1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:20,320 This is Last Wild Places, a Patagon Journal podcast where adventurers, conservationists 2 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:29,720 and other inspiring guests share their stories about nature's last frontiers. 3 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,240 Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode. I'm Lily Alford. 4 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,720 And I'm Jimmy Langman, the executive editor of Patagon Journal. In the Last Wild Places 5 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:42,440 podcast, we'll be exploring wild places around the world from a variety of perspectives. 6 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:49,000 Conservation, science, expeditions, adventures, indigenous peoples, outdoor sports and more. 7 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:53,840 Today's guest is Leon McCarron, an explorer and journalist from Northern Ireland. Among 8 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:58,320 his many outdoor adventures all over the planet, he has been a presenter for a BBC film about 9 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:03,480 sailing in the Arctic, journeyed by bike from New York to Hong Kong, walked 3000 miles across 10 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:08,360 China for a four part National Geographic Asia series and walked 1000 miles through 11 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:13,760 the largest sand desert on earth. Now a consultant on developing hiking trails, Leon and his 12 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:18,080 partner are based near the Zagros Mountains in the Kurdistan region of Iraq, where he 13 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:22,080 helped develop the trail network there and continues to assist the burgeoning local hiking 14 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:26,860 community to keep those mountains protected and is also at work planning the first long-distance 15 00:01:26,860 --> 00:01:33,520 hiking trail in Iraq. Leon's amazing adventures have given him great insight into the beauty 16 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:38,760 inherent in wild places and the need to protect them. Some of his adventures are featured in 17 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:44,600 his three books, Wounded Tigress, A River Journey Through the Cradle of Civilization, 18 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:49,600 The Land Beyond, 1000 Miles on Foot Through the Middle East and The Road Headed West, 19 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:54,800 A Cycling Adventure Through North America. We're excited to have him on the show. Each 20 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,600 episode we also have the Backstory where we talk to the writers from each issue of the 21 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:03,360 Patagon Journal to get a deeper perspective on their stories. Today's Backstory is with 22 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:09,440 Ximena Martinez about her article, "Iceland, Heart of Ice and Fire" from issue 27. We hope 23 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:11,400 you enjoy the episode. 24 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:23,520 Hello, Leon McCarron. Welcome to the Last Wild Places podcast. We appreciate it greatly 25 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:28,160 that you're able to give us some time. We understand you're in Jordan, constantly traveling 26 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:33,280 all over the Middle East. We feel very honored to have you on the show. When I look over 27 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:42,240 your career, it's pretty amazing all the places you've gone. You almost seem like a modern-day 28 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:47,440 Indiana Jones with all the things. You're a modern-day adventurer like Indiana Jones. 29 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:52,280 What inspired you to do all that? I mean, it's amazing all the things you've done. What 30 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:59,800 inspired you as a young man to follow this amazing path you've gone down? 31 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:04,880 Well, first, thank you. Thank you for a number of things. Thank you for inviting me on. And 32 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:13,120 thank you for comparing me to Indiana Jones. That's very generous. No, I mean, I've been 33 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:22,080 really lucky. I grew up in a very rural part of the north of Ireland. And I grew up on 34 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:31,320 a farm. I didn't really leave the island until I went to Scotland a couple of times because 35 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:36,040 I had family there. But I didn't really leave the British Isles, let's say, until after 36 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:43,360 university. And I had this idea that I wanted to go and see some of the world before I started 37 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:54,800 into whatever career would take over the rest of my life. But I wanted to do it slowly and 38 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,680 really feel as much of it as I could. And I had this idea of getting a bicycle and just 39 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:04,560 seeing how far I could ride it before I ran out of my savings. So when I finished studying, 40 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:10,200 I saved up for a year. That was my pot of money to go off and ride my bike. I flew to 41 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:19,080 New York City because that was just a city that it felt it kind of felt familiar, yet 42 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:24,480 foreign to me. It was the same language. So I could start off with that. I mean, it turns 43 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:29,000 out the United States is incredibly foreign to someone coming from Ireland, but at least 44 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:34,720 it seemed culturally familiar because I'd grown up with so much media and influence 45 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:43,360 from the US. And then I just rode my bike. And it was an amazing experience. I lasted 46 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:48,800 about a year and a half before my savings ran out and I went home. But that showed me 47 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:54,720 just the beauty and size of the world. It showed me how varied it is. It showed me how 48 00:04:54,720 --> 00:05:02,960 kind people are. It showed me how beautiful in so many different ways the world can be. 49 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:10,560 And it showed me, in keeping with the theme of this podcast, it showed me where these 50 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:18,240 wild places were and how they made me as a traveler, an outsider arriving into them feel. 51 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:25,000 And also every single one of them felt somehow under attack, somehow diminishing, somehow 52 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:32,880 shrinking, somehow being squeezed. And that really stuck with me as well, that I could 53 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:41,720 ride my bike for 14, 15,000 miles, 22,000 kilometers, something like that, and pass 54 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:48,080 through all these incredible places and still get a sense that we were losing so much. I 55 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:51,440 was gaining so much personally, but I could see so much was getting lost in the world 56 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:57,640 anyway. I think that's what sent me off. And then I just avoided getting a real job 57 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:04,800 ever since. And I started writing, I started making films, started trying to tell stories 58 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:14,880 and finding ways to turn it into a career as well as a passion. And that was kind of 59 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:20,360 a scarily long time ago. And that was 2010, I set off my bike trip. So it's coming up 60 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,640 to a decade and a half I've been doing this. 61 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:28,120 That's the bike trip, that's the subject of your book, The Road Headed West, the cycling 62 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,520 adventure through North America. Is that the same? 63 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:37,800 Correct. Yeah. I only wrote about the first part of it, simply because in the way in which 64 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,560 I was traveling, I didn't feel like I was going deep enough to have any great insights 65 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:50,160 about a lot of the later places I passed through in Southeast Asia and so on through into China. 66 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:56,320 But and I didn't speak any of those languages, so I was having quite a surface level interaction. 