WEBVTT

00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:47.820
Welcome to Overeducated and Underemployed. We

00:00:47.820 --> 00:00:51.039
got a great episode this week. Just a quick reminder,

00:00:51.179 --> 00:00:54.939
I'll be at Flickr Bar next week on Tuesday the

00:00:54.939 --> 00:00:58.380
18th. And I'll be at Bird's on Wednesday the

00:00:58.380 --> 00:01:02.380
19th in Tallahassee. So come see some stand -up.

00:01:02.899 --> 00:01:05.799
Hit that subscribe button. A lot more of y 'all

00:01:05.799 --> 00:01:08.379
are listening than are subscribed. I appreciate

00:01:08.379 --> 00:01:10.739
that, but we got a lot of great episodes coming

00:01:10.739 --> 00:01:14.989
your way. This week is no exception. I sat down

00:01:14.989 --> 00:01:18.030
and talked to Jason Thrasher. Jason Thrasher

00:01:18.030 --> 00:01:22.629
is a photographer, an author. He's done music

00:01:22.629 --> 00:01:25.750
videos. He's a videographer. He did the Ghost

00:01:25.750 --> 00:01:27.829
and Most, Drive -By Truckers music video. He

00:01:27.829 --> 00:01:31.390
did the Go -Go Boots episodes. He's done portraits

00:01:31.390 --> 00:01:35.569
of Drive -By Truckers, Guy Dead By Voices, R

00:01:35.569 --> 00:01:39.510
.E .M., OutKast, Against Me, Widespread Panic,

00:01:39.530 --> 00:01:42.409
and the Elephant 6 Collective. He's been published

00:01:42.409 --> 00:01:45.799
in Rolling Stone. Photo District News, Billboard,

00:01:46.180 --> 00:01:48.459
New York Magazine, The New York Times, Bitter

00:01:48.459 --> 00:01:51.680
Southerner, Entertainment Weekly, Paste, Salon,

00:01:51.680 --> 00:01:54.340
Pitchfork, Garden and Gun, and Spin Magazine.

00:01:54.920 --> 00:01:57.560
He's done promotional photography for New West,

00:01:57.819 --> 00:02:01.599
ATO, Anti Records, Warner Brothers Records, Razor

00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:06.540
and Tie, Polyvinyl. And that's not even all that

00:02:06.540 --> 00:02:09.340
we talk about because he also went to India a

00:02:09.340 --> 00:02:12.629
couple of times throughout his life. And we had

00:02:12.629 --> 00:02:15.090
an amazing conversation about all of that as

00:02:15.090 --> 00:02:18.349
well. I hope you enjoy my talk with Jason Thrasher.

00:02:18.469 --> 00:02:22.830
He's an amazing person. Just one of those people

00:02:22.830 --> 00:02:27.930
that really drew you in. We joked he might also

00:02:27.930 --> 00:02:32.250
be most famously known as the father of artist

00:02:32.250 --> 00:02:34.310
Frances Thrasher, who we've had on the podcast.

00:02:34.770 --> 00:02:37.710
We joked that he's been recognized as her father

00:02:37.710 --> 00:02:40.310
like twice recently or three times or something

00:02:40.310 --> 00:02:43.960
like that. Yeah, he's just an amazing guy. I

00:02:43.960 --> 00:02:46.840
really enjoyed talking to him. I hope you enjoyed

00:02:46.840 --> 00:02:51.139
listening to it. I can't claim. I'm working pretty

00:02:51.139 --> 00:02:53.219
well, but I'm definitely not going to go stay

00:02:53.219 --> 00:02:56.719
overeducated. I've had a couple of people at

00:02:56.719 --> 00:02:58.039
first, they were like, I don't know if I should

00:02:58.039 --> 00:02:59.979
be on that podcast. I'm pretty well employed.

00:03:00.180 --> 00:03:02.199
I don't want to piss off my wife. I'm like, no,

00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:05.000
I'm the underemployed one. That's why I'm going

00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:07.539
around talking. I'm fully booked. I would like

00:03:07.539 --> 00:03:12.039
to raise the bar on what I'm doing. Underutilized,

00:03:12.099 --> 00:03:15.680
let's say. Virtually educated and underutilized.

00:03:16.159 --> 00:03:18.879
We're on overeducated and underemployed. I'm

00:03:18.879 --> 00:03:22.659
with Jason Thrasher. He's a photographer, author.

00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:26.340
I don't know. The list is probably longer than

00:03:26.340 --> 00:03:28.240
that, but those are the things that you're probably

00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:30.939
most known for. I think it's funny that I get

00:03:30.939 --> 00:03:33.490
called an author, I think. Oh, yeah. My writer

00:03:33.490 --> 00:03:37.009
friends laugh. Yeah, yeah. That's just because

00:03:37.009 --> 00:03:41.169
they had to earn it. They feel like you didn't,

00:03:41.189 --> 00:03:44.449
I guess. He just takes pictures. You did interviews,

00:03:44.610 --> 00:03:47.090
too. Yeah, I've done some. Yeah, I'm working

00:03:47.090 --> 00:03:50.389
on my new book, my India book, and I've had to

00:03:50.389 --> 00:03:52.129
actually spell some words and put it together.

00:03:52.370 --> 00:03:56.550
Oh, wow. Write some chapters. See, they're not

00:03:56.550 --> 00:03:58.169
going to be able to laugh for two. No, not at

00:03:58.169 --> 00:04:00.949
all. Yeah. One of the things that you primarily

00:04:00.949 --> 00:04:04.699
photograph, and one of the types of people is

00:04:04.699 --> 00:04:07.879
a musician. And so I'm going to ask you the same

00:04:07.879 --> 00:04:09.919
question that I ask musicians when I have them

00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:13.520
on here. What's the first song that you remember

00:04:13.520 --> 00:04:16.759
loving as a kid? And it doesn't have to be, obviously,

00:04:16.779 --> 00:04:18.959
you might not remember the first one you loved.

00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:21.160
I've got to go way back. I've got to go way back.

00:04:21.220 --> 00:04:23.560
The first song I remember loving, I grew up in

00:04:23.560 --> 00:04:26.600
Alabama in the 70s, and the first records I remember,

00:04:26.860 --> 00:04:31.990
Kiss Destroyer, was the first album I had. Actually,

00:04:32.050 --> 00:04:34.529
Patterson Hood and I called our production company

00:04:34.529 --> 00:04:36.689
when we started doing music videos for the truckers.

00:04:36.730 --> 00:04:39.649
We called it Destroyer Easter Bunny. Okay. Because

00:04:39.649 --> 00:04:42.089
there's a photograph of me on Easter morning

00:04:42.089 --> 00:04:44.910
holding the Kiss Destroyer record at, I guess

00:04:44.910 --> 00:04:48.310
it came out in 76. I was six. And my sister is

00:04:48.310 --> 00:04:49.990
standing next to me. The only reason I know it's

00:04:49.990 --> 00:04:51.629
Easter morning is because she's holding a brand

00:04:51.629 --> 00:04:54.370
new Easter bunny. Oh, wow. So the Easter bunny.

00:04:54.670 --> 00:04:58.149
My parents were rad enough to give me the Kiss

00:04:58.149 --> 00:05:02.670
Destroyer Easter. I can't remember what songs

00:05:02.670 --> 00:05:04.750
are on that album, but I remember that being

00:05:04.750 --> 00:05:07.790
my first, like, vinyl. And with Kiss, you don't

00:05:07.790 --> 00:05:09.930
even have to play it backwards to get the satanic

00:05:09.930 --> 00:05:13.970
message. Yeah, that cover, yeah. And then as

00:05:13.970 --> 00:05:18.029
far as songs, I remember I was clean early on.

00:05:18.910 --> 00:05:21.870
But before that, I don't remember a specific

00:05:21.870 --> 00:05:24.230
song, but I was like, that's the one. I do remember

00:05:24.230 --> 00:05:25.829
at some point, I don't remember when the Center

00:05:25.829 --> 00:05:28.149
Bowl came out by the J. Giles Band, but I remember

00:05:28.149 --> 00:05:33.569
buying that 45. Kmart and turning it backwards

00:05:33.569 --> 00:05:36.110
in the packaging so my mom wouldn't read that

00:05:36.110 --> 00:05:38.529
it said centerfold. But I think that was a little

00:05:38.529 --> 00:05:41.730
later. Do you remember what it was about KISS

00:05:41.730 --> 00:05:44.930
that first attracted you to them? The album covers.

00:05:45.089 --> 00:05:46.970
The album covers, yeah. The album covers. And

00:05:46.970 --> 00:05:50.209
then they just seemed dangerous. That's what

00:05:50.209 --> 00:05:54.589
it was for me with the truckers. I saw the Dirty

00:05:54.589 --> 00:05:57.230
South album cover. Yeah. Good album cover goes

00:05:57.230 --> 00:05:59.680
a long freaking way. I had no idea who they were.

00:05:59.800 --> 00:06:02.220
I was working at a record store, and it was going

00:06:02.220 --> 00:06:04.259
to be on a listening post, so we had a bunch

00:06:04.259 --> 00:06:07.040
of promo guys laying around. So I just took one

00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:09.899
home, and the next day I bought all their albums.

00:06:10.879 --> 00:06:14.800
Yeah, yeah. The Truckers, for me, it was, I don't

00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:17.459
know if it was the album cover that got me, but

00:06:17.459 --> 00:06:19.620
I, yeah, I grew up in Alabama, so I grew up in

00:06:19.620 --> 00:06:23.300
Huntsville, and I was not, I did not know that

00:06:23.300 --> 00:06:24.959
band. I didn't know the band at all. I think

00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:27.720
I'd seen the name around town. But it was, I

00:06:27.720 --> 00:06:29.800
got hired to shoot Rebecca's wedding, and she

00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:33.339
was marrying this musician guy. And I didn't

00:06:33.339 --> 00:06:36.620
know anything about them. And got to meet Patterson

00:06:36.620 --> 00:06:39.319
on a wedding day. So that was your introduction

00:06:39.319 --> 00:06:41.579
to them. Okay, that's interesting. That's why.

00:06:41.699 --> 00:06:45.879
I didn't know them at all. And it was, I think,

00:06:45.899 --> 00:06:49.779
either they gave me the Dirty Sal, or I got it

00:06:49.779 --> 00:06:51.639
right after the wedding. I remember sitting in

00:06:51.639 --> 00:06:54.970
the parking lot at this earth fair. and putting

00:06:54.970 --> 00:06:58.089
people on the moon came on, and I hit repeat,

00:06:58.389 --> 00:07:00.230
and I was like, what the fuck? That's exactly

00:07:00.230 --> 00:07:02.870
what happened to me too, dude. I got home that

00:07:02.870 --> 00:07:05.769
night, and four songs in, the fourth track, putting

00:07:05.769 --> 00:07:08.170
people on the moon, I just put it on repeat for

00:07:08.170 --> 00:07:09.930
like an hour. I was like, this guy should be

00:07:09.930 --> 00:07:11.990
the Poet Laureate rather than me. Yeah, I was

00:07:11.990 --> 00:07:14.449
an instant fan at that point. Hell yeah. No,

00:07:14.529 --> 00:07:18.649
that was it for me too. Yeah, that record, that

00:07:18.649 --> 00:07:21.310
song. Yeah, so we were a little late to that

00:07:21.310 --> 00:07:26.370
game. I was 18. Oh. I was in Athens, so I should

00:07:26.370 --> 00:07:29.610
have known. I feel like I was as early as I could

00:07:29.610 --> 00:07:31.730
have been and really understood what was going

00:07:31.730 --> 00:07:35.250
on. Maybe a couple years earlier. That whole

00:07:35.250 --> 00:07:36.850
time period was definitely in the period where

00:07:36.850 --> 00:07:39.029
I was, like, the Southern Rock guys came out

00:07:39.029 --> 00:07:43.509
in 2001. So then I met in 99 and got left Athens

00:07:43.509 --> 00:07:45.629
in 2000. I missed the first glans we were ever

00:07:45.629 --> 00:07:49.850
coming out. Yeah. And then came back and we quickly...

00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:53.439
We were running a company. We bought a house.

00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:57.279
We were renovating a house. We had started our

00:07:57.279 --> 00:07:59.319
family. So it was this whole time period, probably

00:07:59.319 --> 00:08:02.980
2000 to 2006, where I really wasn't paying attention

00:08:02.980 --> 00:08:05.319
to what was going on in Athens. Yeah. I was just

00:08:05.319 --> 00:08:07.860
trying to figure out how to make a living. Let's

00:08:07.860 --> 00:08:10.379
back up a bit, because I think my first introduction

00:08:10.379 --> 00:08:12.339
to you was probably like the Go Go Boots episodes,

00:08:12.680 --> 00:08:15.639
which I guess I forgot to mention documentarian

00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:19.620
earlier as well. But let's back up a little bit.

00:08:20.339 --> 00:08:24.699
So you're into Kiss as a kid. Yeah. Did you ever

00:08:24.699 --> 00:08:26.480
really? And the Village People. And the Village

00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:28.399
People. All the good album covers. Yeah, that

00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:31.620
album cover. Just colorful album covers. But

00:08:31.620 --> 00:08:34.799
did you ever dabble in trying to play anything

00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:36.980
or sing or anything like that? Was that anything

00:08:36.980 --> 00:08:38.840
of interest to you? There was a point in high

00:08:38.840 --> 00:08:41.519
school where I thought, maybe I'll get a bass

00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:44.139
and try to learn to play bass. And that was a

00:08:44.139 --> 00:08:47.840
joke. zero musical skills. I did the exact same

00:08:47.840 --> 00:08:50.179
thing in middle school for six months. I picked

00:08:50.179 --> 00:08:53.019
up a bass and joined a band. It's not easier.

00:08:53.779 --> 00:08:59.940
No. Maybe this is a way in. I feel like it's

00:08:59.940 --> 00:09:03.220
like if you're in a band of completely unskilled

00:09:03.220 --> 00:09:06.740
people, it's easier to blend in if you have no

00:09:06.740 --> 00:09:10.200
skill on a bass. So I was like, just be loud.

00:09:11.059 --> 00:09:13.559
But it didn't work at all. We actually made up

00:09:13.559 --> 00:09:15.200
a band called The Hoovers because we sucked.

00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:19.220
Yeah, I really could. The guy that we were actually

00:09:19.220 --> 00:09:21.639
playing in the band just looked at me like, this

00:09:21.639 --> 00:09:23.759
ain't going to work. Man, that's too bad because

00:09:23.759 --> 00:09:26.919
the band name's pretty great. That's awesome.

00:09:27.220 --> 00:09:30.500
I don't think any of the people in that band,

00:09:30.700 --> 00:09:32.399
because it wasn't a band, but any of the three

00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:35.019
of us in that band went on to be musicians. Yeah,

00:09:35.059 --> 00:09:38.980
we made failures. And I think... That's one thing

00:09:38.980 --> 00:09:41.120
I've talked to a lot of musicians on this podcast,

00:09:41.320 --> 00:09:42.840
but I've also talked to a lot of people that

00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:45.960
kind of do the jobs that a lot of people don't

00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:49.460
really think about in the music industry, whether

00:09:49.460 --> 00:09:54.139
it's photographers, people making album art.

00:09:54.600 --> 00:09:57.899
I've talked to Cain Stanley, who he like rents

00:09:57.899 --> 00:10:01.059
out drums to the Georgia Theater. He's a drummer

00:10:01.059 --> 00:10:03.440
in a lot of bands, including Cosby Charlie, but

00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:05.730
he also... makes a lot of money just like renting

00:10:05.730 --> 00:10:07.950
out drums to touring bands that don't want to

00:10:07.950 --> 00:10:12.809
back lining drums. So he, there's all kinds of

00:10:12.809 --> 00:10:15.450
different things. Where did you realize that

00:10:15.450 --> 00:10:18.929
you could, all right, I suck at playing bass.

00:10:19.169 --> 00:10:22.750
I'm not a musician, but I love this shit. I want

00:10:22.750 --> 00:10:24.809
to be part of it. How did you find your way?

00:10:24.909 --> 00:10:26.789
How did you navigate that? It wasn't really something

00:10:26.789 --> 00:10:29.830
I was thinking about at all. Okay. I didn't really,

00:10:29.909 --> 00:10:32.970
I always just took pictures of my friends' bands.

00:10:34.080 --> 00:10:35.820
But that was if they happened to have a hundred

00:10:35.820 --> 00:10:38.980
bucks to afford a vital film. Right. Back then

00:10:38.980 --> 00:10:40.580
there was like an investment involved. Yeah.

