Thank you. Welcome to Overeducated and Underemployed.
I'm Fedden, and I'm here with Sony recording
artist Ina and Elizabeth Frable, who has been
in, like, so many amazing bands that I don't
even know where to start. She is a music teacher,
but Adventures of Annabelle Lynn comes to mind.
One of her current bands is the Dolce Trio. Is
there any others that you want to name right
now? Because we will talk about probably a lot
of them. But is there any others you want to
name off the bat that you're currently playing
with? I'm currently playing with Raising Cane.
And then I'll sit in with Rachel Hillman on occasion.
And if anybody needs an upright bass player and
they give me a call, I say yes. That is awesome.
Yeah. I play with Frank Lindemood as a duo a
lot, too. Awesome. Ina has released... at least
three albums, I think, or three EPs and singles
and albums. Yeah, you've got a conglomeration
of all of them. And she's doing a project this
year of 25 songs for 25. That's correct. That's
going to be like two albums in and of itself
right there. That's what it feels like, yes.
But I'm going to go ahead and ask both of y 'all
the same question that I ask everybody when I
start, and what is the first song that you remember
loving? And go ahead and start with you, and
then we'll... Sure thing. What is the first song
that I remember loving early into my childhood?
My mom would always sing, I've got sunshine on
a cloudy day when it's cold outside. And I don't
know why for the life of me, because I've heard
it for all my life. I can't remember the name
of the songs of temptation. Yeah, so that's probably
mine. It's because it's always been in the household.
Oh, yeah? So your mom would sing it to you a
lot? Yes, yes. She's not very musical, but she's
passionate. I would get her singing voice all
the time. She would sing that to me as she was
walking out the room. She'd put me down for a
nap and try to lull me to sleep to remind me
that I was being put down for a nap. So that's
what I remember her most from. And what about
you, Elizabeth? As you were answering that question,
I'm thinking back. There are so many songs that...
crossed through my life growing up with church
music and then going to lots of bluegrass music
festivals with my parents. It was constant. music
in my life. But I think that one of the most
impactful early moments that I had was my mom
took me to go see Bonnie Raitt. And it was the
first real concert. It wasn't a bluegrass festival,
like we bought tickets, we had seats, we had
to sit in the seats the whole time. But it was
Bonnie Raitt and Angel from Montgomery just rang
out. And then my mom and I were sitting there
and she's we should learn this song and perform
it. And so she got us a gig at this really amazing
theater in downtown Clearwater. And so within
a couple of weeks, we were performing it on stage.
And it was this really important kind of pivotal
moment for me. It was my first gig. I think I
got paid like $10 to stand up and sing Angel
from Montgomery with my mom. And I played the
upright bass for that. But that was, I didn't
realize it was a John Prine song until much later.
I always thought it was a Bonnie Wright song.
She did. She did. But John Prine. is like one
of my favorite songwriters of all time. I appreciate
that you recognize, giving him a little bit of
credit. A little. She totally did own that song
though. When did you, and I'll stick with you
for just a second, Elizabeth. When did you first
pick up an instrument then? I believe it was
a violin when I was in first grade. And you won't
see me playing it out in public at all, but I
still. Own my violin. Yes, I play it by myself.
graded to a bass fiddle, to a big upright bass
in second grade and stood up on a milk crate
with some of my mom's friends. We had a big jam
circle and there was a woman that stood next
to me and she did all the fretting. She held
down all the strings and just told me which ones
to pluck. And so that was my first experience
playing an instrument with people. The violin
hurt my ears and I gave it up pretty fast because
I sounded so terrible. I knew that when I was
in first grade. I was like, this isn't how it's
supposed to sound. You know it's bad when you've
got to put in earplugs to listen to yourself
play. Even in first grade, you knew. Yeah, yep.
Were you raised in a really musical household?
I would say... Yes and no. Both my parents love
music, but neither of them were professional
musicians. My dad was in our church choir, so
I'd go to church choir with him a lot. But most
of the music that was in our household was them
supporting me, doing whatever I was doing with
music. We had a piano in our house growing up.
So to piggyback off of what you were saying,
I started music really young as well. We had
this piano in our house and I would just, before
my head could even reach above the piano, I was
just like fiddling around with the sounds and
I learned how to play piano by ear at a really
young age and it wasn't until I think middle
school, yes, that I got into band and everything.
picked up the French horn and sounded probably
six times as awful as your violin. We had practicing
hours in the house when they were like, hey,
you can blow up the piece in our house from this
time to this time exactly. But yeah, I would
say the music in the house was supported by my
parents a lot. Yeah. Were they listeners or concert
goers at all? Yeah, absolutely. Definitely listeners.
Not as many concerts, I would say. I think it's
so cool your mom brought you out to so many gigs.
gigs but we had a band shell actually by this
lake that I grew up by and we would go to concerts
there sometimes but like the big ones and stuff
not so much that's a great segue into the next
thing I really like to ask people is what is
your first what was your first concert And you
can go ahead. OK, on the first concert. Yeah,
back and forth is great. The first concert that
I remember going to very clearly was a the Trans
-Siberian Orchestra had come to town when I was
in middle school. And this was like one of my
favorite bands. My dad and I would always listen
to their music, specifically their Christmas
album in the car. So that was the first one that
I remember, like a big concert. Nice. And that's
such an intense listening experience. Dude, it
was so cool. How old were you? I think I was
like... Maybe 11 or 12. One of those ages where
the lights are going on and all of a sudden you're
tinkering on the piano and going, oh, that wrong
note is actually just right. I feel like all
parents take their kids to a show like that around
11 or 12, especially if they don't have great
insurance because it's like a good epilepsy test.
That's funny because my dad actually has epilepsy.
The concert did nothing though, so we were good.
It was really great. Exactly. The warnings on
everything. right no you i'm if you're familiar
with their music and their shows they do so many
strobe lights so i was thinking about it going
i was like i wonder if this is gonna turn into
an emergency but i didn't it was just an experience
it was cool it really is like one of the most
like high level production shows out there absolutely
yeah and it loud too super and it was so cool
also to see the orchestra perform in such a different
way than is classically trained or classically
taught rather. So I thought that was so cool.
They just turned it into this experience that
you would have never assumed would have been
in a single room together, if that makes sense.
Yeah, amazing. I think that I probably was going
to live music shows from what my parents have
told me. Like I was in diapers and they would
lay out the blankets at the music festivals and
I'd be like... smearing ice cream all over my
face and eating dirt. And there was like Bill
Monroe and John Hartford on stage behind me in
the backdrop. There was like a lot of those legends
of bluegrass music were playing these festivals
around Florida. Tony Rice and Emmylou Harris,
all these people, they'll come up in conversation
and my mom's, yeah, we took you to that show.
And I'm like, well, what? Okay. I was there and
I don't remember, but that's awesome. I remember.
Jerry Douglas playing back in the early 90s before
he came became like this legendary the masterful
dobro player Bela Fleck and a lot of these really
huge titans oh I met Alison Krauss when I was
like in third grade I walked up to her table
after the show and I was like hi and the uncomfortable
pause just lasted way too long and then I said
you look just like my aunt and I really like
your music And then I ran away. But yeah, going
to shows has just always been part of my family's
rotation. Every season is this festival or that
festival. And I'm just so grateful for that experience
and being able to pass that on to my kids because
they're now 17 and 22. And I did the same thing.
I took them to all these shows and now they're
listening. I was riding around with my son the
other day and he was playing like his latest
Spotify playlist that he's put together. And
he was playing all these. people that we've seen
at festivals at spirit of the swanee actually
he's at bonnaroo right now so he's eclipsed my
concert going i'm gonna really get that list
of artists from him yeah that is awesome one
thing i've realized lately is sometimes as a
performer you're gonna end up missing the shows
you really want to be so true yeah yeah it's
bittersweet i when wilco came here wilco and
laxahatchee i had a gig And I couldn't be there,
but everybody was like, oh, that's the best show
that happened this year. I was like, dang it.
Don't tell me that. I've seen Wilco four times.
Uh -huh. That was my least favorite Wilco show.
Oh, all right. It was still great. It wasn't
my favorite show this year. Thank you. It wasn't
my favorite show in this city either. Now we
feel better. Totally. We didn't even miss the
best one. That's right. It was a great show.
I think I went to three other shows that month
that I would say were just as good, if not better.
And I'm pretty sure you were at least a couple
of them. Uh -huh. Okay, good. I got to explore
more music and more artists. Just hearing artists
talk about all of the different people they've
seen. I couldn't name Temptations. I knew it,
but I couldn't name it. And I love when people
talk about what they're interested in, especially
when it comes to artists. I got my homework to
do. I'm going to be following up with you both
about a list of musicians, especially Florida
-based. One thing I will say, though, that's
come up. frequently with the artists that i've
talked to is some artists want to take it all
in include it all some of them when they go into
creative mode they go into a vacuum and they're
like okay everything that i've heard up until
now can be an influence but nothing that nothing
can influence what i'm doing currently and i
don't think there's a right or wrong way to do
it is i guess what i'm getting at Having a lot,
having an encyclopedic knowledge of music means
a whole lot. That usually is the sign of somebody
that doesn't create a lot of music, like this
guy over here. Nobody's naming names. I don't
know a lot of musicians that are also, like,
really, like, I know a bunch of names of songs,
and sure, to an extent, but it's always their
fans that know. All the shit. I'll go and talk
to some of my favorite artists and know more
about their own songs sometimes than they do.
I remember one time I texted Jay Gonzalez. I
was like, this is the 20th anniversary of the
Dirty South. But you probably already knew that.
And he was like, no, I didn't. News to me. Because
we've been friendly for a long time. But I think
that encompasses what I'm talking about. Yeah,
absolutely. We're the music nerds are the ones
that keep track of that. stuff. You had the memory,
you had this, you knew what song you were talking
about. 100%. The nerd knew the name. No, but
I think I am trying to, especially with this
25 for 2025 project, expand past, I think, my
comfort zone. Because you're absolutely right.
I feel when you find your groove with music,
especially as a creative and an artist, it's
really easy to want to block everything out.
And to an extent, for me, I know it's been necessary
to really form my own craft. But now I'm trying
to write outside of my comfort zone and explore
a little bit more. And so having those names
would be... awesome what would you call your
comfort zone sure so i would say r &b and folk
to an extent would be where i've written in the
most it's what's come easiest to me and where
i've yeah i would like almost like an india harry
yeah you got it i love her music yes absolutely
Some Adele, so some pop in there. Billie Eilish.
Yeah, Andy Arie. I'm so glad you said her name.
I haven't thought about her music in a hot minute.
Yeah. What's your comfort zone? Go ahead and
say whatever you were going to say. I'm sorry.
