40.040
that. So, and then, so, you know, started talking

02:46:40.040 --> 02:46:43.020
about doing that. And it was, you know, it was,

02:46:43.040 --> 02:46:45.399
it was also like Dialback was a different, a

02:46:45.399 --> 02:46:47.819
slightly different setup at that time. There

02:46:47.819 --> 02:46:50.209
was. I won't go into this. It's somebody else's

02:46:50.209 --> 02:46:53.909
story to tell, not mine. But things have changed

02:46:53.909 --> 02:46:56.729
a little bit. The team at Dialbox changed a little

02:46:56.729 --> 02:47:00.930
bit. And so that led to something that, for many

02:47:00.930 --> 02:47:04.389
reasons, took a little longer to get to that

02:47:04.389 --> 02:47:08.629
point. I got you, yeah. Restructuring. Yeah,

02:47:08.629 --> 02:47:13.930
some reconfiguring of things. And so a lot of

02:47:13.930 --> 02:47:17.639
stuff was going on. COVID happened. Just when

02:47:17.639 --> 02:47:19.139
things were starting to get really like where

02:47:19.139 --> 02:47:22.079
I thought to myself. So you linked up with these

02:47:22.079 --> 02:47:26.200
and had the idea to put this out before COVID

02:47:26.200 --> 02:47:30.620
hit. It's around that. I guess right around COVID.

02:47:30.760 --> 02:47:35.139
Like 2021 or whatever. Yes. And I think when

02:47:35.139 --> 02:47:37.399
they first reached out to me, I want to say it

02:47:37.399 --> 02:47:40.059
was 2019. And I had just gotten back. And so

02:47:40.059 --> 02:47:43.360
we played our show and it was 2020. And then

02:47:43.360 --> 02:47:46.739
it like the world. Yeah. Crash. And, like, New

02:47:46.739 --> 02:47:48.239
York was the first. It was, like, basically we

02:47:48.239 --> 02:47:50.659
played a show on February 20th, and by March

02:47:50.659 --> 02:47:53.680
12th, New York was already shut down. I was in

02:47:53.680 --> 02:47:56.360
Atlanta, like, the last day the aquarium was

02:47:56.360 --> 02:47:59.319
open. Like, I was in the aquarium the last night

02:47:59.319 --> 02:48:01.819
they were open. It's 2026 now, and that was 2020.

02:48:01.819 --> 02:48:05.940
That seems crazy. It is. So, yeah. Time is weird.

02:48:06.139 --> 02:48:10.639
It really is. Oh, fuck. But I, like, so maybe,

02:48:10.659 --> 02:48:12.840
like, maybe it's two years after. Or a year and

02:48:12.840 --> 02:48:14.379
a half after that, we're talking seriously about

02:48:14.379 --> 02:48:18.639
making a record. I go down to Mississippi and

02:48:18.639 --> 02:48:22.459
check things out. And then one of my best friends

02:48:22.459 --> 02:48:26.940
got diagnosed with cancer and went from being

02:48:26.940 --> 02:48:30.260
like this 42 -year -old woman, six months later,

02:48:30.379 --> 02:48:33.979
gone. Really aggressive, really awful. Thank

02:48:33.979 --> 02:48:38.379
you. Also, like Emily Wilcher, there's a... for

02:48:38.379 --> 02:48:41.319
her on the record and and i feel like she's been

02:48:41.319 --> 02:48:43.620
a catalyst for me to light a fire in her mind

02:48:43.620 --> 02:48:45.840
like her spirit and her energy because she was

02:48:45.840 --> 02:48:48.500
always a big supporter and right around that

02:48:48.500 --> 02:48:50.780
time was when the time i was i need to get off

02:48:50.780 --> 02:48:52.579
my ass and do this what would emily say right

02:48:52.579 --> 02:48:55.739
now she would tell you that girl what are you

02:48:55.739 --> 02:48:57.719
waiting for and get out there and do your thing

02:48:57.719 --> 02:49:01.159
and and right around that time my buddy asked

02:49:01.159 --> 02:49:03.559
me to go on tour i've been on tour and so like

02:49:03.559 --> 02:49:05.620
i did that i was like i'm gonna do these things

02:49:06.600 --> 02:49:08.120
Start getting more serious about this stuff.

02:49:08.299 --> 02:49:09.739
I'm going to go to Americana Fest. I'm going

02:49:09.739 --> 02:49:11.040
to do, like, this and that. I'm going to make

02:49:11.040 --> 02:49:14.000
this record with Dialback. Record with Dialback

02:49:14.000 --> 02:49:17.040
just took a while to get to for a number of reasons.

