Welcome to Overeducated and Underemployed. I'm
Fedden, and I'm here today after taking a week
off to upgrade some equipment here in the studio.
We have a launch party, and it dawned on me that
a lot of these interviews are paired with performances.
So I upgraded some equipment, and we're going
to actually do a live recording of an interview
podcast here coming up. You'll hear more about
it in the future, but this will be the first
of many. We're going to do an interview in front
of a studio audience. That'll be really interesting.
Looking forward to that. Later on this week,
we've got Levi Crumley. He's a comedian out of
Athens, Georgia that runs, he produces a lot
of shows. He is somebody who is also a musician
and he's juggled working full time, being a musician,
producing these shows. So that was an interesting
conversation. I look forward to hearing it. Today,
we are going to talk about music games. The Nintendo
Switch 2 is coming out, and with it has a mouse
function on the new and improved consoles. I
cannot help but think that they must release
Mario Paint back on the Super Nintendo Virtual
Console to work with this mouse function. It
begs for it. Mario Paint was the first kind of
creative sandbox that I remember ever being on
a console and having extended access to, period.
I feel like there was a few on PCs, but I didn't
have a PC yet. In a lot of ways, Mario Paint
made your Super Nintendo feel like a PC. So...
They got me thinking about all the music games
that I have played over the years. Ones I still
play. New ones coming out still. And ones I haven't
played yet, but I'm excited to play. And I gotta
say, it probably all started with Mario Paint.
I'm also going to talk later on in the episode
about real world applications for some of these
games. One criticism I remember hearing a lot
in college was... Oh, well, if you spent that
much time playing real guitar as you do playing
Guitar Hero, you could maybe be a real guitarist.
Well, I think there's a lot of reasons why, A,
that's probably not always true. B, people spent
way less time playing Guitar Hero than you probably
think they did compared to somebody who needs
to learn to play guitar and takes a lot of time
doing that. Lastly, I'd really say that not Guitar
Hero in particular, but there are certainly music
games out there that have real -world applications,
whether musical or otherwise, and we'll talk
about that too. So Mario Paint was more than
just a version of Paint, more than just like
Photoshop or Microsoft Paint on a console, but
it was full of minigames, the ability to draw
pictures, The ability to make animations. The
ability to make music. And you could even put
it all together and make a little mini film with
the music you made and the little composer. Today,
I'm going to focus on the little composer, which
is probably the thing I spent the most time with
anyway. You basically had a musical staff and
you had a few MIDI sounds. And this is all from
memory. I have not played this game in a long
time. If they do put it out on the virtual console,
I will do an entire episode dedicated to Mario
Paint and reliving its glory. But as far as I
remember, you had a handful of sounds that you
could use that then you could put in different
notes on the scale. And you had like a certain
number of measures that you could do. And I feel
like it topped out at 30 seconds or something
like that when it was all said and done. But
what was able to happen was you were able to
compose your own music right there on the Super
Nintendo. Using a variety of different sound
and using a variety of different time measurements
and things like that. I do think that there was
a lot of limitations involved, but if you go
online, even today, you can see a lot of creative
things being done. And that's a theme you've
probably heard already a lot of in this podcast
is that sometimes constraint can be good for
creativity. And having a certain set of parameters
is required in order to not get lost in rabbit
holes. And sometimes just not being able to do
something makes you come up with a more creative
way of doing it. So I think there were some really
amazing things made in Mario Paint, just like
you've seen amazing things made in Minecraft
and every other kind of simple sandbox game.
This was, in a lot of ways, the first sandbox
game. You can make little animations and you
can make music, you can make movies with it in
that sense. But there's also, there's a fly swatting
game. It really, I feel like it essentially taught
kids how to learn, use a mouse. But the music
game really just a little composition maker was
really fun. And then the next game that I got
into that would be considered like a straight
up music game. And I played this incessantly.
And I'm going to talk about both of these games
as one game, just because the machines are right
next to each other at my arcade. Essentially
the same game with a different footpad layout,
but I'm going to talk about Dance Dance Revolution
and Pump It Up. Now, Pump It Up was just a Korean
company that made a dance game akin to Dance
Revolution. If Dance Revolution had the four
directions up, down, left, right, Pump It Up
had pads in the opposite places. So there was
one in the middle and there was one in the four
corners. Think about a five on a die. Where DDR
looked more like a control pad on a Nintendo.
So you had the ability to have totally different
moves. There was different music licensed. Very
little crossover because one was a Japanese company
and one was a Korean company. And it was actually...