00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:43.679
I'm coming up out of graduate high school in

00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:47.279
89 in Alabama and then Birmingham. And I had

00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:50.679
friends that were musicians and I would, I wasn't

00:10:50.679 --> 00:10:52.120
really thinking about being a music photographer

00:10:52.120 --> 00:10:54.240
at all. That wasn't a goal. That wasn't a thing

00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:58.480
that I really pictured. It wasn't really, if

00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:01.389
I had early on. wanted to do that i probably

00:11:01.389 --> 00:11:03.009
would have gone a lot harder with it but it wasn't

00:11:03.009 --> 00:11:07.970
the dream i i wanted to be a gallery artist and

00:11:07.970 --> 00:11:13.049
do my own thing and the musician portraits that

00:11:13.049 --> 00:11:16.129
was just like favors for friends interesting

00:11:16.129 --> 00:11:18.590
something i really pursued in any kind of way

00:11:18.590 --> 00:11:21.250
there was a band called lovanova in birmingham

00:11:21.250 --> 00:11:24.279
to hire me early on to do some photos There was

00:11:24.279 --> 00:11:26.720
Van Remy Zero, and they seemed like they were

00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:28.480
very huge, and they were a friend of mine at

00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:31.460
that time. So I did some photographs of them.

00:11:31.500 --> 00:11:34.399
They weren't very good photographs. And then

00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:37.700
I left Birmingham. I came to Athens, and it was

00:11:37.700 --> 00:11:39.940
because of the music and the art scene and because

00:11:39.940 --> 00:11:42.840
of people like James Herbert, who was doing things

00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:46.399
for R .E .M. with videos, and Jim Cohen, the

00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:50.940
filmmaker. But I was more interested in art school.

00:11:51.639 --> 00:11:54.179
And art school was not a place where they encouraged

00:11:54.179 --> 00:11:57.360
something like music photography at all. That

00:11:57.360 --> 00:11:59.639
was not even a conversation. Those weren't even

00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:01.500
images that were being shown to us in art school.

00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:06.240
It was more documentary work or street photography

00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:09.299
or classics. So what were some of your really

00:12:09.299 --> 00:12:11.620
early interests when you first got into photography?

00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:15.460
It was people like Robert Mapleforth. So I really

00:12:15.460 --> 00:12:17.980
responded to his portraits. Yeah, I love that

00:12:17.980 --> 00:12:24.500
book, Just Kids. yeah i didn't know art existed

00:12:24.500 --> 00:12:28.220
i grew up in alabama not frostville smart town

00:12:28.220 --> 00:12:31.399
but i didn't go grow up on museums or looking

00:12:31.399 --> 00:12:36.740
at art books or art and luckily when i was 18

00:12:36.740 --> 00:12:41.779
19 i won a skateboarding place in a skateboarding

00:12:41.779 --> 00:12:44.559
contest we got to go out to arizona for the finals

00:12:44.559 --> 00:12:49.200
okay and while we were in arizona we bought a

00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:50.879
car, because we couldn't rent a car, we were

00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:52.179
too young to rent a car, so we bought a car for

00:12:52.179 --> 00:12:56.720
$300, like four of us shipped in $75, $80, $80

00:12:56.720 --> 00:12:59.399
bucks, whatever a person had, and we bought a

00:12:59.399 --> 00:13:02.559
car and decided to drive to Los Angeles from

00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:05.139
Phoenix, and the car broke down in the desert,

00:13:05.299 --> 00:13:10.159
we ended up hitchhiking to LA, we, yeah, we're

00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:15.559
the Tijuana, bought LSD, came back to LA, skateboarding

00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:18.379
around Hollywood and stuff that, like, tripping

00:13:18.379 --> 00:13:22.700
our minds out and go into this bookstore, an

00:13:22.700 --> 00:13:24.899
art book store. And I saw art books for the first

00:13:24.899 --> 00:13:28.580
time at 19 and saw photographs. And you were

00:13:28.580 --> 00:13:31.899
tripping at the time too. Yeah. Yeah. I don't

00:13:31.899 --> 00:13:33.720
really remember what photography books I saw,

00:13:33.799 --> 00:13:35.519
but I really remember looking at those MC Escher

00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:38.759
books. Yeah. I've spent some time with my MC

00:13:38.759 --> 00:13:42.460
Escher books. And I remember that night I was

00:13:42.460 --> 00:13:45.720
like, that's what I want to do. And it was fine

00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:48.860
art photography. And then. When I get back to

00:13:48.860 --> 00:13:51.919
Alabama, luckily, crazily, there was a bookstore,

00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:54.919
a Barnes & Noble kind of bookstore in Huntsville,

00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:57.440
Alabama that had a really great art section.

00:13:57.759 --> 00:13:59.940
And they even had the Mabel Court books with

00:13:59.940 --> 00:14:02.259
all the great stuff in Huntsville, Alabama. So

00:14:02.259 --> 00:14:04.519
I'm sitting there looking at these incredibly

00:14:04.519 --> 00:14:09.879
erotic Mabel Court portraits and Enzo Adams and

00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:13.759
Annie Leibovitz and I don't know who else at

00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:18.279
that time. But it was still like, I never had

00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:19.919
anybody encourage me to do any of this stuff,

00:14:20.059 --> 00:14:21.879
and I didn't really know what it was or how it

00:14:21.879 --> 00:14:25.279
worked or how you got to that place to be able

00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:26.840
to do that kind of work. But I moved to Birmingham,

00:14:27.139 --> 00:14:31.820
and I was starting photography school, and I

00:14:31.820 --> 00:14:35.039
remember getting Patti Smith's Horses. And I

00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:37.860
recognized that it was a maple fork without looking

00:14:37.860 --> 00:14:40.879
at it. Maybe I had seen the Patti Smith. Maybe

00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:43.100
I was like, holy shit, this musician knew this

00:14:43.100 --> 00:14:46.820
photographer. And I put that together. So that

00:14:46.820 --> 00:14:49.500
was like, the moment and then i started imitating

00:14:49.500 --> 00:14:53.220
that that style of photography with friends of

00:14:53.220 --> 00:14:56.220
mine at the time and doing like portraits and

00:14:56.220 --> 00:15:01.120
like studio lighting and really just kind of

00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:05.120
fantasy stuff nudes with bathing caps and nude

00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:10.059
backs with like wings and just really what was

00:15:10.059 --> 00:15:13.340
art so if they look like art or right you can

00:15:13.340 --> 00:15:18.169
tell And I did my first exhibition at 22 or 23

00:15:18.169 --> 00:15:20.350
years old in Birmingham, and my friends sold

00:15:20.350 --> 00:15:23.730
almost everything. And I was like, oh shit, they

00:15:23.730 --> 00:15:29.350
paid me $300 for that? And about the same time,

00:15:29.389 --> 00:15:32.190
I was getting really tired. The shit was hitting

00:15:32.190 --> 00:15:33.669
the fan for me in Birmingham. It was about to

00:15:33.669 --> 00:15:36.750
break up, and I wanted to get out of Birmingham.

00:15:37.009 --> 00:15:39.690
I ended up moving to Athens because of the art

00:15:39.690 --> 00:15:42.470
scene. I knew the music scene, but when I found

00:15:42.470 --> 00:15:44.330
out that Jim Herbert taught at the art school,

00:15:44.590 --> 00:15:46.509
that's where I want to go. I want to go study

00:15:46.509 --> 00:15:50.470
art with this guy. Even though he had known for

00:15:50.470 --> 00:15:52.870
a lot of the work he did in music, he was still

00:15:52.870 --> 00:15:55.549
an artist doing his own thing, his own art films

00:15:55.549 --> 00:15:59.970
and his own paintings. The music video was his

00:15:59.970 --> 00:16:02.409
side hustle, just something he did as favors

00:16:02.409 --> 00:16:06.429
for his friends. In his later years, he doesn't

00:16:06.429 --> 00:16:07.809
even want to talk about that stuff. He just wants

00:16:07.809 --> 00:16:11.230
to talk about the painting. It became my main

00:16:11.230 --> 00:16:13.009
mentor, so it was always a little bit of, okay,

00:16:13.049 --> 00:16:16.330
we're artists. And in Athens, everybody's either

00:16:16.330 --> 00:16:18.690
an artist or musician, so my immediate friends

00:16:18.690 --> 00:16:21.230
in Athens were people like Juicifer and the Starburn

00:16:21.230 --> 00:16:24.690
Boys. I think Juicifer was the first band that

00:16:24.690 --> 00:16:26.389
photographed in Athens, and they were just a

00:16:26.389 --> 00:16:29.309
couple of kids I worked with at The Grit. And

00:16:29.309 --> 00:16:31.149
then I think the Starburn Boys actually had a

00:16:31.149 --> 00:16:33.389
record deal, so they hired me to do some photos

00:16:33.389 --> 00:16:37.299
because I knew what I was doing. Neth was in

00:16:37.299 --> 00:16:40.779
that band. Talking to him on Sunday. Oh, cool.

00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:43.059
So there's a portrait of the Stardom boys hanging

00:16:43.059 --> 00:16:44.759
in Manhattan still that was shot in Manhattan.

00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:48.080
That was one of the first prints from my Athens

00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:51.759
work. Nice. And then my first paid job was actually

00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:54.399
photographing R .E .M. The night they signed

00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:57.539
my first real paid job. It was more than covering

00:16:57.539 --> 00:16:59.980
the cost of the film. Because the name was Flash.

00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:03.240
I got hired. My buddy Gavin worked for R .E .M.

00:17:04.809 --> 00:17:06.589
apparently needed their last minute they decided

00:17:06.589 --> 00:17:08.130
they needed a photographer to photograph them

00:17:08.130 --> 00:17:11.069
signing the record setting record deal back in

00:17:11.069 --> 00:17:14.130
96 with one of the brothers so i got hired to

00:17:14.130 --> 00:17:17.329
go to their manager's house first sounds house

00:17:17.329 --> 00:17:19.750
and photograph them signing this incredible record

00:17:19.750 --> 00:17:23.829
deal and i was like hugely over my head and and

00:17:23.829 --> 00:17:27.210
pulled the four band members aside really nervously

00:17:27.210 --> 00:17:28.569
and asked if i could do a picture of the four

00:17:28.569 --> 00:17:32.099
of them and i think i shot two frames How often

00:17:32.099 --> 00:17:35.099
do you try and get yourself into those situations

00:17:35.099 --> 00:17:38.460
where you're, like, in over your head? Oh, I'm

00:17:38.460 --> 00:17:40.680
in over my head right at the second. I feel like

00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:44.599
that's the only way to live. Yeah. The way I

00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:46.700
work is, I did a photo shoot this morning with

00:17:46.700 --> 00:17:50.019
Eric Falkman and his new band, and they met me

00:17:50.019 --> 00:17:52.099
right here, 10 o 'clock this morning. We had

00:17:52.099 --> 00:17:55.559
zero plan. They come in, like, where should we

00:17:55.559 --> 00:17:57.259
go? Like, which direction is the compass point?

00:17:57.339 --> 00:17:58.799
And it's, like, middle of... The middle of the

00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:00.500
morning, bright sun, not a cloud in the sky,

00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:03.259
the worst possible lighting scenario. And we

00:18:03.259 --> 00:18:05.180
just head out, driving out towards Converse,

00:18:05.220 --> 00:18:08.240
hoping to see something inspiring. And I go about

00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:10.839
five, ten miles, and there's nothing. I got,

00:18:10.900 --> 00:18:13.420
like, a car following me, five people. And it's

00:18:13.420 --> 00:18:15.440
just hoping that we're going to find it. And

00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:17.759
we saw this one kind of thing that might work.

00:18:17.819 --> 00:18:20.420
We turned around, went back to it, and had a

00:18:20.420 --> 00:18:24.960
great shoot. That was a good start. The old concrete

00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:28.019
factory where they make all the... concrete sculptures

00:18:28.019 --> 00:18:31.640
so yes follow your nose yeah just totally follow

00:18:31.640 --> 00:18:34.559
it and follow the light yeah yeah i know the

00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:36.579
word was which was the barometer point let's

00:18:36.579 --> 00:18:39.019
go and like hope for the best and then after

00:18:39.019 --> 00:18:41.180
an hour and a half we have probably 10 different

00:18:41.180 --> 00:18:44.160
great setups that's awesome good stuff got pictures

00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:47.700
of eric bachman on a hillside with a concrete

00:18:47.700 --> 00:18:51.059
deer a silhouetted in the morning light that's

00:18:51.059 --> 00:18:53.079
wild not something i would have ever guessed

00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:56.180
we'd get but it was like an amazing shot I can't

00:18:56.180 --> 00:19:00.200
wait to see them. Yeah, so it's always just kind

00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:03.319
of what's going to happen. I've done that with

00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:05.759
the truckers and many other bands. Sometimes

00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:08.519
it's really thought out in the plan, or I go

00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:10.880
out and scope some locations, but that doesn't

00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:13.859
even really work for me. The light might not

00:19:13.859 --> 00:19:17.359
be good at that point, or find a slot, but for

00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:21.700
the best. While we're on the topic, what's your

00:19:21.700 --> 00:19:26.559
approach in terms of socially or like with the

00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:29.200
interaction between you and the artist when you're

00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:31.099
when you are photographing like when you're not

00:19:31.099 --> 00:19:32.779
when you're photographing like a live event but

00:19:32.779 --> 00:19:34.140
when you're doing something like what you did

00:19:34.140 --> 00:19:36.900
with Eric Bachman this morning or or when you're

00:19:36.900 --> 00:19:42.200
doing these staged I think I'm just a joker I'm

00:19:42.200 --> 00:19:44.119
just joking around just trying to disarm people

00:19:44.119 --> 00:19:47.059
and have fun I think it's fun that we all kind

00:19:47.059 --> 00:19:49.319
of wear it good like it was a good time and we

00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:52.869
can hopefully catch something spontaneous, something

00:19:52.869 --> 00:19:57.730
soulful and real. There is an idea that has hit

00:19:57.730 --> 00:20:00.450
on me in India a couple years ago that photography

00:20:00.450 --> 00:20:03.509
is a big energy exchange. It's kind of like what

00:20:03.509 --> 00:20:04.750
we're doing right now. We're sitting here talking,

00:20:04.869 --> 00:20:06.430
we're looking at each other, and we're sharing

00:20:06.430 --> 00:20:09.650
this energy. And I really feel like my best photographs

00:20:09.650 --> 00:20:12.230
happen when that real back and forth thing is

00:20:12.230 --> 00:20:14.769
happening. It's harder on something I did this

00:20:14.769 --> 00:20:16.609
morning. It was five of us, and we're working

00:20:16.609 --> 00:20:18.450
really fast. But when I do a portrait, it's just

00:20:18.450 --> 00:20:20.329
like you or one person, and you're sitting still.

00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:22.400
You're really just hoping there's something that

00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:25.500
goes in, hits the soul, and comes back. Yeah,

00:20:25.500 --> 00:20:31.119
yeah. One of my first exposures to music photography

00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:37.119
was I was probably like 15. More than just singing

00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:40.700
the album art or whatever, but my aunt was living

00:20:40.700 --> 00:20:43.700
in Seattle. And the Experience Music Project

00:20:43.700 --> 00:20:45.660
at the time, I think it's called something else

00:20:45.660 --> 00:20:47.900
now, but it's at the base of the Space Needle.

00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:50.160
And Annie Leibovitz, you mentioned her earlier.

00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:55.880
her american music show was on and you got a

00:20:55.880 --> 00:20:58.980
headset and you would walk around each photograph

00:20:58.980 --> 00:21:02.079
and scan the little thing or type in the number

00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:07.160
and it was her telling you about the photo shoot

00:21:07.160 --> 00:21:10.640
and i don't remember word for word but she said

00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:13.400
something very similar when she met with john

00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:16.380
cash and took some of the last photos of him

00:21:16.380 --> 00:21:19.160
alive i think actually those photos of him on

00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:22.839
course she took And that it was like, I really

00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:27.079
just wanted to try and get him to be himself.

00:21:27.579 --> 00:21:30.119
Yeah. Especially when you're working with somebody

00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:32.859
who's been photographed a million times. Yeah.

00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:37.500
And she's another level there. She's a celebrity

00:21:37.500 --> 00:21:41.519
in her own right. Sure, sure. John Cash, he was

00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:45.160
probably aware of who she is. Yeah. There's people

00:21:45.160 --> 00:21:47.599
that have been photographed a lot, and they know

00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:50.799
what they're doing, or they put a wall up. And

00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:53.779
so it really is just about connecting, finding

00:21:53.779 --> 00:21:55.779
out, or having them give you something honest.

00:21:56.380 --> 00:22:00.779
Yeah, yeah. And I'm thinking back, just funny,

00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:04.299
I remember that was my first introduction to

00:22:04.299 --> 00:22:07.099
the North Mississippi All -Stars, too, was they're

00:22:07.099 --> 00:22:09.980
in that American music, because she had the wherewithal

00:22:09.980 --> 00:22:15.140
to photograph them way back in 2002 or whenever

00:22:15.140 --> 00:22:18.859
that was. I've never seen her photograph it,

00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:22.619
though. It's in the American Music book. If you

00:22:22.619 --> 00:22:25.440
have that book, I highly recommend it. I'm sure

00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:28.359
it's available still somewhere. Yeah. It's funny.

