I think attention span is way down. I think people
are often focused on capturing video and pictures
and stuff. So you get a fair amount of the crowd
who's not present in a certain sense because
they're spending their time filming, I guess,
for later consumption. I'm always like, where
do these videos go? You know what I mean? You
never see them later. Welcome to Overeducated
and Underemployed. We just hit a thousand subscribers
on YouTube, so thank y 'all so much. Tell a friend.
And if you're listening and haven't subscribed,
hit that subscribe button now. We got a really
cool episode this week. A lot of people in this
community, a lot of people I've interviewed,
and myself, can relate to the statement that
rock and roll saved our lives as a teenager.
And Justin Long was the guitar player for one
of the bands that saved my life as a teenager.
I don't really have much else to say other than
I've been friends with this guy since I was a
kid. He's one of my ride or dies. He's been there
since I was a kid. I grew up hanging out in his
recording studio and going on the road with his
band. My life wouldn't be what it is without
people like him and him specifically. So here's
my awesome talk with Justin Long. We get into
it all. I'm overeducated and underemployed. I'm
here with Justin Long. Justin Long is a guitar
player. He's a producer. He's been in bands for
at least 30 years. From Stash to the Petty Nicks
experience. Oh my gosh, Stash, yeah. With a band
called No Address somewhere in between. And we're
going to get into all of it. But I'm going to
ask you the first question I ask everybody. Yeah.
And what's the first song that you remember loving
as a kid? The first one that really got me was
Walk This Way by Aerosmith. oh wow yeah i just
i was hanging around with some older kids and
it was the era where people were getting cheap
record players and old records from garage sales
because they were like all a dollar and somebody
put on toys in the attic and i heard walk this
way and i was like i don't even know what that
is but i want to do that i literally didn't even
get it i was like i don't know i don't understand
i didn't know what guitars were i didn't know
what anything i just was like whatever that is
i want to do that and it took me probably a year
to figure out what that was and then i got a
guitar and then etc so that how old were you
yeah 12 or 13 so it but it was like right away
it was immediate i was just like i don't literally
this is pre -internet dating myself we're gonna
do that plenty we're gonna do that plenty it
is great to talk to you by the way yeah dude
It took me like a year to figure out what that
was. You were just like playing. And then I went
out and found the record. And then I was like
playing the record for people. And I was like,
what is this? Asking adults and stuff. And I
finally figured out, oh, that's drums. And then
here comes the guitar. And I was like, oh, guitar.
I think that's the thing I want to do. So you
like deconstructed it. Yeah. That was probably
an early. I guess even going back a little earlier,
I guess that was the thing that made me want
to play music. The first stuff that really got
me was I used to ride around with my grandfather,
Pops, listening to big band music. And all the
orchestration and all the parts working together
was always so interesting to me. I couldn't really
name a song now because I was just... Sure, yeah.
A kid. But the way everything worked together
was the thing that was so interesting to me.
And then I think when I heard that Aerosmith
thing, and it was like the classic drum intro,
and then the guitar comes in, and then the rest
of the band comes in, and the way it was all
put together, it was like instantly, man, we
got to do that. So at what point did you start?
First of all, where did you grow up? I grew up
in Tallahassee, in Killarne. What was one of
your first concerts that you remember going to?
Gosh. Yeah, I just started wanting to do anything
rock and roll. And we had so few options. And
probably even fewer back then. Probably even
fewer back then, yeah. I don't want to say that
I definitely... It was the guys right above me
in age that really started making an accessible
scene. Anyway, there was... Do you remember some
of those band names, like some of the local bands
that you were seeing? Oh, yeah, of course. I
was just talking to Kim at your party. Bacon
Ray, definitely. What was Tommy Hamilton's band?
I was obsessed with Tommy Hamilton. Gruel. A
little later, I got aware of Magic Wand. But,
dude, we would go. This is, we would go literally
listen. the cab stand, like all the cover band
places. And we would just ask them to like prop
the door in the alley. And we would just stand
in the alley and just listen to band cover bands
all night. And I can't really think of any names
other than like John Kerswig. You're like under
age. Oh, 15, 16 years old. And we would just
be like, well, you just like prop the door and
we'll just stand or the cab stand. We'd get them
to, I think they just kept the door open. for
the door and we would just stand outside and
just listen from outside to all these cover bands
it's so funny because like i i had the same struggle
but i just started talking to all the local bands
and be like hey i'll pass out flyers if y 'all
get me into the show i think just annoyed them
because we'd pounce on them they'd come out for
a smoke break and we'd be like hey what's that
i saw you push that one but what's the what's
that and they'd just be like kid anyway so you're
watching the sound guy you're watching oh yeah
but my first maybe not my first big concert but
I remember seeing Van Halen and Alice in Chains
was opening for them on their first album and
I did see Aerosmith pretty early on not much
though there just weren't many opportunities
which is why we wound up just like sitting outside
doors like listening to what we could hear from
the parking lot because But you knew immediately,
like, the moment you became, like, a fanatic,
you knew you wanted to make music, too. Oh, yeah,
absolutely. It was, like, simultaneous. It was
immediately the only thing I wanted to do. How
did your family react to that? Not well. Not
well. Yeah, man. No, they were cool. It was obviously,
like, and I... For a minute there, I had a lot
of trouble in school because all I wanted to
do was play guitar. And we had to get a little
balance on that, which was great. But yeah, left
to my own devices, I would just practice guitar
eight hours a day. It was just all I wanted to
do. And I've been pretty lucky to do mostly that.
Yeah. I can't think of a time that I really remember
you having a normal job. No. And I mean, once
I became aware. Yeah. And later I did, but they
were all also music related. You know what I
mean? Yeah. Yeah. And, but yeah, that was my
thing. I just, I don't know what snapped in my
head, but I was like, whatever that is. And then
of course I was a big of the Nirvana generation
where I probably looked exactly like this before
it was cool. Like I was a huge, nerd and social
outcast until Nirvana came out, luckily, when
I was in, I don't know, I guess ninth grade.
And then all of a sudden it was cool to play
guitar and have long hair. This is probably a
little after your time, but it reminds me, there's
this episode of an animated show, a kid's show
called Doug, where all of a sudden the look that
Doug has worn every day for the entire show.
He's like the most popular thing around. Yeah.
It's like on the TV show. Yeah. And everybody
shows up dressing like him. Yeah. And then the
next week, the fad changes. Right. And they're
like, why are you still wearing last week's fad?
Yeah. And he's always been wearing it. And it's,
yeah, it was a little bit, I got lucky to do
that. Yeah, anyway, that was my early music stuff.
I'll tell you a funny story, too, because I was
maybe 14 or 15, and we were going to make a little
EP. And I don't know, somebody just looked up
in the phone book where you would record something,
because we were just doing the GarageBand thing,
but we were writing some songs. Or Phil was writing
songs, at least. Phil Morton. Phil Morton, yeah,
who I've played with since the very, very beginning.
And we were going to make a little EP, and we
just looked up where to go. And it was Flamingo
Studios, which I don't remember where that is,
but it's here in Tallahassee. And the engineer
was John Kerswig. And that, I think, is where
I met Kerswig. But it's what got me later, not
even later, it's what got me into producing,
was I realized, I thought it was just about the
playing and stuff. Like naturally, you're just
playing in your garage and you're just hanging
out and you're playing and you're writing songs.
And I just thought that's what it was. And like
many people do, like recording an album is just
like taking a picture and like you just we're
just going to do our thing. But then I saw Kurzweil
putting in the process and doing things to make
things sound. And all of a sudden it started
sounding like a record. And I went, oh, there's
so much more to this. And oh, maybe I want to
do that, too. Or maybe a realization of. oh,
what I really like is records. Like, I love playing
and stuff, and I really do, and love performing.
But, oh, like, maybe what I really love is records.
And that was where I first got the idea that,
oh, there's more going on here than they just
put a band in a room and press record and...
I mean, unless you're like Steve Albini. Oh,
sure, and there are producers that work that
way. But even the idea of doing multiple takes,
like when you go in at first, you're just like,
what? We just played it in our garage and it
was great. And then you go into a studio and
you play it and you're like, take one. And no,
I think that's good. Let's listen to that. And
then you walk in the other room and you listen
and you're like, oh, that's not what I thought
it was. Like, that is not nearly. I'm trying
to think if I ever even had that illusion. That's
interesting. Yeah, I totally did early on. And
then I started realizing like, oh. there's some
magic fairy dust on this but you probably had
more of an exposure and i can't remember if we've
ever had this conversation to like pop music
and stuff when you were a kid because i for various
reasons had almost none okay you know what i
mean so that's i think that's an interesting
dynamic about all this is like obviously not
no no yeah if toys in the attic is like this
thing you deconstruct at 12 or 13 yeah then Yeah,
I mean, I probably heard the Beatles at five,
and I probably heard the Walk This Way when I
was younger, but I probably heard Walk This Way
with Run DMC before I was 10. You know what I
mean? So, yeah, no, I was definitely exposed
to all of that. And I think not only that, I
think by the time I was coming up, so much of
it was on TV. Yeah. So much of it. And this is
like the double side of this coin, right? There's
one, you get to see this like presentation and
it video killed the radio star kind of shit,
right? But the other side of it is you actually
start to see how the sausage is made a little
bit more. Right. And so I'm just not sure that
I ever, and then not only that, by the time I'm
13, I'm hanging out at your fucking studio. Right.
Were you that young? Yeah, I was. Yeah, yeah.
I'm just not sure that I ever had that illusion.
Yeah. So it's just interesting. I had no, I mean,
for whatever reason, like no real exposure to
music at all when I was a kid. Not that you didn't
hear random. You ran to places and you hear something.
You never took piano lessons as a kid or anything
either? No, no. And no MTV. I mean, they had
MTV. I'm not that old. You're not much older
than me. It doesn't matter much now. It mattered
a lot then. Yeah, we just didn't watch MTV. We
didn't listen to the radio in the car. Or not
that I remember. I remember... being at a swimming
pool or something and hearing Edge of Seventeen,
but it didn't affect me in any way. I just thought
it was weird that they said dove in a song. I
was like, I remember that. And now I have to
play that song for the rest of my life. We'll
talk about that, too. But yeah, so it really
hit me, and I just really did not get anything
about it. That's an interesting thing, too, is
as much as I heard that song, And immediately
wanted to do that and was like, that's what I
want to do. That's all that I want to do. And
I tell people this all the time when I teach.
