WEBVTT

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I'm an epiphany chaser. I love science books.

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A lot of people would find them boring, but yeah,

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it can be like a little boring and it can be

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a little frustrating or you're not getting it

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or whatever. And then suddenly something clicks

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and you experience that epiphany where you like

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just see something about life just completely

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differently. Welcome to Overeducated and Underemployed.

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This week we've got Shane Moss, comedian, podcaster,

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fucking hilarious dude. Really enjoyed hanging

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out with him, talking to him. He's got two new

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specials coming out. that he filmed at Meow Wolf

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in Denver, Colorado. Meow Wolf is an amazing

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art collective. Check their stuff out. His first

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of the two is out February 18th, just in a couple

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of weeks here. So check that out on his website.

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There's a link in the description of this episode.

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If it's anything like the show I saw the night

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before this interview, man, I am... Y 'all are

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in for a treat. He was so funny. And I've seen

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some clips from the special as well. It's great.

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February 18th on ShaneMoss .com. There's a link

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in the description. Check it out. This is a long

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episode of clocking over two hours. We talked

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about everything from his upbringing to... the

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Creation Museum, and about a movie that was made

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like 15 years ago called Flock of Dodos. And

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I think a combination of what Shane was talking

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about, selection bias, combined with like time,

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and I think a conscious effort for scientists

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to be better communicators over the last 15 years

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or so has made... that movie pretty much null

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and void at this point. We got into all kinds

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of stuff. I hope you really enjoy it. If you

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like the new theme song, make sure to check out

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the new single by Sloan Brothers. It's out everywhere.

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The new album, Love and Other Diagnosis, is available

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to order on vinyl on Bandcamp. There's a link

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in the description. Thanks for tuning in. We

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got a lot of really cool stuff coming up this

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season continually, so hit that subscribe button.

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I am honored to have Shane Moss on Overeducated

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and Underemployed. Hey, thanks for having me.

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Thanks for being here. I'm pumped, man. Yeah,

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this is awesome because I think we have more

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in common than I initially thought, which is

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it's like somebody like you, you do so many different

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things. You have your fingers in so many different

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areas. I do. And I like to try and diversify

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what I'm doing as well. I'm going to start with

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a question that I ask everybody on here. And

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then I'm going to do a follow -up that I do with

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comedians. But what's the first song that you

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remember loving as a kid? Oh, man. That's a good

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question. MC Hammer, Can't Touch This. Is that

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what it was? Yeah. Yeah, that was, as a kid,

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I remember loving that. And then I didn't get

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into music. love after so that was like i was

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four or five or something like that and then

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my next love was weird l oh yeah and so my parents

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didn't listen to music like they didn't have

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music on and stuff and for whatever reason like

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i didn't get music and i remember weird l's parody

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of smells like teen spirit yeah yeah when i heard

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that i was like wait, what is this real song?

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And then I listened to Nirvana for the first

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time and I was like, oh my God, that was the

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first time that I found a band that I absolutely

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loved. And yeah, that changed everything, I think.

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And then, so I was like pretty old by the time

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I like got into music at all. And then I was

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into like Soundgarden and Stone Temple Pilots

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and stuff at that time. And then I was into Nine

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Inch Nails. Because I was born in 1980. These

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are like teenage years now. And then when I got

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into psychedelics, Pink Floyd became my favorite

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band. So it was like Nirvana, Pink Floyd, and

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then just once in a while I find something that

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I really... It's so few and far between. And

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then when I find a band, I'm obsessed with them.

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So it was like Weezer was my first concert. White

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Stripes was my second big concert. White Stripes.

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I wasn't a big concert goer. And then Aesop Rock.

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Not Aesop Rocky. Not Aesop Rocky. Aesop Rock.

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is like the person who i'm absolutely just obsessed

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with his i just found out he has a new album

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out and i just started listening to it and asap's

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one of those people you gotta listen like to

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an album like 20 times and suddenly these like

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pieces start you start putting stuff together

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and his stuff's just so deep and dense and interesting

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and so intelligent and so it's just constantly

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I'm an epiphany chaser. I'll read like a lot

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of, I love science books. A lot of people would

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find them boring, but yeah, it can be like a

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little boring and it can be a little frustrating

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or you're not getting it or whatever. And then

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suddenly something clicks and you experience

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that epiphany where you like just see something

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about life just completely differently. Exactly,

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exactly. And I have those when I listen to Aesop

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Rock. I have a lot of epiphanies. And I think

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we have so much in common. It's funny. Once I

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was doing a club and someone was like, hey, you

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know who you remind me of? I do a lot of indie

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venues and stuff. Aesop Rock. Because he had

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been through there recently. Just the way you

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guys think about things. You're like really similar.

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I was like, oh, that is the best compliment you

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could have fucking given me. That's incredible.

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And they didn't even know it. They didn't even

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know it. Didn't even know it. Didn't know it.

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It was like my hero. And, and he, and, and, and

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just the weirdest. I just wrote like this a few

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months ago. I wrote like this 20 minute, like

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at least it could easily be 30, 40 minute, like

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ridiculous beast. of a bit about pinball and

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it's so stupid it's so stupid that it's so long

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and it's just i kept going and going and i like

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just that cracks me like a subject that who like

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one two jokes about pinball is the appropriate

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amount of pinball jokes so anyway i wrote all

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this and then i was listening i just discovered

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he had a new album and he has this fucking song

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about pinball on it i'm like god damn it how

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is this happening we're just on the same wavelength

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I guess we're going to be playing some pinball

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out in the arcade after this. I'm no good. I

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suck at it, but I'll play. Yeah, yeah. I love

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pinball too. I don't love pinball. I was actually

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writing a joke about how frustrating of a game

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it is. And then I just did all this deep dive

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and I found out pinball was illegal for 40 years.

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And then I, oh my God. And then I saw. like one

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of the worst, those bad movies like The Room

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or whatever where people watch them because they're

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bad. Do you know that the song Pinball Wizard

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was a musical named Tommy? Oh, I've seen Tommy.

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Yeah. It's like the worst fucking movie. Yeah,

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with Tina Turner as the acid queen. Yeah, like

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Jack Nicholson's in it. Oh, I forgot about the

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Tina Turner part. Yeah, man. That movie's fucking

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crazy. That's... That movie's so insane. It is.

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Like, musically, I think it's a lot of fun. Yeah.

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Like Elton John. Elton John as the pinball, like,

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champion that gets beaten. Oh, my God. Yeah,

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yeah. That is so stupid. That shit's crazy. So

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I just went on this stupid deep dive. Sometimes

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I love just, because a lot of my stuff is, like,

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I do a lot of, especially now that my psychedelic

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specials. are coming out I'm diving back into

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my science communication a lot more and so I'm

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collaborating with a lot of different science

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groups with some different communication projects

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and and so because of that like I'm doing for

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a comedian I'm doing like some pretty like serious

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work sometimes and so to like just sit around

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writing the dumbest jokes i've ever written about

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pinball for a while is just like scratches that

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i need to be silly too sometimes no i i definitely

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write some silly jokes and i try not to get like

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super silly it goes there but when i'm doing

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these interviews i try to be as serious and engaging

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as possible to be silly too yeah for sure but

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One thing that you said that I really relate

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to, when I was a kid, I would get into Weird

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Al's parody and then go find the original. That

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was how I would get into music a lot. Weird Al's

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amazing. I just had his guitarist for 43 years

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on this week. Oh, that's incredible. The week

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that we're talking now, not the week that this

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comes out. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, I've seen Weird

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Al. Ten times. Yeah. I saw him live, like, I

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don't know, 15 years ago or something. And I

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was like, oh, Weird Al. He's been off my radar

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in my adult life. And I was like, oh, I'll check

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that out. Saw the show. I was like, oh, my God.

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This is incredible. It's a multimedia extravaganza.

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It's so good. UHF is. Maybe my favorite comedy

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of all time is pretty close. The theater I'm

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performing at tonight, in its old location, my

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daughter and I rented out the theater and showed

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UHF for, it was like probably her 10th birthday

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or 11th birthday. That's amazing. Showed it to

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a bunch of fifth graders. They all thought it

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was hilarious, but didn't understand, like they

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didn't know. A couple of them had maybe seen

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one or two of the things he's fucking. Yeah,

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yeah. But, good God, it still killed a group

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of kids that had never, didn't really know Weird

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Al, didn't know any of the movies he was making

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fun of really at all. You get to drink from the

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fire hose! Speaking of silliness, oh, just pure

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silly. What a gem of a human being. He really,

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yeah, really, truly. I think it's also just a

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testament to how many people he's inspired to

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because you're not the first person. I guess

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the cat's going to be on the podcast this week

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because I forgot to put them on the porch. That's

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all right. That's all right with us. What's the

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cat's name again? This is Pumpkin. Pumpkin. And

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I have jokes about her. She's very insecure.

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Oh, she's cute. So, yeah, Weird Al. Yeah, we

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rented out the theater, showed it. We made Twinkie

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Wiener sandwiches. which that's some good dad

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shit they're disgusting oh yeah the most awful

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thing i've ever eaten it's part of the joke yeah

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and he went v i think that's why he went vegan

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because he but so the follow -up question i have

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uh and i usually save this only for comedians

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but what's the first joke that you remember loving

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and maybe even retelling to your family or friends

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as a kid One that immediately comes to mind is

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maybe because of the UHF reference, Emo Phillips

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joke. It was something along the lines of, I

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love to go to the park, and I can't do an Emo

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Phillips impression, and watch all the kids run

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and scream and jump around. And they don't know

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I'm shooting blanks, which is, I don't think

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you can do that joke anymore. But I remember

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that was one of the first ones when I was like

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10, 11 years old or something like that. I've

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actually seen Emo open for Weird Al twice. Oh,

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yeah, nice. And me and my daughter are going

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to meet him one night afterwards. Yeah, yeah,

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I've met Emo. He's great. Human being, yeah.

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Yeah, I've met him several times. Hilarious.

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So do you remember telling that joke to other

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people as a kid? Yeah, I do. Yeah, I remember

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that. That's interesting. Yeah, how about you?

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For me, it was who's on first? Evan Costello.

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That was... My grandfather showed it to me, and

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one of the only non -racist jokes he ever...

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yeah man it just it tickled me in all the right

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ways i yeah a friend of mine to do it read redo

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it in front of the school for a talent show and

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it was terrible but yeah yeah yeah i loved abin

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castella and not their movies but that one bit

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really And I love baseball, too, so I think that

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was part of it. You know what joke, as a kid,

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that we had that kids these days, like, I've

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asked my friends' kids if they have this joke,

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like, in their school, is the diarrhea jokes.

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Oh, like, run down the ladder? And you feel something

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splatter, diarrhea, diarrhea. So now, any time

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I meet my friends... Well, you could be making

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fun of a medical issue. Yeah, yeah. So, any time

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my friends have kids, because it's like... You

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always want to bond with your friends' kids if

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you can, but it's always like, I don't know how

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to talk to kids. You seem like you'd be the good,

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weird uncle. Yeah. Sometimes I'm like, ah. It's

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funny trying to impress kids and being like,

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I'll get socially insecure. I want to be cool.

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Come on. And so that's how I attempt to be cool.

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I try to give the youngins the diarrhea song

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to go and tell all their friends at school. Because

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kids don't have it. So they can be the ones to

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introduce it. You're going to be a hit at school.

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You're creating class clowns across the nation.

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You got to tell them every day just show up with

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a new banger. And the other kids don't know that

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these are just from the archives. Man, the internet.

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I'm shocked with the internet that the diarrhea

00:15:58.980 --> 00:16:02.419
joke has not made it. It hasn't trickled down.

00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:09.820
Sorry. I couldn't help it. I love it. So you

00:16:09.820 --> 00:16:12.419
already mentioned that your parents didn't really

00:16:12.419 --> 00:16:15.779
listen to music growing up. Were they also not

00:16:15.779 --> 00:16:19.779
really exposing you to movies or TV? What kind

00:16:19.779 --> 00:16:24.799
of upbringing did you have? I had, so my mom

00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:32.139
is just the cutest, sweetest, like, most wholesome

00:16:32.139 --> 00:16:37.480
person. A little bit to a fault. I was the first

00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:39.740
kid and a little bit, like, overprotective and

00:16:39.740 --> 00:16:43.659
stuff. As a kid, it drove me crazy. As an adult,

00:16:43.899 --> 00:16:47.860
it was nothing but pure love, and I had a very

00:16:47.860 --> 00:16:52.519
secure, I was cared for. and loved but i remember

00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:56.840
it was my mom's one of the bigger worry warts

00:16:56.840 --> 00:17:01.600
that you'll ever meet and like i i remember last

00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:04.900
time i was through florida i was like i went

00:17:04.900 --> 00:17:07.779
out kayaking with some manatees and i was telling

00:17:07.779 --> 00:17:11.519
my mom like i had a manatee or whatever and her

00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:14.920
first question was oh do they bite and it's just

00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:18.000
that's our first default reaction to everything

00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:21.160
Is it dangerous or whatever? I'm like, that's

00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:27.980
illegal, man. True. Whatever. All Floridians

00:17:27.980 --> 00:17:30.779
have pet a manatee at one point or another. So

00:17:30.779 --> 00:17:38.839
she tried to really have strict rules with...

00:17:39.369 --> 00:17:43.289
Video games and movies and TV and what was allowed

00:17:43.289 --> 00:17:47.410
and what was appropriate. And I was always just

00:17:47.410 --> 00:17:49.930
very rebellious. Were you allowed to play pinball?

00:17:50.450 --> 00:17:54.829
Yes, I was allowed to play pinball. Once they

00:17:54.829 --> 00:17:58.789
made it legal, it lost the edge. Back when it

00:17:58.789 --> 00:18:03.410
was illegal and you had to be an illegal pinball

00:18:03.410 --> 00:18:07.059
machine. i don't even know how you were getting

00:18:07.059 --> 00:18:09.819
one there's like the pinball mafia or something

00:18:09.819 --> 00:18:13.380
but oh man you have an illegal pinball machine

00:18:13.380 --> 00:18:17.039
you're fucking that guy's cool the engineering

00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:20.299
that goes into those machines i i actually just

00:18:20.299 --> 00:18:24.660
went to where was i in seattle they have this

00:18:24.660 --> 00:18:29.940
um quote unquote pinball museum and there's not

00:18:29.940 --> 00:18:33.559
so much information there is some about each

00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:38.740
machine but They have like a pinball machine

00:18:38.740 --> 00:18:43.119
from almost every year. Oh, wow. Like some of

00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:45.519
the earliest ones going back, at least once they

00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:52.059
put the paddles in. And so I played every one.

00:18:52.220 --> 00:18:56.440
So you can see the way the designs changed. If

00:18:56.440 --> 00:19:00.220
you just start from the beginning and four hours

00:19:00.220 --> 00:19:02.299
or whatever, you can play like the whole history

00:19:02.299 --> 00:19:09.460
of. pinball engineering that sounds so fun for

00:19:09.460 --> 00:19:13.200
someone that actually doesn't generally care

00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:18.220
for pinball it was super fun there's this Atari

00:19:18.220 --> 00:19:22.039
collection that they put out it's similar but

00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:24.519
it's at home where they take you through the

00:19:24.519 --> 00:19:27.640
history of Atari you get to play each game but

00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:30.380
they also have like historical material and interviews

00:19:30.380 --> 00:19:33.769
with the developers it's really Because a lot

00:19:33.769 --> 00:19:35.609
of the times there's old collections of games.

00:19:35.750 --> 00:19:38.730
They're just collections of old games that you're

00:19:38.730 --> 00:19:42.730
like, this sucks now. But when you get all that

00:19:42.730 --> 00:19:46.309
extra context, I think it really helps you understand

00:19:46.309 --> 00:19:50.069
why it was fun then and what was fun about it.

00:19:50.349 --> 00:19:56.849
Oh, I just remember my many friends. I had the

00:19:56.849 --> 00:20:01.230
people that babysat me and my best friends growing

00:20:01.230 --> 00:20:06.289
up. had an atari and then my uncle had an atari

00:20:06.289 --> 00:20:08.829
and it was just like anytime i got a chance to

00:20:08.829 --> 00:20:11.890
play atari it was incredible i can't imagine

00:20:11.890 --> 00:20:16.730
it's got to be so hard to as a parent these days

00:20:16.730 --> 00:20:20.950
to get kids to play outside and stuff like that

00:20:20.950 --> 00:20:23.930
because it's just like the games are incredible

00:20:23.930 --> 00:20:29.750
it is it absolutely is it's it doesn't help that

00:20:29.750 --> 00:20:34.099
it's getting Hotter and hotter, but yeah. So

00:20:34.099 --> 00:20:39.240
good natured, but overprotective parent. Do you

00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:43.220
think that anxiety took some of that on yourself

00:20:43.220 --> 00:20:46.740
or do you? Oh, I was just, I just was like incredibly

00:20:46.740 --> 00:20:50.420
like rebellious. Okay. And so I got myself into

00:20:50.420 --> 00:20:53.539
really in hindsight, an unnecessary amount of

00:20:53.539 --> 00:20:59.470
trouble. And I, I hated school and yeah. My name

00:20:59.470 --> 00:21:01.769
was always on the board. I was always in detention.

00:21:02.930 --> 00:21:11.289
I was exceptionally good at math without even

00:21:11.289 --> 00:21:16.289
trying. But I paid no attention in school, so

00:21:16.289 --> 00:21:18.849
all the other classes I was so bad at. I was

00:21:18.849 --> 00:21:21.609
grades behind in reading and stuff. So there

00:21:21.609 --> 00:21:26.009
was regularly... meetings because there wasn't

00:21:26.009 --> 00:21:29.329
as much like neural divergent talk back then

00:21:29.329 --> 00:21:34.210
but it was like some people be like oh do we

00:21:34.210 --> 00:21:36.150
need to hold them back a grade do we need to

00:21:36.150 --> 00:21:38.309
put them in like the special ed with all the

00:21:38.309 --> 00:21:43.029
like troublemaker kids or and then the math teachers

00:21:43.029 --> 00:21:45.009
would have to come in and be like no he actually

00:21:45.009 --> 00:21:50.690
needs to be in advanced classes yeah yeah so

00:21:50.690 --> 00:21:57.789
it was like school was torture for me and I'm

00:21:57.789 --> 00:22:02.210
thankful that I eventually got into I'm an autodidact

00:22:02.210 --> 00:22:06.509
now I love taking classes and things now I'm

00:22:06.509 --> 00:22:10.250
constantly taking online courses and you know

00:22:10.250 --> 00:22:13.230
I have a science podcast here we are and I interview

00:22:13.230 --> 00:22:15.670
scientists all the time and I get to learn so

00:22:15.670 --> 00:22:21.269
much and so I look back but I'm sure a lot of

00:22:21.269 --> 00:22:23.619
people wish they would have paid a little more

00:22:23.619 --> 00:22:25.799
attention in school or whatever but it was what

00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:29.920
what it was at the time but i'm like i i have

00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:34.160
a broken like pinky knuckle right now from like

00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:38.059
mountain biking six six weeks ago just it's my

00:22:38.059 --> 00:22:40.299
first time mountain bike the first day was amazing

00:22:40.299 --> 00:22:42.880
and then i think you could do like an advanced

00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:45.700
trail actually you're really good like i i'm

00:22:45.700 --> 00:22:47.940
just i always like to like extreme sports and

00:22:47.940 --> 00:22:50.299
stuff that was just like like i hated organized

00:22:50.299 --> 00:22:53.599
sports and i Loved things where you could get

00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:58.299
hurt. I was very reckless always, and I still

00:22:58.299 --> 00:23:04.500
am. So I have some scar tissue and kind of a

00:23:04.500 --> 00:23:07.859
bum foot that acts up a few days every month

00:23:07.859 --> 00:23:11.619
and stuff. There can be some consequences to

00:23:11.619 --> 00:23:13.859
rebellion. And then sometimes some rebellions,

00:23:13.859 --> 00:23:19.059
some default contrarianism stuff is just so immature.

00:23:20.910 --> 00:23:23.349
Yeah, I've heard you talk about that before with

00:23:23.349 --> 00:23:26.589
Duncan. Just like when y 'all were talking about

00:23:26.589 --> 00:23:33.130
rituals and how you abandoned being ritualistic.

00:23:33.730 --> 00:23:37.089
Oh, yeah. Oh, I never had any rituals. The intentional

00:23:37.089 --> 00:23:42.970
nonconformity. Oh, and my mom is just the cleanest,

00:23:43.009 --> 00:23:47.869
most organized. teetering on a little bit OCD

00:23:47.869 --> 00:23:50.170
when I was younger anyway I think she's loosened

00:23:50.170 --> 00:23:53.950
up I think it was like an outcome of the stress

00:23:53.950 --> 00:23:59.930
of being a mother and also a lot of from a small

00:23:59.930 --> 00:24:02.869
town and where everyone cares very much about

00:24:02.869 --> 00:24:07.670
what everyone else thinks of them and living

00:24:07.670 --> 00:24:11.609
to be kind of people pleasing and everything

00:24:11.609 --> 00:24:17.000
and so boy And so I rebelled against that too.

