WEBVTT

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I think attention span is way down. I think people

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are often focused on capturing video and pictures

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and stuff. So you get a fair amount of the crowd

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who's not present in a certain sense because

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they're spending their time filming, I guess,

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for later consumption. I'm always like, where

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do these videos go? You know what I mean? You

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never see them later. Welcome to Overeducated

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and Underemployed. We just hit a thousand subscribers

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on YouTube, so thank y 'all so much. Tell a friend.

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And if you're listening and haven't subscribed,

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hit that subscribe button now. We got a really

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cool episode this week. A lot of people in this

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community, a lot of people I've interviewed,

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and myself, can relate to the statement that

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rock and roll saved our lives as a teenager.

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And Justin Long was the guitar player for one

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of the bands that saved my life as a teenager.

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I don't really have much else to say other than

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I've been friends with this guy since I was a

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kid. He's one of my ride or dies. He's been there

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since I was a kid. I grew up hanging out in his

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recording studio and going on the road with his

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band. My life wouldn't be what it is without

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people like him and him specifically. So here's

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my awesome talk with Justin Long. We get into

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it all. I'm overeducated and underemployed. I'm

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here with Justin Long. Justin Long is a guitar

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player. He's a producer. He's been in bands for

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at least 30 years. From Stash to the Petty Nicks

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experience. Oh my gosh, Stash, yeah. With a band

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called No Address somewhere in between. And we're

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going to get into all of it. But I'm going to

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ask you the first question I ask everybody. Yeah.

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And what's the first song that you remember loving

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as a kid? The first one that really got me was

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Walk This Way by Aerosmith. oh wow yeah i just

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i was hanging around with some older kids and

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it was the era where people were getting cheap

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record players and old records from garage sales

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because they were like all a dollar and somebody

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put on toys in the attic and i heard walk this

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way and i was like i don't even know what that

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is but i want to do that i literally didn't even

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get it i was like i don't know i don't understand

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i didn't know what guitars were i didn't know

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what anything i just was like whatever that is

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i want to do that and it took me probably a year

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to figure out what that was and then i got a

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guitar and then etc so that how old were you

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yeah 12 or 13 so it but it was like right away

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it was immediate i was just like i don't literally

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this is pre -internet dating myself we're gonna

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do that plenty we're gonna do that plenty it

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is great to talk to you by the way yeah dude

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It took me like a year to figure out what that

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was. You were just like playing. And then I went

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out and found the record. And then I was like

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playing the record for people. And I was like,

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what is this? Asking adults and stuff. And I

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finally figured out, oh, that's drums. And then

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here comes the guitar. And I was like, oh, guitar.

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I think that's the thing I want to do. So you

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like deconstructed it. Yeah. That was probably

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an early. I guess even going back a little earlier,

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I guess that was the thing that made me want

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to play music. The first stuff that really got

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me was I used to ride around with my grandfather,

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Pops, listening to big band music. And all the

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orchestration and all the parts working together

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was always so interesting to me. I couldn't really

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name a song now because I was just... Sure, yeah.

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A kid. But the way everything worked together

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was the thing that was so interesting to me.

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And then I think when I heard that Aerosmith

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thing, and it was like the classic drum intro,

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and then the guitar comes in, and then the rest

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of the band comes in, and the way it was all

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put together, it was like instantly, man, we

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got to do that. So at what point did you start?

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First of all, where did you grow up? I grew up

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in Tallahassee, in Killarne. What was one of

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your first concerts that you remember going to?

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Gosh. Yeah, I just started wanting to do anything

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rock and roll. And we had so few options. And

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probably even fewer back then. Probably even

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fewer back then, yeah. I don't want to say that

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I definitely... It was the guys right above me

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in age that really started making an accessible

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scene. Anyway, there was... Do you remember some

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of those band names, like some of the local bands

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that you were seeing? Oh, yeah, of course. I

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was just talking to Kim at your party. Bacon

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Ray, definitely. What was Tommy Hamilton's band?

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I was obsessed with Tommy Hamilton. Gruel. A

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little later, I got aware of Magic Wand. But,

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dude, we would go. This is, we would go literally

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listen. the cab stand, like all the cover band

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places. And we would just ask them to like prop

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the door in the alley. And we would just stand

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in the alley and just listen to band cover bands

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all night. And I can't really think of any names

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other than like John Kerswig. You're like under

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age. Oh, 15, 16 years old. And we would just

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be like, well, you just like prop the door and

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we'll just stand or the cab stand. We'd get them

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to, I think they just kept the door open. for

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the door and we would just stand outside and

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just listen from outside to all these cover bands

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it's so funny because like i i had the same struggle

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but i just started talking to all the local bands

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and be like hey i'll pass out flyers if y 'all

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get me into the show i think just annoyed them

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because we'd pounce on them they'd come out for

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a smoke break and we'd be like hey what's that

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i saw you push that one but what's the what's

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that and they'd just be like kid anyway so you're

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watching the sound guy you're watching oh yeah

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but my first maybe not my first big concert but

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I remember seeing Van Halen and Alice in Chains

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was opening for them on their first album and

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I did see Aerosmith pretty early on not much

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though there just weren't many opportunities

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which is why we wound up just like sitting outside

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doors like listening to what we could hear from

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the parking lot because But you knew immediately,

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like, the moment you became, like, a fanatic,

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you knew you wanted to make music, too. Oh, yeah,

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absolutely. It was, like, simultaneous. It was

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immediately the only thing I wanted to do. How

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did your family react to that? Not well. Not

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well. Yeah, man. No, they were cool. It was obviously,

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like, and I... For a minute there, I had a lot

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of trouble in school because all I wanted to

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do was play guitar. And we had to get a little

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balance on that, which was great. But yeah, left

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to my own devices, I would just practice guitar

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eight hours a day. It was just all I wanted to

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do. And I've been pretty lucky to do mostly that.

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Yeah. I can't think of a time that I really remember

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you having a normal job. No. And I mean, once

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I became aware. Yeah. And later I did, but they

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were all also music related. You know what I

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mean? Yeah. Yeah. And, but yeah, that was my

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thing. I just, I don't know what snapped in my

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head, but I was like, whatever that is. And then

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of course I was a big of the Nirvana generation

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where I probably looked exactly like this before

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it was cool. Like I was a huge, nerd and social

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outcast until Nirvana came out, luckily, when

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I was in, I don't know, I guess ninth grade.

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And then all of a sudden it was cool to play

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guitar and have long hair. This is probably a

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little after your time, but it reminds me, there's

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this episode of an animated show, a kid's show

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called Doug, where all of a sudden the look that

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Doug has worn every day for the entire show.

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He's like the most popular thing around. Yeah.

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It's like on the TV show. Yeah. And everybody

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shows up dressing like him. Yeah. And then the

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next week, the fad changes. Right. And they're

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like, why are you still wearing last week's fad?

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Yeah. And he's always been wearing it. And it's,

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yeah, it was a little bit, I got lucky to do

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that. Yeah, anyway, that was my early music stuff.

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I'll tell you a funny story, too, because I was

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maybe 14 or 15, and we were going to make a little

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EP. And I don't know, somebody just looked up

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in the phone book where you would record something,

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because we were just doing the GarageBand thing,

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but we were writing some songs. Or Phil was writing

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songs, at least. Phil Morton. Phil Morton, yeah,

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who I've played with since the very, very beginning.

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And we were going to make a little EP, and we

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just looked up where to go. And it was Flamingo

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Studios, which I don't remember where that is,

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but it's here in Tallahassee. And the engineer

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was John Kerswig. And that, I think, is where

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I met Kerswig. But it's what got me later, not

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even later, it's what got me into producing,

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was I realized, I thought it was just about the

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playing and stuff. Like naturally, you're just

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playing in your garage and you're just hanging

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out and you're playing and you're writing songs.

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And I just thought that's what it was. And like

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many people do, like recording an album is just

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like taking a picture and like you just we're

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just going to do our thing. But then I saw Kurzweil

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putting in the process and doing things to make

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things sound. And all of a sudden it started

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sounding like a record. And I went, oh, there's

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so much more to this. And oh, maybe I want to

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do that, too. Or maybe a realization of. oh,

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what I really like is records. Like, I love playing

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and stuff, and I really do, and love performing.

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But, oh, like, maybe what I really love is records.

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And that was where I first got the idea that,

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oh, there's more going on here than they just

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put a band in a room and press record and...

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I mean, unless you're like Steve Albini. Oh,

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sure, and there are producers that work that

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way. But even the idea of doing multiple takes,

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like when you go in at first, you're just like,

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what? We just played it in our garage and it

00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:35.059
was great. And then you go into a studio and

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you play it and you're like, take one. And no,

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I think that's good. Let's listen to that. And

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then you walk in the other room and you listen

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and you're like, oh, that's not what I thought

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it was. Like, that is not nearly. I'm trying

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to think if I ever even had that illusion. That's

00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:51.820
interesting. Yeah, I totally did early on. And

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then I started realizing like, oh. there's some

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magic fairy dust on this but you probably had

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more of an exposure and i can't remember if we've

00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:03.519
ever had this conversation to like pop music

00:12:03.519 --> 00:12:05.799
and stuff when you were a kid because i for various

00:12:05.799 --> 00:12:08.440
reasons had almost none okay you know what i

00:12:08.440 --> 00:12:11.139
mean so that's i think that's an interesting

00:12:11.139 --> 00:12:14.600
dynamic about all this is like obviously not

00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:19.539
no no yeah if toys in the attic is like this

00:12:19.539 --> 00:12:23.529
thing you deconstruct at 12 or 13 yeah then Yeah,

00:12:23.629 --> 00:12:25.450
I mean, I probably heard the Beatles at five,

00:12:25.470 --> 00:12:30.049
and I probably heard the Walk This Way when I

00:12:30.049 --> 00:12:32.110
was younger, but I probably heard Walk This Way

00:12:32.110 --> 00:12:37.029
with Run DMC before I was 10. You know what I

00:12:37.029 --> 00:12:40.230
mean? So, yeah, no, I was definitely exposed

00:12:40.230 --> 00:12:43.730
to all of that. And I think not only that, I

00:12:43.730 --> 00:12:48.070
think by the time I was coming up, so much of

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it was on TV. Yeah. So much of it. And this is

00:12:53.059 --> 00:12:55.500
like the double side of this coin, right? There's

00:12:55.500 --> 00:12:58.720
one, you get to see this like presentation and

00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:01.360
it video killed the radio star kind of shit,

00:13:01.379 --> 00:13:03.639
right? But the other side of it is you actually

00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:06.480
start to see how the sausage is made a little

00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:11.419
bit more. Right. And so I'm just not sure that

00:13:11.419 --> 00:13:14.500
I ever, and then not only that, by the time I'm

00:13:14.500 --> 00:13:17.899
13, I'm hanging out at your fucking studio. Right.

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Were you that young? Yeah, I was. Yeah, yeah.

00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:25.059
I'm just not sure that I ever had that illusion.

00:13:25.379 --> 00:13:29.700
Yeah. So it's just interesting. I had no, I mean,

00:13:29.799 --> 00:13:33.740
for whatever reason, like no real exposure to

00:13:33.740 --> 00:13:38.120
music at all when I was a kid. Not that you didn't

00:13:38.120 --> 00:13:41.659
hear random. You ran to places and you hear something.

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You never took piano lessons as a kid or anything

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either? No, no. And no MTV. I mean, they had

00:13:48.220 --> 00:13:52.559
MTV. I'm not that old. You're not much older

00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:55.799
than me. It doesn't matter much now. It mattered

00:13:55.799 --> 00:14:00.379
a lot then. Yeah, we just didn't watch MTV. We

00:14:00.379 --> 00:14:05.039
didn't listen to the radio in the car. Or not

00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:09.320
that I remember. I remember... being at a swimming

00:14:09.320 --> 00:14:11.379
pool or something and hearing Edge of Seventeen,

00:14:11.620 --> 00:14:14.080
but it didn't affect me in any way. I just thought

00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:16.320
it was weird that they said dove in a song. I

00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:18.960
was like, I remember that. And now I have to

00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:22.480
play that song for the rest of my life. We'll

00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:26.799
talk about that, too. But yeah, so it really

00:14:26.799 --> 00:14:29.519
hit me, and I just really did not get anything

00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:32.340
about it. That's an interesting thing, too, is

00:14:32.340 --> 00:14:36.899
as much as I heard that song, And immediately

00:14:36.899 --> 00:14:39.000
wanted to do that and was like, that's what I

00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:41.360
want to do. That's all that I want to do. And

00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:45.460
I tell people this all the time when I teach.

00:14:46.299 --> 00:14:49.659
I started with no natural ear for music. I had

00:14:49.659 --> 00:14:52.559
no ear for pitch whatsoever. If you played two

00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:54.940
notes, I couldn't tell you whether those notes

00:14:54.940 --> 00:14:58.600
went up or went down. I literally couldn't. And

00:14:58.600 --> 00:15:02.279
I had no natural rhythm. And so I was just...

00:15:02.460 --> 00:15:05.440
Starting fumbling in the dark trying to figure

00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:09.220
this out because I just didn't have any natural

00:15:09.220 --> 00:15:13.259
ear. But you eventually became a drummer too,

00:15:13.419 --> 00:15:17.000
right? Yeah, I played drums. But my point is

00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:19.059
you can teach yourself all of that. It's not,

00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:21.820
oh, I don't have a very good ear. You can teach

00:15:21.820 --> 00:15:24.460
yourself to have a good ear. Now I have a relatively

00:15:24.460 --> 00:15:28.299
good ear. My wife, she can hear a melody and

00:15:28.299 --> 00:15:30.139
just play it for you on the piano, so that's

00:15:30.139 --> 00:15:32.750
humbling. Yeah, I started just fumbling in the

00:15:32.750 --> 00:15:34.590
dark and I had no idea how any of it worked.

00:15:34.950 --> 00:15:38.269
And just, it made me, it's part of why I dove

00:15:38.269 --> 00:15:40.370
into music theory so much early on was like,

00:15:40.450 --> 00:15:44.269
I needed the theory because I couldn't hear the

00:15:44.269 --> 00:15:47.450
notes. So I needed to do it almost paint by numbers.

00:15:48.009 --> 00:15:50.690
Like mathematically. Mathematically, yeah. And

00:15:50.690 --> 00:15:52.450
then later, of course, you develop the stuff.

00:15:52.830 --> 00:15:57.129
Were you good at math in school? No, just musically.

00:15:58.230 --> 00:16:00.909
That was just. how it clicked for you it just

00:16:00.909 --> 00:16:02.929
clicked for me yeah it made sense it was just

00:16:02.929 --> 00:16:06.269
like oh okay and music theory is easy it's not

00:16:06.269 --> 00:16:08.590
even math is making it sound too hard there's

00:16:08.590 --> 00:16:12.090
only so many notes so like really it's not in

00:16:12.090 --> 00:16:14.629
our western in our western yeah absolutely that's

00:16:14.629 --> 00:16:17.389
a whole other thing oh god i had to produce an

00:16:17.389 --> 00:16:21.649
indian track reproduce like an indian hit thing

00:16:22.649 --> 00:16:25.049
And I couldn't, I did it, but I couldn't figure

00:16:25.049 --> 00:16:27.070
it out for the life of me. Like I couldn't, I

00:16:27.070 --> 00:16:29.730
was just literally like playing the track and

00:16:29.730 --> 00:16:32.330
then going, okay, so there was a little drum

00:16:32.330 --> 00:16:34.509
there. Play it. Okay, there's a little drum there.

00:16:34.590 --> 00:16:36.690
I couldn't count it. I couldn't figure it out.

00:16:36.730 --> 00:16:39.470
I was just literally copying what was going on.

00:16:39.490 --> 00:16:42.509
It took forever. But yeah, that was my early

00:16:42.509 --> 00:16:45.799
stuff. And then. gosh yeah we were just following

00:16:45.799 --> 00:16:49.000
around these guys so you met john and you start

00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:53.799
to realize how records are made right in it and

00:16:53.799 --> 00:16:56.799
like that did that fascinate you right away like

00:16:56.799 --> 00:16:59.539
immediate immediately yeah i really like a puzzle

00:16:59.539 --> 00:17:03.220
i really started listening to i remember the

00:17:03.220 --> 00:17:07.259
realization that oh because of that session with

00:17:07.259 --> 00:17:11.000
john there's reverb and there's effects on things

00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:15.720
right it's not just We're not just hearing a

00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:20.440
dry whatever. There's a little. And yeah, I got

00:17:20.440 --> 00:17:22.619
really obsessed with that and later got a four

00:17:22.619 --> 00:17:26.240
track and was just obsessive making little recordings

00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:29.460
on the four track. At what point do you start

00:17:29.460 --> 00:17:33.819
to explore like digital stuff? Oh, way later.

00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:37.539
There was nothing digital. By the time we're

00:17:37.539 --> 00:17:39.819
I mean, you were working with a really early

00:17:39.819 --> 00:17:43.619
version of Pro Tools. Yes. Coming around in the

00:17:43.619 --> 00:17:46.920
early 2000s. Yeah, we got... It depends on how

00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:49.480
you say digital. What we got first was ADATs,

00:17:49.480 --> 00:17:51.559
which are these huge tape machines that used

00:17:51.559 --> 00:17:54.920
VHS tapes. So they were like digital tape machines.

00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:57.599
And I guess now we're getting... But that probably

00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:00.960
cost the tape down. Considerably, right? It did,

00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:05.539
yeah. Like switching to an ADAT from... And we

00:18:05.539 --> 00:18:09.140
got so... I did a bunch of records. I did a bunch

00:18:09.140 --> 00:18:13.140
of punk records on... For some reason, I got

00:18:13.140 --> 00:18:17.039
into, this is when I'm maybe 20, 22. I got into,

00:18:17.339 --> 00:18:20.440
it's probably right before I met you. I got into

00:18:20.440 --> 00:18:22.779
the, I don't know if it was Riot Grrrl, but it

00:18:22.779 --> 00:18:25.000
was these all -girl punk bands that were like

00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:28.039
at FSU. And so I did a bunch of records for them.

00:18:28.140 --> 00:18:31.259
And that was when we only had eight tracks. And

00:18:31.259 --> 00:18:33.460
it was digital tape, but it wasn't like you could

00:18:33.460 --> 00:18:35.339
see it on the screen. It was just a tape machine.

00:18:36.059 --> 00:18:39.829
But it was digital tape. So we just had eight

00:18:39.829 --> 00:18:42.190
tracks. So it was like two mics for the drums.

00:18:42.470 --> 00:18:45.470
It was very minimal and they were live recordings,

00:18:45.630 --> 00:18:50.769
but that was my Steve Albini phase of just band

00:18:50.769 --> 00:18:54.230
in a room. But you do takes and takes and takes

00:18:54.230 --> 00:18:57.960
until you got a good one. So when you first got

00:18:57.960 --> 00:18:59.819
your first four -track, are you just recording

00:18:59.819 --> 00:19:02.940
your friends' bands in high school and stuff

00:19:02.940 --> 00:19:06.440
like that? No, exclusively either just messing

00:19:06.440 --> 00:19:09.720
around by myself or my band, my high school band,

00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:12.740
which at the time was Sudden Heaven. And that's

00:19:12.740 --> 00:19:15.099
interesting, talking about live stuff. We took

00:19:15.099 --> 00:19:18.279
it into our own hands, really. It was the start

00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:21.519
of a lot of things for me because we were 15,

00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:24.000
16 years old. We couldn't get gigs anywhere.

00:19:24.829 --> 00:19:28.430
So what we started doing was going to places

00:19:28.430 --> 00:19:31.329
and going, Hey, we'll rent this place out, throw

00:19:31.329 --> 00:19:34.710
a sheet over the booze. We'll rent it for a flat

00:19:34.710 --> 00:19:37.230
fee. We'll give you 500 bucks and then we'll

00:19:37.230 --> 00:19:40.930
sell tickets. And it blew up for us because we

00:19:40.930 --> 00:19:43.890
were the only game in town. If you weren't 18

00:19:43.890 --> 00:19:46.990
or 21, these were the only shows you could go

00:19:46.990 --> 00:19:51.970
to. So it really was like, it was, I'm not saying

00:19:51.970 --> 00:19:55.079
people didn't like us, but. We were also the

00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:57.220
only game in town. So very quickly, we were selling

00:19:57.220 --> 00:20:00.839
200 tickets and then 300. And then we were selling

00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:03.019
400 or 500 tickets. And we just kept having to

00:20:03.019 --> 00:20:07.079
move higher and higher up. And we were sneaky

00:20:07.079 --> 00:20:09.380
because people would figure out. They would be

00:20:09.380 --> 00:20:10.980
like, we'd be like, we'll rent your place for

00:20:10.980 --> 00:20:14.220
500 bucks. We really don't need any staff. We'll

00:20:14.220 --> 00:20:17.559
bring in off -duty police officers, throw bottles,

00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:21.460
throw a sheet over the booze, whatever. What

00:20:21.460 --> 00:20:24.200
kind of rooms were you renting? Dude, we did

00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:27.900
VFWs. We did the women's club that had a ballroom

00:20:27.900 --> 00:20:31.380
that was over by Lake Ella. Where else? We did

00:20:31.380 --> 00:20:34.579
Fire and Ice, which was also the library at one

00:20:34.579 --> 00:20:37.599
point. Any place that would rent to us. We did

00:20:37.599 --> 00:20:40.119
the early cowhouse one time. A couple times.

