Welcome to Overeducated and Underemployed. We
got a great episode this week. Just a quick reminder,
I'll be at Flickr Bar next week on Tuesday the
18th. And I'll be at Bird's on Wednesday the
19th in Tallahassee. So come see some stand -up.
Hit that subscribe button. A lot more of y 'all
are listening than are subscribed. I appreciate
that, but we got a lot of great episodes coming
your way. This week is no exception. I sat down
and talked to Jason Thrasher. Jason Thrasher
is a photographer, an author. He's done music
videos. He's a videographer. He did the Ghost
and Most, Drive -By Truckers music video. He
did the Go -Go Boots episodes. He's done portraits
of Drive -By Truckers, Guy Dead By Voices, R
.E .M., OutKast, Against Me, Widespread Panic,
and the Elephant 6 Collective. He's been published
in Rolling Stone. Photo District News, Billboard,
New York Magazine, The New York Times, Bitter
Southerner, Entertainment Weekly, Paste, Salon,
Pitchfork, Garden and Gun, and Spin Magazine.
He's done promotional photography for New West,
ATO, Anti Records, Warner Brothers Records, Razor
and Tie, Polyvinyl. And that's not even all that
we talk about because he also went to India a
couple of times throughout his life. And we had
an amazing conversation about all of that as
well. I hope you enjoy my talk with Jason Thrasher.
He's an amazing person. Just one of those people
that really drew you in. We joked he might also
be most famously known as the father of artist
Frances Thrasher, who we've had on the podcast.
We joked that he's been recognized as her father
like twice recently or three times or something
like that. Yeah, he's just an amazing guy. I
really enjoyed talking to him. I hope you enjoyed
listening to it. I can't claim. I'm working pretty
well, but I'm definitely not going to go stay
overeducated. I've had a couple of people at
first, they were like, I don't know if I should
be on that podcast. I'm pretty well employed.
I don't want to piss off my wife. I'm like, no,
I'm the underemployed one. That's why I'm going
around talking. I'm fully booked. I would like
to raise the bar on what I'm doing. Underutilized,
let's say. Virtually educated and underutilized.
We're on overeducated and underemployed. I'm
with Jason Thrasher. He's a photographer, author.
I don't know. The list is probably longer than
that, but those are the things that you're probably
most known for. I think it's funny that I get
called an author, I think. Oh, yeah. My writer
friends laugh. Yeah, yeah. That's just because
they had to earn it. They feel like you didn't,
I guess. He just takes pictures. You did interviews,
too. Yeah, I've done some. Yeah, I'm working
on my new book, my India book, and I've had to
actually spell some words and put it together.
Oh, wow. Write some chapters. See, they're not
going to be able to laugh for two. No, not at
all. Yeah. One of the things that you primarily
photograph, and one of the types of people is
a musician. And so I'm going to ask you the same
question that I ask musicians when I have them
on here. What's the first song that you remember
loving as a kid? And it doesn't have to be, obviously,
you might not remember the first one you loved.
I've got to go way back. I've got to go way back.
The first song I remember loving, I grew up in
Alabama in the 70s, and the first records I remember,
Kiss Destroyer, was the first album I had. Actually,
Patterson Hood and I called our production company
when we started doing music videos for the truckers.
We called it Destroyer Easter Bunny. Okay. Because
there's a photograph of me on Easter morning
holding the Kiss Destroyer record at, I guess
it came out in 76. I was six. And my sister is
standing next to me. The only reason I know it's
Easter morning is because she's holding a brand
new Easter bunny. Oh, wow. So the Easter bunny.
My parents were rad enough to give me the Kiss
Destroyer Easter. I can't remember what songs
are on that album, but I remember that being
my first, like, vinyl. And with Kiss, you don't
even have to play it backwards to get the satanic
message. Yeah, that cover, yeah. And then as
far as songs, I remember I was clean early on.
But before that, I don't remember a specific
song, but I was like, that's the one. I do remember
at some point, I don't remember when the Center
Bowl came out by the J. Giles Band, but I remember
buying that 45. Kmart and turning it backwards
in the packaging so my mom wouldn't read that
it said centerfold. But I think that was a little
later. Do you remember what it was about KISS
that first attracted you to them? The album covers.
The album covers, yeah. The album covers. And
then they just seemed dangerous. That's what
it was for me with the truckers. I saw the Dirty
South album cover. Yeah. Good album cover goes
a long freaking way. I had no idea who they were.
I was working at a record store, and it was going
to be on a listening post, so we had a bunch
of promo guys laying around. So I just took one
home, and the next day I bought all their albums.
Yeah, yeah. The Truckers, for me, it was, I don't
know if it was the album cover that got me, but
I, yeah, I grew up in Alabama, so I grew up in
Huntsville, and I was not, I did not know that
band. I didn't know the band at all. I think
I'd seen the name around town. But it was, I
got hired to shoot Rebecca's wedding, and she
was marrying this musician guy. And I didn't
know anything about them. And got to meet Patterson
on a wedding day. So that was your introduction
to them. Okay, that's interesting. That's why.
I didn't know them at all. And it was, I think,
either they gave me the Dirty Sal, or I got it
right after the wedding. I remember sitting in
the parking lot at this earth fair. and putting
people on the moon came on, and I hit repeat,
and I was like, what the fuck? That's exactly
what happened to me too, dude. I got home that
night, and four songs in, the fourth track, putting
people on the moon, I just put it on repeat for
like an hour. I was like, this guy should be
the Poet Laureate rather than me. Yeah, I was
an instant fan at that point. Hell yeah. No,
that was it for me too. Yeah, that record, that
song. Yeah, so we were a little late to that
game. I was 18. Oh. I was in Athens, so I should
have known. I feel like I was as early as I could
have been and really understood what was going
on. Maybe a couple years earlier. That whole
time period was definitely in the period where
I was, like, the Southern Rock guys came out
in 2001. So then I met in 99 and got left Athens
in 2000. I missed the first glans we were ever
coming out. Yeah. And then came back and we quickly...
We were running a company. We bought a house.
We were renovating a house. We had started our
family. So it was this whole time period, probably
2000 to 2006, where I really wasn't paying attention
to what was going on in Athens. Yeah. I was just
trying to figure out how to make a living. Let's
back up a bit, because I think my first introduction
to you was probably like the Go Go Boots episodes,
which I guess I forgot to mention documentarian
earlier as well. But let's back up a little bit.
So you're into Kiss as a kid. Yeah. Did you ever
really? And the Village People. And the Village
People. All the good album covers. Yeah, that
album cover. Just colorful album covers. But
did you ever dabble in trying to play anything
or sing or anything like that? Was that anything
of interest to you? There was a point in high
school where I thought, maybe I'll get a bass
and try to learn to play bass. And that was a
joke. zero musical skills. I did the exact same
thing in middle school for six months. I picked
up a bass and joined a band. It's not easier.
No. Maybe this is a way in. I feel like it's
like if you're in a band of completely unskilled
people, it's easier to blend in if you have no
skill on a bass. So I was like, just be loud.
But it didn't work at all. We actually made up
a band called The Hoovers because we sucked.
Yeah, I really could. The guy that we were actually
playing in the band just looked at me like, this
ain't going to work. Man, that's too bad because
the band name's pretty great. That's awesome.
I don't think any of the people in that band,
because it wasn't a band, but any of the three
of us in that band went on to be musicians. Yeah,
we made failures. And I think... That's one thing
I've talked to a lot of musicians on this podcast,
but I've also talked to a lot of people that
kind of do the jobs that a lot of people don't
really think about in the music industry, whether
it's photographers, people making album art.
I've talked to Cain Stanley, who he like rents
out drums to the Georgia Theater. He's a drummer
in a lot of bands, including Cosby Charlie, but
he also... makes a lot of money just like renting
out drums to touring bands that don't want to
back lining drums. So he, there's all kinds of
different things. Where did you realize that
you could, all right, I suck at playing bass.
I'm not a musician, but I love this shit. I want
to be part of it. How did you find your way?
How did you navigate that? It wasn't really something
I was thinking about at all. Okay. I didn't really,
I always just took pictures of my friends' bands.