The first foray of K -pop into the United States
that I was ever aware of. I'm sure that it wasn't
the first, but that was the first time me and
a lot of my friends ever heard K -pop. And I
gotta say, it never really stuck for me, but
there was music in that game that I came away
really liking, including like a remix of Beethoven's
Ninth or something like that, or Beethoven's
Fifth, I can't remember. But it introduced me
also to the concept of classical music. And I'm
talking, I was like 8, 9, 10 years old at this
point, of classical music being able to be more
than just classical music and not just being
stuck in a box. And that remake stuck with me.
There was a couple of K -pop songs that I can't
remember now, but I remember. I didn't go buy
the album or anything, but I enjoyed listening
to them when other people played the same song
on the game. And I will say, though, that...
Eventually, I think dance games did get me into
some music that I never would have listened to
and that music that I did listen to independently
of the game. And I'll talk about that when we
get there. But I don't think this game got me
into any music that I went and listened to out
on my own. That hadn't happened yet. But it did
get me into music and make me appreciate music
that I don't think I ever would have been exposed
to at that age, certainly. And also, it was certainly
never anything that was on the radio at that
point. And this was long before streaming services
or really the internet had much ability to share
music at all. So at a certain point, it just
becomes this issue where, so at a certain point,
I think like any exposure to music you wouldn't
hear otherwise is good, especially if you end
up digging it. But as somebody who wasn't super
into anime, wasn't seeking out Japanese or Korean
pop, it exposed me to a whole different world
of music that I only really listened to when
playing the game, but I played that game a lot.
And then I think it really set me up for just
being really open -minded about music in a way
that even when I got to work at independent record
stores, I felt like... On some levels, I was
more open to different things than they were
because they would, a lot of my coworkers, be
a lot more close -minded about pop and what it
could be or couldn't be. And I'm not going to
be wrong, a lot of it was garbage, but because
it was such an independent vibe, anything that
had clean production was really dismissed. I
think that and then working at those stores is
what really set me up to have such a diverse
taste in music. I think that really leads me
nicely into the next game or series of games
that I was obsessed with. There were several
Dance Revolution games and Pump It Up games,
but came Guitar Hero and Rock Band. And Guitar
Hero was fun, but I think I really started to
enjoy it when the full band setup came out. You
could essentially have karaoke along. I've always
been a fan of karaoke, personally. But then also
the drum set was really great. And I think of
all the instruments in Rock Band that I played,
I never did play the edition with keyboards.
But of all the instruments that I played in Rock
Band, I would say that the drums were most like
playing the real instrument. But the nice thing
about the multiplayer is... People with no musical
inclination or people that liked karaoke or people
that just wanted to watch other people goof around.
I think there was a kind of a place for everybody
in your friend group with that game. I would
have groups of people over. We'd rotate out band
members. Some of us would just watch. Some of
us would sing harmonies. I remember when Beatles
Rock Band came out. It was the first one that
had harmonies built into the game. And we spent
a lot of time with that. It was... And it was
also, I think, the first one that allowed you
to build kind of set lists where you could play
one song after the other without a pause or a
break. And they would let you play sequences
from Beatles albums. And I just thought that
was always a lot of fun. Really, the Beatles
rock band kind of was set apart, I think, from
the rest of rock band and Guitar Hero. really
they were made by the same people or the same
company and then just a lot of rights got bounced
around and some of it was like controllers and
some of it was the company that made controllers
eventually started making games but at the end
of the day they made a really long lasting series
of games that i still play rock band four or
maybe it's guitar here i think it's rock band
once in a blue moon now i still have a setup
for it but i think like it was the multiplayer
much like with Dance Revolution and Pump It Up,
there was multiplayer game modes. I remember
a competition we had at our local arcade where
people would do routines where they ended up
switching pads in the middle of the dance and
things like that. And then with Rock Band, you
had the same kind of collaboration. Just say
what you will about the technical aspects of
it, but I think it really did capture what it
feels like to play with a group of people. Especially
when you got in sync and the singer nailed it.
It was a lot of fun. And I don't know that there
was much practicing going involved except maybe
singing or drumming. But the guitar, you really
just were getting some basic rhythm skills and
nothing else. And I think, if anything, it helped
me as like a non -player. And I never learned
to play guitar very well because I'm left -handed.
I only had right -handed teachers. They didn't
really know what to do with me. Hit a ceiling
very quickly every time I learned how to play.
And I just think it was harder for me to learn
than a lot of other people. I have big hands,
big meaty hands that can be difficult. But I
think Guitar Hero was a good outlet for me to
learn what guitar parts sounded like by themselves.
