WEBVTT

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Welcome to Season 2 of Overeducated and Underemployed.

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I'm Fedden. I'm super excited for the interview

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I've got for you today, and I'm super excited

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for the things I've got coming for you this season.

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We are doing video now, so you can check out

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our YouTube channel. I'm also doing some interviews

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over video chat and other methods, but... Still

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doing the majority in person if I can, but I

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wanted to expand my options a little bit. Today

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is going to be the first of such episodes. Today

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I am talking to Jeff Whalen, who was the singer

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for a band called Czar. He's also got a solo

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record out that came out in 2019 that I didn't

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know about until I talked to him. But I have

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since listened to it, and man, is it fun. Check

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it out. There's a link to it in the description.

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If rock and roll saved my life as a teenager,

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then Czar is definitely one of the bands that

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did it. And rock and roll definitely saved my

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life as a teenager, and still does. I had a great

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talk with Jeff. We talked for almost two hours.

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He was super gracious with his time. Really was

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very open, and it was great. I think you're going

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to really get a lot out of it. They kind of lived

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the czar, kind of lived the tale of the one -hit

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wonder. I got to see them open for a band called

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Marvelous 3. We talk about that. We talk about

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the beast of the major label and the music industry.

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Talk about perseverance. I really enjoyed this

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talk. I think you're going to as well. Thanks

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for tuning in. Here's my talk with Jeff Whalen.

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I'm only seeing you, not myself, but I can fix

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that. I can see you. Okay. Okay. I'm trying to

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get it to where I've got. Both of us on camera.

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I'm not sure if I'm going to release this as

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a video or not. I haven't done a video podcast

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before. I've actually done all of them in person.

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This is the first time I've done one remotely.

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Where are you? I'm in Tallahassee, Florida. Yeah,

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yeah. I've done a lot of my interviews in Athens,

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Georgia, though. I've been traveling up there

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to do a lot of these. Cool. Thank you for having

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me on. It's kind of a hub. culture up there,

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so there's a lot going on, a lot of people I

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can talk to. Awesome. I'm sure there's people

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in L .A. you can talk to if you ever decide to

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take a visit out here. A couple of the people

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that I just talked to last month used to live

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out there for a couple of years, or for a decade.

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Laura Wiggins was on Shameless for several seasons.

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She played Karen. And then Jonathan Spencer.

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And we're rolling now, so we'll just keep going.

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Oh, this is on. This is live. Yeah. We're not

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like, we're not like on the air anywhere. I can

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edit anything later, but yeah, I'm recording

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everything. We're good to go. All right. No,

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sometimes you do interviews and you do all this

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great stuff, like at the top. And then they go,

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all right, we're about to get going. I'm like,

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no, it was gold. I will just say I'm here with

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Jeff Whalen from, I know you from a band called

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Czar, who I have listened to. continuously since

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since I was a teenager awesome and we'll talk

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about that a little bit at some point in my my

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introduction to y 'all but I'm actually really

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curious what else you do and what if there are

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other bands other artistic projects I haven't

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really found yeah I don't really do a lot of

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research necessarily before my interviews especially

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Nor do I. I just get up there and make it all

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up as we go. Perfect. Yeah, yeah. I like to have

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an organic conversation. But if I'm interviewing

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somebody that I haven't interacted with at all

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or had any experience, of course I'll check on

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some things. But I'm actually really familiar

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with some aspects of your work. I just want to

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know more about what else you do. Okay. Okay,

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so yes. My kind of my first. Such as it was.

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My first major label thing was the band Tsar.

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T -S -A -R. We have to spell it even now. We

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picked the worst band name in the world. We didn't

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know. We thought it was rad. We thought it was

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going to be great. But it's a word that nobody

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knows it apparently. Which was a surprise to

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me. So that came out. We had two albums. That

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was in the early 2000s. The Ots. Then, since

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then, I did a solo album. I made two albums with

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my college band. That was a lot of fun. And then

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recently completed this other thing, which is

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called the Monster Squad, which is, let's call

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it like a bubblegum group, like a 60s bubblegum

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group. Where we're all like old -time movie monsters

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living the life kind of like the Monkees TV show.

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And that should be coming out, I'm hoping, sometime

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before Halloween. I don't know. There's various

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reasons why it wouldn't. But that's all finished

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and ready to come out whenever we can make that

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happen. And what was the title of that again?

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That's called The Monster Squad. The Monster

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Squad. Okay, awesome. I'm the mummy. There's

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Dracula. There's the Wolfman. There's Frankenstein.

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And laughs. And you're a band. Yeah, we're a

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band trying to make it in Hollywood. Like the

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monkeys. We all live in an apartment together.

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It started as the idea was supposed to be like

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a TV show. And we went to a lot of different

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TV networks and TV producers and stuff. We got

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a production deal. Things were looking up for

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a minute, but then it didn't happen. And so then

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since then, I've just been trying to finish the

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record, which was my main thing about it, which

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was this kind of bubblegum. Because in my heart,

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maybe, in my heart of hearts, is I'm a bubblegum

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guy. I'm a lot of things. And anybody worth a

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darn is many things inside. Yeah, yeah. But one

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of the ones that I am inside is a bubblegum guy.

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And expressing and exploring those tropes is

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meaningful to me in ways that I cannot explain.

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I think I can definitely see that in the music

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of yours that I know and love. Let me ask you

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the same question that I start with everybody

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because this leads nicely into it. What's the

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first song that you remember loving as a child?

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Being inquisitive about is a good way that I

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think Jay Gonzalez put it. to me when I asked

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him that. Do you remember? I do know that as

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a kid, like a little guy, and I don't know if

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we're doing video, but I'm indicating a small

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-sized person. It was probably I've been working

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on the railroad. Apparently, I love to listen

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to that song. I love to hear people sing it.

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I love to sing it. I've been working on the railroad

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all the live long day. also is very into bingo

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ngo is like a hook of the top top level to me

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clapping hook spelling hook is it these spoke

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to me as a little guy but in terms of first like

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pop song or song on the radio or song that i

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like was i was really into little willie by the

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suite um which i don't Even now, I'm not sure

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what it's about. I have theories about what it's

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about. And at the time, because a lot of pop

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songs, you grow up and you think, ooh, it's about

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that, I think. And that was one later I thought

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it was about something else. But as a kid, I

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just thought it was about, like, a kid named

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Little Willie who was causing problems. I think

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one thing that's... is like a signifier of a

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great song or just great art in general is like

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when the meaning changes with you as you grow

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ah the example i always use is like the sopranos

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like i was like in college when the sopranos

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was on so i was i was like into the ultra violence

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and the gangster and then i re -watched it again

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as an older but more mature human being and you

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realize he's the villain. He's actually not anything

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to look up to at all. And great songs, you ascribe

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your own meaning to them anyway. Are you talking

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about that as you mature, the thing seems different

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to you? Is that what you're talking about? I

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think it's both, right? I think it's both that

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and also... The meaning is abstract to begin

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with anyway. The songwriter might always have

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an intention when they write a song, but once

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they put it out there, that doesn't really mean

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that much anymore, I think. As much as they might

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want it to, people are going to put their own

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meaning on it, no matter what. And I think great

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art is, whether it's a song or a TV show or a

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movie or even a game, It's something that, like,

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that you're, what you're putting onto it, like,

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changes as you change. And it doesn't, it's fluid.

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And it, in a way that, like, maybe that song

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when you were a kid was just, like, a fun pop

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song. Maybe later it became something more meaningful.

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Or even maybe something, like, you're like, oh,

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maybe that's a cautionary tale. Just depending

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on the song. I don't know if Little Willie did

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all those things for me. But I know what you

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mean. I, a few years ago, went for a late night

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walk. And I left the CD player on, because I

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have a CD player. I put it on, like, it's a five

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disker, that kind. Remember that kind? Yeah,

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yeah. And I had various discs in there. I didn't

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even remember what I had in there, but I just

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hit play and I went for a walk. I was gone for

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an hour or something. And I came back and as

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I came in, it was God by John Lennon. The last

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song or basically the last song on Plastic Ono

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Band, his first solo album. And this is when

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you're in high school and they go, oh, Plastic

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Ono Band is so great. You're in college and you're

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going around telling people, oh, yeah, Plastic

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Ono Band is so great. Because you've been told

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that it is. But you're a fan of the Beatles and,

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like, the kind of the youthful energy of the

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Beatles. That kind of, like, unhinged creativity

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of the Beatles is what's exciting to you. And

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then you get to Plastic Ono Band, which has this

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kind of really simplistic instrumentation. I

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don't know if you know the record. Yeah, it's

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one of my all -time favorites. So it's known

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as, like, his Primal Scream record. Yeah. and

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so you act like you like it or you act like you

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understand it but you're like 20 you don't know

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what the fuck he's talking about this guy and

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so for whatever reason the song i had heard dozens

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and dozens if not hundreds of times i come in

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from the walk and now i'm older now and and he's

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laying out this thing of what he fucking doesn't

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believe and He's this guy's John Lennon. And

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I was somehow like so overwhelmed for the first

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time with the meaning of what he was putting

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forth here is that he did all this stuff and

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he doesn't believe in fucking anything. He doesn't

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believe in anything. And he's alone. And then

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like, he goes, it just believes in me. And then

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like, you can see like Yoko on the piano bench,

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like he goes, okay, Yoko and me, he includes

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her, but really he's saying. After all that,

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he believes in nothing, and he's alone. And for

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whatever, when you listen to that when you're

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17, you can't get crushed by it. You can't get

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crushed by that. You listen to that later, and

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you just get swamped. It was like a tsunami of

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feeling overcame me in a way. It was like a once

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-in -a -lifetime listen to that song. I can't

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put it on now and have that same experience,

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but it was such a once -in -a -lifetime experience.

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of listening to a song where it's enormity got

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me once. Yeah, I totally get what you mean. When

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was the first time you really felt, like, overwhelmed

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by a song like that? Maybe not to that scale,

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but really connected emotionally with a song?

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The first time. I don't know. What do you still

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remember? I feel like I... There were definitely

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times when I felt transported in some kind of

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way. A lot of it was different than listening

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to God in the sense that I wasn't aware consciously

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of what was happening to me. So when I was a

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little kid, I was raised in this kind of extreme

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Christianity. a milieu which would be now referred

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to as maga or i had that kind of family that

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kind of childhood and a really kind of extreme

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form of a christianity really based on hell really

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based on punishment really based on the fire

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and brimstones on sin and stuff you can do your

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best but you're probably not gonna make it and

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anyway the rapture's coming so you're fucked

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anyway and you're like 10. So I had this, like,

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radio, and it was shaped like Superman, right?

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It was, like, the top part of Superman. I don't

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know if we're on video, but I'm... Yeah, yeah,

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yeah. So this will... I think we'll probably

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release it both ways, so there'll be an audio

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-only version, and I'll put the video up, too,

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if you're going to, yeah. It's not important

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to see the shape, but anyway, it was, like...

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So I had this AM radio, and I was, like... Zooming

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it around the dial. I think it was AM. Because

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the next thing that happened was I found myself

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going past Back in Black by ACDC, right? And

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I knew it was satanic. There wasn't any confusion

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on my part. I had been to many youth services

00:16:35.779 --> 00:16:39.600
where they talked about backward basking or just

00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:44.360
devil's message and rock and roll. Here's ACDC,

00:16:44.620 --> 00:16:50.620
one of the main offenders of the genre. But I

00:16:50.620 --> 00:16:53.879
was like, I felt like I was pinned like a butterfly

00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:59.139
to a box or whatever. And I could not change

00:16:59.139 --> 00:17:02.200
the channel. And I was like, what? And I could

00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:06.000
feel the power of Satan, or whatever it was,

00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:08.980
coursing through me. And I tried to fight it

00:17:08.980 --> 00:17:11.539
off, man. I tried to fight it off, but the power

00:17:11.539 --> 00:17:14.710
of rock and roll. or whatever. It was too, it

00:17:14.710 --> 00:17:17.529
was too much. It was too much for me. And it

00:17:17.529 --> 00:17:19.769
was like an emotional, spiritual, I don't know

00:17:19.769 --> 00:17:21.869
what kind of thing it was, but it was scary.

00:17:22.150 --> 00:17:25.470
It was exhilarating. I didn't tell anybody about

00:17:25.470 --> 00:17:28.470
it. It was, it was like one of those things.

00:17:28.529 --> 00:17:31.390
So I'd say that that's the first time that kind

00:17:31.390 --> 00:17:35.230
of thing happened to me. Yeah. No, that's awesome.

00:17:35.869 --> 00:17:39.069
I would honestly like, this is not blowing smoke.

00:17:39.109 --> 00:17:43.259
I would say that your first record, Did that

00:17:43.259 --> 00:17:46.099
to me as a teenager. Oh, no. Fuck yeah, man.

00:17:47.359 --> 00:17:50.799
No, so I got to see you open for a band called

00:17:50.799 --> 00:17:54.519
The Marvelous Three several times. Several times.

00:17:54.579 --> 00:17:56.900
Me and my friends, like, my friends were all

00:17:56.900 --> 00:17:59.460
in college, and they, like, kidnapped me with

00:17:59.460 --> 00:18:02.680
my mom's permission. And we, like, followed you

00:18:02.680 --> 00:18:07.779
for, like, five days from Charleston. I don't

00:18:07.779 --> 00:18:11.529
even remember what days were. But I saw you several

00:18:11.529 --> 00:18:16.069
times. The moment I remember, I'm almost positive

00:18:16.069 --> 00:18:20.970
you were there for in Pensacola. Okay. Where

00:18:20.970 --> 00:18:24.150
I end up in the bathroom. And I actually was

00:18:24.150 --> 00:18:26.769
there the day that Butch, like, tore his Achilles

00:18:26.769 --> 00:18:29.849
tendon. Okay. I just happened to be at that show.

00:18:30.910 --> 00:18:34.269
And I told him about it in the bathroom in Pensacola.

00:18:34.269 --> 00:18:36.230
And he, like, pulled it. He, like, showed me

00:18:36.230 --> 00:18:39.009
his scar. Oh, wow. And then he starts singing

00:18:39.009 --> 00:18:42.049
Allison in the bathroom. And you walked in, and

00:18:42.049 --> 00:18:44.170
I'm pretty sure you started Allison by Elvis

00:18:44.170 --> 00:18:48.269
Costello. And I'm pretty sure I have a very,

00:18:48.309 --> 00:18:51.150
like, vivid memory of the two of y 'all, like,

00:18:51.250 --> 00:18:53.750
singing Allison in the bathroom. Him with one

00:18:53.750 --> 00:18:57.369
boot on, by the way. I don't remember that, but

00:18:57.369 --> 00:19:00.890
in no way do I doubt it. I do doubt it even slightly,

00:19:01.190 --> 00:19:06.049
yeah. But it was just, like, it was, like, my

00:19:06.049 --> 00:19:08.430
favorite band talks a lot about how rock and

00:19:08.430 --> 00:19:10.490
roll saved their life as a teenager, and, like,

00:19:10.490 --> 00:19:12.569
y 'all were one of those bands for me, and it

00:19:12.569 --> 00:19:16.190
was just that unexhilarating, I almost think

00:19:16.190 --> 00:19:17.930
of it as, like, controlled chaos, because it

00:19:17.930 --> 00:19:21.089
is a little scary, but you're also, like, you're

00:19:21.089 --> 00:19:24.710
going to survive it. You might get damaged. Something

00:19:24.710 --> 00:19:28.839
happens. I mean, these things are transformational.

00:19:28.980 --> 00:19:32.720
And it took me a long time to get, and I'm not,

00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:35.339
to get through my kind of Christian upbringing.

00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:39.579
And rock and roll was like essential for that.

00:19:39.799 --> 00:19:42.400
Because it's, you read about, you hear about

00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:44.500
like John Lennon and his like bigger than God

00:19:44.500 --> 00:19:49.119
thing or whatever. And you start having theories

00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:52.170
about it. theory about that's why they called

00:19:52.170 --> 00:19:54.890
their label Apple, because it was like the apple

00:19:54.890 --> 00:19:57.930
from Adam and Eve, and it's like the fruit of

00:19:57.930 --> 00:20:03.369
knowledge, and they can set you free from this,

00:20:03.390 --> 00:20:07.250
I don't know, religious tyranny. It doesn't really

00:20:07.250 --> 00:20:11.190
do that, but it was important for me to trade

00:20:11.190 --> 00:20:14.650
kind of the nonsense of Christianity for the,

00:20:14.750 --> 00:20:16.849
I think, preferable nonsense of rock and roll.

00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:20.859
It's also interesting when you discover something

00:20:20.859 --> 00:20:25.480
that you love immediately, that takes you over

00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:27.700
like that. But it's something that you've been

00:20:27.700 --> 00:20:33.059
told is wrong your whole life. What did that

00:20:33.059 --> 00:20:36.819
feel like? Do you remember how... It was a process.

00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:41.420
Because on the one hand, as when you're a kid,

00:20:41.460 --> 00:20:44.710
rock and roll is... oh they must be like on so

00:20:44.710 --> 00:20:46.990
much drugs they don't know what's going on and

00:20:46.990 --> 00:20:49.430
then but then as it's presented to you at church

00:20:49.430 --> 00:20:52.950
or wherever about how like you take the back

00:20:52.950 --> 00:20:55.230
cover and you put a mirror here and you look

00:20:55.230 --> 00:20:58.089
at it you can see that and like it has all this

00:20:58.089 --> 00:21:02.190
meaning all these symbols all this like stuff

00:21:02.190 --> 00:21:05.690
backwards it's like the most meaning in the world

00:21:05.690 --> 00:21:09.630
is being put on into these records and like that

00:21:09.630 --> 00:21:11.269
it had a whole hierarchy of things how things

00:21:11.269 --> 00:21:17.069
worked It was very interesting to me. I have

00:21:17.069 --> 00:21:19.089
no doubt that the way that it was presented to

00:21:19.089 --> 00:21:21.950
me is having so much power, having so much intricate

00:21:21.950 --> 00:21:25.069
meaning, that these things ultimately were attractive

00:21:25.069 --> 00:21:29.710
to me as much as they were cautionary. Once I,

00:21:29.789 --> 00:21:33.309
like, my mom divorced this Canadian dude that

00:21:33.309 --> 00:21:35.589
she was marrying. We got, for the first time,

00:21:35.609 --> 00:21:38.150
could listen to, like, rock music. We could keep

00:21:38.150 --> 00:21:41.180
it, like, down. We could watch TV. That was for

00:21:41.180 --> 00:21:44.759
the first time. And then I had a friend who was

00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:49.200
really knowledgeable about music. And so it took

00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:51.500
me a while. What's that? Was that friend like

00:21:51.500 --> 00:21:53.720
a little older than you? Yeah, only like a year

00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:55.720
or something. But yeah. Yeah, but usually the

00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:58.880
trend I found is it's always like an older brother

00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:02.019
or like an older friend. Like somebody that's

00:22:02.019 --> 00:22:05.400
like just a little bit. Yeah. Way cooler than

00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:08.440
me for sure. Right, right. I remember because

00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:11.369
I... He was the first person that told me that

00:22:11.369 --> 00:22:15.130
the Beatles version of Helter Skelter was heavier

00:22:15.130 --> 00:22:17.369
than the Motley Crue version of Helter Skelter.

