I'm an epiphany chaser. I love science books.
A lot of people would find them boring, but yeah,
it can be like a little boring and it can be
a little frustrating or you're not getting it
or whatever. And then suddenly something clicks
and you experience that epiphany where you like
just see something about life just completely
differently. Welcome to Overeducated and Underemployed.
This week we've got Shane Moss, comedian, podcaster,
fucking hilarious dude. Really enjoyed hanging
out with him, talking to him. He's got two new
specials coming out. that he filmed at Meow Wolf
in Denver, Colorado. Meow Wolf is an amazing
art collective. Check their stuff out. His first
of the two is out February 18th, just in a couple
of weeks here. So check that out on his website.
There's a link in the description of this episode.
If it's anything like the show I saw the night
before this interview, man, I am... Y 'all are
in for a treat. He was so funny. And I've seen
some clips from the special as well. It's great.
February 18th on ShaneMoss .com. There's a link
in the description. Check it out. This is a long
episode of clocking over two hours. We talked
about everything from his upbringing to... the
Creation Museum, and about a movie that was made
like 15 years ago called Flock of Dodos. And
I think a combination of what Shane was talking
about, selection bias, combined with like time,
and I think a conscious effort for scientists
to be better communicators over the last 15 years
or so has made... that movie pretty much null
and void at this point. We got into all kinds
of stuff. I hope you really enjoy it. If you
like the new theme song, make sure to check out
the new single by Sloan Brothers. It's out everywhere.
The new album, Love and Other Diagnosis, is available
to order on vinyl on Bandcamp. There's a link
in the description. Thanks for tuning in. We
got a lot of really cool stuff coming up this
season continually, so hit that subscribe button.
I am honored to have Shane Moss on Overeducated
and Underemployed. Hey, thanks for having me.
Thanks for being here. I'm pumped, man. Yeah,
this is awesome because I think we have more
in common than I initially thought, which is
it's like somebody like you, you do so many different
things. You have your fingers in so many different
areas. I do. And I like to try and diversify
what I'm doing as well. I'm going to start with
a question that I ask everybody on here. And
then I'm going to do a follow -up that I do with
comedians. But what's the first song that you
remember loving as a kid? Oh, man. That's a good
question. MC Hammer, Can't Touch This. Is that
what it was? Yeah. Yeah, that was, as a kid,
I remember loving that. And then I didn't get
into music. love after so that was like i was
four or five or something like that and then
my next love was weird l oh yeah and so my parents
didn't listen to music like they didn't have
music on and stuff and for whatever reason like
i didn't get music and i remember weird l's parody
of smells like teen spirit yeah yeah when i heard
that i was like wait, what is this real song?
And then I listened to Nirvana for the first
time and I was like, oh my God, that was the
first time that I found a band that I absolutely
loved. And yeah, that changed everything, I think.
And then, so I was like pretty old by the time
I like got into music at all. And then I was
into like Soundgarden and Stone Temple Pilots
and stuff at that time. And then I was into Nine
Inch Nails. Because I was born in 1980. These
are like teenage years now. And then when I got
into psychedelics, Pink Floyd became my favorite
band. So it was like Nirvana, Pink Floyd, and
then just once in a while I find something that
I really... It's so few and far between. And
then when I find a band, I'm obsessed with them.
So it was like Weezer was my first concert. White
Stripes was my second big concert. White Stripes.
I wasn't a big concert goer. And then Aesop Rock.
Not Aesop Rocky. Not Aesop Rocky. Aesop Rock.
is like the person who i'm absolutely just obsessed
with his i just found out he has a new album
out and i just started listening to it and asap's
one of those people you gotta listen like to
an album like 20 times and suddenly these like
pieces start you start putting stuff together
and his stuff's just so deep and dense and interesting
and so intelligent and so it's just constantly
I'm an epiphany chaser. I'll read like a lot
of, I love science books. A lot of people would
find them boring, but yeah, it can be like a
little boring and it can be a little frustrating
or you're not getting it or whatever. And then
suddenly something clicks and you experience
that epiphany where you like just see something
about life just completely differently. Exactly,
exactly. And I have those when I listen to Aesop
Rock. I have a lot of epiphanies. And I think
we have so much in common. It's funny. Once I
was doing a club and someone was like, hey, you
know who you remind me of? I do a lot of indie
venues and stuff. Aesop Rock. Because he had
been through there recently. Just the way you
guys think about things. You're like really similar.
I was like, oh, that is the best compliment you
could have fucking given me. That's incredible.
And they didn't even know it. They didn't even
know it. Didn't even know it. Didn't know it.
It was like my hero. And, and he, and, and, and
just the weirdest. I just wrote like this a few
months ago. I wrote like this 20 minute, like
at least it could easily be 30, 40 minute, like
ridiculous beast. of a bit about pinball and
it's so stupid it's so stupid that it's so long
and it's just i kept going and going and i like
just that cracks me like a subject that who like
one two jokes about pinball is the appropriate
amount of pinball jokes so anyway i wrote all
this and then i was listening i just discovered
he had a new album and he has this fucking song
about pinball on it i'm like god damn it how
is this happening we're just on the same wavelength
I guess we're going to be playing some pinball
out in the arcade after this. I'm no good. I
suck at it, but I'll play. Yeah, yeah. I love
pinball too. I don't love pinball. I was actually
writing a joke about how frustrating of a game
it is. And then I just did all this deep dive
and I found out pinball was illegal for 40 years.
And then I, oh my God. And then I saw. like one
of the worst, those bad movies like The Room
or whatever where people watch them because they're
bad. Do you know that the song Pinball Wizard
was a musical named Tommy? Oh, I've seen Tommy.
Yeah. It's like the worst fucking movie. Yeah,
with Tina Turner as the acid queen. Yeah, like
Jack Nicholson's in it. Oh, I forgot about the
Tina Turner part. Yeah, man. That movie's fucking
crazy. That's... That movie's so insane. It is.
Like, musically, I think it's a lot of fun. Yeah.
Like Elton John. Elton John as the pinball, like,
champion that gets beaten. Oh, my God. Yeah,
yeah. That is so stupid. That shit's crazy. So
I just went on this stupid deep dive. Sometimes
I love just, because a lot of my stuff is, like,
I do a lot of, especially now that my psychedelic
specials. are coming out I'm diving back into
my science communication a lot more and so I'm
collaborating with a lot of different science
groups with some different communication projects
and and so because of that like I'm doing for
a comedian I'm doing like some pretty like serious
work sometimes and so to like just sit around
writing the dumbest jokes i've ever written about
pinball for a while is just like scratches that
i need to be silly too sometimes no i i definitely
write some silly jokes and i try not to get like
super silly it goes there but when i'm doing
these interviews i try to be as serious and engaging
as possible to be silly too yeah for sure but
One thing that you said that I really relate
to, when I was a kid, I would get into Weird
Al's parody and then go find the original. That
was how I would get into music a lot. Weird Al's
amazing. I just had his guitarist for 43 years
on this week. Oh, that's incredible. The week
that we're talking now, not the week that this
comes out. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, I've seen Weird
Al. Ten times. Yeah. I saw him live, like, I
don't know, 15 years ago or something. And I
was like, oh, Weird Al. He's been off my radar
in my adult life. And I was like, oh, I'll check
that out. Saw the show. I was like, oh, my God.
This is incredible. It's a multimedia extravaganza.
It's so good. UHF is. Maybe my favorite comedy
of all time is pretty close. The theater I'm
performing at tonight, in its old location, my
daughter and I rented out the theater and showed
UHF for, it was like probably her 10th birthday
or 11th birthday. That's amazing. Showed it to
a bunch of fifth graders. They all thought it
was hilarious, but didn't understand, like they
didn't know. A couple of them had maybe seen
one or two of the things he's fucking. Yeah,
yeah. But, good God, it still killed a group
of kids that had never, didn't really know Weird
Al, didn't know any of the movies he was making
fun of really at all. You get to drink from the
fire hose! Speaking of silliness, oh, just pure
silly. What a gem of a human being. He really,
yeah, really, truly. I think it's also just a
testament to how many people he's inspired to
because you're not the first person. I guess
the cat's going to be on the podcast this week
because I forgot to put them on the porch. That's
all right. That's all right with us. What's the
cat's name again? This is Pumpkin. Pumpkin. And
I have jokes about her. She's very insecure.
Oh, she's cute. So, yeah, Weird Al. Yeah, we
rented out the theater, showed it. We made Twinkie
Wiener sandwiches. which that's some good dad
shit they're disgusting oh yeah the most awful
thing i've ever eaten it's part of the joke yeah
and he went v i think that's why he went vegan
because he but so the follow -up question i have
uh and i usually save this only for comedians
but what's the first joke that you remember loving
and maybe even retelling to your family or friends
as a kid One that immediately comes to mind is
maybe because of the UHF reference, Emo Phillips
joke. It was something along the lines of, I
love to go to the park, and I can't do an Emo
Phillips impression, and watch all the kids run
and scream and jump around. And they don't know
I'm shooting blanks, which is, I don't think
you can do that joke anymore. But I remember
that was one of the first ones when I was like
10, 11 years old or something like that. I've
actually seen Emo open for Weird Al twice. Oh,
yeah, nice. And me and my daughter are going
to meet him one night afterwards. Yeah, yeah,
I've met Emo. He's great. Human being, yeah.
Yeah, I've met him several times. Hilarious.
So do you remember telling that joke to other
people as a kid? Yeah, I do. Yeah, I remember
that. That's interesting. Yeah, how about you?
For me, it was who's on first? Evan Costello.
That was... My grandfather showed it to me, and
one of the only non -racist jokes he ever...
yeah man it just it tickled me in all the right
ways i yeah a friend of mine to do it read redo
it in front of the school for a talent show and
it was terrible but yeah yeah yeah i loved abin
castella and not their movies but that one bit
really And I love baseball, too, so I think that
was part of it. You know what joke, as a kid,
that we had that kids these days, like, I've
asked my friends' kids if they have this joke,
like, in their school, is the diarrhea jokes.
Oh, like, run down the ladder? And you feel something
splatter, diarrhea, diarrhea. So now, any time
I meet my friends... Well, you could be making
fun of a medical issue. Yeah, yeah. So, any time
my friends have kids, because it's like... You
always want to bond with your friends' kids if
you can, but it's always like, I don't know how
to talk to kids. You seem like you'd be the good,
weird uncle. Yeah. Sometimes I'm like, ah. It's
funny trying to impress kids and being like,
I'll get socially insecure. I want to be cool.
