This is overeducated and underemployed. I'm here
with Therese Wichello. We've already been giggling
a little bit. Catching up. We know each other,
but not super well. That's the best part. So
you're going to get to know both of us a little
bit better here on this episode. Therese is a
musician, a songwriter, a music teacher, but...
Someone who I have found to be incredibly knowledgeable
about the way that music is structured and the
way that it works. You're someone who demonstrates
that to people in a literal way and not through
their songs. Thank you. Therese, what's the first
song you remember loving as a child? So my dad
was a jazz musician from England. And one of
his favorite things to... listened to was classical
voice, was like opera and jazz vocalists as well,
but more so like really classical voice. And
I think that really, that shaped me as a kid
because the first song I can ever remember really
loving is a weird one. It's so strange. It's
called From an opera called Carmina Burana by
a guy named Carl Orff. The guy that did the Orff
instruments. Yeah, the Orff dude. Do you remember
how old you were when you first, maybe not heard
it, but realized what you were listening to?
Definitely. I was eight. And my mother had gotten
really sick. Just like... A typical sickness,
nothing insane, but for a long time. It lasted
a while, and I can remember wanting to make her
feel better. And so I spent the weekend at my
father's house, and I listened to Intrutina.
And I sang it for her at her, I guess it was
her bedside? And she couldn't believe that she
was hearing me sing opera. That was the big...
thing was she couldn't, she was like, how did
you learn this? How did this happen? And I told
her that it was my dad. It was dad. And he had
taught me this opera and had taught me about
how this opera worked. And Intrutina just stuck
with me. So I sang it to her, and she was like,
what is this? What the heck is that? So not only
were you inquisitive about it, but you made somebody
else inquisitive about it immediately. Yes, totally,
totally, yes. And she said, I can't, what is
this? And it was, yeah, it was all my dad's influence.
It was him listening to operas and listening
to the arts program, as he would say. It was
on PBS, the arts program. I'm looking for my
Sigmund Freud action figure. But tell me about
your father. He was a British musician from Portsmouth,
England. And he was an amazing human being for
us. Yeah, he met my mother on a cruise in Miami.
And he was playing the saxophone, the jazz saxophone.
And she was on the cruise. I guess it was just
fate after that. They met each other. I just
handed her the Sigmund Freud action figure for
context. Oh God, that's great. He's holding a
cigar and she just noticed. My God, it's perfect.
Oh my God, it's so perfect. It looks like my
dad too. I think I'm going to start whenever
I, I think I'm just going to carry this in my
sound bag from now on. And whenever I start to
ask about people's parents. Just hand them the
segment for an action. It's perfect. It's an
actual, like his arms move. You make him smoke
the cigar. It's not just a stat. It's an action
figure. His elbow is moving to smoke the cigar.
I think his wrist moves. I'm sorry, but weirdly
he looks like my father. I'm not kidding. I was
asking you a serious question and handing you
something ridiculous at the same time. And that's
not exactly fair. All right. So your dad was
a jazz musician. Yes. From Portsmouth. Yes. And
he came to live in America. Also a wonderful
human being, I believe you said. Just an amazing
human being, really. And I think that's important
to note because a lot of artists come from people
who aren't necessarily amazing human beings.
And that can cause some of the turmoil that drives
that artistic. fire or something but that's not
the case with you yeah no he's he started everything
he was the beginning of my entire musical love
he started me on the piano and I could smack
the keyboard at his house and it was all just
it was really fun and games with him and when
I would visit him it would be a typical time
would be him putting on music and asking me how
I felt What does this piece make you feel? That's
pretty awesome when I think about it. Do you
remember the first time he did that? Or what's
the first time you remember him doing that? I
guess is a better way to phrase that question.
Yeah. It was, I think it was the four seasons.
Of all these four seasons, I'm pretty sure. Either
that or it was another Carmina Burana. But I
remember the four seasons and him not telling
me the title of the piece, but playing all four
seasons for me. And at one point, I matched up
with the name of the season. I was like, this
feels like spring and springtime and flowers
and birds. And he was like, whoa, you're right.
Wow. It's Springtime by Vivaldi. Yeah, I remember
that. Yeah. So when was the first time you remember
getting into music that your family didn't turn
you on to? What it was, it was the first musical
that I was in, which was Cinderella, the Rodgers
and Hammerstein. They cast me as Cinderella,
and it was in like a... joint school where they
had all of the grades, but they were a little
separated in different parts of the building.
And I was the only sixth grader that was asked
to do the high school musical. And then she said,
you know what? Yeah, they said, I think you should
be Cinderella. And I was like, wow, okay, let
me do that. And I just remember. falling in love
with musicals i was in into the woods after that
that's probably my favorite i love that one so
much into the woods and my chorus teacher i remember
one day i think i don't know what was going on
with her but she we could tell what was happening
with her because like i i knew i know her i knew
her a little bit and she like she wasn't like
a party lady or anything like that but she was
She had a day where she did not give a shit.
I think the Friday was going to have a sub. But
the class was too short to watch Into the Woods
in one day. And she was on her way on vacation
on Thursday. So she's like, all right, we're
going to watch Into the Woods. And I'm in sixth
grade. And the original with Bernadette Peters,
the amazing one, not the bastardization that
Disney did. And it's probably been my favorite
musical ever since. It's so... yet, like, dark
and twisted. Yeah, weirdly dark. And it was,
in a lot of ways, it's not even, it's just the
source material. But it was my first introduction
to, like, that Grimm's Brothers versions of the
fairy tales. Yeah, totally. Totally. There's
just so much going on. And, like, they have a
children's production of it that they just don't
have the second act. It's only the first act.
Everybody dies in the second act. Spoiler. If
you haven't seen Into the Woods, then you might.
I don't give a shit that I just spoiled it for
you. I'm sorry. Sorry. That's your problem. And
it's time to leave the woods. That's very accurate.
I think you've told me who you played in. Was
it the baker's wife? Yeah. The baker's wife.
She's got a couple of the best songs in the whole
show. I can remember. What is that song called?
Nothing is alone. No one is alone. Truly. That
song is timeless. It's good for so many occasions.
I just got chills. I love that song. It's hard
to see the light now. Oh, love that song. Love
that song. Yeah, that was a great time and a
great piece to be able to sing. So when you started
relating to like the lyrics of songs, was it
through... Toddlerhood. Oh, okay. It wasn't through
musicals then. It was like immediately. So you
always listen to the lyrics. Like the lyrics
were always important to you? That you can remember?
Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Yep. Yeah. Yep. Me too. I
felt, yes. I felt like if they had lyrics, if
it was an instrumental piece, fine. If it had
lyrics, absolutely. I had to relate. Like foreign
music where you couldn't under, they were singing,
but they, yes. And it's just like another instrument.
It absolutely. Because you don't know. Exactly.
Exactly. Yeah. I, there's a Swedish band called
Dunion that I really love and I have no idea
what the fuck they sing about at all. I've seen
them alive twice or maybe three times. I have
no idea what the fuck they're saying in part.
That's, it's not like I can't find out, but,
That's kind of part of the beauty of it. Hey,
you get to enjoy it the way your ears are. By
the way, when you did know what they were saying,
is that like how you found parts of yourself
growing up? Like when you have a character to
identify with instead of just a song or lyrics.
And I'm assuming that you have that connection
to songs in both worlds. Definitely. What do
you think the main difference is, though, when
you're connecting to a character and all of their
songs in a musical? Yeah. And I'm sure sometimes
it's just parts of that. For me, because of the
age that I was doing all this theater, I was
like 12 to 19. Like that chunk of my life. So
I related so hard to... I found relation, connection,
in pretty much every character. It was like a
release for me. Do you think it was necessary
for you to perform it well? Definitely. Absolutely.