02:49:17.959 --> 02:49:19.719
Well, it sounds like you were writing a lot during

02:49:19.719 --> 02:49:20.940
this time, too. Yeah, I was starting to. So,

02:49:20.940 --> 02:49:23.280
like, the record, like, you know, it maybe didn't

02:49:23.280 --> 02:49:25.799
come out or get recorded when you initially planned.

02:49:25.860 --> 02:49:27.799
It's good that it did. It turned out to be a

02:49:27.799 --> 02:49:29.719
totally, maybe a totally different record now.

02:49:30.079 --> 02:49:33.139
Because what happened, honestly, is I was in

02:49:33.139 --> 02:49:35.600
Nashville, and I was like, I don't know what

02:49:35.600 --> 02:49:37.500
I want. I don't have for this record, but I'm

02:49:37.500 --> 02:49:39.120
feeling the anxiety and the push to make something.

02:49:39.920 --> 02:49:41.440
Everything from this record has kind of come

02:49:41.440 --> 02:49:45.659
from the outside in a little bit. And it was

02:49:45.659 --> 02:49:47.260
like, in my head, I could see a record cover

02:49:47.260 --> 02:49:49.440
that I wanted, and I knew that I wanted it. It's

02:49:49.440 --> 02:49:50.879
going to sound so stupid probably right now,

02:49:50.959 --> 02:49:53.059
but hopefully it'll make sense when the LP comes

02:49:53.059 --> 02:49:57.379
out. Fantasy Country was coming to mind. I love

02:49:57.379 --> 02:50:00.579
that. It's inspired by... Lord of the Rings or

02:50:00.579 --> 02:50:05.700
whatever graphic novel I loved as a kid or some

02:50:05.700 --> 02:50:10.799
kind of world that looks like ours, right? But

02:50:10.799 --> 02:50:13.659
that maybe has a little bit of magic in it. Maybe

02:50:13.659 --> 02:50:17.459
there's a vampire. Maybe there's a unicorn. Maybe

02:50:17.459 --> 02:50:18.940
everything else looks the same. I don't know.

02:50:19.200 --> 02:50:23.540
This surreal queer country fantasia world that

02:50:23.540 --> 02:50:27.219
is the embodiment of that I will create the world

02:50:27.219 --> 02:50:32.069
for myself. I did not have like I will have this

02:50:32.069 --> 02:50:34.090
like this hero's journey kind of moment. It's

02:50:34.090 --> 02:50:36.229
like me in a swamp. And instead of me on the

02:50:36.229 --> 02:50:38.069
four wheeler as a kid playing by myself, imagining

02:50:38.069 --> 02:50:40.090
that I'm Luke Skywalker or Princess Leia, depending

02:50:40.090 --> 02:50:43.829
on the fucking day like that, like this is I'll

02:50:43.829 --> 02:50:46.549
create this world of like fantasy country, whatever

02:50:46.549 --> 02:50:49.629
that fucking mean. And it'll be like just like

02:50:49.629 --> 02:50:53.530
about like queer stories or not or women's stories

02:50:53.530 --> 02:50:55.649
or whatever stories. It's just different from

02:50:55.649 --> 02:50:58.020
that. It'll it'll be where. Nothing is out of

02:50:58.020 --> 02:51:01.360
place here. Everything is welcome here, and that

02:51:01.360 --> 02:51:03.260
reflects in the sounds. I want stuff that, like,

02:51:03.299 --> 02:51:07.299
I want Brian May on a Dolly Parton song. I want,

02:51:07.299 --> 02:51:10.180
like, I want these different things to come together,

02:51:10.280 --> 02:51:12.700
and I'm not going to, I don't care if he tells

02:51:12.700 --> 02:51:15.920
me, especially if it's, like, a music snobby

02:51:15.920 --> 02:51:17.180
person who's going to be like, well, that feels

02:51:17.180 --> 02:51:19.479
very, like, cliche, or that feels very this,

02:51:19.659 --> 02:51:21.639
or that feels very opulent. I'm like, you know,

02:51:21.639 --> 02:51:23.440
bitch, that's what I want, opulent. I want to,

02:51:23.440 --> 02:51:27.069
like, have the, I want to have the... whatever,

02:51:27.190 --> 02:51:30.549
I want to have that world come to life. But I

02:51:30.549 --> 02:51:32.370
had no content for that, nor did I know what

02:51:32.370 --> 02:51:35.610
that was going to be. And it sounds like, regardless

02:51:35.610 --> 02:51:42.729
of, it's all very intentional. Yeah. I wanted

02:51:42.729 --> 02:51:44.329
it to be, and I definitely felt like it was happening

02:51:44.329 --> 02:51:46.170
to me, and I was trying to follow breadcrumbs

02:51:46.170 --> 02:51:48.690
to get to where it was, but never really felt

02:51:48.690 --> 02:51:50.510
like it. For a long time, I was like, what the

02:51:50.510 --> 02:51:52.409
fuck are these songs? How does this mean anything?