I was going to follow up and say there have been
a lot of different chapters in my musical life,
and I think that there's so much. Before we started,
we were talking about how There's just so much
demand for digital content. When you're an independent
artist, you are managing all of your bookings,
all of your social media, and then there's this
whole thing that you have to do as a musician,
which is to play and sing and line up, make sure
your band is, everybody is happy and taken care
of and shows up and gets paid. So there's so
many different hats that we wear. And a lot of
times my listening is just whatever pops up on
my Spotify queue as I'm driving to the gigs or
driving to practice. But I don't have a lot of
time to be a connoisseur when I'm because I teach
full time. I teach music full time. And so my
hours are so limited. And when I'm sometimes
when I'm listening in the car, I'm listening
to practice. I'm listening to learn a vocal part
or just feel out different ways that other artists
have covered a song if it's a cover. But I also
notice that there's a lot of tension for me between...
playing out if I'm booking a lot of shows and
I'm performing a lot then I don't get as much
time to write and to create and so this summer
I was very intentional to take most of June off
I'm not working I've only got three gigs this
month and I am waking up early I'm going to bed
early I'm taking care of myself so that I can
write so that I can create so I'm really digging
in and COVID was really like the ultimate stop
to everything because I was going really hard
for a long time I'd written a lot of music and
toured from like 2016 to 2019 extensively on
the weekends in the summer every chance that
I could and then 2020 rolled around and all of
a sudden everything froze and I had time to write
again and it was the first time that I realized
that dissonance had kind of left me feeling empty.
And we had recorded my band at the time, Adventures
of Annabelle Lynn had released two albums, and
I didn't have a whole lot more material to start
contributing to a third album. It was a nice
opportunity to step back and go, okay, there's
only so many hours in the day. My energy needs
to, I need to be wise about how I use my energy
and understand the ebb and flow of it all. Oh,
that's a great point. That's a really good point.
Is everything okay? Checking on the baby. As
much as that stuff can distract from the creative
process sometimes, how hard is it to give over
control? And I'll start with you as someone who's
signed with a major label. And with that comes
a loss of control of certain things. How hard
was it for you to give that control up? Absolutely.
Actually, I'm really glad that you asked that
because that's something that I've been emotionally
navigating for myself. There's so much more that
goes, like Elizabeth was talking about, there's
so much more that goes into music than just the
song, especially when it's being packaged for
mass distribution. And so you're thinking about
the visuals, you're thinking about would I actually
be comfortable performing what I'm singing? And
so the way I went into the distribution deal
was I wanted to create five new songs to... just
try writing outside of my comfort zone, try leaning
into what was comfortable as well. So all five
of these songs were totally new and they picked
a song that for me was the most probably sexual
and vulnerable song, to be honest with you. And
I was really excited to write all these things,
but then that's to answer your question where
the control aspect came in. I was thinking, okay,
once I put this forward, how much control will
I actually have over the image? over how it's
portrayed and i think it's been a journey for
sure in learning to figure out my non -negotiables
for what i want for my image but also a journey
to let go and decide okay it's okay to step into
this new era as long as i know myself well enough
that nothing's going to shake me to the core
in proceeding with this opportunity so when you
put a song out there versus giving it to a label,
do you worry about how it's interpreted? In a
way, yes. So this is my first time. The distribution
deal. with Sony and through IGA Talent Management
as a single distribution deal. And so this is
my first time interfacing with it. It's the only
one that I'm currently working on towards major
distribution. I'm really lucky to work with people
at IGA Talent Management that are advocating
for my voice as well as my production team. So
that's also been very helpful. But you do let
go of a fair amount of control. But I guess to
clarify my question, I feel like when you release
a song, go with the interpretation of it. Yeah,
that's... And then I guess that's what I'm wondering
is like how releasing a song to the public and
releasing the, like the, and I don't mean like
the critical interpretation, but like the what
does it mean interpretation, right? So it's like...
you can mean something when you write a song
and then you can go out to somebody and it means
something totally else something else that you
didn't ever intend and might even disagree with
but how does that compare to sending it to a
label that then also can say those same things
and maybe also control like what gets put on
the record or not sure so i think that when I
first put out my first EP I was nervous about
the songs being misunderstood I suppose in a
way because I was so emotionally attached to
it but I had several conversations and I still
do even with some close friends to this day before
releasing music that just celebrates the joy
and the excitement behind the fact that your
song could be misinterpreted I think one of the
best examples is I've had people come up to me
after concerts and just tell me this is how your
song impacted me and I'm thinking to myself geez
I wasn't even thinking about that when I wrote
it. But it's so amazing that it was able to resonate
with you in that way. I think over time, like
initially, when I first started writing music,
it was more so for me. And now I've been able
to, I think, mature and also grow in a way where
I'm excited about how people can find themselves
in my music, regardless of the interpretation.
And I think the switch between doing that with
self distribution versus mass label distribution
is I think my mind tends to go towards what could
negatively happen in the hands of a label just
because you we've all heard the stories about
how sometimes major labels can take advantage
of artists x y and z or can portray artists in
a way that doesn't actually align with what they
want and yeah I think That journey has been up
and down for me, but it's definitely taught me
to go into any room with a certainty of who I
am and what I want from the music, and then also
to balance that with letting go and just allowing
things to be as they are. I definitely know what
you're talking about when it comes to the major
label story. I had some friends that were signed
to Elektra Records in the early 2000s, and they
ended up actually putting an album, their next
album out. And I remember going to the first
show after they... We're no longer on Elektra
Records. And I made this old black, this old,
like, t -shirt. It was just, like, a white t
-shirt and, like, Sharpie. And I had written
Neglectia Records. Oh, my God. And they loved
that. They thought that was awesome. I took a
photo from the stage. Look at this man wearing
the shirt. And then six months later, I think,
oh, that's when the Wea merger happened. And,
like, Warner, Elektra, and Atlantic all merged
into Wea. For 24 hours, it was like 5 ,000 bands
that didn't have a home. So I'm going to ask
you a slightly different version of the same
question, Elizabeth. You've managed a lot of
your own bands in the past. Have you found that
you usually manage your bands because you feel
like you have to? Or because you really want
to do that part of it too? Or do you think that...
You could give up that kind of, that aspect of
control at some point to somebody without it
feeling like you were losing part of what you've
been doing for so long. Because I know that you've
done a lot of your own booking and not just when
you're doing solo shows, but like with the groups
that you play with. And sometimes it's even probably
more than that, like herding cats and things
like that too. At what point do you want to be
able to focus solely on the music and kind of
stop doing some of that? And how much of that
do you really enjoy doing? It's a spectrum, right?
Sure, yeah, for sure. I think I've been in a
lot of different places with it. I'll back up
and say my... Growing up with my mom, who was
a formidable musician in the Tampa Bay area and
then went to Nashville and got a record deal,
I learned so much watching the way that she managed
her band and then that she managed herself. when
she decided my songs are good enough to go on
the country radio stations, and one of them made
it to VH1. And she did amazing things by always
having faith in herself and never backing down,
never accepting somebody that wasn't willing
to buy into what she had, because she was doing
amazing work at the time. And so I learned so
much from watching her in all those contexts.
And so then when I... I decided that I wanted
to start playing. I was taken on as a bass player.
So I was like the side woman in my first couple
of bands as an adult. And that was really great
because I could learn what it took to manage
a band from the people that were doing it. There
was a band in South Florida that I was in called
Surf Road Project. And Eric Alvar was the mandolin
player. He's now in New York City. And he's wonderfully
talented, but that was their family band. And
I learned a lot about how to book in festivals
and how to take a local band and start reaching
for more regional opportunities. And then I moved
up here and started playing with Ken and Virginia
Miller. And they were really enmeshed here in
the local scene. But again, I was the bass player.
I was the side person. Then I became the bass
player for Stranger Still and learned a whole
lot from all the musicians in that band. And
so in steps, in increments, I've learned from
some really brilliant people how to manage. And
so when the need arises, I just seem to have
an instinct for it. That being said, it's a lot
of extra work. Annabelle Lynn started out all
three of us doing all various jobs, whatever
we were good at. Social media was just coming
online. And so we were trying to navigate this
new landscape together and figuring it out without
the help of anybody that knew how to do it because
it was brand new. So we were really creative
musically, but also thinking about the graphic
elements, the photography, what we could do with
this trio of women and how we promoted our shows
became visual as well as word of mouth. There's
a really solid... feminist ideology at my core.
And being able to collaborate with those women
was a really huge opportunity for me as a creative
and as a human being. I'd always been in bands
with all these guys. And as had the other two
women in that band, Catherine Bell Long, Carrie
Perkins, and I collaborated. And we were like,
we had so many shared experiences, but we also
had so much shared knowledge. So management was
a shared responsibility. And we all pulled. Every
string, every connection, everything that we
could do to push ourselves. Eventually Carrie
Perkins left town and Holly Riley took her place
and Jillian Canning became our graphic designer.
But all these women that I've had the privilege
to work with, they all have these amazing niches
and connections. So it's building on that, but
then also being the keeper of the spreadsheets
and making sure that the transitions between
band members go smoothly. managing the social
media pages and all this stuff. So I've had to
figure out a lot of that. And being a teacher,
I can pull a lot of the experience that I've
had working in schools and various leadership
roles into my music life. So everything that
I've been doing is kind of lockstep. Everything
has worked really hand in hand. And at this point,
the bluegrass band that I'm working with, Raising
Cane, I do a lot of the managing for that, a
lot of the booking. And the other band that I'm
in that I play with a lot is... trio and it's
a another trio of women, and all three of us
are extensively connected and savvy in our own
ways. And so we're all able to share the workload
that comes with booking, writing sets, promoting,
archiving all of our stuff. So Jillian Canning
is our tech wizard. Kelly loves to do the booking.
There's some gigs that I'll book, some gigs that
she books, but Kelly Goddard of the New 76ers
is our guitar player and other vocalist, and
she does a fantastic job. When I'm tired. I wanna.
That's awesome. Yeah. So both of y 'all write
a lot of songs. And when I say that, I'm guessing
you probably write a lot of songs that you never
share with people. And I want to step, I want
to go backwards again. Okay. When did you decide
you, first, when did you be like, I love music?
Instead of just, I love this song or this band,
but I just love music. to being and then like
when did you take that a step further and be
like i want to write music i would say so in
middle school i was dropped off to school pretty
early and i would spend all my time in the piano
rooms just trying to perfect whatever latest
song i had heard and replicate it by ear and
looking back on it now i'd say that's when I
knew without knowing if that makes sense because
it was where I was putting the most time in,
in terms of my love for music. And then when
I took that a step further, like I had shared,
my family was really supportive of my music,
putting me into choirs and getting me theater
opportunities. And that translated when I got
into high school, doing more professional theater.
And then into college, I directed the gospel
choir for our university. But I would say it
wasn't until... After college, a few years that
I had graduated and just chilled out, I wasn't
doing music for anybody else. It was more just,
what do I want to say? And I had written music
when I was younger. My brother passed in 2010,
and I remember I wrote a song very shortly after
that. I was 12 at the time, but that was probably
the first song. I clearly remember writing, but
all of... the emotions and stuff that have come
with a lot of those stories behind the songs
I put out now were really written after I graduated
college. When we were talking about when I had
a moment of pause, that's like the same pause
that I think COVID gave a lot of people. It just,
okay, I don't have school. I'm not working as
much. And so what do I want to say? So do you
think that you... were really a lot more comfortable
performing like pieces of music by other people
growing up and then you became more of I want
to write my own songs oh yes I would for sure
were you writing songs and not sharing them with
people though before that yes when you were younger
like when did that start do you think I'd say
it started around 2010 just trying to unpack
some really heavy stuff but those yeah those
never left the gate was that the first song you
remember writing was the song for your brother
I want to say yes. There was like silly songs
I used to write with my friends. Actually, now
that I'm thinking about it, one of my best friends,
Peyton, and I wrote a song at a block party.