00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:42.500
They were actually very cool about it. But a

00:20:42.500 --> 00:20:44.859
lot of times places would, oh, there was an art

00:20:44.859 --> 00:20:48.000
gallery in Railroad Square. Just any place that

00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:51.839
had a room. 621 does some like comedy shows still.

00:20:52.180 --> 00:20:57.059
Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. But we would have to move

00:20:57.059 --> 00:20:58.940
around because they would think they were ripping

00:20:58.940 --> 00:21:02.059
us off, taking 500 bucks for a rental. And then

00:21:02.059 --> 00:21:05.460
we'd load in three, 400 kids and they'd be like,

00:21:05.539 --> 00:21:07.160
ah, we got to renegotiate. And we're like, ah,

00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:11.339
we're going to go down the road. Like we'll find

00:21:11.339 --> 00:21:14.559
somebody else. Cause, but like I said, it was,

00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:17.400
it was a great look into the music business in

00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:20.250
a way of being like, entrepreneurs like we'll

00:21:20.250 --> 00:21:22.650
just if people aren't opening doors for us we'll

00:21:22.650 --> 00:21:25.690
just open the door we'll just figure it out and

00:21:25.690 --> 00:21:28.029
that's ironic in that i was on a major label

00:21:28.029 --> 00:21:30.730
later but like early on we were just like we're

00:21:30.730 --> 00:21:33.069
just going to do this ourselves yeah you know

00:21:33.069 --> 00:21:36.769
what i mean if we can't get anywhere i think

00:21:36.769 --> 00:21:39.869
we started in like pizza joints or whatever like

00:21:39.869 --> 00:21:41.829
just being like and then it would pack up with

00:21:41.829 --> 00:21:45.390
kids and then we had a long -standing weekly

00:21:45.390 --> 00:21:49.460
show at hole in the wall which is now Leon Pub.

00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:53.559
And we would play Sundays like early, like five

00:21:53.559 --> 00:21:56.079
to eight or something with two or three other

00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:58.059
bands. And that would pack out. And then we were

00:21:58.059 --> 00:22:01.799
like, oh, let's just rent places. And everything

00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:03.680
was fine until somebody got hit in the head with

00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:05.440
a guitar somebody threw in the audience. And

00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:06.839
then we were like, oh, we probably need security.

00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:08.900
So we started getting off -duty police officers.

00:22:09.740 --> 00:22:14.619
And yeah, that went along great for years. That

00:22:14.619 --> 00:22:17.279
was really my early live stuff. It wasn't bar

00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:21.880
gigs. It was shows. Yeah. Like shows. I can think

00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:25.019
of so many reasons why that wouldn't work now,

00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:29.599
though. Oh, yeah. Like insurance. People didn't

00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:31.099
think about that stuff back then. Like attendance.

00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:34.279
Even just getting people to go anywhere now is

00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:38.160
so much harder, I think, too. You were around

00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:41.640
in that era. I saw it change. Yeah, you saw it

00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:45.589
change. Before my eye. Yeah. and i probably didn't

00:22:45.589 --> 00:22:47.069
because i was probably on the road around that

00:22:47.069 --> 00:22:50.690
time but for a while it was not a question of

00:22:50.690 --> 00:22:53.470
are we going to go out and see shows this weekend

00:22:53.470 --> 00:22:55.410
it's which shows are we going to go out and see

00:22:55.410 --> 00:22:58.309
it's a given here it's a given that we're going

00:22:58.309 --> 00:23:00.589
out yeah i'm talking about here are we going

00:23:00.589 --> 00:23:03.130
we had club down under we had the cowhouse we

00:23:03.130 --> 00:23:06.089
had the moon the moon was booking regular shows

00:23:06.089 --> 00:23:08.369
everybody yeah yeah everybody was like when the

00:23:08.369 --> 00:23:10.940
civic center was getting starting to get some

00:23:10.940 --> 00:23:13.519
more shows and everybody was like we're definitely

00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:17.460
going out friday and saturday so floyd floyd

00:23:17.460 --> 00:23:21.059
was the staple yeah i mean local music especially

00:23:21.059 --> 00:23:25.839
so it was like in a way it was when it got into

00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:29.299
the social burn days and the no address days

00:23:29.299 --> 00:23:33.180
it was a given like bottom of the barrel you

00:23:33.180 --> 00:23:36.039
could draw 100 people 150 people and you were

00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:39.410
like yeah i mean draw But also, half these people

00:23:39.410 --> 00:23:41.349
are going to be at Floyd's either way. Right.

00:23:41.509 --> 00:23:43.369
They're just there to see whoever's playing.

00:23:43.490 --> 00:23:46.769
Whoever's playing. But it was, and I feel for

00:23:46.769 --> 00:23:50.410
bands now, and I'm still in bands and in a couple

00:23:50.410 --> 00:23:53.210
of original bands, it is so hard to draw. And

00:23:53.210 --> 00:23:55.049
you see these people work and work, and they

00:23:55.049 --> 00:23:58.369
can maybe draw 35 people. And back then, it was

00:23:58.369 --> 00:24:01.190
just like, it was easy. It wasn't easy, but it

00:24:01.190 --> 00:24:04.180
was like... It made me look real good when I

00:24:04.180 --> 00:24:06.759
would be passing out flyers and then 700 people

00:24:06.759 --> 00:24:09.480
would show up at Floyd's. And you would get crowds

00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:11.480
like that and it wasn't even weird. You weren't

00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:14.119
like, oh my God. It was like, of course, that's

00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:17.119
what we do. Yeah. And it didn't matter if it

00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:19.559
was like a football weekend. Like none of that

00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:22.980
seemed to matter. No, it really, that crowd wasn't

00:24:22.980 --> 00:24:25.339
really following football. It was just, it was,

00:24:25.380 --> 00:24:28.579
I think a lot of people did really cool things.

00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:30.819
And now, of course, we're talking about the Floyds

00:24:30.819 --> 00:24:33.640
days. That's how it goes. Yeah, we're all over

00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:35.700
the place. Yeah, that's fine. But they did a

00:24:35.700 --> 00:24:38.339
better job. And I've told people Denver, it's

00:24:38.339 --> 00:24:40.140
one thing Denver doesn't do, but they did a better

00:24:40.140 --> 00:24:43.960
job of if you were a band in the scene and you

00:24:43.960 --> 00:24:49.480
were playing regularly, it was a given that you

00:24:49.480 --> 00:24:51.400
could get into any show for free. And I'm not

00:24:51.400 --> 00:24:54.940
saying like in this like we were a big deal or

00:24:54.940 --> 00:24:57.380
anything, but it was just like it created a scene.

00:24:58.479 --> 00:25:00.960
because you'd be like, sure, we'll just go see

00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:04.059
our buddies at Floyd's. You'd play a show at

00:25:04.059 --> 00:25:05.680
Floyd's and you'd look out in the audience and

00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:08.339
there'd be 20 or 30 other of the musicians in

00:25:08.339 --> 00:25:11.559
the scene because you'd get in and they wouldn't

00:25:11.559 --> 00:25:13.180
charge you to get in and maybe you'd get one

00:25:13.180 --> 00:25:17.380
drink. And it was like not, there was no barrier

00:25:17.380 --> 00:25:21.099
to, you could just go and it wasn't a big deal.

00:25:21.690 --> 00:25:24.329
And it was almost even became expected for you

00:25:24.329 --> 00:25:27.009
to go support your friends and stuff. Yeah. So

00:25:27.009 --> 00:25:30.990
it made a scene. And now I think it's just, it's

00:25:30.990 --> 00:25:33.430
not even in the budget. For the same reasons

00:25:33.430 --> 00:25:35.190
we were talking about. And it may not be. Yeah,

00:25:35.210 --> 00:25:36.869
it may not be. With like insurance. Yeah, that

00:25:36.869 --> 00:25:39.250
may be totally fair. All of that stuff. I feel

00:25:39.250 --> 00:25:43.309
like it's just, the audience isn't there to support

00:25:43.309 --> 00:25:47.150
it either. Right. If you have 700 people, then

00:25:47.150 --> 00:25:49.950
you can let 50 people in for free. Yeah, because

00:25:49.950 --> 00:25:53.440
it doesn't. Yeah, just whatever. But Tallahassee

00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:58.359
got really such a scene going. And so fans would

00:25:58.359 --> 00:26:01.960
come out because it was a scene. And if you really

00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:05.279
liked a band, you would go out because you would

00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:07.759
probably run into somebody from that band. So

00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:10.759
then Creed happens here. Creed happens. What

00:26:10.759 --> 00:26:13.500
kind of happened after that? Did it leave like

00:26:13.500 --> 00:26:18.039
a vacuum? In my... This is not something I really

00:26:18.039 --> 00:26:20.180
experienced. I came in like right after that.

00:26:20.299 --> 00:26:22.279
And the Creed guys are like five years older

00:26:22.279 --> 00:26:25.420
than me. So we didn't really have much to do

00:26:25.420 --> 00:26:31.920
with them. No, but... And to be fair, the bands

00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:34.480
I was in when Creed was blowing up, like I was

00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:37.640
aware of it, but I was much more in the cowhouse

00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:41.319
kind of scene and in the more indie... And they

00:26:41.319 --> 00:26:43.400
were Floyds. Weirdos. And they were Floyds. So

00:26:43.400 --> 00:26:45.019
that kind of was... Like their manager owned

00:26:45.019 --> 00:26:50.029
Floyds. Yeah, and really great guy. Gave me some

00:26:50.029 --> 00:26:52.890
great advice a couple times. Not that I knew

00:26:52.890 --> 00:26:55.549
him well, but talked once or twice. Yeah, yeah.

00:26:55.930 --> 00:27:01.009
Very savvy business guy. Anyway, we knew it was

00:27:01.009 --> 00:27:03.089
happening, but it just wasn't our scene at the

00:27:03.089 --> 00:27:07.289
time. And yeah, but I think when they blew up,

00:27:07.289 --> 00:27:11.339
it really did. A, it did leave a huge vacuum.

00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:15.259
But then B, I think it lit a weird fire that

00:27:15.259 --> 00:27:19.680
like, oh, we can do this. Like people from our

00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:22.460
little town. And I never saw Creed live or anything.

00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:25.819
And I would run into the guys around. And you'd

00:27:25.819 --> 00:27:29.539
be at a bar playing pool or something. And they'd

00:27:29.539 --> 00:27:31.920
be around and stuff. But they were a little older.

00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:35.059
So it's not like we hung out, hung out. But anyway.

00:27:35.700 --> 00:27:38.099
I'm not sure there are guys I would have hung

00:27:38.099 --> 00:27:42.710
out with. I'm just not sure. I will tell you,

00:27:42.829 --> 00:27:46.690
Mark Tremonti in particular is one of the nicest,

00:27:46.809 --> 00:27:50.029
coolest dudes. We later played with them live

00:27:50.029 --> 00:27:52.230
a few times when they were in Alter Bridge. Oh,

00:27:52.250 --> 00:27:56.609
yeah, Alter Bridge. And it's a funny story. The

00:27:56.609 --> 00:27:59.089
first time we played with Alter Bridge, we soundcheck,

00:27:59.150 --> 00:28:02.210
and then everybody's two opening bands, we're

00:28:02.210 --> 00:28:06.009
all standing around in a knot. And Mark walks

00:28:06.009 --> 00:28:08.309
over, and he's like... Hey, guys, just wanted

00:28:08.309 --> 00:28:09.670
to introduce myself. I'm Mark, and we're all

00:28:09.670 --> 00:28:13.950
like, yeah, we know. He introduced himself like

00:28:13.950 --> 00:28:15.789
we're not all aware that you're Mark Tremont.

00:28:16.950 --> 00:28:19.029
You've been famous for quite a few years now.

00:28:20.529 --> 00:28:24.410
But I've thought about this exact kind of thing

00:28:24.410 --> 00:28:28.559
before. Is it weird? Is it weirder if he doesn't

00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:30.980
introduce himself? It's weirder. But at the same

00:28:30.980 --> 00:28:33.599
time, it's just funnier. He's that down to earth.

00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:37.319
You know what I mean? Like huge rock star, multimillionaire,

00:28:37.319 --> 00:28:39.859
several projects he's gone platinum with. And

00:28:39.859 --> 00:28:42.960
he's just, hey, I'm Mark. Not Mark Tremonti.

00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:45.460
He's like, hey, I'm Mark. And I'm like, everybody

00:28:45.460 --> 00:28:49.960
knows. We're completely aware why we're here.

00:28:50.539 --> 00:28:54.759
We also saw the big marquee out front. Yeah.

00:28:55.200 --> 00:29:02.309
Anyway. The reason I asked is I felt like, and

00:29:02.309 --> 00:29:04.750
we'll get into exactly what happened in the early

00:29:04.750 --> 00:29:07.269
2000s and the Tahasi scene here in a few minutes,

00:29:07.410 --> 00:29:11.390
but I felt like there was definitely some weird

00:29:11.390 --> 00:29:15.410
impacts when five bands got signed. Right. And

00:29:15.410 --> 00:29:19.849
left. And I'm wondering how that compared. Because

00:29:19.849 --> 00:29:22.069
you were in one of them, so I don't know that

00:29:22.069 --> 00:29:25.500
you really... were aware of what was going on

00:29:25.500 --> 00:29:30.039
here after that. I think Creed blowing up was

00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:33.960
awesome, certainly awesome for those guys, and

00:29:33.960 --> 00:29:37.380
certainly well -deserved for John Kerswig. But

00:29:37.380 --> 00:29:41.579
I think it really, the two reasons are, it made

00:29:41.579 --> 00:29:45.460
it look possible for the rest of us. It was not

00:29:45.460 --> 00:29:49.359
something we, it was the dream. but it was not

00:29:49.359 --> 00:29:52.019
something we really thought could happen in that

00:29:52.019 --> 00:29:54.400
way, in that mainstream way. We thought maybe

00:29:54.400 --> 00:29:57.339
you'll get in a van and you'll tour the cow houses

00:29:57.339 --> 00:30:00.660
of the country for long enough, and then maybe

00:30:00.660 --> 00:30:03.680
you'll get something. And there were bands doing

00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:05.220
that. And there were bands doing it. From nowhere.

00:30:05.740 --> 00:30:08.220
Yeah, yeah. The Drive -By Truckers are a good

00:30:08.220 --> 00:30:09.180
example of bands that were doing it. They're

00:30:09.180 --> 00:30:13.359
a great example, and I respect that. But the

00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:17.720
blow -up and the radio. play and all of that

00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:20.740
stuff was not that was like oh we could do that

00:30:20.740 --> 00:30:24.900
and not in that way and we would have never thought

00:30:24.900 --> 00:30:27.859
we we weren't the same type of dudes and we didn't

00:30:27.859 --> 00:30:29.980
make the same type of music really other than

00:30:29.980 --> 00:30:32.660
it was rock but at the same time it was just

00:30:32.660 --> 00:30:35.319
like oh that's doable you know what i mean and

00:30:35.319 --> 00:30:39.539
john made that record in his house right so oh

00:30:39.539 --> 00:30:42.089
you could make a record in your house that could

00:30:42.089 --> 00:30:44.109
have that kind of success and that kind of radio

00:30:44.109 --> 00:30:47.490
play. And it had never seemed real before. Were

00:30:47.490 --> 00:30:50.369
you making other people's records before then?

00:30:51.009 --> 00:30:53.250
That was probably right before I started making

00:30:53.250 --> 00:30:55.029
other people's records. Do you think there was

00:30:55.029 --> 00:30:57.589
a connection there? I think there was a connection

00:30:57.589 --> 00:31:01.029
there. Because it sounds like to me, it not only

00:31:01.029 --> 00:31:06.109
made it seem possible for bands, but for a producer.

00:31:06.109 --> 00:31:09.170
For producers. Yeah. And I'd been to John's house

00:31:09.170 --> 00:31:13.869
a million times. record that sold millions and

00:31:13.869 --> 00:31:16.329
millions of cars six million or whatever it sold

00:31:16.329 --> 00:31:20.410
and i like and it was made in a place that like

00:31:20.410 --> 00:31:22.569
i could probably go over there and knock on the

00:31:22.569 --> 00:31:24.069
door and just say hey what's up you know what

00:31:24.069 --> 00:31:27.430
it's like not there's not this huge barrier to

00:31:27.430 --> 00:31:30.650
entry there's not this huge studio in la and

00:31:30.650 --> 00:31:32.970
there's not this whatever it made it seem possible

00:31:32.970 --> 00:31:35.690
that like you're gonna have to work very hard

00:31:35.690 --> 00:31:37.690
because you're so far away from understanding

00:31:37.690 --> 00:31:41.099
how to do that but it's doable. I think, I think

00:31:41.099 --> 00:31:43.140
that was the impact of John and Creed was like,

00:31:43.240 --> 00:31:47.980
Oh, we could really do this. So I'll tell you

00:31:47.980 --> 00:31:54.279
what I think happened after five bands left Tallahassee.

00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:56.460
Okay. I'm really interested. It was a different

00:31:56.460 --> 00:31:58.960
time too. Cause I think what we already touched

00:31:58.960 --> 00:32:00.640
on, what was already happening simultaneously,

00:32:01.099 --> 00:32:03.259
right? Like the internet, like people stopped

00:32:03.259 --> 00:32:05.339
buying records. They stopped buying CDs. The

00:32:05.339 --> 00:32:08.390
internet is. taking over everything, whether

00:32:08.390 --> 00:32:12.690
it's distribution or even marketing, just like

00:32:12.690 --> 00:32:16.670
how people find out about things. But I think

00:32:16.670 --> 00:32:19.430
it actually killed the scene in Tallahassee.

00:32:19.450 --> 00:32:22.390
Really? A long time. And now I think there's

00:32:22.390 --> 00:32:25.289
other things going on, and what I saw was not,

00:32:25.390 --> 00:32:29.309
oh, my God, it's possible. Right. On a long enough

00:32:29.309 --> 00:32:33.309
timeline, I saw five bands get chewed up and

00:32:33.309 --> 00:32:36.680
eaten alive by the machine. We sure did. I mean,

00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:40.880
that's the other side of, that's what I saw.

00:32:40.920 --> 00:32:44.220
And I saw it happen to bands whose records came

00:32:44.220 --> 00:32:47.539
out and were successful, semi -successful, or

00:32:47.539 --> 00:32:49.579
bands whose records never even came out. Never

00:32:49.579 --> 00:32:52.539
even came out, yeah. And were produced by a crazy,

00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:54.839
like that Standstill record, I don't think ever

00:32:54.839 --> 00:32:58.059
came out, did it? No. And it was produced by

00:32:58.059 --> 00:33:00.079
one of Paul McCartney's producers. Yeah, yeah,

00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:03.880
I'm blanking on the guy's name, yeah, yeah. So

00:33:03.880 --> 00:33:07.279
I just think it's and I'm wondering how much

00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:09.779
of that and we're not going to have the answers

00:33:09.779 --> 00:33:11.740
to this, but I'm wondering how much of that is

00:33:11.740 --> 00:33:15.160
like the environment in which it happened. I

00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:18.259
think I the way I've seen I've been thinking

00:33:18.259 --> 00:33:20.259
about this a lot just the last few days. The

00:33:20.259 --> 00:33:24.220
way I see it is the first time it was the same

00:33:24.220 --> 00:33:26.779
thing for the record labels. Oh, they didn't.