02:51:52.750 --> 02:51:55.940
This is a great idea. Like, in terms of, like,

02:51:55.979 --> 02:51:58.020
I mean, I liked the idea. I liked the idea of

02:51:58.020 --> 02:52:00.520
some weird fantasy country vibe. Like, what does

02:52:00.520 --> 02:52:02.219
that mean? And, like, if you're, and then I'd

02:52:02.219 --> 02:52:03.559
write a song that I liked, and I'd be like, this

02:52:03.559 --> 02:52:04.840
is definitely going to be a song on the record,

02:52:04.920 --> 02:52:07.200
but how is this, what does this mean? How does

02:52:07.200 --> 02:52:08.319
this have anything to do with what you're talking

02:52:08.319 --> 02:52:10.680
about? And I'm just like, I'm just going to stop

02:52:10.680 --> 02:52:12.600
listening to that side of myself and just put

02:52:12.600 --> 02:52:14.200
my foot in front of the other and continue doing

02:52:14.200 --> 02:52:17.700
what I'm doing because this is just ideas. There's

02:52:17.700 --> 02:52:19.540
nothing set in stone. I'm kind of following those

02:52:19.540 --> 02:52:26.469
breadcrumbs. And so it started. It starts to

02:52:26.469 --> 02:52:28.870
make sense to me now, like in ways it's really

02:52:28.870 --> 02:52:31.389
fascinating for me because being aware that I

02:52:31.389 --> 02:52:34.510
had nothing to show for my idea other than like

02:52:34.510 --> 02:52:37.209
some images and some ideas that didn't really

02:52:37.209 --> 02:52:40.969
seem to go together. And trusting that process

02:52:40.969 --> 02:52:42.610
and just like writing and letting things flow

02:52:42.610 --> 02:52:45.530
and then like, oh, there are patterns here. And

02:52:45.530 --> 02:52:48.670
maybe the answers aren't clear like at first,

02:52:48.670 --> 02:52:50.590
but they become clear and you're like, oh, like

02:52:50.590 --> 02:52:52.909
what you're doing is creating this. I remember

02:52:52.909 --> 02:52:56.350
talking to Matt or his former partner before

02:52:56.350 --> 02:53:01.430
now and trying to explain what the record was

02:53:01.430 --> 02:53:02.950
about and trying to explain this silly idea.

02:53:02.989 --> 02:53:04.350
And I think it's just a record about learning

02:53:04.350 --> 02:53:09.129
how to love yourself. And there's something that

02:53:09.129 --> 02:53:11.750
throws journey about it. And all this sounds,

02:53:11.909 --> 02:53:15.829
it's not new territory. Nothing groundbreaking

02:53:15.829 --> 02:53:18.389
about it. No, but it goes back to what we were

02:53:18.389 --> 02:53:20.309
talking about earlier. As long as it's authentic

02:53:20.309 --> 02:53:24.850
to you. but when you're so deep in it it's hard

02:53:24.850 --> 02:53:28.309
to see how it can all come together especially

02:53:28.309 --> 02:53:31.229
when it is coming like from a really personal

02:53:31.229 --> 02:53:33.530
place but then when you put it out there and

02:53:33.530 --> 02:53:36.709
it's perceived by others the fact that it's all

02:53:36.709 --> 02:53:41.069
so tied to this one person and comes from this

02:53:41.069 --> 02:53:44.149
honest place i think gives it that unification

02:53:45.260 --> 02:53:47.799
that you can't see when you're in it and making

02:53:47.799 --> 02:53:49.879
it. 100%. When you're in the weeds like that,

02:53:49.979 --> 02:53:52.639
you've got to get that balcony or have somebody

02:53:52.639 --> 02:53:56.620
else get away from it. We're playing this Friday

02:53:56.620 --> 02:54:00.799
at the Flickr. This Friday as in... I mean, it's

02:54:00.799 --> 02:54:02.879
actually... We're recording this the week before.

02:54:03.159 --> 02:54:06.500
But this Friday at Flickr as part of the Dial

02:54:06.500 --> 02:54:10.079
Back Showcase that happens now every year at...

