I just need to get a cab from wherever I am.
And I get off the train platform and I reach
my hand back through my pocket and it goes straight
clean through my pocket. So they had, they cut
down. I was asleep and apparently they cut down
the side of it, slipped the pocket out. And so
like my wallet was gone, everything. Then I tried
to get back on the train platform and they won't
let me on because I don't have a ticket. Hey,
y 'all. It's homecoming week for you drive -by
truckers fans out there like me. We got a lot
going on this week, too. It's a really exciting
week here. We got Wiley Gaby here. Wiley Gaby
is... One of the newest members to Dial Back
Sound. Their single comes out this Friday, February
13th, on all streaming platforms. They're playing
the Dial Back Sound showcase at Flickr before
the show at the 40 Watt this Friday, too. So
make sure you come on by for that and check him
out, man. We had the best talk. It's a long one.
But there's a couple other things I want to tell
you about. Sloan Brothers' new record, Love Another
Diagnosis, comes out this Friday as well. There's
going to be a special talk at Cine. If you're
in Athens for Drive -By Truckers Homecoming,
make sure you come out to that. It's going to
be really cool. Glenn Rosher is heading that
up. Jay is going to play some songs off of the
new Sloan Brothers record, Jay Gonzalez's. It's
going to be a really great time. Make sure you
come check that out. Also, February 27th at the
Blue Tavern, we got Danny Bedrosian presented
by this podcast. performing P -Funk songs from
1975 based on his new book, Make My Funk the
P -Funk. And then on April 11th at Phipps Park
in Tallahassee, there's the P -Funk Fest. I'm
going to be there covering that event. We're
going to do some live broadcasts from that event.
Going to be interviewing all kinds of members
of the Parliament Funkadelic family. So make
sure you hit that subscribe button. Please like
this episode if you like it. Drive safe to Athens
if you're heading there. And if you're not, I
hope you at least... Have some fun doing whatever
you do this weekend. Thanks for listening, and
here's my interview with Wiley Gaby. We're on
Overeducated and Underemployed. I'm here with
Wiley Gaby, and I'm going to just start by asking
you the same question I ask everybody that's
on here. What's the first song that you remember
loving as a kid? Oh, Lord. Just a Swingin' by
John Anderson. I think that's just a swing. I
used to sing that all the time, and my parents
would have me sing it for other people. You were
very sure, too. You didn't even hesitate. Yeah.
It's like for a large portion of my childhood,
they would have me just sing that song, and that
was a song that I sang as my little three -year
-old entertaining self before I was aware. I
guess I just really loved that song. You don't
even necessarily remember it. It's just like
you've been told that. I definitely remember
singing it at times, and I remember changing
the names to my quote -unquote girlfriend at
the time. My best friend who was like, I guess
maybe when I was four, she was three, Allison
Dotson. Anyway, the song is, There's a little
girl in our neighborhood. Her name is Charlotte
Johnson. I would sing Allison Dotson. Anyway.
I remember that song now that you're singing.
I'm like, okay. I remember that song. It's not
an amazing song. It is amazing. I love you, John
Anderson. It is. But it's a very simple song.
It's got very simple lyrics. That was my first
cover hit. So you were in love with music right
away then? I think so, yeah. Dolly Parton and
me singing. Apparently my mom would tell me that
I would sing to myself and soothe myself with
just nonsense sounds and musical stuff when I
was in the stroller. But I definitely, I don't
remember a time that it wasn't like just something
that was, I was doing or just did naturally.
I feel like still even I just walk around the
house singing and making sounds, which probably
drives everybody I know crazy. When did you like
become aware of that? Because it sounds like
it's almost like an eight. It feels that way.
I definitely. My parents, who've always been
pretty supportive, very supportive, I think they
noticed something. And my dad is very much, I
think that made him proud. So he'd be like, get
up there and sing a song. Look what he can do,
kind of thing. And so I got that praise probably,
which I'm sure I did not hate. I'm sure I liked
that attention. But also, it just, so I was encouraged.
And we went to church regularly, so that was
like. You'd see that in church, and I'd see certain
ladies singing, and we had a couple of really
great singers, and I remember one lady, Mina
Sutton, who would sing, and I'd be like, oh,
I want to do what she's doing. I'm going to do
that. So did you start singing in the church?
Pretty as soon as I could. My first time on stage
in a play and singing was in a church musical
when I was like six or seven years old. And I
was like, this is it for me. I'll be doing this.
So was it musicals for you at first? Was that
kind of your first love of performing? Yeah,
I think I would say that my first love in that
world was Dolly Parton. And I think that started
like very young. So I wanted to, I'm sure that
was part of me that wanted to be her. And that
was my like touchstone in a lot of ways. And
so. And that always, whatever she was doing was,
like, interesting to me. I wanted to, at about
eight years old, I think I wanted to do it all.
I would be like, I'm going to be a country music
singer, and I'm going to be an actor, and I'm
going to be a writer, and I'm going to be these
five other things. You're watching her movies
and stuff, too. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. The only
one I don't think I could watch was The Best
Little Whorehouse in Texas. Yeah. But that was
all of that. There was... My first tape I ever
got, I was like three or four, maybe fourth birthday.
I was at the beach with my grandma and she gave
me this Dolly Parton Greatest Hits cassette that
I've had ever since. And that was like on constant
repeat. But yes, musicals, that was something
that I was interested in too. But there was also
the part of me that was like very much from a
young age, I want to be a country music singer.
I want to do what Dolly Parton's doing. And there
was something about, it almost seemed like something
about like the stardom of it all to the fact
that she had so many different, talents. She
could do all that stuff. One of my favorite little
stories or facts about Dolly is that she wrote
Jolene and I Will Always Love You in the Afternoon.
That just blows my mind. Two of the greatest
songs ever written. I think I've heard you do
a cover of Jolene. Yeah, I used to do it all
the time. I've tried to give people a break from
it but because it's been covered by a lot of
folks but I try not to do it I used to have a
rule that I wouldn't do any set without Dolly
Parton song one Dolly Parton cover one in there
yeah I always loved White Stripes cover oh so
good that's one of my favorite just covers period
He did such a good job. And everything he did
with Loretta Lamb was so great. I know, that
Van Leer Road album is, oh my gosh. I love that
record so much. I'm going to listen to it on
the way to Athens. That sounds like some good
road music. So what are some of the early musicals
that you really loved, aside from Dolly? I love
musicals too, so I'm just curious. Mary Poppins
was big for me. That's also very big into when
my parents... I was obsessed with Mary Poppins
and also women have always been my heroes. So
like Julie Andrews as that role, the whole thing,
there was something magical still about her.
That performance, that movie is still pretty
much perfect. But I was in the hunting woods
with my dad and singing, doing all the accents
and singing all the parts to It's a Jolly Holiday
with Mary or something like that. And they put
me in voice lessons right around that time. And
my voice teacher was like, what do you want to
learn? And I was like, Mary Poppins. That's it.
So we got the songbook and we worked through
every song in there. And I would go through the
recital time and she'd be like, what do you want
to do? And I'd be like, this song. And she'd
be like, Sister Suffragette, which is the mom
sings about women's rights and how dumb men are.
And she was like... I don't think you want to
do that. And I was like, oh, no, I do. I do.
And I did it in full character with the accent.
I'm sure people were like, what the hell is happening
right now? But I was like. And you grew up in.
Wakulla County. Yeah. Crawfordville, Florida.
I feel like that's important to bring some context
into this. A rural community. Can you just talk
a little bit about Wakulla is where it is? I
don't know that we've really brought it up much
here before. Let me tell you a little bit about
it. It is one of the most beautiful places that
I've been to. It is just south of Leon County
in the panhandle of Florida. It is a coastal
county, and it is rural and definitely the south.
The big city for us was Tallahassee. We call
it coming to town back in the day. We used to
have one stoplight. Now it's grown a lot. But
Wakulla is a Native American word, and I forget.
which for one of the translations is mysterious
waters which I've always liked but also as a
gay kid growing up in the south it was not always
easy it is conservative it is it is a place that
I ran like hell from and only probably just now
have in the last 10 years come to come to terms
with like how much I do love it and how much
it's home and how beautiful it is but for me
it was It didn't always feel like the most welcoming
place. Once people started to notice that I was
a little different, and way before I noticed
that I was a little different, I just thought
that I was just doing my thing. But, yeah, it
was a place I didn't want to stay for a long
part of my life. Just to give some context, I
mean, it does have the nickname Will Kill Ya
County. Proudly. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
There are bumper stickers and hats that people
wear. It's W -A -K -U -L -L -A. And then there's
like this brand they had. I don't know who made
it up, but it was Will Kill Ya all in one word
that they used to wear, like a similar hat we
see today. Probably some carpetbagger up in New
Jersey. Made up a web store. But you feel like
there's some truth to that. Yeah, no, yeah. No,
I think as someone who grew up in Tallahassee
and had all these little rural communities surrounding
us, Bluntstown, Hossford, like, I mean, not just
Wakulla, but like, oh, on the other side of the
river kind of thing. I think there was a lot
of that kind of, oh, out Highway 20, those kids
are. So it's just. I get it. Like, it was, like,
everybody there, like, toughness kind of wins.
Oh, yeah. Toughness. I was just laughing about
that because my dad used to tell me, I'd come
home and somebody would pick on me. My last name
is Gaby, and I was probably the most flamboyant
when I was a kid because I didn't know anything
I was doing was wrong, in quotes. But my dad
would always be like, toughen up. Toughen up
was always the thing. And also I feel like that's
just, that's how it's, any kind of sign of sensitivity
or emotion or anything that probably feels feminine,
like a feminine trait is, that's anathema, right?
I can relate to that. Especially as someone who
grew up just like loving to be a performance
kind of person. And I loved musicals. And my
dad was a cop. and sure yeah so it was like this
very much this kind of don't and i'm not even
trying to get into the specificities of my father
but just like having a cop as a father was like
oh don't you want to blend in, don't do anything
to stand out, don't dress this way or people
are going to think you're this kind of way. And
it made me just super aware of things that I
wasn't even, I shouldn't have even been aware
of. 100%. And their attempt to give us survival
tools sometimes, they diminish us a lot. It's
aware. I don't think there's a lot of bad intention
behind a lot of it, but some of the tools, you're
like, That might be where our fathers differ,
but we can just leave it at that. Save that one
for father therapy session. I tell a joke that
having a cop for a dad does give me imposter
syndrome as a leftist because I'm not sure if
I hate cops or if I've just got daddy issues.
That's great. that's a real i'm like shit how
much do i really want to fight the power and
how much do i really just want to stick it to
him that is that i'm sure that resonates for
a lot of people a lot of us for sure love you
dad so what are some of the some of the bands
you start listening to growing up in wacola county
and how do you think like growing up somewhere
like that affected It sounds like you were listening
to a lot of country music at a young age and
like top 40 country. That was it. Some older
stuff, obviously, like Dolly, but like John Anderson
is very much like that 90s, top 40. It was very
much country music. That was like saturated in
country music, church music, and the occasions
that my older sister is five years older than
me. She is the coolest, and she was the coolest
when we were growing up. And so she would be
the only person who would really bring in non
-country music into the fold. She was the one
who got me. We would get the good pop music,
whatever it was. Madonna, from Madonna to Wham
to Alanis Morissette, Whitney Houston, all the
stuff that was non -country came from her. We
got all of our credibility from my older sister.
And my mom. Definitely brought in a lot of 50s,
60s, and Motown stuff that she really loved.
But the primary stuff, listening to the radio,
was always probably 94 .9. Still, back when it
was the Judds and Reba McEntire and Tanya Tucker
and still George Jones we could get and play
on the radio and a little bit of Dolly Parton
towards the end of her airplay. Dina Carter.
Yeah, but that was actually a little bit later
for me. But that song, Strawberry Wine, is such
a great song. Yeah, it's one of my karaoke go
-tos. It's just a perfect song. I hated it. For
some reason, I hated it growing up because I
think it was constantly playing. But then recently,
like in the last few years, I was listening to
the song and I was like, that is a goddamn...
Perfect song. Yeah. So well written. Yeah, I
think I have very similar feelings about that
song. Like, for a long time, I really, like,
dismissed it or was sick of it or whatever. And
then, yeah, the last five, ten years, I think
I heard somebody just pull it out one night,
and I was like, damn. It's a good one. It's a
good one. So, yeah, mostly that country was coming,
and there was a tape we had that was. Hot Country
Request Volume 3 that was a family favorite,
and it had Ricky Skaggs and Merle Haggard and
people that no one knows, like Charlie McClain.
And Highwaymen was on there. It was all the big
singles from whatever 80s year it was. And we
would listen to them. You got it from Columbia
House. Yeah, definitely. I definitely have my
run -ins with Columbia House. I'm in big trouble
with that. But yeah, until... For the first kid,
mostly, it was the country stuff. Radio country.
Whatever was hot at the time. Let's talk about
Columbia House. Maybe not specifically, but where
were you getting... When you start buying record
CDs, whatever it was, tapes maybe? Tapes, yeah.
Where were you going to get them? I was... If
it was a Dolly Parton tape that had come out,
I could... Or a CD. I could almost always convince
somebody to buy it for me when I didn't have
my own money when I was, like, real young. But
I wanted to get tapes, and I had seen the Columbia
House stuff, and I was telling my mom, I was
like, look, it's one penny for whatever the hell
it is. I don't know, it's ridiculous. And she's
like, it's a scam. You're going to have to pay
whatever it is, blah, blah, blah. I'll buy you,
like, one tape, you know, something. She had
said something, and I basically just filled it
out and did it anyway. Started looking at the
stamps. I was like eight or nine years old. Yes,
the stamps. And so I remember very well because
I thought I could intercept this stuff. I was
like, my mom is so smart, and so you can't get
anything past her anyway. And I was like eight
years old, maybe nine. And so I'd order my Columbia
House stuff, and we were going to a baseball
game that I did not want to play in because I
did not want to play sports, but I had to. It
was literally game. It was like a Saturday. And
my mom stopped to get the mail and the box of
tapes was in there. And she was like, what is
this? And I was just like, ah. But anyway, she
basically told me that I could only have them
if I tried really hard. at the baseball game,
and that was the only time I ever tried hard
at a baseball game. Just that one game? I hated
it so much. That's a good deal, though. It was
a totally good deal. Also, what could she do
at that point, I think. I probably did that twice.
I probably did that twice. Because also right
before that, I was at a baseball game, and I
was playing as far away as they could put me.
I was on a team of... really kids who all grew
up to be like great high school athletes and
stuff and i was like definitely just the worst
on the team and i had no interest and i had no
skill and i wanted to not be there and i so it
was like a we were playing and they like this
killing the other team hits like a rbl the bases
are loaded he hits like a rbi home run type of
vibe and i am in the feel with my glove under
my arm. I'm making shadow puppets in the sun,
and I can hear my dad screaming from far away,
God damn it, Wally, pick up the goddamn ball!
As the ball is rolling at me, all their team
is running in and scoring. My coaches are going
crazy. My teammates are just like, not again.
And I then take the glove under my arm, pick
up the ball, and throw it like this. She was
probably like, anything to get. to get him through
this season, to get him through this game, to
not embarrass himself. Did you only play the
one season of baseball? That was the last one.
That ended because I begged and begged and begged
and begged, but then the last thing I'll say
about baseball is that one of the coaches on
the team, it's actually a slight reference to
this man in some of the music that I'm releasing,
but we have a baseball practice, and I had been...
so humiliated and just i was already like they
were calling me wiley gay boy all this kind of
stuff and everybody but whatever like i said
everybody was good we were having a practice
and this man i'll keep his name out of this but
he was throwing pitches and we do a bat in practice
it was my turn and i was just like okay i was
telling myself my house like you got to do this
keep your eye on the ball keep your eye on the
ball keep your eye on the ball you can't miss
this and he throws a ball and it like knocks
into me a little bit like it's a grown -ass strong
muscly man and throwing so hard and like at the
kid who cannot play and so so the next time I
was like and he taunted me a little bit and so
anyway like the next time he throws it I'm like
upset I'm trying to focus on the ball and it
not he threw it right between my eyes knocked
me out and Jesus Christ and the great thing is
that aside from the goose egg that I ended up
having on my face I was like that my mom just
so happened And I told her that he was an asshole,
and I told them both. But I got bullied a lot,
so sometimes I think you're just like, okay,
he needs to figure his way out in this situation.
But she was there for it, and she just happened
to get there early that day, and she saw what
happened. And that was it. I never had to play
another fucking game or another fucking practice,
and I didn't have to go to school the next day
because they probably were scared that somebody
thought they abused me because my face looked
so crazy. He's dead now. I'll drink to that.
Cheers. Yeah. Oh, man. First of all, I'm sorry
that happened to you. Thank you for telling that
story here. I'm an overshare sometimes. Sorry,
y 'all. That's what we're here for. But were
you into sports at all? Did you not? Do you enjoy
watching them? It's like just not. your thing
are you competitive at all i do i yeah i've had
definitely got a competitive streak i i loved
i would get competitive when it came to like
music and theater stuff like when i was if you
wanted to go to district and state festival you
better give me that straight superior yes exactly
exactly that that was very competitive for me
like all that kind of stuff i wanted to be all
involved in that and academics i was trying to
get i remember fighting like I was like one thousandth
of a grade point from salutatorian when this
guy and I were just so neck and I would just
go to the guidance counselor at office and check
I was annoyingly competitive and stuff that I
wanted to do or I felt like I had how close to
being valedictorian am I yeah that kind of thing
so just stuff that does not matter now kids but
but definitely like that I definitely when I
was younger very much I think that's better stuff
to focus on than A, than like being the strongest
or the fastest for one. I do think that's, it's
like better to focus on that stuff for the longevity
of your life or whatever, but also like then
drugs or getting into, there's a lot of things
that getting competitive about theater and stuff.