You had to find yourself in those characters.
Absolutely. It was such a natural thing. For
me to get lost in those characters. For me to
get lost in their music and in them. Where's
this Freud action figure? No. Okay, so how did
you relate to Cinderella? Are you asking Freud
or me? No, I'm asking you, but I want you to...
Who are you asking? When I get psychological
and Freudian here, tell me about your mother.
Tell me about your evil stepmother. In all honesty,
though, but the first time you performed a character,
how did you connect to them? And you can talk
about in what ways it was real and what it wasn't
or you want or don't want. It was definitely,
it was the first, it was Cinderella. I was really
young. I didn't really know exactly who I was
at the time. I think then, for the first one,
It was me relating to feeling inferior, like
relating to I'm the younger sister. I have an
older sister. And just being able to release.
I don't know. It feels like a release on stage.
It feels like you're I don't know why. It feels
like a release in the audience sometimes, too.
Yeah. Yeah. In fact, I think that's why I've
seen my favorite band as many times as I've seen
them is because. Yeah. And it's different in
a musical. It would be a faux pas to sing along
at a musical. Sure. It's an amazing. Although
maybe not at American Utopia. Maybe that's okay.
When he plays Burning Down the House, maybe everybody's
allowed to sing along. But typically, even when
I saw American Idiot, it would have been weird
if I started singing along. Definitely. Whereas
a concert, you know the words, the band gets
into it. Yeah. How do you think as an audience
member of musicals, the experience is different
for you? Oh my gosh. It's completely different.
It's totally different. When I'm on stage, I
am that person. I am their lyrics. I am their
words. I am their everything. I'm their movements.
I'm their costume. I'm their voice. I am them.
And it just, it's like a... I guess it's like
a weird positive disassociation. You are now
this human being for the next two and a half
hours. In a way, it's like, okay, this is...
But you're not like a method actor. You don't
pretend to be Cinderella for six months. No,
not at all. Not at all. It just, I don't know.
Yeah, you get into that character and it is a
momentary total difference from whatever your
life is. So when you approach the concerts that
you put together, which are very much, it's almost
like a concept show in the way that like a concept
album would be a concept album, right? You put
together the, but do you view it different than
like a musical performance? Or do you almost
feel like I'm going to be this person that I've
maybe created? But I'm going to be that person
for a couple hours that performs these songs.
I'm going to take people on a time piece. Depends
on the show. If I'm doing that, I do a jazz time
machine show twice a year. And there's one coming
up in September. That, for me, is a character
that I like. Are tickets available for that yet?
Tomorrow they will be. I'll have the link in
the description. Perfect. Yeah, it's... Honestly,
one of the best things I've ever done. It's so
much fun. The whole room is decorated in antiques
from the 30s and 40s. And my hair is done in
that style. I have a dress from the vintage store,
the local vintage store. I'm a garb. Yeah. It's
so much fun. And it's some of my favorite. It
goes back to my father. It's some of my favorite
music, weirdly, at 37, is like 30s and 40s jazz.
No, I mean, I love that stuff. It's my favorite.
Yeah, no, I especially like Big Band and Swing.
I like to say that I listen to Ella when I'm
happy and Etta when I'm sad. It's a perfect description.
And I don't think I came up with it. I don't
remember where it's from. Ella was one of my
first vocal loves. Yeah. Had a big poster of
Ella, Louis Armstrong, and Dizzy Gillespie in
my room as a kid. And Cannonball. Yeah. So you
started playing piano really young. Yeah. And
that was, I don't want to say put on you because
it sounds like you enjoyed it very young, but
your dad was like, you should play piano. He
had, he always had instruments around. So one
of the normal like activities when you would
go to dad's house was tinkering on the piano.
And he would allow, that's the best part. He
would allow different sounds to be made and kid.
Shit. It happened. And he's a really versed musician.
But he wasn't coming in and being like... Exactly.
He was really open about... Like the parents
from Charlie Brown. Yeah, that's it. He was so
open about it that it made me feel like I really
wanted to explore about it. So I would often
just tinkle on his keyboard. What do you think
drew you to the piano before any other instrument?
Was it just that freedom? Or do you think there's
more to it than that? I think really the first
thing I was drawn to was the voice. The first
thing I ever really felt so comfortable in, felt
like I could communicate with very clearly was
music. And for me, it early. Almost like it was
your love language. Yes, that's it. That's it.
It is. You're not the first person I've talked
to to say that. That is the way I have communicated
and felt for years, ever since I was a really
young child, was that music could say the things
that maybe I couldn't quite articulate. Yeah.
Or maybe even were a little bit scared to say.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yep. So did you
find yourself being way more courageous when
you were playing a role than when you were just
you? That's a great question. It just popped
into my head. It's a great question. So I am
really comfortable in who I am now. I'm 37. I
have been through quite a bit, and it has shaped
me. Thank God, I think it shaped me in this way
to where I really know who I am. I know my boundaries.
I know what I want and what I don't. I know what
I'm going after and what I'm not. Yeah, yeah.
That's nice. I do know. I feel like I'm in the
same place. Yeah, for the first time maybe ever.
I completely understand that because playing
theater roles was like a comfort blanket for
me. It would be me. It was like your mask? And
I say that as like a neurodivergent person. I
understand completely. Yes, fellow. Yes, I, yes.
It allowed me, it allowed me to be weirdly completely
myself, but I wasn't. I was somebody else. So
I was completely them. And everybody loved it.
Everybody was like, wow, you are this. But almost
gone. Because like six months later, the role
is over. You can be somebody else if you want.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, and when I think about
it, I think in a certain way, maybe it hindered
me really finding the core of who I am a little
earlier. Because it was me using those characters
as a lot of different things. When did you start
writing your own songs? And we can talk about
the events leading up to it in a minute, but
just maybe timeline -wise. My first song I ever
wrote was in 2002. I think maybe I had wrote
a few little melodies as a kid. Possibly. But
the first complete lyric melody done. Did you
write poetry as a kid or anything like that?
Yeah, I did. I did. I wrote a lot of poetry.
Yep. Loved expressing myself. Do you think there's
a difference between a poem and a song other
than the fact that it's set in music? Awesome
question. I don't even know. Not so much. To
be very honest with you, if you shmush your brain
a little bit and just think of the two at the
same time. There are so many crossovers. In fact,
when I'm teaching, a lot of the things about
marking sections are the same as marking out
poetic phrases. Sections will be like A, B, C,
B, A, B for a poem. It's the same thing in music.
You find the section of the music and where it
seems like it's totally changing is a new section.
To be honest, no. But what's funny is... Writing
things down is different for me than saying things.
You ever use like dictation software or anything
like that? No. That's my enemy. Because writing
things down, I don't know, it helps me so much
to have time to write it and then to let it sit
and then to go back to it. I don't know why I...
Sometimes words just, and maybe that's my neurodivergent
self. Sometimes I lose my words, especially in
like highly emotional situations. Sure, yeah.
It is hard for me to separate thinking of what
words to say versus the feelings that I'm feeling.
I totally relate. Okay, okay. It's hard sometimes.
Communicating our feelings as like neurodivergent
people is like one of the main things that we
struggle with. Absolutely. absolutely which is
why i think so many neurodivergent people like
david byrne is neurodivergent yeah or at least
like everybody everybody's pretty sure i don't
know that he i'm pretty i'm almost positive he's
like openly said it but Nobody's like, really?
