Welcome to Overeducated and Underemployed. I've
got a really exciting episode for you today.
These interviews coming up the next few weeks
weren't exactly what I had planned the last time
I went to Athens. But I gotta say the timing
turned out better than I had planned. Talking
today to a man named Ben Spraker. Ben Spraker
is in a band called The Shut Ups, who have an
album coming out this week. And The Arcs, who
have an album coming out next week. Next week,
I'll be talking to Kevin Lane from The Arcs and
a bunch of other bands, and we'll get into that.
And the week after that, I'll be talking to Jason
Neesmith, who is also in The Shut Ups and a bunch
of other bands, including Casper and the Cookies.
So this was a really, uh, amazing little set
of interviews. I am going to give them to you
out of order just a little bit here in which
I recorded them because, uh, the shutups got
their album coming out this week and the arcs
got their album coming out next week. So I'm
going to give you, uh, Ben, who's a member of
both first, then we'll get into Kevin Lane next
week. Who's with the arcs. And then Jason Neesmith
and I talk a lot about recording, engineering,
mastering, and nerd out on that sort of thing
for a while. So check that out in a couple weeks.
But he's also in a band called The Shut Ups.
I just listened to their new album, Proverbs.
It fucking rules. It's going to be out this week
on Attaboy Tapes. The release party is at Cine
on Saturday. If you're in the Athens area, I
encourage you to check it out. There's links
to all the things in the description of this
episode. Ben and I had a great conversation.
You will notice the recording quality gets a
good bit better audio -wise about 10 minutes
in, maybe 11 minutes in. Had a slight audio issue
at the beginning of the episode. Without further
ado, here is my interview with Ben Spraker. This
is Overeducated and Underemployed. I'm here with
Ben Spraker. And the release is, what, September
6th? December 6th, yeah. And where are y 'all
doing the party? The album release party is at
Cine on September 6th. I love Cine. Yeah, it's
a great venue. It's a great little spot. They've
really upped their game over there. I haven't
seen a live show there in a while. It's great.
It's just a killer -sounding room. It's still
that room off to... the right when yeah the lab
that's right next to the theater yeah i've seen
jay gonzalez playing there before and they may
have upgraded by them but a wonderful band yeah
it was just him yeah it's a really high ceiling
and if you if the band is at the right volume
level then it really just comes alive and isn't
too it's one of those things where it can be
racquetball cordy if you're too loud but You
can definitely make it work in there. When it
does work, it works real well. Nice. Yeah. Maybe
I'll have to come back up. Yeah, you might as
well. I'm starting to look at just like renting
a room in somebody's house instead of getting
a hotel every time. Because even if by the time
you stay like four nights, you might as well
almost rent a room somewhere. And then I can
come up whenever I want. Athens, Georgia, the
fucking rules. That's part of why I do so many
of my interviews here. But I'm going to ask you
the first question that I ask everybody, and
then we can just dive into it from there. All
right. What's the first song that you remember
loving as a kid? The first song that I bought
with my own money was Life's Been Good to Me
So Far by Joe Walsh. And it was when department
stores still sold 45s. Oh, nice. Department store.
Yeah, I'm just old enough. It's called Hills.
I don't know if it was a Virginia thing. I grew
up in Roanoke, Virginia. There's some pretty
serious flooding going on there right now. Maybe
they dodged it, but I think they were worried
about it with that storm. I haven't been hearing
about it, anybody I know. Maybe not. Maybe I'll
just pretend I never said that. Yeah, I'll have
to look into that. Yeah. So I heard that song
on the radio. I was being taken to either t -ball
or soccer practice, and my friend's mom was in
the front seat, and my friend's older sister
was in the passenger seat, and she was singing
along to Life's Been Good to Me So Far by Joe
Walsh on the radio, and it made me think, this
must be really cool. This is something I'm supposed
to like. I ended up going to the store and buying
it, and I loved that song. The guitar riff is
always right under the fingers. It's always fun
to just play when you're warming up. How old
were you? Oh, man, I was probably, jeez, I couldn't
have been more than seven, eight or something.
Oh, wow. Yeah. Wild, wild. Were you interested
in making music right away, or were you really
just a fan? No, but I remember... Kiss, we were
really into Kiss, and so we would jump around
with the tennis rackets, and we would just mess
around with guitars, but I wasn't initially into
playing seriously. Did you play a lot of sports
as a kid? Is that the third sport you've mentioned?
Yeah, I know. I tried. I was not a natural at
sports. That sounds like me and music. Nothing.
I tell this joke that all comedians want to be
rock stars. I am. And that most rock stars wish
they were comedians. Yeah, it's always fun to
think about trying to do that. How many jokes
are in five minutes? Like these open mics that
comedians do, it's five minutes. It's like, how
many jokes is that? Five minutes can be a long
time. Oh, yeah. You're bombing. Yeah, I have.
Every while I'd collect some jokes just in case
I have the nerve to try that one day. You at
least have to have onstage banter sometimes.
Yeah, yeah, there is that. There is that, too.
But, yeah, I didn't... It was... I was in school
band playing the trumpet, and that sort of unlocked
my brain with how music works. Middle school
or high school? Middle school. And then I got
into the guitar, and... that pretty much left
the trumpet behind and so i was pretty obsessed
with guitar through from age 13 just on um yes
and that's still what you primarily yeah yeah
i am a i am an athens georgia based guitarist
singer and songwriter when did you move here
1990 to go to college I ended up living here.
My brother ended up living in his college town,
too. He moved to Radford, Virginia. That's what
happened to my parents, too. I'm from Tallahassee,
so, yeah, they went to Florida State, and they
were like, yeah. But, and same with me, except
I'm trying to get out. I bought a house in 2019,
and that was a great time to buy a house, but
not in a city you didn't want to stay in. Yeah.
Is this Atlanta where you live? No, Tallahassee.