Songs sound really weird when you miss the guitar
solos in Guitar Hero. So you learn to pick them
out really well. I think it did change the way
I listen to music a little bit. Just listening
to all the different parts a little bit more
individually. And that game was more than just
a game. It was something we did pretty frequently
for a few years where we'd have get -togethers
based around it. Multiple groups of friends,
too, at different points in time. I think there's
something to be said about feeling like you're
part of the music. I think video games are all
about living out fantasy. It definitely did a
pretty good job of letting you live out the rock
star fantasy to an extent. Certainly like the
garage band fantasy, even if you had no musical
talent. But I think what's important is like
the tactile feeling of feeling like you had an
impact on the music by what you were doing. So
if you missed a guitar part or note, you didn't
hear that note played in the song on screen.
And they created some group dynamics too. It
was like, oh man, you fucked that part up and
we all wanted to hear it or whatever. But I think
there's also like an aspect of it where it was
like competitive, but not, but we all still root
each other on because we were part of the same
band. But I think it captured something that
not a lot of other games really had captured
yet where what you did impacted how the game
sound in the sense that With Dance Revolution,
I feel like if you missed dance parts, I don't
feel like it skipped parts of the song. If you
missed a certain number, you'd fail out. But
I don't recall there being a certain amount where
you just had to get the note. I feel like there
wasn't any part of the game where it stopped
playing the song just based on the actual steps
you missed. I've also dabbled in games like Just
Dance, but then I really got into a game that
exists on console, PC, but I think the ultimate
version of it is in virtual reality called Tetris
Effect Connected. Now, the gameplay is just Tetris,
but in the same way that Guitar Hero makes you
have a tactile connection to the music, Tetris
Connected actually really takes it to a whole
new level. Every time you move a piece, It creates
some synesthesia in the background and affects
notes and sounds based on whatever level and
song you're playing. Each level is a different
song. The music is from all over the world. And
the song progresses as you clear lines. And so
clearing the lines and rhythm is very satisfying.
But also, every time you move a piece, it affects
the background. Not just colors, but the way
things move. and what you hear and so it creates
this whole complete experience of sound and color
and tactile feeling where just rotating a tetris
piece has a huge impact on the environment around
you and you play through the levels and they
get increasingly more difficult and you reach
a meditative state i must say you start to have
the tetris effect right there in the game where
you're just in the zone And I think the music
aids you in getting there very quickly. It also
turned me on to some music I'd never listened
to before. Music that I have gone back and listened
to outside of the game. And the next two games
I'm going to talk about are also virtual reality.
And one of them is debatably not even a game.
But Tetris Effect Connected is the finest example
of how a regular game can incorporate music.
to make it more than what it was before. And
a game that's 40 years old plus remains super
fresh. Because at its core, the gameplay is still
just Tetris. Beat Saber is a game that I've played
a lot of in virtual reality as well. A lot of
y 'all are probably familiar with it. You have
lightsabers in your hands. You slice blocks to
the rhythm of music as they fly at you in a 3D
space in virtual reality. Once again, the tactile
feeling of slicing through the blocks on rhythm.
There's haptic feedback in the controllers. You
do feel it when you slice through the blocks.
They're flying at your face, moving faster than
you can really turn to look at. And once again,
you get into kind of a meditative dance space.
And this game has gotten me into artists that
I'd heard and didn't really even care about.
It's not like I'd never heard of them before.
But I got into their music because their levels
in Beat Saber were just so fun that listening
to their music later, it was almost just like
a Pavlovian association where I was like, oh
my God, I like this because I had fun playing
this level. And I started to understand at that
point in my life, I'm not a person that goes
to the club to go dancing or to listen to DJs
or anything like that. That's not really ever
been my scene. I love going to live music. I
love... techno music and house music and dance
music but i've never really gone to the club
to listen to it but i started to understand how
there were songs that i didn't necessarily like
or even think were that great but super popular
because of like club scenes and it's usually
because of like the experience associated with
that song maybe you just had a really fun night
at the club and that song was part of it And
so that song continues to be, or a song is just
a certain amount of fun in certain settings where
it might not have been as fun in another setting.
So I think there's something to be said about
different experiences involving music, increasing
your appreciation for different types of music.
I think if you might not. really understand this
the appeal of swing music unless you got into
swing dancing at some point or really understand
the appeal of certain types of house music unless
you understand like the lineage that led there
or i'm just spitballing examples here but my
point is it's everything's sometimes context
is important sometimes it can be detrimental
but i think There's different types of music
for different types of situations. We don't often
sit around and listen to movie scores unless
we associate that movie with good feelings. And
I think about the interview that I had with J.
Roddy Walston where he was talking about the
Wayne's World soundtrack. And if you haven't
listened to that, go back and listen to it. Hit
subscribe, all that good stuff. But Roddy was
talking about how initially they were listening
to the Wayne's World soundtrack just because
they loved the movie. They wanted to capture
the feeling that they had when they watched the
movie, he and his friends. They ended up loving
a lot of the music from the soundtrack just because
they had listened to it so much. And objectively,
mostly fantastic music. There's no reason that's
a surprise that they ended up liking that music.