But that was if they happened to have a hundred
bucks to afford a vital film. Right. Back then
there was like an investment involved. Yeah.
I'm coming up out of graduate high school in
89 in Alabama and then Birmingham. And I had
friends that were musicians and I would, I wasn't
really thinking about being a music photographer
at all. That wasn't a goal. That wasn't a thing
that I really pictured. It wasn't really, if
I had early on. wanted to do that i probably
would have gone a lot harder with it but it wasn't
the dream i i wanted to be a gallery artist and
do my own thing and the musician portraits that
was just like favors for friends interesting
something i really pursued in any kind of way
there was a band called lovanova in birmingham
to hire me early on to do some photos There was
Van Remy Zero, and they seemed like they were
very huge, and they were a friend of mine at
that time. So I did some photographs of them.
They weren't very good photographs. And then
I left Birmingham. I came to Athens, and it was
because of the music and the art scene and because
of people like James Herbert, who was doing things
for R .E .M. with videos, and Jim Cohen, the
filmmaker. But I was more interested in art school.
And art school was not a place where they encouraged
something like music photography at all. That
was not even a conversation. Those weren't even
images that were being shown to us in art school.
It was more documentary work or street photography
or classics. So what were some of your really
early interests when you first got into photography?
It was people like Robert Mapleforth. So I really
responded to his portraits. Yeah, I love that
book, Just Kids. yeah i didn't know art existed
i grew up in alabama not frostville smart town
but i didn't go grow up on museums or looking
at art books or art and luckily when i was 18
19 i won a skateboarding place in a skateboarding
contest we got to go out to arizona for the finals
okay and while we were in arizona we bought a
car, because we couldn't rent a car, we were
too young to rent a car, so we bought a car for
$300, like four of us shipped in $75, $80, $80
bucks, whatever a person had, and we bought a
car and decided to drive to Los Angeles from
Phoenix, and the car broke down in the desert,
we ended up hitchhiking to LA, we, yeah, we're
the Tijuana, bought LSD, came back to LA, skateboarding
around Hollywood and stuff that, like, tripping
our minds out and go into this bookstore, an
art book store. And I saw art books for the first
time at 19 and saw photographs. And you were
tripping at the time too. Yeah. Yeah. I don't
really remember what photography books I saw,
but I really remember looking at those MC Escher
books. Yeah. I've spent some time with my MC
Escher books. And I remember that night I was
like, that's what I want to do. And it was fine
art photography. And then. When I get back to
Alabama, luckily, crazily, there was a bookstore,
a Barnes & Noble kind of bookstore in Huntsville,
Alabama that had a really great art section.
And they even had the Mabel Court books with
all the great stuff in Huntsville, Alabama. So
I'm sitting there looking at these incredibly
erotic Mabel Court portraits and Enzo Adams and
Annie Leibovitz and I don't know who else at
that time. But it was still like, I never had
anybody encourage me to do any of this stuff,
and I didn't really know what it was or how it
worked or how you got to that place to be able
to do that kind of work. But I moved to Birmingham,
and I was starting photography school, and I
remember getting Patti Smith's Horses. And I
recognized that it was a maple fork without looking
at it. Maybe I had seen the Patti Smith. Maybe
I was like, holy shit, this musician knew this
photographer. And I put that together. So that
was like, the moment and then i started imitating
that that style of photography with friends of
mine at the time and doing like portraits and
like studio lighting and really just kind of
fantasy stuff nudes with bathing caps and nude
backs with like wings and just really what was
art so if they look like art or right you can
tell And I did my first exhibition at 22 or 23
years old in Birmingham, and my friends sold
almost everything. And I was like, oh shit, they
paid me $300 for that? And about the same time,
I was getting really tired. The shit was hitting
the fan for me in Birmingham. It was about to
break up, and I wanted to get out of Birmingham.
I ended up moving to Athens because of the art
scene. I knew the music scene, but when I found
out that Jim Herbert taught at the art school,
that's where I want to go. I want to go study
art with this guy. Even though he had known for
a lot of the work he did in music, he was still
an artist doing his own thing, his own art films
and his own paintings. The music video was his
side hustle, just something he did as favors
for his friends. In his later years, he doesn't
even want to talk about that stuff. He just wants
to talk about the painting. It became my main
mentor, so it was always a little bit of, okay,
we're artists. And in Athens, everybody's either
an artist or musician, so my immediate friends
in Athens were people like Juicifer and the Starburn
Boys. I think Juicifer was the first band that
photographed in Athens, and they were just a
couple of kids I worked with at The Grit. And
then I think the Starburn Boys actually had a
record deal, so they hired me to do some photos
because I knew what I was doing. Neth was in
that band. Talking to him on Sunday. Oh, cool.
So there's a portrait of the Stardom boys hanging
in Manhattan still that was shot in Manhattan.
That was one of the first prints from my Athens
work. Nice. And then my first paid job was actually
photographing R .E .M. The night they signed
my first real paid job. It was more than covering
the cost of the film. Because the name was Flash.
I got hired. My buddy Gavin worked for R .E .M.
apparently needed their last minute they decided
they needed a photographer to photograph them
signing the record setting record deal back in
96 with one of the brothers so i got hired to
go to their manager's house first sounds house
and photograph them signing this incredible record
deal and i was like hugely over my head and and
pulled the four band members aside really nervously
and asked if i could do a picture of the four
of them and i think i shot two frames How often
do you try and get yourself into those situations
where you're, like, in over your head? Oh, I'm
in over my head right at the second. I feel like
that's the only way to live. Yeah. The way I
work is, I did a photo shoot this morning with
Eric Falkman and his new band, and they met me
right here, 10 o 'clock this morning. We had
zero plan. They come in, like, where should we
go? Like, which direction is the compass point?
And it's, like, middle of... The middle of the
morning, bright sun, not a cloud in the sky,
the worst possible lighting scenario. And we
just head out, driving out towards Converse,
hoping to see something inspiring. And I go about
five, ten miles, and there's nothing. I got,
like, a car following me, five people. And it's
just hoping that we're going to find it. And
we saw this one kind of thing that might work.
We turned around, went back to it, and had a
great shoot. That was a good start. The old concrete
factory where they make all the... concrete sculptures
so yes follow your nose yeah just totally follow
it and follow the light yeah yeah i know the
word was which was the barometer point let's
go and like hope for the best and then after
an hour and a half we have probably 10 different
great setups that's awesome good stuff got pictures
of eric bachman on a hillside with a concrete
deer a silhouetted in the morning light that's
wild not something i would have ever guessed
we'd get but it was like an amazing shot I can't
wait to see them. Yeah, so it's always just kind
of what's going to happen. I've done that with
the truckers and many other bands. Sometimes
it's really thought out in the plan, or I go
out and scope some locations, but that doesn't
even really work for me. The light might not
be good at that point, or find a slot, but for
the best. While we're on the topic, what's your
approach in terms of socially or like with the
interaction between you and the artist when you're
when you are photographing like when you're not
when you're photographing like a live event but
when you're doing something like what you did
with Eric Bachman this morning or or when you're
doing these staged I think I'm just a joker I'm
just joking around just trying to disarm people
and have fun I think it's fun that we all kind
of wear it good like it was a good time and we
can hopefully catch something spontaneous, something
soulful and real. There is an idea that has hit
on me in India a couple years ago that photography
is a big energy exchange. It's kind of like what
we're doing right now. We're sitting here talking,
we're looking at each other, and we're sharing
this energy. And I really feel like my best photographs
happen when that real back and forth thing is
happening. It's harder on something I did this
morning. It was five of us, and we're working
really fast. But when I do a portrait, it's just
like you or one person, and you're sitting still.
You're really just hoping there's something that
goes in, hits the soul, and comes back. Yeah,
yeah. One of my first exposures to music photography
was I was probably like 15. More than just singing
the album art or whatever, but my aunt was living
in Seattle. And the Experience Music Project
at the time, I think it's called something else
now, but it's at the base of the Space Needle.