00:22:17.829 --> 00:22:20.509
And I was like, that concept was just so bizarre

00:22:20.509 --> 00:22:24.950
to me. But you're like 13 and you go, wow, the

00:22:24.950 --> 00:22:28.529
Beatles are heavier than Motley Crue. Wow. And

00:22:28.529 --> 00:22:31.269
I think it took me a long time to realize how

00:22:31.269 --> 00:22:34.970
heavy czar really can get sometimes. No, really.

00:22:35.849 --> 00:22:38.630
It was like when I was. When I was a teenager,

00:22:38.890 --> 00:22:46.029
it was like poppy. And it is. It's like definitely

00:22:46.029 --> 00:22:49.369
got like that bubblegum pop thing that you were

00:22:49.369 --> 00:22:53.549
talking about. But especially I've been listening

00:22:53.549 --> 00:22:57.210
to it. And I never stopped. I remember last year

00:22:57.210 --> 00:23:00.190
I was driving back from New Orleans with a buddy

00:23:00.190 --> 00:23:02.890
of mine. And you hadn't even announced this reissue

00:23:02.890 --> 00:23:05.029
or anything. And I was like, man, check this

00:23:05.029 --> 00:23:07.920
band out. And he loved it, man. We listened to

00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:09.500
the whole record on the way back. But I've been

00:23:09.500 --> 00:23:13.279
listening to it again on vinyl. Cool. And first

00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:16.279
of all, it ages amazingly well. Great. That's

00:23:16.279 --> 00:23:19.160
great to hear. And so does Band Girls Money,

00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:22.099
I think. You know, sometimes you go back and

00:23:22.099 --> 00:23:23.880
you listen to the music that you were into as

00:23:23.880 --> 00:23:28.140
a teenager and you're like, ooh, fuck. And I've

00:23:28.140 --> 00:23:31.099
experienced that occasionally. Sure. But it's

00:23:31.099 --> 00:23:33.460
really not. Give me an example of what you mean

00:23:33.460 --> 00:23:36.150
where you went back and you went, ooh. Oh, gosh.

00:23:37.150 --> 00:23:41.549
I had LeBiscuit's Significant Other, man. But

00:23:41.549 --> 00:23:44.210
I'm from Florida, and it had a ProAdvisor sticker.

00:23:44.230 --> 00:23:45.470
You can't skip that, man. You can't skip that.

00:23:46.130 --> 00:23:48.970
Whenever I go back, I'm always like, I was always

00:23:48.970 --> 00:23:53.829
like, I was right. I'm 99. I will say most of

00:23:53.829 --> 00:23:56.170
the time I have. I went and saw Marvelous 3 at

00:23:56.170 --> 00:23:59.509
their reunion show last year, and fuck yeah,

00:23:59.569 --> 00:24:01.349
I was right about that. They're insane, yeah.

00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:06.299
Most of the music I loved as a kid, Ben Folds

00:24:06.299 --> 00:24:09.980
was somebody I was really into as a kid. Ben

00:24:09.980 --> 00:24:14.779
Folds 5 and his solo stuff. He's proved me right

00:24:14.779 --> 00:24:18.019
plenty of times. So I think most of the time

00:24:18.019 --> 00:24:21.779
that's true for me too. I can't really think

00:24:21.779 --> 00:24:23.960
of another example, and I probably got that CD

00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:27.660
because I ended up working in the store that

00:24:27.660 --> 00:24:29.579
I bought it at. I remember where I bought it,

00:24:29.640 --> 00:24:32.809
but it was... Most of the appeal at that time

00:24:32.809 --> 00:24:35.269
was it had a parental advisory sticker on it.

00:24:36.130 --> 00:24:38.849
Like, it was something our parents didn't want

00:24:38.849 --> 00:24:42.170
us to listen to. The Matrix soundtrack, I think

00:24:42.170 --> 00:24:44.609
I bought for the same reason. But that record

00:24:44.609 --> 00:24:48.309
fucking rules. I've never even heard it. Yeah,

00:24:48.349 --> 00:24:50.369
I'll check that out. Yeah, the original Matrix

00:24:50.369 --> 00:24:52.450
soundtrack has some really good songs on it.

00:24:52.470 --> 00:24:55.170
I'm not going to lie. It's fucking good. The

00:24:55.170 --> 00:24:57.670
South Park movie, I was obsessed with that soundtrack,

00:24:57.789 --> 00:25:00.630
too. I don't think I've ever even seen that movie.

00:25:01.099 --> 00:25:04.119
Oh, gosh. I don't know. I don't know if your

00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:08.720
upbringing can handle it, Jeff. Look, I'm a Simpsons

00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:17.460
guy. Always was. South Park. It's kind of like

00:25:17.460 --> 00:25:20.519
the Beatles or the Stones. Simpsons or South

00:25:20.519 --> 00:25:23.700
Park. And, yeah, some people can do both a little

00:25:23.700 --> 00:25:25.579
bit, but everybody's always got a preference

00:25:25.579 --> 00:25:30.759
of one or the other. So when did you start? Realizing

00:25:30.759 --> 00:25:33.180
you wanted to write songs, and when did you start

00:25:33.180 --> 00:25:35.180
writing songs? Instead of just being like, I

00:25:35.180 --> 00:25:36.920
love music, when you were like, I want to make

00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:41.140
music. I was a freshman in college, and if there's

00:25:41.140 --> 00:25:43.880
somebody in England listening to this, I was

00:25:43.880 --> 00:25:50.759
in university, in uni. Right, yes. And I had

00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:55.779
been told a bunch that you can do whatever you

00:25:55.779 --> 00:26:02.099
want to do in your life. And we were on acid.

00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:06.680
I guess I took that as a permission to take acid.

00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:09.660
And me and some friends, and I was running around

00:26:09.660 --> 00:26:11.980
this park, and I had long hair for the first

00:26:11.980 --> 00:26:15.059
time. And as I was running, kind of the hair

00:26:15.059 --> 00:26:17.720
was like kind of flopping on my shoulders a little

00:26:17.720 --> 00:26:22.119
bit. And I said, you can do whatever you want.

00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:26.000
What do you want to do? And I said, I want to

00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:29.089
rock. And I came back to my friends. And I said,

00:26:29.190 --> 00:26:33.470
I want to be a musician. And they said, oh. So

00:26:33.470 --> 00:26:39.990
I told my dad I wanted a guitar. And for my 18th

00:26:39.990 --> 00:26:44.150
birthday, he sent me a guitar, a really cheap

00:26:44.150 --> 00:26:48.910
acoustic guitar, and a cake. And a cake, and

00:26:48.910 --> 00:26:52.170
I don't know, it had a bullet on the top of the

00:26:52.170 --> 00:26:55.289
cake. I was 18, because I was 18, and a book

00:26:55.289 --> 00:26:57.009
with a bullet referenced. Do you know that song?

00:26:57.480 --> 00:27:00.440
18 with a bullet? I don't think that I do. Okay.

00:27:01.279 --> 00:27:06.119
Maybe if I heard it. It's a 70s almost novelty

00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:09.839
song with a lot of puns about records and relationships.

00:27:10.500 --> 00:27:13.779
But it's more like a throwback to early 60s kind

00:27:13.779 --> 00:27:16.799
of song. Anyway, he sent me a guitar and a cake

00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:21.660
with a bullet in it. And I started learning how

00:27:21.660 --> 00:27:25.720
to play guitar through... I got a Beatles songbook

00:27:25.720 --> 00:27:27.920
and it had a picture of the chords that you can

00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:31.359
make. And I would like, that's how I learned

00:27:31.359 --> 00:27:33.220
how to make the chords. You put your fingers

00:27:33.220 --> 00:27:36.400
in that shape and the Beatles in those books

00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:40.380
use a lot of sevens. So like for the first couple

00:27:40.380 --> 00:27:41.519
of years, when I would write songs, I'd have

00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:44.000
a lot of sevens in them because I knew how to

00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:45.759
make those chords and the Beatles used them all

00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:49.099
the time. But, and now I forget to put sevens

00:27:49.099 --> 00:27:52.819
in. And I wonder, cause like, I thought that

00:27:52.819 --> 00:27:55.390
would be really great. teacher of how, like,

00:27:55.390 --> 00:27:57.410
songs are put together, how chord progressions

00:27:57.410 --> 00:28:00.309
work, all that kind of stuff. And it really was

00:28:00.309 --> 00:28:02.569
helpful, but it took me a long time to stop making

00:28:02.569 --> 00:28:05.609
so many, to stop putting so many sevens into

00:28:05.609 --> 00:28:09.750
my song. And now you said you forget now. I forget

00:28:09.750 --> 00:28:13.910
to put sevens in. I go, G. And I go, no, don't

00:28:13.910 --> 00:28:16.730
you mean G, seven? Like, the only thing I routinely

00:28:16.730 --> 00:28:19.150
do is B seven for whatever reason, which that's,

00:28:19.190 --> 00:28:20.970
like, the hardest one to make. I don't know.

00:28:21.710 --> 00:28:24.789
So did you... Are you entirely self -taught,

00:28:24.809 --> 00:28:28.569
or did you eventually get music lessons of some

00:28:28.569 --> 00:28:34.410
sort? I played cello and French horn in elementary

00:28:34.410 --> 00:28:37.789
school, so I did have that. So you had some music

00:28:37.789 --> 00:28:41.029
theory a little bit? A little bit. I can read

00:28:41.029 --> 00:28:44.250
music extremely slowly, you know what I mean?

00:28:44.589 --> 00:28:49.470
If you were to give me your new symphony, I would

00:28:49.470 --> 00:28:51.210
look at it. I couldn't be one of those guys who

00:28:51.210 --> 00:28:53.849
goes, this is brilliant. I'd have to, like...

00:28:53.849 --> 00:28:57.569
Right. Yeah, no, I sing in a choir, and that's

00:28:57.569 --> 00:29:02.490
about my level of, like, music knowledge. I feel

00:29:02.490 --> 00:29:05.549
like that's probably where you were when you

00:29:05.549 --> 00:29:10.289
left elementary school. Yeah. Yeah. And so much...

00:29:10.289 --> 00:29:14.089
I wish that I had more of those older friends

00:29:14.089 --> 00:29:16.490
then, say, like, at the beginning of college.

00:29:16.509 --> 00:29:19.339
I wish I had more cooler... dudes that were in

00:29:19.339 --> 00:29:22.819
bands to like show us how to do it because we

00:29:22.819 --> 00:29:25.759
like just we're just like friends that like let's

00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:28.980
try this and and i wish that there had been a

00:29:28.980 --> 00:29:32.700
larger group of cooler kids showing the younger

00:29:32.700 --> 00:29:36.380
kids how to do it or maybe i don't wish that

00:29:36.380 --> 00:29:39.140
i don't know but we didn't have that and so like

00:29:39.140 --> 00:29:42.099
the first time we ever played in college whatever

00:29:42.099 --> 00:29:45.259
we had like the vocals and two guitars coming

00:29:45.259 --> 00:29:47.420
out of the same amp because it had four inputs

00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:51.519
This thing can take four things. Not realizing

00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:54.900
that it only would do whatever the loudest one

00:29:54.900 --> 00:29:59.960
was at the time. Oh, gotcha. So where did you

00:29:59.960 --> 00:30:04.319
grow up, Jeff? Long Beach, California. And where

00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:07.519
were you in university at the time? UC Santa

00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:12.000
Barbara. Okay. So did you just start a band right

00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:15.200
then? You took a trip and you're like, I'm going

00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:17.380
to be a musician. And did you basically just...

00:30:17.799 --> 00:30:21.380
Start a band the next day. Did you already have

00:30:21.380 --> 00:30:23.779
it? I didn't know how to play anything. I didn't

00:30:23.779 --> 00:30:27.740
have a guitar or anything. Yeah. I should also

00:30:27.740 --> 00:30:33.339
mention that they're in the dorms. And I'm going

00:30:33.339 --> 00:30:36.440
to add, people take drugs in college. I hope

00:30:36.440 --> 00:30:39.059
that's okay for me to mention that. Absolutely.

00:30:39.700 --> 00:30:42.740
We're a big, especially of the psychedelic sort.

00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:45.859
Yeah. We're big advocates and friends of psychedelics

00:30:45.859 --> 00:30:48.740
on this podcast. Okay. I don't know if you can

00:30:48.740 --> 00:30:50.920
share. They can be very therapeutic, and there's

00:30:50.920 --> 00:30:53.180
a lot of benefits. And trippy. Don't forget trippy.

00:30:53.220 --> 00:30:56.819
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing is they have their

00:30:56.819 --> 00:30:59.940
place in making us better people, but they're

00:30:59.940 --> 00:31:04.640
also really fun. Also gets you high. Yeah. Anyway,

00:31:04.859 --> 00:31:06.700
I don't know if this is a psychedelic, but this

00:31:06.700 --> 00:31:10.160
was marijuana. Technically, yes. It was very

00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:15.759
new to me, and I was in my friend's dorm room

00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:18.759
down the hall from mine. and he had an electric

00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:20.359
guitar and it wasn't plugged in i didn't know

00:31:20.359 --> 00:31:25.539
how to play it and um he he put on the help soundtrack

00:31:25.539 --> 00:31:28.559
by the beatles and then he's i'll be right back

00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:29.900
and he left to go i don't know where he went

00:31:29.900 --> 00:31:31.440
to the bathroom or something i was either about

00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:34.400
10 minutes by myself and i had the electric guitar

00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:37.180
and it wasn't plugged in it can make some noise

00:31:37.180 --> 00:31:39.500
i didn't know how to make any of the chords but

00:31:39.500 --> 00:31:41.380
like for the first three songs and the beatles

00:31:41.380 --> 00:31:46.240
a help soundtrack i was like acting like i was

00:31:46.569 --> 00:31:52.210
I was a teenage Stone person, and I was acting

00:31:52.210 --> 00:31:57.549
like I was in the Beatles, and I really liked

00:31:57.549 --> 00:32:02.309
it. I really responded to it, and I really wanted

00:32:02.309 --> 00:32:05.029
to do it. Now, it's not that easy, obviously,

00:32:05.210 --> 00:32:07.049
to just get Stone and start playing. It's a long

00:32:07.049 --> 00:32:09.589
way to the top. It's a long way to the top if

00:32:09.589 --> 00:32:12.549
you want to rock and roll. You start learning

00:32:12.549 --> 00:32:16.539
how and everything, and then... I worked at the

00:32:16.539 --> 00:32:19.819
college newspaper there at UC Santa Barbara,

00:32:19.940 --> 00:32:24.559
The Daily Nexus. And so a bunch of people there,

00:32:24.839 --> 00:32:28.059
Jeff Solomon, who became the bass player, Czar,

00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:32.200
and a few other people there. We formed a band

00:32:32.200 --> 00:32:35.000
called The Brother Steve, which was the band

00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:36.539
that we came up with a couple albums a couple

00:32:36.539 --> 00:32:41.140
years ago. And then we really had a good time.

00:32:41.500 --> 00:32:43.759
playing and seeing this other band that was called

00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:47.859
The Wonderfuls, and that had the drummer was

00:32:47.859 --> 00:32:50.400
Steve Coulter, who later was in Czar, and the

00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:51.940
bass player was Dane Kern, who became the lead

00:32:51.940 --> 00:32:55.099
guitar player in Czar, and then a couple other

00:32:55.099 --> 00:32:57.259
people in that group that we also, so we were

00:32:57.259 --> 00:32:59.259
in, like, a lot of different crossover bands

00:32:59.259 --> 00:33:01.319
with a lot of different themes, sometimes just

00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:03.539
for a couple shows. I definitely remember hearing

00:33:03.539 --> 00:33:05.940
about the Brothers Steve back in the day. That

00:33:05.940 --> 00:33:08.299
was part of the mythology or the lore, yeah.

00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:12.619
So that's How it happened, and in UC Santa Barbara,

00:33:12.700 --> 00:33:14.920
I don't know if this has made it out all the

00:33:14.920 --> 00:33:18.859
way to Florida, but it's a party school. And

00:33:18.859 --> 00:33:22.299
even now, when people find out that I went to

00:33:22.299 --> 00:33:24.140
UC Santa Barbara, it's like the second question

00:33:24.140 --> 00:33:26.660
they ask is, is it a party school? And I say,

00:33:26.700 --> 00:33:29.799
yes, it is. And there's this town where it's

00:33:29.799 --> 00:33:32.599
like almost all students live. It's called Isla

00:33:32.599 --> 00:33:35.920
Vista. And I don't know what it's like now, but

00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:39.349
back then, in the 90s, anybody could... you would

00:33:39.349 --> 00:33:41.170
just walk down the street and there would be

00:33:41.170 --> 00:33:45.829
bands playing kegs and you just wander in and

00:33:45.829 --> 00:33:49.089
here's to watch some band and it was like that

00:33:49.089 --> 00:33:53.390
and i was surprised by how good the songs were

00:33:53.390 --> 00:33:56.630
from these bands and they were all just almost

00:33:56.630 --> 00:33:58.910
all originals there was maybe a few cover bands

00:33:58.910 --> 00:34:02.430
but it was mostly like like themed bands trying

00:34:02.430 --> 00:34:08.159
to sound like i don't know the pixies or Whatever

00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:12.019
kind of thing was happening. It was very indie,

00:34:12.219 --> 00:34:18.559
very artsy, and a lot of fun. And maybe I didn't

00:34:18.559 --> 00:34:20.039
appreciate it enough, although I appreciated

00:34:20.039 --> 00:34:23.559
it quite a lot at the time. Were you writing

00:34:23.559 --> 00:34:26.139
songs before you knew how to play them? Oh, I

00:34:26.139 --> 00:34:28.300
would only play Beatles songs and songs I wrote

00:34:28.300 --> 00:34:32.699
myself, yes. But as you were learning to play,

00:34:32.980 --> 00:34:36.179
were you finding you were writing more than you

00:34:36.179 --> 00:34:41.460
could? play or was it you were writing like and

00:34:41.460 --> 00:34:44.719
being able to play it like in parallel did your

00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:47.599
guitar playing limit your songwriting oh absolutely

00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:50.780
there i would at first i would write songs that

00:34:50.780 --> 00:34:54.059
had pauses in them so i could rearrange my fingers

00:34:54.059 --> 00:34:56.840
to the next chord that takes a long time and

00:34:56.840 --> 00:35:00.619
i'm not like my fingers don't bend the right

00:35:00.619 --> 00:35:03.699
way as they say no one says that but that's what

00:35:03.699 --> 00:35:10.309
happens but And I did not do the high school,

00:35:10.510 --> 00:35:13.030
come home after school, do scales for two hours

00:35:13.030 --> 00:35:15.969
thing. I did not do any of that stuff. I had

00:35:15.969 --> 00:35:22.409
no readiness at all for performing live. But

00:35:22.409 --> 00:35:26.449
luckily, the scene was such that that was an

00:35:26.449 --> 00:35:32.889
optional thing. And at the time, I had a theory

00:35:32.889 --> 00:35:35.500
that it hasn't changed. which is like the only

00:35:35.500 --> 00:35:38.400
two things that a band needs, the only two requirements

00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:41.440
that it must have are that it has good songs

00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:44.559
and that they're cool. In whatever way they're

00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:47.639
cool, it doesn't matter. It can be a wide range,

00:35:47.800 --> 00:35:51.760
but any kind of expert musicianship or anything

00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:55.719
else is optional. It can be a good add -on. It

00:35:55.719 --> 00:35:59.380
can be, but it's not essential. Yeah, I think,

00:35:59.480 --> 00:36:05.050
yeah. It's all about feeling, right? At what

00:36:05.050 --> 00:36:08.389
age were you guys signed? And when did the band

00:36:08.389 --> 00:36:13.010
solidify as Czar? And did that happen as part

00:36:13.010 --> 00:36:16.110
of the... How did all that go down? Because it

00:36:16.110 --> 00:36:18.329
sounds like you were pretty young. I don't think

00:36:18.329 --> 00:36:20.969
that you're that much older than me. I just think

00:36:20.969 --> 00:36:23.469
that I just happened to catch you when you were

00:36:23.469 --> 00:36:27.750
really young. Yeah. No, I think we were in our

00:36:27.750 --> 00:36:32.030
20s. It wasn't like... And we had definitely...