Come on. And so that's how I attempt to be cool.
I try to give the youngins the diarrhea song
to go and tell all their friends at school. Because
kids don't have it. So they can be the ones to
introduce it. You're going to be a hit at school.
You're creating class clowns across the nation.
You got to tell them every day just show up with
a new banger. And the other kids don't know that
these are just from the archives. Man, the internet.
I'm shocked with the internet that the diarrhea
joke has not made it. It hasn't trickled down.
Sorry. I couldn't help it. I love it. So you
already mentioned that your parents didn't really
listen to music growing up. Were they also not
really exposing you to movies or TV? What kind
of upbringing did you have? I had, so my mom
is just the cutest, sweetest, like, most wholesome
person. A little bit to a fault. I was the first
kid and a little bit, like, overprotective and
stuff. As a kid, it drove me crazy. As an adult,
it was nothing but pure love, and I had a very
secure, I was cared for. and loved but i remember
it was my mom's one of the bigger worry warts
that you'll ever meet and like i i remember last
time i was through florida i was like i went
out kayaking with some manatees and i was telling
my mom like i had a manatee or whatever and her
first question was oh do they bite and it's just
that's our first default reaction to everything
Is it dangerous or whatever? I'm like, that's
illegal, man. True. Whatever. All Floridians
have pet a manatee at one point or another. So
she tried to really have strict rules with...
Video games and movies and TV and what was allowed
and what was appropriate. And I was always just
very rebellious. Were you allowed to play pinball?
Yes, I was allowed to play pinball. Once they
made it legal, it lost the edge. Back when it
was illegal and you had to be an illegal pinball
machine. i don't even know how you were getting
one there's like the pinball mafia or something
but oh man you have an illegal pinball machine
you're fucking that guy's cool the engineering
that goes into those machines i i actually just
went to where was i in seattle they have this
um quote unquote pinball museum and there's not
so much information there is some about each
machine but They have like a pinball machine
from almost every year. Oh, wow. Like some of
the earliest ones going back, at least once they
put the paddles in. And so I played every one.
So you can see the way the designs changed. If
you just start from the beginning and four hours
or whatever, you can play like the whole history
of. pinball engineering that sounds so fun for
someone that actually doesn't generally care
for pinball it was super fun there's this Atari
collection that they put out it's similar but
it's at home where they take you through the
history of Atari you get to play each game but
they also have like historical material and interviews
with the developers it's really Because a lot
of the times there's old collections of games.
They're just collections of old games that you're
like, this sucks now. But when you get all that
extra context, I think it really helps you understand
why it was fun then and what was fun about it.
Oh, I just remember my many friends. I had the
people that babysat me and my best friends growing
up. had an atari and then my uncle had an atari
and it was just like anytime i got a chance to
play atari it was incredible i can't imagine
it's got to be so hard to as a parent these days
to get kids to play outside and stuff like that
because it's just like the games are incredible
it is it absolutely is it's it doesn't help that
it's getting Hotter and hotter, but yeah. So
good natured, but overprotective parent. Do you
think that anxiety took some of that on yourself
or do you? Oh, I was just, I just was like incredibly
like rebellious. Okay. And so I got myself into
really in hindsight, an unnecessary amount of
trouble. And I, I hated school and yeah. My name
was always on the board. I was always in detention.
I was exceptionally good at math without even
trying. But I paid no attention in school, so
all the other classes I was so bad at. I was
grades behind in reading and stuff. So there
was regularly... meetings because there wasn't
as much like neural divergent talk back then
but it was like some people be like oh do we
need to hold them back a grade do we need to
put them in like the special ed with all the
like troublemaker kids or and then the math teachers
would have to come in and be like no he actually
needs to be in advanced classes yeah yeah so
it was like school was torture for me and I'm
thankful that I eventually got into I'm an autodidact
now I love taking classes and things now I'm
constantly taking online courses and you know
I have a science podcast here we are and I interview
scientists all the time and I get to learn so
much and so I look back but I'm sure a lot of
people wish they would have paid a little more
attention in school or whatever but it was what
what it was at the time but i'm like i i have
a broken like pinky knuckle right now from like
mountain biking six six weeks ago just it's my
first time mountain bike the first day was amazing
and then i think you could do like an advanced
trail actually you're really good like i i'm
just i always like to like extreme sports and
stuff that was just like like i hated organized
sports and i Loved things where you could get
hurt. I was very reckless always, and I still
am. So I have some scar tissue and kind of a
bum foot that acts up a few days every month
and stuff. There can be some consequences to
rebellion. And then sometimes some rebellions,
some default contrarianism stuff is just so immature.
Yeah, I've heard you talk about that before with
Duncan. Just like when y 'all were talking about
rituals and how you abandoned being ritualistic.
Oh, yeah. Oh, I never had any rituals. The intentional
nonconformity. Oh, and my mom is just the cleanest,
most organized. teetering on a little bit OCD
when I was younger anyway I think she's loosened
up I think it was like an outcome of the stress
of being a mother and also a lot of from a small
town and where everyone cares very much about
what everyone else thinks of them and living
to be kind of people pleasing and everything
and so boy And so I rebelled against that too.
And now I'm just like such a messy fucking boy
still. It's just so immature. I don't know how
to cook. I can't clean up after myself for shit.
And it's just, I just went the opposite direction.
It's like, you know what? Actually, those were
a lot of great qualities that I wish I would
have taken to more. But I was just, I just had
it in my mom. It had like a devilish little troublemaker.
And the more she tried to contain it, the more
rebellious I was. And it was like a constant
source of friction, my poor mother. But that's
what it was like. The tighter you close your
grip, the more systems will slip through your
fingers. Yeah, yeah. It's funny because I know
that I had one other friend whose parents were
as strict as mine or stricter. person that i
knew that was crazier than me in terms of like
risk taking and whatnot and then i had these
friends that their parents seemed like they let
them do whatever the hell they wanted to do and
they were the most well -behaved kids and i think
i think that i don't know how much there is in
the way of like free like parenting classes and
stuff but i wish there was some more like 101
It's easy to be well behaved when you don't have
any rules. Yeah. Really. It's easy to stay out
of trouble if you don't have any restrictions.
Yeah, there's nothing to rebel against. Yeah,
yeah. So you hated school. Did you fit in? Did
you feel like you had friends at all, really?
I actually, in hindsight, it was like I actually
did have a nice little group of friends. To me,
I felt, like, unpopular. I felt I was, like,
the skinniest kid in school, and kids always
find a thing to pick on. And I have, like, my
dad, and my dad's side of the family is, like,
towards the quieter side. And so I was... I definitely
would have been voted shyest kid in school. And
so I was very insecure. And so I was tall and
skinny. And so it was also like the short kids
would want to fight me because of how skinny
I was. They thought they'd have a chance. Then
they get to fight a tall guy. And I got bullied.
Also, I remember bullying. I'm picking on kids.
And it's, that's the shit that will, like, whatever
kids bullied me, I could give a shit about. I
was like, whatever, they were just kids. But
when I bullied people, I can't fucking live with
that shit. Like, I've made, I've ran into some
of the kids that I bullied in the past and apologized
and made, like, plenty of times in my adult life.
I think a lot of the fucking problems with this
modern world is just like these bullies with
these bully mentality that like just refuse to
like face like being critical of themselves and
seeing. oh actually i was a piece of shit here
and there and made these bad actions and like
kind of self -reflection and so you have to like
validate it by continuing to justify bullying
and doubling down and i think you're absolutely
right about that and i have a fucking bully dictator
king yeah yeah no i think you're absolutely right
i think the reactionary nature of The way people
interact with each other online. Yeah. First
of all, I don't think it's like that in the real
world most of the time. When I'm out there with
real people, it's a very different thing than
what you see online. But it's becoming more and
more. Online is becoming more and more part of
the real world too. Yeah, yeah. And the way that
we treat each other is becoming more and more
like that. And you're right. It's like the moment.
I remember just a couple of weeks ago when there
was a joke going around about how Mamdani was
going to put Arabic numbers and make all New
York City schools teach Arabic numbers. And some
lady who was like a Democrat, like true blue
Democrat lady on a friend of mine's wall was
like, made some offhand comment about it. Like
she thought it was like, but then she like tried
to say, no, we shouldn't spread it because it's.
She was like, that's not true, or something like
that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's not really, he's
not really doing that. And then somebody was
like, Arabic numerals are just like the numbers
that we use all the time. yeah but if we spread
this around then they're gonna use it as a and
i'm like why can't you just admit that you were
wrong yeah yeah why can't you just be like oh
my bad yeah my mistake reactance doubling down
lack of self -awareness one one of the things
that i one one concept that i i think quite a
bit about is is the is the evolution of self
-deception i spend a lot of time So kind of my
wheelhouse is in a lot of my best interviews
when I'm talking with people. Thinking of the
ways in which past pressures on our ancestors
and through the course of evolutionary history
have shaped our brains, have shaped various preferences.
features that we are attracted to may have been
like indicators of health in the past and that
sort of thing and and various social behaviors
that we have a lot of these drives that we had
were because they were evolutionarily beneficial
at at some point and our modern world's much
much different than it used to be but so you
have so basically for For human genes to spread,
there's like kind of seven different sub -selves
of the mind that we really aren't like privy
to, but there's tests that you can design to
tease out these ideas. You know, this is like
an imperfect categorization, but one of the ways
that I like thinking about it is, there's a good
book, The Rational Animal, that is, So you need
like a survivor sub self. You need the kind of
night watchman of sorts. Keep an eye out for
surviving. There's an infectious disease sub
self, which is you go in like a public restroom
or something. That's because ancestors that had
an aversion to say poop or whatever did better
than ones that were attracted to it. And then
you have, because we're social animals, so then
every species also needs to find a mate. And
then some species do some child rearing, which
humans do. And then, yeah, a lot of fish just
shoot out their eggs and never see their offspring.
And then there's, let's see. So attracting a
mate, mate retention. So because humans have
some pair bonding and paternal care has been
selected for over time, which is also pretty
unusual in species, there's features that it
takes one thing to pick up a lady. It takes another
thing to hold on to one. Those are like different
features. And then there's, because we're social
animals, there's an affiliate of sub -self. And
then there's a status -recognizing sub -self,
which is knowing, kind of sensing where you are
in a social totem pole in different situations.