You live in Tallahassee now? Yeah, yeah. Yeah,
I was born there, never left. My kid turned 18
this year. Oh, my God. Wow. I'm 39, so I was
a young dad. Now I'm getting to do all the things
that a lot of people do when they're stupid in
their 20s, but I'm doing it with a little bit
more discipline, wisdom, and that kind of thing.
Right on. But I still feel young enough to do
it. Nothing terrifies me more than the idea of
being a really old parent. Yeah, just being really
old is terrifying enough. Yeah, there's a Steve
Earle quote that I love. It's almost more weird
now that his son is gone, but if I'd have known
I was going to live this long, I'd have taken
better care of myself. That's a good one. When
did you start writing songs? Oh, yeah. So I started
writing songs. As soon as I could play things,
I would make up riffs. And that was, to me, that
was what a song, all songs, that was a cool guitar
riff. And I would think, somebody else will figure
out what to sing over it. I identified as a guitarist
before I thought of myself as somebody that could
sing and write songs. And so I was probably...
around 20 or so when I started writing when basically
it was we our band didn't have a singer anymore
and it was time for someone to sing and I just
started doing it and that's just how it started
it was my first band in Athens it was a band
called Ancient Otis when I got all my friends
from Roanoke to move here and then a couple of
those guys moved back to Roanoke and Then Ceiling
Fan, and that's the band that most people know
me from, from the mid -90s into the early 2000s.
We were a three -piece band where I sang and
played guitar, and my childhood friend from Roanoke,
Virginia, Dave Giroux, played drums, and Jess
Robbins was the bass player. Hell yeah. And Dave
Giroux and I are in the Arcs. And that's the
Athens, Georgia, The Arcs. And I talked to Kevin
earlier that day. Yeah, I actually was also listening
to them the other night with Sloan. Those first
three tracks, we went out to dinner and at least
two or three of them popped up. Cool. I think
two, maybe the third played on the way back.
But anyway, super excited for that record. Yeah,
it's a weird, when it rains, it pours thing.
Two of my bands I play in are both putting out
records at the same time. So it's, hey, listen
to the show. Listen to the arcs. Well, I knew
y 'all had all worked together, but I don't think
it's been today as I've sat down and talked to
all three of y 'all that I've realized how connected.
So it's actually a really cool little arc of
episodes, too. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, yeah.
Did you ever struggle with... putting your music,
like when you started writing songs, did you
find it hard to share them with people? No, it's
just funny, like depending on what musicians
you're playing with, your writing technique would
change, or would for me. I would, okay, I would
sometimes, with some musicians, you would play
your part. and then let the other musicians just
improvise their part and say, oh, what was that?
And then you make the song out of that. And then
you find yourself with other musicians that don't
like to do that. They want you to provide them
a demo, like a recording of just the basics,
and then they come with their part. Or they would
rather just you tell them what the part should
be. So it's... But no, I've never had trouble
feeling weird about... providing musical ideas
to people. It's just interesting how different
musicians just have a different way of wanting
to collaborate, to work on songs. Yeah. I was
just talking about that with, with Jason and
like the difference between the way, like his,
like the Casper bands, all the same band, but
different names. Yeah. And then versus how like
Pylon Reenactment Society is like, much more
like democratic thing yeah and is like adjusting
between those like different dynamics is that
something that you find difficult difficult now
but i remember being disoriented by it because
when you first start working with musicians on
songs you just get this you think that this is
the way musicians are you think you know right
and then you realize that no not everybody likes
to do it that way yeah that's just one of the
ways yeah yeah but yeah How did that help inform
how you changed? Because it's like if you just
thought that's how musicians were, then you didn't
know that you could be any different. Yeah, it
made you like if you are working with people
that would rather have a recorded demo to learn
a song from before you get together to play it,
then you learn how to make demos. Yeah, yeah.
Because even though the demo doesn't have to
be anything great, just give me the idea. Selling
the song to the, you got to make the demo good
so that, so that the people who hear it go, that
sounds worth our time to pursue. So it's, no
one wants to admit that the quality of the demo
is important, but it is. You're trying to get
people excited about this musical idea you have.
And even if it's not a complete song, if you
only have one verse and the chorus idea. And
so you're just repeating that to get the proof
of concept. You want the guitar to sound really
cool. You want to sing it well. You don't want
to half -ass the demo because nobody wants to
admit it. You are trying to get people excited
about working on the song that you're trying
to present to the band. For sure. Yeah, it helps
to be able to work in a lot of different ways.
improvising the parts and then writing the song
based on something that you've improvised. That's
a fun way to do it that I haven't worked that
way in a while. And I'm hoping I can break back
into a situation where that's the case. Yeah.
But yeah, ultimately, you're just happy about
who you're playing music with. Yeah. And you
just want to... adapt to what works well for
them so that's it's fine yeah so you grew up
in Roanoke uh and then like your whole childhood
and then you just moved here for college yeah
I moved here to go to UGA and and and did you
graduate yeah I mean I feel like that's a legit
a lot of people especially if you figure out
what you're supposed to be doing while in college
You're like, why am I doing this? Yeah, exactly.
I got the standard four -year degree. But I've
been just playing bands the whole time, and I
just love everything about being in a band. Yeah.
Yeah. It's just my favorite way to hang out with
people. It's, hey, let's get together, and I'll
put our problem -solving hats on and figure out
how to make this thing good enough to put in
front of people. And then we're going to schedule
a time when we're going to do that. And we're
going to put it in front of people. Yeah. We
think it's good. And it's just a great way to
hang out with people. I agree. I don't think
that there's a world I belong in better than...
My first job was at a venue that was getting
pretty big touring acts. I was just like a loader
and like a flyer guy. And I was like 15. And
they would send me to competitors' parking lots.
And I always just knew this is the world I belong.
I started going on the road with bands and shit
that when I was like too young to be doing that.
