WEBVTT 00:00:42.960 --> 00:00:46.020 Welcome to Overeducated and Underemployed, I'm 00:00:46.020 --> 00:00:49.439 Fedden. Today I am going to talk to you about 00:00:49.439 --> 00:00:53.740 the role of historians and how I think it's different 00:00:53.740 --> 00:00:57.539 between different fields. And a lot of it you 00:00:57.539 --> 00:00:59.479 really can't talk about without talking about 00:00:59.479 --> 00:01:03.179 recent developments, and when I say recent, not 00:01:03.179 --> 00:01:05.640 in the last hundred years or so, developments 00:01:05.640 --> 00:01:09.340 in the way history is conducted, the way we study 00:01:09.340 --> 00:01:13.939 history. Some of this is going back and looking 00:01:13.939 --> 00:01:18.099 at the historical record with a new lens. Some 00:01:18.099 --> 00:01:22.640 of this is the way we started gathering information 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:27.959 and historical evidence in the current modern 00:01:27.959 --> 00:01:31.760 time to preserve for the future. So we'll be 00:01:31.760 --> 00:01:35.120 talking about some of those differences, the 00:01:35.120 --> 00:01:39.469 ways that history as a field has changed. And 00:01:39.469 --> 00:01:40.989 then we're going to talk about what I think the 00:01:40.989 --> 00:01:45.069 role of a historian is in different kind of settings. 00:01:45.150 --> 00:01:49.730 And we can dive into that. So a lot of listeners 00:01:49.730 --> 00:01:54.049 probably associate history mostly with military 00:01:54.049 --> 00:01:57.230 history. Because for a long time, that's really 00:01:57.230 --> 00:02:01.590 all that history classes and a lot of history 00:02:01.590 --> 00:02:05.489 and historians talked about. That's what they 00:02:05.489 --> 00:02:07.840 viewed as important. That doesn't mean that we 00:02:07.840 --> 00:02:12.400 didn't have a record of other people, but largely 00:02:12.400 --> 00:02:18.099 shifts in power and dominating governments. And 00:02:18.099 --> 00:02:22.960 the way that came about was usually the dominant 00:02:22.960 --> 00:02:26.139 narrative when it came to the historical record. 00:02:26.379 --> 00:02:28.180 Now, I think there's a number of reasons for 00:02:28.180 --> 00:02:32.139 this. For one, we're talking about a male -dominated 00:02:32.139 --> 00:02:37.580 field until the 20th century. until today really 00:02:37.580 --> 00:02:42.080 even we're talking about a field there's an old 00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:43.719 saying history is always written by the winners 00:02:43.719 --> 00:02:47.240 I think that started to change in the 20th century 00:02:47.240 --> 00:02:50.300 and we'll talk about how that changed here in 00:02:50.300 --> 00:02:54.000 a few minutes but when you look at your world 00:02:54.000 --> 00:02:56.300 history classes that are taught even in college 00:02:56.300 --> 00:03:00.280 today they primarily focus on government and 00:03:00.280 --> 00:03:05.509 military history and that misses a whole complete 00:03:05.509 --> 00:03:09.030 part of the picture. And I think parts of that 00:03:09.030 --> 00:03:12.189 are captured by artistic expression from the 00:03:12.189 --> 00:03:15.210 time. If you look at Charles Dickens, it's a 00:03:15.210 --> 00:03:20.129 classic example of what Victorian lifestyle was 00:03:20.129 --> 00:03:24.689 like at times. If you look at Mark Twain, sometimes 00:03:24.689 --> 00:03:28.909 he can be viewed as telling a real story, the 00:03:28.909 --> 00:03:32.729 story of real people in the American South. during 00:03:32.729 --> 00:03:36.530 and after the civil war yet these are what you 00:03:36.530 --> 00:03:40.009 would call historical fiction right or at the 00:03:40.009 --> 00:03:42.629 time just fiction but now if you view them through 00:03:42.629 --> 00:03:45.909 our current lens they're they they require a 00:03:45.909 --> 00:03:50.169 certain context to really understand what is 00:03:50.169 --> 00:03:54.770 being portrayed in these books and what happens 00:03:54.770 --> 00:03:59.610 in the 20th century is ironically enough the 00:03:59.610 --> 00:04:04.400 product of one of the largest war wars in our 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:08.539 world's history obviously world war ii oral history 00:04:08.539 --> 00:04:14.199 started to emerge as a field when interviewing 00:04:14.199 --> 00:04:17.680 holocaust survivors so in interviewing holocaust 00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:20.839 survivors they realized that there's a whole 00:04:20.839 --> 00:04:25.740 side of history that isn't being told and there's 00:04:25.740 --> 00:04:29.220 a great highlight of this method of gathering 00:04:29.220 --> 00:04:32.959 stories from the quote -unquote common people 00:04:32.959 --> 00:04:35.860 at the Chicago History Museum, where they took 00:04:35.860 --> 00:04:38.060 it beyond just interviewing Holocaust survivors. 