67 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:02,600 But in that first part of the trip, I was a young man kind of setting off across the 68 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:08,160 United States at a pretty interesting time in the country. So that book was kind of a, 69 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:12,880 I wanted it to do two things. I wanted it to be a rite of passage story of what happens 70 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:22,480 if you set off on a bike and they're pretty clueless and under prepared, but enthusiastic. 71 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:28,160 And also to see this cross section of a country that I felt I knew, but which of course is 72 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:35,800 so incredibly different in all sorts of ways. And so that was the first book, was just that 73 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:36,800 first section. 74 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,240 How long did it take you to do that trip? 75 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:45,560 I think it took me to get across the United States and well North America because I went 76 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,240 up and down into Canada a couple of times. I think it was about three to four months. 77 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:54,240 So I was going pretty slow. I mean, some people do that in, I don't know, nine, 10 days, something 78 00:07:54,240 --> 00:08:02,440 like that. I was taking my time stopping off places. Because I was trying to make my budget 79 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:07,640 last as long as possible. I was camping and mostly eating peanut butter that I bought 80 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:13,720 from stores, not consignment stores where it was out of date. And so I was living on 81 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:18,720 three, four dollars a day. And it just, it was such a great sense of freedom. Such a 82 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:23,400 privilege to have that sense of freedom where I had everything I needed on the side of my 83 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:28,720 bike. I could put up my tent anywhere. I had lentils and peanut butter and a few apples 84 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:35,960 in the back of my panniers. And it was amazing. It was such a sense of freedom. So I was encouraged 85 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:36,960 to go slowly. 86 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:43,000 Where you spend time in the cities, in the parks and cities, what kind of places were 87 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:44,000 you seeing along the way? 88 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:50,520 I was seeing a little bit of everything. I think to begin with, I tried to plan my journey. 89 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:58,160 And this was, I mean, I'm aware I'm increasingly sounding very old and also kind of a Luddite. 90 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:04,400 But I didn't have a smartphone. I didn't have any technology with me on that trip. And smartphones 91 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:09,320 weren't a thing yet. So I was just carrying paper maps that an organization called the 92 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:15,520 Adventure Cycling Association in the US had produced. And that was helpful in kind of 93 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:20,120 helping to write me onto smaller roads. And I tried to, I looked initially to go into 94 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:24,720 cities because I'd heard of them. I wanted to go into, even if it was smaller cities 95 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:29,480 like Buffalo, New York or Syracuse or whatever, I started the trip, I'd go into them. And 96 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:35,400 then I realized that actually cycling in and out of cities was kind of a hassle. And as 97 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:41,280 all when you arrive in a city by car or by plane or whatever, you don't feel how a city 98 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:48,880 grows. You arrive by bicycle or as I've done more in recent years on foot, you really see 99 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:55,600 how industrial estates, agriculture blends into industrial estates, blends into suburbs, 100 00:09:55,600 --> 00:10:03,040 blends into city center and you feel all that. And it's kind of interesting, but it's noisy 101 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:08,600 and busy and polluted. So in the end, I would mostly just try and stick to smaller roads, 102 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:15,280 smaller places, smaller communities. It was easier to meet people. And then certainly 103 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:19,120 in the US, I just looked for the big national parks as well and tried to ride through as 104 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:20,120 many of those as I could. 105 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:24,640 When I first started in the magazine, I came across something that you wrote about the 106 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:29,520 Rio Santa Cruz. You did a trip with, I guess, Tom Allen, is that right? 107 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:34,560 My friend Tom Allen and then an Argentinian friend called Jose Argento, three of us traveled 108 00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:35,560 together. 109 00:10:35,560 --> 00:10:40,280 And I came across an article that you wrote for a sidetrack about the last six wars on 110 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:46,200 the Santa Cruz. I was just reading it again recently and came across some interesting 111 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:52,040 lines. You talked about the step, traveling in the step on horseback. Sometimes the winds 112 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:59,000 were 120 kilometers an hour at times. So that's practically like a hurricane force. And you 113 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:05,640 wrote, if this sounds miserable at times, and that's good, it often was. Misery, of 114 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:11,000 course, is key to a successful expedition. Any fool can go to the other side of the world 115 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:16,840 and be happy. There's a huge sense of reward to be had in pushing oneself to deal with 116 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:22,400 and perhaps even thrive in such circumstances. It is so often the hardships that help illuminate 117 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:30,320 clearly the beauty and wonder around us. That to me seems to encapsulate a lot of what is 118 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:36,840 about to go out into wild places. What did you learn from that trip and how did Patagonia 119 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:37,840 affect you? 120 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:42,840 Yeah, of course. Thank you for finding that and reading it. What strikes me is I definitely 121 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:50,240 wrote that when I was a younger fan. The desire to go and be miserable is maybe leading me 122 00:11:50,240 --> 00:12:04,200 these days. For as long as I could remember, I wanted to visit Patagonia. I had been very 123 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:11,600 fortunate to visit Mongolia, which was the second expedition that I did. I walked with 124 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:18,520 a friend, Rob Lillwall, from across the Gobi Desert of Mongolia and down through China. 125 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:26,080 In my head, from my rural upbringing in Ireland, the two great wild places of the world were 126 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:33,520 Mongolia and Patagonia. They held a special place in my imagination. Sometimes that's 127 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:40,440 really what matters. There's other great wild places I've since learned, but sometimes the 128 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:47,600 perception is actually the key part. For me, those were the high point, the zenith of wilderness. 