WEBVTT

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This is overeducated and underemployed. I'm here

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with Therese Wichello. We've already been giggling

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a little bit. Catching up. We know each other,

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but not super well. That's the best part. So

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you're going to get to know both of us a little

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bit better here on this episode. Therese is a

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musician, a songwriter, a music teacher, but...

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Someone who I have found to be incredibly knowledgeable

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about the way that music is structured and the

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way that it works. You're someone who demonstrates

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that to people in a literal way and not through

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their songs. Thank you. Therese, what's the first

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song you remember loving as a child? So my dad

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was a jazz musician from England. And one of

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his favorite things to... listened to was classical

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voice, was like opera and jazz vocalists as well,

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but more so like really classical voice. And

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I think that really, that shaped me as a kid

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because the first song I can ever remember really

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loving is a weird one. It's so strange. It's

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called From an opera called Carmina Burana by

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a guy named Carl Orff. The guy that did the Orff

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instruments. Yeah, the Orff dude. Do you remember

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how old you were when you first, maybe not heard

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it, but realized what you were listening to?

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Definitely. I was eight. And my mother had gotten

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really sick. Just like... A typical sickness,

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nothing insane, but for a long time. It lasted

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a while, and I can remember wanting to make her

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feel better. And so I spent the weekend at my

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father's house, and I listened to Intrutina.

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And I sang it for her at her, I guess it was

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her bedside? And she couldn't believe that she

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was hearing me sing opera. That was the big...

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thing was she couldn't, she was like, how did

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you learn this? How did this happen? And I told

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her that it was my dad. It was dad. And he had

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taught me this opera and had taught me about

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how this opera worked. And Intrutina just stuck

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with me. So I sang it to her, and she was like,

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what is this? What the heck is that? So not only

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were you inquisitive about it, but you made somebody

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else inquisitive about it immediately. Yes, totally,

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totally, yes. And she said, I can't, what is

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this? And it was, yeah, it was all my dad's influence.

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It was him listening to operas and listening

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to the arts program, as he would say. It was

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on PBS, the arts program. I'm looking for my

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Sigmund Freud action figure. But tell me about

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your father. He was a British musician from Portsmouth,

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England. And he was an amazing human being for

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us. Yeah, he met my mother on a cruise in Miami.

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And he was playing the saxophone, the jazz saxophone.

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And she was on the cruise. I guess it was just

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fate after that. They met each other. I just

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handed her the Sigmund Freud action figure for

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context. Oh God, that's great. He's holding a

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cigar and she just noticed. My God, it's perfect.

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Oh my God, it's so perfect. It looks like my

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dad too. I think I'm going to start whenever

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I, I think I'm just going to carry this in my

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sound bag from now on. And whenever I start to

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ask about people's parents. Just hand them the

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segment for an action. It's perfect. It's an

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actual, like his arms move. You make him smoke

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the cigar. It's not just a stat. It's an action

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figure. His elbow is moving to smoke the cigar.

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I think his wrist moves. I'm sorry, but weirdly

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he looks like my father. I'm not kidding. I was

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asking you a serious question and handing you

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something ridiculous at the same time. And that's

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not exactly fair. All right. So your dad was

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a jazz musician. Yes. From Portsmouth. Yes. And

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he came to live in America. Also a wonderful

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human being, I believe you said. Just an amazing

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human being, really. And I think that's important

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to note because a lot of artists come from people

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who aren't necessarily amazing human beings.

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And that can cause some of the turmoil that drives

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that artistic. fire or something but that's not

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the case with you yeah no he's he started everything

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he was the beginning of my entire musical love

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he started me on the piano and I could smack

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the keyboard at his house and it was all just

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it was really fun and games with him and when

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I would visit him it would be a typical time

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would be him putting on music and asking me how

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I felt What does this piece make you feel? That's

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pretty awesome when I think about it. Do you

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remember the first time he did that? Or what's

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the first time you remember him doing that? I

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guess is a better way to phrase that question.

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Yeah. It was, I think it was the four seasons.

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Of all these four seasons, I'm pretty sure. Either

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that or it was another Carmina Burana. But I

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remember the four seasons and him not telling

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me the title of the piece, but playing all four

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seasons for me. And at one point, I matched up

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with the name of the season. I was like, this

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feels like spring and springtime and flowers

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and birds. And he was like, whoa, you're right.

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Wow. It's Springtime by Vivaldi. Yeah, I remember

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that. Yeah. So when was the first time you remember

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getting into music that your family didn't turn

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you on to? What it was, it was the first musical

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that I was in, which was Cinderella, the Rodgers

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and Hammerstein. They cast me as Cinderella,

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and it was in like a... joint school where they

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had all of the grades, but they were a little

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separated in different parts of the building.

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And I was the only sixth grader that was asked

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to do the high school musical. And then she said,

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you know what? Yeah, they said, I think you should

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be Cinderella. And I was like, wow, okay, let

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me do that. And I just remember. falling in love

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with musicals i was in into the woods after that

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that's probably my favorite i love that one so

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much into the woods and my chorus teacher i remember

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one day i think i don't know what was going on

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with her but she we could tell what was happening

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with her because like i i knew i know her i knew

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her a little bit and she like she wasn't like

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a party lady or anything like that but she was

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She had a day where she did not give a shit.

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I think the Friday was going to have a sub. But

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the class was too short to watch Into the Woods

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in one day. And she was on her way on vacation

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on Thursday. So she's like, all right, we're

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going to watch Into the Woods. And I'm in sixth

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grade. And the original with Bernadette Peters,

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the amazing one, not the bastardization that

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Disney did. And it's probably been my favorite

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musical ever since. It's so... yet, like, dark

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and twisted. Yeah, weirdly dark. And it was,

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in a lot of ways, it's not even, it's just the

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source material. But it was my first introduction

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to, like, that Grimm's Brothers versions of the

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fairy tales. Yeah, totally. Totally. There's

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just so much going on. And, like, they have a

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children's production of it that they just don't

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have the second act. It's only the first act.

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Everybody dies in the second act. Spoiler. If

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you haven't seen Into the Woods, then you might.

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I don't give a shit that I just spoiled it for

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you. I'm sorry. Sorry. That's your problem. And

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it's time to leave the woods. That's very accurate.

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I think you've told me who you played in. Was

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it the baker's wife? Yeah. The baker's wife.

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She's got a couple of the best songs in the whole

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show. I can remember. What is that song called?

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Nothing is alone. No one is alone. Truly. That

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song is timeless. It's good for so many occasions.

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I just got chills. I love that song. It's hard

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to see the light now. Oh, love that song. Love

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that song. Yeah, that was a great time and a

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great piece to be able to sing. So when you started

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relating to like the lyrics of songs, was it

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through... Toddlerhood. Oh, okay. It wasn't through

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musicals then. It was like immediately. So you

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always listen to the lyrics. Like the lyrics

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were always important to you? That you can remember?

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Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Yep. Yeah. Yep. Me too. I

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felt, yes. I felt like if they had lyrics, if

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it was an instrumental piece, fine. If it had

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lyrics, absolutely. I had to relate. Like foreign

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music where you couldn't under, they were singing,

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but they, yes. And it's just like another instrument.

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It absolutely. Because you don't know. Exactly.

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Exactly. Yeah. I, there's a Swedish band called

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Dunion that I really love and I have no idea

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what the fuck they sing about at all. I've seen

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them alive twice or maybe three times. I have

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no idea what the fuck they're saying in part.

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That's, it's not like I can't find out, but,

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That's kind of part of the beauty of it. Hey,

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you get to enjoy it the way your ears are. By

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the way, when you did know what they were saying,

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is that like how you found parts of yourself

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growing up? Like when you have a character to

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identify with instead of just a song or lyrics.

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And I'm assuming that you have that connection

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to songs in both worlds. Definitely. What do

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you think the main difference is, though, when

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you're connecting to a character and all of their

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songs in a musical? Yeah. And I'm sure sometimes

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it's just parts of that. For me, because of the

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age that I was doing all this theater, I was

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like 12 to 19. Like that chunk of my life. So

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I related so hard to... I found relation, connection,

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in pretty much every character. It was like a

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release for me. Do you think it was necessary

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for you to perform it well? Definitely. Absolutely.

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You had to find yourself in those characters.

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Absolutely. It was such a natural thing. For

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me to get lost in those characters. For me to

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get lost in their music and in them. Where's

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this Freud action figure? No. Okay, so how did

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you relate to Cinderella? Are you asking Freud

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or me? No, I'm asking you, but I want you to...

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Who are you asking? When I get psychological

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and Freudian here, tell me about your mother.

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Tell me about your evil stepmother. In all honesty,

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though, but the first time you performed a character,

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how did you connect to them? And you can talk

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about in what ways it was real and what it wasn't

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or you want or don't want. It was definitely,

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it was the first, it was Cinderella. I was really

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young. I didn't really know exactly who I was

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at the time. I think then, for the first one,

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It was me relating to feeling inferior, like

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relating to I'm the younger sister. I have an

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older sister. And just being able to release.

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I don't know. It feels like a release on stage.

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It feels like you're I don't know why. It feels

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like a release in the audience sometimes, too.

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Yeah. Yeah. In fact, I think that's why I've

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seen my favorite band as many times as I've seen

00:13:33.549 --> 00:13:37.529
them is because. Yeah. And it's different in

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a musical. It would be a faux pas to sing along

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at a musical. Sure. It's an amazing. Although

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maybe not at American Utopia. Maybe that's okay.

00:13:49.629 --> 00:13:52.269
When he plays Burning Down the House, maybe everybody's

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allowed to sing along. But typically, even when

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I saw American Idiot, it would have been weird

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if I started singing along. Definitely. Whereas

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a concert, you know the words, the band gets

00:14:03.649 --> 00:14:07.700
into it. Yeah. How do you think as an audience

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member of musicals, the experience is different

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for you? Oh my gosh. It's completely different.

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It's totally different. When I'm on stage, I

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am that person. I am their lyrics. I am their

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words. I am their everything. I'm their movements.

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I'm their costume. I'm their voice. I am them.

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And it just, it's like a... I guess it's like

00:14:33.940 --> 00:14:38.100
a weird positive disassociation. You are now

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this human being for the next two and a half

00:14:40.659 --> 00:14:43.899
hours. In a way, it's like, okay, this is...

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But you're not like a method actor. You don't

00:14:46.139 --> 00:14:48.679
pretend to be Cinderella for six months. No,

00:14:48.820 --> 00:14:52.120
not at all. Not at all. It just, I don't know.

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Yeah, you get into that character and it is a

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momentary total difference from whatever your

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life is. So when you approach the concerts that

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you put together, which are very much, it's almost

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like a concept show in the way that like a concept

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album would be a concept album, right? You put

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together the, but do you view it different than

00:15:20.889 --> 00:15:23.690
like a musical performance? Or do you almost

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feel like I'm going to be this person that I've

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maybe created? But I'm going to be that person

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for a couple hours that performs these songs.

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I'm going to take people on a time piece. Depends

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on the show. If I'm doing that, I do a jazz time

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machine show twice a year. And there's one coming

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up in September. That, for me, is a character

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that I like. Are tickets available for that yet?

00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:52.639
Tomorrow they will be. I'll have the link in

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the description. Perfect. Yeah, it's... Honestly,

00:15:57.600 --> 00:15:59.159
one of the best things I've ever done. It's so

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much fun. The whole room is decorated in antiques

00:16:01.460 --> 00:16:04.639
from the 30s and 40s. And my hair is done in

00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:07.419
that style. I have a dress from the vintage store,

00:16:07.580 --> 00:16:11.419
the local vintage store. I'm a garb. Yeah. It's

00:16:11.419 --> 00:16:14.799
so much fun. And it's some of my favorite. It

00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:17.039
goes back to my father. It's some of my favorite

00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:22.139
music, weirdly, at 37, is like 30s and 40s jazz.

00:16:23.460 --> 00:16:26.379
No, I mean, I love that stuff. It's my favorite.

00:16:26.889 --> 00:16:30.350
Yeah, no, I especially like Big Band and Swing.

00:16:30.669 --> 00:16:33.610
I like to say that I listen to Ella when I'm

00:16:33.610 --> 00:16:36.929
happy and Etta when I'm sad. It's a perfect description.

00:16:37.230 --> 00:16:39.009
And I don't think I came up with it. I don't

00:16:39.009 --> 00:16:41.409
remember where it's from. Ella was one of my

00:16:41.409 --> 00:16:44.429
first vocal loves. Yeah. Had a big poster of

00:16:44.429 --> 00:16:48.809
Ella, Louis Armstrong, and Dizzy Gillespie in

00:16:48.809 --> 00:16:53.649
my room as a kid. And Cannonball. Yeah. So you

00:16:53.649 --> 00:16:57.059
started playing piano really young. Yeah. And

00:16:57.059 --> 00:16:58.799
that was, I don't want to say put on you because

00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:00.759
it sounds like you enjoyed it very young, but

00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:04.279
your dad was like, you should play piano. He

00:17:04.279 --> 00:17:09.200
had, he always had instruments around. So one

00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:14.240
of the normal like activities when you would

00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:17.960
go to dad's house was tinkering on the piano.

00:17:18.380 --> 00:17:20.440
And he would allow, that's the best part. He

00:17:20.440 --> 00:17:23.339
would allow different sounds to be made and kid.

00:17:23.829 --> 00:17:28.390
Shit. It happened. And he's a really versed musician.

00:17:28.849 --> 00:17:30.769
But he wasn't coming in and being like... Exactly.

00:17:31.130 --> 00:17:33.869
He was really open about... Like the parents

00:17:33.869 --> 00:17:37.450
from Charlie Brown. Yeah, that's it. He was so

00:17:37.450 --> 00:17:40.289
open about it that it made me feel like I really

00:17:40.289 --> 00:17:43.849
wanted to explore about it. So I would often

00:17:43.849 --> 00:17:45.869
just tinkle on his keyboard. What do you think

00:17:45.869 --> 00:17:48.849
drew you to the piano before any other instrument?

00:17:49.410 --> 00:17:52.309
Was it just that freedom? Or do you think there's

00:17:52.309 --> 00:17:55.130
more to it than that? I think really the first

00:17:55.130 --> 00:17:58.410
thing I was drawn to was the voice. The first

00:17:58.410 --> 00:18:04.910
thing I ever really felt so comfortable in, felt

00:18:04.910 --> 00:18:08.269
like I could communicate with very clearly was

00:18:08.269 --> 00:18:14.990
music. And for me, it early. Almost like it was

00:18:14.990 --> 00:18:17.390
your love language. Yes, that's it. That's it.