But I guess my point is I get exactly what you
mean. Being part of that, being any part of that
is so exciting. Yeah, it's really cool. And I
think it's something that like... comedians and
musicians have in common too because it's it's
a more collaborative a lot of the time with musicians
and I think and I've talked about this before
where like the response is a lot more important
with comedy whereas you can have a good show
with three other people in the room watching
you if you guys feel like you put on a good show
yeah yeah it's really hard to feel like you put
on a good show as a comedian with five people
in the room or whatever yeah But I think leading
up to the show is very similar. Yeah. You're
refining this thing. Yeah. Your goal is just
to make people have a good night. Yeah. Have
fun. Yeah. Maybe with their families or not or
their whatever. Provide a place for people to
escape from all the bullshit. Yes. And I don't
know if you're like me, but to me, when you're
working on the escape, it almost feels like you
cheated the system. It's like you're getting
away with not working. Yeah, I agree. It is work,
but it doesn't feel that way. It just feels like
I've been doing it long enough that it just feels
like a natural thing that I do. Yeah, yeah. When
did you realize that being in a band was what
you wanted to be doing? I was in middle school,
and I'd been playing guitar for a couple years.
And there was a kid down the street who played
bass and we would just play along the Iron Maiden
songs. And that was good fun and all, but I'd
never played with a drummer before. And I went
down the street and that kid's older brother
had a band with an actual drummer. Had you played
with a click? No, no, this was just, not really,
just the recordings. Yeah. It wasn't an easy
thing. I guess I had... That's like a different
thing. Yeah, yeah. Like once you play with a
drummer. Yeah, but I'll tell you, it's... When
I... It was... I went over to this guy's house
and they were playing and I got to put on the
guitar and the drummer started playing a beat
and I started hitting the strings and that's
when it was like... I felt like Richard Dreyfuss
in Close Encounters of the Third Kind starting
to chase the... The Plateau. Man, that's crazy.
I literally talked about that movie like last
week. Because I think that movie is about, it's
not about aliens. It's about a religious calling.
It's what I would imagine when somebody, like
when Moses, you know, I'm not trying to talk
literalism or not or anything. I'm just talking
when Moses is compelled to go to the mountain.
That's what is going on to all these people in
close and kind of like they he just abandons
his family. Yeah, I guess so right now but just
the moment of the whole the bass line for me
is Hit the guitar strings with drop someone hitting
the drum to the same time and just that simple
thing just that bass line Just became that's
all I wanted to do and it's and I'm always trying
to come to the perfect moment of hit the guitar
string with the drum set. Fuck yeah. And then
that's all it is. And then so the singing and
the songwriting and all the other stuff, that's
all great, but it really just comes down to this
primal need to play the electric guitar and hear
the snare and the bass drum. It's that. That
is not what I thought you were going to say when
you said that you had never played with a drummer
before. I think a lot of guitarists, the first
time they play to a click or with a drummer,
they realize that they're not maybe as good as
they thought they were at that point. But for
you, you're like, no, this is where I belong.
That moment was like, I'm in. I went into it
before that, but that was when it went to that
Richard Dreyfuss level from Close Encounters
of the Third Kind. That's such a perfect analogy.
it really is i think thanks that feeling of being
drawn to something that you first of all i think
you're pretty lucky to figure out what that was
at that age right there's a lot of people that
like dude i didn't figure out i for a long time
i was like i should be a musician or but i can't
i'm not like i can sing it i sing in a choir
okay but that's like a community choir but that's
like about it I can read some music, but I'm
not a musician. But I wanted to be so bad. But
it wasn't until three or four years ago that
I realized what my medium or whatever it is was.
Whatever you want to call it. Plenty of time.
Sure, but I guess my point is I'm getting to
something where I feel like if that stuff is
in you and you don't have an outlet for it, it
starts to... show up in other ways. Did you experience
that before? You know what I'm talking about,
right? There was this almost like a darkness
or like a fire. There was nothing I was that
obsessed with. I got into things and I tried
to play sports and I tried to play, ride a skateboard
and I tried to, and then the school band was
fun. I liked that, but I knew. I felt like I
had some kind of a good ear for music at that
point, but just the whole playing electric guitar
with someone on the drum set, that became just,
there was nothing that I was more obsessed about
before that. So that was definitely just like,
all I want to do, it's all I'm thinking about.
And that's just still what drives me. If I have
a band practice or something coming up and it
becomes a thing where it's like, oh, the drummer
can't make it. I'm way less interested, even
though I'll still do it. It's definitely not
as fun for me to play without the drums. So do
you play solo much? Not too much. I've only done
it a few times. I feel like I probably would
be good to do it more. It would probably make
me a... better player if i did it a lot more
thing that's interesting about playing solo is
that you you you get to make the arrangement
what you want it to be on the fly you can just
decide in the moment this chorus goes on another
time through or you can just or you go to the
wrong chord and you just stay on the wrong chord
and so this is how it goes now and you can just
you can will it into existence because you don't
have anyone else to... No one else has to be
playing, so you really can just decide. That
initially was considered wrong, but it's right
now. That really reminds me of the difference
between doing stand -up and doing improv comedy.
Yeah, yeah. Because, yeah, if I'm just up there,
I could just decide I don't want to do any of
the jokes on my list. I'm not a crowd work guy,
but if I wanted to be, I could just do that and
that would be my whole night. That's a beautiful
thing. And similarly, you can rearrange your
songs on the fly. With a band? Yeah, certain
bands. You're really on top of listening very
well, but you can't quite... You can really have
the flexibility when you play solo, and that's
a cool thing, but I don't do it very often. I
just usually prefer to play music with other
people and play with a band is normally what
I do. What about when you're writing? Do you
write by yourself? I do write by myself a lot,
and a lot of it is because most other musicians
don't like writing along with people. I find
I'm always about, I'm into the idea of writing
as a... collaboration more, but it just seems
like most of the people I play music with, it
just works better if I come up with the idea
and then bring it to them. And then they add
their part or I have a part in mind that I give
them. It depends on the particular band. With
the Arcs, I write half the songs. Kevin writes
the other half of the songs. And I sing the songs
I write and he sings the songs he writes. And
you also... decide how the songs you write are
going to be too, right? Like it's a little bit
different than if kind of everybody collaborates
on your song. That's not how it really goes.