I started with no natural ear for music. I had
no ear for pitch whatsoever. If you played two
notes, I couldn't tell you whether those notes
went up or went down. I literally couldn't. And
I had no natural rhythm. And so I was just...
Starting fumbling in the dark trying to figure
this out because I just didn't have any natural
ear. But you eventually became a drummer too,
right? Yeah, I played drums. But my point is
you can teach yourself all of that. It's not,
oh, I don't have a very good ear. You can teach
yourself to have a good ear. Now I have a relatively
good ear. My wife, she can hear a melody and
just play it for you on the piano, so that's
humbling. Yeah, I started just fumbling in the
dark and I had no idea how any of it worked.
And just, it made me, it's part of why I dove
into music theory so much early on was like,
I needed the theory because I couldn't hear the
notes. So I needed to do it almost paint by numbers.
Like mathematically. Mathematically, yeah. And
then later, of course, you develop the stuff.
Were you good at math in school? No, just musically.
That was just. how it clicked for you it just
clicked for me yeah it made sense it was just
like oh okay and music theory is easy it's not
even math is making it sound too hard there's
only so many notes so like really it's not in
our western in our western yeah absolutely that's
a whole other thing oh god i had to produce an
indian track reproduce like an indian hit thing
And I couldn't, I did it, but I couldn't figure
it out for the life of me. Like I couldn't, I
was just literally like playing the track and
then going, okay, so there was a little drum
there. Play it. Okay, there's a little drum there.
I couldn't count it. I couldn't figure it out.
I was just literally copying what was going on.
It took forever. But yeah, that was my early
stuff. And then. gosh yeah we were just following
around these guys so you met john and you start
to realize how records are made right in it and
like that did that fascinate you right away like
immediate immediately yeah i really like a puzzle
i really started listening to i remember the
realization that oh because of that session with
john there's reverb and there's effects on things
right it's not just We're not just hearing a
dry whatever. There's a little. And yeah, I got
really obsessed with that and later got a four
track and was just obsessive making little recordings
on the four track. At what point do you start
to explore like digital stuff? Oh, way later.
There was nothing digital. By the time we're
I mean, you were working with a really early
version of Pro Tools. Yes. Coming around in the
early 2000s. Yeah, we got... It depends on how
you say digital. What we got first was ADATs,
which are these huge tape machines that used
VHS tapes. So they were like digital tape machines.
And I guess now we're getting... But that probably
cost the tape down. Considerably, right? It did,
yeah. Like switching to an ADAT from... And we
got so... I did a bunch of records. I did a bunch
of punk records on... For some reason, I got
into, this is when I'm maybe 20, 22. I got into,
it's probably right before I met you. I got into
the, I don't know if it was Riot Grrrl, but it
was these all -girl punk bands that were like
at FSU. And so I did a bunch of records for them.
And that was when we only had eight tracks. And
it was digital tape, but it wasn't like you could
see it on the screen. It was just a tape machine.
But it was digital tape. So we just had eight
tracks. So it was like two mics for the drums.
It was very minimal and they were live recordings,
but that was my Steve Albini phase of just band
in a room. But you do takes and takes and takes
until you got a good one. So when you first got
your first four -track, are you just recording
your friends' bands in high school and stuff
like that? No, exclusively either just messing
around by myself or my band, my high school band,
which at the time was Sudden Heaven. And that's
interesting, talking about live stuff. We took
it into our own hands, really. It was the start
of a lot of things for me because we were 15,
16 years old. We couldn't get gigs anywhere.
So what we started doing was going to places
and going, Hey, we'll rent this place out, throw
a sheet over the booze. We'll rent it for a flat
fee. We'll give you 500 bucks and then we'll
sell tickets. And it blew up for us because we
were the only game in town. If you weren't 18
or 21, these were the only shows you could go
to. So it really was like, it was, I'm not saying
people didn't like us, but. We were also the
only game in town. So very quickly, we were selling
200 tickets and then 300. And then we were selling
400 or 500 tickets. And we just kept having to
move higher and higher up. And we were sneaky
because people would figure out. They would be
like, we'd be like, we'll rent your place for
500 bucks. We really don't need any staff. We'll
bring in off -duty police officers, throw bottles,
throw a sheet over the booze, whatever. What
kind of rooms were you renting? Dude, we did
VFWs. We did the women's club that had a ballroom
that was over by Lake Ella. Where else? We did
Fire and Ice, which was also the library at one
point. Any place that would rent to us. We did
the early cowhouse one time. A couple times.
They were actually very cool about it. But a
lot of times places would, oh, there was an art
gallery in Railroad Square. Just any place that
had a room. 621 does some like comedy shows still.
Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. But we would have to move
around because they would think they were ripping
us off, taking 500 bucks for a rental. And then
we'd load in three, 400 kids and they'd be like,
ah, we got to renegotiate. And we're like, ah,
we're going to go down the road. Like we'll find
somebody else. Cause, but like I said, it was,
it was a great look into the music business in
a way of being like, entrepreneurs like we'll
just if people aren't opening doors for us we'll
just open the door we'll just figure it out and
that's ironic in that i was on a major label
later but like early on we were just like we're
just going to do this ourselves yeah you know
what i mean if we can't get anywhere i think
we started in like pizza joints or whatever like
just being like and then it would pack up with
kids and then we had a long -standing weekly
show at hole in the wall which is now Leon Pub.
And we would play Sundays like early, like five
to eight or something with two or three other
bands. And that would pack out. And then we were
like, oh, let's just rent places. And everything
was fine until somebody got hit in the head with
a guitar somebody threw in the audience. And
then we were like, oh, we probably need security.
So we started getting off -duty police officers.
And yeah, that went along great for years. That
was really my early live stuff. It wasn't bar
gigs. It was shows. Yeah. Like shows. I can think
of so many reasons why that wouldn't work now,
though. Oh, yeah. Like insurance. People didn't
think about that stuff back then. Like attendance.
Even just getting people to go anywhere now is
so much harder, I think, too. You were around
in that era. I saw it change. Yeah, you saw it
change. Before my eye. Yeah. and i probably didn't
because i was probably on the road around that
time but for a while it was not a question of
are we going to go out and see shows this weekend
it's which shows are we going to go out and see
it's a given here it's a given that we're going
out yeah i'm talking about here are we going
we had club down under we had the cowhouse we
had the moon the moon was booking regular shows
everybody yeah yeah everybody was like when the
civic center was getting starting to get some
more shows and everybody was like we're definitely
going out friday and saturday so floyd floyd
was the staple yeah i mean local music especially
so it was like in a way it was when it got into
the social burn days and the no address days
it was a given like bottom of the barrel you
could draw 100 people 150 people and you were
like yeah i mean draw But also, half these people
are going to be at Floyd's either way. Right.
They're just there to see whoever's playing.
Whoever's playing. But it was, and I feel for
bands now, and I'm still in bands and in a couple
of original bands, it is so hard to draw. And
you see these people work and work, and they
can maybe draw 35 people. And back then, it was
just like, it was easy. It wasn't easy, but it
was like... It made me look real good when I
would be passing out flyers and then 700 people
would show up at Floyd's. And you would get crowds
like that and it wasn't even weird. You weren't
like, oh my God. It was like, of course, that's
what we do. Yeah. And it didn't matter if it
was like a football weekend. Like none of that
seemed to matter. No, it really, that crowd wasn't
really following football. It was just, it was,
I think a lot of people did really cool things.
And now, of course, we're talking about the Floyds
days. That's how it goes. Yeah, we're all over
the place. Yeah, that's fine. But they did a
better job. And I've told people Denver, it's
one thing Denver doesn't do, but they did a better
job of if you were a band in the scene and you
were playing regularly, it was a given that you
could get into any show for free. And I'm not
saying like in this like we were a big deal or
anything, but it was just like it created a scene.
because you'd be like, sure, we'll just go see
our buddies at Floyd's. You'd play a show at
Floyd's and you'd look out in the audience and
there'd be 20 or 30 other of the musicians in
the scene because you'd get in and they wouldn't
charge you to get in and maybe you'd get one
drink. And it was like not, there was no barrier
to, you could just go and it wasn't a big deal.
And it was almost even became expected for you
to go support your friends and stuff. Yeah. So
it made a scene. And now I think it's just, it's
not even in the budget. For the same reasons
we were talking about. And it may not be. Yeah,
it may not be. With like insurance. Yeah, that
may be totally fair. All of that stuff. I feel
like it's just, the audience isn't there to support
it either. Right. If you have 700 people, then
you can let 50 people in for free. Yeah, because
it doesn't. Yeah, just whatever. But Tallahassee
got really such a scene going. And so fans would
come out because it was a scene. And if you really
liked a band, you would go out because you would
probably run into somebody from that band. So
then Creed happens here. Creed happens. What
kind of happened after that? Did it leave like
a vacuum? In my... This is not something I really
experienced. I came in like right after that.
And the Creed guys are like five years older
than me. So we didn't really have much to do
with them. No, but... And to be fair, the bands
I was in when Creed was blowing up, like I was
aware of it, but I was much more in the cowhouse
kind of scene and in the more indie... And they
were Floyds. Weirdos. And they were Floyds. So
that kind of was... Like their manager owned
Floyds. Yeah, and really great guy. Gave me some
great advice a couple times. Not that I knew
him well, but talked once or twice. Yeah, yeah.
Very savvy business guy. Anyway, we knew it was
happening, but it just wasn't our scene at the
time. And yeah, but I think when they blew up,
it really did. A, it did leave a huge vacuum.
But then B, I think it lit a weird fire that
like, oh, we can do this. Like people from our
little town. And I never saw Creed live or anything.
And I would run into the guys around. And you'd
be at a bar playing pool or something. And they'd
be around and stuff. But they were a little older.
So it's not like we hung out, hung out. But anyway.
I'm not sure there are guys I would have hung
out with. I'm just not sure. I will tell you,
Mark Tremonti in particular is one of the nicest,
coolest dudes. We later played with them live
a few times when they were in Alter Bridge. Oh,
yeah, Alter Bridge. And it's a funny story. The
first time we played with Alter Bridge, we soundcheck,
and then everybody's two opening bands, we're
all standing around in a knot. And Mark walks
over, and he's like... Hey, guys, just wanted
to introduce myself. I'm Mark, and we're all
like, yeah, we know. He introduced himself like
we're not all aware that you're Mark Tremont.