00:36:33.650 --> 00:36:36.030
Like, Steve had already been signed in this band

00:36:36.030 --> 00:36:39.730
called Bridal High. I remember that band a little

00:36:39.730 --> 00:36:42.750
bit, yeah. And we had all, like, from college.

00:36:43.329 --> 00:36:48.469
I lived in Prague for a couple years, and people

00:36:48.469 --> 00:36:52.389
were living in San Francisco. And then when Dan

00:36:52.389 --> 00:36:56.710
and I, Dan was living in Chico. I'm saying places.

00:36:56.789 --> 00:36:57.989
I don't know if anybody knows where they are.

00:36:58.489 --> 00:37:00.630
They have Google Maps. It's fine. Yeah, come

00:37:00.630 --> 00:37:05.119
on, guys. So he moved down to LA when I came

00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:06.780
back from Prague and we were going to form this

00:37:06.780 --> 00:37:13.139
band. And bit by bit, we got it together. We

00:37:13.139 --> 00:37:18.539
had a few different players at first, but it

00:37:18.539 --> 00:37:22.360
all came together with the crew that we already

00:37:22.360 --> 00:37:26.019
knew each other really well. And we're just friends.

00:37:26.280 --> 00:37:30.579
It was like when we started playing. Like it

00:37:30.579 --> 00:37:35.239
had only been Toiling in Obscurity as that's

00:37:35.239 --> 00:37:39.500
the default thing. And something happened and

00:37:39.500 --> 00:37:41.539
I don't know what it was, but suddenly we were

00:37:41.539 --> 00:37:44.559
confident. We were almost like, it was like,

00:37:44.659 --> 00:37:47.820
oh my God, this is easy. And like we would play

00:37:47.820 --> 00:37:50.059
and people would come and I don't know what happened.

00:37:50.139 --> 00:37:54.059
I don't know what the thing was. But like seemingly

00:37:54.059 --> 00:37:59.099
in like just a few weeks time, we became really.

00:37:59.820 --> 00:38:04.739
hot in town and and suddenly we had management

00:38:04.739 --> 00:38:07.539
labels after us within just which is which is

00:38:07.539 --> 00:38:12.440
literally weeks so was that something that you

00:38:12.440 --> 00:38:15.320
were like hesitant about about how it came on

00:38:15.320 --> 00:38:18.099
or were you just super excited about it all super

00:38:18.099 --> 00:38:22.480
excited like it was transformational it was and

00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:25.619
like just to bring it back to drugs there this

00:38:25.619 --> 00:38:28.519
like the first time you take acid or mushrooms

00:38:28.519 --> 00:38:31.480
whatever you might have an expectation as i did

00:38:31.480 --> 00:38:35.460
that like i would go into another world and not

00:38:35.460 --> 00:38:37.920
necessarily a yellow submarine kind of world

00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:40.760
but like some kind of thing and that but it's

00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:44.000
not like that it's like you see patterns or you

00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:46.400
see whatever but and it's definitely psychedelic

00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:48.820
but it's not like this other world yeah you don't

00:38:48.820 --> 00:38:51.559
see anything that isn't there in some form i

00:38:51.559 --> 00:38:54.239
think i feel like experiences differ a little

00:38:54.239 --> 00:38:57.409
bit on that too but You don't see apparitions.

00:38:58.369 --> 00:39:01.610
No, you don't see apparitions. Yeah. Me and a

00:39:01.610 --> 00:39:04.809
friend definitely watched still figures on this

00:39:04.809 --> 00:39:08.670
towel that were like, it was a running guy. And

00:39:08.670 --> 00:39:15.090
we watched them race. Yeah. For a while. Yes,

00:39:15.090 --> 00:39:19.369
I believe that 100%. Oh, no. This guy, can you

00:39:19.369 --> 00:39:21.989
believe this guy? He's catching up. Don't do

00:39:21.989 --> 00:39:26.789
drugs, kids. They're not fun. I thought that,

00:39:26.789 --> 00:39:30.030
I didn't think this, I just hoped this or expected

00:39:30.030 --> 00:39:33.269
this, that there would be some sort of transformation

00:39:33.269 --> 00:39:37.010
when the band got signed and put out records

00:39:37.010 --> 00:39:39.329
or whatever. I thought that would be like, it

00:39:39.329 --> 00:39:41.429
would be a transformational experience where

00:39:41.429 --> 00:39:44.030
then life would be different and I wouldn't be

00:39:44.030 --> 00:39:48.130
the person that I was before. Or that I would

00:39:48.130 --> 00:39:49.949
be, but some kind of special version of it or

00:39:49.949 --> 00:39:51.989
something. I don't really know. None of that

00:39:51.989 --> 00:39:54.699
happened. I don't know. how I thought it would

00:39:54.699 --> 00:39:58.300
happen or it wasn't conscious but it was an expectation

00:39:58.300 --> 00:40:05.039
and I thought that like I don't know I thought

00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:07.599
something would happen and it's not like that

00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:10.320
and and there is you can watch people race or

00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:15.199
whatever but it's not happening so yeah I I wanted

00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:19.659
to happen and it didn't happen and so I wish

00:40:19.659 --> 00:40:23.289
that I had more focused on that not happening,

00:40:23.369 --> 00:40:26.849
but that's where I was, and that's what I was

00:40:26.849 --> 00:40:30.690
thinking. How much control did you have over

00:40:30.690 --> 00:40:33.909
this first record? Did you feel like you got

00:40:33.909 --> 00:40:36.150
to? Because I've heard this story a million times

00:40:36.150 --> 00:40:41.090
where the band gets signed, and at the end of

00:40:41.090 --> 00:40:42.550
the day, they don't get to put out the record

00:40:42.550 --> 00:40:46.420
that they really wanted to put out. i as a fan

00:40:46.420 --> 00:40:48.739
think this is a record to be really proud of

00:40:48.739 --> 00:40:50.820
and i think y 'all probably feel that way on

00:40:50.820 --> 00:40:53.559
some level too or you wouldn't have been i feel

00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:55.039
like y 'all were instrumental in the reissue

00:40:55.039 --> 00:40:59.239
on some level right yeah and vocal i don't think

00:40:59.239 --> 00:41:01.079
like i don't think that it's just like somebody

00:41:01.079 --> 00:41:05.579
else was like hey no offense no it's a really

00:41:05.579 --> 00:41:11.460
weird thing because we we had like when that

00:41:11.460 --> 00:41:15.710
record came out i was so excited I was so convinced

00:41:15.710 --> 00:41:20.949
that we had done it, that here is this album.

00:41:21.030 --> 00:41:26.630
The only problem, is it too good? Did we make

00:41:26.630 --> 00:41:29.489
an album that was too good? Seriously, I've had

00:41:29.489 --> 00:41:33.230
some half -serious conversations along those

00:41:33.230 --> 00:41:36.389
lines. For those listening that haven't heard

00:41:36.389 --> 00:41:39.289
it, it's a fantastic fucking record to this day.

00:41:39.409 --> 00:41:44.420
It really is. And so I was really surprised when

00:41:44.420 --> 00:41:46.360
it came out and people would say that it was

00:41:46.360 --> 00:41:49.980
overproduced, which there was like, and I've

00:41:49.980 --> 00:41:51.320
said this in a bunch of interviews, but there

00:41:51.320 --> 00:41:53.980
was like maybe a year plus period where I had

00:41:53.980 --> 00:41:56.179
at least one conversation about whether it was

00:41:56.179 --> 00:42:00.420
overproduced every day, sometimes multiple. And

00:42:00.420 --> 00:42:03.380
somebody told that to me across the street once.

00:42:03.420 --> 00:42:05.719
I was walking in Hollywood and somebody goes,

00:42:05.820 --> 00:42:08.440
hey, you're in Czar. And I go, yeah. And they

00:42:08.440 --> 00:42:11.679
go. your record's overproduced and i go okay

00:42:11.679 --> 00:42:15.360
it was like that and i didn't know that because

00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:20.219
we made this on tape we were not everything that's

00:42:20.219 --> 00:42:23.199
on there we did it's not tuned there's no copy

00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:27.539
paste going on there's none of that and we just

00:42:27.539 --> 00:42:30.840
and when it would sound like to me like it wasn't

00:42:30.840 --> 00:42:33.460
right we would just do it again and double everything

00:42:33.460 --> 00:42:37.820
and we just did work work on it and and then

00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:42.900
When it came out, people who were used to us

00:42:42.900 --> 00:42:45.519
live, which it's not like that, it's like a much

00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:52.300
more unhinged, crazy, mistakes aplenty, more,

00:42:52.380 --> 00:42:56.340
what's happening, oh my God, experience rather

00:42:56.340 --> 00:42:59.880
than more of a, we had more comparisons to like

00:42:59.880 --> 00:43:04.059
Boston's first album than I expected. Or even

00:43:04.059 --> 00:43:06.789
the occasional Starship. It sounds like knee

00:43:06.789 --> 00:43:09.769
deep in the hoopla to somebody when we were going

00:43:09.769 --> 00:43:13.369
for this, like sex pistols meets the cars or

00:43:13.369 --> 00:43:15.389
I don't even know what we were like. I don't

00:43:15.389 --> 00:43:18.050
think I'd ever heard anything like it. Oh, I

00:43:18.050 --> 00:43:21.690
was, I think I was like 15, but I really, at

00:43:21.690 --> 00:43:24.349
that point it, it knocked me on my ass. Like

00:43:24.349 --> 00:43:27.369
I was like, and I'm still not sure what I would

00:43:27.369 --> 00:43:31.309
compare it to. Like really. And I'm really surprised

00:43:31.309 --> 00:43:35.829
to hear you say overproduced. I don't think it

00:43:35.829 --> 00:43:38.070
has that reputation so much now. What's really

00:43:38.070 --> 00:43:40.110
weird is that at the time... Yeah, I've never

00:43:40.110 --> 00:43:44.090
even heard that in my head. Yeah. At the time,

00:43:44.090 --> 00:43:47.969
we were fighting to not be considered hair metal

00:43:47.969 --> 00:43:52.769
or glam band, which is so weird to me. I remember

00:43:52.769 --> 00:43:55.949
my brother at the time said only a glam band

00:43:55.949 --> 00:43:58.389
would spend so much time denying they're a glam

00:43:58.389 --> 00:44:05.949
band. but it was like that where and the thing

00:44:05.949 --> 00:44:08.750
is no one says that now now i think if you look

00:44:08.750 --> 00:44:11.670
at it we're a power pop band and nobody was saying

00:44:11.670 --> 00:44:14.289
that at the time no one said here comes some

00:44:14.289 --> 00:44:17.130
power pop it was all like is this glam that was

00:44:17.130 --> 00:44:19.849
the question yeah i think power pop is what i

00:44:19.849 --> 00:44:21.969
would if somebody asked me what y 'all were yeah

00:44:21.969 --> 00:44:24.900
that's what i would call it too yeah One thing

00:44:24.900 --> 00:44:27.539
that I think maybe people, and this actually,

00:44:27.559 --> 00:44:29.539
I think goes back to what you were saying a second

00:44:29.539 --> 00:44:33.460
ago about, was it too good? It never, I've never

00:44:33.460 --> 00:44:36.559
thought it sounded overproduced, but what I have

00:44:36.559 --> 00:44:40.059
always thought was it sounded like it was futuristic.

00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:46.039
Awesome. Like it was like something like teleported

00:44:46.039 --> 00:44:49.539
to us. And it's still, what's interesting is

00:44:49.539 --> 00:44:53.019
it still has that like. You listen to it now,

00:44:53.119 --> 00:44:55.000
even on vinyl, like you're listening to it on

00:44:55.000 --> 00:44:59.760
like a retro medium. Yeah. And it still sounds

00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:04.500
futuristic. And I wonder, maybe that's, maybe

00:45:04.500 --> 00:45:06.260
that's what they missed. Like, maybe that's what

00:45:06.260 --> 00:45:09.559
they were like, Oh, overproduced, but I don't

00:45:09.559 --> 00:45:13.039
have the right word for it. No, that is so interesting

00:45:13.039 --> 00:45:17.000
that you say that because I, at the time, and

00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:19.880
this is again, like I had friends that were making

00:45:19.880 --> 00:45:23.820
records. at the same time we were. And one in

00:45:23.820 --> 00:45:28.579
particular was, just to put this in the temporal

00:45:28.579 --> 00:45:31.579
context of what else was going on, was that there

00:45:31.579 --> 00:45:33.780
was a lot of scratching going on. There was a

00:45:33.780 --> 00:45:35.800
lot of scratching going on even in rock music

00:45:35.800 --> 00:45:39.440
at the time. And that I had a friend tell me

00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:44.019
that I got to get with the times because scratching

00:45:44.019 --> 00:45:47.820
is now just another kind of drum fill. It's just

00:45:47.820 --> 00:45:51.880
an integral part. It's just another thing. And

00:45:51.880 --> 00:45:54.079
I'm like, no, I want to make a record that's

00:45:54.079 --> 00:45:57.519
timeless, that no one would know when it was

00:45:57.519 --> 00:46:01.019
recorded, and no one could say what time it was

00:46:01.019 --> 00:46:05.719
anchored to. So I'm really happy to hear you

00:46:05.719 --> 00:46:09.039
say that. I think you achieved that 100%. Thank

00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:12.179
you very much. Now, I want to say just one more

00:46:12.179 --> 00:46:14.559
thing about the record versus us live, which

00:46:14.559 --> 00:46:16.940
is at the time, it was very common for people

00:46:16.940 --> 00:46:20.900
to... If they saw us first and then bought the

00:46:20.900 --> 00:46:22.820
record, they were disappointed with the record.

00:46:23.119 --> 00:46:25.219
But if they bought the record first and then

00:46:25.219 --> 00:46:28.760
saw us, then they were okay. But it was like,

00:46:28.820 --> 00:46:30.719
they didn't expect us to be so punk rock on stage,

00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:34.360
but it was weird. I would see people get really

00:46:34.360 --> 00:46:36.519
excited and then get the record and then go,

00:46:36.619 --> 00:46:40.300
huh. That's really interesting because I think

00:46:40.300 --> 00:46:43.900
I heard the record first, but only once on the

00:46:43.900 --> 00:46:47.159
drive up. Okay. To see the first show, first

00:46:47.159 --> 00:46:50.420
time I saw you, like, my friend that kidnapped

00:46:50.420 --> 00:46:54.659
me. And I think it was Atlanta, like, maybe was

00:46:54.659 --> 00:46:56.980
the first time. If that was with the Marvelous

00:46:56.980 --> 00:46:59.559
Three, then that was, like, a crazy show, right,

00:46:59.639 --> 00:47:01.860
as I remember. Yeah, and all that whole tour

00:47:01.860 --> 00:47:06.019
was crazy. Oh, awesome. It was, yeah, it was

00:47:06.019 --> 00:47:11.199
mayhem. And from the first note of y 'all. And

00:47:11.199 --> 00:47:15.050
so I think for me, I actually. I heard the record

00:47:15.050 --> 00:47:18.610
once, right? Then saw you live. Then probably

00:47:18.610 --> 00:47:20.650
listened to the record like two or three times

00:47:20.650 --> 00:47:23.690
on the drive to the next show and saw you again

00:47:23.690 --> 00:47:27.590
the next day or two days later. And so I had

00:47:27.590 --> 00:47:30.170
this like layering of hearing the record, seeing

00:47:30.170 --> 00:47:36.570
you live where I'm not even sure now I can remember.

00:47:37.579 --> 00:47:40.659
What was different about listening? Because it's

00:47:40.659 --> 00:47:42.699
like listening to the record teleports me back

00:47:42.699 --> 00:47:45.579
to your show in a way. I'd love to hear more

00:47:45.579 --> 00:47:48.000
about the differences you think between the record

00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:49.719
and what you sounded like live. Other than just

00:47:49.719 --> 00:47:51.699
like more mistakes or sloppier. I think like

00:47:51.699 --> 00:47:54.860
that whole tour was a little sloppy. But at scale.

00:47:55.079 --> 00:47:58.539
But it was at scale. Like we might do a song.

00:47:58.719 --> 00:48:02.769
We might do. We were. like the bands that we

00:48:02.769 --> 00:48:04.789
were really influenced by in terms of like our

00:48:04.789 --> 00:48:07.429
live thing where these bands were like you didn't

00:48:07.429 --> 00:48:09.389
know what was going to happen next right there

00:48:09.389 --> 00:48:13.210
was like thoughts about if you're going to be

00:48:13.210 --> 00:48:16.250
playing guitar you shouldn't be so comfortable

00:48:16.250 --> 00:48:19.329
like to do a show where you didn't make a mistake

00:48:19.329 --> 00:48:22.570
was like you weren't doing your job right you

00:48:22.570 --> 00:48:24.429
should always be like right there at the edge

00:48:24.429 --> 00:48:28.530
of your ability right and and so with some things

00:48:28.530 --> 00:48:32.420
we were doing that but some of our like harmony

00:48:32.420 --> 00:48:36.340
ability or some of our other things are we should

00:48:36.340 --> 00:48:38.699
maybe not be doing that at the edge of our of

00:48:38.699 --> 00:48:41.519
our of what it was what was possible we should

00:48:41.519 --> 00:48:44.519
maybe be a little more reliable but that said

00:48:44.519 --> 00:48:48.099
i mean you get out there and whatever happens

00:48:48.099 --> 00:48:51.579
and i think that i know i had a different idea

00:48:51.579 --> 00:48:54.579
of what the life thing that is that's a moment

00:48:54.579 --> 00:48:57.980
that you put out and then the album is something

00:48:57.980 --> 00:49:00.619
that is permanent that kind of exists always

00:49:00.619 --> 00:49:03.260
the same way and they that they're two different

00:49:03.260 --> 00:49:06.480
forms and they shouldn't be necessarily have

00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:09.800
the same values a lot of like famous live albums

00:49:09.800 --> 00:49:11.920
turned out to be that they they're not live at

00:49:11.920 --> 00:49:17.440
all or only a little bit live and so i think

00:49:17.440 --> 00:49:20.579
that i really don't know but i know that our

00:49:20.579 --> 00:49:26.150
energy is is sloppy and punky live and that The

00:49:26.150 --> 00:49:31.489
record is polished, and we do the same thing

00:49:31.489 --> 00:49:35.889
every time. I was going to say, but the record's

00:49:35.889 --> 00:49:40.010
still very raw. Oh, awesome! I'm so glad to hear

00:49:40.010 --> 00:49:43.570
that, because we really tried really hard. I

00:49:43.570 --> 00:49:47.250
remember, and this is something I've thought

00:49:47.250 --> 00:49:50.550
about a lot since, is we tried really hard on

00:49:50.550 --> 00:49:54.389
that record. I didn't want to say to myself later,

00:49:55.119 --> 00:49:58.900
Why didn't you try harder? Or why didn't you

00:49:58.900 --> 00:50:01.280
got to make an album and you didn't try your

00:50:01.280 --> 00:50:05.139
best? What are you doing? So I really tried my

00:50:05.139 --> 00:50:09.179
best and really worked. Did y 'all get full creative

00:50:09.179 --> 00:50:11.639
control or did you get some pushback from the

00:50:11.639 --> 00:50:14.579
label about certain aspects? With that in mind,

00:50:14.599 --> 00:50:18.320
it was produced by this guy, Rob Cavallo, right?