00:04:38.319 --> 00:04:41.040 That's where it started, but it evolved into 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:43.879 just really gathering the stories of everyday 00:04:43.879 --> 00:04:47.879 people, usually in an interview form, to try 00:04:47.879 --> 00:04:52.319 and understand history from a different perspective. 00:04:52.639 --> 00:04:56.920 When you talk about military history, that's 00:04:56.920 --> 00:04:59.720 just like a part of the story. And I think... 00:05:00.220 --> 00:05:02.540 Throughout the 20th century, you started to see 00:05:02.540 --> 00:05:06.399 different fields of history emerge, whether it 00:05:06.399 --> 00:05:09.899 be the way history was conducted, such as social 00:05:09.899 --> 00:05:15.639 and oral history, or focusing on specific fields 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:20.540 of study like art history or history of science. 00:05:21.079 --> 00:05:27.000 And I think when you start to look at these emerging 00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:29.439 fields like art history and history of science, 00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:34.360 They really, not only do they not only focus 00:05:34.360 --> 00:05:37.100 on military history, in fact, military history 00:05:37.100 --> 00:05:40.060 is usually, I don't want to say not mentioned, 00:05:40.120 --> 00:05:43.379 but it's certainly not the focus of the backdrop. 00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:47.759 But the backdrop provided in art and in history 00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:50.259 of science, art history and history of science, 00:05:50.339 --> 00:05:54.740 is really an all -encompassing one. And I think 00:05:54.740 --> 00:05:57.540 that happens for a few reasons. You start to 00:05:57.540 --> 00:06:02.009 see... History of science taking into account 00:06:02.009 --> 00:06:06.750 everything going on, whether it's conflict and 00:06:06.750 --> 00:06:12.629 economics and war or thought progression and 00:06:12.629 --> 00:06:17.589 advancements in population expansion or even 00:06:17.589 --> 00:06:21.970 just other fields of thought like sociology, 00:06:22.470 --> 00:06:28.230 geology, all being taken into account. When studying 00:06:28.230 --> 00:06:32.149 the way a certain scientific theory came into 00:06:32.149 --> 00:06:35.250 being. And in the 20th century you start to have 00:06:35.250 --> 00:06:37.970 something called constructivism emerge. If you've 00:06:37.970 --> 00:06:40.629 ever seen the movie Adaptation with Nicolas Cage. 00:06:40.889 --> 00:06:45.709 That would be like the prime example of a constructivist 00:06:45.709 --> 00:06:49.769 writing a movie. The idea that you can't separate 00:06:49.769 --> 00:06:54.290 what's being written from the writer. And you 00:06:54.290 --> 00:06:57.420 start to see... criticisms of science in the 00:06:57.420 --> 00:07:01.699 20th century and criticisms of art in the 20th 00:07:01.699 --> 00:07:07.199 century in a similar way, I think, where a deeper 00:07:07.199 --> 00:07:10.000 examination of the person, the scientist or the 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:13.360 artist, can give a deeper understanding to the 00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:17.519 art itself or the scientific discovery itself, 00:07:17.939 --> 00:07:21.699 right? A really famous case of this is Linnaeus 00:07:21.699 --> 00:07:25.660 being reinterpreted. in a constructivist view, 00:07:25.860 --> 00:07:31.019 as someone who was very obsessed with mammary 00:07:31.019 --> 00:07:35.379 glands and wet nursing, and he was against wet 00:07:35.379 --> 00:07:38.439 nursing. And Linnaeus, of course, invented our 00:07:38.439 --> 00:07:42.040 taxonomy system that we still use today. And 00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:47.379 the reasons he developed that system are separate 00:07:47.379 --> 00:07:50.600 from the reasons that system is still used in 00:07:50.600 --> 00:07:54.709 a loose way to this day. There's a great paper 00:07:54.709 --> 00:07:58.029 called Why Are Mammals Called Mammals, or something 00:07:58.029 --> 00:08:00.029 along those lines, and I can't remember who it 00:08:00.029 --> 00:08:04.350 was written by. But it dives into this, and it's 00:08:04.350 --> 00:08:07.610 impossible to separate the theory from the person 00:08:07.610 --> 00:08:12.149 and their obsessions in this case. But what you 00:08:12.149 --> 00:08:16.569 can separate is how