I think also, neurodivergency, there's such a
freaking spectrum. But if you look at him 20
years, if you watch Stop Making Sense, he barely
talks to the audience at all. There you go. He
sings his ass off, but he barely talks. There's
such a spectrum to begin with, and then there's
such a learning curve, such a thing. Which is
why when you watch American Utopia, he talks
to the audience a lot more, which is 25 years,
30 years later. You started writing songs. Much
later, but you were writing poetry the whole
time. How many of your poems have you turned
into songs over the years? Any? Actually, no.
Now that I think about it, no, none of them.
I don't even know where they are, those first
poems. They're pretty good, too. But in the move,
like I'm from upstate New York originally. Rochester.
Yeah. Yeah. So being from there and coming here
is a big difference. You lose a lot of things
too, but yeah, it's big difference. Big, massive,
especially in like in the teaching. I can remember
I just had a lesson with someone and I was talking
about this. The way you shape vowels from the
top part of the country to the bottom part of
the country is so vastly different. And that's
a huge part of what I do and what I teach is
to become aware of the way you're saying your
vowels. Not that I want to change who you are
and how you speak, but when you sing, shaping
them. Especially in a group. Especially so in
a group. Yep. We should mention Therese is a
choir director as well as a music teacher. I
am. There's a lot of different facets in which
you might sing a different way. Absolutely. Yeah.
Yeah. The shaping of those vowels, that ah, eh,
ee, oh, ooh thing is so pivotal in teaching voice.
And when I moved from upstate to Florida, it
was such a stark difference between the two.
Was it like culture shock to you? A little bit.
Yes, yes, a little bit. Yes, it was. What are
some of the things that stand out? Oh, my gosh.
My best friend, I have a few great friends, but
my best friend right now, her name is Patrice.
I taught her voice and her accent. She's from
Panama City. She grew up in Panama City. The
way that she shaped, and I will never forget,
it was the word oil. To this day, it's an ongoing
joke for us because we were on it for 30 minutes.
And it was so funny for the both of us. We're
both laughing our butts off because she was trying
to shape it the way I was. And it was just such
a funny shaping moment for the both of us. I
really, I realized a lot about, do you know about
diphthongs? Yeah, I do. The idea of making it
into two sounds is so different. It's the idea
that when you're supposed to have one vowel sound,
it's made into two. A lot of times you'll find
this over like a whole note or two half notes
in choral music. Absolutely. So for me, a big
word was out. Where I was from, just the word
out was one syllable, one idea, one thing, and
you would say out. Out. And then when I moved
down here, it was out. It was like three sounds.
And I was like, out. I was like, wow, that's
like three different sounds and I'm only doing
one. So it showed me when I first moved here
that the way we even daily, the way we speak,
the way we use vowels and use language. It shapes
the way we sing so much. It's crazy. And it's
so different from the top of the country to the
bottom. It's so different. You mentioned that
at first playing these roles helped you find
yourself. Yeah. And then maybe it started to
hinder it. Definitely. Where do you think that
line was for you? I think for me, it was my age.
It was when I needed. To really discover who
I was and how I was going to survive and how
I was going to live in the world as me. That
came at just the right time when I was stopping
theater. It was dwindling and other things took
over. When did you stop doing theater and move
more into learning? Was it when you went to college?
I was about 19, 20. Yeah, exactly. After NYU,
I spent a year and a half at NYU, and then I
moved down here after my dad passed. And I'm
honestly really grateful for the difference that
I experienced because it's so different. And
in good and bad ways, it's just so different.
So many things are new. And in the beginning,
it was amazing. It was so beautiful. And it still
is, but just like the Spanish moss people take
for granted. I feel like when you moved here,
like the leaves still change colors in the fall.
That's something that's changed here in the last
20 years for sure. Where like in the fall, nothing
happens. The differences between upstate New
York and specifically Tallahassee, they're still
there for me. The Spanish moss is still here.
The sunsets, the ocean, the... The humidity.
But not the fireflies. Yup. Yup. There, there
were, and there was a, in her dad's backyard,
there was a giant like swarm of fireflies. And
I was like, Oh my God. They still exist in parts
of town. Oh my God. Yeah. So. You moved to Tallahassee
for college. I did. And you had a bit of. All
right. So I'm going to go back a little bit,
though, because you mentioned you've alluded
to the fact that maybe your parents weren't together.
Yeah. Visit your dad. Can you tell me about your
mother? Where's for that? There you go. Oh, there
he is. Okay, so when did your parents separate?
Were they ever married? Yeah, they, I was, gosh,
I was about six months old when they separated.
So you don't ever were like a wife of them together.
Thankfully, they were really friendly as co -parents,
and they would do. a lot with us together. It
was limited when, how much time it was together.
I think that's healthy too. Especially for them.
Yeah. But in general, like boundaries are important.
Yes. Boundaries are very important. Yep. But
I think to be honest, I think they did an amazing
job with what was presented to them in life.
Were they young parents? My, I was a young parent.
That's right. You did say that. My mother, my,
Sister and myself. I still am a young parent.
I still am. My sister is older than I, and she
was born in 84. She was my mother's first child,
and I think I was, gosh, she must have been 20.
seven or so when she had my sister and she was
30 when she had me. Okay. So that's super young.
Yeah. Pretty typical. My father, my mom, I think
was 25. Yeah. Yeah. Like a typical, pretty typical
age. It was like, that may have been a little
bit early, but not even really. That was cause
they like both went to college and had careers
pretty early. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But my dad, my
father was quite a bit, he was 25 years older.
than my mother. So he had a lot, he had a lot
more life experience and a lot more happening.
And also subsequently passed earlier. But yeah,
he was 25 years old. So there was that, there
was always that difference as well. Do you think
that, and times change, right? Absolutely. But
as the times have changed, have you like struggled
with that age difference at all in your head?
Because I think, the reason I ask is it's like,
I had to remind myself that it was 37 years ago,
right? Yes. Before I was like, wait a second,
25 years is a... I know. That being said, I think
there's a lot that's changed, not just in our
standards, but in the way that we mature as humans.
Absolutely, yes. So there's reasons beyond just
our morality changing that these standards change.
Absolutely. I guess that's my point. Absolutely.
But so, I don't know, can you... Talk about that
a little bit? Do you want to just delete this
whole thing? No, not at all. The thing that sticks
out in my head was when I was young and we would
go places, my father and I together, or with
my sister as well. People would ask if it was
my grandfather. So I had to converse, especially
when my daughter was like... A teenager. And
she's still a teenager, but she's an adult now.
Yeah. And now, I think it's usually said more
about the person than it did about us. But there
was a couple of times where people would confuse
her for my partner instead of my daughter. Yeah.
And you're saying you had the reverse. Exactly.
And it was always the same response from him.
Generation removed. Yes. Your granddaughter.
It was completely different. To be fair. The
age difference between your dad and you is the
same age difference between my mom and, or maybe
less. Yes. Or maybe a little bit more. You know
what I mean? Yes. Absolutely. It's totally, it
was, and the response from. The lesson there
is don't make assumptions. Yeah. It just makes
an ass out of you and me. It was a great, for
sure visually. It made sense. It would make sense
that I would be his granddaughter. But it was
always, it was the same response from him. He
would always look at me and say, do you want
to tell them or should I? And it was always like,
it would be a joke. So he would give you that
joke. Oh, yeah. It was just hilarious between
us. But not only that, he didn't try to say face.
No, not at all. Or whatever you want to say.
It was jokey between us. But he also gave you
the option, like, he would let you make the joke.