00:18:17.470 --> 00:18:21.150
It is. You're not the first person I've talked

00:18:21.150 --> 00:18:26.029
to to say that. That is the way I have communicated

00:18:26.029 --> 00:18:30.410
and felt for years, ever since I was a really

00:18:30.410 --> 00:18:33.950
young child, was that music could say the things

00:18:33.950 --> 00:18:37.029
that maybe I couldn't quite articulate. Yeah.

00:18:37.109 --> 00:18:40.349
Or maybe even were a little bit scared to say.

00:18:40.369 --> 00:18:44.450
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yep. So did you

00:18:44.450 --> 00:18:47.250
find yourself being way more courageous when

00:18:47.250 --> 00:18:49.170
you were playing a role than when you were just

00:18:49.170 --> 00:18:53.329
you? That's a great question. It just popped

00:18:53.329 --> 00:18:56.789
into my head. It's a great question. So I am

00:18:56.789 --> 00:19:02.230
really comfortable in who I am now. I'm 37. I

00:19:02.230 --> 00:19:07.390
have been through quite a bit, and it has shaped

00:19:07.390 --> 00:19:11.890
me. Thank God, I think it shaped me in this way

00:19:11.890 --> 00:19:14.470
to where I really know who I am. I know my boundaries.

00:19:14.650 --> 00:19:17.430
I know what I want and what I don't. I know what

00:19:17.430 --> 00:19:19.630
I'm going after and what I'm not. Yeah, yeah.

00:19:19.750 --> 00:19:21.650
That's nice. I do know. I feel like I'm in the

00:19:21.650 --> 00:19:23.849
same place. Yeah, for the first time maybe ever.

00:19:24.309 --> 00:19:29.569
I completely understand that because playing

00:19:29.569 --> 00:19:36.990
theater roles was like a comfort blanket for

00:19:36.990 --> 00:19:41.450
me. It would be me. It was like your mask? And

00:19:41.450 --> 00:19:44.130
I say that as like a neurodivergent person. I

00:19:44.130 --> 00:19:49.289
understand completely. Yes, fellow. Yes, I, yes.

00:19:49.349 --> 00:19:57.650
It allowed me, it allowed me to be weirdly completely

00:19:57.650 --> 00:20:03.680
myself, but I wasn't. I was somebody else. So

00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:08.099
I was completely them. And everybody loved it.

00:20:08.220 --> 00:20:10.819
Everybody was like, wow, you are this. But almost

00:20:10.819 --> 00:20:13.720
gone. Because like six months later, the role

00:20:13.720 --> 00:20:16.500
is over. You can be somebody else if you want.

00:20:16.740 --> 00:20:20.960
Yeah. Yeah. You know, and when I think about

00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:24.319
it, I think in a certain way, maybe it hindered

00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:29.279
me really finding the core of who I am a little

00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:35.190
earlier. Because it was me using those characters

00:20:35.190 --> 00:20:39.670
as a lot of different things. When did you start

00:20:39.670 --> 00:20:42.450
writing your own songs? And we can talk about

00:20:42.450 --> 00:20:45.509
the events leading up to it in a minute, but

00:20:45.509 --> 00:20:49.750
just maybe timeline -wise. My first song I ever

00:20:49.750 --> 00:20:56.950
wrote was in 2002. I think maybe I had wrote

00:20:56.950 --> 00:20:59.349
a few little melodies as a kid. Possibly. But

00:20:59.349 --> 00:21:02.549
the first complete lyric melody done. Did you

00:21:02.549 --> 00:21:04.069
write poetry as a kid or anything like that?

00:21:04.069 --> 00:21:06.349
Yeah, I did. I did. I wrote a lot of poetry.

00:21:06.529 --> 00:21:09.490
Yep. Loved expressing myself. Do you think there's

00:21:09.490 --> 00:21:11.890
a difference between a poem and a song other

00:21:11.890 --> 00:21:14.390
than the fact that it's set in music? Awesome

00:21:14.390 --> 00:21:17.829
question. I don't even know. Not so much. To

00:21:17.829 --> 00:21:21.069
be very honest with you, if you shmush your brain

00:21:21.069 --> 00:21:24.430
a little bit and just think of the two at the

00:21:24.430 --> 00:21:29.519
same time. There are so many crossovers. In fact,

00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:32.720
when I'm teaching, a lot of the things about

00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:37.140
marking sections are the same as marking out

00:21:37.140 --> 00:21:40.619
poetic phrases. Sections will be like A, B, C,

00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:43.460
B, A, B for a poem. It's the same thing in music.

00:21:43.660 --> 00:21:46.660
You find the section of the music and where it

00:21:46.660 --> 00:21:48.900
seems like it's totally changing is a new section.

00:21:49.180 --> 00:21:54.339
To be honest, no. But what's funny is... Writing

00:21:54.339 --> 00:21:58.200
things down is different for me than saying things.

00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:01.980
You ever use like dictation software or anything

00:22:01.980 --> 00:22:06.940
like that? No. That's my enemy. Because writing

00:22:06.940 --> 00:22:11.400
things down, I don't know, it helps me so much

00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:15.799
to have time to write it and then to let it sit

00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:19.079
and then to go back to it. I don't know why I...

00:22:19.500 --> 00:22:22.599
Sometimes words just, and maybe that's my neurodivergent

00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:25.720
self. Sometimes I lose my words, especially in

00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:28.160
like highly emotional situations. Sure, yeah.

00:22:28.299 --> 00:22:32.480
It is hard for me to separate thinking of what

00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:35.599
words to say versus the feelings that I'm feeling.

00:22:35.940 --> 00:22:38.859
I totally relate. Okay, okay. It's hard sometimes.

00:22:39.059 --> 00:22:42.640
Communicating our feelings as like neurodivergent

00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:44.680
people is like one of the main things that we

00:22:44.680 --> 00:22:47.400
struggle with. Absolutely. absolutely which is

00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:49.880
why i think so many neurodivergent people like

00:22:49.880 --> 00:22:52.960
david byrne is neurodivergent yeah or at least

00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:56.180
like everybody everybody's pretty sure i don't

00:22:56.180 --> 00:22:58.339
know that he i'm pretty i'm almost positive he's

00:22:58.339 --> 00:23:01.519
like openly said it but Nobody's like, really?

00:23:01.900 --> 00:23:04.700
I think also, neurodivergency, there's such a

00:23:04.700 --> 00:23:07.500
freaking spectrum. But if you look at him 20

00:23:07.500 --> 00:23:09.859
years, if you watch Stop Making Sense, he barely

00:23:09.859 --> 00:23:11.819
talks to the audience at all. There you go. He

00:23:11.819 --> 00:23:14.839
sings his ass off, but he barely talks. There's

00:23:14.839 --> 00:23:18.019
such a spectrum to begin with, and then there's

00:23:18.019 --> 00:23:21.920
such a learning curve, such a thing. Which is

00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:23.700
why when you watch American Utopia, he talks

00:23:23.700 --> 00:23:26.420
to the audience a lot more, which is 25 years,

00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:30.700
30 years later. You started writing songs. Much

00:23:30.700 --> 00:23:33.579
later, but you were writing poetry the whole

00:23:33.579 --> 00:23:35.819
time. How many of your poems have you turned

00:23:35.819 --> 00:23:39.400
into songs over the years? Any? Actually, no.

00:23:39.740 --> 00:23:41.799
Now that I think about it, no, none of them.

00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:44.299
I don't even know where they are, those first

00:23:44.299 --> 00:23:47.380
poems. They're pretty good, too. But in the move,

00:23:47.500 --> 00:23:50.420
like I'm from upstate New York originally. Rochester.

00:23:51.769 --> 00:23:54.730
Yeah. Yeah. So being from there and coming here

00:23:54.730 --> 00:23:56.670
is a big difference. You lose a lot of things

00:23:56.670 --> 00:24:01.490
too, but yeah, it's big difference. Big, massive,

00:24:01.549 --> 00:24:04.509
especially in like in the teaching. I can remember

00:24:04.509 --> 00:24:07.289
I just had a lesson with someone and I was talking

00:24:07.289 --> 00:24:11.390
about this. The way you shape vowels from the

00:24:11.390 --> 00:24:13.589
top part of the country to the bottom part of

00:24:13.589 --> 00:24:18.289
the country is so vastly different. And that's

00:24:18.289 --> 00:24:21.269
a huge part of what I do and what I teach is

00:24:21.269 --> 00:24:25.089
to become aware of the way you're saying your

00:24:25.089 --> 00:24:27.349
vowels. Not that I want to change who you are

00:24:27.349 --> 00:24:30.349
and how you speak, but when you sing, shaping

00:24:30.349 --> 00:24:33.109
them. Especially in a group. Especially so in

00:24:33.109 --> 00:24:36.109
a group. Yep. We should mention Therese is a

00:24:36.109 --> 00:24:38.589
choir director as well as a music teacher. I

00:24:38.589 --> 00:24:41.230
am. There's a lot of different facets in which

00:24:41.230 --> 00:24:45.329
you might sing a different way. Absolutely. Yeah.

00:24:45.890 --> 00:24:50.180
Yeah. The shaping of those vowels, that ah, eh,

00:24:50.180 --> 00:24:54.119
ee, oh, ooh thing is so pivotal in teaching voice.

00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:59.740
And when I moved from upstate to Florida, it

00:24:59.740 --> 00:25:02.640
was such a stark difference between the two.

00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:04.900
Was it like culture shock to you? A little bit.

00:25:04.900 --> 00:25:07.680
Yes, yes, a little bit. Yes, it was. What are

00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:10.200
some of the things that stand out? Oh, my gosh.

00:25:10.599 --> 00:25:13.539
My best friend, I have a few great friends, but

00:25:13.539 --> 00:25:15.220
my best friend right now, her name is Patrice.

00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:19.740
I taught her voice and her accent. She's from

00:25:19.740 --> 00:25:22.220
Panama City. She grew up in Panama City. The

00:25:22.220 --> 00:25:24.759
way that she shaped, and I will never forget,

00:25:24.819 --> 00:25:31.609
it was the word oil. To this day, it's an ongoing

00:25:31.609 --> 00:25:35.849
joke for us because we were on it for 30 minutes.

00:25:35.990 --> 00:25:39.329
And it was so funny for the both of us. We're

00:25:39.329 --> 00:25:42.269
both laughing our butts off because she was trying

00:25:42.269 --> 00:25:46.089
to shape it the way I was. And it was just such

00:25:46.089 --> 00:25:50.029
a funny shaping moment for the both of us. I

00:25:50.029 --> 00:25:52.190
really, I realized a lot about, do you know about

00:25:52.190 --> 00:25:56.720
diphthongs? Yeah, I do. The idea of making it

00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:00.420
into two sounds is so different. It's the idea

00:26:00.420 --> 00:26:02.460
that when you're supposed to have one vowel sound,

00:26:02.660 --> 00:26:05.180
it's made into two. A lot of times you'll find

00:26:05.180 --> 00:26:08.460
this over like a whole note or two half notes

00:26:08.460 --> 00:26:12.859
in choral music. Absolutely. So for me, a big

00:26:12.859 --> 00:26:15.619
word was out. Where I was from, just the word

00:26:15.619 --> 00:26:20.039
out was one syllable, one idea, one thing, and

00:26:20.039 --> 00:26:23.220
you would say out. Out. And then when I moved

00:26:23.220 --> 00:26:26.740
down here, it was out. It was like three sounds.

00:26:27.220 --> 00:26:31.160
And I was like, out. I was like, wow, that's

00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:34.680
like three different sounds and I'm only doing

00:26:34.680 --> 00:26:38.380
one. So it showed me when I first moved here

00:26:38.380 --> 00:26:42.500
that the way we even daily, the way we speak,

00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:47.220
the way we use vowels and use language. It shapes

00:26:47.220 --> 00:26:51.740
the way we sing so much. It's crazy. And it's

00:26:51.740 --> 00:26:54.539
so different from the top of the country to the

00:26:54.539 --> 00:26:56.960
bottom. It's so different. You mentioned that

00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:00.380
at first playing these roles helped you find

00:27:00.380 --> 00:27:03.059
yourself. Yeah. And then maybe it started to

00:27:03.059 --> 00:27:05.140
hinder it. Definitely. Where do you think that

00:27:05.140 --> 00:27:11.599
line was for you? I think for me, it was my age.

00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:15.799
It was when I needed. To really discover who

00:27:15.799 --> 00:27:18.299
I was and how I was going to survive and how

00:27:18.299 --> 00:27:22.980
I was going to live in the world as me. That

00:27:22.980 --> 00:27:26.579
came at just the right time when I was stopping

00:27:26.579 --> 00:27:31.039
theater. It was dwindling and other things took

00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:35.019
over. When did you stop doing theater and move

00:27:35.019 --> 00:27:38.680
more into learning? Was it when you went to college?

00:27:39.500 --> 00:27:43.579
I was about 19, 20. Yeah, exactly. After NYU,

00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:45.660
I spent a year and a half at NYU, and then I

00:27:45.660 --> 00:27:50.259
moved down here after my dad passed. And I'm

00:27:50.259 --> 00:27:53.940
honestly really grateful for the difference that

00:27:53.940 --> 00:27:57.460
I experienced because it's so different. And

00:27:57.460 --> 00:28:00.740
in good and bad ways, it's just so different.

00:28:01.099 --> 00:28:05.200
So many things are new. And in the beginning,

00:28:05.240 --> 00:28:07.779
it was amazing. It was so beautiful. And it still

00:28:07.779 --> 00:28:10.220
is, but just like the Spanish moss people take

00:28:10.220 --> 00:28:12.140
for granted. I feel like when you moved here,

00:28:12.220 --> 00:28:14.359
like the leaves still change colors in the fall.

00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:17.319
That's something that's changed here in the last

00:28:17.319 --> 00:28:21.039
20 years for sure. Where like in the fall, nothing

00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:24.440
happens. The differences between upstate New

00:28:24.440 --> 00:28:29.079
York and specifically Tallahassee, they're still

00:28:29.079 --> 00:28:31.500
there for me. The Spanish moss is still here.

00:28:31.660 --> 00:28:35.890
The sunsets, the ocean, the... The humidity.

