WEBVTT 00:00:02.350 --> 00:00:05.070 Welcome to the Growing EBITDA Podcast, where 00:00:05.070 --> 00:00:07.669 we unlock the doors to management and technology 00:00:07.669 --> 00:00:10.689 insights in the middle market. Join us as we 00:00:10.689 --> 00:00:13.230 explore innovative strategies to drive revenue 00:00:13.230 --> 00:00:16.129 and EBITDA growth, interviewing industry leaders 00:00:16.129 --> 00:00:18.949 and technology experts. Whether you're looking 00:00:18.949 --> 00:00:21.809 to streamline operations, understand the latest 00:00:21.809 --> 00:00:24.629 tech trends, or lead your company towards exponential 00:00:24.629 --> 00:00:28.050 growth, you're in the right place. Stay tuned 00:00:28.050 --> 00:00:33.000 and let's grow together. Welcome back, everyone, 00:00:33.039 --> 00:00:35.479 to the Growing EBITDA podcast. Mike, it's great 00:00:35.479 --> 00:00:38.619 to be back with you. I thought maybe this week 00:00:38.619 --> 00:00:40.920 we would let you pick the topic. What's on your 00:00:40.920 --> 00:00:46.119 mind? Well, myself, just like all of our listeners 00:00:46.119 --> 00:00:48.799 out there, I think are sitting on the edge of 00:00:48.799 --> 00:00:53.079 their seats in anticipation for this week's topic. 00:00:53.939 --> 00:00:56.500 We're going to talk about interim management. 00:00:57.399 --> 00:01:02.000 So grab the popcorn and get ready. We're going 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:03.700 down that rabbit hole. Who doesn't want to talk 00:01:03.700 --> 00:01:07.120 about interim management on a Tuesday? I mean, 00:01:07.140 --> 00:01:10.200 we definitely do. Since you picked the topic, 00:01:10.260 --> 00:01:12.859 I guess I do. Let's get into it. Let's do it. 00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:16.659 So reason why everybody's talking about talent 00:01:16.659 --> 00:01:19.420 shortages, which I don't, you know, a lot of 00:01:19.420 --> 00:01:22.120 people describe that as a trend. Like, oh, it's 00:01:22.120 --> 00:01:25.500 been really hard to find talent lately. I'm a 00:01:25.500 --> 00:01:27.340 little bit more than 20 years into my career, 00:01:27.400 --> 00:01:29.760 and I feel like that trend has been coming up 00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:32.969 for. 20 consecutive years. So it's definitely 00:01:32.969 --> 00:01:35.170 here to stay, but we're going to spend a little 00:01:35.170 --> 00:01:37.569 bit of time today talking about maybe how to, 00:01:37.569 --> 00:01:41.549 how to address those shortages from not the full 00:01:41.549 --> 00:01:43.390 -time hire perspective, but from the, from the 00:01:43.390 --> 00:01:45.790 interim side of things or fractional side of 00:01:45.790 --> 00:01:47.689 things, maybe depending on who you're talking 00:01:47.689 --> 00:01:50.430 to or depending on what kind of role that you're, 00:01:50.430 --> 00:01:52.409 that you're, that you're talking about. Yeah. 00:01:52.489 --> 00:01:53.790 And that, and that makes sense, Mike, because 00:01:53.790 --> 00:01:56.219 I think You know, you and I get involved in a 00:01:56.219 --> 00:01:58.200 lot of transactions and we see that sometimes 00:01:58.200 --> 00:02:00.500 there's talent gaps or folks leave after the 00:02:00.500 --> 00:02:02.480 transaction happens. It's not like that role 00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:05.079 goes away. It's not like, hey, we don't have 00:02:05.079 --> 00:02:06.739 a CEO for the next three months. We're just going 00:02:06.739 --> 00:02:08.699 to shut down business and we'll resume back. 00:02:08.919 --> 00:02:10.979 The business keeps having to run. So that makes 00:02:10.979 --> 00:02:14.060 sense. If you think about it, management teams 00:02:14.060 --> 00:02:16.919 tend to be fluid. You know, you find some businesses 00:02:16.919 --> 00:02:19.419 that have the same management team for 15 years, 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:22.740 but that's exceedingly rare. I think these days 00:02:22.740 --> 00:02:25.659 probably find that more. some family owned