useful the taxonomic system 00:08:16.569 --> 00:08:21.189 he developed, for whatever reason, was from a 00:08:21.189 --> 00:08:24.379 heuristic standpoint. He may have called mammals 00:08:24.379 --> 00:08:26.500 mammals based on the mammary gland because he 00:08:26.500 --> 00:08:29.220 was obsessed with mammary glands. But mammary 00:08:29.220 --> 00:08:34.139 glands also happen to be something that if an 00:08:34.139 --> 00:08:36.879 animal has, it usually has all of these other 00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:39.759 traits. And I say usually because there's things 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:44.759 like the platypus that is an exception. But if 00:08:44.759 --> 00:08:48.440 you have mammary glands, you typically are warm 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:50.799 -blooded. You have fur. You give live birth. 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:54.700 all of these things. And whether Linnaeus saw 00:08:54.700 --> 00:08:58.220 that or not, his reason for focusing on the mammary 00:08:58.220 --> 00:09:00.700 gland in the first place was not necessarily 00:09:00.700 --> 00:09:04.519 a scientific one. Right. So as I talked about 00:09:04.519 --> 00:09:07.600 in my episode about the scientific method and 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:11.379 how it was constructed, the same thing goes for 00:09:11.379 --> 00:09:15.860 the taxonomic classification system of animals, 00:09:15.940 --> 00:09:20.460 because if it hadn't been super useful, and accurate 00:09:20.460 --> 00:09:23.679 in a lot of ways, it would have fallen out of 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:26.019 use. The scientific community would have abandoned 00:09:26.019 --> 00:09:28.679 it for something different. Science wasn't even 00:09:28.679 --> 00:09:31.580 really a thing in Linnaeus. It was called natural 00:09:31.580 --> 00:09:34.500 philosophy back then. It wasn't even really, 00:09:34.679 --> 00:09:37.620 it certainly didn't have the standards and peer 00:09:37.620 --> 00:09:40.740 review that it has today. But certain things 00:09:40.740 --> 00:09:44.580 fell out of use and fell into use because of 00:09:44.580 --> 00:09:48.340 how useful they were, or not. And the taxonomic 00:09:48.340 --> 00:09:52.580 system that Linnaeus developed, despite his sort 00:09:52.580 --> 00:09:55.539 of weird reasonings for developing it in the 00:09:55.539 --> 00:10:00.019 first place, were very much useful and have stood 00:10:00.019 --> 00:10:02.860 the test of time in a lot of ways. And not only 00:10:02.860 --> 00:10:05.860 that, as we've discovered way more species than 00:10:05.860 --> 00:10:09.399 Linnaeus ever had any idea existed, it has continued 00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:12.220 to... Of course, we've updated it and changed 00:10:12.220 --> 00:10:16.769 it over time, but... At its foundation, the system 00:10:16.769 --> 00:10:20.590 we use is the Linnaean system. So I think one 00:10:20.590 --> 00:10:23.370 role of a historian is to really re -examine 00:10:23.370 --> 00:10:27.330 the stories that we tell with the information 00:10:27.330 --> 00:10:30.669 that we have, whether it be personal journals 00:10:30.669 --> 00:10:33.950 or... Another great example is there's a lot 00:10:33.950 --> 00:10:37.529 of debate as to what caused Charles Darwin's 00:10:37.529 --> 00:10:39.769 sickness, whether he got some tropical disease 00:10:39.769 --> 00:10:43.289 while he was on the Beagle, whether it was anxiety. 00:10:44.299 --> 00:10:46.519 because of his theory and what the implications 00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:53.080 of it were, or once his wife's cookbook was published 00:10:53.080 --> 00:10:57.759 and examined deeply, and you tied it to the times 00:10:57.759 --> 00:10:59.919 when he was home and the times when he would 00:10:59.919 --> 00:11:04.440 go to these baths to do a cleanse and eat a raw 00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:07.240 diet, but the moment he would come home, he would 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:10.019 start eating his wife's cooking again, and he 00:11:10.019 --> 00:11:12.480 loved his wife's cooking, but... If you look 00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:17.139 at her cookbook, it was full of dairy. Butter, 00:11:17.399 --> 00:11:20.919 cream, milk, all this cheese, all this dairy. 00:11:21.320 --> 00:11:26.559 And one theory is that Darwin was lactose intolerant. 