00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:20.440
And now I'm just like such a messy fucking boy

00:24:20.440 --> 00:24:23.180
still. It's just so immature. I don't know how

00:24:23.180 --> 00:24:26.940
to cook. I can't clean up after myself for shit.

00:24:26.980 --> 00:24:30.759
And it's just, I just went the opposite direction.

00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:33.720
It's like, you know what? Actually, those were

00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:37.460
a lot of great qualities that I wish I would

00:24:37.460 --> 00:24:41.559
have taken to more. But I was just, I just had

00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:47.700
it in my mom. It had like a devilish little troublemaker.

00:24:48.220 --> 00:24:51.660
And the more she tried to contain it, the more

00:24:51.660 --> 00:24:54.740
rebellious I was. And it was like a constant

00:24:54.740 --> 00:24:58.279
source of friction, my poor mother. But that's

00:24:58.279 --> 00:24:59.859
what it was like. The tighter you close your

00:24:59.859 --> 00:25:02.039
grip, the more systems will slip through your

00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:05.119
fingers. Yeah, yeah. It's funny because I know

00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:08.160
that I had one other friend whose parents were

00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:13.890
as strict as mine or stricter. person that i

00:25:13.890 --> 00:25:16.930
knew that was crazier than me in terms of like

00:25:16.930 --> 00:25:19.390
risk taking and whatnot and then i had these

00:25:19.390 --> 00:25:21.750
friends that their parents seemed like they let

00:25:21.750 --> 00:25:23.910
them do whatever the hell they wanted to do and

00:25:23.910 --> 00:25:28.829
they were the most well -behaved kids and i think

00:25:28.829 --> 00:25:32.990
i think that i don't know how much there is in

00:25:32.990 --> 00:25:36.710
the way of like free like parenting classes and

00:25:36.710 --> 00:25:39.509
stuff but i wish there was some more like 101

00:25:40.730 --> 00:25:42.769
It's easy to be well behaved when you don't have

00:25:42.769 --> 00:25:47.130
any rules. Yeah. Really. It's easy to stay out

00:25:47.130 --> 00:25:49.549
of trouble if you don't have any restrictions.

00:25:50.450 --> 00:25:53.029
Yeah, there's nothing to rebel against. Yeah,

00:25:53.029 --> 00:25:59.809
yeah. So you hated school. Did you fit in? Did

00:25:59.809 --> 00:26:02.269
you feel like you had friends at all, really?

00:26:02.450 --> 00:26:06.170
I actually, in hindsight, it was like I actually

00:26:06.170 --> 00:26:10.720
did have a nice little group of friends. To me,

00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:16.420
I felt, like, unpopular. I felt I was, like,

00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:18.279
the skinniest kid in school, and kids always

00:26:18.279 --> 00:26:23.160
find a thing to pick on. And I have, like, my

00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:25.519
dad, and my dad's side of the family is, like,

00:26:25.519 --> 00:26:32.240
towards the quieter side. And so I was... I definitely

00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:36.319
would have been voted shyest kid in school. And

00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:39.839
so I was very insecure. And so I was tall and

00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:45.980
skinny. And so it was also like the short kids

00:26:45.980 --> 00:26:48.299
would want to fight me because of how skinny

00:26:48.299 --> 00:26:51.079
I was. They thought they'd have a chance. Then

00:26:51.079 --> 00:26:56.240
they get to fight a tall guy. And I got bullied.

00:26:56.660 --> 00:27:02.559
Also, I remember bullying. I'm picking on kids.

00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:08.140
And it's, that's the shit that will, like, whatever

00:27:08.140 --> 00:27:10.720
kids bullied me, I could give a shit about. I

00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:12.720
was like, whatever, they were just kids. But

00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:17.599
when I bullied people, I can't fucking live with

00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:22.160
that shit. Like, I've made, I've ran into some

00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:26.019
of the kids that I bullied in the past and apologized

00:27:26.019 --> 00:27:30.259
and made, like, plenty of times in my adult life.

00:27:31.069 --> 00:27:34.049
I think a lot of the fucking problems with this

00:27:34.049 --> 00:27:37.670
modern world is just like these bullies with

00:27:37.670 --> 00:27:41.109
these bully mentality that like just refuse to

00:27:41.109 --> 00:27:46.329
like face like being critical of themselves and

00:27:46.329 --> 00:27:50.079
seeing. oh actually i was a piece of shit here

00:27:50.079 --> 00:27:53.039
and there and made these bad actions and like

00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:56.339
kind of self -reflection and so you have to like

00:27:56.339 --> 00:27:59.599
validate it by continuing to justify bullying

00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:03.259
and doubling down and i think you're absolutely

00:28:03.259 --> 00:28:07.700
right about that and i have a fucking bully dictator

00:28:07.700 --> 00:28:11.220
king yeah yeah no i think you're absolutely right

00:28:11.220 --> 00:28:15.829
i think the reactionary nature of The way people

00:28:15.829 --> 00:28:18.869
interact with each other online. Yeah. First

00:28:18.869 --> 00:28:20.630
of all, I don't think it's like that in the real

00:28:20.630 --> 00:28:24.349
world most of the time. When I'm out there with

00:28:24.349 --> 00:28:27.109
real people, it's a very different thing than

00:28:27.109 --> 00:28:30.549
what you see online. But it's becoming more and

00:28:30.549 --> 00:28:34.109
more. Online is becoming more and more part of

00:28:34.109 --> 00:28:36.829
the real world too. Yeah, yeah. And the way that

00:28:36.829 --> 00:28:38.789
we treat each other is becoming more and more

00:28:38.789 --> 00:28:42.950
like that. And you're right. It's like the moment.

00:28:43.900 --> 00:28:46.440
I remember just a couple of weeks ago when there

00:28:46.440 --> 00:28:49.680
was a joke going around about how Mamdani was

00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:53.099
going to put Arabic numbers and make all New

00:28:53.099 --> 00:28:56.859
York City schools teach Arabic numbers. And some

00:28:56.859 --> 00:28:59.339
lady who was like a Democrat, like true blue

00:28:59.339 --> 00:29:03.460
Democrat lady on a friend of mine's wall was

00:29:03.460 --> 00:29:07.180
like, made some offhand comment about it. Like

00:29:07.180 --> 00:29:09.359
she thought it was like, but then she like tried

00:29:09.359 --> 00:29:12.900
to say, no, we shouldn't spread it because it's.

00:29:13.420 --> 00:29:16.119
She was like, that's not true, or something like

00:29:16.119 --> 00:29:20.960
that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's not really, he's

00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:23.099
not really doing that. And then somebody was

00:29:23.099 --> 00:29:25.799
like, Arabic numerals are just like the numbers

00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:29.519
that we use all the time. yeah but if we spread

00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:33.180
this around then they're gonna use it as a and

00:29:33.180 --> 00:29:35.359
i'm like why can't you just admit that you were

00:29:35.359 --> 00:29:38.299
wrong yeah yeah why can't you just be like oh

00:29:38.299 --> 00:29:42.700
my bad yeah my mistake reactance doubling down

00:29:42.700 --> 00:29:45.500
lack of self -awareness one one of the things

00:29:45.500 --> 00:29:49.319
that i one one concept that i i think quite a

00:29:49.319 --> 00:29:54.859
bit about is is the is the evolution of self

00:29:54.859 --> 00:29:59.740
-deception i spend a lot of time So kind of my

00:29:59.740 --> 00:30:09.160
wheelhouse is in a lot of my best interviews

00:30:09.160 --> 00:30:14.599
when I'm talking with people. Thinking of the

00:30:14.599 --> 00:30:20.740
ways in which past pressures on our ancestors

00:30:20.740 --> 00:30:22.700
and through the course of evolutionary history

00:30:22.700 --> 00:30:25.900
have shaped our brains, have shaped various preferences.

00:30:27.890 --> 00:30:32.490
features that we are attracted to may have been

00:30:32.490 --> 00:30:34.930
like indicators of health in the past and that

00:30:34.930 --> 00:30:39.710
sort of thing and and various social behaviors

00:30:39.710 --> 00:30:42.650
that we have a lot of these drives that we had

00:30:42.650 --> 00:30:46.430
were because they were evolutionarily beneficial

00:30:46.430 --> 00:30:49.869
at at some point and our modern world's much

00:30:49.869 --> 00:30:52.690
much different than it used to be but so you

00:30:52.690 --> 00:30:57.890
have so basically for For human genes to spread,

00:30:58.049 --> 00:31:01.930
there's like kind of seven different sub -selves

00:31:01.930 --> 00:31:05.029
of the mind that we really aren't like privy

00:31:05.029 --> 00:31:07.250
to, but there's tests that you can design to

00:31:07.250 --> 00:31:11.529
tease out these ideas. You know, this is like

00:31:11.529 --> 00:31:17.450
an imperfect categorization, but one of the ways

00:31:17.450 --> 00:31:21.710
that I like thinking about it is, there's a good

00:31:21.710 --> 00:31:26.400
book, The Rational Animal, that is, So you need

00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:30.660
like a survivor sub self. You need the kind of

00:31:30.660 --> 00:31:34.460
night watchman of sorts. Keep an eye out for

00:31:34.460 --> 00:31:38.519
surviving. There's an infectious disease sub

00:31:38.519 --> 00:31:41.900
self, which is you go in like a public restroom

00:31:41.900 --> 00:31:45.960
or something. That's because ancestors that had

00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:49.839
an aversion to say poop or whatever did better

00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:55.000
than ones that were attracted to it. And then

00:31:55.000 --> 00:31:59.319
you have, because we're social animals, so then

00:31:59.319 --> 00:32:03.559
every species also needs to find a mate. And

00:32:03.559 --> 00:32:07.859
then some species do some child rearing, which

00:32:07.859 --> 00:32:14.720
humans do. And then, yeah, a lot of fish just

00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:17.900
shoot out their eggs and never see their offspring.

00:32:18.420 --> 00:32:25.240
And then there's, let's see. So attracting a

00:32:25.240 --> 00:32:29.859
mate, mate retention. So because humans have

00:32:29.859 --> 00:32:34.119
some pair bonding and paternal care has been

00:32:34.119 --> 00:32:37.339
selected for over time, which is also pretty

00:32:37.339 --> 00:32:41.339
unusual in species, there's features that it

00:32:41.339 --> 00:32:46.220
takes one thing to pick up a lady. It takes another

00:32:46.220 --> 00:32:49.180
thing to hold on to one. Those are like different

00:32:49.180 --> 00:32:53.180
features. And then there's, because we're social

00:32:53.180 --> 00:32:56.619
animals, there's an affiliate of sub -self. And

00:32:56.619 --> 00:32:59.339
then there's a status -recognizing sub -self,

00:32:59.359 --> 00:33:04.039
which is knowing, kind of sensing where you are

00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:06.859
in a social totem pole in different situations.

00:33:06.859 --> 00:33:12.599
So it's always my status while on stage is different

00:33:12.599 --> 00:33:15.059
than my status when I'm in a convenience store,

00:33:15.259 --> 00:33:18.099
which is different than my status when I'm like...

00:33:18.569 --> 00:33:21.529
on a mountain bike course or something so this

00:33:21.529 --> 00:33:25.269
is always different and the same person can be

00:33:25.269 --> 00:33:28.849
low on the totem pole working in the mail room

00:33:28.849 --> 00:33:33.410
at their work but then they're the best on the

00:33:33.410 --> 00:33:36.710
company softball team yeah so it's like a water

00:33:36.710 --> 00:33:39.549
bottle in walmart versus a water bottle in the

00:33:39.549 --> 00:33:44.910
airport yeah yeah sure that bottle yeah the same

00:33:44.910 --> 00:33:48.109
bottle is worth more in different so you know

00:33:48.410 --> 00:33:51.390
that person when they're was going to have more

00:33:51.390 --> 00:33:54.250
confidence and maybe call the shots on the softball

00:33:54.250 --> 00:33:58.150
but then that might be lowering confidence working

00:33:58.150 --> 00:34:02.509
in the mail room or whatever and so these are

00:34:02.509 --> 00:34:05.349
things that are always being adjusted and there's

00:34:05.349 --> 00:34:07.529
all these interesting tests developed to tease

00:34:07.529 --> 00:34:12.349
these things apart but so of the of these kind

00:34:12.349 --> 00:34:16.510
of subconscious drives we can become aware of

00:34:16.510 --> 00:34:23.630
them but But there's a lot of work about self

00:34:23.630 --> 00:34:27.150
-deception. The ways in which our brains err

00:34:27.150 --> 00:34:31.650
aren't just random. We often err to the side

00:34:31.650 --> 00:34:35.829
of, for survival sub -self, you err to the side

00:34:35.829 --> 00:34:39.630
of caution. So you might not be accurately perceiving

00:34:39.630 --> 00:34:44.519
a threat, but the over -cautiousness... left

00:34:44.519 --> 00:34:46.739
more descendants than people that took too many

00:34:46.739 --> 00:34:49.699
risks for example and then this creates a spectrum

00:34:49.699 --> 00:34:52.280
and then this is why there's the varying personalities

00:34:52.280 --> 00:34:54.840
and everything and there's been so many ecological

00:34:54.840 --> 00:34:57.199
changes in different environments and humans

00:34:57.199 --> 00:34:59.679
are extremely adaptable so a lot of these things

00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:03.320
are highly influenced by the environment and

00:35:03.320 --> 00:35:07.880
culture more so in humans than in a lot of species

00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:11.820
that are a lot more fixed yeah yeah yeah That

00:35:11.820 --> 00:35:14.800
have a very specific niche, like a sloth or something

00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:17.300
like that, that can't really... Very specific

00:35:17.300 --> 00:35:20.699
biological place. Yeah, you put them somewhere

00:35:20.699 --> 00:35:22.559
else, they're probably not going to do very well.

00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:27.199
And self -deception is really interesting because

00:35:27.199 --> 00:35:33.159
we're these social animals and because status

00:35:33.159 --> 00:35:38.639
is something that can be valued and there's sometimes

00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:44.170
some gender differences. and various ways in

00:35:44.170 --> 00:35:47.389
which status might mean more in different situations.

00:35:47.530 --> 00:35:51.909
But because of this and being affiliative, the

00:35:51.909 --> 00:35:59.190
ability to sell yourself to others is something

00:35:59.190 --> 00:36:03.829
that is selected for. So having confidence and

00:36:03.829 --> 00:36:08.599
everything. So there are... subconscious features

00:36:08.599 --> 00:36:10.539
and again there's individual differences where

00:36:10.539 --> 00:36:12.860
plenty of people have insecurities in different

00:36:12.860 --> 00:36:16.699
domains but quite testably if you ask people

00:36:16.699 --> 00:36:20.820
how good of a driver are you how smart are you

00:36:20.820 --> 00:36:25.019
how attractive are you the average person embellishes

00:36:25.019 --> 00:36:31.039
by about 15 20 percent and the idea is that and

00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:33.219
then some people are way off the charts and then

00:36:33.219 --> 00:36:35.679
and the idea is it's like just enough where it

00:36:35.679 --> 00:36:38.039
can help you get ahead a little bit in a social

00:36:38.039 --> 00:36:40.679
situation if you have so it's like you don't

00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:43.019
realize you're doing this but you have a little

00:36:43.019 --> 00:36:45.639
more confidence in this situation and that can

00:36:45.639 --> 00:36:48.079
keep you like moving forward through life a little

00:36:48.079 --> 00:36:50.880
bit like maybe seeing reality a little clearer

00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:54.059
would make it a little harder to get out of bed

00:36:54.059 --> 00:36:59.539
and to take a chance at something if you were

00:36:59.539 --> 00:37:03.280
seeing it more accurately and so because you

00:37:03.559 --> 00:37:07.800
have this like slight delusion it can actually

00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:11.260
work out numbers wise over time as like evolution

00:37:11.260 --> 00:37:13.539
throws like a lot of spaghetti against the wall

00:37:13.539 --> 00:37:17.659
that that that things that are just a little

00:37:17.659 --> 00:37:19.579
overly competent and then the other thing is

00:37:19.579 --> 00:37:24.039
in terms of social manipulation so say we're

00:37:24.039 --> 00:37:29.969
negotiating a deal if i'm really genuine and

00:37:29.969 --> 00:37:32.309
i'm like trying to sell you something it's going

00:37:32.309 --> 00:37:35.349
to be more believable to you and you're going

00:37:35.349 --> 00:37:38.130
to be more inclined to buy it or pay more for

00:37:38.130 --> 00:37:41.510
whatever i'm trying to sell you and so then you're

00:37:41.510 --> 00:37:44.889
trying to detect if i'm genuine or not and so

00:37:44.889 --> 00:37:47.289
then there's these social features where some

00:37:47.289 --> 00:37:50.590
people might like over time you evolve ways to

00:37:50.590 --> 00:37:53.309
deceive and then you evolve ways to detect deception

00:37:53.309 --> 00:37:57.010
so much so that eventually some ways to deceive

00:37:57.849 --> 00:38:01.190
are hidden from our conscious awareness because

00:38:01.190 --> 00:38:06.489
it's easier to sell something when you believe

00:38:06.489 --> 00:38:09.090
it yourself. So it's like these kind of lies

00:38:09.090 --> 00:38:12.190
that you tell yourself a little bit. And it's

00:38:12.190 --> 00:38:15.489
not necessarily even lies, it's just embellishments.

00:38:15.510 --> 00:38:19.789
But you're genuinely perceiving this product

00:38:19.789 --> 00:38:24.230
that you made as better than it is. So there's

00:38:24.230 --> 00:38:28.400
a lot I want to teach. Yeah, yeah. Were you able

00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:33.219
to follow everything? For sure. And we're speaking

00:38:33.219 --> 00:38:35.059
the same language in a lot of this, too, just

00:38:35.059 --> 00:38:37.719
because of my background in history of science

00:38:37.719 --> 00:38:40.699
and history of biology. Yeah. But what strikes

00:38:40.699 --> 00:38:42.800
me about a lot of what you were just saying,

00:38:42.820 --> 00:38:46.500
too, is like all of that understanding, all that

00:38:46.500 --> 00:38:52.019
is crucial to being a comedian. Yeah. You have

00:38:52.019 --> 00:38:56.500
to. Have some self -deception that people even

00:38:56.500 --> 00:38:59.119
want to listen to you talk by yourself on stage.

00:38:59.920 --> 00:39:05.539
Especially early on, I have to delude myself

00:39:05.539 --> 00:39:07.219
into thinking people actually want to hear what

00:39:07.219 --> 00:39:10.679
I want to say. Same with putting out something

00:39:10.679 --> 00:39:15.139
like this. You have to believe this thing that

00:39:15.139 --> 00:39:18.800
may or may not be true. You have to believe that

00:39:18.800 --> 00:39:23.420
what you're doing is worth people's time. But

00:39:23.420 --> 00:39:26.159
then you also have to be able to have that self

00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:29.280
-reflection to be like, maybe the real world

00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:34.199
isn't the place for me. Yeah. Nine to five. At

00:39:34.199 --> 00:39:39.099
what point did you realize that and realize that

00:39:39.099 --> 00:39:42.840
you needed to pursue something? different than

00:39:42.840 --> 00:39:45.139
because i feel like this is what was going on

00:39:45.139 --> 00:39:46.840
you already knew it in high school you already

00:39:46.840 --> 00:39:49.440
knew it in school oh when i when i was nine years

00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:51.460
old a friend of mine had told me i should be

00:39:51.460 --> 00:39:53.880
a stand -up comedian and i i didn't tell anyone

00:39:53.880 --> 00:39:56.579
that then but it was like at the age when everyone

00:39:56.579 --> 00:39:58.960
was figuring out what are you gonna be when you

00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:03.039
grow up we just graduated fourth grades time

00:40:03.039 --> 00:40:09.219
to make some big the choices and and nothing

00:40:09.219 --> 00:40:13.949
seemed to peel peeling to me And I really, I

00:40:13.949 --> 00:40:18.389
was raised really, by my standard, pretty strictly

00:40:18.389 --> 00:40:25.090
religious, I would say. Catholic. My dad was

00:40:25.090 --> 00:40:28.409
Catholic. My mom was Lutheran, too. And so it

00:40:28.409 --> 00:40:31.210
was, I think that they weren't as, they were

00:40:31.210 --> 00:40:34.050
more flexible in terms of denomination and just

00:40:34.050 --> 00:40:38.599
Christianity. I had some questions about that,

00:40:38.619 --> 00:40:41.199
like, very early on, in the same way that, like,

00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:44.940
everyone was, like, Packer fans and would get

00:40:44.940 --> 00:40:48.280
so excited. And I remember watching football

00:40:48.280 --> 00:40:51.659
and being like, I don't get what the fuss is

00:40:51.659 --> 00:40:55.719
about. Hey, as a kid, I was like, let's go outside

00:40:55.719 --> 00:40:58.719
and play sports. I want to play. Like, watching,

00:40:58.860 --> 00:41:02.539
like, other people do the same thing for hours

00:41:02.539 --> 00:41:06.840
and hours on end. I found out when I was like

00:41:06.840 --> 00:41:10.099
five that if I just rooted for the other team

00:41:10.099 --> 00:41:14.760
that the Packers weren't playing, or that the

00:41:14.760 --> 00:41:18.699
Packers were playing, it would drive my uncles

00:41:18.699 --> 00:41:22.980
like insane. And it just cracked me up so much

00:41:22.980 --> 00:41:27.300
that I could just push buttons that easily. And

00:41:27.300 --> 00:41:30.400
it was like fascinating to me. And so because

00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:34.480
of that, I remember around the same time that...