businesses, 00:02:25.900 --> 00:02:28.979 privately held businesses than you do private 00:02:28.979 --> 00:02:32.180 equity backed businesses or larger publicly traded 00:02:32.180 --> 00:02:36.280 businesses. And given the fluidity of some of 00:02:36.280 --> 00:02:37.539 those teams, you're going to have people coming 00:02:37.539 --> 00:02:39.580 and going. And sometimes, you know, you've got 00:02:39.580 --> 00:02:42.879 folks you can promote from below the person who's 00:02:42.879 --> 00:02:45.099 leaving, whether they're being pushed out or 00:02:45.099 --> 00:02:47.500 they're choosing to leave on their own. Many 00:02:47.500 --> 00:02:48.800 other times you're going to look to the outside 00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:51.960 and recruit somebody in house or use a third 00:02:51.960 --> 00:02:55.509 party recruiter. to help fill those gaps. But 00:02:55.509 --> 00:02:57.210 sometimes that can take a while. And sometimes, 00:02:57.270 --> 00:03:00.090 you know, you might have a role, plant manager 00:03:00.090 --> 00:03:03.310 comes to mind, right? If you've got a 200 ,000 00:03:03.310 --> 00:03:05.689 square foot manufacturing facility and your plant 00:03:05.689 --> 00:03:08.389 manager leaves, somebody's got to run that plant 00:03:08.389 --> 00:03:10.110 every single day. Somebody's got to make a lot 00:03:10.110 --> 00:03:12.250 of decisions on a daily basis to keep that place 00:03:12.250 --> 00:03:17.169 humming. And oftentimes that, among other examples, 00:03:17.330 --> 00:03:19.449 is a good opportunity to bring somebody in quickly, 00:03:19.550 --> 00:03:21.389 right? Now, sometimes it can be challenging to 00:03:21.389 --> 00:03:24.639 find those folks. if they're not at the ready 00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:26.759 and already in your Rolodex. But we'll talk about 00:03:26.759 --> 00:03:29.039 that in a little bit more detail. Yeah. So I 00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:31.139 guess, I don't know, maybe there's something, 00:03:31.300 --> 00:03:33.099 it seems like you have some things in mind. Maybe 00:03:33.099 --> 00:03:35.139 there's a question you have for me that we can 00:03:35.139 --> 00:03:37.199 start with to kind of warm it up. And then we'll 00:03:37.199 --> 00:03:38.780 turn the back half over to you since you kind 00:03:38.780 --> 00:03:40.979 of had the topic thought today. Yeah, let's do 00:03:40.979 --> 00:03:42.819 it. Let's talk. Let's dive in a little bit deeper 00:03:42.819 --> 00:03:46.199 here. So in your experience, why is interim leadership 00:03:46.199 --> 00:03:50.199 such a strong play during this, in my opinion, 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:53.349 20 -year talent shortage that we've had? It has 00:03:53.349 --> 00:03:57.810 a little micro gap of 20 years of talent. I think 00:03:57.810 --> 00:03:59.789 one of the things that's challenging is anytime 00:03:59.789 --> 00:04:02.590 you come into a new situation, the ability to 00:04:02.590 --> 00:04:05.669 ramp up quickly is a challenge. Because the business 00:04:05.669 --> 00:04:07.669 has been running, let's pretend, use your 20 00:04:07.669 --> 00:04:08.669 -year example. The business has been running 00:04:08.669 --> 00:04:10.650 for 20 years. Things have been happening for 00:04:10.650 --> 00:04:12.270 20 years. There's a lot of tribal knowledge. 00:04:12.370 --> 00:04:13.530 There's a lot of things that have been done. 00:04:13.810 --> 00:04:17.199 That interim leader that comes in. Usually you're 00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:19.980 going to recruit very strong folks. So I think 00:04:19.980 --> 00:04:21.259 maybe to talk a little bit about the persona 00:04:21.259 --> 00:04:23.040 of an interim leader, because we work with a 00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:24.899 lot of them, is someone with a lot of industry 00:04:24.899 --> 00:04:27.139 experience. They've been doing this for a while, 00:04:27.220 --> 00:04:29.439 and they're usually on the stronger side of being 