And Annie Leibovitz, you mentioned her earlier.
her american music show was on and you got a
headset and you would walk around each photograph
and scan the little thing or type in the number
and it was her telling you about the photo shoot
and i don't remember word for word but she said
something very similar when she met with john
cash and took some of the last photos of him
alive i think actually those photos of him on
course she took And that it was like, I really
just wanted to try and get him to be himself.
Yeah. Especially when you're working with somebody
who's been photographed a million times. Yeah.
And she's another level there. She's a celebrity
in her own right. Sure, sure. John Cash, he was
probably aware of who she is. Yeah. There's people
that have been photographed a lot, and they know
what they're doing, or they put a wall up. And
so it really is just about connecting, finding
out, or having them give you something honest.
Yeah, yeah. And I'm thinking back, just funny,
I remember that was my first introduction to
the North Mississippi All -Stars, too, was they're
in that American music, because she had the wherewithal
to photograph them way back in 2002 or whenever
that was. I've never seen her photograph it,
though. It's in the American Music book. If you
have that book, I highly recommend it. I'm sure
it's available still somewhere. Yeah. It's funny.
I love that book. She's a bigger influence than
I've ever really thought about. I'm sure what
I do. Yeah. I'm actually thinking about your
photographs of the All -Stars and her photograph
of the All -Stars that I've seen. And they have
a similar feel. I don't know. I don't know how
to describe it. There's a reason I thought of
that photo I was sitting here talking to you
and it's because they're a lot younger than the
photographs, especially the recent photographs
you've taken of the All -Stars. Let's see if
it comes up on the first try. I just heard from
the wall. It must be on that wall. I don't want
to dwell too long. I'll look it up later. I love
those guys. I think I've shot them two or three
times. There are definitely some guys that come
in with that honesty. world they've always seemed
like such genuine people and i've seen them in
big venues and festivals and everything in small
venues like little bars and they're they play
the same no matter they play like they're playing
to 10 000 people when they're playing to 150
people i feel like they're they give it their
all and everything yeah It's really cool. And
here in the studio, I told you earlier that since
we're on campus, they were the first band to
photograph in the studio when we first opened
this place four years ago. Yeah, yeah. I was
just looking at those photos earlier because
that was after Chris had passed and they got
a new bass player. Yeah, well, I don't know if
that was actually, that wasn't North Miss All
-Stars. That was just something that Luther and
Cody were doing together. Okay. Yeah, so it was
All -Stars. Gotcha, gotcha. Anyway, let's, so
you're, I'm going to jump back to where we were.
on the timeline a little bit you're you moved
to athens you're in school at this point for
fine art at uga yep and you're getting hired
to photograph rem yeah i mean there was no other
there was a follow -up job that was the job so
when was the next one like when did you start
and i don't mean just music you go when did you
start there wasn't one i think that must have
been 96. Or seven when that happened. And I was
deep in art school. And I was working at the
Globe, checking IDs at the door. And I was washing
dishes at my friend Hassan's restaurant, the
America Express. And I was working at this restaurant,
Guaranteed, mostly at those restaurants for trade
for food. Yeah. And then... You sound like a
comedian. Yeah. I told you that last time I saw
you. My daughter asked me if I could have any
other job as a photographer and stand -up comic.
Yeah. I performed for free drinks last night.
Yeah, there you go. Yeah, so I was just getting
by. I was making art. I was traveling back to
Alabama a lot to photograph a series I was working
on at the time called Gold State. So I was going
to Gadsden, Alabama, and I was doing a photo
series based on my family, about photographing
my family. So it was a lot of people that reminded
me of my family and kind of metaphorical or symbolic
of who we were and who I am. What was the...
Like, the drive to do a project like that? Where
it's, like, personal but not personal. Yeah,
for me, it's always, the art is always, the projects,
the good ones all have to have a personal angle.
It has to tell the story of who I am on this
planet. Or it's not, I don't know, I don't want
to do it. I'm not a journalist, and I'm not really
a documentary photographer, but I want to be
an artist, and there's a little bit of documentary,
but I'm not afraid to, like, cut fictions. Yeah.
So it's not necessarily factual. So that's what
I was really getting into at the time. My two
favorite photographs from that time period were
one of an old, probably older now than he was
at the time, but this old man in this bar in
Alabama that I photographed. He was in this Bill's
Lounge, this neighborhood strip club, bar, morning
coffee shop in the outskirts of Gadsden, Alabama.
and it was literally a coffee shop in the morning
and at some point during the day the waitresses
would start dancing and it would turn into like
strip club so i was going i went in one morning
to get coffee and i met this guy named harlan
and i've always known the alcoholism around my
family i'm like 13 years sober now but i even
knew at that time at what 26 years old that alcohol
was an issue and i remember this guy telling
me he was sober and it was his job was moving
houses And I photographed him against the bar.
And then it ultimately became a diptych. There
were two photographs, one of Harlan, who I saw
as the older version of me, the older sober guy.
It's funny, how old did I say I was? You didn't
say how old you were. You said that you were
probably older than he was at the time. I got
sober at 42, so I wonder how old he was. So I
always thought of him as the older me. And then
there was a young skateboarder that I photographed,
like down at Doken, Alabama. And so that was
like, this was like this, like, tiger -eyed young
kid with the sun hitting the sweat in his eyes.
So that was just, like, just two bar friends.
It was, like, the young me and the older me.
And then there were, like, photographs of, like,
houses being moved down the highway that were
just, like, out -focused and just, like, shot
with too slow of a shutter speed. So it was an
actress. And then it was, like, older folks hanging
outside some bars, like a dried -up old alcoholic.
This old man with a sledgehammer that I had met
that used to play poker with my grandfather.
So it was just from my grandparents' neighborhoods
and things that related to that. So that was
what I was really trying to do. I wasn't thinking
about music photography. I was just thinking
about these narratives and how to tell stories
about where you're from and what the South was
about. Do you mind talking about your alcoholism
a little bit more? No, I already brought it up.
It's a big part of the story. The joke a long
time ago that my camera was an extension of my
drinking arm. that's i that's i'm wondering how
you think it affected your work both when you
were drinking and now that you're not like how
the what the you thought was big deal i the other
one was the pot like i was a big pothead and
i always thought that i was like organized and
had my together until i got sober i looked at
my archives and realized it was just like chaos
yeah back then i always struggled with the idea
i had an uncle Family members who were alcoholics,
luckily my father stopped drinking for the last
eight or nine, ten years of his life. And if
he hadn't, he would have died of COVID five years
ago. So he got an extra five years out of his
life by being sober. So I always knew alcohol
was an issue. I always thought it. I drank a
lot. Those early days in college, I was definitely
drinking and smoking a lot of weed. And it didn't
get in the way of me making the photographs,
but it definitely got in the way of me having
a career around those photographs. Yeah. Yeah.
Definitely. There's a funny, I tell the story
of it, like in 2008, when I was definitely, I
gave up alcohol in 1999, 2000, right at the moon.
I gave up alcohol. I didn't drink for eight years.
Just looked weed that whole time. 2007 or 8 I
started drinking again and shortly after that
we went off to Los Angeles and I had been doing
all this music I started doing all this music
work already so I went out and was visiting Warner
Brothers and looking at trying to get work in
LA and found a gallery that wanted to show my
work and this gallery was like yeah we'll show
this NASCAR work of yours and that's 2008 and
I got so that was Talladega Talladega Tallapacandega
the wildest party in NASCAR 2012, when I got
sober, I found the prints in my basement that
I had made but never sent to the gallery in LA.
Wow. Yeah, so that's what pot did for me. It
didn't get in the way of making the pictures,
but it got in the way of the career happening
around those pictures at that time period. It's
interesting to me that you had this self -awareness
that it was problematic. Yeah, and it was part
of the series. The series was about alcoholism
in LA. Yeah. Part of my big story was going to
India, and that was right after college, and
that was in response to a time period where I
was drinking too much and some chaos was developing
around my life, and I basically, the joke that
people ask why I was in India was to grow up,
and it's a funny story, but really all I really
needed to do was get sober. Yeah, but instead
I did this journey through this planet to get
sober. I wasn't drinking during that time period
much. I cleared up and was focused on Buddhism
and traveling and making art in India. I feel
like it was the best pictures I've ever made
at that point. Did you ever feel like you hit
a bottom? Yeah, I hit the bottom. In my version
of alcoholism, the bottom was a very soft bottom.