You've been famous for quite a few years now.
But I've thought about this exact kind of thing
before. Is it weird? Is it weirder if he doesn't
introduce himself? It's weirder. But at the same
time, it's just funnier. He's that down to earth.
You know what I mean? Like huge rock star, multimillionaire,
several projects he's gone platinum with. And
he's just, hey, I'm Mark. Not Mark Tremonti.
He's like, hey, I'm Mark. And I'm like, everybody
knows. We're completely aware why we're here.
We also saw the big marquee out front. Yeah.
Anyway. The reason I asked is I felt like, and
we'll get into exactly what happened in the early
2000s and the Tahasi scene here in a few minutes,
but I felt like there was definitely some weird
impacts when five bands got signed. Right. And
left. And I'm wondering how that compared. Because
you were in one of them, so I don't know that
you really... were aware of what was going on
here after that. I think Creed blowing up was
awesome, certainly awesome for those guys, and
certainly well -deserved for John Kerswig. But
I think it really, the two reasons are, it made
it look possible for the rest of us. It was not
something we, it was the dream. but it was not
something we really thought could happen in that
way, in that mainstream way. We thought maybe
you'll get in a van and you'll tour the cow houses
of the country for long enough, and then maybe
you'll get something. And there were bands doing
that. And there were bands doing it. From nowhere.
Yeah, yeah. The Drive -By Truckers are a good
example of bands that were doing it. They're
a great example, and I respect that. But the
blow -up and the radio. play and all of that
stuff was not that was like oh we could do that
and not in that way and we would have never thought
we we weren't the same type of dudes and we didn't
make the same type of music really other than
it was rock but at the same time it was just
like oh that's doable you know what i mean and
john made that record in his house right so oh
you could make a record in your house that could
have that kind of success and that kind of radio
play. And it had never seemed real before. Were
you making other people's records before then?
That was probably right before I started making
other people's records. Do you think there was
a connection there? I think there was a connection
there. Because it sounds like to me, it not only
made it seem possible for bands, but for a producer.
For producers. Yeah. And I'd been to John's house
a million times. record that sold millions and
millions of cars six million or whatever it sold
and i like and it was made in a place that like
i could probably go over there and knock on the
door and just say hey what's up you know what
it's like not there's not this huge barrier to
entry there's not this huge studio in la and
there's not this whatever it made it seem possible
that like you're gonna have to work very hard
because you're so far away from understanding
how to do that but it's doable. I think, I think
that was the impact of John and Creed was like,
Oh, we could really do this. So I'll tell you
what I think happened after five bands left Tallahassee.
Okay. I'm really interested. It was a different
time too. Cause I think what we already touched
on, what was already happening simultaneously,
right? Like the internet, like people stopped
buying records. They stopped buying CDs. The
internet is. taking over everything, whether
it's distribution or even marketing, just like
how people find out about things. But I think
it actually killed the scene in Tallahassee.
Really? A long time. And now I think there's
other things going on, and what I saw was not,
oh, my God, it's possible. Right. On a long enough
timeline, I saw five bands get chewed up and
eaten alive by the machine. We sure did. I mean,
that's the other side of, that's what I saw.
And I saw it happen to bands whose records came
out and were successful, semi -successful, or
bands whose records never even came out. Never
even came out, yeah. And were produced by a crazy,
like that Standstill record, I don't think ever
came out, did it? No. And it was produced by
one of Paul McCartney's producers. Yeah, yeah,
I'm blanking on the guy's name, yeah, yeah. So
I just think it's and I'm wondering how much
of that and we're not going to have the answers
to this, but I'm wondering how much of that is
like the environment in which it happened. I
think I the way I've seen I've been thinking
about this a lot just the last few days. The
way I see it is the first time it was the same
thing for the record labels. Oh, they didn't.
Like, oh, my God, we can find a band in small
town, whatever, and make millions of dollars
off of it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they've
been doing that a lot, but it was like a new
way to do it, right? Yeah. A new city for them
to pilfer, if you will. And that's how I view
it now. Like, looking at it back 20 years later,
25 years later, I see them, like, make a bunch
of money off of Creed. A bunch of guys here get
stars in their eyes with good reason. Yeah, sure,
sure. And the labels descend upon the city and
capitalize on that and basically just, like,
strip those bands to the bone, leaving the Tallahassee
with not much of a scene. And those guys, most
of them did not go into music after that. A lot
of them did. Some of them did. Some of them did.
But it was a meat grinder. And at the end of
it, we were very broken people, speaking at least
for the no -address guys. We can talk more about
specifics off of this, because I'm not trying
to air anybody's dirty laundry. But you're not
alone there. No. I mean, I think who deserves
the credit, if we're talking Tallahassee music
scene, to me, is Creed. And then there was a
gap. A couple year gap. It wasn't like people
came in. No, it was at least five years. Yeah,
a couple years. And the guy who deserves credit
is Neil Alday. Alday? Yeah. Yeah, from Social
Burn. Because they were the first ones to start
getting some heat and getting some interest from
labels. And Neil was a bulldog about harassing.
those label people that were interested in him
to see other Tallahassee bands. Sure, sure. He
was the guy, I think, who eventually started
the Feeding Frenzy and got it on their radar
that there was this scene happening because I
remember Neil would just be like, who you got
to see is whoever. You need to get down here
and see these guys. You need to get down here
and see these guys. And I want to be super clear.
This was like a... favor this was a very good
thing this was a a favor neil was doing because
he believed in no i'm i'm giving him yeah the
biggest praise possible what a guy to do that
yeah yeah i'm gonna take time out of my time
to talk to you to tell you about the bands that
are in my town right and dude i'm not i'm just
being clear i'm not suggesting that neil was
no no you aren't either but he was the best and
i think he's who put it on people's radar and
there were a few other things And we had that
one song that kind of blew up locally on radio.
And that also brought, I think that's what brought
some other attention. Wait, this band's been
on the local radio, whatever. And there were
other things. But I think Neil started the ball
rolling or at least gave it a lot of momentum
in the best way possible. And when you talk about
five bands getting major label deals right back
to back, it was because they discovered. Terry
Clark had a lot. Really, at the end of the day,
Terry Clark deserves it. And those two are pretty
inseparable anyway. Certainly at the time. I
don't know. They're still homies. I'm in pretty
good touch with them. Oh, that's great. I should
be in better touch with Terry. Or he's mad at
me. I don't know. I don't think Terry's mad at
anybody. Okay, okay. Then he's changed. He has
changed a lot, man. He's mellowed the fuck out.
Yeah, yeah. Now he's mad about that joke. I'm
not cutting it. Sorry, Terry. I absolutely love
the guy. I'm just so bad about. But he was, I
think he was a key figure. He'll be the first
to tell you that he got that way. He was protecting
people as much as he was. Oh. He was. ruthless
but it was to protect absolutely right and i
mean somebody that took care of a lot of things
that nobody even knew needed taking care of taking
care of at the time yeah but and i'll give him
credit and i used to have these three hour long
conversations with terry and we'd goof around
and laugh a lot but terry really changed the
trajectory maybe not Of my career, for sure.
He came in and made some stuff happen. So I give
him all the credit for anything I did. Terry
was a big part of it. But he was a big part of
how good I was able to be, however good that
is. He was willing to tell me hard truths a number
of times that other people would not have told
you. Other people would have been like, that's
too honest, that's too mean. And he would just
cut right to it, and I would go, okay, I will
go work on it. Did he convince you to start playing
guitar again? No, he did not. He did not, but
that's how we met, because I met at a session
with Bobby Salvaggio producing, and it was a
time when I was playing both drums and guitar
on a record, on the Stash record. So I played
both drums and guitar on that record, because
our guitar player quit, so I was like, I'll just
play the guitar parts, because I wrote a lot
of them. And then I met on the day. And Terry
may not remember this, and I may be misremembering
this, but it's one of my favorite memories. I
was doing the drums and then got done doing the
drums, and Bobby's like, okay, let's switch over
and have you do the guitar. And Terry, I could
hear Terry. I hadn't met Terry yet, but I could
hear them talking and laughing in the control
room, which was all cool. And then I play the
guitar part, and then Bobby clicks in, and I
hear Terry go, who the fuck is this guy? I can
hear it. Yeah. And I'm so proud of that. If that
is true, I am so proud of that because I was
like, oh. And then later when I met Terry and
stuff. So that was a big... And Stash brought
some heat, to be fair. We were talking to several
label people right before it just imploded and
we couldn't quite get there. But we were talking
to some label people. And so I think that brought
some eyes on the scene. But I think you're right.
Ultimately, I even heard people say that this
is like a new Seattle. Right. Way smaller. But
what was so unique about Tala, what was going
on here? Yeah, because there's five bands that
are getting, and really more like probably seven
or eight that are getting like pretty, there's
five that ended up getting. Yeah, but there were
a lot. But there wasn't like a unified sound.
At all. None of these bands sounded alike at
all. Like Presence was like a rap rock band.
Yeah. That sounded like Rage Against the Machine.
Yeah. And then Social Burn was just great songwriting
rock. Yeah. But like catchy hooks. Catchy hooks.
Yeah. Y 'all were like almost like a classic
rock. A little bit of a classic rock. Yeah, kind
of band. But like with a modern sound. Yeah,
yeah. But guitar solos were important. Drum,
like you guys were, I think, I think you guys
were all, for the most part, a little bit older
than some of these other guys in the band. So
it felt to me like y 'all were like the musical
leaders. We were a little more musician -y. That's
what I mean. Y 'all were like the band that was
like full of real musicians. And not to say these
guys weren't. But I get what you're saying. But
we were all, A little older. Seasoned. And had
played in a bunch of other bands. And some of
y 'all had played together before. Sure. And
you and Phil had been playing for years. Forever.
With breaks. And Ben was a poet. Yeah. And that,
I think, all of those things put together, I
think, elevated y 'all in the eyes of the scene
to the other bands. And this is just my perspective
as a kid back then. Which I don't have much of,
so go. It was like they all kind of looked up
to y 'all. Okay, I didn't know. Not like in a
commercially successful way. Right, yeah, yeah.
These guys know what the fuck they're doing.