Yeah. I guess is my point. Yeah, totally. Totally.
Yep. So this is a question that I ask a lot of.
And it seems like maybe you don't want to talk
about your mom and that's fine. No, we can. That's
fine. Okay. But I ask the comedians and other
people that have a strong affinity for comedy
this. Yeah. Similarly, what's the first time
you remember really loving a joke? And do you
remember what joke it was? Gosh. Because it sounds
like even though your parents were loving, you
still had things you had to struggle with growing
up, whether it be a sister that you felt maybe
a little bit like you had to live up to or just
the fact that you had just, even if it was the
best case scenario, it sounds like it probably
was, it was still uncommon, different. It created
these stigmas maybe at times that you had to
households. I say this as somebody whose parents
got divorced when I was five. Yeah. I'm not trying
to like. No, I totally. That's exactly it. But
so even in my situation wasn't necessarily ideal.
But I would almost say that the stigma or the
especially on a neurodivergent person to homes
and all that, that can be harder. Definitely.
For us, I think. Yep. For me, I think it was
the fact that I have always related more to my
father. But you spent, it sounds like. But I
spent more time with my mother, who I love. Right.
It's just. You know how I knew that? You told
me you visited your father. Yeah. Yeah. That's
how I knew. Yeah. It was during the week. It
was time with my mother. It was the week spent
there. And then it was every weekend was usually
in some way. Had he pretty much retired from
playing music professionally at that point? He
was done with life. Yes. He, yeah. So you didn't
grow up like going to a bunch of gigs that he
played and stuff like that? I wish. I wish. What's
the first concert you remember going to? The
first one ever? That you remember? That I went
to? Gosh, the Beach Boys. It's the Beach Boys.
The Beach Boys. Yes, yes, it was very hardcore.
Without Brian Wilson, though? I don't even remember.
Okay, so I was... I'm remembering this a little
bit now. Yes, I was... This is good. We're gonna
stay on this thread. Oh, the Beach Boys, gosh.
I was like seven or so. And my mother and stepfather
were both priests, right? So I grew up in a really
sweet, like, super wholesome. You still seem
wholesome. Shut up. Fuck you. I said seen. I
said seen. Yeah, so, yes, you're right. No, no,
it's true. That's my core. Yes, that is. So,
yeah, it was. Yeah, a very, from their perspective,
from my mother and stepfather, he was in my life
since I was like eight. It was just a really
sweet. Of course, my first show was the Beach
Boys. What do you remember? First of all, I will
say you could have gone to other shows before
that that you don't remember, which is why I'm
asking you this in the way that I'm asking you.
What do you think it was about that show that
makes you remember it? What do you remember about
that show? There's not a lot of memories I have
from seven years old. A few of them are concerts,
though. I felt older. I went with my sister,
who is four years older than I. So she was 11.
Yeah, I was, yes. And no adults? No. My parents
were there. They, like, stand in the back? Yeah,
you know. They tried to pretend. Obviously, you
know exactly what happened. That's because that
was, like, my mom. That's exactly it. My mom
took me to so many concerts. Yeah. To be fair,
I don't think I've ever dragged my mom to a concert
that she didn't enjoy. Oh, that's great. That's
great. But I have had to drag her to several.
Yeah, yeah. I understand. I understand. I think,
like, my mom is usually, like, if anything I've
ever been able to give back to her, it's that
I've dragged her to some good shows. Good shows
are worth it. It's worth it. I always go to the
rock show. Always. Always. Your parents are hiding
in the back of the beach, boys. Your sister's
trying to pretend like she's cooler than you.
You see the whole scene. No, I do. I'm not looking
at you because I'm looking into the lights. You
see the whole thing. That's exactly what happened.
So your parents are hiding in the back. Yep.
Your sister is, I got my kid sister with me.
And she's trying to seem cool. And she has people
there. Okay, yeah. That are around her age. Or
older. Is there anybody? No! From their kid sister
there? No. It was, maybe, was it church affiliated?
The people who went were. In the early 90s, the
Beach Boys, maybe. I'm just trying to remember.
Churches were getting pretty desperate. Come
on, seriously. I just remember a lot of the people
that I associate with church at that time were
at that church. I don't know. Maybe it was like
a field trip. The first time I ever listened
to Eminem was at a church camp. Shut your mouth.
Yes. You went to church camp too? My church camp
is far too traumatic. But I'll share a couple
of highlights. I heard Eminem for the first time.
Wow. And when this is over, I'll tell you the
downside of it all. I went to church camp, and
I'll tell the funny part. Here's the funny part.
I went to church camp, and it was a horribly
traumatic experience for me. I'm so sorry. And
not the way that anyone can imagine. Perfect,
yep. It had nothing to do with the camp was fine.
The people there were great, at least as much
as they could be with the situation I was in
at the time. My mom was a single mom, and I had
not talked to my dad in a while, who needed a
fucking week. And we made a deal. This was a
deal with the devil. Because it was the summer
of 1999. Oh, the summer of 1999. And I had been
secretly watching South Park in my bedroom for
two years at that point. Do you know that was,
oh, that was banned in my house. Oh, oh, oh,
oh, South Park was the. Just the devil. I still
remember my mom breaking my Alanis Morissette
CD because she said, once you go down on you.
Okay, I need to hear this story. Okay, I think
we've uncovered something. So your dad's turning
you on to music. Your mom's breaking your CDs.
I'm breaking my freaking shit, yeah. Can we talk
a little bit more about this and then I'll go
back to the deal with the devil? Obviously, yes,
totally. It doesn't sound like your mom hated
music. No. She's very still. She's a priest.
She's very religious. So your mom's still with
us. Yep, she's still with us. She is just. Hasn't
retired. What denomination? Episcopalian. Episcopalian.
Yeah, I think that the way that. God, my dad
said this to her. I feel like my father right
now. My father said to her. The way you feel
about God is the way I feel about music. And
I feel the same way. All right, so I've been
waiting for the opportune moment to share this
quote with you. I'm so excited. It's a quote
from Frank Zappa. Yeah? Frank Zappa is probably
my favorite composer of all time. But he was
also somebody, and I think this actually really
fits, he's somebody who had an instrumental album
with a parental advisory sticker. He was one
of the only musicians, if not the only musician,
to testify before Congress when Tipper Gore,
by the way, was trying to put stickers on albums.
Yeah. Which, I don't know about you, but that
was a selling point by the time we were... Total
us. A thousand percent. It was like, if it had
one of those stickers. If it had it, you wanted
it? That's right. It tricked so many kids into
listening to Limp Bizkit. Oh, my God. We were
all tricked. We all drank the Kool -Aid for Limp
Bizkit. All of us. But it was that sticker. And
honestly, the art on the cover was pretty fucking
cool. Listen, we all got fooled. Every one of
us. And I've talked about art on album covers
repeatedly. So Frank Zappa said, information
is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom
is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is
not love. Love is not music. Music is the best.
Sounds like it could have been my father. That's
exactly. And it's still my feeling today. Is
it how you feel? Yes. though I would put a little
bit of a difference in there. I think I have,
but I think he felt the same way. He just didn't
have the words for it, and I think I do. It is
the combination of music is all of that. Music
is everything, including divine. There are ways
that music comes into your life in divine ways,
or people come into your life in divine ways,
and you're like, This just happened. And it's
related to music. Or a song. Or a band. Or a
person who plays a song at the right. For me,
it's all like this. And I think for my mother,
it's like Jesus. Jesus with blood. And for my
dad, it was music. In 2005, Ben Harper put out
an album with the Blind Boys of Alabama. Ah.
