cool episode this week we got matthew dudley
he's a tattoo artist visual artist and uh long
friend of of mine and uh also he's a regular
on his brother's podcast what you've been watching
who released their 100th episode this week so
make sure you check that out i also uh want to
remind y 'all that you can pre -order sloan brothers
new There's a link in the description. They did
the theme song to this, so thanks a lot. Check
that out. The new single's awesome. I also want
to tell y 'all about some upcoming episodes we
got here. We got John Neff. We've got Jason Thrasher.
We've got Sam Lipkin. We've got Mary Joyce. And
we've got Jim Kimo West from Weird Al Yankovic's
band, the guitar player. and music programmer
he's also a grammy award -winning slack key guitar
player so uh we had a great talk i've got a bunch
of episodes coming for you to round out this
year so go ahead and hit that subscribe button
right now and without further ado here is my
interview with matthew dudley check it out i'm
here with matthew dudley hello he is a visual
artist of many mediums And also someone I've
known a super long time. We played on football
together. That's right. Yeah, your dad was our
coach. Yeah, that's how we met. That is true.
And that was like 35 years ago. Yep. But since
then, Matthew has blown my mind constantly with
the art that he makes. Thank you. And I'm really
excited to sit down and talk to you about it.
I'm going to ask a lot of questions that I genuinely
don't know the answer to. That's fair. Even though
I've known you a long time. Yep. But if I do
my job right, the audience won't know which ones
I do know and which ones I don't. So that'll
be great. But I'm going to start with a variation
of the question I ask pretty much everybody here.
And then we'll dive into it all. But what was...
Typically, just to give you a frame of reference,
when I interview musicians... I ask them what
the first song they remember loving as a child
was. Okay. And that might be an interesting answer
for you too. Let me answer that first. Yeah.
First song. I'll say baby stuff, Raffy and whatever
like that. Sure. I remember one of my first albums
that I got was The Wall. I'm a huge Floyd fan.
I fucking love Floyd. That album's a little too
much though. Long -winded, but Dark Side of the
Moon is my favorite record. Yeah. Yeah. And my
dad's a huge music guy, too. Yeah, I've seen
your dad at way more shows over the years. Yeah,
sure. But Animals is probably my go -to when
it comes to Floyd. Yeah. But that Live at Pompeii
thing is probably... They're mind -blowing, too.
Yeah, they really... And they knew it. Yeah.
They really knew it. Well, and also seeing them
over the years where they were doing the like
sunshine psychedelic thing and then they moved.
Oh, acid is real. And it changed their sound,
especially when Sid left. We got to cover a lot
of bases and do a different thing now. Yeah.
Yeah. And they at a certain point, they like
realized the kind of the power that they had.
I felt like in it. And I feel like they always
wielded that power for good. Yeah, I think so.
And I got into King Crimson recently -ish, and
they're amazing. Yeah, for sure. They're great.
I love... Oh, my brain isn't going to work today.
That's fine. Do you remember what it was that
first attracted you to Pink Floyd as a kid? I
hadn't heard anything like it. Yeah. It's really
one of those bands that you got to lay on your
floor, smoke a joint, and put some headphones
on. That's the only way to really get it. And
it'll really change. It sounds cliche, but it
really will change the way you listen to music.
It's true. And I wish people would just pop an
album on and listen to it all the way through,
rather than the Spotify playlist shit. You don't
learn anything from doing that. Sometimes you
do, but a lot of people listen to music, but
they don't know artists and they don't know anything
about it. And for me, it's really important to
go backwards and look at the history and stuff
like that. And I think songs can be, and usually,
especially when bands were recording albums,
those songs mean more in the context of the album
than they do on their own. And the time, yeah.
And drugs are a huge part of music, too. And
I hate it when bands stop doing drugs. I can't
listen to them anymore. As much as I think heroin
is probably a really horrible thing, Miles Davis.
I've been trying to get into jazz recently, and
I don't know anything about it. But I started
getting into it because a lot of modern bands
I like are jazz influenced. Like, I listen to
a lot of King Gizzard and Lizard Wizard. Hell
yeah, yeah. I like a lot of stuff like that where
it's improvisational. And I started working backwards.
And I listened to Bitches Brew a few years ago.
Fucking great album, all the way through. Yeah,
that record's incredible. Live Evil was another
one of my favorites of his. Okay. From around
the same time period, it's epic, man. It's really
good. And I know you're a Zappa fan, too. Big
time. Yeah. I don't really know his catalog super
well, but I appreciate what he does. I feel like
there's not very many people that can know his
catalog super well. He put out over 100 records
now. Before he died, I think it was over 100.
And now, I think another 60 or so after he's
passed. And now the vault's been open. It's just
the floodgates are kind of... crazy like they
settled all the family estate and everything
and stuff like that is what i'm really into not
only in music but in art be prolific make stuff
make bad stuff make good stuff make in between
stuff make stuff yeah make stuff and then throw
it in a fire i don't give a shit like yeah you
know yeah just make stuff whatever fuck it one
one thing i haven't heard you mention but i think
is interesting and i think it's particularly
interesting to me just because so many of the
bands that i love I got into this way was the
album art. And you haven't mentioned that, but
I'm sure that has played. Can you think of any
artists that you got into over the years? Because
the first thing that drew you was the album art
itself. Oh, man, that's hard. We already talked
about Floyd. Yeah. I'm a huge fan of the OCs.
And they have Face Stabber, which has a Frank
Frazetta painting on it. I was already familiar
with Frank Frazetta, but I like fantasy, medieval,
weird color, psychedelic. If you put that on
your album, I will probably buy it. Yeah. I got
into Blood Incantation recently, and I'm not
much of a metal guy, but their album art was
awesome. What are you going to do? Man, there's,
to me, there's not a single genre of music that
I don't find something I like in. I like this.
There's two kinds of music. There's good music
and bad music. That's it. And bad music is usually
just the stuff that I can ignore. Yeah. I'll
turn it off. Yeah. All right. So let's ask a
slight variation of that question. What was the
first artist, visual artist, that you remember
grabbing you as a kid? And did you start creating
art? like intentionally before that or was it
something that you like admired before you started
I think it was hand in hand it was me being influenced
by artists like I was already I don't remember
a time in my life when I wasn't drawing or doodling
I don't either yeah I can't think of it I remember
staying super late at night and getting in trouble
because I was drawing all night because I couldn't
my brain wouldn't stop And your brother and I
would be like up all night playing video games.
Yeah. And you'd have your sketch pad like on
the couch next to us a lot of the time. Yeah.
But just you'd be drawn and we'd be playing Mario.
And when I lock in, I am locked in. I find it
hard to eat, drink, anything. Like I am in it.
That's my focus. But I'm a huge Final Fantasy
guy. I grew up playing old school Final Fantasies.
And Yoshitaka Amano blew my mind when I saw his
artwork. And I started replicating that. I actually
brought. a rip off of his with me. Like when
you think about bands, like the first thing you
do, musicians, like the first thing you do is
you learn how to play other people's songs. Yes.
Yeah, exactly. And I think that's actually really
important to being an artist or a musician or
whatever is people are so precious about this
idea of tracing or copying and being original.
Your mother's a tracer. Yeah. The reality is,
that's funny. The reality is it's okay. It's
fine. Da Vinci fucking traced. He used a camera
obscura. He projected an image and then traced
people. That's history, okay? It's okay to trace.
It's fine. How else are you going to get, like,
knees? Some people are really observant, but
even learning how to paint from observation,
a lot of times you spend time tracing things
to make sure they're right also. I mean, everyone
has different methods, but go trace. It's fine.
I love that... video game and I remember you
being really into final like I remember when
I think Final Fantasy 7 or 8 came out playing
a currently yeah right now and I remember when
it came out and you like that's all you were
doing for a while and then the online one came
out 11 and 14 yeah but it was 11 is the one I
remember because I think we were in like middle
school or maybe you were in high school by then
yeah I was in high school by the time but I was
still in middle school and I just remember that
was like anytime I'd be at your house, like that's
what you would be doing. I failed many classes
because. But I think it's really interesting
that a video game or a video game artist was
one of the first things that really drew you
in. I talk a lot about how music games have changed
the kinds of music that I like because I'm not
like a club guy. Sure. But you put that same
song in Beat Saber and I get it. I'm like, oh,
this is awesome. Yeah. Yeah. And video games
and music, it's changed over time. The things
that they were able to do back in the day was
very limited. They didn't have like sound cards
and all that stuff. And basically the PlayStation
and forward, the sound cards got good enough
where they could do full orchestras now. And
that changed it. And Final Fantasy always had
really incredible music, too. Yeah, that's Nubuo
Matsu. Really good. Big fan of his. So at what
point did you start emulating that art? I think
right away, man. Because here's a funny story.