Huh, that's interesting. In a lot of different
ways. Yeah, I didn't know that. I really didn't.
Yeah, I really didn't know that. Dan still is
like very melodic. Anyway, there was no unified
sound. No, and that was what was so interesting.
It wasn't a Tallahassee sound. It was all these
different things. It was just more about that
there was a scene and that I remember being sometimes
with, I don't want to name too many names just
because my memory is as bad as it is, but I remember
being at Floyd's for something and being with
a couple of label guys and then looking around
at the crowd and going, whoa, people are showing
up for this. And I'm like, yeah, people show
up for this. And they were like very impressed
by that because a lot of times record label guys
are, enthralled with the idea of shooting fish
in a barrel and they're like oh people actually
like this they're showing up for this and that
was very impressive to them not the bands it
was interesting because we used to trade shows
with bands in like orlando and all over and and
you really wouldn't get the crowds like you were
getting at floyd's people other places were doing
okay but you'd trade shows with them and you'd
be like oh okay 150 people whatever There was
something going on here. Yeah. You know? No,
there really was. Because I remember we would
trade, y 'all would trade shows with bands in
Gainesville a lot. Yeah, Gainesville. And Orlando.
And I would go, I would ride with y 'all to those
shows. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they would
always be kind of disappointing. Yeah. In the
sense that, yeah, there'd be like 150 people.
But it would be like, this band, if this is the
biggest band in this scene or whatever. Right,
right. Wow, like, we really did have something
pretty unique going on. I remember a show at
the Blowhole, which was, like, the back room
of the Purple Porpoise in Gainesville. And the
sound guy there was, like, one of the coolest
motherfuckers we'd ever met. Oh, yeah, dude.
Yeah, what was that guy's name? Doesn't matter,
go on. But there was maybe 30 people there that
night. Yeah. It was weird. That was usual. And
then I think we found out there was, like, a
big show across the street or down the road.
But still, like, it just... Nobody acted like
it was weird but us. Nobody came out. Presence
worked Gainesville to the point that they would
blow it up, but they were blowing it up for Presence.
It wasn't like the show trading thing where you're
opening for the big band and it was just on their
own. Presence really, they were a band for a
long time before they got there. I think they
were maybe the band that had been around the
longest. out of that group. Oh, definitely. Definitely.
I think I had two or three records. I played
with them in a totally different band, although
Phil was in it. And we split a bill with them
at whatever that weird venue on FSU campus was.
Not Potbelly's, but the candy store or something.
Sweet Shop. Sweet Shop. I remember that show.
Yeah, and it was Us and Presents. I hit my head
on one of the TVs. And Fetch. Oh, and Fetch.
Weird. Okay. Yeah, no, I remember that show.
Yeah, I yeah, that was a yeah. So that was had
to have been 96, 97. So Presence had been at
it for at least five years before things started
going great for them. But yeah, there was just
a thing going on where all these completely different
bands could just be in the same scene. So let's
back up for a second. You started naming some
of the earlier bands that you recorded. Let's
just go through the list. How many of these bands
did you either produce or engineer? I won't remember
a lot of them, and I'll apologize because I was
doing a lot. I remember you were doing five or
six records at the same time. Sometimes, yeah.
And I worked at such a pace back then. I was
often working 12, 16 hours a day. all the time
in the studio i don't think you slept not much
not much i actually had a period there where
i didn't sleep i only napped i would just go
until i needed to nap and i would just go lay
down for an hour and then you'd pop out to floyd's
for an hour or two and see whatever was going
on there and then head back to the studio yeah
yeah and anyway what So very early stuff I did,
there was a band that I remember because the
songwriting was so good. If you can find it,
I will not stand behind the recording because
I didn't know what I was doing yet. But the songs
are amazing. There's a band called Miss July.
Oh, yeah. I remember that band. Yeah. Just amazing
songs. Campbell Austin. I think I have those
records. Oh, dude. I don't want to hear it. No,
but it would be cool to probably look at them.
I don't want to hear it because... The recording's
probably not good. Yeah, the Tatas. There were
a handful of these bands that I started early
on. And then when I started doing... You loved
the Tatas back in the day. I really did. I remember
you telling me how great they were. I thought
they were amazing. Another recording, I viscerally
remember what I did wrong on. That's how we get
better, though. That's how you get better. And
that's why I was trying to do it so often. Because
either John or Terry said to me, like, you got
to make 30 records before they start sounding
good. Somebody told me that. And I had that number
in my head that I just need to keep grinding
these things out. But to get into the earlier,
the later stuff, the first big break I got, and
I don't remember what the circumstances was,
but DJ from Presence knew that I was producing.
And I hadn't done a project that big or that
was supposed to be that mainstream yet. But he
asked me to produce When the Smoke Clears. Yeah.
And I had to borrow a bunch of gear to do it,
to record the drums and stuff. And thanks to
Rob Gilmore and Terry Clark. And I think Terry
Clark drum teched that, which was a big help.
And yeah, so I did that When the Smoke Clears.
And we did that record really fast because I'll
give presents. a lot of credit those guys rehearsed
so doing that record was actually really easy
because they would just come in and they had
their parts down and their shows were so tight
too unbelievable yeah if you saw them live you
were an instant fan yeah even if you didn't really
like that kind of music yeah they just were like
so if they'd gotten the chance to get in front
of a million people they would have made a million
fans they were just that magnetic and the interplay
of the guys they had it all chemistry anyway
we did that record and i remember i think i got
800 because at this time i was doing records
for literally what you tell me what your budget
is i just want to do the record or sometimes
it was like literally my bills for this month
are 1200 or something because i was living pretty
slim but uh my bills are and i've already made
so I can do your record for $600. I just got
to cover my overhead. And so I think I got $800,
and then we had a back -end deal where I was
going to get like a dollar a record or something
that they sold. And then they got signed almost
immediately after they put that record out. I
don't remember the circumstances, but... Yeah,
it was fast. It was really fast. Within a year.
Yeah, yeah. Maybe even shorter, because I remember
they sold... They had sold... I don't know. Maybe
they sold another 800 or so. Because their first
record, because this was their second record.
It was the second record, yeah. Their first record,
I think they sold out of it. They did, yeah.
They did, and that was the big, man, if they
sell 2 ,000 of these and I get 2 ,000 bucks,
that's going to be amazing. That's where I was
at the time. But they got signed before they
did that, and I will give the label credit. They
did pay me out for the unsold. stock oh hell
yeah yeah cool and uh yeah so did those guys
and i didn't produce social burn but i was john
was lucky enough to john was lucky enough i was
lucky enough that john let me work on uh what
later became their first record just a little
bit i did some editing and stuff the major label
one or what a beautiful waste uh no the yeah
they had what a beautiful waste and then world
outside and then it was it was the major label
yeah you were an engineer on that i was an engineer
on that and i didn't we start i the stuff i worked
on they weren't officially working on the record
yet but it was stuff that later wound up on the
record right right john did half the record and
then they did a deal and then they finished the
record and i worked on the early stuff and god
i remember going to the store and buying that
album in the store and like turning, opening
it up and seeing my name on the thing. And I
was like, Oh, I made it. Really? Yeah. Yeah.
I'm in the thank yous. I'm not in the credits.
It's just like, Oh my God. You can't imagine.
Now it's so easy to see your name somewhere with
the internet and stuff. Of course, your name's
all over the place. Unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah,
exactly. But that was such a trip to be like,
Oh my gosh. And then, God, I don't know. I was
doing No Address stuff the whole time. We did
a lot of recording. You recorded a whole album
that you produced that never even got pressed,
right? Here's the story on that. Songs from a
warehouse in Orange Avenue. We did that, and
that got us signed, and we didn't release that.
Then I did Stand Still and Drake Equation. Oh,
yeah, Drake Equation. I remember those guys.
Yeah, yeah. They had some good stuff. Pierce
ended up, I think, playing with, like, Of Montreal
and stuff like that. Yeah, that's right. He did.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it was them. I always
mix up Metric and Of Montreal. It was Of Montreal.
Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not that those bands
sound similar. I think they just both have M's
in their names. But, yeah, I did. I did a ton
of stuff. You could probably remember almost
better than, but the thing with no address was,
yeah, we did that record and didn't put it out.
And then because we got signed and it was, it
was a great record, man. Oh, thank you. It really
was like from top to bottom, like great songs.
It sounded great. Yeah. And I remember, I mean,
you were obsessed with making it sound good.
Honestly, that may have been what made me realize
I did not want to be a record producer. Oh, really?
Yeah. In a way, yeah. Yeah. When I saw, especially
with the tools back then that you had to work
with, like fixing drums, for instance. Yeah,
oh, yeah. I think fixing drums was like the bane
of your existence for six months. Oh, yeah, it
took hours and days. Yeah, yeah. And I would
just... That thousand -yard stare that veterans
get when they get back. Yeah, yeah. You had that
when you would talk about drums. I bet that I
did, yeah. Because it was so manual, and if you
wanted to, when that was what records sounded
like at the time, if you wanted to add in a little
sample under the real snare, you had to go in
and manually paste that. You'd just copy and
paste, and you'd have to zoom all the way in.
paste that zoom all the way out go to the next
hit zoom all the way and it would take who knows
i would just stay up all night doing that yeah
and that was really there were a lot of things
going on but that us putting that record out
was what finally made somebody jump as far as
signing us because they were like wait we don't
want you to put that record out blah blah and
then we were we're gonna put that record out
y 'all had i think y 'all had our album we had
the art We were ready to go, and they were like,
whoa, we'll sign you. Because we were like, unless
there's a deal, we're just going to put it out.
Which is a good music business lesson. You've
got to have something that puts them in a corner
before they're going to make a decision. If they
think they've got all the time in the world,
they're just not going to make a decision. But
if we've got to do it now or not, it's like...
what made them jump. And then one thing that
we did with No Address, and it's why we did so
much recording, was you were talking about the
music business was not doing well. 2004, this
is before 2004, but we knew, so basically what
kept us on the label for the like two years before
we went and actually made a record, made the
real record, was we were kicking them demos every
month. new songs every month two three songs
fully produced demos this could go on the radio
tomorrow every month we were just kicking them
a couple new songs and that kept their interest
level peaked in in when we were seeing other
bands that we knew or hearing about other bands
on the atlantic roster getting dropped or whatever
we were like do we need to keep we need to keep
them interested if we had just gone away and
waited quietly we would have gotten dropped.