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:29.480 And that, along with, I'm sure, some anxiety 00:11:29.480 --> 00:11:34.720 and possible illnesses of other kinds, too, certainly 00:11:34.720 --> 00:11:39.740 played a role. So that's one role, is to re -examine 00:11:39.740 --> 00:11:42.250 the stories that we already tell. Another role 00:11:42.250 --> 00:11:46.450 of a historian is, I think, to inform the current 00:11:46.450 --> 00:11:49.750 field of people. But I think that can vary as 00:11:49.750 --> 00:11:53.370 to how important that is, how much the current 00:11:53.370 --> 00:11:57.429 practitioners of that field should listen. For 00:11:57.429 --> 00:12:00.769 instance, I don't know how useful an art historian 00:12:00.769 --> 00:12:07.240 is to an artist. I don't know how... good a music 00:12:07.240 --> 00:12:10.340 historian is to a musician who's trying to create 00:12:10.340 --> 00:12:13.440 something new and original if anything it could 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:17.480 be a hindrance if they worry about too much about 00:12:17.480 --> 00:12:21.539 trying to be original and not creating just whatever 00:12:21.539 --> 00:12:25.019 comes out of them but with a historian of science 00:12:25.019 --> 00:12:28.940 i think you really need to inform scientists 00:12:28.940 --> 00:12:32.539 of things that have already been done for instance 00:12:32.539 --> 00:12:36.490 for the same reason that you know They say those 00:12:36.490 --> 00:12:38.289 who don't know their history are bound to repeat 00:12:38.289 --> 00:12:40.710 it. And of course, you know, that cliche is true 00:12:40.710 --> 00:12:44.250 for a reason. But I think what's more true and 00:12:44.250 --> 00:12:47.889 what's more kind of revealing is if you don't 00:12:47.889 --> 00:12:50.169 know where you've been, then you don't know where 00:12:50.169 --> 00:12:52.370 you are and you don't know where you're going. 00:12:52.809 --> 00:12:55.769 And if you are an artist trying to create something 00:12:55.769 --> 00:12:59.129 free, that might be good. We've talked about 00:12:59.129 --> 00:13:02.409 constraint being a good thing before. But, and 00:13:02.409 --> 00:13:05.799 you've heard my... interview with with sloan 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:08.139 simpson if you haven't listened yet check it 00:13:08.139 --> 00:13:12.860 out but sometimes he would try and get out of 00:13:12.860 --> 00:13:16.320 this idea of creating something specific or not 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:17.899 repeating something that's already been done 00:13:17.899 --> 00:13:20.899 and sometimes with other artists like roddy like 00:13:20.899 --> 00:13:24.200 they don't care about that at all they just want 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:25.980 to let everything in that they've ever listened 00:13:25.980 --> 00:13:30.960 to in to the stew if you will but when it comes 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:35.080 to historians of science i think It's more important 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:38.139 for those practicing science to understand the 00:13:38.139 --> 00:13:40.940 history in the same way that, and I think this 00:13:40.940 --> 00:13:42.720 goes back to the beginning of the episode, where 00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:48.320 I think it's really important for military people, 00:13:48.539 --> 00:13:52.039 whatever you want to call them, generals, to 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:55.720 know military history. There's strategy there. 00:13:56.279 --> 00:13:59.419 In the same way that I think it's important for 00:13:59.419 --> 00:14:03.960 a musician to... know the history of music to 00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:07.240 a degree of whatever it is they're trying to 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:10.000 do. If anything, just to understand all the tools 00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:12.419 they have available to them and to think about 00:14:12.419 --> 00:14:14.100 music in ways that maybe they aren't thinking 00:14:14.100 --> 00:14:17.899 about it yet. But I think the idea of an artist 00:14:17.899 --> 00:14:21.940 being a historian can be detrimental because 00:14:21.940 --> 00:14:24.600 they could get caught in this trap of trying 00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:26.720 not to repeat something that's already been done. 