I remember in elementary school, like first or
second grade or something, people found out that
I could draw. And they said, oh, this guy can
draw fucking Ninja Turtles. Really? what if you
guys did a competition i was like yeah i'll fuck
him up so i drew michelangelo and it was badass
and we both bet a cookie on it okay and we had
a judge or whatever and the other guy drew a
little mushroom head ninja turtle with little
stick hands and legs and the judge gave it to
him instead of me who drew a badass michelangelo
it looked more like michelangelo i was like fuck
you and i ate my cookie hell yeah yeah i knew
what i had though Yeah, for sure. So I know you
worked like a lot of kind of like traditional
jobs over the years, too, or really, maybe really
one. I had a few, but there was one main one.
Yeah, I worked at a grocery store. And that's
not the case anymore, though, right? Yeah, I
quit five years ago, retired entirely. And you're
a full time artist. That's what I do. And at
what point? did you realize that you were going
to be able to do that? And I'm jumping ahead
a lot here and we'll fill in the gaps over the
next little bit. But I didn't, to be honest,
I didn't, I just jumped. I was going to therapy.
I was like super stressed out because I was working
my ass off. And what I really wanted to do was
draw. I went to art school for it. I paid my
way cash money through art school and I came
out and I was doing the same shit I was before.
I was working retail at a grocery store, and
I was going to a therapist, and I told him what
I wanted to do, and he said, okay, do it. And
that's all I needed. It was almost like you just
needed someone to give you permission. Yeah,
exactly. And I could have done that myself. I
could have. Give yourself permission. It's okay.
That's why we pay therapists, too, right? They
don't give you advice. No. That's not their job.
No. They ask you what you want, and then they
tell you to go do it, unless what you want is
really dumb. yeah that's the problem with getting
therapy from chat gpt right like because they're
not humans and they don't understand the human
condition at all and they're just it's just like
constant they're like a constant yes man yeah
yeah but it was nice to have a yes man in my
life in that moment and i think the paradox of
being like a real artist is never really knowing
or fully believing necessarily that like you
might know that what you're doing is good but
like knowing that other people are going to see
that is not necessary and you like even it sounds
like even from a young age like you experienced
the fact that you knew what you had was like
yeah special yeah it's getting other but the
other people were like fuck that i want the thing
is if you believe in you and whether you do or
not pursue what you want do it do it no matter
what people say it doesn't fucking matter What
happens? Oh, you made something dumb or awesome
and no one sees it. So what? Fuck it. Go make
stuff. And you really highlighted something that
J. Roddy Walston said on the first interview
I did on this podcast was like, if you have something
like this that you want to do, whether it's art
or music or comedy or whatever, don't give yourself
a backup plan. Yes, that's true. Because you're
going to do that. And it sounds like that's how
you did it. It was like you gave up on your backup.
You abandoned the backup plan or the safe option.
And I hated the safe option. It wasn't for me.
It was fine. It paid me some money that I could
pay my bills. But you can make it happen if you
want it to. Yeah. You have to make it so you
have to make it happen. Exactly. Give yourself
no other option. So let's go back. Then you start
emulating a lot of the art that you're seeing
in Final Fantasy and... Dragon Quest, Akira Toriyama,
Dragon Ball Z was huge when I was a kid. I drew
that stuff for shits and gigs just to learn how
to do it. And do you remember, there may not
have been like a particularly... turning point,
but do you remember like when you started to
develop your own style? I don't think I have.
I really don't. I don't think anyone has their
own style that they're aware of. I could be wrong
about that. I think that you, because you know
so much about you and what influences you, whether
you're, you think that whatever you're doing
is influenced by this person and therefore it
is not unique, but it is. It's because it's put
through the filter of you. Exactly. And I don't
think I have a style. I'm pretty sure it exists.
Sure. No, I see what you're saying. I think it's
interesting to think about because I think...
You're too close to your own art to really make
that statement. Yeah, you're making a very constructivist
kind of argument. A lot of times when artists...
that I don't like that I think are hack fraud
dickheads. And they start talking about... Start
naming names. Damien Hirst, I can't stand. They're
hack frauds because they come off insincere and
they talk about their work. Especially if you're
like, oh, my work is influenced by this and this.
Your audience is there comparing you to those
things. And you're shooting yourself in the foot
by doing that. You don't need to tell people
how the sausage is made. It's okay. Agreed. Agreed.
That being said, tell us more about how the sausage
is made. Where do you want to start? How about
that? I think what I'm getting at, and this is
a really... You've seen Adaptation with Nicolas
Cage? Yeah, I actually hate that movie. Sure.
I took a date to it, and she was having a terrible
time, and therefore I was having a terrible time,
and we left in the middle of it. It gets weirder
halfway through. It almost becomes his brother's
movie. The point I'm making is it's a very constructivist
account of making a movie. It's like you cannot
remove the artist from the art. And love or hate
the movie, I think it does do that well. Sure,
and Nick Cage is good in it, so is Meryl Streep.
Yeah, yeah. It didn't work for me personally.
I was bored out of my mind. I can relate to that.
I feel like the first time I saw it, I was cool.
every time I've tried to rewatch it, I was like,
I've seen this. I get it. Yeah. And like, I watch
a lot of movies. I like garbage. I like really
terrible, horrible crap. Adaptation just didn't
work for me. Yeah. That's all. Yeah. But I think,
and the only reason I brought it up is because
I think it gives a really, it paints a really
good picture of what constructive, like a constructivist
account of an art piece can be. And it sounds
like you're, You really have a very similar perspective
where it's, I might, but almost like to this
extreme point where it almost has the reverse
effect. It's like, you're so acknowledging your
influences that it becomes your own thing. Oh
yeah. And you're still not removing yourself
from the equation at all. In fact, you're the
crucial part of the equation. Yep. Yep. Exactly.
You got it. What point did you feel like, okay,
let me reframe this. What happens when you don't
draw for an extended period of time? Have you
ever had a period of time where that's... Oh,
yeah, sure. Rest is really important. And if
you feel burnout, take some time. It's okay.
But at some point, especially when it's your
job and you have to make money, you just got
to do the work. You got to go into work. Like
I'm a tattooer now. You don't get to do... Fun
stuff every day. Sometimes it's just slapping
names on people. It pays the bills. Yeah. It's
okay. Yeah. What about, so you talked about this
kind of like almost a compulsion to create. Oh,
yeah. What happens on that side of things when
you're not, when you're, can you tell when you're
like done resting? No, not really. Because when
I am resting, my brain is constantly like, oh,
you should be drawing right now. You should be
doing this. What should we do? And I start to
spiral. And I play a lot of video games that
are really monotonous because I don't have to
think about stuff. I can just hit X for 70 hours
straight. I play a really grindy kind of stuff
because I can let my brain wander and do different
stuff while I'm hitting X. And that's important
to me. And I think that is really important to
people that if you have... an art block or a
writing block or something like that, go take
a really long walk. It almost sounds like you
get into almost like a meditative state. Oh,
yeah. Well, and meditation is really important,
too, to be honest. It's a way to center yourself
and just be quiet. It sounds like you've done
a lot of different things to keep yourself balanced.
And it sounds like a lot of it's very intentional.