Once we get it into the band context, there'll
be ideas thrown around about maybe we go to the
bridge a second time or maybe there's arrangement
ideas and things that happen. with the arcs,
but most of it is, even though the four of us
split the writing credit on paper evenly. Sure.
But as a matter of process with the arcs, we,
whoever is the songwriter kind of has some degree
of dominion over the song, but it just depends
on how, sometimes I don't have a particular idea
about how the bass part should be. Do you find
it challenging? when you're in that kind of environment
where it is more okay this is my song so this
is how it's going to be and then you don't necessarily
know how you want all of it to be yeah it's not
if you have the right people it's not they just
step up and they're cool some people will assert
themselves when they have a good idea and you
most of the time it is a good idea yeah and then
and it normally if i have a strong idea about
what something other than my guitar and my singing
should be for a song, most of the time the people
are receptive to that. This ARX record has been
a long time coming, right? Yeah, it took us a
while to get it. There was a lot of moving to
different houses and kids being born and a lot
of stuff. So it did take us a bit of time, but
here now. Yeah, I'm super excited for it. The
reason I mention that is because Kevin mentioned
that when you tried to do the remote recording
thing, you guys got into this thing where somebody
would run with an idea too long without anybody
else having any feedback at all. And so it would
be like you'd get lost in a rabbit hole. Nothing
specific was brought up. I'm not trying to start
shit within the band. No, he's right. I know
exactly what you're talking about. It's sometimes
if somebody commits to an idea and then there's
not that instant feedback when we work on it
together, then it's like not everybody likes
it. And it's also with the thing about trying
to do music during COVID was that you thought,
hey, we can just email our parts around and we
can record remotely. Some people that works for.
Yeah, but it's the... The getting together and
hanging out is what drives the whole thing, it
turns out. And so it's hard to get motivated
to do all this stuff if you don't have the hanging
out together. That would really hurt us as far
as stuff. I don't have any regrets about it.
It's done now. It came out well, so here we are.
Yeah, no, I just think it's interesting that
someone like Sloan, for instance, almost only
records remotely. Yeah. And it's just... Different
people can do it different ways and for very
different reasons. Yeah. You probably heard from
Jason a bit about how the shut -ups operate,
but it's the main writer in that band, Don Condescending,
his real name is Christopher Snell. Yeah. He
writes every part of everything. He sends it
all to us. It's like a benevolent dictatorship.
Yeah, and he sends it all to us, and we learn
the parts, and we can mold them, and we have
input. But the songs are basically fully formed
when we get them. And the good news is we love
his songs. His songs are so good that we just
play them. And so with that band, it can probably
work to do more remote stuff. That could work
a little better. I think Sloan said something
similar. He's like, everybody, I'm just always
happy with what other people lay down. It's like
it's always awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it's,
yeah, there's a way to do it for everybody. Right.
And sometimes the not getting together in the
same room and hashing things out, if you don't
have that piece of it, then it doesn't really
work. I found that to be the case with a few
of my musical projects during that time. Yeah,
yeah. Mike Cooley says at one point, like, they
don't practice because if you want to break up
a band, practice. And so it's just a different,
totally different way of approaching it. Yeah,
now those guys tour a lot. Yeah, that's true
too, yeah. And I'm sure whatever... And I think
they practice before they go in the studio, but
that's... about it yeah well they play so much
since they tour so much that they don't need
to yeah yeah yeah yeah there is definitely something
such a thing as being around some people too
much yeah yeah so what is the first band that
you were in or especially that you were writing
songs in that you really felt like meant something
to you that you thought was okay i'm starting
to find my groove feeling fan because i was writing
lyrics and vocals and guitar and like writing
the full stuff even though i had a very collaborative
relationship with the bass player jess robbins
and dave giroux who's in the now because we would
throw Let me play this for you. What do you think?
And we'd come up with the music that way. So
it was definitely, there was a real -time collaborative
set up with that. But I was writing the lyrics
and the melody for the voice. So that was really
where I found my songwriting voice. Did you take
guitar lessons? or vocal lessons a little bit
about guitar lessons i never took vocal lessons
yeah i took a little bit of guitar lessons and
when i first started playing my mother got me
a videotape of wolf marshall guitar power builder
oh yeah it was just how to play lead there were
no chords in it oh god i just got what was available
you know right and so i when i first started
playing it was like i was really into metal so
it was like once i learned power chords i was
like i got chords down now that's what it turns
out no there's a lot more to it than that but
yeah so i took a little bit of guitar lessons
but it's mostly just playing along to records
and going to the local music store and meeting
other musicians and just learning it that way
and you're listening to metal what was some of
the other stuff you were growing up listening
oh man when i was Before guitar, I liked a lot
of the new wave stuff, like the early NXS and
stuff like that. I thought that the keyboard
player in the Revolution wearing the surgeon
scrubs, I thought he was the coolest. And so
I was into that, and then guitar comes along,
and then it's just, I loved metal, and so I was
really into Van Halen and Prince at the end of
Let's Go Crazy, the big guitar lead at the end
of that. Just the whole idea of the guitar. And
it was so weird, the whole lead guitar arms race
that was going on in the late 80s. Prince really
doesn't get enough credit for his guitar playing.
He was such an amazing guitar player. Yeah, yeah.
Like one of the best. Yeah, just a cool guitar
player. Always play the cool stuff. Yeah. And
he knows when to not play. So all that stuff.
And that's really important. Yeah. And when Let's
Go Crazy came out, Wawa was not cool. It was
out of style, but he comes along. Oh, I see.