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:29.399 Whereas if they're just their authentic self, 00:14:29.480 --> 00:14:32.740 it's already not going to be something that's 00:14:32.740 --> 00:14:34.980 already been done. With scientists, they really 00:14:34.980 --> 00:14:37.460 do need to learn from the past mistakes in the 00:14:37.460 --> 00:14:40.240 same way that a military historian might need 00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:43.320 to teach a general. A military historian of science 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:47.860 really needs to inform scientists of past mistakes, 00:14:47.940 --> 00:14:52.279 past strategies, including all of the other things 00:14:52.279 --> 00:14:55.519 like the tools available to them, what's already 00:14:55.519 --> 00:14:59.779 been discovered. One thing I see a lot in science 00:14:59.779 --> 00:15:02.460 right now is a compartmentalization of ideas 00:15:02.460 --> 00:15:06.620 and where we have people who might be an expert 00:15:06.620 --> 00:15:10.559 on like 12 different spiders or a certain kind 00:15:10.559 --> 00:15:17.259 of horse or a colony of bats or primates of some 00:15:17.259 --> 00:15:20.179 sort. But they know very little. And these are 00:15:20.179 --> 00:15:23.500 biologists, right? Who might end up knowing very 00:15:23.500 --> 00:15:26.779 little about... anything else in there in the 00:15:26.779 --> 00:15:29.799 field of science in the field of biology except 00:15:29.799 --> 00:15:33.039 their one little thing and i think this is the 00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:35.820 role of historians of science is to help build 00:15:35.820 --> 00:15:39.539 those bridges bridge those gaps of knowledge 00:15:39.539 --> 00:15:42.820 between the different scientists and they really 00:15:42.820 --> 00:15:45.139 should be part of the community in a way i think 00:15:45.139 --> 00:15:49.360 when we're talking about art historians When 00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:51.460 it comes to capitalism, there's a certain value 00:15:51.460 --> 00:15:53.600 that art historians have because they can help 00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:56.259 appraise art and things like that. But if you're 00:15:56.259 --> 00:15:59.279 talking about the more documentarian style, think 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:02.419 about somebody like Alan Lomax, who was really 00:16:02.419 --> 00:16:05.379 just trying to capture music before the people 00:16:05.379 --> 00:16:09.039 that made it died. Or even certain producers 00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:11.460 like Steve Albini, who passed away recently, 00:16:11.700 --> 00:16:14.240 who wasn't really trying to be involved, but 00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:16.259 really just trying to capture what the band was 00:16:16.259 --> 00:16:20.299 doing in the room at the time. These people are, 00:16:20.519 --> 00:16:25.179 or even honestly, in the interviews that I'm 00:16:25.179 --> 00:16:28.720 conducting on this, I think I'm applying oral 00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:33.059 history, philosophy, social history to art and 00:16:33.059 --> 00:16:37.220 to musicians and to artists and comedians. And 00:16:37.220 --> 00:16:39.320 you'll see more of what I mean in the next few 00:16:39.320 --> 00:16:42.960 episodes. But I'm very much trying to get the 00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:45.940 stories of these people, whether they're big 00:16:45.940 --> 00:16:49.169 stars or not. Because I think those stories matter. 00:16:49.570 --> 00:16:52.970 I think documenting what artists are doing is 00:16:52.970 --> 00:16:56.129 much more important of a role for a historian 00:16:56.129 --> 00:17:00.809 of art or music than trying to reinterpret the 00:17:00.809 --> 00:17:05.029 stories of the past when it comes to... I think 00:17:05.029 --> 00:17:07.630 that has its place. I do think understanding 00:17:07.630 --> 00:17:11.029 who an artist was can help you have insight into 00:17:11.029 --> 00:17:14.779 what their art meant. Understanding why a piece 00:17:14.779 --> 00:17:16.980 was commissioned can give you insight. Those 00:17:16.980 --> 00:17:18.920 are all important things, don't get me wrong. 00:17:19.259 --> 00:17:22.059 And understanding that can have a pivotal part 00:17:22.059 --> 00:17:25.839 of understanding the art itself. But we live 00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:28.259 in an age now where there's so much information 00:17:28.259 --> 00:17:30.960 that it can be lost in the shuffle. And without 00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:33.920 intentionally trying to document some things, 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:38.059 like stories, I think there's a chance that there's 00:17:38.059 --> 00:17:40.519 some of this stuff that could get lost forever. 