00:50:18.420 --> 00:50:21.719
Who was at the time probably most famous for

00:50:21.719 --> 00:50:26.320
Green Day. maybe the Goo Goo Dolls, but mostly

00:50:26.320 --> 00:50:30.119
Green Day at that time. And I remember we were

00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:32.619
having lunch as we were getting signed. We were

00:50:32.619 --> 00:50:35.340
having lunch with the band and our managers and

00:50:35.340 --> 00:50:38.460
some people from the label. And he leaned over

00:50:38.460 --> 00:50:41.099
to me and he said, so you just want to do, we'll

00:50:41.099 --> 00:50:43.059
just plug you in and let you guys go, right?

00:50:43.980 --> 00:50:46.860
And I go, no, let's do a produced album. And

00:50:46.860 --> 00:50:49.019
he goes, you want to do a produced album? I go,

00:50:49.099 --> 00:50:52.510
yeah, let's make like. a produced album like

00:50:52.510 --> 00:50:54.550
they used to. And he goes, huh, interesting.

00:50:54.889 --> 00:50:56.809
I thought I was just going to plug you in and

00:50:56.809 --> 00:50:59.329
let you go. And I'm like, oh, let's make it produced.

00:50:59.489 --> 00:51:03.610
And he goes, oh, okay. So if anything, they wanted

00:51:03.610 --> 00:51:06.869
to push us in a more Green Day -ish kind of direction.

00:51:07.050 --> 00:51:09.590
Yeah, almost like a Steve Albini type recording.

00:51:09.690 --> 00:51:13.090
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I wanted to make a 70s

00:51:13.090 --> 00:51:16.989
record. Oh, yeah. I'm glad you didn't get a lot

00:51:16.989 --> 00:51:20.340
of pushback there. No, and then... Honestly,

00:51:20.519 --> 00:51:25.320
if anything, Rob was supportive, but wasn't there

00:51:25.320 --> 00:51:29.679
a lot. So it was weird because we didn't get

00:51:29.679 --> 00:51:32.179
a lot of pressure to finish up or whatever. They

00:51:32.179 --> 00:51:35.480
gave us a lot of time in the studio, but then

00:51:35.480 --> 00:51:38.159
a lot of it was just us and the engineer, Ken

00:51:38.159 --> 00:51:41.079
Allardyce, where we wouldn't hear from the producer

00:51:41.079 --> 00:51:46.460
for weeks. Or one time we came to the studio

00:51:46.460 --> 00:51:50.769
and he was in there with Lisa Bonet. And, oh,

00:51:51.130 --> 00:51:52.869
can you guys come back at 2? Because he's in

00:51:52.869 --> 00:51:54.849
there with Lisa Bonet. I'm like, this is our

00:51:54.849 --> 00:51:57.329
recording right now. They go, he's in there with

00:51:57.329 --> 00:52:02.829
Lisa Bonet. Wow. That's wild. So was that the

00:52:02.829 --> 00:52:05.150
first tour? Was that the first, when that record

00:52:05.150 --> 00:52:07.030
came out at least? Maybe not the Marvelous 3

00:52:07.030 --> 00:52:08.889
tour, but was that the first time you toured

00:52:08.889 --> 00:52:12.309
as a musician? Yeah. Oh, yeah. The first time,

00:52:12.389 --> 00:52:14.230
no, the first tour we ever went on was with.

00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:16.800
It rained that summer. Oh, my God. And then the

00:52:16.800 --> 00:52:19.739
second tour was the Marvelous 3 tour. Okay. So,

00:52:19.739 --> 00:52:24.159
yeah, we had never... We drove to... I think

00:52:24.159 --> 00:52:27.900
the first show was in Texas. And we got out of

00:52:27.900 --> 00:52:31.719
the van and started unloading the stuff out of

00:52:31.719 --> 00:52:36.519
the van in Texas. At the Dallas whatever. Because

00:52:36.519 --> 00:52:38.300
you didn't have roadies or anything. Like, it

00:52:38.300 --> 00:52:40.539
was just... This is what happened. And then these

00:52:40.539 --> 00:52:42.659
like union guys, these teamsters or whatever,

00:52:42.820 --> 00:52:45.119
come up and say, no, you guys aren't allowed

00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:48.199
to move your equipment. And we're like, we're

00:52:48.199 --> 00:52:51.099
not allowed to move our own equipment. Oh my

00:52:51.099 --> 00:52:54.280
God. And so, and then cut to two shows later

00:52:54.280 --> 00:52:58.539
and we're very comfortable with that. But we

00:52:58.539 --> 00:53:03.199
had no experience with it. The idea of any of

00:53:03.199 --> 00:53:05.900
it, it was like a dream. And, and I know that

00:53:05.900 --> 00:53:10.670
I don't think that the, duran tour did much or

00:53:10.670 --> 00:53:13.510
it certainly not didn't do much positive for

00:53:13.510 --> 00:53:18.909
our outlook but it was great it was so fun it

00:53:18.909 --> 00:53:22.409
was like going on tour and i loved duran and

00:53:22.409 --> 00:53:25.210
like you just go from like clubs to that and

00:53:25.210 --> 00:53:28.969
and then your records coming out because it came

00:53:28.969 --> 00:53:31.670
out while we're on tour with them and it's a

00:53:31.670 --> 00:53:35.070
highly recommended i would highly recommend that

00:53:35.070 --> 00:53:38.230
experience Honestly. If you ever get a chance

00:53:38.230 --> 00:53:40.289
to tour with Duran and have your record come

00:53:40.289 --> 00:53:42.869
out at the same time, then do that thing for

00:53:42.869 --> 00:53:45.170
sure. Do it. Yeah, do it. It might hurt your

00:53:45.170 --> 00:53:47.030
career, but it's a lot of fun. What do you think

00:53:47.030 --> 00:53:49.989
was like disheartening or maybe hurtful about

00:53:49.989 --> 00:53:53.469
it in terms of your career? They're like a band

00:53:53.469 --> 00:53:57.050
that is in like its greatest hits era by then.

00:53:57.449 --> 00:54:02.110
Yeah. And the people going to those shows are

00:54:02.110 --> 00:54:05.570
paying. more money than they would to see us

00:54:05.570 --> 00:54:10.550
in a club. So say somebody did want to come see

00:54:10.550 --> 00:54:12.530
us as we come through town, right? Then they

00:54:12.530 --> 00:54:15.010
got to pay, say, 70 bucks or whatever it was

00:54:15.010 --> 00:54:21.050
back then to see us, play a short set. And then

00:54:21.050 --> 00:54:25.050
say you came to see Duran. By then, at that time,

00:54:25.090 --> 00:54:28.389
maybe if it was 1983 or something, you'd go,

00:54:28.489 --> 00:54:30.690
oh, maybe the opener's going to be cool. But

00:54:30.690 --> 00:54:34.380
by the 2000s, you're seeing Duran. You just want

00:54:34.380 --> 00:54:37.199
to see Hungry Like the Wolf and stuff and not,

00:54:37.239 --> 00:54:38.940
you're not like going, hey, maybe the opener

00:54:38.940 --> 00:54:41.239
is going to be this really cool band. Were you

00:54:41.239 --> 00:54:43.739
playing with the lights on or did they turn off

00:54:43.739 --> 00:54:45.639
the, do you remember? I'm sure you remember.

00:54:45.760 --> 00:54:49.619
Yeah, about half. It was summertime. A lot of

00:54:49.619 --> 00:54:52.260
these, almost all of them were like outdoor amphitheater

00:54:52.260 --> 00:54:54.980
kind of guys. So it was still light outside for

00:54:54.980 --> 00:54:57.420
a lot of them. It seemed like a lot of them were

00:54:57.420 --> 00:55:02.019
also at or near amusement parks. It was like,

00:55:02.159 --> 00:55:06.980
I don't know. You'd come out and they go, you're

00:55:06.980 --> 00:55:08.980
all right. But then you realize that was actually

00:55:08.980 --> 00:55:12.780
just the roller coaster. But it was great. And

00:55:12.780 --> 00:55:16.460
playing for big audiences is a lot easier than

00:55:16.460 --> 00:55:19.559
playing for small audiences. So like you could

00:55:19.559 --> 00:55:23.599
really just go, what's going on this side? And

00:55:23.599 --> 00:55:27.460
they go, I can't hear the people in the back.

00:55:30.250 --> 00:55:33.349
That's easy. How did all that change with your

00:55:33.349 --> 00:55:35.989
second tour with The Marvelous Three, which was

00:55:35.989 --> 00:55:39.849
the first time I ever... But I feel like by then,

00:55:40.150 --> 00:55:42.010
you knew... First of all, you guys knew what

00:55:42.010 --> 00:55:43.710
the fuck you were doing, right? Like, you had

00:55:43.710 --> 00:55:48.449
been... You had it dialed in in terms of your

00:55:48.449 --> 00:55:51.730
showmanship. Yeah. The Marvelous Three tour was

00:55:51.730 --> 00:55:53.869
a really interesting one for us because I remember

00:55:53.869 --> 00:55:57.690
us feeling, like, confident about our stage show.

00:55:58.190 --> 00:56:02.340
And I remember, like... In LA, people would not...

00:56:02.340 --> 00:56:05.500
They wouldn't want to play after us, right? So

00:56:05.500 --> 00:56:09.780
we got cocky on that front. Like, we're so great,

00:56:09.900 --> 00:56:12.840
right? And then the first night we went out and

00:56:12.840 --> 00:56:16.880
we opened for Marvelous 3. And we're like, oh,

00:56:16.900 --> 00:56:20.820
man. Totally not worried about being overshadowed

00:56:20.820 --> 00:56:24.900
by the close of the headliner. And then about

00:56:24.900 --> 00:56:26.920
20 minutes into their show, I remember turning

00:56:26.920 --> 00:56:31.429
to our bass player, Gwendolyn. We have good songs.

00:56:32.090 --> 00:56:36.809
They creamed us. Yeah. I've been, I've really

00:56:36.809 --> 00:56:38.309
looked, and to go back to what we were talking

00:56:38.309 --> 00:56:40.510
about earlier, man, like I've really lucked out

00:56:40.510 --> 00:56:43.210
about some of the music that I've stumbled into

00:56:43.210 --> 00:56:47.469
in my life. There's, they really are, I think

00:56:47.469 --> 00:56:49.510
one of the greatest bands out of that time. And

00:56:49.510 --> 00:56:55.429
their live shows were unmatched. Oh, it was ridiculous

00:56:55.429 --> 00:56:59.210
to see them every night. It's like, I, you go

00:56:59.210 --> 00:57:03.619
on tour with, Duran, and you watch them the first

00:57:03.619 --> 00:57:05.559
two or three nights, and then by night five,

00:57:05.760 --> 00:57:08.000
you're like, yeah, I got it. I don't need to

00:57:08.000 --> 00:57:10.000
see them. I don't need to see the whole show

00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:12.320
tonight. But Marvelous 3, you watched them every

00:57:12.320 --> 00:57:16.679
night. Every night you watched them. Yeah. Yeah,

00:57:16.760 --> 00:57:20.960
I mean, they set the bar really high for me when

00:57:20.960 --> 00:57:25.420
it came to, like, what... And the community and

00:57:25.420 --> 00:57:27.639
the fan base, because I think... At least at

00:57:27.639 --> 00:57:30.179
the shows I was into, the crowds were good to

00:57:30.179 --> 00:57:34.039
y 'all. The crowds liked y 'all. The crowds were

00:57:34.039 --> 00:57:39.760
not hanging out outside or whatever. They would

00:57:39.760 --> 00:57:41.980
get there. And I think by the time, especially

00:57:41.980 --> 00:57:44.659
by the time our shows, because message boards

00:57:44.659 --> 00:57:47.300
were a thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think by

00:57:47.300 --> 00:57:49.420
the time our shows came around, they weren't

00:57:49.420 --> 00:57:52.780
the first shows of the tour. So we knew that

00:57:52.780 --> 00:57:58.049
we were in for a good show the whole night. And,

00:57:58.049 --> 00:58:00.409
yeah, I mean, that tour, I think, got you guys

00:58:00.409 --> 00:58:04.289
a lot of fans. I think a lot of people that saw

00:58:04.289 --> 00:58:09.010
you then would still be excited to see you now

00:58:09.010 --> 00:58:11.389
and see you guys. That's great. I'm so happy

00:58:11.389 --> 00:58:13.090
to hear that because that was the same experience

00:58:13.090 --> 00:58:16.090
for us. So that's awesome. And I'm just lucked

00:58:16.090 --> 00:58:21.039
out with communities. around bands and things

00:58:21.039 --> 00:58:23.320
like that my whole life. The band I'm really,

00:58:23.380 --> 00:58:25.739
that I've followed pretty much since, like, all

00:58:25.739 --> 00:58:29.300
those bands broke up. Like, in 2005, I got into

00:58:29.300 --> 00:58:32.420
a band called the Drive -By Truckers, and I've

00:58:32.420 --> 00:58:34.519
seen them. Their songs, I think, are, like, really

00:58:34.519 --> 00:58:36.179
different than a lot of what other people do,

00:58:36.340 --> 00:58:38.900
but the community that they have around them

00:58:38.900 --> 00:58:42.280
is, like, a big part of it, too. And the Marvelous

00:58:42.280 --> 00:58:45.159
Three, they set the bar really high for me for

00:58:45.159 --> 00:58:48.000
both live performances and for... band community

00:58:48.000 --> 00:58:50.420
where it took a while for me to really be like

00:58:50.420 --> 00:58:54.340
that excited about something again. Yeah, no,

00:58:54.420 --> 00:58:57.619
it's, it's a really, it's the, the, the, the

00:58:57.619 --> 00:59:00.579
devotion of those fans, like anytime they would

00:59:00.579 --> 00:59:02.559
tour, you'd hear like everybody was taking a

00:59:02.559 --> 00:59:06.679
month off to go follow or whatever. And it was

00:59:06.679 --> 00:59:09.960
a community that, that it was fun. And you'd

00:59:09.960 --> 00:59:12.179
get to the next place and you'd see like a lot

00:59:12.179 --> 00:59:14.019
of the same people that were there last night.

00:59:14.199 --> 00:59:18.739
And it was great. And they, Yeah, we definitely

00:59:18.739 --> 00:59:24.199
felt accepted by that group. And there were other

00:59:24.199 --> 00:59:26.400
tours where that didn't happen. So, like, the

00:59:26.400 --> 00:59:29.059
next tour we went on, we opened for Eve Six.

00:59:29.280 --> 00:59:31.179
I don't know if you remember Eve Six. Yeah, yeah.

00:59:31.699 --> 00:59:36.659
Same tonight. Yeah. Dang, interesting. You cited

00:59:36.659 --> 00:59:41.480
their second biggest hit. Oh, yeah, yeah. No

00:59:41.480 --> 00:59:43.900
one knows the name of that song, though. I think

00:59:43.900 --> 00:59:46.900
it's called Inside Out. I don't know. You're

00:59:46.900 --> 00:59:51.280
right. But great guys. We really are still friends

00:59:51.280 --> 00:59:57.360
with those guys. But it's their fans hated us.

00:59:57.420 --> 01:00:01.519
Really? Hated us. Wow. I remember we played.

01:00:01.559 --> 01:00:05.039
We opened for them in Poughkeepsie, New York.

01:00:05.480 --> 01:00:08.139
And it was crowded and everything. And we opened

01:00:08.139 --> 01:00:11.980
with Recalling All Destroyers into I Don't Want

01:00:11.980 --> 01:00:15.280
to Break Up. And it was like seven minutes of.

01:00:16.769 --> 01:00:20.369
absolute rock and roll we were sliding on our

01:00:20.369 --> 01:00:23.730
knees we were harmonized guitar solos it was

01:00:23.730 --> 01:00:27.389
like rock and roll and we slammed to a stop and

01:00:27.389 --> 01:00:29.130
then there was like silence and then somebody

01:00:29.130 --> 01:00:36.150
goes fags and i was just like damn what and so

01:00:36.150 --> 01:00:39.650
like that and that whole tour was like that where

01:00:39.650 --> 01:00:43.010
i hadn't been called thanks so much since eighth

01:00:43.010 --> 01:00:46.570
grade So that actually leads me to a question

01:00:46.570 --> 01:00:50.070
I wanted to ask you about. Like, you were somebody

01:00:50.070 --> 01:00:53.170
that I think one thing that was attractive to

01:00:53.170 --> 01:00:56.389
me about your band in general is y 'all definitely

01:00:56.389 --> 01:01:00.710
didn't stick to, like, heteronormative stereotypes

01:01:00.710 --> 01:01:04.190
or culture. Like, I remember you would wear this,

01:01:04.190 --> 01:01:07.409
like, princess shirt a lot. And I think we even

01:01:07.409 --> 01:01:09.309
had a little nickname for you. We called you

01:01:09.309 --> 01:01:10.750
Princess behind your back. Yeah, I remember that.

01:01:11.489 --> 01:01:15.670
But my point, though, is that. And Butch, I think,

01:01:15.670 --> 01:01:18.210
was somebody that would, you could say, does

01:01:18.210 --> 01:01:20.670
the same thing, but in a very glam rock way.

01:01:20.849 --> 01:01:24.710
Sure. Where I felt like you weren't trying to

01:01:24.710 --> 01:01:28.570
be anybody. Like you were just, and how true

01:01:28.570 --> 01:01:30.849
is that? How much of that was like a persona

01:01:30.849 --> 01:01:33.710
where I'm like, I want to consciously like bend

01:01:33.710 --> 01:01:36.329
gender norms a little bit. And how much of that

01:01:36.329 --> 01:01:38.489
was just like, hey, I like this shirt. I'm going

01:01:38.489 --> 01:01:43.300
to wear this shirt. Yeah, no. That's a psychology

01:01:43.300 --> 01:01:48.920
question that my therapist should have her on

01:01:48.920 --> 01:01:51.960
next time. Brought to you by BetterHelp. H -E

01:01:51.960 --> 01:02:01.079
-L -P. I would say, okay, so in the bands I like,

01:02:01.219 --> 01:02:04.480
The Beatles maybe being an exception, there's

01:02:04.480 --> 01:02:08.500
often a lot of that going on. Bowie, T -Rex,

01:02:08.780 --> 01:02:14.789
just down the line. Exploring that thing is a

01:02:14.789 --> 01:02:18.750
very typical thing for a rock band to do. Coming

01:02:18.750 --> 01:02:23.610
from that point of view, I was following the

01:02:23.610 --> 01:02:26.769
rock and roll tradition, right? Yeah, yeah. A

01:02:26.769 --> 01:02:29.610
lot of this stuff, I wanted just the cliches.