And it was called There Will Be a Light. It's
a great record. But there's this interview that
they went on with Johnny fucking Jimmy Fallon.
Yeah. I think it was. I think it was Jimmy Fallon.
I could be wrong. It doesn't matter. Just look
up talk show if you want to see this clip. Ben
Harper is like sitting there. Spirituality. It's
all about. And this is a gospel record they put
out together. Yeah. This is all about spirituality
to me. And this is the guy that wrote Burn One
Down. It's all about just getting in touch with
my spirituality. Totally. And blah, blah, blah.
The blonde boys of Alabama are sitting there.
It's about Jesus. It's about Jesus. And I think,
to be honest, to each his damn own. If you zoom
out and you look at the different way and the
things people have been through and all of their,
whatever. To each his. If you find comfort and
total, like, peace in using Jesus, great. Awesome.
If you find it in being really strictly Islamic,
great. Do it. How strict are you? You know what
I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? Whatever.
So Jesus is awesome, but Christianity is fucked
up. I'm just going to say that. Fuck yeah. Yes.
Yes. I am such a... God, please save me from
your followers. Yeah. Yeah. That's been a big
part of me, I think, too, in the past, like,
four or so years, ever since I got divorced,
the grappling of how my foundations were set.
For me. It's not that I had a crazy traumatic
experience in childhood. It's just that everything
was so set in a box. And then coming out of that
box and going, wow. If you were comfortable in
that box, it almost sounds like that as a neurodivergent
person that wasn't diagnosed until late in life.
Yeah. I feel like I needed more of those boxes.
You know what I mean? And so that box was a comfortable
box. And maybe I was in boxes, but those boxes
weren't comfortable for me. You know what I mean?
Yes, I do. I found my comfortable box. Oh, man.
I was at choir rehearsals and theater rehearsals.
It was either choir rehearsal or play practice
every night. It was like it was my job. I don't
know why I never got into theater. Oh, my God.
Saved me. It saved me. Made friends, made people
who had thoughts like me. I think I was never
at a school. Like, I didn't go to high school.
Yeah. So that's a whole other thing. Yeah. But
my middle school didn't have a theater program.
Didn't have, right. That's another thing. And
I was supposed to be in a production of, like,
a summer production of South Pacific. Oh. And
I, like, checked out a life that summer. Fine.
You know what I mean? Some summers are like that.
That's a whole other story. Some summers are
like that. So I want to bring something back
for a second. And maybe it's too late to capture
this, but the point I wanted to make after bringing
up the Ben Harper Blind Boys of Alabama thing
is that album, even though they had very different
perspectives, they got together and created something
pretty fucking amazing. And you're pretty fucking
amazing, Therese. Thank you. That's so sweet.
Thank you. It sounds like in some ways you got
not the best of both worlds all the time. It
sounds like maybe your dad was a little bit,
I don't want to say uninterested, but uninitiated
in a lot of ways. He was at a point in life where
he was like, I mean, probably just didn't have
the fucking energy to do a lot of things. Yeah.
And your mom had so much energy. That she was
putting it maybe into negative places sometimes,
but also positive places a lot of the time too.
What's like the starkest difference you remember
between being at your mom's house or being at
your dad's house as a kid? That's laughable.
The biggest, unfortunately, is the freedom that
I felt. I felt a lot of freedom. Yeah, I felt
a lot of... I felt like I could be completely
myself with my father. And I felt a lot of restrictions
with my mother. Now, granted, I think as a mom,
when I look back at it, I think that she had
to play a little more of the traditional parental
role. I think he... played into the fact that
he didn't really have to. Did you feel like you
had more of a friendship with your dad? Yes,
a thousand per... He still is my best friend.
He was my best friend on the day he died. He
was my best friend. Today, he is my best friend.
He... Yes, it was so much more of a... But that's
not apparent. I just want to point that out.
Absolutely. Absolutely. There were a lot of parental
things that he did, but it was much more of a,
he would always call me his little me. Oh, you're
like a little me. You're like a little me. And
so it was always, that was the precedent. That
was the precedent. Do you ever think that maybe
sometimes you resent your mother a little bit
more than your father because she had to set
some of the boundaries and the restrictions for
you as a parent? I used to. Yes. Yes, I used
to not realize, recognize that. I used to not.
But now, no, not just because I think as a parent,
you do what you can do. And you said if you're
in that situation, I think she filled in a lot
of good gaps. Yeah, I think she did a good job.
filling in what she needed to. And we all kind
of need an authority to rebel against at a certain
point. Yes, that's right. That's exact. And I
think he enjoyed not being in that role. Anyone
would. Right. And she welcomed being in that.
She, okay, here I am. I'm mom. And this is the
last psychological question about your childhood.
But do you think that was something that, how
do I put it? Do you think that your dad intentionally
let your mother, once she stepped up and set
those boundaries? I think a little bit. I think
he settled into the comfort of it, especially
in his older age. As he got into his 70s. How
old were you when he passed away? See, that's
the thing. I was 19. He was 78. Yeah. Yeah, 61.
He was in his 60s and 70s when I knew him. Yeah,
I do. I think. And I don't think it came from
a place of I don't want to. Like, fuck you. No,
it's like it's being taken care of. Yes. No,
I get that. I think it was. I think my mother
was the mother to all three of us. You're both
you, you're him. Yeah. Love him to death. Forever
and ever. But I think she played a big, I am
the real adult in this situation. Okay, so let's
go into what makes a person artistic in the way.
Do you think that your mother is like an artist
in the way that your father was? No. No. Not
at all. No. Do you think an artist needs someone
to rein them in sometimes? Sometimes, yeah. Especially
someone who. It's a spectrum, right? That's it.
It's a spectrum. Let's put Dave Grohl out there,
who's a really good businessman, really good
business manager, but also an incredible songwriter
and musician. And maybe he wasn't always that
way, but he figured it out. And at a certain
point, he was able to take care of all of it.
Yeah. Even if it was just putting the right people
in the right place with the money he had. Yep.
And that's a privilege. there's people like Kurt
Cobain. Yeah. Just to keep it in the same fucking
realm for a second. Who was completely, may have
written some of the greatest songs of a generation
or whatever. But the point I'm making is that
was your dad that kind of, like maybe not like
a heroin addict, but was your dad that kind of
artist that like needed someone? Or do you think
until your mom came along, he had it pretty good
and then like your mom just made? Shoot a little
bit different. Especially for him, the way that
he, the way that he grew up and everybody has
their like particular cocktail of trauma from
their own. When we created ourselves. Sure. Absolutely.
Absolutely. It's like an autoimmune disorder.
Totally. So true. I think with his particular
like cocktail of trauma and age. And the fact
that he is a musician through and through. He
lived, breathed, everything was music. He would
listen to music or be writing music or be playing
the clarinet. Music is the best. That's it. It
was always music. It was how he connected with
divinity. With the world and divinity. Everything.
He would say to my mother, the exact way you
feel about gorgeous, how I feel about... And
I can remember my mom relaying that story. I
can remember him. Do you think your mom ever
got it? Not in the sense that she understood
what he was saying. But do you ever think she
ever even got a glimpse of that feeling? Because
I'll tell you this. The only way that I've ever
been able to connect with divinity is through
music. The only way. And I'm not a religious
person. I understand. I really understand. And
I wouldn't even say that it's religious music
that makes me feel like I'm connecting with the
divine. I think for her, it is that case. I'm
also not a musician. But I think that's important.