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:32.220 able to manage talent and get things done. So 00:04:32.220 --> 00:04:33.680 you think about this business is moving very 00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:36.000 quickly for 20 years. I got to bring this individual 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:38.300 in and have them ramp quickly. I think that's 00:04:38.300 --> 00:04:41.120 a nice meeting up of the two talents, because 00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:42.819 there is obviously going to be a little bit of 00:04:42.819 --> 00:04:44.339 a gap while you learn, but bringing someone in. 00:04:45.230 --> 00:04:50.149 Number two is the idea of flexibility. So maybe 00:04:50.149 --> 00:04:52.350 I don't want to pay 40 hours a week for the individual. 00:04:52.430 --> 00:04:55.189 I can use them less. Maybe I need someone that 00:04:55.189 --> 00:04:56.790 can come in for a little bit to get me through. 00:04:56.870 --> 00:04:59.089 Or maybe I'm a business that just want a large 00:04:59.089 --> 00:05:01.529 client and I need to put a person in the seat 00:05:01.529 --> 00:05:04.370 that's my CRO so I can put this CRO in front 00:05:04.370 --> 00:05:05.990 of a large retailer to win some of that work. 00:05:06.129 --> 00:05:08.649 You have that ability to use those interim executives. 00:05:09.579 --> 00:05:11.379 stabilize the business, get it where it needs 00:05:11.379 --> 00:05:13.939 to be, and either roll them off, use them more, 00:05:14.040 --> 00:05:15.959 or roll them out of the organization. So it gives 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:17.480 you a little bit of flexibility, whereas hiring 00:05:17.480 --> 00:05:19.500 somebody, you know you're locked in for a bit. 00:05:20.180 --> 00:05:22.319 And then there's this last one. This happens 00:05:22.319 --> 00:05:25.579 a lot in the IT space for us, which is this specialized 00:05:25.579 --> 00:05:29.360 expertise side. So I really need someone who 00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:31.439 can be very good at doing this thing and going 00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:34.839 deep into this. So let's go for an example that's 00:05:34.839 --> 00:05:37.779 outside of IT, procurement. I'm working on a 00:05:37.779 --> 00:05:40.459 new product. I need to really start to source 00:05:40.459 --> 00:05:43.620 from a new nation, or maybe we see it today with 00:05:43.620 --> 00:05:45.220 the tariff exposure, right? I need to look at 00:05:45.220 --> 00:05:47.699 secondary sourcing. How do I bring somebody in 00:05:47.699 --> 00:05:49.220 that's maybe at the procurement level, maybe 00:05:49.220 --> 00:05:50.980 a procurement manager, procurement director, 00:05:51.199 --> 00:05:53.300 that's going to come in and handle this multi 00:05:53.300 --> 00:05:55.939 -sourcing project for me, lead it because they 00:05:55.939 --> 00:05:58.639 have in -region expertise, they have a deep understanding 00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:00.540 of what needs to happen, take us through that 00:06:00.540 --> 00:06:02.500 change curve, and come in and make that happen? 00:06:02.579 --> 00:06:04.439 I could decide to make that a full -time role 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:07.500 after. or not use them after I figure this out. 00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:09.620 So I'd say that specialization side is important. 00:06:09.800 --> 00:06:13.000 So really, Mike, I'd say that flexibility, speed, 00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:14.860 and specialization would probably be the three 00:06:14.860 --> 00:06:17.060 buckets I would say are most common. What do 00:06:17.060 --> 00:06:18.839 you think? Yeah, I mean, I think the only thing 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:22.500 missing there is while speed's important, a lot 00:06:22.500 --> 00:06:24.740 of times you get caught off guard by some of 00:06:24.740 --> 00:06:27.579 these departures, right? So yes, it's speed. 