00:33:27.549 --> 00:33:30.369
Like, oh, my God, we can find a band in small

00:33:30.369 --> 00:33:32.269
town, whatever, and make millions of dollars

00:33:32.269 --> 00:33:34.450
off of it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they've

00:33:34.450 --> 00:33:37.509
been doing that a lot, but it was like a new

00:33:37.509 --> 00:33:40.769
way to do it, right? Yeah. A new city for them

00:33:40.769 --> 00:33:45.210
to pilfer, if you will. And that's how I view

00:33:45.210 --> 00:33:48.089
it now. Like, looking at it back 20 years later,

00:33:48.250 --> 00:33:51.190
25 years later, I see them, like, make a bunch

00:33:51.190 --> 00:33:54.579
of money off of Creed. A bunch of guys here get

00:33:54.579 --> 00:33:57.220
stars in their eyes with good reason. Yeah, sure,

00:33:57.299 --> 00:34:02.579
sure. And the labels descend upon the city and

00:34:02.579 --> 00:34:05.839
capitalize on that and basically just, like,

00:34:05.859 --> 00:34:10.460
strip those bands to the bone, leaving the Tallahassee

00:34:10.460 --> 00:34:13.000
with not much of a scene. And those guys, most

00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:18.079
of them did not go into music after that. A lot

00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:19.820
of them did. Some of them did. Some of them did.

00:34:20.619 --> 00:34:23.590
But it was a meat grinder. And at the end of

00:34:23.590 --> 00:34:27.530
it, we were very broken people, speaking at least

00:34:27.530 --> 00:34:32.989
for the no -address guys. We can talk more about

00:34:32.989 --> 00:34:35.750
specifics off of this, because I'm not trying

00:34:35.750 --> 00:34:38.610
to air anybody's dirty laundry. But you're not

00:34:38.610 --> 00:34:42.809
alone there. No. I mean, I think who deserves

00:34:42.809 --> 00:34:44.909
the credit, if we're talking Tallahassee music

00:34:44.909 --> 00:34:49.630
scene, to me, is Creed. And then there was a

00:34:49.630 --> 00:34:52.010
gap. A couple year gap. It wasn't like people

00:34:52.010 --> 00:34:55.349
came in. No, it was at least five years. Yeah,

00:34:55.369 --> 00:34:58.369
a couple years. And the guy who deserves credit

00:34:58.369 --> 00:35:02.849
is Neil Alday. Alday? Yeah. Yeah, from Social

00:35:02.849 --> 00:35:06.030
Burn. Because they were the first ones to start

00:35:06.030 --> 00:35:09.170
getting some heat and getting some interest from

00:35:09.170 --> 00:35:15.170
labels. And Neil was a bulldog about harassing.

00:35:15.730 --> 00:35:18.110
those label people that were interested in him

00:35:18.110 --> 00:35:21.369
to see other Tallahassee bands. Sure, sure. He

00:35:21.369 --> 00:35:23.809
was the guy, I think, who eventually started

00:35:23.809 --> 00:35:26.550
the Feeding Frenzy and got it on their radar

00:35:26.550 --> 00:35:29.210
that there was this scene happening because I

00:35:29.210 --> 00:35:34.130
remember Neil would just be like, who you got

00:35:34.130 --> 00:35:37.010
to see is whoever. You need to get down here

00:35:37.010 --> 00:35:38.550
and see these guys. You need to get down here

00:35:38.550 --> 00:35:42.530
and see these guys. And I want to be super clear.

00:35:42.610 --> 00:35:45.110
This was like a... favor this was a very good

00:35:45.110 --> 00:35:48.570
thing this was a a favor neil was doing because

00:35:48.570 --> 00:35:51.710
he believed in no i'm i'm giving him yeah the

00:35:51.710 --> 00:35:54.289
biggest praise possible what a guy to do that

00:35:54.289 --> 00:35:56.829
yeah yeah i'm gonna take time out of my time

00:35:56.829 --> 00:35:59.210
to talk to you to tell you about the bands that

00:35:59.210 --> 00:36:01.949
are in my town right and dude i'm not i'm just

00:36:01.949 --> 00:36:03.909
being clear i'm not suggesting that neil was

00:36:03.909 --> 00:36:07.590
no no you aren't either but he was the best and

00:36:07.590 --> 00:36:10.510
i think he's who put it on people's radar and

00:36:10.510 --> 00:36:12.869
there were a few other things And we had that

00:36:12.869 --> 00:36:16.030
one song that kind of blew up locally on radio.

00:36:16.429 --> 00:36:19.050
And that also brought, I think that's what brought

00:36:19.050 --> 00:36:22.429
some other attention. Wait, this band's been

00:36:22.429 --> 00:36:24.849
on the local radio, whatever. And there were

00:36:24.849 --> 00:36:27.550
other things. But I think Neil started the ball

00:36:27.550 --> 00:36:29.610
rolling or at least gave it a lot of momentum

00:36:29.610 --> 00:36:32.070
in the best way possible. And when you talk about

00:36:32.070 --> 00:36:35.150
five bands getting major label deals right back

00:36:35.150 --> 00:36:38.829
to back, it was because they discovered. Terry

00:36:38.829 --> 00:36:42.639
Clark had a lot. Really, at the end of the day,

00:36:42.699 --> 00:36:46.619
Terry Clark deserves it. And those two are pretty

00:36:46.619 --> 00:36:49.159
inseparable anyway. Certainly at the time. I

00:36:49.159 --> 00:36:53.079
don't know. They're still homies. I'm in pretty

00:36:53.079 --> 00:36:56.940
good touch with them. Oh, that's great. I should

00:36:56.940 --> 00:36:59.880
be in better touch with Terry. Or he's mad at

00:36:59.880 --> 00:37:02.960
me. I don't know. I don't think Terry's mad at

00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:06.800
anybody. Okay, okay. Then he's changed. He has

00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:10.429
changed a lot, man. He's mellowed the fuck out.

00:37:10.510 --> 00:37:16.329
Yeah, yeah. Now he's mad about that joke. I'm

00:37:16.329 --> 00:37:18.789
not cutting it. Sorry, Terry. I absolutely love

00:37:18.789 --> 00:37:21.969
the guy. I'm just so bad about. But he was, I

00:37:21.969 --> 00:37:25.949
think he was a key figure. He'll be the first

00:37:25.949 --> 00:37:31.449
to tell you that he got that way. He was protecting

00:37:31.449 --> 00:37:36.360
people as much as he was. Oh. He was. ruthless

00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:40.699
but it was to protect absolutely right and i

00:37:40.699 --> 00:37:44.619
mean somebody that took care of a lot of things

00:37:44.619 --> 00:37:47.820
that nobody even knew needed taking care of taking

00:37:47.820 --> 00:37:51.820
care of at the time yeah but and i'll give him

00:37:51.820 --> 00:37:54.440
credit and i used to have these three hour long

00:37:54.440 --> 00:37:57.559
conversations with terry and we'd goof around

00:37:57.559 --> 00:38:00.679
and laugh a lot but terry really changed the

00:38:00.679 --> 00:38:05.760
trajectory maybe not Of my career, for sure.

00:38:05.800 --> 00:38:09.219
He came in and made some stuff happen. So I give

00:38:09.219 --> 00:38:11.360
him all the credit for anything I did. Terry

00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:13.239
was a big part of it. But he was a big part of

00:38:13.239 --> 00:38:17.079
how good I was able to be, however good that

00:38:17.079 --> 00:38:20.639
is. He was willing to tell me hard truths a number

00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:23.940
of times that other people would not have told

00:38:23.940 --> 00:38:25.780
you. Other people would have been like, that's

00:38:25.780 --> 00:38:28.659
too honest, that's too mean. And he would just

00:38:28.659 --> 00:38:31.159
cut right to it, and I would go, okay, I will

00:38:31.159 --> 00:38:33.900
go work on it. Did he convince you to start playing

00:38:33.900 --> 00:38:39.159
guitar again? No, he did not. He did not, but

00:38:39.159 --> 00:38:42.940
that's how we met, because I met at a session

00:38:42.940 --> 00:38:46.719
with Bobby Salvaggio producing, and it was a

00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:48.559
time when I was playing both drums and guitar

00:38:48.559 --> 00:38:52.059
on a record, on the Stash record. So I played

00:38:52.059 --> 00:38:54.179
both drums and guitar on that record, because

00:38:54.179 --> 00:38:56.039
our guitar player quit, so I was like, I'll just

00:38:56.039 --> 00:38:58.300
play the guitar parts, because I wrote a lot

00:38:58.300 --> 00:39:02.860
of them. And then I met on the day. And Terry

00:39:02.860 --> 00:39:05.980
may not remember this, and I may be misremembering

00:39:05.980 --> 00:39:09.440
this, but it's one of my favorite memories. I

00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:12.539
was doing the drums and then got done doing the

00:39:12.539 --> 00:39:15.159
drums, and Bobby's like, okay, let's switch over

00:39:15.159 --> 00:39:17.500
and have you do the guitar. And Terry, I could

00:39:17.500 --> 00:39:19.280
hear Terry. I hadn't met Terry yet, but I could

00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:21.119
hear them talking and laughing in the control

00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:24.860
room, which was all cool. And then I play the

00:39:24.860 --> 00:39:27.780
guitar part, and then Bobby clicks in, and I

00:39:27.780 --> 00:39:31.519
hear Terry go, who the fuck is this guy? I can

00:39:31.519 --> 00:39:35.880
hear it. Yeah. And I'm so proud of that. If that

00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:38.420
is true, I am so proud of that because I was

00:39:38.420 --> 00:39:41.599
like, oh. And then later when I met Terry and

00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:45.619
stuff. So that was a big... And Stash brought

00:39:45.619 --> 00:39:48.139
some heat, to be fair. We were talking to several

00:39:48.139 --> 00:39:51.260
label people right before it just imploded and

00:39:51.260 --> 00:39:53.300
we couldn't quite get there. But we were talking

00:39:53.300 --> 00:39:55.059
to some label people. And so I think that brought

00:39:55.059 --> 00:39:59.519
some eyes on the scene. But I think you're right.

00:39:59.579 --> 00:40:02.510
Ultimately, I even heard people say that this

00:40:02.510 --> 00:40:06.889
is like a new Seattle. Right. Way smaller. But

00:40:06.889 --> 00:40:09.769
what was so unique about Tala, what was going

00:40:09.769 --> 00:40:12.590
on here? Yeah, because there's five bands that

00:40:12.590 --> 00:40:15.829
are getting, and really more like probably seven

00:40:15.829 --> 00:40:18.190
or eight that are getting like pretty, there's

00:40:18.190 --> 00:40:20.309
five that ended up getting. Yeah, but there were

00:40:20.309 --> 00:40:23.670
a lot. But there wasn't like a unified sound.

00:40:23.969 --> 00:40:26.739
At all. None of these bands sounded alike at

00:40:26.739 --> 00:40:29.099
all. Like Presence was like a rap rock band.

00:40:29.239 --> 00:40:32.300
Yeah. That sounded like Rage Against the Machine.

00:40:33.059 --> 00:40:38.719
Yeah. And then Social Burn was just great songwriting

00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:42.219
rock. Yeah. But like catchy hooks. Catchy hooks.

00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:45.699
Yeah. Y 'all were like almost like a classic

00:40:45.699 --> 00:40:48.800
rock. A little bit of a classic rock. Yeah, kind

00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:53.119
of band. But like with a modern sound. Yeah,

00:40:53.119 --> 00:40:57.489
yeah. But guitar solos were important. Drum,

00:40:57.650 --> 00:41:01.929
like you guys were, I think, I think you guys

00:41:01.929 --> 00:41:04.730
were all, for the most part, a little bit older

00:41:04.730 --> 00:41:06.889
than some of these other guys in the band. So

00:41:06.889 --> 00:41:11.849
it felt to me like y 'all were like the musical

00:41:11.849 --> 00:41:15.289
leaders. We were a little more musician -y. That's

00:41:15.289 --> 00:41:18.610
what I mean. Y 'all were like the band that was

00:41:18.610 --> 00:41:21.170
like full of real musicians. And not to say these

00:41:21.170 --> 00:41:23.010
guys weren't. But I get what you're saying. But

00:41:23.010 --> 00:41:25.789
we were all, A little older. Seasoned. And had

00:41:25.789 --> 00:41:29.449
played in a bunch of other bands. And some of

00:41:29.449 --> 00:41:31.690
y 'all had played together before. Sure. And

00:41:31.690 --> 00:41:34.309
you and Phil had been playing for years. Forever.

00:41:34.530 --> 00:41:40.150
With breaks. And Ben was a poet. Yeah. And that,

00:41:40.230 --> 00:41:44.789
I think, all of those things put together, I

00:41:44.789 --> 00:41:48.389
think, elevated y 'all in the eyes of the scene

00:41:48.389 --> 00:41:52.050
to the other bands. And this is just my perspective

00:41:52.050 --> 00:41:54.090
as a kid back then. Which I don't have much of,

00:41:54.170 --> 00:41:56.530
so go. It was like they all kind of looked up

00:41:56.530 --> 00:41:58.889
to y 'all. Okay, I didn't know. Not like in a

00:41:58.889 --> 00:42:01.230
commercially successful way. Right, yeah, yeah.

00:42:02.309 --> 00:42:04.630
These guys know what the fuck they're doing.

00:42:04.889 --> 00:42:07.389
Huh, that's interesting. In a lot of different

00:42:07.389 --> 00:42:09.869
ways. Yeah, I didn't know that. I really didn't.

00:42:10.429 --> 00:42:12.889
Yeah, I really didn't know that. Dan still is

00:42:12.889 --> 00:42:16.889
like very melodic. Anyway, there was no unified

00:42:16.889 --> 00:42:19.389
sound. No, and that was what was so interesting.

00:42:19.739 --> 00:42:23.440
It wasn't a Tallahassee sound. It was all these

00:42:23.440 --> 00:42:25.719
different things. It was just more about that

00:42:25.719 --> 00:42:29.920
there was a scene and that I remember being sometimes

00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:32.800
with, I don't want to name too many names just

00:42:32.800 --> 00:42:34.780
because my memory is as bad as it is, but I remember

00:42:34.780 --> 00:42:37.579
being at Floyd's for something and being with

00:42:37.579 --> 00:42:39.579
a couple of label guys and then looking around

00:42:39.579 --> 00:42:41.340
at the crowd and going, whoa, people are showing

00:42:41.340 --> 00:42:43.719
up for this. And I'm like, yeah, people show

00:42:43.719 --> 00:42:45.699
up for this. And they were like very impressed

00:42:45.699 --> 00:42:48.920
by that because a lot of times record label guys

00:42:48.920 --> 00:42:51.679
are, enthralled with the idea of shooting fish

00:42:51.679 --> 00:42:53.480
in a barrel and they're like oh people actually

00:42:53.480 --> 00:42:55.699
like this they're showing up for this and that

00:42:55.699 --> 00:42:59.739
was very impressive to them not the bands it

00:42:59.739 --> 00:43:02.139
was interesting because we used to trade shows

00:43:02.139 --> 00:43:06.420
with bands in like orlando and all over and and

00:43:06.420 --> 00:43:09.199
you really wouldn't get the crowds like you were

00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:11.599
getting at floyd's people other places were doing

00:43:11.599 --> 00:43:14.920
okay but you'd trade shows with them and you'd

00:43:14.920 --> 00:43:18.840
be like oh okay 150 people whatever There was

00:43:18.840 --> 00:43:21.420
something going on here. Yeah. You know? No,

00:43:21.500 --> 00:43:24.619
there really was. Because I remember we would

00:43:24.619 --> 00:43:26.380
trade, y 'all would trade shows with bands in

00:43:26.380 --> 00:43:28.500
Gainesville a lot. Yeah, Gainesville. And Orlando.

00:43:28.739 --> 00:43:31.380
And I would go, I would ride with y 'all to those

00:43:31.380 --> 00:43:34.400
shows. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they would

00:43:34.400 --> 00:43:37.219
always be kind of disappointing. Yeah. In the

00:43:37.219 --> 00:43:39.500
sense that, yeah, there'd be like 150 people.

00:43:40.480 --> 00:43:45.079
But it would be like, this band, if this is the

00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:47.480
biggest band in this scene or whatever. Right,

00:43:47.480 --> 00:43:49.900
right. Wow, like, we really did have something

00:43:49.900 --> 00:43:53.159
pretty unique going on. I remember a show at

00:43:53.159 --> 00:43:55.380
the Blowhole, which was, like, the back room

00:43:55.380 --> 00:43:58.340
of the Purple Porpoise in Gainesville. And the

00:43:58.340 --> 00:44:00.179
sound guy there was, like, one of the coolest

00:44:00.179 --> 00:44:02.239
motherfuckers we'd ever met. Oh, yeah, dude.

00:44:02.500 --> 00:44:04.340
Yeah, what was that guy's name? Doesn't matter,

00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:07.920
go on. But there was maybe 30 people there that

00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:10.820
night. Yeah. It was weird. That was usual. And

00:44:10.820 --> 00:44:12.039
then I think we found out there was, like, a

00:44:12.039 --> 00:44:14.159
big show across the street or down the road.

00:44:14.820 --> 00:44:17.960
But still, like, it just... Nobody acted like

00:44:17.960 --> 00:44:23.000
it was weird but us. Nobody came out. Presence

00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:25.039
worked Gainesville to the point that they would

00:44:25.039 --> 00:44:27.739
blow it up, but they were blowing it up for Presence.

00:44:27.739 --> 00:44:30.480
It wasn't like the show trading thing where you're

00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:33.880
opening for the big band and it was just on their

00:44:33.880 --> 00:44:36.860
own. Presence really, they were a band for a

00:44:36.860 --> 00:44:39.559
long time before they got there. I think they

00:44:39.559 --> 00:44:41.820
were maybe the band that had been around the

00:44:41.820 --> 00:44:45.210
longest. out of that group. Oh, definitely. Definitely.

00:44:45.369 --> 00:44:48.349
I think I had two or three records. I played

00:44:48.349 --> 00:44:50.570
with them in a totally different band, although

00:44:50.570 --> 00:44:54.889
Phil was in it. And we split a bill with them

00:44:54.889 --> 00:44:59.050
at whatever that weird venue on FSU campus was.

00:44:59.090 --> 00:45:01.349
Not Potbelly's, but the candy store or something.

00:45:01.570 --> 00:45:03.250
Sweet Shop. Sweet Shop. I remember that show.

00:45:03.409 --> 00:45:04.809
Yeah, and it was Us and Presents. I hit my head

00:45:04.809 --> 00:45:09.730
on one of the TVs. And Fetch. Oh, and Fetch.

00:45:09.829 --> 00:45:13.070
Weird. Okay. Yeah, no, I remember that show.

00:45:13.210 --> 00:45:18.130
Yeah, I yeah, that was a yeah. So that was had

00:45:18.130 --> 00:45:21.110
to have been 96, 97. So Presence had been at

00:45:21.110 --> 00:45:25.710
it for at least five years before things started

00:45:25.710 --> 00:45:30.750
going great for them. But yeah, there was just

00:45:30.750 --> 00:45:33.949
a thing going on where all these completely different

00:45:33.949 --> 00:45:39.260
bands could just be in the same scene. So let's

00:45:39.260 --> 00:45:41.800
back up for a second. You started naming some

00:45:41.800 --> 00:45:43.539
of the earlier bands that you recorded. Let's

00:45:43.539 --> 00:45:45.679
just go through the list. How many of these bands

00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:49.300
did you either produce or engineer? I won't remember

00:45:49.300 --> 00:45:53.559
a lot of them, and I'll apologize because I was

00:45:53.559 --> 00:45:56.400
doing a lot. I remember you were doing five or

00:45:56.400 --> 00:45:58.920
six records at the same time. Sometimes, yeah.

00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:04.300
And I worked at such a pace back then. I was

00:46:04.300 --> 00:46:08.039
often working 12, 16 hours a day. all the time

00:46:08.039 --> 00:46:11.480
in the studio i don't think you slept not much

00:46:11.480 --> 00:46:13.659
not much i actually had a period there where

00:46:13.659 --> 00:46:17.079
i didn't sleep i only napped i would just go

00:46:17.079 --> 00:46:21.239
until i needed to nap and i would just go lay

00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:24.900
down for an hour and then you'd pop out to floyd's

00:46:24.900 --> 00:46:27.179
for an hour or two and see whatever was going

00:46:27.179 --> 00:46:29.300
on there and then head back to the studio yeah

00:46:29.300 --> 00:46:35.690
yeah and anyway what So very early stuff I did,

00:46:35.789 --> 00:46:37.730
there was a band that I remember because the

00:46:37.730 --> 00:46:39.530
songwriting was so good. If you can find it,

00:46:39.610 --> 00:46:42.190
I will not stand behind the recording because

00:46:42.190 --> 00:46:44.849
I didn't know what I was doing yet. But the songs

00:46:44.849 --> 00:46:46.389
are amazing. There's a band called Miss July.

00:46:46.769 --> 00:46:50.070
Oh, yeah. I remember that band. Yeah. Just amazing

00:46:50.070 --> 00:46:53.409
songs. Campbell Austin. I think I have those

00:46:53.409 --> 00:46:56.590
records. Oh, dude. I don't want to hear it. No,

00:46:56.710 --> 00:46:58.449
but it would be cool to probably look at them.