But the point is how they got there. And how
they got there was because they were trying to
capture the experience of the movie again. It
wasn't like back then. It wasn't like now where
you could just pop the movie on streaming anytime
you wanted. They had all seen it in the theater
one summer, and they got the soundtrack, and
that made them re -experience the film again.
And then they ended up loving the music from
the soundtrack. So I think that type of experience
is pretty universal just depending on the situation,
right? There could just be a song that reminds
you of something very personal. that you really
like or it could just be some weird association
with a fun time or it could just because you
have affinity for the goddamn song and you don't
have to justify it to anybody but my point is
that when you shut yourself off to certain experiences
or certain types of music because you haven't
had certain i think you're probably doing yourself
a disservice but it also makes sense to me why
There's certain music that certain people just
won't really see the appeal of unless they've
had certain experiences that go along with it.
And that kind of leads me, Beat Saber, I just
want to talk about that for another minute. The
level design in that game is beautiful. Each
artist typically has its own themed background.
There's a queen song pack that I think of that
has fantastic backgrounds and level design. And
the game's just a lot of fun, and you get lost
in your own little world of dance. And I've got
thunder here, so I'm going to get off here in
just a second. But what I wanted to talk about
mainly to end this with is application more than
anything than a game in virtual reality as well
called TribeXR. TribeXR is actually a DJ simulation
suite that gives you access to... virtual versions
of full techniques, turntables and CDJs and professional
grade equipment using your own music library
and has real life DJs that will meet with you
in VR and give you lessons. Is this a game or
is this a training module or does it matter?
Because you can get in there and just play and
have fun, but you are working with real equipment.
I think you are learning skills that are transferable
to the real world when you use the same type
of equipment. And I'll leave a link in the description
of this episode for TribeXR. I think it's really
worth checking out. TribeXR has a whole community
surrounding it. DJs having sets with people in
the room, in the virtual room with them, sharing
the same virtual space. And if you've never done
virtual reality, I know this is hard to comprehend
to an extent, but... I think when you hear my
interview that's coming up in a few weeks with
Tommy Simbazo, who is a comedian who hosts an
open night comedy night every Monday night, but
has also done a lot of professional work, has
opened for people like Stavros. He's done Stavros'
podcast. I believe his nipple became viral on
that podcast. I don't mean that he caught a virus.
I mean that it went really popular on the interweb.
But what I will say... When you're sharing a
space with a person, your suspension of disbelief
is pretty great that you're not in the same room
until you try and actually touch them. Yes, you
might be talking to a cartoon version of them,
but you feel like you're sharing a physical space.
You can interact with the same space and objects
in that space, the same people in that space.
And so these DJ sets in TribeX are done by DJs
with people in the room watching them. are quite
interesting and very much feel like you're in
the room with a real dj they are real djs it's
really interesting though where vr has gone and
i think it's gone more direction of things like
music games like beat saber i don't think we'll
ever die completely community type things like
vr chat and then you have horizon worlds and
some of those other social platforms and then
Really, at its core, TribeXR is also a social
platform. But having these communities surrounding
music in games, in VR, just makes sense to me.
There's actually raves in virtual reality, in
VR chat, with live DJs and light shows that you
couldn't even create in real life. And my point
is just that music has been an integral part
of gaming, and now gaming is becoming an integral
part of music. and I'm not even sure where the
line is when it comes to something like TribeXR.
I highly encourage you to check out all of the
games I've talked about today. If there's a music
game that you love that I have not talked about,
shoot me an email at feddunxr at gmail .com.
That's F -E -D -D -U -N -X -R at gmail .com.
Tell me about the game that I missed. I'll play
it, and I'll talk about it in a sequel episode
to this one. Make sure to come back later this
week for my interview with Levi Crumley. We talked
for almost two hours, trimmed out some of the
fat, the ums, the uhs, got it down to about 90
minutes. I'm going to release this one in one
chunk for you guys. Try something a little different.
I've split up my previous interviews. I'm going
to put this one out in one episode and see what
happens. And then next week, we're going to have
Sloan Simpson from the Sloan Brothers. how he
never plays live music and still manages to work
with some of the most amazing artists out there.
He'll talk also about his project with Jay Gonzalez
of the Drive -By Truckers. And then Jay Gonzalez,
in a couple of weeks, will be on the show. We
got a lot planned for you guys, so make sure
you hit that subscribe button. This has been
Overeducated and Underemployed. I'm Fedden. Have
a great day. Thank you.