So we knew we've just got to keep cranking these
songs out. Partially, we were also just writing
songs to make sure we wrote the best one. Our
joke was we knew John Kerswig was going to produce
the record, and so our joke was, let's write
them all and let John sort them out. We were
just like, we're just going to keep going, and
we wound up writing and demoing like 90 songs.
Anyway, the reason we did let it out was because
I knew we were about to go, We were about to
go leave to do the record, and it was going to
be months and months before we got them any new
material. So I was like, dude, we need to drop
a whole album on them. That album was made expressly
for Atlantic Records to keep them interested
while we were in the studio. That's crazy. We
wrote and produced that whole album in 19 days.
And then right before we left, dropped it on
the desk. Bam, here's a whole other album. And
that's what kept them interested through the
troubles of... Because in the background, just
for everybody, this is when Warner, Elektra,
and Atlantic merge. Right. And for 24 hours,
you don't even know if your album's coming out.
You're like, weeks. I think we were. Nobody knew
anything at a certain point. Yeah. like the roster
of all three of those labels shrunk. Oh yeah.
Tremendously overnight. I'm wondering how did,
how did y 'all stay so productive through that
time? Like what was driving? Was it desperation?
Oh yeah. Yeah. That's a good question, man. It
was to me like, I guess it was several things.
I just wanted it so bad. My goal wasn't to be
a rock star. My goal was to be a rock star so
that then I could be a big deal producer. I saw
that as my stepping stone. I make this band successful
and then I can write my own ticket. So that was
my goal. I remember a conversation we had back
in the day where you're like... And I don't know
that you were talking about any one particular
record. Yeah. But you're like... you make the
record that the label wants. Right. And then
eventually you're going to get to make whatever
the fuck you want. Yeah. And I think the goal
is just to be able to get creative control. Yeah.
Get creative freedom and get in a point where,
you know, don't get me wrong. I fought with the
label over the eventual no address record. Oh
yeah. But yeah. So I was driven by that. And
then I was driven. Yes. By desperation. And then
also this was like my, got captain ahab about
it like it really became like my white whale
like i really thought ben lauren was good enough
and had enough to say that i just had to get
it out there i had to provide a launching pad
to get that out there and it really was like
a almost like a mania i was just like i was obsessed
i lost girlfriends over it i was just gonna do
anything to get there i don't think you were
the only person that felt that way yeah about
ben in particular yeah yeah i don't i i hope
not yeah i was i felt that way about about about
all of you but definitely about yes yeah there
was something and ben and i are we keep in touch
we're still buddies or whatever and i know y
'all are tight too but there was something just
Really special about his presence. Yeah. Especially
back then. In that environment, on that stage.
And we had to work on it a lot. Don't get me
wrong. We had to work on it a lot. We developed
him a lot. But his lyrics. Oh, yeah, absolutely.
And my attitude was always like, hey. What I'm
really excited about is where is this three records
down the road? Like maybe this is cool and it's
cool enough for now that we can get to the next
thing. But if we keep doing this, I really think
what something crazy special is going to happen.
And so that was always my view. And we'd write
stuff and you'd be like, okay, this is good.
Fine. It's good enough. let's get to the next
one. Let's get to the next one. But also if you
take like the early stuff and the later stuff,
like you had evidence to suggest that you were
right. I think I was. Yeah. Like, yeah. Y 'all,
you guys progressed in a way that I think that,
and I think this is what I was talking about
earlier where the other bands looked up to you.
I don't think any band in Tallahassee grew as
much as a band than y 'all did. That's super
nice to say, but that is one of the things I
like the most about that band is it was evolving
and it was constantly changing. And we had a
lot of tricks in our pocket. And that was one
of the advantages of that band was you did have
five killers, each in their own way. Sure, yeah.
It was just... Randy was... monster drummer fucking
rock star monster yeah yeah you know like the
whole nine yards still probably other than barry
from shinedown probably the best drummer i've
ever actually made music played with yeah i'd
still and i think and i put him yo drummer now
i think that's put him neck and neck with i he's
not somebody i've kept up with yeah but i think
at least for a long time he well he toured he
toured with He toured with Pat Travers. Oh, wow.
Boom Boom, Out Goes the Lights. He toured with
him for five years after No Address. A band called
Carolina Liar. They had some big MTV hit. Yeah,
he toured for years after No Address. Completely
pro drummer. But yeah, I loved it. The band evolved.
Phil's harmonies were always just so fucking
gold, man. Anyway. And his guitar tones. Yeah,
yeah. He's not a shred -em -up guitar player,
but he thinks outside the box and he'll come
up with parts that work, but no one else would
have thought of that. And then his tones are
just still even... We jammed recently, a year
or two ago, and just, man, that guy, he just
plugs in a guitar and plays an A chord and you're
just like, ugh. And Bill always, dude, Bill just
was always in the fucking pocket, man. Another
guy who was never playing what you would expect.
Like, sometimes his bass lines would be like,
dude, no one else on earth could make that bass
line work. Like, it is totally in the pocket.
It's not poking out. It's the perfect part for
the song, but no one else would have thought
to play that. That's a weird thing to play, but
it works. I would say more than anybody, Bill
was like... why Noah Dress sounded different.
Because he was so not a standard rock bass player.
That's interesting, yeah. Because he was so influenced
by the Beatles and Zeppelin and this older school
of bass playing that was more moving around and
more melodic and more kind of arpeggios and stuff.
And it's why Noah Dress sounded... a little different
and funky and weird was because he wasn't always
just doing the, which I love that kind of bass
playing. I feel like the only other band that
was doing that kind of stuff in the nineties,
like other than Primus or something. Yeah. Cracker.
Cracker. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I just had his
bass player on. Oh, awesome. I'll have to watch
that. Yeah. Or the way that. What's his name
from Stone's Hill Pilots? Rob DeLeo. Yeah, Rob.
Yeah. He was another bass player that was just
playing like James Jamerson, Motown bass lines
over rock stuff, under rock stuff. And it made
the band sound really different. And I think
Bill really was the reason No Address always
had that like left of center sound was the bass
was just doing something that you were like,
huh? Even more than like Ben's vocals or whatever,
like Bill's bass playing is really what made
that band sound the way it did. And Ben's vocals,
sometimes he would sound like Jeff Tweedy, and
sometimes he would sound like Kurt Cobain. He
was really versatile and emotional. And dude,
I'll tell you, one of those, I feel like occasionally
I can do it. We met non -musically, and then
anyway, I was like, yeah, I'll jam with you.
And then the first second I heard him sing, I
was like, we got to get you a band. Just it's
such a I'm a sucker for those unique voices where
you're just like, oh, maybe you don't sound like
a good singer. I'm not saying Ben doesn't sound
like a good singer, but you sound like immediately
recognizable. Yeah. The Tom Waits of the world
and stuff like that. I'm immediately like, oh,
I love that voice that you're like. Whatever
it is, I know exactly who that is immediately.
It's not like a nice, smooth, hey, you're a great
singer, but that could be any one of six people.
But no, that's the only guy that sounds like
that. And you just don't hear it that often.
But yeah, I love it. But yeah, going full circle,
that's what we did was just write and write and
demo and demo. And that's what kept us on the
label, and that's what got us to the record as
the record industry was imploding. It sounds
like it also is what kept you sane. Yeah, in
some degree. Yeah, yeah. And I would definitely
say, to be fair, and I had to deal with this
later in life, I was absolutely, for a while
there, a workaholic. I was using that to deal
with... all of my feelings and all the things
that were going on in my life yeah i could just
go in the studio and focus on that and not have
to live a real life and be an adult or deal with
past pains and traumas and stuff that i'd still
not dealt with so for a long time there i was
absolutely a workaholic like i was definitely
using that i think back it was almost like a
compulsion like it was yeah Like you would be
out and like, as soon as we're obligations at
a show were over, like you were, I remember we
did Albany one time and you were like riding
back that night after the show from Albany. And
I was like, yeah, I think I better. I like, I'm,
it was just like one of those nights or something,
just something. And I feel like there was some
things that ended up happening that night that
it was good that I left. weird whatever young
i was still pretty young and so i rode back with
you but you just you literally were just going
like you weren't you were just going back to
work on record yeah yeah it was was how i was
dealing with everything in my life and like i
said i had to then later figure it all out as
a somewhat normal person but that was how i was
just doesn't matter doesn't matter doesn't matter
gotta get back to the studio got the records
matter doesn't matter doesn't matter girl breaks
up with you doesn't matter gotta keep making
records just that was how i was dealing with
life and i and honestly like past trauma and
stuff from like high school and stuff that i
hadn't dealt with yeah i was just shoving it
down with pro tools you know what i mean it just
i think there was this Just speaking of, like,
this is just something I've thought of recently.
Speaking of, like, high school trauma, like,
I didn't really go to high school. Yeah, I kind
of remember that. And I think when I met y 'all,
I was in middle school. Oh, my God. Yeah. But
you'd think that the kid hanging out with the
bands and going to bars and stuff and clubs would,
like. Like other people would think that was
cool. Right. But no, they fucking hated me. Cause
it's like anything that they can find to pick
on you about, they're going to pick on you about.
I like, I feel like I probably like people would
hate the bands I was hanging out with just because.
Yeah. You know what I mean? But I guess my point
is, is it like the only place I felt like I belonged.
Right. Was. at your studio, at Floyd's, at the
warehouse on Orange Avenue. Yeah. That was home
to me. That was where I fit in. Yeah. And I didn't
even feel all that comfortable around the other
bands, at least in a hanging out sense. When
it was in a controlled environment, when it was
in a recording studio, and I was in charge of
it, Adrian and I, my partner Adrian, we often
talk about... That's one of the reasons that,
not the only reason, but it's one of the reasons
that performers sometimes perform. And you, as
a performer, a comedian, you might know what
I'm saying. Why we want to perform and why we
love performing is that as introverts and uncomfortable
people, it's a social interaction that A, has
a defined time, and B, I am in control of...
The social interactions. Yeah, there's rules,
right? So it's not just like randomly going into
a room full of people. It's like we know when
it starts, we know when it ends, and there's
rules for how it goes, and I'm in control of
the situation. Not like I need to be in control,
but what's important is I'm running what's going
on in this social interaction as the performer.