129 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:55,480 When I got an opportunity to go in 2014 to Patagonia, it was because I'd read just in 130 00:12:55,480 --> 00:13:02,160 passing a newspaper story about the Rio Santa Cruz, which was at the time the last large 131 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:08,800 free flowing glacial river in the Argentine side of Patagonia. There was plans to build 132 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:15,120 two enormous dams on it. The construction was due to begin quite quickly. I spoke to 133 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:19,640 my friend Tom, who was a talented filmmaker. At the time, we didn't know Jose very well, 134 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:24,040 but he was an experienced horseman and very passionate about his country. The three of 135 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:30,880 us, within a few weeks, decided to go and do it, find a couple of outdoor brands to 136 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:40,680 cover the costs. We flew out and we bought five horses. We bought them in El Calafate, 137 00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:44,360 which was the end point of the journey. Then we transported them out to the Atlantic coast 138 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:51,960 and started to ride back upstream. We were also following in the footsteps, I suppose, 139 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:59,880 of Charles Darwin, who had traveled up that river with Captain Fitzroy as part of the 140 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:07,360 surveying expedition. Darwin had left these diaries about his whole time on the Beagle, 141 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:13,400 but quite detailed diaries about his journey up the Santa Cruz. Mostly, he was quite miserable. 142 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:18,640 He didn't really want to be an explorer. He kind of found all this stuff pretty tiresome. 143 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:23,720 I found it amazing to be walking. We were on horseback, but following the shingle from 144 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:32,760 the estuary up this river and imagining that in 1834, maybe, I'm not sure if that's correct, 145 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:38,000 but whenever Darwin was there, they'd been doing the same thing. He'd been picking up 146 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:42,320 these pieces of shingle and seeing fossilized sea creatures in it and starting to have these 147 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:47,200 thoughts for the first time that maybe the world is not as it always was and maybe something 148 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:53,680 has changed. This is a big part of the development of his thinking. To me, that was fascinating. 149 00:14:53,680 --> 00:15:02,440 And to just be able to ride these horses for hundreds of kilometers along this river, to 150 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:07,600 be able to drink from this river and fish in this river and live alongside of this archery 151 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:16,280 that kept us sustained and to not encounter fences and not encounter obstacles. There 152 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:21,240 are the estanciers that have been there for a long time, but there's fewer and fewer of 153 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:28,800 those because the market didn't sustain them anymore. It was a very isolated journey in 154 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:36,760 lots of ways, which made it feel all the more wild. Things like that are such a great reminder 155 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:46,840 of how reliant we are on the planet. When you're in a landscape like that, you realize, firstly, 156 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:52,840 we realized that we were completely reliant on our horses and this bond between the five 157 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:57,600 of them and the three of us. We were completely reliant on one another and those human and 158 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:03,760 social relationships. And most of all, we depended on that river. Without the water 159 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:10,280 from that river and without the purity of it for all of our needs, we would not have 160 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:16,640 lasted. It's very humbling to be in such a situation like that. The world we live in 161 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:21,440 today doesn't encourage us to be in positions like that. Everything is provided for us at 162 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:30,480 all times and we're totally disconnected from nature. I'm sure this is something you both 163 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,960 think about a lot and it's something I think about a lot, but the fact that we buy our 164 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,520 food in plastic packages in the supermarket and we have no idea where it comes from, whether 165 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:43,680 it's meat or vegetables or whatever else, of course it means we don't think about it 166 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:48,120 and we don't understand where it comes from and we have to work hard to care about the 167 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:54,640 cost. So I think for me, that was a big part of this journey. I've rarely felt as connected 168 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:59,520 to the world around me as we did at that point in time. 169 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:06,720 The construction of the dams, I think they're now talking about completion in 2027 or 2028. 170 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:13,240 So it's actually been a bit longer than was first expected. How can you describe the experience 171 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:19,640 of knowing that there was going to be a massive impact on the ecosystem as a result and how 172 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,640 that affected your experience? 173 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:32,960 Sure, yeah. I mean, at the time it was all quite uncertain. We spoke to a few people 174 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:40,320 with the most who were willing to speak to us in Buenos Aires and then also in El Calafate 175 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:45,280 and it seemed like construction was pretty imminent and actually when we got there, there 176 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:52,080 was already some work going on. We saw some heavy machinery, some excavators, we saw some 177 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:58,600 land that had been cleared and it looked like it was going to happen within a couple of 178 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:03,880 years. I mean, as it turned out, there was quite shortly after that, there was quite 179 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:10,240 a surprising result in the elections and the government changed. And so that was the first 180 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:19,400 of what's been a number of upheavals in politics in Argentina and that put a banner in the 181 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:26,940 works, I guess. And it does seem like it's happening, it's just on a longer timeframe. 182 00:18:26,940 --> 00:18:32,320 But I guess if I look back at what we were trying to imagine, we were looking at this 183 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:37,400 pristine landscape and it really was a pristine landscape and just trying to imagine what 184 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:44,080 that would look like when a huge proportion of it became a reservoir backed up behind 185 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:50,520 a dam. And I've since done a lot of work on rivers in other parts of the world, particularly 186 00:18:50,520 --> 00:19:00,080 in the Middle East. And my last book was about the river Tigris, predominantly in Iraq, but 187 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:04,360 it starts in Turkey and runs to the northeast Syria. And the Tigris has got a huge number 188 00:19:04,360 --> 00:19:09,040 of dams and the headwaters, Tigris and its sister of relief riddies. And most of them 189 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,760 have been completed, almost all of them have been completed. And so that was a case of 190 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:20,200 seeing things at the other end. In Turkey, there's one area called Hassan Keef, which 191 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:26,840 was a very well-known town, one of the oldest continually inhabited settlements on earth, 192 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:36,240 12,000 years of recorded human history with hundreds of archaeological sites, plus a modern 193 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:45,320 day population who live there and quite a well-known tourist destination. And it was 194 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:54,600 flooded as part of a dam called Alisu alongside hundreds of other archaeological sites and 195 00:19:54,600 --> 00:20:02,640 villages and so on. And when I visited, I never got to see it in its glory, but I saw 196 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:08,600 the pictures. And instead, what I saw was just this very sparse place that the inhabitants 197 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,840 who stayed were moved to a village a couple of hundred meters up on a hillside and it 198 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:19,080 was barren and cold. And actually, the Turkish government poured a layer of concrete over 199 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:26,800 much of the old town to form a stronger foundation for the dam. And the juxtaposition between 200 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:32,520 what we experienced