00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:30.319
I love that book. She's a bigger influence than

00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:33.240
I've ever really thought about. I'm sure what

00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:35.779
I do. Yeah. I'm actually thinking about your

00:22:35.779 --> 00:22:38.480
photographs of the All -Stars and her photograph

00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:40.940
of the All -Stars that I've seen. And they have

00:22:40.940 --> 00:22:44.960
a similar feel. I don't know. I don't know how

00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:47.890
to describe it. There's a reason I thought of

00:22:47.890 --> 00:22:49.849
that photo I was sitting here talking to you

00:22:49.849 --> 00:22:53.650
and it's because they're a lot younger than the

00:22:53.650 --> 00:22:56.470
photographs, especially the recent photographs

00:22:56.470 --> 00:22:58.890
you've taken of the All -Stars. Let's see if

00:22:58.890 --> 00:23:01.430
it comes up on the first try. I just heard from

00:23:01.430 --> 00:23:04.369
the wall. It must be on that wall. I don't want

00:23:04.369 --> 00:23:07.150
to dwell too long. I'll look it up later. I love

00:23:07.150 --> 00:23:09.430
those guys. I think I've shot them two or three

00:23:09.430 --> 00:23:13.670
times. There are definitely some guys that come

00:23:13.670 --> 00:23:17.799
in with that honesty. world they've always seemed

00:23:17.799 --> 00:23:21.180
like such genuine people and i've seen them in

00:23:21.180 --> 00:23:24.900
big venues and festivals and everything in small

00:23:24.900 --> 00:23:29.079
venues like little bars and they're they play

00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:33.019
the same no matter they play like they're playing

00:23:33.019 --> 00:23:36.000
to 10 000 people when they're playing to 150

00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:39.599
people i feel like they're they give it their

00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:42.730
all and everything yeah It's really cool. And

00:23:42.730 --> 00:23:45.089
here in the studio, I told you earlier that since

00:23:45.089 --> 00:23:46.529
we're on campus, they were the first band to

00:23:46.529 --> 00:23:48.250
photograph in the studio when we first opened

00:23:48.250 --> 00:23:51.250
this place four years ago. Yeah, yeah. I was

00:23:51.250 --> 00:23:52.869
just looking at those photos earlier because

00:23:52.869 --> 00:23:56.329
that was after Chris had passed and they got

00:23:56.329 --> 00:23:58.250
a new bass player. Yeah, well, I don't know if

00:23:58.250 --> 00:23:59.730
that was actually, that wasn't North Miss All

00:23:59.730 --> 00:24:01.289
-Stars. That was just something that Luther and

00:24:01.289 --> 00:24:03.849
Cody were doing together. Okay. Yeah, so it was

00:24:03.849 --> 00:24:08.509
All -Stars. Gotcha, gotcha. Anyway, let's, so

00:24:08.509 --> 00:24:10.910
you're, I'm going to jump back to where we were.

00:24:11.230 --> 00:24:13.509
on the timeline a little bit you're you moved

00:24:13.509 --> 00:24:16.569
to athens you're in school at this point for

00:24:16.569 --> 00:24:22.970
fine art at uga yep and you're getting hired

00:24:22.970 --> 00:24:27.549
to photograph rem yeah i mean there was no other

00:24:27.549 --> 00:24:30.650
there was a follow -up job that was the job so

00:24:30.650 --> 00:24:33.269
when was the next one like when did you start

00:24:33.269 --> 00:24:36.369
and i don't mean just music you go when did you

00:24:36.369 --> 00:24:39.390
start there wasn't one i think that must have

00:24:39.390 --> 00:24:42.819
been 96. Or seven when that happened. And I was

00:24:42.819 --> 00:24:45.460
deep in art school. And I was working at the

00:24:45.460 --> 00:24:48.920
Globe, checking IDs at the door. And I was washing

00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:51.220
dishes at my friend Hassan's restaurant, the

00:24:51.220 --> 00:24:53.920
America Express. And I was working at this restaurant,

00:24:53.980 --> 00:24:56.700
Guaranteed, mostly at those restaurants for trade

00:24:56.700 --> 00:25:00.859
for food. Yeah. And then... You sound like a

00:25:00.859 --> 00:25:03.299
comedian. Yeah. I told you that last time I saw

00:25:03.299 --> 00:25:04.799
you. My daughter asked me if I could have any

00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:07.059
other job as a photographer and stand -up comic.

00:25:07.539 --> 00:25:10.650
Yeah. I performed for free drinks last night.

00:25:10.710 --> 00:25:13.509
Yeah, there you go. Yeah, so I was just getting

00:25:13.509 --> 00:25:15.470
by. I was making art. I was traveling back to

00:25:15.470 --> 00:25:18.950
Alabama a lot to photograph a series I was working

00:25:18.950 --> 00:25:20.710
on at the time called Gold State. So I was going

00:25:20.710 --> 00:25:23.609
to Gadsden, Alabama, and I was doing a photo

00:25:23.609 --> 00:25:26.069
series based on my family, about photographing

00:25:26.069 --> 00:25:27.750
my family. So it was a lot of people that reminded

00:25:27.750 --> 00:25:31.450
me of my family and kind of metaphorical or symbolic

00:25:31.450 --> 00:25:36.589
of who we were and who I am. What was the...

00:25:37.180 --> 00:25:39.559
Like, the drive to do a project like that? Where

00:25:39.559 --> 00:25:41.660
it's, like, personal but not personal. Yeah,

00:25:41.700 --> 00:25:45.319
for me, it's always, the art is always, the projects,

00:25:45.500 --> 00:25:48.140
the good ones all have to have a personal angle.

00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:51.420
It has to tell the story of who I am on this

00:25:51.420 --> 00:25:54.079
planet. Or it's not, I don't know, I don't want

00:25:54.079 --> 00:25:57.099
to do it. I'm not a journalist, and I'm not really

00:25:57.099 --> 00:25:59.140
a documentary photographer, but I want to be

00:25:59.140 --> 00:26:01.700
an artist, and there's a little bit of documentary,

00:26:01.819 --> 00:26:05.839
but I'm not afraid to, like, cut fictions. Yeah.

00:26:06.650 --> 00:26:08.950
So it's not necessarily factual. So that's what

00:26:08.950 --> 00:26:12.349
I was really getting into at the time. My two

00:26:12.349 --> 00:26:14.289
favorite photographs from that time period were

00:26:14.289 --> 00:26:19.190
one of an old, probably older now than he was

00:26:19.190 --> 00:26:21.390
at the time, but this old man in this bar in

00:26:21.390 --> 00:26:24.730
Alabama that I photographed. He was in this Bill's

00:26:24.730 --> 00:26:28.869
Lounge, this neighborhood strip club, bar, morning

00:26:28.869 --> 00:26:31.650
coffee shop in the outskirts of Gadsden, Alabama.

00:26:32.359 --> 00:26:34.200
and it was literally a coffee shop in the morning

00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:36.119
and at some point during the day the waitresses

00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:38.059
would start dancing and it would turn into like

00:26:38.059 --> 00:26:40.839
strip club so i was going i went in one morning

00:26:40.839 --> 00:26:43.859
to get coffee and i met this guy named harlan

00:26:43.859 --> 00:26:46.839
and i've always known the alcoholism around my

00:26:46.839 --> 00:26:50.859
family i'm like 13 years sober now but i even

00:26:50.859 --> 00:26:53.319
knew at that time at what 26 years old that alcohol

00:26:53.319 --> 00:26:55.880
was an issue and i remember this guy telling

00:26:55.880 --> 00:26:59.200
me he was sober and it was his job was moving

00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:02.680
houses And I photographed him against the bar.

00:27:03.019 --> 00:27:07.019
And then it ultimately became a diptych. There

00:27:07.019 --> 00:27:10.539
were two photographs, one of Harlan, who I saw

00:27:10.539 --> 00:27:13.299
as the older version of me, the older sober guy.

00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:15.740
It's funny, how old did I say I was? You didn't

00:27:15.740 --> 00:27:17.920
say how old you were. You said that you were

00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:20.759
probably older than he was at the time. I got

00:27:20.759 --> 00:27:23.720
sober at 42, so I wonder how old he was. So I

00:27:23.720 --> 00:27:25.599
always thought of him as the older me. And then

00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:27.400
there was a young skateboarder that I photographed,

00:27:27.559 --> 00:27:30.160
like down at Doken, Alabama. And so that was

00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:32.720
like, this was like this, like, tiger -eyed young

00:27:32.720 --> 00:27:36.099
kid with the sun hitting the sweat in his eyes.

00:27:36.500 --> 00:27:39.440
So that was just, like, just two bar friends.

00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:40.819
It was, like, the young me and the older me.

00:27:41.140 --> 00:27:42.920
And then there were, like, photographs of, like,

00:27:43.019 --> 00:27:45.220
houses being moved down the highway that were

00:27:45.220 --> 00:27:48.160
just, like, out -focused and just, like, shot

00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:49.720
with too slow of a shutter speed. So it was an

00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:53.019
actress. And then it was, like, older folks hanging

00:27:53.019 --> 00:27:56.099
outside some bars, like a dried -up old alcoholic.

00:27:57.390 --> 00:27:59.450
This old man with a sledgehammer that I had met

00:27:59.450 --> 00:28:01.470
that used to play poker with my grandfather.

00:28:01.990 --> 00:28:04.450
So it was just from my grandparents' neighborhoods

00:28:04.450 --> 00:28:07.190
and things that related to that. So that was

00:28:07.190 --> 00:28:08.490
what I was really trying to do. I wasn't thinking

00:28:08.490 --> 00:28:10.029
about music photography. I was just thinking

00:28:10.029 --> 00:28:11.990
about these narratives and how to tell stories

00:28:11.990 --> 00:28:14.450
about where you're from and what the South was

00:28:14.450 --> 00:28:18.049
about. Do you mind talking about your alcoholism

00:28:18.049 --> 00:28:19.650
a little bit more? No, I already brought it up.

00:28:20.910 --> 00:28:22.829
It's a big part of the story. The joke a long

00:28:22.829 --> 00:28:24.890
time ago that my camera was an extension of my

00:28:24.890 --> 00:28:28.809
drinking arm. that's i that's i'm wondering how

00:28:28.809 --> 00:28:31.170
you think it affected your work both when you

00:28:31.170 --> 00:28:33.670
were drinking and now that you're not like how

00:28:33.670 --> 00:28:37.670
the what the you thought was big deal i the other

00:28:37.670 --> 00:28:40.089
one was the pot like i was a big pothead and

00:28:40.089 --> 00:28:43.349
i always thought that i was like organized and

00:28:43.349 --> 00:28:46.490
had my together until i got sober i looked at

00:28:46.490 --> 00:28:49.309
my archives and realized it was just like chaos

00:28:49.309 --> 00:28:54.349
yeah back then i always struggled with the idea

00:28:54.349 --> 00:28:58.359
i had an uncle Family members who were alcoholics,

00:28:58.380 --> 00:29:01.940
luckily my father stopped drinking for the last

00:29:01.940 --> 00:29:04.779
eight or nine, ten years of his life. And if

00:29:04.779 --> 00:29:07.319
he hadn't, he would have died of COVID five years

00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:09.500
ago. So he got an extra five years out of his

00:29:09.500 --> 00:29:13.819
life by being sober. So I always knew alcohol

00:29:13.819 --> 00:29:16.180
was an issue. I always thought it. I drank a

00:29:16.180 --> 00:29:20.099
lot. Those early days in college, I was definitely

00:29:20.099 --> 00:29:24.490
drinking and smoking a lot of weed. And it didn't

00:29:24.490 --> 00:29:26.329
get in the way of me making the photographs,

00:29:26.569 --> 00:29:28.990
but it definitely got in the way of me having

00:29:28.990 --> 00:29:32.049
a career around those photographs. Yeah. Yeah.

00:29:32.170 --> 00:29:34.589
Definitely. There's a funny, I tell the story

00:29:34.589 --> 00:29:38.630
of it, like in 2008, when I was definitely, I

00:29:38.630 --> 00:29:43.690
gave up alcohol in 1999, 2000, right at the moon.

00:29:44.029 --> 00:29:46.410
I gave up alcohol. I didn't drink for eight years.

00:29:46.549 --> 00:29:50.539
Just looked weed that whole time. 2007 or 8 I

00:29:50.539 --> 00:29:52.240
started drinking again and shortly after that

00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:54.180
we went off to Los Angeles and I had been doing

00:29:54.180 --> 00:29:55.480
all this music I started doing all this music

00:29:55.480 --> 00:29:57.480
work already so I went out and was visiting Warner

00:29:57.480 --> 00:30:00.299
Brothers and looking at trying to get work in

00:30:00.299 --> 00:30:03.019
LA and found a gallery that wanted to show my

00:30:03.019 --> 00:30:07.279
work and this gallery was like yeah we'll show

00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:11.259
this NASCAR work of yours and that's 2008 and

00:30:11.259 --> 00:30:14.900
I got so that was Talladega Talladega Tallapacandega

00:30:14.900 --> 00:30:18.990
the wildest party in NASCAR 2012, when I got

00:30:18.990 --> 00:30:22.109
sober, I found the prints in my basement that

00:30:22.109 --> 00:30:24.829
I had made but never sent to the gallery in LA.

00:30:25.509 --> 00:30:28.829
Wow. Yeah, so that's what pot did for me. It

00:30:28.829 --> 00:30:30.569
didn't get in the way of making the pictures,

00:30:30.609 --> 00:30:32.789
but it got in the way of the career happening

00:30:32.789 --> 00:30:36.490
around those pictures at that time period. It's

00:30:36.490 --> 00:30:39.150
interesting to me that you had this self -awareness

00:30:39.150 --> 00:30:42.690
that it was problematic. Yeah, and it was part

00:30:42.690 --> 00:30:45.109
of the series. The series was about alcoholism

00:30:45.109 --> 00:30:49.940
in LA. Yeah. Part of my big story was going to

00:30:49.940 --> 00:30:51.259
India, and that was right after college, and

00:30:51.259 --> 00:30:54.420
that was in response to a time period where I

00:30:54.420 --> 00:30:57.519
was drinking too much and some chaos was developing

00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:00.759
around my life, and I basically, the joke that

00:31:00.759 --> 00:31:03.380
people ask why I was in India was to grow up,

00:31:03.420 --> 00:31:05.880
and it's a funny story, but really all I really

00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:08.619
needed to do was get sober. Yeah, but instead

00:31:08.619 --> 00:31:12.180
I did this journey through this planet to get

00:31:12.180 --> 00:31:15.099
sober. I wasn't drinking during that time period

00:31:15.099 --> 00:31:18.960
much. I cleared up and was focused on Buddhism

00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:23.380
and traveling and making art in India. I feel

00:31:23.380 --> 00:31:24.940
like it was the best pictures I've ever made

00:31:24.940 --> 00:31:27.380
at that point. Did you ever feel like you hit

00:31:27.380 --> 00:31:35.299
a bottom? Yeah, I hit the bottom. In my version

00:31:35.299 --> 00:31:37.079
of alcoholism, the bottom was a very soft bottom.

00:31:37.380 --> 00:31:41.690
I didn't lose everything, but I could have. At

00:31:41.690 --> 00:31:44.470
that time period, no. The bottom was, no, I didn't

00:31:44.470 --> 00:31:46.509
have anything to lose. Did you get the motivation,

00:31:46.769 --> 00:31:50.130
though, for getting sober? The first time I quit

00:31:50.130 --> 00:31:53.789
drinking was when I met my wife. Okay. So Beth

00:31:53.789 --> 00:31:57.369
was shooting drink, and we went on our first

00:31:57.369 --> 00:31:59.970
date after that trip to India, and I was three

00:31:59.970 --> 00:32:02.970
drinks in on our third restaurant or bar we'd

00:32:02.970 --> 00:32:04.450
gone to before I realized she wasn't drinking.