00:28:36.670 --> 00:28:42.369
But not the fireflies. Yup. Yup. There, there

00:28:42.369 --> 00:28:46.630
were, and there was a, in her dad's backyard,

00:28:46.670 --> 00:28:52.650
there was a giant like swarm of fireflies. And

00:28:52.650 --> 00:28:55.930
I was like, Oh my God. They still exist in parts

00:28:55.930 --> 00:29:00.650
of town. Oh my God. Yeah. So. You moved to Tallahassee

00:29:00.650 --> 00:29:04.470
for college. I did. And you had a bit of. All

00:29:04.470 --> 00:29:05.809
right. So I'm going to go back a little bit,

00:29:05.829 --> 00:29:07.869
though, because you mentioned you've alluded

00:29:07.869 --> 00:29:10.150
to the fact that maybe your parents weren't together.

00:29:10.269 --> 00:29:13.190
Yeah. Visit your dad. Can you tell me about your

00:29:13.190 --> 00:29:15.990
mother? Where's for that? There you go. Oh, there

00:29:15.990 --> 00:29:19.339
he is. Okay, so when did your parents separate?

00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:22.839
Were they ever married? Yeah, they, I was, gosh,

00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:24.619
I was about six months old when they separated.

00:29:24.619 --> 00:29:26.920
So you don't ever were like a wife of them together.

00:29:27.500 --> 00:29:33.319
Thankfully, they were really friendly as co -parents,

00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:38.430
and they would do. a lot with us together. It

00:29:38.430 --> 00:29:41.730
was limited when, how much time it was together.

00:29:41.829 --> 00:29:43.910
I think that's healthy too. Especially for them.

00:29:43.990 --> 00:29:46.309
Yeah. But in general, like boundaries are important.

00:29:46.390 --> 00:29:48.849
Yes. Boundaries are very important. Yep. But

00:29:48.849 --> 00:29:53.430
I think to be honest, I think they did an amazing

00:29:53.430 --> 00:29:56.410
job with what was presented to them in life.

00:29:56.569 --> 00:30:00.849
Were they young parents? My, I was a young parent.

00:30:01.410 --> 00:30:05.049
That's right. You did say that. My mother, my,

00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:08.259
Sister and myself. I still am a young parent.

00:30:08.380 --> 00:30:12.859
I still am. My sister is older than I, and she

00:30:12.859 --> 00:30:17.220
was born in 84. She was my mother's first child,

00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:23.400
and I think I was, gosh, she must have been 20.

00:30:26.140 --> 00:30:28.740
seven or so when she had my sister and she was

00:30:28.740 --> 00:30:32.079
30 when she had me. Okay. So that's super young.

00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:35.619
Yeah. Pretty typical. My father, my mom, I think

00:30:35.619 --> 00:30:39.420
was 25. Yeah. Yeah. Like a typical, pretty typical

00:30:39.420 --> 00:30:42.400
age. It was like, that may have been a little

00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:45.200
bit early, but not even really. That was cause

00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:47.740
they like both went to college and had careers

00:30:47.740 --> 00:30:51.400
pretty early. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But my dad, my

00:30:51.400 --> 00:30:55.160
father was quite a bit, he was 25 years older.

00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:59.819
than my mother. So he had a lot, he had a lot

00:30:59.819 --> 00:31:02.519
more life experience and a lot more happening.

00:31:02.579 --> 00:31:06.359
And also subsequently passed earlier. But yeah,

00:31:06.440 --> 00:31:08.200
he was 25 years old. So there was that, there

00:31:08.200 --> 00:31:11.180
was always that difference as well. Do you think

00:31:11.180 --> 00:31:15.039
that, and times change, right? Absolutely. But

00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:19.299
as the times have changed, have you like struggled

00:31:19.299 --> 00:31:21.539
with that age difference at all in your head?

00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:24.640
Because I think, the reason I ask is it's like,

00:31:25.230 --> 00:31:29.450
I had to remind myself that it was 37 years ago,

00:31:29.490 --> 00:31:32.049
right? Yes. Before I was like, wait a second,

00:31:32.190 --> 00:31:35.650
25 years is a... I know. That being said, I think

00:31:35.650 --> 00:31:37.690
there's a lot that's changed, not just in our

00:31:37.690 --> 00:31:40.710
standards, but in the way that we mature as humans.

00:31:40.910 --> 00:31:45.549
Absolutely, yes. So there's reasons beyond just

00:31:45.549 --> 00:31:48.769
our morality changing that these standards change.

00:31:48.809 --> 00:31:51.009
Absolutely. I guess that's my point. Absolutely.

00:31:51.150 --> 00:31:54.329
But so, I don't know, can you... Talk about that

00:31:54.329 --> 00:31:56.569
a little bit? Do you want to just delete this

00:31:56.569 --> 00:32:02.990
whole thing? No, not at all. The thing that sticks

00:32:02.990 --> 00:32:05.150
out in my head was when I was young and we would

00:32:05.150 --> 00:32:07.529
go places, my father and I together, or with

00:32:07.529 --> 00:32:11.190
my sister as well. People would ask if it was

00:32:11.190 --> 00:32:14.609
my grandfather. So I had to converse, especially

00:32:14.609 --> 00:32:18.380
when my daughter was like... A teenager. And

00:32:18.380 --> 00:32:20.940
she's still a teenager, but she's an adult now.

00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:23.440
Yeah. And now, I think it's usually said more

00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:26.660
about the person than it did about us. But there

00:32:26.660 --> 00:32:29.019
was a couple of times where people would confuse

00:32:29.019 --> 00:32:32.039
her for my partner instead of my daughter. Yeah.

00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:34.019
And you're saying you had the reverse. Exactly.

00:32:34.359 --> 00:32:37.660
And it was always the same response from him.

00:32:37.660 --> 00:32:40.140
Generation removed. Yes. Your granddaughter.

00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:44.279
It was completely different. To be fair. The

00:32:44.279 --> 00:32:47.180
age difference between your dad and you is the

00:32:47.180 --> 00:32:49.960
same age difference between my mom and, or maybe

00:32:49.960 --> 00:32:52.099
less. Yes. Or maybe a little bit more. You know

00:32:52.099 --> 00:32:55.599
what I mean? Yes. Absolutely. It's totally, it

00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:57.359
was, and the response from. The lesson there

00:32:57.359 --> 00:32:59.500
is don't make assumptions. Yeah. It just makes

00:32:59.500 --> 00:33:02.599
an ass out of you and me. It was a great, for

00:33:02.599 --> 00:33:05.869
sure visually. It made sense. It would make sense

00:33:05.869 --> 00:33:07.869
that I would be his granddaughter. But it was

00:33:07.869 --> 00:33:09.750
always, it was the same response from him. He

00:33:09.750 --> 00:33:12.369
would always look at me and say, do you want

00:33:12.369 --> 00:33:14.890
to tell them or should I? And it was always like,

00:33:15.009 --> 00:33:16.549
it would be a joke. So he would give you that

00:33:16.549 --> 00:33:19.569
joke. Oh, yeah. It was just hilarious between

00:33:19.569 --> 00:33:24.130
us. But not only that, he didn't try to say face.

00:33:24.269 --> 00:33:25.849
No, not at all. Or whatever you want to say.

00:33:25.849 --> 00:33:29.089
It was jokey between us. But he also gave you

00:33:29.089 --> 00:33:31.210
the option, like, he would let you make the joke.

00:33:31.210 --> 00:33:34.059
Yeah. I guess is my point. Yeah, totally. Totally.

00:33:34.059 --> 00:33:38.240
Yep. So this is a question that I ask a lot of.

00:33:38.759 --> 00:33:41.019
And it seems like maybe you don't want to talk

00:33:41.019 --> 00:33:43.099
about your mom and that's fine. No, we can. That's

00:33:43.099 --> 00:33:47.839
fine. Okay. But I ask the comedians and other

00:33:47.839 --> 00:33:50.980
people that have a strong affinity for comedy

00:33:50.980 --> 00:33:53.400
this. Yeah. Similarly, what's the first time

00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:56.440
you remember really loving a joke? And do you

00:33:56.440 --> 00:34:00.839
remember what joke it was? Gosh. Because it sounds

00:34:00.839 --> 00:34:02.839
like even though your parents were loving, you

00:34:02.839 --> 00:34:05.339
still had things you had to struggle with growing

00:34:05.339 --> 00:34:09.599
up, whether it be a sister that you felt maybe

00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:12.860
a little bit like you had to live up to or just

00:34:12.860 --> 00:34:17.699
the fact that you had just, even if it was the

00:34:17.699 --> 00:34:20.400
best case scenario, it sounds like it probably

00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:24.500
was, it was still uncommon, different. It created

00:34:24.500 --> 00:34:28.320
these stigmas maybe at times that you had to

00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:31.329
households. I say this as somebody whose parents

00:34:31.329 --> 00:34:33.590
got divorced when I was five. Yeah. I'm not trying

00:34:33.590 --> 00:34:37.570
to like. No, I totally. That's exactly it. But

00:34:37.570 --> 00:34:41.829
so even in my situation wasn't necessarily ideal.

00:34:42.010 --> 00:34:45.030
But I would almost say that the stigma or the

00:34:45.030 --> 00:34:48.690
especially on a neurodivergent person to homes

00:34:48.690 --> 00:34:52.309
and all that, that can be harder. Definitely.

00:34:52.329 --> 00:34:54.989
For us, I think. Yep. For me, I think it was

00:34:54.989 --> 00:34:59.150
the fact that I have always related more to my

00:34:59.150 --> 00:35:01.610
father. But you spent, it sounds like. But I

00:35:01.610 --> 00:35:04.690
spent more time with my mother, who I love. Right.

00:35:04.690 --> 00:35:07.769
It's just. You know how I knew that? You told

00:35:07.769 --> 00:35:11.269
me you visited your father. Yeah. Yeah. That's

00:35:11.269 --> 00:35:15.610
how I knew. Yeah. It was during the week. It

00:35:15.610 --> 00:35:18.699
was time with my mother. It was the week spent

00:35:18.699 --> 00:35:22.719
there. And then it was every weekend was usually

00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:26.420
in some way. Had he pretty much retired from

00:35:26.420 --> 00:35:28.219
playing music professionally at that point? He

00:35:28.219 --> 00:35:34.679
was done with life. Yes. He, yeah. So you didn't

00:35:34.679 --> 00:35:36.860
grow up like going to a bunch of gigs that he

00:35:36.860 --> 00:35:40.920
played and stuff like that? I wish. I wish. What's

00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:43.420
the first concert you remember going to? The

00:35:43.420 --> 00:35:45.900
first one ever? That you remember? That I went

00:35:45.900 --> 00:35:50.170
to? Gosh, the Beach Boys. It's the Beach Boys.

00:35:50.590 --> 00:35:54.789
The Beach Boys. Yes, yes, it was very hardcore.

00:35:54.789 --> 00:35:57.630
Without Brian Wilson, though? I don't even remember.

00:35:57.769 --> 00:36:01.190
Okay, so I was... I'm remembering this a little

00:36:01.190 --> 00:36:05.929
bit now. Yes, I was... This is good. We're gonna

00:36:05.929 --> 00:36:09.090
stay on this thread. Oh, the Beach Boys, gosh.

00:36:10.250 --> 00:36:17.809
I was like seven or so. And my mother and stepfather

00:36:17.809 --> 00:36:20.489
were both priests, right? So I grew up in a really

00:36:20.489 --> 00:36:25.150
sweet, like, super wholesome. You still seem

00:36:25.150 --> 00:36:28.769
wholesome. Shut up. Fuck you. I said seen. I

00:36:28.769 --> 00:36:33.429
said seen. Yeah, so, yes, you're right. No, no,

00:36:33.429 --> 00:36:38.110
it's true. That's my core. Yes, that is. So,

00:36:38.110 --> 00:36:43.440
yeah, it was. Yeah, a very, from their perspective,

00:36:43.639 --> 00:36:45.500
from my mother and stepfather, he was in my life

00:36:45.500 --> 00:36:47.260
since I was like eight. It was just a really

00:36:47.260 --> 00:36:50.159
sweet. Of course, my first show was the Beach

00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:53.440
Boys. What do you remember? First of all, I will

00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:55.920
say you could have gone to other shows before

00:36:55.920 --> 00:36:58.840
that that you don't remember, which is why I'm

00:36:58.840 --> 00:37:02.159
asking you this in the way that I'm asking you.

00:37:02.500 --> 00:37:05.119
What do you think it was about that show that

00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:07.179
makes you remember it? What do you remember about

00:37:07.179 --> 00:37:10.239
that show? There's not a lot of memories I have

00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:12.579
from seven years old. A few of them are concerts,

00:37:12.679 --> 00:37:15.619
though. I felt older. I went with my sister,

00:37:15.780 --> 00:37:19.159
who is four years older than I. So she was 11.

00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:24.019
Yeah, I was, yes. And no adults? No. My parents

00:37:24.019 --> 00:37:25.980
were there. They, like, stand in the back? Yeah,

00:37:26.019 --> 00:37:30.400
you know. They tried to pretend. Obviously, you

00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:33.280
know exactly what happened. That's because that

00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:36.059
was, like, my mom. That's exactly it. My mom

00:37:36.059 --> 00:37:39.579
took me to so many concerts. Yeah. To be fair,

00:37:39.719 --> 00:37:42.619
I don't think I've ever dragged my mom to a concert

00:37:42.619 --> 00:37:45.440
that she didn't enjoy. Oh, that's great. That's

00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:48.000
great. But I have had to drag her to several.

00:37:48.219 --> 00:37:51.440
Yeah, yeah. I understand. I understand. I think,

00:37:51.440 --> 00:37:55.699
like, my mom is usually, like, if anything I've

00:37:55.699 --> 00:37:57.500
ever been able to give back to her, it's that

00:37:57.500 --> 00:38:00.800
I've dragged her to some good shows. Good shows

00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:04.150
are worth it. It's worth it. I always go to the

00:38:04.150 --> 00:38:08.889
rock show. Always. Always. Your parents are hiding

00:38:08.889 --> 00:38:11.429
in the back of the beach, boys. Your sister's

00:38:11.429 --> 00:38:13.809
trying to pretend like she's cooler than you.

00:38:14.489 --> 00:38:17.849
You see the whole scene. No, I do. I'm not looking

00:38:17.849 --> 00:38:20.610
at you because I'm looking into the lights. You

00:38:20.610 --> 00:38:22.190
see the whole thing. That's exactly what happened.

00:38:22.510 --> 00:38:23.710
So your parents are hiding in the back. Yep.

00:38:23.980 --> 00:38:26.320
Your sister is, I got my kid sister with me.