00:41:34.710 --> 00:41:39.650
I started questioning Santa Claus, four years

00:41:39.650 --> 00:41:43.309
old or whatever even. It wasn't long after that

00:41:43.309 --> 00:41:47.449
I started being like, what is this stuff? And

00:41:47.449 --> 00:41:51.130
how does this prayer? So there's a thing, just

00:41:51.130 --> 00:41:55.429
listen. Wait a second. Is this just like a story

00:41:55.429 --> 00:41:58.269
people are telling themselves? I always thought

00:41:58.269 --> 00:42:02.900
of Santa Claus as like God Jr. Oh, yeah. It's

00:42:02.900 --> 00:42:05.519
like you're just getting them ready for somebody

00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:08.300
watching them all the time, and you're giving

00:42:08.300 --> 00:42:10.199
them the carrot before you give them the stick.

00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:13.500
Yeah, and there's a lot of reasons why humans

00:42:13.500 --> 00:42:18.880
have been able to... There's a lovely book, which

00:42:18.880 --> 00:42:21.440
it's not the only take, and it's not a perfect

00:42:21.440 --> 00:42:24.719
take, but the book Sapiens, A Brief History of

00:42:24.719 --> 00:42:33.019
Humankind, that makes a case for the... evolution

00:42:33.019 --> 00:42:36.420
of cognitive features that allowed humans to

00:42:36.420 --> 00:42:39.800
cooperate in large numbers over subjective ideas

00:42:39.800 --> 00:42:44.039
things that only exist in the human mind so like

00:42:44.039 --> 00:42:46.860
he put that at like 250 000 years ago is that

00:42:46.860 --> 00:42:49.500
right that we started to develop that i think

00:42:49.500 --> 00:42:53.179
he's speculating on that maybe there was this

00:42:53.179 --> 00:42:56.579
change during the cognitive revolution which

00:42:56.579 --> 00:43:00.920
which was around like 80 000 years ago or so

00:43:00.920 --> 00:43:05.679
but yeah so humans are like so the so his case

00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:09.019
is around that so humans have been around for

00:43:09.019 --> 00:43:14.000
about 300 000 years and his take is that maybe

00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:16.159
what happened when there was like this explosion

00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:19.340
of new tools and stuff like that it was something

00:43:19.340 --> 00:43:22.480
that some sort of aspect of our cognition that

00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:26.710
had been selected for that allowed for this that

00:43:26.710 --> 00:43:29.110
took off well and the earliest tools are found

00:43:29.110 --> 00:43:32.750
in neanderthal caves and things like that too

00:43:32.750 --> 00:43:34.809
so like even the and we were here breeding with

00:43:34.809 --> 00:43:37.210
them a lot at that point yeah and so this was

00:43:37.210 --> 00:43:39.809
like a lot of the case that he makes in his book

00:43:39.809 --> 00:43:43.230
was like how did we out compete neanderthals

00:43:43.230 --> 00:43:46.309
and this is neanderthals weren't able to organize

00:43:46.309 --> 00:43:48.909
in the same numbers that we were and and the

00:43:48.909 --> 00:43:51.989
speculation is maybe it's because of these subjective

00:43:51.989 --> 00:43:54.670
beliefs and then we also have all these other

00:43:54.670 --> 00:43:58.750
evolved cognitive biases which are that we have

00:43:58.750 --> 00:44:01.670
theory of mind and understanding that other things

00:44:01.670 --> 00:44:04.210
have a mind and we try to test for that in other

00:44:04.210 --> 00:44:07.150
animals as well and there's not a lot of animals

00:44:07.150 --> 00:44:11.150
showing a lot of great like theory of mind type

00:44:11.150 --> 00:44:14.889
stuff and even understanding that they're looking

00:44:14.889 --> 00:44:19.250
at themselves in the mirror or whatever and and

00:44:19.250 --> 00:44:22.750
so This is really beneficial if you know something

00:44:22.750 --> 00:44:26.250
has a mind and if you know something has an intent,

00:44:26.489 --> 00:44:30.530
an agency. This is really beneficial if an organism

00:44:30.530 --> 00:44:36.050
knows like a predator or prey has a mind and

00:44:36.050 --> 00:44:40.369
an agency of its own. And if you're able to put

00:44:40.369 --> 00:44:44.849
yourself in its shoes, you can anticipate moves

00:44:44.849 --> 00:44:49.300
and then a social. Species like us, the same

00:44:49.300 --> 00:44:52.159
thing. If you can put yourself in another person's

00:44:52.159 --> 00:44:55.039
shoes and then imagine them imagining themselves

00:44:55.039 --> 00:44:58.840
in your shoes. These are cognitive features that

00:44:58.840 --> 00:45:04.960
we're selected for so much so that we overshoot

00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:10.320
it. So we tend to anthropomorphize even inanimate

00:45:10.320 --> 00:45:14.739
objects and things. Think about Wilson in Cast

00:45:14.739 --> 00:45:18.989
Away. Exactly, exactly. And we also, the same

00:45:18.989 --> 00:45:23.869
thing for faces, recognizing faces. If you look

00:45:23.869 --> 00:45:27.090
in a bush to know if there's like a face of an

00:45:27.090 --> 00:45:29.690
animal rather than just like a random pattern

00:45:29.690 --> 00:45:33.449
is so beneficial that it's not that big of a

00:45:33.449 --> 00:45:37.309
cost to perceive shapes in clouds and be wrong.

00:45:37.670 --> 00:45:41.159
That's not a big deal. But if you don't notice

00:45:41.159 --> 00:45:44.059
that there's a face and a mind and intention

00:45:44.059 --> 00:45:48.880
in a bush, it might eat you. And so it's to that

00:45:48.880 --> 00:45:51.639
better safe than sorry, erring toward the side

00:45:51.639 --> 00:45:55.440
of caution. It's so useful to imagine a mind

00:45:55.440 --> 00:46:00.059
and agency that we projected onto other things.

00:46:01.460 --> 00:46:06.280
But much of human history, it seems like hunter

00:46:06.280 --> 00:46:09.900
-gatherer tribes today, have a lot of animism

00:46:09.900 --> 00:46:15.860
where there's a tree god and a cat god and like

00:46:15.860 --> 00:46:19.079
every there's a god for everything but the greeks

00:46:19.079 --> 00:46:22.760
and the romans had a lot more of that yeah that

00:46:22.760 --> 00:46:26.820
was yeah like polytheism yeah which is a little

00:46:26.820 --> 00:46:29.099
bit different than like animism which is like

00:46:29.099 --> 00:46:33.059
a nice way of you have these archetypes of the

00:46:33.059 --> 00:46:37.019
perfect tree or it's not of them as being like

00:46:37.369 --> 00:46:39.730
In relationship to what their relationship with

00:46:39.730 --> 00:46:43.710
nature was, right? Exactly. The more hunter -gatherer

00:46:43.710 --> 00:46:46.989
people had this closer, more reliant relationship

00:46:46.989 --> 00:46:50.329
on their environment. And once you start the

00:46:50.329 --> 00:46:53.190
agrarian... Building cities and having agriculture

00:46:53.190 --> 00:46:59.090
and accruing. And then now suddenly status becomes

00:46:59.090 --> 00:47:05.150
a much bigger deal. Once you can suddenly start

00:47:05.150 --> 00:47:10.889
accruing a lot more resources and owning more

00:47:10.889 --> 00:47:19.789
things and suddenly you can store enough food

00:47:19.789 --> 00:47:25.170
for thousands of people and someone else that

00:47:25.170 --> 00:47:28.389
doesn't have that many assets might not be as

00:47:28.389 --> 00:47:36.280
valuable as a mate. or as a friend or whatever.

00:47:36.960 --> 00:47:40.940
So then once we started perceiving the status

00:47:40.940 --> 00:47:43.699
a little bit more, you see it go more and more

00:47:43.699 --> 00:47:47.119
into these monocultures where we tend to perceive

00:47:47.119 --> 00:47:52.260
a single god. But at the same time, a lot of

00:47:52.260 --> 00:47:54.280
the same features are still where you're over

00:47:54.280 --> 00:47:57.199
-perceiving a monoculture. But now it's, instead

00:47:57.199 --> 00:47:59.539
of appreciating that there's a god for everything,

00:47:59.659 --> 00:48:03.030
now it's just, I bet there's, There's a guy that's...

00:48:03.030 --> 00:48:07.630
It's just like me, only more like me. Just like...

00:48:07.630 --> 00:48:09.369
I remember the name of the Greek philosopher,

00:48:09.710 --> 00:48:13.929
but he said the god of a fish is a fish. I can't

00:48:13.929 --> 00:48:16.349
remember his name at the moment, but I got to

00:48:16.349 --> 00:48:19.190
pee. Can we take... Yeah. Come in. Cool. I have

00:48:19.190 --> 00:48:22.349
two restrooms if you need one, too. Maybe I'll

00:48:22.349 --> 00:48:25.010
have some more tea. Cool, man. I bet that water's

00:48:25.010 --> 00:48:27.630
still hot, but if it's not... Oh, I'm sorry.

00:48:27.730 --> 00:48:30.349
It's right there, yeah. Yeah, that's the mess

00:48:30.349 --> 00:48:35.489
of a book room. So with monotheism, it really

00:48:35.489 --> 00:48:40.670
becomes, to me, a thing that starts being almost

00:48:40.670 --> 00:48:43.849
inseparable from natural philosophy at a certain

00:48:43.849 --> 00:48:47.349
point. Because everything is being, but the way

00:48:47.349 --> 00:48:50.590
that you examine it and your ability to ask questions

00:48:50.590 --> 00:48:52.969
and answer them is very different under those

00:48:52.969 --> 00:48:56.619
two frameworks. One thing that I've... Was there

00:48:56.619 --> 00:48:59.900
ever a point that you found yourself believing

00:48:59.900 --> 00:49:02.460
in what your parents were teaching you as a kid,

00:49:02.559 --> 00:49:05.460
or were you always questioning it? Yeah, no.

00:49:05.820 --> 00:49:09.000
So I was always questioning it, but I realized,

00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:17.280
like, I basically, when I still, I remember,

00:49:17.400 --> 00:49:21.860
like, still, like, sincerely praying as a child

00:49:21.860 --> 00:49:29.780
and stuff. It was like... But really, is this

00:49:29.780 --> 00:49:35.019
a thing? And it's funny because as an adult,

00:49:35.099 --> 00:49:40.820
I actually have an appreciation for a lot of

00:49:40.820 --> 00:49:45.500
the intricacies of how religions and spirituality

00:49:45.500 --> 00:49:49.880
evolved. And a lot of the ways in which it has

00:49:49.880 --> 00:49:52.519
been beneficial to a lot of people through time,

00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:56.340
but there's definitely pros and cons, but, but

00:49:56.340 --> 00:49:59.659
yeah, I remember at that same time when I was

00:49:59.659 --> 00:50:04.519
like nine, I realized, Oh, this is not like a

00:50:04.519 --> 00:50:08.980
thing. This is. So I was like, so I was like,

00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:14.860
there is not. No. And it was like, it was, I

00:50:14.860 --> 00:50:19.500
didn't even know. that there was such a thing

00:50:19.500 --> 00:50:23.539
as being agnostic or atheist. As far as I knew,

00:50:23.719 --> 00:50:29.139
everyone, every single person in the world, except

00:50:29.139 --> 00:50:35.059
me, believed in these stories. Have you been

00:50:35.059 --> 00:50:38.059
watching Blurbis? I have been, actually. It's

00:50:38.059 --> 00:50:40.380
so fantastic. It reminds me of that scenario

00:50:40.380 --> 00:50:45.869
where you feel so alone. Yeah, yeah. And everybody

00:50:45.869 --> 00:50:48.610
is in on this thing that you don't understand.

00:50:49.349 --> 00:50:56.510
And it was really, it messed me up. It was so

00:50:56.510 --> 00:51:00.429
alienating. And so then I didn't want to do anything

00:51:00.429 --> 00:51:04.050
conventional. And so this was like in the summer

00:51:04.050 --> 00:51:06.730
between fourth and fifth grade, I remember I

00:51:06.730 --> 00:51:08.889
stopped believing there was a God. I was like,

00:51:08.969 --> 00:51:14.400
nope, there's no God. And then I... I have more

00:51:14.400 --> 00:51:20.599
nuanced ideas now. And then I realized I wanted

00:51:20.599 --> 00:51:25.519
to be a stand -up comedian. And then, yeah, that

00:51:25.519 --> 00:51:29.039
was like, because I didn't tell anyone, because

00:51:29.039 --> 00:51:35.920
my very responsible, pragmatic parents, I felt

00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:38.980
like. I told them they'd try to stop you. That's

00:51:38.980 --> 00:51:42.829
the way I felt. That's unfair to them. That's

00:51:42.829 --> 00:51:48.050
how it felt in my, yeah. And rightfully so. If

00:51:48.050 --> 00:51:50.630
anyone finds out you're a comic now, people are

00:51:50.630 --> 00:51:53.170
like, hey, tell me a joke or whatever. I knew

00:51:53.170 --> 00:51:55.929
that there would be an expectation. I was worried

00:51:55.929 --> 00:51:58.150
people would make fun of me for wanting to be

00:51:58.150 --> 00:52:01.110
a stand -up or whatever. And so it was like my

00:52:01.110 --> 00:52:05.710
biggest secret that I had. I can relate to that,

00:52:05.750 --> 00:52:08.110
to be honest. I feel like I carried a similar

00:52:08.110 --> 00:52:11.829
feeling around all through parenthood. Where

00:52:11.829 --> 00:52:14.510
it was like, I couldn't tell anybody. That's

00:52:14.510 --> 00:52:18.650
really what I felt was right for me. Because

00:52:18.650 --> 00:52:23.650
I had to be a responsible parent. But it was

00:52:23.650 --> 00:52:25.510
like in my heart. I was like, I know one day.

00:52:25.570 --> 00:52:27.909
And I used to tell myself, oh, I don't really.

00:52:28.010 --> 00:52:30.590
It's really rare for young comedians to have

00:52:30.590 --> 00:52:32.769
anything interesting to say. So I'll just do

00:52:32.769 --> 00:52:35.210
it when I'm older. Is what I would tell myself.

00:52:35.929 --> 00:52:39.269
But it was like this secret that I kept to myself.

00:52:39.550 --> 00:52:42.599
And I was always. i've loved comedy since i was

00:52:42.599 --> 00:52:47.599
very young but yeah really i feel you on that

00:52:47.599 --> 00:52:50.880
one man what was that like all through school

00:52:50.880 --> 00:52:52.900
because it seems to me like you were probably

00:52:52.900 --> 00:52:55.940
still like the class clown no actually i wasn't

00:52:55.940 --> 00:52:58.599
a class clown i was maybe in like math classes

00:52:58.599 --> 00:53:01.760
where i was like because then i it was like where

00:53:01.760 --> 00:53:03.619
the water when you were a water bottle in the

00:53:03.619 --> 00:53:07.519
airport yeah because there was like just nothing

00:53:08.440 --> 00:53:10.920
If I was sleeping in class or whatever and a

00:53:10.920 --> 00:53:13.900
teacher would call on me to wake me up or to

00:53:13.900 --> 00:53:16.940
catch me not paying attention, I could just easily,

00:53:17.039 --> 00:53:20.619
I knew the answer, I could explain it. And I

00:53:20.619 --> 00:53:25.820
could oftentimes explain it sometimes even better

00:53:25.820 --> 00:53:28.239
than the teacher. Because it's a lot of times...

00:53:28.239 --> 00:53:29.920
You were on the softball field, not in the mail

00:53:29.920 --> 00:53:33.980
room. Yeah, yeah. And it's also, there's some

00:53:33.980 --> 00:53:37.880
research that shows the best... The best teachers

00:53:37.880 --> 00:53:41.440
of, say, like fifth grade math are like seventh

00:53:41.440 --> 00:53:44.059
graders because they're like a couple years ahead,

00:53:44.179 --> 00:53:47.599
but they still remember what it was like to learn

00:53:47.599 --> 00:53:49.119
that. So it's not like there wasn't anything

00:53:49.119 --> 00:53:52.280
like special about me. It was just I was very

00:53:52.280 --> 00:53:55.019
comfortable in that space. And so because I was

00:53:55.019 --> 00:53:58.780
comfortable, maybe I would be more of a goofball.

00:53:59.500 --> 00:54:02.320
And so I do remember people thinking like I was

00:54:02.320 --> 00:54:05.539
funny and like bullies knew I was funny too.

00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:08.940
And like that, it was like my self -defense a

00:54:08.940 --> 00:54:11.380
little bit. Like they had to be careful because

00:54:11.380 --> 00:54:13.900
they might, they might want to bully me, but

00:54:13.900 --> 00:54:16.099
they're going to end up with a new nickname or

00:54:16.099 --> 00:54:20.820
something like that if they do. And so it's not,

00:54:20.880 --> 00:54:23.480
but I wasn't like a, I wouldn't consider myself

00:54:23.480 --> 00:54:27.900
a class clown. I was like really, no, no. Back

00:54:27.900 --> 00:54:32.880
of the room, very quiet. And yeah, I really kept

00:54:32.880 --> 00:54:38.059
to myself. But my core group of friends might

00:54:38.059 --> 00:54:40.860
be the funny one. Did you find yourself struggling

00:54:40.860 --> 00:54:46.139
with anxiety or depression? Oh, yeah. Depression.

00:54:46.920 --> 00:54:50.440
It sounds like you already felt very alienated

00:54:50.440 --> 00:54:53.739
just by who you thought you were versus everybody

00:54:53.739 --> 00:54:59.059
that you were around. Yeah, yeah. By the way,

00:54:59.179 --> 00:55:02.739
none of this is... I'm 45. I don't care at this

00:55:02.739 --> 00:55:06.639
point. I'm over it. But it's to the extent...

00:55:06.639 --> 00:55:10.940
I also... I'm teasing apart all these subtle

00:55:10.940 --> 00:55:13.559
little details that shape us in life histories

00:55:13.559 --> 00:55:16.739
and stuff. But I just don't want to be like,

00:55:16.820 --> 00:55:20.179
oh, poor me. I'm not getting the Freud doll.

00:55:20.179 --> 00:55:24.599
I do have him hanging out over there. Nice. But

00:55:24.599 --> 00:55:29.849
I... Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I remember. And

00:55:29.849 --> 00:55:32.670
then another thing happened, which was like the

00:55:32.670 --> 00:55:37.130
only adult that I respected, this like doctor,

00:55:37.210 --> 00:55:40.090
my mom worked at a clinic and there's this doctor,

00:55:40.369 --> 00:55:44.989
Dean was named family friend. And he, he was,

00:55:44.989 --> 00:55:48.949
he just had a like great way of relating to me.

00:55:48.989 --> 00:55:51.269
And I felt like buddies with him or whatever.

00:55:51.309 --> 00:55:54.650
He killed himself when I was like at that same

00:55:54.650 --> 00:55:58.050
age. And it like, It also got in my head. I was

00:55:58.050 --> 00:56:01.949
like, I get it. I remember taking it really hard,

00:56:02.010 --> 00:56:04.789
and then I remember being like, I get it. What

00:56:04.789 --> 00:56:09.010
is the point of any of this? And then I had these

00:56:09.010 --> 00:56:13.550
dreams of becoming a comedian. Yeah, I did. It

00:56:13.550 --> 00:56:17.869
was very existential, crisis -y type stuff. And

00:56:17.869 --> 00:56:22.909
I'm clinically diagnosed as bipolar now, but

00:56:22.909 --> 00:56:26.880
I think... I think it might have been some of

00:56:26.880 --> 00:56:29.300
that genetic, but I think it may have just been

00:56:29.300 --> 00:56:31.760
some of, like, my early development where it

00:56:31.760 --> 00:56:35.420
was, like, gravitating to these extremes so much

00:56:35.420 --> 00:56:37.900
where I was just, like, I felt, like, suicidal,

00:56:37.900 --> 00:56:40.940
like, every day. And the only thing that I could

00:56:40.940 --> 00:56:44.280
do that would keep me going was these dreams

00:56:44.280 --> 00:56:50.639
of being a famous stand -up comedian and everything.