00:06:28.220 --> 00:06:30.579 to impact, I think is what you're kind of referring 00:06:30.579 --> 00:06:33.079 to with some of your commentary. Yes. And that 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:35.019 speaks to the person's experience and expertise 00:06:35.019 --> 00:06:36.600 and their ability to hit the ground running. 00:06:36.699 --> 00:06:39.639 Right. But I also think about it through the 00:06:39.639 --> 00:06:42.459 lens of if somebody has an abrupt departure, 00:06:42.740 --> 00:06:45.680 right. Some people pass away, unfortunately, 00:06:46.019 --> 00:06:48.920 right. Some people suddenly change jobs or have 00:06:48.920 --> 00:06:51.980 a life issue or career change, you know, and 00:06:51.980 --> 00:06:54.519 sometimes you can have. less than two weeks notice 00:06:54.519 --> 00:06:56.759 for, for key roles in the business. So I also 00:06:56.759 --> 00:06:59.120 think about speed from the perspective of I've 00:06:59.120 --> 00:07:01.279 got a business issue. I need that plant manager 00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:04.180 back to my example. I need somebody there next 00:07:04.180 --> 00:07:07.740 week because we're about to go live on this, 00:07:07.779 --> 00:07:09.980 you know, three year project that we've been 00:07:09.980 --> 00:07:12.339 working on to launch our next greatest widget. 00:07:12.459 --> 00:07:15.120 And my plant manager just left, right. And that's 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:16.399 the plant that we're going to make all these 00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:18.639 new, these new widgets. And so, you know, I think 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:20.379 about it from, from speed, from that perspective, 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:23.040 right. How to, how to fill a gap quickly. that's 00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:25.879 critical to executing your operating plan. Well, 00:07:25.959 --> 00:07:27.740 I mean, it seems like you have some ideas on 00:07:27.740 --> 00:07:30.120 some of these roles and we've kind of danced 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:32.879 around it by using some anecdotal examples. Maybe 00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:35.199 let's take a brief pause and have you kind of 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:38.199 drill into where do you see interim management 00:07:38.199 --> 00:07:40.220 making the biggest difference and what are those 00:07:40.220 --> 00:07:45.639 roles? Yeah, I think first, I want to clarify, 00:07:45.720 --> 00:07:48.180 in my opinion, the difference between interim 00:07:48.180 --> 00:07:52.480 management and fractional. employees, right? 00:07:52.579 --> 00:07:55.300 So when I think interim management, I'm thinking 00:07:55.300 --> 00:07:59.040 about a key managerial role, and that could be 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:04.139 down to the controller level, right? Or the general 00:08:04.139 --> 00:08:08.180 manager level or plant manager level. I'm definitely 00:08:08.180 --> 00:08:10.519 thinking about at the executive team level, right? 00:08:10.600 --> 00:08:16.259 CEO, CFO, COO, et cetera, VP roles. When I think 00:08:16.259 --> 00:08:18.759 about fractional, oh, and by the way, on interim, 00:08:19.259 --> 00:08:21.379 I'm thinking about, you know, it may be part 00:08:21.379 --> 00:08:24.120 time, but I'm thinking about something that by 00:08:24.120 --> 00:08:28.279 definition is an interim solution to a longer 00:08:28.279 --> 00:08:31.560 term business need, right? Where if you're a 00:08:31.560 --> 00:08:34.399 $300 million industrial manufacturing business, 00:08:34.600 --> 00:08:38.159 you need to have a COO. And if your COO abruptly 00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:40.799 departs and nobody internally can backfill them 00:08:40.799 --> 00:08:44.220 on a temporary basis. let alone a permanent basis, 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:45.500 right? Because we're talking about interim. So 00:08:45.500 --> 00:08:46.740 everything we're talking about really is temporary. 