02:54:10.779 --> 02:54:12.879
Is this going to be your first time going to

02:54:12.879 --> 02:54:15.239
the Drive -By Truckers Homecoming shows? Yeah,

02:54:15.299 --> 02:54:17.020
this is my first. I've been to several other

02:54:17.020 --> 02:54:21.180
shows, but not to the Heathens Homecoming. I

02:54:21.180 --> 02:54:23.780
will tell you, this will be like my 17th. Oh,

02:54:23.780 --> 02:54:28.079
yes, play more. I don't know what I can tell

02:54:28.079 --> 02:54:31.180
you except that it's not like any of their other

02:54:31.180 --> 02:54:35.840
shows. There is something about that room, about

02:54:35.840 --> 02:54:39.180
the people that come. mostly about the people

02:54:39.180 --> 02:54:42.700
that come really, you know, like what's amazing

02:54:42.700 --> 02:54:46.959
to me about this group of people is like, some

02:54:46.959 --> 02:54:49.940
of us don't even talk throughout the year very

02:54:49.940 --> 02:54:55.100
much, but it's like, we picked back up and known

02:54:55.100 --> 02:54:59.139
each other 10, 15 years now. And some of us have

02:54:59.139 --> 02:55:00.860
only known each other four or five years. Some

02:55:00.860 --> 02:55:02.579
of you still meet each other for the first time

02:55:02.579 --> 02:55:05.379
next week. Cause it is always rotating a little

02:55:05.379 --> 02:55:09.229
bit. People were getting older. When I started

02:55:09.229 --> 02:55:11.010
going, I was the youngest one there. I started

02:55:11.010 --> 02:55:14.649
going on my early 20s. And everybody else was

02:55:14.649 --> 02:55:18.870
in their 30s, 40s. And I was the baby. Yeah,

02:55:18.870 --> 02:55:24.010
I was the baby, 100%. And now it's like, it's

02:55:24.010 --> 02:55:27.450
a much more, there's a lot more people my age.

02:55:27.629 --> 02:55:30.850
But they weren't there then. So it's just weird.

02:55:30.989 --> 02:55:34.750
Well, it's cool to be in that, to see that. Well,

02:55:34.750 --> 02:55:36.959
a lot of it's. The people are bringing their

02:55:36.959 --> 02:55:40.700
kids. Always. And I'm like in this weird in -between

02:55:40.700 --> 02:55:43.360
spot age -wise. I feel like a lot of the people

02:55:43.360 --> 02:55:45.620
that have been coming for years and years are

02:55:45.620 --> 02:55:48.739
like five or ten years, at least more like ten

02:55:48.739 --> 02:55:50.860
years older than me. And then a lot of the other

02:55:50.860 --> 02:55:52.700
people are like five, ten years younger than

02:55:52.700 --> 02:55:56.219
me. In a sweet spot. This weird little... But

02:55:56.219 --> 02:56:00.559
what's amazing to me, it almost reminds me of

02:56:00.559 --> 02:56:04.340
how our cells completely regenerate every seven

02:56:04.340 --> 02:56:08.059
years. but we're still us. That's kind of what

02:56:08.059 --> 02:56:09.540
it feels like. I love that analogy. That's so

02:56:09.540 --> 02:56:11.319
cool. That's kind of what it feels like. It's

02:56:11.319 --> 02:56:14.139
like even, you know, there's a lot of people

02:56:14.139 --> 02:56:18.659
that were foundational to us being as organized

02:56:18.659 --> 02:56:20.899
as we are and raising the amount of money that

02:56:20.899 --> 02:56:25.159
we do. Like shout out to Hank, Hank Matthews,

02:56:25.159 --> 02:56:28.280
who was, he's no longer with us, but he was one

02:56:28.280 --> 02:56:31.940
of the like backbones of the community. And then

02:56:31.940 --> 02:56:35.209
when he passed away, other people, really stepped

02:56:35.209 --> 02:56:39.549
up and, and, and to see it recycle and maintain

02:56:39.549 --> 02:56:43.010
its identity all at the same time is really,

02:56:43.069 --> 02:56:44.850
it's, it's a beautiful thing. Beautiful. Like

02:56:44.850 --> 02:56:47.430
the way you put that too. That's really special.

02:56:47.610 --> 02:56:52.569
I feel really lucky. Be a part of it. You have

02:56:52.569 --> 02:56:56.829
a mutual friend named Craig who I grew up with.