00:56:50.860 --> 00:56:54.260
And what was funny is actually, like, When I

00:56:54.260 --> 00:56:56.320
caught breaks as a comedian, I was like, huh.

00:56:57.940 --> 00:57:02.280
That was everything I tortured myself over for

00:57:02.280 --> 00:57:07.840
the last 15 years or whatever. It's weird, man.

00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:12.719
When you get those personal victories and you've

00:57:12.719 --> 00:57:16.699
built them up so much. Yeah, yeah. I don't want

00:57:16.699 --> 00:57:18.840
to say they lose meaning, but it's really hard

00:57:18.840 --> 00:57:21.940
to stay present in them. Yeah. It's also more.

00:57:22.300 --> 00:57:27.400
I remember in Boston, I was pretty popular when

00:57:27.400 --> 00:57:30.739
I moved to Boston. I was getting to be... Did

00:57:30.739 --> 00:57:33.000
you move when you were in high school? No, I

00:57:33.000 --> 00:57:35.699
wanted to, and I kept on, oh, I'm going to save

00:57:35.699 --> 00:57:37.400
up some money, then I'm going to move. But I

00:57:37.400 --> 00:57:40.099
had gotten into drinking at that time and spent

00:57:40.099 --> 00:57:42.179
all my money partying, because then I was starting

00:57:42.179 --> 00:57:46.000
to become popular for the first time in my life.

00:57:46.510 --> 00:57:49.489
That was, oh, my gosh, I get to be popular. And

00:57:49.489 --> 00:57:51.650
I remember that being, like, really meaningful

00:57:51.650 --> 00:57:56.269
to me to get to be, like, the funny guy at parties

00:57:56.269 --> 00:58:01.289
or whatever. And alcohol loosened up my shyness

00:58:01.289 --> 00:58:06.530
and everything. Liquid courage. Liquid courage.

00:58:07.150 --> 00:58:10.409
And I was, like, so scared of girls. Oh, my God,

00:58:10.429 --> 00:58:13.570
I was so insecure. I'm so scared of them. Oh,

00:58:13.590 --> 00:58:19.139
yeah. And when you get regularly picked on for

00:58:19.139 --> 00:58:24.440
being, for how you look or whatever. And for

00:58:24.440 --> 00:58:26.940
me, it was like being freakishly skinny. I was

00:58:26.940 --> 00:58:30.039
like legitimately the skinniest. That ages very

00:58:30.039 --> 00:58:33.380
well. Again, I'm not complaining. It shaped me.

00:58:34.199 --> 00:58:36.460
By the way, I just want to say, you don't have

00:58:36.460 --> 00:58:40.260
a poor pitiful me tone about anything. You're

00:58:40.260 --> 00:58:42.840
good. But I do think it's interesting to talk

00:58:42.840 --> 00:58:46.059
about this stuff. Well, the point I was going

00:58:46.059 --> 00:58:49.239
to like when I remember getting to Boston and

00:58:49.239 --> 00:58:52.639
I'm grateful for starting in Boston and all the

00:58:52.639 --> 00:58:57.139
friends that I made there. But and few people

00:58:57.139 --> 00:59:01.300
get to have such fortunate experiences as myself.

00:59:01.980 --> 00:59:05.400
But I just remember like when I actually got

00:59:05.400 --> 00:59:09.000
to be cool. Oh, I'm cool. I remember being like,

00:59:09.019 --> 00:59:13.760
oh, so fucking stupid. like why why the fuck

00:59:13.760 --> 00:59:18.380
did i care like it was this is what i was torturing

00:59:18.380 --> 00:59:22.199
myself over it's great to have friends and be

00:59:22.199 --> 00:59:25.559
social but like a need to like be the fucking

00:59:25.559 --> 00:59:28.719
cool guy or whatever it's just like embarrassing

00:59:28.719 --> 00:59:32.599
yeah no i can't relate to that feel like because

00:59:32.599 --> 00:59:35.239
i was always so my first job was at a regular

00:59:35.239 --> 00:59:39.659
like a concert venue where I was a fucking stagehand

00:59:39.659 --> 00:59:42.480
or the dude that put the flyers on people's cars.

00:59:42.659 --> 00:59:46.579
I was 14, 15 years old. They would send me into

00:59:46.579 --> 00:59:49.340
the competitor's parking lots because I wouldn't

00:59:49.340 --> 00:59:54.139
go to jail. But my point is I was always surrounded

00:59:54.139 --> 00:59:59.780
by those people, and I liked being in the corner

00:59:59.780 --> 01:00:03.280
and being around it all, being in that world,

01:00:03.420 --> 01:00:06.719
but I never wanted to be the guy with all the

01:00:06.719 --> 01:00:11.750
spotlight. And so for me, I think, just over

01:00:11.750 --> 01:00:13.570
the last couple of years where I've really started

01:00:13.570 --> 01:00:16.889
to pursue what I want to do with my life, I was

01:00:16.889 --> 01:00:19.349
fortunate enough to know that it was more about

01:00:19.349 --> 01:00:22.369
connecting with the right people and making friends.

01:00:23.010 --> 01:00:26.170
I have a great group of people in my life that

01:00:26.170 --> 01:00:29.469
I love and have spent years developing really

01:00:29.469 --> 01:00:32.750
strong friendships with. But not a lot of them

01:00:32.750 --> 01:00:35.289
are... I still feel... different than a lot of

01:00:35.289 --> 01:00:37.849
them you know what i mean and then i found as

01:00:37.849 --> 01:00:39.849
i've gotten more into comedy and doing the podcast

01:00:39.849 --> 01:00:42.730
and back into the world where i was as a teenager

01:00:42.730 --> 01:00:47.889
it's oh i'm like with my people again and not

01:00:47.889 --> 01:00:51.409
to talk shit about any of my friends but they

01:00:51.409 --> 01:00:54.829
a lot of them work nine to fives they can function

01:00:54.829 --> 01:00:57.130
in society in a way that i've never really been

01:00:57.130 --> 01:01:01.429
able to yeah had to force myself to for a long

01:01:01.429 --> 01:01:04.559
time And what I'm hearing with you is, like,

01:01:04.599 --> 01:01:13.059
your drive to break out of being alone was maybe

01:01:13.059 --> 01:01:17.179
– admittedly, you say, like, maybe misguided,

01:01:17.179 --> 01:01:20.179
but it was, like, along the way you figured it

01:01:20.179 --> 01:01:23.179
out. That's not what's important. Like, what

01:01:23.179 --> 01:01:26.059
you were – what I'm thinking about is, like,

01:01:26.079 --> 01:01:28.699
it was glamorous to you in your brain for reasons

01:01:28.699 --> 01:01:31.670
that you didn't know. It was like, I don't want

01:01:31.670 --> 01:01:34.230
to be alone. And you thought at the time, oh,

01:01:34.289 --> 01:01:37.849
being admired, being popular, those are the ways.

01:01:37.929 --> 01:01:42.010
Those are the only ways you knew to not be feeling

01:01:42.010 --> 01:01:47.469
so fucking alone. But once you got into the Boston

01:01:47.469 --> 01:01:50.449
scene, I feel like that's when you realize the

01:01:50.449 --> 01:01:52.849
fame and the fortune, whatever, that's not what

01:01:52.849 --> 01:01:55.469
matters. But now I've surrounded myself with

01:01:55.469 --> 01:02:00.340
people that are like me. Yeah, absolutely. it's

01:02:00.340 --> 01:02:02.239
whenever i can relate and that's actually why

01:02:02.239 --> 01:02:05.179
i like interviewing scientists is when so then

01:02:05.179 --> 01:02:09.199
when i started that was the first time because

01:02:09.199 --> 01:02:14.360
so i really related to comedians minds a lot

01:02:14.360 --> 01:02:20.679
and then when i stumbled on the kind of idea

01:02:20.679 --> 01:02:24.139
and hobby of going because i was always reading

01:02:24.139 --> 01:02:27.780
pop science books and stuff and once i started

01:02:28.489 --> 01:02:31.590
uh interviewing people i was so scared and out

01:02:31.590 --> 01:02:35.170
of my comfort zone at the time but like after

01:02:35.170 --> 01:02:40.530
i got past that it's like when i talk with scientists

01:02:40.530 --> 01:02:46.309
it's it is it's just it's like really it's like

01:02:46.309 --> 01:02:50.369
oxygen it's it's oh this is this is someone that

01:02:50.369 --> 01:02:56.280
understands how I think about it, which is like

01:02:56.280 --> 01:02:58.780
figuring out the mechanisms that drive existence.

01:02:58.780 --> 01:03:00.880
It's like one of those other personalities. They're

01:03:00.880 --> 01:03:02.480
one of those other layers of your personality.

01:03:02.480 --> 01:03:07.679
It really is. And I don't think it's a capacity

01:03:07.679 --> 01:03:11.219
or capability thing. I think it's more of a willingness

01:03:11.219 --> 01:03:15.059
thing with people. I think that anyone could

01:03:15.059 --> 01:03:17.199
learn any aspect of science that they wanted

01:03:17.199 --> 01:03:20.940
to put time into. Yeah, I think that's true for

01:03:20.940 --> 01:03:25.000
a lot of things. wanting to yeah yeah yeah being

01:03:25.000 --> 01:03:29.059
driven and having that curiosity it's it can

01:03:29.059 --> 01:03:33.400
be really hard and i see uh and i know i'll try

01:03:33.400 --> 01:03:37.400
to be like all oftentimes i'll be in a social

01:03:37.400 --> 01:03:40.719
situation and i'll try to but i still don't talk

01:03:40.719 --> 01:03:43.960
that much i'll try to drop like some little bit

01:03:43.960 --> 01:03:47.400
of science knowledge about a cognitive bias or

01:03:47.400 --> 01:03:50.039
something like that that is extremely applicable

01:03:50.039 --> 01:03:53.619
to like the specific situation that we are in

01:03:53.619 --> 01:03:57.079
i know this is interesting and it's entertaining

01:03:57.079 --> 01:04:00.380
if you bring any willingness but like i'll just

01:04:00.380 --> 01:04:04.280
see people's eyes glaze over or whatever confused

01:04:04.280 --> 01:04:09.280
like why are we talking about this no it hasn't

01:04:09.280 --> 01:04:14.619
happened but it's so it just it definitely makes

01:04:14.619 --> 01:04:18.070
me feel like an alien a lot of times in this

01:04:18.070 --> 01:04:20.809
world where it's oh man a lot of people just

01:04:20.809 --> 01:04:24.369
can't relate to and there is like a serious scientific

01:04:24.369 --> 01:04:29.949
literacy issue and i don't care if someone doesn't

01:04:29.949 --> 01:04:35.429
know this stuff but like you like these like

01:04:35.429 --> 01:04:39.070
negative reactions of just if you're hearing

01:04:39.070 --> 01:04:42.230
something that might be a little different from

01:04:42.230 --> 01:04:44.730
your own beliefs or something like that you see

01:04:44.730 --> 01:04:48.289
these like self defenses and stuff go up and

01:04:48.289 --> 01:04:53.070
i like people like try to call like science boring

01:04:53.070 --> 01:04:55.349
and stuff too and i get it's it can be really

01:04:55.349 --> 01:04:59.510
tedious and it's certainly baseball that's the

01:04:59.510 --> 01:05:03.010
thing it's okay so what do the what are humans

01:05:03.010 --> 01:05:06.440
excited about The most excited you'll see them

01:05:06.440 --> 01:05:10.159
is when they get together on Sunday and watch

01:05:10.159 --> 01:05:13.960
a bunch of dudes try to move a ball around from

01:05:13.960 --> 01:05:17.940
one end of a field to another field, throwing

01:05:17.940 --> 01:05:20.519
it, running with it. Sometimes they kick it,

01:05:20.539 --> 01:05:24.059
too, and they do this in roughly the same way.

01:05:24.570 --> 01:05:27.309
The same way you've seen them do this thousands

01:05:27.309 --> 01:05:29.710
upon thousands of times before. It's all from

01:05:29.710 --> 01:05:31.409
a book. And you're doing this. We're all doing

01:05:31.409 --> 01:05:35.869
it from a book. But you're watching this over

01:05:35.869 --> 01:05:42.250
three hours. You're watching this thing. And

01:05:42.250 --> 01:05:47.730
then afterwards, you excitedly watch another

01:05:47.730 --> 01:05:52.670
three hours of this ball moving about. And then

01:05:52.670 --> 01:05:57.300
after that. Another three hours. And then there's

01:05:57.300 --> 01:06:00.900
commentary for an hour afterwards. Like a debrief.

01:06:01.440 --> 01:06:04.559
Let's talk about what we just saw there. The

01:06:04.559 --> 01:06:06.860
amazing thing about ESPN is they've been able

01:06:06.860 --> 01:06:11.690
to create a 24 -hour news cycle around... just

01:06:11.690 --> 01:06:14.289
sports like they oh yeah sports is the whole

01:06:14.289 --> 01:06:17.769
world and they're just covering that world yeah

01:06:17.769 --> 01:06:20.590
it blows my mind and people can get statistical

01:06:20.590 --> 01:06:23.070
thinking when it's about their sports team or

01:06:23.070 --> 01:06:25.690
gambling or whatever so people have the capabilities

01:06:25.690 --> 01:06:29.750
it's some people sound like geniuses if they

01:06:29.750 --> 01:06:32.809
if they were articulating any other subject as

01:06:32.809 --> 01:06:36.489
well as they're like talking about their local

01:06:36.489 --> 01:06:40.480
team or whatever and this is they're imagining

01:06:40.480 --> 01:06:45.400
oh my gosh they have mirror neurons feeling like

01:06:45.400 --> 01:06:48.960
it's them catching the ball in the end zone and

01:06:48.960 --> 01:06:53.840
oh my goodness and this is so exciting this thing

01:06:53.840 --> 01:06:56.239
then there's like a talk about it like an hour

01:06:56.239 --> 01:06:58.900
beforehand who's gonna win this and all that

01:06:58.900 --> 01:07:05.900
and then at the end of this 11 hours that you

01:07:05.900 --> 01:07:09.750
get together and do this then Whichever teams

01:07:09.750 --> 01:07:17.110
lost that week, their state will have higher

01:07:17.110 --> 01:07:22.130
domestic abuse rates that week. That's how much

01:07:22.130 --> 01:07:26.389
people care about this fucking ball -moving game.

01:07:26.849 --> 01:07:29.070
I get it. Super Bowl Sunday is one of the highest

01:07:29.070 --> 01:07:32.429
domestic abuse rates of the year. It's crazy.

01:07:32.849 --> 01:07:38.079
And I could tell. Your average person would be

01:07:38.079 --> 01:07:41.260
like, imagine interrupting that and being like,

01:07:41.420 --> 01:07:44.460
hey, does anyone want to watch a 10 -minute YouTube

01:07:44.460 --> 01:07:48.440
video with incredible effects that shows the

01:07:48.440 --> 01:07:52.099
origins of the universe and how all of this came

01:07:52.099 --> 01:07:55.699
into being and how we know it? And they'd be

01:07:55.699 --> 01:07:59.099
like, that's boring. They would not have the

01:07:59.099 --> 01:08:03.460
time for that 10 -minute. You can literally understand.

01:08:04.640 --> 01:08:09.599
learn about all of the existence that got us

01:08:09.599 --> 01:08:12.820
here. Nah, that would be a boring 10 minutes.

01:08:13.320 --> 01:08:16.699
And you don't have to pick one or the other.

01:08:16.840 --> 01:08:20.840
You can have your football and we can do it on

01:08:20.840 --> 01:08:23.199
another day. How about another day? Can I sit

01:08:23.199 --> 01:08:27.319
you down for 10 minutes to see Morgan Freeman

01:08:27.319 --> 01:08:32.319
fucking narrating the best fucking CGI of the

01:08:32.319 --> 01:08:37.279
world? understanding how a sun forms and it's

01:08:37.279 --> 01:08:40.939
it's incredible it's there there's just like

01:08:40.939 --> 01:08:45.220
a real deviation and i get it i get that it's

01:08:45.220 --> 01:08:47.880
such a social thing and it's a way that people

01:08:47.880 --> 01:08:52.739
connect around can connect at all ages and root

01:08:52.739 --> 01:08:56.720
for your home team and be enthusiastic i think

01:08:56.720 --> 01:08:59.800
that it's lovely that people find ways to gather

01:08:59.800 --> 01:09:02.699
and get excited about things You could make this

01:09:02.699 --> 01:09:07.460
same argument about, I could have made that same

01:09:07.460 --> 01:09:09.920
argument about a music festival or something.

01:09:10.119 --> 01:09:13.819
Oh, it's just a guy playing a thing. I get it.

01:09:14.000 --> 01:09:15.819
It's just a guy fucking talking into a microphone

01:09:15.819 --> 01:09:19.539
for an hour. You could make anything boring if

01:09:19.539 --> 01:09:27.420
you wanted to. But the crazy thing to me, so

01:09:27.420 --> 01:09:31.979
I get. why people like football. And I appreciate

01:09:31.979 --> 01:09:36.300
it more as an adult, too, than I used to. I'm

01:09:36.300 --> 01:09:39.640
happy now for my family when the Packers win

01:09:39.640 --> 01:09:41.359
because I know they're happy and everything.

01:09:42.119 --> 01:09:47.800
But the reason why I can appreciate that is because

01:09:47.800 --> 01:09:51.960
it's so... fucking predictable it's just so predictable

01:09:51.960 --> 01:09:54.319
and there's nothing inherently good about football

01:09:54.319 --> 01:09:57.399
it's just the like if you go to australia they're

01:09:57.399 --> 01:10:00.300
doing the same thing with rugby or in other places

01:10:00.300 --> 01:10:03.000
it's soccer so there's nothing like inherently

01:10:03.000 --> 01:10:08.539
yes this is we've reached the pinnacle of this

01:10:08.539 --> 01:10:12.859
objectively good sport like people that are really

01:10:12.859 --> 01:10:17.180
into football perhaps find a game of cricket

01:10:17.180 --> 01:10:21.279
to be as boring as i just described i like baseball

01:10:21.279 --> 01:10:23.920
one of the things about baseball everybody says

01:10:23.920 --> 01:10:27.300
baseball is boring and until suddenly it isn't

01:10:27.300 --> 01:10:30.239
yeah yeah but i think science is like that too

01:10:30.239 --> 01:10:33.739
yeah science it really is pretty fucking boring

01:10:33.739 --> 01:10:37.260
if you're in the trenches doing down in the trenches

01:10:37.260 --> 01:10:40.619
for sure Until there's a big discovery, and then

01:10:40.619 --> 01:10:43.520
suddenly it's not boring anymore. But I think

01:10:43.520 --> 01:10:46.619
some of it is self -defense stuff. I think some

01:10:46.619 --> 01:10:51.340
of it is insecurities and stuff. I have this

01:10:51.340 --> 01:10:55.840
idea of why people groan at puns. I'm not a pun.

01:10:56.380 --> 01:11:00.100
guy myself, but I appreciate a good pun here

01:11:00.100 --> 01:11:05.399
and there. I'm not as good of an improviser.

01:11:05.420 --> 01:11:09.819
I'm not as quick of a thinker as some people.

01:11:10.720 --> 01:11:16.319
I'm a deeper, more contemplative person, so there's

01:11:16.319 --> 01:11:22.779
trade -offs there. I think that with puns, it

01:11:22.779 --> 01:11:25.979
sometimes takes a second. To get that you missed

01:11:25.979 --> 01:11:29.800
it. And so it's like a way that it's like a self

01:11:29.800 --> 01:11:34.520
-conscious defense where you groan to conspicuously

01:11:34.520 --> 01:11:38.560
advertise to the social group like, hey, I did

01:11:38.560 --> 01:11:41.340
get that. I just didn't think that it was funny.

01:11:41.939 --> 01:11:44.840
You roll your eyes. But it was actually a solid

01:11:44.840 --> 01:11:47.500
joke. And I think that there's something like

01:11:47.500 --> 01:11:50.260
that with science as well. I think it's true

01:11:50.260 --> 01:11:53.479
with comedy in general. Getting a crowd to laugh

01:11:53.479 --> 01:11:56.000
the first time of the night is like getting them

01:11:56.000 --> 01:11:59.640
to have a mini ego death. Yeah, in a way, yeah.

01:11:59.819 --> 01:12:03.020
You have to get them to be like, okay, it's okay

01:12:03.020 --> 01:12:06.020
to laugh at this. Yeah, yeah. You don't have

01:12:06.020 --> 01:12:09.079
to pretend it's not funny. You don't have to

01:12:09.079 --> 01:12:13.100
sit there. I think Pete actually, Pete Holmes

01:12:13.100 --> 01:12:15.000
is the guy that said this one time where it's

01:12:15.000 --> 01:12:19.329
like you go. To perform. And everybody there

01:12:19.329 --> 01:12:21.529
is like the funniest person in their friend group.