00:46:58.469 --> 00:47:02.150
I don't want to hear it because... The recording's

00:47:02.150 --> 00:47:04.889
probably not good. Yeah, the Tatas. There were

00:47:04.889 --> 00:47:08.210
a handful of these bands that I started early

00:47:08.210 --> 00:47:12.090
on. And then when I started doing... You loved

00:47:12.090 --> 00:47:15.409
the Tatas back in the day. I really did. I remember

00:47:15.409 --> 00:47:18.289
you telling me how great they were. I thought

00:47:18.289 --> 00:47:22.750
they were amazing. Another recording, I viscerally

00:47:22.750 --> 00:47:25.690
remember what I did wrong on. That's how we get

00:47:25.690 --> 00:47:27.010
better, though. That's how you get better. And

00:47:27.010 --> 00:47:30.300
that's why I was trying to do it so often. Because

00:47:30.300 --> 00:47:34.780
either John or Terry said to me, like, you got

00:47:34.780 --> 00:47:37.639
to make 30 records before they start sounding

00:47:37.639 --> 00:47:40.760
good. Somebody told me that. And I had that number

00:47:40.760 --> 00:47:43.619
in my head that I just need to keep grinding

00:47:43.619 --> 00:47:46.699
these things out. But to get into the earlier,

00:47:46.840 --> 00:47:50.699
the later stuff, the first big break I got, and

00:47:50.699 --> 00:47:52.619
I don't remember what the circumstances was,

00:47:52.739 --> 00:47:56.440
but DJ from Presence knew that I was producing.

00:47:56.960 --> 00:47:59.559
And I hadn't done a project that big or that

00:47:59.559 --> 00:48:02.619
was supposed to be that mainstream yet. But he

00:48:02.619 --> 00:48:05.420
asked me to produce When the Smoke Clears. Yeah.

00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:08.559
And I had to borrow a bunch of gear to do it,

00:48:08.579 --> 00:48:12.440
to record the drums and stuff. And thanks to

00:48:12.440 --> 00:48:14.960
Rob Gilmore and Terry Clark. And I think Terry

00:48:14.960 --> 00:48:17.840
Clark drum teched that, which was a big help.

00:48:18.500 --> 00:48:21.619
And yeah, so I did that When the Smoke Clears.

00:48:22.300 --> 00:48:24.559
And we did that record really fast because I'll

00:48:24.559 --> 00:48:27.590
give presents. a lot of credit those guys rehearsed

00:48:27.590 --> 00:48:31.130
so doing that record was actually really easy

00:48:31.130 --> 00:48:32.809
because they would just come in and they had

00:48:32.809 --> 00:48:35.090
their parts down and their shows were so tight

00:48:35.090 --> 00:48:39.429
too unbelievable yeah if you saw them live you

00:48:39.429 --> 00:48:41.809
were an instant fan yeah even if you didn't really

00:48:41.809 --> 00:48:44.530
like that kind of music yeah they just were like

00:48:44.530 --> 00:48:47.250
so if they'd gotten the chance to get in front

00:48:47.250 --> 00:48:49.989
of a million people they would have made a million

00:48:49.989 --> 00:48:53.590
fans they were just that magnetic and the interplay

00:48:53.590 --> 00:48:56.010
of the guys they had it all chemistry anyway

00:48:56.010 --> 00:48:59.429
we did that record and i remember i think i got

00:48:59.429 --> 00:49:03.269
800 because at this time i was doing records

00:49:03.269 --> 00:49:06.829
for literally what you tell me what your budget

00:49:06.829 --> 00:49:09.130
is i just want to do the record or sometimes

00:49:09.130 --> 00:49:11.650
it was like literally my bills for this month

00:49:11.650 --> 00:49:14.369
are 1200 or something because i was living pretty

00:49:14.369 --> 00:49:19.269
slim but uh my bills are and i've already made

00:49:20.019 --> 00:49:22.519
so I can do your record for $600. I just got

00:49:22.519 --> 00:49:25.460
to cover my overhead. And so I think I got $800,

00:49:25.659 --> 00:49:29.239
and then we had a back -end deal where I was

00:49:29.239 --> 00:49:30.940
going to get like a dollar a record or something

00:49:30.940 --> 00:49:34.780
that they sold. And then they got signed almost

00:49:34.780 --> 00:49:37.460
immediately after they put that record out. I

00:49:37.460 --> 00:49:40.239
don't remember the circumstances, but... Yeah,

00:49:40.260 --> 00:49:42.460
it was fast. It was really fast. Within a year.

00:49:42.800 --> 00:49:45.840
Yeah, yeah. Maybe even shorter, because I remember

00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:49.650
they sold... They had sold... I don't know. Maybe

00:49:49.650 --> 00:49:52.929
they sold another 800 or so. Because their first

00:49:52.929 --> 00:49:54.789
record, because this was their second record.

00:49:54.869 --> 00:49:56.929
It was the second record, yeah. Their first record,

00:49:57.070 --> 00:50:00.969
I think they sold out of it. They did, yeah.

00:50:01.130 --> 00:50:05.090
They did, and that was the big, man, if they

00:50:05.090 --> 00:50:07.010
sell 2 ,000 of these and I get 2 ,000 bucks,

00:50:07.130 --> 00:50:09.710
that's going to be amazing. That's where I was

00:50:09.710 --> 00:50:12.150
at the time. But they got signed before they

00:50:12.150 --> 00:50:14.650
did that, and I will give the label credit. They

00:50:14.650 --> 00:50:18.050
did pay me out for the unsold. stock oh hell

00:50:18.050 --> 00:50:22.230
yeah yeah cool and uh yeah so did those guys

00:50:22.230 --> 00:50:25.730
and i didn't produce social burn but i was john

00:50:25.730 --> 00:50:28.809
was lucky enough to john was lucky enough i was

00:50:28.809 --> 00:50:32.090
lucky enough that john let me work on uh what

00:50:32.090 --> 00:50:35.550
later became their first record just a little

00:50:35.550 --> 00:50:38.750
bit i did some editing and stuff the major label

00:50:38.750 --> 00:50:42.389
one or what a beautiful waste uh no the yeah

00:50:43.400 --> 00:50:45.360
they had what a beautiful waste and then world

00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:49.039
outside and then it was it was the major label

00:50:49.039 --> 00:50:51.900
yeah you were an engineer on that i was an engineer

00:50:51.900 --> 00:50:56.199
on that and i didn't we start i the stuff i worked

00:50:56.199 --> 00:50:59.159
on they weren't officially working on the record

00:50:59.159 --> 00:51:01.840
yet but it was stuff that later wound up on the

00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:05.119
record right right john did half the record and

00:51:05.119 --> 00:51:07.280
then they did a deal and then they finished the

00:51:07.280 --> 00:51:10.440
record and i worked on the early stuff and god

00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:13.500
i remember going to the store and buying that

00:51:13.500 --> 00:51:16.340
album in the store and like turning, opening

00:51:16.340 --> 00:51:17.980
it up and seeing my name on the thing. And I

00:51:17.980 --> 00:51:22.179
was like, Oh, I made it. Really? Yeah. Yeah.

00:51:22.420 --> 00:51:24.280
I'm in the thank yous. I'm not in the credits.

00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:28.679
It's just like, Oh my God. You can't imagine.

00:51:29.079 --> 00:51:31.519
Now it's so easy to see your name somewhere with

00:51:31.519 --> 00:51:33.360
the internet and stuff. Of course, your name's

00:51:33.360 --> 00:51:35.980
all over the place. Unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah,

00:51:36.000 --> 00:51:39.019
exactly. But that was such a trip to be like,

00:51:39.059 --> 00:51:42.480
Oh my gosh. And then, God, I don't know. I was

00:51:42.480 --> 00:51:44.719
doing No Address stuff the whole time. We did

00:51:44.719 --> 00:51:48.139
a lot of recording. You recorded a whole album

00:51:48.139 --> 00:51:52.980
that you produced that never even got pressed,

00:51:53.059 --> 00:51:55.920
right? Here's the story on that. Songs from a

00:51:55.920 --> 00:51:58.719
warehouse in Orange Avenue. We did that, and

00:51:58.719 --> 00:52:03.039
that got us signed, and we didn't release that.

00:52:03.839 --> 00:52:07.559
Then I did Stand Still and Drake Equation. Oh,

00:52:07.579 --> 00:52:09.980
yeah, Drake Equation. I remember those guys.

00:52:10.079 --> 00:52:13.280
Yeah, yeah. They had some good stuff. Pierce

00:52:13.280 --> 00:52:16.179
ended up, I think, playing with, like, Of Montreal

00:52:16.179 --> 00:52:18.400
and stuff like that. Yeah, that's right. He did.

00:52:18.559 --> 00:52:21.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it was them. I always

00:52:21.500 --> 00:52:24.420
mix up Metric and Of Montreal. It was Of Montreal.

00:52:24.519 --> 00:52:26.199
Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not that those bands

00:52:26.199 --> 00:52:28.099
sound similar. I think they just both have M's

00:52:28.099 --> 00:52:32.900
in their names. But, yeah, I did. I did a ton

00:52:32.900 --> 00:52:34.960
of stuff. You could probably remember almost

00:52:34.960 --> 00:52:38.079
better than, but the thing with no address was,

00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:40.559
yeah, we did that record and didn't put it out.

00:52:41.159 --> 00:52:44.679
And then because we got signed and it was, it

00:52:44.679 --> 00:52:47.639
was a great record, man. Oh, thank you. It really

00:52:47.639 --> 00:52:51.199
was like from top to bottom, like great songs.

00:52:51.260 --> 00:52:53.800
It sounded great. Yeah. And I remember, I mean,

00:52:53.820 --> 00:52:59.179
you were obsessed with making it sound good.

00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:04.719
Honestly, that may have been what made me realize

00:53:04.719 --> 00:53:07.780
I did not want to be a record producer. Oh, really?

00:53:08.039 --> 00:53:12.840
Yeah. In a way, yeah. Yeah. When I saw, especially

00:53:12.840 --> 00:53:15.300
with the tools back then that you had to work

00:53:15.300 --> 00:53:18.920
with, like fixing drums, for instance. Yeah,

00:53:18.920 --> 00:53:23.139
oh, yeah. I think fixing drums was like the bane

00:53:23.139 --> 00:53:25.539
of your existence for six months. Oh, yeah, it

00:53:25.539 --> 00:53:28.019
took hours and days. Yeah, yeah. And I would

00:53:28.019 --> 00:53:31.590
just... That thousand -yard stare that veterans

00:53:31.590 --> 00:53:35.630
get when they get back. Yeah, yeah. You had that

00:53:35.630 --> 00:53:38.710
when you would talk about drums. I bet that I

00:53:38.710 --> 00:53:42.530
did, yeah. Because it was so manual, and if you

00:53:42.530 --> 00:53:45.989
wanted to, when that was what records sounded

00:53:45.989 --> 00:53:47.909
like at the time, if you wanted to add in a little

00:53:47.909 --> 00:53:51.829
sample under the real snare, you had to go in

00:53:51.829 --> 00:53:54.510
and manually paste that. You'd just copy and

00:53:54.510 --> 00:53:56.070
paste, and you'd have to zoom all the way in.

00:53:56.559 --> 00:53:58.800
paste that zoom all the way out go to the next

00:53:58.800 --> 00:54:01.639
hit zoom all the way and it would take who knows

00:54:01.639 --> 00:54:04.860
i would just stay up all night doing that yeah

00:54:04.860 --> 00:54:07.820
and that was really there were a lot of things

00:54:07.820 --> 00:54:10.579
going on but that us putting that record out

00:54:10.579 --> 00:54:13.099
was what finally made somebody jump as far as

00:54:13.099 --> 00:54:15.800
signing us because they were like wait we don't

00:54:15.800 --> 00:54:17.920
want you to put that record out blah blah and

00:54:17.920 --> 00:54:20.179
then we were we're gonna put that record out

00:54:20.179 --> 00:54:22.639
y 'all had i think y 'all had our album we had

00:54:22.639 --> 00:54:26.019
the art We were ready to go, and they were like,

00:54:26.099 --> 00:54:29.900
whoa, we'll sign you. Because we were like, unless

00:54:29.900 --> 00:54:31.699
there's a deal, we're just going to put it out.

00:54:32.440 --> 00:54:36.420
Which is a good music business lesson. You've

00:54:36.420 --> 00:54:40.599
got to have something that puts them in a corner

00:54:40.599 --> 00:54:43.099
before they're going to make a decision. If they

00:54:43.099 --> 00:54:44.659
think they've got all the time in the world,

00:54:44.940 --> 00:54:47.760
they're just not going to make a decision. But

00:54:47.760 --> 00:54:51.539
if we've got to do it now or not, it's like...

00:54:51.719 --> 00:54:55.159
what made them jump. And then one thing that

00:54:55.159 --> 00:54:56.880
we did with No Address, and it's why we did so

00:54:56.880 --> 00:55:00.619
much recording, was you were talking about the

00:55:00.619 --> 00:55:04.920
music business was not doing well. 2004, this

00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:08.820
is before 2004, but we knew, so basically what

00:55:08.820 --> 00:55:11.559
kept us on the label for the like two years before

00:55:11.559 --> 00:55:14.380
we went and actually made a record, made the

00:55:14.380 --> 00:55:17.400
real record, was we were kicking them demos every

00:55:17.400 --> 00:55:20.639
month. new songs every month two three songs

00:55:20.639 --> 00:55:23.619
fully produced demos this could go on the radio

00:55:23.619 --> 00:55:26.880
tomorrow every month we were just kicking them

00:55:26.880 --> 00:55:29.559
a couple new songs and that kept their interest

00:55:29.559 --> 00:55:33.260
level peaked in in when we were seeing other

00:55:33.260 --> 00:55:35.659
bands that we knew or hearing about other bands

00:55:35.659 --> 00:55:39.019
on the atlantic roster getting dropped or whatever

00:55:39.019 --> 00:55:41.860
we were like do we need to keep we need to keep

00:55:41.860 --> 00:55:44.400
them interested if we had just gone away and

00:55:44.400 --> 00:55:47.500
waited quietly we would have gotten dropped.

00:55:47.659 --> 00:55:50.900
So we knew we've just got to keep cranking these

00:55:50.900 --> 00:55:52.940
songs out. Partially, we were also just writing

00:55:52.940 --> 00:55:56.800
songs to make sure we wrote the best one. Our

00:55:56.800 --> 00:55:59.539
joke was we knew John Kerswig was going to produce

00:55:59.539 --> 00:56:01.659
the record, and so our joke was, let's write

00:56:01.659 --> 00:56:03.920
them all and let John sort them out. We were

00:56:03.920 --> 00:56:06.460
just like, we're just going to keep going, and

00:56:06.460 --> 00:56:09.159
we wound up writing and demoing like 90 songs.

00:56:10.199 --> 00:56:13.820
Anyway, the reason we did let it out was because

00:56:13.820 --> 00:56:16.780
I knew we were about to go, We were about to

00:56:16.780 --> 00:56:18.900
go leave to do the record, and it was going to

00:56:18.900 --> 00:56:20.719
be months and months before we got them any new

00:56:20.719 --> 00:56:23.980
material. So I was like, dude, we need to drop

00:56:23.980 --> 00:56:27.800
a whole album on them. That album was made expressly

00:56:27.800 --> 00:56:30.900
for Atlantic Records to keep them interested

00:56:30.900 --> 00:56:34.659
while we were in the studio. That's crazy. We

00:56:34.659 --> 00:56:39.900
wrote and produced that whole album in 19 days.

00:56:40.659 --> 00:56:44.679
And then right before we left, dropped it on

00:56:44.679 --> 00:56:48.059
the desk. Bam, here's a whole other album. And

00:56:48.059 --> 00:56:51.619
that's what kept them interested through the

00:56:51.619 --> 00:56:55.639
troubles of... Because in the background, just

00:56:55.639 --> 00:57:00.139
for everybody, this is when Warner, Elektra,

00:57:00.239 --> 00:57:04.579
and Atlantic merge. Right. And for 24 hours,

00:57:04.699 --> 00:57:07.619
you don't even know if your album's coming out.

00:57:07.739 --> 00:57:11.519
You're like, weeks. I think we were. Nobody knew

00:57:11.519 --> 00:57:16.860
anything at a certain point. Yeah. like the roster

00:57:16.860 --> 00:57:20.119
of all three of those labels shrunk. Oh yeah.

00:57:20.400 --> 00:57:24.260
Tremendously overnight. I'm wondering how did,

00:57:24.280 --> 00:57:28.880
how did y 'all stay so productive through that

00:57:28.880 --> 00:57:32.920
time? Like what was driving? Was it desperation?

00:57:33.179 --> 00:57:36.119
Oh yeah. Yeah. That's a good question, man. It

00:57:36.119 --> 00:57:39.800
was to me like, I guess it was several things.

00:57:39.980 --> 00:57:45.849
I just wanted it so bad. My goal wasn't to be

00:57:45.849 --> 00:57:50.210
a rock star. My goal was to be a rock star so

00:57:50.210 --> 00:57:53.710
that then I could be a big deal producer. I saw

00:57:53.710 --> 00:57:58.369
that as my stepping stone. I make this band successful

00:57:58.369 --> 00:58:01.489
and then I can write my own ticket. So that was

00:58:01.489 --> 00:58:04.510
my goal. I remember a conversation we had back

00:58:04.510 --> 00:58:07.329
in the day where you're like... And I don't know

00:58:07.329 --> 00:58:09.150
that you were talking about any one particular

00:58:09.150 --> 00:58:12.940
record. Yeah. But you're like... you make the

00:58:12.940 --> 00:58:15.820
record that the label wants. Right. And then

00:58:15.820 --> 00:58:18.039
eventually you're going to get to make whatever

00:58:18.039 --> 00:58:20.360
the fuck you want. Yeah. And I think the goal

00:58:20.360 --> 00:58:23.579
is just to be able to get creative control. Yeah.

00:58:23.719 --> 00:58:26.400
Get creative freedom and get in a point where,

00:58:26.480 --> 00:58:28.920
you know, don't get me wrong. I fought with the

00:58:28.920 --> 00:58:31.539
label over the eventual no address record. Oh

00:58:31.539 --> 00:58:36.280
yeah. But yeah. So I was driven by that. And

00:58:36.280 --> 00:58:38.860
then I was driven. Yes. By desperation. And then

00:58:38.860 --> 00:58:42.940
also this was like my, got captain ahab about

00:58:42.940 --> 00:58:45.360
it like it really became like my white whale

00:58:45.360 --> 00:58:49.960
like i really thought ben lauren was good enough

00:58:49.960 --> 00:58:54.420
and had enough to say that i just had to get

00:58:54.420 --> 00:58:57.099
it out there i had to provide a launching pad

00:58:57.099 --> 00:58:59.880
to get that out there and it really was like

00:58:59.880 --> 00:59:03.219
a almost like a mania i was just like i was obsessed

00:59:03.219 --> 00:59:08.500
i lost girlfriends over it i was just gonna do

00:59:08.500 --> 00:59:12.940
anything to get there i don't think you were

00:59:12.940 --> 00:59:15.639
the only person that felt that way yeah about

00:59:15.639 --> 00:59:18.500
ben in particular yeah yeah i don't i i hope

00:59:18.500 --> 00:59:23.320
not yeah i was i felt that way about about about

00:59:23.320 --> 00:59:27.260
all of you but definitely about yes yeah there

00:59:27.260 --> 00:59:32.400
was something and ben and i are we keep in touch

00:59:32.400 --> 00:59:35.519
we're still buddies or whatever and i know y

00:59:35.519 --> 00:59:38.820
'all are tight too but there was something just

00:59:41.400 --> 00:59:47.280
Really special about his presence. Yeah. Especially

00:59:47.280 --> 00:59:52.320
back then. In that environment, on that stage.

00:59:52.340 --> 00:59:54.380
And we had to work on it a lot. Don't get me

00:59:54.380 --> 00:59:58.360
wrong. We had to work on it a lot. We developed

00:59:58.360 --> 01:00:03.159
him a lot. But his lyrics. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

01:00:03.780 --> 01:00:08.960
And my attitude was always like, hey. What I'm

01:00:08.960 --> 01:00:12.380
really excited about is where is this three records

01:00:12.380 --> 01:00:16.099
down the road? Like maybe this is cool and it's

01:00:16.099 --> 01:00:19.039
cool enough for now that we can get to the next

01:00:19.039 --> 01:00:22.920
thing. But if we keep doing this, I really think

01:00:22.920 --> 01:00:25.219
what something crazy special is going to happen.

01:00:25.739 --> 01:00:29.199
And so that was always my view. And we'd write

01:00:29.199 --> 01:00:31.480
stuff and you'd be like, okay, this is good.