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:48.340 If you don't have somebody internally who can 00:08:48.340 --> 00:08:50.860 backfill them for three to six months while you 00:08:50.860 --> 00:08:54.179 find a long -term solution, that's when you need 00:08:54.179 --> 00:08:56.440 that interim solution. And the interim solution 00:08:56.440 --> 00:08:58.580 could be from the inside, right? But it also 00:08:58.580 --> 00:09:01.100 could be from the outside. Whereas fractional, 00:09:01.220 --> 00:09:05.679 again, my definition is we have a need in the 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:08.679 business, could be a temporary need. It could 00:09:08.679 --> 00:09:11.500 be a long -term need. But we're choosing as an 00:09:11.500 --> 00:09:15.580 entity not to have that capability on a full 00:09:15.580 --> 00:09:17.820 -time basis in -house. So the example there might 00:09:17.820 --> 00:09:20.019 be same $300 million industrial manufacturing 00:09:20.019 --> 00:09:24.960 business wants to explore how to embed AI into 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:27.559 their dumpster. So who knows, whatever it is 00:09:27.559 --> 00:09:29.659 that they make. They might go out and seek a 00:09:29.659 --> 00:09:33.899 fractional technologist to come in a day, a week, 00:09:33.899 --> 00:09:36.360 a week, a month, maybe full -time, but for a 00:09:36.360 --> 00:09:39.379 period of time. to advise them on that. That's 00:09:39.379 --> 00:09:41.259 not really kind of how I think about interim 00:09:41.259 --> 00:09:42.679 management. I think about interim management 00:09:42.679 --> 00:09:46.220 as critical roles in a business that are required 00:09:46.220 --> 00:09:49.080 to keep the business running in some capacity. 00:09:49.220 --> 00:09:51.299 That you don't have a solution for in -house 00:09:51.299 --> 00:09:54.379 today that you're likely recruiting for over 00:09:54.379 --> 00:09:56.740 time, but you need that temporary solution, that 00:09:56.740 --> 00:10:00.360 interim solution. Where we see this most commonly 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:04.200 is probably in the finance and accounting departments. 00:10:05.179 --> 00:10:08.289 Most businesses can get by for a few weeks or 00:10:08.289 --> 00:10:10.470 a few months without without that plan manager 00:10:10.470 --> 00:10:14.830 many firms can get by without a vice president 00:10:14.830 --> 00:10:18.389 procurement for a couple of months because oftentimes 00:10:18.389 --> 00:10:19.750 some of the stuff that those folks are going 00:10:19.750 --> 00:10:21.289 to be working on is a little bit more long -term 00:10:21.289 --> 00:10:23.409 in nature or it's kind of easier to kind of self 00:10:23.409 --> 00:10:26.210 -regulate on a day and and kind of weekend and 00:10:26.210 --> 00:10:29.090 week out basis Whereas the financials, you got 00:10:29.090 --> 00:10:31.129 to report those every month. All the executives 00:10:31.129 --> 00:10:34.110 need direct and prompt visibility into what's 00:10:34.110 --> 00:10:36.250 going on in the financials of the company. So 00:10:36.250 --> 00:10:40.610 oftentimes, you'll see significant demand for 00:10:40.610 --> 00:10:43.870 temporary interim accounting and finance professionals 00:10:43.870 --> 00:10:47.110 because once your site controller leaves or once 00:10:47.110 --> 00:10:49.809 your CFO leaves abruptly or you've exited them. 00:10:50.490 --> 00:10:52.509 It's not like you can wait six months before 00:10:52.509 --> 00:10:54.750 you close the books for that plant or for that 00:10:54.750 --> 00:10:57.629 consolidated P &L. Every four weeks, your banks 00:10:57.629 --> 00:10:59.830 most likely are going to want to see what's going 00:10:59.830 --> 00:11:01.370 on. Your CEO is going to want to see it. Your 00:11:01.370 --> 00:11:03.389 board is going to want to see it, etc. So that's 00:11:03.389 --> 00:11:05.450 probably the area we see it