I think it's more... Yeah, it's intentional because
I... trained myself for that but now it's more
just what i do yeah yeah it starts intentional
and it just becomes habit yeah exactly but you
built those habits intentionally and is there
was there something like where did that like
the desire to to create those routines and in
and integrate these like well -being balance
i had a weird childhood and i think it was just
survival to be real Yeah, yeah. I think there's
a reason you see a lot of artists and musicians
and stuff come from weird family dynamics. Yeah,
most of the people I've talked to, and it's not
universal. No. But what I will say is universal
is whether it's an external family dynamic or
an internal anxiety or turmoil, I think there
is a universal kind of like pain. Yeah, and I...
hate the idea of the starving artists and the
traumatic artists the tortured artists yeah because
no it's not true but at the same time the people
that aren't torture are like nepo baby artists
that just bought their way into a gallery yeah
all the times and yet again it comes off super
insincere every time and you can also see it
with artists who start in a certain like a certain
amount of struggle and then gain a certain amount
of success right like eminem's first two records
and like currently people love to put basquiat
on this pedestal and it was a time and place
he found a rich ass white man to help him out
but he was a fucking heroin addict that drew
stuff and we don't need to put his life on a
pedestal he was really important to the community
that he was connected with you random ass rich
white dude fucking get off basquiat's dick i'm
telling you get off his dick i'm fucking sick
of it But who am I? Whatever. But I also think
there's this dynamic that exists where the torture
part, the torment, the fire, whatever you want
to call it, the darkness. Sure. The thing that
drives it is what makes it authentic. Yes. And
that's what makes these Nepo babies. Like, so
it's so obvious when Baird just, oh, I went to
this thing and I like. Okay, so recently Adrian
Brody, he was in the news because he sold a painting
for $350 ,000 or something. And it's terrible.
It's a horrible painting. And it only costs that
much because he's connected to it. If you want
to look at a good example of somebody like that,
Dennis Hopper. Yeah. Because when he started
doing the gallery scene and selling his photographs,
he didn't connect his name to it. Nobody knew
who he was. And they figured it out over time
because... Good old King Koopa, right? Yeah,
King Koopa. And also, he was in Waterworld as
well. But he was selling behind -the -scenes
photos from a lot of the movies that he worked
on. Didn't put his name on it. People didn't
know who he was. And so he got recognition from
that side of it. I think he used a pseudonym.
I don't really remember. But people recognized
him for his talent and what he was doing behind
the scenes without being, I'm a Hollywood actor.
Come buy my art. Don't do that. And the other
thing about the artists that don't have to struggle.
Yeah. Because I think there's no way to get rid
of their backup plan. They don't need a backup
plan. Right. Their backup plan is like... They
could do nothing. They could do no movies or
TV at all ever and sit there and count their
money for the rest of their life. They don't
have to do this stuff. I don't understand what...
Go make something. Put it in your house. You
don't have to sell it to the world. I have a
couple of paintings. I'm terrible, but I have
a couple of paintings I did over there in the
corner. They're just up because they're mine.
And there's something I made. Things don't have
to be commoditized and monetized and given to
the world. You can have things for you. It's
okay. And make stuff for you and then sell it.
Do whatever. I think you'll find more passion
when you're not worried about your audience and
what they want. And when you're truly doing something
that you want to do, either people get it or
they don't. And that's the ironic thing is once
you stop trying to be marketable, you suddenly
become way more marketable than you've ever been.
Yep. Because it's authentic. Yeah, exactly. And
that's true whether it's music or comedy or painting
or whatever the fuck. Any good comedian, the
advice that they got that changed everything
for them was like, Stop trying to be anybody
else. Yeah. And just be yourself. Yeah. That's
good advice. Because it doesn't work when you're
trying to be something else. When I worked in
retail, I hated it. I started when I was 15.
I hated it. And they kept giving me shit. Like,
oh, you're not being personable enough. And I
ended up coming up with a character, the retail
character. I'm going to be the best employee
and I'm going to annoy the shit out of them.
And they loved it. And they kept giving me more
and more money. The thing is, it killed my soul.
I hated every second of it. It is totally fake
every second. And I did that for almost 20 years.
If you want the rehearsal with Nathan Fielder,
I would encourage you to check it out. And the
reason I mentioned it is like this last season,
he's exploring like airline safety, pilot safety.
Oh, okay. But he finds that one of the biggest
problem, like the biggest contributing factor
to crashes is like pilot and co -pilot communication.
Okay. And like the power dynamics between them.
Okay. And so he eventually comes up with this
thing where they basically are like, okay, you're
going to play this character while you're in
the pilot and you're going to play this character
while you're the co -pilot. And it's the reverse
of what you're talking about where it's, this
is not a soul sucking experience. This is like.
a way to like kind of balance the power structure.
So we're like, if the co -pilot sees a problem,
they're not afraid to like speak up to the pilot.
Who's usually their senior. Okay. But this actually
worked. Okay. And while this particular character
may have sucked your soul, it also worked in
the, in the, and it changed my brain because
you do something enough. You fake happy enough.
and it does change your brain so fake it till
you make it worked take it seriously but yes
yeah you have to and you have to if you like
are in the gallery scene or something like that
and you're like really downtrodden and you don't
really like your art people are going to pick
up on that yeah and they're not why would they
buy your art if you don't like it yeah i i have
never told a joke and had to be like y 'all think
that was fun I knew it was funny if it didn't
connect and I just needed to rework. It's like
a word order thing. I would never tell a joke
on stage where I didn't know that the core of
it was fucking hilarious. Sure. If it doesn't
connect, that's a different story. That's a different
issue. But if I'm not conveying that. Sometimes
it's where you can't tell southern jokes in the
north unless you're punching down at the south.
Or a bunch of different dynamics. Let me ask
you. So when you do comedy, do you have a character?
Is it just a heightened version of yourself or
is it like this performance? No, I think. It's
just you? I think if anything, it might be the
most authentic version of myself. Okay. Like
I admit, I've admitted things on stage that I
don't think I could admit in a regular conversation
without being looked at as fucking weird. Okay.
But like the context of being. oh the point of
this is to tell a joke i can share certain things
like and i'm not like talking about like confessing
crimes or anything like that other than like
drug use i guess but i i do think that like that
and this is where i similar to like you drawing
a ninja turtle i haven't been doing stand -up
that couple of years now but i knew the first
time i got on stage it was for you and it was
working yeah yeah and i'm not saying i've never
bombed because i yeah of course but i definitely
didn't bomb my first time up sure and part of
it was i've done so many different things in
my life over the years leading up to this that
can true like i don't feel dave chappelle got
on stage at 14 and killed and he's just been
that's what he's always been sure whereas i feel
like i just did a lot of shit in my life that
removed a lot of the obstacles that a lot of
comedians have to go through experience the first
few years right where they're finding their voice
they're getting used to like public speaking
or whatever like all these things that and so
I got up there and I felt almost like I felt
like I was myself for the first time okay yeah
and that was how I knew oh this is I started
identifying as a comedian like after doing three
open mics because I was like I'm this is what
I am okay like I Fortune Feimster, she said on
the Blocks podcast with Neil Brennan, he asked
her, do you identify as gay or as a comedian
first? And without any hesitation, she was like,
I identify as a comedian first. And I think that's
what happened. The moment I got a taste of it,
I was like, oh, I've found this part of myself
that allows me to be myself. And I feel like
that's probably what happens. in a way to like
most artists once they when it when things start
clicking for them um yeah and even after it clicks
you can still struggle and you just gotta keep
keep your head on keep working there's always
another cave exactly every cave isn't yeah it's
just inside another cave yeah i don't know what
that means but i get it the allegory just like
every time you leave the cave you're really you're
just in another cave with a new set of shadows
and Eventually you'll leave that cave and things
will get a little bit more clear, but always
another cave. And when I found tattooing, because
I did the studio art thing, I got a degree in
that. I worked in a museum for a while and I
almost went into museum studies. That's what
I did. Did you? Yeah. And I realized it was too
stuffy for me. Yeah. I came at it, I was like
the only, I'm a historian of science. Oh, okay.
I have an art history degree. And I was the only
person in there that wasn't an art historian
or an information science major. I was the only
historian of science. But it was cool. A lot
more after me went into it. Like four or five
other people from my program ended up doing it
just in the following years. That's cool. And
like one of them works at a science museum up
in North Carolina. That's cool. I worked at the
museum in Gadsden, the Gadsden Art Center. Yeah.
I was an intern there for six months. Really
crazy because it's a tiny museum, but we had
a Salvador Dali. We had a Picasso at a time.
I'm a huge fan of, do you know the Florida Highwaymen?