01:00:31.619 --> 01:00:34.480
Fine. It's good enough. let's get to the next

01:00:34.480 --> 01:00:36.139
one. Let's get to the next one. But also if you

01:00:36.139 --> 01:00:38.699
take like the early stuff and the later stuff,

01:00:38.800 --> 01:00:41.179
like you had evidence to suggest that you were

01:00:41.179 --> 01:00:46.420
right. I think I was. Yeah. Like, yeah. Y 'all,

01:00:46.480 --> 01:00:50.480
you guys progressed in a way that I think that,

01:00:50.559 --> 01:00:52.559
and I think this is what I was talking about

01:00:52.559 --> 01:00:54.380
earlier where the other bands looked up to you.

01:00:55.239 --> 01:00:58.719
I don't think any band in Tallahassee grew as

01:00:58.719 --> 01:01:02.000
much as a band than y 'all did. That's super

01:01:02.000 --> 01:01:04.460
nice to say, but that is one of the things I

01:01:04.460 --> 01:01:08.400
like the most about that band is it was evolving

01:01:08.400 --> 01:01:13.139
and it was constantly changing. And we had a

01:01:13.139 --> 01:01:15.719
lot of tricks in our pocket. And that was one

01:01:15.719 --> 01:01:17.639
of the advantages of that band was you did have

01:01:17.639 --> 01:01:23.219
five killers, each in their own way. Sure, yeah.

01:01:23.340 --> 01:01:28.949
It was just... Randy was... monster drummer fucking

01:01:28.949 --> 01:01:31.730
rock star monster yeah yeah you know like the

01:01:31.730 --> 01:01:36.409
whole nine yards still probably other than barry

01:01:36.409 --> 01:01:40.150
from shinedown probably the best drummer i've

01:01:40.150 --> 01:01:43.250
ever actually made music played with yeah i'd

01:01:43.250 --> 01:01:46.469
still and i think and i put him yo drummer now

01:01:46.469 --> 01:01:49.510
i think that's put him neck and neck with i he's

01:01:49.510 --> 01:01:52.070
not somebody i've kept up with yeah but i think

01:01:52.070 --> 01:01:54.769
at least for a long time he well he toured he

01:01:54.769 --> 01:01:58.679
toured with He toured with Pat Travers. Oh, wow.

01:01:58.699 --> 01:01:59.980
Boom Boom, Out Goes the Lights. He toured with

01:01:59.980 --> 01:02:03.219
him for five years after No Address. A band called

01:02:03.219 --> 01:02:08.760
Carolina Liar. They had some big MTV hit. Yeah,

01:02:08.800 --> 01:02:13.239
he toured for years after No Address. Completely

01:02:13.239 --> 01:02:16.960
pro drummer. But yeah, I loved it. The band evolved.

01:02:18.280 --> 01:02:21.199
Phil's harmonies were always just so fucking

01:02:21.199 --> 01:02:24.239
gold, man. Anyway. And his guitar tones. Yeah,

01:02:24.280 --> 01:02:26.840
yeah. He's not a shred -em -up guitar player,

01:02:26.980 --> 01:02:29.599
but he thinks outside the box and he'll come

01:02:29.599 --> 01:02:31.460
up with parts that work, but no one else would

01:02:31.460 --> 01:02:34.059
have thought of that. And then his tones are

01:02:34.059 --> 01:02:38.219
just still even... We jammed recently, a year

01:02:38.219 --> 01:02:40.820
or two ago, and just, man, that guy, he just

01:02:40.820 --> 01:02:42.780
plugs in a guitar and plays an A chord and you're

01:02:42.780 --> 01:02:47.039
just like, ugh. And Bill always, dude, Bill just

01:02:47.039 --> 01:02:49.760
was always in the fucking pocket, man. Another

01:02:49.760 --> 01:02:52.219
guy who was never playing what you would expect.

01:02:52.500 --> 01:02:54.260
Like, sometimes his bass lines would be like,

01:02:54.400 --> 01:02:57.360
dude, no one else on earth could make that bass

01:02:57.360 --> 01:03:00.719
line work. Like, it is totally in the pocket.

01:03:00.800 --> 01:03:03.960
It's not poking out. It's the perfect part for

01:03:03.960 --> 01:03:06.019
the song, but no one else would have thought

01:03:06.019 --> 01:03:09.699
to play that. That's a weird thing to play, but

01:03:09.699 --> 01:03:12.460
it works. I would say more than anybody, Bill

01:03:12.460 --> 01:03:15.699
was like... why Noah Dress sounded different.

01:03:15.860 --> 01:03:19.239
Because he was so not a standard rock bass player.

01:03:19.380 --> 01:03:21.639
That's interesting, yeah. Because he was so influenced

01:03:21.639 --> 01:03:24.639
by the Beatles and Zeppelin and this older school

01:03:24.639 --> 01:03:28.119
of bass playing that was more moving around and

01:03:28.119 --> 01:03:31.420
more melodic and more kind of arpeggios and stuff.

01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:35.969
And it's why Noah Dress sounded... a little different

01:03:35.969 --> 01:03:39.610
and funky and weird was because he wasn't always

01:03:39.610 --> 01:03:43.570
just doing the, which I love that kind of bass

01:03:43.570 --> 01:03:46.190
playing. I feel like the only other band that

01:03:46.190 --> 01:03:48.130
was doing that kind of stuff in the nineties,

01:03:48.150 --> 01:03:50.909
like other than Primus or something. Yeah. Cracker.

01:03:51.429 --> 01:03:53.750
Cracker. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I just had his

01:03:53.750 --> 01:03:57.269
bass player on. Oh, awesome. I'll have to watch

01:03:57.269 --> 01:04:01.650
that. Yeah. Or the way that. What's his name

01:04:01.650 --> 01:04:03.750
from Stone's Hill Pilots? Rob DeLeo. Yeah, Rob.

01:04:03.809 --> 01:04:07.150
Yeah. He was another bass player that was just

01:04:07.150 --> 01:04:09.989
playing like James Jamerson, Motown bass lines

01:04:09.989 --> 01:04:14.050
over rock stuff, under rock stuff. And it made

01:04:14.050 --> 01:04:16.010
the band sound really different. And I think

01:04:16.010 --> 01:04:18.309
Bill really was the reason No Address always

01:04:18.309 --> 01:04:21.309
had that like left of center sound was the bass

01:04:21.309 --> 01:04:22.929
was just doing something that you were like,

01:04:23.010 --> 01:04:26.250
huh? Even more than like Ben's vocals or whatever,

01:04:26.349 --> 01:04:28.710
like Bill's bass playing is really what made

01:04:28.710 --> 01:04:32.340
that band sound the way it did. And Ben's vocals,

01:04:32.440 --> 01:04:36.139
sometimes he would sound like Jeff Tweedy, and

01:04:36.139 --> 01:04:40.019
sometimes he would sound like Kurt Cobain. He

01:04:40.019 --> 01:04:46.820
was really versatile and emotional. And dude,

01:04:46.920 --> 01:04:51.519
I'll tell you, one of those, I feel like occasionally

01:04:51.519 --> 01:04:56.579
I can do it. We met non -musically, and then

01:04:56.579 --> 01:05:00.019
anyway, I was like, yeah, I'll jam with you.

01:05:00.460 --> 01:05:02.400
And then the first second I heard him sing, I

01:05:02.400 --> 01:05:06.599
was like, we got to get you a band. Just it's

01:05:06.599 --> 01:05:10.840
such a I'm a sucker for those unique voices where

01:05:10.840 --> 01:05:13.719
you're just like, oh, maybe you don't sound like

01:05:13.719 --> 01:05:15.420
a good singer. I'm not saying Ben doesn't sound

01:05:15.420 --> 01:05:17.780
like a good singer, but you sound like immediately

01:05:17.780 --> 01:05:21.920
recognizable. Yeah. The Tom Waits of the world

01:05:21.920 --> 01:05:24.780
and stuff like that. I'm immediately like, oh,

01:05:24.980 --> 01:05:27.579
I love that voice that you're like. Whatever

01:05:27.579 --> 01:05:29.699
it is, I know exactly who that is immediately.

01:05:29.960 --> 01:05:33.300
It's not like a nice, smooth, hey, you're a great

01:05:33.300 --> 01:05:36.340
singer, but that could be any one of six people.

01:05:36.800 --> 01:05:39.260
But no, that's the only guy that sounds like

01:05:39.260 --> 01:05:42.360
that. And you just don't hear it that often.

01:05:42.900 --> 01:05:46.960
But yeah, I love it. But yeah, going full circle,

01:05:47.039 --> 01:05:50.239
that's what we did was just write and write and

01:05:50.239 --> 01:05:53.460
demo and demo. And that's what kept us on the

01:05:53.460 --> 01:05:55.360
label, and that's what got us to the record as

01:05:55.360 --> 01:05:57.179
the record industry was imploding. It sounds

01:05:57.179 --> 01:05:59.840
like it also is what kept you sane. Yeah, in

01:05:59.840 --> 01:06:03.059
some degree. Yeah, yeah. And I would definitely

01:06:03.059 --> 01:06:06.400
say, to be fair, and I had to deal with this

01:06:06.400 --> 01:06:10.579
later in life, I was absolutely, for a while

01:06:10.579 --> 01:06:14.059
there, a workaholic. I was using that to deal

01:06:14.059 --> 01:06:17.559
with... all of my feelings and all the things

01:06:17.559 --> 01:06:19.860
that were going on in my life yeah i could just

01:06:19.860 --> 01:06:23.199
go in the studio and focus on that and not have

01:06:23.199 --> 01:06:27.900
to live a real life and be an adult or deal with

01:06:27.900 --> 01:06:31.360
past pains and traumas and stuff that i'd still

01:06:31.360 --> 01:06:35.199
not dealt with so for a long time there i was

01:06:35.199 --> 01:06:38.139
absolutely a workaholic like i was definitely

01:06:38.139 --> 01:06:40.940
using that i think back it was almost like a

01:06:40.940 --> 01:06:44.199
compulsion like it was yeah Like you would be

01:06:44.199 --> 01:06:48.380
out and like, as soon as we're obligations at

01:06:48.380 --> 01:06:52.179
a show were over, like you were, I remember we

01:06:52.179 --> 01:06:56.300
did Albany one time and you were like riding

01:06:56.300 --> 01:06:59.900
back that night after the show from Albany. And

01:06:59.900 --> 01:07:01.699
I was like, yeah, I think I better. I like, I'm,

01:07:01.699 --> 01:07:05.239
it was just like one of those nights or something,

01:07:05.420 --> 01:07:08.000
just something. And I feel like there was some

01:07:08.000 --> 01:07:09.739
things that ended up happening that night that

01:07:09.739 --> 01:07:15.130
it was good that I left. weird whatever young

01:07:15.130 --> 01:07:20.670
i was still pretty young and so i rode back with

01:07:20.670 --> 01:07:22.849
you but you just you literally were just going

01:07:22.849 --> 01:07:24.630
like you weren't you were just going back to

01:07:24.630 --> 01:07:29.050
work on record yeah yeah it was was how i was

01:07:29.050 --> 01:07:31.389
dealing with everything in my life and like i

01:07:31.389 --> 01:07:34.710
said i had to then later figure it all out as

01:07:34.710 --> 01:07:38.510
a somewhat normal person but that was how i was

01:07:38.510 --> 01:07:41.710
just doesn't matter doesn't matter doesn't matter

01:07:41.710 --> 01:07:44.170
gotta get back to the studio got the records

01:07:44.170 --> 01:07:46.789
matter doesn't matter doesn't matter girl breaks

01:07:46.789 --> 01:07:48.969
up with you doesn't matter gotta keep making

01:07:48.969 --> 01:07:52.710
records just that was how i was dealing with

01:07:52.710 --> 01:07:56.110
life and i and honestly like past trauma and

01:07:56.110 --> 01:07:58.469
stuff from like high school and stuff that i

01:07:58.469 --> 01:08:01.070
hadn't dealt with yeah i was just shoving it

01:08:01.070 --> 01:08:03.909
down with pro tools you know what i mean it just

01:08:03.909 --> 01:08:07.889
i think there was this Just speaking of, like,

01:08:07.969 --> 01:08:10.429
this is just something I've thought of recently.

01:08:11.349 --> 01:08:13.449
Speaking of, like, high school trauma, like,

01:08:13.469 --> 01:08:16.689
I didn't really go to high school. Yeah, I kind

01:08:16.689 --> 01:08:19.810
of remember that. And I think when I met y 'all,

01:08:19.829 --> 01:08:24.109
I was in middle school. Oh, my God. Yeah. But

01:08:24.109 --> 01:08:28.149
you'd think that the kid hanging out with the

01:08:28.149 --> 01:08:33.630
bands and going to bars and stuff and clubs would,

01:08:33.729 --> 01:08:36.609
like. Like other people would think that was

01:08:36.609 --> 01:08:40.750
cool. Right. But no, they fucking hated me. Cause

01:08:40.750 --> 01:08:44.689
it's like anything that they can find to pick

01:08:44.689 --> 01:08:46.329
on you about, they're going to pick on you about.

01:08:46.869 --> 01:08:51.189
I like, I feel like I probably like people would

01:08:51.189 --> 01:08:54.289
hate the bands I was hanging out with just because.

01:08:54.569 --> 01:08:58.409
Yeah. You know what I mean? But I guess my point

01:08:58.409 --> 01:09:01.930
is, is it like the only place I felt like I belonged.

01:09:02.550 --> 01:09:06.930
Right. Was. at your studio, at Floyd's, at the

01:09:06.930 --> 01:09:10.029
warehouse on Orange Avenue. Yeah. That was home

01:09:10.029 --> 01:09:14.649
to me. That was where I fit in. Yeah. And I didn't

01:09:14.649 --> 01:09:18.229
even feel all that comfortable around the other

01:09:18.229 --> 01:09:21.270
bands, at least in a hanging out sense. When

01:09:21.270 --> 01:09:23.109
it was in a controlled environment, when it was

01:09:23.109 --> 01:09:25.930
in a recording studio, and I was in charge of

01:09:25.930 --> 01:09:31.529
it, Adrian and I, my partner Adrian, we often

01:09:31.529 --> 01:09:33.930
talk about... That's one of the reasons that,

01:09:33.949 --> 01:09:36.289
not the only reason, but it's one of the reasons

01:09:36.289 --> 01:09:38.689
that performers sometimes perform. And you, as

01:09:38.689 --> 01:09:41.750
a performer, a comedian, you might know what

01:09:41.750 --> 01:09:45.050
I'm saying. Why we want to perform and why we

01:09:45.050 --> 01:09:49.869
love performing is that as introverts and uncomfortable

01:09:49.869 --> 01:09:53.390
people, it's a social interaction that A, has

01:09:53.390 --> 01:09:56.810
a defined time, and B, I am in control of...

01:09:56.960 --> 01:09:59.220
The social interactions. Yeah, there's rules,

01:09:59.359 --> 01:10:02.279
right? So it's not just like randomly going into

01:10:02.279 --> 01:10:04.020
a room full of people. It's like we know when

01:10:04.020 --> 01:10:06.220
it starts, we know when it ends, and there's

01:10:06.220 --> 01:10:08.659
rules for how it goes, and I'm in control of

01:10:08.659 --> 01:10:12.159
the situation. Not like I need to be in control,

01:10:12.220 --> 01:10:16.640
but what's important is I'm running what's going

01:10:16.640 --> 01:10:19.720
on in this social interaction as the performer.

01:10:20.119 --> 01:10:22.199
And so that's one of the things that draws us

01:10:22.199 --> 01:10:25.359
to performing. And I'll tell you, I don't care

01:10:25.359 --> 01:10:27.359
how many people there are in a crowd. I'm way

01:10:27.359 --> 01:10:31.159
more comfortable on stage than I am chit -chatting

01:10:31.159 --> 01:10:33.859
at a table with some people. You know what I

01:10:33.859 --> 01:10:36.260
mean? I'm way more comfortable with that. And

01:10:36.260 --> 01:10:43.140
I would say, as a comedian, yes, I agree 100%.

01:10:43.140 --> 01:10:48.199
As a fan, though, I also agree. Oh, really? Yeah.

01:10:48.880 --> 01:10:50.920
it's different when you're actually friends with

01:10:50.920 --> 01:10:53.880
the guy's plan or whatever but i don't really

01:10:53.880 --> 01:10:57.880
want to i talk to people that i love and respect

01:10:57.880 --> 01:10:59.899
on this podcast all the time but it's not because

01:10:59.899 --> 01:11:03.159
i'm like oh my god i can't wait to meet them

01:11:03.159 --> 01:11:07.199
or to talk like i'd almost rather not you're

01:11:07.199 --> 01:11:12.760
right yeah it's weird but i think it's important

01:11:12.760 --> 01:11:16.279
to talk to i think that there i do it for other

01:11:16.279 --> 01:11:20.619
reasons but If I don't have, yeah, I don't really

01:11:20.619 --> 01:11:25.560
want to talk to the guy whose songs I love my

01:11:25.560 --> 01:11:28.920
whole life. And I'll go say hi and get him to

01:11:28.920 --> 01:11:31.340
sign my poster after the show, but I don't want

01:11:31.340 --> 01:11:33.939
to go hang out with him. Yeah. Like that might,

01:11:34.039 --> 01:11:36.739
that's, I feel like it's too much for both of

01:11:36.739 --> 01:11:40.720
us. Yeah. I, dude, I, this gets thrown around

01:11:40.720 --> 01:11:42.500
a lot, but I think in my case it's true. I have

01:11:42.500 --> 01:11:45.399
a ton of imposter syndrome. So that makes it

01:11:45.399 --> 01:11:48.590
hard for me to hang out with other dudes. And

01:11:48.590 --> 01:11:53.310
I never feel like I'm the cool guy. Everybody

01:11:53.310 --> 01:11:56.989
seems cooler to me than me. You know what I mean?

01:11:57.689 --> 01:12:01.289
And whether or not that's true, I know that doesn't

01:12:01.289 --> 01:12:04.569
matter. Like, that's a dumb way to think. But

01:12:04.569 --> 01:12:07.409
nonetheless, especially when I was younger, I

01:12:07.409 --> 01:12:09.750
definitely felt a lot of that. And I was like,

01:12:09.949 --> 01:12:13.250
so even, and I love all those guys. And I wish

01:12:13.250 --> 01:12:15.449
I would have spent more time hanging out with

01:12:15.449 --> 01:12:18.409
them. But I just always felt. These are the actual

01:12:18.409 --> 01:12:21.850
cool kids, and I'd love to get back to my little

01:12:21.850 --> 01:12:25.149
cave because I don't necessarily belong around

01:12:25.149 --> 01:12:29.310
these guys. On one hand, you're like, I do. It's

01:12:29.310 --> 01:12:32.989
so funny. I'm very two sides of a coin. I think

01:12:32.989 --> 01:12:35.550
we all felt that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's

01:12:35.550 --> 01:12:38.609
what united us in a way. Maybe so, yeah, yeah.

01:12:38.770 --> 01:12:41.109
It's like none of us really felt like we belonged.

01:12:41.449 --> 01:12:43.170
And I think there's exceptions to that within

01:12:43.170 --> 01:12:45.729
the scene or whatever. Sure. when you're talking

01:12:45.729 --> 01:12:48.590
about so i've talked about this a lot here where

01:12:48.590 --> 01:12:51.050
i i think like comedians and musicians are cut

01:12:51.050 --> 01:12:53.930
from the same cloth like 100 yeah yeah and i

01:12:53.930 --> 01:12:56.710
even tell a joke that like all comedians wish

01:12:56.710 --> 01:12:59.409
they were rock stars yeah and most rock stars

01:12:59.409 --> 01:13:03.090
wish they were funny yeah comedians yeah yeah

01:13:03.090 --> 01:13:05.609
shane moss was the exception he was and i was

01:13:05.609 --> 01:13:07.229
like yeah you can tell you don't want to be a

01:13:07.229 --> 01:13:11.250
rock star but i think that there there's a lot

01:13:11.250 --> 01:13:14.239
of truth to what you're saying but i think That's

01:13:14.239 --> 01:13:18.539
part of why, especially comics and musicians

01:13:18.539 --> 01:13:21.579
have always run together anyway. But I think

01:13:21.579 --> 01:13:25.619
that's why. And I think it's partially why, like

01:13:25.619 --> 01:13:28.140
the feeling that you're talking about is like

01:13:28.140 --> 01:13:32.500
the thing that made us all be where we were when

01:13:32.500 --> 01:13:35.239
we were like. Yeah. And that's part, that was

01:13:35.239 --> 01:13:39.659
part of the drive too, is if I can, and it wouldn't

01:13:39.659 --> 01:13:42.289
have helped. because I felt like I belonged more

01:13:42.289 --> 01:13:44.210
with y 'all than I did at high school at least

01:13:44.210 --> 01:13:46.949
but there was also I'm wondering something you

01:13:46.949 --> 01:13:50.170
said I'm wondering if for me it was like I'm

01:13:50.170 --> 01:13:51.909
gonna hang out with these people that are clearly

01:13:51.909 --> 01:13:55.630
cooler than me yeah so then I never have to there's

01:13:55.630 --> 01:13:57.850
I'm like it's not like I'm like competing oh

01:13:57.850 --> 01:14:00.050
the spotlight's not on you yeah like I don't

01:14:00.050 --> 01:14:04.649
have to yeah hide in the shadows I I bet that

01:14:04.649 --> 01:14:08.569
was part of it I think to a degree I and also

01:14:09.390 --> 01:14:12.229
I just fucking love the show. I do too, man.