00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:29.019
And she's trying to seem cool. And she has people

00:38:29.019 --> 00:38:33.360
there. Okay, yeah. That are around her age. Or

00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:37.099
older. Is there anybody? No! From their kid sister

00:38:37.099 --> 00:38:40.980
there? No. It was, maybe, was it church affiliated?

00:38:41.380 --> 00:38:45.280
The people who went were. In the early 90s, the

00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:48.000
Beach Boys, maybe. I'm just trying to remember.

00:38:48.559 --> 00:38:51.119
Churches were getting pretty desperate. Come

00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:54.940
on, seriously. I just remember a lot of the people

00:38:54.940 --> 00:38:58.539
that I associate with church at that time were

00:38:58.539 --> 00:39:01.219
at that church. I don't know. Maybe it was like

00:39:01.219 --> 00:39:02.559
a field trip. The first time I ever listened

00:39:02.559 --> 00:39:05.280
to Eminem was at a church camp. Shut your mouth.

00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:10.920
Yes. You went to church camp too? My church camp

00:39:10.920 --> 00:39:15.880
is far too traumatic. But I'll share a couple

00:39:15.880 --> 00:39:18.219
of highlights. I heard Eminem for the first time.

00:39:18.340 --> 00:39:20.679
Wow. And when this is over, I'll tell you the

00:39:20.679 --> 00:39:23.880
downside of it all. I went to church camp, and

00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:26.860
I'll tell the funny part. Here's the funny part.

00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:29.079
I went to church camp, and it was a horribly

00:39:29.079 --> 00:39:31.260
traumatic experience for me. I'm so sorry. And

00:39:31.260 --> 00:39:34.119
not the way that anyone can imagine. Perfect,

00:39:34.300 --> 00:39:36.380
yep. It had nothing to do with the camp was fine.

00:39:36.659 --> 00:39:39.380
The people there were great, at least as much

00:39:39.380 --> 00:39:41.420
as they could be with the situation I was in

00:39:41.420 --> 00:39:45.519
at the time. My mom was a single mom, and I had

00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:48.920
not talked to my dad in a while, who needed a

00:39:48.920 --> 00:39:53.550
fucking week. And we made a deal. This was a

00:39:53.550 --> 00:39:56.349
deal with the devil. Because it was the summer

00:39:56.349 --> 00:40:03.849
of 1999. Oh, the summer of 1999. And I had been

00:40:03.849 --> 00:40:06.030
secretly watching South Park in my bedroom for

00:40:06.030 --> 00:40:09.010
two years at that point. Do you know that was,

00:40:09.010 --> 00:40:14.210
oh, that was banned in my house. Oh, oh, oh,

00:40:15.510 --> 00:40:20.679
oh, South Park was the. Just the devil. I still

00:40:20.679 --> 00:40:23.099
remember my mom breaking my Alanis Morissette

00:40:23.099 --> 00:40:26.960
CD because she said, once you go down on you.

00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:29.199
Okay, I need to hear this story. Okay, I think

00:40:29.199 --> 00:40:31.920
we've uncovered something. So your dad's turning

00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:34.659
you on to music. Your mom's breaking your CDs.

00:40:34.659 --> 00:40:37.699
I'm breaking my freaking shit, yeah. Can we talk

00:40:37.699 --> 00:40:39.199
a little bit more about this and then I'll go

00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:41.840
back to the deal with the devil? Obviously, yes,

00:40:41.880 --> 00:40:45.929
totally. It doesn't sound like your mom hated

00:40:45.929 --> 00:40:52.230
music. No. She's very still. She's a priest.

00:40:52.530 --> 00:40:53.889
She's very religious. So your mom's still with

00:40:53.889 --> 00:40:57.869
us. Yep, she's still with us. She is just. Hasn't

00:40:57.869 --> 00:41:02.030
retired. What denomination? Episcopalian. Episcopalian.

00:41:02.349 --> 00:41:07.610
Yeah, I think that the way that. God, my dad

00:41:07.610 --> 00:41:10.309
said this to her. I feel like my father right

00:41:10.309 --> 00:41:14.300
now. My father said to her. The way you feel

00:41:14.300 --> 00:41:18.500
about God is the way I feel about music. And

00:41:18.500 --> 00:41:22.920
I feel the same way. All right, so I've been

00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:24.780
waiting for the opportune moment to share this

00:41:24.780 --> 00:41:27.559
quote with you. I'm so excited. It's a quote

00:41:27.559 --> 00:41:31.360
from Frank Zappa. Yeah? Frank Zappa is probably

00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:34.420
my favorite composer of all time. But he was

00:41:34.420 --> 00:41:36.860
also somebody, and I think this actually really

00:41:36.860 --> 00:41:39.739
fits, he's somebody who had an instrumental album

00:41:39.739 --> 00:41:43.730
with a parental advisory sticker. He was one

00:41:43.730 --> 00:41:46.030
of the only musicians, if not the only musician,

00:41:46.110 --> 00:41:51.030
to testify before Congress when Tipper Gore,

00:41:51.349 --> 00:41:55.590
by the way, was trying to put stickers on albums.

00:41:55.789 --> 00:41:58.130
Yeah. Which, I don't know about you, but that

00:41:58.130 --> 00:42:00.710
was a selling point by the time we were... Total

00:42:00.710 --> 00:42:03.059
us. A thousand percent. It was like, if it had

00:42:03.059 --> 00:42:04.659
one of those stickers. If it had it, you wanted

00:42:04.659 --> 00:42:07.380
it? That's right. It tricked so many kids into

00:42:07.380 --> 00:42:10.900
listening to Limp Bizkit. Oh, my God. We were

00:42:10.900 --> 00:42:13.719
all tricked. We all drank the Kool -Aid for Limp

00:42:13.719 --> 00:42:16.960
Bizkit. All of us. But it was that sticker. And

00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:20.239
honestly, the art on the cover was pretty fucking

00:42:20.239 --> 00:42:23.500
cool. Listen, we all got fooled. Every one of

00:42:23.500 --> 00:42:25.380
us. And I've talked about art on album covers

00:42:25.380 --> 00:42:29.659
repeatedly. So Frank Zappa said, information

00:42:29.659 --> 00:42:34.119
is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom

00:42:34.119 --> 00:42:38.340
is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is

00:42:38.340 --> 00:42:43.079
not love. Love is not music. Music is the best.

00:42:43.719 --> 00:42:46.619
Sounds like it could have been my father. That's

00:42:46.619 --> 00:42:50.199
exactly. And it's still my feeling today. Is

00:42:50.199 --> 00:42:53.960
it how you feel? Yes. though I would put a little

00:42:53.960 --> 00:42:56.559
bit of a difference in there. I think I have,

00:42:56.659 --> 00:42:59.300
but I think he felt the same way. He just didn't

00:42:59.300 --> 00:43:02.119
have the words for it, and I think I do. It is

00:43:02.119 --> 00:43:08.659
the combination of music is all of that. Music

00:43:08.659 --> 00:43:15.519
is everything, including divine. There are ways

00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:18.099
that music comes into your life in divine ways,

00:43:18.199 --> 00:43:20.920
or people come into your life in divine ways,

00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:24.340
and you're like, This just happened. And it's

00:43:24.340 --> 00:43:28.900
related to music. Or a song. Or a band. Or a

00:43:28.900 --> 00:43:31.500
person who plays a song at the right. For me,

00:43:31.519 --> 00:43:34.800
it's all like this. And I think for my mother,

00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:38.599
it's like Jesus. Jesus with blood. And for my

00:43:38.599 --> 00:43:43.380
dad, it was music. In 2005, Ben Harper put out

00:43:43.380 --> 00:43:45.719
an album with the Blind Boys of Alabama. Ah.

00:43:46.260 --> 00:43:48.300
And it was called There Will Be a Light. It's

00:43:48.300 --> 00:43:51.059
a great record. But there's this interview that

00:43:51.059 --> 00:43:54.480
they went on with Johnny fucking Jimmy Fallon.

00:43:54.539 --> 00:43:56.460
Yeah. I think it was. I think it was Jimmy Fallon.

00:43:56.760 --> 00:43:59.239
I could be wrong. It doesn't matter. Just look

00:43:59.239 --> 00:44:02.920
up talk show if you want to see this clip. Ben

00:44:02.920 --> 00:44:06.119
Harper is like sitting there. Spirituality. It's

00:44:06.119 --> 00:44:08.119
all about. And this is a gospel record they put

00:44:08.119 --> 00:44:10.480
out together. Yeah. This is all about spirituality

00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:12.820
to me. And this is the guy that wrote Burn One

00:44:12.820 --> 00:44:16.920
Down. It's all about just getting in touch with

00:44:16.920 --> 00:44:19.159
my spirituality. Totally. And blah, blah, blah.

00:44:19.639 --> 00:44:21.119
The blonde boys of Alabama are sitting there.

00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:24.980
It's about Jesus. It's about Jesus. And I think,

00:44:24.980 --> 00:44:28.599
to be honest, to each his damn own. If you zoom

00:44:28.599 --> 00:44:31.480
out and you look at the different way and the

00:44:31.480 --> 00:44:33.059
things people have been through and all of their,

00:44:33.119 --> 00:44:37.159
whatever. To each his. If you find comfort and

00:44:37.159 --> 00:44:43.079
total, like, peace in using Jesus, great. Awesome.

00:44:43.219 --> 00:44:46.639
If you find it in being really strictly Islamic,

00:44:47.059 --> 00:44:50.889
great. Do it. How strict are you? You know what

00:44:50.889 --> 00:44:52.929
I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? Whatever.

00:44:53.150 --> 00:44:56.269
So Jesus is awesome, but Christianity is fucked

00:44:56.269 --> 00:44:58.809
up. I'm just going to say that. Fuck yeah. Yes.

00:44:59.750 --> 00:45:04.769
Yes. I am such a... God, please save me from

00:45:04.769 --> 00:45:09.269
your followers. Yeah. Yeah. That's been a big

00:45:09.269 --> 00:45:12.010
part of me, I think, too, in the past, like,

00:45:12.010 --> 00:45:13.829
four or so years, ever since I got divorced,

00:45:13.949 --> 00:45:17.429
the grappling of how my foundations were set.

00:45:18.250 --> 00:45:22.630
For me. It's not that I had a crazy traumatic

00:45:22.630 --> 00:45:26.110
experience in childhood. It's just that everything

00:45:26.110 --> 00:45:30.889
was so set in a box. And then coming out of that

00:45:30.889 --> 00:45:34.090
box and going, wow. If you were comfortable in

00:45:34.090 --> 00:45:38.670
that box, it almost sounds like that as a neurodivergent

00:45:38.670 --> 00:45:40.829
person that wasn't diagnosed until late in life.

00:45:40.989 --> 00:45:43.730
Yeah. I feel like I needed more of those boxes.

00:45:43.829 --> 00:45:46.329
You know what I mean? And so that box was a comfortable

00:45:46.329 --> 00:45:48.690
box. And maybe I was in boxes, but those boxes

00:45:48.690 --> 00:45:50.630
weren't comfortable for me. You know what I mean?

00:45:50.789 --> 00:45:54.610
Yes, I do. I found my comfortable box. Oh, man.

00:45:54.750 --> 00:45:58.469
I was at choir rehearsals and theater rehearsals.

00:45:58.510 --> 00:46:01.030
It was either choir rehearsal or play practice

00:46:01.030 --> 00:46:05.869
every night. It was like it was my job. I don't

00:46:05.869 --> 00:46:08.610
know why I never got into theater. Oh, my God.

00:46:09.309 --> 00:46:13.489
Saved me. It saved me. Made friends, made people

00:46:13.489 --> 00:46:15.550
who had thoughts like me. I think I was never

00:46:15.550 --> 00:46:17.489
at a school. Like, I didn't go to high school.

00:46:17.630 --> 00:46:19.829
Yeah. So that's a whole other thing. Yeah. But

00:46:19.829 --> 00:46:21.670
my middle school didn't have a theater program.

00:46:21.670 --> 00:46:23.989
Didn't have, right. That's another thing. And

00:46:23.989 --> 00:46:26.369
I was supposed to be in a production of, like,

00:46:26.409 --> 00:46:30.530
a summer production of South Pacific. Oh. And

00:46:30.530 --> 00:46:34.829
I, like, checked out a life that summer. Fine.

00:46:34.949 --> 00:46:36.880
You know what I mean? Some summers are like that.

00:46:36.960 --> 00:46:38.420
That's a whole other story. Some summers are

00:46:38.420 --> 00:46:42.860
like that. So I want to bring something back

00:46:42.860 --> 00:46:45.940
for a second. And maybe it's too late to capture

00:46:45.940 --> 00:46:49.539
this, but the point I wanted to make after bringing

00:46:49.539 --> 00:46:52.179
up the Ben Harper Blind Boys of Alabama thing

00:46:52.179 --> 00:46:56.039
is that album, even though they had very different

00:46:56.039 --> 00:46:59.639
perspectives, they got together and created something

00:46:59.639 --> 00:47:03.219
pretty fucking amazing. And you're pretty fucking

00:47:03.219 --> 00:47:06.000
amazing, Therese. Thank you. That's so sweet.

00:47:06.119 --> 00:47:09.280
Thank you. It sounds like in some ways you got

00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:13.500
not the best of both worlds all the time. It

00:47:13.500 --> 00:47:15.400
sounds like maybe your dad was a little bit,

00:47:15.400 --> 00:47:18.480
I don't want to say uninterested, but uninitiated

00:47:18.480 --> 00:47:20.719
in a lot of ways. He was at a point in life where

00:47:20.719 --> 00:47:22.760
he was like, I mean, probably just didn't have

00:47:22.760 --> 00:47:24.940
the fucking energy to do a lot of things. Yeah.

00:47:25.119 --> 00:47:29.460
And your mom had so much energy. That she was

00:47:29.460 --> 00:47:31.940
putting it maybe into negative places sometimes,

00:47:32.099 --> 00:47:34.619
but also positive places a lot of the time too.

00:47:34.820 --> 00:47:37.420
What's like the starkest difference you remember

00:47:37.420 --> 00:47:39.380
between being at your mom's house or being at

00:47:39.380 --> 00:47:42.599
your dad's house as a kid? That's laughable.