01:12:22.029 --> 01:12:25.430
And they're all there. Oh, what do you got for

01:12:25.430 --> 01:12:30.710
me? Yeah. You avoided that with your non -traditional

01:12:30.710 --> 01:12:33.489
psychedelic show. You keep talking about how

01:12:33.489 --> 01:12:35.949
the psychedelic crowd is so great. And I think

01:12:35.949 --> 01:12:38.869
that's one of the reasons, right? Yeah. They've

01:12:38.869 --> 01:12:42.069
already had their ego deaths, man. Yeah. Yeah.

01:12:42.829 --> 01:12:47.729
It's also just. I'm trying to develop new styles.

01:12:47.909 --> 01:12:51.430
So a lot of the stuff, especially the show Stand

01:12:51.430 --> 01:12:57.930
Up Science, that was my main thing before COVID.

01:12:58.470 --> 01:13:02.710
And I've reformatted it and I'm bringing that

01:13:02.710 --> 01:13:06.840
back. next year and but with different themes

01:13:06.840 --> 01:13:09.319
and so it used to be just like random scientist

01:13:09.319 --> 01:13:11.260
two different scientists in every city that i

01:13:11.260 --> 01:13:14.260
went to and it was like half comedy and half

01:13:14.260 --> 01:13:17.319
science and two different things and this is

01:13:17.319 --> 01:13:21.520
more like me doing a 45 minute science inspired

01:13:21.520 --> 01:13:25.739
philosophical comedy set but it's definitely

01:13:25.739 --> 01:13:29.319
there's a lot more it's heavier it's more information

01:13:29.319 --> 01:13:33.170
dense than Could teeter toward the more funny

01:13:33.170 --> 01:13:38.670
talk thing. And then I have a panel conversation

01:13:38.670 --> 01:13:43.829
with scientists afterwards. I select based on

01:13:43.829 --> 01:13:49.489
fields that are relevant to the subject matter.

01:13:49.890 --> 01:13:54.729
And then it's just... So it's more... sciency

01:13:54.729 --> 01:13:57.949
it's more informative the stand -up part is more

01:13:57.949 --> 01:14:00.630
informative than a regular stand -up comedy and

01:14:00.630 --> 01:14:04.569
then the panel is funnier than a regular science

01:14:04.569 --> 01:14:08.829
panel or something so it's so it's meant to be

01:14:08.829 --> 01:14:14.810
like 50 science 50 comedy and so it's always

01:14:14.810 --> 01:14:18.470
like some people show up expecting it to be a

01:14:18.470 --> 01:14:21.880
little more funny or whatever and then it can

01:14:21.880 --> 01:14:26.439
go both ways too sometimes like the psychedelic

01:14:26.439 --> 01:14:31.399
show like that you saw last night that's me doing

01:14:31.399 --> 01:14:35.720
more funny stories then i i took some questions

01:14:35.720 --> 01:14:40.039
so i got into some more information type stuff

01:14:40.039 --> 01:14:44.239
but sometimes if i just didn't like because some

01:14:44.239 --> 01:14:47.619
people know that i sometimes integrate a bunch

01:14:47.619 --> 01:14:50.380
of science into my shows so sometimes if i'm

01:14:50.380 --> 01:14:53.920
just doing comedy people are like oh i like i

01:14:53.920 --> 01:14:57.619
like brought some friends because of the information

01:14:57.619 --> 01:15:00.819
and stuff you know so i'm always trying to find

01:15:00.819 --> 01:15:03.479
that balance so hopefully after my specials come

01:15:03.479 --> 01:15:06.479
out and more people kind of know who i am and

01:15:06.479 --> 01:15:10.560
have a better idea of what to expect this these

01:15:10.560 --> 01:15:12.939
psychedelic specials are meant to be a proof

01:15:12.939 --> 01:15:16.369
of concept for a new kind of style that then

01:15:16.369 --> 01:15:20.550
i want to apply to different science topics and

01:15:20.550 --> 01:15:24.970
so hopefully people know and understand because

01:15:24.970 --> 01:15:28.289
i think that i think that stand -up comedy can

01:15:28.289 --> 01:15:33.029
be for myself a little limiting in terms of what

01:15:33.029 --> 01:15:36.989
i care about which is my favorite sound to hear

01:15:36.989 --> 01:15:40.789
is when getting laughs and stuff that's great

01:15:40.789 --> 01:15:47.380
and like Love getting a big laugh, but it doesn't,

01:15:47.380 --> 01:15:51.000
I don't think it inspires me as much as it does

01:15:51.000 --> 01:15:54.319
a lot of people. My favorite sound is when I

01:15:54.319 --> 01:16:00.560
hear someone go, huh. I know they just had, they

01:16:00.560 --> 01:16:04.439
just realized something about life that like

01:16:04.439 --> 01:16:08.779
connected a bunch of things in this way. Huh.

01:16:09.659 --> 01:16:13.640
And that's like really special to me. If I can

01:16:13.640 --> 01:16:16.739
get more of those, and I don't know how to make

01:16:16.739 --> 01:16:20.640
it, but then because it's a comedy show, people

01:16:20.640 --> 01:16:23.539
are used to hearing laughter. So as a comedian,

01:16:23.640 --> 01:16:27.479
it's always the hard parts, being on stage, getting,

01:16:27.579 --> 01:16:32.159
it's been like three minutes of me not even intending

01:16:32.159 --> 01:16:35.000
to have a laugh, not even trying for a laugh.

01:16:36.109 --> 01:16:38.970
That was one thing I noticed about something

01:16:38.970 --> 01:16:40.890
you have heard you talk about in the past was,

01:16:40.970 --> 01:16:42.949
like, you used to be really focused on, like,

01:16:43.689 --> 01:16:46.649
laughs per minute and stuff like that. And then

01:16:46.649 --> 01:16:49.369
I noticed last night, like, you didn't even go

01:16:49.369 --> 01:16:52.430
for, like, an opening joke like most comics would

01:16:52.430 --> 01:16:56.470
do to just break the ice or whatever. It was

01:16:56.470 --> 01:16:58.810
very clear to me that you were like, I'm just

01:16:58.810 --> 01:17:01.590
going to have a conversation with you guys. We're

01:17:01.590 --> 01:17:03.470
going to ease into this, and we're going to have

01:17:03.470 --> 01:17:06.949
a good time. It was fucking great. Yeah, yeah.

01:17:07.029 --> 01:17:10.909
Thanks. I loved it. Yeah. But it also, it was

01:17:10.909 --> 01:17:14.729
very non -traditional in the sense that, just

01:17:14.729 --> 01:17:18.369
like what you were saying, it was, I noticed

01:17:18.369 --> 01:17:20.789
that, can you talk a little bit about, and then

01:17:20.789 --> 01:17:23.130
I want to go back again for a minute, but can

01:17:23.130 --> 01:17:25.149
you talk a little bit about that shift that you

01:17:25.149 --> 01:17:29.229
had from trying to just get all these laughs

01:17:29.229 --> 01:17:33.529
per minute to relaxing into this new style that

01:17:33.529 --> 01:17:37.260
you do? so when i started wanting to so it actually

01:17:37.260 --> 01:17:43.300
didn't even occur to me to put science but make

01:17:43.300 --> 01:17:47.239
put any of the science concepts into my act ever

01:17:47.239 --> 01:17:50.800
i was just reading science books as a hobby it

01:17:50.800 --> 01:17:53.619
like it's so weird the thought never even crossed

01:17:53.619 --> 01:17:55.960
my mind like oh maybe i could put some of these

01:17:55.960 --> 01:18:01.100
concepts in my comedy until i like caught the

01:18:01.100 --> 01:18:05.010
break i basically i had like a five -year plan

01:18:05.010 --> 01:18:08.829
when i started comedy and i accomplished those

01:18:08.829 --> 01:18:12.829
goals that i had i exceeded them and then i was

01:18:12.829 --> 01:18:17.210
what do i want to do with this and also i wanted

01:18:17.210 --> 01:18:19.430
to think about performing internationally more

01:18:19.430 --> 01:18:21.890
where there's like a lot more like themed shows

01:18:21.890 --> 01:18:25.310
and i was like yeah maybe i'll try doing some

01:18:25.310 --> 01:18:27.770
science jokes and first it was just like oh there's

01:18:27.770 --> 01:18:30.090
all these funny animal mating behavior things

01:18:30.090 --> 01:18:33.960
so that's like an easy transition from dick jokes

01:18:33.960 --> 01:18:38.340
to like sciencey dick jokes and anatomy is always

01:18:38.340 --> 01:18:42.960
hilarious yeah and which maybe i should i did

01:18:42.960 --> 01:18:45.399
a special mating season on netflix but maybe

01:18:45.399 --> 01:18:48.300
i should do some i should do another mating one

01:18:48.300 --> 01:18:51.340
sometimes because it actually is it's just it's

01:18:51.340 --> 01:18:54.619
just like all the gender war culture war shit

01:18:54.619 --> 01:18:57.539
we've got So annoying that I'm like, I don't

01:18:57.539 --> 01:19:02.079
want to. We need to have one day a month where

01:19:02.079 --> 01:19:05.699
we have the great gender war and we all yell

01:19:05.699 --> 01:19:09.159
about dicks and vaginas and who can have them

01:19:09.159 --> 01:19:12.539
and what we do with them. And then the rest of

01:19:12.539 --> 01:19:15.439
the month we just get to move on with our lives

01:19:15.439 --> 01:19:19.560
and do the other things that need to be done

01:19:19.560 --> 01:19:23.359
in life. But mostly just move on. Yeah. I don't

01:19:23.359 --> 01:19:30.140
know. But there is, anyhow, there's so much great,

01:19:30.239 --> 01:19:35.220
but there is great stuff in there with just the

01:19:35.220 --> 01:19:38.399
way insects mate and stuff. It's just wildly

01:19:38.399 --> 01:19:41.960
fascinating. But so that seemed like a little

01:19:41.960 --> 01:19:44.720
inroad. And so then I'd try out like a couple

01:19:44.720 --> 01:19:48.399
jokes. And then I realized to set up this concept

01:19:48.399 --> 01:19:53.449
for this joke. It's just taking too long to get

01:19:53.449 --> 01:19:57.229
those laughs per minute. So now it needs to be

01:19:57.229 --> 01:20:01.050
like a themed show because it needs to have a

01:20:01.050 --> 01:20:03.069
through line because if I'm going to put the

01:20:03.069 --> 01:20:05.729
work into setting it up, then there needs to

01:20:05.729 --> 01:20:09.750
be more payoffs. So instead, the way that I think

01:20:09.750 --> 01:20:14.229
about it is, how do I create a lens? How do I

01:20:14.229 --> 01:20:17.729
have... This is my thesis kind of statement.

01:20:19.869 --> 01:20:22.510
I'll explain that, and that's going to take a

01:20:22.510 --> 01:20:26.390
little more effort and attention span. But then

01:20:26.390 --> 01:20:29.710
once we have that new lens created, now we get

01:20:29.710 --> 01:20:32.489
to play in my world that I've created for you.

01:20:33.529 --> 01:20:35.890
It's beautiful. It's a beautiful world you've

01:20:35.890 --> 01:20:38.989
created. Thanks. So I want to go back for a minute

01:20:38.989 --> 01:20:41.109
because you're holding on to this secret for

01:20:41.109 --> 01:20:44.329
a decade that you want to be a stand -up comic.

01:20:44.770 --> 01:20:47.970
Are you writing? When I was a teenager, I started

01:20:47.970 --> 01:20:52.090
writing, yeah. Yeah, I would say, because I don't

01:20:52.090 --> 01:20:55.090
think I started in eighth grade. No, I think

01:20:55.090 --> 01:20:59.729
I was in high school, so I think I was like 14,

01:20:59.989 --> 01:21:02.609
I think. Might have been a little earlier than

01:21:02.609 --> 01:21:06.750
that. But I remember writing a lot when I was

01:21:06.750 --> 01:21:11.810
14. Was that therapeutic for you? Yeah, and it

01:21:11.810 --> 01:21:18.010
was inspiring, and I felt, maybe I'm on to something

01:21:18.010 --> 01:21:24.489
here. And yeah, it was nice. But yeah, I liked

01:21:24.489 --> 01:21:28.069
it. So I had, it's another reason why I took

01:21:28.069 --> 01:21:30.630
off quickly when I started, because I had already,

01:21:30.810 --> 01:21:37.229
not only had I been studying comedy for, let's

01:21:37.229 --> 01:21:41.550
see, 14 years, like watching stand -up comedy,

01:21:41.609 --> 01:21:45.010
like basically every day, like watching, you

01:21:45.010 --> 01:21:48.630
know, like at least. I never understand comics

01:21:48.630 --> 01:21:52.890
that don't watch a lot of comedy. I don't anymore,

01:21:53.109 --> 01:21:57.170
but I did for a long time. I can see that. Once

01:21:57.170 --> 01:22:00.130
you're in the world, it becomes this thing where

01:22:00.130 --> 01:22:05.449
it's like, I'm going to work at home on a Saturday

01:22:05.449 --> 01:22:10.029
night. But not being fans of other comedians,

01:22:10.029 --> 01:22:16.189
I think, is something that baffles me. think

01:22:16.189 --> 01:22:20.729
that like loving comedy enough to do it like

01:22:20.729 --> 01:22:24.609
how are you not loving what other comedians have

01:22:24.609 --> 01:22:27.869
done at some point in your life i like i said

01:22:27.869 --> 01:22:30.090
i get once you get to a certain point like it's

01:22:30.090 --> 01:22:31.789
kind of like after college people stop listening

01:22:31.789 --> 01:22:34.189
to new music a lot of the time too i'm not one

01:22:34.189 --> 01:22:37.390
of those people but yeah but it's you you like

01:22:37.390 --> 01:22:41.970
what you like and yeah in certain and there's

01:22:41.970 --> 01:22:43.810
definitely aspects of my life where that's true

01:22:43.810 --> 01:22:47.829
just not with music or whatever but one thing

01:22:47.829 --> 01:22:49.770
that struck me about everything that you've been

01:22:49.770 --> 01:22:53.930
saying is that you started with a little bit

01:22:53.930 --> 01:23:00.170
of animosity towards the ritual the group think

01:23:00.170 --> 01:23:03.810
the group think yes and now it's become more

01:23:03.810 --> 01:23:05.850
of something that you really want to understand

01:23:05.850 --> 01:23:12.210
yeah um yeah so i really something that i really

01:23:12.210 --> 01:23:16.590
like i've been tickled by and thinking a lot

01:23:16.590 --> 01:23:20.949
about recently is there's these Mantui people

01:23:20.949 --> 01:23:24.789
in Indonesia. This is just like an example of

01:23:24.789 --> 01:23:27.789
how I like thinking through these things. So

01:23:27.789 --> 01:23:32.930
these Mantui people in Indonesia, they have this

01:23:32.930 --> 01:23:40.310
ghost crocodile that sometimes attacks and it

01:23:40.310 --> 01:23:43.930
will make you sick. They have a waterborne virus.

01:23:44.569 --> 01:23:51.869
But what happens is the shaman comes in. Yeah,

01:23:52.470 --> 01:23:57.050
animism where the shaman comes in, tells them,

01:23:57.069 --> 01:24:01.310
hey, a ghost crocodile got you. There's herbal

01:24:01.310 --> 01:24:08.970
this and that, rest, some chants, and they usually

01:24:08.970 --> 01:24:13.880
figure out that. what did you do wrong to to

01:24:13.880 --> 01:24:18.699
where the ghost crocodile is like punishing you

01:24:18.699 --> 01:24:23.300
or your family for for this and it's usually

01:24:23.300 --> 01:24:27.340
you figure out that it's has because they're

01:24:27.340 --> 01:24:31.819
like a very egalitarian and one of the ways in

01:24:31.819 --> 01:24:36.369
which you sort of police that is like having

01:24:36.369 --> 01:24:38.550
rituals like this where it's like hey have you

01:24:38.550 --> 01:24:42.170
been too greedy maybe the ghost crocodile can't

01:24:42.170 --> 01:24:46.649
i've noticed like oftentimes when you're like

01:24:46.649 --> 01:24:50.670
carving a boar like you often take the good slice

01:24:50.670 --> 01:24:53.210
for yourself have you been a little stingy or

01:24:53.210 --> 01:24:56.869
whatever and i go oh yeah i guess i have maybe

01:24:56.869 --> 01:24:59.390
sometimes been a little stingy and so then they

01:24:59.930 --> 01:25:02.170
that family makes an offering to the community

01:25:02.170 --> 01:25:05.250
that was so sorry and then the community goes

01:25:05.250 --> 01:25:08.170
oh it's okay and then they all get together and

01:25:08.170 --> 01:25:13.529
do a ceremonial like healing dance together now

01:25:13.529 --> 01:25:19.630
that all might seem crazy to an outsider if you

01:25:20.109 --> 01:25:22.909
you have the objective reality that what happens

01:25:22.909 --> 01:25:25.350
is you just got a water virus but now let's break

01:25:25.350 --> 01:25:29.710
down all of the mechanisms and why and so first

01:25:29.710 --> 01:25:33.109
off there there's certain beliefs that are prone

01:25:33.109 --> 01:25:36.949
to take off but also but also there would have

01:25:36.949 --> 01:25:40.520
been other beliefs that were like spitball and

01:25:40.520 --> 01:25:44.899
trial and error and so beliefs the there's cultural

01:25:44.899 --> 01:25:48.399
evolution as well in terms of some beliefs get

01:25:48.399 --> 01:25:52.319
selected for more than others and sometimes it's

01:25:52.319 --> 01:25:55.840
because they serve these hidden utilities that

01:25:55.840 --> 01:25:58.939
you may not be privy to but it just works and

01:25:58.939 --> 01:26:04.000
so imagine a world before knowledge of infectious

01:26:04.000 --> 01:26:07.079
disease in modern medicine and knowledge of these

01:26:07.079 --> 01:26:11.039
germs If you, like even today, try to explain

01:26:11.039 --> 01:26:13.819
to a hunter -gatherer, hey, this water, there's

01:26:13.819 --> 01:26:16.560
these worms in it. And they're like, what are

01:26:16.560 --> 01:26:18.739
you talking about? I can't see the worms. You're

01:26:18.739 --> 01:26:25.880
crazy. It's very counterintuitive. And so, first

01:26:25.880 --> 01:26:29.640
of all, the ghost crocodile, so they're learning

01:26:29.640 --> 01:26:33.340
there's some association with water, had something

01:26:33.340 --> 01:26:37.569
to do with water. Crocodile is this. archetypal

01:26:37.569 --> 01:26:42.149
like water threat and it's very salient it's

01:26:42.149 --> 01:26:46.689
an easy story to tell a big crocodile is a very

01:26:46.689 --> 01:26:53.430
captivating scary thing and and then what it

01:26:53.430 --> 01:26:57.390
allows so they're tuning in a little bit getting

01:26:57.390 --> 01:27:03.729
a little closer than say a ghost bird or something

01:27:03.729 --> 01:27:11.119
like that and and so then the shaman and it was

01:27:11.119 --> 01:27:13.680
like often a community leader and so it will

01:27:13.680 --> 01:27:16.779
be like hey we should stay away from this particular

01:27:16.779 --> 01:27:20.420
water source for a while there's a ghost crocodile

01:27:20.420 --> 01:27:23.300
around there that's pretty useful to switch up

01:27:23.300 --> 01:27:26.920
your water source if you just had that illness

01:27:26.920 --> 01:27:29.659
and then you can pick up on patterns of when

01:27:29.659 --> 01:27:32.560
the ghost crocodile seems to come out the most

01:27:32.560 --> 01:27:35.300
turns out after a heavy rain as when the ghost

01:27:35.300 --> 01:27:38.220
crocodile gets really active they don't necessarily

01:27:38.220 --> 01:27:40.880
know it's because that's when dung and stuff

01:27:40.880 --> 01:27:44.359
from animal species gets in gets in and gets

01:27:44.359 --> 01:27:47.180
in waterways and and you're going to be more

01:27:47.180 --> 01:27:52.079
prone to pathogens and but you can pick up on

01:27:52.079 --> 01:27:55.699
good and bad times to avoid the ghost crocodile,

01:27:55.819 --> 01:27:59.220
areas where the ghost crocodile tends to hang

01:27:59.220 --> 01:28:04.779
out more. And then you have, so whatever herbal

01:28:04.779 --> 01:28:08.020
remedies or whatever may or may not do something,

01:28:08.159 --> 01:28:11.340
I haven't looked too terribly into the idea,

01:28:11.420 --> 01:28:15.600
but... But anything that can make you psychologically

01:28:15.600 --> 01:28:19.439
feel as if everything's okay is going to be better

01:28:19.439 --> 01:28:24.520
for healing. I believe it's going to work. And

01:28:24.520 --> 01:28:30.500
the mechanism of action is that stress mobilizes

01:28:30.500 --> 01:28:35.560
energy away from long -term things for in the

01:28:35.560 --> 01:28:38.579
moment to get you out of danger, to help you.