So it's always my status while on stage is different
than my status when I'm in a convenience store,
which is different than my status when I'm like...
on a mountain bike course or something so this
is always different and the same person can be
low on the totem pole working in the mail room
at their work but then they're the best on the
company softball team yeah so it's like a water
bottle in walmart versus a water bottle in the
airport yeah yeah sure that bottle yeah the same
bottle is worth more in different so you know
that person when they're was going to have more
confidence and maybe call the shots on the softball
but then that might be lowering confidence working
in the mail room or whatever and so these are
things that are always being adjusted and there's
all these interesting tests developed to tease
these things apart but so of the of these kind
of subconscious drives we can become aware of
them but But there's a lot of work about self
-deception. The ways in which our brains err
aren't just random. We often err to the side
of, for survival sub -self, you err to the side
of caution. So you might not be accurately perceiving
a threat, but the over -cautiousness... left
more descendants than people that took too many
risks for example and then this creates a spectrum
and then this is why there's the varying personalities
and everything and there's been so many ecological
changes in different environments and humans
are extremely adaptable so a lot of these things
are highly influenced by the environment and
culture more so in humans than in a lot of species
that are a lot more fixed yeah yeah yeah That
have a very specific niche, like a sloth or something
like that, that can't really... Very specific
biological place. Yeah, you put them somewhere
else, they're probably not going to do very well.
And self -deception is really interesting because
we're these social animals and because status
is something that can be valued and there's sometimes
some gender differences. and various ways in
which status might mean more in different situations.
But because of this and being affiliative, the
ability to sell yourself to others is something
that is selected for. So having confidence and
everything. So there are... subconscious features
and again there's individual differences where
plenty of people have insecurities in different
domains but quite testably if you ask people
how good of a driver are you how smart are you
how attractive are you the average person embellishes
by about 15 20 percent and the idea is that and
then some people are way off the charts and then
and the idea is it's like just enough where it
can help you get ahead a little bit in a social
situation if you have so it's like you don't
realize you're doing this but you have a little
more confidence in this situation and that can
keep you like moving forward through life a little
bit like maybe seeing reality a little clearer
would make it a little harder to get out of bed
and to take a chance at something if you were
seeing it more accurately and so because you
have this like slight delusion it can actually
work out numbers wise over time as like evolution
throws like a lot of spaghetti against the wall
that that that things that are just a little
overly competent and then the other thing is
in terms of social manipulation so say we're
negotiating a deal if i'm really genuine and
i'm like trying to sell you something it's going
to be more believable to you and you're going
to be more inclined to buy it or pay more for
whatever i'm trying to sell you and so then you're
trying to detect if i'm genuine or not and so
then there's these social features where some
people might like over time you evolve ways to
deceive and then you evolve ways to detect deception
so much so that eventually some ways to deceive
are hidden from our conscious awareness because
it's easier to sell something when you believe
it yourself. So it's like these kind of lies
that you tell yourself a little bit. And it's
not necessarily even lies, it's just embellishments.
But you're genuinely perceiving this product
that you made as better than it is. So there's
a lot I want to teach. Yeah, yeah. Were you able
to follow everything? For sure. And we're speaking
the same language in a lot of this, too, just
because of my background in history of science
and history of biology. Yeah. But what strikes
me about a lot of what you were just saying,
too, is like all of that understanding, all that
is crucial to being a comedian. Yeah. You have
to. Have some self -deception that people even
want to listen to you talk by yourself on stage.
Especially early on, I have to delude myself
into thinking people actually want to hear what
I want to say. Same with putting out something
like this. You have to believe this thing that
may or may not be true. You have to believe that
what you're doing is worth people's time. But
then you also have to be able to have that self
-reflection to be like, maybe the real world
isn't the place for me. Yeah. Nine to five. At
what point did you realize that and realize that
you needed to pursue something? different than
because i feel like this is what was going on
you already knew it in high school you already
knew it in school oh when i when i was nine years
old a friend of mine had told me i should be
a stand -up comedian and i i didn't tell anyone
that then but it was like at the age when everyone
was figuring out what are you gonna be when you
grow up we just graduated fourth grades time
to make some big the choices and and nothing
seemed to peel peeling to me And I really, I
was raised really, by my standard, pretty strictly
religious, I would say. Catholic. My dad was
Catholic. My mom was Lutheran, too. And so it
was, I think that they weren't as, they were
more flexible in terms of denomination and just
Christianity. I had some questions about that,
like, very early on, in the same way that, like,
everyone was, like, Packer fans and would get
so excited. And I remember watching football
and being like, I don't get what the fuss is
about. Hey, as a kid, I was like, let's go outside
and play sports. I want to play. Like, watching,
like, other people do the same thing for hours
and hours on end. I found out when I was like
five that if I just rooted for the other team
that the Packers weren't playing, or that the
Packers were playing, it would drive my uncles
like insane. And it just cracked me up so much
that I could just push buttons that easily. And
it was like fascinating to me. And so because
of that, I remember around the same time that...
I started questioning Santa Claus, four years
old or whatever even. It wasn't long after that
I started being like, what is this stuff? And
how does this prayer? So there's a thing, just
listen. Wait a second. Is this just like a story
people are telling themselves? I always thought
of Santa Claus as like God Jr. Oh, yeah. It's
like you're just getting them ready for somebody
watching them all the time, and you're giving
them the carrot before you give them the stick.
Yeah, and there's a lot of reasons why humans
have been able to... There's a lovely book, which
it's not the only take, and it's not a perfect
take, but the book Sapiens, A Brief History of
Humankind, that makes a case for the... evolution
of cognitive features that allowed humans to
cooperate in large numbers over subjective ideas
things that only exist in the human mind so like
he put that at like 250 000 years ago is that
right that we started to develop that i think
he's speculating on that maybe there was this
change during the cognitive revolution which
which was around like 80 000 years ago or so
but yeah so humans are like so the so his case
is around that so humans have been around for
about 300 000 years and his take is that maybe
what happened when there was like this explosion
of new tools and stuff like that it was something
that some sort of aspect of our cognition that
had been selected for that allowed for this that
took off well and the earliest tools are found
in neanderthal caves and things like that too
so like even the and we were here breeding with
them a lot at that point yeah and so this was
like a lot of the case that he makes in his book
was like how did we out compete neanderthals
and this is neanderthals weren't able to organize
in the same numbers that we were and and the
speculation is maybe it's because of these subjective
beliefs and then we also have all these other
evolved cognitive biases which are that we have
theory of mind and understanding that other things
have a mind and we try to test for that in other
animals as well and there's not a lot of animals
showing a lot of great like theory of mind type
stuff and even understanding that they're looking
at themselves in the mirror or whatever and and
so This is really beneficial if you know something
has a mind and if you know something has an intent,
an agency. This is really beneficial if an organism
knows like a predator or prey has a mind and
an agency of its own. And if you're able to put
yourself in its shoes, you can anticipate moves
and then a social. Species like us, the same
thing. If you can put yourself in another person's
shoes and then imagine them imagining themselves
in your shoes. These are cognitive features that
we're selected for so much so that we overshoot
it. So we tend to anthropomorphize even inanimate
objects and things. Think about Wilson in Cast
Away. Exactly, exactly. And we also, the same
thing for faces, recognizing faces. If you look
in a bush to know if there's like a face of an
animal rather than just like a random pattern
is so beneficial that it's not that big of a
cost to perceive shapes in clouds and be wrong.
That's not a big deal. But if you don't notice
that there's a face and a mind and intention
in a bush, it might eat you. And so it's to that
better safe than sorry, erring toward the side
of caution. It's so useful to imagine a mind
and agency that we projected onto other things.
But much of human history, it seems like hunter
-gatherer tribes today, have a lot of animism
where there's a tree god and a cat god and like
every there's a god for everything but the greeks
and the romans had a lot more of that yeah that
was yeah like polytheism yeah which is a little
bit different than like animism which is like
a nice way of you have these archetypes of the
perfect tree or it's not of them as being like
In relationship to what their relationship with
nature was, right? Exactly. The more hunter -gatherer
people had this closer, more reliant relationship
on their environment. And once you start the
agrarian... Building cities and having agriculture
and accruing. And then now suddenly status becomes
a much bigger deal. Once you can suddenly start
accruing a lot more resources and owning more
things and suddenly you can store enough food
for thousands of people and someone else that
doesn't have that many assets might not be as
valuable as a mate. or as a friend or whatever.
So then once we started perceiving the status
a little bit more, you see it go more and more
into these monocultures where we tend to perceive
a single god. But at the same time, a lot of
the same features are still where you're over
-perceiving a monoculture. But now it's, instead
of appreciating that there's a god for everything,
now it's just, I bet there's, There's a guy that's...
It's just like me, only more like me. Just like...
I remember the name of the Greek philosopher,
but he said the god of a fish is a fish. I can't
remember his name at the moment, but I got to
pee. Can we take... Yeah. Come in. Cool. I have
two restrooms if you need one, too. Maybe I'll
have some more tea. Cool, man. I bet that water's
still hot, but if it's not... Oh, I'm sorry.
It's right there, yeah. Yeah, that's the mess
of a book room. So with monotheism, it really
becomes, to me, a thing that starts being almost
inseparable from natural philosophy at a certain
point. Because everything is being, but the way
that you examine it and your ability to ask questions
and answer them is very different under those
two frameworks. One thing that I've... Was there
ever a point that you found yourself believing
in what your parents were teaching you as a kid,
or were you always questioning it? Yeah, no.
So I was always questioning it, but I realized,
like, I basically, when I still, I remember,
like, still, like, sincerely praying as a child
and stuff. It was like... But really, is this
a thing? And it's funny because as an adult,
I actually have an appreciation for a lot of
the intricacies of how religions and spirituality
evolved. And a lot of the ways in which it has
been beneficial to a lot of people through time,
but there's definitely pros and cons, but, but
yeah, I remember at that same time when I was
like nine, I realized, Oh, this is not like a
thing. This is. So I was like, so I was like,
there is not. No. And it was like, it was, I
didn't even know. that there was such a thing
as being agnostic or atheist. As far as I knew,
everyone, every single person in the world, except
me, believed in these stories. Have you been
watching Blurbis? I have been, actually. It's
so fantastic. It reminds me of that scenario
where you feel so alone. Yeah, yeah. And everybody
is in on this thing that you don't understand.