00:47:43.019 --> 00:47:47.420
The biggest, unfortunately, is the freedom that

00:47:47.420 --> 00:47:53.119
I felt. I felt a lot of freedom. Yeah, I felt

00:47:53.119 --> 00:47:57.239
a lot of... I felt like I could be completely

00:47:57.239 --> 00:48:01.460
myself with my father. And I felt a lot of restrictions

00:48:01.460 --> 00:48:07.860
with my mother. Now, granted, I think as a mom,

00:48:08.019 --> 00:48:10.639
when I look back at it, I think that she had

00:48:10.639 --> 00:48:14.860
to play a little more of the traditional parental

00:48:14.860 --> 00:48:18.250
role. I think he... played into the fact that

00:48:18.250 --> 00:48:22.010
he didn't really have to. Did you feel like you

00:48:22.010 --> 00:48:24.150
had more of a friendship with your dad? Yes,

00:48:24.170 --> 00:48:28.090
a thousand per... He still is my best friend.

00:48:28.849 --> 00:48:33.349
He was my best friend on the day he died. He

00:48:33.349 --> 00:48:35.730
was my best friend. Today, he is my best friend.

00:48:35.849 --> 00:48:40.510
He... Yes, it was so much more of a... But that's

00:48:40.510 --> 00:48:43.269
not apparent. I just want to point that out.

00:48:43.269 --> 00:48:47.099
Absolutely. Absolutely. There were a lot of parental

00:48:47.099 --> 00:48:51.420
things that he did, but it was much more of a,

00:48:51.599 --> 00:48:55.039
he would always call me his little me. Oh, you're

00:48:55.039 --> 00:48:57.599
like a little me. You're like a little me. And

00:48:57.599 --> 00:49:00.119
so it was always, that was the precedent. That

00:49:00.119 --> 00:49:03.000
was the precedent. Do you ever think that maybe

00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:06.579
sometimes you resent your mother a little bit

00:49:06.579 --> 00:49:09.059
more than your father because she had to set

00:49:09.059 --> 00:49:10.900
some of the boundaries and the restrictions for

00:49:10.900 --> 00:49:14.780
you as a parent? I used to. Yes. Yes, I used

00:49:14.780 --> 00:49:18.059
to not realize, recognize that. I used to not.

00:49:18.619 --> 00:49:23.820
But now, no, not just because I think as a parent,

00:49:23.860 --> 00:49:26.199
you do what you can do. And you said if you're

00:49:26.199 --> 00:49:30.599
in that situation, I think she filled in a lot

00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:34.119
of good gaps. Yeah, I think she did a good job.

00:49:35.210 --> 00:49:37.829
filling in what she needed to. And we all kind

00:49:37.829 --> 00:49:40.070
of need an authority to rebel against at a certain

00:49:40.070 --> 00:49:42.789
point. Yes, that's right. That's exact. And I

00:49:42.789 --> 00:49:47.610
think he enjoyed not being in that role. Anyone

00:49:47.610 --> 00:49:50.969
would. Right. And she welcomed being in that.

00:49:51.010 --> 00:49:55.150
She, okay, here I am. I'm mom. And this is the

00:49:55.150 --> 00:49:57.969
last psychological question about your childhood.

00:49:59.389 --> 00:50:04.010
But do you think that was something that, how

00:50:04.010 --> 00:50:09.760
do I put it? Do you think that your dad intentionally

00:50:09.760 --> 00:50:13.639
let your mother, once she stepped up and set

00:50:13.639 --> 00:50:16.659
those boundaries? I think a little bit. I think

00:50:16.659 --> 00:50:22.880
he settled into the comfort of it, especially

00:50:22.880 --> 00:50:27.099
in his older age. As he got into his 70s. How

00:50:27.099 --> 00:50:28.619
old were you when he passed away? See, that's

00:50:28.619 --> 00:50:32.579
the thing. I was 19. He was 78. Yeah. Yeah, 61.

00:50:32.920 --> 00:50:37.760
He was in his 60s and 70s when I knew him. Yeah,

00:50:38.619 --> 00:50:43.219
I do. I think. And I don't think it came from

00:50:43.219 --> 00:50:47.000
a place of I don't want to. Like, fuck you. No,

00:50:47.000 --> 00:50:49.739
it's like it's being taken care of. Yes. No,

00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:52.340
I get that. I think it was. I think my mother

00:50:52.340 --> 00:50:57.139
was the mother to all three of us. You're both

00:50:57.139 --> 00:51:01.639
you, you're him. Yeah. Love him to death. Forever

00:51:01.639 --> 00:51:05.840
and ever. But I think she played a big, I am

00:51:05.840 --> 00:51:09.659
the real adult in this situation. Okay, so let's

00:51:09.659 --> 00:51:14.639
go into what makes a person artistic in the way.

00:51:14.679 --> 00:51:16.659
Do you think that your mother is like an artist

00:51:16.659 --> 00:51:20.179
in the way that your father was? No. No. Not

00:51:20.179 --> 00:51:24.199
at all. No. Do you think an artist needs someone

00:51:24.199 --> 00:51:27.920
to rein them in sometimes? Sometimes, yeah. Especially

00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:31.260
someone who. It's a spectrum, right? That's it.

00:51:31.500 --> 00:51:35.760
It's a spectrum. Let's put Dave Grohl out there,

00:51:35.820 --> 00:51:38.300
who's a really good businessman, really good

00:51:38.300 --> 00:51:42.500
business manager, but also an incredible songwriter

00:51:42.500 --> 00:51:45.320
and musician. And maybe he wasn't always that

00:51:45.320 --> 00:51:47.500
way, but he figured it out. And at a certain

00:51:47.500 --> 00:51:50.239
point, he was able to take care of all of it.

00:51:50.579 --> 00:51:53.239
Yeah. Even if it was just putting the right people

00:51:53.239 --> 00:51:55.039
in the right place with the money he had. Yep.

00:51:55.400 --> 00:52:00.750
And that's a privilege. there's people like Kurt

00:52:00.750 --> 00:52:04.329
Cobain. Yeah. Just to keep it in the same fucking

00:52:04.329 --> 00:52:08.630
realm for a second. Who was completely, may have

00:52:08.630 --> 00:52:11.510
written some of the greatest songs of a generation

00:52:11.510 --> 00:52:14.289
or whatever. But the point I'm making is that

00:52:14.289 --> 00:52:17.349
was your dad that kind of, like maybe not like

00:52:17.349 --> 00:52:20.130
a heroin addict, but was your dad that kind of

00:52:20.130 --> 00:52:23.510
artist that like needed someone? Or do you think

00:52:23.510 --> 00:52:25.469
until your mom came along, he had it pretty good

00:52:25.469 --> 00:52:27.940
and then like your mom just made? Shoot a little

00:52:27.940 --> 00:52:31.440
bit different. Especially for him, the way that

00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:35.239
he, the way that he grew up and everybody has

00:52:35.239 --> 00:52:38.659
their like particular cocktail of trauma from

00:52:38.659 --> 00:52:42.119
their own. When we created ourselves. Sure. Absolutely.

00:52:42.400 --> 00:52:44.780
Absolutely. It's like an autoimmune disorder.

00:52:45.480 --> 00:52:49.960
Totally. So true. I think with his particular

00:52:49.960 --> 00:52:56.079
like cocktail of trauma and age. And the fact

00:52:56.079 --> 00:53:01.199
that he is a musician through and through. He

00:53:01.199 --> 00:53:04.760
lived, breathed, everything was music. He would

00:53:04.760 --> 00:53:07.460
listen to music or be writing music or be playing

00:53:07.460 --> 00:53:09.820
the clarinet. Music is the best. That's it. It

00:53:09.820 --> 00:53:13.639
was always music. It was how he connected with

00:53:13.639 --> 00:53:15.739
divinity. With the world and divinity. Everything.

00:53:16.380 --> 00:53:19.539
He would say to my mother, the exact way you

00:53:19.539 --> 00:53:22.400
feel about gorgeous, how I feel about... And

00:53:22.400 --> 00:53:24.900
I can remember my mom relaying that story. I

00:53:24.900 --> 00:53:27.980
can remember him. Do you think your mom ever

00:53:27.980 --> 00:53:31.159
got it? Not in the sense that she understood

00:53:31.159 --> 00:53:33.699
what he was saying. But do you ever think she

00:53:33.699 --> 00:53:36.900
ever even got a glimpse of that feeling? Because

00:53:36.900 --> 00:53:40.920
I'll tell you this. The only way that I've ever

00:53:40.920 --> 00:53:43.000
been able to connect with divinity is through

00:53:43.000 --> 00:53:47.260
music. The only way. And I'm not a religious

00:53:47.260 --> 00:53:50.920
person. I understand. I really understand. And

00:53:50.920 --> 00:53:53.840
I wouldn't even say that it's religious music

00:53:53.840 --> 00:53:56.179
that makes me feel like I'm connecting with the

00:53:56.179 --> 00:54:00.739
divine. I think for her, it is that case. I'm

00:54:00.739 --> 00:54:05.219
also not a musician. But I think that's important.

00:54:05.440 --> 00:54:08.400
Sure. I'm saying this as just somebody who loves

00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:13.039
music. For her, I think everything, again, everybody's

00:54:13.039 --> 00:54:17.500
little particular cocktail of trauma, her path

00:54:17.500 --> 00:54:23.019
for... understanding and like feeling the divine

00:54:23.019 --> 00:54:25.519
and feeling light and being able to meditate

00:54:25.519 --> 00:54:28.139
and all that kind of her path was Christianity

00:54:28.139 --> 00:54:34.139
was Catholicism and repenting and and but also

00:54:34.139 --> 00:54:36.840
the music that I can remember driving in the

00:54:36.840 --> 00:54:38.760
car and it was always what's his name John Michael

00:54:38.760 --> 00:54:43.079
Talbot is a Christian okay yeah that was that

00:54:43.079 --> 00:54:46.219
back in the day Yeah. Yeah. That was my soundtrack

00:54:46.219 --> 00:54:48.940
in my mother's car for childhood. It was just

00:54:48.940 --> 00:54:51.360
John Michael, some John Denver, but like John

00:54:51.360 --> 00:54:55.139
Michael Talbot. Oh my God. Just. So when you

00:54:55.139 --> 00:54:57.079
went to see the Beach Boys and I'm going to start

00:54:57.079 --> 00:54:59.099
pushing things forward again, because we've spent

00:54:59.099 --> 00:55:01.539
a lot of time on a really interesting period,

00:55:01.639 --> 00:55:04.920
but I do want to like bring us up to speed too.

00:55:05.579 --> 00:55:12.340
What was like, that was edgy. I felt edgy. I'll

00:55:12.340 --> 00:55:14.019
tell you that. Well, because you felt old. I

00:55:14.019 --> 00:55:16.760
felt edgy. You were the only one there. I was

00:55:16.760 --> 00:55:19.000
the only one there in my age group. Yeah. And

00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:21.440
I was, I can remember being. Was your sister

00:55:21.440 --> 00:55:24.360
inclusive or did she try and keep you like. She

00:55:24.360 --> 00:55:27.980
was pretty inclusive. But also. Yeah, totally.

00:55:28.199 --> 00:55:30.280
But also because my mother and stepfather were

00:55:30.280 --> 00:55:35.059
there. Yeah. Yeah. I can. Yeah. That was like

00:55:35.059 --> 00:55:38.500
the big kid concert. That was like me feeling

00:55:38.500 --> 00:55:42.010
like a big kid. Finally. Do you remember anything

00:55:42.010 --> 00:55:49.070
about it? For me, I think it was, I think it

00:55:49.070 --> 00:55:51.150
was the whole experience overall because I had

00:55:51.150 --> 00:55:56.110
never been in that setting before, ever. I had

00:55:56.110 --> 00:55:58.909
never been in a crowd of people that were all

00:55:58.909 --> 00:56:02.820
really excited. I was, yes, but. I was outdoors,

00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:04.679
so there must have been two parts. Like maybe

00:56:04.679 --> 00:56:06.719
in the amphitheater? Yeah. Or a stadium or something?

00:56:06.719 --> 00:56:09.119
And I remember being outdoors for sure. I remember

00:56:09.119 --> 00:56:11.539
it was SPAC, Saratoga Performing Arts Center.

00:56:11.880 --> 00:56:15.619
Okay. Up in upstate New York. Oh, God. Yeah,

00:56:15.840 --> 00:56:18.019
the big band, the Beach Boys. And I thought it

00:56:18.019 --> 00:56:22.199
was so badass too. It felt so badass. And it

00:56:22.199 --> 00:56:24.460
was the Beach Boys. Do you think like, all right,

00:56:24.460 --> 00:56:26.599
so I'm going to go back to a thread that I was

00:56:26.599 --> 00:56:31.039
on earlier. When, so sometimes when you perform.

00:56:31.559 --> 00:56:33.780
It's more like you're putting on a show. Yeah.

00:56:33.820 --> 00:56:35.840
And you're doing almost like you're putting on

00:56:35.840 --> 00:56:37.659
your own musical and you're in that mindset,

00:56:37.800 --> 00:56:40.679
right? Yeah, for sure. And then there's other

00:56:40.679 --> 00:56:43.019
times where you're putting on a show and you're

00:56:43.019 --> 00:56:45.099
just playing your songs like a show. It's me,

00:56:45.179 --> 00:56:47.840
yeah. And it's you. And you talked about the

00:56:47.840 --> 00:56:49.679
difference already between being an audience

00:56:49.679 --> 00:56:52.059
member in a musical and being on stage in a musical.

00:56:52.500 --> 00:56:55.380
What was the difference for you? I know that

00:56:55.380 --> 00:56:59.559
you didn't start performing as yourself until

00:56:59.559 --> 00:57:02.880
pretty recently. Relatively speaking, at least.

00:57:02.900 --> 00:57:05.159
Absolutely. What do you think is the difference

00:57:05.159 --> 00:57:07.840
for you between being an audience member at a

00:57:07.840 --> 00:57:11.699
concert and being the person that performs the

00:57:11.699 --> 00:57:15.679
concert? And not as a persona, but as you. I

00:57:15.679 --> 00:57:20.019
think as me performing, it's such a different

00:57:20.019 --> 00:57:24.420
experience for me. I have to connect with my

00:57:24.420 --> 00:57:26.940
audience. I have to speak a little bit. I have

00:57:26.940 --> 00:57:30.780
to sing some things that... How much of that

00:57:30.780 --> 00:57:33.639
is prepared, though, the speaking? None of it.

00:57:33.699 --> 00:57:36.079
Totally improvised. Yeah, none of it. Unless

00:57:36.079 --> 00:57:38.639
I'm reading the name of the title of the song.

00:57:38.780 --> 00:57:41.179
But no, none of it's free. You don't have prepared

00:57:41.179 --> 00:57:46.380
stories about songs? No, not really, no. No.