Let's Go Crazy comes out, and he's, like, doing
this Hendrix -sounding thing, which was just
not in style at that time. I guess just the music
intelligentsia decided, okay, we're not doing
Wawa for a while. But Prince is like, nope. Well,
there was a fire at the Wawa Pedal Factory, and
it was just not, they got really expensive. Yeah,
but, yeah, metal, and then I went to UGA, and
I couldn't help but get caught up in R .E .M.
Even though I didn't really like R .E .M. in
high school, I just didn't really, I just wanted
fast, crunchy, riff -based music at that time.
opened my ears up a bit, and I started working
at the campus radio station here, 90 .5 WUOG.
Oh, yeah. Shut up. So I started really hearing
a lot more different kinds of music and meeting
people like Jason D. Smith, a ceiling fan, and
started playing, and he and I crossed paths,
and our bands started playing together. He had
a band called Lana Becomes a Man. Yeah, he mentioned
him earlier, yeah. One of the coolest. fans that
people don't know about and and so he started
being the guy that would record ceiling fan and
and i didn't realize i just thought wow this
is a kind of music person there are people who
can do what he can do but i didn't realize he's
a different breed he's he's there's not many
people as talented as him no he i yeah man i
gotta say it was That was part of why I was so
quiet when I first, I was just, like, processing
that conversation I'd had with him. What a fucking
smart guy he is. Yeah. Really enjoyed talking
to him. A guy can do anything. Yeah. Yeah. And,
like, you're glad he's chosen to do good things.
Oh, yeah. Because he literally, I think, could
do anything. Yeah, that's right. It happens to
have good taste, which is good for everybody.
Yeah. but yeah you know so what year did you
move here i moved here in 90 okay and then he
moved here in 94 i think yeah but like we started
our he was living in atlanta when we met him
there in the midnight that's right so we would
go to atlanta to record with him because he was
have you guys recorded sailing van i was like
we have we did some stuff on a four -track why
don't you come to my house and let us record
let me record you and we're like yeah And it
turned out it was the best recording experience
we'd ever had. We were like, where have you been
all our lives? And he totally got us, and he's
just an amazing engineer. There's a reason he's
the lead mastering engineer at Chase Park. Right.
Yeah. Yeah, no, he's genius, I think might be
the appropriate word. Yeah, he is. And so we
went, we were going to Atlanta to work with him.
We were trading shows and ceiling fan going to
Atlanta and playing with his band. And then they
come to Athens and play with us. And then eventually
he moved to Athens there in the, I want to say
sometime in the early 2000s. And then Casper
and the Cookies started becoming more of a band
than just a recording project. His initial things,
it was a recording only thing. And then it turned
into a band. And then, you know, so that's how
it's hard to believe that he hasn't lived here
the whole time but there was a little yeah and
then i i got some wires correct it was kevin
that moved here in 94 oh yeah that sounds right
and then and then yeah he was in atlanta yeah
and then the whole as far as like the whole scene
of people we got kevin moving here with and his
brother and then doing the possibilities with
bob spires and then and they started as a three
-piece and then they brought in chris green and
jay gonzalez and then that became the possibilities
that most people know yeah powerhouse and then
of course you got matt was in the early version
of the truckers and then i'd take some credit
for jay being in the truckers shut ups had used
to do in the mid 2000s we did a halloween show
every year for three or four years maybe five
years in a row, where we would do, we would play
at the Caledonia, rest in peace, where the church
bar is now. But we would play there and we would
do a thing where I would find people I knew who
would dress up as musicians and celebrities for
Halloween. And I'd say, okay, you're going to
be Kenny Rogers for Halloween. Yeah. Let's learn.
Islands in the stream and you come and sing it
with us in costume and you'll be Dolly Parton.
And we, and so I just had this whole thing up
here. We got all of these people to do. Almost
like a review. Yeah. We would make it like a
theme, like it's a special concert to raise awareness
of death. And, and, and. So we would do this
thing and people would wear their costumes and
get up and they would just bring the lyrics on
a piece of paper and just sing it. And we had
all these different people do it. And one year,
Patterson and Jay both were on our roster. Patterson
did Little Red Riding Hood. It's an old song.
I can't remember the original artist right now.
It's a 50s or a 60s song. And he had the whole
Wolfman costume on. The Big Bad Wolf costume.
And that same show, Jay was playing, but he did
Pressure by Billy Joel on piano. And it was at
that show that I think Patterson, they were looking
for someone to play keyboard and guitar and stuff.
And he pulled Jay aside and said, listen, I fucking
hate Billy Joel. So that sounded great. Would
you be interested in joining the truck? And so
that happened at our show. It was like sometime
in the mid 2000s. Yeah. Yeah. That's hilarious.
Yeah. So did you, what are some of the, the job,
like some of the jobs that you've had in Athens
over the years? I worked for the UGA food services
a lot when I first started living here just on
campus. delivery driver and i'm working the concession
stand at the tate center where the movie theater
is and all that stuff so i did a bunch of that
and then i was a educational representative for
a musical instrument retailer and to where i
would go to schools and help the school the band
director like repair instruments and then basically
in return for helping out the band director they
would do their school band instrument rentals
through us and buy all their music through us
and all this those were like like a thing like
that and so i got pretty heavily into knowing
a lot about school band and orchestra and fixing
those instruments yeah yeah that's pretty cool
yeah yeah like thing reads and mouthpieces and
all that stuff because that was really fun and
we would go into the we would go to the fifth
grade fifth graders in elementary school and
test those kids on what they were going to play
in sixth grade and band. So you would have the
mouthpieces out and they would all take turns
playing stuff. And, and certain kids would definitely
have aptitude for other certain types of music.