I didn't lose everything, but I could have. At
that time period, no. The bottom was, no, I didn't
have anything to lose. Did you get the motivation,
though, for getting sober? The first time I quit
drinking was when I met my wife. Okay. So Beth
was shooting drink, and we went on our first
date after that trip to India, and I was three
drinks in on our third restaurant or bar we'd
gone to before I realized she wasn't drinking.
And I was like, you don't drink, do you? We quickly
fell in love and I gave up alcohol like on New
Year's Eve. What's that? Six weeks into our dating,
I gave it up. I can't believe she actually dated
me for six weeks while I was drinking. It was
probably under control at that time period because
it was after India. I would say the six months
before India, which was 98, to when I was leading
Beth, the alcoholism was not full blown. I was
on a Buddhist track. I was doing yoga. I was
working really hard on my heart. I don't think
the drinking was huge at that point. But I did
give up alcohol, and I met Beth, and then went
eight years without touching it, and did smoke
the weed, and got my business started, my career
going, and then started working with bands and
truckers, and it was somewhere along 2007, 2008
that it all started to pile up with the two kids
and the pressures of family and life, and we
just They were walking in the kitchen on Christmas
at her mother's house, and they were all drinking.
Not bad. But her family. And I just turned up
a bottle of wine. Did it feel like it was a coping
thing at the time? It was definitely coping.
But were you aware of that? No, it was something.
It was probably the most fun I'd had at her parents'
house. But it was definitely a coping thing.
And then, yeah, I don't want to get into all
the details. But then four years later, It's
not fun anymore. It wasn't funny. And the funny
thing that's not funny was when I, the eight
years I was just smoking pot and not drinking,
it wasn't that bad. But when I started drinking
and then I was smoking the pot, all of a sudden
it was like, ah, this is not good. Gotcha. There
was maybe a couple of years where it was fun.
And that's really the time period I was shooting
all the bands. Like I, yeah, I started shooting
truckers right after Patterson and Rebecca's
wedding. I think it was four. Brighton and Creation
Dark was the first thing I shot with those guys.
Yeah, and as soon as I worked with those guys,
at that point, I had lost my way as an artist.
I had been doing things like skateboarding in
the town and I helped build a skate park here
in Athens. All my creative energy was going through
skateboarding. I wasn't really thinking about
being an artist. I didn't know how to be an artist
anymore. I lost my way, like, in the parenthood
and the homeownership. I didn't know what to
say, what to do. I was a creative person. I was
shooting weddings for a living. I was doing fucking
shitload of weddings. Like, at some point, I
got to 40 or 50 a year. Did that feel like what
a band probably feels? Like, playing a bunch
of weddings? Soul -crushing. Yeah. I love shooting
weddings. Like, I'm still doing it, but I'll
never be 40 or 50 a year again. And at that point,
I didn't have any other way to make a living.
I didn't know how else to do this in Athens,
like how else to support a new family. Well,
it's different when you get to be selective about
which weddings you do. Anybody that wants to
pay, I'm happy to do it. Weddings are fun. I
will go down fighting. Weddings are fun. It is
a great business. And the reason I chose weddings,
there are a lot of other directions a photographer
could go, and a lot of photographers like...
shit on the idea of being a wedding photographer,
but what was great, what's great about wedding
photography, wedding photography presented itself
to me in India in 1998. I'm sitting here in India.
I had never, the only job I'd ever shot was for
Aridam. The only time I'd ever really been paid
to do a job. I wasn't trying to be a commercial
photographer. I didn't want to be a commercial
photographer. I wanted to be an artist. I'm going
to starve to death and be an artist. I'm going
to do my own fucking thing and that's it. And
then I'm going to go to grad school and I'm probably
going to teach. That was the plan. But in India,
I'm sitting there and I had Started racking up
a little bit of a credit card when I was in India
and a friend of mine asked me to shoot her wedding
right before I left for India and I did it and
she had asked me like three times and I finally
did it and I made some money and it was and actually
did two right before I went to India. One of
them was the first gay Jewish wedding, the first
gay wedding I ever shot in 1990. I only did it
because it was a gay wedding. There's this gay
Jewish wedding in Atlanta and they paid me really
well. And so that money helped get me to India.
So I'm sitting there in India thinking, how am
I going to make a living? How am I going to support
myself as an artist? And it was like, I've said
this many times, Joe was like, Buddha or God
was like, go all in, photograph wedding. The
only reason that what I learned was, or realized,
was the only way I'm not going to make a living
is because of my ego. And it's the ego that's
like, I'm not going to shoot a wedding. I'm too
good to do that. I'm an artist. I'm not. It's
all ego. Yeah. So then I came back and I got
asked to do a wedding. I was like, cool. Two
grand. Great. I hadn't made that much money in
a year at that point. The one kind of ego that
got you into fine art. Then it killed the soul.
It didn't really. Weddings were great. I have
a lot of weddings from Star Trek, 500 of them.
There was a time period around 2010 where I just
couldn't do it anymore. I was doing so many.
And that was also after I started drinking. So
it coincided with that, and I thought about that,
but that was when I was in 2010. Anyway, so I
got into the weddings. It's a great way. What
I love about the weddings was it was a way to
make a living with photography that was not selling
out. You're not making art for a corporation.
You're not making images for Coca -Cola or for
some big advertising firm. It was all about something
that somebody would appreciate. In a lot of cases,
it's like... the happiest people are going to
be for a long time. Yeah, there's some stress
to it. But yeah, the work had legitimate, soulful
reasons to exist. You're drinking, you're doing
wedding photography. Is that the only thing you're
having to do to pay the bills at this point?
At that point, weddings was my business. And
then I helped build the Athens Skate Park. So
it was this time period where I was like, I'll
build a skate park, renovating a house, shooting
really weddings. Who am I now? I don't know what
I'm doing anymore as an artist. I'm just completely,
literally just completely lost as an artist.
And then I shot Patterson and Rebecca's wedding.
And then our first children were due the same
day. And Patterson has told the story that his
wedding reception is so good that four children
were conceived that night. And he literally pointed
to me from the stage and told the story. He goes,
even our photographer knocked up his wife. So
Eli and Francis were due on the same day. responsible
for his own album cover. Yeah. Yeah. It's all
in the family. So we got to know those guys through,
like, Plager. And I had known Rebecca for years
at that point. Hanging out at Plager, but we're
sitting around the playground with his little
babies. And the first photo I did with the truckers
was the day that Isabel left and had her band
photo today. And the band was Scamer. And that
was the first time. So I never got to shoot Jason.
so that was the first time that i met the rest
of the band and photographed i guess i met them
at the wedding but i shot them shot them truckers
with schooner and got great stuff and then went
straight into working on that record did a ton
of stuff we did a video for my first music video
ever was for goes to most okay i don't think
i realized that you had done that music video,
I'm sorry. Yeah, that's alright. I still think
it's my favorite point of my favorite music video.
Yeah, it's awesome. I love that video. Yeah.
What I love about that video was the phone call
I got from Cooley after we finished it, and he
called me. I was in the Airbrush T -shirt shop
in Panama City with the family, and I get this
phone call from Cooley, and he's like, man, I
didn't know what that song was about, so I saw
the video. I love that. So from that point on,
I was like... all in on the band and the music
and doing that stuff and i started getting calls
because of the trucker stuff i was either a favor
for a friend i started working without chambers
and anybody in athens that i knew for years and
loved and actually photographs and i was getting
because the trucker stopped getting calls from
bigger acts that were coming through athens like
the north and south stars or did a trip to la
to try to like make some connections with people
i knew and got like against me out of that and
crafter which is funny because they were david's
here but yeah yeah crafter well i was in los
angeles and i'm talking to brian soon oh cool
yeah i think next month we're gonna yeah i'm
just gonna come on the guy's got a great voice
he's done some voiceover work for me oh really
some videos yeah he does a lot he does quite
a bit of that yeah yeah so he was yeah i'm not
gonna name the company because the company was
they're gone it wasn't great great company but
he was my voice in this company for a while nice
nice yeah he's great and So then it was really
like, what, 2007 to 2012, just an avalanche of
me shooting bands and music. And at what point
in there did you get sober again? 2012. So you're
drinking at that point, but you're also, were
you drinking like while you're shooting the band,
like at the show? Yeah. It's the party, right?