Yeah, of course. We did a whole show of that
and I handled all of it. I actually did a show
of reproductions on canvas. This state capital
has a dozen or so original paintings that they
commissioned for a calendar. Okay. Back 80s or
90s. Okay. And I commissioned, like, I had to
do a thing at the Florida State Fair, and I reproduced
all 12 of them, printed them on canvas, and did
another. It's the only other place that they're
on display anywhere. He's at the Florida State
Fair down in Tampa. That's cool. And they're
reproductions, but I printed them on canvas,
really nice. And the originals are in the state
capitol. You can go see them. That's cool. Yeah,
big fan of the Highwaymen, for sure. Fuck yeah.
And what's interesting about them, and like Bob
Ross, Bob Ross is from St. Augustine era originally.
That style of painting comes from German romance
paintings. Caspar Friedrich, who's one of my
favorite landscape painters. And so basically
Germans came over and brought this style of painting
with them. And then in the 60s, 70s, 80s, the
Florida Highwaymen, which were a group of black
painters that were training each other. Yeah,
they were all self -taught. They were self -taught
and really fucking good. Yeah, incredible. They
would throw all their paintings in the back of
a truck and go down the highway and sell their
paintings to randoms. That's why they're the
Highwaymen. They were so prolific. And there
was like a dozen of them or something. Yeah.
But when I worked in the museum, I had to like
find a bunch of paintings and we were trying
to get an original Alfred Hare. So I had to call
the Alfred Hare Museum in St. Augustine. And
we had to try to get them. Never heard back.
Oh, wow. But we had a bunch of other ones. It
was great. The Florida History Museum has a pretty
nice collection. And they did a... I actually
feel like several of them are on display. It's
closed right now. My dad actually has a few highwaymen.
Oh, nice. Yeah, I'm going to go steal them from
him. Yeah, yeah. He's not using them. If you
need a pair of gloved hands, I've got my archivist
gloves in the back. Cut them out of the frame.
I would never do that. So at what point did you
start commodifying? I know that not everything
has to be commodified. That's your philosophy.
But you also acknowledge that you got to eat.
Yep. At what point were you able to start commodifying
your art and start making money from it? And
you start to see, oh, maybe I could. Honestly,
when I started tattooing. Yeah. It's a trade.
It's a trade. And you can be an artist and a
tattooer. I view them as, I would say, separate.
There's a crossover. There's a Venn diagram where
they cross over. Just because you're an artist
and a good artist doesn't mean you're going to
be a good tattooer. It is a people business.
I've seen that shit. You have to deal with people
with crazy ideas and you have to know what you
can do and what you can't do. And sometimes you
got to pay your bills. And that's that. I have
a style that I like. I like to do like American
traditional and Japanese traditional. I do a
lot of fine line stuff. But if you go on my Instagram
page, you'll never see realism. And every other
day, somebody's like, oh, I want this realism.
Bro, where do you see? Yeah. It's like, I'm not
the artist for you. Yeah. And so basically, I
just try to be like, yeah, this isn't really
my style. If you want to do this sort of thing,
here's some artists you can go to that do that.
Yeah, for sure. And it's a people business. What
tools do you use to understand your own limitations
when it comes to that sort of thing? Because
it's not, how do you even practice? There's like
fake skin and stuff like that. It's not the same
as real skin. I practiced on myself. I tattooed
my older brother and they're horrible. Please
don't ask to see them. They're terrible. They're
like some of my first tattoos ever. I didn't
know what I was doing. My mentor wasn't very
involved in my apprenticeship. So it was me just
learning on the fly. And shout out to your two
older brothers. Oh yeah, Michael. Your sandwich.
Yeah. The bread of the Dudley sandwich on the
What You Been Watching podcast. Yeah, that's
right. I've been on a few times. I usually just
go in and shit on them, whatever they like. I
found that's my place on their podcast. Yeah,
but I just want to give them a shout out. Check
out. They've been doing it a long time and it's
really awesome. And for me, it's not a podcast.
I just go in and I shoot the shit with them.
To be honest, that's exactly what I'm kind of
like. I feel like I'm having an intentional conversation,
but I'm still just having a conversation with
people on here. And they are too. They're talking
about a particular movie or show or whatever.
We have very different tastes in movies. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. If you haven't picked up on that.
For sure. No, one thing I've always found about
all three of y 'all is that... Different people?
No, but... Yeah, obviously. No, but I relate
to all three of you in, like, different ways.
In different ways, yeah. And so... Marcus and
I have always were the closest in age and we've
always been like the closest but I've also always
loved all three of y 'all and always had like
different little connections with each one of
you where it was like but they were pretty unique
yeah where it wasn't where like all four of us
were gonna go do something together pretty talk
about something together or even usually like
birthday parties and get to go yeah families
were friends too and it's just but Each one of
you, I have these threads where it's, oh, yeah.
Me and Marcus connect on this, and me and Matt
connect on this. When you're somebody that has
varied tastes and stuff, it's easy to do that.
You can find a common thread anywhere. So when
I tattoo people, one of the first questions I
ask is, what kind of music do you like? Because
it's a commonality for 99 % of people, and one
week I had three or four different people say,
I don't really like music. I was like, get the
fuck out of my chair. It was insane. What a psychopath.
I don't understand. They said, I listen to podcasts.
Like, oh, you're a psychopath. Yeah, I don't
get it when people say that. Insane. I understand
if people aren't super active in trying to find
stuff. Like, they maybe just listen to what's
on the radio or whatever. I get it. Not everybody
has got the hyper -focused special interest.
But people that are just like, oh, no, music
just doesn't do anything for me. Insane. I'm
like, are you? I feel like that's like a fundamental
part of being human. I agree. I agree. I agree.
Absolutely. This is why ChatGPT and AI -created
music and art isn't art. Not to rant about, but
it's true. It's stolen artwork. And even though
I said, go trace, they're not tracing. They're
not making anything new. They're not a person.
Art, music, all that stuff are human commonalities.
And there's no reality where a computer can create
something. Well, it's removing... Even without
trying to take sides on anything about it, just
to be consistent with your view of art, AI removes
what you view as the essential component of...
If you just pump all of your influences into
an algorithm, it's not... break i honestly i
think i'm so over all over the place i just gonna
be like what is it this no what did what does
the process of going from like being paper artist
canvas artist to a skin artist what is that like
what is that process like like let's say somebody
out there really wants to do this what would
what are the steps to do it responsibly in the
right way Oh man, this is going to get me some
hate. This is the reality. Go get an apprenticeship
at a shitty shop that hates you and abuses you.
And I'm not saying that you have to suffer through
the abuse. I'm just saying it's a commonality
in the industry that the only people that take
apprentices are dickheads. And a lot of people,
they encounter that for the first time where
they're doing their apprenticeships. Oh, my mentor's
a dickhead. Yeah. Yes. Should you suffer through
that? Learn as much as you can and then get out
of there. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with it.
It's serious business too, man. You're putting
things on people that are going to be there for
the rest of their life. Yeah. And you have to
have a thick skin because if you can't deal with
their mentor giving you shit, and I'm not saying
that they should like literally abuse you or
anything. They're dickheads though. So is the
general public. Yeah. It's almost like a trial
by fire. Oh, and I'm sure you know that from
comedy. You got to get up there and bomb. And
if you're the kind of person that says you've
never done a bad tattoo, you're lying. you're
absolutely lying. You're full of shit. Yeah.
If I had said I'd never bombed, everybody would
know that I was full of shit. Exactly. Exactly.
And that's the reality. I think that's really
good advice because there are certain professions
where you have to develop a thick skin. Yeah.
And not every training program prepares you for
that. Like I was saying earlier, I very commonly,
very often get people that are trying to enter
into the tattoo industry and, oh, I went to art
school. I'm a good artist. Yeah, you're a good
artist. You should have no problem finding a
shitty apprenticeship. And that's the truth.