versus what had been there just, that was 2021 I was there, it was 2019 201 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:37,120 that the water was released. So the juxtaposition was huge. So if I go back to the Rio Santa 202 00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:43,280 Cruz, that was kind of what we were looking at then was, it's almost unfathomable. You 203 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:50,400 look at this, it feels like perfection when you're in the natural world like that and 204 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:58,000 you have these mountains in the distance, you've got this incredible ribbon of life 205 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:04,920 in the river and this kind of cobalt blue. You have Wanakos running around, there's flamingos 206 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:09,920 further upstream. There isn't a huge human population, but there are some. And then of 207 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:16,720 course at the source of it is the Perito Moreno glacier, which was also, that was one of the 208 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:23,920 biggest impacts that was projected for this was that raising the water level would affect 209 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:30,000 the stability of the glacier. And so what we tried to do was just to look at what gets 210 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:35,240 lost. And in some ways, the Rio Santa Cruz was an interesting case study because there 211 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:42,080 wasn't a huge human population that was going to be displaced. Whereas in many parts of 212 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:46,560 the Middle East, I've been in, there is that element of it too. But here it was much more 213 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:56,960 a case of nature versus progress. And maybe progress isn't the right word because it can 214 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:03,480 be defined in lots of different ways. But the growing population, the big cities of 215 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:11,680 Argentina expect and can expect to live a certain quality of life and be provided with 216 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:17,880 electricity to run air conditioning units. And so that's what people have been, that's 217 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:23,680 how we developed and the expectations we have for the society we live in. But in order to 218 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:30,160 get that, are we willing to destroy the last wild places on earth in a very permanent way, 219 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:37,160 in a way that can never be undone? And what is the cost of that? Because the cost is not, 220 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:46,060 there's a huge intangible cost to it as well in terms of what we lose culturally and environmentally 221 00:22:46,060 --> 00:22:51,880 and beyond a cost that can be measured in dollars or pesos or whatever. 222 00:22:51,880 --> 00:23:00,560 Well, in Chile, where we're based, there also were around that same time, some big hydroelectric 223 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:07,520 dam projects planned for the Rio Baker and the Rio Pasqua in Patagonia. And eventually 224 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:12,760 the people mobilized and were able to stop it. 225 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:19,600 That's fascinating. Yeah. And that was a big source of inspiration to the activists and 226 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:25,960 environmentalists that we met in Argentina at the time was that these project leaders 227 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:33,680 have been stopped elsewhere. And over time, it's often shown to be exactly as you say, 228 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:45,760 it's fear mongering. And yeah, it's never just about the benefits that are told, right? 229 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:51,600 There's always the untold side of it and the economic value to whoever might be benefiting 230 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:52,600 from that. 231 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:57,400 Is that an issue in the Middle East, hydroelectric dams? 232 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:05,000 Yeah, it's huge. And it's been particularly huge where I've been based for the last four 233 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:15,040 and a half years in the Kurdistan region and the north Iraq. But largely the whole of Mesopotamia 234 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:20,000 was the name that the Greeks gave to this area, the land between two rivers. And these 235 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:26,760 days that roughly translates as it's mostly Iraq, but it's parts of Syria, it's parts 236 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:32,840 of Turkey and reaches out towards Iran. But it's the floodplain that the Tigris and the 237 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:41,040 Euphrates irrigate. And those two rivers, I mean, a very, very brief history in about 238 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:46,360 60 seconds is that 12,000 years ago, humans were living as hunter gatherers up in the 239 00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:51,240 mountains, the Taurus Mountains in Turkey and the Zagros Mountains, they're not in Iran. 240 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:56,320 But they could see this floodplain down below. And so over the course of about 4,000 years, 241 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:01,120 they slowly began to move down and abandon the nomadic hunter gatherer lifestyle and 242 00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:07,080 start to work with these rivers and experiment with crop planting and animal husbandry. And 243 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:14,320 as successful over the next 4,000 years, they moved further south still and at the areas 244 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:20,520 on the banks of the river where their experiments were most productive, people gathered in greater 245 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,000 and greater numbers. And those became the first settlements, the first cities in the 246 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:30,920 world. And from that, we got the world's first civilizations, the first written word came 247 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:38,320 from there, and the world's first universities and legal systems and sailing boats and the 248 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:43,400 first beer was brewed and the first love songs were written and possibly the... I can go 249 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:48,880 on, I can go on. But anyway, lots of really wonderful things came from that point in time. 250 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:54,560 And now we're at a point where those two rivers that quite literally irrigated the earliest 251 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:59,640 civilizations and have left an imprint on how we live our lives today have been damned 252 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:05,320 almost to the point at which they no longer flow to their conclusion. Both the Tiger's 253 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:14,240 Neferage are predicted by perhaps 2040 to no longer reach the Gulf. And there's a few 254 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:23,000 factors to that. Poor governance of the waterways within the countries that they flow through, 255 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:28,440 climate change is a factor, although it's actually a lesser factor than some of the 256 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:34,440 others and a lack of effective water sharing agreements between the countries that they 257 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:42,200 run through. And so Turkey is undergoing severe water shortages and is holding back a huge 258 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:47,840 amount of water of the Tiger's Neferage. So the Tiger's in particular last year received 259 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:55,560 60% less water into Iraq than it did in 2015. And that's just not sustainable for the people 260 00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:02,240 who live there. So these are huge, huge issues without, I mean, in the Middle East, everyone's 261 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:08,160 been talking about oil for the last 70 years, but now they're talking about water. And that's 262 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:18,200 what everything from every aspect of life will revolve around that. And I think it's 263 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:23,880 probably the same where you are too. Water is becoming increasingly understood as this 264 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,480 resource which we can't just do whatever we like with. 265 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:34,520 Right. I mean, you did a book about the Tigris, right? 