That's a really good way to channel that energy
at that age. If you're going to be competitive
for me. Yeah, I guess B also B, it meant something
to me too. And I wanted to, maybe I wanted the
wrong things maybe when I was younger and more
feral, but it does make you better to, if you're
playing sports, right? If you're going to play,
if you're like talking about mediocrity, a mediocre,
I don't know, tennis player. If you play against
the Williams sisters versus playing against your
like. other mediocre friend, you're going to
lose a lot, but you're going to get better doing
it. Like with music, it's like my friend Teresa,
who I'm sure we'll talk about later, is one of
the best singers I've ever heard and ever sung
with. And we used to be, because I've played
with her, because I've been on stages with her
and sung with her and had to not compete with
her, but match something or feel like I got to
bring something to this. I am. exponentially
better artist because of playing with folks who
are better than me i can relate to that as a
comedian too especially just like on being on
a show um and everybody's on that night like
on fire like every and you might not even be
working with the funniest people in the world
that night but everybody's feeling it and the
crowd is good and you're like all right i gotta
i gotta step up and i can't like fuck up the
energy of this room right i gotta carry the torch
to the next comedian which like i i don't feel
like i've ever really been worried about personally
but it does i think working with better people
like it elevates you like you look at a time
period of a band like the drive -by truckers
like when jason was in the band and they're all
i think and i think the relationship between
patterson and mike cooley has always been all
right, motherfucker, what you got? You know what
I mean? Yeah, and it shows too, I feel like,
in a good way, right? Yeah, in a very positive
way. Hey, it's almost like they're having a conversation.
Yeah, yeah. Which kind of brings me, I want to
go back a little bit, or maybe not, I don't know,
but at what point did you start playing instruments?
Because you're performing, you're singing, you're
into musicals, but when were you like, all right,
I want to play an instrument? And then follow
up to that, When did you start writing your own
songs? When did I start? I think I first started
playing piano. I had voice lessons from a teacher
in Crawfordville, a lady by the name of Michelle
Snow. And I think my parents and I were talking.
I wanted to, I think that we thought we'd gone
as far as we could go in the vocal department
and wanted to go, which was not true. And so
I wanted to learn something. And I thought piano
would be beneficial, and I was into that. And
so I really, I played piano first. And then,
but also, I saw people, so I was probably like
six or seven. And then I saw people, you don't
see a lot of country artists playing piano. No,
that's a good point. Yeah, and so I... And also,
at that point, I wanted to do it all, but I wasn't
really drawn to the guitar. Piano's always felt
more natural to me and more achievable and attainable.
Guitar still remains a little elusive to me,
as anyone can tell by my performances. But I
liked sports almost at first with the guitar.
I wanted the shiny thing that Dolly Parton was
playing or whoever was doing it, or I wanted
to have the guitar so I could also sing. I could
accompany myself singing, and that was, I loved
to sing, I wanted to sing, I considered myself
a singer, and I just wanted to learn enough of
the guitar so I could accompany myself. And so
it took a long time with the guitar because I
don't think I gave it the respect quite that
it deserved and didn't realize the importance
of it until probably I started playing with people
who were good and also with musicians who would
tell me stuff like, Hey! If you tune your guitar,
it'll all sound better and it'll make your life
a little easier. We do appreciate that in the
audience, typically. Yeah, I will say that. And
I do too. But I was blind to that. I wish that
I would have taken it more seriously because
it's been in my guitar and piano, both of them
in my life for... since i was a kid but you probably
learned a lot of like musical theory and things
like that you might not have learned had you
pursued guitar at a young age by pursuing piano
yeah and i still prefer if i could take if i
could take a piano with me everywhere and if
i could like like a real piano if i could just
sit down at one everywhere i went i would probably
play a lot more things on it yeah j ready wallston
brought a digital piano and set it right where
you're sitting right now and played in here It
was wild. I love it. I love playing. I feel more
at home there, but also I feel still like a novice
there because I don't always have access to it.
Whereas the guitar has been always reliable.
And I've learned I can always be better at the
guitar, but I've come a long way in a longer
time. So how old were you when you stopped playing
baseball? I was nine or nine years old. Cause
I feel like that probably freed up a lot of time
to do other things. And I was like, but I was
also at that time, I was also writing and directing
and producing the church musical for Christmas.
Like I found, I was a very, I had more, if I
could channel the ambition that I had between
the ages of eight and 16, 17. Now I feel like.
I really would be unstoppable because that little
queen was like, I'm going to put on a play, and
I'm going to write my own play, and it might
be nonsense, and it might be terrible, but I
somehow convinced the church to let me do it
and the music teacher to play the piano for the
kids to come to rehearsals, and we did it. There's
a video somewhere, and it's absolute nonsense,
but I was doing that. Taking music lessons, I
was trying to, I also started to sing. And like
towards the end of, right around that time, I
would, outside the church, I took myself very
seriously. I had to have these tracks that you'd
order, these tapes that like were instrumental
tracks for songs. And so then I would go to the
Blue Crab Festival in Panacea or the Fourth of
July on Stop Choppy. And eventually when I got
a little more, a little better in my preteens.
Springtime Tallahassee or something like that.
But I would be like fully Garth Brooks out in
my like too tight hat. And I was like this chubby
little kid with wearing a Garth Brooks shirt.
And I would get out there and I'd sing to the
tracks and do that kind of stuff. So I was like.
What were your favorite like Garth Brooks songs
to sing? The River was one that I sang a lot.
And it was also tough because my voice, especially
then before puberty hit, was like super high.
men's songs was hard to do. So I'd have to almost
always, it had to be like a special key or somebody
that sang really low that I could go octave above
them. Yeah. Or I'd have to sing like a lady's
song and change the words and stuff like that.
But the river, I managed to get the river. That
was one of my regulars. At what point do you
start writing your own? Oh. I'll just say that
the truth is I think I tried to write something
probably around 12 or 13. And all I know is that
it was terrible. Do you think that's what kind
of stopped you from pursuing this stuff? Or like
writing more and more? Oh, yeah. I think for
sure, especially as a younger, as a young kid,
the things that came easy to me, the things that
I wanted to do, the things that I was good at.
first and good at quickly and that also other
boxes so there were and i could do that's why
i could play piano well enough i liked that i
i music theory made sense academics were made
sense i love to read i love books and shit like
that and but the right so something was hard
about the writing and something was like didn't
kind of didn't just flow naturally and or I remember
one time trying to like put music to something
my friend had written when maybe I was like 13
or whatever. And it was like, God awful. But
I wrote two songs. I don't really admit to this.
I actually tell a lie on stage. But I wrote two
songs when I was, I guess, 19. Around that time.
Freshman at FSU, sophomore at FSU, something
like that. And one is this really sappy love
song that I wrote to my first boyfriend. It would
be sweet if it didn't sound creepy now in its
earnest sincerity. And then there's... And it
was a really scathing song that I wrote. I had
just come out, and it was not a good time between
me and my parents for a spell. Things are great
now, but... And so... But I had written this
angry... My angry... My friends call it my angry
lesbian daddy song. But those... But that was
pretty much it. I felt like those songs, I didn't
dabble too much with it until a few years later.
But you're performing still, and you're performing
other people's songs. You're in musicals all
through high school at this point. Yeah, I turned
away from a lot of the... So around when I got
into high school, I had a really great music
teacher and a really great theater teacher, and
I loved them so much. My music teacher, choral
teacher, Alicia Walker, amazing woman. She also,
she would make fun of, she was trying to get
me to sing classical music and sing well and
learn and sing well in the choir. And I have
been so used to being like, I'm going to get
up there and belt my songs and do my thing. And
she really helped me. see this other side but
I as I often do especially at that point I was
like oh this is serious music so I'm actually
not interested in country music anymore because
these people I like just had this big backlash
at like around 14 where I was just like I was
like this is terrible singing and this is blah
blah blah I just went like this total It's not
hard to do. Yeah, sure. Especially like top 40
country. To be fair, it was a time when it was,
to be fair, it was post Garth and Shania, which
felt very exciting at the time. But the fallout
from that is absolute garbage. Which is like
where I, like, so I grew up where like when I'm
like eight, nine, it's still, I think I'm still
getting like the good stuff. Yeah. And then by
the time, like, the late 90s roll around. Late
90s were the crash. Yeah. It's all just pop with
a southern accent at that point. And no feeling
to a lot of it. There was still some good stuff
coming through here and there. But even then,
even at that point, I was like, I thought I was
too good for any of it at that point. I was just
like, I'm going to listen to music theater. And
I'm going to listen to classical music. And I'm
going to go. And honestly, I feel like for, like,
most of high school, that was my music theater
queen, like, era. And it was like, I was discovering,
like, Patti LuPone. And I was, like, leaning
into that very unabashedly. There was, maybe
I liked a, maybe an 80s soundtrack had come out
and I liked some of those bops and stuff like
that or whatever. But you're mostly just into,
like, show tunes and classical music. And primarily.
A lot of people, and not even like necessarily
what some people would call the greatest stuff.
I was like, I was living for Andrew Lloyd Webber
and living for Phantom of the Opera and Cats
and all that shit. I'm definitely a Sondheim
guy. Into the Woods was my first big musical
I saw at FSU and they did it and it was one of
the best shit things I've ever seen in my life.
My choral teacher in middle school, I think she
was just having a bad day. It was like, y 'all
are going to watch a movie today. Did she play
the Bernadette Peters PBS version of Into the
Woods? She played the Bernadette Peters PBS version
of Into the Woods. And God damn, like I've. It
was a life changing moment. It really, I still
remember sitting in that room probably because
of that movie more than any other reason. I loved
that movie. And I like to the point where I went
to church with her and that was how like I, I
was also like a teacher's pet. same in middle
school and i would she let me borrow it like
she would like after after she showed in the
class she was like and my mom was involved but
it was like making sure it was okay with her
and like making sure it got back to my teacher
safely and everything but i love that yeah no
she let me borrow it and i watched that shit
for i think she let me borrow it like for a summer
oh yeah or maybe a spring break or something
and i just like i think that was so magical to
have that as a kid The things that I did have
as a kid that were so magical, just thinking
about stuff like that, or unrelated, but maybe
not, like Miyazaki. I wish I had discovered Miyazaki
at seven, at least by seven or something. I saw
Princess Mononoke in the theaters at 13. Oh,
my. The first dub they ever did for an American
audience. I just had some cool older friends.
We had Miracle 5. Yes, Miracle 5. And I went
to see Princess. That was another one of those
life -changing moments for me. Yeah, I can't
imagine what that would have been, like 13 years
old. It fucking blew my mind. I love that that
happened. Thank you, Miracle 5, and thank you,
older friends. Yeah. The cool kids in Tallahassee.
Yeah, there were, like, I really did have a good
group of, I didn't get along or fit in with anybody
in school, but I had a good group of friends
that were older than me and usually in bands
or whatever. Like Social Burn and No Address.
I hung out with all those guys, and they were
taking me on the road. I had Justin Long here
a few weeks ago from No Address, and he produced
a bunch of local records back in the day. Anyway,
we went down a... So what were some of... Sondheim,
Weber, what were some of the other musicals that
you were really... What did I love? And what
did you consider high art? Because you're like,
I was... Give me some example. It's weird because
I'm going to contradict myself at every turn,
I'm sure, when it comes to this. And it started
with... In high school, too. Right, I was an
asshole. I was a sweet asshole, but we were all
assholes at that age. Oh, I just said you were
in high school. I didn't call you an asshole.
No, I heard you say high school. I called myself
an asshole fully, but thank you. And you're welcome
to, but it won't hurt my feelings. We haven't
justified it yet, so we'll get there. Just wait.
Jesus Christ Superstar was one of the first big
ones that I loved. But also, I remember talking
to my chorus teacher about that and she would
be like, oh my God, the singing is so terrible.
And then she had problems with whatever. But
I really liked... So your teacher was pretentious
too. She was definitely... And I don't mean that
in a bad way, like I'm pretentious about music.
At that time, I would say yes. She was... At
first, we used to butt heads all the time. And
then she broke me in a good way. But she would
be just like, she'd say something about my singing
in a lesson or whatever. She's always supportive
of me and always lovely. She was never cruel.
But she would say stuff like, you are what you
listen to. It sounds like you've been listening
to a lot of, I don't know what she said, but
I'm just throwing Dolly Parton out there. And
I'm just like, and so I'm just like. And I think
you are what you listen to. You need to listen
to great singers. You need to listen to this
stuff, right? But I was really into anybody who
could do extraordinary things with their voices.
And primarily for me, what that means is a woman
doing something with her voice. And specifically,
these references, if anybody's listening who's
a music theater nerd, they're going to roll their
eyes or laugh. Sarah Brightman, who is a wacky,
like a crazy soprano who was married to Angela
Woodweber, who the role of Christine was written
for her. And she's a very strange kind of creature,
but she like had this coloratura like voice and
she could go up into the stratosphere. And so
to me, like it was, and she had a strange, like
a, like a little bit of an overbite and her mouth
like was different. And that was. I felt really
beautiful about her, but also it would affect
the way she sang, and she has something unique
about her voice. Patti LuPone, I thought, was
like the greatest thing in the world. I was like,
I'd listen to the Evita soundtrack, and I'd listen
to primarily the original Sunset Boulevard, which
a lot of people don't consider one of the greatest
musicals until maybe recently, because it's come
back. But I, as a 15 -year -old, I actually checked
out the double CD from... the Leon County Public
Library, because I was like, I can't go to Wakulla
Public Library because they have nothing. Even
though as a kid, that's like where I grew up.
But like when I got older, I was like, we need
to go. I can check out all these musicals, all
these classical music things. And so I had found
this recording of it. And that was like, I would
just listen to her. Like she does this thing
she belts that I would just repeat on constantly,
like listening to it just because it just amazed
me and I couldn't do it. And it just, it was.
just every time would just leave me with goosebumps.
That kind of stuff was what I really loved. Anything
that would just felt like big emotion, people
like hollering in a way that also was like beautiful,
that was like on pitch or that had just amazing
kind of power. Yeah. Were you, were you into
like comedic roles at all or? Oh yeah. Is that
something that interested you? I took myself
a little, when I first started theater, I was,
comedy was where I should have been and all of
that. And I wanted to be like, I was taking myself
very seriously. I remember a couple of times
I would audition for a play and I frequent, I
always got a great role and I was never shortchanged
at all. If not, probably the opposite. I could
tell sometimes that looking back, right, I would
like audition for, maybe we'd have a night of
one acts and like this one act was the competition
piece and it was like some serious drama. And
I would be like auditioning for this leading
role part when I was like, honey, it was not
happening. It would have been like, you would
have had to been like in the dark completely
on drugs to make it believable. But I would just
be like, oh, why didn't I get this part? Instead
of sinking my teeth into, drama teacher would
cast me and if it was a comedy and that was the
only play available then that was definitely
I would lean into that and have a great time
but if there was something like that I felt was
like I didn't I didn't realize that comedy is
just as important and just as different skill
set and requires a lot of the comedy is more
intellectual in some ways I think not touting
it as a better thing, but I feel like people
have said that. No, you can tout it as better.
I've always just felt like there are people who
have said that and I'm going to sound dumb, but
there's something about the timing and the stuff
that there's some mind stuff that goes involved
when you're doing a comic play or a piece of
work. Yeah, yeah. I think that the thing about
that when it's done really is that it's not done
by it's not calculated like it's natural like
it's like the natural ability to have these things
that you're talking about that maybe could be
and has to be especially like in a Broadway show
or a musical or a live show that you're doing
over and over in front of a live audience has
to be repeatable yeah in this way that you know
but I think it started like when it's done really
well like at the beginning and you're trying
to repeat the thing that was done naturally the
first time. And I don't know. I don't like, I
don't know what that calculation is. I just like,
but I know what you're talking about. There's,
there is something about like understanding.
Jay Roddy Walston was on the podcast and he's,
he was talking about how like he can have funny
banter and he can have, he can say things on
stage, like between songs and it'll make people
laugh. But the idea to him of going on stage
and knowing what's funny is the scariest thing
in the world to him, is what he said. And I think
that if you're not a singer, going up and singing
a song and getting the timing and the notes,
that's the scariest thing in the world. 100%.
It's almost like the opposite of the grass is
always greener. There is some natural ability,
I think, to comedy and to having... Now, a lot
of it might be based on coping mechanisms and
trauma. But I think there's more of an innate
when it comes to a singing voice or something
like that. It can be trained, can be refined,
but some people just... You can't make them funny.
Or you can't make them sing good, but you can
make somebody funny by... telling them okay this
is when you say this is when you do if they're
an actor you can most usually i don't know what
goes into that is what i'm getting i don't know
what goes into making somebody else making a
role funny which is what i think you're yeah
because i could never do what i have no idea
what that even means like i i don't know how
to i'm like i'm not saying i couldn't write like
a comedy scene sure But I have no idea how to
tell someone how to write a comedy scene. 100%.
Same for me. And I could never do. You do comedy
in stand -up form. So that is something that
I feel is super elusive to me. I feel like I
can make some jokes. I feel like I can sometimes
I got some zingers and sometimes I can be charming
and this and that and a third. But to be able
to do a set of that. And to do it, to execute
and to do all the things you've got to do, like,
I could play for three hours and it may fuck
up a lot of it. It may not sound incredible,
but I can do that. And, like, the idea of having
to get up on stage for 25, 45, hour and a half
for some people and do comedy is, feels like
the scariest thing I could imagine. Is it something
that's appealing to you? I like telling stories,
and I love being in community and conversation
with an audience, and I love that energy exchange.