01:02:30.210 --> 01:02:34.269
I know that this is not particularly... I wanted

01:02:34.269 --> 01:02:37.449
the cliches. I wanted a manager with a big old

01:02:37.449 --> 01:02:42.619
cigar. Yeah, yeah. I wanted... I never did the

01:02:42.619 --> 01:02:46.840
heroin addict thing and missed the boat on that.

01:02:47.159 --> 01:02:51.340
Because it would have been... I assumed that

01:02:51.340 --> 01:02:54.960
I would have the heroin album. And I assumed

01:02:54.960 --> 01:02:59.579
I'd have the sober album after that. I assumed

01:02:59.579 --> 01:03:01.239
that these were the things I was going to do.

01:03:01.659 --> 01:03:07.360
But getting into that time was like coming out

01:03:07.360 --> 01:03:11.250
of the 90s. Let me try to explain this the way

01:03:11.250 --> 01:03:14.989
that I feel about it now. Coming out of the 90s,

01:03:15.010 --> 01:03:18.190
I had... When you're a kid in the 80s and then

01:03:18.190 --> 01:03:21.369
you're in college stuff in the 90s, you get used

01:03:21.369 --> 01:03:23.730
to there being a lot of bands that are good.

01:03:24.269 --> 01:03:28.769
You get used to an unlimited number of good bands

01:03:28.769 --> 01:03:33.989
that you can dip into at your own leisure, at

01:03:33.989 --> 01:03:38.500
your own whim. If you want to follow... you don't

01:03:38.500 --> 01:03:41.980
appreciate it you don't like you don't think

01:03:41.980 --> 01:03:43.980
you have it going good but until they like take

01:03:43.980 --> 01:03:46.900
it all away but like at the time all the venues

01:03:46.900 --> 01:03:51.079
closed down and no but you like you still look

01:03:51.079 --> 01:03:54.019
forward to people's albums coming out and anyway

01:03:54.019 --> 01:03:58.840
but at that time rock was just going down and

01:03:58.840 --> 01:04:01.380
it wasn't really doing a lot of good stuff and

01:04:01.380 --> 01:04:05.780
it was the rap metal it was the these things

01:04:05.780 --> 01:04:08.829
coming in And what I would say is that maybe

01:04:08.829 --> 01:04:14.090
a type of MAGA, a type of toxic masculinity that

01:04:14.090 --> 01:04:17.889
is presented as like maybe funny or maybe as

01:04:17.889 --> 01:04:22.389
not gay or something. Like people saw Fight Club

01:04:22.389 --> 01:04:24.650
and it was like they didn't get the memo about

01:04:24.650 --> 01:04:27.309
what that was really about. Oh, what's it about?

01:04:27.809 --> 01:04:31.090
That book was like by a gay man, like an openly

01:04:31.090 --> 01:04:36.000
gay comedian. Like he's, it's very like. making

01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:42.239
fun of that hyper masculine heteronormative culture

01:04:42.239 --> 01:04:45.039
that it's portraying but i think a lot of people

01:04:45.039 --> 01:04:47.980
saw that movie and were like fuck yeah brad but

01:04:47.980 --> 01:04:53.059
that's what started that limp biscuit right like

01:04:53.059 --> 01:04:57.019
the that that hyper masculine macho which is

01:04:57.019 --> 01:04:59.739
where i think like the eve six crowd reaction

01:04:59.739 --> 01:05:03.019
started to come yeah so i and i think that's

01:05:03.340 --> 01:05:07.300
It's kind of that Woodstock 99 kind of approach

01:05:07.300 --> 01:05:10.519
to things, right? But the other side of that

01:05:10.519 --> 01:05:18.059
was this boy band thing and post -Spice Girls

01:05:18.059 --> 01:05:22.440
world. And I really liked that. I really liked

01:05:22.440 --> 01:05:25.539
that music. I really liked the Spice Girls a

01:05:25.539 --> 01:05:29.210
lot. You notice that's not what I said was my

01:05:29.210 --> 01:05:31.590
guilty, like I went back and was wrong about

01:05:31.590 --> 01:05:34.250
when you asked me. I had all that shit, man.

01:05:34.329 --> 01:05:36.530
Yeah. No, I'm with you. I love that bullshit.

01:05:36.909 --> 01:05:41.250
Yeah. And I remember that there was this store

01:05:41.250 --> 01:05:44.889
at the Eagle Rock Mall in L .A. There's an area

01:05:44.889 --> 01:05:48.489
called Eagle Rock. And there's two ways that

01:05:48.489 --> 01:05:50.590
this rock looks like an eagle. It either looks

01:05:50.590 --> 01:05:53.269
like an eagle in flight or it looks like an eagle's

01:05:53.269 --> 01:05:56.090
face without a beak. And then if you want to

01:05:56.090 --> 01:05:59.050
confuse people, you ask them, you'd say that

01:05:59.050 --> 01:06:00.730
you think that it's called Eagle Rock because

01:06:00.730 --> 01:06:04.030
it looks like Randy Meisner was a member of the

01:06:04.030 --> 01:06:06.090
Eagles. Anyway, it doesn't matter. But there

01:06:06.090 --> 01:06:08.170
was a mall there and it had a store called the

01:06:08.170 --> 01:06:10.670
Dollar Dazzle and everything there was a dollar

01:06:10.670 --> 01:06:14.010
and everything there was dazzling. And it was

01:06:14.010 --> 01:06:19.190
all like glittery, like girly stuff or mostly

01:06:19.190 --> 01:06:22.710
that. So I remember they had these bags of...

01:06:23.050 --> 01:06:25.909
plastic hair clips for like toddlers right and

01:06:25.909 --> 01:06:28.849
they had numbers and they had letters and you

01:06:28.849 --> 01:06:30.809
would buy a whole pack because in there would

01:06:30.809 --> 01:06:34.329
be like two that said 666 on them but like in

01:06:34.329 --> 01:06:38.030
in like plastic pink plastic so i would wear

01:06:38.030 --> 01:06:43.030
like 666 hair things in my hair i'd have a glittery

01:06:43.030 --> 01:06:47.250
nail polish i have these very girly things which

01:06:47.250 --> 01:06:52.570
i imagined or wanted or this was very sincere

01:06:53.039 --> 01:06:57.500
i i liked wearing this stuff but i assumed it

01:06:57.500 --> 01:07:00.300
was like it would be like the version of say

01:07:00.300 --> 01:07:04.000
mark boland or something dressing like an early

01:07:04.000 --> 01:07:06.719
70s because i remember i would try to look like

01:07:06.719 --> 01:07:10.380
that for a while i remember i had this fur coat

01:07:11.569 --> 01:07:15.030
and these really big sunglasses and like lipstick.

01:07:15.150 --> 01:07:17.050
And I remember I was getting, I had a fur coat

01:07:17.050 --> 01:07:19.769
and big sunglasses and lipstick on. And we were

01:07:19.769 --> 01:07:21.590
about to go out for the evening to like rock

01:07:21.590 --> 01:07:23.969
club. And the bass player said, you look like

01:07:23.969 --> 01:07:28.690
my mother about to go shopping. Okay. Maybe that's,

01:07:28.690 --> 01:07:30.150
I mean, they all switch it up. So I went more

01:07:30.150 --> 01:07:33.429
in a girly kind of way that it was meant to like

01:07:33.429 --> 01:07:36.230
gender band in the rock and roll tradition. It

01:07:36.230 --> 01:07:40.650
was also sincere. I think you accomplished. And

01:07:40.650 --> 01:07:45.449
I think by making it, like, sincere, it was your

01:07:45.449 --> 01:07:47.929
own version of it instead of it looking like

01:07:47.929 --> 01:07:51.789
you were trying to be, like, some other rock

01:07:51.789 --> 01:07:56.929
god. Like, you were your own version. And I'm

01:07:56.929 --> 01:08:00.610
not, like, I'm an ally, but I'm not, like, I'm

01:08:00.610 --> 01:08:04.969
a straight dude. But I think that gender bending,

01:08:05.050 --> 01:08:07.889
that heteronormative, like, I've always been.

01:08:08.199 --> 01:08:10.739
Like, an outcast or, like, somebody that wasn't

01:08:10.739 --> 01:08:14.719
going to, like, conform to that bullshit. The

01:08:14.719 --> 01:08:18.939
hyper -masculine stuff, right? I really, I think

01:08:18.939 --> 01:08:21.859
I, like, that was something. It was like, you

01:08:21.859 --> 01:08:24.960
were still kicking ass, but you were wearing

01:08:24.960 --> 01:08:27.140
a princess shirt and had glittery nail polish,

01:08:27.180 --> 01:08:29.279
and I fucking loved it. Like, there was just

01:08:29.279 --> 01:08:32.960
something about all of that that was, I think

01:08:32.960 --> 01:08:36.840
you pulled it off. Thanks. You're making me remember

01:08:36.840 --> 01:08:41.199
that. I remember at the time, do you know who

01:08:41.199 --> 01:08:43.399
Raymond Chandler is? He's like a mystery writer

01:08:43.399 --> 01:08:46.579
from the noir era, right? A little bit, yeah.

01:08:46.720 --> 01:08:49.420
I think I've only read one of his books. His

01:08:49.420 --> 01:08:53.840
main detective is Philip Marlowe, L .A. She came

01:08:53.840 --> 01:08:57.180
into my office. And he's really funny, and he

01:08:57.180 --> 01:08:59.859
uses a lot of really good slang in it. I was

01:08:59.859 --> 01:09:01.880
reading an interview with him from back in the

01:09:01.880 --> 01:09:05.079
40s or something, and he says with slang, either

01:09:05.079 --> 01:09:08.760
do classic slang. Where like, it's not of an

01:09:08.760 --> 01:09:11.159
era in particular or make it up yourself. Do

01:09:11.159 --> 01:09:15.539
not do like the slang of the moment. Right. And

01:09:15.539 --> 01:09:18.119
he said, either do classic or make it up yourself.

01:09:18.340 --> 01:09:22.520
And so I, that's what my plan was with the look,

01:09:22.560 --> 01:09:25.579
with my look was to either go classic or make

01:09:25.579 --> 01:09:28.180
it up myself and not to do anything of the moment.

01:09:29.380 --> 01:09:31.819
So that's where it was. It was definitely of

01:09:31.819 --> 01:09:34.819
the moment, but not. Sure. Sure. Players was

01:09:34.819 --> 01:09:37.899
huge, right? Like you. You looked like you walked

01:09:37.899 --> 01:09:42.579
out of Eclair's in a cool way, though, right?

01:09:42.819 --> 01:09:44.979
I think part of that, though, I'm wondering,

01:09:45.060 --> 01:09:47.939
like, was that what allowed you to do it? The

01:09:47.939 --> 01:09:50.359
fact that you're like, I'm a fucking rock star.

01:09:50.520 --> 01:09:53.560
Like, now watch me dress however I want. Watch

01:09:53.560 --> 01:09:55.640
me. I think that's part of it, right? It's like

01:09:55.640 --> 01:10:01.380
this almost like I am whatever I want to be.

01:10:02.399 --> 01:10:05.420
That's all we are anyway, and it's the story

01:10:05.420 --> 01:10:08.369
that we tell. Some people would argue that life

01:10:08.369 --> 01:10:11.090
is just like a performance for our own self,

01:10:11.229 --> 01:10:14.090
right? We're telling a story to ourself. And

01:10:14.090 --> 01:10:17.670
certainly I would like to not be a lot of the

01:10:17.670 --> 01:10:21.689
things that I'm supposed to be or a lot of things

01:10:21.689 --> 01:10:27.630
that being a human being is kind of default is

01:10:27.630 --> 01:10:32.470
embarrassing, I think. Dumb all over, a little

01:10:32.470 --> 01:10:35.390
ugly on the side, as Frank Zappa would say. Yeah.

01:10:35.869 --> 01:10:40.390
and and presenting ourselves as a certain way

01:10:40.390 --> 01:10:43.829
or whatever and trying to be that you know it's

01:10:43.829 --> 01:10:46.810
like whatever persona you have on when you're

01:10:46.810 --> 01:10:48.850
talking to your parents you're talking to some

01:10:48.850 --> 01:10:50.710
people at work you're talking to your best friends

01:10:50.710 --> 01:10:53.350
talk to girlfriend whatever you're doing it's

01:10:53.350 --> 01:10:56.289
a slightly different presentation of who you

01:10:56.289 --> 01:11:02.050
are right and so all of it is some level of performance

01:11:02.050 --> 01:11:07.409
and i think i wanted perhaps there to be some

01:11:07.409 --> 01:11:09.630
kind of breakthrough and become something else,

01:11:09.689 --> 01:11:13.289
but I have yet to do that. I feel like I could

01:11:13.289 --> 01:11:16.329
talk to you for hours. Sure. I don't know if

01:11:16.329 --> 01:11:18.529
you have a little bit more time. I got a little

01:11:18.529 --> 01:11:21.609
bit more time. I'm going to, I want to get, I

01:11:21.609 --> 01:11:23.869
want to be right back though. That sounds perfect.

01:11:23.970 --> 01:11:26.449
Yeah. I want to, I'm going to save what we got

01:11:26.449 --> 01:11:29.529
and that way. Perfect. In case something happens.

01:11:29.590 --> 01:11:31.489
Okay. I'll be right back. All right. Thank you

01:11:31.489 --> 01:11:34.359
so much, Jeff. And we're back. Awesome. Thank

01:11:34.359 --> 01:11:37.300
you for, first of all, just thank you for taking

01:11:37.300 --> 01:11:41.000
the time to do this. This is awesome. I think

01:11:41.000 --> 01:11:43.180
we're having a really cool conversation. Cool.

01:11:43.180 --> 01:11:48.039
Awesome. Thanks for having me. I do take a historical

01:11:48.039 --> 01:11:51.279
perspective. I have a background in history,

01:11:51.420 --> 01:11:56.079
public history, and oral history is where I approach

01:11:56.079 --> 01:12:00.020
these interviews. But I don't expect as much

01:12:00.020 --> 01:12:03.079
of a deep dive as we went to the early years.

01:12:03.520 --> 01:12:07.399
But can you bring us up to speed? What happened

01:12:07.399 --> 01:12:09.579
with the second record? The second record comes

01:12:09.579 --> 01:12:12.500
out. I was working in a record store at the time,

01:12:12.520 --> 01:12:14.800
and we got a promo copy of it. And I didn't even

01:12:14.800 --> 01:12:17.439
know that it was coming out or anything like

01:12:17.439 --> 01:12:20.399
that. And I played that record all the time in

01:12:20.399 --> 01:12:22.359
the store. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. I love that

01:12:22.359 --> 01:12:25.119
record, too. Were you bummed when you first heard

01:12:25.119 --> 01:12:29.380
it? Because a lot of people were. Maybe, like...

01:12:29.640 --> 01:12:33.520
the first or second time, but it grew on me fast,

01:12:33.560 --> 01:12:35.699
if I will. Well, at least you gave it a third

01:12:35.699 --> 01:12:39.680
spin after two disappointing ones. I didn't...

01:12:39.680 --> 01:12:42.899
It wasn't like an overcorrection to what I was

01:12:42.899 --> 01:12:45.220
saying before, or maybe not. I don't know. Who

01:12:45.220 --> 01:12:49.340
knows these things? But, like, it was... As we

01:12:49.340 --> 01:12:54.000
were playing more and more, like, shows, and

01:12:54.000 --> 01:12:57.779
we were getting harder as we were playing, right?

01:12:57.859 --> 01:13:01.300
We were getting more... like shove this guitar

01:13:01.300 --> 01:13:06.659
down your throat kind of intensity in less power

01:13:06.659 --> 01:13:09.720
pop or harmony or whatever kind of thing was.

01:13:10.479 --> 01:13:15.899
And then the person who had signed us at Hollywood

01:13:15.899 --> 01:13:19.039
Records left, and the new person that came in

01:13:19.039 --> 01:13:24.619
really only believed us. He said he only believed

01:13:24.619 --> 01:13:28.199
me when I was at the top of my range. Interesting.

01:13:29.209 --> 01:13:33.390
And he said that there's an aspect of our band

01:13:33.390 --> 01:13:37.170
that that the first record did not capture and

01:13:37.170 --> 01:13:40.970
that the world had turned to face us. The world

01:13:40.970 --> 01:13:44.449
had turned to face us more now. And that because

01:13:44.449 --> 01:13:46.550
you had the kind of the rock is back movement

01:13:46.550 --> 01:13:50.449
strokes and more garage stuff. Right. Yeah, for

01:13:50.449 --> 01:13:53.890
sure. So let's embrace that side of czar because

01:13:53.890 --> 01:13:56.659
that is a side of czar. Let's embrace that side

01:13:56.659 --> 01:13:59.260
and have all the songs be like that. The white

01:13:59.260 --> 01:14:02.680
stripes were huge at the time. Just for context.

01:14:02.960 --> 01:14:06.479
Yeah, exactly. So I had written like a bunch

01:14:06.479 --> 01:14:09.300
of songs and I was not really in a state of mind

01:14:09.300 --> 01:14:11.760
to write a bunch of songs. Cause I was like bummed

01:14:11.760 --> 01:14:15.159
out and depressed. And like the first album,

01:14:15.199 --> 01:14:20.779
not doing anything. It didn't, it was widely

01:14:20.779 --> 01:14:26.090
regarded as a flop. It was like, Yeah, commercially.

01:14:26.470 --> 01:14:28.710
Yeah, for sure commercially. And maybe other

01:14:28.710 --> 01:14:30.470
ways, too. No, I think critically, I think it

01:14:30.470 --> 01:14:35.069
did really well. No, even critically, I, like,

01:14:35.229 --> 01:14:40.510
there was, like, it was, some people championed

01:14:40.510 --> 01:14:42.869
it, but there was a lot of two and a half stars

01:14:42.869 --> 01:14:45.569
in the LA Times. A lot of that stuff where I

01:14:45.569 --> 01:14:50.029
was like, and that still bums me out. Yeah. And,

01:14:50.109 --> 01:14:53.149
like, I was just like, you're joking. What are

01:14:53.149 --> 01:14:56.149
you talking about? I was going like, if this

01:14:56.149 --> 01:14:59.350
is, I don't know how much better I can do. Honestly,

01:14:59.670 --> 01:15:03.210
I don't have, that was a nice warmup. Here comes

01:15:03.210 --> 01:15:05.989
the, here comes the real good one. I don't have

01:15:05.989 --> 01:15:10.210
that. So I was like, I was like angry. Yeah.