And it was really, it messed me up. It was so
alienating. And so then I didn't want to do anything
conventional. And so this was like in the summer
between fourth and fifth grade, I remember I
stopped believing there was a God. I was like,
nope, there's no God. And then I... I have more
nuanced ideas now. And then I realized I wanted
to be a stand -up comedian. And then, yeah, that
was like, because I didn't tell anyone, because
my very responsible, pragmatic parents, I felt
like. I told them they'd try to stop you. That's
the way I felt. That's unfair to them. That's
how it felt in my, yeah. And rightfully so. If
anyone finds out you're a comic now, people are
like, hey, tell me a joke or whatever. I knew
that there would be an expectation. I was worried
people would make fun of me for wanting to be
a stand -up or whatever. And so it was like my
biggest secret that I had. I can relate to that,
to be honest. I feel like I carried a similar
feeling around all through parenthood. Where
it was like, I couldn't tell anybody. That's
really what I felt was right for me. Because
I had to be a responsible parent. But it was
like in my heart. I was like, I know one day.
And I used to tell myself, oh, I don't really.
It's really rare for young comedians to have
anything interesting to say. So I'll just do
it when I'm older. Is what I would tell myself.
But it was like this secret that I kept to myself.
And I was always. i've loved comedy since i was
very young but yeah really i feel you on that
one man what was that like all through school
because it seems to me like you were probably
still like the class clown no actually i wasn't
a class clown i was maybe in like math classes
where i was like because then i it was like where
the water when you were a water bottle in the
airport yeah because there was like just nothing
If I was sleeping in class or whatever and a
teacher would call on me to wake me up or to
catch me not paying attention, I could just easily,
I knew the answer, I could explain it. And I
could oftentimes explain it sometimes even better
than the teacher. Because it's a lot of times...
You were on the softball field, not in the mail
room. Yeah, yeah. And it's also, there's some
research that shows the best... The best teachers
of, say, like fifth grade math are like seventh
graders because they're like a couple years ahead,
but they still remember what it was like to learn
that. So it's not like there wasn't anything
like special about me. It was just I was very
comfortable in that space. And so because I was
comfortable, maybe I would be more of a goofball.
And so I do remember people thinking like I was
funny and like bullies knew I was funny too.
And like that, it was like my self -defense a
little bit. Like they had to be careful because
they might, they might want to bully me, but
they're going to end up with a new nickname or
something like that if they do. And so it's not,
but I wasn't like a, I wouldn't consider myself
a class clown. I was like really, no, no. Back
of the room, very quiet. And yeah, I really kept
to myself. But my core group of friends might
be the funny one. Did you find yourself struggling
with anxiety or depression? Oh, yeah. Depression.
It sounds like you already felt very alienated
just by who you thought you were versus everybody
that you were around. Yeah, yeah. By the way,
none of this is... I'm 45. I don't care at this
point. I'm over it. But it's to the extent...
I also... I'm teasing apart all these subtle
little details that shape us in life histories
and stuff. But I just don't want to be like,
oh, poor me. I'm not getting the Freud doll.
I do have him hanging out over there. Nice. But
I... Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I remember. And
then another thing happened, which was like the
only adult that I respected, this like doctor,
my mom worked at a clinic and there's this doctor,
Dean was named family friend. And he, he was,
he just had a like great way of relating to me.
And I felt like buddies with him or whatever.
He killed himself when I was like at that same
age. And it like, It also got in my head. I was
like, I get it. I remember taking it really hard,
and then I remember being like, I get it. What
is the point of any of this? And then I had these
dreams of becoming a comedian. Yeah, I did. It
was very existential, crisis -y type stuff. And
I'm clinically diagnosed as bipolar now, but
I think... I think it might have been some of
that genetic, but I think it may have just been
some of, like, my early development where it
was, like, gravitating to these extremes so much
where I was just, like, I felt, like, suicidal,
like, every day. And the only thing that I could
do that would keep me going was these dreams
of being a famous stand -up comedian and everything.
And what was funny is actually, like, When I
caught breaks as a comedian, I was like, huh.
That was everything I tortured myself over for
the last 15 years or whatever. It's weird, man.
When you get those personal victories and you've
built them up so much. Yeah, yeah. I don't want
to say they lose meaning, but it's really hard
to stay present in them. Yeah. It's also more.
I remember in Boston, I was pretty popular when
I moved to Boston. I was getting to be... Did
you move when you were in high school? No, I
wanted to, and I kept on, oh, I'm going to save
up some money, then I'm going to move. But I
had gotten into drinking at that time and spent
all my money partying, because then I was starting
to become popular for the first time in my life.
That was, oh, my gosh, I get to be popular. And
I remember that being, like, really meaningful
to me to get to be, like, the funny guy at parties
or whatever. And alcohol loosened up my shyness
and everything. Liquid courage. Liquid courage.
And I was, like, so scared of girls. Oh, my God,
I was so insecure. I'm so scared of them. Oh,
yeah. And when you get regularly picked on for
being, for how you look or whatever. And for
me, it was like being freakishly skinny. I was
like legitimately the skinniest. That ages very
well. Again, I'm not complaining. It shaped me.
By the way, I just want to say, you don't have
a poor pitiful me tone about anything. You're
good. But I do think it's interesting to talk
about this stuff. Well, the point I was going
to like when I remember getting to Boston and
I'm grateful for starting in Boston and all the
friends that I made there. But and few people
get to have such fortunate experiences as myself.
But I just remember like when I actually got
to be cool. Oh, I'm cool. I remember being like,
oh, so fucking stupid. like why why the fuck
did i care like it was this is what i was torturing
myself over it's great to have friends and be
social but like a need to like be the fucking
cool guy or whatever it's just like embarrassing
yeah no i can't relate to that feel like because
i was always so my first job was at a regular
like a concert venue where I was a fucking stagehand
or the dude that put the flyers on people's cars.
I was 14, 15 years old. They would send me into
the competitor's parking lots because I wouldn't
go to jail. But my point is I was always surrounded
by those people, and I liked being in the corner
and being around it all, being in that world,
but I never wanted to be the guy with all the
spotlight. And so for me, I think, just over
the last couple of years where I've really started
to pursue what I want to do with my life, I was
fortunate enough to know that it was more about
connecting with the right people and making friends.
I have a great group of people in my life that
I love and have spent years developing really
strong friendships with. But not a lot of them
are... I still feel... different than a lot of
them you know what i mean and then i found as
i've gotten more into comedy and doing the podcast
and back into the world where i was as a teenager
it's oh i'm like with my people again and not
to talk shit about any of my friends but they
a lot of them work nine to fives they can function
in society in a way that i've never really been
able to yeah had to force myself to for a long
time And what I'm hearing with you is, like,
your drive to break out of being alone was maybe
– admittedly, you say, like, maybe misguided,
but it was, like, along the way you figured it
out. That's not what's important. Like, what
you were – what I'm thinking about is, like,
it was glamorous to you in your brain for reasons
that you didn't know. It was like, I don't want
to be alone. And you thought at the time, oh,
being admired, being popular, those are the ways.
Those are the only ways you knew to not be feeling
so fucking alone. But once you got into the Boston
scene, I feel like that's when you realize the
fame and the fortune, whatever, that's not what
matters. But now I've surrounded myself with
people that are like me. Yeah, absolutely. it's
whenever i can relate and that's actually why
i like interviewing scientists is when so then
when i started that was the first time because
so i really related to comedians minds a lot
and then when i stumbled on the kind of idea
and hobby of going because i was always reading
pop science books and stuff and once i started
uh interviewing people i was so scared and out
of my comfort zone at the time but like after
i got past that it's like when i talk with scientists
it's it is it's just it's like really it's like
oxygen it's it's oh this is this is someone that
understands how I think about it, which is like
figuring out the mechanisms that drive existence.
It's like one of those other personalities. They're
one of those other layers of your personality.
It really is. And I don't think it's a capacity
or capability thing. I think it's more of a willingness
thing with people. I think that anyone could
learn any aspect of science that they wanted
to put time into. Yeah, I think that's true for
a lot of things. wanting to yeah yeah yeah being
driven and having that curiosity it's it can
be really hard and i see uh and i know i'll try
to be like all oftentimes i'll be in a social
situation and i'll try to but i still don't talk
that much i'll try to drop like some little bit
of science knowledge about a cognitive bias or
something like that that is extremely applicable
to like the specific situation that we are in
i know this is interesting and it's entertaining
if you bring any willingness but like i'll just
see people's eyes glaze over or whatever confused
like why are we talking about this no it hasn't
happened but it's so it just it definitely makes
me feel like an alien a lot of times in this
world where it's oh man a lot of people just
can't relate to and there is like a serious scientific
literacy issue and i don't care if someone doesn't
know this stuff but like you like these like
negative reactions of just if you're hearing
something that might be a little different from
your own beliefs or something like that you see
these like self defenses and stuff go up and
i like people like try to call like science boring
and stuff too and i get it's it can be really
tedious and it's certainly baseball that's the
thing it's okay so what do the what are humans
excited about The most excited you'll see them
is when they get together on Sunday and watch
a bunch of dudes try to move a ball around from
one end of a field to another field, throwing
it, running with it. Sometimes they kick it,
too, and they do this in roughly the same way.
The same way you've seen them do this thousands
upon thousands of times before. It's all from
a book. And you're doing this. We're all doing
it from a book. But you're watching this over
three hours. You're watching this thing. And
then afterwards, you excitedly watch another
three hours of this ball moving about. And then
after that. Another three hours. And then there's
commentary for an hour afterwards. Like a debrief.
Let's talk about what we just saw there. The
amazing thing about ESPN is they've been able
to create a 24 -hour news cycle around... just
sports like they oh yeah sports is the whole
world and they're just covering that world yeah
it blows my mind and people can get statistical
thinking when it's about their sports team or
gambling or whatever so people have the capabilities
it's some people sound like geniuses if they
if they were articulating any other subject as
well as they're like talking about their local
team or whatever and this is they're imagining
oh my gosh they have mirror neurons feeling like
it's them catching the ball in the end zone and
oh my goodness and this is so exciting this thing
then there's like a talk about it like an hour
beforehand who's gonna win this and all that
and then at the end of this 11 hours that you
get together and do this then Whichever teams
lost that week, their state will have higher
domestic abuse rates that week. That's how much
people care about this fucking ball -moving game.