I love laughing. The reason I ask is I think
a lot of singers and songwriters wish a little
bit that they could be stand -up comics, but
I think the same is true for a lot of comedians,
too. I like I tell this thing I've said a lot
on here is pretty much all comedians are just
failed rock stars. We all just we all wanted
to be rock stars. And like in one way or another,
we figured out that we were not. I thought of
it. I thought many times I thought to myself
about there was a time when I wanted to do that.
Like comedy was I wanted to do like sketch comedy
stuff. I went to theater school at FSU and got
into. that a little bit and thought that's what
I wanted. Did a little class at Second City in
Chicago and that part seemed fun and very exciting.
I did that as just a hobby for years and years.
It was like a really good thing to do as a person.
The stuff that they teach you in improv, it feels...
Do you know Kim McShane? I know this. She's a
local, but she used to teach improv classes,
still does from time to time, but... Her whole
thing was like, yeah, improv is really just a
great life skill. Yes, and. I think about yes,
and all the time. Because a lot of the times
you don't really have a choice to the yes. Yeah.
Also, it definitely makes it more like it softens
the blow when it's something that you don't want
to yes. Obviously, there are things that we're
not talking about everything, but in terms of
for the most part. Boundaries are important.
Boundaries are very important and consent and
all that stuff. But yes, and it feels very helpful.
And especially in performance, I think it translates
to life, obviously, but also just it's even like
when you're playing a show and everyone tells
you this. Lots of people have lots of things
to tell you as you're putting yourself on stage
and learning how to do it. One good piece of
advice that people give you is don't let them
know that you're failing or roll with it or don't.
It's like whatever. Maybe that's not the exact
best example, but to like to take something that
feels like a fuck up or a thing. And instead
of feeling any negativity towards it or shame
about it or whatever, take that and roll with
it. So maybe acknowledging it. Maybe it's. I
think so. I'm thinking about something my chorus
teacher that taught me there showed me into the
woods. taught us when we would go to these like
district festivals and stuff like that one thing
she would stress like if you make a mistake ignore
it yeah don't acknowledge it because if you acknowledge
it then they're gonna the judges are gonna notice
if you don't if you act like everything's that
was great they might they're at least they're
at least less likely to notice yeah like if you
notice then if you act like you notice then they're
definitely going to notice and people don't like
and people also want to see for the most part
especially in in these settings i feel like people
want to see people succeed and regardless no
one wants to see you crash and burn but i think
that just theater was the same way If someone
drops a line, someone skips a page, whatever
it is, if you've got your shit together and you've
rehearsed it enough and you know the script well
enough or you're in it enough, you can get back
there. And the same with a song, the same with
so many things. And it's always more, like my
best moments, my favorite moments on stage, my
favorite shows, my favorite things are when things
that I have let it go or gotten up there and
been like, I played a show with The Great Dying.
I don't know if you've... If you're familiar
with them, but they're like, they're on the dial
back sound. Okay. Okay. Yeah. It's an Oxford,
Mississippi, Will Griffith. He's one of my best
friends. Okay. Super sweet guy. And he's an awesome
singer songwriter. Yeah. Now that you're like
a bunch of strings are coming together. I think
more are going to come between now and like next
weekend. I think even more so connecting lots
of dots between that community, this and, but
sorry, I totally lost track of myself. No, you're
fine. We got all the time in the world. Will
Griffith. I love you, Will Griffith. Great guy.
So we were playing a show. I was playing a show
with them, and I used to play with the band all
the time in Brooklyn. And it just gets hard to
manage sometimes. It's like they're all in multiple
projects. They all have families. And so we had
a show, and I was supposed to have the whole
band with me, and I didn't. It was like somebody
the night before couldn't come for some reason,
and without that person, it didn't make sense
for... to have the band and somebody else got
to say, whatever it was, I just decided, you
know what, I'm going to play this show that I'm
supposed to quote unquote headline in Brooklyn
on Friday night. I don't have enough people coming
anyway, but now I'm certainly going to, I got
to go up there and play with just me and a guitar.
I wasn't super well rehearsed, but I had promised
myself that day, I was like, I'm going to play
this new song. And I was like, I hadn't finished
writing the song and I was, I don't know what
I was doing. I was like, I'm going to punish
myself. I was writing. Between the sound check,
I was just like, write something down. Write
the song. I was writing the song up until I went
on stage. Normally for me, even though I'm not
the most amazing and precise musician, I do have
a little problem with perfectionism sometimes.
The idea of going on stage by myself with the
guitar to sing a song that was unfinished and
that was not... stamped with my approval of this
is good enough to share with somebody was like
non was just crazy but i was like fuck it i'm
gonna do this and it was one of the best things
i've ever done i'm not saying it was not my greatest
performance it's not my greatest song no but
letting go of that fear yeah and the audience
fucking loved it they were like they were the
whole story the fact that i was willing to go
up there and they were like and they were willing
to catch whatever i was throwing or and we were
all, it was just like the whole, it just felt
like a real special moment, and that moment would
have never happened if I would have not just
been like, fuck it, let's just go with it. You
miss the words or you make them up, and that's
something, yeah, it's good. People like to see
you take a swing sometimes. I want to back up
a little bit. Sure. Just because you've been
great about it. You've given me a nice little
crumb trail to follow here. So you stopped performing
any music that isn't musical related, it sounds
like, in high school? For the most part. I dropped
out of singing. My country music career probably
went from late elementary to... early high school.
The Garth Brooks cover. Is that what you call
it? The Garth era? The Garth era. We can call
it the Chris Gaines era if you want. I'll call
it... I don't know what I'll call it. I will
think about that. I'll have to ask my sisters.
That was my very serious era. But it sounds like
no matter what you're doing, you take it very
seriously. Too seriously. Sometimes. I'm still
working on loosening up on that, but yeah. Yeah,
yeah. Definitely. I know a guy. Let me know what's
over after this. I might know him. Then you go
to FSU to study theater. I started in music.
You started in music. Yeah, but things went a
little south. Can we talk about that? Yeah, sure.
I might gloss over some of the details just because
some of it I don't want to rehash in great detail.
That's fine. So, yeah, I graduated Wakulla High
School. And then I've always been like a big
mama's baby. Like our family is very close. But
I also, as much as I, in my head, I was like,
I have to move away because I'm going to have
to move away and go get famous and rich. And
then I'll come back and I'll be able to have
tour buses and homes everywhere. And I can take
care of my family and we'll all be fine. You're
going to put Wakulla County on the map. Oh, yeah.
That was the plan. And so anyway, I moved out.
I went to FSU. They got accepted to the music
school, and they had that Bright Futures scholarship.
I guess they still have that. And so it was like,
it was free, essentially, to go there. And I
was very excited. I was very studious, and I
had been like a perfect angel up until that point.
You weren't getting into trouble in high school
at all. I didn't go to parties. I didn't drink.
I would chastise my friends who did. I think
I got drunk twice in high school, and I smoked
weed spring break my senior year. Horrid. And
I cried drunk that night because I had, quote,
unquote, broken, lost my drug virginity. I didn't
even get high. I don't know. It sounds like you
were pretty high to me. I'm sure I probably was.
I was an idiot. That's one thing that's confirmed.
My parents were amazing. They were pretty strict
on us. They did us well growing up, kept us safe,
all that kind of stuff. Also, I went from having...
pretty strict rules to follow to then going to
my freshman year. I was like, I'm going to live
on campus, girl. You ain't keeping me. I'm like,
I'm going to have this experience. And you're
moving to the big city, Tallahassee. We're going
to town. We're going to town. And like, it was
30 minutes away. So it was perfect in my head.
It's like far enough away to be independent,
but not so far that like. They couldn't help
you in an emergency. Exactly. And plenty of those
emergencies definitely bubbled up. But I just
went buck wild. It's not a new story. But I went
from being a straight -A student, high -achieving,
all these things, to not drinking, not doing
any drugs, to being one night out with some friends
on campus. Literally, it felt like it. The next
day, I'm like... buying a pack of cigarettes.
I like, they're like, we're going to do a, somebody
said to me, mom and dad, you can pause the podcast
or skip to the next part. But somebody said to
me, like, you want to try ecstasy? And I was
like, you know what? Sure. I'm like, I'm living
my life. I'm going to try ecstasy. And I did
it and it was really good. That's why they call
it ecstasy. And then, The next week, somebody
was like, there was a drug lord. I call him,
he was so sweet. His name was, he called him
Fluffy. And he had like pink hair and he was,
but he was selling drugs to the people at Reynolds
Hall or whatever the fuck it was. And he, so
anyway, they were like. Statutes of limitations
is way past on that, by the way. Yeah, absolutely.
Redact that. I'll bleep the name. I'll just leave
in Fluffy. Just leave Fluffy. I love you, Fluffy.
I hope you're still living life and living large.
Fluffy was really helpful, but basically what
happened is my friends were just like, I was
like, so when are we doing that ecstasy again?
And they're just like, we're not doing that.
We're doing acid. We're doing acid next Thursday
or whatever. To be fair, we always called ecstasy
acid light. Oh, I didn't even realize. So they
were like, we're doing acid. And I was like,
okay. All I remember about acid, I was like,
oh, acid. I just was told one time. Somebody
told me when I was 12 that it was the worst thing
you could possibly, the worst drug in the world.
Make you crazy and it will kill you. And I just,
I grew up believing everything I heard. And if
they said no, you don't do it. But I was like,
again, I'm like, I am living my big city life
in Tallahassee on campus. So I was just like,
I'm going to do it. I'm going to fucking do it.
On one level, it was the greatest experience.
The first time, folks, let's not tell anybody
to do drugs, but for some folks, the first time
that you trip on LSD or mushrooms, if it's not
terrifying, can be really unbelievably magical,
and I felt like I was in Alice in Wonderland,
and it was quite amazing. George Harrison said,
you only need to trip on LSD once. Yeah, I believe
that. He was like... I did it hundreds of times,
but you only need to do it once. I agree with
that. I did it more than enough during that time,
but I will say that nothing meets your first
time. I felt like anything after that was really
just trying to get to that magical wonder of
the first moment where you're just like, there's
a moment when it starts to happen where it's
just like things start to twitch and come to
life and it's, this can't be happening. I'm literally
in a movie. The birds from Mary Poppins that
are animated could any moment fly onto my finger.
I could be in a barnyard with cartoon characters
right now, and it would all make sense. And that
is a wonderful feeling. I think for me, once
I let go of trying to recreate the first time,
that's when I was able to find more magic. Sounds
fun. Yeah, anyway. But drugs are bad. Don't do
drugs. Don't do drugs. Especially not the really
safe ones like LSD. Another taste that I went
off on. It went from legitimately going to church,
going to the youth revival, to puberty hit me
very late. It was starting to take at the end
of high school, I think, where I was maybe senior
year before I was starting to have... what clearly
everybody else's feelings were having. I was
dating girls and it was very obvious that I was
gay. And so I was dating girls and the girls
would be trying to make out eventually because
they were like, what is happening? And I would
be like, we can't do this because we're going
to have to wait until we're married or whatever.
Let's design our house together. What do you
want to have? How many children do you want to
have? What are their names going to be? Should
we have... Three story house. I was like, I was
interested in that kind of like chatter instead
of, but then, so all this authority coming, getting
close to graduation, sex finally becomes like
an issue. And I start to realize that like, maybe,
oh, this is all making sense now. So you weren't
really aware of it. No, it was like, I was like,
it was high school before. I definitely. Look,
I'd definitely always known that something was
different. I didn't know anything was wrong with
it until people start telling you that somewhere
between four, five, six. That kind of goes back
to what we were talking about earlier. A lot
of these things that are just innate about us,
nobody tells us. Until you're told that something
is... Right. And then they sexualize it. And
then they sexualize it and shame you for it.
it becomes like a massive complication too. It's
just you feel shame for stuff that you've never
even done. Or sometimes the real tea is, I remember
having friends in middle school and early high
school, and those friends, like a lot of the
straight boys who were any kind of popular guys
were keeping their distance from me by that point.
But I had a few friends that they would tell
me stories about, like they would be calling
me. the F word and Wiley Gay Boy and writing
shit about me on the walls. But then they would
tell me about some, what I could, I'm sure, I
didn't experience it because whatever, a normal
sexual exploration that happens about guys. But
they would be like literally having like circle
jerks and telling me what happened with their,
how big somebody's nuts were and then calling
me like gay. And I would be like, do you hear
yourself right now? Do you hear what's going
on? It doesn't change the fact that I am gay
and I was gay, but I would be so mad. I would
be like, they're calling me names and they're
calling me this and they're the ones that are
doing these awful things. And then years later,
you're like, well, yeah, I'm not going to. But
anyway, so all of this kind of culminates as
I'm starting FSU, moving away from home. It's
a blessing and a curse. I did not need to be
on my own. I was just, I had no, a slob. do a
lot of things despite being smart, but also,
but I was also able to go be myself and go to
brothers. And yeah, that was an eighties night.
And I'm, I'm sure it's stuff of legend in Tallahassee,
but like the Sunday night, they think, I think
they still do it now. It's nine to six, but it's,
it's pretty like brothers has changed names like
three or four times, but it's pretty much still
the same bar. It's always been. My friend and
I went two or three weeks ago. At first, I'd
been in years for the gay night or whatever,
and it's shocking how similar it is. Yeah. It's
really close to me, so I'll go catch a drag show
just on a random Friday. It's nice to have that
little nostalgia kick. Get a burger. And they
serve food, right? Yeah. There's that. And they
have good concerts, too. They have some good
shows there. I've seen, like, and also, like,
Steve Hofstetter's coming there soon, I think.
Yeah, and Shane Moss was just there. And then
he was on the podcast, too. Amazing. But yeah,
it's a great venue. They got a great sound guy.
And Carl, who owns it, I've known him for years.
He used to have these big parties at his house
after Brothers would close. And it would just
be like hundreds of people. I don't know. That
was a long time ago when I had a lot more energy
and the ability to stay out that late. I think
this actually goes, this is a really, this. right
where i wanted to ask you next actually it was
like you're listing all your influences at a
young age and what i'm hearing is a lot of women
what i'm not hearing is like gay icons of any
kind like dolly parton was not a gay icon at
the time like right now right but i'm thinking
like bowie or prince or just like more i guess
the androgynous kind of like gender bending sure
yeah yeah men that were really perfect segue
for this because that's right when i feel like
i just started to discover those people okay
yeah so you're in tallahassee you're starting
in music but you're it sounds like you're not
really even going to class very much or were
you at first i did i was like but then i stopped
like i would just start to i really slacked off
and then oh god then i remember like getting
an email one day probably when i was coming off
an acid trip or something like that. For a few
weeks, months in there, I was just like, I was
really into LSD. The thing is, it is a drug you
really have to treat with respect and not overdo
it, or it can make your life kind of spiral out
of control. Definitely, I was just not, just
being a wild 18 -year -old who never had any
kind of, I had all the reins off, never had that
before, so figuring all that out. was really
intense i managed to like it wasn't quite the
i'm sure it seemed really bad at the time coming
from where i was because i was literally like
it was like angel child to like devil child in
one year like in terms of the way that my family
thought of me for sure and like the way that
society measures success right so it's not to
me i'm hearing like this coming of age like yeah
If I was on a gap year, this is what I would
have been doing. If I was taken off a year between
there, this is the experiences I probably would
have been having if I was a normal 18 -year -old.
But the way the world sees it is you're failing.
Failing. And you're disappointing everybody,
and you're never going to be able to do anything
musically if you're out here smoking cigarettes
and staying up all night and not making it to
class. I also, I wasn't like, I was in the head
of the voice faculties, like voice studio. And
he had gone to, he was, I had auditioned. He
had, he, I had known him since high school. Like,
so it was definitely, there was some like, you
know, there were, it felt high stakes looking.
It felt like a terrible time at the time. And
it was in some ways, but like looking back now,
it's just, it's such a shame that it wasn't like,
I don't think we should celebrate. idiot with
my actions at the time but having somebody be
able to say although this is pretty normal like
standard fair yeah shit that you're going through
and standard fair like stuff that you're experimenting
with freedom it is going to be difficult you
might want to get some discipline in here you
might want to make sure you're seeing a therapist
you might want to do whatever it is this and
that and a third well and that's why i think
it's so important to have that representation,
those icons, those people that growing up that
you could have looked up to that you like didn't
have. One of my best friends is a trans man.
And one thing that he's told me is like growing
up, the only representation he ever saw was like
on Jerry Springer. Sure. Or those kinds of shows.
And it was like something he couldn't even relate
to at all. 100%. And so not having any kind of
example to be set for you or whatever, I can
imagine that being really, just feeling really
lost when trying to find yourself. Yeah, and
also not 100%. And also, I think that's one of
the reasons that I rejected country, because
I could see that coming, aside from just the
fact, and also leaning into... I don't think
I was conscious of it, maybe that I was leaning
into music theater and classical music, which
would have been more pro -queer and pro -gay
and more like of my people. So that actually
was good in that sense, right? But also, it took
me a while to realize that what I actually loved
to do was not classical music. And what I loved
to do was this thing that I had left behind.
Looking back at that, you're like, there was
no one. There is no one. If there's anybody up
there, they are completely closeted or if they've
managed to get up there at all at that point.
There were no... Like you say, even going back
to Jerry Springer, I remember Boy George. We'd
have VH1 and we would watch these videos. Boy
George probably caused some commotion. But also,
less commotion than I feel like is being caused
today by other... It's just so bizarre to me
how people... That's another conversation, but...
Yeah, we can get as... There's nothing off limits
here. But yeah, Boy George was also like... But
it is cyclical as hell. Yeah, so, so cyclical.