02:56:56.850 --> 02:56:59.090
He was like one of those people like turning

02:56:59.090 --> 02:57:01.870
me on. Like he bought, he gave me my first fucking

02:57:01.870 --> 02:57:05.870
slobber bone record. 20 something years ago and

02:57:05.870 --> 02:57:08.790
I finally got to see Slobberbone at Shoals Fest

02:57:08.790 --> 02:57:14.309
like four years ago but we were watching I think

02:57:14.309 --> 02:57:18.030
it was the Black Eyes Verite concert that they

02:57:18.030 --> 02:57:21.030
filmed and it's on like Amazon Prime you can

02:57:21.030 --> 02:57:24.270
watch it but it's over and he looks at me and

02:57:24.270 --> 02:57:29.389
he's crying and he's like I've been looking for

02:57:29.389 --> 02:57:33.190
what you found my Higher life. He's like, I'm

02:57:33.190 --> 02:57:36.729
fucking jealous. He's like, I'm like, God damn

02:57:36.729 --> 02:57:41.430
it. That's beautiful. I'm really excited to have

02:57:41.430 --> 02:57:47.590
you there. I'm also excited to have some of my

02:57:47.590 --> 02:57:52.250
part of the South represented up there. The truckers

02:57:52.250 --> 02:57:54.590
have not played very many shows in Tallahassee.

02:57:54.649 --> 02:57:57.909
They don't get a lot of love here. They've played

02:57:57.909 --> 02:58:00.250
here and not a lot of people came. They've played

02:58:00.250 --> 02:58:03.770
here. I used to see Jason play solo to 20 people.

02:58:04.889 --> 02:58:08.709
I've talked to, it's not always, the stop don't

02:58:08.709 --> 02:58:10.629
always make the most sense for people at a certain.

02:58:10.850 --> 02:58:15.250
But on the other hand, Chuck Reese curates it

02:58:15.250 --> 02:58:18.489
from Southerner and now Salvation South, curates

02:58:18.489 --> 02:58:21.409
a stage at Word of South every year. And one

02:58:21.409 --> 02:58:24.989
year it included Hood, Patterson Hood, the whole

02:58:24.989 --> 02:58:27.750
Spooner Oldham, like all of the old Muscle Shoals

02:58:27.750 --> 02:58:31.479
guys coming in and playing a bunch of. eddie

02:58:31.479 --> 02:58:34.700
hinton songs wow and it's like one of those things

02:58:34.700 --> 02:58:37.319
that goes down in history in this in this community

02:58:37.319 --> 02:58:41.440
and it happened here here so it's that's the

02:58:41.440 --> 02:58:44.760
kind of like i don't i don't understand why it

02:58:44.760 --> 02:58:47.459
happened here it was a pretty packed room it

02:58:47.459 --> 02:58:49.979
got moved indoors because of the weather but

02:58:49.979 --> 02:58:55.880
it's really cool to me to see this of our little

02:58:55.880 --> 02:58:59.139
enclave of the Big Bend, the Florida Panhandle,

02:58:59.139 --> 02:59:01.399
the Forgotten Coast, whatever the fuck you want

02:59:01.399 --> 02:59:06.639
to call it, be brought into all this. Yeah, it

02:59:06.639 --> 02:59:10.079
feels very exciting. Just listening to you talk

02:59:10.079 --> 02:59:14.659
about it, put it to me in a way that when you're

02:59:14.659 --> 02:59:17.780
doing it and trying to do it, I definitely have

02:59:17.780 --> 02:59:21.579
hometown pride and stuff like that, but to have...

02:59:23.389 --> 02:59:27.170
I don't know how to articulate this, but that's

02:59:27.170 --> 02:59:29.750
like touching and gives me like juice because

02:59:29.750 --> 02:59:32.090
I don't think about it in terms of, I think about

02:59:32.090 --> 02:59:34.270
it in terms of I want more representation for

02:59:34.270 --> 02:59:36.409
me and my friends and then the people that I

02:59:36.409 --> 02:59:38.250
think do great from this area and like having

02:59:38.250 --> 02:59:41.670
that, but like also the people here are proud

02:59:41.670 --> 02:59:44.709
of that and having, I don't know, having that

02:59:44.709 --> 02:59:46.750
inclusive, having being included in that world.

02:59:47.680 --> 02:59:50.399
When Matt reached out to me to ask me about the

02:59:50.399 --> 02:59:52.399
show, it's so funny because he texted me and

02:59:52.399 --> 02:59:54.440
he was just like, I was going to ask you about

02:59:54.440 --> 02:59:57.479
this. I know it's a long trip because I was in

02:59:57.479 --> 02:59:58.860
Brooklyn. I assumed he thought I was going to

02:59:58.860 --> 03:00:03.040
be there during the time. I guess I wouldn't

03:00:03.040 --> 03:00:08.059
do this. Of course, I didn't understand at the

03:00:08.059 --> 03:00:09.440
time that it was part of Ethan's homecoming.