And a lot of people want to skip to the end where
they're fully developed. Part of the work is
getting shit on. I hate to tell you that's the
truth. I don't think you should have to suffer
that. That's just the industry. I'm sorry. I
think most comedians would say a similar thing
about like, road work like going putting your
stuff in front of different groups getting it
shit all over yeah learning like what works and
what doesn't organically yeah as opposed to like
sitting in your room with your sketch pad and
then all of a sudden i'm gonna go tattoo people
like sitting in my room writing my jokes and
then all of a sudden i'm gonna go record an hour
yeah that doesn't happen yeah yeah it doesn't
The same thing's true. I used to DJ back in the
day. I started when I was 17. I did like weddings
and house parties and events and stuff like that.
And I was a bedroom DJ before that. And you're
like, oh, this is going to work great. And then
you get out there and it doesn't work. You put
two songs together that you think are going to
be bangers and no one reacts. That's the ultimate
like feedback, immediate feedback, like almost
as immediate or more so than comedy where it's.
If they're not shaking their ass on the dance
floor, it's not working. If they're not laughing,
it's not working. Exactly. What's the metric
for that with visual art? That's the anomalous
part. Yeah. I don't know. You actually are making
me rethink something that I've talked about before
on here, where I've said that comedy is pretty
unique in terms of it's subjective. but there's
an objective response that's involuntary. And
dancing, I think, is less involuntary than laughter.
What do you mean? You can stop yourself from
dancing a lot easier. I cannot, but that's okay.
And I'm with you there, but I think... If you
ever see me out, if there's a song that you can
dance to, I will be shaking my ass. Sure, but
the point I'm making, though, is... As a comedian,
if you make somebody laugh at something they
think they shouldn't laugh at, that's the ultimate
victory, right? Oh, yeah, sure. And that's like
a forced, involuntary response. It's weird. You're
forcing a response on the audience that's not
really their choice sometimes. And with dancing,
it might be unique for people like me and you
where I hear a song like, at least my toe is
going to be tapping or something. But some people
just... They just don't dance. And no matter
how much somebody says, I'm not going to laugh
at a comedy show, you can break through that.
The right comedian can, yes. I don't know that
you can break through that as a DJ to somebody
that says, I'm not going to dance tonight. That's,
I guess, that's the dynamic that it's a little
less involuntary. Yeah, and the reality is some
people are there to dance and some people are
there to hang out. Yeah, yeah, sure. If your
goal is to make people shake their fucking booties,
play to them. Play to your audience. And it's
the same with visual art and comedy. If some
asshole in the back is like, this guy's not funny.
I'm going to sit here and eat 25 wings and not
crack a smile. There's somebody in the front
row that's having a great time. Sure. I guess
the point. So I think there's this spectrum that
we've tapped into here. Where visual art. We'll
just say visual art for the sake of this conversation.
Just get back on topic. Visual art's on one end.
Comedy's kind of on the other. DJing is somewhere
in the middle. I agree. The response that you're
trying to evoke from the audience is so much
more autonomous when it comes to visual art.
And it slowly becomes less autonomous. You get
into DJing. You're going to get some people to
shake their ass even if they're maybe in a bad
mood when they get there. But with comedy, the
other end of the spectrum, you can make the dude
that's going to sit there and eat 25 wings and
not crack a smile, if you make the right joke,
you're going to make him laugh because laughter
is an involuntary response in a way that dancing
isn't or admiration isn't. And some people aren't
active listeners, active viewers, so that guy
isn't even fucking listening to you. He's probably
not going to laugh. Sure, sure. And that's the
difference between doing comedy in a bar and
a comedy club. Yes, that's true. So I did the
gallery scene in town for a while, and you put
yourself out there, and you have to be there
because you are doing the same thing where you're
judging reactions, right? So I'd be standing
there, and somebody would come up to their friend,
and they're like, oh, man, fuck. It's like they're
not reacting the way that I wanted them to. It
is what it is. And that's part of it. It doesn't
work for everybody. And when you put yourself
out there, it's a numbers game. So how long were
you an apprentice? What's the path here for you
in terms of time frame from, okay, I've found
a way to commodify my art in a trade. I'm starting
an apprenticeship, whatever. to now you're a
full -time artist what was that time frame what
was that what did that road look like for you
oh i to be honest it was survival again i you
work in a shop and you try to take on stuff that
you are confident in and you i did lettering
for basically almost two years almost exclusively
lettering and like really simple pinterest tattoos
it was just a Get as much time in skin as possible.
And a lot of people, they get annoyed by Pinterest
tattoos or slot names on people. It's actually
really important to the process of because there
is a person on the other end of it. And you are
trying to do like high art and you don't know
how to put it in skin. You're going to fuck them
up. They're going to have a bad time. They're
going to have a bad time. And you're going to
lose clients before you get it. I love looking
at bad tattoos. Oh, yeah. It's one of my favorite.
i'm really into well done bad tattoos if that
makes sense yeah i'll show you a tattoo actually
we're like the art's good but the concept is
just it's like my favorite tattoos do you know
what sucky panther is i don't it's a really shitty
tattoo and so i got a chrome sucky panther it's
hilarious and well at least it's like somewhere
that nobody's looking at the back of your upper
calf it's fun and i show it to people like what
the fuck is that don't worry I think also you
get to a certain point where maybe you probably
have a lot of insight into this. What is the
difference in the mentality of a client who has
two or three tattoos and the mentality of a client
who has sleeves and is covered? I'm not even
talking like face tattoos, but just a heavily
tattooed individual versus somebody who just
has a few. runs the game. It's all over the place.
And just because you're heavily tattooed doesn't
mean that you're a good client or you know what
you're talking about. It happens a lot. Because
you could have a sleeve full of shitty tattoos.
And that could be your... Oh, I paid $80. Yeah,
I can tell. And then you get people with two
or three tattoos. They know exactly what they
want. I want this. Okay, I can do that. Fine.
Is it creative? No. You're easy to work with,
though. I want block lettering of this thing.
And a lot of people... They want a tattoo and
they spend so much time thinking about it that
they haven't bothered to actually talk to an
artist about their ideas. So they keep like editing
things. Oh, I want this thing to represent my
grandma with a lion with blue eyes and like a
clock to be like Memento Mori. It becomes a mural.
Yeah. It's like the lion clock rose. It's a trope
now. It's a joke for tattooers. I bet you want
a lion with a clock and a rose. oh yep there
it is you can tell the type too and we people
come in you're like oh i want this i knew you
wanted that before you even walked in the door
yeah tell yeah yeah i used to be the same way
at the record store like i could there were certain
people like i knew exactly what they were walking
in to buy based on just like what had come out
that week i was like oh i know like three of
the albums you're picking up yeah yep on the
kind of the thread of bad tattoos what are This
is a two -parter. What are some things that you
would never have to, whether you've encountered
them yet or not, you would never do it? And then
do you have a couple of things that you have
said no to that might be fun to share? Oh, yeah,
there's a bunch of things I say no to. I don't
really think I'm very good at realism as an artist.
Let me back up. And we can talk about your limitations
as an artist. That's not the question I'm asking
now. I'm asking, like... conceptually or if somebody
comes in with a terrible motif or an idea for
what would you refuse a client even if you thought
the artwork was within your realm you're just
like i'm not putting that on another person's
body obviously things like white supremacy shit
and all that like a lot of tattoo artists well
yeah i'm not gang related so every week like
this is a gang tattoo i have a web on my elbow
and as soon as i got it i heard somebody's like
hey do that in prison it's like They do everything
in prison. Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Are you
wearing a Chicago Bulls jersey? Oh, yeah. You
got blue on today? Yeah. So here's a funny story.
I've made clients cry before. I'm not surprised.
Because sometimes if you softball people, they'll
walk all over you. And sometimes you have to
have that hard line. I am absolutely not doing
that. You have to have hard boundaries in life,
period, I think, to be successful. And I think
people get excited. They're like, I'm getting
a tattoo. I'm like, no, you're not. Somebody
came in, I tattooed them before and they had
a crazy idea and they were being really mousy
and not describing what they wanted. And so I
was sitting there trying to figure out what they
wanted and I felt like I was putting words in
their mouth. And what they wanted wasn't, I couldn't
conceptualize it. And I sat there and I drew
it and they were like, oh yeah, that's it. I
was like, I'm not doing that. I sat there and
drew it on the spot and oh yeah, that's it. I
was like, absolutely not. This is the worst idea
I've ever heard. I told him it was strange. And
then the next day, I saw a Facebook post like,
this tattoo artist said my idea was strange.