But there was... It was like there was some kind
of other... That person was other. Or people
on Jerry Springer, and they're... being treated
like a sideshow act. It was stuff that you did
not necessarily resonate with or didn't think
you wanted to be associated with. It was like
something hidden in the shadows, something that
was like nefarious or bad, right? Instead of,
and so the only country music like queerity you
see that you grow up is like the fact that Dolly
Parton's all of her dresses are made by a gay
man, right? Or that... All these people, there's
plenty of, you look back, you're like, oh God,
how many gay men must there have been involved
in Nashville from the 60s or the 80s? If you
look at the rhinestones alone, you've got people
like, I remember seeing Reba McEntire at the
Civic Center and just being like, and feeling
like watching the male dancers and you're just
like, oh, what's happening? They're all working
within the industry. They're all in part of it
or whatever it is, but it's just all like hidden,
right? It's all. Yeah, yeah. Keep that shit to
yourself and keep that shit quiet and pass and
don't do anything to upset the big dogs. But
the result of that is when young people are coming
of age and wanting to be in that industry, they
don't have anybody to look to. None. Because
it's all hidden. None. And that's what's exciting
about, I think, what's happened. Obviously, right
now things are... fucked but like in general
especially with i just think like the younger
generations and stuff like that there's just
so much more of that there's so much more visibility
in queer music and queer country even the last
place that i expected to find a big queer country
community was brooklyn new york and when i moved
to new york and played i mean i had not been
playing music for a while and someone reached
out to me to play a show and they were doing
a queer country monthly and i was like wait what
is happening right now and it was like and i
remember playing and it was like such a life
affirming like moment it's my first show in new
york city and like i had enough time i thought
to prepare for it when i played to like my friends
i'd known people no one knew that i played tell
them i played music i hadn't played any for the
couple years that i'd been there i was so intimidated
and And Karen Pittleman of Karen and the Sorrows,
who's an amazing musician, an amazing human being,
has always championed me. She reached out to
me on Facebook Messenger, and she was like, I
heard from somebody that you play music, and
we would love to have you at this event. And
I had three months, so I knew that was enough
time to learn my songs and practice and get my
shit together. And that's what kind of brought
you back into singing on your own and performing
on your own? Yeah, I was in Chicago before that,
and I started there. I jumped ahead of the story
a little bit. No, that's fine. But I moved to
New York. I've got ADHD. Same. More in common.
So basically, I started playing music in Chicago.
I was feeling getting my bearings there. And
then I fell in love with New York and wanted
to move there and got an opportunity. And my
intention, I told myself at the time, was that
I will move there and I will sing and play music
there. And I got there and I was like, I can't
do it. It wasn't a conscious thing, but I was
just like, eventually I'll do that. I'll get
to that. I'll get to that. Sorry. And I never
did because I was just scared and so stupid.
But, and then I remember going to see a show
and this is not, the guy was great. He was wonderful.
He was opening for a friend of mine. It has nothing
to do with how good or not good he was. But like,
I, I went to the show and I saw the guy play.
It was the guy and a guitar. And it was like.
And he was fine and he did good and everybody
liked it. And I also was like, I don't know what
I'm worried about. I can do everything he just
did. I can do it at least that good. And that
was like a moment. And right around that time,
Karen reached out to me and offered me this opportunity
to play the Queer Country Monthly in November.
And I, it was just like, I was like, oh my God,
this is so great. So there's this place called
Branded Saloons, a gay owned place. Brooklyn
and it's still open still owned by the same queers
and it's the it's just been a great home for
that but also the community and so like beyond
that it's like we went on this I felt like I
had found my people like beyond music people
beyond whatever it's like the fact that also
we could reference the same stuff that I would
be talking about, the same musicians, and they
would know it, and they would know what it's
like to be a gay person or a queer person who,
as they said, and they coined it so well, loves
something that doesn't love you back. And that's
the way, that was my relationship with country
music for a while. It's like something that felt
like... Like kind of the way it is with parents
sometimes and other relationships where you're
like, it starts out very good and strong and
then like you start to have your own identity.
And so that challenges something with them. And
so that challenge, being gay challenges the identity
of country music almost in some way and vice
versa. And so you have this dissonance or whatever.
And so to find people who had that very specific
thing. And part of the thing, when I moved to
New York, I remember people telling me, why don't
you move to Nashville? If you want to do music,
why don't you move to Nashville? And I was like,
I've never even really visited it. And I just
didn't, I wasn't interested. I was like, I want
to move there. And if I have to sacrifice not
being around country music, then that's like
fine. And what I didn't expect to find was like
a massive at the time, what felt like massive
to me, just like a big community of queer country
folks. Some folks that I still hang out with
and a lot of them are very active today. Were
you aware of... that scene existing anywhere
at all no not really i'd heard i wasn't paying
attention to anything like that too but also
it was just like and also i i would i had just
moved i was in my 20s i just moved to new york
and i was also just in i was a little more mature
than my previous stories to a degree and had
a little bit i'd spent some time in a big city
i had i was able to handle my shit a little bit
better, but I was having the time of my life.
And also just at the time, I just, I think being
afraid was also a great excuse not to do a lot
of the stuff. Yeah, yeah. Because I could just
keep going out and having a good time. So how
did you finally get out of Tallahassee, the Tallahassee
Greater Metropolitan Area, as we might call it?
It sounds so ridiculous when I say it. We're
just going to call it town. Because you got out
of Wakulla. Yeah. And I went back and forth.
Yeah. My parents have been real good to me in
a lot of ways. I've shown up back at their house
many times. And then once I left FSU, though,
I was like, I wanted to. So I dropped music school
after the first year, and I switched to theater.
And I finished that thing, and I'm done with
music. I've had many times I've been done with
music. And so I'm going to be done with music.
I'm going to be an actor. I'm going to go somewhere.
And I was too afraid and didn't really believe
in myself very much, but I was too afraid to
move to New York. And also everyone had to be
convinced that if I moved to New York, I'm going
to end up dying of AIDS and being poor and like
all these horror stories. You'd watched Rent
a lot. Right? They had. And so it's, I just was
petrified of the place. And then everybody was
like the successful, like, Top -tier theater
school students were all going to New York, and
that felt intimidating and scary. But I had a
teacher who just randomly told me one day, she
was like, I think Chicago would be a great city
for you after graduation. I mean, I love Chicago.
As a city, it's one of my favorite places. So
good. As long as it's not anywhere between late
November and March. Oh, man. I don't know if
I could. I've been there during New Year's, and
it's horrible. I love you, Chicago, but 40 degrees
below zero is not cool. Yeah, I don't know that
I'd want to live there, but it's one of my favorite
places to visit. How long did you live there?
Four years. That was my first. I left Tallahassee
for Chicago. The teacher told me that, and so
I went and visited the city. I loved it. I also
got to meet Dolly Parton because I had backstage
passes. I also got my pockets cut out when I
fell asleep on the train. So all of this was
like not... Oh, my goodness. It was very like...
I don't know that I've ever heard of that method.
CTA, I fell asleep after we met Dolly. I had
a big day. I had met Dolly Parton for the first
and only time that I've met her, chatted with
her. We went out. It was the first time visiting
Chicago. I was drunk as Cooter Brown. I was also
young and cheap and fearless. I was like, I'm
not taking a cab. I'm going to take the train
to my friend's hotel where we were staying. I
got on the red line, and it's like Roxy back
and forth. Somebody's asleep across from me,
and I'm just thinking to myself, God, that looks
comfortable. The next thing I know, I wake up
at the end of the red line at 95th and Dan Ryan.
and I'm wearing a wagon -wheel -embroidered,
like, Western T -shirt that's at the Coliseum,
my lesbian era. I was a little chubby and spiky
hair, and I just looked cherub -like and a little
androgynous. And I had just bought all this stuff
from the Urban Outfitters because I thought that
was the coolest thing in the world because it
was new to me, and everything in the city was
exciting. Anyway, I looked down. I didn't even
look down. I get up off the stage. I panic. I'm
like, it's more. It's like I've been out. We're
in the train yards. It's like I run up and get
off the train, and I don't know how long I've
ridden it. If I've ridden it back and forth,
what the fuck? And so I get off the train. I
go. I'm like, I just need to get a cab from wherever
I am, and I get off the train platform, and I
reach my hand back through my pocket, and it
goes straight clean through my pocket. So they
cut down. I was asleep, and apparently they cut
down the side of it, slipped the pocket out.
Then they got the front of my pocket. They split
this with a razor blade and pulled out stuff
from this pocket. It did not wake me up. My wallet
was gone. Then I tried to get back on the train
platform and they won't let me on because I don't
have a ticket. I'm freaking out. Finally, I freaked
out. They let me on. I ride back. I find my friends.
You show them the holes in your pocket. My parents
are like, I called my mom. I remember I could
tell she was pissed. Like, it was like, because
I could tell that she, her, she didn't have any
capacity to be like, I think I probably scared
her so much that she was just like, like, she'd
give me the cold shoulder. I was like, I need,
I called her to get like, I had to fax birth
certificate or some shit because I had to get
on the plane and I had no identification. At
least this was pre -9 -11, I think. It was actually.
As I'm saying, I'm like, we got to be close.
It's close. It was right after. So it was soon
after 9 -11 and maybe like right after. So you'd
think that it was going to be like, I was like,
there's no way I'm going to be able to get on
the plane. And whatever it was, it was basically
the easiest at that point. Because maybe that
whole year I'd been traveling, like where I'd
gone. I remember traveling with a CD booklet
and they went through, it was like the time when
they were taking, they were randomly pulling
people off the line and going through everything
and like scanning and stuff. But like getting
there early, not having an ID, being robbed,
having the police report, all that kind of stuff.
I was like slicker than goose shit through a
tin horn. Yeah, I feel like with all that official
documentation at that time, they probably were
like, we got bigger fish to fry than give you
more of a hard time. It was easier to go through
that than actually going up there that trip.
So that was just visiting. Yeah, sorry. So you
got robbed and you're like, I'm going to move
there right away. So the next thing I was like,
you know what? I also met Dolly Parton, so it
balances out. And so then I went, I was like,
I need to figure this out. I need to go in like
February so I can make sure I can handle this.
And I remember going up there in February and
whatever. And then that next, or January, and
the next June I moved. And I left here and was
there for four years. And that's when I started
like writing songs. That's when I wrote. the
first songs that I admit to writing today. And
at that point, you're performing under the name
Golden Sunchild? I'm just Wiley. Just Wiley Davey.
I'm trying to figure it out. I'm just writing
a couple of songs. I went to the Old Town School
of Folk, their songwriting, some kind of songwriting
workshop, and I was taking lessons, and I was
trying to get serious. I met some musicians who
were what I thought was older at the time, which
was like babies now. But they were older musicians,
some of them I had worked with at this publishing
company, and they took me in a little bit, and
they put me on stage and tried to encourage me,
and I was still... And this was after you'd done
the... This was in Chicago. Yeah, this was before
New York. Before New York, okay. I'm just trying
to... I know, I jumped. That's literally how
this always goes. So don't worry. That's my job
is just to keep it straight. If you have any
questions. So you're in Chicago and you meet
this group of older musicians. Yeah, I'm playing
and doing stuff. But also just very half -assed.
It was definitely a lot of the... I was like,
I can sing. I can do country music. It was weird
because I'm coming back to some of the singer
-songwriter -y stuff and also not... maybe giving
it the respect it deserved, even though I was
dabbling in it. And also it was like being in
your 20s, coming out, being 1 ,000 miles away
from home, being in a big city. I had never spent
any time in any big cities, so that was just
like similar to New York afterward. It was just
like mind -blowing, made a lot of... learned
a lot of lessons but also like I was going there
too I was like I'm going to become like an actor
maybe I'll play some music on the side were you
out at this point oh yeah fully but yeah basically
like that freshman year there was like no turning
back eventually it's also like we talked about
it'd be a small town I'm going back for a second
but I got an email one day when I was at FSU
from my high school british lit teacher the english
honors senior year redact that name but who i
loved but also was very very on the side of christ
and in a way that wasn't like really probably
on the side of christ but god please save me
from your followers and she was wonderful and
very smart and she's lovely person i'm sure but
she emailed me and she was just like and i actually
appreciate her for doing it it wasn't a cruel
thing it was like There are some rumors coming
down the pike, and there's some talk here at
the high school, and basically, like, word up
on the street is that you're gay, and I wanted
to be like, no shit, y 'all been telling me this
for 17 fucking years, and now you're going to
be like, did y 'all know that Wiley Gaby is gay?
I'm like, yeah, it's a self -fulfilling prophecy,
motherfuckers, but I, but so she warned me that
if I, maybe that, if it was. getting around that,
people would see me kissing boys and dancing
at the gay bar, that maybe that I should tell
my parents before they hear it from somebody
else. I understand why you appreciate that email.
That makes sense. Yeah. It was complicated at
the time. Yeah. But also, I think that I appreciate
what she said. And then all hell broke loose.
Things are bad. Things are good. And that's...
So then Chicago, I was like, Chicago was like,
I already felt pretty comfortable being out here.
Comfortable in the sense of like, this is who
I am. Comfortable in your own skin, at least.
More so than I had been. As much as you maybe
ever are. I'm just speaking for myself. Project
that right on. You're accurate. But yeah, it's.
Chicago was just like, that was like full balls
-out freedom because Chicago, right by Wrigley
Field in Wrigleyville is Boys Town. You probably
had watched Ferris Bueller's Day off a lot. Yeah,
I'd seen that plenty of times. I didn't care.
In my head, there is, in the north side of Chicago,
starting at, I don't know, Belmont. 10, 14 blocks
on Halstead that's, like, Boys Town. And it's,
like, rainbow spires on every street corner.
So I think it's, like, one of the first, like,
gayborhoods that had, like, such a flagrant,
like, out. There have been neighborhoods that
are known for being queer or enclaves for gays.
But this was, like, you know, out and proud.
Boys Town. There's no hiding what it's about.
And so that was, like, that was just the best
thing. That was, like, that was where I was.
I lived just north of there. I had my own apartment.
It was like I had no one to answer to, no one
that I would know. And this is the third largest
city in the United States, and it's progressive,
and there's gay people everywhere. And so that
was like, that's where it felt like safe and
secure in a way that it had never felt here at
the time. Even when I felt my most secure, there's
always like head on a swivel kind of vibe. like
somebody especially like wakala you're like you
just can't even now when i like yeah yeah i was
gonna say has that changed really like what's
changed is that everybody knows gay people you
just can't escape it that's what's so nefarious
about this goddamn anti -trans bullshit that
they're trying to fluff everybody that they have
frenzied everybody into it's like such a small
percentage of the population and it's but it's
also very effective in a nefarious cruel fucked
up way because it's weirdly like to me sometimes
not the anti -trans part a sign of progress in
the other areas the L and the G specifically
if you're like white cis male and fit into some
kind of like heteronormative kind of thing and
you don't like Don't get too queer. You don't
get too gayed up. Everybody has members in their
family. It's just unavoidable. Everybody's gone
through that. But the people within the queer
community, specifically cishet white dudes and
others, are also not allies all the time to their
trans people. They don't understand trans people.
They don't want to be included in that. there's
always been a thing with specifically gay men
that like the moment somebody knows that you're
a drag queen, even if you're, that's just like
your job on the side, that that is, you just
lost hot points, right? It's some kind of weird
thing that like, it's such a, so less of a problem
right now. I feel like it was definitely a bigger
problem for. Like when you first went to New
York and back in that. Even now, I would say
there are plenty of people who are racist people
or transphobic people or do things or say things
that are transphobic or racist because, I don't
know. I mean, there are gay men that hate women.
Oh, yeah. That was my next part I was going to
say. So all that stuff. That also goes into the
drag queen. I mean, when I was younger, I was
guilty of it too. Any femininity is seen as,
even as a gay man. So it's like for years, like
I tried, which might be hard for a lot of people
to believe now, but there were parts of my life
where it was like, I was trying to dial in the
most like masculine version of myself, even as
a, even as a out and proud, I was like, and because
it's more attractive. I don't say that it's more
attractive. I disagree with that statement. I'm
saying that it's more attractive. It's considered
that. Or it has been. Perceived as. Such a shift.
And that's one of the things, I will say one
of the greatest things about living in a place
like New York for me is because I still am like,
I say it with love, like redneck from Wakulla.
Like I'm gay and I've traveled more so than maybe
some other people that I grew up with. But I'm
still like learning so, so much. if I wouldn't
have been in Chicago, if I wouldn't have been
in New York City, if I wouldn't have been around
this diversity in all different ways, I don't
know where I would be right now because I've
fallen prey to many of these things. Sure, yeah.
You have that light bulb that goes off in your
head sometimes when you're just like, oh my God,
that is misogyny that I've been perpetrating
and being a part of. Or that joke was like, or
this thing is, whatever I've been doing is like,
Kind of fucked up or that, or, but also when
you first, maybe when you first learn of something
that you're like, that's, or when you first start
understanding, I had like people that were so
patient with me when I was trying to understand
gender and sexuality. And why, why am I going
to this conference? And why is this, how is this
person? Wait, you said that this person was a
biological, like one sex and now is. All the
same questions that I feel like a lot of people
are trying to wrap their heads around now. We've
all had. I think the biggest combatant to hate
is literally just knowing people of that group.
You can't hate up close. Not only that, but you
learn that no group of people is uniform. Except
maybe... Yeah, I would say that. I tell a joke
that I'm like, I'm a leftist, but there is one
minority I fucking hate. But see, the thing about
billionaires is they choose to be that. Exactly.
When you're talking about a uniform, no group
of people that isn't choosing to be that is uniform.