I want to say two years prior. So it would have
been like 2008, 2009. But it was a very silly
song. It was just like, oh, this is just for
fun. So I didn't take it seriously. But I guess
if I were to go all the way back at 2008, 2009
is when I started putting stuff on paper and
singing it out loud. Yeah. Cool, cool. What about
you, Elizabeth? When was the first, like, it
sounds like almost maybe the opposite experience
for you. Like you were almost maybe, and this
is maybe, this is a guess, but based on things
you've said already in this interview, I feel
like maybe you wrote songs before you even knew
who other artists were at some point. I think
I wrote songs before I knew I was writing songs.
That's awesome. It wasn't even a, yeah. So the
first. Time that I remember creating a melodic
idea that had lyrics was at a campground. It
was after hours. The festival had shut down for
the night. And there was another girl who was
my same age and we were friends. We would see
each other a couple of times a year. And her
parents were also in a band and they were performing
that weekend. And so she got up on stage. And
she started singing. I think we were both like
eight or nine. And I wrote poetry. I love to
write poems. And so I knew how to create a rhyme
scheme and to write something that meant something
to me. So she got up on stage and she started
singing this song that she wrote called Bye Bye
Baby Bye Bye. And I was so starstruck with what
she was doing there. And so I went home from
that festival and I wrote my own version of Bye
Bye Baby Bye Bye at eight years old. And I said
goodbye to dogs and grandparents and things.
So I was familiar with loss at that point in
life. And so it was a song about saying goodbye
to somebody that you loved and not romantically.
But that's what that meant to me at that point.
And it rested. And then I had this really aha
series of experiences in high school. where I
just knew that I would always be a musician,
that that was just part of the landscape of who
I was. And that chapter involved a punk rock
band, and it was actually another trio of women.
And we would get together. What was the name
of that band? I cannot say. Classified document.
That's right. It was never like officially decided
upon, but there was like... Oh, okay, okay. It
wasn't ever on a marquee. We never really got
a gig, but we played in my friend's bedroom.
She had a waterbed, and we had a drum kit, and
we would just bounce around this waterbed writing
really raunchy lyrics. Bikini Kill was our main
influence. Oh, hell yeah. What did the waterbed
do for the acoustics? of the room. It didn't
matter. It was a lot of bouncy bass lines back
in the day. Dude, that sounds so chaotic. That
sounds so fun. That's what I was doing in 98,
99, 10 years before you described your experience.
I feel like that's around the time. I think it's
a little earlier than the movie about the getaways
came out, which I think introduced that to a
whole new generation of women. Joan Jett was
obviously like a powerhouse already, but I feel
like a lot of people, that movie wasn't super
well received. But if you go back and watch it
now, and it's become a cult classic among a lot
of people I know that were like into... rebelliousness
and like not into the MTV top 40 thing and it
sounds like you definitely were not into the
MTV top 40 thing no in 1998 no I grew up in a
suburb of Tampa and there were like two really
great music stores and one of them had live punk
shows and they had all the underground punk recordings
so you could go in there and be like browsing
and everybody there was an expert Because that's
how it was in the 90s. Can you name those record
stores, at least, for the people? Oh, God, I
don't remember what they were. I would have to
look it up. I don't remember. One of the stores
I worked at in college had a location in Tampa
on Henderson. I don't know if that's one of them.
It was not on Henderson. No, it was... But they
had a lot of in -stores, but I don't know how
many punk ones. There was one on Lumpston. and
that was one of the main thoroughfares going
through Brandon. And the other one was on Highway
60, and it was next to a skate shop called The
Cove. Is Highway 60 Dale Mabry Highway? Possibly,
when it crosses over the bay and becomes Park
Clearwater. Maybe it was Vinyl Fever then, because
I think it was on Dale Mabry for a long time.
I don't remember the name of the store, but that's
where I got all my good CDs from. Like I, once
I got to the age where I could afford to buy
CDs, get a ride up to the store and go buy music
that my parents were just horrified by. That
is exactly what I did. That is all I wanted in
life was to have loud punk rock music blasting
out of my five disc CD changer. So what? What
was it that really got your, like, what were
your, like, favorite bands, like, around 12,
13? What was, Bikini Kill is one you mentioned,
but what else were you listening to around that
time when you were first, like, getting rides
to the record store? In sixth grade is when I
remember Kurt Cobain committing suicide. And
that really, like, my babysitters would play
me Metallica and Nirvana and all this really
amazing, like, Ozzy Osbourne, like, hard rock
stuff. And so in sixth grade, like, that made
headlines. MTV was a big deal. And so I remember
just getting really into grunge rock in middle
school. And then when I got into high school
was, like, okay, like, that felt very mainstream.
So punk rock became... my passion. Dead Kennedys
were hugely awesome for me. There was a lot of
ska starting to happen, so Less Than Jake and
Sublime, of course, like everybody had the three
Sublime albums blasting in their car and driving
to... I used to mow the lawn to that self -titled
record all the time. Yeah, all that was really
great. There was a... NoFX was really pivotal.
Yeah, but the Bikini Kill... Oh, and then Ani
DiFranco, too. We discovered Ani DiFranco and...
That was really fun to blast that. My mom would
come in and be like, this is folk, and I'm happy
you're listening to something with some acoustic
integrity, but it's so angry. Acoustic integrity
is crazy. That's the old mom. Go mom. Wow. She
wasn't into distortion pedals, but the punk band
I was in was really. She never got over Dylan
going electric. No, she has a dog named Dylan
now. If that tells you anything about her passion
for Bob Dylan. She got over it. What about you,
Ina? What are some of your early music influences?
And if I feel like I skip over a question, like
jumping back and forth, feel free to back up
and answer one before I move forward. Okay, who
were my early music influences? Honestly, as
she was talking about it, I was thinking about
how a lot of my music discovery, especially in
middle school, happened on Pandora Radio. And
I think because of the age that I came up, lot
of our music was digitized so again that probably
plays into why I can't name people as easily
because I think you've the way music has been
distributed in my time has been more geared towards
the song and the product and not as much towards
the artist but when I think about artists that
come up Eminem was like probably one of the first
artists whose album I memorized like top to bottom
like I remember printing the lyrics to Not Afraid
and riding on the school bus and just to memorize
them. Who are some other artists that I was listening
to? John Legend. I really loved his sound. And
there was, maybe not an artist, but there was
a station that used to play in the car a lot,
96 .3. It's over in Minneapolis, and they did
a lot of R &B music, so that's what led me to
go down the R &B pathway. Yeah, I think, I listen
to some cheesy 90s R &B growing up. But I really
got into soul music in the early to mid 2000s
during that kind of revival. And then I went
back and listened to a lot of older stuff. But
like Sharon Jones and the Dap Kings. I was blessed
to get to see her like probably half a dozen
times. She pulled me up on stage a couple of
times. No way. Serious. One time she serenaded
me to how do I let a good man down. And I'm pretty
sure it cursed me for 10 years. Okay. But it
created this whole new soul revival for me. Yeah.
Where I went back and got into everything from
James Brown to just everything. To old jazz,
like Etta James and Nina Simone, to Ella Fitzgerald,
to listening to Booker T. And then eventually
I started listening to more blues stuff, too.
And I got into this band that was like a blues
revival band from North Mississippi called the
North Mississippi All -Stars, who put out an
album in 2005. It was a live recording of their
Bonnaroo performance with R .L. Burnside sitting
on stage. And I just, I was hooked. I was hooked.
And it also featured Chris Robinson from Black
Crows. He came on and did a song. And for a long
time, I rebelled against southern -sounding music
for various personal, family stuff, whatever.
But it was like, once I got into, and I became,
started with Motown and became a Stax guy. And
once I got into that southern soul sound, it's
what brought me into some of my favorite music
to this day. It's really interesting, like, the
different pathways, but they all, I feel like
a lot of the time they all lead the same place.
Well, they brought us all here. Yeah, exactly.
I'm curious about, so having grown up in Minneapolis.
What, it just seems like it would be such a different
music vibe because of the proximity to Motown.
There's so much great stuff that came out of
Detroit. And hearing you talk about your musical
influences, I'm like, wow. Yeah, you can't forget
Prince, absolutely. And the Jacksons, and yeah.
Yeah, like. I feel like Minneapolis, especially
while you were growing up, was really celebrating
Prince, too. There was that Super Bowl performance
that I've talked about before on this podcast,
and I talk about it way more than anybody should
talk about anything. But yeah, that's a really
great question. Minneapolis is a very different
place than where either of us, I think, grew
up. Yeah, for certain. I would say that, honestly,
I didn't take advantage of the music scene in
Minneapolis when I was there. A lot of what I
was doing with music was through theater or through
school, mostly. And so I think if I were to go
back down, or rather up there, because they're
all the way up north, I'd be able to explore
a lot more. But I do know from friends that are
still up there in the music scene that it's...
It's a very supportive community, I think, compared
to bigger cities. When you think about music,
you think about Atlanta, New York, L .A. It's
almost an oversaturated market. And what I've
found coming down to Tallahassee and even in
D .C. in certain pockets is because it's a smaller
community, but still with so much history and
so much talent that it's easier to navigate and
it's more community based. And from what I've
heard from my friends there, it's very much like
that in Minneapolis as well. So I guess. To back
up to what Elizabeth was asking, I feel like
there was... It's just what I heard when she
asked it. Sure. I feel like what you probably
would hear on the radio growing up versus what
I would hear on the radio growing up versus...
And I don't know if you even really listened
to the radio much growing up. Pretty so often.
But I feel like the stations are probably very
different. They're very focused on different
genres in those locations. Here we had a lot
of... top 40 country and then like new reed was
from here so there was a lot of that new rock
sound and then bradenton tampa like that's a
lot more i mean that the further that's where
florida is like the most southern i feel is like
central like tampa is like the edge of that but
there's a lot more of the i feel like folksy
type music and roots music and things like that
where and then Minneapolis, I would imagine some
of the top stations were Seoul and RMB stations.
Yeah, I can only speak honestly to 96 .3. I think,
as we were discussing earlier, once I find my
vein of what I like, sometimes I usually tunnel
vision in. But I have my 10 -year high school
reunion this year, and I'll be back up in Minneapolis
in August, and we'll be able to speak much more
to the radio. But I can't do that answer any
justice. I'm sorry. I'm thinking about how much
this has changed, because there were regional
preferences and differences. if you back up 30
years ago where the internet made it so easy
to like, just, this is what, this is the canned.
playlist of what everybody's going to be listening
to no matter where you go so there were more
distinctions and there probably are i don't know
i'm this no i think you're really on to something
hardcore here but yeah so keep going and then
i have something to add i think that yeah like
where radio used to serve this function to reflect
what's happening within the community right now
it's the community that is the reflection piece
of that and it's really I'm thinking about this
from a more of an ethnomusicology point of view
but The music that I've seen grow here is very
roots -based, and we get a lot of what we have
because the universities are here. So there's
a lot of jazz infusion. There's a lot of really
incredible classically trained players that kind
of sprinkle in to what's happening in the folk
scene. But then we get these world -class artists,
and it's so special and it's so unique how different
locations that I go to have different versions
of the same song, and then with that are influenced
by their roots. and the traditions of the people
that have been living there for generations.