266 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:42,320 I did, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which took about four and a bit years to produce and then came 267 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:43,620 out last year. 268 00:27:43,620 --> 00:27:49,320 What did you learn in doing that book about how the river has affected these communities? 269 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:56,040 I mean, I think the biggest, it's affected people in so many different ways. And I think 270 00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:01,400 that's probably true for a lot of places. Of course, it's a lifeline. It's quite literally 271 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:10,480 the source of people's sustenance. So Iraq is from those early days until now has predominantly 272 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:17,480 relied on agriculture and much of the country is made up of pastoralists and people who 273 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:27,200 fish for a living. And so if the river no longer flows or is poisoned, it affects those people. 274 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,880 But that's happening and that's happening at a terrifyingly quick rate. And the country 275 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:37,240 really is on an environmental precipice of that. But the river also has a huge cultural 276 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:44,320 impact too. And I know Iraq and the Tigris well from this work, but I'm sure the same 277 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:48,800 is true for many other places. You look at literature, you look at the arts, you look 278 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:56,960 at songs and poetry. And so often when they come from cities and communities that are 279 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:04,480 along rivers and countries through which rivers are an integral part of their story, people 280 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:12,440 write about these things. Rivers are the basis for a lot of cultural understanding. And so 281 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:21,720 it's absolutely true in Iraq. Everyone feels they have a connection to it. And even in 282 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:28,640 practical ways too, all of the major cities are built on the banks of a river. So from 283 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:35,080 Mosul to Baghdad to Basra, the river cuts right through the middle of these famous historic 284 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:42,600 cities and people understand them as almost a foundational element of where they come 285 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:43,600 from. 286 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,800 Is the river polluted? What is the current situation? 287 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:54,520 Yeah, I mean, the Tigris is a really sad story. It's kind of an example of what happens if 288 00:29:54,520 --> 00:30:02,440 you take, you know, how could I put this? I mean, Iraq is not like a lot of other countries 289 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:07,280 in the Middle East. I mean, Jordan is one of the most water scarce countries on earth. 290 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:12,480 It may be the most. It's certainly in the top three or bottom three, whichever way you 291 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:18,760 look at it. There's just very little water in Jordan. The Jordan River is running dry. 292 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:23,800 The underground aquifers are historically low levels. There's very little rainfall. 293 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:28,160 Lots of other countries in this region have a similar story. Iraq shouldn't. Iraq has 294 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:37,160 got these two incredible rivers and it's also got a mountainous region in the north with 295 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:42,240 rainfall that feeds into tributaries that feed these rivers. Iraq should not be a water 296 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:49,360 poor country. And yet it is. And it's because at every possible point, in every possible 297 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:58,200 way, the river has been damaged. So from the dams to illegal construction of gravel mines 298 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:06,800 that dig out the bed of the river to anything and everything being dumped into the water 299 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:19,040 itself from the oil refineries to factories to just city waste to the lack of any upgrade 300 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:26,080 on water infrastructure for farmers to really archaic farming methods. Like many of the 301 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,920 farmers in Iraq still use these methods of irrigation from 5,000 years ago that the Sumerians 302 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,560 were using like flood irrigation, which is very wasteful. It's not farmers' fault. They 303 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:38,480 just kind of afford to upgrade. They've just got no support from the government. And in 304 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:45,080 some ways, the Iraqi government, they can't be excused for it because there's huge levels 305 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:50,800 of corruption going on and lack of care for this. But a lot of this came from 2003. And 306 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:55,440 after the invasion of Iraq, the entire system of the country was gutted. And none of it 307 00:31:55,440 --> 00:32:01,360 was replaced. And it left this massive gap. And so the country has never recovered from 308 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:07,520 that. So the river, every possible way you could imagine a river suffering, that's the 309 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,760 tigers. And yet it still flows. And yet people still rely on it and so on. It's amazing that 310 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:21,840 it does. But there can't be many rivers in the world that are undergoing as much of an 311 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,840 assault as the tiger's. 312 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,840 You flooded the entire river, right? 313 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:34,840 Yeah, that was the plan anyway. A team of five of us started the source. We made it 314 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:45,240 to the sea after about 80 days, I think. It's about 1200 miles, 2000 kilometers. We used 315 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,800 local boats and local boat owners for most of it. In some sections, the security was 316 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:58,600 tricky. So whenever it got very tricky, we sometimes navigated around. But we were on 317 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,320 the water for the vast majority of it. 318 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:07,920 Yeah. So you've been in Kurdistan since 2017, is that right? In Iraq? 319 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:13,880 Yeah. So I started going at the end of 2016, 2017. I was going in and out. And then I moved 320 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,880 there in 2019. 321 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:24,160 How are you dealing with the security issues? I mean, you spend a lot of time, I know you 322 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:32,280 are involved in setting up the Zabros Mountain Trail, is that right? What's it like to... 323 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:40,280 Are you scared when you go out in the wilderness there and that something could happen? 