Sure. I'm saying this as just somebody who loves
music. For her, I think everything, again, everybody's
little particular cocktail of trauma, her path
for... understanding and like feeling the divine
and feeling light and being able to meditate
and all that kind of her path was Christianity
was Catholicism and repenting and and but also
the music that I can remember driving in the
car and it was always what's his name John Michael
Talbot is a Christian okay yeah that was that
back in the day Yeah. Yeah. That was my soundtrack
in my mother's car for childhood. It was just
John Michael, some John Denver, but like John
Michael Talbot. Oh my God. Just. So when you
went to see the Beach Boys and I'm going to start
pushing things forward again, because we've spent
a lot of time on a really interesting period,
but I do want to like bring us up to speed too.
What was like, that was edgy. I felt edgy. I'll
tell you that. Well, because you felt old. I
felt edgy. You were the only one there. I was
the only one there in my age group. Yeah. And
I was, I can remember being. Was your sister
inclusive or did she try and keep you like. She
was pretty inclusive. But also. Yeah, totally.
But also because my mother and stepfather were
there. Yeah. Yeah. I can. Yeah. That was like
the big kid concert. That was like me feeling
like a big kid. Finally. Do you remember anything
about it? For me, I think it was, I think it
was the whole experience overall because I had
never been in that setting before, ever. I had
never been in a crowd of people that were all
really excited. I was, yes, but. I was outdoors,
so there must have been two parts. Like maybe
in the amphitheater? Yeah. Or a stadium or something?
And I remember being outdoors for sure. I remember
it was SPAC, Saratoga Performing Arts Center.
Okay. Up in upstate New York. Oh, God. Yeah,
the big band, the Beach Boys. And I thought it
was so badass too. It felt so badass. And it
was the Beach Boys. Do you think like, all right,
so I'm going to go back to a thread that I was
on earlier. When, so sometimes when you perform.
It's more like you're putting on a show. Yeah.
And you're doing almost like you're putting on
your own musical and you're in that mindset,
right? Yeah, for sure. And then there's other
times where you're putting on a show and you're
just playing your songs like a show. It's me,
yeah. And it's you. And you talked about the
difference already between being an audience
member in a musical and being on stage in a musical.
What was the difference for you? I know that
you didn't start performing as yourself until
pretty recently. Relatively speaking, at least.
Absolutely. What do you think is the difference
for you between being an audience member at a
concert and being the person that performs the
concert? And not as a persona, but as you. I
think as me performing, it's such a different
experience for me. I have to connect with my
audience. I have to speak a little bit. I have
to sing some things that... How much of that
is prepared, though, the speaking? None of it.
Totally improvised. Yeah, none of it. Unless
I'm reading the name of the title of the song.
But no, none of it's free. You don't have prepared
stories about songs? No, not really, no. No.
Things just pop up, and I like it that way. I
like the fact that it's... Have you ever done
improv? Like, I know you've done a lot of theater.
A little, but, like, in practice in a theater
rehearsal. You know what I mean? Right. You've
never. Trying to do it. You've never been, like,
part of an improv crew. No. Oh, my gosh. No.
So what do you think is, like, the key difference
for you in getting into the mindset for a role
and getting into a mindset for a show of your
own music and being. Oh, my gosh. So different.
Is it different? And for, yeah, for a role, it
is, it has very, especially in the beginning,
it has very little to do with me. It's the character
and it's, I have to read up on them and who,
what they like and what they do and why they're
singing this song and what's their relationship
with them and blah, blah. Then it becomes me.
Then I'm like, I feel like I'm the character.
But for when it's my show and it's either my
songs or. my songs and covers on a theme, something,
then that is me. That's me expressing all of
what I need to in that moment. Yeah. This is
something I remember pretty well. So I'm going
to set you up and let you just tell the story
the best of your ability again. Set me. So you
moved to Tallahassee to go to college. And you've
alluded to the fact that you're now divorced.
You never talked about getting married. Yeah.
And from what I understand, your divorce and
everything was a big catalyst for you writing
your own music. Yes, big time. If you could just
maybe first tell me a little bit about your experience
moving to Tallahassee for school, not so much
the culture stuff. We talked about that. And
then just what... I don't want you to flash through
20 years or 15 years in five minutes, but tell
me what you think is important, and then we'll
dissect that, if you will. So out of high school,
I was accepted to NYU, and it was awesome. It
was just so expensive, so freaking expensive.
And I made the... decision to move with the rest
of my family to Florida and it was it became
a school decision because I knew I wanted to
switch to another music school and FSU seemed
pretty pretty outstanding so I went to that music
school and in the school they in the jazz section
they have you audition for combos and they'll
take a certain number of people a group of people
that they feel like would work well together
in a combo. And I was chosen for a combo with
this lovely, handsome human being that ended
up becoming my husband and Mira's dad. And it
solidified the fact that I wanted to stay in
Tallahassee because... I wanted to build my life
here. I had moved a little bit in New York and
then I made the big move to Florida. I just didn't
want to move anymore. So when I met Mira's dad,
I made the decision that I was really going to
build my life here. And we both decided to stay
here and then got married in the Keys. And we're
still really close. We're still... really good
friends and work well together. But I think the
big thing that kept us here was each other. We
wanted to be together and create a life together
in this place. Another thing, too, was I realized
that there was such a need in Tallahassee for
community music, music not affiliated with the
university or any university here. So I think...
Having him start the studio and then he does
the same job that I do, it just was really conducive
to us staying here. So we ended up staying in
Tallahassee. And even through divorce, we both
stayed here and we're still really close and
navigating all of that. But when you first connected,
it was like purely over music. It was completely
musical. We met in a practice room after. Which
goes back to what I was, like, music is your
lovely. Yes, it is. It is. I can, when I couldn't
find the right words myself, it was always music
that did the job. Always. Yep. So you stayed
here. You had a kid. I did. Out of my body. She
came out of my body. That's trippy as fuck. I
know. And then COVID happens. Almost immediately.
Like, how old was your daughter in March of 2020?
Two. Yeah. So she doesn't even remember. She
remembers a tiny little mask. It's almost like
people a little younger than us, they don't remember
a time before 9 -11. Exactly. Yep. Exactly. Yeah,
that was weird. You're in middle school. Yeah.
Let me ask you. Everybody does. Where were you
on 9 -11? I was in the music room. I was in the
music room in upstate New York. And they made
an announcement to the school. Did they turn
on the television in time for you to see the
second plane? No. Not at all. My God. I think
a lot of schools made that mistake. Oh, my God.
Seriously. I wasn't at school that day. Oh, you
weren't? I wasn't. Like I said, I didn't go to
high school. And I think I'm not sure if I went
back after 9 -11. Yeah, that was a time. So she
doesn't even remember it. So how old was she
before she got to start to live life a normal
human that was cognizant of being out in the
world? When she went to pre -K, I will never
forget this. When she went to pre -K, she went
with a mask on. And it was her first experience
at a school. What was she protesting? Seriously.
It was the... God, it was so... What a strange
time that was. And they weren't even sure that
they were going to let the kids... It was so
weird. It was so... My daughter was in middle
school. Yeah. It was just very strange. Very
strange time. Yeah. So, a lot of divorce lawyers
were super busy during COVID. Uh -huh. Do you
think that COVID directly... A thousand percent.
Of course. But do you think it, so I think there's
two, two ways mainly that I've seen it really
impact relationships. And one was it like exposed
that the relationship was flawed. And like once
the two people were forced to spend a bunch of
time together, they were like, this sucks. And
then there was, and then there was just like
people who like learned more about themselves.