00:57:46.719 --> 00:57:49.460
Things just pop up, and I like it that way. I

00:57:49.460 --> 00:57:51.079
like the fact that it's... Have you ever done

00:57:51.079 --> 00:57:53.800
improv? Like, I know you've done a lot of theater.

00:57:54.000 --> 00:57:59.199
A little, but, like, in practice in a theater

00:57:59.199 --> 00:58:01.039
rehearsal. You know what I mean? Right. You've

00:58:01.039 --> 00:58:03.099
never. Trying to do it. You've never been, like,

00:58:03.099 --> 00:58:05.420
part of an improv crew. No. Oh, my gosh. No.

00:58:05.639 --> 00:58:09.380
So what do you think is, like, the key difference

00:58:09.380 --> 00:58:11.860
for you in getting into the mindset for a role

00:58:11.860 --> 00:58:14.059
and getting into a mindset for a show of your

00:58:14.059 --> 00:58:17.280
own music and being. Oh, my gosh. So different.

00:58:17.579 --> 00:58:21.570
Is it different? And for, yeah, for a role, it

00:58:21.570 --> 00:58:26.630
is, it has very, especially in the beginning,

00:58:26.670 --> 00:58:31.150
it has very little to do with me. It's the character

00:58:31.150 --> 00:58:33.429
and it's, I have to read up on them and who,

00:58:33.530 --> 00:58:35.650
what they like and what they do and why they're

00:58:35.650 --> 00:58:37.070
singing this song and what's their relationship

00:58:37.070 --> 00:58:39.570
with them and blah, blah. Then it becomes me.

00:58:39.730 --> 00:58:41.829
Then I'm like, I feel like I'm the character.

00:58:41.949 --> 00:58:46.010
But for when it's my show and it's either my

00:58:46.010 --> 00:58:52.059
songs or. my songs and covers on a theme, something,

00:58:52.360 --> 00:58:59.300
then that is me. That's me expressing all of

00:58:59.300 --> 00:59:03.179
what I need to in that moment. Yeah. This is

00:59:03.179 --> 00:59:05.440
something I remember pretty well. So I'm going

00:59:05.440 --> 00:59:08.739
to set you up and let you just tell the story

00:59:08.739 --> 00:59:11.699
the best of your ability again. Set me. So you

00:59:11.699 --> 00:59:15.239
moved to Tallahassee to go to college. And you've

00:59:15.239 --> 00:59:16.920
alluded to the fact that you're now divorced.

00:59:17.019 --> 00:59:19.239
You never talked about getting married. Yeah.

00:59:19.639 --> 00:59:25.139
And from what I understand, your divorce and

00:59:25.139 --> 00:59:28.539
everything was a big catalyst for you writing

00:59:28.539 --> 00:59:31.500
your own music. Yes, big time. If you could just

00:59:31.500 --> 00:59:35.079
maybe first tell me a little bit about your experience

00:59:35.079 --> 00:59:38.619
moving to Tallahassee for school, not so much

00:59:38.619 --> 00:59:41.400
the culture stuff. We talked about that. And

00:59:41.400 --> 00:59:45.420
then just what... I don't want you to flash through

00:59:45.420 --> 00:59:50.739
20 years or 15 years in five minutes, but tell

00:59:50.739 --> 00:59:52.880
me what you think is important, and then we'll

00:59:52.880 --> 00:59:57.139
dissect that, if you will. So out of high school,

00:59:57.219 --> 01:00:01.179
I was accepted to NYU, and it was awesome. It

01:00:01.179 --> 01:00:04.119
was just so expensive, so freaking expensive.

01:00:05.099 --> 01:00:13.369
And I made the... decision to move with the rest

01:00:13.369 --> 01:00:17.130
of my family to Florida and it was it became

01:00:17.130 --> 01:00:20.090
a school decision because I knew I wanted to

01:00:20.090 --> 01:00:23.110
switch to another music school and FSU seemed

01:00:23.110 --> 01:00:27.190
pretty pretty outstanding so I went to that music

01:00:27.190 --> 01:00:31.590
school and in the school they in the jazz section

01:00:31.590 --> 01:00:34.949
they have you audition for combos and they'll

01:00:34.949 --> 01:00:38.250
take a certain number of people a group of people

01:00:38.840 --> 01:00:41.079
that they feel like would work well together

01:00:41.079 --> 01:00:47.420
in a combo. And I was chosen for a combo with

01:00:47.420 --> 01:00:51.340
this lovely, handsome human being that ended

01:00:51.340 --> 01:00:58.059
up becoming my husband and Mira's dad. And it

01:00:58.059 --> 01:01:00.599
solidified the fact that I wanted to stay in

01:01:00.599 --> 01:01:06.780
Tallahassee because... I wanted to build my life

01:01:06.780 --> 01:01:09.760
here. I had moved a little bit in New York and

01:01:09.760 --> 01:01:11.460
then I made the big move to Florida. I just didn't

01:01:11.460 --> 01:01:14.239
want to move anymore. So when I met Mira's dad,

01:01:14.639 --> 01:01:18.519
I made the decision that I was really going to

01:01:18.519 --> 01:01:24.260
build my life here. And we both decided to stay

01:01:24.260 --> 01:01:28.900
here and then got married in the Keys. And we're

01:01:28.900 --> 01:01:33.250
still really close. We're still... really good

01:01:33.250 --> 01:01:36.829
friends and work well together. But I think the

01:01:36.829 --> 01:01:40.269
big thing that kept us here was each other. We

01:01:40.269 --> 01:01:43.429
wanted to be together and create a life together

01:01:43.429 --> 01:01:47.230
in this place. Another thing, too, was I realized

01:01:47.230 --> 01:01:50.090
that there was such a need in Tallahassee for

01:01:50.090 --> 01:01:55.789
community music, music not affiliated with the

01:01:55.789 --> 01:02:00.369
university or any university here. So I think...

01:02:01.230 --> 01:02:05.530
Having him start the studio and then he does

01:02:05.530 --> 01:02:10.190
the same job that I do, it just was really conducive

01:02:10.190 --> 01:02:12.250
to us staying here. So we ended up staying in

01:02:12.250 --> 01:02:16.429
Tallahassee. And even through divorce, we both

01:02:16.429 --> 01:02:19.730
stayed here and we're still really close and

01:02:19.730 --> 01:02:24.190
navigating all of that. But when you first connected,

01:02:24.329 --> 01:02:27.510
it was like purely over music. It was completely

01:02:27.510 --> 01:02:31.599
musical. We met in a practice room after. Which

01:02:31.599 --> 01:02:33.940
goes back to what I was, like, music is your

01:02:33.940 --> 01:02:39.119
lovely. Yes, it is. It is. I can, when I couldn't

01:02:39.119 --> 01:02:42.820
find the right words myself, it was always music

01:02:42.820 --> 01:02:46.420
that did the job. Always. Yep. So you stayed

01:02:46.420 --> 01:02:52.119
here. You had a kid. I did. Out of my body. She

01:02:52.119 --> 01:02:56.079
came out of my body. That's trippy as fuck. I

01:02:56.079 --> 01:03:00.369
know. And then COVID happens. Almost immediately.

01:03:00.829 --> 01:03:03.789
Like, how old was your daughter in March of 2020?

01:03:04.369 --> 01:03:08.429
Two. Yeah. So she doesn't even remember. She

01:03:08.429 --> 01:03:11.090
remembers a tiny little mask. It's almost like

01:03:11.090 --> 01:03:13.690
people a little younger than us, they don't remember

01:03:13.690 --> 01:03:17.030
a time before 9 -11. Exactly. Yep. Exactly. Yeah,

01:03:17.090 --> 01:03:21.769
that was weird. You're in middle school. Yeah.

01:03:21.969 --> 01:03:25.949
Let me ask you. Everybody does. Where were you

01:03:25.949 --> 01:03:28.349
on 9 -11? I was in the music room. I was in the

01:03:28.349 --> 01:03:30.389
music room in upstate New York. And they made

01:03:30.389 --> 01:03:33.190
an announcement to the school. Did they turn

01:03:33.190 --> 01:03:35.050
on the television in time for you to see the

01:03:35.050 --> 01:03:41.170
second plane? No. Not at all. My God. I think

01:03:41.170 --> 01:03:43.170
a lot of schools made that mistake. Oh, my God.

01:03:43.210 --> 01:03:45.309
Seriously. I wasn't at school that day. Oh, you

01:03:45.309 --> 01:03:48.230
weren't? I wasn't. Like I said, I didn't go to

01:03:48.230 --> 01:03:51.550
high school. And I think I'm not sure if I went

01:03:51.550 --> 01:03:55.670
back after 9 -11. Yeah, that was a time. So she

01:03:55.670 --> 01:03:58.809
doesn't even remember it. So how old was she

01:03:58.809 --> 01:04:02.530
before she got to start to live life a normal

01:04:02.530 --> 01:04:06.150
human that was cognizant of being out in the

01:04:06.150 --> 01:04:08.730
world? When she went to pre -K, I will never

01:04:08.730 --> 01:04:12.250
forget this. When she went to pre -K, she went

01:04:12.250 --> 01:04:16.230
with a mask on. And it was her first experience

01:04:16.230 --> 01:04:21.599
at a school. What was she protesting? Seriously.

01:04:21.599 --> 01:04:26.079
It was the... God, it was so... What a strange

01:04:26.079 --> 01:04:28.639
time that was. And they weren't even sure that

01:04:28.639 --> 01:04:31.380
they were going to let the kids... It was so

01:04:31.380 --> 01:04:34.019
weird. It was so... My daughter was in middle

01:04:34.019 --> 01:04:37.699
school. Yeah. It was just very strange. Very

01:04:37.699 --> 01:04:41.960
strange time. Yeah. So, a lot of divorce lawyers

01:04:41.960 --> 01:04:44.619
were super busy during COVID. Uh -huh. Do you

01:04:44.619 --> 01:04:46.579
think that COVID directly... A thousand percent.

01:04:46.719 --> 01:04:50.059
Of course. But do you think it, so I think there's

01:04:50.059 --> 01:04:53.719
two, two ways mainly that I've seen it really

01:04:53.719 --> 01:04:57.559
impact relationships. And one was it like exposed

01:04:57.559 --> 01:05:02.440
that the relationship was flawed. And like once

01:05:02.440 --> 01:05:04.579
the two people were forced to spend a bunch of

01:05:04.579 --> 01:05:07.639
time together, they were like, this sucks. And

01:05:07.639 --> 01:05:09.960
then there was, and then there was just like

01:05:09.960 --> 01:05:12.539
people who like learned more about themselves.

01:05:12.579 --> 01:05:15.139
And then maybe that wasn't. entirely compatible

01:05:15.139 --> 01:05:17.519
with the person yeah was it more of the latter

01:05:17.519 --> 01:05:20.719
for you it sounds like or both maybe i do think

01:05:20.719 --> 01:05:22.260
it was both i think it's always a little bit

01:05:22.260 --> 01:05:25.059
yeah for us it was very mental health related

01:05:25.059 --> 01:05:30.500
we the both of us needed to make sure that we

01:05:30.500 --> 01:05:36.579
were happy stable human beings by ourselves and

01:05:36.579 --> 01:05:39.900
that was never going to happen together i see

01:05:39.900 --> 01:05:45.059
that now We needed to have time for us to fix

01:05:45.059 --> 01:05:51.000
ourselves. Both of us. Equally. Equally. Yeah.

01:05:51.599 --> 01:05:54.599
How much do you think songwriting had to do with

01:05:54.599 --> 01:06:01.019
healing yourself? So much. I fell a little in

01:06:01.019 --> 01:06:05.679
love in between my divorce and now. And to be

01:06:05.679 --> 01:06:08.989
honest, right now, I consider us really... reconciling

01:06:08.989 --> 01:06:12.230
currently we're we're really we are so good right

01:06:12.230 --> 01:06:14.610
now and i love it i love the place that we're

01:06:14.610 --> 01:06:18.869
at between divorce and now i fell in love and

01:06:18.869 --> 01:06:24.269
i grappling with that and the way that that all

01:06:24.269 --> 01:06:27.210
happened and then the way that it didn't happen

01:06:27.210 --> 01:06:30.530
it's different after you've been married after

01:06:30.530 --> 01:06:33.590
that that security or whatever that is yeah And

01:06:33.590 --> 01:06:37.789
so that. That's a charitable term. It's different.

01:06:38.150 --> 01:06:40.730
It's different. And it hit me different. It hit

01:06:40.730 --> 01:06:43.309
me. I was in a really vulnerable state anyway.

01:06:43.550 --> 01:06:46.170
And I probably, I really should not have been

01:06:46.170 --> 01:06:49.489
allowing myself to have my heart open. For sure.

01:06:49.690 --> 01:06:51.570
But it was. But you did. But I did. And it's

01:06:51.570 --> 01:06:54.909
what happened. And it, oh my God, it sparked

01:06:54.909 --> 01:06:58.389
so many great songs. I have some good songs because

01:06:58.389 --> 01:07:02.769
of that. That's my first songwriting was after

01:07:02.769 --> 01:07:07.610
feeling that, that love. And then that subsequent

01:07:07.610 --> 01:07:11.769
heartbreak or whatever that was, but it had to

01:07:11.769 --> 01:07:16.610
be post divorce. Are you, are you now converted?

01:07:17.809 --> 01:07:21.230
Let me tell you, like, I think that there's like

01:07:21.230 --> 01:07:25.269
comedians and songwriters that will say yes to

01:07:25.269 --> 01:07:28.550
experiences. They might not say yes to. Just

01:07:28.550 --> 01:07:30.389
because maybe I'll get 10 minutes of material

01:07:30.389 --> 01:07:32.369
out of it. Maybe I'll get a few songs out of

01:07:32.369 --> 01:07:35.530
it. There's no way I would do that. Maybe not

01:07:35.530 --> 01:07:38.610
consciously. No way. But there's no way I would,

01:07:38.610 --> 01:07:41.349
no. I don't even necessarily mean like a romantic

01:07:41.349 --> 01:07:43.449
experience. Yeah. But just like a life experience.

01:07:43.610 --> 01:07:46.170
Like maybe just like me and a sketchy group of

01:07:46.170 --> 01:07:50.829
people. Totally. That was my New York, my NYU

01:07:50.829 --> 01:07:54.489
experience. I was 18 and I was accepted to NYU.

01:07:54.650 --> 01:07:56.210
I went to their music department, their vocal

01:07:56.210 --> 01:08:00.480
department. I was an 18 -year -old. I think about

01:08:00.480 --> 01:08:02.340
this now with Mira, and I'm like, oh, my God.