And so that's one of the things that draws us
to performing. And I'll tell you, I don't care
how many people there are in a crowd. I'm way
more comfortable on stage than I am chit -chatting
at a table with some people. You know what I
mean? I'm way more comfortable with that. And
I would say, as a comedian, yes, I agree 100%.
As a fan, though, I also agree. Oh, really? Yeah.
it's different when you're actually friends with
the guy's plan or whatever but i don't really
want to i talk to people that i love and respect
on this podcast all the time but it's not because
i'm like oh my god i can't wait to meet them
or to talk like i'd almost rather not you're
right yeah it's weird but i think it's important
to talk to i think that there i do it for other
reasons but If I don't have, yeah, I don't really
want to talk to the guy whose songs I love my
whole life. And I'll go say hi and get him to
sign my poster after the show, but I don't want
to go hang out with him. Yeah. Like that might,
that's, I feel like it's too much for both of
us. Yeah. I, dude, I, this gets thrown around
a lot, but I think in my case it's true. I have
a ton of imposter syndrome. So that makes it
hard for me to hang out with other dudes. And
I never feel like I'm the cool guy. Everybody
seems cooler to me than me. You know what I mean?
And whether or not that's true, I know that doesn't
matter. Like, that's a dumb way to think. But
nonetheless, especially when I was younger, I
definitely felt a lot of that. And I was like,
so even, and I love all those guys. And I wish
I would have spent more time hanging out with
them. But I just always felt. These are the actual
cool kids, and I'd love to get back to my little
cave because I don't necessarily belong around
these guys. On one hand, you're like, I do. It's
so funny. I'm very two sides of a coin. I think
we all felt that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's
what united us in a way. Maybe so, yeah, yeah.
It's like none of us really felt like we belonged.
And I think there's exceptions to that within
the scene or whatever. Sure. when you're talking
about so i've talked about this a lot here where
i i think like comedians and musicians are cut
from the same cloth like 100 yeah yeah and i
even tell a joke that like all comedians wish
they were rock stars yeah and most rock stars
wish they were funny yeah comedians yeah yeah
shane moss was the exception he was and i was
like yeah you can tell you don't want to be a
rock star but i think that there there's a lot
of truth to what you're saying but i think That's
part of why, especially comics and musicians
have always run together anyway. But I think
that's why. And I think it's partially why, like
the feeling that you're talking about is like
the thing that made us all be where we were when
we were like. Yeah. And that's part, that was
part of the drive too, is if I can, and it wouldn't
have helped. because I felt like I belonged more
with y 'all than I did at high school at least
but there was also I'm wondering something you
said I'm wondering if for me it was like I'm
gonna hang out with these people that are clearly
cooler than me yeah so then I never have to there's
I'm like it's not like I'm like competing oh
the spotlight's not on you yeah like I don't
have to yeah hide in the shadows I I bet that
was part of it I think to a degree I and also
I just fucking love the show. I do too, man.
I just love the thing, man. Yeah, which I guess,
and I love the show. The buzz. I do love the
show. And really, it's turned out later in life
that I found out I'm addicted to performing.
I do need to perform. Not really for the fans.
It's really about the high I get from doing it.
And I need it. Adrian and I will talk about sometimes
around the holidays, not this year, I have to
run home and do a couple of shows, but around
the holidays when we might get a month, maybe
more with no shows, cause it's just the holidays
and whatever. And you start getting irritable
and depressed and we'll be like, why do we feel
so bad? And it's, oh yeah, we haven't played
a show in six weeks. Yeah. And it's just like,
cause it. I don't know, it cleans you out, and
you just go for it as hard as you can. Yeah,
so I haven't told you this, and I can't believe
I almost waited this long to say. Adrian and
I are writing a book about stage performance.
Oh, wow. Oh, yeah. It's going to be called A
Show with a Capital S because we were talking
about you go see people play music. And that's
cool. And they play music for a set amount of
time. But it's not a show. And there's something
about a show. And it's about... Look at all the
boilerplate stuff, like the technique of how
you move on stage and the technique of how you
block and you move around stage with your other
people. And I've coached stage performance for
years now. And we've developed a system for a
lot of things. But it's also just about... the
why of why we perform, like what's the drive
and finding the why. And the central thing we
found in the book, and I'm sure you get this
as a performer, there's your sweet spot or where
it works. The spot where it works is where what
the audience wants and what you want as a performer
lock in together, where you find that place where
you meet, where what the audience wants out of
you and what you want to do intersect. that's
where that's what a great performance is a great
room is have you ever performed solo in any capacity
no no it just dawned on me that i'm like i'm
not sure like when you would have it's just not
no i never have i'm do you think you would want
if there was a reason for you let's assume that
there was like a reason for you to i it might
come up and i might do it but I'm so interested
in the interaction with band members. And I'm
a side guy. I always wanted to be a side guy.
That's when I figured out that the intro to Walk
This Way was the side guy. I was like, cool,
that's who I want to be. Or when I saw a picture
of the Rolling Stones and was like, Mick, and
oh man, he's super cool. And then wait, who's
this guy to the left? That's the guy. That's
the guy. And I always wanted to be that guy.
And I've always... specialized in supporting
singers that's what I do as a guitar player is
I support singers and that's what I base all
my decisions on and so it would be boring to
me I've definitely done like duo stuff like Adrian
and I did duo stuff but you don't feel like you're
ever working like like insecure about the idea
though no no no artistically it would be fine
not interested I'm just not interested I'm interested
in the interplay I'm interested in I've talked
to some song like songwriters yeah you have reasons
to play solo yeah they compare it like it's like
the to them it's like the closest thing they've
done to stand up oh yeah we're performing all
by themselves but it's terrifying to them whereas
if they're playing with a band those are very
different things oh they're very different they're
playing with a band then it's like they have
their security blanket yeah and they play solo
and it's like the hardest thing they can possibly
do yeah and i'm just even like this I like back
and forth. The collaboration is what's inspiring
to me. And even as a songwriter, like I am a
songwriter, I wouldn't write a song by myself
for myself. Yeah, you probably saw there were
some early episodes where it was just me talking
about a topic. I've stopped doing that here.
Which you can do it if you needed to put it.
Right, but I might just move it to its own podcast,
I think. Yeah, no, the collaboration, the back
and forth, it's way more interesting. It's way
more interesting. And that's what I always, and
I'm always like a de facto, I shouldn't say this,
it sounds cocky to say, I wouldn't say I'm a
band leader, but I like a little bit like running
the band from stage. Or a lot of times, especially
in the early days of the tribute band I play
with, the Petty Nicks experience. Adrian calls
it sheepdogging because often I'll be moving
around the stage and watching for people spacing
out or losing their energy or whatever. And I'll
go over and, hey, get it up, buddy, get it up.
Or I love to stomp the stage right by somebody.
If you especially wake them up, wake them up,
especially on a wood stage or a metal stage,
you can get their jaw to clack. Like if you do
it, if you just wait and stop, just it's almost
like double bouncing somebody on a trampoline
when you're a kid because the stage has a little
bit of give and you could just pop them in their
jaw click. And they're like, yeah, you're like,
yeah, stop slacking off. And so that's like super.
I don't know. That kind of thing is what inspires
me to do it. And I love the crowd thing, but
it's not about the adulation of the crowd. If
anything, what I love with a crowd, and this
I'm sure has happened to you, there's that moment
where a room full of people, however many people,
locks into being a crowd. Yeah. And then now
we've got a... Not we've got them, but... We're
like a new thing. And it includes you as the
performer. I like to say this sounds really...
I like to say... There's actually, when things
are working right, there's an illusion that the
performer and the audience are two separate things.
That's almost an illusion. It's everybody in
the same room vibing together when it's working.
It's the crowd's giving you energy. You're giving
it back to the crowd and amping them up. Then
that energy is amping you up and it's this circular.
That's super true for stand -up for me because
if the crowd's not into it. I'm just like, okay,
I just want to get through my time. Yeah. And
then I'm not as electric. I'm not as... And if
they're not laughing, then my confidence goes
down. Yeah, you can't... So many factors go into
it. And you can't blame them. No. Because it's
like a negative feedback loop. And the loop goes
negative. And you know what? It can be so many
other factors that aren't you. Like I tell people
all the time, if you ever get booed, which...
as a performer, will almost never happen. Not
as a comedian. As a comedian, yeah, I'm sure.
But we love it. Yeah, I'm sure it's still, you're
getting a reaction. So often when a crowd isn't
into it, it's factors that aren't you. It's like
you were doomed before you went up there. Yeah.
It's too hot. It's too cold. The wait staff is
too slow. Well, and one of the biggest things
a comic can do is figure that out before they
go on stage, whatever that problem is. and make
fun of that problem. Oh, yeah. And then if you
do that, then it's like you've cracked the code
of the room. Yeah. But if you, as a band, your
songs aren't made for making fun of the fucking
tacos or whatever people are upset about. But
we do that, too, because we'll be like, for example,
there was a show recently. It doesn't matter
where it was. They were sitting backstage, and
the crowd was way too chatty and loud. They were
too chatty and too loud, and we knew we need
to go out there and hit them hard and shut them
up as soon as possible so they will start paying
attention to the show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're
in a fine mood, but they're not in a... We're
going to need to slap them across the face. They're
there to see each other, not us. Yeah, and we
need to get them focused. Not because we need
the attention or whatever, but... What's going
to make the show good is getting these guys to,
hey, this is what's going on. Let's change the
mood of the room. And so we know going on stage,
instead of the little ramp up thing we might
do energy wise, we need to pop them right out
of the gate. And some of that is not changing
songs. It's just your attitude going on stage.
It's just the attitude of performing. We're going
to hit them with end of show energy from the
first song. And then once you got it, you can
back down and start doing the thing. But you
just know you got to. Or, hey, these guys are
a little lethargic. Don't worry about putting
a lot of energy into it for the first 30 minutes.
They're going to warm up. They're just not even
close to warmed up. Don't worry about hitting
it hard. Let them just settle in and we'll slowly
ramp it. So over the years, I think I've just
gotten better. I and Adrian and the rest of the
guys have gotten better at reading crowds in
that way. Or, man, sometimes you take your foot
off the gas because you're just like, okay, these
guys are officially too drunk at this point.