01:28:39.689 --> 01:28:41.810
hunt the thing or whatever else it mobilizes

01:28:41.810 --> 01:28:45.109
energy to the muscles so it takes things away

01:28:45.109 --> 01:28:47.329
from anything that isn't necessary in that moment

01:28:47.329 --> 01:28:50.029
being like immune system this is why they do

01:28:50.029 --> 01:28:52.510
double blind studies with drugs right because

01:28:52.510 --> 01:28:54.789
they give one group the drug and they give one

01:28:54.789 --> 01:28:58.029
group a placebo pill yeah so they everybody thinks

01:28:58.029 --> 01:29:01.449
they're getting the drug yeah yeah and then there's

01:29:01.449 --> 01:29:03.729
different things that add to a placebo effect

01:29:03.729 --> 01:29:08.010
how big is the pill is the person giving it to

01:29:08.010 --> 01:29:12.289
you wearing a lab coat and stuff and is it invasive

01:29:12.289 --> 01:29:14.789
did you have to go through a whole thing for

01:29:14.789 --> 01:29:21.149
it there's a there was a a heart valve years

01:29:21.149 --> 01:29:24.270
ago where they didn't know if it was working

01:29:24.270 --> 01:29:28.750
or better than chance and so they had three groups

01:29:28.750 --> 01:29:32.010
they had a no treatment group a surgery group

01:29:32.010 --> 01:29:33.829
and then they had another group of people where

01:29:33.829 --> 01:29:37.609
they cut people open put them under and just

01:29:37.609 --> 01:29:39.689
stitched them back up so they thought that they

01:29:39.689 --> 01:29:44.050
got a surgery and that group actually did the

01:29:44.050 --> 01:29:50.170
best because of the invasiveness and and because

01:29:50.170 --> 01:29:54.029
then you think that you believe that i got the

01:29:54.029 --> 01:29:58.189
thing that that fixed me and this is Because

01:29:58.189 --> 01:30:02.649
the immune system is, and I also have to be careful

01:30:02.649 --> 01:30:05.109
with this because another thing to explain is

01:30:05.109 --> 01:30:08.670
there's reasons why vaccines are special and

01:30:08.670 --> 01:30:11.789
important in our modern world because we are

01:30:11.789 --> 01:30:16.050
exposed to way more pathogens because of the

01:30:16.050 --> 01:30:19.489
human impacts on the environment than we ever

01:30:19.489 --> 01:30:21.869
have in our 300 ,000 years. There are modern

01:30:21.869 --> 01:30:24.090
problems that require modern solutions, and this

01:30:24.090 --> 01:30:27.350
is what we've figured out how we can help. guide

01:30:27.350 --> 01:30:30.270
the immune system to give it a heads up. It's

01:30:30.270 --> 01:30:33.310
like, it's truly, it's funny all the conspiracy

01:30:33.310 --> 01:30:35.170
people that think they're breaking through the

01:30:35.170 --> 01:30:37.729
matrix. The closest to breaking the matrix is

01:30:37.729 --> 01:30:40.930
giving the cheat code to your immune system for

01:30:40.930 --> 01:30:42.890
defense for a potential threat that it's going

01:30:42.890 --> 01:30:45.750
to have. Hank Green likes to say that humans

01:30:45.750 --> 01:30:49.770
are just trying to solve problems and then when

01:30:49.770 --> 01:30:52.890
they do, they create other problems. Yeah. and

01:30:52.890 --> 01:30:56.069
there's always going to be new problems showing

01:30:56.069 --> 01:31:02.210
up yeah hank green's great but so if and so then

01:31:02.210 --> 01:31:05.970
the sympathetic the parasympathetic response

01:31:05.970 --> 01:31:09.689
system that that re -regulates everything gets

01:31:09.689 --> 01:31:12.130
the immune functioning back going again so your

01:31:12.130 --> 01:31:14.710
immune system uses an incredible amount of energy

01:31:14.710 --> 01:31:18.819
so if you relax if you aren't stressed out That

01:31:18.819 --> 01:31:22.039
allows for more energy for your immune system

01:31:22.039 --> 01:31:25.720
to do its work, essentially. This is the kind

01:31:25.720 --> 01:31:29.680
of brass tacks, like simple mechanisms. There's

01:31:29.680 --> 01:31:31.520
a little more going on. There's actual physiological

01:31:31.520 --> 01:31:35.560
reasons. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They used to prescribe

01:31:35.560 --> 01:31:42.300
Oseblup, placebo backwards, and then that was

01:31:42.300 --> 01:31:45.260
eventually considered unethical, but you'd give

01:31:45.260 --> 01:31:48.680
it to people and it cured a lot of things. And

01:31:48.680 --> 01:31:51.060
then doctors could be like, oh, you got Osoflop.

01:31:51.159 --> 01:31:53.500
And that's why all this pseudoscience, it does,

01:31:53.600 --> 01:31:56.439
people do think it works. Oh, of course, it worked

01:31:56.439 --> 01:32:02.239
for me. Yeah, yeah. My mom was always into every,

01:32:02.319 --> 01:32:06.659
like, little homeopathic this and that thing.

01:32:06.720 --> 01:32:12.640
My whole life, I've seen that stuff. And so placebo,

01:32:12.960 --> 01:32:16.479
so a shaman coming in, doing these rituals that

01:32:16.479 --> 01:32:20.409
leads to, a sense of comfort and relief. Now,

01:32:20.449 --> 01:32:24.770
let's talk about why the blaming. So this is

01:32:24.770 --> 01:32:28.829
rather random. They did not do anything to deserve

01:32:28.829 --> 01:32:32.710
a waterborne virus. Yeah, they didn't take extra

01:32:32.710 --> 01:32:36.449
bore. That was bullshit. Yeah, yeah. But its

01:32:36.449 --> 01:32:40.229
interest is so, what that does do is it preserves

01:32:40.229 --> 01:32:45.430
this idea of, so we have this idea of, that's

01:32:45.430 --> 01:32:49.970
cognitively, relax i think a lot of these are

01:32:49.970 --> 01:32:53.670
outcomes of mitigating uh overactive chronic

01:32:53.670 --> 01:32:58.470
stress system that was built on top of some we

01:32:58.470 --> 01:33:01.229
have a stress response system that was built

01:33:01.229 --> 01:33:04.829
in mammals that don't think as far as ahead of

01:33:04.829 --> 01:33:07.689
things as a and contemplate things that aren't

01:33:07.689 --> 01:33:09.949
happening in the moment and like sweating about

01:33:09.949 --> 01:33:14.220
those things and so we have these these like

01:33:14.220 --> 01:33:17.319
ideas of a just world in our mind that if you

01:33:17.319 --> 01:33:22.979
do everything right in life then then things

01:33:22.979 --> 01:33:26.899
will go right and because brains that tended

01:33:26.899 --> 01:33:31.739
to think that way tended to be more involved

01:33:31.739 --> 01:33:36.979
and have more confidence in life enough so that

01:33:36.979 --> 01:33:40.579
it was even though it was inaccurate and the

01:33:40.579 --> 01:33:43.979
world isn't that way believing that got people

01:33:43.979 --> 01:33:48.380
where they are and so and then there's these

01:33:48.380 --> 01:33:51.399
like fundamental attribution differences that

01:33:51.399 --> 01:33:54.279
are also self -serving and differentiating for

01:33:54.279 --> 01:33:59.119
like in and out groups where basically if something

01:33:59.119 --> 01:34:02.460
good happens to you you earned it if something

01:34:02.460 --> 01:34:05.539
bad happens to you it's bad luck if If something

01:34:05.539 --> 01:34:08.600
bad happens to someone else, they did something

01:34:08.600 --> 01:34:10.260
wrong. Well, just believing that is comforting.

01:34:10.479 --> 01:34:13.659
Yeah. If something good happens to others, they

01:34:13.659 --> 01:34:17.140
just got lucky. Self -serving, it helps prop

01:34:17.140 --> 01:34:21.520
up your ego and everything. And so then, and

01:34:21.520 --> 01:34:23.479
the downside is there's all this victim blaming

01:34:23.479 --> 01:34:27.079
and stuff that happens. And you're blaming someone

01:34:27.079 --> 01:34:30.140
inappropriately for a waterborne virus because

01:34:30.140 --> 01:34:34.140
that's soothing to others. Right. It gets slippery.

01:34:34.970 --> 01:34:38.409
But that's one of the things that it does. Occasionally,

01:34:38.409 --> 01:34:43.430
you just have a metaphorical appendix. That blame

01:34:43.430 --> 01:34:47.710
may be useful. Oh, absolutely. But it's no longer

01:34:47.710 --> 01:34:50.770
useful, but it's still there. Our brains are

01:34:50.770 --> 01:34:52.869
not at all built for the world that we built

01:34:52.869 --> 01:34:57.649
for ourselves. At all. No. We have microscopes

01:34:57.649 --> 01:35:00.930
and medicine and stuff. Our biology has not caught

01:35:00.930 --> 01:35:04.779
up to our... environment no at all in no way

01:35:04.779 --> 01:35:09.060
yeah and i think that's that's where we see the

01:35:09.060 --> 01:35:11.819
rise in things like anxiety and depression and

01:35:11.819 --> 01:35:15.380
all all these things that i don't want to say

01:35:15.380 --> 01:35:17.460
they didn't exist before but they weren't as

01:35:17.460 --> 01:35:19.640
prevalent i think there's a lot of mismatches

01:35:19.640 --> 01:35:23.500
i also do a lot of we recognize it more we're

01:35:23.500 --> 01:35:26.039
living longer than humans had in the past too

01:35:26.039 --> 01:35:29.590
so it just it might also just be an outcome of

01:35:29.590 --> 01:35:32.310
living longer and then having to think further

01:35:32.310 --> 01:35:36.750
into the future about a longer life than humans

01:35:36.750 --> 01:35:42.569
ever had to in the past. Yeah, 45 more years

01:35:42.569 --> 01:35:47.069
than most any human in history. That's because

01:35:47.069 --> 01:35:50.189
of like child death and stuff. If you're gambling

01:35:50.189 --> 01:35:53.909
on it, but even still making it to adulthood,

01:35:53.970 --> 01:35:56.649
it was about 50, and now we're getting up to

01:35:56.649 --> 01:36:03.720
75. and so that's another 25 years longer if

01:36:03.720 --> 01:36:11.420
you make it into adulthood yeah and and so yeah

01:36:11.420 --> 01:36:13.479
and i had never really thought about it like

01:36:13.479 --> 01:36:17.159
that but that's yeah so a lot of i think a lot

01:36:17.159 --> 01:36:20.899
of these features are about addressing a maladaptive

01:36:20.899 --> 01:36:26.729
stress anxiety depression response that is Anxiety

01:36:26.729 --> 01:36:29.250
can be really useful in getting you to roll up

01:36:29.250 --> 01:36:32.149
your sleeves and get shit done. Depression can

01:36:32.149 --> 01:36:35.270
be really useful in helping you pump the brakes

01:36:35.270 --> 01:36:39.949
before investing the next X number of years of

01:36:39.949 --> 01:36:42.170
your life done the wrong project or whatever

01:36:42.170 --> 01:36:46.789
and can pump the brakes on actions so that you

01:36:46.789 --> 01:36:49.270
might get a little depressed when you're feeling

01:36:49.270 --> 01:36:55.069
sick because the ghost crocodile brought malaise

01:36:55.069 --> 01:36:57.770
into the household but depression is a great

01:36:57.770 --> 01:37:01.869
mechanism to keep you laying down and and so

01:37:01.869 --> 01:37:05.510
then a couple last little things just because

01:37:05.510 --> 01:37:08.170
i love the intricacy of all of this yeah yeah

01:37:08.170 --> 01:37:12.109
so then then that the family's confessing to

01:37:12.109 --> 01:37:15.729
a thing we're all doing something wrong once

01:37:15.729 --> 01:37:20.149
in a while and if you they can study this and

01:37:20.600 --> 01:37:23.739
churches and things that have confessionals is

01:37:23.739 --> 01:37:28.720
if you have a place to confess to allow to to

01:37:28.720 --> 01:37:35.659
drop baggage you can demarcate those things from

01:37:35.659 --> 01:37:38.220
yourself you can put them in the past they aren't

01:37:38.220 --> 01:37:41.140
a part of who you are anymore you can make amends

01:37:41.140 --> 01:37:45.279
and if you hold on to them they can accrue and

01:37:45.279 --> 01:37:47.560
once they add up and you have enough of these

01:37:48.629 --> 01:37:51.729
wrong doings you start thinking of yourself as

01:37:51.729 --> 01:37:55.329
a bad person and what's a bad person do bad things

01:37:55.329 --> 01:37:57.949
and it becomes a self -fulfilling thing and now

01:37:57.949 --> 01:38:00.890
you're getting more and more into anti -social

01:38:00.890 --> 01:38:03.770
and destructive behaviors because of this view

01:38:03.770 --> 01:38:06.210
that you have of yourself whereas having this

01:38:06.210 --> 01:38:08.130
confession where you're allowed to like make

01:38:08.130 --> 01:38:12.189
amends hey i'm sorry here's an offering is a

01:38:12.189 --> 01:38:16.489
way it is can be really therapeutic and can demark

01:38:16.489 --> 01:38:20.369
it and give you a fresh start and then and then

01:38:20.369 --> 01:38:25.550
lastly that that the rest of the community because

01:38:25.550 --> 01:38:28.609
of oh they got attacked for not sharing or whatever

01:38:28.609 --> 01:38:35.729
that's as the victim blaming is a bummer but

01:38:35.729 --> 01:38:40.449
accountability it's it's more that it's fake

01:38:41.260 --> 01:38:46.960
It's more, it negates worry. Otherwise, if you

01:38:46.960 --> 01:38:50.380
can just randomly be attacked by the ghost crocodile

01:38:50.380 --> 01:38:54.819
any time for any reason, that's a nightmarish

01:38:54.819 --> 01:38:58.439
world that you're living in. But because someone

01:38:58.439 --> 01:39:01.439
did something wrong, then all you have to do

01:39:01.439 --> 01:39:03.640
is do the right things and then it won't get

01:39:03.640 --> 01:39:07.460
you. And that brings a level of understanding.

01:39:08.619 --> 01:39:11.260
Why religion can be so comforting to people that

01:39:11.260 --> 01:39:16.340
I don't know that I've ever... This is not new

01:39:16.340 --> 01:39:18.819
stuff to me, but thinking about it that way is.

01:39:19.279 --> 01:39:23.500
Yeah. It's one of those, huh. Yeah, there you

01:39:23.500 --> 01:39:27.420
go. For sure, man. Yeah. And then the community

01:39:27.420 --> 01:39:31.840
comes, and they do a dance. They say, we forgive

01:39:31.840 --> 01:39:34.520
you, and we're going to do a dance to aid in

01:39:34.520 --> 01:39:38.210
your healing and this ceremonial thing. And that's

01:39:38.210 --> 01:39:42.470
bringing people together and playfully engaging

01:39:42.470 --> 01:39:47.270
with potential threats is a comforting way to

01:39:47.270 --> 01:39:52.970
address threats. Halloween was originated as

01:39:52.970 --> 01:39:54.970
you're going into winter, the deadliest time

01:39:54.970 --> 01:39:57.649
of year, and you're confronting ideas of death

01:39:57.649 --> 01:40:02.189
and ghosts and things and spirits. Spring equinox.

01:40:02.569 --> 01:40:06.800
Right. the constantine adopted like all of these

01:40:06.800 --> 01:40:09.539
pagan traditions and integrated them into christianity

01:40:09.539 --> 01:40:13.920
and it yeah it's yeah it's wild like how much

01:40:13.920 --> 01:40:17.159
they've changed from their past utility yeah

01:40:17.159 --> 01:40:20.439
yeah this happens a lot where it's like a lot

01:40:20.439 --> 01:40:25.640
of early astrology was like great like navigational

01:40:25.640 --> 01:40:28.760
tools and things like that now we have gps's

01:40:28.760 --> 01:40:31.859
that didn't make astrology go away and some people

01:40:31.859 --> 01:40:36.529
it made it because we still had an evolved preference

01:40:36.529 --> 01:40:39.710
to making sense of the stars and patterns because

01:40:39.710 --> 01:40:42.569
that was very adaptive in the past and now that

01:40:42.569 --> 01:40:45.489
isn't the rubber's not meeting the road anymore

01:40:45.489 --> 01:40:48.489
so you still have that feeling but it doesn't

01:40:48.489 --> 01:40:50.729
have the same utility in which it originated

01:40:50.729 --> 01:40:55.449
from and so it almost makes it seem more magical

01:40:55.449 --> 01:40:58.449
to a person because it's like it's there you

01:40:58.449 --> 01:41:01.170
can feel it but you don't even know why you're

01:41:01.170 --> 01:41:06.609
feeling it and it's like we had to create I think

01:41:06.609 --> 01:41:08.930
about like phone numbers. Like how many phone

01:41:08.930 --> 01:41:11.689
numbers did you have memorized as a kid versus

01:41:11.689 --> 01:41:16.250
now? And it creates this sense of wonderment

01:41:16.250 --> 01:41:18.390
isn't there, but the excitement of getting somebody's

01:41:18.390 --> 01:41:22.050
phone numbers. Yeah. Whereas like you could just

01:41:22.050 --> 01:41:24.529
look them up on Instagram or Facebook or like

01:41:24.529 --> 01:41:27.449
you're no more connected with somebody by having

01:41:27.449 --> 01:41:29.069
their phone number. Like they can block your

01:41:29.069 --> 01:41:31.550
phone number just as easy as they can block you

01:41:31.550 --> 01:41:34.520
on social media. there is this like getting a

01:41:34.520 --> 01:41:38.199
phone number still feels like a level of intimacy

01:41:38.199 --> 01:41:41.100
that isn't following each other on social media

01:41:41.100 --> 01:41:44.239
when really the connection is exactly the same

01:41:44.239 --> 01:41:48.680
it's no different than but because we used to

01:41:48.680 --> 01:41:50.979
have to like not only did we get phone numbers

01:41:50.979 --> 01:41:52.399
and that was the only thing that mattered we

01:41:52.399 --> 01:41:54.520
had to memorize those numbers if we wanted like

01:41:54.520 --> 01:41:58.680
i knew all my best friends phone number man so

01:41:58.680 --> 01:42:01.060
there's so much i feel like we could just literally

01:42:01.060 --> 01:42:04.529
talk for But there's a couple of things I know

01:42:04.529 --> 01:42:07.050
we have in common that I want to touch on before

01:42:07.050 --> 01:42:09.890
we exhaust everybody from listening anymore.

01:42:11.350 --> 01:42:15.189
They're on the edge of their seats. I hope so.

01:42:15.609 --> 01:42:18.449
I know I am. I keep having to scoot back just

01:42:18.449 --> 01:42:21.350
to not fuck up my back. But I know we've both

01:42:21.350 --> 01:42:25.770
been to the Creation Museum. Oh, yeah. And I

01:42:25.770 --> 01:42:28.770
went there very intentionally to study it as

01:42:28.770 --> 01:42:32.520
a student of museum studies. I see the guy riding

01:42:32.520 --> 01:42:36.560
the dinosaur and stuff. It's awesome. Humans

01:42:36.560 --> 01:42:39.539
and dinosaurs. Of course we were riding them.

01:42:40.220 --> 01:42:43.279
What strikes me, though, that's always struck

01:42:43.279 --> 01:42:44.899
me about this place, and I'm wondering what you

01:42:44.899 --> 01:42:47.439
think of this, is they use a lot of the same

01:42:47.439 --> 01:42:50.119
evidence to make their case that evolutionary

01:42:50.119 --> 01:42:52.720
biologists make to make the case for evolution.

01:42:53.119 --> 01:42:57.399
They have a model of Lucy right there. They don't

01:42:57.399 --> 01:42:59.779
pretend that stuff doesn't exist. They've integrated

01:42:59.779 --> 01:43:05.060
it all in. Yeah. That's what you do. You integrate

01:43:05.060 --> 01:43:09.960
it. You shift the goalposts and everything. Everything.

01:43:11.420 --> 01:43:18.399
Instead of innocent until proven guilty, it's

01:43:18.399 --> 01:43:24.239
beliefs. Beliefs. rather than knowledge and evidence

01:43:24.239 --> 01:43:28.479
-based systems, but religiosity is truth until

01:43:28.479 --> 01:43:33.079
proved metaphor. And then you always go, that

01:43:33.079 --> 01:43:36.640
part's a metaphor -ish thing, or here's how,

01:43:36.760 --> 01:43:40.380
and you twist around and make it all work. Yeah,

01:43:40.399 --> 01:43:42.640
they're trying to make the, I don't know, when

01:43:42.640 --> 01:43:44.460
I was there, they didn't have the Noah's Ark

01:43:44.460 --> 01:43:46.479
thing done. They had it done when I was there.