I get it. Super Bowl Sunday is one of the highest
domestic abuse rates of the year. It's crazy.
And I could tell. Your average person would be
like, imagine interrupting that and being like,
hey, does anyone want to watch a 10 -minute YouTube
video with incredible effects that shows the
origins of the universe and how all of this came
into being and how we know it? And they'd be
like, that's boring. They would not have the
time for that 10 -minute. You can literally understand.
learn about all of the existence that got us
here. Nah, that would be a boring 10 minutes.
And you don't have to pick one or the other.
You can have your football and we can do it on
another day. How about another day? Can I sit
you down for 10 minutes to see Morgan Freeman
fucking narrating the best fucking CGI of the
world? understanding how a sun forms and it's
it's incredible it's there there's just like
a real deviation and i get it i get that it's
such a social thing and it's a way that people
connect around can connect at all ages and root
for your home team and be enthusiastic i think
that it's lovely that people find ways to gather
and get excited about things You could make this
same argument about, I could have made that same
argument about a music festival or something.
Oh, it's just a guy playing a thing. I get it.
It's just a guy fucking talking into a microphone
for an hour. You could make anything boring if
you wanted to. But the crazy thing to me, so
I get. why people like football. And I appreciate
it more as an adult, too, than I used to. I'm
happy now for my family when the Packers win
because I know they're happy and everything.
But the reason why I can appreciate that is because
it's so... fucking predictable it's just so predictable
and there's nothing inherently good about football
it's just the like if you go to australia they're
doing the same thing with rugby or in other places
it's soccer so there's nothing like inherently
yes this is we've reached the pinnacle of this
objectively good sport like people that are really
into football perhaps find a game of cricket
to be as boring as i just described i like baseball
one of the things about baseball everybody says
baseball is boring and until suddenly it isn't
yeah yeah but i think science is like that too
yeah science it really is pretty fucking boring
if you're in the trenches doing down in the trenches
for sure Until there's a big discovery, and then
suddenly it's not boring anymore. But I think
some of it is self -defense stuff. I think some
of it is insecurities and stuff. I have this
idea of why people groan at puns. I'm not a pun.
guy myself, but I appreciate a good pun here
and there. I'm not as good of an improviser.
I'm not as quick of a thinker as some people.
I'm a deeper, more contemplative person, so there's
trade -offs there. I think that with puns, it
sometimes takes a second. To get that you missed
it. And so it's like a way that it's like a self
-conscious defense where you groan to conspicuously
advertise to the social group like, hey, I did
get that. I just didn't think that it was funny.
You roll your eyes. But it was actually a solid
joke. And I think that there's something like
that with science as well. I think it's true
with comedy in general. Getting a crowd to laugh
the first time of the night is like getting them
to have a mini ego death. Yeah, in a way, yeah.
You have to get them to be like, okay, it's okay
to laugh at this. Yeah, yeah. You don't have
to pretend it's not funny. You don't have to
sit there. I think Pete actually, Pete Holmes
is the guy that said this one time where it's
like you go. To perform. And everybody there
is like the funniest person in their friend group.
And they're all there. Oh, what do you got for
me? Yeah. You avoided that with your non -traditional
psychedelic show. You keep talking about how
the psychedelic crowd is so great. And I think
that's one of the reasons, right? Yeah. They've
already had their ego deaths, man. Yeah. Yeah.
It's also just. I'm trying to develop new styles.
So a lot of the stuff, especially the show Stand
Up Science, that was my main thing before COVID.
And I've reformatted it and I'm bringing that
back. next year and but with different themes
and so it used to be just like random scientist
two different scientists in every city that i
went to and it was like half comedy and half
science and two different things and this is
more like me doing a 45 minute science inspired
philosophical comedy set but it's definitely
there's a lot more it's heavier it's more information
dense than Could teeter toward the more funny
talk thing. And then I have a panel conversation
with scientists afterwards. I select based on
fields that are relevant to the subject matter.
And then it's just... So it's more... sciency
it's more informative the stand -up part is more
informative than a regular stand -up comedy and
then the panel is funnier than a regular science
panel or something so it's so it's meant to be
like 50 science 50 comedy and so it's always
like some people show up expecting it to be a
little more funny or whatever and then it can
go both ways too sometimes like the psychedelic
show like that you saw last night that's me doing
more funny stories then i i took some questions
so i got into some more information type stuff
but sometimes if i just didn't like because some
people know that i sometimes integrate a bunch
of science into my shows so sometimes if i'm
just doing comedy people are like oh i like i
like brought some friends because of the information
and stuff you know so i'm always trying to find
that balance so hopefully after my specials come
out and more people kind of know who i am and
have a better idea of what to expect this these
psychedelic specials are meant to be a proof
of concept for a new kind of style that then
i want to apply to different science topics and
so hopefully people know and understand because
i think that i think that stand -up comedy can
be for myself a little limiting in terms of what
i care about which is my favorite sound to hear
is when getting laughs and stuff that's great
and like Love getting a big laugh, but it doesn't,
I don't think it inspires me as much as it does
a lot of people. My favorite sound is when I
hear someone go, huh. I know they just had, they
just realized something about life that like
connected a bunch of things in this way. Huh.
And that's like really special to me. If I can
get more of those, and I don't know how to make
it, but then because it's a comedy show, people
are used to hearing laughter. So as a comedian,
it's always the hard parts, being on stage, getting,
it's been like three minutes of me not even intending
to have a laugh, not even trying for a laugh.
That was one thing I noticed about something
you have heard you talk about in the past was,
like, you used to be really focused on, like,
laughs per minute and stuff like that. And then
I noticed last night, like, you didn't even go
for, like, an opening joke like most comics would
do to just break the ice or whatever. It was
very clear to me that you were like, I'm just
going to have a conversation with you guys. We're
going to ease into this, and we're going to have
a good time. It was fucking great. Yeah, yeah.
Thanks. I loved it. Yeah. But it also, it was
very non -traditional in the sense that, just
like what you were saying, it was, I noticed
that, can you talk a little bit about, and then
I want to go back again for a minute, but can
you talk a little bit about that shift that you
had from trying to just get all these laughs
per minute to relaxing into this new style that
you do? so when i started wanting to so it actually
didn't even occur to me to put science but make
put any of the science concepts into my act ever
i was just reading science books as a hobby it
like it's so weird the thought never even crossed
my mind like oh maybe i could put some of these
concepts in my comedy until i like caught the
break i basically i had like a five -year plan
when i started comedy and i accomplished those
goals that i had i exceeded them and then i was
what do i want to do with this and also i wanted
to think about performing internationally more
where there's like a lot more like themed shows
and i was like yeah maybe i'll try doing some
science jokes and first it was just like oh there's
all these funny animal mating behavior things
so that's like an easy transition from dick jokes
to like sciencey dick jokes and anatomy is always
hilarious yeah and which maybe i should i did
a special mating season on netflix but maybe
i should do some i should do another mating one
sometimes because it actually is it's just it's
just like all the gender war culture war shit
we've got So annoying that I'm like, I don't
want to. We need to have one day a month where
we have the great gender war and we all yell
about dicks and vaginas and who can have them
and what we do with them. And then the rest of
the month we just get to move on with our lives
and do the other things that need to be done
in life. But mostly just move on. Yeah. I don't
know. But there is, anyhow, there's so much great,
but there is great stuff in there with just the
way insects mate and stuff. It's just wildly
fascinating. But so that seemed like a little
inroad. And so then I'd try out like a couple
jokes. And then I realized to set up this concept
for this joke. It's just taking too long to get
those laughs per minute. So now it needs to be
like a themed show because it needs to have a
through line because if I'm going to put the
work into setting it up, then there needs to
be more payoffs. So instead, the way that I think
about it is, how do I create a lens? How do I
have... This is my thesis kind of statement.
I'll explain that, and that's going to take a
little more effort and attention span. But then
once we have that new lens created, now we get
to play in my world that I've created for you.
It's beautiful. It's a beautiful world you've
created. Thanks. So I want to go back for a minute
because you're holding on to this secret for
a decade that you want to be a stand -up comic.
Are you writing? When I was a teenager, I started
writing, yeah. Yeah, I would say, because I don't
think I started in eighth grade. No, I think
I was in high school, so I think I was like 14,
I think. Might have been a little earlier than
that. But I remember writing a lot when I was
14. Was that therapeutic for you? Yeah, and it
was inspiring, and I felt, maybe I'm on to something
here. And yeah, it was nice. But yeah, I liked
it. So I had, it's another reason why I took
off quickly when I started, because I had already,
not only had I been studying comedy for, let's
see, 14 years, like watching stand -up comedy,
like basically every day, like watching, you
know, like at least. I never understand comics
that don't watch a lot of comedy. I don't anymore,
but I did for a long time. I can see that. Once
you're in the world, it becomes this thing where
it's like, I'm going to work at home on a Saturday
night. But not being fans of other comedians,
I think, is something that baffles me. think
that like loving comedy enough to do it like
how are you not loving what other comedians have
done at some point in your life i like i said
i get once you get to a certain point like it's
kind of like after college people stop listening
to new music a lot of the time too i'm not one
of those people but yeah but it's you you like
what you like and yeah in certain and there's
definitely aspects of my life where that's true
just not with music or whatever but one thing
that struck me about everything that you've been
saying is that you started with a little bit
of animosity towards the ritual the group think
the group think yes and now it's become more
of something that you really want to understand
yeah um yeah so i really something that i really
like i've been tickled by and thinking a lot
about recently is there's these Mantui people
in Indonesia. This is just like an example of
how I like thinking through these things. So
these Mantui people in Indonesia, they have this
ghost crocodile that sometimes attacks and it
will make you sick. They have a waterborne virus.