01:08:02.679 --> 01:08:07.519
Oh, my God. I was an 18 -year -old, loose in

01:08:07.519 --> 01:08:11.320
New York City, living in the West Village. What

01:08:11.320 --> 01:08:14.599
business did I have living in the West Village?

01:08:14.940 --> 01:08:18.460
In the mid -2000s. Hi. Like 2005. What business

01:08:18.460 --> 01:08:22.260
did I have doing that? None. It was 2008. 2008.

01:08:22.859 --> 01:08:27.619
Yes. And it was. awesome. But one of the experiences

01:08:27.619 --> 01:08:30.619
I had, it was I waited overnight outside of a

01:08:30.619 --> 01:08:32.479
venue to get the first, I think it was first

01:08:32.479 --> 01:08:35.460
20 tickets were free or something, for a private

01:08:35.460 --> 01:08:38.920
Fiona Apple concert. And I met the coolest people

01:08:38.920 --> 01:08:44.119
ever. It was cool as hell. Some really great

01:08:44.119 --> 01:08:48.560
gothic people, some really punky gothic people.

01:08:48.960 --> 01:08:54.380
And I'm Therese the priest's kid. Oh God, I had

01:08:54.380 --> 01:08:58.079
fun. I stayed up all night. Oh, it was great.

01:08:58.260 --> 01:09:05.800
It was so much fun. Oh, it was amazing. It was

01:09:05.800 --> 01:09:10.500
absolutely incredible. I wasn't sure what I was

01:09:10.500 --> 01:09:12.960
expecting, but I waited in the line. I got a

01:09:12.960 --> 01:09:16.579
tip from a girl who lived on our floor and she

01:09:16.579 --> 01:09:20.829
was a promoter. And so she knew. who would be

01:09:20.829 --> 01:09:23.909
like the famous people in the area at the clubs

01:09:23.909 --> 01:09:26.909
at certain times. So she would tell the people

01:09:26.909 --> 01:09:30.289
on our floor. I met John Mayer outside of this

01:09:30.289 --> 01:09:34.029
one club and it was just because she knew somehow

01:09:34.029 --> 01:09:38.170
that was like her job to know. So she knew that

01:09:38.170 --> 01:09:42.850
was going to happen. And she was like, listen,

01:09:42.930 --> 01:09:46.369
if you want, go now and wait outside this club,

01:09:46.409 --> 01:09:48.750
blah, blah, blah. And if you're one of the first,

01:09:48.909 --> 01:09:51.909
I think it was 25 people, you get in for free.

01:09:52.210 --> 01:09:54.789
And I was one of the first. And it was the most

01:09:54.789 --> 01:10:00.689
amazing concert. Oh, my God. It was less than

01:10:00.689 --> 01:10:06.829
100. Oh, it was amazing. It was like a fancy

01:10:06.829 --> 01:10:10.289
little bar. Not too fancy, but a fancy little

01:10:10.289 --> 01:10:16.630
bar. Yes! That was the album that I fell in love

01:10:16.630 --> 01:10:20.670
with. And I've gone back. Her first few records

01:10:20.670 --> 01:10:24.029
are great. Yeah. But really, to me, like that

01:10:24.029 --> 01:10:28.630
and the two or three since that. Yeah. Like Tidal

01:10:28.630 --> 01:10:32.010
and the Idler Wheel, et cetera. Et cetera, et

01:10:32.010 --> 01:10:34.210
cetera, et cetera. Like those three records.

01:10:34.529 --> 01:10:38.250
Yeah. Oh, Tidal's really good. Extraordinary

01:10:38.250 --> 01:10:41.649
Machine, the Idler Wheel, and then, fuck, she

01:10:41.649 --> 01:10:45.000
just put one out. in 2020 yeah oh god i'm not

01:10:45.000 --> 01:10:46.840
gonna remember the name of it though that was

01:10:46.840 --> 01:10:50.119
so memorable even the show she put on it she

01:10:50.119 --> 01:10:53.439
had that straight hair it was she was just it

01:10:53.439 --> 01:10:56.060
was she can be hit or miss though like she doesn't

01:10:56.060 --> 01:10:59.460
like to perform god it was amazing it's incredible

01:10:59.460 --> 01:11:02.060
but she's somebody that got really hurt by the

01:11:02.060 --> 01:11:06.319
industry you know yeah yeah yeah yeah so what

01:11:06.319 --> 01:11:10.149
was your first song about Yeah, we're time traveling

01:11:10.149 --> 01:11:13.329
a little bit, but that's okay. That's okay. Trying

01:11:13.329 --> 01:11:17.590
to think. First song was, it's a song called

01:11:17.590 --> 01:11:21.949
Dessert. And a friend of mine, much older than

01:11:21.949 --> 01:11:25.989
I, a student of mine, gave me the best advice.

01:11:26.470 --> 01:11:29.789
She gave me the best. She was like, she knew

01:11:29.789 --> 01:11:33.670
the person that we had fallen for each other.

01:11:33.770 --> 01:11:37.239
She knew him. And she knew the situation that

01:11:37.239 --> 01:11:39.600
we were in. He was not completely out of the

01:11:39.600 --> 01:11:43.220
relationship that he was still in. It's a shock

01:11:43.220 --> 01:11:46.020
that it didn't work out. Shocking, right? Absolutely

01:11:46.020 --> 01:11:51.399
shocking. The scandal of the century, let me

01:11:51.399 --> 01:11:54.100
tell you. And so she said to me, she said a line

01:11:54.100 --> 01:11:58.340
to me in a lesson that I was like, you are a

01:11:58.340 --> 01:12:00.000
genius and I'm going to write a song about that

01:12:00.000 --> 01:12:01.260
because I know it's going to be therapeutic.

01:12:01.479 --> 01:12:04.300
She said, you can't live on dessert alone. She's

01:12:04.300 --> 01:12:06.779
like, Therese, I know how good this feels. I

01:12:06.779 --> 01:12:09.579
see you when you're together. I see the chemistry.

01:12:09.680 --> 01:12:12.640
I see it all. But you can't live on dessert alone.

01:12:12.819 --> 01:12:16.260
You have to see how – and I was like, whoa. So

01:12:16.260 --> 01:12:21.560
I wrote this. She said you can't live on dessert

01:12:21.560 --> 01:12:28.340
alone. I'm really grateful that through the experiences

01:12:28.340 --> 01:12:32.899
and especially through pain, through – a heartache

01:12:32.899 --> 01:12:37.500
where you could feel it, that I had music, that

01:12:37.500 --> 01:12:40.960
I could write down words, how I felt, how the

01:12:40.960 --> 01:12:43.760
situation, whatever, how I think they felt, and

01:12:43.760 --> 01:12:46.520
then create it and formulate and cross things

01:12:46.520 --> 01:12:50.199
out and move things here. That is so therapeutic

01:12:50.199 --> 01:12:51.880
to me. So now that you're in a better place,

01:12:51.979 --> 01:12:56.560
how do you approach songwriting? I haven't. Uh

01:12:56.560 --> 01:13:02.779
-oh. Isn't that crazy? I... Here's my question.

01:13:02.840 --> 01:13:04.960
If you go long enough without writing songs,

01:13:05.239 --> 01:13:07.260
are you going to lose touch with the thing that's

01:13:07.260 --> 01:13:10.319
making you okay? That's a great question. Actually,

01:13:10.420 --> 01:13:14.619
I was just prompted to do another songwriter's

01:13:14.619 --> 01:13:17.840
night where I need to have a few more songs.

01:13:17.960 --> 01:13:21.520
And I thought this. I was like, huh, all of the

01:13:21.520 --> 01:13:25.399
songs that I've written have been during a time

01:13:25.399 --> 01:13:30.189
of great change. A lot of change. But not only

01:13:30.189 --> 01:13:31.789
that, I want to stop you from saying, you've

01:13:31.789 --> 01:13:34.670
told me today that they were part of that change.

01:13:34.949 --> 01:13:38.810
Absolutely. Fundamental part. Do you think that

01:13:38.810 --> 01:13:41.449
continuing to write songs is a fundamental part

01:13:41.449 --> 01:13:45.229
of trying to be who you are from now on? Yes.

01:13:45.229 --> 01:13:50.090
From now on, yeah. Absolutely. Now it's an avenue.

01:13:50.890 --> 01:13:52.689
That's what I've been getting at. It's not just

01:13:52.689 --> 01:13:54.890
the life experience. No, now it's an avenue.

01:13:55.609 --> 01:13:59.590
Now writing songs, that's something that's uncompromising.

01:13:59.850 --> 01:14:04.090
Yep. And it's mine. Whenever I want to do it,

01:14:04.130 --> 01:14:07.510
however, and whenever I feel like it. I don't

01:14:07.510 --> 01:14:11.010
need to write a song in a year if I don't want

01:14:11.010 --> 01:14:15.489
to. No. But if it comes, if it's bubbling. Have

01:14:15.489 --> 01:14:17.149
all your songs come like that? Or have you ever

01:14:17.149 --> 01:14:19.310
sat down and been like, I'm writing a song about

01:14:19.310 --> 01:14:23.409
X? Never. It was always, I need to get this out.

01:14:24.000 --> 01:14:27.380
Let me get this out of my body. So I have somewhere

01:14:27.380 --> 01:14:29.699
else to put it. Has it ever been the opposite

01:14:29.699 --> 01:14:32.140
where you were like, you had your antenna up

01:14:32.140 --> 01:14:35.000
and something maybe not happened to you, but

01:14:35.000 --> 01:14:36.819
you observed something and you were like, I have

01:14:36.819 --> 01:14:39.760
to write about this. Because I've heard that

01:14:39.760 --> 01:14:43.100
like analogy a lot. Lake Ella. Yes. I was at

01:14:43.100 --> 01:14:47.720
Lake Ella once and I knew I wanted to write something

01:14:47.720 --> 01:14:52.189
as like an ode to. My time, all the different

01:14:52.189 --> 01:14:55.189
experiences that I've had in that area, my time

01:14:55.189 --> 01:14:58.289
there. There you go. Feeding the ducks. I've

01:14:58.289 --> 01:15:00.149
been going there. I went to that church. Oh,

01:15:00.250 --> 01:15:06.310
yeah. That scout house there. Yeah. Oh, okay.

01:15:06.470 --> 01:15:09.770
So I wrote, that's probably the only song I have,

01:15:09.770 --> 01:15:12.250
I believe, that was written that way. I was,

01:15:12.329 --> 01:15:15.850
I knew I wanted to do like an ode to Lake Ella.

01:15:15.930 --> 01:15:18.399
And so I, that was my mindset. But everything

01:15:18.399 --> 01:15:21.399
else was I need this out of my body. Get this

01:15:21.399 --> 01:15:24.539
feeling out or let's talk about this. And before

01:15:24.539 --> 01:15:26.520
I start to ask you about things that you have

01:15:26.520 --> 01:15:28.399
coming up or what you've got going on right now,

01:15:28.560 --> 01:15:32.500
just to follow up on that, have you ever written

01:15:32.500 --> 01:15:34.859
a song like from a point of view that wasn't

01:15:34.859 --> 01:15:39.520
yours as a character? Because as someone who

01:15:39.520 --> 01:15:43.819
loved musicals so much and it's such a foundational

01:15:43.819 --> 01:15:46.260
part. Have you ever thought about that? Just

01:15:46.260 --> 01:15:49.279
maybe that's an avenue that you have to force

01:15:49.279 --> 01:15:52.260
a little bit more. It's not going to bubble out

01:15:52.260 --> 01:15:56.039
of you. But I think the creative force, like

01:15:56.039 --> 01:15:59.699
once it's unleashed. It's a great idea. It has

01:15:59.699 --> 01:16:02.810
to go somewhere. Yeah. It started as more therapy

01:16:02.810 --> 01:16:06.270
for me. But now, I'm sure. Well, now you're like,

01:16:06.369 --> 01:16:09.270
I just signed up for the songwriters. Yes, exactly.

01:16:10.369 --> 01:16:12.550
Yeah. You tell a story about the first time I

01:16:12.550 --> 01:16:14.930
ever signed up for stand -up comedy. Yeah. I

01:16:14.930 --> 01:16:18.250
didn't have, I had probably a couple of things

01:16:18.250 --> 01:16:20.250
that I'd said in the past that I turned into

01:16:20.250 --> 01:16:23.090
jokes that I put on that set. But I didn't have

01:16:23.090 --> 01:16:25.569
any, oh, this is a joke I would tell on stage

01:16:25.569 --> 01:16:27.729
if I ever did. I literally signed up. I'm like,

01:16:27.770 --> 01:16:31.520
I'm going on in two weeks. Ooh. I've got five

01:16:31.520 --> 01:16:33.380
minutes. I've got to write five minutes of material.

01:16:34.119 --> 01:16:41.100
And in a way, it forced me to do it. And so I'm

01:16:41.100 --> 01:16:43.239
wondering, did you sign up for that because you

01:16:43.239 --> 01:16:46.039
felt the need to write more songs but didn't

01:16:46.039 --> 01:16:47.560
necessarily know where they were going to come

01:16:47.560 --> 01:16:50.239
from? The very first songwriter, I've done two

01:16:50.239 --> 01:16:53.819
of them. The first one I did, I needed more songs.

01:16:54.199 --> 01:16:57.380
I got an email that said eight to ten pieces,

01:16:57.560 --> 01:17:01.319
and I had five. And I was like, shit, I need

01:17:01.319 --> 01:17:03.939
to write more pieces. So it came out of necessity

01:17:03.939 --> 01:17:10.100
the first time. Second time around, I used a

01:17:10.100 --> 01:17:11.960
lot of the ones from before, but I did, I wrote

01:17:11.960 --> 01:17:14.619
a few new ones. And they were just inspired.

01:17:14.800 --> 01:17:17.359
They were not, it wasn't, I want to write about

01:17:17.359 --> 01:17:22.140
this or this. But then this next round, I think

01:17:22.140 --> 01:17:25.279
I want to do more that. I was inspired by like

01:17:25.279 --> 01:17:29.460
Ella. I felt really open to the area and memories

01:17:29.460 --> 01:17:31.340
started flooding back. I think it's definitely

01:17:31.340 --> 01:17:33.920
worth exploring now, putting myself in a different

01:17:33.920 --> 01:17:36.819
perspective or a different time frame even. Yeah.

01:17:37.300 --> 01:17:41.359
So let's shift to what you've got coming up.