01:15:10.470 --> 01:15:13.729
And hopefully he had a good attitude about it,

01:15:13.729 --> 01:15:19.550
but I was mad. And we, so we just kept playing

01:15:19.550 --> 01:15:22.010
harder and harder. And then they recorded this

01:15:22.010 --> 01:15:26.510
that way. And then. the people the very nice

01:15:26.510 --> 01:15:29.149
people with really good taste or whatever who

01:15:29.149 --> 01:15:33.649
had liked our first record then a lot of people

01:15:33.649 --> 01:15:35.829
were like then they were bummed out that it was

01:15:35.829 --> 01:15:41.250
not produced enough and i was like oh no oh no

01:15:41.250 --> 01:15:43.989
because they don't sound that different to me

01:15:43.989 --> 01:15:46.250
i don't think so in fact i listened to bang girls

01:15:46.250 --> 01:15:48.289
money last night because it had been a minute

01:15:48.289 --> 01:15:50.489
i don't listen to that one as much yeah yeah

01:15:50.489 --> 01:15:52.609
i think and i think that part of that is just

01:15:52.609 --> 01:15:55.720
like I never saw you guys live during that time.

01:15:56.399 --> 01:15:59.199
I had black hair. Yeah, we had totally different

01:15:59.199 --> 01:16:01.380
looks. Yeah, and I just didn't have a connection

01:16:01.380 --> 01:16:04.560
to those songs live that I do a lot of the ones

01:16:04.560 --> 01:16:07.880
on the first record. But I still think it's a

01:16:07.880 --> 01:16:10.140
great record. I didn't turn it off. I didn't

01:16:10.140 --> 01:16:12.760
skip any songs. I fucking was dancing around

01:16:12.760 --> 01:16:15.939
my living room. It's got some really great shit

01:16:15.939 --> 01:16:19.479
on it, man. Well, thanks. And I'm not here to

01:16:19.479 --> 01:16:23.239
just blow smoke up your ass, but I do. think

01:16:23.239 --> 01:16:26.399
that it sounds a little bit a little different

01:16:26.399 --> 01:16:29.439
but i think it's weird when people have expectations

01:16:29.439 --> 01:16:32.560
about what something is supposed to be when it's

01:16:32.560 --> 01:16:36.739
not theirs yeah that's when people end up disappointed

01:16:36.739 --> 01:16:39.159
and i think like my approach to just listening

01:16:39.159 --> 01:16:43.060
to music in general was like it was different

01:16:43.060 --> 01:16:46.699
enough for me to be like okay this is not the

01:16:46.699 --> 01:16:52.100
same exact shit as the first record but I don't

01:16:52.100 --> 01:16:53.939
know that disappointed would have ever been the

01:16:53.939 --> 01:16:58.760
right word. Okay, that's good. I go back and

01:16:58.760 --> 01:17:02.380
forth because all of these things are, like,

01:17:02.380 --> 01:17:06.659
sides of the band, are sides of me. I really,

01:17:06.720 --> 01:17:09.340
on some level, I really like the lyrics on Fan

01:17:09.340 --> 01:17:12.920
Girl's mini album. They're funny to me. I like

01:17:12.920 --> 01:17:16.840
the attitude sometimes. It's, like, more punk.

01:17:16.979 --> 01:17:19.319
It's different. Like, the first one's more...

01:17:19.720 --> 01:17:22.920
like magical and then the second one's more like

01:17:22.920 --> 01:17:28.119
angry or whatever I don't know but but I don't

01:17:28.119 --> 01:17:31.399
think that I could have made um they wouldn't

01:17:31.399 --> 01:17:35.920
have let us make like Czar 2 like the second

01:17:35.920 --> 01:17:37.439
coming of the first album they wouldn't have

01:17:37.439 --> 01:17:40.359
they would have dropped us before that so you

01:17:40.359 --> 01:17:43.960
have to like money just wasn't there for no the

01:17:43.960 --> 01:17:48.270
first one we probably spent I don't know A lot

01:17:48.270 --> 01:17:49.989
of bands in your situation wouldn't have gotten

01:17:49.989 --> 01:17:54.550
a second record, I feel like. No. In fact, I

01:17:54.550 --> 01:17:59.869
went to a meeting at the new A &R guy's house,

01:18:00.029 --> 01:18:04.489
not knowing that he told me later that he was

01:18:04.489 --> 01:18:08.329
going to tell me that we were dropped. Oh, wow.

01:18:08.470 --> 01:18:11.550
In that conversation, and I came with the shirt.

01:18:13.149 --> 01:18:15.930
When we were, before we were Czar, we were briefly

01:18:15.930 --> 01:18:19.550
a drug boy. And we recorded some demos as drug

01:18:19.550 --> 01:18:21.130
boy. And I had a shirt that said, please don't

01:18:21.130 --> 01:18:22.970
be drug boy. And it was like an American flag.

01:18:23.289 --> 01:18:25.029
And I went to his house and said, please don't

01:18:25.029 --> 01:18:28.449
be drug boy. And I just, I was really, at that

01:18:28.449 --> 01:18:32.850
time, I was really good at talking to like label

01:18:32.850 --> 01:18:35.489
people and like those kind of people. Because

01:18:35.489 --> 01:18:39.289
you just say nonsense. You don't, you literally

01:18:39.289 --> 01:18:43.770
say. You literally say those things and you act

01:18:43.770 --> 01:18:46.970
like you're this artist who knows things that

01:18:46.970 --> 01:18:50.010
they couldn't possibly understand. So I was just

01:18:50.010 --> 01:18:53.989
rapping this nonsense at this guy and not knowing

01:18:53.989 --> 01:18:56.010
I was about to get dropped. And then he was saying

01:18:56.010 --> 01:18:58.149
a lot of stuff and I remember, are you familiar

01:18:58.149 --> 01:19:00.829
with the Monkees? The band the Monkees? Did you

01:19:00.829 --> 01:19:02.970
ever see the movie Head? The movie Head that

01:19:02.970 --> 01:19:06.489
they're in? Yeah. Okay. So in that movie, towards

01:19:06.489 --> 01:19:08.630
the beginning, they do this thing where they

01:19:09.539 --> 01:19:12.239
changed the monkey theme song to this kind of

01:19:12.239 --> 01:19:18.439
rap. And he stood at me and he looked at me and

01:19:18.439 --> 01:19:21.699
he started rapping that. And I just looked right

01:19:21.699 --> 01:19:24.560
back at him and I rapped right back at him, word

01:19:24.560 --> 01:19:27.380
for word. And he was like, oh, I guess I got

01:19:27.380 --> 01:19:31.600
to give this guy another album. So that's how

01:19:31.600 --> 01:19:34.119
that happened. But then the plan was hatched

01:19:34.119 --> 01:19:37.579
for it to be this more in -your -face rock and

01:19:37.579 --> 01:19:43.090
roll. then the first one had been more overdubbed,

01:19:43.090 --> 01:19:48.810
polished. So when that second record came out,

01:19:48.869 --> 01:19:51.670
did you guys get as much touring support? What

01:19:51.670 --> 01:19:54.250
kind of tours did you do after that record? Well,

01:19:54.289 --> 01:19:56.949
the first, okay, so then we recorded the record,

01:19:57.050 --> 01:20:03.029
and then they didn't put it out, right? So then

01:20:03.029 --> 01:20:08.619
we had a couple guys in the band quit. It was,

01:20:08.619 --> 01:20:11.000
you got to understand, it was really, we didn't

01:20:11.000 --> 01:20:14.020
have any money. We had flopped big. They're not

01:20:14.020 --> 01:20:16.359
going to put out our second record. Yeah, no,

01:20:16.439 --> 01:20:18.960
I grew up with a couple of bands that got signed

01:20:18.960 --> 01:20:21.880
to, they ended up both being on WEA. There's

01:20:21.880 --> 01:20:24.899
one ended up on Elektra and one ended up on Atlantic.

01:20:25.060 --> 01:20:28.680
But yeah, I mean, after their first album, both

01:20:28.680 --> 01:20:32.020
of them got dropped. Both of them, one of them

01:20:32.020 --> 01:20:33.899
got signed to like Universal for a second record.

01:20:33.939 --> 01:20:37.159
The other band, like one of them. I think only

01:20:37.159 --> 01:20:39.020
one member of that band is a professional musician.

01:20:39.659 --> 01:20:43.100
Everybody else in that band is living normal,

01:20:43.239 --> 01:20:46.199
regular, everyday lives. Sure. And maybe still

01:20:46.199 --> 01:20:50.039
writing songs. Oh, yeah. You can't stop doing

01:20:50.039 --> 01:20:56.039
it. But the thing is that it hurt, honestly.

01:20:56.239 --> 01:21:00.960
It hurt to move back in with my mom and my stepdad.

01:21:01.100 --> 01:21:04.539
It hurt, right? It hurt to be walking around.

01:21:05.660 --> 01:21:08.579
Seeing people, they go, what happened? And you

01:21:08.579 --> 01:21:10.619
go, I don't know. I live with my mom. What do

01:21:10.619 --> 01:21:17.699
you want me to say? So I was all in. I remember

01:21:17.699 --> 01:21:20.979
saying at the time, you got to do something from

01:21:20.979 --> 01:21:23.979
the cradle to the grave. Might as well make some

01:21:23.979 --> 01:21:26.739
rock and roll records. What else are you going

01:21:26.739 --> 01:21:29.800
to do? I don't know. That was my thinking at

01:21:29.800 --> 01:21:32.539
the time. We got a couple new guys. They were

01:21:32.539 --> 01:21:35.829
super nice. They're not. the original guys um

01:21:35.829 --> 01:21:38.430
as nice and as good as they were i noticed there

01:21:38.430 --> 01:21:40.289
was a lineup like when the record came out i

01:21:40.289 --> 01:21:42.770
remember noticing that like there was a lineup

01:21:42.770 --> 01:21:45.109
change yeah so so the original band played the

01:21:45.109 --> 01:21:49.390
record but then they quit and then we got the

01:21:49.390 --> 01:21:51.649
other guys to be like in the videos and stuff

01:21:51.649 --> 01:21:53.930
and but they were did not play on the record

01:21:53.930 --> 01:21:56.409
that's what it was yeah yeah the band girls money

01:21:56.409 --> 01:22:00.350
video i remember that yeah yeah and and that

01:22:00.350 --> 01:22:02.250
was different too because then we were on this

01:22:02.250 --> 01:22:06.649
different label I remember it was TBT. Yeah.

01:22:06.750 --> 01:22:09.090
So they had, they'd had some cool bands like

01:22:09.090 --> 01:22:11.069
nine inch nails and guided by voices and stuff

01:22:11.069 --> 01:22:14.409
over the years. And they were interested in,

01:22:14.409 --> 01:22:18.310
in us and they liked the new records. Uh, so

01:22:18.310 --> 01:22:20.289
we went with them, they bought it from Hollywood

01:22:20.289 --> 01:22:23.909
and we went with them. But like, I remember like

01:22:23.909 --> 01:22:25.909
we were recording, like we were doing the band

01:22:25.909 --> 01:22:29.869
girls money video and I had an outfit that I

01:22:29.869 --> 01:22:34.270
wanted to wear. And. and they wanted me to wear

01:22:34.270 --> 01:22:38.149
what I ended up wearing, right? And I remember,

01:22:38.210 --> 01:22:42.369
like, being in the makeup chair, talking to the

01:22:42.369 --> 01:22:44.710
manager, and I'm like, why can't I wear what

01:22:44.710 --> 01:22:49.609
I want to wear? And he's like, because we don't

01:22:49.609 --> 01:22:51.850
get to do what we want to do all the time. I

01:22:51.850 --> 01:22:54.670
go, this is a fucking rock band. If I don't get

01:22:54.670 --> 01:22:57.090
to do what I want to do now, why the fuck am

01:22:57.090 --> 01:23:00.770
I doing this? and he goes because there's other

01:23:00.770 --> 01:23:03.090
people involved there's others money involved

01:23:03.090 --> 01:23:06.130
and the director wants you to wear this and i

01:23:06.130 --> 01:23:08.210
go i've never met that guy till this morning

01:23:08.210 --> 01:23:13.090
he's never met me till this morning and he's

01:23:13.090 --> 01:23:14.930
you have i'm sorry jeff you're gonna have to

01:23:14.930 --> 01:23:19.170
wear this as a favor to me then because it's

01:23:19.170 --> 01:23:21.750
you can't we can't do this we have to wear this

01:23:21.750 --> 01:23:24.789
and i remember he left and i was just telling

01:23:24.789 --> 01:23:26.930
like the makeup lady while she was like putting

01:23:26.930 --> 01:23:30.479
on my makeup I'm just like, I don't get to do

01:23:30.479 --> 01:23:34.960
it. She's like, don't cry. You look beautiful.

01:23:35.060 --> 01:23:38.380
Don't cry. I'm like, it was like some model.

01:23:39.119 --> 01:23:41.359
I'm about to cry and I'm going to mess up my

01:23:41.359 --> 01:23:44.779
makeup. And I'm like, well, let us wear what

01:23:44.779 --> 01:23:48.279
we want to wear. And so that definitely happened.

01:23:49.079 --> 01:23:52.439
And I did not wear what I wanted to wear. And

01:23:52.439 --> 01:23:56.250
I still regret that. But you never know with

01:23:56.250 --> 01:23:58.329
these things which is the right way, when to

01:23:58.329 --> 01:24:01.850
play ball, when to, like, when to take advice

01:24:01.850 --> 01:24:05.890
from people, when to tell them to play a kite.

01:24:06.449 --> 01:24:09.609
Yeah, especially when they're – you ever seen

01:24:09.609 --> 01:24:13.710
the movie Dig? No, I never did. I did. Wait,

01:24:14.289 --> 01:24:19.289
is that the one with Nirvana playing Small 16

01:24:19.289 --> 01:24:22.619
Spirit? Or is that the one with – The Dandy Warhols

01:24:22.619 --> 01:24:24.300
and the... The Dandy Warhols and the Brian Jones

01:24:24.300 --> 01:24:27.239
film. Yeah, I didn't see that. I think they just

01:24:27.239 --> 01:24:30.939
reissued it on Blu -ray, too. But it reminds

01:24:30.939 --> 01:24:35.659
me of that $100 ,000 music video shoot that the

01:24:35.659 --> 01:24:39.300
Dandys had to do, where they had no control over

01:24:39.300 --> 01:24:42.859
anything. They were like... I think David LaChapelle

01:24:42.859 --> 01:24:46.600
was the director. And it was just like... This

01:24:46.600 --> 01:24:49.500
thing where... It didn't match what the band

01:24:49.500 --> 01:24:56.279
was at all. And so I guess I wonder, ultimately,

01:24:56.680 --> 01:24:59.899
that money is money that y 'all have to pay,

01:24:59.939 --> 01:25:06.380
at least most of the time. The band's still paying

01:25:06.380 --> 01:25:09.699
for the video at the end of the day. No, at the

01:25:09.699 --> 01:25:11.539
end of the day, the band pays for the video if

01:25:11.539 --> 01:25:14.079
they sell a lot of records. And that's the other

01:25:14.079 --> 01:25:16.439
thing, is that they go... that video costs $10

01:25:16.439 --> 01:25:20.460
,000 that it, and that's, it looks great for

01:25:20.460 --> 01:25:23.100
a $10 ,000 video. And I was just like, people

01:25:23.100 --> 01:25:26.760
don't care how much money a video costs. If they

01:25:26.760 --> 01:25:31.319
only care if it costs like $400 or like $10 million.

01:25:31.680 --> 01:25:35.140
Yeah. I think that big came out the same year.

01:25:35.439 --> 01:25:37.720
Actually. I feel like did care like right around

01:25:37.720 --> 01:25:41.800
then, like 2007, maybe a couple of years afterwards.

01:25:41.899 --> 01:25:45.560
So I think. The tide had turned on music video.

01:25:45.640 --> 01:25:47.500
Like, the attitude had shifted where, yeah, people

01:25:47.500 --> 01:25:51.159
really didn't care. Unless it was, like, Massacre,

01:25:51.180 --> 01:25:54.520
by the way, was on TVT as well. What was that?

01:25:54.579 --> 01:25:57.699
Oh, they were, right? Yeah. They were. Yeah.

01:25:58.060 --> 01:26:02.100
And I almost wonder if you almost felt like you

01:26:02.100 --> 01:26:05.359
were more like that a little. Almost like you

01:26:05.359 --> 01:26:07.479
felt like you were from a different era. Almost

01:26:07.479 --> 01:26:09.920
like how that band. Definitely felt like that.

01:26:10.640 --> 01:26:16.359
As fun as the. tour was and it's great and what

01:26:16.359 --> 01:26:19.300
a good matchup it was with Marvelous 3 there

01:26:19.300 --> 01:26:22.920
were a lot more mismatches along the lines of

01:26:22.920 --> 01:26:26.579
Eve 6 and like the band that I felt the most

01:26:26.579 --> 01:26:32.979
like at home with was we went we maybe did I

01:26:32.979 --> 01:26:37.020
don't know six or seven shows with the New York

01:26:37.020 --> 01:26:41.340
Dolls right like 2006 that seven in there and

01:26:42.000 --> 01:26:45.899
I felt totally understood by the people that

01:26:45.899 --> 01:26:49.020
came to see them. I felt like, oh, they get this.

01:26:49.180 --> 01:26:53.000
They understand this. Yeah, I can see that 100%.

01:26:53.000 --> 01:26:58.119
That tracks, yeah. Yeah, and so is it from another

01:26:58.119 --> 01:27:03.260
time? I always liked older stuff. I almost never

01:27:03.260 --> 01:27:06.960
liked contemporary stuff. And so it's possible

01:27:06.960 --> 01:27:11.300
that I just want to explore. stuff that happened

01:27:11.300 --> 01:27:13.539
before i i don't really don't know what it is

01:27:13.539 --> 01:27:18.279
but it that sense of the time of being outside

01:27:18.279 --> 01:27:21.600
of your own time is very familiar to me yeah

01:27:21.600 --> 01:27:27.119
so when uh when it all fell apart and it sounds

01:27:27.119 --> 01:27:29.300
like it was very painful so i don't if you don't

01:27:29.300 --> 01:27:32.140
i don't want you to like dig up a bunch of painful

01:27:32.140 --> 01:27:35.079
stuff or anything like that unless like you feel

01:27:35.079 --> 01:27:38.380
like you want to but Now is more painful than

01:27:38.380 --> 01:27:44.460
then. Can you just take us from then to now?

01:27:46.180 --> 01:27:49.380
I certainly don't want to rush you, but I don't

01:27:49.380 --> 01:27:52.399
need you to go into as much detail as you have

01:27:52.399 --> 01:27:57.659
up until now. It's hard to talk about things

01:27:57.659 --> 01:27:59.779
historically unless it's been more than 20 years.

01:28:01.479 --> 01:28:05.180
A lot of it, we were up to about 20 years ago.