And in this age of mass consumption, you can
find anything that you're looking for with a
streaming service and pretty much the same canned
radio station broadcast, whether you're in Austin
or Tampa or L .A. wherever you go. But what's
happening now is that sets us all apart regionally
is what people are creating and producing in
their own communities and their local coffee
houses and local bars, scenes like that. I was
just thinking about how different the experience
would be going to somewhere. So here in Tallahassee,
we have a really amazing place called the Blue
Tavern. And we get a lot of people from the community
performing there, but a lot of people that are
passing through, they hear about it. It's a listening
room. And so what happens in that listening room
is reflective of who's here and who's passing
through. And with that, the generational passing
down of music traditions that have existed here
has really enriched that thread. And I'm always
curious when I go to other cities and other countries,
other places, what are people listening to? What
are the standards? What are the songs that everybody
at the local poorhouse are sick to death of because
every single cover band in town always does that
song. And so I'm just wondering, I was just curious
when I asked that question, like what are those
regional differences in Minneapolis? And it might
be hard to answer that if you're just kind of
getting your feet wet here. I would say it's
definitely hard to answer because I'm still getting
my feet wet, but I'm so glad you brought that
up because you're absolutely right. And to be
honest, it's not something I've thought of. How
does region... influence what's most popular,
which is kind of, of course, duh, region is going
to geography, it's going to impact. I do think
it's influencing it less and less in a way that...
Nice. So I do think it's influencing it less
and less because of precisely what you were talking
about. I think you hit the nail on the head.
I think you're on to something really important
here. And I'm going to take it to a biological
concept for a minute to make a comparison. I
want to say I don't believe in like cultural
evolution or anything like that necessarily.
But I do think this is applicable here because
the same thing happens in like a population of
an animal, okay? And I'll use the Galapagos Islands
as this is where Darwin discovered the mechanism
for evolution was on the Galapagos Islands. And
it was because the Galapagos Islands used to
be one piece of land and then they got separated
by water. And so... all of a sudden there were
these like little differences on each of the
islands and over time without interaction between
the islands they formed different species of
finches and turtle tortoises and all these things
that you noticed the one of the most famous examples
was like there were finches that had elongated
beaks that could get into the shells and there
was finches that had more rounded beaks to to,
I believe, eat nuts and berries off of trees
that only grew on that particular island. And
not only that, there were trees that only grew
on this island and didn't grow on that island.
And they're all in a very small area. But these
differences and the isolation, and I think the
isolation is what we're talking about here, is
what created the different species, okay? And
if you want to take that comparison of different
genres of music, There's a lot of people out
there that would argue genre doesn't even exist
really anymore in popular music. What's being
played on the radio, the way it's being produced,
it's almost all the same. Hip -hop and country
are almost the same thing. Or top 40, right?
In a large population, people still do listen
to the radio. I think there are people that don't
have... filter that a lot of the people that
we probably associate with have so they end up
just like getting whatever is fed to them and
they're happy with it that's fine but in that
world genre doesn't really exist anymore and
it's because I think everybody's listening to
everything everybody's listening to everyone
and then this brings up like kind of what we
were talking about earlier were like how much
do you listen to when you're recording or writing
music or like how much do you consciously take
into like account what you're like i'm writing
a bluegrass song or whatever it might an r b
song or whatever it is or does it just become
that and the most artists it just becomes that
but they try and limit it by what their influence
is at the time that they're writing it or recording
it and so we find artists intentionally isolating
themselves from listening to the bigger picture
sometimes in a way to escape the fact that everybody
has the same syndicated radio show from Austin.
The fact that everybody has access to bands in
Venezuela or the Ukraine or Russia or... And
I don't think this is bad or good. This is just
how it is. I'm not trying to put any value judgment
on any of this. But what I think is that you
hit the nail on the head. The internet is the
reason that we see regional music becoming a
thing that goes from this is what we are to being
this is something we have to preserve. Because
I think 25 years ago... You could travel around
the country and go to a local bar and hear very...
They might all be cover bands, but they're covering
a bunch of different stuff. And now, you go listen
to a classic rock station, they're going to play
the same 40 songs in every country, be serious
in XM and Clear Channel, own all of it. And I
wonder how much that affects what those bands
are playing in the local bars. I wonder how much
that affects... what the kids are growing up
listening to when they have parents that don't
turn them on to amazing music and just have the
radio playing in the car on the way to school.
And my point is that I think you hit the nail
on the head like 100%. The internet is both this
magical thing that allows artists to get their
stuff out there to anybody that wants to hear
it. across the world including this i've had
people in new zealand listening to this podcast
i think i know who it is but shout out to them
but my point is is that it's a double -edged
sword too because with that the things that make
us the places that we grow up the places that
we writing songs about the environment that we're
in and being isolated in that environment and
only having the tools And I'm going to stop rambling
here in just a second. But the last thing that
I want to mention is a common theme that's come
up on this podcast over and over is that constraint
can actually really make art thrive. And having
too many tools at your disposal and maybe having
too many influences, too many possibilities can
stunt creativity in the same way that like having
too many choices on a menu might make you unhappy
that you didn't pick something else. But I really
wonder like, How is it that you both intentionally
constrain yourself when you're going through
the process of recording, writing? What is it
that you do, Ina? I'll just start with you. Especially
right now, when you say you're writing these
25 songs for 25, what... What are like, okay,
I can only do it with, what are the rules? Do
you have rules that you follow? Are there constraints?
What are the kind of limits that you place upon
yourself? And I think part of that is, okay,
I'm going to go to this thing every week that
helps preserve the kind of music that I grew
up listening to. Or it could be, I'm going to
isolate myself completely. Or it could be like
when the Red Hot Chili Peppers recorded, by the
way, and they were like, we're going to listen
to the Beatles for a year and then make an album.
I don't know if that's what they did, but that's
what it sounds like. I think the beautiful thing
about 25 for 2025 is that there are no rules
and that's really how I wanted to approach it.
It is about going on to YouTube or Spotify and
finding different sounds that are actually way
outside of my comfort zone. So it's been very
different than how I would traditionally write
music. So the rules for 2025 is just to create
more. and to create outside of my comfort zone.
And like I said, that's very different than how
I would sit down in a room if I'm working on
a project that I really want to tell a story
with. 2025, the project has been more scattered,
more all over the place. But I actually wanted
to circle back to what you were saying about
radio, if it's okay for a moment. Absolutely.
Radio was one of the first places that I thought
to go back into to find new music. And of course,
like any tool, be it radio, be it DSPs, those
distribution service providers, Apple Music,
Spotify, so on. They both have their positives
and negatives. Any tool can be a resource. It
can also be a constraint, as you were talking
about. And so it's interesting because the more
we talk about radio and the more I dive into
it myself, I don't think that's the place that
I need to be really going to discover new music.
Because you're right, they're sticking with this.
same 40 50 songs because one their market is
calling for it all everything is monetized in
the music world and more so than ever it feels
like now but two it's yeah I'm just I'm wondering
in your opinion and both of you guys what do
you think would be the best way to find new music
and why isn't it radio and why maybe isn't also
not internet what do you guys think I'll give
you my answer. Yeah. And it's probably just because
it's how I did it. But you can still do it this
way. Go to your local record store. Find out
who works there that's into the same shit that
you're into. And then go there and ask them what
you should be listening to every week. We trust
an algorithm to give us our movie and music and
television recommendations. And I think that's
crazy. I think those can be useful tools. Really
itching for something new and like you you're
like I want something like this then that's cool
I think it's a really great tool, but usually
the music that I end up really liking is music
that I Don't fully understand or grasp right
away and might even be a little bit like turned
off by and I deep like not just songs I like
but like talking like Frank Zappa level of appreciation
like you're you know going to Frank Zappa expecting
to find a new pop song that you can just sing
along to on the way home from work on a Friday
the third time you heard it. I guess is my point.
There's different types of music for different
moods, different whatever. I think we have to
trust each other more than we have been. I think
we've let the billionaires take over every aspect
of everything we do. It used to be you at least
talked to a person if you got takeout because
you called them. Yeah, that's so true. At least
had a little bit of human interaction. Now you
can literally order a pizza on an app, go pick
it up from a box by scanning a QR code and not
talk to a single person. Which is tragic. It
really is. Because what if one of those people
was listening to something that you... Yeah.
We miss out on those human connection moments.
Sometimes that might be how you find your favorite
band. That's what I'm getting at, is it might
be how you find your favorite movie or your favorite
book or your favorite band or not. But I don't
know, man. I think we've trusted the algorithm
way too much. Yeah, I think it's time to take
a trip down to that record store, go find some
parking and get into it. I would agree with that.
And as you guys were both hashing out your answers,
I was thinking over the years, like, Anytime
that I've wanted to improve my craft, I always
go find somebody who's playing it better, who's
doing the thing that I aspire to do, who's writing
lyrics that just hit me in ways that I need to
process before I fully grasp. And so I've been
really fortunate to just always be able to find
somebody that can really help me to grow. A conversation
that I always have with those people is, who
are you listening to? Who are your favorite people?
A lot of the questions that you've been asking
us, I can hear myself asking those questions
of my guitar teacher, my vocal teacher. I've
sat down to write songs with people and... And
it just comes up naturally in conversation when
you're working with other musicians of, yeah,
I do this thing. Like I heard this person do
it. And now it's become like a really essential
thread to what I do and asking your mentors.
Who has helped them along the way or who are
they listening to right now? And it's amazing
to tease out. So I worked with this really incredible
guitar player in town and vocalist. Chris Sebersad
is his name. I didn't realize this going into
it, but he listens to so much soul music and
all these like church singers. I just got turned
on to this whole genre of music because I asked
that question. And a lot of it is music from
the area of the country where you're from. I
started looking at YouTube videos that he recommended,
and a lot of it was church music from Detroit
and Chicago. And what powerful music. And it's
really cool that he's brought some of that to
Tallahassee. And Rachel Hillman is somebody else
that I've collaborated with and learned from
and written with over the years. And her influences
are so broad and so rich. And she grew up in
South Florida as well. And so there's this really
strong influence of like Cuban music. If you
live in South Florida, like you cannot go anywhere
to eat or you can't like flick through the radio
dial without hearing some kind of music, either
Cuban music, Mexican music. It's just there.
It's part of the fabric of what it is to be from
that area. was influenced by a lot of those rhythms
and those have permeated into the music that
she creates and that she's brought here. I grew
up in a church and our pastor was from Spain.
And so we did a lot of, and he did mass in Spanish.
And so we ended up with a lot of Hispanic people
attending our church and our services and the
school where I went. And so I never realized
because there was so much bluegrass in my home,
but I never realized how much Hispanic music
had an influence on me. But now that I'm teaching
music in elementary school, like so many of those
folk songs are coming back to me. And so now
I want to know who was recording those songs.