Some kids would be good at playing the brass
mouthpiece. And some kids had the aptitude for
the flute head joint blowing across the, it's
like blowing across a Coke bottle. How much of
that has to do with natural mouth shape and things
like that? It's all of that. It's all of that
and just why are their brains wired? But there's
just nothing cooler than telling a little kid
that they're good at something. Yeah. That sounds
fucking awesome. It was my favorite. I love that
job. The thing that was interesting is that all
the kids, it turns out everyone wants to play
saxophone and... percussion the two loudest things
so you can't you have to make those really hard
destiny so you don't have too many and how do
you feel about saxophone and rock music did kevin
talk about that no not at all i literally i think
maybe is just like guitar it can be bad or it
can be good yeah yeah there's a right way to
do it just like guitar i tend to in far as saxophone
and rock music i like the coasters and the yeah
50s and 60s rock with saxophone there's a lot
of bad stuff in the 80s with david sanborn and
all that sort of stuff and the clarence clemons
and but yeah there's a lot of bad stuff but then
you got the band morphine totally cool yeah that
band rules yeah my buddy jason who is like one
of my longest friends who used to take me to
shows all the time when I was a poor college
kid. That's one of his all -time favorite bands.
So just shout out to Jason. Kids, sometimes you
just have to put the saxophone mouthpiece away.
You already got too many. There's already too
many of them. And they're loud. You can't have
too many saxophones in the band. There's all
these kids that are coming to test to figure
out what to play. And a lot of kids end up playing.
They can't play anything. They can always play
clarinet. It's always an easy one. I'm laughing
because my mom played clarinet. Well, it's something
you wanted to start with, and then those kids
would often graduate to saxophone or oboe. She
was a drum major in high school. My mom was talented,
but I just thought it was just funny. It's just
one of those things where the kid who can't play
anything, it's just like anybody can blow into
a clarinet mouthpiece and get a sound. But the
thing about percussion, you had to pick the kids
that... It seemed like they had enough upstairs
to be able to keep up with all the mallets and
the sticks and everything. And you couldn't have
too many of them, so you'd have to make the test
hard enough that only the really smart ones could
do it. Oh, interesting. You would tap on your
knees and have the kid mirror what you were doing,
and you would make it really weird and hard,
and some kids would get it. And you would be
like... You got to do it. There's nothing better
than telling a little kid they're good at something.
And the next thing you know, it's a superstar
in a superstar machine taking it to the stars.
But you get some kids that are like, you would
make it really hard. You would have a pattern
on your hands and knees that it would just be
really hard to memorize. It was weird. And some
of the kids would just do it easily and be like,
okay. But yeah, it's... I think if kids had their
way, everyone would be on saxophone and drums,
and that would be it. That sounds like a terrible
band. Yeah. I do not want to see them. A lot
of girls like to play flute for whatever reason,
and it's also just the whole, it's like, are
you, is your brain wired, and are you someone
that can just do the whole thing? That's right.
Being able to throw the skinny stream of air
over the... Over the hole in the flute head joint.
That's wild to think about how early that you
would be able to figure that out with some of
these kids too. That's pretty cool. That was
a great job. I had that for a while. Did you
find life getting a lot easier when you started
to do jobs that were directly related to music?
Yeah, but that job had its own difficulties.
I'm sure it was politics. I had to drive a lot
for it. My mom was a high school teacher, which
I feel like I'm ragging on my mom, but that's
fine. That's cool. Those that can't do teach,
and those that can't play anything play clarinet.
So I'm like, fuck, mom, I'm sorry. Anybody can
be in a band. You can always get someone on clarinet.
It's one of those ones where you just basically
blow into it and it makes a sound. Yeah, after
that, I had the job that I have today, which
is just a software company job. There's a lot
of those software companies here in Athens. Yeah.
Can we just switch gears for a second? Why do
you think that is? I'm sure there's probably
real reasons out there. For a while, I think
a lot of it was you had a lot of educated people
and cheap office space. For a while, it's not
so cheap now. It's gotten more expensive, but
it seemed like it was easier to have a workspace.
Now, of course, a lot of people work from home,
and it's not as necessary, but that's why. Gosh,
my buddy who used to have an office down, they
got rid of their office. Yeah, that's what they
did with us, too. You don't work with Matt Luffman,
do you? I do. Oh, okay. That's who I was. I was
like, wait a second. Yeah. I've stayed at his
house every year for homecoming for the last
decade. I've known that dude since 2008, man.
I love that guy. He's on such a different area
of the company than I am that I almost hardly
ever cross paths with him at work. But whenever
the company has a get together, I'll see him.
And so that's the only reason I even know he
still works there. Yeah. He's cool. Yeah, no,
he's great. And that's how I got to know Jen
Bryant a little bit. Oh, yeah. I don't know all
the history of the company, but at one point,
the company that Matt is at now was part of a
company that Jen was also at. I don't know. Yeah,
it got bought and sold a lot and split off into
pieces and all this stuff. I think Matt and I
are still with the same company, I believe. It
sounds like... It sounds like it, unless both
of y 'all got rid of your office. That was a
sweet parking spot gig. Dude, what a perk, man.
What a perk. I definitely don't go downtown as
much as I used to. Dude, there was a point there
after we lost our office like two or three years
ago where I was just like, I haven't had to look
for parking downtown in 10 years, man. How does
this even work? What if I leave my car downtown?
What happens? And we would always ride down together.
Yeah, yeah. And then just Uber back, because
we're not driving. We play a gig at the Nowhere
Bar. Well, if we're not getting together, nobody's
driving. Yeah, you play a gig at the Nowhere
Bar, you could just put your gear in your car
and then just put it up in the deck. And then
get an Uber ride home, and you're, okay, my gear
is in my car, but... What are the odds somebody's
going to climb all the way up the stairs of the
parking lot, break into it, and then come all
the way down? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It seems like
a pretty safe bet for the night. There's cameras
in there, too. It's a little bit different than...
You could carry your guitars in the Uber car,
so it'd be only the heavy shit that would be
left in the car. Or your pedals, which you don't
want to lose those either. So, Athens is crazy.
This happens all the time. It's wonderful. Yeah,
I love it. I love it. There's a whole phenomenon
of people leaving their gear at the venue overnight
and say, yeah, I'll just come and get it tomorrow.