00:32:05.170 --> 00:32:10.880
And I was like, you don't drink, do you? We quickly

00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:13.579
fell in love and I gave up alcohol like on New

00:32:13.579 --> 00:32:16.660
Year's Eve. What's that? Six weeks into our dating,

00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:19.319
I gave it up. I can't believe she actually dated

00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:21.740
me for six weeks while I was drinking. It was

00:32:21.740 --> 00:32:23.420
probably under control at that time period because

00:32:23.420 --> 00:32:25.920
it was after India. I would say the six months

00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:29.720
before India, which was 98, to when I was leading

00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:34.339
Beth, the alcoholism was not full blown. I was

00:32:34.339 --> 00:32:36.880
on a Buddhist track. I was doing yoga. I was

00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:40.519
working really hard on my heart. I don't think

00:32:40.519 --> 00:32:42.599
the drinking was huge at that point. But I did

00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:45.660
give up alcohol, and I met Beth, and then went

00:32:45.660 --> 00:32:48.660
eight years without touching it, and did smoke

00:32:48.660 --> 00:32:52.039
the weed, and got my business started, my career

00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:55.240
going, and then started working with bands and

00:32:55.240 --> 00:33:00.839
truckers, and it was somewhere along 2007, 2008

00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:05.220
that it all started to pile up with the two kids

00:33:05.220 --> 00:33:08.640
and the pressures of family and life, and we

00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:10.660
just They were walking in the kitchen on Christmas

00:33:10.660 --> 00:33:12.960
at her mother's house, and they were all drinking.

00:33:13.359 --> 00:33:17.000
Not bad. But her family. And I just turned up

00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:21.480
a bottle of wine. Did it feel like it was a coping

00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:23.680
thing at the time? It was definitely coping.

00:33:23.900 --> 00:33:27.220
But were you aware of that? No, it was something.

00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:30.259
It was probably the most fun I'd had at her parents'

00:33:30.339 --> 00:33:32.440
house. But it was definitely a coping thing.

00:33:32.700 --> 00:33:34.839
And then, yeah, I don't want to get into all

00:33:34.839 --> 00:33:38.589
the details. But then four years later, It's

00:33:38.589 --> 00:33:41.529
not fun anymore. It wasn't funny. And the funny

00:33:41.529 --> 00:33:44.150
thing that's not funny was when I, the eight

00:33:44.150 --> 00:33:45.990
years I was just smoking pot and not drinking,

00:33:46.069 --> 00:33:48.390
it wasn't that bad. But when I started drinking

00:33:48.390 --> 00:33:49.849
and then I was smoking the pot, all of a sudden

00:33:49.849 --> 00:33:53.450
it was like, ah, this is not good. Gotcha. There

00:33:53.450 --> 00:33:54.869
was maybe a couple of years where it was fun.

00:33:55.049 --> 00:33:56.890
And that's really the time period I was shooting

00:33:56.890 --> 00:34:00.250
all the bands. Like I, yeah, I started shooting

00:34:00.250 --> 00:34:01.970
truckers right after Patterson and Rebecca's

00:34:01.970 --> 00:34:05.509
wedding. I think it was four. Brighton and Creation

00:34:05.509 --> 00:34:07.769
Dark was the first thing I shot with those guys.

00:34:08.449 --> 00:34:14.389
Yeah, and as soon as I worked with those guys,

00:34:14.510 --> 00:34:18.869
at that point, I had lost my way as an artist.

00:34:19.550 --> 00:34:21.750
I had been doing things like skateboarding in

00:34:21.750 --> 00:34:23.170
the town and I helped build a skate park here

00:34:23.170 --> 00:34:26.150
in Athens. All my creative energy was going through

00:34:26.150 --> 00:34:28.010
skateboarding. I wasn't really thinking about

00:34:28.010 --> 00:34:29.690
being an artist. I didn't know how to be an artist

00:34:29.690 --> 00:34:32.219
anymore. I lost my way, like, in the parenthood

00:34:32.219 --> 00:34:33.780
and the homeownership. I didn't know what to

00:34:33.780 --> 00:34:36.639
say, what to do. I was a creative person. I was

00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:39.380
shooting weddings for a living. I was doing fucking

00:34:39.380 --> 00:34:41.420
shitload of weddings. Like, at some point, I

00:34:41.420 --> 00:34:45.539
got to 40 or 50 a year. Did that feel like what

00:34:45.539 --> 00:34:48.579
a band probably feels? Like, playing a bunch

00:34:48.579 --> 00:34:52.199
of weddings? Soul -crushing. Yeah. I love shooting

00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:54.079
weddings. Like, I'm still doing it, but I'll

00:34:54.079 --> 00:34:57.159
never be 40 or 50 a year again. And at that point,

00:34:57.219 --> 00:34:58.840
I didn't have any other way to make a living.

00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:01.219
I didn't know how else to do this in Athens,

00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:04.539
like how else to support a new family. Well,

00:35:04.579 --> 00:35:06.360
it's different when you get to be selective about

00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:09.480
which weddings you do. Anybody that wants to

00:35:09.480 --> 00:35:12.440
pay, I'm happy to do it. Weddings are fun. I

00:35:12.440 --> 00:35:14.739
will go down fighting. Weddings are fun. It is

00:35:14.739 --> 00:35:17.099
a great business. And the reason I chose weddings,

00:35:17.159 --> 00:35:18.659
there are a lot of other directions a photographer

00:35:18.659 --> 00:35:21.199
could go, and a lot of photographers like...

00:35:22.199 --> 00:35:23.820
shit on the idea of being a wedding photographer,

00:35:23.960 --> 00:35:25.440
but what was great, what's great about wedding

00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:27.860
photography, wedding photography presented itself

00:35:27.860 --> 00:35:31.219
to me in India in 1998. I'm sitting here in India.

00:35:31.400 --> 00:35:33.360
I had never, the only job I'd ever shot was for

00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:35.500
Aridam. The only time I'd ever really been paid

00:35:35.500 --> 00:35:38.280
to do a job. I wasn't trying to be a commercial

00:35:38.280 --> 00:35:39.639
photographer. I didn't want to be a commercial

00:35:39.639 --> 00:35:41.519
photographer. I wanted to be an artist. I'm going

00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:43.019
to starve to death and be an artist. I'm going

00:35:43.019 --> 00:35:45.139
to do my own fucking thing and that's it. And

00:35:45.139 --> 00:35:46.519
then I'm going to go to grad school and I'm probably

00:35:46.519 --> 00:35:48.940
going to teach. That was the plan. But in India,

00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:51.809
I'm sitting there and I had Started racking up

00:35:51.809 --> 00:35:53.590
a little bit of a credit card when I was in India

00:35:53.590 --> 00:35:56.389
and a friend of mine asked me to shoot her wedding

00:35:56.389 --> 00:35:59.710
right before I left for India and I did it and

00:35:59.710 --> 00:36:02.210
she had asked me like three times and I finally

00:36:02.210 --> 00:36:06.070
did it and I made some money and it was and actually

00:36:06.070 --> 00:36:07.550
did two right before I went to India. One of

00:36:07.550 --> 00:36:10.050
them was the first gay Jewish wedding, the first

00:36:10.050 --> 00:36:12.269
gay wedding I ever shot in 1990. I only did it

00:36:12.269 --> 00:36:14.469
because it was a gay wedding. There's this gay

00:36:14.469 --> 00:36:16.309
Jewish wedding in Atlanta and they paid me really

00:36:16.309 --> 00:36:19.159
well. And so that money helped get me to India.

00:36:19.300 --> 00:36:21.039
So I'm sitting there in India thinking, how am

00:36:21.039 --> 00:36:23.500
I going to make a living? How am I going to support

00:36:23.500 --> 00:36:26.480
myself as an artist? And it was like, I've said

00:36:26.480 --> 00:36:28.199
this many times, Joe was like, Buddha or God

00:36:28.199 --> 00:36:30.780
was like, go all in, photograph wedding. The

00:36:30.780 --> 00:36:34.460
only reason that what I learned was, or realized,

00:36:34.619 --> 00:36:37.719
was the only way I'm not going to make a living

00:36:37.719 --> 00:36:40.579
is because of my ego. And it's the ego that's

00:36:40.579 --> 00:36:42.159
like, I'm not going to shoot a wedding. I'm too

00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:45.619
good to do that. I'm an artist. I'm not. It's

00:36:45.619 --> 00:36:48.440
all ego. Yeah. So then I came back and I got

00:36:48.440 --> 00:36:51.280
asked to do a wedding. I was like, cool. Two

00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:53.800
grand. Great. I hadn't made that much money in

00:36:53.800 --> 00:36:56.820
a year at that point. The one kind of ego that

00:36:56.820 --> 00:37:00.400
got you into fine art. Then it killed the soul.

00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:03.539
It didn't really. Weddings were great. I have

00:37:03.539 --> 00:37:05.300
a lot of weddings from Star Trek, 500 of them.

00:37:05.400 --> 00:37:07.860
There was a time period around 2010 where I just

00:37:07.860 --> 00:37:09.840
couldn't do it anymore. I was doing so many.

00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:14.139
And that was also after I started drinking. So

00:37:14.139 --> 00:37:15.739
it coincided with that, and I thought about that,

00:37:15.739 --> 00:37:19.260
but that was when I was in 2010. Anyway, so I

00:37:19.260 --> 00:37:21.260
got into the weddings. It's a great way. What

00:37:21.260 --> 00:37:23.099
I love about the weddings was it was a way to

00:37:23.099 --> 00:37:25.480
make a living with photography that was not selling

00:37:25.480 --> 00:37:27.780
out. You're not making art for a corporation.

00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:30.679
You're not making images for Coca -Cola or for

00:37:30.679 --> 00:37:33.739
some big advertising firm. It was all about something

00:37:33.739 --> 00:37:36.860
that somebody would appreciate. In a lot of cases,

00:37:36.860 --> 00:37:39.869
it's like... the happiest people are going to

00:37:39.869 --> 00:37:42.070
be for a long time. Yeah, there's some stress

00:37:42.070 --> 00:37:45.650
to it. But yeah, the work had legitimate, soulful

00:37:45.650 --> 00:37:48.690
reasons to exist. You're drinking, you're doing

00:37:48.690 --> 00:37:51.909
wedding photography. Is that the only thing you're

00:37:51.909 --> 00:37:53.309
having to do to pay the bills at this point?

00:37:53.510 --> 00:37:56.289
At that point, weddings was my business. And

00:37:56.289 --> 00:38:01.010
then I helped build the Athens Skate Park. So

00:38:01.010 --> 00:38:02.050
it was this time period where I was like, I'll

00:38:02.050 --> 00:38:04.849
build a skate park, renovating a house, shooting

00:38:04.849 --> 00:38:08.710
really weddings. Who am I now? I don't know what

00:38:08.710 --> 00:38:10.789
I'm doing anymore as an artist. I'm just completely,

00:38:10.869 --> 00:38:12.789
literally just completely lost as an artist.

00:38:13.230 --> 00:38:15.789
And then I shot Patterson and Rebecca's wedding.

00:38:16.050 --> 00:38:20.030
And then our first children were due the same

00:38:20.030 --> 00:38:22.130
day. And Patterson has told the story that his

00:38:22.130 --> 00:38:24.110
wedding reception is so good that four children

00:38:24.110 --> 00:38:26.550
were conceived that night. And he literally pointed

00:38:26.550 --> 00:38:28.090
to me from the stage and told the story. He goes,

00:38:28.110 --> 00:38:30.269
even our photographer knocked up his wife. So

00:38:30.269 --> 00:38:34.940
Eli and Francis were due on the same day. responsible

00:38:34.940 --> 00:38:39.019
for his own album cover. Yeah. Yeah. It's all

00:38:39.019 --> 00:38:41.920
in the family. So we got to know those guys through,

00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:44.659
like, Plager. And I had known Rebecca for years

00:38:44.659 --> 00:38:47.380
at that point. Hanging out at Plager, but we're

00:38:47.380 --> 00:38:49.000
sitting around the playground with his little

00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:54.039
babies. And the first photo I did with the truckers

00:38:54.039 --> 00:38:56.719
was the day that Isabel left and had her band

00:38:56.719 --> 00:39:01.579
photo today. And the band was Scamer. And that

00:39:01.579 --> 00:39:03.400
was the first time. So I never got to shoot Jason.

00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:06.139
so that was the first time that i met the rest

00:39:06.139 --> 00:39:08.300
of the band and photographed i guess i met them

00:39:08.300 --> 00:39:11.039
at the wedding but i shot them shot them truckers

00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:14.280
with schooner and got great stuff and then went

00:39:14.280 --> 00:39:16.079
straight into working on that record did a ton

00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:19.539
of stuff we did a video for my first music video

00:39:19.539 --> 00:39:23.840
ever was for goes to most okay i don't think

00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:25.900
i realized that you had done that music video,

00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:28.420
I'm sorry. Yeah, that's alright. I still think

00:39:28.420 --> 00:39:29.739
it's my favorite point of my favorite music video.

00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:32.139
Yeah, it's awesome. I love that video. Yeah.

00:39:32.260 --> 00:39:34.119
What I love about that video was the phone call

00:39:34.119 --> 00:39:37.079
I got from Cooley after we finished it, and he

00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:40.619
called me. I was in the Airbrush T -shirt shop

00:39:40.619 --> 00:39:42.659
in Panama City with the family, and I get this

00:39:42.659 --> 00:39:45.500
phone call from Cooley, and he's like, man, I

00:39:45.500 --> 00:39:47.079
didn't know what that song was about, so I saw

00:39:47.079 --> 00:39:50.539
the video. I love that. So from that point on,

00:39:50.619 --> 00:39:52.989
I was like... all in on the band and the music

00:39:52.989 --> 00:39:55.150
and doing that stuff and i started getting calls

00:39:55.150 --> 00:39:57.849
because of the trucker stuff i was either a favor

00:39:57.849 --> 00:39:59.829
for a friend i started working without chambers

00:39:59.829 --> 00:40:02.429
and anybody in athens that i knew for years and

00:40:02.429 --> 00:40:05.289
loved and actually photographs and i was getting

00:40:05.289 --> 00:40:06.889
because the trucker stopped getting calls from

00:40:06.889 --> 00:40:09.110
bigger acts that were coming through athens like

00:40:09.110 --> 00:40:11.730
the north and south stars or did a trip to la

00:40:11.730 --> 00:40:13.989
to try to like make some connections with people

00:40:13.989 --> 00:40:16.789
i knew and got like against me out of that and

00:40:17.279 --> 00:40:19.179
crafter which is funny because they were david's

00:40:19.179 --> 00:40:21.619
here but yeah yeah crafter well i was in los

00:40:21.619 --> 00:40:24.900
angeles and i'm talking to brian soon oh cool

00:40:24.900 --> 00:40:27.219
yeah i think next month we're gonna yeah i'm

00:40:27.219 --> 00:40:28.599
just gonna come on the guy's got a great voice

00:40:28.599 --> 00:40:31.480
he's done some voiceover work for me oh really

00:40:31.480 --> 00:40:34.099
some videos yeah he does a lot he does quite

00:40:34.099 --> 00:40:36.159
a bit of that yeah yeah so he was yeah i'm not

00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:37.780
gonna name the company because the company was

00:40:37.780 --> 00:40:40.940
they're gone it wasn't great great company but

00:40:40.940 --> 00:40:43.039
he was my voice in this company for a while nice

00:40:43.039 --> 00:40:47.130
nice yeah he's great and So then it was really

00:40:47.130 --> 00:40:51.329
like, what, 2007 to 2012, just an avalanche of

00:40:51.329 --> 00:40:53.929
me shooting bands and music. And at what point

00:40:53.929 --> 00:40:58.190
in there did you get sober again? 2012. So you're

00:40:58.190 --> 00:41:00.670
drinking at that point, but you're also, were

00:41:00.670 --> 00:41:02.590
you drinking like while you're shooting the band,

00:41:02.670 --> 00:41:05.110
like at the show? Yeah. It's the party, right?

00:41:05.309 --> 00:41:07.750
It's a party. Yeah, about two or three in the

00:41:07.750 --> 00:41:11.750
morning. Kids at home, like not being responsible,

00:41:11.989 --> 00:41:17.849
but having a blast. But it enabled me to break

00:41:17.849 --> 00:41:19.969
out of just being a wedding photographer, which

00:41:19.969 --> 00:41:22.050
was really killing me by that point. I didn't

00:41:22.050 --> 00:41:23.969
want to be known for my wedding photography.

00:41:24.130 --> 00:41:26.530
I just wanted to get paid. Yeah, yeah. Shoot

00:41:26.530 --> 00:41:29.730
those jobs. And then somehow in the music stuff

00:41:29.730 --> 00:41:32.489
also, I started getting more day -to -day commercial

00:41:32.489 --> 00:41:37.170
stuff. And I do think working with bands and

00:41:37.170 --> 00:41:40.090
so many Athens icons has helped me stand out

00:41:40.090 --> 00:41:42.380
in the Athens. community as an artist and a photographer,

00:41:42.579 --> 00:41:45.579
so I get hired because people like my photograph

00:41:45.579 --> 00:41:47.860
of panic. I'll get a wedding, or I'll shoot a

00:41:47.860 --> 00:41:50.000
wedding because the couple met at a drive -by

00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:53.280
trucker show. Or somebody at a music band, and

00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:56.039
they know my works. So, well, from there. Right.