Like I heard them from church, but now I want
to hear Tito Puente singing. And there's just,
there's so much when you really start to take
a step back and you think about what's come through
the pipeline of folk music and just the human
to human culture that we transmit without even
thinking about it. That's how I find new artists
is from talking to people. Another way that I
find new artists is by looking at concert bills,
who's playing at these different regional festivals.
And so if you look at who's on the bill for the
Tampa Bay Blues Festival and Jazz Fest, and you
can get turned on to so many new artists just
by glancing and then doing a quick Spotify search
or whatever your streaming service is, or YouTube,
and finding, oh my gosh, like this is incredible.
Or maybe not. Maybe I'll keep looking until I
find somebody I like. But we do have so much
readily accessible, but nothing subs for loving
a sound that somebody that you admire and finding
out who influenced them to make that sound, I
think is one of the richest ways that I've had
to discover new music. I just want to do a quick
plug. Our next episode is going to be with a
member of Cedric Burnside's band. And he just
played Jazz Fest three weeks ago over in New
Orleans. So just a little plug for the next episode.
If you're enjoying this talk, check out next
week's episode as well. It'll be with Cody Shade
Harrell from Cedric Burnside's band. So when
you guys are... You guys. When the two of you.
When you two people... No. When you people...
No. All right. But seriously, when you're looking
at what you want. your next song to sound like
how much of a conscious thing does genre or like
region or am i i know some of your songs like
clearly are influenced by different regions elizabeth
like i'm pointing at like looking at you like
the listeners can hear that but i know some of
your songs are like very like regionally influenced
Whether you're going to some of your Irish roots
or like doing kind of more of a flamenco thing.
Is that a conscious thing when you do that? Or
do you think that just happens and then you embrace
it once you notice it? Yeah, I was thinking about
this question when we were talking earlier about
how the shift might happen if you're writing
on a label and with that in mind. And I don't.
I write for me. I write 100%. from whatever my
soul wants to sing at that time. And there definitely
have been times where I'm like, oh, I need a
song for this band. But usually I just go through
my trove and I find something that works for
whatever group needs some new original music.
So I write from different places. A lot of times
I'll come up with my lyrics first, but that's
not a hard and fast rule. Sometimes I'll wake
up with a melodic idea and just start humming,
and some kind of rhyme scheme comes into mind,
and the lyrics write themselves. Other times
I am just... wrestling with words like every
day until something materializes that's something
that I feel comfortable performing in front of
other people. And I always try my songs out with
friends or my bandmates before performing them
on stage. I don't know that I've ever just...
gone up cold and performed a song that would
be really brave and I don't know that I'm there
with with anything yet I just I love to experiment
with my friends and see what the reaction is
first and then take it to a jam and and then
once I've got things polished then I'll be comfortable
to perform I'm actually performing a new song
on Friday that I just finished Sunday. Oh, yeah?
Yeah, and I'm really excited about that. I played
it for one person, for my friend Barry Sager,
and he didn't run away. Great sign. You want
to play it? Right now? Congratulations, though.
That's so cool. I would definitely say I can
agree with you that I try to run them. by friends.
I would say I haven't had the opportunity to
perform them live or even over, I should do it
over FaceTime now that I'm thinking about it,
but I usually, if I ever have a demo, I have
a small circle of folks where I'm just like,
check this out, let me know what you think. But
I think that's so brave to do it that way. The
same question, but I know you've worked with,
your music, it feels like you work a lot with
your producer to create a certain sound. Yeah.
Sometimes that producer is you, sometimes it's
not. What is the difference between the intention
behind a song when you're self -producing versus
when you're working in a studio with somebody
else? Sure, so I think the intention actually
is the same across all boards. It's more so if
this song... calls for something that I know
that I can't sonically provide. A lot of the
times the music, much like you were saying, will
start with a hum. I'll wake up and I'll just
be like, oh, this is stuck in my head. And sometimes
the lyrics will follow. Sometimes it'll take
days. Sometimes it'll take minutes. But I know
that if I want to create a certain sound and
I'm just like, okay, I can't do this on the piano
alone and I'm thinking of different elements,
that's when it's time to bring in the producers.
So, similar to what Elizabeth was just talking
about, when... Because I feel like your music
definitely transcends genres, too. Yeah, it's
all over the place. Yes. Do you find that...
And this kind of goes back to you, too, Elizabeth.
Maybe you're not like, I'm going to sit down
and write an Irish song. But does sometimes,
like, maybe your soul feel a little bit Irish?
Or... Ina, does your soul feel like, maybe I
just, I am feeling soul music right now. And
that's, I feel like the best way to express myself.
Or I really want to tell a story and a folk song
might be the best way to do that. Or one thing
I noticed in your music is it's almost like sometimes
you'll write a folk song and put soul production
behind it. Or do more of a soul song and then
add some more like folksy production behind it.
So how much of that? intentional how much of
that does that not matter I guess at a certain
point I act there's this kind of magic that happens
with songwriting and I think it's true with joke
writing too a hundred percent true in fact it's
always in my experience talking to other songwriters
It's pretty much the same thing. When something
just sticks, you have that alignment feeling?
Yeah, like you might have to work out the exact
wording. Sure. You might have to work out the
rhythm. But the core of the song hits you. The
fundamental. And then you can't, it's almost
like you have to do something with it. You can't
let it go. You have to get it out of you somehow.
No, I would say to answer your question, I write
much like Elizabeth writes. I think... For obviously
for 25, for 2025, it's very different. But for
my own music, a lot of it is just meeting the
need of what I want to say in the moment. And
of course, because a lot of what I listen to
is more folk, is more R &B. It's what's programmed
in my head. So naturally, that's what comes out.
But I would say in terms of that aha moment,
I'm not thinking, aha, I'm going to write a country
hit or aha, I'm going to write an X, Y and Z
hit. It's just more aha, the story is out. So
I'm going to kind of shift gears a little bit
here. Yeah, let's do it. First of all, I feel
like I could talk to you all for hours. And I
don't want to take up hours of your time right
now because that's not what we planned on. Next
time. But I do want to talk about a couple of
themes that come up on the podcast pretty frequently.
So I think one thing that I have found that's
common among a lot of people, We have this fire
inside of us. Or darkness is an acceptable way
of thinking about it. Where that comes from,
I think, can be very different. Some people I've
talked to had really stable upbringings, but
maybe had anxiety internally growing up. Some
people I've talked to had horribly unstable and
chaotic upbringings, but maybe still full of
love, but still chaotic. and not the best environment
for a child to grow up in. And then some people
have had a combination. Maybe one was caused
by the other. But I do think it's pretty uncommon,
and I don't want to say unheard of or it never
happens, that an artist is, I live, I'm a perfectly
well -balanced human. Is there such a thing?
There's people that pretend they are, at least.
Or there's, I think, part of it is just being
complex enough to create. art right for sure
being being a complex enough human that where
there's all different strokes to move the world
there's people that that need to be more mechanically
minded there's people that need to be more i
think the creative minded people are usually
cursed with something there's usually something
there that causes that it doesn't just come out
of stability and great being surrounded by grace
that being said And I think you've touched on
this a little bit. I feel like what first inspired
you to start writing songs was a tragedy in your
life. Do you feel like that is the turning point?
Or do you feel like you've had other tumultuous
experiences in your life and that was the turning
point? Do you feel like it was, oh no, everything's
been pretty stable, but I'm anxious? or do you
feel like no that was really that was the catalyst
and then after that i saw the world differently
what was like what is where i don't hear you
arguing with me that darkness exists so where
does it come where does it come from with you
you think whatever you're comfortable sharing
but yeah of course i think when we grow up in
a household we don't realize the darkness is
around us until we've had time away from it and
without going into it too deep i would say i
had a very lucky childhood. There were a lot
of things that even some of my close friends
didn't experience in terms of stability. But
there was also a lot that happened in our household.
The 2010 event was a really big one, but it was
not the first big one that happened in the household
that shaped who I am, I would say, as an artist,
shaped maybe the fire. But in terms of how that's
translated into my music, I think This is so
cool. Now I'm just having an aha moment. It wasn't
until that stillness that I felt after graduating
college and sitting down, until I was able to
come to peace with my own grief, to come to peace
with the chaos that I was able to write. And
so I think a lot of my music is sad, but I try
to approach it from a different angle, from an
angle of after the fact, as opposed to in the
middle of. I don't know if that answers the question.
No, I think that's, it's approaching it. Yeah,
in a sense. I would say adoption is a big one.
So I was adopted from China at the height of
the One Child Policy Act. And that's something
that I'm navigating emotionally now as an adult,
just thinking about, geez, like. I'm getting
older. I want to be a parent someday. And I'm
thinking, like, I've never met my birth mom.
And I don't think there's a great chance that
I'll ever be able to. And then my parents split
when I was in college over a very long divorce.
And so the idea of home and then family members
and close friends passing and grief have just
been embedded into my music and my experiences.
And so I would say grief, adoption, fear of loss
that has happened are central themes of my music.
Do you think that some people can struggle with
those things and they never really turn into
internal struggles necessarily? They remain,
but sometimes things like that can develop anxiety
and depression. Oh, yeah. Are those things that
you struggle with too? For sure. Or has it been
mostly external? No, I would say up until college
and especially during college and even after
my anxiety. was very high like again when you
have moments to pause a lot of things hit you
sometimes in a good way and sometimes in a not
so great way and so i've i have definitely gone
through major anxiety to like points where I
was like on the bathroom floor and couldn't move
for hours at a time type of anxiety. So yes,
the darkness definitely manifested and made itself
at home before I was able to really work through
it in a way that's translated into my music.
So do you find that writing music is a way to
channel some of that anxiety and some of that
depression into something? that can be more positive
and productive. Yeah, definitely. Actually, I
wrote one of the songs on my EP back in 2017,
years before I had even thought about putting
out music during an anxiety attack. And I remember
just the trust fall that I had to do with myself
to get those words out and onto paper was a huge
help. And one that I didn't even realize was
a huge help until after the fact. But yeah, music
definitely has been a huge outlet for me. in
terms of validating my own experiences, in terms
of practicing saying them out loud, too. Growing
up, do you think performing... It's weird, a
lot of people that don't perform... The idea
of performing is like the most anxiety inducing
thing in the world to them. And then people I
know with anxiety are like, no, man, I can get
up there. Did you find like performing to be
anxiety inducing as a kid or? When I first started,
yes. Yeah, without a doubt. But again, a lot
of the stuff that I was performing, actually
everything I was performing was not my own music.
So there was less nerves around it. But I would
say a whole new wave of anxiety hit when I was
getting to perform my own stuff for the first
time. So it really sounds like that fire has
been both internal and external. Oh, for sure.
How would you say, other than music, what were
some useful things that you did to tackle? And
I don't think it ever goes away, but it does
get better and easier with certain things. And
it sounds like you've made a lot of progress.
You talked about a lot of that stuff in the past
tense. Yes. How did you work through a lot of
it other than music? Was there things that you
did that... you thought were really helpful that
might help other people? Yeah, absolutely. To
be honest, I think it had to smack me in the
face. There was a point in time where I was just
really anxious to the point where I didn't want
to be here anymore. And I think to get to that
level, I'd never want or wish that for anyone.
But sometimes that is that smack that you need
to be like, yo, I need to take a step back and
assist. I need to look at everything going on.