01:43:46.479 --> 01:43:49.220
Oh, wow. I've been twice. Yeah, I got to check

01:43:49.220 --> 01:43:51.060
out the Noah's Ark. They've gotten rid of the

01:43:51.060 --> 01:43:55.220
dinosaurs with saddles, though. Oh, yeah. That's

01:43:55.220 --> 01:43:58.600
a trade -off. I think there was still one triceratops

01:43:58.600 --> 01:44:00.399
in a corner that you could get on for a photo.

01:44:00.500 --> 01:44:05.039
Yeah, yeah. What was your motivation? And I think

01:44:05.039 --> 01:44:07.420
we brushed on it earlier. You used to have some

01:44:07.420 --> 01:44:10.840
animosity towards groupthink, maybe rebelliousness

01:44:10.840 --> 01:44:14.680
against religion. Yeah. And now it's turned into

01:44:14.680 --> 01:44:18.180
more of a fascination, I would say. Yeah, and

01:44:18.180 --> 01:44:23.100
trying to understand. My one stand -up science

01:44:23.100 --> 01:44:26.960
show that I debuted this year that I'll be doing

01:44:26.960 --> 01:44:31.840
next year is called Myth Understandings. So it's

01:44:31.840 --> 01:44:35.899
going back through Roman and Greek mythology,

01:44:35.960 --> 01:44:41.699
up through ideas of the early ideas of Martians,

01:44:41.699 --> 01:44:47.039
for example, all the way up to beliefs in Loch

01:44:47.039 --> 01:44:49.819
Ness Monster, Bigfoot and folklore and stuff.

01:44:51.120 --> 01:44:54.560
and understanding where they come from. I think

01:44:54.560 --> 01:44:58.079
Monsters, Inc. explained Bigfoot and the Abominable

01:44:58.079 --> 01:45:00.180
Snowman pretty well, right? Oh, really? I haven't

01:45:00.180 --> 01:45:02.899
seen it. Oh, man. I know you're a Pixar guy.

01:45:03.119 --> 01:45:05.899
I am, but yeah. Definitely check out Monsters,

01:45:05.899 --> 01:45:08.720
Inc. But then it's also with our modern world,

01:45:08.800 --> 01:45:11.279
we still need to figure out there's still some

01:45:11.279 --> 01:45:15.460
lines that need to be drawn for us to coexist

01:45:15.460 --> 01:45:24.079
in a shared objective. that you might want to

01:45:24.079 --> 01:45:28.720
have your story. I'm not trying to take away

01:45:28.720 --> 01:45:32.699
your ghost crocodile. I'm sure a lot of people

01:45:32.699 --> 01:45:37.359
would laugh at the ghost crocodile and think

01:45:37.359 --> 01:45:40.260
that it's silly. I think it's beautiful. I think

01:45:40.260 --> 01:45:43.279
it's wonderful and intricate. There are few people

01:45:43.279 --> 01:45:47.720
that appreciate that ghost crocodile. Belief

01:45:47.720 --> 01:45:51.779
system as much as me. However, we still need

01:45:51.779 --> 01:45:55.899
to use, have Bayesian processing. And when new

01:45:55.899 --> 01:45:58.500
information and evidence comes in, we need to

01:45:58.500 --> 01:46:00.739
be able to integrate that, which humans have

01:46:00.739 --> 01:46:03.100
been doing for a long time. It's just that now

01:46:03.100 --> 01:46:06.039
we have modern tools like microscopes to go,

01:46:06.199 --> 01:46:12.350
oh, there's this waterborne virus here. That

01:46:12.350 --> 01:46:14.109
might seem crazy, but you can look through the

01:46:14.109 --> 01:46:17.289
microscope and now you can see this virus. And

01:46:17.289 --> 01:46:19.069
we can take all the time in the world to explain

01:46:19.069 --> 01:46:21.869
it to you if you don't trust us, but you're welcome

01:46:21.869 --> 01:46:26.210
to learn. And also, we're going to put some water

01:46:26.210 --> 01:46:30.909
filters in so the children and the elderly aren't

01:46:30.909 --> 01:46:36.520
getting sick from this water source. This is

01:46:36.520 --> 01:46:39.840
somehow, if you're taking this as an attack or

01:46:39.840 --> 01:46:43.920
an affront on your ghost crocodile story, and

01:46:43.920 --> 01:46:47.140
you want to break the microscope because the

01:46:47.140 --> 01:46:50.939
ghost crocodile is so important to you, then

01:46:50.939 --> 01:46:54.000
I say, fuck your ghost crocodile. I don't care.

01:46:54.340 --> 01:46:58.739
Like, at a certain point, if we're going to cooperate

01:46:58.739 --> 01:47:04.979
as humans in a modern world, there are modern

01:47:04.979 --> 01:47:09.779
realities and opportunities that we can't have

01:47:09.779 --> 01:47:15.779
bad actors and obstructionists stopping us from

01:47:15.779 --> 01:47:23.020
making the world a better a safer place to be

01:47:23.020 --> 01:47:28.180
because their beliefs because you think you're

01:47:28.180 --> 01:47:32.039
like covered in Christ's blood or whatever and

01:47:32.039 --> 01:47:37.340
immune to everything. I get wanting to live your

01:47:37.340 --> 01:47:39.539
life believing that you're never going to get

01:47:39.539 --> 01:47:43.460
sick or whatever, but guess what? When there's

01:47:43.460 --> 01:47:47.979
ways that we've figured out to help mitigate

01:47:47.979 --> 01:47:53.539
actual pandemics, actual virologists, we're going

01:47:53.539 --> 01:47:57.439
to sit down and see. what your understanding

01:47:57.439 --> 01:48:01.619
of virology is. And if you're saying, oh, because

01:48:01.619 --> 01:48:06.260
I'm covered in Christ's blood, I can drive on

01:48:06.260 --> 01:48:09.199
the wrong side of the road because Christ says

01:48:09.199 --> 01:48:10.680
I can drive on the wrong side of the road. Well,

01:48:10.680 --> 01:48:14.439
Jesus has the wheel. Yeah, exactly, because Jesus

01:48:14.439 --> 01:48:19.760
has the wheel. I'm sorry, but we still need to

01:48:19.760 --> 01:48:25.380
function as a society, and your precious little...

01:48:26.860 --> 01:48:29.079
They just took fluoride out of the drinking water

01:48:29.079 --> 01:48:36.000
here. Oh, yeah. It's insane. And it's fine to

01:48:36.000 --> 01:48:40.960
go and look for the Loch Ness Monster or whatever.

01:48:41.720 --> 01:48:44.140
And I think it's great that there's a couple

01:48:44.140 --> 01:48:46.279
of wackadoodles out there looking for the Loch

01:48:46.279 --> 01:48:49.140
Ness Monster. I've taken a Loch Ness Monster

01:48:49.140 --> 01:48:52.760
tour. What a lovely way to spend a day. It's

01:48:52.760 --> 01:48:56.909
hilarious. You don't put the Loch Ness Monster

01:48:56.909 --> 01:49:00.810
guy in charge of oceanic research, and that's

01:49:00.810 --> 01:49:03.850
what's happening now. Because Loch Ness Monster

01:49:03.850 --> 01:49:05.789
guy is going to fire everyone that didn't believe

01:49:05.789 --> 01:49:08.750
their Loch Ness Monster story, put their friends

01:49:08.750 --> 01:49:10.710
in charge of positions they couldn't possibly

01:49:10.710 --> 01:49:13.130
understand the seriousness of because they don't

01:49:13.130 --> 01:49:17.250
have a background understanding of how any of

01:49:17.250 --> 01:49:24.560
this works, and then they're going to... Say,

01:49:24.640 --> 01:49:27.439
hey, everyone stop what you're doing and look

01:49:27.439 --> 01:49:32.619
for the Loch Ness Monster because I say that

01:49:32.619 --> 01:49:35.100
I'm doing this for everyone else, but the only

01:49:35.100 --> 01:49:38.159
thing I actually care about is validating that

01:49:38.159 --> 01:49:40.680
I've been right all along while everyone said

01:49:40.680 --> 01:49:43.260
I was crazy for believing in the Loch Ness Monster.

01:49:44.140 --> 01:49:45.859
That goes back to what we were talking about

01:49:45.859 --> 01:49:49.539
at the very beginning of this. This refusal to

01:49:49.539 --> 01:49:54.720
admit, hey, I made a mistake. I was wrong. Yeah,

01:49:54.760 --> 01:49:57.239
maybe the Loch Ness Monster doesn't exist. Yeah,

01:49:57.239 --> 01:50:02.079
yeah. Maybe the water crocodile, the ghost crocodile

01:50:02.079 --> 01:50:06.800
brings a water virus. These are ways that we

01:50:06.800 --> 01:50:11.000
can put it together. Yeah, so we can have both.

01:50:13.100 --> 01:50:15.840
Everyone's still entitled to their belief systems,

01:50:15.920 --> 01:50:22.310
but not when you're being an obstruction. There's

01:50:22.310 --> 01:50:27.189
people that have tried to attack weather balloons

01:50:27.189 --> 01:50:31.470
and radars and stuff because every time a hurricane

01:50:31.470 --> 01:50:36.310
comes in, psychopaths with their stupid 4chan

01:50:36.310 --> 01:50:41.250
beliefs think that the weather station made the

01:50:41.250 --> 01:50:45.350
hurricane. So they go, I'm sorry, but you're

01:50:45.350 --> 01:50:47.869
a terrorist now. You've just committed an act

01:50:47.869 --> 01:50:50.760
of terrorism. I think you're on to something

01:50:50.760 --> 01:50:53.960
that you might not even realize, though, with

01:50:53.960 --> 01:50:58.720
all of this. Because the element that gets taken

01:50:58.720 --> 01:51:06.060
away by science is the cause. But the idea that

01:51:06.060 --> 01:51:10.420
this happened for a reason that I can somehow

01:51:10.420 --> 01:51:15.609
prevent. We're, not to say... there is all these

01:51:15.609 --> 01:51:17.890
things that we can do with medicine to prevent

01:51:17.890 --> 01:51:20.010
these things. But at the end of the day, like

01:51:20.010 --> 01:51:22.949
we are ultimately powerless against the forces

01:51:22.949 --> 01:51:25.829
of nature and physics and chaos and everything.

01:51:25.909 --> 01:51:30.909
Yeah. That's where I feel like you're, and I'm

01:51:30.909 --> 01:51:33.789
having this realization now, but I feel like

01:51:33.789 --> 01:51:37.250
that's where the disconnect really is. Yeah.

01:51:37.829 --> 01:51:42.590
People like simple. Magic bullet answers for

01:51:42.590 --> 01:51:45.729
things. What you said earlier, Nick, not everybody

01:51:45.729 --> 01:51:48.609
is a scientist. Not everybody is going to have

01:51:48.609 --> 01:51:50.789
that deeper understanding. And not everyone.

01:51:50.989 --> 01:51:53.569
You just have to trust them. Yeah, yeah. That's

01:51:53.569 --> 01:51:57.170
where. I don't want to, if I get into an elevator,

01:51:57.489 --> 01:52:00.710
I don't want to have to inspect the elevator

01:52:00.710 --> 01:52:04.270
myself. No, but I do check the date. No. But

01:52:04.270 --> 01:52:08.930
the reason why we have inspections, it wasn't

01:52:08.930 --> 01:52:12.319
like. a given hotel's idea to be like, you know

01:52:12.319 --> 01:52:16.319
what? I'm going to inspect this elevator out

01:52:16.319 --> 01:52:18.060
of the goodness of my heart and put this little

01:52:18.060 --> 01:52:22.960
thing up. We've decided as a society that we

01:52:22.960 --> 01:52:27.159
don't want to have... elevators falling randomly

01:52:27.159 --> 01:52:33.140
and so we have guidelines in place and we use

01:52:33.140 --> 01:52:36.859
regulation that can always be made better and

01:52:36.859 --> 01:52:40.960
more efficient and improved upon so that i don't

01:52:40.960 --> 01:52:43.939
need to think through every elevator that i need

01:52:43.939 --> 01:52:50.720
to get in to know if it's safe or not and and

01:52:50.720 --> 01:52:57.430
that's it at the same time i It's not anyone's

01:52:57.430 --> 01:53:00.590
right to break the elevator because they don't

01:53:00.590 --> 01:53:02.510
believe they're natural and people should be

01:53:02.510 --> 01:53:05.510
using the stairs. Yeah, and I'm not saying, I'm

01:53:05.510 --> 01:53:07.630
certainly not trying to say it's right. Yeah,

01:53:07.630 --> 01:53:09.930
yeah. But I think there's a level of understanding

01:53:09.930 --> 01:53:11.770
I don't know that I have. Yeah. Where it's like,

01:53:11.810 --> 01:53:15.270
oh, that's why they fight against this so hard.

01:53:15.390 --> 01:53:18.390
Oh, yeah. Because their idea that it happened

01:53:18.390 --> 01:53:22.510
for a reason gets taken away. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:53:23.069 --> 01:53:28.260
That. That's terrifying. I think it's a little

01:53:28.260 --> 01:53:34.640
bit, some of it is a little bit of selfishness

01:53:34.640 --> 01:53:40.439
of wanting to preserve your special sense of

01:53:40.439 --> 01:53:44.859
magic or something where you feel like you have

01:53:44.859 --> 01:53:49.100
special privileged information. This is like

01:53:49.100 --> 01:53:54.989
the conspiracy. Yeah. Sometimes. Oh, for sure.

01:53:55.170 --> 01:53:56.649
Probably not the ones that you've encountered

01:53:56.649 --> 01:53:58.130
because they're the ones that are willing to

01:53:58.130 --> 01:54:02.130
sit down and talk to you. Yeah. I pretty randomly

01:54:02.130 --> 01:54:07.050
find people, and I don't get turned down for

01:54:07.050 --> 01:54:10.430
interviews very often. So I don't think that

01:54:10.430 --> 01:54:14.289
I'm experiencing too many sampling errors. But,

01:54:14.510 --> 01:54:19.449
yeah, can some scientists be pricks? Yes, there's

01:54:19.449 --> 01:54:22.069
pricks everywhere. I think about this documentary

01:54:22.069 --> 01:54:24.689
called The Flock of Dodos. Have you ever seen

01:54:24.689 --> 01:54:27.390
that? No, but I've heard of it. He sits down,

01:54:27.449 --> 01:54:29.670
he interviews a bunch of... He was a biologist

01:54:29.670 --> 01:54:32.590
that became a documentarian. And he goes and

01:54:32.590 --> 01:54:34.970
he interviews a bunch of scientists, biologists,

01:54:35.130 --> 01:54:37.670
and he interviews a bunch of creationists. And

01:54:37.670 --> 01:54:39.229
at the end of it, he's like, who would you rather

01:54:39.229 --> 01:54:41.489
have a cup of coffee with or a beer with? And

01:54:41.489 --> 01:54:46.930
the creationists win by a mile. Yeah, I think...

01:54:47.760 --> 01:54:50.239
That's probably some selection bias. I've had

01:54:50.239 --> 01:54:54.180
plenty of beers with scientists, and I've had

01:54:54.180 --> 01:54:56.479
plenty of beers with creationists, and I would

01:54:56.479 --> 01:54:59.119
much rather have a beer with scientists. This

01:54:59.119 --> 01:55:02.279
was a long time ago, too. I think people have

01:55:02.279 --> 01:55:04.439
gotten a lot more divided since this was made.

01:55:04.560 --> 01:55:08.779
It was a lot more... The point he was making

01:55:08.779 --> 01:55:11.600
was that scientists aren't always great at selling.

01:55:12.260 --> 01:55:14.659
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's science communication.

01:55:15.770 --> 01:55:17.770
A lot of the time, these are people that aren't

01:55:17.770 --> 01:55:23.369
super social. They aren't super. Yeah. They aren't.

01:55:24.430 --> 01:55:28.170
But I'm thinking about people that become specialists

01:55:28.170 --> 01:55:32.529
in their field. You think about the amount of

01:55:32.529 --> 01:55:35.670
concentration. Those are typically people that

01:55:35.670 --> 01:55:41.890
just aren't the most social. Yeah. The number

01:55:41.890 --> 01:55:47.800
of. threats that i got in my dms during covid

01:55:47.800 --> 01:55:50.420
just because i talk with like actual virologists

01:55:50.420 --> 01:55:53.520
and epidemiologists and stuff and it was always

01:55:53.520 --> 01:55:56.060
because i do psychedelic shows and i've been

01:55:56.060 --> 01:55:58.659
on rogan and stuff like that so i have people

01:55:58.659 --> 01:56:02.880
from that are into conspirituality that happen

01:56:02.880 --> 01:56:05.300
to follow me because they're interested in my

01:56:05.300 --> 01:56:07.460
psychedelic stories or whatever and so because

01:56:07.460 --> 01:56:12.539
of that i've gotten to i've gotten to see a side

01:56:13.130 --> 01:56:17.329
Yeah, I know you have love and light on your

01:56:17.329 --> 01:56:21.710
social media profile and all that, but I know

01:56:21.710 --> 01:56:24.310
who you actually are, and you're a psychopath

01:56:24.310 --> 01:56:28.329
narcissist making the world a worse place. So

01:56:28.329 --> 01:56:33.590
I don't like... Yeah, I think that I'm going

01:56:33.590 --> 01:56:37.270
to go to bat for scientists on this one. I would

01:56:37.270 --> 01:56:41.140
say that... I would say... comedians are really

01:56:41.140 --> 01:56:44.420
fun people with psychedelic communities are really

01:56:44.420 --> 01:56:51.319
fun people but yeah but if i and there's certainly

01:56:51.319 --> 01:56:54.319
like weird neurodivergent people in mathematics

01:56:54.319 --> 01:56:56.380
and i talked with like social and scientists

01:56:56.380 --> 01:56:58.899
and psychologists and stuff more so there could

01:56:58.899 --> 01:57:03.079
be sampling things but yeah that that's the whole

01:57:03.079 --> 01:57:06.899
thing these days is oh it's cool science Like,

01:57:06.899 --> 01:57:10.399
primatology isn't cool. Looking for Bigfoot is

01:57:10.399 --> 01:57:12.560
cool. Like, I beg to differ. I think you're a

01:57:12.560 --> 01:57:15.279
fucking dork if you're out looking for Bigfoot.

01:57:15.300 --> 01:57:19.380
I think primatology is absolutely fascinating.

01:57:19.800 --> 01:57:23.960
And if you can't understand what is fascinating

01:57:23.960 --> 01:57:27.180
about primate, like, you are a primate. Like,

01:57:27.180 --> 01:57:32.560
if you... It's one thing. I don't expect everyone

01:57:32.560 --> 01:57:35.180
to become a primatologist and take an interest.

01:57:36.109 --> 01:57:41.170
in primatology but don't go hunting bigfoot and

01:57:41.170 --> 01:57:45.909
tell me like like pseudoscience is like where

01:57:45.909 --> 01:57:48.829
it's all at it's just that people it's just that

01:57:48.829 --> 01:57:50.770
people want to think that they found like special

01:57:50.770 --> 01:57:56.630
treasures yeah and and i don't I don't think

01:57:56.630 --> 01:58:00.189
that I think we all I love when I form a new

01:58:00.189 --> 01:58:02.890
connection and have an epiphany and think that

01:58:02.890 --> 01:58:05.310
I've came up with an idea on my own and I want

01:58:05.310 --> 01:58:08.970
to share it. And that is a special feeling. And

01:58:08.970 --> 01:58:13.270
it's not a special enough feeling that I'm able

01:58:13.270 --> 01:58:18.810
that I'm willing to like obstruct like public

01:58:18.810 --> 01:58:23.609
health because for my ego. I think I guess what

01:58:23.609 --> 01:58:26.640
I was. Getting at was just more that if we have

01:58:26.640 --> 01:58:30.939
to trust people, and I think you hit the nail

01:58:30.939 --> 01:58:33.720
on the head when you started talking about when

01:58:33.720 --> 01:58:36.520
things started to get more and more entrenched

01:58:36.520 --> 01:58:40.600
and divided. From a bunch of people trying to

01:58:40.600 --> 01:58:43.539
say that they're centrists. Yeah. It's an easy

01:58:43.539 --> 01:58:47.579
thing for a comedian to be like, hey, both sides

01:58:47.579 --> 01:58:50.279
are crazy, right? Because then a whole audience

01:58:50.279 --> 01:58:53.729
will be like. He's not talking about us. We're

01:58:53.729 --> 01:58:57.010
the sane ones. Look at us, room of sane people.

01:58:57.470 --> 01:59:00.649
Now we can hear jokes about the others. So those

01:59:00.649 --> 01:59:04.930
crazy, dumb people out there. People, it's so

01:59:04.930 --> 01:59:06.689
funny, comedians are like, people are stupid.

01:59:06.810 --> 01:59:10.050
I'll be like, yeah, people are stupid. I go up,

01:59:10.050 --> 01:59:11.930
I'm like, hey, I hear some smart shit. People

01:59:11.930 --> 01:59:16.590
are like, fuck this. Like, they will leave. People's

01:59:16.590 --> 01:59:20.590
precious little fucking egos. Yeah, I don't know.