00:41:56.579 --> 00:42:00.340
But there became a dark side to the music work

00:42:00.340 --> 00:42:03.599
for me. Not just the alcohol part, but the soul

00:42:03.599 --> 00:42:06.409
part. I got really frustrated. You can only shoot

00:42:06.409 --> 00:42:08.650
so many weddings without getting a little tired

00:42:08.650 --> 00:42:10.630
of shooting weddings. You can only shoot so many

00:42:10.630 --> 00:42:12.590
groups of five guys lined up against a cool backdrop

00:42:12.590 --> 00:42:14.389
without getting sick of shooting five guys lined

00:42:14.389 --> 00:42:16.630
up against a backdrop. And then having their

00:42:16.630 --> 00:42:19.349
record label use things in ways that you weren't

00:42:19.349 --> 00:42:21.789
hoping. Choosing an image that you didn't want

00:42:21.789 --> 00:42:24.269
to use. Or then sending one out to a magazine

00:42:24.269 --> 00:42:28.010
without having to retouch it. Like I said, there's

00:42:28.010 --> 00:42:32.690
a lot of frustrations even in that. About how

00:42:32.690 --> 00:42:36.340
cool that was. This is still... What ultimately

00:42:36.340 --> 00:42:38.900
realized it was still commercial started. It

00:42:38.900 --> 00:42:42.079
wasn't my hour. But you're always someone, I

00:42:42.079 --> 00:42:45.440
think, that also has really tried to invest in

00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:48.860
the community. Yeah, 100%. And I think that's

00:42:48.860 --> 00:42:50.900
part of why you... There were so many people

00:42:50.900 --> 00:42:54.480
invested in me. Exactly. Because you mentioned

00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:56.940
it briefly, you built the skate park here. You've

00:42:56.940 --> 00:43:00.079
done a book about Athens. That's what I was getting

00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:03.800
to. So Athens Potluck was my answer to being

00:43:03.800 --> 00:43:07.340
burnt out on shooting bands. So I wanted to focus

00:43:07.340 --> 00:43:09.119
on individuals, and I wanted to do something

00:43:09.119 --> 00:43:11.500
for myself on music. I wanted to do something

00:43:11.500 --> 00:43:14.019
that was personal on music and about Athens and

00:43:14.019 --> 00:43:17.480
not about the bands. Gotcha. Yeah, so that was

00:43:17.480 --> 00:43:20.079
the whole way into Athens Potluck. Beth was the

00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:23.079
one that had the idea that for months I was trying

00:43:23.079 --> 00:43:24.579
to figure out how to do this book about Athens.

00:43:25.320 --> 00:43:27.099
There was an idea that it would be this book

00:43:27.099 --> 00:43:29.250
of all my band work. And then I'd have to go

00:43:29.250 --> 00:43:31.190
find some bands and shoot some bands. I was like,

00:43:31.210 --> 00:43:32.929
I never got to shoot R .E .M. as a full band,

00:43:33.090 --> 00:43:34.750
other than that part where that picture's not

00:43:34.750 --> 00:43:38.269
something for that. Or I never got to shoot Two's.

00:43:38.269 --> 00:43:41.110
I did shoot Pylon, luckily. But Buckville I didn't

00:43:41.110 --> 00:43:44.309
shoot. And a lot of history I didn't have. So

00:43:44.309 --> 00:43:46.989
then it became this big conversation with UJ

00:43:46.989 --> 00:43:48.929
Press and Flagpole that I'd be a curator of the

00:43:48.929 --> 00:43:51.329
book. And I'd go and find, and I was like, I

00:43:51.329 --> 00:43:54.269
don't want to do that. And then I was like, I

00:43:54.269 --> 00:43:56.590
just want to photograph. Individuals, because

00:43:56.590 --> 00:43:59.250
I like doing portraits, my main thing, and that's

00:43:59.250 --> 00:44:02.070
what I'm best at. And then Depp had the idea

00:44:02.070 --> 00:44:04.550
that if I shot the first person, then that person

00:44:04.550 --> 00:44:06.590
could pick the next person. And that was the

00:44:06.590 --> 00:44:08.730
missing link, was that's how we could journey

00:44:08.730 --> 00:44:11.590
through Athens to tell the story that, like,

00:44:11.590 --> 00:44:14.150
the legends don't have to be picked, and it can

00:44:14.150 --> 00:44:16.909
still work. Michael Cypress ultimately picked,

00:44:17.030 --> 00:44:19.670
but even if he hadn't been, there's still references

00:44:19.670 --> 00:44:21.210
to Aryan in the book, and there's references

00:44:21.210 --> 00:44:24.090
to the 52s, and there's references to... Well,

00:44:24.090 --> 00:44:27.710
it may have a life of its own in a way. So potluck

00:44:27.710 --> 00:44:31.110
was my way to do something personal, doing an

00:44:31.110 --> 00:44:35.210
art project on the music scene. And that was

00:44:35.210 --> 00:44:37.130
really where I found myself as an artist again.

00:44:37.710 --> 00:44:40.690
And as I was shooting potluck, I was probably

00:44:40.690 --> 00:44:43.489
two years into it, two and a half years into

00:44:43.489 --> 00:44:46.690
it, when I got sober. And at that point, I was

00:44:46.690 --> 00:44:48.489
really frustrated. I was shooting bands. I was

00:44:48.489 --> 00:44:51.190
like, I don't know. It starts to be the same

00:44:51.190 --> 00:44:55.110
thing after a while. And then I really had lost

00:44:55.110 --> 00:44:56.909
interest in shooting live shows or much else,

00:44:56.909 --> 00:44:58.389
even going out for live shows. Like, I don't

00:44:58.389 --> 00:45:00.489
really go out that much. I started giving up

00:45:00.489 --> 00:45:03.730
at 4 or 5 in the morning and just got lit. I'm

00:45:03.730 --> 00:45:04.949
just going to be an artist. I want to be where

00:45:04.949 --> 00:45:07.670
I think again. I want to find stories to tell

00:45:07.670 --> 00:45:13.050
that are personal. And I started working on the

00:45:13.050 --> 00:45:15.309
Burma Chesil Project and digging into Athens

00:45:15.309 --> 00:45:17.789
Potluck and finishing that project. That came

00:45:17.789 --> 00:45:21.130
out in 2017, so that's five years right there.

00:45:21.929 --> 00:45:24.369
You think you would have finished the book without

00:45:24.369 --> 00:45:27.929
getting sober? No. No way. No way, because the

00:45:27.929 --> 00:45:29.730
process of getting the book done, both books,

00:45:29.789 --> 00:45:31.769
neither book would exist, because the process

00:45:31.769 --> 00:45:33.769
of getting the books done required full focus,

00:45:34.030 --> 00:45:38.530
like full mental focus on we had to do a crowdsourcing

00:45:38.530 --> 00:45:41.909
campaign, we had to do these events, we put shows

00:45:41.909 --> 00:45:44.909
on at the Forty What and the Dorsey Theater to

00:45:44.909 --> 00:45:46.849
help raise awareness and funds and pre -sales,

00:45:46.989 --> 00:45:49.489
and no way I could have done that. Yeah, I would

00:45:49.489 --> 00:45:51.500
have pissed people off. I could have finished

00:45:51.500 --> 00:45:54.719
shooting the work. Was that kind of one of the

00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:57.179
issues you had? When you were drinking, would

00:45:57.179 --> 00:46:00.659
you run an out? No, I didn't have that many people

00:46:00.659 --> 00:46:02.519
coming up to me saying that I pissed anybody

00:46:02.519 --> 00:46:05.340
off. When I got sober, people were like, what

00:46:05.340 --> 00:46:08.760
do you mean you had a problem? Yeah, yeah. I

00:46:08.760 --> 00:46:10.599
feel like a lot of people said that about B .J.

00:46:10.599 --> 00:46:14.199
Barham because he never got too out of control

00:46:14.199 --> 00:46:15.880
from the American choir. I got to tell a story

00:46:15.880 --> 00:46:17.500
earlier about a night where I was out of control.

00:46:18.269 --> 00:46:21.050
yeah yeah earlier so there were moments but it

00:46:21.050 --> 00:46:22.489
would be mostly the only person that knows is

00:46:22.489 --> 00:46:25.849
my wife man beth was done with my drinking and

00:46:25.849 --> 00:46:28.349
i'm one of those people that i'm so grateful

00:46:28.349 --> 00:46:31.949
that i had that moment where i had to quit because

00:46:31.949 --> 00:46:35.389
if i was still if i was a part -time drinker

00:46:35.389 --> 00:46:37.769
i wouldn't have what i have i wouldn't have the

00:46:37.769 --> 00:46:40.050
focus that i have i wouldn't have the work that

00:46:40.050 --> 00:46:42.829
i have like i love this variety thing i'm not

00:46:42.829 --> 00:46:44.730
one of those we're talking about it now but i

00:46:44.730 --> 00:46:47.010
never really talk about it yeah yeah When I asked

00:46:47.010 --> 00:46:48.929
you, and I appreciate you talking about it. It

00:46:48.929 --> 00:46:50.809
was funny. We did a talk here at the gallery

00:46:50.809 --> 00:46:52.789
two nights ago with Terry Allen and Jim Shaw,

00:46:53.030 --> 00:46:54.670
and I mentioned the drinking part and some of

00:46:54.670 --> 00:46:56.090
the stories because there were a couple of photographs

00:46:56.090 --> 00:46:58.010
that I showed in the slideshow that the negatives

00:46:58.010 --> 00:46:59.489
were lost. So it was like, how did you lose these

00:46:59.489 --> 00:47:00.909
negatives? I was like, I'm learning this whole

00:47:00.909 --> 00:47:04.750
thing. Yeah. But it reminded me after she pointed

00:47:04.750 --> 00:47:06.550
it out at the top there, I never told the room

00:47:06.550 --> 00:47:08.929
that I was sober, which is funny. But I think

00:47:08.929 --> 00:47:10.369
they all know me, so I think everybody knows.

00:47:10.690 --> 00:47:12.909
Yeah. So it has come up a couple of times. It

00:47:12.909 --> 00:47:15.480
is a big part of my story. And I do know that

00:47:15.480 --> 00:47:17.179
the two books wouldn't have happened. And then

00:47:17.179 --> 00:47:19.000
the India Project, I'm working on that book,

00:47:19.119 --> 00:47:21.500
which is hopefully the third book. That one definitely

00:47:21.500 --> 00:47:23.559
wouldn't have happened. What kind of brought

00:47:23.559 --> 00:47:25.559
you back? So none of it would have happened.

00:47:25.719 --> 00:47:29.199
What was the inspiration to bringing you back

00:47:29.199 --> 00:47:32.340
to India? Was it because of your earlier experiences

00:47:32.340 --> 00:47:35.599
there? Yeah, like it was just like I've been

00:47:35.599 --> 00:47:38.099
obsessed with it since I first went. Beth and

00:47:38.099 --> 00:47:40.639
I met because of India. She bought the first

00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:42.960
print that I made after I came back. It inspired

00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:45.960
her to go to India, and then we met, like, the

00:47:45.960 --> 00:47:48.519
day before she left to go on that trip, because

00:47:48.519 --> 00:47:51.420
of this photograph. Cool. So India's been a big

00:47:51.420 --> 00:47:53.639
part of my story and my life, and I'm obsessed

00:47:53.639 --> 00:47:56.920
on the images, but, like, five... Now it's been

00:47:56.920 --> 00:47:59.380
two years since I had gone back, so it's been

00:47:59.380 --> 00:48:01.219
27 years since that first trip, but, like, on

00:48:01.219 --> 00:48:03.139
the 20th anniversary, I started going back through

00:48:03.139 --> 00:48:07.280
the negatives for the first time, and I've said

00:48:07.280 --> 00:48:08.440
now I know what it means when I've been told,

00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:10.820
like, remaster a record. Yeah, yeah. I feel it

00:48:10.820 --> 00:48:14.050
now. Paul Harris, you have skills that your younger

00:48:14.050 --> 00:48:17.710
self didn't have. I've even gone back and remastered

00:48:17.710 --> 00:48:20.329
a couple of early episodes. Yeah, yeah. So I

00:48:20.329 --> 00:48:22.449
did an exhibition of the India work on the 20th

00:48:22.449 --> 00:48:24.309
anniversary of that trip, and the work had never

00:48:24.309 --> 00:48:27.050
looked as good. And negatives that had never

00:48:27.050 --> 00:48:28.769
been printable all of a sudden looked fantastic.

00:48:29.449 --> 00:48:32.530
And the story was shown complete for the first

00:48:32.530 --> 00:48:35.469
time of what I had done, specifically Varanasi,

00:48:35.550 --> 00:48:37.469
India, or Benares, however you want to call it.

00:48:38.199 --> 00:48:40.539
It was at that show, which was in Africa, where

00:48:40.539 --> 00:48:44.239
I showed that India work, and a young person

00:48:44.239 --> 00:48:46.760
came in and wanted to go back. I just dreamed

00:48:46.760 --> 00:48:48.559
of going back, but I never would have thought

00:48:48.559 --> 00:48:51.119
I would be able to, just because of family and

00:48:51.119 --> 00:48:56.000
our busy life and our bills and having to get

00:48:56.000 --> 00:48:58.539
away again. You don't get to be 28 and run off

00:48:58.539 --> 00:48:59.880
to the other side of the planet for four months

00:48:59.880 --> 00:49:04.780
at 55. But on that show on the 20th anniversary

00:49:04.780 --> 00:49:08.460
show, I just... Screw that sentence up. How do

00:49:08.460 --> 00:49:11.000
you say that? The 20th anniversary show at Africa.

00:49:11.280 --> 00:49:14.539
Yeah. A young guy from Varanasi came into the

00:49:14.539 --> 00:49:17.179
gallery with his girlfriend, and they spent about

00:49:17.179 --> 00:49:19.860
an hour walking down this really long wall looking

00:49:19.860 --> 00:49:21.880
at all the photographs of this ancient city.

00:49:22.139 --> 00:49:25.139
And when he gets to the back, I introduce myself,

00:49:25.420 --> 00:49:29.000
and he tells me he's from Varanasi. He's the

00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:31.760
same age as the kids in the photographs, that

00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:33.739
he had worn that uniform to school. He had that

00:49:33.739 --> 00:49:38.500
same haircut. Did you, have you been back? And

00:49:38.500 --> 00:49:41.960
I was like, I would love to go back. And he goes,

00:49:42.059 --> 00:49:44.119
if you go back, the very first person you meet

00:49:44.119 --> 00:49:45.500
is going to take you by the hand and take you

00:49:45.500 --> 00:49:48.000
to all their houses. And he'd say, it's like

00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:49.619
looking at pictures of my childhood that there

00:49:49.619 --> 00:49:51.599
are no photographs of my childhood. So I knew

00:49:51.599 --> 00:49:54.440
right then, this was now seven years ago, I knew

00:49:54.440 --> 00:49:56.619
right then that I had to go back. I was like,

00:49:56.659 --> 00:49:58.579
I've got to go back. And it became a massive

00:49:58.579 --> 00:50:01.659
obsession. But there was no window. My kids were

00:50:01.659 --> 00:50:04.239
in middle school and early high school. But I

00:50:04.239 --> 00:50:06.900
remember, At some point at that time period,

00:50:07.019 --> 00:50:08.679
I looked at the calendar and I was like, okay,

00:50:08.719 --> 00:50:11.780
25th anniversary. And I did the math and I looked

00:50:11.780 --> 00:50:13.659
and I was like, Frances will have graduated high

00:50:13.659 --> 00:50:16.460
school. She'll be in college. Josie will be driving.

00:50:17.079 --> 00:50:20.760
There might be help. And oh, and this year is

00:50:20.760 --> 00:50:23.960
our 25th wedding anniversary. And last year was

00:50:23.960 --> 00:50:26.199
our 25th dating anniversary. So two years ago,

00:50:26.219 --> 00:50:29.699
it was just our 22nd, 23rd anniversaries. So

00:50:29.699 --> 00:50:32.059
like, it's not a big anniversary. The kids were

00:50:32.059 --> 00:50:35.039
like, that's almost two years now. And I was

00:50:35.039 --> 00:50:37.619
like, there's a window. November is the 25th

00:50:37.619 --> 00:50:41.559
anniversary of this trip. And I joked about it

00:50:41.559 --> 00:50:43.500
with Beth, and I was like, I got to go, I got

00:50:43.500 --> 00:50:45.099
to go, I got to go. And she's like, you can't

00:50:45.099 --> 00:50:47.300
go to India. What are you thinking? How are you

00:50:47.300 --> 00:50:50.599
going to pull that off? And then one day, earlier

00:50:50.599 --> 00:50:56.039
that year, the second trip, I looked up. I was

00:50:56.039 --> 00:50:58.119
looking at plane tickets, and I was like, hey,

00:50:58.139 --> 00:51:00.940
Beth, my SkyMiles, I can get a ticket for $160

00:51:00.940 --> 00:51:04.699
to India right now. Okay, just do it. Just do

00:51:04.699 --> 00:51:07.360
it. And I bought it right then. I was like, all

00:51:07.360 --> 00:51:09.860
right, I'm going. Don't tell me twice. Yeah.