I try to avoid doing that, but sometimes it's
just so alluring. But in a big city, you would
just never do that. You'd be so scared that your
gear wouldn't be there when you come back. I
don't even know if it's the big city aspect of
it. It's like the walkable aspect. Because you
can very easily be like, all right. i'm done
with this show but there's five other things
going on tonight and i don't want to have to
like do not be downtown anymore or whatever go
home like basically around the corner in athens
is 10 everything is 10 minutes away yeah from
everything yeah in athens if some and if you're
downtown everything's a 10 minute walk yeah yeah
and so it's so i think it's one of the reasons
why it's very easy for you to get people to interview
you on short notices because it's like it was
a 10 minute drive to come over here i could Yeah.
Leaving your gear behind at the venue and having
an arranger to come get it. It's like in Atlanta,
around the corner is 20 minutes. And around the
corner is usually not where you live from the
venue. So I'm going to drive 40 minutes. Just
load your gear in their car. Don't drink too
much and just drive home, buddy. Yeah, just the
way. You are working that night. Yeah. I feel
like that's the thing that's plagued musicians
is the term playing. When you're doing music,
you're playing. So it feels like it's okay if
the musician is the last person to be paid because
they're not working, they're playing. I feel
like that word itself is the thing that's made
it to where musicians just get ripped off all
the time. Comedians just get chicken fingers.
Yeah, yeah. Mozzarella sticks. Yeah, actually,
I could go for some mozzarella sticks right now,
dude. Yeah, yeah, they got some. Last night was
a long night at Cosby Charlie's. Oh, yeah. I
went and had a burger at lunch today. Right on.
I'm definitely like, all right, I'm ready to
dive into some real food tonight. Yeah, man.
So when you're writing songs, the really good
ones, and I think I already... know if i don't
know the answer to this it's going to surprise
me but when you write like a really good song
it's like you have your antenna up and it happens
to you right yeah what about when you're writing
a song like that it's like you have to get it
out of you or something like that but it's not
as fluid as that yeah sometimes it really feels
like and this is a cliche thing but sometimes
they write themselves and sometimes you have
to work on them really hard but then occasionally
it just seems like the results still you end
up with something you like either way it's just
sometimes you gotta get under the hood of it
and work on it more it doesn't just come as naturally
it's i guess it's the ones that write themselves
seemingly they're appealing in a way that You
almost feel like you cheated because it was too
easy. So you kind of love that one. I think jokes
are like the joke writing process is almost exactly
the same. And this is where I feel like the closest
parallel between songwriters and comedians. The
really good jokes, I didn't even come up with
it. It happened to me. Come up with a good joke.
How quickly do you... At what point do you research
to make sure you didn't subconsciously steal
it from somebody? I don't. Yeah, you just assume
you didn't. No, because here's the other thing,
and I think this is probably true with songwriting
too, is I'm going to make it my own. And this
is where I think I didn't start doing comedy
until pretty late, but I'd done all of these
other things in my life to where when I started
doing comedy, I found my voice and stuff. right
away and I actually want to talk to you about
that process because I think that's that's like
the most important thing for an artist is like
going for where you're all right I want to sound
like this or I'm mimicking this to like having
your own sound yeah but I think I was able to
achieve that with my with comedy pretty quick
because I'd taught college I'd raised a kid I'd
also just gotten to the age where I didn't give
a fuck about a lot of things anymore that I used
to like stuff that doesn't matter Like the stuff
that people care about when they think everything
matters, that doesn't matter. Like what other
people think, for instance. Yeah. Once you realize
that what other people think of you is none of
your business, it's so freeing. Yeah. And you
realize that people don't think that much about
you very much at all. Yeah. Yeah. That's okay,
too. Yeah. I'm okay with that. Yeah, it's definitely
okay. What was that process like for you when
you found your own voice? Because I think that's
when, and I don't know that I fully answered
your question because that's how we got here,
but when you have your own voice, nobody's got
the same joke. Yeah, it's not the same. It's
not. It's just not. It might have the same premise.
There might be some overlap, but... I also try
to record my sets, even if I don't release them,
because then I'm like, hey, I told this joke
on this day. Yeah. I wrote a Toby Keith joke
the day he died that got me booed. Oh, too soon.
No, it's never too soon. It's just the wrong
crowd. Yeah. Yeah. These were people that liked
Toby Keith. That was the problem. It's hard finding
your own voice as a musician. It's just, you
start. mimicking other things and then you figure
out what combination of things feels like you
and what's natural to you and it's just it's
a i think everybody has a different way of getting
there but it usually starts with you learning
to play other people's stuff and get good at
that and then you learn some other people's things
and you and you just make a sort of a mixture
of it everybody so you were playing a lot of
like punk and metal yeah when you were younger
how did that evolve into what you do now you
know um pretty different well i think when i
was learning to play when it was still lead guitar
was a big thing and it was in the 80s before
pre -grunge so it was definitely so i feel like
i gained some technique and some ability from
that but then it just seemed it was just so interesting
when it just became super uncool to do anything
that would glorify your ability to play your
instrument. It became very uncool. Can you explain
that dynamic a little bit? Because this is, I
think, something I never saw. Yeah, dude, you
go from people, everybody that was imitating
Eddie Van Halen, and all the constellation of
people doing that. And there's a million of them.
And it was on the radio. You had White Snake
and all these bands. And then just a couple years
later, Kurt Cobain is looking directly in the
camera during the guitar solo of Teen Spirit,
turning his tuning keys. This is stupid. I don't
care about any of it. And then that paradigm
shift. And so then it just felt right to just
play more simply and for the song. Because you
cared about musicianship. Yeah, you do. But then
you're sort of like, it did feel pointless at
that time. And I was all, I agreed it was stupid.