But what happens is the shaman comes in. Yeah,
animism where the shaman comes in, tells them,
hey, a ghost crocodile got you. There's herbal
this and that, rest, some chants, and they usually
figure out that. what did you do wrong to to
where the ghost crocodile is like punishing you
or your family for for this and it's usually
you figure out that it's has because they're
like a very egalitarian and one of the ways in
which you sort of police that is like having
rituals like this where it's like hey have you
been too greedy maybe the ghost crocodile can't
i've noticed like oftentimes when you're like
carving a boar like you often take the good slice
for yourself have you been a little stingy or
whatever and i go oh yeah i guess i have maybe
sometimes been a little stingy and so then they
that family makes an offering to the community
that was so sorry and then the community goes
oh it's okay and then they all get together and
do a ceremonial like healing dance together now
that all might seem crazy to an outsider if you
you have the objective reality that what happens
is you just got a water virus but now let's break
down all of the mechanisms and why and so first
off there there's certain beliefs that are prone
to take off but also but also there would have
been other beliefs that were like spitball and
trial and error and so beliefs the there's cultural
evolution as well in terms of some beliefs get
selected for more than others and sometimes it's
because they serve these hidden utilities that
you may not be privy to but it just works and
so imagine a world before knowledge of infectious
disease in modern medicine and knowledge of these
germs If you, like even today, try to explain
to a hunter -gatherer, hey, this water, there's
these worms in it. And they're like, what are
you talking about? I can't see the worms. You're
crazy. It's very counterintuitive. And so, first
of all, the ghost crocodile, so they're learning
there's some association with water, had something
to do with water. Crocodile is this. archetypal
like water threat and it's very salient it's
an easy story to tell a big crocodile is a very
captivating scary thing and and then what it
allows so they're tuning in a little bit getting
a little closer than say a ghost bird or something
like that and and so then the shaman and it was
like often a community leader and so it will
be like hey we should stay away from this particular
water source for a while there's a ghost crocodile
around there that's pretty useful to switch up
your water source if you just had that illness
and then you can pick up on patterns of when
the ghost crocodile seems to come out the most
turns out after a heavy rain as when the ghost
crocodile gets really active they don't necessarily
know it's because that's when dung and stuff
from animal species gets in gets in and gets
in waterways and and you're going to be more
prone to pathogens and but you can pick up on
good and bad times to avoid the ghost crocodile,
areas where the ghost crocodile tends to hang
out more. And then you have, so whatever herbal
remedies or whatever may or may not do something,
I haven't looked too terribly into the idea,
but... But anything that can make you psychologically
feel as if everything's okay is going to be better
for healing. I believe it's going to work. And
the mechanism of action is that stress mobilizes
energy away from long -term things for in the
moment to get you out of danger, to help you.
hunt the thing or whatever else it mobilizes
energy to the muscles so it takes things away
from anything that isn't necessary in that moment
being like immune system this is why they do
double blind studies with drugs right because
they give one group the drug and they give one
group a placebo pill yeah so they everybody thinks
they're getting the drug yeah yeah and then there's
different things that add to a placebo effect
how big is the pill is the person giving it to
you wearing a lab coat and stuff and is it invasive
did you have to go through a whole thing for
it there's a there was a a heart valve years
ago where they didn't know if it was working
or better than chance and so they had three groups
they had a no treatment group a surgery group
and then they had another group of people where
they cut people open put them under and just
stitched them back up so they thought that they
got a surgery and that group actually did the
best because of the invasiveness and and because
then you think that you believe that i got the
thing that that fixed me and this is Because
the immune system is, and I also have to be careful
with this because another thing to explain is
there's reasons why vaccines are special and
important in our modern world because we are
exposed to way more pathogens because of the
human impacts on the environment than we ever
have in our 300 ,000 years. There are modern
problems that require modern solutions, and this
is what we've figured out how we can help. guide
the immune system to give it a heads up. It's
like, it's truly, it's funny all the conspiracy
people that think they're breaking through the
matrix. The closest to breaking the matrix is
giving the cheat code to your immune system for
defense for a potential threat that it's going
to have. Hank Green likes to say that humans
are just trying to solve problems and then when
they do, they create other problems. Yeah. and
there's always going to be new problems showing
up yeah hank green's great but so if and so then
the sympathetic the parasympathetic response
system that that re -regulates everything gets
the immune functioning back going again so your
immune system uses an incredible amount of energy
so if you relax if you aren't stressed out That
allows for more energy for your immune system
to do its work, essentially. This is the kind
of brass tacks, like simple mechanisms. There's
a little more going on. There's actual physiological
reasons. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They used to prescribe
Oseblup, placebo backwards, and then that was
eventually considered unethical, but you'd give
it to people and it cured a lot of things. And
then doctors could be like, oh, you got Osoflop.
And that's why all this pseudoscience, it does,
people do think it works. Oh, of course, it worked
for me. Yeah, yeah. My mom was always into every,
like, little homeopathic this and that thing.
My whole life, I've seen that stuff. And so placebo,
so a shaman coming in, doing these rituals that
leads to, a sense of comfort and relief. Now,
let's talk about why the blaming. So this is
rather random. They did not do anything to deserve
a waterborne virus. Yeah, they didn't take extra
bore. That was bullshit. Yeah, yeah. But its
interest is so, what that does do is it preserves
this idea of, so we have this idea of, that's
cognitively, relax i think a lot of these are
outcomes of mitigating uh overactive chronic
stress system that was built on top of some we
have a stress response system that was built
in mammals that don't think as far as ahead of
things as a and contemplate things that aren't
happening in the moment and like sweating about
those things and so we have these these like
ideas of a just world in our mind that if you
do everything right in life then then things
will go right and because brains that tended
to think that way tended to be more involved
and have more confidence in life enough so that
it was even though it was inaccurate and the
world isn't that way believing that got people
where they are and so and then there's these
like fundamental attribution differences that
are also self -serving and differentiating for
like in and out groups where basically if something
good happens to you you earned it if something
bad happens to you it's bad luck if If something
bad happens to someone else, they did something
wrong. Well, just believing that is comforting.
Yeah. If something good happens to others, they
just got lucky. Self -serving, it helps prop
up your ego and everything. And so then, and
the downside is there's all this victim blaming
and stuff that happens. And you're blaming someone
inappropriately for a waterborne virus because
that's soothing to others. Right. It gets slippery.
But that's one of the things that it does. Occasionally,
you just have a metaphorical appendix. That blame
may be useful. Oh, absolutely. But it's no longer
useful, but it's still there. Our brains are
not at all built for the world that we built
for ourselves. At all. No. We have microscopes
and medicine and stuff. Our biology has not caught
up to our... environment no at all in no way
yeah and i think that's that's where we see the
rise in things like anxiety and depression and
all all these things that i don't want to say
they didn't exist before but they weren't as
prevalent i think there's a lot of mismatches
i also do a lot of we recognize it more we're
living longer than humans had in the past too
so it just it might also just be an outcome of
living longer and then having to think further
into the future about a longer life than humans
ever had to in the past. Yeah, 45 more years
than most any human in history. That's because
of like child death and stuff. If you're gambling
on it, but even still making it to adulthood,
it was about 50, and now we're getting up to
75. and so that's another 25 years longer if
you make it into adulthood yeah and and so yeah
and i had never really thought about it like
that but that's yeah so a lot of i think a lot
of these features are about addressing a maladaptive
stress anxiety depression response that is Anxiety
can be really useful in getting you to roll up
your sleeves and get shit done. Depression can
be really useful in helping you pump the brakes
before investing the next X number of years of
your life done the wrong project or whatever
and can pump the brakes on actions so that you
might get a little depressed when you're feeling
sick because the ghost crocodile brought malaise
into the household but depression is a great
mechanism to keep you laying down and and so
then a couple last little things just because
i love the intricacy of all of this yeah yeah
so then then that the family's confessing to
a thing we're all doing something wrong once
in a while and if you they can study this and
churches and things that have confessionals is
if you have a place to confess to allow to to
drop baggage you can demarcate those things from
yourself you can put them in the past they aren't
a part of who you are anymore you can make amends
and if you hold on to them they can accrue and
once they add up and you have enough of these
wrong doings you start thinking of yourself as
a bad person and what's a bad person do bad things
and it becomes a self -fulfilling thing and now
you're getting more and more into anti -social
and destructive behaviors because of this view
that you have of yourself whereas having this
confession where you're allowed to like make
amends hey i'm sorry here's an offering is a
way it is can be really therapeutic and can demark
it and give you a fresh start and then and then
lastly that that the rest of the community because
of oh they got attacked for not sharing or whatever
that's as the victim blaming is a bummer but
accountability it's it's more that it's fake
It's more, it negates worry. Otherwise, if you
can just randomly be attacked by the ghost crocodile
any time for any reason, that's a nightmarish
world that you're living in. But because someone
did something wrong, then all you have to do
is do the right things and then it won't get
you. And that brings a level of understanding.
Why religion can be so comforting to people that
I don't know that I've ever... This is not new
stuff to me, but thinking about it that way is.
Yeah. It's one of those, huh. Yeah, there you
go. For sure, man. Yeah. And then the community
comes, and they do a dance. They say, we forgive
you, and we're going to do a dance to aid in
your healing and this ceremonial thing. And that's
bringing people together and playfully engaging
with potential threats is a comforting way to
address threats. Halloween was originated as
you're going into winter, the deadliest time
of year, and you're confronting ideas of death
and ghosts and things and spirits. Spring equinox.
Right. the constantine adopted like all of these
pagan traditions and integrated them into christianity
and it yeah it's yeah it's wild like how much
they've changed from their past utility yeah
yeah this happens a lot where it's like a lot
of early astrology was like great like navigational
tools and things like that now we have gps's
that didn't make astrology go away and some people
it made it because we still had an evolved preference
to making sense of the stars and patterns because
that was very adaptive in the past and now that
isn't the rubber's not meeting the road anymore
so you still have that feeling but it doesn't
have the same utility in which it originated
from and so it almost makes it seem more magical
to a person because it's like it's there you
can feel it but you don't even know why you're
feeling it and it's like we had to create I think
about like phone numbers. Like how many phone
numbers did you have memorized as a kid versus
now? And it creates this sense of wonderment
isn't there, but the excitement of getting somebody's
phone numbers. Yeah. Whereas like you could just
look them up on Instagram or Facebook or like
you're no more connected with somebody by having
their phone number. Like they can block your
phone number just as easy as they can block you
on social media. there is this like getting a
phone number still feels like a level of intimacy
that isn't following each other on social media
when really the connection is exactly the same
it's no different than but because we used to
have to like not only did we get phone numbers
and that was the only thing that mattered we
had to memorize those numbers if we wanted like
i knew all my best friends phone number man so
there's so much i feel like we could just literally
talk for But there's a couple of things I know
we have in common that I want to touch on before
we exhaust everybody from listening anymore.