324 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:47,960 No, I'm not. But only because I have had the privilege of getting to know the place really 325 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:53,120 well. I understand that there isn't really much to be scared of. I mean, there are a 326 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:58,120 couple of things to be scared of, which I'll come to in a second. But in general, my impressions 327 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:04,320 of Iraq from a distance were the same as most people's until I went there and understood 328 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:10,880 that these mountains, which were the reason I decided to go and live there, are just phenomenally 329 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:18,800 beautiful. In the Kurdistan region, which is a semi-autonomous region, 65 to 70% of 330 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:28,160 it is mountainous. And you've got huge river valleys and canyons and waterfalls and snowcapped 331 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:34,720 peaks in the east. And it's incredibly beautiful and thousands of years of history that adapted 332 00:34:34,720 --> 00:34:42,120 around those mountains. So to walk in them is just such a... I mean, it's amazing. I 333 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,480 can't believe it. Sometimes it's such a privilege. And that was where the idea of the trail came 334 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:50,640 from was to create something that was a kind of container or a platform to allow others 335 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:55,160 to walk there as well, whether they be people from inside the region or people from outside 336 00:34:55,160 --> 00:35:00,400 and to bring people together and create an economic opportunity for those who live in 337 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:05,600 these rural areas and to make it sustainable and to help create corridors to environmental 338 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:11,200 protection along that as well. So it had lots and lots of aims. But to go back to your question 339 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:18,440 and to think about this in terms of the wildness of it, which is, of course, it's great appeal 340 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:24,920 alongside where that kind of intersects with the hospitality and the culture. This is a 341 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:34,360 scarred and damaged landscape. It's a landscape that has seen decades of conflict and prior 342 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:41,840 to that many more as well. And it still wears some of that pretty heavily. So some of that 343 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:46,720 is now part of the story of the wilderness. So some of the guides on this trail that we've 344 00:35:46,720 --> 00:35:54,360 developed are Peshmerga, which is the kind of Kurdish military force. And most of them 345 00:35:54,360 --> 00:36:01,640 are retired Peshmerga now. But when Saddam Hussein in Iraq was carrying out his genocidal 346 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:07,880 campaigns against the Kurds and destroying entire settlements, he destroyed three to 347 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:15,000 four thousand entire towns and trying to wipe or drive out the Kurds. These guys as young 348 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:21,080 men and young women survived by hiding in the mountains and fought by hiding in the 349 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:25,400 mountains. So some of the trails that we use are the trails that they use to stay alive. 350 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:30,640 And as one of the guides on the trail, Ahmed Rizani told us in the early days of scouting 351 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:35,120 it, he said, you know, the beauty of this project to him is that it turned the mountains 352 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:41,840 from a place of refuge into a place of recreation. And so that reimagining of it is what inspired 353 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:51,760 me to spend so many years working on this. But there are there are things that are harder 354 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:58,400 to shake off. And one of those is the presence of landmines that were left behind by Saddam 355 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:07,680 Hussein and also on the Iran-Iraq border. And the trail that we've created stays clear 356 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:12,600 of those. But there are there are blight on the landscape. There are huge areas of these 357 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,440 incredibly beautiful mountains. If you see if you saw them from the air, if you see them 358 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:22,600 from a distance, it just it looks as pristine, as perfect as Patagonia. When I first went 359 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:29,000 there, you get up close, you realize that there's entire sections. Some of them are 360 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:33,960 some of the areas are marked with signs from from the Hitties that say there are mines 361 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,640 here. Some of them aren't some of the mines, the signs have disappeared over time, but 362 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:42,320 the shepherds know not to go there because it was never cleared. And so you see there's 363 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:50,960 something deeply kind of metaphorical, but also just intensely depressing about seeing 364 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:55,800 the most perfect hillside you can imagine, especially in spring, lush green grass and 365 00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:00,000 wildflowers and everything else, and knowing that you can't go there because under the 366 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:07,880 ground are these these instruments of death and devastation. And so I think that's a lot 367 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:12,600 of my work, a lot of my life in the last decade and a half has been spent looking at ways 368 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:21,120 in which humans screw up beautiful places. And it is really demoralizing, but equally, 369 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:30,320 there's also lots of ways in which we can undo that or do positive things too. So without 370 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:34,120 dragging on too much, I'll maybe I'll just finish on that by saying that I think the 371 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:40,640 Zagros Mountain Trail has kind of been a case study for us in when damage is being done, 372 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:44,880 how do you then create something new on top of that that creates a better and more positive 373 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:51,160 version of the future that people want to live in and that respects and rehabilitates 374 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:52,160 the wilderness. 375 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:57,000 Are you seeing more tourism coming now? 376 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:01,080 It's slow. The trail is up and running, all the information is online. The way it runs 377 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:09,000 at the minute is still people hire local guides, stay with local homestays. I mean, the Kurdish 378 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:14,800 region in Northern Iraq, it's probably going to be a niche destination for a while. It's 379 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:21,240 going to take a little while before people are kind of looking at the Appalachian Trail 380 00:39:21,240 --> 00:39:30,960 or the Kurdish region of Iraq. But that's fine. I mean, anyone who comes sees what a 381 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:38,360 great place it is. There's also a big local hiking community that use these trails and 382 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:43,880 they grow slowly, it grows sustainably. And the important thing is that people who use 383 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:51,320 it enjoy it and the people who live along it feel like they own it and get that interaction 384 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:59,080 with people who come from elsewhere. So yeah, slowly, slowly it's coming to life. 385 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:05,800 How would you compare it to other places, other wild places around the world? 386 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:12,360 I think it's equally beautiful. I mean, I've learned my lesson over the years of ever trying 387 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:20,480 to write beautiful places because it just, you know, everything is joint first for me 388 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:32,640 after a while. But it's spectacular. It has a lot of diversity in the landscape. And the 389 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:38,040 hiking is great. I mean, it is a mountain trail. It's up and down and up and down. But 390 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:44,520 in spring with the wildflowers and the greenery and in autumn with the changing of the season 391 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:50,760 and the colors of the leaves, it's unbelievable. 392 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:56,240 You're involved in Kurdistan. There's a hikers community there. Have you found that in other 393 00:40:56,240 --> 00:40:58,400 places in the Middle East? 394 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:04,520 Yeah, I have. I mean, I think oftentimes where there's mountains, where there's beautiful 395 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:09,480 landscapes, people have a relationship to that. In the Middle East, there's definitely 396 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:14,400 a culture of people going to the mountains, to the green wild places and having picnics 397 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:24,360 and being connected to that place. And in Kurdistan, also, you know, in Jordan and in 398 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:30,000 the West Bank, there's been hiking communities that have grown. And, you know, the understanding 399 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:38,240 of hiking as it's seen in the Western world sometimes takes a while to catch on that it's 400 00:41:38,240 --> 00:41:47,480 this sort of recreational thing. But it often meets in the middle. And there's kind of a 401 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,240 nice version to that too. 402 00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:56,240 How would you, you've been a good part of the world now. What are some takeaways you 403 00:41:56,240 --> 00:42:01,120 have from all of this, all your experiences on wild places? 