01:17:41.500 --> 01:17:44.239
First of all, how long is your waiting list for

01:17:44.239 --> 01:17:49.260
music classes? And that's actually if you have

01:17:49.260 --> 01:17:53.699
a few more minutes. Yeah. Yeah. Why did you end

01:17:53.699 --> 01:17:56.479
up focusing what to you is so important about

01:17:56.479 --> 01:17:59.579
music education above that to where you wanted

01:17:59.579 --> 01:18:02.760
to devote your life to it? A couple things. I

01:18:02.760 --> 01:18:07.819
am not the type of person who can work daily

01:18:07.819 --> 01:18:12.479
in something that I don't love. Me neither. I

01:18:12.479 --> 01:18:16.439
would probably not be on the planet if that were

01:18:16.439 --> 01:18:20.039
the case. If I had a desk job. I can't. I just

01:18:20.039 --> 01:18:24.899
can't do it. It's not in me. It's not in me.

01:18:25.060 --> 01:18:26.000
I tried for a long time because I felt like I

01:18:26.000 --> 01:18:28.880
had to. Same. And I was just met with repeated

01:18:28.880 --> 01:18:33.680
failure. Yeah. I just can't do it. I can't. So

01:18:33.680 --> 01:18:39.199
through being really poor and very underfunded

01:18:39.199 --> 01:18:42.439
as a human being, I started. Would you say that

01:18:42.439 --> 01:18:44.880
you're overeducated and underemployed? I'm just

01:18:44.880 --> 01:18:47.949
curious. Not everybody I've talked to. Not now.

01:18:48.130 --> 01:18:51.569
How long is your waiting list? I have 13 people

01:18:51.569 --> 01:18:55.409
on the list right now. Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm

01:18:55.409 --> 01:18:57.989
going to, like literally tomorrow, I think it's

01:18:57.989 --> 01:19:00.369
going to be less, but that's fine. Yeah, no,

01:19:00.449 --> 01:19:03.210
I have 13 people and I'm freaking proud to say

01:19:03.210 --> 01:19:07.289
it. It's been 16 years now of teaching lessons

01:19:07.289 --> 01:19:09.909
privately, one person at a time and then word

01:19:09.909 --> 01:19:12.829
of mouth. And I know I'm good at it. I know.

01:19:13.529 --> 01:19:16.670
That it is my, like, we're talking about divine

01:19:16.670 --> 01:19:20.130
stuff. Like, this is my gift to explain vocal

01:19:20.130 --> 01:19:24.050
stuff in a relatable way and to head things,

01:19:24.270 --> 01:19:28.210
to personally, one -on -one, but also in a choir

01:19:28.210 --> 01:19:32.109
setting, to be able to relay information in a

01:19:32.109 --> 01:19:37.529
positive, relatable manner. So, first of all,

01:19:37.590 --> 01:19:40.920
like, as somebody who has received... some of

01:19:40.920 --> 01:19:44.300
your instructions and education. I completely

01:19:44.300 --> 01:19:48.180
agree that you are fabulous at what you do. Thank

01:19:48.180 --> 01:19:50.399
you. Or I wouldn't be sitting here with you right

01:19:50.399 --> 01:19:54.539
now. That being said, I am very curious, like,

01:19:54.600 --> 01:20:00.199
where you draw the line with a student where

01:20:00.199 --> 01:20:02.640
you think, okay, I can't help them any more than

01:20:02.640 --> 01:20:05.539
I already have. When you have a waiting list

01:20:05.539 --> 01:20:09.000
of 13, I imagine you approach it a little bit

01:20:09.000 --> 01:20:11.260
like a doctor where it's, or a lawyer where it's,

01:20:11.260 --> 01:20:13.199
if you're not, if you're not holding up your

01:20:13.199 --> 01:20:15.699
end of the bargain, maybe I'm not the teacher

01:20:15.699 --> 01:20:20.880
for you. It's usually, luckily it's been very

01:20:20.880 --> 01:20:23.979
organic up until now where knock on all the wood

01:20:23.979 --> 01:20:29.880
around people naturally. will either fade out

01:20:29.880 --> 01:20:34.180
or their money will fade out or they'll move.

01:20:34.239 --> 01:20:37.140
Or it happens, but it happens. She's not cheap,

01:20:37.199 --> 01:20:40.699
folks. Their money runs out. I need to drive.

01:20:41.020 --> 01:20:45.699
I need them. Thank God, though. It all has happened

01:20:45.699 --> 01:20:49.159
in a pretty organic timing way. And I figured

01:20:49.159 --> 01:20:52.300
it out like by last year. I figured it out. You

01:20:52.300 --> 01:20:54.920
make a new schedule at the start of the summer.

01:20:55.229 --> 01:20:57.189
Then you make another new schedule at the start

01:20:57.189 --> 01:20:58.569
of the school year. And just all these little

01:20:58.569 --> 01:20:59.789
things you figure out. Well, everybody's schedule

01:20:59.789 --> 01:21:05.710
changes. Oh, gosh. So overall, I am going to

01:21:05.710 --> 01:21:10.289
keep you. If you are showing effort, if you still

01:21:10.289 --> 01:21:13.779
want it. I guess at a certain point, like if

01:21:13.779 --> 01:21:15.199
they don't want it, they're not going to pay

01:21:15.199 --> 01:21:18.180
for it. That's right. And it usually will happen

01:21:18.180 --> 01:21:21.319
that, you know, it happens in so many ways. People

01:21:21.319 --> 01:21:23.779
will text me and say, I love you so much. I just

01:21:23.779 --> 01:21:27.220
can't afford it right now. Or I've loved what

01:21:27.220 --> 01:21:32.380
I've learned and I'm moving. Right. So many different

01:21:32.380 --> 01:21:36.319
things. So my job is to never take offense, first

01:21:36.319 --> 01:21:39.800
of all, to hope that I've given them a good,

01:21:39.819 --> 01:21:43.979
solid singing foundation. foundation and to keep

01:21:43.979 --> 01:21:47.460
moving forward. Have any like really long running

01:21:47.460 --> 01:21:49.300
students that you want to like give a shout out?

01:21:49.300 --> 01:21:54.000
Oh my gosh. Yes. I have three that are still

01:21:54.000 --> 01:21:56.359
with me. One, her name is Ellie Hall. I have

01:21:56.359 --> 01:21:59.500
been with her for just so many years. It was

01:21:59.500 --> 01:22:02.479
almost since I first moved here. And then my

01:22:02.479 --> 01:22:07.939
first ever. Students are still with me. The younger

01:22:07.939 --> 01:22:10.340
one took a break at one point, and they'll take

01:22:10.340 --> 01:22:12.760
summers off sometimes, but they are still with

01:22:12.760 --> 01:22:15.640
me. Meda and Viba, they're a sister pair. And

01:22:15.640 --> 01:22:21.020
they, oh, what voices! Ah! Just raw, gorgeous

01:22:21.020 --> 01:22:24.640
voices. Beautiful human beings, too. Just to

01:22:24.640 --> 01:22:27.579
take a 10 ,000 -foot view of all this for a second.

01:22:28.159 --> 01:22:31.180
What do you think is the importance of arts education,

01:22:31.539 --> 01:22:36.420
not just music education, in a more public setting

01:22:36.420 --> 01:22:38.420
where it's not... You've been fortunate enough

01:22:38.420 --> 01:22:42.239
to be able to teach students who really want

01:22:42.239 --> 01:22:45.680
to focus on it. What about the students that

01:22:45.680 --> 01:22:47.960
don't know they need arts education? What about

01:22:47.960 --> 01:22:50.159
the parents of students who don't know they need

01:22:50.159 --> 01:22:52.920
arts education? What do you view as the value

01:22:52.920 --> 01:22:57.579
of music and art education? To being like a holistic

01:22:57.579 --> 01:23:03.720
human being. Oh my God. Massive. Massive. What

01:23:03.720 --> 01:23:05.819
do you see in the young students that you teach?

01:23:05.920 --> 01:23:08.020
Oh, it's the best. In terms of development and

01:23:08.020 --> 01:23:12.119
things that they realize. It reminds me of myself.

01:23:12.220 --> 01:23:16.000
It's that ability to be, to have freedom, to

01:23:16.000 --> 01:23:22.220
have choices, to have creative outlet, to hear

01:23:22.220 --> 01:23:27.340
a song. being played by you or being sung by

01:23:27.340 --> 01:23:30.420
you that you've heard on, I was going to say

01:23:30.420 --> 01:23:32.899
the radio, but this is the radio anymore, that

01:23:32.899 --> 01:23:35.699
you've heard on Spotify for so long. And it's

01:23:35.699 --> 01:23:39.180
them recognizing that they can make those sounds

01:23:39.180 --> 01:23:44.319
too. It can come out of you too. It feels amazing.

01:23:45.119 --> 01:23:50.159
I watched a TED Talk this week. Yeah? And one

01:23:50.159 --> 01:23:53.920
of the things that, it was all about... how to

01:23:53.920 --> 01:23:58.600
justify being a creative person when the world

01:23:58.600 --> 01:24:01.340
is on fire. And one thing that she said that

01:24:01.340 --> 01:24:05.260
has stuck with me probably eternally from now

01:24:05.260 --> 01:24:09.060
on is that when you're the creator of something,

01:24:09.159 --> 01:24:13.640
you're the god of your own universe. And it sounds

01:24:13.640 --> 01:24:17.810
like instilling the ability... For people to

01:24:17.810 --> 01:24:21.789
be the gods of their own universe. Hell yes.

01:24:22.350 --> 01:24:32.170
Hell yes. With 14 periods after that. Hell yes.

01:24:33.189 --> 01:24:36.949
With good technique, too. Hell yes. So you're

01:24:36.949 --> 01:24:40.100
also a choir director. Yes. Can you talk about

01:24:40.100 --> 01:24:42.920
your approach to a community choir that's a little

01:24:42.920 --> 01:24:44.960
bit different from the traditional community?

01:24:45.000 --> 01:24:47.220
Yeah. I think a lot of community bands, community

01:24:47.220 --> 01:24:51.060
theater, community choirs try to find a spot

01:24:51.060 --> 01:24:54.180
for every voice. Yep. And that's great. That's

01:24:54.180 --> 01:24:56.960
got its place. That's not necessarily what you're

01:24:56.960 --> 01:25:00.020
up to. Yeah. So can you talk about the difference

01:25:00.020 --> 01:25:04.500
there for a second? My idea behind this group

01:25:04.500 --> 01:25:07.920
was for it to, yes, be accessible. to the community

01:25:07.920 --> 01:25:10.859
for it not to be related or affiliated with any

01:25:10.859 --> 01:25:12.899
university because that's a big thing in this

01:25:12.899 --> 01:25:16.720
city. There's a lot of great university music

01:25:16.720 --> 01:25:18.779
that can be made. But if you're not affiliated

01:25:18.779 --> 01:25:23.279
with it, it's hard to find like quality group.

01:25:23.619 --> 01:25:25.140
And there's a lot of people in the community

01:25:25.140 --> 01:25:27.420
that aren't affiliated with the university at

01:25:27.420 --> 01:25:30.199
all. So those people just need to be found. That's

01:25:30.199 --> 01:25:33.800
the thing. And I felt like there's that sort

01:25:33.800 --> 01:25:37.079
of niche that needs to be. filled here in Tallahassee

01:25:37.079 --> 01:25:41.279
where there are good musicians. I have some amazing

01:25:41.279 --> 01:25:45.180
musicians in that group of people. No, I'm out

01:25:45.180 --> 01:25:48.920
of my league. No, stop. I know you're nice and

01:25:48.920 --> 01:25:50.720
you're being kind and I don't even necessarily

01:25:50.720 --> 01:25:53.539
mean in terms of my voice, although I think that's

01:25:53.539 --> 01:25:57.819
up for debate too, but I am the least versed

01:25:57.819 --> 01:26:02.180
musician in that room by far. Isn't it cool to...

01:26:02.760 --> 01:26:06.399
I think that is freaking awesome. That's what

01:26:06.399 --> 01:26:11.340
I want. I would. That's my dream. I want people

01:26:11.340 --> 01:26:15.840
of very different musical backgrounds. As long

01:26:15.840 --> 01:26:20.420
as they have a solid voice, we can make any kind

01:26:20.420 --> 01:26:23.420
of amazing group with you. Anything can happen.

01:26:23.460 --> 01:26:27.020
Also because there are different reading abilities.

01:26:27.220 --> 01:26:30.479
There are different sustaining abilities. Literally,

01:26:30.720 --> 01:26:33.000
physically, we have a couple of blind members

01:26:33.000 --> 01:26:35.680
in our group. Yes! Last week, when you said something

01:26:35.680 --> 01:26:37.439
about we're going to try it without sight reading,

01:26:37.500 --> 01:26:39.500
I'm like, I was going to remind everybody that

01:26:39.500 --> 01:26:42.720
there's a couple of people that never. Step it

01:26:42.720 --> 01:26:46.220
up. Step that shit up. Totally, dude. Totally.

01:26:46.600 --> 01:26:49.460
And it's crazy, too, how amazing of a musician

01:26:49.460 --> 01:26:52.699
she is. Oh, my God. It's so cool. God, I could

01:26:52.699 --> 01:26:55.159
talk to you all night, but. The next thing that

01:26:55.159 --> 01:26:58.119
I have coming up is in September is the Jazz

01:26:58.119 --> 01:27:00.520
Time Machine. That's the biggest one. You beat

01:27:00.520 --> 01:27:04.720
me to it. That's coming up in September. And

01:27:04.720 --> 01:27:07.869
then actually three of my... The three of the

01:27:07.869 --> 01:27:10.430
students in my studio are putting on a triple

01:27:10.430 --> 01:27:12.670
bill. So it'll be the three of them, 45 minutes

01:27:12.670 --> 01:27:16.029
each at the Blue Tavern. That's the thing after

01:27:16.029 --> 01:27:18.510
that. I think I'll be a part of that. I'll be

01:27:18.510 --> 01:27:20.970
accompanying and I'll be there, of course. And

01:27:20.970 --> 01:27:22.930
then eventually they'll be that songwriters.

01:27:22.989 --> 01:27:25.930
I forget when that even is, but here I am. Any

01:27:25.930 --> 01:27:31.789
last words? No, just this is so fun. I could

01:27:31.789 --> 01:27:33.489
do this for hours as well. This is very fun.

01:27:33.609 --> 01:27:35.609
You make this very easy. Maybe we should just

01:27:35.609 --> 01:27:39.199
start a podcast. Just hours of us going, and

01:27:39.199 --> 01:27:42.640
then in music. And then in my life.