01:28:07.780 --> 01:28:14.039
So that was fun. We went to England. The second

01:28:14.039 --> 01:28:18.739
record sold more than the first record. I don't

01:28:18.739 --> 01:28:21.140
hear as much from people saying it's their favorite

01:28:21.140 --> 01:28:23.100
record or whatever. You still hear that about

01:28:23.100 --> 01:28:24.699
the first one from time to time. Some people

01:28:24.699 --> 01:28:29.020
get in touch with you and say how much they like

01:28:29.020 --> 01:28:32.020
it. It's not often the second record that they

01:28:32.020 --> 01:28:34.960
say that about. I think the fact that I still

01:28:34.960 --> 01:28:38.220
listen to it Not as often as the first one. I

01:28:38.220 --> 01:28:40.300
definitely like the first one. The first one

01:28:40.300 --> 01:28:44.840
is attached to me more. Yeah. The second record

01:28:44.840 --> 01:28:48.680
is still probably like a top 100 record of all

01:28:48.680 --> 01:28:52.100
time for me. Oh, fantastic. I still listen to

01:28:52.100 --> 01:28:55.600
it at least two or three times a year. Awesome.

01:28:55.800 --> 01:28:59.439
Thank you. And I do think a big part of that

01:28:59.439 --> 01:29:02.319
is the fact that I got to see you live on that

01:29:02.319 --> 01:29:06.260
first record. I think that had... so much more

01:29:06.260 --> 01:29:08.579
to do with it than the record itself really okay

01:29:08.579 --> 01:29:13.479
so and these things are all the things that make

01:29:13.479 --> 01:29:18.000
i like some i think i like some music more because

01:29:18.000 --> 01:29:21.539
i liked the cassette that it was on there are

01:29:21.539 --> 01:29:23.960
things that like that they that you associate

01:29:23.960 --> 01:29:26.859
that make you like it and that aren't strictly

01:29:26.859 --> 01:29:31.060
about the notes or whatever but i'll just run

01:29:31.060 --> 01:29:35.970
through the history since 2000 six or so and

01:29:35.970 --> 01:29:38.210
so we toured with that made a couple videos on

01:29:38.210 --> 01:29:41.550
that record which we didn't get to make any videos

01:29:41.550 --> 01:29:45.010
on the first record because that was when everything

01:29:45.010 --> 01:29:48.609
was still being done on film the first record

01:29:48.609 --> 01:29:51.449
by the time the second record came out people

01:29:51.449 --> 01:29:55.470
could do stuff on um on video so that brought

01:29:55.470 --> 01:29:59.710
the cost down a lot yeah we had it in our contract

01:30:00.380 --> 01:30:03.000
with Hollywood for the first album that we were

01:30:03.000 --> 01:30:05.399
supposed to at least make one video when the

01:30:05.399 --> 01:30:08.000
budget was like $150 ,000. They just didn't make

01:30:08.000 --> 01:30:10.800
it. And they go, we're not going to make it until

01:30:10.800 --> 01:30:13.399
it's a hit. And then, you know, what are you

01:30:13.399 --> 01:30:16.500
going to do? It was the video era, too. Yeah,

01:30:16.560 --> 01:30:20.020
it was also the end. It was right when MTV announced,

01:30:20.439 --> 01:30:22.520
we would hear that they announced that they would

01:30:22.520 --> 01:30:25.220
not be breaking any new songs. They would only

01:30:25.220 --> 01:30:28.659
be playing songs that were already hits. So I

01:30:28.659 --> 01:30:32.720
don't even know what that means. But when a label,

01:30:32.899 --> 01:30:35.420
when you have a contract with a label, getting

01:30:35.420 --> 01:30:37.420
them to do the things that are in the contract

01:30:37.420 --> 01:30:39.960
is not like you can't just say, so that's in

01:30:39.960 --> 01:30:42.600
the contract, so we're going to do that. You

01:30:42.600 --> 01:30:44.659
wonder, because the contracts are super thick,

01:30:44.699 --> 01:30:46.220
but they only do the stuff that they want to

01:30:46.220 --> 01:30:49.880
do. And by that point, you started to see the

01:30:49.880 --> 01:30:52.260
consolidation of radio, and you started under

01:30:52.260 --> 01:30:54.779
Clear Channel and Cumulus, and you started seeing...

01:30:55.210 --> 01:30:57.750
The consolidation of media in general, right?

01:30:58.029 --> 01:31:05.670
All the channels had multiple owners. Media companies

01:31:05.670 --> 01:31:08.310
owned multiple channels, and there were deals

01:31:08.310 --> 01:31:12.489
between networks. Yeah, but I was in the position

01:31:12.489 --> 01:31:16.250
where I wanted that to work for me. You know

01:31:16.250 --> 01:31:20.850
what I mean? I listened to a lot of radio at

01:31:20.850 --> 01:31:24.229
Disney on my own, and now we're on Disney's...

01:31:24.730 --> 01:31:27.510
or you go, can we be on Radio Disney? And they

01:31:27.510 --> 01:31:30.810
say no. And you go, what the hell? Yeah, I do.

01:31:30.930 --> 01:31:33.090
Because you work to get in the position where

01:31:33.090 --> 01:31:35.789
you want some of this stuff to work for you now.

01:31:36.789 --> 01:31:39.850
And then if it doesn't, you go, you know, whatever.

01:31:39.850 --> 01:31:45.710
Why am I here? Yeah, yeah. So then I went to

01:31:45.710 --> 01:31:54.460
grad school and got a master's degree. And then

01:31:54.460 --> 01:31:59.380
I made a solo record. What's that record called

01:31:59.380 --> 01:32:02.500
and where can people hear it? It's called 10

01:32:02.500 --> 01:32:07.260
More Rock Super Hits. It's, I don't know, it's

01:32:07.260 --> 01:32:12.159
available where good records are sold. I don't

01:32:12.159 --> 01:32:14.500
think it's on tape, but it's on vinyl and CD

01:32:14.500 --> 01:32:19.760
and digital. I made that with Linus of Hollywood.

01:32:19.880 --> 01:32:22.640
I don't know if you know who he is, but he's...

01:32:23.119 --> 01:32:26.960
Really talented musician and producer. And I

01:32:26.960 --> 01:32:29.260
had a wonderful time making that record with

01:32:29.260 --> 01:32:34.500
him. And I'm really proud of that. I would say

01:32:34.500 --> 01:32:37.720
of all of the things that I've been involved

01:32:37.720 --> 01:32:40.819
in making, my three favorite, the three that

01:32:40.819 --> 01:32:44.239
I'm most proud of are the first Czar album, my

01:32:44.239 --> 01:32:47.359
solo album, Ten More Rock Super Hits, and the

01:32:47.359 --> 01:32:51.260
Monster Squad album, which is soon to come out,

01:32:51.279 --> 01:32:54.850
One Hopes. Those are the three things I listen

01:32:54.850 --> 01:32:59.590
to and I feel the least amount of shame. I feel

01:32:59.590 --> 01:33:01.630
like a kid on Christmas morning because you just

01:33:01.630 --> 01:33:03.369
told me there's another record that I haven't

01:33:03.369 --> 01:33:06.449
heard that I can go listen to. Oh, yeah. And

01:33:06.449 --> 01:33:10.489
another one hopefully coming out. Yeah. So thank

01:33:10.489 --> 01:33:13.649
you for that reaction. That's wonderful. The

01:33:13.649 --> 01:33:17.890
solo album, we did a couple of videos of that.

01:33:18.350 --> 01:33:21.779
So one's called... The Alien Lanes and one's

01:33:21.779 --> 01:33:24.600
called Jendi for people who want to get a sense

01:33:24.600 --> 01:33:28.420
of it without having to buy it right away. And

01:33:28.420 --> 01:33:31.680
that was a lot of fun. I really liked that record.

01:33:32.859 --> 01:33:36.880
And then a friend had a party and wanted to know

01:33:36.880 --> 01:33:39.539
if the brother Steve from college would play

01:33:39.539 --> 01:33:43.420
at it. So we got the band back together and we

01:33:43.420 --> 01:33:46.340
played this party. And then we said, let's, since

01:33:46.340 --> 01:33:48.939
we know the songs again. Let's record an album.

01:33:49.079 --> 01:33:53.880
So we did. And that one, we recorded the first

01:33:53.880 --> 01:33:56.520
album really fast. And that was really good.

01:33:57.100 --> 01:33:59.840
I like that one. That one's actually better than

01:33:59.840 --> 01:34:02.760
I thought it was at the time. And then the second

01:34:02.760 --> 01:34:05.920
one was recorded during COVID. And it's not as

01:34:05.920 --> 01:34:09.600
good as I thought it was at the time. Largely

01:34:09.600 --> 01:34:13.640
due to its, you can feel the COVID on it. You

01:34:13.640 --> 01:34:17.100
can feel the isolation. You can feel that. No

01:34:17.100 --> 01:34:19.039
two of us were in the same room at the same time

01:34:19.039 --> 01:34:21.460
during any of the recording of it. So you can

01:34:21.460 --> 01:34:24.979
feel that. I didn't necessarily know that. Gotcha.

01:34:26.279 --> 01:34:29.239
What did you study in grad school? Information

01:34:29.239 --> 01:34:33.779
science. Awesome. I did museum studies at one

01:34:33.779 --> 01:34:36.539
point. Okay. So, yeah. So this is library and

01:34:36.539 --> 01:34:39.500
information science. And I'm a librarian now.

01:34:39.600 --> 01:34:43.180
Yeah. Yeah. When it comes to songwriting, I just

01:34:43.180 --> 01:34:46.770
want to step back and take, now that we've. covered

01:34:46.770 --> 01:34:50.649
the events and everything when it comes to songwriting

01:34:50.649 --> 01:34:54.670
it sounds like it's something that you said it

01:34:54.670 --> 01:34:56.689
earlier it's like you can't stop like it has

01:34:56.689 --> 01:35:00.310
to come out of you do you think that dude that

01:35:00.310 --> 01:35:02.989
it started to manifest in destructive ways before

01:35:02.989 --> 01:35:05.289
you discovered you were a songwriter or do you

01:35:05.289 --> 01:35:07.930
think what do you think would happen if you just

01:35:07.930 --> 01:35:11.449
stopped because i think people that have that

01:35:11.449 --> 01:35:16.890
that compelling nature To do it, like, it's going

01:35:16.890 --> 01:35:19.970
to come out some way or another. Yeah, no, that's

01:35:19.970 --> 01:35:24.329
interesting. I would say that, like, when I don't

01:35:24.329 --> 01:35:29.789
do it, I feel more guilt. I feel more like I'm

01:35:29.789 --> 01:35:33.050
not doing what I'm supposed to be doing. And

01:35:33.050 --> 01:35:36.090
it's not if you do it, then you feel great. It's

01:35:36.090 --> 01:35:39.130
you feel less of that. And it's a hard thing

01:35:39.130 --> 01:35:41.149
to do, especially because, like, when you're,

01:35:41.149 --> 01:35:45.149
like, 23 and you go, I'm going to. or you're

01:35:45.149 --> 01:35:48.329
17 and you're on acid and you're running around

01:35:48.329 --> 01:35:51.210
your hair is bouncing on your shoulders like

01:35:51.210 --> 01:35:56.170
the sense of doing it i don't know it's it you

01:35:56.170 --> 01:35:58.029
you can do whatever you want in your life but

01:35:58.029 --> 01:36:01.029
like when it when it when you have an option

01:36:01.029 --> 01:36:04.029
that you might you could maybe be a successful

01:36:04.029 --> 01:36:09.090
guy in a band versus Say, like, later, when you've

01:36:09.090 --> 01:36:12.449
been given a lot of examples of how that's probably

01:36:12.449 --> 01:36:15.649
not going to happen to you. Like, the motivation

01:36:15.649 --> 01:36:20.909
for it is different. It's not as, oh, I might

01:36:20.909 --> 01:36:23.949
become a rock star if I do this right. Now it's

01:36:23.949 --> 01:36:29.250
like, I might go less crazy. Yeah. Yeah. When

01:36:29.250 --> 01:36:32.550
you write a song, and I'm a stand -up comedian.

01:36:33.310 --> 01:36:36.869
Awesome. How is it? It's the only way that I'm

01:36:36.869 --> 01:36:39.270
comfortable getting attention put on me is if

01:36:39.270 --> 01:36:41.210
I'm making people laugh. It's what I've realized

01:36:41.210 --> 01:36:45.029
recently. I was helping a friend who's a musician.

01:36:45.510 --> 01:36:47.949
His name's Lee Baines III, and he was in a band

01:36:47.949 --> 01:36:51.029
called the Glory Fires for a long time. Anyway,

01:36:51.170 --> 01:36:55.829
I was helping him put on a house show in Jacksonville

01:36:55.829 --> 01:36:58.050
because he did my house, and then the next house

01:36:58.050 --> 01:37:00.630
didn't have a PA. And he was mostly playing clubs

01:37:00.630 --> 01:37:03.609
on this tour. And I just remember him like...

01:37:04.010 --> 01:37:06.270
like thanking me to the guy and this was just

01:37:06.270 --> 01:37:08.750
like a week ago but he like thanked me to the

01:37:08.750 --> 01:37:10.789
room and I was like very uncomfortable with it

01:37:10.789 --> 01:37:14.109
until I made a joke about how I I just wanted

01:37:14.109 --> 01:37:18.010
to see the full show like it and so I think that's

01:37:18.010 --> 01:37:20.449
really the only way I can it's the only way I'm

01:37:20.449 --> 01:37:23.289
like really comfortable like getting praise of

01:37:23.289 --> 01:37:28.569
some sort it's also I think for me like until

01:37:28.569 --> 01:37:31.390
I started doing it like it would manifest in

01:37:32.739 --> 01:37:36.880
ugly ways and maybe i would just say what was

01:37:36.880 --> 01:37:40.720
on my mind a little too often or not have a filter

01:37:40.720 --> 01:37:44.699
socially or like now i've found like situations

01:37:44.699 --> 01:37:47.340
where i might have gotten angry about i'm now

01:37:47.340 --> 01:37:50.720
like i i write a joke about it and then that's

01:37:50.720 --> 01:37:52.899
how it exists in my mind now it's not something

01:37:52.899 --> 01:37:54.239
that makes me angry it's something that makes

01:37:54.239 --> 01:37:56.680
me laugh can i ask you a couple questions about

01:37:56.680 --> 01:38:01.819
this absolutely please okay so i like when i

01:38:02.170 --> 01:38:05.770
i've read a lot of memoirs by rockers and i've

01:38:05.770 --> 01:38:08.470
read quite a few memoirs of stand -up comedians

01:38:08.470 --> 01:38:13.010
and they're similar and they agree yeah they

01:38:13.010 --> 01:38:18.229
like they talk about i listen to that record

01:38:18.229 --> 01:38:20.449
over and over in my room and that could be a

01:38:20.449 --> 01:38:22.470
rock record or it could be like steve martin

01:38:22.470 --> 01:38:25.069
record you know i mean it's like it's somebody's

01:38:25.069 --> 01:38:26.989
like getting obsessed with this thing and i do

01:38:26.989 --> 01:38:29.619
it with my friends It was exactly the same as

01:38:29.619 --> 01:38:31.960
the musicians, right? And then they go on these

01:38:31.960 --> 01:38:33.939
tours where you pay your dues, you play to nobody,

01:38:33.979 --> 01:38:36.420
and you're like, you're doing the same thing.

01:38:36.460 --> 01:38:39.800
And there's this community of people. So there

01:38:39.800 --> 01:38:42.420
are similar instincts. There are similar urges

01:38:42.420 --> 01:38:45.819
that are happening or experiences about where

01:38:45.819 --> 01:38:49.600
you present yourself. You're probably troubled.

01:38:49.920 --> 01:38:52.800
You probably had a weird childhood. And now you're

01:38:52.800 --> 01:38:55.300
either a rocker, you're making people laugh.

01:38:56.270 --> 01:38:58.949
or whatever that's like. A hundred percent. Yeah.

01:38:59.029 --> 01:39:01.810
I completely, I would say that's almost been

01:39:01.810 --> 01:39:04.609
the thesis of this podcast season, like the first

01:39:04.609 --> 01:39:08.409
season of this podcast. Awesome. Okay. Okay.

01:39:08.510 --> 01:39:14.890
And then when, does it matter to you if somebody

01:39:14.890 --> 01:39:18.109
likes your stuff, but they don't get it? Like

01:39:18.109 --> 01:39:21.850
you clearly, they love you and you're like, they

01:39:21.850 --> 01:39:23.930
don't get what I'm doing at all, but they love

01:39:23.930 --> 01:39:26.920
it. Does it matter to you? Do you have to, because

01:39:26.920 --> 01:39:30.399
you talked about intention with a rocker intended

01:39:30.399 --> 01:39:34.199
with something versus how people took it. So

01:39:34.199 --> 01:39:36.680
does it matter to you if somebody's like a big

01:39:36.680 --> 01:39:39.420
fan of yours, of your comedy, but you're pretty

01:39:39.420 --> 01:39:42.079
sure they don't get what you're doing? I think

01:39:42.079 --> 01:39:46.659
that I'm okay with it if they get part of what

01:39:46.659 --> 01:39:49.380
I'm doing. So I think some people get like the

01:39:49.380 --> 01:39:51.640
podcast, they get the kind of history interviews

01:39:51.640 --> 01:39:55.039
that I'm doing. And like some comedy is just

01:39:55.039 --> 01:39:57.859
not for everybody to like, it's not for people

01:39:57.859 --> 01:39:59.859
that get easily offended. It's not for people

01:39:59.859 --> 01:40:02.960
that there's comedy for those people. But in

01:40:02.960 --> 01:40:05.439
general, I think standup comedy is for people

01:40:05.439 --> 01:40:07.800
that have like a fucked up view of the world

01:40:07.800 --> 01:40:12.460
a little bit. Okay. People need to do the comedy

01:40:12.460 --> 01:40:16.380
or to enjoy it. I think on varying degrees, both.

01:40:17.380 --> 01:40:23.199
I think to appreciate... Nate Bargetzi is one

01:40:23.199 --> 01:40:25.100
of my all -time favorite comics. I think he's

01:40:25.100 --> 01:40:26.779
great. I went and saw him live a few weeks ago,

01:40:26.880 --> 01:40:29.239
but he's not what I'm talking about here either.

01:40:29.340 --> 01:40:31.680
He's the kind of comic that the whole family

01:40:31.680 --> 01:40:35.500
can go watch, and he's just a funny guy. I think

01:40:35.500 --> 01:40:38.659
he has a lot of those kinds of fans that just

01:40:38.659 --> 01:40:41.600
like him, but don't always necessarily get his

01:40:41.600 --> 01:40:46.710
jokes. I feel like... This touches on what me

01:40:46.710 --> 01:40:49.109
and my good friend who's been on the podcast,

01:40:49.449 --> 01:40:51.850
Elizabeth and I were talking about the other

01:40:51.850 --> 01:40:55.310
week where it's, she's a songwriter, a singer,

01:40:55.329 --> 01:40:59.550
a songwriter. And like, you can have a bad show

01:40:59.550 --> 01:41:02.710
or you can have a good show with no audience

01:41:02.710 --> 01:41:06.590
as a band. You can have a good show for five

01:41:06.590 --> 01:41:09.989
people. That's a lot harder as a comedian because

01:41:09.989 --> 01:41:12.529
what you're doing relies on the audience getting

01:41:12.529 --> 01:41:15.699
it so much more. So I think when it comes to

01:41:15.699 --> 01:41:22.180
stand -up, I don't want applause. I want laughter.