It's a party. Yeah, about two or three in the
morning. Kids at home, like not being responsible,
but having a blast. But it enabled me to break
out of just being a wedding photographer, which
was really killing me by that point. I didn't
want to be known for my wedding photography.
I just wanted to get paid. Yeah, yeah. Shoot
those jobs. And then somehow in the music stuff
also, I started getting more day -to -day commercial
stuff. And I do think working with bands and
so many Athens icons has helped me stand out
in the Athens. community as an artist and a photographer,
so I get hired because people like my photograph
of panic. I'll get a wedding, or I'll shoot a
wedding because the couple met at a drive -by
trucker show. Or somebody at a music band, and
they know my works. So, well, from there. Right.
But there became a dark side to the music work
for me. Not just the alcohol part, but the soul
part. I got really frustrated. You can only shoot
so many weddings without getting a little tired
of shooting weddings. You can only shoot so many
groups of five guys lined up against a cool backdrop
without getting sick of shooting five guys lined
up against a backdrop. And then having their
record label use things in ways that you weren't
hoping. Choosing an image that you didn't want
to use. Or then sending one out to a magazine
without having to retouch it. Like I said, there's
a lot of frustrations even in that. About how
cool that was. This is still... What ultimately
realized it was still commercial started. It
wasn't my hour. But you're always someone, I
think, that also has really tried to invest in
the community. Yeah, 100%. And I think that's
part of why you... There were so many people
invested in me. Exactly. Because you mentioned
it briefly, you built the skate park here. You've
done a book about Athens. That's what I was getting
to. So Athens Potluck was my answer to being
burnt out on shooting bands. So I wanted to focus
on individuals, and I wanted to do something
for myself on music. I wanted to do something
that was personal on music and about Athens and
not about the bands. Gotcha. Yeah, so that was
the whole way into Athens Potluck. Beth was the
one that had the idea that for months I was trying
to figure out how to do this book about Athens.
There was an idea that it would be this book
of all my band work. And then I'd have to go
find some bands and shoot some bands. I was like,
I never got to shoot R .E .M. as a full band,
other than that part where that picture's not
something for that. Or I never got to shoot Two's.
I did shoot Pylon, luckily. But Buckville I didn't
shoot. And a lot of history I didn't have. So
then it became this big conversation with UJ
Press and Flagpole that I'd be a curator of the
book. And I'd go and find, and I was like, I
don't want to do that. And then I was like, I
just want to photograph. Individuals, because
I like doing portraits, my main thing, and that's
what I'm best at. And then Depp had the idea
that if I shot the first person, then that person
could pick the next person. And that was the
missing link, was that's how we could journey
through Athens to tell the story that, like,
the legends don't have to be picked, and it can
still work. Michael Cypress ultimately picked,
but even if he hadn't been, there's still references
to Aryan in the book, and there's references
to the 52s, and there's references to... Well,
it may have a life of its own in a way. So potluck
was my way to do something personal, doing an
art project on the music scene. And that was
really where I found myself as an artist again.
And as I was shooting potluck, I was probably
two years into it, two and a half years into
it, when I got sober. And at that point, I was
really frustrated. I was shooting bands. I was
like, I don't know. It starts to be the same
thing after a while. And then I really had lost
interest in shooting live shows or much else,
even going out for live shows. Like, I don't
really go out that much. I started giving up
at 4 or 5 in the morning and just got lit. I'm
just going to be an artist. I want to be where
I think again. I want to find stories to tell
that are personal. And I started working on the
Burma Chesil Project and digging into Athens
Potluck and finishing that project. That came
out in 2017, so that's five years right there.
You think you would have finished the book without
getting sober? No. No way. No way, because the
process of getting the book done, both books,
neither book would exist, because the process
of getting the books done required full focus,
like full mental focus on we had to do a crowdsourcing
campaign, we had to do these events, we put shows
on at the Forty What and the Dorsey Theater to
help raise awareness and funds and pre -sales,
and no way I could have done that. Yeah, I would
have pissed people off. I could have finished
shooting the work. Was that kind of one of the
issues you had? When you were drinking, would
you run an out? No, I didn't have that many people
coming up to me saying that I pissed anybody
off. When I got sober, people were like, what
do you mean you had a problem? Yeah, yeah. I
feel like a lot of people said that about B .J.
Barham because he never got too out of control
from the American choir. I got to tell a story
earlier about a night where I was out of control.
yeah yeah earlier so there were moments but it
would be mostly the only person that knows is
my wife man beth was done with my drinking and
i'm one of those people that i'm so grateful
that i had that moment where i had to quit because
if i was still if i was a part -time drinker
i wouldn't have what i have i wouldn't have the
focus that i have i wouldn't have the work that
i have like i love this variety thing i'm not
one of those we're talking about it now but i
never really talk about it yeah yeah When I asked
you, and I appreciate you talking about it. It
was funny. We did a talk here at the gallery
two nights ago with Terry Allen and Jim Shaw,
and I mentioned the drinking part and some of
the stories because there were a couple of photographs
that I showed in the slideshow that the negatives
were lost. So it was like, how did you lose these
negatives? I was like, I'm learning this whole
thing. Yeah. But it reminded me after she pointed
it out at the top there, I never told the room
that I was sober, which is funny. But I think
they all know me, so I think everybody knows.
Yeah. So it has come up a couple of times. It
is a big part of my story. And I do know that
the two books wouldn't have happened. And then
the India Project, I'm working on that book,
which is hopefully the third book. That one definitely
wouldn't have happened. What kind of brought
you back? So none of it would have happened.
What was the inspiration to bringing you back
to India? Was it because of your earlier experiences
there? Yeah, like it was just like I've been
obsessed with it since I first went. Beth and
I met because of India. She bought the first
print that I made after I came back. It inspired
her to go to India, and then we met, like, the
day before she left to go on that trip, because
of this photograph. Cool. So India's been a big
part of my story and my life, and I'm obsessed
on the images, but, like, five... Now it's been
two years since I had gone back, so it's been
27 years since that first trip, but, like, on
the 20th anniversary, I started going back through
the negatives for the first time, and I've said
now I know what it means when I've been told,
like, remaster a record. Yeah, yeah. I feel it
now. Paul Harris, you have skills that your younger
self didn't have. I've even gone back and remastered
a couple of early episodes. Yeah, yeah. So I
did an exhibition of the India work on the 20th
anniversary of that trip, and the work had never
looked as good. And negatives that had never
been printable all of a sudden looked fantastic.
And the story was shown complete for the first
time of what I had done, specifically Varanasi,
India, or Benares, however you want to call it.
It was at that show, which was in Africa, where
I showed that India work, and a young person
came in and wanted to go back. I just dreamed
of going back, but I never would have thought
I would be able to, just because of family and
our busy life and our bills and having to get
away again. You don't get to be 28 and run off
to the other side of the planet for four months
at 55. But on that show on the 20th anniversary
show, I just... Screw that sentence up. How do
you say that? The 20th anniversary show at Africa.
Yeah. A young guy from Varanasi came into the
gallery with his girlfriend, and they spent about
an hour walking down this really long wall looking
at all the photographs of this ancient city.
And when he gets to the back, I introduce myself,
and he tells me he's from Varanasi. He's the
same age as the kids in the photographs, that
he had worn that uniform to school. He had that
same haircut. Did you, have you been back? And
I was like, I would love to go back. And he goes,
if you go back, the very first person you meet
is going to take you by the hand and take you
to all their houses. And he'd say, it's like
looking at pictures of my childhood that there
are no photographs of my childhood. So I knew
right then, this was now seven years ago, I knew
right then that I had to go back. I was like,
I've got to go back. And it became a massive
obsession. But there was no window. My kids were
in middle school and early high school. But I
remember, At some point at that time period,
I looked at the calendar and I was like, okay,
25th anniversary. And I did the math and I looked
and I was like, Frances will have graduated high
school. She'll be in college. Josie will be driving.