00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:43.809 And so... I think the role of an art historian, 00:17:44.230 --> 00:17:48.549 music historian, and I do have a postgraduate 00:17:48.549 --> 00:17:52.730 degree in history, I think that our role is really 00:17:52.730 --> 00:17:55.309 to document these stories, to document what's 00:17:55.309 --> 00:17:58.990 happening, more than it is to try and inform 00:17:58.990 --> 00:18:03.549 artists of, oh, you've already done, that's already 00:18:03.549 --> 00:18:06.109 been done, or, oh, that's similar to this motif. 00:18:06.930 --> 00:18:10.420 I think that's unimportant, I think. That can 00:18:10.420 --> 00:18:12.259 actually get in the way of artistic expression. 00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:17.019 I think what's a lot more important is documenting 00:18:17.019 --> 00:18:19.900 what these artists are doing. And maybe understanding 00:18:19.900 --> 00:18:22.559 how certain things are influenced by others. 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:28.759 One important way that we can look at historians 00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:32.839 of science informing current scientists is with 00:18:32.839 --> 00:18:35.680 the emerging field of historical ecology. Historical 00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:40.029 ecology takes regular historical record. and 00:18:40.029 --> 00:18:43.390 uses it to extrapolate ecological information 00:18:43.390 --> 00:18:47.589 about the past. There's a professor named Lauren 00:18:47.589 --> 00:18:50.690 McClenahan, Dr. Lauren McClenahan, who did her 00:18:50.690 --> 00:18:54.890 postdoc while I was in school, where I was attending 00:18:54.890 --> 00:19:00.130 school, who took the photo records of the biggest 00:19:00.130 --> 00:19:04.509 catch of the day at a fishing charter boat in 00:19:04.509 --> 00:19:08.890 Key West. there were 50 years of daily photos 00:19:08.890 --> 00:19:11.589 of the biggest catch of the day. And using these 00:19:11.589 --> 00:19:16.269 photos, over time, she was able to show not only 00:19:16.269 --> 00:19:22.089 that the species themselves were getting smaller, 00:19:22.309 --> 00:19:25.690 so the biggest catch of the day went from being 00:19:25.690 --> 00:19:29.289 bigger species to smaller species, but also, 00:19:29.369 --> 00:19:34.980 over time, members within those species were 00:19:34.980 --> 00:19:38.559 smaller. The specimens that were caught. I say 00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:41.259 specimens because she was using them as a scientific 00:19:41.259 --> 00:19:45.339 document from the historical record. I bring 00:19:45.339 --> 00:19:49.680 this up because it's a very real way that historians 00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:53.099 can inform scientists that I don't think applies 00:19:53.099 --> 00:20:00.420 to art. I think about military tactics and understanding 00:20:00.420 --> 00:20:03.809 those. and informing current military tactics 00:20:03.809 --> 00:20:06.849 as being very akin to historians of science, 00:20:07.089 --> 00:20:12.390 where I feel like historians of art and music 00:20:12.390 --> 00:20:16.150 are more like public historians. Now, public 00:20:16.150 --> 00:20:19.190 historians are historians that, as the title 00:20:19.190 --> 00:20:22.309 suggests, their main audience is the public. 00:20:22.369 --> 00:20:27.849 So museum curators, monument developers, people 00:20:27.849 --> 00:20:34.829 who write for... popular history media like the 00:20:34.829 --> 00:20:39.549 History Channel, or even Ken Burns is a public 00:20:39.549 --> 00:20:42.529 historian through and through. This isn't someone 00:20:42.529 --> 00:20:46.910 who ignores the historical record, but is someone 00:20:46.910 --> 00:20:50.430 who digests the historical record for public 00:20:50.430 --> 00:20:53.950 consumption. It can be a very tight rope to walk, 00:20:54.089 --> 00:20:56.049 especially when you're dealing with public memory, 00:20:56.230 --> 00:21:00.769 things, events that took place during the public's 00:21:00.769 --> 00:21:03.250 lifetime or even when there were relatives of 00:21:03.250 --> 00:21:08.349 theirs alive. And I view the role of art historians 00:21:08.349 --> 00:21:12.890 and music historians to be more like that than 00:21:12.890 --> 00:21:17.069 I do a military historian or historian of science. 00:21:17.410 --> 00:21:22.529 We really want to focus on documenting the stories, 00:21:22.690 --> 00:21:27.549 the music, the influence, the tracks of influence 00:21:27.549 --> 00:21:32.599 of different artists. Rather than try and inform 00:21:32.599 --> 00:21:36.440 the artists of what has already been done. I 00:21:36.440 --> 00:21:39.299 think having a solid foundation in the history 00:21:39.299 --> 00:21:41.500 of whatever type of music you're trying to make 00:21:41.500 --> 00:21:45.299 is important. But beyond that, everything else 00:21:45.299 --> 00:21:48.240 should be recreational. Whereas with a scientist, 00:21:48.420 --> 00:21:51.819 I think having a firm understanding of your field 00:21:51.819 --> 00:21:54.460 is crucial to being successful as a scientist. 