And so for me, that moment was really a big turning
point. And what that looked like moving forward
was the cliche stuff. And I hate to say it, but
this is what worked for me is just like creating
a morning routine, setting more firm boundaries
and really sticking by them. And then also a
big thing for me was taking a dopamine break,
like thinking about all the ways that I was coping
to get through anxiety that were actually harming
me. more than helping it was more of a comfort
than it was a solution and so being really firm
with myself in that and then what else being
selective about who I talked to in these moments
I think it's really easy when you're spiraling
to try to grab hold of anything and that's certainly
not the answer by any means learning to say no
is really important man yeah Absolutely. Those
are some of the things in my toolbox that I still
try to maintain in terms of routine, selectivity
of who I open up to, and continuing to write
music too. Thanks for sharing all that with us.
Yeah, of course. Thank you for asking. Thank
you, for real. Elizabeth, with you, I know a
lot of your songs are personal. Do you think
that your struggles mostly, your fire mostly
came internally, or do you think... I feel we
all have things we have. Life is hard, y 'all.
I don't want to downplay the tragedies that everybody
goes through, but there's also some people have
harder upbringings and things like that than
others. And I think we can all find faults in
our parents and things like that. We can do that
all day long. And that's part of what helps us
be better people and be better parents. How much
of your struggles do you think are more internalized
versus the things that have happened in your
life? Not necessarily just your upbringing, but
tragedies that have happened around you. I feel
like we've all lived in particularly strange
times. From the nature of your adoption to the
place that we're living now. There's just a lot
of weird things going on with the powers that
be in this world. Everybody down to... So when
you're saying that, I was thinking about this
little teacup. I went to Italy a couple years
ago, and I got some espresso, and the cup was
so... cute. It was one of those teeny tiny little
espresso shot cups. And it said, may you live
in interesting times. And I thought that was
so darling. I had my son take a picture of me
drinking this. Come to find out that is a curse.
It was just a foreshadowing. Oh my gosh. Yeah,
that was back in, oh, I don't remember, 21. I
think it was after COVID. But I don't know any
other way to write than to channel and process
the things that have. put scuff on my soul. And
just the friction, if you think about where pearls
come from, it is nothing short of a tumultuous
journey that garners that treasure. And I feel
like my songs, the ones that I'm the most proud
of are a process and they're not done. And sometimes
the rewrites happen after I've learned some really
personal lessons. And I'm grateful for every...
tragedy every heartache and also the really happy
moments because i've got some really joyous songs
and and that's its own kind of that's an upper
and it takes you out of the norm is that harder
to write about i was just about to ask that Is
it harder to write a happy song? I think songs
are just, songs just happen. I'm like mentally
going through my catalog. How many happy songs
do I have? I think that I, sometimes the melodies
are happy and the content is like something kind
of foreboding or some kind of like. Like Born
in the USA? Yeah, I didn't write that. So I can't
speak to that. But I do know that sometimes I'll
write a hopeful song. almost as a fantasy to
escape if there's something really tragic happening,
or if I'm just imagining what's going to come
out on the other side of this really difficult
time. So sometimes I can get really inspired
by happiness as an aspiration. I think if we're
speaking really honestly, like depression is
something that I've ridden the waves of over
the years. And sometimes I can write really profound
stuff when I'm in a really sad place. I have
this I've got this really unique relationship
with my mom where she was writing a lot of songs
when I was a kid. And it was sometime really
early and when my kids were babies, she came
over to visit and she saw an original song that
I was writing. And it was a murder ballad that
I'd written about infidelity resulting in somebody
getting shot. And she looked at this and she's,
this is why I don't write songs anymore. This
is so dark. And I don't even know where that
song came from because I had nothing happening
in my life at that point. But there was just
that having young kids and being insecure in
this very young marriage thing. So it wasn't
based on true life events, but there was some
deep seated anxiety and also depression, desperation
in that. And in no way, shape or form was it
an open letter to my husband. husband, about
anything. But I think sometimes the imagination
can go to places. Sometimes you'll watch a movie
or you'll read somebody's biography and be really
taken with the story. A lot of times I'll read
poetry and since there's no melody with it. It's
wide open for me to lift ideas or just visual
schemes that I have. Emily Dickinson is tremendously
powerful to me in her writing. And she lived
alone. She was a hermit for many years. And some
of her most prolific writing came out of that.
And at the moment of this interview, I'm living
alone in the woods. And so I think I'm in my
Emily Dickinson era. But this has been many decades
in the making because she's been so profoundly
influential. influential. Some of my favorite
songs that I've written were after just pouring
over a lot of her poetry, and then I'll just
get really inspired. And so I think it comes
from just all kinds of different threads. And
sometimes it's the heartache. Sometimes it's
processing a heartbreak that happened 10 years
ago, but you still remember the way you felt
and the way he smelt and the way that everything
was in that moment when you decided it was over
or whatever theme of the song was. And I think
back to So many experiences that I have gratitude
for, whether they be good or bad, there's really
no place for judgment when you're making art
out of them. And I think that is such an essential
thread for all of us as we're grappling with
the society that we're living in now, that art
is truly this place where we can celebrate our
humanity away from judgments and opinions and
threads and discussion boards. What we create
is something higher than we know. One of my dear
friends, Catherine Bell Long, she passed two
years ago due to brain cancer, but she and I
created music and toured for about 10 years and
talked extensively about writing, and sometimes
we would write alongside each other. And towards
the end, her last five years alive, she had this
tremendous brain tumor that was taking over and
pushing on all these parts of her brain. And
we didn't know that was happening, but that was
what was happening. And the result of that intense
pressure was a folk opera that she wrote. And
so I think that that's a testament to some of
the greatest duress that a human can go through
can garner tremendous art. Now, do you have to
have a brain tumor? or anxiety or depression
to do these things. No, but when you do, there's
some kind of... portal to your empathy and your
humanity that opens up and I think that to be
an artist you have to be willing to push everything
away and just get in touch with that kind of
ephemeral place because it's in there and you
can let it get really clouded up with a lot of
external forces but to connect with your art
and to make something that that connects with
other people like it needs to come from I feel
my art needs to come from that kind of place.
It almost sounds like the way an actor who might
not have alcoholism might approach playing the
role of somebody with alcoholism, right? And
the reason I say that is like what you're saying
is even if you don't have anxiety or depression
or you're not even struggling with that at the
moment, you have to put yourself in the place
to where you can at least, Be compassionate about
certain aspects of the human condition that allow
you to be vulnerable enough to really put it
out there and say something real. Do you think
that you're... I don't think it's... How do I
say this? If I'm wrong, tell me. I would love
to know what the right answer is. I feel like
I don't know the right answer either, which is
why I'm stuttering. But what I was going to say
is that I think... For some songwriters, it may
not be as personal. And this is from the outside
looking, and I can't confirm this, but you listen
to some music and you're just like, this was
made for a club. You know what I mean? The lyrics
when I'm listening to it, it's not even that
it doesn't resonate with me, it's just what really
went on behind writing this down. So I think
to her point... It's an important aspect to be
able to tap into that darker side you were talking
about, to write empathetic music, to write in
an honest way. But sometimes I think that looks
different for everybody. Yeah, I'm thinking about
B .J. Barham's panel with Chuck Reese at Word
of South, which I think, Elizabeth, you were
at, where he was talking about a lot of the times
he's writing songs that aren't about him. He's
from a band called American Aquarium, and I've
known him a little bit for years and years, but
he was talking about how every song he writes,
even if it is from another perspective, he has
to put some lines in there. And I guess what
I'm wondering is, first of all, how much do you
write music that is maybe from a character's
point of view or something like that? Because
I think that's different than writing, like,
a song for the club. But also, like, maybe the
same level of impersonality. And I think that's
what I was getting at, where it's like, you have
to be able to relate to these things, even if
you don't personally suffer with them. But first
of all, how often do y 'all write songs from,
like, a different point of view other than your
own? Or if ever? And then when you do that, if
you do that, like, how personal do you try to
make that? I can definitely speak on this one
because a lot of what I've been shifting towards
is writing for other artists as well as doing
sync writing, which is, for those who don't know,
sync licensing is the license used to pair music
with film or with TV or with broadcast campaigns.
And so a lot of that... you're answering a prompt
to you have to step outside yourself almost in
that character mode like you were talking about
and also writing for other artists because at
that point you're no longer answering to your
own script or your own story you're answering
to somebody else's but I would say in my experience
with that I have like your friend has done tried
to put elements of myself in it because I find
it really hard to write if I can't at least in
a very small sense, find myself in the story.
And so I think that as a result, the ego, the
personal has to step out of the room, but a bit
of it is still in there enough to say, okay,
my name is on this song and I know it's good
because I could relate to it in a certain way,
which means that my pin game was a bit stronger,
if that makes sense. Do you ever write songs
from anybody else's perspective, Elizabeth? Or
is it always... It typically is from my perspective,
but this is interesting that this is coming up
because, I don't know, I had a day, an Ancestry
.com day, and I traced back my roots to, I guess
it was a great -grandmother in Ireland. And yeah,
so I just wrote a song based on what I invented
as her story, based on really scant information
from Ancestry .com. That's a really cool idea.
Yeah, yeah. I was just curious. And so her name
is Annie Baker. There's a kind of a well -known
fiddle tune called Angela and the Baker. And
so I was... thinking about this song, Angeline
the Baker, which is, we've heard it a lot in
like old time and bluegrass circles around here.
And so I was like, who came before Angeline the
Baker? Annie Baker, my great -great -grandmother
from Ireland. And yeah, I just wrote this song
like about a week and a half ago and it's not
done, but it's definitely an Irish tune and it's
definitely based. on the few facts that I was
able to garner about her. And then the rest is
invented based on the family history and how
it's played out and what I'm imagining the ancestral
patterns are going back to her. That is such
a cool idea. It was fun. I never thought to do
that. Yeah, yeah. Huh. Yeah, and you can invent
anything you want. Because nobody's there. It's
such a good reminder. It's making me think about
the documentary that I want to do and pair it
with my music about my journey home back to China.
I think most of the songs that I've written,
most of which have not been released, much like
you were talking about, have been more what I
would say to my family or what I imagine they
would be versus allowing myself to create a story.
I really like that idea. Yeah. I think the part
of what I gained from the process was thinking
about how she... She left Ireland and she left
like these rolling green hills and got on a boat,
not really knowing what was awaiting her in America
and had this long journey up through New York
City and then to Cambridge and then eventually
made her way to the south, which is green rolling
hills. And so there was this parallel between
where I live and where she came from. And that's
these green rolling hills. So there was like
this personal moment. me thinking about your
story like you might be able to find some kind
of connection there's some intersection yeah
yeah oh i would love to hear that song that you
were just talking all right i'll work on it okay
it reminds me a lot of one of my favorite songs
by the drive -by truckers called ever south where
he's talking about how originally his family
came from Ellis Island and from Ireland and then
eventually moved into Appalachia. And then like
now he's talking about how he moved from the
South to Portland, Oregon and things are. Greener
pastures. But no matter where he goes, like everybody
knows where he's from because of his accent.