They're on the edge of their seats. I hope so.
I know I am. I keep having to scoot back just
to not fuck up my back. But I know we've both
been to the Creation Museum. Oh, yeah. And I
went there very intentionally to study it as
a student of museum studies. I see the guy riding
the dinosaur and stuff. It's awesome. Humans
and dinosaurs. Of course we were riding them.
What strikes me, though, that's always struck
me about this place, and I'm wondering what you
think of this, is they use a lot of the same
evidence to make their case that evolutionary
biologists make to make the case for evolution.
They have a model of Lucy right there. They don't
pretend that stuff doesn't exist. They've integrated
it all in. Yeah. That's what you do. You integrate
it. You shift the goalposts and everything. Everything.
Instead of innocent until proven guilty, it's
beliefs. Beliefs. rather than knowledge and evidence
-based systems, but religiosity is truth until
proved metaphor. And then you always go, that
part's a metaphor -ish thing, or here's how,
and you twist around and make it all work. Yeah,
they're trying to make the, I don't know, when
I was there, they didn't have the Noah's Ark
thing done. They had it done when I was there.
Oh, wow. I've been twice. Yeah, I got to check
out the Noah's Ark. They've gotten rid of the
dinosaurs with saddles, though. Oh, yeah. That's
a trade -off. I think there was still one triceratops
in a corner that you could get on for a photo.
Yeah, yeah. What was your motivation? And I think
we brushed on it earlier. You used to have some
animosity towards groupthink, maybe rebelliousness
against religion. Yeah. And now it's turned into
more of a fascination, I would say. Yeah, and
trying to understand. My one stand -up science
show that I debuted this year that I'll be doing
next year is called Myth Understandings. So it's
going back through Roman and Greek mythology,
up through ideas of the early ideas of Martians,
for example, all the way up to beliefs in Loch
Ness Monster, Bigfoot and folklore and stuff.
and understanding where they come from. I think
Monsters, Inc. explained Bigfoot and the Abominable
Snowman pretty well, right? Oh, really? I haven't
seen it. Oh, man. I know you're a Pixar guy.
I am, but yeah. Definitely check out Monsters,
Inc. But then it's also with our modern world,
we still need to figure out there's still some
lines that need to be drawn for us to coexist
in a shared objective. that you might want to
have your story. I'm not trying to take away
your ghost crocodile. I'm sure a lot of people
would laugh at the ghost crocodile and think
that it's silly. I think it's beautiful. I think
it's wonderful and intricate. There are few people
that appreciate that ghost crocodile. Belief
system as much as me. However, we still need
to use, have Bayesian processing. And when new
information and evidence comes in, we need to
be able to integrate that, which humans have
been doing for a long time. It's just that now
we have modern tools like microscopes to go,
oh, there's this waterborne virus here. That
might seem crazy, but you can look through the
microscope and now you can see this virus. And
we can take all the time in the world to explain
it to you if you don't trust us, but you're welcome
to learn. And also, we're going to put some water
filters in so the children and the elderly aren't
getting sick from this water source. This is
somehow, if you're taking this as an attack or
an affront on your ghost crocodile story, and
you want to break the microscope because the
ghost crocodile is so important to you, then
I say, fuck your ghost crocodile. I don't care.
Like, at a certain point, if we're going to cooperate
as humans in a modern world, there are modern
realities and opportunities that we can't have
bad actors and obstructionists stopping us from
making the world a better a safer place to be
because their beliefs because you think you're
like covered in Christ's blood or whatever and
immune to everything. I get wanting to live your
life believing that you're never going to get
sick or whatever, but guess what? When there's
ways that we've figured out to help mitigate
actual pandemics, actual virologists, we're going
to sit down and see. what your understanding
of virology is. And if you're saying, oh, because
I'm covered in Christ's blood, I can drive on
the wrong side of the road because Christ says
I can drive on the wrong side of the road. Well,
Jesus has the wheel. Yeah, exactly, because Jesus
has the wheel. I'm sorry, but we still need to
function as a society, and your precious little...
They just took fluoride out of the drinking water
here. Oh, yeah. It's insane. And it's fine to
go and look for the Loch Ness Monster or whatever.
And I think it's great that there's a couple
of wackadoodles out there looking for the Loch
Ness Monster. I've taken a Loch Ness Monster
tour. What a lovely way to spend a day. It's
hilarious. You don't put the Loch Ness Monster
guy in charge of oceanic research, and that's
what's happening now. Because Loch Ness Monster
guy is going to fire everyone that didn't believe
their Loch Ness Monster story, put their friends
in charge of positions they couldn't possibly
understand the seriousness of because they don't
have a background understanding of how any of
this works, and then they're going to... Say,
hey, everyone stop what you're doing and look
for the Loch Ness Monster because I say that
I'm doing this for everyone else, but the only
thing I actually care about is validating that
I've been right all along while everyone said
I was crazy for believing in the Loch Ness Monster.
That goes back to what we were talking about
at the very beginning of this. This refusal to
admit, hey, I made a mistake. I was wrong. Yeah,
maybe the Loch Ness Monster doesn't exist. Yeah,
yeah. Maybe the water crocodile, the ghost crocodile
brings a water virus. These are ways that we
can put it together. Yeah, so we can have both.
Everyone's still entitled to their belief systems,
but not when you're being an obstruction. There's
people that have tried to attack weather balloons
and radars and stuff because every time a hurricane
comes in, psychopaths with their stupid 4chan
beliefs think that the weather station made the
hurricane. So they go, I'm sorry, but you're
a terrorist now. You've just committed an act
of terrorism. I think you're on to something
that you might not even realize, though, with
all of this. Because the element that gets taken
away by science is the cause. But the idea that
this happened for a reason that I can somehow
prevent. We're, not to say... there is all these
things that we can do with medicine to prevent
these things. But at the end of the day, like
we are ultimately powerless against the forces
of nature and physics and chaos and everything.
Yeah. That's where I feel like you're, and I'm
having this realization now, but I feel like
that's where the disconnect really is. Yeah.
People like simple. Magic bullet answers for
things. What you said earlier, Nick, not everybody
is a scientist. Not everybody is going to have
that deeper understanding. And not everyone.
You just have to trust them. Yeah, yeah. That's
where. I don't want to, if I get into an elevator,
I don't want to have to inspect the elevator
myself. No, but I do check the date. No. But
the reason why we have inspections, it wasn't
like. a given hotel's idea to be like, you know
what? I'm going to inspect this elevator out
of the goodness of my heart and put this little
thing up. We've decided as a society that we
don't want to have... elevators falling randomly
and so we have guidelines in place and we use
regulation that can always be made better and
more efficient and improved upon so that i don't
need to think through every elevator that i need
to get in to know if it's safe or not and and
that's it at the same time i It's not anyone's
right to break the elevator because they don't
believe they're natural and people should be
using the stairs. Yeah, and I'm not saying, I'm
certainly not trying to say it's right. Yeah,
yeah. But I think there's a level of understanding
I don't know that I have. Yeah. Where it's like,
oh, that's why they fight against this so hard.
Oh, yeah. Because their idea that it happened
for a reason gets taken away. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That. That's terrifying. I think it's a little
bit, some of it is a little bit of selfishness
of wanting to preserve your special sense of
magic or something where you feel like you have
special privileged information. This is like
the conspiracy. Yeah. Sometimes. Oh, for sure.
Probably not the ones that you've encountered
because they're the ones that are willing to
sit down and talk to you. Yeah. I pretty randomly
find people, and I don't get turned down for
interviews very often. So I don't think that
I'm experiencing too many sampling errors. But,
yeah, can some scientists be pricks? Yes, there's
pricks everywhere. I think about this documentary
called The Flock of Dodos. Have you ever seen
that? No, but I've heard of it. He sits down,
he interviews a bunch of... He was a biologist
that became a documentarian. And he goes and
he interviews a bunch of scientists, biologists,
and he interviews a bunch of creationists. And
at the end of it, he's like, who would you rather
have a cup of coffee with or a beer with? And
the creationists win by a mile. Yeah, I think...
That's probably some selection bias. I've had
plenty of beers with scientists, and I've had
plenty of beers with creationists, and I would
much rather have a beer with scientists. This
was a long time ago, too. I think people have
gotten a lot more divided since this was made.
It was a lot more... The point he was making
was that scientists aren't always great at selling.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's science communication.
A lot of the time, these are people that aren't
super social. They aren't super. Yeah. They aren't.
But I'm thinking about people that become specialists
in their field. You think about the amount of
concentration. Those are typically people that
just aren't the most social. Yeah. The number
of. threats that i got in my dms during covid
just because i talk with like actual virologists
and epidemiologists and stuff and it was always
because i do psychedelic shows and i've been
on rogan and stuff like that so i have people
from that are into conspirituality that happen
to follow me because they're interested in my
psychedelic stories or whatever and so because
of that i've gotten to i've gotten to see a side
Yeah, I know you have love and light on your
social media profile and all that, but I know
who you actually are, and you're a psychopath
narcissist making the world a worse place. So
I don't like... Yeah, I think that I'm going
to go to bat for scientists on this one. I would
say that... I would say... comedians are really
fun people with psychedelic communities are really
fun people but yeah but if i and there's certainly
like weird neurodivergent people in mathematics
and i talked with like social and scientists
and psychologists and stuff more so there could
be sampling things but yeah that that's the whole
thing these days is oh it's cool science Like,
primatology isn't cool. Looking for Bigfoot is
cool. Like, I beg to differ. I think you're a
fucking dork if you're out looking for Bigfoot.
I think primatology is absolutely fascinating.
And if you can't understand what is fascinating
about primate, like, you are a primate. Like,
if you... It's one thing. I don't expect everyone
to become a primatologist and take an interest.
in primatology but don't go hunting bigfoot and
tell me like like pseudoscience is like where
it's all at it's just that people it's just that
people want to think that they found like special
treasures yeah and and i don't I don't think
that I think we all I love when I form a new
connection and have an epiphany and think that
I've came up with an idea on my own and I want
to share it. And that is a special feeling. And
it's not a special enough feeling that I'm able
that I'm willing to like obstruct like public
health because for my ego. I think I guess what
I was. Getting at was just more that if we have
to trust people, and I think you hit the nail
on the head when you started talking about when
things started to get more and more entrenched
and divided. From a bunch of people trying to
say that they're centrists. Yeah. It's an easy
thing for a comedian to be like, hey, both sides
are crazy, right? Because then a whole audience
will be like. He's not talking about us. We're
the sane ones. Look at us, room of sane people.