00:21:54.779 --> 00:21:57.180 And keeping up to date with new discoveries. 00:21:58.359 --> 00:22:01.500 Whereas... I've talked to plenty of musicians 00:22:01.500 --> 00:22:03.259 who don't even listen to music when they're writing 00:22:03.259 --> 00:22:07.660 music. I've talked to musicians who listen to 00:22:07.660 --> 00:22:10.000 a lot of a certain kind of music because they're 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:12.319 trying to recreate a certain kind of sound but 00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:16.240 add something in or almost create like a time 00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:21.720 capsule piece. I've talked to comedians who are 00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:26.460 trying to do something original so much so that 00:22:26.460 --> 00:22:28.410 they get in their own way. And I'm not talking 00:22:28.410 --> 00:22:30.769 about comedians on this podcast, for the record. 00:22:30.930 --> 00:22:33.829 But I've talked to comedians just in everyday 00:22:33.829 --> 00:22:36.930 life where they're so concerned with being original 00:22:36.930 --> 00:22:41.170 that they shut out the world around them and 00:22:41.170 --> 00:22:44.809 fail to then have a dialogue with other comedians 00:22:44.809 --> 00:22:49.329 in their performances or with society for that 00:22:49.329 --> 00:22:51.609 matter. I think it's much more important for 00:22:51.609 --> 00:22:54.390 an artist to understand what's going on in the 00:22:54.390 --> 00:22:59.470 world around them. The current events. And that 00:22:59.470 --> 00:23:01.470 might not be in the news. That might be in their 00:23:01.470 --> 00:23:04.690 life. But being present in the everyday life 00:23:04.690 --> 00:23:06.670 is much more important than understanding the 00:23:06.670 --> 00:23:09.569 history of their field or their craft. Whereas 00:23:09.569 --> 00:23:11.990 I think a scientist needs to walk the balance 00:23:11.990 --> 00:23:14.789 of both very carefully. Now where does this leave 00:23:14.789 --> 00:23:17.650 historians in all this? And I'm ignoring the 00:23:17.650 --> 00:23:21.509 elephant in the room. People are very concerned 00:23:21.509 --> 00:23:24.450 that we're repeating history right now and I'm 00:23:24.450 --> 00:23:28.289 not trying to get political. It would be amiss 00:23:28.289 --> 00:23:31.009 to talk about historians' role and not talk about 00:23:31.009 --> 00:23:34.230 the current administration and what a lot of 00:23:34.230 --> 00:23:39.150 historians, including myself, are saying is very 00:23:39.150 --> 00:23:42.849 similar in a lot of very substantial ways to 00:23:42.849 --> 00:23:47.869 the administration that was in Germany in 1939. 00:23:48.250 --> 00:23:50.529 And that kind of brings this whole story full 00:23:50.529 --> 00:23:54.069 circle. And so it really leaves me in kind of 00:23:54.069 --> 00:23:58.140 a despondent... discouraged place where I don't 00:23:58.140 --> 00:24:03.240 understand necessarily what good historians are 00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:05.440 if nobody's listening to them. I don't really 00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:08.619 know what else to say about that. It seems like 00:24:08.619 --> 00:24:11.880 we are dealing with two parallel situations where 00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:16.500 scientists and historians alike are screaming 00:24:16.500 --> 00:24:21.839 about signs of impending doom, whether it be 00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:27.160 with authoritarian oligarchies Or climate change. 00:24:27.579 --> 00:24:31.920 I don't know what to do when people won't listen 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:35.579 to the experts when it comes to public policy. 00:24:35.940 --> 00:24:38.119 The Catholic Church just elected a new pope. 00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:43.099 Religious people used to trust their own experts. 