most commonly. We 00:11:05.450 --> 00:11:08.370 work a lot in private equity too. And I assume 00:11:08.370 --> 00:11:10.529 a number of the folks listening are going to 00:11:10.529 --> 00:11:13.309 know this to be true. But just in case you don't, 00:11:13.309 --> 00:11:16.360 the single highest turnover role in... private 00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:17.919 equity -backed businesses, especially as they 00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:20.820 transition for the first time to become owned 00:11:20.820 --> 00:11:22.960 by a private equity fund, the single highest 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:25.200 turnover role is not the CEO. It's actually the 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:29.320 CFO. And there's a huge industry around interim 00:11:29.320 --> 00:11:32.879 CFO solutions because oftentimes it's the first 00:11:32.879 --> 00:11:34.519 time a company's ever had debt on its balance 00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:36.299 sheet. And maybe they've already been owned for 00:11:36.299 --> 00:11:38.080 a little while by a private equity fund. And 00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:40.000 even if that's the case, because there's oftentimes 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:42.779 a lot of leverage in relatively small businesses 00:11:42.779 --> 00:11:45.600 in the grand scheme of things, the banks They 00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:47.120 want those financials every month. They want 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:48.399 to understand. The board wants to understand, 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:50.100 right? So as soon as you have a finance professional 00:11:50.100 --> 00:11:53.240 leave on their own accord or pushed out by the 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:55.639 new ownership group, you'll often see a lot of 00:11:55.639 --> 00:11:57.360 interim folks. And I think a lot of people think 00:11:57.360 --> 00:11:59.059 about interim management. They think about interim 00:11:59.059 --> 00:12:02.039 CFOs, maybe an interim controller. And there's 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:04.259 a huge industry ecosystem, a lot of specialist 00:12:04.259 --> 00:12:06.980 firms that kind of pure play, just put those 00:12:06.980 --> 00:12:10.460 people into those types of situations. Where 00:12:10.460 --> 00:12:13.450 we play. On the Trivista side, where we've helped 00:12:13.450 --> 00:12:15.350 a lot of clients is on the interim operations 00:12:15.350 --> 00:12:18.649 leadership roles. So, you know, maybe not quite 00:12:18.649 --> 00:12:21.470 as critical to reporting the financials out every 00:12:21.470 --> 00:12:23.649 month, but go back to my $300 million industrial 00:12:23.649 --> 00:12:26.269 manufacturer, kind of hard for a company like 00:12:26.269 --> 00:12:28.509 that to live six months without a COO, right? 00:12:28.610 --> 00:12:31.070 Or pretty difficult to run a 200 ,000 square 00:12:31.070 --> 00:12:34.409 foot manufacturing facility, maybe five states 00:12:34.409 --> 00:12:37.450 away from the headquarters without that plant 00:12:37.450 --> 00:12:39.549 manager, that general manager running that facility 00:12:39.549 --> 00:12:42.580 on a daily basis. In other cases, you just may 00:12:42.580 --> 00:12:45.899 find that you just need a particular part of 00:12:45.899 --> 00:12:48.480 the business that needs some immediate experienced 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:52.940 hands to come in and help you fill a gap. So 00:12:52.940 --> 00:12:55.799 we see a lot of kind of interim COO roles, interim 00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:58.200 plan managers, interim director of ops, VP of 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:02.039 ops, head of procurement, VP supply chain. And 00:13:02.039 --> 00:13:04.820 obviously, all those roles are focused on. keeping 00:13:04.820 --> 00:13:07.179 the business running and obviously less focused 00:13:07.179 --> 00:13:09.419 on keeping the financials up to date, which would 00:13:09.419 --> 00:13:12.919 be the interim CFO route. Sometimes, and we see 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:14.940 this kind of, I would say if, you know, for every 00:13:14.940 --> 00:13:18.480 interim CFO type role we see in the market, we 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:23.059 probably see for every 20 or 30 interim CFOs, 00:13:23.059 --> 00:13:24.940 we might see one interim operations position. 