03:00:09.459 --> 03:00:11.379
He just said, I've got the showcase, whatever.

03:00:11.979 --> 03:00:18.079
But the casual and generosity. of him and bringing

03:00:18.079 --> 03:00:21.760
me to, I have never had anybody other than like,

03:00:21.760 --> 03:00:25.440
and friends and stuff like that. No, no body

03:00:25.440 --> 03:00:29.500
like Matt share any interest in what I'm doing.

03:00:29.739 --> 03:00:33.760
So like to have somebody, maybe the only person

03:00:33.760 --> 03:00:36.159
who's cold reach out outreach to me like that,

03:00:36.260 --> 03:00:39.280
have it be somebody who is working on it when

03:00:39.280 --> 03:00:42.079
such a great band and multiple great bands and

03:00:42.079 --> 03:00:43.879
who has this mission to help people out. The

03:00:43.879 --> 03:00:47.299
fact that he's willing to. invest any of his

03:00:47.299 --> 03:00:49.540
time and resources in me and been so welcoming

03:00:49.540 --> 03:00:52.559
and the fact that i get to play this like i get

03:00:52.559 --> 03:00:55.500
to release my first record under my own name

03:00:55.500 --> 03:00:57.780
fulfilling like a dream i'm super excited about

03:00:57.780 --> 03:01:01.379
it but i get to also have my release day show

03:01:01.379 --> 03:01:05.239
as a pre -party for like the fucking drive -by

03:01:05.239 --> 03:01:09.579
truckers right it it's like i don't it's like

03:01:09.579 --> 03:01:11.120
one of the things that i intellectually understand

03:01:11.120 --> 03:01:14.440
like i don't have my my body is still like catching

03:01:14.440 --> 03:01:16.989
up to it yeah yeah right It's been like, I've

03:01:16.989 --> 03:01:22.030
just, I pinched myself a lot. Just that somebody

03:01:22.030 --> 03:01:27.930
is championing anything that we're doing. So

03:01:27.930 --> 03:01:30.790
it's amazing. I'll say that he's also pretty

03:01:30.790 --> 03:01:34.489
fucking smart. Putting you in front of the perfect

03:01:34.489 --> 03:01:39.790
audience. Sure. I mean, I'm, I'm, cannot wait.

03:01:41.280 --> 03:01:44.100
I Don't Give a Fuck is streaming on Friday. Yeah,

03:01:44.100 --> 03:01:46.840
streaming everywhere. If you're listening to

03:01:46.840 --> 03:01:49.360
this, it's either about to come out or it just

03:01:49.360 --> 03:01:51.700
came out or it's been out for years. Who knows?

03:01:52.360 --> 03:01:55.379
But when is the full album? Do you have a state

03:01:55.379 --> 03:01:57.459
for that? We don't have a firm release date.

03:01:57.500 --> 03:02:00.739
We have a targeted area. I think late summer,

03:02:00.899 --> 03:02:03.940
early fall is what we're looking for to have

03:02:03.940 --> 03:02:07.260
everything out and have it play on vinyl. And

03:02:07.260 --> 03:02:12.739
we did 10 songs. We track 10 songs. I think nine

03:02:12.739 --> 03:02:14.120
of them are going to make it onto the record.

03:02:14.540 --> 03:02:18.100
And right now we're just in the middle. We're

03:02:18.100 --> 03:02:21.920
trying to finish up overdubs. It's taken. They're

03:02:21.920 --> 03:02:23.959
used to at Dialback doing things like going in

03:02:23.959 --> 03:02:27.379
with a band and capturing everything live and

03:02:27.379 --> 03:02:30.120
getting that mix on their big, beautiful analog

03:02:30.120 --> 03:02:34.260
board. And we went in with pretty straight down.