There might be help. And oh, and this year is
our 25th wedding anniversary. And last year was
our 25th dating anniversary. So two years ago,
it was just our 22nd, 23rd anniversaries. So
like, it's not a big anniversary. The kids were
like, that's almost two years now. And I was
like, there's a window. November is the 25th
anniversary of this trip. And I joked about it
with Beth, and I was like, I got to go, I got
to go, I got to go. And she's like, you can't
go to India. What are you thinking? How are you
going to pull that off? And then one day, earlier
that year, the second trip, I looked up. I was
looking at plane tickets, and I was like, hey,
Beth, my SkyMiles, I can get a ticket for $160
to India right now. Okay, just do it. Just do
it. And I bought it right then. I was like, all
right, I'm going. Don't tell me twice. Yeah.
The funny part, I was supposed to go for 10 days,
and then we were on a walk for a night, and I
was like, I'm going to be there. Why don't you
go, if you want, you can stay two weeks. i don't
know how long she said and then we get back to
the house and she goes back to the bedroom and
i go back out in the backyard and call delta
and i'm out there for 45 minutes coming she's
like i just extended the trip it's there in three
weeks yeah and then when i yeah but yeah she
really loved the fact that once i was there i
called instead of staying another week so i spent
a month on that second trip there's the train
yeah yeah people can't hear it there's the train
built probably I can add a little bit of audio
from the room mic if I need to. Yeah, it came
by when I was talking to Francis, too. I think
the one that came by when I was talking to Francis
was going the other direction. Maybe it's the
same one, it's just coming back. It's fine, it's
just circling. I made it back to Varanasi, India
on the 25th. They had literally the 24th anniversary
of the first trip, like on the same day, five
years later. And the first trip, it took me months
to travel through India and I got to this ancient
city. And then on this last trip, I flew to Mumbai
and then two days later, flew to Varanasi. And
I did really get acclimated to India. And it
wasn't as crazy the first time because, A, I
had cell phones. I'm texting Paul and my family
and friends while I'm there. I'm watching my
taxi on Google Maps. Yeah, and it's a different
experience than it was the first time. But anyway,
so I fly into Varanasi, which is like literally
the whole city on the earth. And I go down to
the Ganges River. I checked in my hotel, walked
down to the river, just take a peek. And I go
over to the burning god. And I'm super... Like,
reluctant to just, I'm not going to go up. And
then a piece of distance. I'm just going to take
a peek at this place. And it was a big deal 25
years ago to see it. And I wrote about it then.
And I had a description in a photograph that
I didn't make the first trip. That's something
I saw. And I wish I could have photographed fireworks
going off of it. And it was burning gardens.
And fireworks exploding on Diwali in the New
Year. It was the first time I'd seen it in 1998.
So I'm going back for it. through Wally or to
Wally, to be there 24 hours later for this holiday.
And I walk down to just take a peek at it, and
this guy comes up, and he wants to be my tour
guide, and he just starts hustling me, like pulling
me in, and he's like, can you follow me on your
tour? And I'm like, dude, I just got here. I've
been literally in India for 48 hours, and I've
been in the city for 30 minutes. And it's sunsetting,
it's getting dark, and he just keeps pulling
me in, and I'm like super reluctant to go walking
through all these funeral pyres. And next thing
you know, with him, we're just walking right
through the middle of it, and he shows me all
the stuff that they were showing the tourists.
And next thing you know, we're up on the top
where there's fire burning behind us, and we're
looking up off this balcony over all the fires
and the river and looking down the Ganges and
the whole stretch of the city. And he's just
really hustling me as a tour guide. He's starting
to tell me that I can take pictures if I want
to, but I know he's going to tell me I have to
pay if I do it. I'm like, man, I just got here.
He's really pushing me hard. He's just really
working me. And I'm like, man, I just got here.
I've been here before. And he's like, oh. And
I started telling him the story, and I told him
about how my wife bought this photograph from
the city. And that's how we met, and blah, blah,
blah. And I'm telling him this whole thing. And
I pulled my phone out, and I started to show
him the photographs. And he just pissed. His
face changed 100%. He went from trying to hustle
me to, how can I help you? And he sees the photograph,
and he recognizes the city. He can see. And then
I go to the next one. He goes, I went to school
with her. And he's just frozen. He goes, I know
her. And then he goes to the next one, and it's
a photograph of a man holding a baby. And he's,
that's him. The baby is a man who's delivering
firewood. His job is to carry firewood into the
burning house. And then he's like, that's Vicky.
And Vicky was the only name I knew from the first
trip. And he was a 14 -year -old kid in that
first trip. And now he's 40. And he goes, that's
Vicky. And I'm like, okay, you're legit. That
is Vicky. I remember his name. And he's like,
that's Ramesh. The store's right there. I'm like,
I know. It's got to be right around the corner.
He's like, is it still there? He goes, yeah,
it's still there. So, you know, it became this.
Right then my phone rings. This is how different
it is. I'm like in the ancient world. She calls
and I answer and I just. She's like, how's it
going? I just broke into tears. I'm just like,
holy shit, like everything I was hoping was happening.
And the next morning, he met me back there. It's
a longer story, but he met me back there. And
the whole crowd of people followed me to the
store to meet Ramesh. And the whole neighborhood
gathered around. I had brought all these 8x10
prints with me, black and white prints from the
early days. And there was one photograph of these
three shop owners, and one of them was Ramesh.
And it was a picture that had never been printed.
And it was not a picture I thought it was important.
And about a week before the trip, my buddy Charlie
Friedlander, who's a great photography collector,
and he was looking, he was like, he was making
me open up everything. He was so interested in
this. And we opened up his hard drive, and I
seen that picture. I was like, I should print
that one. And that ended up being the picture
of these three guys that were met. And he's just,
oh my God. The whole neighborhood was gathering
around looking at these photographs. And they're
just like. I got to the point where everywhere
I went, people were like, I know who you are.
So I just got invited in on the deepest level.
I would spend my nights for three weeks, almost
a month, every night just sitting at the burning
gut watching funeral pyres with the locals and
the kids and the older people. Everybody wanted
me to hang out with them and take pictures. I
got invited in. Can you tell me the story of
what first took you to that city? 27 years ago.
That's a good story, too. Like, it's just fucking,
that all, the craziest, this is the Earth. It's
nuts. Like, time and space. So I was in India,
and I had been traveling for three and a half
months through India at that point. But maybe
a little earlier than that, I was up in the Himalayas,
and we had gone to see this musician, the sitar
player, and had not seen live sitar music in
India yet. We see this poster, and it's going
to be a concert. So a bunch of us went up the
mountain, and we were up in Dharamsala, where
Dalai Lama lives. So we head up into this smaller
little community, and we see this sitar concert.
And it sold out. We can't get in. And we're like,
ah, we're looking through the window. And I have
one photograph where I pushed the camera up against
the glass and snapped, and you can see the sitar
flair. And we were just so disappointed that
we didn't get in for this concert. And then about
a week later, I spent a month in the Himalayas
on that trip. So about a week later, I get an
invitation from this person I met, and she's
like, do you want to come share this room at
this ashram on that? And I'm like, cool. And
I go up, and it turns out it's the tablet player's
house, and the sitar player's staying there.
And they fucking jam every night in the living
room. five of us sometimes three of us sometimes
just me raul this uruguayan ex -hat and myself
and these two guys would just jam for hours it
was the most amazing experience and i had long
conversations with them about all of it and everything
life and all of it but ajit was from benares
varanasi it's also known as kashi so the oldest
name is kashi the british i think called it benares
and now it's known as varanasi but to me the
city's been ours like when i see it i still like
benares So anyway, Ajit was from Benares. And
at that point, I was about to head south to Kerala,
which is really beautiful. And there's backwaters.