00:51:10.420 --> 00:51:12.840
The funny part, I was supposed to go for 10 days,

00:51:12.860 --> 00:51:15.480
and then we were on a walk for a night, and I

00:51:15.480 --> 00:51:18.900
was like, I'm going to be there. Why don't you

00:51:18.900 --> 00:51:22.119
go, if you want, you can stay two weeks. i don't

00:51:22.119 --> 00:51:23.900
know how long she said and then we get back to

00:51:23.900 --> 00:51:25.719
the house and she goes back to the bedroom and

00:51:25.719 --> 00:51:28.280
i go back out in the backyard and call delta

00:51:28.280 --> 00:51:31.659
and i'm out there for 45 minutes coming she's

00:51:31.659 --> 00:51:33.860
like i just extended the trip it's there in three

00:51:33.860 --> 00:51:40.500
weeks yeah and then when i yeah but yeah she

00:51:40.500 --> 00:51:42.599
really loved the fact that once i was there i

00:51:42.599 --> 00:51:45.019
called instead of staying another week so i spent

00:51:45.019 --> 00:51:47.119
a month on that second trip there's the train

00:51:47.119 --> 00:51:49.579
yeah yeah people can't hear it there's the train

00:51:49.579 --> 00:51:52.579
built probably I can add a little bit of audio

00:51:52.579 --> 00:51:58.039
from the room mic if I need to. Yeah, it came

00:51:58.039 --> 00:52:02.420
by when I was talking to Francis, too. I think

00:52:02.420 --> 00:52:04.699
the one that came by when I was talking to Francis

00:52:04.699 --> 00:52:09.099
was going the other direction. Maybe it's the

00:52:09.099 --> 00:52:11.420
same one, it's just coming back. It's fine, it's

00:52:11.420 --> 00:52:17.699
just circling. I made it back to Varanasi, India

00:52:17.699 --> 00:52:20.159
on the 25th. They had literally the 24th anniversary

00:52:20.159 --> 00:52:22.599
of the first trip, like on the same day, five

00:52:22.599 --> 00:52:26.820
years later. And the first trip, it took me months

00:52:26.820 --> 00:52:28.320
to travel through India and I got to this ancient

00:52:28.320 --> 00:52:32.539
city. And then on this last trip, I flew to Mumbai

00:52:32.539 --> 00:52:35.579
and then two days later, flew to Varanasi. And

00:52:35.579 --> 00:52:40.530
I did really get acclimated to India. And it

00:52:40.530 --> 00:52:43.309
wasn't as crazy the first time because, A, I

00:52:43.309 --> 00:52:45.230
had cell phones. I'm texting Paul and my family

00:52:45.230 --> 00:52:47.929
and friends while I'm there. I'm watching my

00:52:47.929 --> 00:52:51.210
taxi on Google Maps. Yeah, and it's a different

00:52:51.210 --> 00:52:53.570
experience than it was the first time. But anyway,

00:52:53.670 --> 00:52:56.489
so I fly into Varanasi, which is like literally

00:52:56.489 --> 00:53:00.110
the whole city on the earth. And I go down to

00:53:00.110 --> 00:53:03.789
the Ganges River. I checked in my hotel, walked

00:53:03.789 --> 00:53:06.570
down to the river, just take a peek. And I go

00:53:06.570 --> 00:53:33.219
over to the burning god. And I'm super... Like,

00:53:33.219 --> 00:53:35.840
reluctant to just, I'm not going to go up. And

00:53:35.840 --> 00:53:37.940
then a piece of distance. I'm just going to take

00:53:37.940 --> 00:53:39.860
a peek at this place. And it was a big deal 25

00:53:39.860 --> 00:53:42.219
years ago to see it. And I wrote about it then.

00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:45.619
And I had a description in a photograph that

00:53:45.619 --> 00:53:47.199
I didn't make the first trip. That's something

00:53:47.199 --> 00:53:49.960
I saw. And I wish I could have photographed fireworks

00:53:49.960 --> 00:53:51.840
going off of it. And it was burning gardens.

00:53:52.199 --> 00:53:56.760
And fireworks exploding on Diwali in the New

00:53:56.760 --> 00:53:59.800
Year. It was the first time I'd seen it in 1998.

00:54:00.039 --> 00:54:02.750
So I'm going back for it. through Wally or to

00:54:02.750 --> 00:54:05.670
Wally, to be there 24 hours later for this holiday.

00:54:06.510 --> 00:54:08.849
And I walk down to just take a peek at it, and

00:54:08.849 --> 00:54:10.690
this guy comes up, and he wants to be my tour

00:54:10.690 --> 00:54:13.829
guide, and he just starts hustling me, like pulling

00:54:13.829 --> 00:54:15.449
me in, and he's like, can you follow me on your

00:54:15.449 --> 00:54:17.289
tour? And I'm like, dude, I just got here. I've

00:54:17.289 --> 00:54:19.650
been literally in India for 48 hours, and I've

00:54:19.650 --> 00:54:23.650
been in the city for 30 minutes. And it's sunsetting,

00:54:23.650 --> 00:54:25.269
it's getting dark, and he just keeps pulling

00:54:25.269 --> 00:54:28.989
me in, and I'm like super reluctant to go walking

00:54:28.989 --> 00:54:31.230
through all these funeral pyres. And next thing

00:54:31.230 --> 00:54:32.829
you know, with him, we're just walking right

00:54:32.829 --> 00:54:34.409
through the middle of it, and he shows me all

00:54:34.409 --> 00:54:35.769
the stuff that they were showing the tourists.

00:54:35.929 --> 00:54:37.869
And next thing you know, we're up on the top

00:54:37.869 --> 00:54:40.269
where there's fire burning behind us, and we're

00:54:40.269 --> 00:54:42.750
looking up off this balcony over all the fires

00:54:42.750 --> 00:54:45.550
and the river and looking down the Ganges and

00:54:45.550 --> 00:54:48.130
the whole stretch of the city. And he's just

00:54:48.130 --> 00:54:52.309
really hustling me as a tour guide. He's starting

00:54:52.309 --> 00:54:54.030
to tell me that I can take pictures if I want

00:54:54.030 --> 00:54:56.469
to, but I know he's going to tell me I have to

00:54:56.469 --> 00:54:58.409
pay if I do it. I'm like, man, I just got here.

00:54:58.909 --> 00:55:01.929
He's really pushing me hard. He's just really

00:55:01.929 --> 00:55:04.269
working me. And I'm like, man, I just got here.

00:55:05.289 --> 00:55:07.590
I've been here before. And he's like, oh. And

00:55:07.590 --> 00:55:09.269
I started telling him the story, and I told him

00:55:09.269 --> 00:55:10.969
about how my wife bought this photograph from

00:55:10.969 --> 00:55:15.050
the city. And that's how we met, and blah, blah,

00:55:15.150 --> 00:55:17.269
blah. And I'm telling him this whole thing. And

00:55:17.269 --> 00:55:18.929
I pulled my phone out, and I started to show

00:55:18.929 --> 00:55:21.369
him the photographs. And he just pissed. His

00:55:21.369 --> 00:55:25.489
face changed 100%. He went from trying to hustle

00:55:25.489 --> 00:55:29.409
me to, how can I help you? And he sees the photograph,

00:55:29.610 --> 00:55:32.429
and he recognizes the city. He can see. And then

00:55:32.429 --> 00:55:34.909
I go to the next one. He goes, I went to school

00:55:34.909 --> 00:55:37.750
with her. And he's just frozen. He goes, I know

00:55:37.750 --> 00:55:40.730
her. And then he goes to the next one, and it's

00:55:40.730 --> 00:55:43.449
a photograph of a man holding a baby. And he's,

00:55:43.510 --> 00:55:47.469
that's him. The baby is a man who's delivering

00:55:47.469 --> 00:55:49.889
firewood. His job is to carry firewood into the

00:55:49.889 --> 00:55:52.460
burning house. And then he's like, that's Vicky.

00:55:52.639 --> 00:55:54.820
And Vicky was the only name I knew from the first

00:55:54.820 --> 00:55:56.539
trip. And he was a 14 -year -old kid in that

00:55:56.539 --> 00:55:59.280
first trip. And now he's 40. And he goes, that's

00:55:59.280 --> 00:56:01.400
Vicky. And I'm like, okay, you're legit. That

00:56:01.400 --> 00:56:03.960
is Vicky. I remember his name. And he's like,

00:56:03.980 --> 00:56:05.900
that's Ramesh. The store's right there. I'm like,

00:56:05.940 --> 00:56:07.599
I know. It's got to be right around the corner.

00:56:07.739 --> 00:56:08.980
He's like, is it still there? He goes, yeah,

00:56:08.980 --> 00:56:11.760
it's still there. So, you know, it became this.

00:56:12.039 --> 00:56:14.519
Right then my phone rings. This is how different

00:56:14.519 --> 00:56:18.360
it is. I'm like in the ancient world. She calls

00:56:18.360 --> 00:56:20.530
and I answer and I just. She's like, how's it

00:56:20.530 --> 00:56:22.329
going? I just broke into tears. I'm just like,

00:56:22.389 --> 00:56:25.050
holy shit, like everything I was hoping was happening.

00:56:25.869 --> 00:56:30.610
And the next morning, he met me back there. It's

00:56:30.610 --> 00:56:32.510
a longer story, but he met me back there. And

00:56:32.510 --> 00:56:34.789
the whole crowd of people followed me to the

00:56:34.789 --> 00:56:36.409
store to meet Ramesh. And the whole neighborhood

00:56:36.409 --> 00:56:39.230
gathered around. I had brought all these 8x10

00:56:39.230 --> 00:56:42.210
prints with me, black and white prints from the

00:56:42.210 --> 00:56:45.269
early days. And there was one photograph of these

00:56:45.269 --> 00:56:47.230
three shop owners, and one of them was Ramesh.

00:56:47.960 --> 00:56:50.159
And it was a picture that had never been printed.

00:56:50.800 --> 00:56:52.559
And it was not a picture I thought it was important.

00:56:53.139 --> 00:56:55.519
And about a week before the trip, my buddy Charlie

00:56:55.519 --> 00:56:58.300
Friedlander, who's a great photography collector,

00:56:58.579 --> 00:57:00.980
and he was looking, he was like, he was making

00:57:00.980 --> 00:57:02.699
me open up everything. He was so interested in

00:57:02.699 --> 00:57:04.920
this. And we opened up his hard drive, and I

00:57:04.920 --> 00:57:06.119
seen that picture. I was like, I should print

00:57:06.119 --> 00:57:08.659
that one. And that ended up being the picture

00:57:08.659 --> 00:57:12.380
of these three guys that were met. And he's just,

00:57:12.460 --> 00:57:14.460
oh my God. The whole neighborhood was gathering

00:57:14.460 --> 00:57:16.400
around looking at these photographs. And they're

00:57:16.400 --> 00:57:18.619
just like. I got to the point where everywhere

00:57:18.619 --> 00:57:20.579
I went, people were like, I know who you are.

00:57:20.820 --> 00:57:24.340
So I just got invited in on the deepest level.

00:57:24.539 --> 00:57:27.659
I would spend my nights for three weeks, almost

00:57:27.659 --> 00:57:30.300
a month, every night just sitting at the burning

00:57:30.300 --> 00:57:33.099
gut watching funeral pyres with the locals and

00:57:33.099 --> 00:57:35.480
the kids and the older people. Everybody wanted

00:57:35.480 --> 00:57:38.619
me to hang out with them and take pictures. I

00:57:38.619 --> 00:57:41.500
got invited in. Can you tell me the story of

00:57:41.500 --> 00:57:44.800
what first took you to that city? 27 years ago.

00:57:44.900 --> 00:57:46.820
That's a good story, too. Like, it's just fucking,

00:57:46.900 --> 00:57:50.139
that all, the craziest, this is the Earth. It's

00:57:50.139 --> 00:57:53.820
nuts. Like, time and space. So I was in India,

00:57:53.960 --> 00:57:56.760
and I had been traveling for three and a half

00:57:56.760 --> 00:57:59.659
months through India at that point. But maybe

00:57:59.659 --> 00:58:01.639
a little earlier than that, I was up in the Himalayas,

00:58:01.639 --> 00:58:05.340
and we had gone to see this musician, the sitar

00:58:05.340 --> 00:58:07.300
player, and had not seen live sitar music in

00:58:07.300 --> 00:58:10.230
India yet. We see this poster, and it's going

00:58:10.230 --> 00:58:11.909
to be a concert. So a bunch of us went up the

00:58:11.909 --> 00:58:14.769
mountain, and we were up in Dharamsala, where

00:58:14.769 --> 00:58:17.849
Dalai Lama lives. So we head up into this smaller

00:58:17.849 --> 00:58:19.449
little community, and we see this sitar concert.

00:58:20.190 --> 00:58:23.030
And it sold out. We can't get in. And we're like,

00:58:23.110 --> 00:58:25.449
ah, we're looking through the window. And I have

00:58:25.449 --> 00:58:27.289
one photograph where I pushed the camera up against

00:58:27.289 --> 00:58:29.329
the glass and snapped, and you can see the sitar

00:58:29.329 --> 00:58:31.630
flair. And we were just so disappointed that

00:58:31.630 --> 00:58:33.789
we didn't get in for this concert. And then about

00:58:33.789 --> 00:58:36.880
a week later, I spent a month in the Himalayas

00:58:36.880 --> 00:58:39.159
on that trip. So about a week later, I get an

00:58:39.159 --> 00:58:41.800
invitation from this person I met, and she's

00:58:41.800 --> 00:58:44.320
like, do you want to come share this room at

00:58:44.320 --> 00:58:48.099
this ashram on that? And I'm like, cool. And

00:58:48.099 --> 00:58:50.960
I go up, and it turns out it's the tablet player's

00:58:50.960 --> 00:58:52.659
house, and the sitar player's staying there.

00:58:52.860 --> 00:58:58.079
And they fucking jam every night in the living

00:58:58.079 --> 00:59:01.309
room. five of us sometimes three of us sometimes

00:59:01.309 --> 00:59:05.929
just me raul this uruguayan ex -hat and myself

00:59:05.929 --> 00:59:08.650
and these two guys would just jam for hours it

00:59:08.650 --> 00:59:12.630
was the most amazing experience and i had long

00:59:12.630 --> 00:59:15.429
conversations with them about all of it and everything

00:59:15.429 --> 00:59:17.630
life and all of it but ajit was from benares

00:59:17.630 --> 00:59:20.769
varanasi it's also known as kashi so the oldest

00:59:20.769 --> 00:59:23.650
name is kashi the british i think called it benares

00:59:23.650 --> 00:59:25.510
and now it's known as varanasi but to me the

00:59:25.510 --> 00:59:27.550
city's been ours like when i see it i still like

00:59:27.550 --> 00:59:31.639
benares So anyway, Ajit was from Benares. And

00:59:31.639 --> 00:59:34.619
at that point, I was about to head south to Kerala,

00:59:34.659 --> 00:59:36.739
which is really beautiful. And there's backwaters.

00:59:36.800 --> 00:59:40.619
And it's really chilled out part of India. And

00:59:40.619 --> 00:59:42.940
no trip to India would be complete without going

00:59:42.940 --> 00:59:45.539
to Benares. He said Benares. That's probably

00:59:45.539 --> 00:59:48.940
where he walked in. And he said, that's where

00:59:48.940 --> 00:59:50.699
I grew up. You've got to go to Benares. A few

00:59:50.699 --> 00:59:53.780
days later, a week or two later, a few weeks

00:59:53.780 --> 00:59:56.860
later, I ended up back in Delhi. And I had met

00:59:56.860 --> 00:59:59.480
him. this actress at the beginning of my trip,

00:59:59.699 --> 01:00:02.539
this kind of legendary Indian actress. That's

01:00:02.539 --> 01:00:05.679
a whole other long story. But I met some really

01:00:05.679 --> 01:00:08.280
amazing people in India. I met an actor who's

01:00:08.280 --> 01:00:10.940
beloved, and through him I met this actress who's

01:00:10.940 --> 01:00:14.079
Indian Meryl Streep. She's a photographer and

01:00:14.079 --> 01:00:16.320
both of them got their start in Satyajit Ray

01:00:16.320 --> 01:00:20.159
films, who made Path of Penchale, one of my favorite

01:00:20.159 --> 01:00:22.579
Indian films. So I met these two people in the

01:00:22.579 --> 01:00:25.510
first week, and then... Deepti novel, the actress

01:00:25.510 --> 01:00:27.510
told me that when I got to Delhi, she does call

01:00:27.510 --> 01:00:31.050
Raghu Rai. And Raghu Rai is like India's one

01:00:31.050 --> 01:00:33.409
of their two legendary photographers. He's the

01:00:33.409 --> 01:00:36.710
only one who's still living. But I knew his work.