01:14:12.409 --> 01:14:16.649
I just love the thing, man. Yeah, which I guess,

01:14:16.710 --> 01:14:19.930
and I love the show. The buzz. I do love the

01:14:19.930 --> 01:14:24.810
show. And really, it's turned out later in life

01:14:24.810 --> 01:14:28.850
that I found out I'm addicted to performing.

01:14:29.149 --> 01:14:33.890
I do need to perform. Not really for the fans.

01:14:34.029 --> 01:14:36.989
It's really about the high I get from doing it.

01:14:37.369 --> 01:14:42.109
And I need it. Adrian and I will talk about sometimes

01:14:42.109 --> 01:14:44.569
around the holidays, not this year, I have to

01:14:44.569 --> 01:14:47.149
run home and do a couple of shows, but around

01:14:47.149 --> 01:14:51.090
the holidays when we might get a month, maybe

01:14:51.090 --> 01:14:53.189
more with no shows, cause it's just the holidays

01:14:53.189 --> 01:14:56.770
and whatever. And you start getting irritable

01:14:56.770 --> 01:14:59.029
and depressed and we'll be like, why do we feel

01:14:59.029 --> 01:15:00.670
so bad? And it's, oh yeah, we haven't played

01:15:00.670 --> 01:15:04.470
a show in six weeks. Yeah. And it's just like,

01:15:04.550 --> 01:15:06.970
cause it. I don't know, it cleans you out, and

01:15:06.970 --> 01:15:09.810
you just go for it as hard as you can. Yeah,

01:15:09.930 --> 01:15:15.189
so I haven't told you this, and I can't believe

01:15:15.189 --> 01:15:17.609
I almost waited this long to say. Adrian and

01:15:17.609 --> 01:15:20.329
I are writing a book about stage performance.

01:15:20.649 --> 01:15:24.310
Oh, wow. Oh, yeah. It's going to be called A

01:15:24.310 --> 01:15:26.590
Show with a Capital S because we were talking

01:15:26.590 --> 01:15:31.260
about you go see people play music. And that's

01:15:31.260 --> 01:15:33.199
cool. And they play music for a set amount of

01:15:33.199 --> 01:15:37.319
time. But it's not a show. And there's something

01:15:37.319 --> 01:15:42.600
about a show. And it's about... Look at all the

01:15:42.600 --> 01:15:44.960
boilerplate stuff, like the technique of how

01:15:44.960 --> 01:15:47.199
you move on stage and the technique of how you

01:15:47.199 --> 01:15:49.399
block and you move around stage with your other

01:15:49.399 --> 01:15:52.859
people. And I've coached stage performance for

01:15:52.859 --> 01:15:56.479
years now. And we've developed a system for a

01:15:56.479 --> 01:15:59.930
lot of things. But it's also just about... the

01:15:59.930 --> 01:16:03.189
why of why we perform, like what's the drive

01:16:03.189 --> 01:16:07.010
and finding the why. And the central thing we

01:16:07.010 --> 01:16:09.250
found in the book, and I'm sure you get this

01:16:09.250 --> 01:16:13.109
as a performer, there's your sweet spot or where

01:16:13.109 --> 01:16:15.829
it works. The spot where it works is where what

01:16:15.829 --> 01:16:18.609
the audience wants and what you want as a performer

01:16:18.609 --> 01:16:22.909
lock in together, where you find that place where

01:16:22.909 --> 01:16:25.670
you meet, where what the audience wants out of

01:16:25.670 --> 01:16:29.760
you and what you want to do intersect. that's

01:16:29.760 --> 01:16:33.199
where that's what a great performance is a great

01:16:33.199 --> 01:16:37.439
room is have you ever performed solo in any capacity

01:16:37.439 --> 01:16:42.479
no no it just dawned on me that i'm like i'm

01:16:42.479 --> 01:16:44.800
not sure like when you would have it's just not

01:16:44.800 --> 01:16:49.979
no i never have i'm do you think you would want

01:16:49.979 --> 01:16:53.220
if there was a reason for you let's assume that

01:16:53.220 --> 01:16:55.500
there was like a reason for you to i it might

01:16:55.500 --> 01:17:00.529
come up and i might do it but I'm so interested

01:17:00.529 --> 01:17:05.470
in the interaction with band members. And I'm

01:17:05.470 --> 01:17:07.829
a side guy. I always wanted to be a side guy.

01:17:08.869 --> 01:17:12.090
That's when I figured out that the intro to Walk

01:17:12.090 --> 01:17:14.630
This Way was the side guy. I was like, cool,

01:17:14.689 --> 01:17:16.210
that's who I want to be. Or when I saw a picture

01:17:16.210 --> 01:17:18.770
of the Rolling Stones and was like, Mick, and

01:17:18.770 --> 01:17:20.789
oh man, he's super cool. And then wait, who's

01:17:20.789 --> 01:17:23.250
this guy to the left? That's the guy. That's

01:17:23.250 --> 01:17:25.729
the guy. And I always wanted to be that guy.

01:17:25.949 --> 01:17:28.229
And I've always... specialized in supporting

01:17:28.229 --> 01:17:31.510
singers that's what I do as a guitar player is

01:17:31.510 --> 01:17:34.989
I support singers and that's what I base all

01:17:34.989 --> 01:17:37.590
my decisions on and so it would be boring to

01:17:37.590 --> 01:17:39.810
me I've definitely done like duo stuff like Adrian

01:17:39.810 --> 01:17:42.470
and I did duo stuff but you don't feel like you're

01:17:42.470 --> 01:17:46.310
ever working like like insecure about the idea

01:17:46.310 --> 01:17:49.430
though no no no artistically it would be fine

01:17:49.430 --> 01:17:51.949
not interested I'm just not interested I'm interested

01:17:51.949 --> 01:17:53.890
in the interplay I'm interested in I've talked

01:17:53.890 --> 01:17:56.149
to some song like songwriters yeah you have reasons

01:17:56.520 --> 01:18:00.140
to play solo yeah they compare it like it's like

01:18:00.140 --> 01:18:02.039
the to them it's like the closest thing they've

01:18:02.039 --> 01:18:05.560
done to stand up oh yeah we're performing all

01:18:05.560 --> 01:18:07.880
by themselves but it's terrifying to them whereas

01:18:07.880 --> 01:18:09.979
if they're playing with a band those are very

01:18:09.979 --> 01:18:12.159
different things oh they're very different they're

01:18:12.159 --> 01:18:13.539
playing with a band then it's like they have

01:18:13.539 --> 01:18:16.439
their security blanket yeah and they play solo

01:18:16.439 --> 01:18:19.399
and it's like the hardest thing they can possibly

01:18:19.399 --> 01:18:25.149
do yeah and i'm just even like this I like back

01:18:25.149 --> 01:18:28.689
and forth. The collaboration is what's inspiring

01:18:28.689 --> 01:18:31.289
to me. And even as a songwriter, like I am a

01:18:31.289 --> 01:18:35.149
songwriter, I wouldn't write a song by myself

01:18:35.149 --> 01:18:37.630
for myself. Yeah, you probably saw there were

01:18:37.630 --> 01:18:40.750
some early episodes where it was just me talking

01:18:40.750 --> 01:18:44.090
about a topic. I've stopped doing that here.

01:18:44.449 --> 01:18:46.689
Which you can do it if you needed to put it.

01:18:46.689 --> 01:18:49.449
Right, but I might just move it to its own podcast,

01:18:49.729 --> 01:18:54.250
I think. Yeah, no, the collaboration, the back

01:18:54.250 --> 01:18:56.630
and forth, it's way more interesting. It's way

01:18:56.630 --> 01:18:59.310
more interesting. And that's what I always, and

01:18:59.310 --> 01:19:03.250
I'm always like a de facto, I shouldn't say this,

01:19:03.270 --> 01:19:07.029
it sounds cocky to say, I wouldn't say I'm a

01:19:07.029 --> 01:19:09.590
band leader, but I like a little bit like running

01:19:09.590 --> 01:19:14.550
the band from stage. Or a lot of times, especially

01:19:14.550 --> 01:19:17.029
in the early days of the tribute band I play

01:19:17.029 --> 01:19:20.739
with, the Petty Nicks experience. Adrian calls

01:19:20.739 --> 01:19:23.760
it sheepdogging because often I'll be moving

01:19:23.760 --> 01:19:28.659
around the stage and watching for people spacing

01:19:28.659 --> 01:19:33.020
out or losing their energy or whatever. And I'll

01:19:33.020 --> 01:19:36.619
go over and, hey, get it up, buddy, get it up.

01:19:36.659 --> 01:19:39.159
Or I love to stomp the stage right by somebody.

01:19:39.979 --> 01:19:42.500
If you especially wake them up, wake them up,

01:19:42.500 --> 01:19:44.340
especially on a wood stage or a metal stage,

01:19:44.420 --> 01:19:46.939
you can get their jaw to clack. Like if you do

01:19:46.939 --> 01:19:49.300
it, if you just wait and stop, just it's almost

01:19:49.300 --> 01:19:51.380
like double bouncing somebody on a trampoline

01:19:51.380 --> 01:19:53.760
when you're a kid because the stage has a little

01:19:53.760 --> 01:19:55.720
bit of give and you could just pop them in their

01:19:55.720 --> 01:19:57.899
jaw click. And they're like, yeah, you're like,

01:19:57.960 --> 01:20:03.800
yeah, stop slacking off. And so that's like super.

01:20:04.659 --> 01:20:06.420
I don't know. That kind of thing is what inspires

01:20:06.420 --> 01:20:09.279
me to do it. And I love the crowd thing, but

01:20:09.279 --> 01:20:11.619
it's not about the adulation of the crowd. If

01:20:11.619 --> 01:20:13.239
anything, what I love with a crowd, and this

01:20:13.239 --> 01:20:15.699
I'm sure has happened to you, there's that moment

01:20:15.699 --> 01:20:20.420
where a room full of people, however many people,

01:20:20.560 --> 01:20:24.359
locks into being a crowd. Yeah. And then now

01:20:24.359 --> 01:20:28.399
we've got a... Not we've got them, but... We're

01:20:28.399 --> 01:20:30.920
like a new thing. And it includes you as the

01:20:30.920 --> 01:20:33.239
performer. I like to say this sounds really...

01:20:33.239 --> 01:20:36.270
I like to say... There's actually, when things

01:20:36.270 --> 01:20:39.409
are working right, there's an illusion that the

01:20:39.409 --> 01:20:42.090
performer and the audience are two separate things.

01:20:42.329 --> 01:20:45.350
That's almost an illusion. It's everybody in

01:20:45.350 --> 01:20:47.890
the same room vibing together when it's working.

01:20:48.210 --> 01:20:51.329
It's the crowd's giving you energy. You're giving

01:20:51.329 --> 01:20:53.189
it back to the crowd and amping them up. Then

01:20:53.189 --> 01:20:55.430
that energy is amping you up and it's this circular.

01:20:55.949 --> 01:20:59.109
That's super true for stand -up for me because

01:20:59.109 --> 01:21:03.119
if the crowd's not into it. I'm just like, okay,

01:21:03.180 --> 01:21:06.380
I just want to get through my time. Yeah. And

01:21:06.380 --> 01:21:11.760
then I'm not as electric. I'm not as... And if

01:21:11.760 --> 01:21:14.100
they're not laughing, then my confidence goes

01:21:14.100 --> 01:21:17.060
down. Yeah, you can't... So many factors go into

01:21:17.060 --> 01:21:20.520
it. And you can't blame them. No. Because it's

01:21:20.520 --> 01:21:23.319
like a negative feedback loop. And the loop goes

01:21:23.319 --> 01:21:25.340
negative. And you know what? It can be so many

01:21:25.340 --> 01:21:29.279
other factors that aren't you. Like I tell people

01:21:29.279 --> 01:21:31.539
all the time, if you ever get booed, which...

01:21:31.710 --> 01:21:34.550
as a performer, will almost never happen. Not

01:21:34.550 --> 01:21:36.550
as a comedian. As a comedian, yeah, I'm sure.

01:21:36.550 --> 01:21:40.010
But we love it. Yeah, I'm sure it's still, you're

01:21:40.010 --> 01:21:43.170
getting a reaction. So often when a crowd isn't

01:21:43.170 --> 01:21:45.470
into it, it's factors that aren't you. It's like

01:21:45.470 --> 01:21:47.789
you were doomed before you went up there. Yeah.

01:21:48.329 --> 01:21:51.909
It's too hot. It's too cold. The wait staff is

01:21:51.909 --> 01:21:55.050
too slow. Well, and one of the biggest things

01:21:55.050 --> 01:21:57.630
a comic can do is figure that out before they

01:21:57.630 --> 01:22:00.630
go on stage, whatever that problem is. and make

01:22:00.630 --> 01:22:03.449
fun of that problem. Oh, yeah. And then if you

01:22:03.449 --> 01:22:06.810
do that, then it's like you've cracked the code

01:22:06.810 --> 01:22:10.590
of the room. Yeah. But if you, as a band, your

01:22:10.590 --> 01:22:15.149
songs aren't made for making fun of the fucking

01:22:15.149 --> 01:22:20.069
tacos or whatever people are upset about. But

01:22:20.069 --> 01:22:23.810
we do that, too, because we'll be like, for example,

01:22:23.810 --> 01:22:27.590
there was a show recently. It doesn't matter

01:22:27.590 --> 01:22:31.239
where it was. They were sitting backstage, and

01:22:31.239 --> 01:22:34.500
the crowd was way too chatty and loud. They were

01:22:34.500 --> 01:22:37.479
too chatty and too loud, and we knew we need

01:22:37.479 --> 01:22:40.300
to go out there and hit them hard and shut them

01:22:40.300 --> 01:22:43.979
up as soon as possible so they will start paying

01:22:43.979 --> 01:22:46.239
attention to the show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're

01:22:46.239 --> 01:22:49.260
in a fine mood, but they're not in a... We're

01:22:49.260 --> 01:22:51.739
going to need to slap them across the face. They're

01:22:51.739 --> 01:22:54.119
there to see each other, not us. Yeah, and we

01:22:54.119 --> 01:22:57.000
need to get them focused. Not because we need

01:22:57.000 --> 01:22:58.699
the attention or whatever, but... What's going

01:22:58.699 --> 01:23:02.380
to make the show good is getting these guys to,

01:23:02.439 --> 01:23:05.420
hey, this is what's going on. Let's change the

01:23:05.420 --> 01:23:07.819
mood of the room. And so we know going on stage,

01:23:07.979 --> 01:23:11.079
instead of the little ramp up thing we might

01:23:11.079 --> 01:23:14.420
do energy wise, we need to pop them right out

01:23:14.420 --> 01:23:16.840
of the gate. And some of that is not changing

01:23:16.840 --> 01:23:19.460
songs. It's just your attitude going on stage.

01:23:19.500 --> 01:23:22.859
It's just the attitude of performing. We're going

01:23:22.859 --> 01:23:26.880
to hit them with end of show energy from the

01:23:26.880 --> 01:23:29.850
first song. And then once you got it, you can

01:23:29.850 --> 01:23:32.029
back down and start doing the thing. But you

01:23:32.029 --> 01:23:37.050
just know you got to. Or, hey, these guys are

01:23:37.050 --> 01:23:39.770
a little lethargic. Don't worry about putting

01:23:39.770 --> 01:23:43.090
a lot of energy into it for the first 30 minutes.

01:23:44.069 --> 01:23:46.529
They're going to warm up. They're just not even

01:23:46.529 --> 01:23:48.609
close to warmed up. Don't worry about hitting

01:23:48.609 --> 01:23:52.149
it hard. Let them just settle in and we'll slowly

01:23:52.149 --> 01:23:55.229
ramp it. So over the years, I think I've just

01:23:55.229 --> 01:23:59.310
gotten better. I and Adrian and the rest of the

01:23:59.310 --> 01:24:02.649
guys have gotten better at reading crowds in

01:24:02.649 --> 01:24:07.430
that way. Or, man, sometimes you take your foot

01:24:07.430 --> 01:24:09.130
off the gas because you're just like, okay, these

01:24:09.130 --> 01:24:11.130
guys are officially too drunk at this point.

01:24:11.229 --> 01:24:13.869
They are no longer paying attention. We could

01:24:13.869 --> 01:24:15.390
be playing anything at this point. They're still

01:24:15.390 --> 01:24:17.329
dancing or they're still up at the front and

01:24:17.329 --> 01:24:19.390
they're still whatever. They're not scanning

01:24:19.390 --> 01:24:23.170
anything that's going on. So just let's just...

01:24:23.170 --> 01:24:25.909
Cowboy Mouth is one of the bands that I've...

01:24:26.170 --> 01:24:30.130
seen never give up on a crowd yeah like always

01:24:30.130 --> 01:24:32.930
fucking win yeah and they're just one of the

01:24:32.930 --> 01:24:37.109
few that can do it i i dude i sometimes the thing

01:24:37.109 --> 01:24:39.109
that gets me is i'm always like searching with

01:24:39.109 --> 01:24:42.670
the crowd in a way to to find out where they

01:24:42.670 --> 01:24:45.970
are and then try to meet them there and when

01:24:45.970 --> 01:24:49.750
a crowd gets too drunk i can no longer find them

01:24:49.750 --> 01:24:54.489
yeah it's just chaos coming back at me like i'm

01:24:54.489 --> 01:24:56.550
just And that's fine. And I'm glad they're having

01:24:56.550 --> 01:24:58.649
a good time. And it's not like I stopped trying

01:24:58.649 --> 01:25:00.729
or stopped playing hard, but it's like, I'm just

01:25:00.729 --> 01:25:03.109
like, okay, I can no longer find these guys and

01:25:03.109 --> 01:25:05.510
meet them. It's just, I don't know where they're

01:25:05.510 --> 01:25:09.090
at and that, and I don't mind it or anything,

01:25:09.170 --> 01:25:11.550
but you just start realizing those things where

01:25:11.550 --> 01:25:14.170
you're like, okay, that's where they're at. Let's

01:25:14.170 --> 01:25:16.770
give them the drunk version of this. This isn't

01:25:16.770 --> 01:25:19.470
Adrian, for example, has a great story because

01:25:19.470 --> 01:25:22.960
it's a petty Knicks band. We, of course, do Landslide,

01:25:23.000 --> 01:25:24.699
and she has this really great story that she'll

01:25:24.699 --> 01:25:27.539
tell right before that song. But when a crowd

01:25:27.539 --> 01:25:29.920
is in a certain place, she'll cut it short and

01:25:29.920 --> 01:25:32.300
just go, this is Landslide. Because they are

01:25:32.300 --> 01:25:33.619
not in a mood. They're not going to hear it.

01:25:34.000 --> 01:25:37.140
Or maybe they're not in a mood to hear it. Right.

01:25:37.859 --> 01:25:40.619
And you just have to read. I'm sure as a comic.

01:25:40.880 --> 01:25:42.659
Yeah, no, there's times where I'm like, all right,

01:25:42.680 --> 01:25:44.659
I'm going to get straight to the punchline of

01:25:44.659 --> 01:25:46.659
this long joke. Yeah, because this is. And move

01:25:46.659 --> 01:25:49.449
on to. this like crowd pleaser that things are

01:25:49.449 --> 01:25:51.909
moving too fast and I just need to get to it.