01:59:21.289 --> 01:59:23.789
It's a never -ending, it's an overly complicated

01:59:23.789 --> 01:59:27.689
issue. We really aren't built for this modern

01:59:27.689 --> 01:59:31.130
world. People aren't handling some of the advancement.

01:59:31.350 --> 01:59:33.829
And maybe, much like you were saying with online

01:59:33.829 --> 01:59:36.609
bullying, I know when YouTube first came out,

01:59:36.710 --> 01:59:40.149
it was just like when some people first got the

01:59:40.149 --> 01:59:45.289
opportunity just to harass strangers. You could

01:59:45.289 --> 01:59:49.189
just go and yell homophobic slurs and stuff at

01:59:49.189 --> 01:59:52.579
people all day long. You can call a thousand

01:59:52.579 --> 01:59:55.680
people gay in a day if you are typing fast enough

01:59:55.680 --> 02:00:00.020
and finding enough videos. There's been a little

02:00:00.020 --> 02:00:05.420
less of that. There's naturally gotten... They

02:00:05.420 --> 02:00:08.500
send their... They go to Twitter to further...

02:00:08.500 --> 02:00:13.039
Or they have all these parasocial groups where

02:00:13.039 --> 02:00:19.020
this person's followers will go harass this other

02:00:19.020 --> 02:00:22.670
community's group of followers. It's better and

02:00:22.670 --> 02:00:27.189
worse. But the other thing I really wanted to

02:00:27.189 --> 02:00:32.090
get into is your Meow Wolf specials. Yeah. Because

02:00:32.090 --> 02:00:35.329
I have actually never been to a Meow Wolf installation,

02:00:35.729 --> 02:00:41.130
but I feel like I've been to their virtual installation

02:00:41.130 --> 02:00:44.789
in Walkabout Mini Golf, which they designed from

02:00:44.789 --> 02:00:49.130
the ground up. Where is that? I'm going to show

02:00:49.130 --> 02:00:53.909
it to you after this. It's in here. Oh, yeah.

02:00:54.670 --> 02:00:57.010
Oh, sweet. Yeah, I'll drop you in there afterward.

02:00:57.149 --> 02:01:01.050
But they based most of it on the Denver exhibit

02:01:01.050 --> 02:01:04.630
where you filmed your specials. I mean, beside

02:01:04.630 --> 02:01:07.770
the kind of obvious, oh, psychedelic art, beautiful,

02:01:07.890 --> 02:01:10.869
this kind of unique thing. What's obvious about

02:01:10.869 --> 02:01:15.829
that? It's like when I heard you're doing a special

02:01:15.829 --> 02:01:17.890
there, I'm like, oh, that makes total sense.

02:01:17.949 --> 02:01:23.140
Yeah, yeah. For the listener, I had 20 different

02:01:23.140 --> 02:01:26.460
artists contribute to the show, so that brings

02:01:26.460 --> 02:01:31.619
my psychedelic experiences to life. And in real

02:01:31.619 --> 02:01:35.699
time, with video jockey Michael Strauss, who's

02:01:35.699 --> 02:01:39.399
been video jockey for a whole bunch of bands

02:01:39.399 --> 02:01:44.060
and things. So in the same way that BJs can add

02:01:44.060 --> 02:01:48.890
atmosphere to music shows. We've created kind

02:01:48.890 --> 02:01:51.789
of a new form of comedy, essentially bringing

02:01:51.789 --> 02:01:55.229
psychedelics to life in a way so that people

02:01:55.229 --> 02:02:01.489
can have a little bit of a vicarious trip of

02:02:01.489 --> 02:02:06.829
sorts. And it's a two -part thing. The first

02:02:06.829 --> 02:02:10.569
one's about mushrooms and LSD and a little bit

02:02:10.569 --> 02:02:14.890
like a psychedelic 101. And then... the second

02:02:14.890 --> 02:02:18.050
one's like ayahuasca dmt and ketamine and like

02:02:18.050 --> 02:02:22.189
a little bit of a kind of a 102 and so it's meant

02:02:22.189 --> 02:02:26.930
to be just like a fun kind of introductory vicarious

02:02:26.930 --> 02:02:30.630
trip that's accessible that people can show their

02:02:30.630 --> 02:02:32.550
friends that are nervous about psychedelics or

02:02:32.550 --> 02:02:34.689
whatever so people can get a sense of what the

02:02:34.689 --> 02:02:38.399
psychedelic experience is like without having

02:02:38.399 --> 02:02:41.619
done psychedelics and of course nothing can compare

02:02:41.619 --> 02:02:45.659
to the actual experiences themselves it's a it's

02:02:45.659 --> 02:02:48.359
something that i think a lot of people will watch

02:02:48.359 --> 02:02:52.859
to inspire their next experiences and stuff yeah

02:02:52.859 --> 02:02:55.880
i want to back up for a second and tell everybody

02:02:55.880 --> 02:02:59.579
what meow wolf is oh yeah yeah because i feel

02:02:59.579 --> 02:03:01.500
like a psychedelic disney world we're like making

02:03:01.500 --> 02:03:03.260
all these assumptions because we both I know

02:03:03.260 --> 02:03:06.420
what it is, but Meow Wolf, they're an art collective.

02:03:06.680 --> 02:03:10.079
Yeah. They have installations in Denver, Houston,

02:03:10.340 --> 02:03:12.260
Dallas, somewhere. I feel like there's one in

02:03:12.260 --> 02:03:14.640
Texas. First one was in Santa Fe. Then they have,

02:03:14.760 --> 02:03:17.180
my favorite one's in Vegas, actually. It's like

02:03:17.180 --> 02:03:21.560
a really good take on capitalism in a fun way.

02:03:22.380 --> 02:03:28.380
And then there's, yeah, Houston, Grapevine, Texas,

02:03:28.539 --> 02:03:33.020
which I think is a smaller one. They are building

02:03:33.020 --> 02:03:37.800
one in New York and L .A. at the moment. And

02:03:37.800 --> 02:03:41.659
it's like a 3D interactive art. Yeah, it's like

02:03:41.659 --> 02:03:46.859
a four -story psychedelic kind of Disney World

02:03:46.859 --> 02:03:51.760
of sorts. of like you you go around and you can

02:03:51.760 --> 02:03:55.300
like also solve these puzzles and stuff like

02:03:55.300 --> 02:03:57.920
that as you go through and like various scavenger

02:03:57.920 --> 02:04:00.020
hunts or you can just walk around and appreciate

02:04:00.020 --> 02:04:04.220
all of the you know three -dimensional like trippy

02:04:04.220 --> 02:04:07.800
art and it's you know what's cool is like you

02:04:07.800 --> 02:04:10.500
go there and you like kids walking around and

02:04:10.500 --> 02:04:13.890
like kids fucking get it immediately It's like

02:04:13.890 --> 02:04:16.029
this alien world and then they totally get it.

02:04:16.090 --> 02:04:18.850
But adults can really appreciate it too. It's

02:04:18.850 --> 02:04:21.529
not like a little kiddie type. I've always seen

02:04:21.529 --> 02:04:22.829
the psychedelics just turn you into a kid again.

02:04:23.029 --> 02:04:29.050
Yeah, yeah. I think that we'll show that in the

02:04:29.050 --> 02:04:34.890
future with MRIs. Once we can create recordings

02:04:34.890 --> 02:04:41.590
of some of the visual inner worlds, I would guess

02:04:41.590 --> 02:04:47.100
that... They would match things that match babies

02:04:47.100 --> 02:04:51.380
a lot. I think some of the fractals and geometry

02:04:51.380 --> 02:04:55.140
is just like the original natural state of sensory

02:04:55.140 --> 02:04:56.640
information. DMC is what our brain is flooded

02:04:56.640 --> 02:05:02.399
with at birth. Yeah. And death. Yeah. What did

02:05:02.399 --> 02:05:06.640
you think was unique or special about Meow Wolf?

02:05:06.939 --> 02:05:10.159
Has anybody ever... done anything like this with

02:05:10.159 --> 02:05:13.020
them before it's the first special ever recorded

02:05:13.020 --> 02:05:16.560
at a meow wolf i had to put together some connections

02:05:16.560 --> 02:05:20.539
and stuff and it was really cool and it was just

02:05:20.539 --> 02:05:23.039
like the perfect fit they got a trippy vibe and

02:05:23.039 --> 02:05:26.739
it was for a psychedelic show it was hard to

02:05:26.739 --> 02:05:31.800
do any anything else do it anywhere else it was

02:05:31.800 --> 02:05:34.119
just the perfect yeah i feel like once the idea

02:05:34.119 --> 02:05:36.260
was there it was like that was where it had to

02:05:36.260 --> 02:05:39.760
be yeah absolutely like i said the moment i heard

02:05:39.760 --> 02:05:42.539
i was like that makes so much fucking sense sounds

02:05:42.539 --> 02:05:44.739
like you have a lot more in the pipeline too

02:05:44.739 --> 02:05:46.579
do you want to tell everybody what else you have

02:05:46.579 --> 02:05:50.020
going on in 2026 because sounds like you have

02:05:50.020 --> 02:05:52.479
a lot coming yeah so i have these stand -up science

02:05:52.479 --> 02:05:55.699
shows i might change the name a little bit but

02:05:55.699 --> 02:05:58.699
i have this myth understanding show that there's

02:05:58.699 --> 02:06:02.260
like a we just did an imax version but we have

02:06:02.260 --> 02:06:05.420
a planetarium and dome version ready to go as

02:06:05.420 --> 02:06:07.720
well since the sphere happened now like there's

02:06:07.720 --> 02:06:10.680
other smaller domes popping up in different places

02:06:10.680 --> 02:06:14.579
you have a planetarium climax here too oh nice

02:06:14.579 --> 02:06:17.539
yeah i'll have to come back there's planetariums

02:06:17.539 --> 02:06:21.159
everywhere and they're and no one goes to them

02:06:21.159 --> 02:06:25.060
anymore so they're like actually really as someone

02:06:25.060 --> 02:06:28.039
who was like really inspired by planetariums

02:06:28.039 --> 02:06:31.119
when i first smoked weed at high school and everything

02:06:31.119 --> 02:06:35.539
but then to eventually get really into astronomy

02:06:35.539 --> 02:06:38.239
and learning about the universe i think they're

02:06:38.239 --> 02:06:41.560
i think they're like so cool and underappreciated

02:06:41.560 --> 02:06:44.579
and another thing that's associated with kids

02:06:44.579 --> 02:06:49.460
it's like there's actually amazing planetariums

02:06:49.460 --> 02:06:52.439
in here that i use all the time really very cool

02:06:52.439 --> 02:06:56.560
on my back and They have presentations where

02:06:56.560 --> 02:06:59.060
they talk about all the constellations. They

02:06:59.060 --> 02:07:01.460
have a traditional one, but they also just have,

02:07:01.560 --> 02:07:08.979
you can look and stargaze. Nice. Yeah, I'm doing

02:07:08.979 --> 02:07:17.039
a little run -through of a show about AI. There's

02:07:17.039 --> 02:07:21.479
this Cooperative Futures Institute using cooperation

02:07:21.479 --> 02:07:26.199
research to think about AI alignment problems

02:07:26.199 --> 02:07:33.020
and the new ways to think about building, new

02:07:33.020 --> 02:07:35.819
ways of thinking about AI and how to build AI

02:07:35.819 --> 02:07:38.079
based on cooperative models. I think decentralization

02:07:38.079 --> 02:07:41.939
is the only answer at this point. Yeah, yeah.

02:07:42.180 --> 02:07:47.279
And there's a lot of hierarchical oligarchy bros

02:07:47.279 --> 02:07:50.979
in charge right now, and so there needs to be

02:07:50.979 --> 02:07:57.579
a vibe shift, I think. The gambling of our entire

02:07:57.579 --> 02:08:01.520
society. Yeah. The casinification of our entire

02:08:01.520 --> 02:08:05.359
existence is real, man. It's crazy. Yeah, it

02:08:05.359 --> 02:08:12.000
really is. And then I have a thing about using

02:08:12.000 --> 02:08:19.880
examples of ants and bees and other social animals

02:08:19.880 --> 02:08:26.960
to think about how structures and like civilizations

02:08:26.960 --> 02:08:35.340
emerge from complexity and from rather than thinking

02:08:35.340 --> 02:08:38.000
about things in a top -down way that's how we're

02:08:38.000 --> 02:08:41.539
used to thinking about things and thinking about

02:08:41.539 --> 02:08:46.199
how from the bottom up how some of these like

02:08:46.199 --> 02:08:48.500
belief systems like the manta we or whatever

02:08:48.500 --> 02:08:52.300
coordinate How this happens and how do people

02:08:52.300 --> 02:08:56.319
naturally find themselves coordinating and problem

02:08:56.319 --> 02:08:59.880
solving. Like not eating shellfish or pork or

02:08:59.880 --> 02:09:03.199
things like that. Yeah. Very similar to what

02:09:03.199 --> 02:09:08.340
you're. Yeah, yeah. It's like the Hindus and

02:09:08.340 --> 02:09:12.199
the sacred cows and stuff. I don't think it's

02:09:12.199 --> 02:09:16.819
any mistake that the people with the. They have

02:09:16.819 --> 02:09:19.539
different breeds of cows there that aren't as

02:09:19.539 --> 02:09:24.420
good for butchering. And especially something

02:09:24.420 --> 02:09:28.619
that was incredibly useful, basically their tractors

02:09:28.619 --> 02:09:32.460
and stuff and tractor factories to have things

02:09:32.460 --> 02:09:37.739
in place to a lot of these belief structures

02:09:37.739 --> 02:09:43.520
are ways of... helping the prefrontal cortex

02:09:43.520 --> 02:09:48.520
to to do the hard thing in the moment for long

02:09:48.520 --> 02:09:53.079
-term planning and behaviors to a lot of it's

02:09:53.079 --> 02:09:56.140
about hedonism and so a lot of it's like how

02:09:56.140 --> 02:10:00.119
do we manage our how do we have engage with better

02:10:00.119 --> 02:10:04.899
self -control and and your guess is as good as

02:10:04.899 --> 02:10:08.399
mine but a lot of these structures attempt to

02:10:08.399 --> 02:10:13.560
solve those Those issues. So yeah, those are,

02:10:13.579 --> 02:10:18.880
I think, the three main shows. Oh, I almost debuted

02:10:18.880 --> 02:10:22.560
one in a couple days in Pensacola. Actually,

02:10:22.640 --> 02:10:25.539
speaking of placebo, I almost debuted a stand

02:10:25.539 --> 02:10:29.180
-up science show about the placebo effect. I

02:10:29.180 --> 02:10:31.739
decided it wasn't quite ready yet, so I'm launching

02:10:31.739 --> 02:10:36.020
it next year. So that's four or five different

02:10:36.020 --> 02:10:41.579
shows. that i have going next year so it'll be

02:10:41.579 --> 02:10:45.279
fun so once the specials come out like i'm very

02:10:45.279 --> 02:10:49.060
much yeah my here we are podcast but i'm also

02:10:49.060 --> 02:10:51.340
making sure that people know that i do other

02:10:51.340 --> 02:10:53.500
things other than just talk about psychedelics

02:10:53.500 --> 02:10:55.979
so i don't get pigeonholed too much but also

02:10:55.979 --> 02:10:59.239
so people have reasonable expectations when they

02:10:59.239 --> 02:11:02.840
come to see me because yeah i i like i'll probably

02:11:02.840 --> 02:11:06.319
tour with a psychedelic show and a science show

02:11:06.319 --> 02:11:09.979
in each city that i go so the psychedelic enthusiasts

02:11:09.979 --> 02:11:12.960
can be satiated because otherwise if they show

02:11:12.960 --> 02:11:15.159
up to my science shows and then they just want

02:11:15.159 --> 02:11:17.859
to ask about drugs and we're talking about hyenas

02:11:17.859 --> 02:11:22.539
right now how do hyenas trip bro come on there's

02:11:22.539 --> 02:11:24.819
other subjects i mean that's one thing i love

02:11:24.819 --> 02:11:28.720
psychedelics i don't love drug culture yeah all

02:11:28.720 --> 02:11:34.529
that much i like a good festival and stuff Sure,

02:11:34.529 --> 02:11:38.449
but when it becomes everything. I totally get

02:11:38.449 --> 02:11:42.149
it. Shane, it's been fucking awesome having you

02:11:42.149 --> 02:11:44.189
here. There's one last thing I want to ask you

02:11:44.189 --> 02:11:48.670
about. Van life for tall people. Yeah, I have

02:11:48.670 --> 02:11:54.289
a little bed extension. Any other tips? Not quite

02:11:54.289 --> 02:11:57.770
as tall, but as a fellow tall person that is

02:11:57.770 --> 02:12:00.369
interested in living on the road. Yeah, yeah,

02:12:00.409 --> 02:12:02.949
straight. You need something tall. I think sprinters

02:12:02.949 --> 02:12:07.090
are the tallest ones that there are. It's just

02:12:07.090 --> 02:12:11.109
tall enough for me. It's the only time. Being

02:12:11.109 --> 02:12:15.289
tall is an advantage in life in a lot of ways.

02:12:15.850 --> 02:12:19.909
Van life, I wish I could shrink two inches every

02:12:19.909 --> 02:12:24.060
time that I walk around. my van and that reminds

02:12:24.060 --> 02:12:26.520
me of something else Hank Green says a lot is

02:12:26.520 --> 02:12:29.100
like humans we would just be we if we could just

02:12:29.100 --> 02:12:32.260
shrink yeah humans could just be like three feet

02:12:32.260 --> 02:12:34.899
tall instead of six feet tall yeah yeah that's

02:12:34.899 --> 02:12:38.579
funny yeah one need as many resources and such

02:12:38.579 --> 02:12:40.699
yeah man Shane this has been fucking awesome

02:12:40.699 --> 02:12:44.600
yeah thank you so much appreciate it hope you

02:12:44.600 --> 02:12:46.779
enjoyed my talk with Shane Moss make sure to

02:12:46.779 --> 02:12:49.479
check out his new special coming out February

02:12:49.479 --> 02:12:52.359
18th on his website. There's a link in the description.

02:12:52.659 --> 02:12:56.939
It was filmed at Meow Wolf in Denver. And after

02:12:56.939 --> 02:12:59.899
the interview, we had a chance to let him check

02:12:59.899 --> 02:13:03.260
out the Meow Wolf golf course that they did for

02:13:03.260 --> 02:13:06.520
Walkabout Mini Golf in virtual reality. It's

02:13:06.520 --> 02:13:08.279
actually based on the Denver exhibit that he

02:13:08.279 --> 02:13:10.920
filmed his specials in. I think it was a really,

02:13:10.939 --> 02:13:13.800
really great afternoon. Make sure to check out

02:13:13.800 --> 02:13:16.039
that Meow Wolf course, if that's your thing.

02:13:16.460 --> 02:13:19.619
It's in VR on Walkabout Mini Golf, one of my

02:13:19.619 --> 02:13:23.159
favorite games to play in there. They designed

02:13:23.159 --> 02:13:26.699
the whole course from top to bottom. Just a reminder

02:13:26.699 --> 02:13:30.399
that this podcast is produced in everything from

02:13:30.399 --> 02:13:33.359
start to finish by me. I do everything from the

02:13:33.359 --> 02:13:35.239
booking to the recording, editing, producing,

02:13:35.600 --> 02:13:40.689
distribution, marketing, everything. And in order

02:13:40.689 --> 02:13:43.109
to keep this going and keep it sustainable, I've

02:13:43.109 --> 02:13:45.609
launched a Patreon. There's not really any extra

02:13:45.609 --> 02:13:47.649
content. There'll be some bonus stuff here and

02:13:47.649 --> 02:13:49.510
there, but it's really just a way for you to

02:13:49.510 --> 02:13:51.250
directly support the show if you like what I'm

02:13:51.250 --> 02:13:54.029
doing. So check it out. There's a link in the

02:13:54.029 --> 02:13:56.510
description. It's patreon .com slash Fenton.

02:13:57.710 --> 02:14:00.569
Thanks a lot for tuning in. We'll see you next

02:14:00.569 --> 02:14:02.829
week with Justin Long, a really old friend of

02:14:02.829 --> 02:14:04.529
mine who played in a band called No Address.

02:14:05.399 --> 02:14:07.720
plays with the Petty Nicks experience, and does

02:14:07.720 --> 02:14:10.239
a bunch of other stuff, does some artist development,

02:14:10.479 --> 02:14:14.279
and he was a producer. And we got into a big

02:14:14.279 --> 02:14:16.220
conversation about the whole Tallahassee scene

02:14:16.220 --> 02:14:20.159
and the toxicity of major labels and how they

02:14:20.159 --> 02:14:23.439
treated bands in the early 2000s. Just great

02:14:23.439 --> 02:14:26.000
talk. You get to know both of us a lot better.

02:14:26.380 --> 02:14:28.979
I hope you enjoy it. Hit that subscribe button.