01:41:22.340 --> 01:41:26.159
Even a groan or a boo is better than what I call

01:41:26.159 --> 01:41:29.100
claptor, which is what I think a lot of these

01:41:29.100 --> 01:41:34.079
comedians that get more political do. And I'm

01:41:34.079 --> 01:41:36.779
a leftist, but I don't do a lot of political

01:41:36.779 --> 01:41:40.880
humor, except one time I'm spreading a rumor.

01:41:41.319 --> 01:41:42.840
Go ahead and put this rumor out on the podcast.

01:41:43.000 --> 01:41:44.819
I am spreading the rumor that billionaires taste

01:41:44.819 --> 01:41:47.760
like lobster. When buttered, a lot of things

01:41:47.760 --> 01:41:57.220
do. I agree. I don't know what is a good way

01:41:57.220 --> 01:42:00.680
to go with political stuff. The world is different

01:42:00.680 --> 01:42:05.439
than it was. I watched some old Conan O 'Brien

01:42:05.439 --> 01:42:07.739
episode from the 90s the other night, and it

01:42:07.739 --> 01:42:11.140
was like a different world. What was being presented,

01:42:11.340 --> 01:42:14.199
this, like, talk show format, where you come

01:42:14.199 --> 01:42:17.359
out, you tell some monologue jokes. In this episode,

01:42:17.420 --> 01:42:19.579
he did a thing about, like, a comedy bit about

01:42:19.579 --> 01:42:21.920
how the band got together. And then you go to

01:42:21.920 --> 01:42:24.199
the first guest. It doesn't exist anymore. That

01:42:24.199 --> 01:42:27.039
whole thing is not a thing anymore. No, because

01:42:27.039 --> 01:42:30.680
the monologue has now become the way a lot of

01:42:30.680 --> 01:42:36.619
people get their news. Yeah. Even the absurd

01:42:36.619 --> 01:42:41.060
stuff usually has political tint to it. And the

01:42:41.060 --> 01:42:44.920
thing about all that is, like, politics is not

01:42:44.920 --> 01:42:46.560
timeless. It goes back to what we were talking

01:42:46.560 --> 01:42:50.039
about. Like, I want my jokes... All jokes are

01:42:50.039 --> 01:42:51.640
going to be culturally bound, I think, more than

01:42:51.640 --> 01:42:56.960
music has to be. But I do want my jokes to be

01:42:56.960 --> 01:43:01.560
funny in five years. Not just funny on the monologue

01:43:01.560 --> 01:43:06.100
of The Tonight Show tonight. Yeah. And so I think

01:43:06.100 --> 01:43:09.880
striving for that longevity is really challenging

01:43:09.880 --> 01:43:12.739
when it comes to keeping the audience with you.

01:43:13.880 --> 01:43:16.960
They're so tapped into what's going on right

01:43:16.960 --> 01:43:21.520
now, the daily news, the whatever. And like zooming

01:43:21.520 --> 01:43:25.260
out from that, that's how you get, I think in

01:43:25.260 --> 01:43:28.439
songwriting and in jokes, like you either get

01:43:28.439 --> 01:43:31.180
super specific or you zoom out, right? Like you

01:43:31.180 --> 01:43:35.539
get so specific it's universal or you get. Or

01:43:35.539 --> 01:43:38.479
you start to generalize these kind of specific

01:43:38.479 --> 01:43:42.479
experiences that you've had over time. And I

01:43:42.479 --> 01:43:45.520
think that's where the challenge lies. It's easy

01:43:45.520 --> 01:43:49.380
to make a joke about the news. It's easy to make

01:43:49.380 --> 01:43:52.800
a joke about Epstein and the drawing or whatever.

01:43:53.159 --> 01:43:55.220
And it's not like I don't make those jokes on

01:43:55.220 --> 01:43:57.539
an open mic night. But a lot of the time I try

01:43:57.539 --> 01:44:00.640
and turn them into something. Why is that funny?

01:44:01.420 --> 01:44:04.359
And then... Can I make what's funny about that

01:44:04.359 --> 01:44:09.100
exist without the news story or whatever? It's

01:44:09.100 --> 01:44:10.279
interesting that you say that because you hear

01:44:10.279 --> 01:44:12.760
about, say, you know, these famous comedians

01:44:12.760 --> 01:44:17.359
like Lenny Bruce or like Mort Sahl or something.

01:44:17.659 --> 01:44:20.020
And you try to listen to their records or you

01:44:20.020 --> 01:44:21.800
try to listen to their performances and you don't

01:44:21.800 --> 01:44:26.579
laugh even once. No, you don't. I listened to

01:44:26.579 --> 01:44:28.579
a George Carlin record and he was like talking

01:44:28.579 --> 01:44:30.699
about how you accidentally grabbed the wrong

01:44:30.699 --> 01:44:33.520
grocery cart. And I'm like, I get, it's like

01:44:33.520 --> 01:44:36.979
a chuckle, but it's not the crowd. You hear the

01:44:36.979 --> 01:44:39.819
crowd roaring. And I'm like, that's so obvious

01:44:39.819 --> 01:44:43.859
as like somebody who's 50 years later is like

01:44:43.859 --> 01:44:46.260
studied comedy is like a thing, right? Like it's

01:44:46.260 --> 01:44:49.340
like, it becomes, I mean, I think some George

01:44:49.340 --> 01:44:53.779
Carlin still was funny, but sure, sure. But in

01:44:53.779 --> 01:44:56.630
terms of, That might be the exception. Okay,

01:44:56.710 --> 01:44:58.829
I don't know about you, but the Steve Martin

01:44:58.829 --> 01:45:01.609
records, his 70s records, are really funny to

01:45:01.609 --> 01:45:04.270
me. And I don't know if they are to a lot of

01:45:04.270 --> 01:45:08.289
people. I always like it when I read some kind

01:45:08.289 --> 01:45:11.170
of contemporary comedian that they're heavily

01:45:11.170 --> 01:45:14.449
influenced by Steve Martin's records. I go, okay,

01:45:14.550 --> 01:45:17.670
I get it. But you don't hear about them. It's

01:45:17.670 --> 01:45:20.569
like you watch an old comedy movie. You watch,

01:45:20.569 --> 01:45:23.029
say, some Marx Brothers movie. I was like a big

01:45:23.029 --> 01:45:25.770
Abbott and Costello guy. As a kid, maybe, but

01:45:25.770 --> 01:45:27.329
if you watch it now, do you think it's funny?

01:45:28.229 --> 01:45:32.890
No. Yeah. It's harder. Like, it's more like a,

01:45:32.949 --> 01:45:36.890
that's funny, than a laugh out loud. Right? It's

01:45:36.890 --> 01:45:39.510
like, oh, I see how that's funny. It's like an

01:45:39.510 --> 01:45:42.189
intellectual, like, but I think that happens

01:45:42.189 --> 01:45:46.430
as you start to, I wonder if this happens, do

01:45:46.430 --> 01:45:48.210
you find yourself as a musician, do you rock

01:45:48.210 --> 01:45:50.689
out less to other musicians than you did when

01:45:50.689 --> 01:45:52.609
you weren't writing songs when you were younger?

01:45:53.960 --> 01:45:56.659
You can't help but listen to it in a kind of

01:45:56.659 --> 01:46:00.899
a, like a doctor or like a, as a, you chart the

01:46:00.899 --> 01:46:03.380
scientists, you go, what are they doing or whatever.

01:46:03.760 --> 01:46:06.140
I think that might happen to all comedy eventually

01:46:06.140 --> 01:46:10.020
because it's just such like a commentary on us.

01:46:11.439 --> 01:46:14.359
Eventually enough time gets removed from it.

01:46:14.399 --> 01:46:16.439
It really does just become like a time piece

01:46:16.439 --> 01:46:19.739
and you have to look at it with this academic

01:46:19.739 --> 01:46:23.359
view. I also think just. is someone who writes

01:46:23.359 --> 01:46:25.699
jokes like that i relate to that too like eventually

01:46:25.699 --> 01:46:29.579
like i can watch a comedy special and they will

01:46:29.579 --> 01:46:33.619
make me laugh but it's a lot harder than i feel

01:46:33.619 --> 01:46:35.520
like it used to be or even my friends are out

01:46:35.520 --> 01:46:38.720
i might just be like oh that's funny where they're

01:46:38.720 --> 01:46:42.560
like actually cracking up about something so

01:46:42.560 --> 01:46:47.060
i do wonder when that let me say this i'll say

01:46:47.060 --> 01:46:50.159
this i'll say that like I've explored a lot of

01:46:50.159 --> 01:46:54.880
what's available out there. And most of almost

01:46:54.880 --> 01:46:58.479
everything I like is old. So there's a limited

01:46:58.479 --> 01:47:02.899
amount of it. And when I find a band that I didn't

01:47:02.899 --> 01:47:05.520
know about that has a couple records or three

01:47:05.520 --> 01:47:08.720
or maybe more, I'm really excited because it

01:47:08.720 --> 01:47:11.239
doesn't happen as much anymore. Because when

01:47:11.239 --> 01:47:13.420
you're younger, you have your whole thing. You

01:47:13.420 --> 01:47:17.239
go, all right, let's check out the Stooges now.

01:47:18.060 --> 01:47:21.420
Or now let's check out the suite or just a whole

01:47:21.420 --> 01:47:23.380
bunch of bands with albums and you can just,

01:47:23.399 --> 01:47:25.960
they got a thing and you could just do it. When

01:47:25.960 --> 01:47:28.420
you run out of them, then you're going to, you're

01:47:28.420 --> 01:47:31.180
relying on more and more obscure stuff and it's

01:47:31.180 --> 01:47:35.520
less likely to happen. But, but it does still

01:47:35.520 --> 01:47:39.579
take me there. Just, it does not. I've really

01:47:39.579 --> 01:47:42.960
explored the bands I like a lot. And like, I've

01:47:42.960 --> 01:47:47.539
listened to the Beatles a lot. Yeah. And. Listen

01:47:47.539 --> 01:47:51.039
to David Bowie a lot. And so I'm not going to

01:47:51.039 --> 01:47:54.159
have that rise and fall of Ziggy Stardust and

01:47:54.159 --> 01:47:56.380
Spiders from Mars the same way I did when I was

01:47:56.380 --> 01:47:58.359
20, where I just couldn't believe it. I had to

01:47:58.359 --> 01:48:01.539
listen to it again and again. So I don't know

01:48:01.539 --> 01:48:06.560
if it's as time goes by, just my cynicism, the

01:48:06.560 --> 01:48:10.319
weight of the world. Because the world got real

01:48:10.319 --> 01:48:13.220
stupid, too. It's hard to, like... Like, the

01:48:13.220 --> 01:48:14.859
things that meant something, they don't mean

01:48:14.859 --> 01:48:18.880
the same things anymore. And you wonder if what

01:48:18.880 --> 01:48:22.000
this is doing is still doing the same things

01:48:22.000 --> 01:48:25.800
that it was intended to. Like, parody is so hard

01:48:25.800 --> 01:48:30.520
now. It's like, a month later, it becomes reality.

01:48:31.119 --> 01:48:33.460
The Onion is just, The Simpsons and The Onion

01:48:33.460 --> 01:48:36.399
just predict what really happens in real life.

01:48:36.579 --> 01:48:40.500
Yeah. So, it's weird. I'm really hungry now.

01:48:40.600 --> 01:48:45.100
No. This has been so great. What are you most

01:48:45.100 --> 01:48:48.119
excited about? What should people check out?

01:48:48.199 --> 01:48:50.479
What do you want to plug? I want to give you

01:48:50.479 --> 01:48:53.979
a chance to. Look for the Monster Squad. The

01:48:53.979 --> 01:48:57.859
Zars album, the first album's on vinyl for the

01:48:57.859 --> 01:49:00.140
first time ever, even though that was in the

01:49:00.140 --> 01:49:02.539
contract with Hollywood Records way back when.

01:49:03.359 --> 01:49:06.239
It sounds fantastic. Oh, thank you. It's super

01:49:06.239 --> 01:49:10.520
nice packaging. It's everything I like about

01:49:10.520 --> 01:49:13.000
a vinyl pressing. It's super high -quality pressing,

01:49:13.060 --> 01:49:16.800
too. Definitely. I'll put a link to where you

01:49:16.800 --> 01:49:19.840
can pick that up in the description. Super. So

01:49:19.840 --> 01:49:21.560
then that might come out again with some bonus

01:49:21.560 --> 01:49:25.479
tracks, like an extended version. Okay, Usher.

01:49:25.880 --> 01:49:30.840
I said, okay, Usher. There's limited extra tracks

01:49:30.840 --> 01:49:32.159
that we have to even put on there, but there

01:49:32.159 --> 01:49:36.739
would be. It's not like a whole list. No, I was

01:49:36.739 --> 01:49:40.020
just... He put out his whole other album for

01:49:40.020 --> 01:49:47.579
one song. Anyway. And they put out a CD. Omnivore,

01:49:47.640 --> 01:49:50.939
that label, put out a CD called The Drug Boy

01:49:50.939 --> 01:49:53.340
Tapes, which is demos that made up the first

01:49:53.340 --> 01:49:57.399
album. I think it's pretty nifty. It should be

01:49:57.399 --> 01:50:00.020
interesting to people. I don't know. And then

01:50:00.020 --> 01:50:02.600
looking forward for the Monster Squad coming

01:50:02.600 --> 01:50:06.680
out. And who knows what's down the road because

01:50:06.680 --> 01:50:10.460
when I make more music, then I feel slightly

01:50:10.460 --> 01:50:15.159
less shame. When you work more. Yes, exactly.

01:50:15.420 --> 01:50:19.539
One last question for you, Jeff. What has kept

01:50:19.539 --> 01:50:23.760
you persistent in all this? To other artists

01:50:23.760 --> 01:50:27.119
who've maybe had setbacks over the years, what

01:50:27.119 --> 01:50:31.000
do you say to them in terms of not giving up?

01:50:31.159 --> 01:50:35.319
I gave up, though. I gave up. it's hard not to

01:50:35.319 --> 01:50:39.439
give up you can give up all you want you still

01:50:39.439 --> 01:50:44.579
have to do it it's like you have to do these

01:50:44.579 --> 01:50:47.460
things and there's no you just stop doing it

01:50:47.460 --> 01:50:52.199
and it can be in other avenues you can you can

01:50:52.199 --> 01:50:56.699
do it other ways but but honestly i mean like

01:50:56.699 --> 01:51:01.199
life is really stupid and I can't believe how

01:51:01.199 --> 01:51:02.840
stupid it ended up being. I thought it was going

01:51:02.840 --> 01:51:05.659
to be less stupid than this by a lot, but it's

01:51:05.659 --> 01:51:09.600
more stupid than I could have imagined. And you

01:51:09.600 --> 01:51:13.420
might as well dance around. And if you're dancing

01:51:13.420 --> 01:51:15.239
in the mirror with a tennis racket, acting like

01:51:15.239 --> 01:51:18.420
you're doing a solo, it's not that much different

01:51:18.420 --> 01:51:21.279
from doing it for real. So you might as well.

01:51:22.399 --> 01:51:24.659
Jeff, thank you so much for your time. This has

01:51:24.659 --> 01:51:27.119
been awesome. It's been a lot of fun. Thank you

01:51:27.119 --> 01:51:29.829
for having me on. Let you know when it's coming

01:51:29.829 --> 01:51:31.270
out and there'll be links to everything you just

01:51:31.270 --> 01:51:33.210
talked about in the description to make it easy

01:51:33.210 --> 01:51:36.270
for people to find it. Awesome. Thank you so

01:51:36.270 --> 01:51:38.069
much, Jeff. All right, dude. I'll talk to you

01:51:38.069 --> 01:51:42.289
later. Well, that was my talk with Jeff Whalen.

01:51:43.149 --> 01:51:46.470
I am excited to see what he's got coming next.

01:51:47.569 --> 01:51:49.949
It's also nice to know that he still puts out

01:51:49.949 --> 01:51:55.750
music. It's really good to check it out. I really

01:51:55.750 --> 01:52:02.270
enjoyed. talking to someone that I was able to

01:52:02.270 --> 01:52:05.350
kind of share with them how much their music

01:52:05.350 --> 01:52:11.109
meant to me. I think that was a really cool experience,

01:52:11.609 --> 01:52:14.989
probably for both of us, if I'm being honest.

01:52:15.970 --> 01:52:20.590
Jeff was super nice to me back in the day when

01:52:20.590 --> 01:52:24.090
I was a kid. He was super nice to me now. He

01:52:24.090 --> 01:52:25.989
still puts out great records. Check them out.

01:52:26.130 --> 01:52:29.470
Keep your eyes open for Monster Squad. I think

01:52:29.470 --> 01:52:32.050
that sounds like it's going to be a lot of fun.

01:52:32.989 --> 01:52:36.710
Next week, we've got Kevin Lane of The Arcs,

01:52:36.949 --> 01:52:43.949
The Lanes, lots of other bands. We get into it

01:52:43.949 --> 01:52:46.750
deep. You're going to be hearing a lot more about

01:52:46.750 --> 01:52:51.479
The Arcs over the next few months. And that's

01:52:51.479 --> 01:52:54.279
all I'm going to say about that. You don't want

01:52:54.279 --> 01:53:00.619
to miss it. I went up to Athens. I think if there's

01:53:00.619 --> 01:53:03.220
anything that we can take away from this season

01:53:03.220 --> 01:53:07.859
coming up, things don't always go to plan. Things

01:53:07.859 --> 01:53:11.060
don't always happen the way you hope or expect.

01:53:12.239 --> 01:53:16.979
But Hank Green, who's a YouTuber and... I don't

01:53:16.979 --> 01:53:20.680
know, entrepreneur, multifaceted, talented individual.

01:53:21.840 --> 01:53:24.260
He put out a video recently where he talks about

01:53:24.260 --> 01:53:28.460
how he tries not to have goals and hopes and

01:53:28.460 --> 01:53:33.180
dreams or like an end game. And he just tries

01:53:33.180 --> 01:53:36.420
to solve problems and do interesting things with

01:53:36.420 --> 01:53:38.539
the tools that he has. And those tools include

01:53:38.539 --> 01:53:45.390
himself, his relationships, his skill set. His

01:53:45.390 --> 01:53:49.350
actual tools. But I think that I probably have

01:53:49.350 --> 01:53:51.449
a similar approach in the way that I do my work.

01:53:52.270 --> 01:53:54.810
If you listen to my finale at the end of season

01:53:54.810 --> 01:53:57.789
two, I mentioned several names that I was planning

01:53:57.789 --> 01:54:01.729
to interview. And I'll tell you, life happens.

01:54:02.909 --> 01:54:05.050
Most of those got rescheduled. Actually, they

01:54:05.050 --> 01:54:08.390
all got rescheduled. So we have an entirely different

01:54:08.390 --> 01:54:11.590
lineup for you. But those are coming your way.

01:54:11.630 --> 01:54:16.180
Don't worry. anyhow just tune in hit that subscribe

01:54:16.180 --> 01:54:21.079
button we got a lot of cool episodes Danny Bedrosian

01:54:21.079 --> 01:54:23.079
from Parliament Funkadelic will be on later this

01:54:23.079 --> 01:54:27.779
season you don't want to miss it thanks for tuning

01:54:27.779 --> 01:54:28.060
in