That doesn't make any sense. People are people.
But it goes back to what you're saying. The progress
of everybody in their family, like kind of everybody
having someone in their family to have that experience
of exposure and getting to know and understanding,
like more gay people were out. So more people
knew they knew gay people. And like that. And
then also once you combine just getting to know
people that are different than you with recognizing
that. Your landlord isn't fucking trans. Your
boss isn't an illegal immigrant. The fucking
CEO isn't some. It's just. Come on, guys. It
is wild. But the brilliance of it is that big.
So it's that age old kind of rung up the ladder
kind of thing, too, where it's like they can
say we are fine with LGB. We're fine with lesbians
and gays. We've got some real good neighbors
over there, and they come to church with us,
and they do this, and they do that. I don't understand
it, but whatever it is, that is the norm more
now when it comes to, again, as long as you're
fit. And now, like, we're... I'm not explaining
that to you. I'm just, like, yapping. No, but
I think you're bringing back the point you're
trying to make, that even though there is still
some really... heinous shit against certain groups
of the LGBTQ plus community, there's progress
in some of the letters. Some of the letters are
accepted. We just gotta get the rest of it. That
progress is slippery slope because now they can
say, okay, we can't fuck with this. I'm not gonna
come for... We might tell our fundamentalist
people... in this pocket that we're gonna try
to dissolve gay marriage but we're not trying
to upset people we got gay people who are voting
conservative now whatever the fuck it is but
the fucked up thing is that they can get those
gays right and then they can tell them you but
not your trans friend right you but not your
trans friend so they brought them into the fold
the kind of heteronormative as long as they play
a certain way yeah As long as they are a certain
role. You behave yourself. You keep yourself
within. You keep yourself small enough, quiet
enough, professional enough, not so rowdy, whatever
these rules are. And then you can stay and do
whatever. And we just can't let, you know, we
can't go. That's a bridge too far. And so people
like become, oh. And I think it's great that
we have progress, but that's what makes it so
interesting and so calculated and so amazing
that people don't understand the small, tiny
pocket. Look at the ice agents. Oh, my God. They're
like half of them are brown, but half of them
are Hispanic. I see it. It's just devastating.
Yeah. So I feel like we could talk about this
kind of stuff all day, but I really want to hear
more about. Your story. I think we've talked
about it enough to where it's important to what
you're trying to share. I just don't want us
to go too far down the rabbit hole of talking
about the state of it. One thing I like this
podcast to be is something that will hopefully,
if you listen to it in a year, if you listen
to it in two years, it might be... There might
be some references to stuff going on, but for
the most part, it's pretty much... I love that.
We're talking about stuff that already happened.
Evergreen biography. As much as we can. I think,
that being said, you can never separate what's
going on in the moment from the way you're telling
the story now, too. Sure. So I think it's important
to acknowledge the context in which you're telling
the story, not just the context in which the
story happened. 100%. So you... You moved to
New York. Well, like, what kind of drove you
to New York out of Chicago? The cold. The cold,
really? No, if it's as simple as that, then that's...
It wasn't as simple as that. I had never been
to New York. I'd been always petrified, like,
a little bit to go, but always... Muppets Take
Manhattan is one of my favorite films of all
time. Me too. I love that movie. When it starts,
like, the skyline, it shows the Chrysler building
and everything, and, like... I had that on vinyl,
actually. I still have a copy of it that's scratched
to hell and back. Does it have the track where
they're playing the song in the diner on the
glasses with the spoon? I think so, yeah. Because
that's the moment. That's such a great moment.
The first time you get Riz and the Rat. The music
is what brings Kermit back. Yeah. Anyway. Together
again. I watched it so many times. I used to
get so... With that tri -star horse that would
come across the screen. We had that recorded
on VHS. I love that movie so much. But that was
my first, that was my New York first time being
really in love with that. But I had never seen
it and never understood its scale. And coming
from Wakulla and a small town, our nearest neighbor
was like a mile away and it was my grandma, right?
Yeah, yeah. I grew up in the middle of the woods.
So Chicago was big, but Chicago was also very
manageable in a way. There's something that's...
I say this with love, like it's a good thing,
but there's something so Midwestern, provincial,
something about Chicago that's so, it's very
welcoming in a lot of ways. Did you have a similar
kind of affinity towards it through movies like
Ferris Bueller? No, no. Because we mentioned
Ferris Bueller and Jess, but I think like Blues
Brothers. I had, I feel like there's a very specific
Chicago movie that I can't think of. Was it Mannequin
Films? No, that was somewhere else. There was,
I definitely had Chicago movies like. the Hughes
films and stuff like that. Like I, but it was
not like, it just wasn't like as strong of a
transmit. There was something about, even though
I was living in Chicago and it was a gay Mecca
for me at the time, something about New York
really screamed that something about the edginess.
I've always been like, I think of like when I
first started to get out of high school and met
some, my first gay friend. he introduced me to
a ton of great music and I remember Debbie Harry
has always been like instant light instant just
wow that's the most beautiful woman when I was
younger that's the most beautiful woman she's
so sexy she's so amazing she's so edgy her songs
are so good but they're also it's like there
was some amalgamation of that and that kind of
like something about that gritty but like pretty
and stylish thing I've always when even like
back in Tallahassee I remember being like if
you could wanted to mesmerize me by a person
or something like that it's like being at some
party where the older kids were at and there's
some, I guess we would call them hipsters, but
somebody like standing, going to Railroad Square
back in the day and like seeing somebody who
looked like, I would, I don't know what we used
to call them. I'd be calling them like, I look
so indie or some stupid shit like that. No, maybe.
Yeah, but. Goth or. That kind of, somebody who
had their own kind of style that was something
different. Tattoos and. Jagged hair, whatever
it was. I think you're touching on something
that's interesting about Tallahassee and probably
a lot of cities of its size is I don't know that
we had enough of the weirdos to really have denominations
of weirdos. Right? They all were together. It's
like the freaks and the punks and the goths and
the hipsters. The epitome. They were all hanging
out at epitome. All together. That's where I
met some of the... That was one of the first
places the epitome was like... Actually, that's
where I first played... That's where I first
played music with a guitar, like, writing my
own songs. The first time was an Epitome open
mic. I can't, like, that just... Anyway, I know
we're past that. No, I can't. Now I just want
one of their mocha milkshakes. Oh, my God. I
would go smoke Camel Red Lights and the Epitome
on the smoking section. We used to call that
an orgasm in a glass. Oh, my God. Oh, my gosh.
Shout out to the Epitome mocha milkshake. We
love you, Epitome. So I worked next door at Floyd's
as a teenager. That was my first job was at Floyd's
Music Store. Legends. Yeah, it was crazy. I remember
carrying Vince Neil's guitars and Gwar's costumes
and shit. It was fucking bizarre. But then we
would also get these one -off. Kenny Chesney
would stop and do a one -off club date on his
arena tour. He'd do an acoustic club date at
Floyd's. Kenny Chesney. On his arena tours. Wow.
That's so crazy. What a cool spot to work and
get to be around at that time. It was wild. It
was otherworldly. But I've never, beyond being
in a boy's ensemble or choir or whatever, I'm
not musically inclined. Part of it, and one thing
we've talked about on this podcast a lot, is
you have to really want to do it, too. And I've
never... like what you were saying earlier like
things that were like easy for you right away
were things that you always were like that same
way and music was never easy other than just
singing along or whatever music was never easy
for me and i never could like i tried guitar
lessons and things like that but never when it
came down to it i didn't want it bad enough to
put in the practice or whatever i could understand
that there have been times when i have not wanted
it bad enough to put in the time. I struggle
with that even now, of being like where I maybe
wish I was in various parts of my life and think
to myself, maybe one of the reasons I didn't
get there or where I wanted to be at a certain
point is you have to put in the time. I don't
think I've seen how important that is, especially
in music, until a lot of us, or I can't speak
for a lot of us. a lot of times in my life i
have thought i have this great song and i have
a decent voice and i can do this and i know i
can entertain these people and just somebody's
gotta find this out right yeah and i'll be discovered
and it'll all just work out and what on the upside
it is i think it's easier to find your audience
than it's ever been right sure but it's also
harder it's hard yeah i mean It's like more possible.
Yeah, it's real tricky. Let me ask you this.
Were you still wanting to be an actor when you
moved to New York? No, I had set that. I burned
that down. I just didn't. I found when I was
in Chicago trying to do some Second City stuff
that I had fun with it, but I didn't. The theater
school of it all was a lot for me. There is.
It's competitive, and it's not always very welcoming,
and it feels extra and cutthroat sometimes. When
I was younger, I didn't enjoy, I didn't find,
let me say, how do I say this? I did not feel
like I belonged as part of the community. I didn't
feel... And that could be... I see. Like in the
theater community? Yeah, I just felt... I was
like, this doesn't feel right to me. And I also
don't feel like I trust these people. And it's
no disrespect to anybody. It's more of my own
insecurities than anything at the time. No, but
I... And what strikes me is it sounds like you
were first drawn to it because you felt you could
trust these people and you could relate to them
and they were maybe a safe haven for... And it
almost seems like... once you were your were
out once you had like figured out who you were
and were comfortable more comfortable in your
own skin maybe like the rest of it wasn't like
what was left for you wasn't yeah that appealing
anymore it wasn't it wasn't but also yeah i just
remember This is going to sound so pathetic because
I don't hang on to this in terms of does it make
me feel bad, but it made me feel really bad at
the time. I was doing a play at Tallahassee Little
Theater. It was probably one of the last plays
I did, and it was like I was the lead, and I
was having so much fun. Katie Sharver wrote me
this. It was my first time I ever got reviewed.
It was glowing. I was so proud, and I was having
such a great time. And two of my castmates, both
of them who are amazing actors and were really
good, and they were a little more darlings of...
the crew that I was I think they both wanted
the part that I got so that was one part of it
and I think that was like and maybe it was just
all like unintended stuff but I remember right
before we were going on for like the opening
night and I was just like sorry it was like at
that point I thought I was famous right because
I hadn't even left Tallahassee and I had gotten
a good review and I was in the Democrat limelight
Big Fish Small Pond exactly that's the story
and it was really hard because coming from what
color where I was Big Fish Small Pond It took
me years in Tallahassee. I felt like I really
had to fight to even get to that point because
I felt like I got to Tallahassee. You go to FSU,
especially at the time, theater school, music
school, those are the best singers and actors
I've seen. So talented. Yeah, I've seen some
incredible shows. Some of the best shows I've
ever seen. I have seen more great shows back
in the day at FSU than I have on Broadway that
I've paid too much money to see. But right before
one of these guys, they were giving me a... break
a leg kind of like let's do a thing and then
they were just like one of them said something
to me like for me and Derek this is we're actually
like planning to do this for a living like some
kind of comment he said was like definitely intended
to be a dick move but also and to rock my game
or whatever but it was like shit like that where
people are trying to get in your head so you
don't do well I know that I don't think either
of these people would do this today and neither
of them would think anything of it. But the fact
that you would do that to somebody that you're
also like in the production with. Right. So you're
willing to sabotage your own situation because
somebody got the role and they're doing good
at it and they're getting praise for it. And
so you think that it's a good idea. So that kind
of behavior doesn't, I'm sure it exists in music.
plenty of places it definitely exists in comedy
yeah i'm sure it does i'm sure like probably
more than i've seen in other communities sometimes
i can see that yeah just sometimes i think partially
because it's it is like it's a solo thing yeah
in hair like completely and everybody is in it
for themselves and everybody thinks that they're
the funniest or they'd be writing the jokes that
the other people are telling you know what i
mean like Were you trying to pursue anything
when you moved to New York? In my head, I was
going to pursue music. You were scared. I was
scared. And also, I had gone back and forth.
I was bartending, and then I was working, and
I got pulled into a publishing job. And I was
like, oh, I'll do this publishing thing, and
maybe I won't worry about music anymore or theater
or anything like that. Maybe I'll be a real guy,
do a real job, whatever the fuck that means.
And it's funny because... I wish I could go back
and tell myself different, but you start to get
a certain age. You're like, Oh God, I'm 24 now.
I probably should like give up this dream. I
got to get this. It was the opposite for me.
I was a young dad and it wasn't until like my
kid was an adult pretty much that I was like,
Oh, now I'm going to, now I'm going to do this
shit that I've always wanted to do. And, but
I understand what you mean. Cause it's, I still
like my clock's ticking. I feel the same way.
How old is your son? My daughter, she's 18. Yeah.
But, yeah, it's, like, at this point, and I don't
really talk about her on here. Sorry. No, that's
fine. I'm just saying. It wasn't until, like,
I was, like, I played that game of, okay, I got
to get the real, do the responsible thing for
all this time. And it was. the opposite for me
once i didn't have to do it anymore or didn't
feel like i like it was too risky to do what
i really wanted to do i was like all right i'm
gonna you know this is you only live once this
is my only life that's where i am right now yeah
and i think once you get there no matter how
you get there like that's when you set yourself
free yeah i hope so My question is, when you
started writing songs with frequency, with a
regular basis, did you find that outlet start
to calm some of the other stuff in your life?
Yeah, it's taken a long way for it to get to
that point. When I first started writing songs,
it was not about processing things for me as
much as it is now. I think that I wanted to...
I cared about the songs, and I cared about...
what i was writing about to a certain degree
but i was definitely i wanted to do a good job
and to have somebody tell me i did a good job
probably it's like at its most basic like i mean
i feel like the baseball story like there may
be something to the right we got lots of stories
for it but i i i was writing songs for other
people for a while not literally but I was like,
how do I make this cool? How do I make this...
I see what you mean. Creating for the approval.
You were writing stuff you thought other people
would like. Not stuff for yourself. Exactly.
And ironically, most of that stuff is... That's
not entirely true, but that definitely colored
the experience more than it does now. Whereas,
especially with these new songs... I've written,
I feel like they have, it's about stuff that
is heavy on my heart that I need to say that
I don't know how to say in a conversation or
that I am unable to say in a conversation or
that just it's too much for my emotional life
to be able to handle it a normal way. So then
I could get that out and just tell the truth
and not, and just be like, you know what? And
also choose for me, not. What makes me happy?
What do I like? Instead of trying to craft. You
can see the work sometimes when you look back
at some of the stuff that you do. I know I can
with my work. When I look back at songs, whether
I've recorded them or it's the lyric that I've
written, I look back and I'm like, oh my God,
that's actually pretty good or nice try. We must
use flowery language or like this. I have to
find some kind of interesting wordplay here.
And when really honestly like the simple truth
is fine. And frequently what I found that resonates
more with me when I'm writing is like sometimes
the most simple stuff. I don't give a fuck is
that song came out like one of the fastest songs
that's ever come out of me. In fact, the point
where I didn't really feel like I had earned
it and I didn't think that. I was like, I don't
know if it's even good. It feels like it's just
some whatever. But it was like just riding through
the aftermath of a conversation. I don't give
a fuck. Streaming on all platforms this Friday.
Thank you so much. On Dial Back Sound. On Dial
Back Sound. So you're in New York. I feel like
I... here's where we are in the story you're
in new york you find the queer yeah country the
queer country community i like the alliteration
there he's a the qcc man if they're not using
that they definitely you're welcome thank you
so much but it sounds like that's when you were
like your fear went away right because you started
yeah yeah or started or That was the catalyst.
That was the real turning point for me. It became
something that started to crystallize to me what
I could do, what I wanted to do, what was possible,
and that maybe I had found some people. It sounds
like you found a way to be yourself. Yeah. Because
this is the story I've heard so far. You have
these two kind of identities that are... constantly
put against each other sure being this rural
red redneck town boy and queer as hell yeah and
they're those things are at odds yeah until you
find this community in new york yeah absolutely
and also what was so cool about it is not just
because it's like this queer country thing right
but like also that i get to be in new york and
in brooklyn and i can pull out a song that Maybe
I'm singing some old George Jones song that my
dad used to love to hear me sing, and I can play
it here, and these people also love it and know
the song and remember and had the same experience.
And that's what I mean. All aspects of your identity
are being embraced in this community for the
first time. Yeah, and it's really exciting. And
because it was the first show. First off, in
New York, it is hard to get people to come to
shit. So it's easy to get people to come to the
first thing you do if you've never done something.
Sometimes I got a bunch of friends to come. They
all were really supportive. And so I was like,
now look at this. I'm the singer now. I'm a singer
songwriter. And I'm like, and so like. What I
realized very quickly is you have to learn like
your, your friends are, you can't rely on them
because. Burn them out. Not only that. If you're
going to do what you want to do for real, your
friends can't be the ones that carry you. 100%.
They can support you and all that, but once you
perform five times a month in the same city or
five times a week or whatever, you're like, no,
dude, I don't expect you to be there. 100%. And
not only that, I can't rely on you to be. I need
to be focused on getting other people that have
no fucking clue who I am. Absolutely. And you
have no stakes in it. No skin in the game. You
don't have to be worried about me in a different
way. Is this song about me? Right, exactly. Or
are they going to fuck this up? Are they ready?
Whatever it is, is he going to crack a note?
You date somebody and you meet somebody and you're
like, I'm a singer -songwriter. And then they
come out to a show. They're like, oh, God. I'm
sure it sounds good, but then they also, more
frequently, I think, before they see you, they're
like, oh, God, what if they suck? I'd almost
like that to be my first date. I always say.
In a way. I'm going to meet the man of my dreams.
He's going to see me doing, he's going to, it's
going to happen, like, me doing, I'd rather him
come to a show, see me doing what I do, and then
talk to me than the other way around. Or even
if I, like, meet somebody on a dating app or
something, I'm like. I might suggest you come
see me. Because then they can, if they hate what
I'm doing. They can walk away. I don't never
have to even know they were there. That was smart.