01:00:36.769 --> 01:00:38.309
I looked at every one of his books before I came

01:00:38.309 --> 01:00:40.369
to India. So when we get to Delhi, I get invited

01:00:40.369 --> 01:00:43.269
to go to his house. Fucking crazy. Like, how

01:00:43.269 --> 01:00:45.969
does that happen? So I go to this man's house,

01:00:46.010 --> 01:00:48.489
and he doesn't know why I'm there. And he's like,

01:00:48.550 --> 01:00:50.730
who are you? And I'm like, I'm Deepti's friend.

01:00:50.909 --> 01:00:52.650
And he's like, okay. And he's like, come on in.

01:00:53.210 --> 01:00:55.750
I'll be back. And his servant comes up and he

01:00:55.750 --> 01:00:57.489
asks me for my breakfast. Or he asks me for my

01:00:57.489 --> 01:00:59.989
breakfast. He tells his servant. He's got a little

01:00:59.989 --> 01:01:02.389
housekeeper, butler kind of guy. So this guy

01:01:02.389 --> 01:01:03.949
goes and makes me breakfast. And right away,

01:01:04.070 --> 01:01:06.789
the photographer disappears. This guy brings

01:01:06.789 --> 01:01:08.710
me a tray, just a delicious breakfast. I sit

01:01:08.710 --> 01:01:11.110
by myself in this gorgeous room, this fucking

01:01:11.110 --> 01:01:14.550
beautiful house. And I eat this tasty breakfast.

01:01:14.690 --> 01:01:16.510
And then after I'm finished, the photographer

01:01:16.510 --> 01:01:19.429
shows up. And he goes, so what are you doing

01:01:19.429 --> 01:01:22.480
here? Not in my house, but in India. Yeah, yeah.

01:01:22.739 --> 01:01:25.139
And he pulled out his photography books, and

01:01:25.139 --> 01:01:28.000
he showed me his photo books, and they were all,

01:01:28.099 --> 01:01:30.460
I didn't like the work. It wasn't his work. He

01:01:30.460 --> 01:01:32.300
was showing me his random photo books, and he

01:01:32.300 --> 01:01:33.059
was like, what are you thinking? I was like,

01:01:33.159 --> 01:01:35.059
I don't like his work. And he goes, these are

01:01:35.059 --> 01:01:36.539
all photographers that came here and exploited

01:01:36.539 --> 01:01:39.400
my people. What are you doing? And like, real

01:01:39.400 --> 01:01:41.519
serious. What are you doing? What's your mission

01:01:41.519 --> 01:01:44.219
here? What's your goal in India? And I told him

01:01:44.219 --> 01:01:47.440
that I had been, I was looking to see who I would

01:01:47.440 --> 01:01:49.019
be if I'd been born and raised in the other side

01:01:49.019 --> 01:01:52.170
of the planet. And I wasn't at temples photographing

01:01:52.170 --> 01:01:54.369
people praying. I was looking for people on the

01:01:54.369 --> 01:01:58.010
streets living a normal life. I was looking to

01:01:58.010 --> 01:02:00.750
really ask the answer. Who would I be if I didn't

01:02:00.750 --> 01:02:02.329
want to be on this other planet? But I wasn't

01:02:02.329 --> 01:02:05.050
stalking Sadhus, and I wasn't stalking religious

01:02:05.050 --> 01:02:10.550
people. And I wasn't. And I told him that I...

01:02:10.550 --> 01:02:13.449
Then he changed, and I guess he let me answer.

01:02:13.610 --> 01:02:16.989
And then he pulled out a bunch of his prints

01:02:16.989 --> 01:02:19.289
and let me pick out a print of his that he was...

01:02:19.699 --> 01:02:22.219
again that would give away to something and he

01:02:22.219 --> 01:02:23.699
was asking my opinion on some of his parents

01:02:23.699 --> 01:02:27.440
which i thought was really cool um yeah i told

01:02:27.440 --> 01:02:29.619
him that i was about to switch the guy i was

01:02:29.619 --> 01:02:30.980
about to switch the color film i've gone through

01:02:30.980 --> 01:02:33.119
100 rolls of black and white triax film that

01:02:33.119 --> 01:02:35.199
i brought with me and i couldn't find trance

01:02:35.199 --> 01:02:38.119
in india and all i could find was this like kind

01:02:38.119 --> 01:02:39.940
of cheap codec black and white film and it was

01:02:39.940 --> 01:02:42.360
garbage and i was going to switch the color because

01:02:42.360 --> 01:02:45.079
you keep doing what you're doing and he literally

01:02:45.369 --> 01:02:47.869
Made a phone call, put me in a taxi, and then

01:02:47.869 --> 01:02:49.929
sent me to his camera store, and they had a block

01:02:49.929 --> 01:02:51.989
of, like, 20 rolls of triax waiting for me when

01:02:51.989 --> 01:02:55.829
I got there. And I paid for it, but he, so he,

01:02:55.909 --> 01:02:57.630
I felt like I had gotten a blessing from the

01:02:57.630 --> 01:03:00.489
master. The next morning, I got on a plane and

01:03:00.489 --> 01:03:04.309
flew to Benares on Ajit's recommendation. I get

01:03:04.309 --> 01:03:06.369
to Benares, which is one of the most photographed

01:03:06.369 --> 01:03:07.949
cities in India. I haven't seen countless photographs

01:03:07.949 --> 01:03:10.170
of it. All the photographs are basically from

01:03:10.170 --> 01:03:12.210
a boat of people praying on the river in the

01:03:12.210 --> 01:03:15.320
sunrise. sun washing across them, pouring water,

01:03:15.480 --> 01:03:18.420
doing blessings. Almost every photograph is that

01:03:18.420 --> 01:03:21.639
scene. And I get to Benares and all of a sudden

01:03:21.639 --> 01:03:25.480
I'm like speechless. First time in India where

01:03:25.480 --> 01:03:28.480
I'm like, oh, this is too holy. And I see these,

01:03:28.579 --> 01:03:31.179
literally I see boatloads of Western tourists,

01:03:31.380 --> 01:03:34.619
like tourists. People my current age. Like I'm

01:03:34.619 --> 01:03:38.400
a jet boat. People my current age with telephoto

01:03:38.400 --> 01:03:41.260
lenses making those photographs. And that's what

01:03:41.760 --> 01:03:44.500
The thing is, in Varanasi, is that sunrise thing.

01:03:45.360 --> 01:03:48.800
And I was like, I'm not, shoot, what do I do

01:03:48.800 --> 01:03:51.539
here? Yeah, I just told this guy that's not what

01:03:51.539 --> 01:03:54.139
I'm doing. Clearly, I don't want to do what they're

01:03:54.139 --> 01:03:55.980
doing. And then I met this other guy who was

01:03:55.980 --> 01:03:58.559
clearly like an established photographer. And

01:03:58.559 --> 01:04:01.340
we were having a conversation on the river. And

01:04:01.340 --> 01:04:04.760
he says, he's telling me about how he had befriended

01:04:04.760 --> 01:04:06.579
one of the sadhus. And the sadhus are like the

01:04:06.579 --> 01:04:09.400
holy guys. They're mostly naked, a little bit

01:04:09.400 --> 01:04:11.789
of one cloth. The Aghoris are completely naked.

01:04:12.309 --> 01:04:14.610
Dreadlocks, they're smoking the chillum, like

01:04:14.610 --> 01:04:18.670
the hashish, and they're the holiest. They're

01:04:18.670 --> 01:04:23.730
considered the spiritual devotees. They've given

01:04:23.730 --> 01:04:26.929
up everything in their life just to live, and

01:04:26.929 --> 01:04:30.730
they're taken care of by the community. So he's

01:04:30.730 --> 01:04:32.530
like, oh, I got invited to one of the sadhu camps.

01:04:33.150 --> 01:04:36.309
And I was like, oh, that seems weird, too. But

01:04:36.309 --> 01:04:39.550
also, I was a secure, young, secure photographer.

01:04:40.190 --> 01:04:42.389
even though I was killing it at the time with

01:04:42.389 --> 01:04:44.030
what I was, I think, making my best pictures

01:04:44.030 --> 01:04:46.250
of my life. I was like, oh, this guy's clearly

01:04:46.250 --> 01:04:48.349
like a pro. It's kind of like a National Geographic

01:04:48.349 --> 01:04:51.809
photographer. He was older. He clearly was like

01:04:51.809 --> 01:04:58.130
war -torn, world -old photographer. But they

01:04:58.130 --> 01:04:59.769
kept telling me in the city that everybody is

01:04:59.769 --> 01:05:02.590
considered holy. It's such a holy city that everybody

01:05:02.590 --> 01:05:06.289
that lived there is holy. And I was like, walking

01:05:06.289 --> 01:05:08.190
down the street one morning, and this little

01:05:08.190 --> 01:05:10.469
girl was turning up to me. It was the third day

01:05:10.469 --> 01:05:14.030
in the city. I remember the second or third day

01:05:14.030 --> 01:05:15.429
in the city, and this little girl was like, my

01:05:15.429 --> 01:05:17.449
name is Rahel, and I'll be your guide. And she

01:05:17.449 --> 01:05:19.670
just wanted some money, but it was her neighborhood.

01:05:19.849 --> 01:05:21.389
So I'd run into her every time I would go out.

01:05:22.010 --> 01:05:25.530
And then one morning, I'm walking down these

01:05:25.530 --> 01:05:27.670
narrow streets. There's all these beautiful winding

01:05:27.670 --> 01:05:31.750
streets. And I had not really been photographing

01:05:31.750 --> 01:05:33.409
yet. I'd been there for three days, and I hadn't

01:05:33.409 --> 01:05:36.230
taken a picture. And I was just, fuck, how do

01:05:36.230 --> 01:05:38.559
you? photograph this place it's coming to you

01:05:38.559 --> 01:05:41.579
man it's so holy like it's just the center and

01:05:41.579 --> 01:05:44.260
the mythology is it is holy it is the center

01:05:44.260 --> 01:05:46.800
of the universe after that current trip i do

01:05:46.800 --> 01:05:48.480
believe it's the center of the universe i've

01:05:48.480 --> 01:05:51.099
experienced things there that i've never experienced

01:05:51.099 --> 01:05:55.039
anywhere else there's a vibration there but i've

01:05:55.039 --> 01:05:57.420
been told like it's the holiest place everybody

01:05:57.420 --> 01:06:00.539
there is holy if you die there you're liberated

01:06:00.539 --> 01:06:03.960
from samsara you go to nirvana it's the place

01:06:03.960 --> 01:06:06.659
so i'm like what's the difference between these

01:06:06.659 --> 01:06:10.179
devotees, the sadhu, and everybody else. And

01:06:10.179 --> 01:06:11.519
I'm walking down the street corner, and this

01:06:11.519 --> 01:06:14.239
guy basically jumps out of this little window

01:06:14.239 --> 01:06:16.639
stall. He says, you want to buy a magic stick?

01:06:17.139 --> 01:06:19.739
And he looked like my buddy Hassan, who's from

01:06:19.739 --> 01:06:22.039
Morocco, but they had a similar mustache and

01:06:22.039 --> 01:06:25.599
hair. And I was like, and my buddy Kevin is a

01:06:25.599 --> 01:06:27.980
magician. And so he got my attention. People

01:06:27.980 --> 01:06:29.199
were trying to sell me hash the whole time I

01:06:29.199 --> 01:06:31.420
was in India. And I spoke a little bit of hash,

01:06:31.440 --> 01:06:35.789
especially with Ajit and those guys. smoking

01:06:35.789 --> 01:06:38.690
up there. And this guy jumps out, and I wouldn't

01:06:38.690 --> 01:06:39.929
buy it off the street from anybody. He was like,

01:06:39.989 --> 01:06:41.230
want to buy a magic stick? I was like, look at

01:06:41.230 --> 01:06:43.909
my buddy Hassan. So I sit down with him, and

01:06:43.909 --> 01:06:46.170
they have these little cookies with these little

01:06:46.170 --> 01:06:49.469
dollops in the middle, and there's this general

01:06:49.469 --> 01:06:54.170
store, chai shop, and he's got cookies, and there's

01:06:54.170 --> 01:06:56.070
a barbershop over here, and I just end up hanging

01:06:56.070 --> 01:06:59.190
out on the street corner, and every day I would

01:06:59.190 --> 01:07:02.389
come by and get a cookie. I'd just kind of walk.

01:07:02.880 --> 01:07:04.260
But I don't know at what point I started taking

01:07:04.260 --> 01:07:05.920
pictures that all of a sudden it just clicked.

01:07:06.420 --> 01:07:08.840
It was like, oh, I don't need the river. It's

01:07:08.840 --> 01:07:12.059
these people. And I spent two weeks on that street

01:07:12.059 --> 01:07:15.079
corner hanging out with the locals and the kid

01:07:15.079 --> 01:07:17.739
Vicky and I didn't know his name, but Ramesh,

01:07:17.739 --> 01:07:22.079
who is now my brother. And it's a really interesting

01:07:22.079 --> 01:07:24.119
street corner because it's where all the funeral

01:07:24.119 --> 01:07:26.559
processions lead going down to the Ganges. So

01:07:26.559 --> 01:07:28.300
it's right around the corner to the burning up.

01:07:28.800 --> 01:07:30.920
So I was just struck by the fact that there's

01:07:30.920 --> 01:07:32.579
this neighborhood where all these people are

01:07:32.579 --> 01:07:35.260
hanging out, and it's just regular life, there's

01:07:35.260 --> 01:07:37.699
stores, there's all this stuff, but every 10

01:07:37.699 --> 01:07:39.940
-15 minutes you hear this chant, around such

01:07:39.940 --> 01:07:41.920
a head, around such a head, and a group of people

01:07:41.920 --> 01:07:45.019
come by carrying a body, and the people on the

01:07:45.019 --> 01:07:47.500
street don't flinch. I'm like, wow, death is

01:07:47.500 --> 01:07:49.920
such a part of their world that they don't notice

01:07:49.920 --> 01:07:53.719
it. In my photo of Vicky, from back then is this

01:07:53.719 --> 01:07:56.059
kid with his arm around his buddy, his name is

01:07:56.059 --> 01:07:58.260
Rambabu, which I just learned two years ago,

01:07:58.340 --> 01:08:00.940
Rambabu, and they're looking at me like they're

01:08:00.940 --> 01:08:03.619
making like little gun hands and they have to

01:08:03.619 --> 01:08:05.579
stand like this, and there's a funeral walking

01:08:05.579 --> 01:08:07.559
behind them. There's always, I just love this

01:08:07.559 --> 01:08:08.960
portrait of these kids because they're just like

01:08:08.960 --> 01:08:11.300
hamming it up with a camera. There's a funeral

01:08:11.300 --> 01:08:14.340
right here. So that's what I spent two weeks

01:08:14.340 --> 01:08:16.619
photographing. I had some pictures of the river.

01:08:17.320 --> 01:08:19.979
There's boatmen. There's one of my all -time

01:08:19.979 --> 01:08:21.380
favorite photographs. Two of my all -time favorite

01:08:21.380 --> 01:08:23.399
photographs are of boatmen in boats on Ganges.

01:08:23.600 --> 01:08:25.460
I met both of those people on this last trip.

01:08:25.819 --> 01:08:28.739
That's wild. Totally wild. Yeah. I photographed

01:08:28.739 --> 01:08:32.000
one boatman in the same boat. There's this one

01:08:32.000 --> 01:08:34.079
photograph of these two boatmen. They're fishing.

01:08:34.260 --> 01:08:36.039
They're fishermen. I was one of the boatmen that

01:08:36.039 --> 01:08:37.680
now realized, oh, he's fishing in that photo.

01:08:37.779 --> 01:08:39.100
I didn't realize he was fishing. They're just

01:08:39.100 --> 01:08:42.020
fishermen. And it's this ancient temple behind

01:08:42.020 --> 01:08:44.819
them. It's not a temple, but a palace. And I

01:08:44.819 --> 01:08:48.250
found them. And we went out and we staged the

01:08:48.250 --> 01:08:50.029
photograph. Like, they were so cool. They were

01:08:50.029 --> 01:08:53.529
like, yeah, let's go out and pose. The old man,

01:08:53.609 --> 01:08:56.130
Kashi, is pulling out fishing line. He's pretending

01:08:56.130 --> 01:08:58.670
he's fishing in the new photograph. It reminds

01:08:58.670 --> 01:09:02.550
me of a little bit of a story. So my mom and

01:09:02.550 --> 01:09:05.489
my stepdad have been married for 19 years now.