They are no longer paying attention. We could
be playing anything at this point. They're still
dancing or they're still up at the front and
they're still whatever. They're not scanning
anything that's going on. So just let's just...
Cowboy Mouth is one of the bands that I've...
seen never give up on a crowd yeah like always
fucking win yeah and they're just one of the
few that can do it i i dude i sometimes the thing
that gets me is i'm always like searching with
the crowd in a way to to find out where they
are and then try to meet them there and when
a crowd gets too drunk i can no longer find them
yeah it's just chaos coming back at me like i'm
just And that's fine. And I'm glad they're having
a good time. And it's not like I stopped trying
or stopped playing hard, but it's like, I'm just
like, okay, I can no longer find these guys and
meet them. It's just, I don't know where they're
at and that, and I don't mind it or anything,
but you just start realizing those things where
you're like, okay, that's where they're at. Let's
give them the drunk version of this. This isn't
Adrian, for example, has a great story because
it's a petty Knicks band. We, of course, do Landslide,
and she has this really great story that she'll
tell right before that song. But when a crowd
is in a certain place, she'll cut it short and
just go, this is Landslide. Because they are
not in a mood. They're not going to hear it.
Or maybe they're not in a mood to hear it. Right.
And you just have to read. I'm sure as a comic.
Yeah, no, there's times where I'm like, all right,
I'm going to get straight to the punchline of
this long joke. Yeah, because this is. And move
on to. this like crowd pleaser that things are
moving too fast and I just need to get to it.
I just need to get to it. Yeah. Having that flexibility
is I think one of the, it's probably something
you talk about in your book. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah. I want to shift just a little bit because,
Oh, anything you want to get to. I want to, I
want to talk about what you're talking about,
but compared to 20 years ago, how have crowds
changed? But also the other aspect of it is like,
What were some of the challenges you faced in
touring back then that don't exist now? What
are some of the new challenges now? But also,
how have crowds changed over the last 25 years?
I would argue that other than... When I think
about it, that's not true. I think attention
span is way down. I think people are often focused
on... capturing video and pictures and stuff
so you get a fair amount of the crowd who's not
present in a certain sense because they're spending
their time filming i guess for later consumption
i'm always like where do these videos go you
know what i mean you never see them later don't
know yeah it's i i actually really appreciate
it when bands in comics tell people like no no
filming i and for or we'll give you you can film
us the last Or the first couple songs or whatever,
and then we're done. Which I had the funniest
thing. We were playing this venue that we should
not have been playing with Petty Nicks. It was
just not a great setup for us. More of a bar
than a whatever. And there were these three guys
that were all filming the whole time. And then
every time it would come to a guitar solo, which
is my part, they would... stop the video and
put their phones down and wait patiently for
the guitar solo to get over and then they would
start filming again and they did that to me they
did that to me for three hours three hours every
time i'm just like go home and edit like why
do you have to like i don't really care you know
what i mean i don't care but i'm wondering if
they were just fucking with you it was almost
like they were because they were right on my
side of the stage i was clearly in frame yeah
and i was just like they have these things called
tripods too like If somebody's going to film
a whole show, they can just put it on a tripod
and have fun. Yeah, I don't know. Or whatever,
yeah. That attention level has changed. I think
once you get a show past a certain point, it's
the same as it was. But I think attention spans
are down. People are content fatigued. So in
some ways, you've got to be a little more snappier
than you used to. You used to be able to get
away with a little more wandering of a show.
Now I feel like it does need to be a little snappier,
but not wildly different. And once you get it
past a certain point, yeah, it's pretty much
the same. The same rules always apply, probably
applied back in as long as there's a group of
people. The same, a group of people is a group
of people. And it hasn't changed in time. And
people are people. Yeah. I mean, we, and touring
was weird because there were times when We were
in front of crowds that we should not have been
in front of. You're talking about with no address?
With no address. When we were touring, we were
opening for bands that we should not have been
opening for. I was there the day y 'all met Three
Doors Down and ended up going on tour with them.
And I always thought that was a weird pairing.
I'm sure it was great, but it was also... I'm
sure that there were times... That was a great
pairing because we had enough classic rock to
us. There was a little point of overlap for Three
Doors fans and us. And then you opened for Shinedown
for a while. We did. And that was actually pretty
good. Because again, they're a little, they're
hard rock and we're not. And I feel like y 'all
had gotten a little heavier by then too. The
label forced us to do that. For whatever reason.
Yeah, yeah. But we had, but those guys still,
the Shinedown fans still liked guitar solos and
they were a little Southern rock. When they did
the Simple Man thing, so that drew in a crowd.
That's right, yeah. Yeah. We were fine with them,
but there were a couple other bands that were
maybe heavier and harder. Maybe some festival
shows that were probably weird. Festival shows.
I forget what. The Jacksonville show, the festival
that I saw was great. Yeah. But I can imagine
others not being great. There was a couple that,
and I can't remember what the band was, but it
was a heavier band. It's not really important.
It's not really important. But we had 60 dates
with them, and it was not going well, and we
just figured out what we need to do to not get
booed is hit that stage. I feel like I'm saying
the same thing again, but we had to hit the stage
with so much energy and so much ferocious energy
that we're going to go, nope, nope. You might
not like it. You may not like it, but you're
going to sit there quietly and take it. And that
was the only way to turn that crowd because they
wanted that much heavier band and maybe breaking
band. No, I forget. Whatever. It doesn't matter.
And we were like, our attitude was like, we're
just going to like literally try to scare this
crowd with the energy level. Like we don't have
it in the music. We don't, our music isn't that
kind of angry. It has some anger, but. Sure.
It wasn't that kind of thing. But energy wise,
we're going to try to like. And there's a video
on YouTube that somebody I didn't know existed,
but somebody else was like, oh, I saw this video
and I watched it. And there there are they're
panning the crowd and there's a row of girls
that are just like they're like not they're just
like mouth open. What the fuck is this? And that
was what we were like. We got to get them to
what the fuck is this? Just so they don't turn
on us. And it just was like, that was one of
those stage kind of experiences of going, oh,
this is what we have to do with this crowd. And
I bet with comedy, it's the same thing. If it's
a rule, you got to do something to get them on
your side or at least get them. I'm sure knowing,
like you said, watching the crowd ahead of time
and being like, this is what I'm going to need
to do with these guys. And then I can get into
my normal. I think another thing that comics
can do that is different. than what bands can
do because a joke lasts 10 seconds if right you're
not committed for three minutes to some but you
can throw a joke out there that's on the darker
side right or on the sillier side or like wherever
and see if it starts to work and then if it doesn't
like you right that's when that's when you start
to see and i haven't ever had to i haven't ever
really had this experience but that's when you
start to see comics like almost try to make the
crowd angry because it's like your guys aren't
even here to play ball yeah and yeah and i gotta
yeah and it it's again it's never an ego thing
you're just trying to do the best show you can
do and sometimes it yeah no i think any seasoned
performer has had their ego killed enough yeah
that then it stops being about that it's not
about that it's just i just want to do a good
job and sometimes i'm gonna have to like work
with you to let me do a good job because ultimately
what i want is for you to have enjoyed the show
what are some of the logistical things that are
different that were there was even though things
had crashed there was a lot more money in it
and there was a lot more money in it touring
was still very profitable back yes i think it's
like album sales weren't but but i think it still
is but not It still is, like, in the percentage
of what people make. Sure. There's just so many
more hands in the pocket now. Yeah, that's the
360 deals and everything. I think that's really
changed. Yeah, venues taking cuts of merch. I
feel like that never really happened. No. Even
Floyd's, like, when they would provide a house
merch guy, it was a flat fee. It wasn't a percent.
Yeah. It would be like, you guys pay the merch
dude $100, and we provide him. Yeah. You know
what I mean? And merch was definitely a big deal
for us. But yeah, I don't, it just is the same
thing. I think if anything, like it's just shrunk
a little bit and routing's gotten probably tighter.
Like sometimes they used to just, hey, you got
a show in Orlando and then you got a show in
Cleveland. And now people don't do the zigzaggy
stuff. We'd usually be in a decent route, but
then we'd, they'd be like, oh, there's a good
opportunity. We're going to send you all the
way over here. And I don't think people do that
nearly as much. And I think even more, it was
always about the super fan, right? The street
team. But even more now, I think it's really
become about the super fans. Yeah. Not just the
casual. A friend of mine plays in a band called
Murder by Death. Yeah, I know that band. Yeah,
he's the bass player in that band. And we played
with him. for a long time in Denver before he
got that gig. And they may not, they sell out
everywhere they go. Depending on the city, that
might be 300 people, that might be 2 ,000 people.
But we've been to a couple of the shows and the
armloads of merch people carrying out of there.
And it's not that they're a famous band, but
if you know that band, they're very likely your
favorite band. Yeah, for sure. The Drive -By
Truckers, I think, are very similar. All of them.
The people that love that band, that's their
favorite band. We buy everything. We buy all
the reissues. And they know if they make a record,
they can almost, to a pretty exact point, know
how many they need to make. Or at least a minimum.
A minimum, yeah. That's what I mean, the first
run. And so it's just like... they've got super
fans. And that super fan who is actually going
to follow you and actually going to buy your
records and buy the vinyl and all that stuff,
like, those are gold compared to the casual person
who's, oh, yeah, I've heard of those bands. Let's
go. Maybe we'll go to the thing. And those guys
aren't going to follow you later. Or if they
do, it's just going to be Spotify. I think those
people are fewer and further between than they're
used to. I think they are. But I think the...
And more... Compartmentalized. Yeah. Or a band
gets a big pop of popularity. And I love Wet
Leg. Yeah, yeah. I love them, and I really respect
what they've done and how they've gotten. But
right now, they're in this bubble of popularity
where they're just doing these rooms. And the
hope is that maybe we won't always be in these
rooms, but when we shrink down to these rooms...
those super fans will still be filling up those
smaller rooms. I think about King Gizzard and
the Wizard Lizard. Yeah, right. A similar thing
happened to them. Similar thing. And actually,
I know this for a fact because a bunch of my
friends in Denver were going to Red Rocks to
see them, and they weren't necessarily fans before.