You got a lot of good ideas. For all you single
musicians out there. What's terrible, though,
is I'm terrible at following my own advice. I
think a lot of us have that problem. I definitely
do. I definitely do. I know a big part of your
story is reconnecting with Teresa, who you briefly
mentioned earlier in New York. Teresa Jimenez
was in Tallahassee for a good chunk of my college
years playing in a band called the Silver Daggers.
Absolutely. That I used to go see all the time.
I still, when I'm driving to Sob Shoppy, I'll
put that record on and listen to Sob Shoppy River.
Oh, good. So good. I still have that CD. All
for the money. And I remember when Dave. Broke
his arm. Oh, yeah. And he played a bunch of shows
one -armed. We were probably in a bunch of shows.
It's such a small world. But you reconnect with
it. She moved to Brooklyn, and I'm like, to me,
my side of this story is like, well, the final
nail in the coffin of the music scene in Tallahassee.
Because at that point, venues are closing left
and right. Everybody's just doing cover songs,
and not only that, they're just doing covers
of stuff you could hear at karaoke any night
of the week. 100%. There wasn't much going on.
And Dave was actually in this other band called
Me and the Devil. Yes, yeah. But that band moved,
Silver Daggers moved, and I'm like, fuck. But
the other side of that story is you get Teresa
in New York. We met in high school. production
of The Wizard of Oz at Leon High School here
in Tallahassee. You were the lion and she was
Dorothy. Absolutely. And so we met. I was enamored
of her. We got along really well. Her voice is
just otherworldly. Best singer I know. And her
presence. And now I met her when she was years
later when she had developed all this stuff as
a solo artist. a front person of a band, right?
It's magnificent to watch. Magnetic too. Like
you can't take your eyes off of that. Yeah. I
say all the time, I just get goosebumps because
it's like, it is, it is, it is, it's, I don't
know. I don't know anybody. I don't think personally,
definitely not that well who has what she has
and can do what she does. It is. It's just magnificent.
When I met her, she was a freshman in high school.
She pissed everyone off, I'm sure, because she
came in and got the lead role. It was just so
good. It was just a perfect voice at that age.
And I was a senior at the time, so it was like
I was feeling good. I had come from Wakulla and
got cast as a lead of Leon with the big dogs.
Yeah, yeah. And so that meant a lot to me. People
had always welcomed me. It was a big deal for
me. I'd never been in a musical before that was
real because McCullough didn't have the people
to do it. That was the first real musical I'd
ever done. When Leon put on, they would have
summer productions. That was the summer, yeah.
Because anybody could audition for the summer
one. And that year it was at TCC because they
were renovating. I went out for South Pacific
one year, but I didn't end up. I just didn't
end up doing it. It was too much of a commitment
for. I did the same with one of the things the
year before. I think I'd gotten. Maybe I was
doing like. They put me in the ensemble for Oklahoma
or something. And I decided against doing it,
whatever the fuck it was. But that summer we
met. That was great. We fell in love. It was
over. I went to do college, and then by the time
she was probably starting FSU and getting into
the scene, I was already gone to Chicago. Did
y 'all stay in touch this whole time? Not really,
not much. You reconnect in New York, and it was
like old friends that hadn't spoken in years
kind of thing. Meet Teresa very randomly. So
the Silver Daggers had come to Manhattan. And
I had no idea. This was probably like 2012? Right
around that time, yeah. And so I was, I ended
up reconnecting with Teresa. And so we, at this
time, like the same within months of, or weeks
of, weeks of the Queer Country thing, I get connected
with Teresa. But she wasn't there at that show.
She wasn't at the show, no. And so like, and
so that was very weird. And so it was like reconnecting.
with her and so it was it's been years like a
really long time and so and so but it seemed
probably like a sign it was like looking back
i'm also i mean like wow this is really like
crazy how this all worked out it just blew up
it always blew my mind it happened it happens
All the time living in New York, though, like,
or you, especially when I was first there, it
would just shock me. You run into people, like,
ghosts from your past, like, you think you're
never going to meet somebody. Like, the first
night I was ever in the middle of Manhattan,
I ran into three different people I knew from
the most, like, not people you would expect to
see there, right? One day walking to school,
you meet, like, this guy I went to high school
with in Wakulla who I haven't seen since graduation
day, like, pulls up in a car driving through
Manhattan. Because he rented a car, whatever
the fuck. It's like the random people you walk
into is very weird. Who rents a car in Manhattan?
Exactly. Exactly. So anyway, so like running
to Teresa, we reconnect. And so we start, and
I'm playing music. And then like they're playing
music. They're wanting to play music. The Silver
Daggers are playing in New York. So I'm just
like, let's play music together. In my head,
I was like, I'm going to open up for. them and
they're going to do their thing that's what we
that's what kind of what we did like i mean that's
what we would do and i thought i was like here
we go got it got my partners talented people
haven't seen this is my i after i had a couple
of good shows i was like i'll do i'm just gonna
put my shit out there and so i reached out to
there's a gay bar a leather bar slash music venue
slash whatever on the west side in the west village
in manhattan called rock bar and it By day, sometimes
they like shot like porn or whatever in there.
You got to make your money. But at night, their
goal was to be a place where queer musicians
could also play. They wanted to do that more
than they probably were able to because, you
know, the money was more in like drag shows.
Like that was very like a bare leather adjacent
kind of crew, super friendly. But I didn't know
anything about them except there were gay music
venues in my head. So I like reach out to them
and I'm just like. I sent them a picture and
a bio and a clip from the concert. Essentially
a press kit. Yeah, a little press kit. And they
must have thought that I was way better than
I was, and they definitely thought I was better
looking, I'm sure, because that picture was real
good. But they gave me a night immediately, and
we ended up having a really good turnout. Because,
again, that first show look was like, I've got...
I've got this spot in Manhattan. I'm playing
in the West Village, blah, blah, blah. And after
that, they offered me a monthly. Eric and Rick,
I love you. They offered me a monthly show, Sight
Unseen. I think they thought that that same crowd
was going to come every month. And I think I
did, too, because I'd never done any kind of
monthly kind of thing. Not only that, but you.
are looking for confidence anywhere you can get
it at any point for sure that's so true i mean
i and i don't mean that in uh in any way but
no it's so true yeah like you think and i speak
from experience myself yeah you think oh everybody's
super excited about the first time i did this
thing they're gonna be this excited every time
or it's just like acid it's like the first time
It's the same thing. It's like, oh, that first
time was off the chart. So then the second time,
you're like, it's still good. Yeah, yeah. Not
the same. No. I think there is some truth to
that. Like, it'll never be the same. Sure. And
you always remember your first. Amen. But I think
once you stop trying to recreate your first,
no matter what it is. 100%. That's good advice.
I'm going to. Once you let go of the idea that
all your friends are going to come to every show,
you no longer are bummed out when none of your
friends come. Eviscerate those expectations because
it actually makes life so much easier. Freer.
So did you and Teresa start playing a bunch of
shows together? We started playing shows. We
had a really great show. And then the Silver
Daggers were no more. And so I was really bummed
about that. Everybody, I'm sure, was bummed about
that. Yeah, we were, too. I mean, I remember
when that happened. Yeah. So around that time,
I got to meet this guy, Jeff Doker, who was from
Tallahassee and grew up here. And he and Teresa
were lifelong best friends since, like, preschool
or something. Okay. And so I had never met him.
And so, like, he just had to be living in Brooklyn.
He is an angel sweetheart, just one of those
rare Cubans that is just like. a unicorn of a
man, just kindest, gentlest, smartest, brilliant
soul. And so we all became like close. And Teresa
and I had been, I've been working, I've been
hanging out with all of them, but like Teresa
and I like continued to work together and we
started playing songs together and doing more
stuff. And we found out that our voices, anybody's
going to sound good singing with Teresa Jimenez.
I will say that like that right there. But. Or
bad. Or terrible, right? Believe me, I've done
that too. I feel like if you're not up to snuff,
she might expose those cracks real quick. You
know what? You'd think she could, but she would
never. No, no, no. I mean, it's like being...
I don't know. If I were to stand... What am I
trying to say? Nothing that's going to sound
good. But yes, I 100 % agree with you on all
levels. So we started playing music and we started
singing together. And then everybody was writing
stuff. And Jeff, who was like, I forget his role
at the time. He's got lots of degrees. I feel
like he's got a PhD in mathematics or something
like that. I'm sorry, I'm forgetting. But he's
one of the smartest people I know. But you'd
never know. No pretense about him at all. And
he was just like, we were, Teresa was like, hey,
Jeff emailed a song. He was very interested in
our music and he was like involved in giving
us advice and stuff like that. And he was becoming
a new friend for me. But then he basically had
written a song called Searching for Strangers,
which is on the Golden Child record that we did.
And it was a duet he wrote for me and for us
to sing. And it was like a country song. And
I couldn't believe that it was a song by somebody
I didn't know was a songwriter. It wasn't like
a first, it wasn't a first outing. It wasn't,
like, all that sweet. It was like, hot damn,
this is a great song. And it's, like, complicated
and complex in ways. And it's really, like, well
done. And he has all these ideas musically that
just, again, genius brain. And so, like, Teresa
and I. And it's on that record that you put out
in, what, 2015? Yeah, yeah. It's on Bridges.
And Teresa's on that. She sings on it. And so,
anyway, so we, that was what brought us together.
So it was, like, we formed this band called The
Choir Diary. I would sing my songs. Jeff would
write songs. And Teresa and I would co -front
the band, basically. So she'd sing her songs.
I'd sing my songs. We'd do harmony on each other's
stuff. I would play some keys. We'd each play
guitar. He played bass. And we were just this
makeshift little trio. And it was like, for me,
I'd never been in a band before. I'd gone from
not playing music to suddenly now playing with
my friends and hanging out with them constantly.
It was like everything that I... I was in heaven.
I was like, oh, it's happening. It's happening.
It's all happening. Delusion about how I probably
sounded, if not all of us at the time, right?
But if not to feel that way, then why the fuck
are you doing it? And also, if you look across
the stage at you, and Teresa Jimenez is there.
and she's smiling back at you and singing along
and having a good time, and she thinks with her
talent that it's worth her time to be on this
stage doing this thing with you, then surely
things are okay. And so I feel like that was
validation. Things that are normal for a lot
of people were just first times. We're having
a regular scheduled band practice. And I imagine
the fact that you hadn't had years and years
and years of a solo act. Yeah, yeah. allowed
you to be open to their ideas a lot more you
weren't like ingrained in these like habits that
you had formed on your own good or bad like there
and open to kind of everything definitely I was
like I was so excited to be around people that
were like that were interested then also like
it's so nice when you have somebody who is a
great friend and a great musician and whose work
you also like a resonance yeah you have that
mutual respect yeah and it's like i know that
i yeah you know that it's like you you're like
i actually would choose to listen to this i this
music not just because i know you not just because
i like you not because but not even because you're
technically good at some aspect of it but because
i like this shit to me is great and so being
able to work with somebody that you can say that
about and think that about and not be convincing
yourself that yeah feels good yeah yeah no i
i totally know what you mean it's been a long
path to figure out like what i was like how to
channel some of this energy like at one point
i started like a small record label and there
were like the artists that i was like i it didn't
really go anywhere We did some recordings and
they're actually being remastered by John Kurzweil
right now. But that's silly. You did that. You
decided to do something and you did it. That's
to me like always. And I learned a lot that I
learned a lot doing it. And I also, but there
were those people that I was like, had to convince
myself that were worth my time. And then there
were the people that I was like, no, this is,
there's no question. Yeah. And if I trusted my
gut a little bit more, I probably wouldn't have
wasted time on people that like, cause the people
I recorded with and got the most done with are
the people I really wanted to be working with.
And then there were other people that ended up
just being a distraction. It's, I feel like that's,
it's always, it's all, it's like, it can't be
expressed enough. Like that gut check is like
super important. Yeah. It's like, I've still
learned how to listen to it, learn what it means.
And I get it wrong a lot, but like imposter syndromism.
bitch yes so those two things fighting those
two things and figure out what's what or what
completely ego driving the bus versus what there's
also been on the flip side too i have dismissed
other artists at various stage in their like
journey for whatever stupid reason or none that
was worth talking about and find myself later
being like oh my god this person has worked so
much harder than I've worked, which is not to
put in context of me, but like just seeing what
they've done and how hard they've worked and
how good they've become and how I'm looking up
to them for, for stuff. And they're becoming
like somebody who I might not have, I might've
been sleeping on because of whatever like thing
I thought. And that person is actually, turns
out there are people in my life now that like,
I, did not invest in and luckily I still caught
that relationship while there was still time
to not in a transactional way just to be like
some of my closest friends I you know I was too
at my own ass maybe at a time to to think about
connecting because really honestly like what
I learned way too late for me is that all this
it only matters like about the connections in
the community and it's not about like and determining
what success is like and And what I find the
most rewarding things are not like the, it's
not about getting a certain amount of likes or
a certain amount of people or a certain venue.
It's about the feeling of being involved in a
community that's got each other's backs and who
is stronger together and makes things. And there's
something that really like soul affirming. About
having people appreciate your art when you are
being like your purest self, when you put it,
when you pour like your real true self into that
art and people appreciate that. Yeah. And not
in like you said, like a likes or a transactional
way, but like in this like really transcendent
way. Like, I don't know that there's anything
better than sharing some of those moments with
a crowd or. Yeah. And sometimes it can be silly.
Sometimes it can be traumatic. Yeah. But yeah,
having, pouring your like soul into something
and having other people like it or respect it
or appreciate it is so much, it's so different
than trying to make something for other people.
Yes. It's so much more important. Yeah, of course
you do. I made this for you to like it. Also,
back to expectations, too. It's the same thing
we're having. We talk about people sustaining
your shows or whatever. If you raise those expectations
and you do decide, I'm going to make this for
me. I'm not going to try to figure out what I
think is best for whatever. Those are also like...
I don't know. It's much more rewarding for me.
It feels much more authentically me. And the
irony is that more people, in my experience,
have resonated with the songs that I make for
me and the songs that I write for me, whatever
that means. Where I'm not trying to make those
people happy are the songs that get the most,
that have the most resonance with others, it
seems. Absolutely. And I think that's true for
my jokes as well. And it's also the only thing
that makes you, you like, it's the only thing
that's going to make your art unique in any real
way. I don't worry about, Oh, has anybody else
made this joke before? Sure. Because I'm telling
it from such a personal place that even if there
might be making the same joke, it's so true for
me that I just don't give a shit. It's your story,
right? Yeah. Your version, you telling your story
or whatever story. It's going to be, like, unique.
And anything that's not, anything that's, unless
you're, obviously, like, there are times where
you're like, oh, I'm going to play it at this
venue tonight, so I'm going to maybe not sing
that song or maybe adjust my word here because
Aunt Susie's in the audience and I love her and
this fuck is going to offend her. That's one
thing that I could do once in a while. I don't
mind. I'll be on the radio. I'm not going to
get kicked off the radio. But I'm a lord. Well,
I think it's really important to know how to
perform for different audiences. Sure. There's
a clean comedy show every month in Athens. It's
just in a coffee shop. And I think it's so cool
to just have that be a thing that they have.
Oh, I'm going to go do five minutes of clean
comedy. None of them necessarily are clean comics.
Sure. It's just a skill. And the parameters,
setting that parameter in that box is so helpful
sometimes for creating something like it's like
a game. Restraint can be such an inspiration,
like such a source of inspiration. I agree. I
don't, I'm not a prude in any way, but I'm all
for because vulgar or whatever is you want to
go, but I totally unrelated, but. I'm never a
fan of vulgarity for vulgarity's sake. 100%.
I don't need it, but what's amazing to me is
when somebody can create something that can't...
I don't know if you've seen the movie Train Dreams
randomly, but on Netflix, it is beautiful. It's
a very simple story. It's heartbreaking, and
it's gorgeous. It's a stunning movie, and it
is... completely, I think, inoffensive. I don't
think there's a curse word in there. The sex
scene is so tasteful, right? And it's a story
that I feel like I was so moved by watching.
I know my buddy in a punk band loved it. I know
I could watch it with my parents, and both my
parents would love it without any kind of moment
of, we gotta pause this or I'm gonna walk out
of the room or whatever the fuck it is. And it's
nice because it's also not like, it's not a Hallmark
movie. It's not a Christian movie. It's like
a Hollywood movie. Miyazaki, I think, is another
great example of that. Think about My Neighbor
Totoro. Oh my gosh. There's not even any conflict
in that movie. It is like the most calm, clean
piece of art. So beautiful. It's a really good
companion to LSD. I've always thought, I've spirited
away. Oh, that's an intense one. I've done it.
I've watched it on mushrooms before. Yeah. Mushrooms
are a little harder to control, though, I think,
for me. It's true. In terms of, like, I don't
want to... Sometimes it gives my tummy a whirl.
Well, there's that, too. Yeah. Yeah. So you put
this album out in 2015 with Teresa and... Yeah.
And what was... I'm sorry, what was his name?
Jeff Doker. Jeff Doker. What were, like, were
you... Did you think that was... I... Yeah. i
thought i thought we were i thought our band
was gonna be like we were just getting to play
at this like one venue in williamsburg spike
hill which is now gone and it felt like a big
real venue we had a friday night show all this
kind of stuff like i've ticketed we weren't the
opening act it was like i was like we're gonna
do it and then theresa theresa hit the west coast
and i was Which is what she needed to do and
it was perfect choice and whatever but at the
time I was devastated I was like we're just getting
to this point where like I think we could be
something and having Teresa gone felt it was
like oh god like I'm not good enough to do this
I can't like and then but Jeff and I still wanted
to play music and we were and we had gotten other
folks that we would have play in the band with
us. We had a lead guitar player, we had whatever.