I've never had a tattoo artist say that before.
This is your second tattoo. What do you mean
you've never had a tattoo artist say that before?
And I walked away from that. And my boss was
like, good on you for not taking. That was a
terrible idea. I was like, I know. And then they
went out and they paid $80 to some random dude
to do it. And it looked exactly how I thought
it would. Yeah. They were happy with it. And
that's fine, but you don't want your name attached
to that. Yeah, I do not. And just because somebody's
willing to give a back alley kidney transplant
doesn't mean you should be the one to perform
it. Some advice for people that are interested
in getting tattooed, limit your ideas. You get
two or three things in a tattoo. In a single
tattoo, you get two or three ideas. I've never
tried to put more than one idea into a tattoo.
Well, it can be loose. i don't know i was inspired
by american werewolf in london for this and i
told him that i wanted the banner from it and
he didn't draw that and it is bad better for
that yeah yeah it's badass so let artists cook
yeah going with an idea i say i want a wolf with
an axe through its face and like a banner and
then he doesn't draw the banner there's a reason
he didn't draw the banner because it's going
to cover up the badass wolf what's one of Will
you talk about one of the bad tattoos that you've
given? Yeah, I can. So a lot of times people
get excited about getting tattooed and that they
forget to check spelling. Yeah, yeah. So this
dude came in and he wanted some Spanish phrase
and I don't speak Spanish. I said, hey, and he
did fluently speak Spanish. I said, make sure
it's spelled right, blah, blah, blah. He's like,
oh, cool. So I tattooed it on him. And then an
hour later, he calls and says, it's spelled wrong.
What can we do about that? Nothing right now,
man. Man, I have a tattoo in Greek. And I went
to my classics professor and was like, give me
this. And I was like, and it's in all caps. So
it's not even like grammatic. It's not how it
would have been written. But it's what I wanted
and it's accurate based on what I wanted. And
that's what I went to me. And I was like, dude,
just he pulled up the font of Greek. That's cool.
And typed it out for me and printed it. And that's
what I took to the shop. Yeah. A lot of times
people come in and they want Japanese and they'll
go on Google Translate. And there'll be like
some biblical phrase or something like that.
That's no reality where it's going to translate.
And they'll type it into Google. And I'll put
it on. I want this. There's no way that's right.
And I try to advise them, go on Reddit, try to
find somebody that's can translate what you want
for you as close as possible, because I doubt
this says what you think it says. I want it.
OK, whatever. I do my due diligence. Yeah. Yeah.
You're like, I'm not a linguist. I'm not. That's
not. That's not my cards. So what are some of
the things that you would like if you could go
back and like. redo some stuff. What are some
lessons? Let me couch this a little differently.
What are some lessons that you've learned over
the years that have, that might help a new tattoo
artist or somebody or a new artist? Because I
think it is pretty rare to, not that there's
not a lot of tattoo artists out there, but I
think it's pretty rare for someone to just be
like, okay, this is what I have to do. I'm going
to do it and fuck all everything else. I think
there's a lot of people out there that have that
burning desire, but they don't know how to go
about it. The desire is the first step. That's
it. If you got that, take the leap of faith.
Put yourself out there. And like every other
day, there's a new apprentice. There's a new
tattooer in town. There's a new shop, which means
there's tons of opportunities for you to learn.
You're going to have to go out there, put yourself
out there and get shit on. It's okay. Other than
like a mentor. an apprenticeship situation where
you're getting, how have you made sure to not
surround yourself with yes people and like people
that will make sure to tell you when something
sucks, when something's a bad idea and maybe
not just in art, but in life. I think one of
the big problems that we're seeing with this
kind of arrogance, this like blissful, like intentional,
but like this. like arrogantly stupid arrogantly
ignorant mentality that we see in this country
is because people surround themselves with they
cut out all dissent all like anybody that tells
them that they're not doing a great job at everything
fuck you i'm done or oh we disagree about this
thing well we're not friends anymore like how
have you been able in this like climate that
we've been in the last 20 years, I feel, been
able to surround yourself with people that don't
always tell you that you're fucking amazing all
the time. To me personally, if you tell me I'm
amazing, I don't believe you. I don't. That's
a me problem. I'm my worst critic. And there's
nothing you can say to me that will hurt my feelings
more than I'm going to hurt my own feelings.
That's it. I think that's true for me too. I
think a lot of people that are passionate feel
that way. Some more than others. Don't let it
stop you, though. Just because you're your worst
critic doesn't mean that what you're making isn't
worth it. So it's almost like the opposite. It's
almost like you have to surround yourself with
people that encourage you. Yes. And I'm not in
a position where your support, thank you. Yeah,
yeah. I don't believe it, though. It's fake.
And yet again, that's a me issue. Yeah. Obviously,
you know that you have talent to the point where
you were able to be confident enough to quit
your job and dive in. You literally just needed
permission to do it, almost. Yeah, I actually
didn't think that I was... Worth it. I just I
knew it was something I wanted to do and when
you put the your position you're You put yourself
in the position where you have to do this thing
or else you're not gonna be able to eat What
choice do you have? Yeah What you have to do
this you have to figure it out. So over the years
like getting into tattooing have you found that
brought a boost to your like Your gallery sales
and things like that to know It was never successful
in gallery spaces. Part of it is because Tallahassee
just isn't the scene for that. A lot of people,
when they become artists, musicians, they move
to real cities like New York or L .A. or whatever.
And I guess in comedy, it's Austin now, too,
right? The thing about Austin is it has completely...
I don't think that I can say anything better
than Mark Maron has already said. Personally,
I think he hit the nail on the head. The left
annoyed the average American into fascism is
like what he said. But also the response to that
has been ruining comedy. Like, I think that anybody
can get away with saying pretty much anything
on stage if it's funny enough. I actually agree
with you on that. And this idea that, oh, we
can't like comedies. We can't say anything anymore.
That's bullshit. And you're being lazy. Yeah,
they're being lazy and they're just not funny
enough to say those things. I agree 100%. I think
if you look at some of Louis C .K.'s older material,
like before any of the scandal or anything, he
was a master at saying shit he shouldn't say
and making it objectively hilarious. Yeah, I
agree. And you look at people... And there's
some good comics out of the Austin scene. Don't
get me wrong. I like some of those guys. But
I think the overall philosophy there that we
have to be offensive to be funny or that... Punching
down. It's not even necessarily that. I think
the spirit in which they punch down most of the
time is not malicious. But it is lazy. It's lazy.
Yep. It is fucking lazy. Yeah. And... And most
of the time it's just like a rewording of a joke
that's been around for a hundred years. I identify
as an attack helicopter. How many times have
you heard that on stage? Yeah. Or just name the
racist trope or the sexist trope or the whatever.
Like it's just all been done, dude. Even if like
you put the like tastelessness aside, like none
of those jokes are original. Yes. That's what
it really comes down to. If you want to be able
to say certain things on stage, be fucking funnier.
Yeah, I agree. And I think that's true for...
Dude, look at a group like Kneecap. Okay. The
musical group out of the north of Ireland. Don't
get me wrong. They've had their share of political
persecution over the things they say. But their
music is fucking banging. And so, like, they're...
No matter what the persecution is, they're still
selling out arenas. Yeah. So just to shift topics
a little bit. So there's this huge, during cancel
culture or whatever, there's this huge push about
separating the art from the artists. And the
people that were saying that were dickhead artists
that were being canceled. Sure. Obviously not
everything you do that's like a little cringy
needs to be canceled or whatever. But on the
other hand, like I still listen to Michael Jackson.
Yeah. Because he makes good music. Right. He
made good music. There are certain alive people
that are absolute problems in the community.
I will not fuck with them. I won't buy anything
from them. Sure. I just don't want to support
their lifestyle. But at the same time, oh man,
I forgot where I was going with that. You were
talking about not wanting to mess with these
problematic artists, but in support of their
lifestyle. Separating the art from the artist.
I think it's something that problematic people
like to hide behind. Like when I don't, yes,
there is. You have to separate like Picasso from
his art. He is his art though. You can't really
separate him from his art. You can't do that.