Now we can hear jokes about the others. So those
crazy, dumb people out there. People, it's so
funny, comedians are like, people are stupid.
I'll be like, yeah, people are stupid. I go up,
I'm like, hey, I hear some smart shit. People
are like, fuck this. Like, they will leave. People's
precious little fucking egos. Yeah, I don't know.
It's a never -ending, it's an overly complicated
issue. We really aren't built for this modern
world. People aren't handling some of the advancement.
And maybe, much like you were saying with online
bullying, I know when YouTube first came out,
it was just like when some people first got the
opportunity just to harass strangers. You could
just go and yell homophobic slurs and stuff at
people all day long. You can call a thousand
people gay in a day if you are typing fast enough
and finding enough videos. There's been a little
less of that. There's naturally gotten... They
send their... They go to Twitter to further...
Or they have all these parasocial groups where
this person's followers will go harass this other
community's group of followers. It's better and
worse. But the other thing I really wanted to
get into is your Meow Wolf specials. Yeah. Because
I have actually never been to a Meow Wolf installation,
but I feel like I've been to their virtual installation
in Walkabout Mini Golf, which they designed from
the ground up. Where is that? I'm going to show
it to you after this. It's in here. Oh, yeah.
Oh, sweet. Yeah, I'll drop you in there afterward.
But they based most of it on the Denver exhibit
where you filmed your specials. I mean, beside
the kind of obvious, oh, psychedelic art, beautiful,
this kind of unique thing. What's obvious about
that? It's like when I heard you're doing a special
there, I'm like, oh, that makes total sense.
Yeah, yeah. For the listener, I had 20 different
artists contribute to the show, so that brings
my psychedelic experiences to life. And in real
time, with video jockey Michael Strauss, who's
been video jockey for a whole bunch of bands
and things. So in the same way that BJs can add
atmosphere to music shows. We've created kind
of a new form of comedy, essentially bringing
psychedelics to life in a way so that people
can have a little bit of a vicarious trip of
sorts. And it's a two -part thing. The first
one's about mushrooms and LSD and a little bit
like a psychedelic 101. And then... the second
one's like ayahuasca dmt and ketamine and like
a little bit of a kind of a 102 and so it's meant
to be just like a fun kind of introductory vicarious
trip that's accessible that people can show their
friends that are nervous about psychedelics or
whatever so people can get a sense of what the
psychedelic experience is like without having
done psychedelics and of course nothing can compare
to the actual experiences themselves it's a it's
something that i think a lot of people will watch
to inspire their next experiences and stuff yeah
i want to back up for a second and tell everybody
what meow wolf is oh yeah yeah because i feel
like a psychedelic disney world we're like making
all these assumptions because we both I know
what it is, but Meow Wolf, they're an art collective.
Yeah. They have installations in Denver, Houston,
Dallas, somewhere. I feel like there's one in
Texas. First one was in Santa Fe. Then they have,
my favorite one's in Vegas, actually. It's like
a really good take on capitalism in a fun way.
And then there's, yeah, Houston, Grapevine, Texas,
which I think is a smaller one. They are building
one in New York and L .A. at the moment. And
it's like a 3D interactive art. Yeah, it's like
a four -story psychedelic kind of Disney World
of sorts. of like you you go around and you can
like also solve these puzzles and stuff like
that as you go through and like various scavenger
hunts or you can just walk around and appreciate
all of the you know three -dimensional like trippy
art and it's you know what's cool is like you
go there and you like kids walking around and
like kids fucking get it immediately It's like
this alien world and then they totally get it.
But adults can really appreciate it too. It's
not like a little kiddie type. I've always seen
the psychedelics just turn you into a kid again.
Yeah, yeah. I think that we'll show that in the
future with MRIs. Once we can create recordings
of some of the visual inner worlds, I would guess
that... They would match things that match babies
a lot. I think some of the fractals and geometry
is just like the original natural state of sensory
information. DMC is what our brain is flooded
with at birth. Yeah. And death. Yeah. What did
you think was unique or special about Meow Wolf?
Has anybody ever... done anything like this with
them before it's the first special ever recorded
at a meow wolf i had to put together some connections
and stuff and it was really cool and it was just
like the perfect fit they got a trippy vibe and
it was for a psychedelic show it was hard to
do any anything else do it anywhere else it was
just the perfect yeah i feel like once the idea
was there it was like that was where it had to
be yeah absolutely like i said the moment i heard
i was like that makes so much fucking sense sounds
like you have a lot more in the pipeline too
do you want to tell everybody what else you have
going on in 2026 because sounds like you have
a lot coming yeah so i have these stand -up science
shows i might change the name a little bit but
i have this myth understanding show that there's
like a we just did an imax version but we have
a planetarium and dome version ready to go as
well since the sphere happened now like there's
other smaller domes popping up in different places
you have a planetarium climax here too oh nice
yeah i'll have to come back there's planetariums
everywhere and they're and no one goes to them
anymore so they're like actually really as someone
who was like really inspired by planetariums
when i first smoked weed at high school and everything
but then to eventually get really into astronomy
and learning about the universe i think they're
i think they're like so cool and underappreciated
and another thing that's associated with kids
it's like there's actually amazing planetariums
in here that i use all the time really very cool
on my back and They have presentations where
they talk about all the constellations. They
have a traditional one, but they also just have,
you can look and stargaze. Nice. Yeah, I'm doing
a little run -through of a show about AI. There's
this Cooperative Futures Institute using cooperation
research to think about AI alignment problems
and the new ways to think about building, new
ways of thinking about AI and how to build AI
based on cooperative models. I think decentralization
is the only answer at this point. Yeah, yeah.
And there's a lot of hierarchical oligarchy bros
in charge right now, and so there needs to be
a vibe shift, I think. The gambling of our entire
society. Yeah. The casinification of our entire
existence is real, man. It's crazy. Yeah, it
really is. And then I have a thing about using
examples of ants and bees and other social animals
to think about how structures and like civilizations
emerge from complexity and from rather than thinking
about things in a top -down way that's how we're
used to thinking about things and thinking about
how from the bottom up how some of these like
belief systems like the manta we or whatever
coordinate How this happens and how do people
naturally find themselves coordinating and problem
solving. Like not eating shellfish or pork or
things like that. Yeah. Very similar to what
you're. Yeah, yeah. It's like the Hindus and
the sacred cows and stuff. I don't think it's
any mistake that the people with the. They have
different breeds of cows there that aren't as
good for butchering. And especially something
that was incredibly useful, basically their tractors
and stuff and tractor factories to have things
in place to a lot of these belief structures
are ways of... helping the prefrontal cortex
to to do the hard thing in the moment for long
-term planning and behaviors to a lot of it's
about hedonism and so a lot of it's like how
do we manage our how do we have engage with better
self -control and and your guess is as good as
mine but a lot of these structures attempt to
solve those Those issues. So yeah, those are,
I think, the three main shows. Oh, I almost debuted
one in a couple days in Pensacola. Actually,
speaking of placebo, I almost debuted a stand
-up science show about the placebo effect. I
decided it wasn't quite ready yet, so I'm launching
it next year. So that's four or five different
shows. that i have going next year so it'll be
fun so once the specials come out like i'm very
much yeah my here we are podcast but i'm also
making sure that people know that i do other
things other than just talk about psychedelics
so i don't get pigeonholed too much but also
so people have reasonable expectations when they
come to see me because yeah i i like i'll probably
tour with a psychedelic show and a science show
in each city that i go so the psychedelic enthusiasts
can be satiated because otherwise if they show
up to my science shows and then they just want
to ask about drugs and we're talking about hyenas
right now how do hyenas trip bro come on there's
other subjects i mean that's one thing i love
psychedelics i don't love drug culture yeah all
that much i like a good festival and stuff Sure,
but when it becomes everything. I totally get
it. Shane, it's been fucking awesome having you
here. There's one last thing I want to ask you
about. Van life for tall people. Yeah, I have
a little bed extension. Any other tips? Not quite
as tall, but as a fellow tall person that is
interested in living on the road. Yeah, yeah,
straight. You need something tall. I think sprinters
are the tallest ones that there are. It's just
tall enough for me. It's the only time. Being
tall is an advantage in life in a lot of ways.
Van life, I wish I could shrink two inches every
time that I walk around. my van and that reminds
me of something else Hank Green says a lot is
like humans we would just be we if we could just
shrink yeah humans could just be like three feet
tall instead of six feet tall yeah yeah that's
funny yeah one need as many resources and such
yeah man Shane this has been fucking awesome
yeah thank you so much appreciate it hope you
enjoyed my talk with Shane Moss make sure to
check out his new special coming out February
18th on his website. There's a link in the description.
It was filmed at Meow Wolf in Denver. And after
the interview, we had a chance to let him check
out the Meow Wolf golf course that they did for
Walkabout Mini Golf in virtual reality. It's
actually based on the Denver exhibit that he
filmed his specials in. I think it was a really,
really great afternoon. Make sure to check out
that Meow Wolf course, if that's your thing.
It's in VR on Walkabout Mini Golf, one of my
favorite games to play in there. They designed
the whole course from top to bottom. Just a reminder
that this podcast is produced in everything from
start to finish by me. I do everything from the
booking to the recording, editing, producing,
distribution, marketing, everything. And in order
to keep this going and keep it sustainable, I've
launched a Patreon. There's not really any extra
content. There'll be some bonus stuff here and
there, but it's really just a way for you to
directly support the show if you like what I'm
doing. So check it out. There's a link in the
description. It's patreon .com slash Fenton.
Thanks a lot for tuning in. We'll see you next
week with Justin Long, a really old friend of
mine who played in a band called No Address.
plays with the Petty Nicks experience, and does
a bunch of other stuff, does some artist development,
and he was a producer. And we got into a big
conversation about the whole Tallahassee scene
and the toxicity of major labels and how they
treated bands in the early 2000s. Just great
talk. You get to know both of us a lot better.
I hope you enjoy it. Hit that subscribe button.