And so we had a full band and I was like, oh,
I want to do something. I don't want to lose
this momentum, but I felt so despondent. And
so I was like, I felt like I, and Jeff was like,
well, you just go and do it without Teresa. We'll
do the same thing. And I was going to be okay.
And I was just like, I was struggling because
I was, I didn't think I could. And so like, I,
and I didn't want to be like. Well, and she had
always been there at this point. Yeah. At this
point in the band stuff. Right. And taking me
over, having her there also meant that I had
this, like, I knew that if I fucked up, that,
like, I still have a superstar on stage with
me who can, like, keep it all going. But she
had been there, like, through you even, like,
really coming out of your shell as a songwriter,
too. Like, she had been, like, a major component
of all of that. Yeah, and we were all, like,
as we still do. I mean, we still have a choir
and I already chat that I talked to all the way
up here earlier. we're workshopping stuff and
like sharing that kind of stuff but that was
the first community and also it was also so new
it was very short -lived like period of time
it was just like and I was just I thought oh
it's over before it even started and so then
I but then I was like you know what I'm going
to we had talked about wanting to make a record
I I had like enough songs between me and Jeff
and like doing a cover or whatever that we could
like make this record and so we were like we
tapped a producer And we had no idea what we
were doing, especially me. Did a Kickstarter.
And then also I had to decide that I didn't want
to be Wiley Gaby. I didn't think it was like
right to be this band that we'd all been doing
something together and then suddenly call it
the Wiley Gaby Band or whatever. It just felt
weird. It felt like I was, it felt manipulative
or something. Yeah, yeah. And I felt if people
were going to be involved and invested in this,
like it would probably be better if we had like
a name that was not me. And I was talking to
some friends and we missed, instead of, gold
star gay which I think is the actual term is
and I was like aren't you a golden child or something
which is like a gold star gay as someone who
is maybe you all know what this is in the audience
but so I was like that's a perfect I was kind
of like my mom is baby golden child fits I'm
a golden child gay and so that's that was just
like that was that just worked because also we
couldn't find another fucking word and so that
gave me some kind of like mass to create behind
and yeah I use the stage name too It almost helps
you be more honest. Yeah, 100%. It's weird. The
same thing as Bowie or Gaga or anybody doing
that kind of thing or anybody who puts on a fake
name or changes to a stage name. It makes so
much sense because at that point especially,
it was necessary for me to be able to. It somehow
lowers the stakes, which allows you to bring
them up, I think. Just while we're on the topic,
and then I want to jump back a little bit, but
what made you want to return to using Wiley Gaby
as your name? Because it never, because the reasons
that I, you know, aside from wanting people to
be, I'll say a number of things. The reasons
for me not being Wiley Gaby were not compelling
enough. It was mostly fear -borne, and it was
mostly like... feelings of inadequacy and feeling
uncomfortable with stepping into that and being
like, this feels egomaniacal or this feels like
narcissistic or whatever the fuck it is. But
as my bandmates, I think at the time, you should
just be Wiley Gaby or whatever it is. I mean,
it's also a great name. I understand when people
use a stage name and they have a name that they're
like, no, you're just like, no. don't use that
my parents gave me Wiley gave me it's already
I was it's got all it's got humor and it's got
like uniqueness and it's so finally I like got
comfortable with that idea and also logistics
wise too it's it was weird for me because I was
part of this band called Golden Child that was
like primarily me and Jeff songs too and Jeff
did a lot of work on that record but There was
a time when Jeff wasn't, it was just me performing
as Golden Child or me performing with a band,
a variation of the band. Yeah, yeah. It just
felt, also then it began to feel weird to be
like when I would, I moved to Nashville for a
brief year and was like, I'm going to play music
and playing solo shows. And I'm like, my name
is Wiley Gavey. If I play as Golden Child, that
feels weird. I didn't know how to do it. I didn't
know how to make that work. And I was very inconsistent
with it. And it started to feel like. oh something
just felt disingenuous like the thing like it
started to feel like like why wouldn't i just
be myself and i remember talking to somebody
maybe a pr person and they were just i was like
i'm thinking about releasing my next record as
wiley gaby and doing this solo thing and they're
like why would you do that you've got you started
golden child already you already started this
thing you're gonna have to start from scratch
on your social media or whatever the fuck it
is all that stuff and i'm just like and that's
probably some really great advice i definitely
if i would have stayed performing as Golden Child
and just gone under that name, it would be probably
easier in some ways. But playing solo and calling
myself Golden Child felt weird. Trying to make
that work also. But now it's been confusing up
until now because I haven't had music out under
the name Violet Gaby and only under Golden Child
is that touring as much as I have in the last
couple years. Do you play a lot of those Golden
Child songs now, like live? Not so much. I play
like one or two of them. I was playing... Up
until maybe the last year, I was playing a good
deal, at least three of them pretty regularly.
And that would be my... But the only music I
would have online would be... So I'd play some
of them, so that would be... Because I liked
playing them still, and I didn't have much else
to play. But trying to explain to people, like,
my name is Wiley Gavey. It's Golden Child. And
then you go to find Golden Child. There's a ton
of people like that. There's a K -pop band that's
huge. Yeah, I came across that. I was so pissed.
Well, that's also another reason. There was also
stuff like that happening. I feel like when I
first was doing it, I found it was a Golden Child
who was a rapper. That's a good rap name, I've
got to say. Such a good rap name. Such a good
rap name. Also, our music would get confused
on Spotify. Apple Music, especially back in the
day before they had similar technology. You could
have just leaned into it and toured together.
I probably should have. Although, in my head,
I was like, he is way too cool for being way
better than I am. He probably doesn't want to
hang out with the queer country golden child.
But, so there was like... Let's start sampling
your songs. That would be a good idea. I'd be
neck on all of this. Do a Chopped and Screwed
record? I'm going to put this under some heavy
consideration. So, Teresa... does the west coast
thing you're devastated by it you pick a name
we've talked about how you get back to it but
at what point do you get connected with dial
back sound and how what am i missing in the middle
there because i feel like there's a few years
there maybe discovery of myself yeah i started
making so i worked with mark ephraim who's a
really amazing guy He's in Sweden now, and he's
from the States originally. He was in Brooklyn.
He produced our first record, and he and I were
looking at making a... I can tell he's smarter
than us because he got the fuck out. Yeah. Yeah.
Also, he has two kids that basically... So they
had dual citizenship, and so it was impossible
for them not to be. This is overshared, too,
but basically it's like... they could go after
the youngest kid was like three and they could
still go and move and get retroactive family
leave and all this other kind of stuff. They
had to basically leave Brooklyn where they were
like, you know, everyone's struggling to like
pay rent, like go live, not have to work for
two years while they got to spend time with their
kids because they got their retroactive parental
leave for both kids. That's four years later.
It's fucking crazy. America is the best country
on earth. There is America, man. Come on. I'm
sure there's. There's something terrible about
Sweden, I'm sure. Their fish are just bland.
It's red and gummy. I'm more of a grouper fan.
I'm a Sour Patch Kids guy. So what in between?
So Mark. Yeah, so I met Mark when we were working
on a second record. Starting to get some percolating.
He moved to Sweden. And those never quite took
off. And then I decided to move to Nashville.
thinking to myself, all I need to do is move
to Nashville. That's where I need to go. That's
where you go to see what is said is so. Yeah,
that's exactly what happened. I didn't want to
leave Brooklyn, but I convinced myself I needed
to, and I had a nightmare of a time down there.
It just wasn't my... I love Nashville to visit.
I loved visiting there so much. I have wonderful
friends there. It also wasn't fair to Nashville
at the time. I did not want to be there. I convinced
myself to go, so I found fault with everything
there. I see, I see. You know, it is different.
The great thing about Nashville in terms of music
is that everyone there is amazingly skilled.
If you're not, then you're not going to get to
play. And whether you're playing at 10 o 'clock
on Broadway in the morning at a bar or the person
that's playing at the Bridgestone Arena or East
Nashville, whatever it is, it is shocking. I'm
sure you've been around it. Yeah, I love Nashville.
To visit. Yeah, to visit. Also the best food
and beverage. The world, I will say that they've
got down pat. I think their food and beverage
is frequently more interesting than the music
stuff. But it's a lot. But back to playing against
good people, Nashville was a place where I was
like, oh, you've got to step your game up. If
you're going to do this for real, because this
is different than New York. In New York, we get
away with being a little sloppy and stuff like
that. And I didn't realize how different scenes
in different cities. I started to see more difference.
I think about Nashville. I mean, think about
Isbell and the way his shows are so polished,
so meticulous. He wants to perform the best version
of his song every night. And that is not the
way that the drive -by truckers play, for instance.
They're much more organic. And I wouldn't say
sloppy. They're very tight. But it's much more
organic and it's much more feeling -based. Vibes,
I feel like. And I think... That kind of illustrates
the difference between, I don't know, New York,
but... I think there's a... But I think it definitely
highlights what Nashville is all about. Nashville
is about making the most polished, best version
of every song. And, you know, there is some merit
to that. I don't think that's always the wrong
thing. You just inspired a song. Hold on one
second. Yeah, please. I was like... I don't know
what it is, but something about machine and the
sheen. But there is something about that polished
perfection, and obviously it's... There we go.
It's like they talk about the Nashville machine,
and you talk about that, and there's just so
much. I guess with the New York, I feel like...
This is probably not fair, and a lot of people
in Nashville would probably disagree with me.
Nobody in Nashville listens to this show. No,
I'm just kidding. That's right. They're polishing
something. So I see in New York, I saw a lot
of stars. I saw a lot of people who had this
on stage. Right, right. Something dynamic. Yeah.
I saw people in Nashville who could out -sing,
out -play, out -core. outside of the like within
the choreographed technical things who could
outplay and do anything who could sing like perfection
but also who did not move me I have been moved
watching more shows in New York I think if that
doesn't sum up Nashville music for me I don't
know what would I think that's like the vibe
so but it taught me how to with the exception
of Jason's he's done something really unique
where He's brought that polish to these really
deep songs. He's brought some soul to the polish.
Yeah, it's really unique. His stuff is fantastic.
It's still not my favorite approach. Sure. I
remember a guy I dated years ago who was really
into music, and he was like, I would play something
I loved, and he would be like, ugh, it's so overproduced,
and it's so this and it's so that. I didn't really
know what those things meant. And it was like,
and now I get it. It's like sometimes that sheen
and that polish take away the life of the soul
of what's in there. And some people like it a
little rough around the edges, a little more,
like, you know, real. Also, like, you get that
sheen. Obviously, the precision and amazing technique
of the players is one thing, but it doesn't always
feel real, right? I mean. Yeah. No, and it doesn't
feel real to me at all. I think that's what.
makes it feel soulless is it becomes so perfect
that that only somebody like jason can like through
and make you feel something when it's because
it's and i think this is true not just about
country music i think it's true about pop music
hip -hop like i think when you reach a certain
level of production and this is why i can't get
into the AI music thing at all. Regardless of
any of the morals behind it, it doesn't have
any soul to it. But I also understand it's so
appealing to so many people because they've been
fed music that has no fucking soul for the last
50 years. On repeat, right? Same 40 songs every
week. It's crazy. And even now, the car that
I'm driving has... It doesn't have Bluetooth
or anything like that, which is like really cool.
So I could listen to the radio back in the day
in Tallahassee when I'm here. And so V89. Hell
yeah. Of course V89. But like sometimes you flip,
you go through the dial and you're just like,
what has this become? Like it is just, you know,
or if I want to feel, if I'm feeling like I want
to be in a pop, yacht rock, whatever the fuck
vibe, maybe I'll just star 98, whatever it is.
That stuff is just the same. it's still a same
number of songs like i can tell you because i
i hear the same like ones play like they always
the top 40 format yeah it's just for whatever
genre they're using yeah there's so many other
fuck use ai to find some different fucking songs
in there there are plenty of them just like i
used to do this music trivia and a game like
at a bar here in town and i would have so much
fun finding all these little songs that like
everybody would remember them when I'd play them,
but they hadn't thought of them in fucking years.
And that was always really fun to me. So you
get out of Nashville. Yeah. I peace out there.
And when I feel like I started to like, you know,
I was like, okay, I'm going to go back to New
York. I know what I got to do. I started to make
some new connections. I feel like I'm starting
to be taken a little more serious. I've met some
friends in Nashville. I feel a little more comfortable.
And then like, I got, I'd say that. The way I
met Matt and the Dialback crew was like stuff
that never happens. When I got a submission form
off the website, you know, it would always be
exciting to me. I'd be like, you've got a new,
you know, basically somebody's been to your website
and they fill it out. They want to talk to you.
And you're like, okay, it's going to happen.
It's going to be like you're going to play this
show. And it's actually like somebody, some bot
or some kind of, you know, company overseeing.
sell you something that you know some scam whatever
it is like this one was from matt patent and
i didn't know i didn't put anything together
at the point it was just like i got a random
message maybe it was band camp maybe but it was
something like band camp or my website and it
was he was booking for the great dying the buddy
the guy i was talking about who's on dial back
will griffith and craig pratt who was playing
in time and so coming through and Reached out
to me saying that they were coming through New
York. He had checked out my stuff on Bandcamp
and listened to, he particularly mentioned my
cover of There's a Light That Never Goes Out
that I had done for The Smiths. And he thought
that we would be a good match for me to play
with them and would I be interested. And I was
like, so instantly I was just like, somebody
reached out to me. know me and they listened
to my music and they thought it was good enough
to talk to me and like they want me to put up
and i was just like absolutely yes and i was
like i can't wait then i was like no i think
i was maybe done some snooping like after that
i was like who are these people and then he's
like you know digging around i'm like holy shit
matt is like the bass player for the drive -by
truckers and obviously like matt's not gonna
lead with that and be like But also a lot of
other people. He's America's bass player. He
is. I love watching him on stage, too, because
it brings me so much joy to watch him. He's the
happiest I've ever seen anybody. He's the happiest.
I love watching it. I don't get to see that side
of him so much in conversation and other kind
of work. Yeah, I asked Taylor. And Taylor is
just like, that's his happy place. That's his
happy place. He's not like that all the time.
It is. It is. Yeah, everybody's got, it's lovely
to see. It's lovely to see it. Because you can't
also like. Well, he's the sweetest guy in the
world. 100%. But he just, I never see anybody
so happy than when I see Matt Patton on stage.
I mean, honestly, it kind of reminds me of Jeff
Stoker, who's like. you know, maybe sometimes
the same off and on stage, but he played that
bass when we were in the band. And my mom would
always say, he just looks so happy. But Matt
says that same thing. I love watching him. Sometimes
I'm like, I don't pay attention to the other
guys because I'm just like, obviously I know
him, you know, but just seeing that side of him
that is so obviously authentic. And sometimes
their songs are pretty dark. Sometimes you need
to see somebody smiling. Yeah, right. No shit.
But yeah. One thing that struck me was this,
like, How you start to get into Americana music
and the alternative country side of things. Because
one thing I didn't hear you talking about up
until now is it's not like you grew up listening
to Wilco. No. You know what I mean? Those influences
came in right at the end of high school. But
you would have eaten that shit up had you been
exposed to it. Oh, yeah. And when I was in Chicago,
I had friends who were just like, you need to
be listening to this. Nico Case is my, after
Dolly Parton, Nico Case is my number two. She's
my number 1 .25. Like, I am. Like, the new pornographers
are one of my fifth fucking period. I would say
that now that Morrissey is everything, that,
like, I could say that they're safe, you know,
one in the top three of my favorite bands. I
love them. They were, when I heard them the first
time, I was like, what the fuck is this? I was
like, I never heard anything like something.
It's another one of those groups where you just
have, you have three. Greatest songwriters. So
good. Like, A .C. Newman is just... Oh, my God.
When my producer and I, when we started to go
to record the second record, so A .C. Newman
was on tour with the New Pornographers in Europe,
and my buddy and his wife wanted to come. We're
going to, like, come into the States for the
summer. And so they did a housing swap kind of
situation. They're friends with those fuckers
or whatever, and so, like, basically the... Newman
and Christina, they all went to stay at Mark's
house when they were coming through on Sweden.
So we got three days at their house. They had
a little studio in his little work shed. I got
to stay in the guest house, which is apparently
where Nico Case sleeps. I feel like I'm really
name -dropping or whatever. It helps the SEO.
It's fine. It was so cool. For me, Mark was being
so cool and being like, hey, we're going to go
to Carl's house. What do you think? I'm just
like, you know. these are people that i like
my heroes yeah and so like the idea that i'm
like in this guy's house in his studio like working
on it i'm sad that we did that was that was the
seeds for what eventually is becoming this record
which has been a long time like i it was surreal
so those new pornographers were were huge but
for me and nico case and wilco like was not as
strong as an influence but definitely like you
know but this is all you got into this stuff
like kind of later in life later in life stuff
And all like, so I'm cramming while I'm playing
music, kind of like. You are what you listen
to. Yes, that's it. Thank you, Alicia Walker.
So I started listening to nothing but Nico King.
Because I can't not. It's like, I mean, I could
listen to those records over and over and over
and over and over again. I am obsessed with them.
With and without her boyfriends. Yeah, yeah.
With and without. I actually, I started, I did
it from New Orleans last week here. And I was
just like. I was tired and I wanted to listen
to something, but I wanted to stay awake. And
I was like, you know what I haven't done? I'm
just Nico case. I just started with the Virginian
and went and listened to every record all the
way. I didn't finish hell on, but I, I, I got
to Crawfordville. I think I definitely must've
listened to something in between. Cause those,
but it was like, just, it was great going through
the whole thing. I was working at vinyl fever
when like twin cinema and the golden age. Yeah.