01:25:51.930 --> 01:25:55.050
I just need to get to it. Yeah. Having that flexibility

01:25:55.050 --> 01:25:57.850
is I think one of the, it's probably something

01:25:57.850 --> 01:25:59.630
you talk about in your book. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

01:25:59.789 --> 01:26:03.430
Yeah. I want to shift just a little bit because,

01:26:03.489 --> 01:26:05.689
Oh, anything you want to get to. I want to, I

01:26:05.689 --> 01:26:07.869
want to talk about what you're talking about,

01:26:07.909 --> 01:26:12.409
but compared to 20 years ago, how have crowds

01:26:12.409 --> 01:26:16.050
changed? But also the other aspect of it is like,

01:26:16.409 --> 01:26:19.149
What were some of the challenges you faced in

01:26:19.149 --> 01:26:22.149
touring back then that don't exist now? What

01:26:22.149 --> 01:26:25.170
are some of the new challenges now? But also,

01:26:25.229 --> 01:26:28.149
how have crowds changed over the last 25 years?

01:26:28.350 --> 01:26:32.430
I would argue that other than... When I think

01:26:32.430 --> 01:26:35.310
about it, that's not true. I think attention

01:26:35.310 --> 01:26:39.270
span is way down. I think people are often focused

01:26:39.270 --> 01:26:43.460
on... capturing video and pictures and stuff

01:26:43.460 --> 01:26:47.340
so you get a fair amount of the crowd who's not

01:26:47.340 --> 01:26:50.039
present in a certain sense because they're spending

01:26:50.039 --> 01:26:53.260
their time filming i guess for later consumption

01:26:53.260 --> 01:26:55.239
i'm always like where do these videos go you

01:26:55.239 --> 01:26:58.180
know what i mean you never see them later don't

01:26:58.180 --> 01:27:01.060
know yeah it's i i actually really appreciate

01:27:01.060 --> 01:27:05.020
it when bands in comics tell people like no no

01:27:05.020 --> 01:27:09.020
filming i and for or we'll give you you can film

01:27:09.020 --> 01:27:12.250
us the last Or the first couple songs or whatever,

01:27:12.350 --> 01:27:15.090
and then we're done. Which I had the funniest

01:27:15.090 --> 01:27:18.710
thing. We were playing this venue that we should

01:27:18.710 --> 01:27:21.130
not have been playing with Petty Nicks. It was

01:27:21.130 --> 01:27:23.890
just not a great setup for us. More of a bar

01:27:23.890 --> 01:27:27.069
than a whatever. And there were these three guys

01:27:27.069 --> 01:27:30.329
that were all filming the whole time. And then

01:27:30.329 --> 01:27:32.270
every time it would come to a guitar solo, which

01:27:32.270 --> 01:27:34.729
is my part, they would... stop the video and

01:27:34.729 --> 01:27:36.430
put their phones down and wait patiently for

01:27:36.430 --> 01:27:38.010
the guitar solo to get over and then they would

01:27:38.010 --> 01:27:40.689
start filming again and they did that to me they

01:27:40.689 --> 01:27:44.489
did that to me for three hours three hours every

01:27:44.489 --> 01:27:46.689
time i'm just like go home and edit like why

01:27:46.689 --> 01:27:49.649
do you have to like i don't really care you know

01:27:49.649 --> 01:27:52.789
what i mean i don't care but i'm wondering if

01:27:52.789 --> 01:27:54.529
they were just fucking with you it was almost

01:27:54.529 --> 01:27:56.890
like they were because they were right on my

01:27:56.890 --> 01:28:00.369
side of the stage i was clearly in frame yeah

01:28:00.369 --> 01:28:02.109
and i was just like they have these things called

01:28:02.109 --> 01:28:04.979
tripods too like If somebody's going to film

01:28:04.979 --> 01:28:07.300
a whole show, they can just put it on a tripod

01:28:07.300 --> 01:28:09.720
and have fun. Yeah, I don't know. Or whatever,

01:28:09.859 --> 01:28:12.699
yeah. That attention level has changed. I think

01:28:12.699 --> 01:28:16.199
once you get a show past a certain point, it's

01:28:16.199 --> 01:28:19.359
the same as it was. But I think attention spans

01:28:19.359 --> 01:28:23.819
are down. People are content fatigued. So in

01:28:23.819 --> 01:28:28.159
some ways, you've got to be a little more snappier

01:28:28.159 --> 01:28:29.600
than you used to. You used to be able to get

01:28:29.600 --> 01:28:31.640
away with a little more wandering of a show.

01:28:32.460 --> 01:28:34.920
Now I feel like it does need to be a little snappier,

01:28:35.000 --> 01:28:37.520
but not wildly different. And once you get it

01:28:37.520 --> 01:28:39.460
past a certain point, yeah, it's pretty much

01:28:39.460 --> 01:28:43.119
the same. The same rules always apply, probably

01:28:43.119 --> 01:28:47.100
applied back in as long as there's a group of

01:28:47.100 --> 01:28:50.340
people. The same, a group of people is a group

01:28:50.340 --> 01:28:52.979
of people. And it hasn't changed in time. And

01:28:52.979 --> 01:28:56.539
people are people. Yeah. I mean, we, and touring

01:28:56.539 --> 01:29:00.369
was weird because there were times when We were

01:29:00.369 --> 01:29:02.470
in front of crowds that we should not have been

01:29:02.470 --> 01:29:05.210
in front of. You're talking about with no address?

01:29:05.310 --> 01:29:06.989
With no address. When we were touring, we were

01:29:06.989 --> 01:29:08.569
opening for bands that we should not have been

01:29:08.569 --> 01:29:12.329
opening for. I was there the day y 'all met Three

01:29:12.329 --> 01:29:14.170
Doors Down and ended up going on tour with them.

01:29:14.229 --> 01:29:16.170
And I always thought that was a weird pairing.

01:29:16.489 --> 01:29:19.550
I'm sure it was great, but it was also... I'm

01:29:19.550 --> 01:29:22.590
sure that there were times... That was a great

01:29:22.590 --> 01:29:24.989
pairing because we had enough classic rock to

01:29:24.989 --> 01:29:29.210
us. There was a little point of overlap for Three

01:29:29.210 --> 01:29:32.170
Doors fans and us. And then you opened for Shinedown

01:29:32.170 --> 01:29:34.689
for a while. We did. And that was actually pretty

01:29:34.689 --> 01:29:36.750
good. Because again, they're a little, they're

01:29:36.750 --> 01:29:40.489
hard rock and we're not. And I feel like y 'all

01:29:40.489 --> 01:29:43.069
had gotten a little heavier by then too. The

01:29:43.069 --> 01:29:45.949
label forced us to do that. For whatever reason.

01:29:46.149 --> 01:29:48.109
Yeah, yeah. But we had, but those guys still,

01:29:48.270 --> 01:29:50.869
the Shinedown fans still liked guitar solos and

01:29:50.869 --> 01:29:53.369
they were a little Southern rock. When they did

01:29:53.369 --> 01:29:55.390
the Simple Man thing, so that drew in a crowd.

01:29:55.390 --> 01:29:58.430
That's right, yeah. Yeah. We were fine with them,

01:29:58.449 --> 01:30:00.710
but there were a couple other bands that were

01:30:00.710 --> 01:30:03.989
maybe heavier and harder. Maybe some festival

01:30:03.989 --> 01:30:05.430
shows that were probably weird. Festival shows.

01:30:05.609 --> 01:30:08.289
I forget what. The Jacksonville show, the festival

01:30:08.289 --> 01:30:10.930
that I saw was great. Yeah. But I can imagine

01:30:10.930 --> 01:30:14.800
others not being great. There was a couple that,

01:30:14.859 --> 01:30:16.439
and I can't remember what the band was, but it

01:30:16.439 --> 01:30:18.439
was a heavier band. It's not really important.

01:30:18.439 --> 01:30:20.800
It's not really important. But we had 60 dates

01:30:20.800 --> 01:30:23.140
with them, and it was not going well, and we

01:30:23.140 --> 01:30:26.220
just figured out what we need to do to not get

01:30:26.220 --> 01:30:29.720
booed is hit that stage. I feel like I'm saying

01:30:29.720 --> 01:30:32.359
the same thing again, but we had to hit the stage

01:30:32.359 --> 01:30:35.319
with so much energy and so much ferocious energy

01:30:35.319 --> 01:30:38.689
that we're going to go, nope, nope. You might

01:30:38.689 --> 01:30:42.069
not like it. You may not like it, but you're

01:30:42.069 --> 01:30:45.590
going to sit there quietly and take it. And that

01:30:45.590 --> 01:30:48.609
was the only way to turn that crowd because they

01:30:48.609 --> 01:30:51.569
wanted that much heavier band and maybe breaking

01:30:51.569 --> 01:30:53.470
band. No, I forget. Whatever. It doesn't matter.

01:30:54.090 --> 01:30:56.810
And we were like, our attitude was like, we're

01:30:56.810 --> 01:30:59.029
just going to like literally try to scare this

01:30:59.029 --> 01:31:02.609
crowd with the energy level. Like we don't have

01:31:02.609 --> 01:31:04.670
it in the music. We don't, our music isn't that

01:31:04.670 --> 01:31:07.319
kind of angry. It has some anger, but. Sure.

01:31:07.479 --> 01:31:09.859
It wasn't that kind of thing. But energy wise,

01:31:10.060 --> 01:31:12.960
we're going to try to like. And there's a video

01:31:12.960 --> 01:31:17.880
on YouTube that somebody I didn't know existed,

01:31:18.079 --> 01:31:19.899
but somebody else was like, oh, I saw this video

01:31:19.899 --> 01:31:23.140
and I watched it. And there there are they're

01:31:23.140 --> 01:31:25.060
panning the crowd and there's a row of girls

01:31:25.060 --> 01:31:27.760
that are just like they're like not they're just

01:31:27.760 --> 01:31:31.100
like mouth open. What the fuck is this? And that

01:31:31.100 --> 01:31:32.760
was what we were like. We got to get them to

01:31:32.760 --> 01:31:35.640
what the fuck is this? Just so they don't turn

01:31:35.640 --> 01:31:38.640
on us. And it just was like, that was one of

01:31:38.640 --> 01:31:41.300
those stage kind of experiences of going, oh,

01:31:41.479 --> 01:31:44.659
this is what we have to do with this crowd. And

01:31:44.659 --> 01:31:46.920
I bet with comedy, it's the same thing. If it's

01:31:46.920 --> 01:31:49.779
a rule, you got to do something to get them on

01:31:49.779 --> 01:31:52.380
your side or at least get them. I'm sure knowing,

01:31:52.560 --> 01:31:55.060
like you said, watching the crowd ahead of time

01:31:55.060 --> 01:31:57.000
and being like, this is what I'm going to need

01:31:57.000 --> 01:31:59.500
to do with these guys. And then I can get into

01:31:59.500 --> 01:32:02.579
my normal. I think another thing that comics

01:32:02.579 --> 01:32:06.729
can do that is different. than what bands can

01:32:06.729 --> 01:32:11.409
do because a joke lasts 10 seconds if right you're

01:32:11.409 --> 01:32:13.890
not committed for three minutes to some but you

01:32:13.890 --> 01:32:16.689
can throw a joke out there that's on the darker

01:32:16.689 --> 01:32:20.050
side right or on the sillier side or like wherever

01:32:20.050 --> 01:32:24.890
and see if it starts to work and then if it doesn't

01:32:24.890 --> 01:32:28.510
like you right that's when that's when you start

01:32:28.510 --> 01:32:31.550
to see and i haven't ever had to i haven't ever

01:32:31.550 --> 01:32:33.529
really had this experience but that's when you

01:32:33.529 --> 01:32:36.590
start to see comics like almost try to make the

01:32:36.590 --> 01:32:39.170
crowd angry because it's like your guys aren't

01:32:39.170 --> 01:32:42.130
even here to play ball yeah and yeah and i gotta

01:32:42.130 --> 01:32:46.090
yeah and it it's again it's never an ego thing

01:32:46.090 --> 01:32:47.630
you're just trying to do the best show you can

01:32:47.630 --> 01:32:53.170
do and sometimes it yeah no i think any seasoned

01:32:53.170 --> 01:32:56.649
performer has had their ego killed enough yeah

01:32:56.649 --> 01:32:59.289
that then it stops being about that it's not

01:32:59.289 --> 01:33:01.229
about that it's just i just want to do a good

01:33:01.229 --> 01:33:04.819
job and sometimes i'm gonna have to like work

01:33:04.819 --> 01:33:07.159
with you to let me do a good job because ultimately

01:33:07.159 --> 01:33:09.199
what i want is for you to have enjoyed the show

01:33:09.199 --> 01:33:11.720
what are some of the logistical things that are

01:33:11.720 --> 01:33:15.920
different that were there was even though things

01:33:15.920 --> 01:33:18.880
had crashed there was a lot more money in it

01:33:18.880 --> 01:33:21.260
and there was a lot more money in it touring

01:33:21.260 --> 01:33:24.640
was still very profitable back yes i think it's

01:33:24.640 --> 01:33:28.079
like album sales weren't but but i think it still

01:33:28.079 --> 01:33:31.850
is but not It still is, like, in the percentage

01:33:31.850 --> 01:33:34.409
of what people make. Sure. There's just so many

01:33:34.409 --> 01:33:36.550
more hands in the pocket now. Yeah, that's the

01:33:36.550 --> 01:33:38.630
360 deals and everything. I think that's really

01:33:38.630 --> 01:33:41.270
changed. Yeah, venues taking cuts of merch. I

01:33:41.270 --> 01:33:44.050
feel like that never really happened. No. Even

01:33:44.050 --> 01:33:47.569
Floyd's, like, when they would provide a house

01:33:47.569 --> 01:33:51.430
merch guy, it was a flat fee. It wasn't a percent.

01:33:51.529 --> 01:33:54.109
Yeah. It would be like, you guys pay the merch

01:33:54.109 --> 01:33:56.470
dude $100, and we provide him. Yeah. You know

01:33:56.470 --> 01:33:58.510
what I mean? And merch was definitely a big deal

01:33:58.510 --> 01:34:04.300
for us. But yeah, I don't, it just is the same

01:34:04.300 --> 01:34:07.020
thing. I think if anything, like it's just shrunk

01:34:07.020 --> 01:34:11.180
a little bit and routing's gotten probably tighter.

01:34:11.319 --> 01:34:14.199
Like sometimes they used to just, hey, you got

01:34:14.199 --> 01:34:15.579
a show in Orlando and then you got a show in

01:34:15.579 --> 01:34:19.000
Cleveland. And now people don't do the zigzaggy

01:34:19.000 --> 01:34:22.100
stuff. We'd usually be in a decent route, but

01:34:22.100 --> 01:34:23.979
then we'd, they'd be like, oh, there's a good

01:34:23.979 --> 01:34:25.279
opportunity. We're going to send you all the

01:34:25.279 --> 01:34:27.970
way over here. And I don't think people do that

01:34:27.970 --> 01:34:32.050
nearly as much. And I think even more, it was

01:34:32.050 --> 01:34:34.770
always about the super fan, right? The street

01:34:34.770 --> 01:34:39.770
team. But even more now, I think it's really

01:34:39.770 --> 01:34:42.670
become about the super fans. Yeah. Not just the

01:34:42.670 --> 01:34:46.270
casual. A friend of mine plays in a band called

01:34:46.270 --> 01:34:48.369
Murder by Death. Yeah, I know that band. Yeah,

01:34:48.449 --> 01:34:51.210
he's the bass player in that band. And we played

01:34:51.210 --> 01:34:54.710
with him. for a long time in Denver before he

01:34:54.710 --> 01:34:58.630
got that gig. And they may not, they sell out

01:34:58.630 --> 01:35:01.090
everywhere they go. Depending on the city, that

01:35:01.090 --> 01:35:03.289
might be 300 people, that might be 2 ,000 people.

01:35:03.890 --> 01:35:07.789
But we've been to a couple of the shows and the

01:35:07.789 --> 01:35:11.109
armloads of merch people carrying out of there.

01:35:11.409 --> 01:35:15.050
And it's not that they're a famous band, but

01:35:15.050 --> 01:35:17.569
if you know that band, they're very likely your

01:35:17.569 --> 01:35:22.109
favorite band. Yeah, for sure. The Drive -By

01:35:22.109 --> 01:35:24.789
Truckers, I think, are very similar. All of them.

01:35:25.229 --> 01:35:28.189
The people that love that band, that's their

01:35:28.189 --> 01:35:32.710
favorite band. We buy everything. We buy all

01:35:32.710 --> 01:35:35.850
the reissues. And they know if they make a record,

01:35:35.989 --> 01:35:39.670
they can almost, to a pretty exact point, know

01:35:39.670 --> 01:35:42.689
how many they need to make. Or at least a minimum.

01:35:42.989 --> 01:35:45.090
A minimum, yeah. That's what I mean, the first

01:35:45.090 --> 01:35:49.819
run. And so it's just like... they've got super

01:35:49.819 --> 01:35:52.300
fans. And that super fan who is actually going

01:35:52.300 --> 01:35:55.159
to follow you and actually going to buy your

01:35:55.159 --> 01:35:56.979
records and buy the vinyl and all that stuff,

01:35:57.319 --> 01:36:00.739
like, those are gold compared to the casual person

01:36:00.739 --> 01:36:04.180
who's, oh, yeah, I've heard of those bands. Let's

01:36:04.180 --> 01:36:06.600
go. Maybe we'll go to the thing. And those guys

01:36:06.600 --> 01:36:08.500
aren't going to follow you later. Or if they

01:36:08.500 --> 01:36:10.720
do, it's just going to be Spotify. I think those

01:36:10.720 --> 01:36:13.420
people are fewer and further between than they're

01:36:13.420 --> 01:36:16.140
used to. I think they are. But I think the...

01:36:16.140 --> 01:36:20.350
And more... Compartmentalized. Yeah. Or a band

01:36:20.350 --> 01:36:25.550
gets a big pop of popularity. And I love Wet

01:36:25.550 --> 01:36:29.029
Leg. Yeah, yeah. I love them, and I really respect

01:36:29.029 --> 01:36:31.170
what they've done and how they've gotten. But

01:36:31.170 --> 01:36:32.930
right now, they're in this bubble of popularity

01:36:32.930 --> 01:36:35.810
where they're just doing these rooms. And the

01:36:35.810 --> 01:36:39.210
hope is that maybe we won't always be in these

01:36:39.210 --> 01:36:41.329
rooms, but when we shrink down to these rooms...

01:36:42.110 --> 01:36:44.270
those super fans will still be filling up those

01:36:44.270 --> 01:36:46.470
smaller rooms. I think about King Gizzard and

01:36:46.470 --> 01:36:48.529
the Wizard Lizard. Yeah, right. A similar thing

01:36:48.529 --> 01:36:51.010
happened to them. Similar thing. And actually,

01:36:51.050 --> 01:36:52.810
I know this for a fact because a bunch of my

01:36:52.810 --> 01:36:55.010
friends in Denver were going to Red Rocks to

01:36:55.010 --> 01:36:57.649
see them, and they weren't necessarily fans before.

01:36:57.729 --> 01:36:59.289
They were just like, oh, I've heard about this

01:36:59.289 --> 01:37:02.649
band. And then, awesome, friends of theirs were

01:37:02.649 --> 01:37:04.550
like word of mouth. Oh, you've got to come to

01:37:04.550 --> 01:37:07.149
this show. They're so good. But yeah, they're

01:37:07.149 --> 01:37:11.170
just having this moment. But really... Like I

01:37:11.170 --> 01:37:13.750
said, it was always about the super fan because

01:37:13.750 --> 01:37:17.590
it used to be that the super fan is who was doing

01:37:17.590 --> 01:37:20.590
the word of mouth stuff to get you all of your

01:37:20.590 --> 01:37:23.510
fans, street teams, passing out flyers, that

01:37:23.510 --> 01:37:26.949
kind of thing. Now the super fan is that's your

01:37:26.949 --> 01:37:31.010
most coveted market. But I think the opposite

01:37:31.010 --> 01:37:35.329
is true for what you're doing, what a lot of

01:37:35.329 --> 01:37:38.670
these bands that are coming back. Here's the

01:37:38.670 --> 01:37:42.630
thing. You have so many bands coming back and

01:37:42.630 --> 01:37:45.909
touring that were both big in the 90s and 2000s,

01:37:45.909 --> 01:37:48.670
but then you also still have... Yeah, 80s bands.

01:37:49.109 --> 01:37:52.890
The Chicagos and the... Yeah, yeah. All the...

01:37:52.890 --> 01:37:55.909
Yeah. Where they barely have any of their original

01:37:55.909 --> 01:37:57.430
memory, they might as well be a tribute act.

01:37:57.609 --> 01:38:02.329
Yeah. But those aren't the super fans. Those

01:38:02.329 --> 01:38:05.409
are the casual, the person that remembers two

01:38:05.409 --> 01:38:07.350
or three of their songs from back in the day.