03:02:34.379 --> 03:02:37.600
It was like me and Matt on bass and Bradley Gordon

03:02:37.600 --> 03:02:42.370
on drums. He's a local. He's a sweetheart. acoustic

03:02:42.370 --> 03:02:45.010
guitar and singing and we captured you know we

03:02:45.010 --> 03:02:47.430
just went through and knocked him out and a few

03:02:47.430 --> 03:02:51.430
days in water valley and with starlin brown browning

03:02:51.430 --> 03:02:54.090
who's a awesome engineer and co -producer and

03:02:54.090 --> 03:02:56.969
then we've been doing overdub world to bring

03:02:56.969 --> 03:02:59.969
the rest of it to life which is at first i thought

03:02:59.969 --> 03:03:03.409
was going to be real fun and it has been really

03:03:03.409 --> 03:03:06.950
great but i don't communicate with people very

03:03:06.950 --> 03:03:08.809
well when it comes to my ideas i talk about my

03:03:08.809 --> 03:03:12.559
music ideas and like colors or cinema or like

03:03:12.559 --> 03:03:15.620
you know feelings and uh still learning like

03:03:15.620 --> 03:03:18.680
the right vocabulary so like doing that remotely

03:03:18.680 --> 03:03:22.100
and also working with new people it's like i

03:03:22.100 --> 03:03:25.200
we've matt's introduced me to so many great people

03:03:25.200 --> 03:03:29.420
and luckily we've all learned to work around

03:03:29.420 --> 03:03:31.420
my quirks and my craziness and like you know

03:03:31.420 --> 03:03:34.229
you find people who like You can talk to and

03:03:34.229 --> 03:03:36.530
describe something musically in terms of something.

03:03:36.670 --> 03:03:37.569
And they get it. And they're like, oh, you mean

03:03:37.569 --> 03:03:39.790
like this? And everyone's like, yes, Ryan Jewell.

03:03:41.290 --> 03:03:43.049
There's just so many great people on this song,

03:03:43.190 --> 03:03:46.670
on the whole record. But Jay is on there for

03:03:46.670 --> 03:03:51.170
the song, plays Farfisa organ. Obviously, Matt

03:03:51.170 --> 03:03:54.090
is the co -producer and bass player. And Marissa

03:03:54.090 --> 03:03:57.409
Paternoster, who is an amazing, amazing guitarist

03:03:57.409 --> 03:04:00.829
in New Jersey, who was previously part of the

03:04:00.829 --> 03:04:04.340
Screaming Females. So that was, like, a delight.

03:04:04.520 --> 03:04:06.020
Like, I got connected to her through my friend

03:04:06.020 --> 03:04:07.940
Paisley Fields, and then Matt brought in the

03:04:07.940 --> 03:04:10.979
other folks. Like I said, Ryan Jewell from Ohio

03:04:10.979 --> 03:04:13.079
is just amazing. He played drums for Riley Walker,

03:04:13.180 --> 03:04:15.239
I think, for the Drive -By Truckers. Matt was

03:04:15.239 --> 03:04:17.340
like, man, who's all this guy? I don't know,

03:04:17.440 --> 03:04:20.040
just the guy for this. I think, like, play with

03:04:20.040 --> 03:04:23.860
Riley Walker. Man, he's good. It's not a bad

03:04:23.860 --> 03:04:27.579
impression. I'm working on it. People who have

03:04:27.579 --> 03:04:31.280
just... taken such good care. Kel Kellum is amazing

03:04:31.280 --> 03:04:33.079
pedal steel. He'll be all over the record. He's

03:04:33.079 --> 03:04:36.200
a Mississippi guy. Hope I'm not missing anybody

03:04:36.200 --> 03:04:40.760
on that. It's exciting to have these songs that

03:04:40.760 --> 03:04:43.000
you've never heard fleshed out because I've been

03:04:43.000 --> 03:04:45.819
playing everything solo. To have these strangers

03:04:45.819 --> 03:04:48.100
come and find your people and bring it all to

03:04:48.100 --> 03:04:51.120
life. That was my next question. Do you have

03:04:51.120 --> 03:04:53.840
any plans to get together a live band? Want to

03:04:53.840 --> 03:04:55.299
just play solo? I would love to play with the

03:04:55.299 --> 03:04:57.420
band every night of the week. Logistics are the

03:04:57.420 --> 03:05:00.739
only reason. Logistics and budget are kind of

03:05:00.739 --> 03:05:03.200
the thing. I'm so excited. I get to play with

03:05:03.200 --> 03:05:06.579
Kel, who's Pedal Steel. I'm going to play in

03:05:06.579 --> 03:05:09.840
Mississippi the week after next. I'm going to

03:05:09.840 --> 03:05:12.840
play in Thacker Mountain Radio, which is in Water

03:05:12.840 --> 03:05:15.700
Valley this time, and Proud Larry is in Oxford.