And then maybe that wasn't. entirely compatible
with the person yeah was it more of the latter
for you it sounds like or both maybe i do think
it was both i think it's always a little bit
yeah for us it was very mental health related
we the both of us needed to make sure that we
were happy stable human beings by ourselves and
that was never going to happen together i see
that now We needed to have time for us to fix
ourselves. Both of us. Equally. Equally. Yeah.
How much do you think songwriting had to do with
healing yourself? So much. I fell a little in
love in between my divorce and now. And to be
honest, right now, I consider us really... reconciling
currently we're we're really we are so good right
now and i love it i love the place that we're
at between divorce and now i fell in love and
i grappling with that and the way that that all
happened and then the way that it didn't happen
it's different after you've been married after
that that security or whatever that is yeah And
so that. That's a charitable term. It's different.
It's different. And it hit me different. It hit
me. I was in a really vulnerable state anyway.
And I probably, I really should not have been
allowing myself to have my heart open. For sure.
But it was. But you did. But I did. And it's
what happened. And it, oh my God, it sparked
so many great songs. I have some good songs because
of that. That's my first songwriting was after
feeling that, that love. And then that subsequent
heartbreak or whatever that was, but it had to
be post divorce. Are you, are you now converted?
Let me tell you, like, I think that there's like
comedians and songwriters that will say yes to
experiences. They might not say yes to. Just
because maybe I'll get 10 minutes of material
out of it. Maybe I'll get a few songs out of
it. There's no way I would do that. Maybe not
consciously. No way. But there's no way I would,
no. I don't even necessarily mean like a romantic
experience. Yeah. But just like a life experience.
Like maybe just like me and a sketchy group of
people. Totally. That was my New York, my NYU
experience. I was 18 and I was accepted to NYU.
I went to their music department, their vocal
department. I was an 18 -year -old. I think about
this now with Mira, and I'm like, oh, my God.
Oh, my God. I was an 18 -year -old, loose in
New York City, living in the West Village. What
business did I have living in the West Village?
In the mid -2000s. Hi. Like 2005. What business
did I have doing that? None. It was 2008. 2008.
Yes. And it was. awesome. But one of the experiences
I had, it was I waited overnight outside of a
venue to get the first, I think it was first
20 tickets were free or something, for a private
Fiona Apple concert. And I met the coolest people
ever. It was cool as hell. Some really great
gothic people, some really punky gothic people.
And I'm Therese the priest's kid. Oh God, I had
fun. I stayed up all night. Oh, it was great.
It was so much fun. Oh, it was amazing. It was
absolutely incredible. I wasn't sure what I was
expecting, but I waited in the line. I got a
tip from a girl who lived on our floor and she
was a promoter. And so she knew. who would be
like the famous people in the area at the clubs
at certain times. So she would tell the people
on our floor. I met John Mayer outside of this
one club and it was just because she knew somehow
that was like her job to know. So she knew that
was going to happen. And she was like, listen,
if you want, go now and wait outside this club,
blah, blah, blah. And if you're one of the first,
I think it was 25 people, you get in for free.
And I was one of the first. And it was the most
amazing concert. Oh, my God. It was less than
100. Oh, it was amazing. It was like a fancy
little bar. Not too fancy, but a fancy little
bar. Yes! That was the album that I fell in love
with. And I've gone back. Her first few records
are great. Yeah. But really, to me, like that
and the two or three since that. Yeah. Like Tidal
and the Idler Wheel, et cetera. Et cetera, et
cetera, et cetera. Like those three records.
Yeah. Oh, Tidal's really good. Extraordinary
Machine, the Idler Wheel, and then, fuck, she
just put one out. in 2020 yeah oh god i'm not
gonna remember the name of it though that was
so memorable even the show she put on it she
had that straight hair it was she was just it
was she can be hit or miss though like she doesn't
like to perform god it was amazing it's incredible
but she's somebody that got really hurt by the
industry you know yeah yeah yeah yeah so what
was your first song about Yeah, we're time traveling
a little bit, but that's okay. That's okay. Trying
to think. First song was, it's a song called
Dessert. And a friend of mine, much older than
I, a student of mine, gave me the best advice.
She gave me the best. She was like, she knew
the person that we had fallen for each other.
She knew him. And she knew the situation that
we were in. He was not completely out of the
relationship that he was still in. It's a shock
that it didn't work out. Shocking, right? Absolutely
shocking. The scandal of the century, let me
tell you. And so she said to me, she said a line
to me in a lesson that I was like, you are a
genius and I'm going to write a song about that
because I know it's going to be therapeutic.
She said, you can't live on dessert alone. She's
like, Therese, I know how good this feels. I
see you when you're together. I see the chemistry.
I see it all. But you can't live on dessert alone.
You have to see how – and I was like, whoa. So
I wrote this. She said you can't live on dessert
alone. I'm really grateful that through the experiences
and especially through pain, through – a heartache
where you could feel it, that I had music, that
I could write down words, how I felt, how the
situation, whatever, how I think they felt, and
then create it and formulate and cross things
out and move things here. That is so therapeutic
to me. So now that you're in a better place,
how do you approach songwriting? I haven't. Uh
-oh. Isn't that crazy? I... Here's my question.
If you go long enough without writing songs,
are you going to lose touch with the thing that's
making you okay? That's a great question. Actually,
I was just prompted to do another songwriter's
night where I need to have a few more songs.
And I thought this. I was like, huh, all of the
songs that I've written have been during a time
of great change. A lot of change. But not only
that, I want to stop you from saying, you've
told me today that they were part of that change.
Absolutely. Fundamental part. Do you think that
continuing to write songs is a fundamental part
of trying to be who you are from now on? Yes.
From now on, yeah. Absolutely. Now it's an avenue.
That's what I've been getting at. It's not just
the life experience. No, now it's an avenue.
Now writing songs, that's something that's uncompromising.
Yep. And it's mine. Whenever I want to do it,
however, and whenever I feel like it. I don't
need to write a song in a year if I don't want
to. No. But if it comes, if it's bubbling. Have
all your songs come like that? Or have you ever
sat down and been like, I'm writing a song about
X? Never. It was always, I need to get this out.
Let me get this out of my body. So I have somewhere
else to put it. Has it ever been the opposite
where you were like, you had your antenna up
and something maybe not happened to you, but
you observed something and you were like, I have
to write about this. Because I've heard that
like analogy a lot. Lake Ella. Yes. I was at
Lake Ella once and I knew I wanted to write something
as like an ode to. My time, all the different
experiences that I've had in that area, my time
there. There you go. Feeding the ducks. I've
been going there. I went to that church. Oh,
yeah. That scout house there. Yeah. Oh, okay.
So I wrote, that's probably the only song I have,
I believe, that was written that way. I was,
I knew I wanted to do like an ode to Lake Ella.
And so I, that was my mindset. But everything
else was I need this out of my body. Get this
feeling out or let's talk about this. And before
I start to ask you about things that you have
coming up or what you've got going on right now,
just to follow up on that, have you ever written
a song like from a point of view that wasn't
yours as a character? Because as someone who
loved musicals so much and it's such a foundational
part. Have you ever thought about that? Just
maybe that's an avenue that you have to force
a little bit more. It's not going to bubble out
of you. But I think the creative force, like
once it's unleashed. It's a great idea. It has
to go somewhere. Yeah. It started as more therapy
for me. But now, I'm sure. Well, now you're like,
I just signed up for the songwriters. Yes, exactly.
Yeah. You tell a story about the first time I
ever signed up for stand -up comedy. Yeah. I
didn't have, I had probably a couple of things
that I'd said in the past that I turned into
jokes that I put on that set. But I didn't have
any, oh, this is a joke I would tell on stage
if I ever did. I literally signed up. I'm like,
I'm going on in two weeks. Ooh. I've got five
minutes. I've got to write five minutes of material.