01:38:07.800 --> 01:38:09.819
And I feel like that's probably true for Petty

01:38:09.819 --> 01:38:14.239
Nick's experience too, right? Yeah. It is a tribute

01:38:14.239 --> 01:38:17.600
band. Right. So it's very easy because people

01:38:17.600 --> 01:38:19.600
do remember all those songs and they are coming

01:38:19.600 --> 01:38:22.880
for those songs. The band on its own is lucky

01:38:22.880 --> 01:38:26.800
to benefit from a lot of word of mouth. People

01:38:26.800 --> 01:38:30.220
are bringing people to the show. And one thing...

01:38:30.489 --> 01:38:33.369
And just for context, we usually sell between,

01:38:33.449 --> 01:38:37.229
say, 300 and 600 tickets. That's killer. Yeah,

01:38:37.229 --> 01:38:42.529
yeah, yeah. And we usually don't advertise. Occasionally

01:38:42.529 --> 01:38:44.529
we will if tickets are looking a little slow,

01:38:44.609 --> 01:38:48.109
maybe throw up a Facebook ad. But we're very

01:38:48.109 --> 01:38:50.010
lucky to benefit from that word of mouth where

01:38:50.010 --> 01:38:51.710
people are like, oh, you've got to see this show.

01:38:51.829 --> 01:38:54.550
And we always ask, Adrian always asks the crowd

01:38:54.550 --> 01:38:57.850
to cheer, who's seen us before? And it'll be

01:38:57.850 --> 01:39:02.680
about... 50 50 a little less oddly enough it'll

01:39:02.680 --> 01:39:05.420
be maybe yeah it'll be about 50 50 and so like

01:39:05.420 --> 01:39:08.079
the interesting thing is that new people are

01:39:08.079 --> 01:39:12.300
still coming and right yeah that's kind of what

01:39:12.300 --> 01:39:15.479
i mean yeah it's like y 'all don't have the super

01:39:15.479 --> 01:39:18.779
fan you might have petty super fans we have come

01:39:18.779 --> 01:39:22.039
we have there are a number of people that definitely

01:39:22.039 --> 01:39:23.779
come to every show. We're getting to the point

01:39:23.779 --> 01:39:26.460
where there's people that have seen... And see,

01:39:26.500 --> 01:39:28.640
that's just something I wasn't aware of with

01:39:28.640 --> 01:39:31.420
any kind of a tribute band. Yeah, yeah. I can

01:39:31.420 --> 01:39:34.779
imagine it with Zappa Plays Zappa or something

01:39:34.779 --> 01:39:38.239
like that, but I... Yeah, that's interesting.

01:39:38.699 --> 01:39:41.640
I... It's intimidating in a weird way. I don't

01:39:41.640 --> 01:39:44.199
know if you've run into this, but it's great

01:39:44.199 --> 01:39:47.119
that we have people who've seen us maybe 30 times,

01:39:47.260 --> 01:39:50.750
maybe more. But, like, in some ways, they're

01:39:50.750 --> 01:39:53.909
in the crowd right and you're going i feel a

01:39:53.909 --> 01:39:55.590
little awkward that this is basically the same

01:39:55.590 --> 01:39:59.270
show right that you've seen over and over i think

01:39:59.270 --> 01:40:02.069
it's worse for comics yeah really yeah because

01:40:02.069 --> 01:40:05.210
like they know my like i'll they know my punch

01:40:05.210 --> 01:40:10.449
lines and shit and i've always argued we worry

01:40:10.449 --> 01:40:12.470
about it as musicians but i don't think other

01:40:12.470 --> 01:40:17.250
than some very savvy music fans no one remembers

01:40:17.250 --> 01:40:19.789
setlist order You know what I mean? They just

01:40:19.789 --> 01:40:22.229
like the songs. They'd have to see a lot of shows

01:40:22.229 --> 01:40:25.109
before they went, oh, they're playing that in

01:40:25.109 --> 01:40:27.449
order. My favorite band never uses a set list.

01:40:27.649 --> 01:40:31.409
Oh, really? Not ever. Yeah. They did. So they

01:40:31.409 --> 01:40:34.229
did the Southern Rock Opera Revisited Tour. Okay.

01:40:34.409 --> 01:40:37.689
And that was, they managed to make using a set

01:40:37.689 --> 01:40:41.090
list still new because they never had. Oh, that's

01:40:41.090 --> 01:40:43.029
really cool. So, like, I saw three shows on that

01:40:43.029 --> 01:40:46.539
tour. Yeah. Four. But that was the first time

01:40:46.539 --> 01:40:48.399
I'd ever seen them play the same four shows,

01:40:48.560 --> 01:40:50.699
like the same show twice, period, like ever.

01:40:51.859 --> 01:40:53.960
That's pretty awesome. I wish we could do that.

01:40:54.939 --> 01:40:56.760
It's just a different thing. They tried using

01:40:56.760 --> 01:40:58.800
a set list, and they wouldn't follow it, so they

01:40:58.800 --> 01:41:01.279
just stopped. Yeah, they just stopped. We just

01:41:01.279 --> 01:41:03.460
do way more of a theater show, and it is way

01:41:03.460 --> 01:41:05.819
more of a show. Well, that was what that tour

01:41:05.819 --> 01:41:10.460
was. It was a very theatrical thing. And I think...

01:41:11.449 --> 01:41:14.489
The only reason I pointed that out was just because

01:41:14.489 --> 01:41:16.810
I think it's a totally different way of operating.

01:41:17.130 --> 01:41:22.850
Their typical shows are very organic, very raw,

01:41:23.010 --> 01:41:24.489
very not theatrical. And that's probably the

01:41:24.489 --> 01:41:28.949
draw. And they can go slower, probably. It's

01:41:28.949 --> 01:41:31.250
probably fine if there are gaps in between songs.

01:41:31.390 --> 01:41:34.170
A lot of times we find ourselves in situations

01:41:34.170 --> 01:41:37.149
where we're banging songs pretty close together

01:41:37.149 --> 01:41:40.680
because you've got to keep it moving. Not as

01:41:40.680 --> 01:41:42.460
much as the old, I played in a bunch of beach

01:41:42.460 --> 01:41:45.760
bars in Jacksonville, Jacksonville Beach and

01:41:45.760 --> 01:41:48.420
whatever. And man, at those shows, you could

01:41:48.420 --> 01:41:51.840
not leave dead air because the dance floor would

01:41:51.840 --> 01:41:53.720
stop. And if the dance floor stopped, people

01:41:53.720 --> 01:41:55.760
would start wandering out the door. I've heard

01:41:55.760 --> 01:41:58.039
Chris Rock talk about performing like Bonnaroo.

01:41:58.319 --> 01:42:04.199
Wow. And it's unimaginable to me. As a comic,

01:42:04.399 --> 01:42:07.659
controlling a crowd of 80 ,000. That's insane.

01:42:08.560 --> 01:42:11.340
I can't wrap my head around that. Not to be nitpicky

01:42:11.340 --> 01:42:15.340
or go down a rabbit hole, but, man, I'm a huge

01:42:15.340 --> 01:42:17.680
Nate Bargatze fan. Yeah, yeah. I saw him just

01:42:17.680 --> 01:42:20.979
earlier this year, yeah. But not as late. One

01:42:20.979 --> 01:42:23.079
of his specials that was recent was, like, in

01:42:23.079 --> 01:42:25.880
front of 20 ,000 people. And, man, did I love

01:42:25.880 --> 01:42:28.939
his earlier, smaller. And it's not anything against

01:42:28.939 --> 01:42:30.800
Nate. It's not like his material isn't as good.

01:42:30.960 --> 01:42:33.920
I think it stops being the thing that you're

01:42:33.920 --> 01:42:36.800
talking about. Yeah, it stops. And he had to

01:42:36.800 --> 01:42:38.939
slow down because you got to wait for 20 ,000

01:42:38.939 --> 01:42:41.520
people to react to a joke. And you hear it. It

01:42:41.520 --> 01:42:44.960
moves throughout the room. Yeah. And that's,

01:42:44.960 --> 01:42:48.779
I love the material. Nothing against him. It's

01:42:48.779 --> 01:42:51.579
just, it's a different animal when you're playing

01:42:51.579 --> 01:42:53.939
to that many people. No, I noticed the same thing

01:42:53.939 --> 01:42:56.439
when I saw him this year. Like, he wasn't playing

01:42:56.439 --> 01:42:58.760
to the whole room. Yeah. He was just playing

01:42:58.760 --> 01:43:03.439
to this. Yeah. This corner of. Yeah. Because

01:43:03.439 --> 01:43:05.119
that's all he could see. That's all he could

01:43:05.119 --> 01:43:06.800
see. That's all he can pay attention. Although

01:43:06.800 --> 01:43:09.479
music is the same way. I've been lucky enough

01:43:09.479 --> 01:43:13.520
to play, I don't know, 20 ,000 people. I saw

01:43:13.520 --> 01:43:16.880
you play in front of 27 ,000 people. 27, okay.

01:43:17.659 --> 01:43:21.500
And it's not that different than playing to 500

01:43:21.500 --> 01:43:23.899
because that's about how many people you can

01:43:23.899 --> 01:43:26.960
see. You know what I mean? Even if it's the daytime

01:43:26.960 --> 01:43:29.479
and it's broad daylight, once it gets very far

01:43:29.479 --> 01:43:32.510
back, you can't. Yeah, yeah. You know what I

01:43:32.510 --> 01:43:35.810
mean? I don't know what those people are doing

01:43:35.810 --> 01:43:39.010
or reacting to. I will say the first time we

01:43:39.010 --> 01:43:43.090
walked on stage in a civic center when our song

01:43:43.090 --> 01:43:44.909
was actually on the radio so people knew who

01:43:44.909 --> 01:43:48.569
we were because we toured a few months and the

01:43:48.569 --> 01:43:51.050
song wasn't out so nobody knew who we were. And

01:43:51.050 --> 01:43:54.609
when we walked out on stage and that roar literally

01:43:54.609 --> 01:43:57.529
scared me. It was maybe 8 ,000 or 9 ,000 people

01:43:57.529 --> 01:44:01.279
and it was so loud that we all... jumped you

01:44:01.279 --> 01:44:03.859
were just like oh my god granted it's a civic

01:44:03.859 --> 01:44:05.800
center and so it's all held in and stuff it's

01:44:05.800 --> 01:44:09.659
not like being outside but man that sound is

01:44:09.659 --> 01:44:13.720
just it was just like oh god yeah you were like

01:44:13.720 --> 01:44:17.619
you danger that's why people who say they would

01:44:17.619 --> 01:44:19.939
they wish they could have seen the Beatles no

01:44:19.939 --> 01:44:22.479
you don't yeah you wouldn't have heard a goddamn

01:44:22.479 --> 01:44:24.300
thing you wouldn't have heard anything and that's

01:44:24.300 --> 01:44:28.720
why they completely stopped yeah yeah so I hope

01:44:28.720 --> 01:44:31.140
you're going to edit the crap out of this. Side

01:44:31.140 --> 01:44:36.500
note, I didn't. Yeah. Last thing I want to ask

01:44:36.500 --> 01:44:39.220
you, I want to give you a chance to plug all

01:44:39.220 --> 01:44:42.640
the things that you're doing now. Yeah. I know

01:44:42.640 --> 01:44:45.739
we're out of time here, but I just want to make

01:44:45.739 --> 01:44:50.500
sure that... I know you play with Adrian O, Petty

01:44:50.500 --> 01:44:52.640
Nix. There's a couple other guys that you work

01:44:52.640 --> 01:44:56.119
with too, right? Yeah. I want to plug Eric Golden.

01:44:56.399 --> 01:45:00.159
Eric Golden. He does classic country honky -tonk,

01:45:00.159 --> 01:45:03.039
Bakersfield kind of stuff. We did an album last

01:45:03.039 --> 01:45:06.199
year. He just put out a Christmas album. I didn't

01:45:06.199 --> 01:45:10.880
work on it, but it's great. A young up -and -coming

01:45:10.880 --> 01:45:14.380
artist, we did an EP with Lena Corrales. I would

01:45:14.380 --> 01:45:17.039
really recommend checking her out. Very indie

01:45:17.039 --> 01:45:21.479
rock, very 90s. And, of course, yeah, Adrian

01:45:21.479 --> 01:45:26.579
Oh. And, yeah, those are the main things. And

01:45:26.579 --> 01:45:30.899
do you still produce quite a bit? I still produce

01:45:30.899 --> 01:45:37.119
quite a bit. We followed the live thread. Yeah,

01:45:37.199 --> 01:45:40.760
no, I still produce. And I would say that's a

01:45:40.760 --> 01:45:43.500
good part of my income is producing. And it's

01:45:43.500 --> 01:45:46.140
slowed down with the economy and various things

01:45:46.140 --> 01:45:49.319
going on. Not a great time to spend large chunks

01:45:49.319 --> 01:45:52.659
of money for a lot of people. But still doing

01:45:52.659 --> 01:45:54.600
a lot of that. And then, of course, I teach.

01:45:55.289 --> 01:45:58.590
and coach. I do artist development, which is

01:45:58.590 --> 01:46:02.090
basically helping artists figure out exactly

01:46:02.090 --> 01:46:04.609
who they want to be and how to get there. And

01:46:04.609 --> 01:46:07.510
a blanket term that covers songwriting, stage

01:46:07.510 --> 01:46:11.970
performance, music business stuff, all those

01:46:11.970 --> 01:46:13.869
things. So that's something I do. You might have

01:46:13.869 --> 01:46:15.890
a new client. Okay. Yeah, we can talk about that.

01:46:16.229 --> 01:46:19.909
Yeah. I love doing it, man. Some of it was...

01:46:22.060 --> 01:46:24.340
Not got the idea, but some of it that I thought

01:46:24.340 --> 01:46:26.699
thinking back, I was like, you know, what I got

01:46:26.699 --> 01:46:30.119
from guys like Terry Clark and Steve Robertson

01:46:30.119 --> 01:46:34.100
at Atlantic and looking back how helpful that

01:46:34.100 --> 01:46:38.039
was to have somebody help me think so many things

01:46:38.039 --> 01:46:41.279
through and someone who had been in the business

01:46:41.279 --> 01:46:44.500
and think things through. And then, like I said,

01:46:44.579 --> 01:46:49.060
learning how much. stage coaching for example

01:46:49.060 --> 01:46:51.079
that I'd always been doing with bands without

01:46:51.079 --> 01:46:54.140
thinking about we wouldn't talk about we would

01:46:54.140 --> 01:46:56.539
talk about it Ben and I talked for hours and

01:46:56.539 --> 01:46:59.779
hours all the time about everything and or with

01:46:59.779 --> 01:47:01.880
even with Adrienne when I started playing with

01:47:01.880 --> 01:47:04.220
her and just helping and then it's oh I should

01:47:04.220 --> 01:47:07.520
probably be but yeah so artist development performance

01:47:07.520 --> 01:47:11.020
high dot net there'll be links to everything

01:47:11.020 --> 01:47:12.819
yeah yeah in the description yeah performance

01:47:12.819 --> 01:47:16.850
high is who I work for out in Denver, and it's

01:47:16.850 --> 01:47:19.649
mainly a vocal studio. It's a pretty premier

01:47:19.649 --> 01:47:23.569
vocal studio. And then I do, like I said, the

01:47:23.569 --> 01:47:26.010
artist development stuff, and I've been lucky

01:47:26.010 --> 01:47:29.069
enough to have clients in New York and L .A.

01:47:29.069 --> 01:47:34.010
and a few in Europe, and it's been... I really

01:47:34.010 --> 01:47:35.909
enjoy doing it. It's one of those things where

01:47:35.909 --> 01:47:40.050
it's... I obviously love music and the business

01:47:40.050 --> 01:47:42.550
of making music and the business of making art,

01:47:42.670 --> 01:47:45.460
really. And I just love talking about it and

01:47:45.460 --> 01:47:47.260
getting to talk about it with people who are

01:47:47.260 --> 01:47:51.340
like moving along. It's just a blast for me.

01:47:51.420 --> 01:47:53.760
I told a client the other day, they were like,

01:47:53.800 --> 01:47:55.220
oh, we went over time a little bit. And I was

01:47:55.220 --> 01:47:57.760
like, dude, this is barely work for me. You know

01:47:57.760 --> 01:48:00.640
what I mean? I love doing this so much that it

01:48:00.640 --> 01:48:04.220
is work and whatever, but I barely. Yeah, you're

01:48:04.220 --> 01:48:06.560
like, I have to value my time just so I can pay

01:48:06.560 --> 01:48:09.500
my bills. But there's nothing I love talking

01:48:09.500 --> 01:48:13.989
about more and delving into. You get stuck creatively

01:48:13.989 --> 01:48:18.729
or stuck even mentally all the time. We've talked

01:48:18.729 --> 01:48:21.770
about imposter syndrome, and talking that through

01:48:21.770 --> 01:48:24.550
with people can be really helpful. Also, go get

01:48:24.550 --> 01:48:27.890
a qualified therapist. Yeah, yeah. We're big

01:48:27.890 --> 01:48:29.670
advocates for therapy on this podcast. Yeah,

01:48:29.670 --> 01:48:32.729
yeah. But talking about it with just a music

01:48:32.729 --> 01:48:35.670
dude who's been doing it forever and has probably

01:48:35.670 --> 01:48:38.069
suffered the same problems or been around a guy

01:48:38.069 --> 01:48:41.489
who did. It can be helpful for people. So I feel

01:48:41.489 --> 01:48:44.329
really lucky to get to do that. Well, Justin,

01:48:44.489 --> 01:48:47.409
I'm going to have to have you back. I feel like

01:48:47.409 --> 01:48:50.390
we talked for two hours and barely scratched.

01:48:50.529 --> 01:48:52.350
Barely scratches. And it's so we should just

01:48:52.350 --> 01:48:54.390
start a podcast. We should just start a podcast.

01:48:54.729 --> 01:48:58.310
And it's the spinoff premiere. It's great getting

01:48:58.310 --> 01:49:00.170
to reconnect with you, too, man. I was always

01:49:00.170 --> 01:49:04.890
we're so lucky to have you guys around. And and

01:49:04.890 --> 01:49:09.859
honestly, you in particular really. what a great

01:49:09.859 --> 01:49:13.079
fan does is make a band better and you've honestly

01:49:13.079 --> 01:49:15.420
made no address better with just hanging out

01:49:15.420 --> 01:49:18.000
and being like oh i like that one or and you

01:49:18.000 --> 01:49:21.979
go oh cool second set of eyes on the project

01:49:21.979 --> 01:49:25.979
so yeah it's anyway great to reconnect i hope

01:49:25.979 --> 01:49:29.600
we yeah get to talk more and i'll be back yeah

01:49:29.600 --> 01:49:31.880
thank you so much edit this so this isn't like

01:49:31.880 --> 01:49:37.930
crushingly long okay that was thank Like I said,

01:49:37.949 --> 01:49:40.069
it was great reconnecting with Justin. If you

01:49:40.069 --> 01:49:42.729
want us to start our own podcast together, let

01:49:42.729 --> 01:49:46.829
us know in the comments. Make sure y 'all check

01:49:46.829 --> 01:49:49.250
out the Petty Nicks Experience. Check out their

01:49:49.250 --> 01:49:53.170
website. Go catch one of their shows. Next week,

01:49:53.170 --> 01:49:55.310
we got Red Padilla from Red and the Revelers.

01:49:55.689 --> 01:49:57.810
They're my new favorite band. I saw them open

01:49:57.810 --> 01:50:00.289
for Morris Day and the Time on New Year's Eve.

01:50:00.909 --> 01:50:04.289
It was amazing. I've been friends with Red for

01:50:04.289 --> 01:50:08.840
a long time, but we just met. in person when

01:50:08.840 --> 01:50:11.739
we did this interview. So look forward to that.

01:50:12.720 --> 01:50:15.039
I do want to remind you that I've started a Patreon

01:50:15.039 --> 01:50:18.880
for this podcast. I do everything from start

01:50:18.880 --> 01:50:21.380
to finish, from booking the episodes to producing

01:50:21.380 --> 01:50:25.140
them, editing them, distributing them. And if

01:50:25.140 --> 01:50:27.380
you're enjoying it, the Patreon is just a way

01:50:27.380 --> 01:50:29.600
for you to support the podcast directly and help

01:50:29.600 --> 01:50:32.619
keep it sustainable. There will be some extra

01:50:32.619 --> 01:50:37.859
content and some bonus. footage and extra early

01:50:37.859 --> 01:50:41.340
access to things but the main thing is just a

01:50:41.340 --> 01:50:44.399
way to directly support us we also just hit a

01:50:44.399 --> 01:50:47.039
thousand subscribers on youtube today so thank

01:50:47.039 --> 01:50:50.000
you all so much tell your friends about the podcast

01:50:50.000 --> 01:50:51.100
if you've been enjoying it