But I felt good that I could still do it. I could
still play. I knew I had developed the ability
to play. I'm just choosing to play more simply
and more directly. So I got into it. Sometimes
it's just two chords and fuck you. Exactly. And
that's what Soundgarden and that was the first
sort of grunge thing that I got into in the late
80s. And then you had Nirvana, of course, blew
the doors off. But it just made sense to play
more simply into the song because it was overdone,
the whole flashy guitar thing. But then that,
for me, morphed into Fugazi. That band and their
guitar style, they would take, they were playing,
two people playing simple things when you put
them together sound complex. So it's interesting.
So they were, so I got heavily into that for
a while. And then it's like Ian got, it's like
he got more music. He stops Minor Threat and
he gets more musical. Right. And you get the
best of both worlds with Fugazi. develop their
own guitar language of just ways of playing.
And I really got into that way for a while. And
then somewhere in there, it just suddenly became
right. It's still fun to bend the strings and
play like in a classic rock way. So that came
back. And then so now I just feel like I have
this whole post -punk vocabulary, but I have
the. I can't help but have the metal vocabulary
because that's what I grew up when I was... Can't
stop the metal. No. Yeah, it's funny. I think
if you come see, if you see the shut -ups, you'll
see that I'm Dr. Power Chord and Jason is the
more, he's more of a piano guy and has the, like,
there's a part that's more metal in a particular
shut -up song. I'm playing that part. But, yeah.
I've just got my favorite music is late 70s early
80s period where you had punk rock and heavy
metal sort of butting heads and there was this
weird mixture of it where people couldn't decide
which team they were on and that was my favorite
time before it really split off yeah it's like
you're either in this camp or this camp It was
like hardcore punk, and that was the thing that
both hardcore and punk and metal all split off
into a little bit. This is a weird example, but
the first Billy Idol was like a weird, it was
metal and punk at the same time. Yeah, that really
is. Yeah. And so it's just my favorite time,
the whole power pop, pub rock. Punk scene with
metal creeping into it What was the first concert
that you really like that you remember? We're
like the guitar player was like the fucking like
a god Any Van Halen, but it was I was at the
age. I was I was Van Hagar. It was yeah I did
end up getting to see Van Halen with David Lee
Roth, but it was much later than that So, of
course, he's – that guy's a giant. I think I'm
definitely heavily influenced by Eddie Van Halen
for sure. There's just no way around it. Angus
Young, Pete Townsend. Yeah. Dee Boone from the
Minutemen. Oh, interesting. That's not one that
people mention very often. No, but, yeah, I'm
big into that. Nels Klein. Yeah, Nels Klein,
one of my favorites. I was so happy he was back
with Wilco this year. They played Tallahassee.
It was impossible. When he plays Impossible Germany,
there's just not much. A lot of Wilco purists
don't really dig Nels Klein being in it. I don't
care. I think it makes everything better. Yeah,
yeah. Dude, these people that just won't let
artists evolve. Yeah. That drives me crazy more
than, oh, you don't sound like you. You look
good. Thank fucking God. Those records are already
there. You don't have to like it either. Those
records are there already. Yeah. Go listen to
those. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Speaking of records,
what are you, you've got the Arcs and the Shut
Ups coming out. Yeah. What else is going on in
your world? Oh my God. So yeah, I mean, it's
crazy that my two, two of my bands I play with.
are both putting out records at the same time
we just worked out this way with the shut -ups
putting out proverbs on september 6th and the
arts releasing 10 days later yeah the next week
yeah is recent arcs releasing athens ave on september
13th i have an i have another group called normal
town sound machine that has a record completed
that we're figuring out all the artwork and if
there's going to be a label. So that's a band
where I write all the songs, but my sister -in
-law is the singer, so that's fine. I write all
the songs, but I'm not the singer in the band.
I'm pretty sure I've heard that. Yeah. I also
think we've had drinks at Flickr before. That
was my episode with Ben Spraker. It was awesome
talking to him. I really love... We probably
have. We probably have. I've been sitting here
really like... This guy's familiar. Yeah, yeah.
I feel like we could talk all day. We probably
could. But is there anything that you really
want to make sure that you talk about before
we start to wrap things up and move on? No, just
everyone forgive me for imploring you to listen
to all this music that I'm part of that's all
coming out at one time. great records coming
out that we're really proud of with the Shut
Up's Proverbs and the Ark's Athens Ave. You should
have just done one release show. Yeah, I know.
I love doing double duty, man. Yeah, there you
go. Do you like playing live or recording more?
I think I like playing live maybe a little more.
And that's that's against the grain of a lot
of people. Pretty much everybody I've talked
to. Yeah. In the last couple. Yeah. A little
bit. Yeah. I like. Like Sloan never plays. Yeah.
He isn't. I like putting it out there. And I
just love. I love the energy of live shows. And
the audience and all of that. But I love recording
too. It's hard to pick. They're both so different.
But. I think the fans. while the records are
like life -changing sometimes and everything
you could possibly all the things that you want
a record to be shows are where i think the real
like explosion happens yeah yeah it's just fun
to see the machine work and show the people how
the machine works i think it goes back to what
you were talking about earlier right at the beginning
you were like picked up guitar with the drummer
and you like you knew you just wanted to be in
a band you wanted to work on this thing that
you like work together as a group and refined
it and made it something that you could put out
in public yeah and that's what's beautiful I
think that recording is cool but that's what's
beautiful about it all thank you so much it always
feels good to be in the club of people that somebody
wants to talk to that was my interview with Ben
Spraker I really enjoyed talking to him. He's
a super nice guy. Make sure you check out the
ARCs and the Shut Ups. The Shut Ups new album
Proverbs is coming out, I think, Friday. If that's
when streaming things come out. Maybe it's out
today. I don't know. It's out this week, though.
The release party's this Saturday. If you're
in the Athens area, check it out. Make sure you
hit that like button. Subscribe. Tell me what
your favorite song that you listened to as a
kid was in the comments. Thanks for listening
to Overeducated and Underemployed. Next week,
we got Kevin Lane from the Arcs. And all I'm
going to say is you're going to be hearing a
lot more about that band. I promise you. Thanks
for listening, y 'all.