And it's really chilled out part of India. And
no trip to India would be complete without going
to Benares. He said Benares. That's probably
where he walked in. And he said, that's where
I grew up. You've got to go to Benares. A few
days later, a week or two later, a few weeks
later, I ended up back in Delhi. And I had met
him. this actress at the beginning of my trip,
this kind of legendary Indian actress. That's
a whole other long story. But I met some really
amazing people in India. I met an actor who's
beloved, and through him I met this actress who's
Indian Meryl Streep. She's a photographer and
both of them got their start in Satyajit Ray
films, who made Path of Penchale, one of my favorite
Indian films. So I met these two people in the
first week, and then... Deepti novel, the actress
told me that when I got to Delhi, she does call
Raghu Rai. And Raghu Rai is like India's one
of their two legendary photographers. He's the
only one who's still living. But I knew his work.
I looked at every one of his books before I came
to India. So when we get to Delhi, I get invited
to go to his house. Fucking crazy. Like, how
does that happen? So I go to this man's house,
and he doesn't know why I'm there. And he's like,
who are you? And I'm like, I'm Deepti's friend.
And he's like, okay. And he's like, come on in.
I'll be back. And his servant comes up and he
asks me for my breakfast. Or he asks me for my
breakfast. He tells his servant. He's got a little
housekeeper, butler kind of guy. So this guy
goes and makes me breakfast. And right away,
the photographer disappears. This guy brings
me a tray, just a delicious breakfast. I sit
by myself in this gorgeous room, this fucking
beautiful house. And I eat this tasty breakfast.
And then after I'm finished, the photographer
shows up. And he goes, so what are you doing
here? Not in my house, but in India. Yeah, yeah.
And he pulled out his photography books, and
he showed me his photo books, and they were all,
I didn't like the work. It wasn't his work. He
was showing me his random photo books, and he
was like, what are you thinking? I was like,
I don't like his work. And he goes, these are
all photographers that came here and exploited
my people. What are you doing? And like, real
serious. What are you doing? What's your mission
here? What's your goal in India? And I told him
that I had been, I was looking to see who I would
be if I'd been born and raised in the other side
of the planet. And I wasn't at temples photographing
people praying. I was looking for people on the
streets living a normal life. I was looking to
really ask the answer. Who would I be if I didn't
want to be on this other planet? But I wasn't
stalking Sadhus, and I wasn't stalking religious
people. And I wasn't. And I told him that I...
Then he changed, and I guess he let me answer.
And then he pulled out a bunch of his prints
and let me pick out a print of his that he was...
again that would give away to something and he
was asking my opinion on some of his parents
which i thought was really cool um yeah i told
him that i was about to switch the guy i was
about to switch the color film i've gone through
100 rolls of black and white triax film that
i brought with me and i couldn't find trance
in india and all i could find was this like kind
of cheap codec black and white film and it was
garbage and i was going to switch the color because
you keep doing what you're doing and he literally
Made a phone call, put me in a taxi, and then
sent me to his camera store, and they had a block
of, like, 20 rolls of triax waiting for me when
I got there. And I paid for it, but he, so he,
I felt like I had gotten a blessing from the
master. The next morning, I got on a plane and
flew to Benares on Ajit's recommendation. I get
to Benares, which is one of the most photographed
cities in India. I haven't seen countless photographs
of it. All the photographs are basically from
a boat of people praying on the river in the
sunrise. sun washing across them, pouring water,
doing blessings. Almost every photograph is that
scene. And I get to Benares and all of a sudden
I'm like speechless. First time in India where
I'm like, oh, this is too holy. And I see these,
literally I see boatloads of Western tourists,
like tourists. People my current age. Like I'm
a jet boat. People my current age with telephoto
lenses making those photographs. And that's what
The thing is, in Varanasi, is that sunrise thing.
And I was like, I'm not, shoot, what do I do
here? Yeah, I just told this guy that's not what
I'm doing. Clearly, I don't want to do what they're
doing. And then I met this other guy who was
clearly like an established photographer. And
we were having a conversation on the river. And
he says, he's telling me about how he had befriended
one of the sadhus. And the sadhus are like the
holy guys. They're mostly naked, a little bit
of one cloth. The Aghoris are completely naked.
Dreadlocks, they're smoking the chillum, like
the hashish, and they're the holiest. They're
considered the spiritual devotees. They've given
up everything in their life just to live, and
they're taken care of by the community. So he's
like, oh, I got invited to one of the sadhu camps.
And I was like, oh, that seems weird, too. But
also, I was a secure, young, secure photographer.
even though I was killing it at the time with
what I was, I think, making my best pictures
of my life. I was like, oh, this guy's clearly
like a pro. It's kind of like a National Geographic
photographer. He was older. He clearly was like
war -torn, world -old photographer. But they
kept telling me in the city that everybody is
considered holy. It's such a holy city that everybody
that lived there is holy. And I was like, walking
down the street one morning, and this little
girl was turning up to me. It was the third day
in the city. I remember the second or third day
in the city, and this little girl was like, my
name is Rahel, and I'll be your guide. And she
just wanted some money, but it was her neighborhood.
So I'd run into her every time I would go out.
And then one morning, I'm walking down these
narrow streets. There's all these beautiful winding
streets. And I had not really been photographing
yet. I'd been there for three days, and I hadn't
taken a picture. And I was just, fuck, how do
you? photograph this place it's coming to you
man it's so holy like it's just the center and
the mythology is it is holy it is the center
of the universe after that current trip i do
believe it's the center of the universe i've
experienced things there that i've never experienced
anywhere else there's a vibration there but i've
been told like it's the holiest place everybody
there is holy if you die there you're liberated
from samsara you go to nirvana it's the place
so i'm like what's the difference between these
devotees, the sadhu, and everybody else. And
I'm walking down the street corner, and this
guy basically jumps out of this little window
stall. He says, you want to buy a magic stick?
And he looked like my buddy Hassan, who's from
Morocco, but they had a similar mustache and
hair. And I was like, and my buddy Kevin is a
magician. And so he got my attention. People
were trying to sell me hash the whole time I
was in India. And I spoke a little bit of hash,
especially with Ajit and those guys. smoking
up there. And this guy jumps out, and I wouldn't
buy it off the street from anybody. He was like,
want to buy a magic stick? I was like, look at
my buddy Hassan. So I sit down with him, and
they have these little cookies with these little
dollops in the middle, and there's this general
store, chai shop, and he's got cookies, and there's
a barbershop over here, and I just end up hanging
out on the street corner, and every day I would
come by and get a cookie. I'd just kind of walk.
But I don't know at what point I started taking
pictures that all of a sudden it just clicked.
It was like, oh, I don't need the river. It's
these people. And I spent two weeks on that street
corner hanging out with the locals and the kid
Vicky and I didn't know his name, but Ramesh,
who is now my brother. And it's a really interesting
street corner because it's where all the funeral
processions lead going down to the Ganges. So
it's right around the corner to the burning up.
So I was just struck by the fact that there's
this neighborhood where all these people are
hanging out, and it's just regular life, there's
stores, there's all this stuff, but every 10
-15 minutes you hear this chant, around such
a head, around such a head, and a group of people
come by carrying a body, and the people on the
street don't flinch. I'm like, wow, death is
such a part of their world that they don't notice
it. In my photo of Vicky, from back then is this
kid with his arm around his buddy, his name is
Rambabu, which I just learned two years ago,
Rambabu, and they're looking at me like they're
making like little gun hands and they have to
stand like this, and there's a funeral walking
behind them. There's always, I just love this
portrait of these kids because they're just like
hamming it up with a camera. There's a funeral
right here. So that's what I spent two weeks
photographing. I had some pictures of the river.
There's boatmen. There's one of my all -time
favorite photographs. Two of my all -time favorite
photographs are of boatmen in boats on Ganges.
I met both of those people on this last trip.
That's wild. Totally wild. Yeah. I photographed
one boatman in the same boat. There's this one
photograph of these two boatmen. They're fishing.
They're fishermen. I was one of the boatmen that
now realized, oh, he's fishing in that photo.