A similar feel to the Tom Petty Southern Accent
song. But I think in that case, it's actually,
even though he's taking on the perspectives of
his ancestors at points. And it sounds like this
is the case with you. It's actually maybe one
of your most personal songs. It may be. I have
a lot of really personal songs. I don't know
that. I can't wait to flip through your discovery
feed. Yeah, likewise. Likewise. Are you on Spotify?
I am. And your music is as well? All mine is
under The Adventures of Annabelle Lynn. Everything
on Spotify. And I'll make sure all of it's plugged
and linked in the description of this episode.
That would be great. This episode happened pretty
organically originally. I was going to just interview
Ina today. And we were doing soundcheck. And
Elizabeth was here just to help me out with some
stuff. And the conversation was already flowing.
And I was like, let's just do this. And everybody
was down. So look forward to an episode with
each of these wonderful ladies on their own as
well. Because I feel like there's... been wonderful
benefits to having this together but there's
also a lot of things that i'd really like to
talk to you all about not even necessarily individually
but just when we have more time i want to be
in the room during hers i won't say a word i'll
just be like no thank you for creating this space
and for creating this atmosphere for us i'm this
is a wonderful i i do want to talk about i try
to spend the last little bit of my interviews
allowing everybody to talk about what they're
doing now what you think is stuff people should
check out. And then also just anything that you
want to talk about that we haven't gotten to
yet where I'm not asking you random questions
that you didn't even know the answer to before
you walked in here. That being said, one thing
that's going on a lot right now, like it just
got announced today or yesterday, in fact, that
Timbaland signed his first AI artist. And I just
want to talk for a few minutes about what y 'all
think about AI in music. Have you ever used it?
Or do you want to plead the fifth? That's fine
too. I don't know. Everybody experiments in college.
It's fine. I'm crying. But seriously, just my
hot take, and I'm somebody who's easily convinced
on facts and good argument on anything, is that
it's... The same is pretty much anything. It's
how we use it. It's not inherently good or evil.
But I also think the billionaires are making
AI do art for a reason instead of our laundry.
And I'll... What do y 'all think? I... I have...
What a curiosity. Like when I first heard that
you could get a whole therapy session or a song
from AI, I was like, let's see how this works.
And spent some intimate hours digging through
the trenches of AI. And it's not all bad, but
it feels very canned to me. I typed in Joni Mitchell's
song and it was very. accurate. The prose had
all the mechanics of a Joni Mitchell song, but
the emotion gets sucked out of the room with
it. And as somebody who's taught middle school
last year and had a lot of students come up and
try to pass off AI papers, you can spot the difference.
I have a minor in English, and so I like to think
that I've read a lot of books. And sometimes
it's a little hazy when they put their own spin
on it. But as an artist, I don't, I'm not writing
for... for a company or a record deal. I'm writing
for me personally and for the musicians that
I play with and the audiences that we perform
for. I'm writing to build community. And I thrive
on music that the people around me are creating
or covering. And so my experience of music is
something that's very live and in the moment.
And when my band Adventures of Annabelle Lynn
was recording, It was still really important
to have a CD and to have a product that you could
put in people's hands because not everybody had
Spotify and cars that supported that technology.
CD players. CDs were it. It was so important
to have a CD. And we released our second album
in 2018. And after the pandemic, all of a sudden,
it was not as important to have a physical album
to sell to people. And I noticed that we were
financially making a lot more money off our performances
and our t -shirts and our koozies. We wear our
CDs. And we had financed all of our recording
projects with the sale of merchandise. So we
had to really restructure things. to respond
to that. And the joy for music for me has always
been in the live performance. And if there's
a silver lining to the way that music is being
distributed and the way that AI is impacting
things, it's that... There is, for me, like a
kind of a reinforcement of the idea that the
live performance and the connections that we
make in those musically creative spaces, that's
where it happens. And it, for me, takes the industry
piece out of it, takes the monetization. out
of it and so music for me now more than ever
is about the people the ways that we're creating
the ways that we're connecting through our music
so ai be damned ai doesn't do that for me music
to me is about it's about connections it's about
that very important, creative expression that
we have and that we owe to ourselves and each
other. Above all, turning off a device and looking
into somebody's eyes and singing, to me, will
always be the most important thing. I'm thinking,
so I have a friend who is a music therapist out
in Fort Collins at Colorado State University,
and she's developing these AI systems to deliver
music therapy to places that are super rural.
And it's so cool. It is so cool. And the potential
is there to really help a lot of people that
can't otherwise access that. If there's someone
sitting on the other side of that, they can cue
into those subtleties. And so I applaud her work
and I think that it's brilliant and it has huge
potential. But then I think back to moments that
I've sat with people in hospice and how I've
been able to hold their hand while I'm singing
them a song and how vital connection is in those
moments that are just so delicate and so tender.
I don't think that AI will ever be able to replace
that. And I know that with evidence and with
truth that in moments of death and illness, that's
how much it matters. So in early childhood and
in just joyful moments of getting body around
the fire at the bar, like that to me is so important.
And for those that can't afford therapy, you
can definitely. Order a pint and go sing some
Skinner down at the coast. AI can't do that.
I guess my next question, though, is more about
using AI as a tool rather than as a creator.
So there's a lot of ways that AI can help with
production, with recording. Once again, they
are jobs that were previously done by human beings.
And I do think that there is an element of that
goes away no matter what stage, whether it's
the recording. or the producing but not every
artist has the production skills or the ability
to pay for studio time or whatever and i do think
ai used correctly can actually empower artists
to make their music sound closer to what they
really want it to sound like but i also think
it's like the beginning stage right like the
moment you can afford a real producer the moment
you can afford a real graphic designer the moment
like any of those things cool you should do that
100 i think your work's only going to get better
when you do that but what do you think about
using those as tools at all do you think The
answer is no, go play live until you can afford
studio time. And that's a legit answer. I don't
think there's a wrong answer here. That's been
my path. But like I said, my last formal recording
was pre -AI. And so there are tools that I use
now that do incorporate elements of AI, but I'm
still very much... I am using them as a tool.
And in my interaction with technology, that's
always the question in my mind. Is this a tool
for me or am I becoming a tool for it? And so
I don't know. I'm sure it's going to evolve.
But there are certain tenets that are really
important to me as an artist and a human. But
I am also like very much an alien in this field.
Well, you minored in English, right? yeah were
you allowed to use spellcheck we were okay were
you allowed to use wikipedia didn't exist yet
i'm not trying to hate you but my point is like
when i was in college like spellcheck varied
depending on what we were doing or even or like
middle school like spelling is like a thing right
that you have to learn i think about the classic
you probably never heard this you know but elizabeth
and i In school, all the time, from our math
teacher. It's not like you're going to be walking
around with a calculator in your pocket all the
goddamn time. Nope, because by the time I was
taking math courses, guess what was in our pockets?
On the school list for purchase. And that's what's
in our pockets all the time now. But in a way,
like... There is absolutely a correlation in
what you're talking about. A calculator displaces
some work for mathematicians. Now, I think the
real issue is that as the work for these people
has been decreased by technology, the expectations
by the powers that be, corporate overlords, the
worker has never gotten any of that time back.
The workday is the same as it was pre any of
this technology. Workers are just expected to
be more productive and people get displaced because
of it. The calculator, as a result of that system,
certainly displaced mathematicians. Certainly
graphic artists that were more production artist
types. Maybe not creative, but more production
artists. First of all, there were like all the
Disney people painting the backgrounds for the
old animations. They all had cancer. But they
also, those jobs don't exist anymore. I don't
know what the right thing is. My point is that...
I think AI is here, and we can't deny it. We
can't whatever. I think we have to regulate it
in a way that it hasn't been regulated by anybody
yet. I think Ina's probably got some keen ideas
about this. Yeah, I really want to know, as somebody
who grew up knowing that technology was always
available, and we're really not that far apart,
but... That 10 years is like crucially different.
Yeah, especially with the technology and the
way that it's sorted. Yeah, for sure. The difference
between 86 and 96 is crazy. Yes, for sure. In
a way that humans have never experienced before.
So I do think you have probably a really unique
perspective on all this. yeah i would say i have
a lot of feelings about ai for certain and like
we've been talking about just like any tool it
can be used as a tool truly and it can also be
weaponized and i loved that your central point
was about connection and the beauty in that and
what i think about when i think about using Even
AI in a way that it's like you were talking about
a stepping stool to get to the producers. What
happens when it's so comfortable that you're
working with AI that you don't have to reach
out to a producer, that it just becomes convenient
or easy or cheaper to the point where you're
losing that connection? For me, the way I use
AI for music and not for music is truly to help
streamline things that I find are repetitive
for myself. or for things that I don't know about.
I was actually in a recording session like two
weeks ago, and our producer pulled up Suno AI.
This was the application that was put out by
Timberland and his team. And I remember in my
stomach, I was just like, what are you doing?
But it was just that kind of preconceived judgment
of... How dare we take away the creative process?
But then he pulled up different sound samples
and it just streamlined the process of, okay,
this is a sound we can explore. And it was really
using it as a tool as opposed to... boom, we
found the sound. All we have to do is replicate
it. And I think that's when it gets dangerous.
Like in the future, I see myself using Suno AI
to be really honest with you in finding different
sounds, but then making sure that I'm not stopping
there, that I'm taking it to a person, that I'm
taking it to a team of trusted producers. I think
that AI, because it's growing so quickly too,
you have to consider also the ethics and the
copyright side of it too. Because at what point
are all of these companies company is going to
say, oh, you know what? This has AI on it. So
actually we own X percentage of the song and
so on and so forth. And so it's really interesting
to navigate the technology that's moving so,
so quickly, faster than we can regulate it, faster
than we can create parameters and safety nets
for things. For me, I know that my lyrics, because
they're so personal, will never come from AI
for my own. But I think some people maybe who
have a tough time getting their words out can
lean on AI and say, this is what I want to say.
But it's as long as they don't stop with what
AI provides. Kind of like your students, too.
People who are looking to write a paper. AI,
I think, is a great tool to give you a frame
and to expose you also to things that you might
not have also been thinking about. But if you
stop there and let it speak for you, that's when
I think it gets really dangerous. What about
when, and we'll move on from this kind of topic
here in a second and just talk about current
projects here to wrap things up. But how much
of the internet do you feel like when you put
your content out there, how much, and I'm asking
you, this is someone who I know like streams
a lot. You do a lot. You stream a lot of your
recording sessions. You do a lot of Instagram
interactions and things like that. It's so nice
that you say that because I feel like I've been
lacking. So that's awesome. No, I think. Yeah,
but I do try to create. I feel like I could learn
a lot from you in that area for sure. I ask you
this because, like, how much of that, the internet
right now, it's, like, a lot of people think
that it's, like, the interaction, the engagement
is what they call it. That's what the kids are
saying. That's what the kids are saying now in
the marketing analytics rooms. Good God. The
engagement, a lot of it is AI generated. It's
all AI slop. You go on Facebook and you look
at an ad. Or you might not notice it was an ad
until you realize that all the comments seem
to be written by robots. But have you ever watched
a producer fix drums? I feel like yes. Not off
the top of my head, but I feel like yes. And
especially like in top 40 music, they're trying
to get it perfect. They're basically trying to
take humanity. Oh, in terms of mixing and mastering?