And in a way, it forced me to do it. And so I'm
wondering, did you sign up for that because you
felt the need to write more songs but didn't
necessarily know where they were going to come
from? The very first songwriter, I've done two
of them. The first one I did, I needed more songs.
I got an email that said eight to ten pieces,
and I had five. And I was like, shit, I need
to write more pieces. So it came out of necessity
the first time. Second time around, I used a
lot of the ones from before, but I did, I wrote
a few new ones. And they were just inspired.
They were not, it wasn't, I want to write about
this or this. But then this next round, I think
I want to do more that. I was inspired by like
Ella. I felt really open to the area and memories
started flooding back. I think it's definitely
worth exploring now, putting myself in a different
perspective or a different time frame even. Yeah.
So let's shift to what you've got coming up.
First of all, how long is your waiting list for
music classes? And that's actually if you have
a few more minutes. Yeah. Yeah. Why did you end
up focusing what to you is so important about
music education above that to where you wanted
to devote your life to it? A couple things. I
am not the type of person who can work daily
in something that I don't love. Me neither. I
would probably not be on the planet if that were
the case. If I had a desk job. I can't. I just
can't do it. It's not in me. It's not in me.
I tried for a long time because I felt like I
had to. Same. And I was just met with repeated
failure. Yeah. I just can't do it. I can't. So
through being really poor and very underfunded
as a human being, I started. Would you say that
you're overeducated and underemployed? I'm just
curious. Not everybody I've talked to. Not now.
How long is your waiting list? I have 13 people
on the list right now. Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm
going to, like literally tomorrow, I think it's
going to be less, but that's fine. Yeah, no,
I have 13 people and I'm freaking proud to say
it. It's been 16 years now of teaching lessons
privately, one person at a time and then word
of mouth. And I know I'm good at it. I know.
That it is my, like, we're talking about divine
stuff. Like, this is my gift to explain vocal
stuff in a relatable way and to head things,
to personally, one -on -one, but also in a choir
setting, to be able to relay information in a
positive, relatable manner. So, first of all,
like, as somebody who has received... some of
your instructions and education. I completely
agree that you are fabulous at what you do. Thank
you. Or I wouldn't be sitting here with you right
now. That being said, I am very curious, like,
where you draw the line with a student where
you think, okay, I can't help them any more than
I already have. When you have a waiting list
of 13, I imagine you approach it a little bit
like a doctor where it's, or a lawyer where it's,
if you're not, if you're not holding up your
end of the bargain, maybe I'm not the teacher
for you. It's usually, luckily it's been very
organic up until now where knock on all the wood
around people naturally. will either fade out
or their money will fade out or they'll move.
Or it happens, but it happens. She's not cheap,
folks. Their money runs out. I need to drive.
I need them. Thank God, though. It all has happened
in a pretty organic timing way. And I figured
it out like by last year. I figured it out. You
make a new schedule at the start of the summer.
Then you make another new schedule at the start
of the school year. And just all these little
things you figure out. Well, everybody's schedule
changes. Oh, gosh. So overall, I am going to
keep you. If you are showing effort, if you still
want it. I guess at a certain point, like if
they don't want it, they're not going to pay
for it. That's right. And it usually will happen
that, you know, it happens in so many ways. People
will text me and say, I love you so much. I just
can't afford it right now. Or I've loved what
I've learned and I'm moving. Right. So many different
things. So my job is to never take offense, first
of all, to hope that I've given them a good,
solid singing foundation. foundation and to keep
moving forward. Have any like really long running
students that you want to like give a shout out?
Oh my gosh. Yes. I have three that are still
with me. One, her name is Ellie Hall. I have
been with her for just so many years. It was
almost since I first moved here. And then my
first ever. Students are still with me. The younger
one took a break at one point, and they'll take
summers off sometimes, but they are still with
me. Meda and Viba, they're a sister pair. And
they, oh, what voices! Ah! Just raw, gorgeous
voices. Beautiful human beings, too. Just to
take a 10 ,000 -foot view of all this for a second.
What do you think is the importance of arts education,
not just music education, in a more public setting
where it's not... You've been fortunate enough
to be able to teach students who really want
to focus on it. What about the students that
don't know they need arts education? What about
the parents of students who don't know they need
arts education? What do you view as the value
of music and art education? To being like a holistic
human being. Oh my God. Massive. Massive. What
do you see in the young students that you teach?
Oh, it's the best. In terms of development and
things that they realize. It reminds me of myself.
It's that ability to be, to have freedom, to
have choices, to have creative outlet, to hear
a song. being played by you or being sung by
you that you've heard on, I was going to say
the radio, but this is the radio anymore, that
you've heard on Spotify for so long. And it's
them recognizing that they can make those sounds
too. It can come out of you too. It feels amazing.
I watched a TED Talk this week. Yeah? And one
of the things that, it was all about... how to
justify being a creative person when the world
is on fire. And one thing that she said that
has stuck with me probably eternally from now
on is that when you're the creator of something,
you're the god of your own universe. And it sounds
like instilling the ability... For people to
be the gods of their own universe. Hell yes.
Hell yes. With 14 periods after that. Hell yes.
With good technique, too. Hell yes. So you're
also a choir director. Yes. Can you talk about
your approach to a community choir that's a little
bit different from the traditional community?
Yeah. I think a lot of community bands, community
theater, community choirs try to find a spot
for every voice. Yep. And that's great. That's
got its place. That's not necessarily what you're
up to. Yeah. So can you talk about the difference
there for a second? My idea behind this group
was for it to, yes, be accessible. to the community
for it not to be related or affiliated with any
university because that's a big thing in this
city. There's a lot of great university music
that can be made. But if you're not affiliated
with it, it's hard to find like quality group.
And there's a lot of people in the community
that aren't affiliated with the university at
all. So those people just need to be found. That's
the thing. And I felt like there's that sort
of niche that needs to be. filled here in Tallahassee
where there are good musicians. I have some amazing
musicians in that group of people. No, I'm out
of my league. No, stop. I know you're nice and
you're being kind and I don't even necessarily
mean in terms of my voice, although I think that's
up for debate too, but I am the least versed
musician in that room by far. Isn't it cool to...
I think that is freaking awesome. That's what
I want. I would. That's my dream. I want people
of very different musical backgrounds. As long
as they have a solid voice, we can make any kind
of amazing group with you. Anything can happen.
Also because there are different reading abilities.
There are different sustaining abilities. Literally,
physically, we have a couple of blind members
in our group. Yes! Last week, when you said something
about we're going to try it without sight reading,
I'm like, I was going to remind everybody that
there's a couple of people that never. Step it
up. Step that shit up. Totally, dude. Totally.
And it's crazy, too, how amazing of a musician
she is. Oh, my God. It's so cool. God, I could
talk to you all night, but. The next thing that
I have coming up is in September is the Jazz
Time Machine. That's the biggest one. You beat
me to it. That's coming up in September. And
then actually three of my... The three of the
students in my studio are putting on a triple
bill. So it'll be the three of them, 45 minutes
each at the Blue Tavern. That's the thing after
that. I think I'll be a part of that. I'll be
accompanying and I'll be there, of course. And
then eventually they'll be that songwriters.
I forget when that even is, but here I am. Any
last words? No, just this is so fun. I could
do this for hours as well. This is very fun.
You make this very easy. Maybe we should just
start a podcast. Just hours of us going, and
then in music. And then in my life.