They were just like, oh, I've heard about this
band. And then, awesome, friends of theirs were
like word of mouth. Oh, you've got to come to
this show. They're so good. But yeah, they're
just having this moment. But really... Like I
said, it was always about the super fan because
it used to be that the super fan is who was doing
the word of mouth stuff to get you all of your
fans, street teams, passing out flyers, that
kind of thing. Now the super fan is that's your
most coveted market. But I think the opposite
is true for what you're doing, what a lot of
these bands that are coming back. Here's the
thing. You have so many bands coming back and
touring that were both big in the 90s and 2000s,
but then you also still have... Yeah, 80s bands.
The Chicagos and the... Yeah, yeah. All the...
Yeah. Where they barely have any of their original
memory, they might as well be a tribute act.
Yeah. But those aren't the super fans. Those
are the casual, the person that remembers two
or three of their songs from back in the day.
And I feel like that's probably true for Petty
Nick's experience too, right? Yeah. It is a tribute
band. Right. So it's very easy because people
do remember all those songs and they are coming
for those songs. The band on its own is lucky
to benefit from a lot of word of mouth. People
are bringing people to the show. And one thing...
And just for context, we usually sell between,
say, 300 and 600 tickets. That's killer. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. And we usually don't advertise. Occasionally
we will if tickets are looking a little slow,
maybe throw up a Facebook ad. But we're very
lucky to benefit from that word of mouth where
people are like, oh, you've got to see this show.
And we always ask, Adrian always asks the crowd
to cheer, who's seen us before? And it'll be
about... 50 50 a little less oddly enough it'll
be maybe yeah it'll be about 50 50 and so like
the interesting thing is that new people are
still coming and right yeah that's kind of what
i mean yeah it's like y 'all don't have the super
fan you might have petty super fans we have come
we have there are a number of people that definitely
come to every show. We're getting to the point
where there's people that have seen... And see,
that's just something I wasn't aware of with
any kind of a tribute band. Yeah, yeah. I can
imagine it with Zappa Plays Zappa or something
like that, but I... Yeah, that's interesting.
I... It's intimidating in a weird way. I don't
know if you've run into this, but it's great
that we have people who've seen us maybe 30 times,
maybe more. But, like, in some ways, they're
in the crowd right and you're going i feel a
little awkward that this is basically the same
show right that you've seen over and over i think
it's worse for comics yeah really yeah because
like they know my like i'll they know my punch
lines and shit and i've always argued we worry
about it as musicians but i don't think other
than some very savvy music fans no one remembers
setlist order You know what I mean? They just
like the songs. They'd have to see a lot of shows
before they went, oh, they're playing that in
order. My favorite band never uses a set list.
Oh, really? Not ever. Yeah. They did. So they
did the Southern Rock Opera Revisited Tour. Okay.
And that was, they managed to make using a set
list still new because they never had. Oh, that's
really cool. So, like, I saw three shows on that
tour. Yeah. Four. But that was the first time
I'd ever seen them play the same four shows,
like the same show twice, period, like ever.
That's pretty awesome. I wish we could do that.
It's just a different thing. They tried using
a set list, and they wouldn't follow it, so they
just stopped. Yeah, they just stopped. We just
do way more of a theater show, and it is way
more of a show. Well, that was what that tour
was. It was a very theatrical thing. And I think...
The only reason I pointed that out was just because
I think it's a totally different way of operating.
Their typical shows are very organic, very raw,
very not theatrical. And that's probably the
draw. And they can go slower, probably. It's
probably fine if there are gaps in between songs.
A lot of times we find ourselves in situations
where we're banging songs pretty close together
because you've got to keep it moving. Not as
much as the old, I played in a bunch of beach
bars in Jacksonville, Jacksonville Beach and
whatever. And man, at those shows, you could
not leave dead air because the dance floor would
stop. And if the dance floor stopped, people
would start wandering out the door. I've heard
Chris Rock talk about performing like Bonnaroo.
Wow. And it's unimaginable to me. As a comic,
controlling a crowd of 80 ,000. That's insane.
I can't wrap my head around that. Not to be nitpicky
or go down a rabbit hole, but, man, I'm a huge
Nate Bargatze fan. Yeah, yeah. I saw him just
earlier this year, yeah. But not as late. One
of his specials that was recent was, like, in
front of 20 ,000 people. And, man, did I love
his earlier, smaller. And it's not anything against
Nate. It's not like his material isn't as good.
I think it stops being the thing that you're
talking about. Yeah, it stops. And he had to
slow down because you got to wait for 20 ,000
people to react to a joke. And you hear it. It
moves throughout the room. Yeah. And that's,
I love the material. Nothing against him. It's
just, it's a different animal when you're playing
to that many people. No, I noticed the same thing
when I saw him this year. Like, he wasn't playing
to the whole room. Yeah. He was just playing
to this. Yeah. This corner of. Yeah. Because
that's all he could see. That's all he could
see. That's all he can pay attention. Although
music is the same way. I've been lucky enough
to play, I don't know, 20 ,000 people. I saw
you play in front of 27 ,000 people. 27, okay.
And it's not that different than playing to 500
because that's about how many people you can
see. You know what I mean? Even if it's the daytime
and it's broad daylight, once it gets very far
back, you can't. Yeah, yeah. You know what I
mean? I don't know what those people are doing
or reacting to. I will say the first time we
walked on stage in a civic center when our song
was actually on the radio so people knew who
we were because we toured a few months and the
song wasn't out so nobody knew who we were. And
when we walked out on stage and that roar literally
scared me. It was maybe 8 ,000 or 9 ,000 people
and it was so loud that we all... jumped you
were just like oh my god granted it's a civic
center and so it's all held in and stuff it's
not like being outside but man that sound is
just it was just like oh god yeah you were like
you danger that's why people who say they would
they wish they could have seen the Beatles no
you don't yeah you wouldn't have heard a goddamn
thing you wouldn't have heard anything and that's
why they completely stopped yeah yeah so I hope
you're going to edit the crap out of this. Side
note, I didn't. Yeah. Last thing I want to ask
you, I want to give you a chance to plug all
the things that you're doing now. Yeah. I know
we're out of time here, but I just want to make
sure that... I know you play with Adrian O, Petty
Nix. There's a couple other guys that you work
with too, right? Yeah. I want to plug Eric Golden.
Eric Golden. He does classic country honky -tonk,
Bakersfield kind of stuff. We did an album last
year. He just put out a Christmas album. I didn't
work on it, but it's great. A young up -and -coming
artist, we did an EP with Lena Corrales. I would
really recommend checking her out. Very indie
rock, very 90s. And, of course, yeah, Adrian
Oh. And, yeah, those are the main things. And
do you still produce quite a bit? I still produce
quite a bit. We followed the live thread. Yeah,
no, I still produce. And I would say that's a
good part of my income is producing. And it's
slowed down with the economy and various things
going on. Not a great time to spend large chunks
of money for a lot of people. But still doing
a lot of that. And then, of course, I teach.
and coach. I do artist development, which is
basically helping artists figure out exactly
who they want to be and how to get there. And
a blanket term that covers songwriting, stage
performance, music business stuff, all those
things. So that's something I do. You might have
a new client. Okay. Yeah, we can talk about that.
Yeah. I love doing it, man. Some of it was...
Not got the idea, but some of it that I thought
thinking back, I was like, you know, what I got
from guys like Terry Clark and Steve Robertson
at Atlantic and looking back how helpful that
was to have somebody help me think so many things
through and someone who had been in the business
and think things through. And then, like I said,
learning how much. stage coaching for example
that I'd always been doing with bands without
thinking about we wouldn't talk about we would
talk about it Ben and I talked for hours and
hours all the time about everything and or with
even with Adrienne when I started playing with
her and just helping and then it's oh I should
probably be but yeah so artist development performance
high dot net there'll be links to everything
yeah yeah in the description yeah performance
high is who I work for out in Denver, and it's
mainly a vocal studio. It's a pretty premier
vocal studio. And then I do, like I said, the
artist development stuff, and I've been lucky
enough to have clients in New York and L .A.
and a few in Europe, and it's been... I really
enjoy doing it. It's one of those things where
it's... I obviously love music and the business
of making music and the business of making art,
really. And I just love talking about it and
getting to talk about it with people who are
like moving along. It's just a blast for me.
I told a client the other day, they were like,
oh, we went over time a little bit. And I was
like, dude, this is barely work for me. You know
what I mean? I love doing this so much that it
is work and whatever, but I barely. Yeah, you're
like, I have to value my time just so I can pay
my bills. But there's nothing I love talking
about more and delving into. You get stuck creatively
or stuck even mentally all the time. We've talked
about imposter syndrome, and talking that through
with people can be really helpful. Also, go get
a qualified therapist. Yeah, yeah. We're big
advocates for therapy on this podcast. Yeah,
yeah. But talking about it with just a music
dude who's been doing it forever and has probably
suffered the same problems or been around a guy
who did. It can be helpful for people. So I feel
really lucky to get to do that. Well, Justin,
I'm going to have to have you back. I feel like
we talked for two hours and barely scratched.
Barely scratches. And it's so we should just
start a podcast. We should just start a podcast.
And it's the spinoff premiere. It's great getting
to reconnect with you, too, man. I was always
we're so lucky to have you guys around. And and
honestly, you in particular really. what a great
fan does is make a band better and you've honestly
made no address better with just hanging out
and being like oh i like that one or and you
go oh cool second set of eyes on the project
so yeah it's anyway great to reconnect i hope
we yeah get to talk more and i'll be back yeah
thank you so much edit this so this isn't like
crushingly long okay that was thank Like I said,
it was great reconnecting with Justin. If you
want us to start our own podcast together, let
us know in the comments. Make sure y 'all check
out the Petty Nicks Experience. Check out their
website. Go catch one of their shows. Next week,
we got Red Padilla from Red and the Revelers.
They're my new favorite band. I saw them open
for Morris Day and the Time on New Year's Eve.
It was amazing. I've been friends with Red for
a long time, but we just met. in person when
we did this interview. So look forward to that.
I do want to remind you that I've started a Patreon
for this podcast. I do everything from start
to finish, from booking the episodes to producing
them, editing them, distributing them. And if
you're enjoying it, the Patreon is just a way
for you to support the podcast directly and help
keep it sustainable. There will be some extra
content and some bonus. footage and extra early
access to things but the main thing is just a
way to directly support us we also just hit a
thousand subscribers on youtube today so thank
you all so much tell your friends about the podcast
if you've been enjoying it