Oh, yeah, I have watched. Yeah, like a producer
trying to fix drums. Absolutely. They're almost
trying to make it robotic way. Sometimes. In
the sense that, and the reason I say that is
they want to find the perfect snare sound and
replace every snare in the song with that snare
sound. They want to find the perfect fill that
he recorded 12 times and use that one. But not
only that, they want to put it all on a grid.
And so, like, it, in a way, I almost think that...
The way AI produces music and the way that top
40 music is produced is not that different. Oh,
for sure, because it's trying to answer to what's
most successful. But that's what you have to
ask. But I think that's why AI is producing music
that way, too. Because AI is trained by the algorithm
of the music that's most successful. And I'm
not saying this. I just think all I'm pointing
out is that. At a certain point, humans have
tried to create perfection in production. I'm
questioning not whether or not AI is useful in
achieving that, but whether or not that goal
is useful at all. Because I think when Elizabeth
talked about what's wrong with AI, you could
have said most of those things about a lot of
producers out there that try and make the drums
sound perfect. almost sound not human anymore
because it's so perfect. I would actually disagree
because I think at least my interpretation of
what Elizabeth was stating was that at the centerfold
of what producers are doing, whether we agree
with it or not, is that it's coming from them.
It's coming from, and of course we are a reflection
of everything that we're taking in, but at the
end of the day, it's a person making the decision
as opposed to a machine. I agree with that. I
think though what I'm getting at is more probably
something that neither of y 'all or me have directly
encountered with a producer. But if you listen
to a lot of music that people might call overproduced,
I think those criticisms that Elizabeth was levying
at AI -produced music could be pretty applicable
to a lot of that overproduced music. And that
started with relying on technology. In the first
place. Tools is what created all of that in a
lot of ways. But even before we were working
on a DAW or bringing in different plugins, I
would imagine that there were picky artists.
and sound engineers before Dawes were here that
were trying every different avenue, trying to
perfect the sound, whether it was picking up
a different instrument or picking up a different
type of equipment. I agree with that 100%. I
guess what I'm getting at, and I think what you
just said helps me figure out exactly what I'm
getting at, and it's that the idea of perfection
changed. What do you think, Elizabeth? Because
I think your idea of perfection... I think your
idea of perfection is like a very human one and
like authentic and real. And I'm looking at Elizabeth
as I say this. And yours is too, Ina. What I'm
saying is that like at a certain point, even
humans can start to make robotic decisions because
they have no constraints. Yeah, I think I was
talking about using AI in the creation process
and using AI in the recording process is a different.
animal to me. And I've been in... In the studio
where we're using Pro Tools and we're like, oh,
like that perfect sound that you just did on
your bass with that. That is what we're going
to do for the other. We're just going to cut
and paste and put it here and here. And it felt,
oh, like that's not exactly what I did, but okay.
Yeah. But that's the joy of that medium is that
you can lift and you can do all these things
to make it studio perfect. Before I had that
studio recording experience, I just took it for
what it was. I just thought that artists went
into the studio and recorded these absolutely
perfect things. And wow, how did they do that?
It never sounds like that at the concert. It
never sounds like that when I try to play it
back. It's just a more genuine experience to
understand how that music is creative. But then
once you're like, okay, like they, if somebody's
making that admission, yeah, like I've got this
AI entity creating music on this album and like
we're all in cahoots with that, then that's great.
Now we know what the potential is for that sound
and that artist to interact. I think that having
that clarity, like... informs the listener. That's
what this sounds like. I think back to in the
early 2000s when I was go into a lot of jam band
shows. And there was always this moment of we'd
all get there and we'd be like, Oh my God, this
band is so much better live than in the studio.
And there were a lot of bands that had this,
like this way of transcending whatever was happening
in the moment. And so all of a sudden we were
like a part of that. And there's this audience
performer interaction and then they would get
into the studio and it just felt really canned
and perfect and polished. That's so true. Live
music is so much. It's so much. better and that
AI can't do that AI cannot read a room and so
I think like initially when you asked the question
I was thinking about that but thinking about
all of the ways that it changes production the
recording side of things like that's definitely
a different spin on what AI is and what the potential
and the pitfalls are and I think what you've
gotten after is that there's a difference between
using tools whether it be ai or anything else
but to achieve the artist's vision of a song
rather than trying to make it sound perfect yeah
and when i say perfect there's no mistakes i
think back to like almost famous and he's talking
about oh it's the woos in the songs that we love
the little mistakes there's that woo And those
are the things, those are the human moments that
make us really connect with those artists. I
want to end this conversation by saying AI is
just as new to us as it is to everybody else.
And I don't think any of us have a firm stance
on anything that we just talked about. This was
just like an exploratory conversation. I'm going
to go explore AI. Truth be told, I haven't dove
into that for a little while. If people want
to explore your music, Elizabeth, where can they
find it? That was a fire cycle. I see what you
did there. And I'll take the bait and tell you.
So the Adventures of Annabelle Lynn is on Spotify.
And that was a band that I was touring with from
about 2010 to 2012. I think I did see a higher
percentage of your overall shows than the drive
-by truckers. Oh, yeah. And there's a whole lot
of YouTube content with us on there. Currently,
I post all my shows on Facebook and Instagram
occasionally, but I play a whole lot around the
Tallahassee area. I teach music. I also teach
over at the Spirit of the Suwannee Kids music
camp and perform at the festivals over there
regularly. So a lot of regional stuff. When you
play live nowadays, how much of it is super planned
and how much of it are you up there? I don't
want to say winging it because I've never seen
you look like you're winging it at all. But improvising
and going with the flow of what the crowd is
responding to and things like that. Yeah, I...
Typically write up a set list before I get up
and perform. Sometimes that can be like something
that's scribbled on a piece of paper as we're
driving to the gig. Sometimes it's pulling out
an old set list and just winging it based on
this list that worked a couple of weeks ago at
the previous gig. But yeah, I like to be somewhat
prepared for what I'm doing. I want to ask you,
you just had a release party. That was sold out.
You did something that I, so I actually do house
shows too. And I want to set one up with you
at some point. But you did something that I hadn't
thought of, which was like a combination ticket
and merchandise package. Yes. Just talk about
that show and talk about like how you thought
about doing, because it's sold out. It was super
successful. So I want to just, if you wouldn't
mind sharing. Sharing the nuggets. How you came
up with that idea and everything. Of course.
Well, I definitely didn't come up. with it by
myself. I partnered with Tyler Denzel. He's the
owner of Little Garden Studio. I do a lot of
my recording out there. And this is an idea that
he and I have had. I have a lot of experience
with intimate shows. It's honestly my preference
is to perform in front of an audience of 100
or less so that I can really look into people's
eyes and stare into their soul when I'm pouring
my heart out. No, but this was something that
Tyler and I were talking about. I like achievable
goals. Freaking people out in the first, second
and third row. No, but the idea came about really
when I was just wanting to express or share rather
some of my newer music that I didn't really know
where to put it. And of course, celebrate the
three motions drop. This is my latest EP. It's
a three track project that just talks about the
stages of falling in love. And so the show came
together pretty quickly. And then the merch was
added when we decided this would be an awesome
idea to just package everything together to give
people a full experience in terms of we really
want to bring them into my world of music. And
to answer or to piggyback off of what Elizabeth
was saying, that definitely took some planning
and wanting to really tell a story with this
set list. I've heard a lot of bands, it's pretty
customary to have a CD release party and you
get the CD. But you had the package. What all
did people get when they came to your show? Sure.
So also just to clarify, this wasn't technically
a release party. It was more so just a celebration
of everything that's been released in the last
year. Three Motions was released back in February
on all platforms. But when we were thinking about...
merch packages I honestly just wanted to do stuff
that I'd never done before and t -shirts was
one of the first things and then Tyler was like
let's do a tote bag dude and I was like that
sounds freaking awesome and it was just thinking
it thinking about the stock that I had in terms
of the merch that was already created and like
how can we expand it and so when people came
they got a t -shirt a poster God, what else?
Stickers that came late. So technically not.
See, they got some older stickers. But we had
stickers made, postcards. It came with that little
journal that I had put in your pack as well.
Just asking you to think about what it feels
like to be still because that was the name of
my first EP. So a lot of, I'd say my merch that
I've put out separately has been more personable,
like more so. encouraging people to write their
loved ones or to reflect. And Tyler's, let's
expand a bit and think about some of the merch
that sells the best. And so it was really cool
to create those things. And all credit to him.
He did an incredible job putting that stuff together.
And just for everybody with full name, what's
Tyler's full name? Government name, Tyler Denzel.
He is the owner of Little Garden Studio. It's
off of Capitol Circle, right across from the
gym. I'll probably cut the location out. Okay,
perfect. So he doesn't have stalkers. No, get
the stalkers. Drive the foot traffic. That's
cool. I've never heard of him. It was an awesome
opportunity. And honestly, if you're interested
in having a show similar to that, I'd be happy
to set something up because what we were trying
to do is hamster my project and say, let's just
give it a go. And so we can create a template
and a system and process to bring other artists
in for similar experiences. Cool. You got shows
coming up where people can catch you? I do not
have any local shows coming up, but I will be
in D .C. at the end of July for a podcast workshop
and show and then a few SoFar shows as well.
Awesome. But I would love to schedule more shows
on here. I have to pick your brain about getting
gigs and stuff because that's something that's
pretty new to me. Where's your, like, what's
your social, name all your social platforms?
You're active on Instagram a lot. I am, yeah.
I would say that's probably the social media
platform I'm most active on. I need to get on.
I need to get back on TikTok. I had a TikTok.
I don't have a TikTok anymore. That's a different
conversation for a different time. But I'm on
Instagram. My username is inaa .rte. But all
my music can be found on my website at www .inaa
.rte .com. It's where you'll find my full discography.
It's also where the 25 for 2025 project is posted.
It's via SoundCloud. All of my other stuff is
streaming on all major platforms. And if you
follow her on Instagram, She's been streaming,
recording her sessions for 25. She's been pretty
cool to watch. So definitely check that out.
Elizabeth, do you have any other social media
that you want to share with everybody? I know
you're on Instagram too, right? Yeah, Instagram
at Elizabeth Travels and Facebook. Yeah. June
20th, I'll be at Apalachicola Yacht Club with
Raising Cane. And then Saturday, June 21st at
Southern Philosophy in Bainbridge, Georgia. And
then coming up in July, I'll be at the Farmer's
Market on July 5th. Which farmer's? The one in
downtown Tallahassee on College Avenue. All right.
Thank you all so much. We're going to get things
set up for Ina to share a song with us to close
out this episode. Thank you all for talking to
us. That was a lot of fun. Thank you. So much
to say Where do I start? Oh, it's been years
That we've been apart So much to tell you There's
so much to express As I write words on a letter
with no address. There's no way to reach you.
How do I get home? How do I retrace every step
back to a place I've never known? How do I get
back to... I have so many questions. Are you
okay? Are you protected? Mom, are you safe? Dad,
how is your health? How is your joy? Where is
your spirit? How can I hear your voice when there's
no way to reach you? How do I get home? How do
I retrace every step back to a place I've never
known? How do I get back to... This has been
overeducated and underemployed.