01:09:05.890 --> 01:09:10.109
And they didn't meet until like 24, 25 years

01:09:10.109 --> 01:09:13.149
ago. But they both grew up down in St. Petersburg.

01:09:13.900 --> 01:09:18.140
My mom grew up playing marching band, and they're

01:09:18.140 --> 01:09:20.439
going through photos, just old photos of themselves

01:09:20.439 --> 01:09:24.399
from when they were kids. And my mom finds this

01:09:24.399 --> 01:09:27.300
photo of her in the marching band, and we're

01:09:27.300 --> 01:09:29.899
in a parade. And in the background, there's a

01:09:29.899 --> 01:09:32.439
guy, like, tying his shoe. Is he your husband?

01:09:32.640 --> 01:09:35.060
It's my stepdad. That's awesome. Yeah, and it

01:09:35.060 --> 01:09:36.840
was, like, from when they were kids. Oh, wow.

01:09:37.060 --> 01:09:42.949
And, yeah. That's great. Yeah. Let me add one

01:09:42.949 --> 01:09:46.529
little thing. I didn't finish it. That sitar

01:09:46.529 --> 01:09:49.670
player, Ajit, I found him five years ago on Facebook.

01:09:50.810 --> 01:09:53.470
He lives in Paris, or in France, southern France,

01:09:53.550 --> 01:09:55.909
with his wife. He met a French woman and eventually

01:09:55.909 --> 01:09:58.930
married and moved to France. During lockdown,

01:09:59.390 --> 01:10:02.409
I would pay to watch some of the sitar concerts

01:10:02.409 --> 01:10:06.060
online. so i and then all of a sudden became

01:10:06.060 --> 01:10:07.840
every time i posted on facebook i'd see that

01:10:07.840 --> 01:10:09.520
a jeep would like my facebook post i was like

01:10:09.520 --> 01:10:11.779
man the world is so small that is so cool and

01:10:11.779 --> 01:10:14.279
then two years ago when i started planning the

01:10:14.279 --> 01:10:18.079
india trip i told you from benares so i messaged

01:10:18.079 --> 01:10:20.359
him on facebook and said hey i'm going i'm finally

01:10:20.359 --> 01:10:22.300
going back to india i'm going to benares and

01:10:22.300 --> 01:10:26.760
he writes back i am too and i said when are you

01:10:26.760 --> 01:10:30.390
going And we arrived in the Norris Airport an

01:10:30.390 --> 01:10:33.170
hour apart from each other. He was going back

01:10:33.170 --> 01:10:34.789
for the first time in three years to see his

01:10:34.789 --> 01:10:36.729
family. That's crazy. So I got to have dinner

01:10:36.729 --> 01:10:39.489
at his house and meet his family. That's so awesome.

01:10:39.649 --> 01:10:41.529
It was so awesome. I was hoping for a Sintar

01:10:41.529 --> 01:10:43.409
concert, and they were going to perform for me,

01:10:43.430 --> 01:10:45.090
but I didn't get a fever and didn't get to go

01:10:45.090 --> 01:10:47.510
back to the third dinner. I missed out on the

01:10:47.510 --> 01:10:49.569
concert. But these guys, he and his two brothers,

01:10:49.649 --> 01:10:53.069
grew up, and their dad, their father, Contemporaries

01:10:53.069 --> 01:10:54.609
with Robert Shankar. They grew up with Robbie.

01:10:54.710 --> 01:10:56.750
They knew him growing up. He was like the master.

01:10:56.890 --> 01:11:00.470
And his dad played with him. Wow. But the coolest

01:11:00.470 --> 01:11:06.170
thing is his brother and his wife were telling

01:11:06.170 --> 01:11:08.590
me this story about how they met. And we met

01:11:08.590 --> 01:11:12.510
up in northern India at this tabla player's house,

01:11:12.850 --> 01:11:16.109
Ashoka. I was like, that's where I met Ajit.

01:11:16.550 --> 01:11:18.050
And they were like, what? I was like, that's

01:11:18.050 --> 01:11:19.590
how Ajit and I know each other, was from Ashoka's

01:11:19.590 --> 01:11:21.770
house. And that's where his brother met his wife.

01:11:22.330 --> 01:11:25.569
That's crazy. Like, how small are you? How am

01:11:25.569 --> 01:11:28.090
I going to know in the place? What a great, cool

01:11:28.090 --> 01:11:32.449
thing. That's wild. The world is really a fucking

01:11:32.449 --> 01:11:35.470
crazy place. Yeah. To have it shrink like that,

01:11:35.529 --> 01:11:40.029
man, it's so cool. Man, so you mentioned some

01:11:40.029 --> 01:11:43.350
of the subtle differences and the big differences

01:11:43.350 --> 01:11:46.250
in your experience between, and not just because

01:11:46.250 --> 01:11:50.500
you'd grown, because the technology and... yeah

01:11:50.500 --> 01:11:53.380
so you were in constant contact all these things

01:11:53.380 --> 01:11:56.159
had changed and now they're in constant contact

01:11:56.159 --> 01:11:59.380
with the now we could call them right yeah but

01:11:59.380 --> 01:12:01.619
the other thing i read maybe what struck me about

01:12:01.619 --> 01:12:04.420
that too is like how much the field of photography

01:12:04.420 --> 01:12:08.039
has changed since then too yeah can you just

01:12:08.039 --> 01:12:11.920
reflect on i don't that could be a whole hour

01:12:11.920 --> 01:12:15.359
conversation around itself but i think that for

01:12:15.359 --> 01:12:18.260
me like It's the storytelling part that's important

01:12:18.260 --> 01:12:20.180
now. There's a million photographs to be made

01:12:20.180 --> 01:12:23.140
right at the second. And about the story part,

01:12:23.380 --> 01:12:25.920
what's the point? So that's where I got really

01:12:25.920 --> 01:12:28.319
lucky. I got lucky with Potluck, that there's

01:12:28.319 --> 01:12:31.239
a story. So it's gotten a lot. People still respond

01:12:31.239 --> 01:12:33.279
to that work because there's a story. If it was

01:12:33.279 --> 01:12:36.079
just a bunch of pictures, it could be cool. Yeah,

01:12:36.079 --> 01:12:38.840
there's a story. And even Murmurch Hustle, for

01:12:38.840 --> 01:12:42.380
the people, it's a short story. There's a story

01:12:42.380 --> 01:12:45.180
around it. And with the India work and the book

01:12:45.180 --> 01:12:48.359
that I'm working on, there's a story to it. So

01:12:48.359 --> 01:12:53.479
whether the technology is not a part of it, other

01:12:53.479 --> 01:12:56.659
than the fact that 1998's black and white film,

01:12:56.840 --> 01:13:00.720
2023's color digital, but luckily for me, the

01:13:00.720 --> 01:13:03.020
technology plays into adding to the texture of

01:13:03.020 --> 01:13:05.579
the story. So even if I had shot color in 98,

01:13:05.979 --> 01:13:09.680
it wouldn't be as big of a contrast. So that's

01:13:09.680 --> 01:13:13.279
for, luckily I shot, luckily, Roger Rye gave

01:13:13.279 --> 01:13:15.359
me black and white film. Yeah. If I had switched

01:13:15.359 --> 01:13:17.659
the color. It wouldn't be as much of a contrast.

01:13:18.060 --> 01:13:20.699
And I was on it like that until right now. But

01:13:20.699 --> 01:13:22.680
luckily, he hooked me up with that film. Otherwise,

01:13:22.819 --> 01:13:25.800
the Benares work would have been colored. They

01:13:25.800 --> 01:13:28.260
would have spilled, I think, I would love to

01:13:28.260 --> 01:13:29.420
see what color would have looked like at the

01:13:29.420 --> 01:13:31.840
time. But Robbie Ryan has telepictures of Benares

01:13:31.840 --> 01:13:35.579
in 1998. Yeah. He gave me that film for a reason,

01:13:35.640 --> 01:13:39.140
right? I hope to. I saw that he was teaching

01:13:39.140 --> 01:13:40.859
a workshop there last year. I was like, oh, I

01:13:40.859 --> 01:13:42.399
want to go back and do his work. And he's 75

01:13:42.399 --> 01:13:46.600
now. But the goal, the real goal is to, get the

01:13:46.600 --> 01:13:50.539
book to the next level and happen to see it yeah

01:13:50.539 --> 01:13:53.279
maybe maybe he'll be touched by it and get a

01:13:53.279 --> 01:13:57.319
quote or something so where does this all like

01:13:57.319 --> 01:13:59.739
you're working on this next book do you have

01:13:59.739 --> 01:14:04.600
goals or do you just do what you have the tools

01:14:04.600 --> 01:14:07.319
to do in front of you in the moment but right

01:14:07.319 --> 01:14:09.300
now the goals are three or four books in mind

01:14:09.300 --> 01:14:12.279
so the goal is to get a couple things finished

01:14:12.880 --> 01:14:15.399
One of those moments was the best part of getting

01:14:15.399 --> 01:14:17.520
the second book made. It felt like now there's

01:14:17.520 --> 01:14:18.979
a second book, everybody can get to make books.

01:14:19.840 --> 01:14:22.359
The India one would be the most important one

01:14:22.359 --> 01:14:27.760
to me if I get it done. I have the goal of 40

01:14:27.760 --> 01:14:32.119
years of Athens book. 34 years. Six years from

01:14:32.119 --> 01:14:35.859
now, it would be nice to finish that and then

01:14:35.859 --> 01:14:40.979
maybe move to India or something. I have that

01:14:40.979 --> 01:14:44.840
goal. a book a project i did with my kids when

01:14:44.840 --> 01:14:46.680
they were little called menagerie that francis

01:14:46.680 --> 01:14:49.020
and josie we all collaborated on these photographs

01:14:49.020 --> 01:14:50.800
when they were little so that's a book that we

01:14:50.800 --> 01:14:52.840
want to make so the real goal is to get those

01:14:52.840 --> 01:14:55.939
books finished and then there's no real expectations

01:14:55.939 --> 01:14:59.500
or goals or dreams bigger than that okay photography

01:14:59.500 --> 01:15:04.439
for me at this point is is really what i get

01:15:04.439 --> 01:15:07.279
from it on a daily basis of doing it is the reward

01:15:07.279 --> 01:15:10.640
like i don't really yeah i don't see galleries

01:15:10.640 --> 01:15:14.329
ever really embracing me I don't really see breaking

01:15:14.329 --> 01:15:17.409
through to a bigger scene than what I do in Athens.

01:15:17.590 --> 01:15:19.409
I don't really think I'm going to get called

01:15:19.409 --> 01:15:21.949
to New York and LA to do capital A of our world

01:15:21.949 --> 01:15:25.630
stuff. I don't really, and I don't care. The

01:15:25.630 --> 01:15:28.810
real joy of what I do is what I get to do when

01:15:28.810 --> 01:15:30.210
the camera comes out and I get to photograph

01:15:30.210 --> 01:15:33.529
people. It's fucking amazing that I get to do

01:15:33.529 --> 01:15:35.210
what I do and get the connections I get with

01:15:35.210 --> 01:15:38.470
people. So that's the real goal is to keep that

01:15:38.470 --> 01:15:41.090
going. So I guess the real goal is to keep the

01:15:41.090 --> 01:15:43.789
bottom in shape so I can keep doing that. Man,

01:15:43.850 --> 01:15:46.670
you say that. I feel the exact same way about

01:15:46.670 --> 01:15:50.329
this podcast and sitting down with all these

01:15:50.329 --> 01:15:53.189
amazing people. Yeah, it's the verbal version

01:15:53.189 --> 01:15:56.989
of what I've been describing. Yeah. It's actually

01:15:56.989 --> 01:15:58.989
really validating to sit here and talk to you

01:15:58.989 --> 01:16:02.989
about it all. I feel the same way. You're definitely

01:16:02.989 --> 01:16:04.890
a kindred spirit, man. I feel like we could talk

01:16:04.890 --> 01:16:08.439
all day, but I feel like... People are going

01:16:08.439 --> 01:16:11.420
to get bored. So I'm going to let you go here.

01:16:11.460 --> 01:16:15.000
Is there anything you want to plug? Anything

01:16:15.000 --> 01:16:17.359
you want to mention? Anything that you've got

01:16:17.359 --> 01:16:19.899
coming up that people can pay attention to? I

01:16:19.899 --> 01:16:22.960
know you found some copies of a book. I don't

01:16:22.960 --> 01:16:24.920
know if they're all gone already. Yeah, we did.

01:16:24.960 --> 01:16:28.359
We did our unearthed 50 copies of Athens Potluck.

01:16:28.539 --> 01:16:30.619
I think we're down to 45 copies now of Athens

01:16:30.619 --> 01:16:33.119
Potluck. So those are available at deedspublishing

01:16:33.119 --> 01:16:35.560
.com. It's your name. And it will be the last

01:16:35.560 --> 01:16:38.329
50, and then it's out of print. As far as plugging

01:16:38.329 --> 01:16:40.710
stuff, I just finished two and a half years of

01:16:40.710 --> 01:16:42.770
massive effort, and I've done them as of two

01:16:42.770 --> 01:16:45.489
days ago. So there's nothing new coming out.

01:16:46.350 --> 01:16:48.970
The last two and a half years have been fucking

01:16:48.970 --> 01:16:53.270
nuts of activities and shows and books. The gallery's

01:16:53.270 --> 01:16:56.170
taking a hiatus. I'm taking a big break to just

01:16:56.170 --> 01:16:58.409
focus on making new pictures and trying to get

01:16:58.409 --> 01:17:01.710
that book done. But yeah, that's literally it.

01:17:02.240 --> 01:17:03.859
This is the last thing on the calendar, right?

01:17:04.159 --> 01:17:07.220
I'm glad that you get to have some time to breathe

01:17:07.220 --> 01:17:10.460
because it sounds like you need it. Yeah, it

01:17:10.460 --> 01:17:14.000
looks like it too, probably. You look great,

01:17:14.079 --> 01:17:17.359
man. It's been nuts. Last year was the busiest

01:17:17.359 --> 01:17:19.600
year of my life, and we thought this year I was

01:17:19.600 --> 01:17:21.300
going to take off, and then we had four exhibitions

01:17:21.300 --> 01:17:22.939
in the gallery, including my better princess,

01:17:23.220 --> 01:17:25.359
and then I ended up doing two talks in the last

01:17:25.359 --> 01:17:28.420
month, and it's hot. We're done. I need a break.

01:17:29.079 --> 01:17:31.619
Thanks for being here, Jason. Thanks for having

01:17:31.619 --> 01:17:34.300
me. I'll have links to where people can buy your

01:17:34.300 --> 01:17:38.319
book and prints and all the things. Yeah, I'm

01:17:38.319 --> 01:17:40.100
going to say check out, follow my Instagram and

01:17:40.100 --> 01:17:42.960
see what I'm working on. What would you say to

01:17:42.960 --> 01:17:46.899
somebody out there that wants to do photography

01:17:46.899 --> 01:17:52.039
but feels it's so flooded? I think the story

01:17:52.039 --> 01:17:54.380
aspect that you were talking about earlier is

01:17:54.380 --> 01:17:55.880
really important, but is there anything else

01:17:55.880 --> 01:17:58.380
that you'd say to a young photographer or aspiring

01:17:58.380 --> 01:18:00.539
photographer? Yeah, figure out how to tell the

01:18:00.539 --> 01:18:02.880
story. Find something personal. Make it personal.

01:18:02.960 --> 01:18:06.279
Tell a story. Connect with people. As far as,

01:18:06.319 --> 01:18:08.380
like, making a living doing it. I mean, that's

01:18:08.380 --> 01:18:09.760
how any of that's going to go for any of us in

01:18:09.760 --> 01:18:11.760
any field over the next five to ten years. Yeah.

01:18:12.359 --> 01:18:16.520
It was. It was brave new world territory. I might

01:18:16.520 --> 01:18:18.500
be documenting the end of the world right here.

01:18:18.560 --> 01:18:46.560
Yeah. I hope you enjoyed my talk with Jason.

01:18:47.920 --> 01:18:52.920
Man, I think that was something really I was

01:18:52.920 --> 01:18:55.359
lucky to be part of. I really appreciated him

01:18:55.359 --> 01:18:57.640
opening up to me. I haven't gotten the chance

01:18:57.640 --> 01:19:00.550
to catch up with Francis yet, but... I'll be

01:19:00.550 --> 01:19:04.289
at Flickr Bar on Tuesday, the 18th. And I think

01:19:04.289 --> 01:19:06.350
we're going to catch up then. I hope all y 'all

01:19:06.350 --> 01:19:09.930
come out in the Athens area. Come see some stand

01:19:09.930 --> 01:19:12.029
-up comedy. I'll be there with Lanny Farmer.

01:19:12.750 --> 01:19:14.310
Thanks for listening, y 'all. Hit that subscribe

01:19:14.310 --> 01:19:14.750
button.