Like those destroyer records are coming out.
And, yeah, no, I got to see Dan Behar play a
solo show. I think it was as Destroyer, but it
was just him at Club Down Under. Oh, wow. Of
all places. Oh, that gave me chills, too. And
I've seen Nico at The Moon, and I've seen AC,
like, I've seen the new pornographers with, you
know, as AC Newman, but he didn't have Nico.
He had Dan Behar, but he didn't have Nico. So
it's, I've never seen. the full pornographers
lineup. It's good. Yeah. It's, it's a bucket,
like it's a bucket list for me for sure. How,
how does playing a show or some shows translate
into, okay, I'm putting out my next single on
that. Yeah. So basically we had the show with
the great dying. It was right. One of the great,
we just instantly became very, very close, like
best friends. They had friends in New York that
all became very good. close our friends nick
and nicky it just became like i felt like i was
suddenly welcomed into this crew then came back
through we played again and dialed back and we
had this house show and i was might have had
a mushroom or two and i was like watching them
i was they were here for that we had a show next
night it was a house show and i did not play
i just went to go see them in our friend's house
and i was watching them and like having this
moment the trees were outside in the fall and
like leaves are coming down and The guys are
playing and it's beautiful. I start crying. I
love just thinking to myself, I need to work
with these guys. I need to make music with these
guys. I'm going to work with these guys. And
then Will gets off stage and he's, I just had
an idea. You know, you need to make a record
at Dialback. I was like, I was just thinking
that. So, and then, so, you know, started talking
about doing that. And it was, you know, it was,
it was also like Dialback was a different, a
slightly different setup at that time. There
was. I won't go into this. It's somebody else's
story to tell, not mine. But things have changed
a little bit. The team at Dialbox changed a little
bit. And so that led to something that, for many
reasons, took a little longer to get to that
point. I got you, yeah. Restructuring. Yeah,
some reconfiguring of things. And so a lot of
stuff was going on. COVID happened. Just when
things were starting to get really like where
I thought to myself. So you linked up with these
and had the idea to put this out before COVID
hit. It's around that. I guess right around COVID.
Like 2021 or whatever. Yes. And I think when
they first reached out to me, I want to say it
was 2019. And I had just gotten back. And so
we played our show and it was 2020. And then
it like the world. Yeah. Crash. And, like, New
York was the first. It was, like, basically we
played a show on February 20th, and by March
12th, New York was already shut down. I was in
Atlanta, like, the last day the aquarium was
open. Like, I was in the aquarium the last night
they were open. It's 2026 now, and that was 2020.
That seems crazy. It is. So, yeah. Time is weird.
It really is. Oh, fuck. But I, like, so maybe,
like, maybe it's two years after. Or a year and
a half after that, we're talking seriously about
making a record. I go down to Mississippi and
check things out. And then one of my best friends
got diagnosed with cancer and went from being
like this 42 -year -old woman, six months later,
gone. Really aggressive, really awful. Thank
you. Also, like Emily Wilcher, there's a... for
her on the record and and i feel like she's been
a catalyst for me to light a fire in her mind
like her spirit and her energy because she was
always a big supporter and right around that
time was when the time i was i need to get off
my ass and do this what would emily say right
now she would tell you that girl what are you
waiting for and get out there and do your thing
and and right around that time my buddy asked
me to go on tour i've been on tour and so like
i did that i was like i'm gonna do these things
Start getting more serious about this stuff.
I'm going to go to Americana Fest. I'm going
to do, like, this and that. I'm going to make
this record with Dialback. Record with Dialback
just took a while to get to for a number of reasons.
Well, it sounds like you were writing a lot during
this time, too. Yeah, I was starting to. So,
like, the record, like, you know, it maybe didn't
come out or get recorded when you initially planned.
It's good that it did. It turned out to be a
totally, maybe a totally different record now.
Because what happened, honestly, is I was in
Nashville, and I was like, I don't know what
I want. I don't have for this record, but I'm
feeling the anxiety and the push to make something.
Everything from this record has kind of come
from the outside in a little bit. And it was
like, in my head, I could see a record cover
that I wanted, and I knew that I wanted it. It's
going to sound so stupid probably right now,
but hopefully it'll make sense when the LP comes
out. Fantasy Country was coming to mind. I love
that. It's inspired by... Lord of the Rings or
whatever graphic novel I loved as a kid or some
kind of world that looks like ours, right? But
that maybe has a little bit of magic in it. Maybe
there's a vampire. Maybe there's a unicorn. Maybe
everything else looks the same. I don't know.
This surreal queer country fantasia world that
is the embodiment of that I will create the world
for myself. I did not have like I will have this
like this hero's journey kind of moment. It's
like me in a swamp. And instead of me on the
four wheeler as a kid playing by myself, imagining
that I'm Luke Skywalker or Princess Leia, depending
on the fucking day like that, like this is I'll
create this world of like fantasy country, whatever
that fucking mean. And it'll be like just like
about like queer stories or not or women's stories
or whatever stories. It's just different from
that. It'll it'll be where. Nothing is out of
place here. Everything is welcome here, and that
reflects in the sounds. I want stuff that, like,
I want Brian May on a Dolly Parton song. I want,
like, I want these different things to come together,
and I'm not going to, I don't care if he tells
me, especially if it's, like, a music snobby
person who's going to be like, well, that feels
very, like, cliche, or that feels very this,
or that feels very opulent. I'm like, you know,
bitch, that's what I want, opulent. I want to,
like, have the, I want to have the... whatever,
I want to have that world come to life. But I
had no content for that, nor did I know what
that was going to be. And it sounds like, regardless
of, it's all very intentional. Yeah. I wanted
it to be, and I definitely felt like it was happening
to me, and I was trying to follow breadcrumbs
to get to where it was, but never really felt
like it. For a long time, I was like, what the
fuck are these songs? How does this mean anything?
This is a great idea. Like, in terms of, like,
I mean, I liked the idea. I liked the idea of
some weird fantasy country vibe. Like, what does
that mean? And, like, if you're, and then I'd
write a song that I liked, and I'd be like, this
is definitely going to be a song on the record,
but how is this, what does this mean? How does
this have anything to do with what you're talking
about? And I'm just like, I'm just going to stop
listening to that side of myself and just put
my foot in front of the other and continue doing
what I'm doing because this is just ideas. There's
nothing set in stone. I'm kind of following those
breadcrumbs. And so it started. It starts to
make sense to me now, like in ways it's really
fascinating for me because being aware that I
had nothing to show for my idea other than like
some images and some ideas that didn't really
seem to go together. And trusting that process
and just like writing and letting things flow
and then like, oh, there are patterns here. And
maybe the answers aren't clear like at first,
but they become clear and you're like, oh, like
what you're doing is creating this. I remember
talking to Matt or his former partner before
now and trying to explain what the record was
about and trying to explain this silly idea.
And I think it's just a record about learning
how to love yourself. And there's something that
throws journey about it. And all this sounds,
it's not new territory. Nothing groundbreaking
about it. No, but it goes back to what we were
talking about earlier. As long as it's authentic
to you. but when you're so deep in it it's hard
to see how it can all come together especially
when it is coming like from a really personal
place but then when you put it out there and
it's perceived by others the fact that it's all
so tied to this one person and comes from this
honest place i think gives it that unification
that you can't see when you're in it and making
it. 100%. When you're in the weeds like that,
you've got to get that balcony or have somebody
else get away from it. We're playing this Friday
at the Flickr. This Friday as in... I mean, it's
actually... We're recording this the week before.
But this Friday at Flickr as part of the Dial
Back Showcase that happens now every year at...
Is this going to be your first time going to
the Drive -By Truckers Homecoming shows? Yeah,
this is my first. I've been to several other
shows, but not to the Heathens Homecoming. I
will tell you, this will be like my 17th. Oh,
yes, play more. I don't know what I can tell
you except that it's not like any of their other
shows. There is something about that room, about
the people that come. mostly about the people
that come really, you know, like what's amazing
to me about this group of people is like, some
of us don't even talk throughout the year very
much, but it's like, we picked back up and known
each other 10, 15 years now. And some of us have
only known each other four or five years. Some
of you still meet each other for the first time
next week. Cause it is always rotating a little
bit. People were getting older. When I started
going, I was the youngest one there. I started
going on my early 20s. And everybody else was
in their 30s, 40s. And I was the baby. Yeah,
I was the baby, 100%. And now it's like, it's
a much more, there's a lot more people my age.
But they weren't there then. So it's just weird.
Well, it's cool to be in that, to see that. Well,
a lot of it's. The people are bringing their
kids. Always. And I'm like in this weird in -between
spot age -wise. I feel like a lot of the people
that have been coming for years and years are
like five or ten years, at least more like ten
years older than me. And then a lot of the other
people are like five, ten years younger than
me. In a sweet spot. This weird little... But
what's amazing to me, it almost reminds me of
how our cells completely regenerate every seven
years. but we're still us. That's kind of what
it feels like. I love that analogy. That's so
cool. That's kind of what it feels like. It's
like even, you know, there's a lot of people
that were foundational to us being as organized
as we are and raising the amount of money that
we do. Like shout out to Hank, Hank Matthews,
who was, he's no longer with us, but he was one
of the like backbones of the community. And then
when he passed away, other people, really stepped
up and, and, and to see it recycle and maintain
its identity all at the same time is really,
it's, it's a beautiful thing. Beautiful. Like
the way you put that too. That's really special.
I feel really lucky. Be a part of it. You have
a mutual friend named Craig who I grew up with.
He was like one of those people like turning
me on. Like he bought, he gave me my first fucking
slobber bone record. 20 something years ago and
I finally got to see Slobberbone at Shoals Fest
like four years ago but we were watching I think
it was the Black Eyes Verite concert that they
filmed and it's on like Amazon Prime you can
watch it but it's over and he looks at me and
he's crying and he's like I've been looking for
what you found my Higher life. He's like, I'm
fucking jealous. He's like, I'm like, God damn
it. That's beautiful. I'm really excited to have
you there. I'm also excited to have some of my
part of the South represented up there. The truckers
have not played very many shows in Tallahassee.
They don't get a lot of love here. They've played
here and not a lot of people came. They've played
here. I used to see Jason play solo to 20 people.
I've talked to, it's not always, the stop don't
always make the most sense for people at a certain.
But on the other hand, Chuck Reese curates it
from Southerner and now Salvation South, curates
a stage at Word of South every year. And one
year it included Hood, Patterson Hood, the whole
Spooner Oldham, like all of the old Muscle Shoals
guys coming in and playing a bunch of. eddie
hinton songs wow and it's like one of those things
that goes down in history in this in this community
and it happened here here so it's that's the
kind of like i don't i don't understand why it
happened here it was a pretty packed room it
got moved indoors because of the weather but
it's really cool to me to see this of our little
enclave of the Big Bend, the Florida Panhandle,
the Forgotten Coast, whatever the fuck you want
to call it, be brought into all this. Yeah, it
feels very exciting. Just listening to you talk
about it, put it to me in a way that when you're
doing it and trying to do it, I definitely have
hometown pride and stuff like that, but to have...
I don't know how to articulate this, but that's
like touching and gives me like juice because
I don't think about it in terms of, I think about
it in terms of I want more representation for
me and my friends and then the people that I
think do great from this area and like having
that, but like also the people here are proud
of that and having, I don't know, having that
inclusive, having being included in that world.
When Matt reached out to me to ask me about the
show, it's so funny because he texted me and
he was just like, I was going to ask you about
this. I know it's a long trip because I was in
Brooklyn. I assumed he thought I was going to
be there during the time. I guess I wouldn't
do this. Of course, I didn't understand at the
time that it was part of Ethan's homecoming.
He just said, I've got the showcase, whatever.
But the casual and generosity. of him and bringing
me to, I have never had anybody other than like,
and friends and stuff like that. No, no body
like Matt share any interest in what I'm doing.
So like to have somebody, maybe the only person
who's cold reach out outreach to me like that,
have it be somebody who is working on it when
such a great band and multiple great bands and
who has this mission to help people out. The
fact that he's willing to. invest any of his
time and resources in me and been so welcoming
and the fact that i get to play this like i get
to release my first record under my own name
fulfilling like a dream i'm super excited about
it but i get to also have my release day show
as a pre -party for like the fucking drive -by
truckers right it it's like i don't it's like
one of the things that i intellectually understand
like i don't have my my body is still like catching
up to it yeah yeah right It's been like, I've
just, I pinched myself a lot. Just that somebody
is championing anything that we're doing. So
it's amazing. I'll say that he's also pretty
fucking smart. Putting you in front of the perfect
audience. Sure. I mean, I'm, I'm, cannot wait.
I Don't Give a Fuck is streaming on Friday. Yeah,
streaming everywhere. If you're listening to
this, it's either about to come out or it just
came out or it's been out for years. Who knows?
But when is the full album? Do you have a state
for that? We don't have a firm release date.
We have a targeted area. I think late summer,
early fall is what we're looking for to have
everything out and have it play on vinyl. And
we did 10 songs. We track 10 songs. I think nine
of them are going to make it onto the record.
And right now we're just in the middle. We're
trying to finish up overdubs. It's taken. They're
used to at Dialback doing things like going in
with a band and capturing everything live and
getting that mix on their big, beautiful analog
board. And we went in with pretty straight down.
It was like me and Matt on bass and Bradley Gordon
on drums. He's a local. He's a sweetheart. acoustic
guitar and singing and we captured you know we
just went through and knocked him out and a few
days in water valley and with starlin brown browning
who's a awesome engineer and co -producer and
then we've been doing overdub world to bring
the rest of it to life which is at first i thought
was going to be real fun and it has been really
great but i don't communicate with people very
well when it comes to my ideas i talk about my
music ideas and like colors or cinema or like
you know feelings and uh still learning like
the right vocabulary so like doing that remotely
and also working with new people it's like i
we've matt's introduced me to so many great people
and luckily we've all learned to work around
my quirks and my craziness and like you know
you find people who like You can talk to and
describe something musically in terms of something.
And they get it. And they're like, oh, you mean
like this? And everyone's like, yes, Ryan Jewell.
There's just so many great people on this song,
on the whole record. But Jay is on there for
the song, plays Farfisa organ. Obviously, Matt
is the co -producer and bass player. And Marissa
Paternoster, who is an amazing, amazing guitarist
in New Jersey, who was previously part of the
Screaming Females. So that was, like, a delight.
Like, I got connected to her through my friend
Paisley Fields, and then Matt brought in the
other folks. Like I said, Ryan Jewell from Ohio
is just amazing. He played drums for Riley Walker,
I think, for the Drive -By Truckers. Matt was
like, man, who's all this guy? I don't know,
just the guy for this. I think, like, play with
Riley Walker. Man, he's good. It's not a bad
impression. I'm working on it. People who have
just... taken such good care. Kel Kellum is amazing
pedal steel. He'll be all over the record. He's
a Mississippi guy. Hope I'm not missing anybody
on that. It's exciting to have these songs that
you've never heard fleshed out because I've been
playing everything solo. To have these strangers
come and find your people and bring it all to
life. That was my next question. Do you have
any plans to get together a live band? Want to
just play solo? I would love to play with the
band every night of the week. Logistics are the
only reason. Logistics and budget are kind of
the thing. I'm so excited. I get to play with
Kel, who's Pedal Steel. I'm going to play in
Mississippi the week after next. I'm going to
play in Thacker Mountain Radio, which is in Water
Valley this time, and Proud Larry is in Oxford.
I know Proud Larry. My buddy Cody plays there
a lot. Cody Shade Harrell. I know that name,
yeah. He's Dick Burnside's bass player. But I
grew up with him. He's been on the show, too.
Great place. Played his show here. Anyway, we
could talk all day, and we're going to – I think
we might have gotten the folks to Athens, though.
You're going to tour, it sounds like. You're
going to be on tour. I'm releasing this record.
I'm going to be on tour as much as I can be on
the road. I got a lot of shows. I'll be in Tallahassee.
Yeah, The Bark on February 25th. Yeah, and then,
like, I'll be at Fingers Cross Pride Fest. I'm
doing South by Southwest. I'm going to California
in April. I'm doing a little Florida, a couple
of Florida tours with an awesome band named Cooper
in Gainesville and Short Sack. Trying to keep
myself, trying to just get out there, and now
that I can tell people that they can find my
music by my actual fucking name. Well, it's been
really awesome talking to you, Wiley. Thank you
so much. Thanks for being here. Is there anything
else you want to say before we wrap this up?
Just a big thanks to Mom and Dad and my family,
and also to Matt and all the Dial Back crew,
everybody who worked on this record, and all
my friends and family for putting up with me,
and I hope you all like the music. We'll love
it. We'll see you all at Flickr on Friday. We'll
see you come down. If you're in Tallahassee,
come out to the Bark on February 25th. There's
links to all kinds of stuff in the description
of this episode. It's been awesome. Thanks for
being here. Thank you so much. Thank you for
having me. This has been awesome. That was my
interview with Wiley Gaby. It was a long one.
I hope you enjoyed it, but we got into all kinds
of stuff. I didn't really want to cut anything
out. If you're in Athens on Tuesday, the... I'll
be at Flickr Bar doing a short set. Come say
hey. Otherwise, we'll see you at the Rock Show,
y 'all. Be safe out there. And if you're enjoying
this podcast, please check out the Patreon link
in the description of this episode and on the
description of our page. It's just a way for
us to try and make this podcast sustainable.
I do everything from the booking, producing,
editing, and releasing and marketing of this
podcast. I'm really trying to make this something
that I can keep going for the long haul thanks
for listening hit that subscribe button we'll
see you next week