03:05:17.120 --> 03:05:20.399
I know Proud Larry. My buddy Cody plays there

03:05:20.399 --> 03:05:23.329
a lot. Cody Shade Harrell. I know that name,

03:05:23.370 --> 03:05:26.950
yeah. He's Dick Burnside's bass player. But I

03:05:26.950 --> 03:05:29.090
grew up with him. He's been on the show, too.

03:05:29.290 --> 03:05:33.690
Great place. Played his show here. Anyway, we

03:05:33.690 --> 03:05:37.229
could talk all day, and we're going to – I think

03:05:37.229 --> 03:05:39.270
we might have gotten the folks to Athens, though.

03:05:40.090 --> 03:05:42.870
You're going to tour, it sounds like. You're

03:05:42.870 --> 03:05:44.610
going to be on tour. I'm releasing this record.

03:05:44.649 --> 03:05:46.309
I'm going to be on tour as much as I can be on

03:05:46.309 --> 03:05:51.260
the road. I got a lot of shows. I'll be in Tallahassee.

03:05:51.799 --> 03:05:54.940
Yeah, The Bark on February 25th. Yeah, and then,

03:05:54.979 --> 03:05:58.239
like, I'll be at Fingers Cross Pride Fest. I'm

03:05:58.239 --> 03:06:01.700
doing South by Southwest. I'm going to California

03:06:01.700 --> 03:06:03.860
in April. I'm doing a little Florida, a couple

03:06:03.860 --> 03:06:06.540
of Florida tours with an awesome band named Cooper

03:06:06.540 --> 03:06:10.860
in Gainesville and Short Sack. Trying to keep

03:06:10.860 --> 03:06:12.540
myself, trying to just get out there, and now

03:06:12.540 --> 03:06:14.500
that I can tell people that they can find my

03:06:14.500 --> 03:06:17.059
music by my actual fucking name. Well, it's been

03:06:17.059 --> 03:06:18.620
really awesome talking to you, Wiley. Thank you

03:06:18.620 --> 03:06:20.379
so much. Thanks for being here. Is there anything

03:06:20.379 --> 03:06:22.159
else you want to say before we wrap this up?

03:06:22.940 --> 03:06:26.120
Just a big thanks to Mom and Dad and my family,

03:06:26.180 --> 03:06:29.799
and also to Matt and all the Dial Back crew,

03:06:29.940 --> 03:06:33.079
everybody who worked on this record, and all

03:06:33.079 --> 03:06:34.659
my friends and family for putting up with me,

03:06:34.719 --> 03:06:37.559
and I hope you all like the music. We'll love

03:06:37.559 --> 03:06:40.139
it. We'll see you all at Flickr on Friday. We'll

03:06:40.139 --> 03:06:42.399
see you come down. If you're in Tallahassee,

03:06:42.420 --> 03:06:45.200
come out to the Bark on February 25th. There's

03:06:45.200 --> 03:06:46.979
links to all kinds of stuff in the description

03:06:46.979 --> 03:06:49.799
of this episode. It's been awesome. Thanks for

03:06:49.799 --> 03:06:51.079
being here. Thank you so much. Thank you for

03:06:51.079 --> 03:06:53.260
having me. This has been awesome. That was my

03:06:53.260 --> 03:06:56.100
interview with Wiley Gaby. It was a long one.

03:06:56.139 --> 03:06:58.219
I hope you enjoyed it, but we got into all kinds

03:06:58.219 --> 03:06:59.979
of stuff. I didn't really want to cut anything

03:06:59.979 --> 03:07:06.079
out. If you're in Athens on Tuesday, the... I'll

03:07:06.079 --> 03:07:08.139
be at Flickr Bar doing a short set. Come say

03:07:08.139 --> 03:07:11.840
hey. Otherwise, we'll see you at the Rock Show,

03:07:11.959 --> 03:07:15.340
y 'all. Be safe out there. And if you're enjoying

03:07:15.340 --> 03:07:17.780
this podcast, please check out the Patreon link

03:07:17.780 --> 03:07:21.120
in the description of this episode and on the

03:07:21.120 --> 03:07:24.040
description of our page. It's just a way for

03:07:24.040 --> 03:07:26.959
us to try and make this podcast sustainable.

03:07:27.680 --> 03:07:29.879
I do everything from the booking, producing,

03:07:30.100 --> 03:07:33.079
editing, and releasing and marketing of this

03:07:33.079 --> 03:07:37.100
podcast. I'm really trying to make this something

03:07:37.100 --> 03:07:39.840
that I can keep going for the long haul thanks

03:07:39.840 --> 03:07:43.280
for listening hit that subscribe button we'll

03:07:43.280 --> 03:07:43.920
see you next week