You can do it mentally to do the backflips that
you need to do to consume his art. And Picasso
is fucking dead. So what do I fucking care? Like
he has an estate or whatever, but it's living
people. I'm not going to separate you from your
artwork. Yeah, I feel that. I like I think like
J .K. Rowling could be a good example. Yeah,
exactly. And I refuse to I'm not going to fuck
with you. I'm sorry. I go to Universal every
year. There's nothing I can do about Harry Potter
land. Sure. And she's a bajillionaire. So, yeah,
it's past the point of my control. But living
people without our fucking problems, stay away
from them. And you don't have to separate their
art from. the artist that's what they want you
to do so that you'll buy their art again but
i don't think that you i don't think that not
separating the art from the artist means that
you have to stop listening to that artist or
watching that artist or whatever too like i think
that there's this idea of sanitizing everything
to where yeah yep oh we're not going to consume
art from problematic people that's what happened
recently is a good example of that the politically
oh with Kimmel or whatever oh I meant Charlie
Kirk oh yeah I don't really want to talk about
it we can yeah yeah I don't we don't necessarily
but that's a good example is like no I will not
separate sure yeah right and like the idea that
you can't like talk truthfully about someone
just because they were like killed in a horrible
way yep is like that's yeah absurd yeah And that's
exactly what I'm getting at. You can acknowledge
that somebody was a great artist and a shitty
person and still appreciate their art and still
condemn them as a human being. Yes. And that
context matters. I think it's the only thing.
I think it's way more important than just pretending
they never existed or their art didn't matter.
It turns into Voldemort at some point where you
can't say their name because it gives them power
or something. That's dumb. I was talking to the
lead singer of a band called Czar, which was
a band that I loved as a teenager. And he was
raised in a pretty conservative Christian household.
And what he said was like, the condemnation of
rock and roll gave it this power that made it
attractive to him. It was like, why is this?
You mean like devil worship shit? Yeah. But it
was like, this is... I think you and I can recognize
the power of music. And then to have it through
this lens of Satanism makes it almost like supernatural.
Yeah. And so he's this kid. It's like the rock
and roll mythos. Right. You're doing more for
rock than you are by condemning it and calling
it like satanic or whatever. Yeah. You're pointing
out its power without. without really understanding
what it comes from but the other thing that happened
from the satanic i play a lot of dungeons and
dragons yeah yeah and it is a huge source of
my inspiration as like an artist as a human being
i fucking love it in fact i brought one of my
d and my idea let's before before we wrap this
up let's show let's dive in and show some of
your art so earlier we talked about before we
started rolling covid yeah that's right quarantine
and We were saying how a lot of people were having
the... They were locked in their house and they're
used to going to their day job and doing that
and they get depressed. It was hard on the normies,
man. Turned alcoholics or whatever. Yeah, the
normies did not cope. And because I have a studio
art background, I loved it. I locked myself in
my room and I painted all day, every day. So
when I was in school... Most artists of all kinds
except for comedians. but it's still a lot of
really got a lot out of it i mean that because
i was following a lot of music scene guy too
but there was a lot of artists that were streaming
their music and i talked to a couple of guys
that they didn't start making music or recording
their own music until covid oh cool because they're
working their house yeah yeah or like this one
guy who actually sloan who did the theme song
for the podcast he recorded live shows that's
what he would take Or recording gear, and that
was his thing. He would record live shows all
the time. Then when COVID hit, he was like, shit,
I don't have anything to record. What else are
you going to do? Yeah, so he started making records.
Yeah. When I was in school, everyone taught oil,
and I had no experience with oils. And I was
terrible at them, and I'd walk into class, like,
hey, is it cool if I watercolor? And some teachers
were cool with it, and some weren't. So when
COVID hit, I was like, I'm going to learn this
now. So I started watching Bob Ross, which sounds
funny, but I... Start with the basics. Yeah,
of course. And Bob, like we were talking about,
came from the St. Augustine area. But then he
moved to Alaska, so he does a lot of mountains.
And I'm from Florida. I don't know shit about
mountains. I don't know what they look like.
It's not day -to -day for me. So I took a lot
of Bob Ross lessons and applied them to landscapes
that I'm familiar with. And this is the influence
going through the filter of a human being that
we're talking about. Yeah, exactly. So I wrote
one of my oil paintings. Hell yeah. and if you
want to you can hold it up but what we'll do
is we'll also put like a i'll put like the actual
image that yeah there's the camera there and
and i'll put a scan of it over this but that'll
give me a good reference for which what thing
we're talking about i like mopey gray landscape
i also grew up surfing and i I used to surf hurricanes
and stuff like that, which, if you're not from
here, sounds crazy. Oh, no. It's very normal.
My friend Warren in grad school, like, he would
be, like, it'd be, like, October. He'd be pulling
up. He was our meteorologist, first of all. Like,
surfers are the most, like, accurate amateur
meteorologist I've ever known. Yep. And it's,
especially on the Gulf, dude, like. You have
to know when the shit's coming. Yeah. Because
like on a regular day, it's not really worth
it. So, yeah, I really took to painting. Surfing
hurricanes does sound fucking insane. It's not
like you're out like on. No, it's usually like
a couple of days before. Yeah. Or the hurricanes
way out there. Yeah. Throwing shit your way.
So you just go out and hit it. And I was like
12 or 13 or something the first time I did it.
And we were surfing 15 foot wave by ourselves.
That's wild. I think there's one other person
out there and it's a day like that. That's awesome.
And I just, I love scenery like that. Mostly
because I'm a mopey person. I enjoy that stuff.
I find solace in ugly sceneries. Yeah. But I'll
also point out like when you're talking about
your art, you light up in a way that like is
not, I think consistent with the rest of your
personality sometimes. Yeah, sure. Yeah. So during
COVID we started. dnding a lot and i started
putting a lot of time into writing and yeah i
wrote this by hand the hard way everything is
you can't none of this stuff exists in dnd books
everything is homebrewed everything is here and
basically me as a dm i have a philosophy i hate
too many rules i want to keep it moving fast
and furious and i hate getting bogged down and
my players are playing fifth edition I'm playing
the shit that I wrote. This is called The Tale
Upon Effects, The Green. I think you need to
let me know next time you have a spot in the
game open because that sounds like a fucking
blast. We're on hiatus right now just because
our group got split up and we're trying to get
it back together, which that's D &D for you.
Yeah, no, it is. In fact, I almost think COVID
made D &D a little bit easier. When people started
playing over streaming, everybody was available.
Had time on their hands. And I experienced a
similar thing with VR. Okay. I got into VR during
COVID. Okay. And that's actually not the first
place I performed stand up, but. Okay, cool.
I was watching like VR DJs and stuff like that.
Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't, I was an observer and
not like a participant or anything. I just find
it weird to hit the. There's a whole app. Click
off to dance or something. There's a whole app
that literally gives you like CDJs and everything.
It's interesting, man. It's called TribeXR. It's
a DJ app. I used to have one on my computer.
I forget what it's called. I can't remember,
but I had it forever ago and I used to do mixes
on it just to practice stuff on the fly. This,
you would literally, you could pick up a needle
in VR and move it. It's wild. Once you get used
to like the slight tactile difference, I almost,
I like professional DJs used it to train during
COVID and learned how to. And then once they
get out of VR, because it's all real equipment
in there, it translates one -to -one in the real
world. But stand -up was kind of similar. You
can hear people. You can see their body movement.
You can hear where the laughter is coming from,
even. You have spatial sound in everybody's mic.
And also, COVID made people realize that they're
being exploited. Yeah. They're working too hard.
You're allowed to have fun and do stuff for you.
So we play a lot of D &D. And the book that I
wrote is called The Tale of Pound Effects, The
Green. So earlier we were talking about Yoshitaka
Amano. So he did this. He illustrated for this
book in Japan called The Gwyn Saga. Okay. So
this is a ripoff of that. Sweet. And it's...
Sweet. And if you want to send me scans, I'll
put them up like full screen on this too. But
this gives me a good frame of reference for what
we're doing. I drew this for me. This wasn't
for anybody. It was just, I was having fun. And
this is one of my favorite paintings on the planet.
Some of my favorite jokes are things I'm not
sure I could ever tell. You could tell, right.
Or they're, like, too, maybe, like, too personal.