00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:46.240 And we even see that shifting a little bit now. 00:24:46.519 --> 00:24:51.420 But I don't understand how we can combat false 00:24:51.420 --> 00:24:55.200 information. And how we can regain the trust 00:24:55.200 --> 00:25:00.700 of anyone when they won't even trust their own 00:25:00.700 --> 00:25:03.920 authorities anymore. I'm beginning to ramble, 00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:05.980 but the point that I'm trying to make is that 00:25:05.980 --> 00:25:10.240 our appeal to expertise has crumbled not only 00:25:10.240 --> 00:25:14.119 in science and in history, but we're even starting 00:25:14.119 --> 00:25:17.720 to see it crumble in religion as well. So I think 00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:20.299 we're at a crossroads here where... To quote 00:25:20.299 --> 00:25:22.480 the drive -by truckers, we trust science just 00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:24.220 as long as it tells us what we want to hear. 00:25:24.579 --> 00:25:26.740 And we want our truths all fair and balanced, 00:25:26.819 --> 00:25:29.599 long as our notions lie within it. And the problem 00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:33.079 with all of that is that everyone thinks they're 00:25:33.079 --> 00:25:35.079 a scientist now. Everyone thinks that they're 00:25:35.079 --> 00:25:37.640 an expert in whatever it is they're talking about. 00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:39.900 And when everybody thinks they're an expert, 00:25:40.039 --> 00:25:42.500 and everybody gets treated like an expert, and 00:25:42.500 --> 00:25:45.319 everybody has a platform, I say this as a random 00:25:45.319 --> 00:25:48.000 dude with a platform, it really can elevate... 00:25:48.349 --> 00:25:50.589 some of these dissident voices in a way that 00:25:50.589 --> 00:25:54.970 can be really damaging to our society. And I've 00:25:54.970 --> 00:25:58.930 talked before about how creationism has been 00:25:58.930 --> 00:26:04.829 around for as long as creationism as a reaction 00:26:04.829 --> 00:26:07.910 to revolution has been around, as long as the 00:26:07.910 --> 00:26:10.930 theory of evolution has been. But I do think 00:26:10.930 --> 00:26:13.450 that we're seeing something new, and maybe we're 00:26:13.450 --> 00:26:17.829 not. Maybe the great joke of all of this is that 00:26:18.329 --> 00:26:21.670 No matter what, people won't end up listening 00:26:21.670 --> 00:26:23.930 to the historians. History will repeat itself. 00:26:24.470 --> 00:26:27.130 And that's why historians won't shut the fuck 00:26:27.130 --> 00:26:29.650 up about how history is going to repeat itself. 00:26:30.109 --> 00:26:32.970 This is Fettin. I don't really know what the 00:26:32.970 --> 00:26:35.470 point of this episode was when it's all said 00:26:35.470 --> 00:26:38.130 and done. But I hope you understand at least 00:26:38.130 --> 00:26:41.269 what I think my role here is. And that's mainly 00:26:41.269 --> 00:26:44.190 to capture the stories of these people and have 00:26:44.190 --> 00:26:48.130 a conversation about... their processes and what 00:26:48.130 --> 00:26:51.130 makes them unique. I'm not strictly doing oral 00:26:51.130 --> 00:26:53.349 history. I'm doing a podcast, but it's certainly 00:26:53.349 --> 00:26:56.650 inspired by social and oral history. And while 00:26:56.650 --> 00:27:01.670 I think my role as a historian is to inform the 00:27:01.670 --> 00:27:05.089 public about the history of certain ideas, I 00:27:05.089 --> 00:27:07.210 also think my role as a historian is to just 00:27:07.210 --> 00:27:09.029 document the stories of some of these people. 00:27:09.410 --> 00:27:12.789 And I hope you enjoy it. On the next episode, 00:27:12.890 --> 00:27:15.960 we're going to have Sloane Simpson. from the 00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:18.599 Sloan Brothers. He's going to talk to us about 00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:21.920 all sorts of things, from why he doesn't play 00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:25.319 live to how he got into recording music in the 00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:27.900 first place. And I'll also talk about his latest 00:27:27.900 --> 00:27:31.519 project with Jay Gonzalez. It was a split EP, 00:27:31.640 --> 00:27:35.059 and he's already working on a new project with 00:27:35.059 --> 00:27:37.359 musicians from all over Athens, Georgia, and 00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:39.740 I'll talk about that a little bit later on. Next 00:27:39.740 --> 00:27:42.279 week, we've got Jay Gonzalez. I'm not really 00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:44.390 sure what I'm going to talk about. Next week, 00:27:44.430 --> 00:27:46.450 I might just release that episode and let it 00:27:46.450 --> 00:27:49.230 simmer. This is Fedden, and you've been listening 00:27:49.230 --> 00:27:51.250 to Overeducated and Underemployed.