I didn't realize he was fishing. They're just
fishermen. And it's this ancient temple behind
them. It's not a temple, but a palace. And I
found them. And we went out and we staged the
photograph. Like, they were so cool. They were
like, yeah, let's go out and pose. The old man,
Kashi, is pulling out fishing line. He's pretending
he's fishing in the new photograph. It reminds
me of a little bit of a story. So my mom and
my stepdad have been married for 19 years now.
And they didn't meet until like 24, 25 years
ago. But they both grew up down in St. Petersburg.
My mom grew up playing marching band, and they're
going through photos, just old photos of themselves
from when they were kids. And my mom finds this
photo of her in the marching band, and we're
in a parade. And in the background, there's a
guy, like, tying his shoe. Is he your husband?
It's my stepdad. That's awesome. Yeah, and it
was, like, from when they were kids. Oh, wow.
And, yeah. That's great. Yeah. Let me add one
little thing. I didn't finish it. That sitar
player, Ajit, I found him five years ago on Facebook.
He lives in Paris, or in France, southern France,
with his wife. He met a French woman and eventually
married and moved to France. During lockdown,
I would pay to watch some of the sitar concerts
online. so i and then all of a sudden became
every time i posted on facebook i'd see that
a jeep would like my facebook post i was like
man the world is so small that is so cool and
then two years ago when i started planning the
india trip i told you from benares so i messaged
him on facebook and said hey i'm going i'm finally
going back to india i'm going to benares and
he writes back i am too and i said when are you
going And we arrived in the Norris Airport an
hour apart from each other. He was going back
for the first time in three years to see his
family. That's crazy. So I got to have dinner
at his house and meet his family. That's so awesome.
It was so awesome. I was hoping for a Sintar
concert, and they were going to perform for me,
but I didn't get a fever and didn't get to go
back to the third dinner. I missed out on the
concert. But these guys, he and his two brothers,
grew up, and their dad, their father, Contemporaries
with Robert Shankar. They grew up with Robbie.
They knew him growing up. He was like the master.
And his dad played with him. Wow. But the coolest
thing is his brother and his wife were telling
me this story about how they met. And we met
up in northern India at this tabla player's house,
Ashoka. I was like, that's where I met Ajit.
And they were like, what? I was like, that's
how Ajit and I know each other, was from Ashoka's
house. And that's where his brother met his wife.
That's crazy. Like, how small are you? How am
I going to know in the place? What a great, cool
thing. That's wild. The world is really a fucking
crazy place. Yeah. To have it shrink like that,
man, it's so cool. Man, so you mentioned some
of the subtle differences and the big differences
in your experience between, and not just because
you'd grown, because the technology and... yeah
so you were in constant contact all these things
had changed and now they're in constant contact
with the now we could call them right yeah but
the other thing i read maybe what struck me about
that too is like how much the field of photography
has changed since then too yeah can you just
reflect on i don't that could be a whole hour
conversation around itself but i think that for
me like It's the storytelling part that's important
now. There's a million photographs to be made
right at the second. And about the story part,
what's the point? So that's where I got really
lucky. I got lucky with Potluck, that there's
a story. So it's gotten a lot. People still respond
to that work because there's a story. If it was
just a bunch of pictures, it could be cool. Yeah,
there's a story. And even Murmurch Hustle, for
the people, it's a short story. There's a story
around it. And with the India work and the book
that I'm working on, there's a story to it. So
whether the technology is not a part of it, other
than the fact that 1998's black and white film,
2023's color digital, but luckily for me, the
technology plays into adding to the texture of
the story. So even if I had shot color in 98,
it wouldn't be as big of a contrast. So that's
for, luckily I shot, luckily, Roger Rye gave
me black and white film. Yeah. If I had switched
the color. It wouldn't be as much of a contrast.
And I was on it like that until right now. But
luckily, he hooked me up with that film. Otherwise,
the Benares work would have been colored. They
would have spilled, I think, I would love to
see what color would have looked like at the
time. But Robbie Ryan has telepictures of Benares
in 1998. Yeah. He gave me that film for a reason,
right? I hope to. I saw that he was teaching
a workshop there last year. I was like, oh, I
want to go back and do his work. And he's 75
now. But the goal, the real goal is to, get the
book to the next level and happen to see it yeah
maybe maybe he'll be touched by it and get a
quote or something so where does this all like
you're working on this next book do you have
goals or do you just do what you have the tools
to do in front of you in the moment but right
now the goals are three or four books in mind
so the goal is to get a couple things finished
One of those moments was the best part of getting
the second book made. It felt like now there's
a second book, everybody can get to make books.
The India one would be the most important one
to me if I get it done. I have the goal of 40
years of Athens book. 34 years. Six years from
now, it would be nice to finish that and then
maybe move to India or something. I have that
goal. a book a project i did with my kids when
they were little called menagerie that francis
and josie we all collaborated on these photographs
when they were little so that's a book that we
want to make so the real goal is to get those
books finished and then there's no real expectations
or goals or dreams bigger than that okay photography
for me at this point is is really what i get
from it on a daily basis of doing it is the reward
like i don't really yeah i don't see galleries
ever really embracing me I don't really see breaking
through to a bigger scene than what I do in Athens.
I don't really think I'm going to get called
to New York and LA to do capital A of our world
stuff. I don't really, and I don't care. The
real joy of what I do is what I get to do when
the camera comes out and I get to photograph
people. It's fucking amazing that I get to do
what I do and get the connections I get with
people. So that's the real goal is to keep that
going. So I guess the real goal is to keep the
bottom in shape so I can keep doing that. Man,
you say that. I feel the exact same way about
this podcast and sitting down with all these
amazing people. Yeah, it's the verbal version
of what I've been describing. Yeah. It's actually
really validating to sit here and talk to you
about it all. I feel the same way. You're definitely
a kindred spirit, man. I feel like we could talk
all day, but I feel like... People are going
to get bored. So I'm going to let you go here.
Is there anything you want to plug? Anything
you want to mention? Anything that you've got
coming up that people can pay attention to? I
know you found some copies of a book. I don't
know if they're all gone already. Yeah, we did.
We did our unearthed 50 copies of Athens Potluck.
I think we're down to 45 copies now of Athens
Potluck. So those are available at deedspublishing
.com. It's your name. And it will be the last
50, and then it's out of print. As far as plugging
stuff, I just finished two and a half years of
massive effort, and I've done them as of two
days ago. So there's nothing new coming out.
The last two and a half years have been fucking
nuts of activities and shows and books. The gallery's
taking a hiatus. I'm taking a big break to just
focus on making new pictures and trying to get
that book done. But yeah, that's literally it.
This is the last thing on the calendar, right?
I'm glad that you get to have some time to breathe
because it sounds like you need it. Yeah, it
looks like it too, probably. You look great,
man. It's been nuts. Last year was the busiest
year of my life, and we thought this year I was
going to take off, and then we had four exhibitions
in the gallery, including my better princess,
and then I ended up doing two talks in the last
month, and it's hot. We're done. I need a break.
Thanks for being here, Jason. Thanks for having
me. I'll have links to where people can buy your
book and prints and all the things. Yeah, I'm
going to say check out, follow my Instagram and
see what I'm working on. What would you say to
somebody out there that wants to do photography
but feels it's so flooded? I think the story
aspect that you were talking about earlier is
really important, but is there anything else
that you'd say to a young photographer or aspiring
photographer? Yeah, figure out how to tell the
story. Find something personal. Make it personal.
Tell a story. Connect with people. As far as,
like, making a living doing it. I mean, that's
how any of that's going to go for any of us in
any field over the next five to ten years. Yeah.
It was. It was brave new world territory. I might
be documenting the end of the world right here.
Yeah. I hope you enjoyed my talk with Jason.
Man, I think that was something really I was
lucky to be part of. I really appreciated him
opening up to me. I haven't gotten the chance
to catch up with Francis yet, but... I'll be
at Flickr Bar on Tuesday, the 18th. And I think
we're going to catch up then. I hope all y 'all
come out in the Athens area. Come see some stand
-up comedy. I'll be there with Lanny Farmer.
Thanks for listening, y 'all. Hit that subscribe
button.