Not about me, but about, like, family members
or something like that. Oh, sure. And I wouldn't
want to, like, I wouldn't want to share them
with the public, but they're some of my best
jokes. Yeah. Yeah. But it's because it comes
from, like, this, like... point of this place
of truth yeah sure it's like it might be funny
but it's not for everybody yeah or it wouldn't
be fair to the person that it's about or something
like that like even if it's not punching down
on them it might just the premise might reveal
too much information about somebody or some feelings
don't really want to hurt matt this has been
awesome matthew do you actually i don't care
at all okay yeah you got to thinking i'm not
sure that i've ever been one or the other with
you either anyway. My parents always cared more
than I did. Yeah, yeah. Is there anything you
want to talk about or share before we wrap this
up, man? I feel like I know that you and I could
sit around and talk for hours because we've done
that before. But I don't want to cut it off without
something that you really wanted to talk about
here either. I don't know. I just brought some
artwork. I thought you might want to look at
it. Yeah, man. Let's go through it. And do you
have a website where people can... I don't have
a website anymore. I took it down because it
wasn't, like, doing anything for me. I'll get
there again. Yeah, yeah. So, I did this in school.
But people can find you on social media and reach
out. Yeah, my social media on Instagram is wolf
.mat .tattoos. And there'll be a link in the
description. So, yeah. So, I was reading a lot
of folklore and, like, fantasy and stuff like
that. And so, I was, like, illustrating. stories
like comic books. Yeah, yeah. So this is Fenrir
and Tyr. Pretty cool. This is one of my favorites
too. That's awesome. I have a huge thing for
wolves too. Yeah, yeah. Just really cool. And
I was really into mixed media, collage, watercolors.
These are like pages from Irish folktales. No,
this one's actually from Norse folktales. And
then, yeah, it's painted over. Pretty cool, right?
Yeah, that's really amazing. I know you don't
believe me. Yeah. And then I was doing the same
thing, but I was painting ladies. So this is,
I had this one actually in a gallery. It's called
Supernova, but it's from Isaac Asimov. Oh, nice.
So I just, I had a collection of Isaac Asimov
stories and just went to town. And I had this
idea of not illustrating the story at all. It
has nothing to do with anything. It's just influence.
I read the story, and then I started painting,
and that's it. There's definitely an influence
that I know you have that we haven't talked much
about, and that's comics. Oh, yes. So can you
just talk a little bit about when you got really
into it? What was it about comics that initially
drew you in when you were younger? It's literally
just the artwork. The writing honestly gets in
the way for me a lot of times, especially with
like modern comics where they kill somebody and
then they bring them back and then they kill
them. It drives me fucking crazy because it just
created or they refuse to pass the torch. That
really pisses me off, too. Let Miles Morales
be the new Spider -Man. Like, why is Peter Parker
still doing he retired, dude? Yeah, yeah. I was
just big into art in general, and I would stay
up flipping through comic books just for the
art, not even reading them. And replicating stuff
I saw. Spawn comics, stuff like that. Yeah. Were
you tracing them? Sometimes. Sometimes, yeah.
I keep referencing Chasing Amy, by the way. This
is what we keep... Which is actually a movie
that we watched as kids together. Which is probably
why I keep thinking of it. But there's a great
scene in there where one of them is inking and
one of them is drawing and it's a whole... This
is like a thing in the comic. Is this like a
real rivalry in comics? I don't think so. I think
a lot of pencillers know that they have to have
the inker. And the style of the inker determines
a lot of things. Because pencillers are loose.
So the ink brings everything together, creates
a cohesive style. Depth and shading. All sorts
of stuff. And whoever your inker is, you've got
to trust them. And a lot of pencillers don't.
And they ink it themselves. So if you were to
write a comic book, which would you consider
yourself? A penciler, an inker, or would you
just do it all? I think I would enjoy inking
more than penciling, to be honest. I've always
taken to inking and practiced at it a lot when
I was a kid. I think I'm okay at it. Nice. Drawing
a comic, there's a lot that goes into it, like
the flow of frames. When the frames don't work,
it's hard to read. Yeah. I'll be honest. It's
a medium that I've always struggled to follow.
It's difficult. I've always loved comic art.
And a lot of the comic book artists that I like
don't bother with classic story to comic book
stories. I'm a huge fan of David Mack, Bill Sienkiewicz,
Klaus Janssen, stuff like that, who don't really
rely on classic comic book frames. Yeah. That's
what I like. When you first got into comics,
did you even care about the story at all? not
really you were just looking at the art no it
was occasionally i would read a series the problem
is that they would disappoint me at some point
yeah i remember i was reading death of superman
and i was like yeah finally superman's dead and
we can move on with our lives and they started
introducing like super boy and man of steel and
all that stuff and then six months later two
blue what is a yellow and blue superman showed
up and then they like fusion danced together
and became superman again And I threw all my
comic books out. I was so sick of it. I was like,
get out of here. Did it look cool when they fused
together? What else you got here? I just like
painting women. It's really that simple. Get
permission from the models before you paint them,
though. Yeah, that's a good idea. There's always
just that dude in the park with the sketchbook.
Yeah, don't do that. Don't be that weirdo. And
I really, really fast. painting where it's just
like the essence of the thing and not realism
at all you're really just like catching a moment
yeah and i did a real life painting in school
and stuff like that and you don't have time to
worry about every detail especially with watercolors
it's gonna bleed together you gotta take a after
you put a layer down you gotta walk away you
have to it's you'll fuck it up if you don't yeah
dude this has been awesome yeah it's fun it's
uh Is there anything else you want to share before
we get out of here? I think that's it, man. Yeah.
Thanks for being here. Thanks for sharing all
the things, man. It's been great. It's always
nice to talk to people in this setting that I
know really well because I get to find out about
things about you that I don't know that I would
have ever talked about with you just hanging
out in the backyard. And also, fucking congratulations
on... doing the thing making it like like making
it work man like it's it's really fucking hard
to do and i don't think yeah when you're in it
i don't think you realize like how rare it really
is either yeah i wish it was less rare and so
a lot of times people come to me and they say
oh i can't draw a stick figure yes you can do
you want to draw a stick figure do you want to
draw something cooler than that you can learn
it i promise you you don't I get really annoyed
when people say talent and they talk about their
grandma or something and how they inherit it.
It drives me crazy. It's really insulting to
me. Yeah. I put a lot of time and effort and
work into learning and researching. And you can
have a predisposition to be more successful at
certain things than others. But no matter what,
if you don't want to do it, you're not going
to get better at it. Yep. And if you don't put
the work in, you're not going to get better at
it. If you want to learn how to paint landscapes,
go watch Bob Ross. If you want to learn how to
comic book, go copy Jim Lee. Yeah, it's okay.
And if you sit down and it's just not working,
then you probably don't want to do it that badly.
If it hurts, if it's that, and sometimes art
is hard to do and it's work. Yes. It is work.
It is a job. There's a drawing I've been working
on for... It's easier not to do it. It is easier
to not do it. Right, exactly. There's a drawing
I've been working on for three years now, and
I just cannot find it in me to finish it. The
original idea was to do all 900 Koroks from Breath
of the Wild. All different. Why do you do these
things to yourself? I don't know. I hate myself.
So I got one page into it, and I've... 38 Koroks
left and I just don't have the energy to do it.
I don't. I have to at some point because it's
sitting there mocking me. Thanks to Matthew for
joining us this week. We had a great talk about
all kinds of stuff. I hope you enjoyed it. Hit
that subscribe button. We got a lot of really
exciting interviews coming up. Jason Thrasher
talks to me about his visits to India, as does
Jim Kimo West. There's some parallels between
their two interviews that I thought was pretty
interesting. John Neff talks about all kinds
of experiences over the years. Sam Lipkin tells
us all about the different ways that she's gotten
involved in the music community in Athens, Georgia.
And Mary Joyce not only tells us more about AthFest,
but she really tells us some wild stories about
some of the old bands she played in, too. So
hit that subscribe button. Got a lot of cool
episodes coming your way. I also talked to Lanny
Farmer, performed with him at Foundry in Athens.
I'm going to be back in Athens on November 18th,
back with Lanny Farmer. Lanny Farmer will be
on the show in the next couple weeks as well,
so stick around.