404 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:08,080 I think I've learned to never underestimate the power of wild places and the importance 405 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:17,040 of wild places. We talk all the time about the protection of wild places mentioned in 406 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:23,880 that. And it's for very practical reasons. Environmentally, it's essential that we do 407 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:33,160 so and protect our water resources and so on. But also just for our own minds and for 408 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:40,040 our own relationship here, it's really important that we do that. So I think that has been 409 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:46,360 the key takeaway to me to never underestimate the power of wilderness and to never underestimate, 410 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:51,800 to never take it for granted because it really is under threat and always will be. And so 411 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:56,480 it needs champions. It needs champions like you. It needs champions like me. It needs 412 00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:11,160 everyone doing everything they can to protect it. 413 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:17,480 So today we have with us Jemena Martinez-Astroza, also known as Nina. She's a photojournalist, 414 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:19,640 permaculturist and urban farmer. 415 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:25,840 Yeah, why don't you just to start us out here, can you tell us a little bit about your article 416 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,520 and what it was about? Just sort of a brief overview. 417 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:37,640 Yes, I did write this article because I didn't want to lost all the memories that I did have 418 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:47,640 from this travel. I lost my camera and I am a photojournalist. So imagine like your whole 419 00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:59,000 identity, it's been like lost or I don't know. So how I was going to be in the presence of 420 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:12,360 this magnificent nature phenomenon without my camera. One thing that I want to say before 421 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:21,160 to start this space is I want to acknowledge the traditional elders of the land where I'm 422 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:29,600 living today, which is the five tribes of Kulin Nation here in Australia. This should be a 423 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:40,000 thing that we use in every day's life. We have to acknowledge the people who was here 424 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:45,920 before and they use traditional knowledge to take care of this land. 425 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:50,680 So that brings to a really good point what you just said. In your article, you talk a 426 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:58,720 lot about Icelandic culture and its relationship to nature. Can you tell me a little bit more 427 00:44:58,720 --> 00:45:03,080 about that just from what you saw even outside of the parks? 428 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:16,240 Yeah, I think nature for them, it's in their veins. And this is something that we as maybe 429 00:45:16,240 --> 00:45:21,920 Latino American or American people thinking in the whole continent, we have been missing 430 00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:31,760 because of the Western culture, which is so strong and don't put in value or roots. But 431 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:40,000 Vikings are Vikings. No one's colonized them. They are very settled in their truth. They 432 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:50,880 love their culture. And for example, I did have a friend, a Chilean friend who was married 433 00:45:50,880 --> 00:46:00,720 with an Icelandic guy. He's a scientist. And I think my love for Iceland started by then, 434 00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:09,640 but they have a kid and the name of the kid is Wolf in Icelandic, which is Ulbur. So it's 435 00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:19,640 very common for them to name the people with elements from nature. Could you believe it? 436 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:28,440 Because the names in our culture is like Maria, Jose, Ricardo, Petro. I don't know where that 437 00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:37,720 comes from, but mostly of them, of course, are from religions. But where is our traditions? 438 00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:43,960 I would love to know more actually about, for example, all roots in Chile. I just become 439 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:52,760 in my awakening traveling and I've been so mesmerized for their connection with nature. 440 00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:57,440 And one day we'll come back to Latin America to know more about it. 441 00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:05,160 Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, you wrote this story about your journey, you know, your 442 00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:11,600 mission to try to see Northern Lights again. And so I sort of had two questions for that. 443 00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:18,400 When was the first time that you saw them? And two, when you finally did see them, what 444 00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:20,280 was that like? 445 00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:27,880 That's a really good question, because it was the whole motif, like motto, for the travel. 446 00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:34,280 The first time that I saw the Northern Lights was in Norway. I traveled with two other Chilean 447 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:40,280 friends. We were living in Denmark and we traveled all the way to Northern territory 448 00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:49,160 in Norway, to a city called Tromsø. And we were in the middle of winter and we were just 449 00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:57,000 too excited. I didn't sleep the first night just waiting. We have a beautiful unit, rented 450 00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:07,600 unit that was looking at a fjord and a mountain in Tromsø. So it was unbelievable. I didn't 451 00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:12,600 sleep the first night. We didn't see it. And at the other day, we just opened the door 452 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:19,160 and we said, like, oh, let's go for a walk and maybe we will see Aurora or Alice here. 453 00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:25,560 And I remember I did open the door and I was talking with my friends and then I moved my 454 00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:36,400 head around and Aurora was there, was in front of my eyes, was on top of my head. And it's 455 00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:48,360 like a universe bath. And three of us, we started crying. It's like, this emotion that 456 00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:57,360 you cannot explain. It's magical. It's a magical moment. And I love nature and I feel really 457 00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:03,560 connected with nature. I'm a communicator and a journalist and I'm always struggling 458 00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:10,360 how to communicate these feelings and human experiences. But sometimes I realized you 459 00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:16,520 cannot just express it. So I did take some pictures from that, from Tromsø experience 460 00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:25,360 and I did an article that was published in Outside Magazine. So if you want to know more 461 00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:33,120 about it, the whole story is there. And when I travel and when I went to Tromsø, we saw 462 00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:41,960 the Northern Lights every single day. And versus when I went to Iceland, following the 463 00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:52,400 same forecast, I saw the Northern Lights once and was very low and was very like far away. 464 00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:58,840 It wasn't that intense like in Tromsø. And I was like even up north. So I thought it 465 00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:05,040 would be in the other way around the experience. But I didn't see the Northern Lights. And 466 00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:13,720 then nature taught me another thing again. It's wild. You cannot control it. Even if 467 00:50:13,720 --> 00:50:21,800 we create where the smartest beings on earth because we create the forecast, no, no, no, 468 00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:28,960 no, no. Nature does her own thing. Mother nature and Mother Earth and the universe. 469 00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:36,000 We are many machines of the universe, but I think we lost connection. We have to tune 470 00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:41,960 again into the universe vibration and try to understand the things, not necessarily 471 00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:52,400 with words. And I think something maybe I could add to my article in the future, it 472 00:50:52,400 --> 00:51:04,400 may be try to be less journalist and more human to do the writing. But in the end, everything 473 00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:05,400 is connection. 474 00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:14,120 Yeah. So your article, you talk about your journey to Iceland, all that you went through 475 00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:19,880 trying to see these Northern Lights, trying to photograph them, what it's like in Iceland, 476 00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:27,320 their culture a little bit. Was there anything that you didn't include in your article that 477 00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:33,040 you also thought was interesting or funny or whatever it might be that just didn't make 478 00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:35,400 it in for whatever reason? 479 00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:45,360 Yeah, actually, in one of the tours, we did have a tour guide that was talking about Christmas 480 00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:51,160 because it's in the article. And when you go around the downtown, you can see a big 481 00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:58,520 mailbox and a Christmas shop and it's open all the year. And we don't understand pretty 482 00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:05,160 much Santa's story and all the Christmas in winter because we are in South America now 483 00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:11,400 and living in Australia and we have Christmas in summer, so it's quite the same. But by 484 00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:19,000 then, I didn't really understand just because I did live Christmas when I was in Copenhagen, 485 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:27,720 so I could get quite some of the stories about Christmas and Santa and the cold. But then 486 00:52:27,720 --> 00:52:35,960 the tour guide said a story when she was a child. So she said, when you have a bad behavior, 487 00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:43,720 when you are a kid, in Christmas, you get a sock, which is like, let's talk like 15 488 00:52:43,720 --> 00:52:52,760 years ago, they did use socks, like that was true, to hang instead wrap things or gifts. 489 00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:59,160 They used to use socks, then they hang them next to the fire inside of the house, like 490 00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:07,280 next to the fireplace. And if you have a bad behavior, you will get potatoes. If you have 491 00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:15,360 a good behavior, you will get fruits and possible candies and in the better case, like a little 492 00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:22,440 chocolate. But because this is island is so far away, everything is imported. So makes 493 00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:30,680 total sense. Even fruits are hard to get there. Like everything is imported. They mostly have 494 00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:39,800 like greenies. So that was fun to know. Like, oh, imagine now kids have like several and 495 00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:47,760 very fancy gifts. But before it was a sock with potatoes. And she did have the funny 496 00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:54,920 stories. She didn't have a sock one year with potatoes. But she came at night and she changed 497 00:53:54,920 --> 00:54:01,040 the potatoes for oranges, like the only two oranges that they did have in the house. And 498 00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:06,160 the parents said that the other day, like, oh, you got oranges. I'm surprised because 499 00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:10,840 you didn't really behave this year. And she was like, Oh, my God, I'm so happy because 500 00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:19,720 I got oranges. But she changed them. And of course, that's so funny. That's amazing. 501 00:54:19,720 --> 00:54:32,280 That's funny. And one thing that I could I could love to highlight. Then I went to Iceland. 502 00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:38,160 And after I went to Iceland, I thought this is my favorite place in the world. Because 503 00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:45,760 the culture is very connected with the land is they have a very they're very conscious 504 00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:51,880 of the impact in the city about every policy that they have. Everything in Iceland is a 505 00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:57,960 national park counts as a national park and is protected and is part of the culture and 506 00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:03,600 it has a story and it's put in value. So I thought, Oh, this is my favorite place in 507 00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:11,200 the world. And after that, I came back at some point at Chile. And for first time, I 508 00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:19,840 went to Patagonia. And I thought, Oh, my God, wait a minute. What's how is my hobby is my 509 00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:27,200 ignorance than I was. I didn't know Patagonia before. And I thought Iceland is like the 510 00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:34,920 the best system, the most beautiful landscape than I've ever seen. Patagonia is incredible. 511 00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:42,280 Chile is amazing. We have everything. But we don't put it in value. We don't protect 512 00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:54,400 it. We don't care. Everything is highly privatized is kept size for private companies or private 513 00:55:54,400 --> 00:56:02,320 individuals. And these need to change because land and ecosystems doesn't belong to us. 514 00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:10,480 We don't own it. That's a new concept from you can call it capitalism, neoliberalism. 515 00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:16,320 But we have to come back to the thinking that we are the custodians of the land. We are 516 00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:23,680 here to take it all take care of it for future generations. And something that I would love 517 00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:30,920 to create consciousness about is that we have a beautiful country. We need to own it. We 518 00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:36,720 need to embody it. And we need to protect it. And we can do this, creating consciousness 519 00:56:36,720 --> 00:56:44,840 from the school, talking with our friends about it, and making an opinion about it. 520 00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:53,060 This is not something that just a government will fix in the future. This is our duty, 521 00:56:53,060 --> 00:56:59,720 because we are living in this earth, in this land. And we have to do it with joy, because 522 00:56:59,720 --> 00:57:03,040 we came to this earth to take care of it. 523 00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:08,720 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's a great sentiment. And I think, I think it's really unique to 524 00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:14,640 hear that perspective, you know, as a Chilean who just maybe came to know Patagonia a little 525 00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:20,480 bit later in their life, and see, you know, the beauty that is is here and in the land. 526 00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:26,240 So yeah, I really appreciate that you sharing that perspective with us. 527 00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:30,520 Published in print and digital since 2011, Patagon Journal is a bilingual magazine 528 00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:35,480 in English and Spanish about Patagonia and the world's last world places. Head to our 529 00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:41,480 website patagonjournal.com where you can find our magazine and read our online articles. 530 00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:45,800 To subscribe, support our work through our special premium membership program, or buyback 531 00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:52,160 issues, merch and more, visit our online store at patagonstore.com. Any suggestions or to 532 00:57:52,160 --> 00:58:19,160 contribute stories to the magazine, get in touch with us by email at editors@ patagonjournal.com.