00:13:25.220 --> 00:13:27.539 And it's probably a similar kind of step down 00:13:27.539 --> 00:13:30.179 into other functional leadership roles. You don't 00:13:30.179 --> 00:13:33.549 tend to see interim commercial leaders very frequently. 00:13:33.629 --> 00:13:35.769 You don't tend to see a lot of interim HR leaders. 00:13:36.450 --> 00:13:39.309 You'll see a lot of fractional HR type resources 00:13:39.309 --> 00:13:44.269 out there. But those many companies, particularly 00:13:44.269 --> 00:13:46.409 in the mid -market, will deem themselves capable 00:13:46.409 --> 00:13:49.350 of kind of getting to the full -time hire without 00:13:49.350 --> 00:13:51.129 having to bridge that gap with an interim solution. 00:13:51.350 --> 00:13:53.929 So certainly, finance and accounting is kind 00:13:53.929 --> 00:13:56.309 of the number one biggest chunk of the market. 00:13:56.990 --> 00:13:59.210 so to speak operations is probably a distant 00:13:59.210 --> 00:14:00.990 second and then everything else is kind of a 00:14:00.990 --> 00:14:04.610 distant third now i should point out we should 00:14:04.610 --> 00:14:07.230 talk about the ceo for a minute very frequently 00:14:07.230 --> 00:14:10.350 are you gonna you're gonna have an interim ceo 00:14:10.350 --> 00:14:13.750 in particularly in mid -market businesses it's 00:14:13.750 --> 00:14:17.350 not quite as high of a turnover role as the cfo 00:14:17.350 --> 00:14:20.450 and obviously we're talking about a role as opposed 00:14:20.450 --> 00:14:22.250 to an entire department when you think about 00:14:22.250 --> 00:14:24.320 accounting and finance There's typically one 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:27.000 CEO in a $300 million business. There might be 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:28.860 20 finance and accounting professionals, of which 00:14:28.860 --> 00:14:31.980 maybe five are in leadership roles. So on an 00:14:31.980 --> 00:14:34.799 account basis, you're going to find far fewer 00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:37.559 interim CEOs. But that's also an important role, 00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:40.860 right? You may think that, hey, the board may 00:14:40.860 --> 00:14:45.220 decide the CEO isn't the right person or the 00:14:45.220 --> 00:14:48.019 CEO left or died or whatever the case may be. 00:14:48.220 --> 00:14:49.659 And if they think it's going to take a while 00:14:49.659 --> 00:14:51.500 to get the right person, they may very well bring 00:14:51.500 --> 00:14:54.279 in an interim solution. Yeah, that's very helpful 00:14:54.279 --> 00:14:56.480 and educational. And by the way, I really liked 00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:59.080 your first part of that discussion because I 00:14:59.080 --> 00:15:02.840 think even in my description, I conflated the 00:15:02.840 --> 00:15:06.340 two between fractional and interim. And so just 00:15:06.340 --> 00:15:08.159 to play that back for everyone and for myself, 00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:11.200 Mike, I took some notes as we often do on the 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:12.919 cast here because I think we educate ourselves 00:15:12.919 --> 00:15:15.559 just as much as we hopefully are educating our 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:19.360 listeners. So interim, I took these notes of 00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:23.370 it's full -time, usually temporary. They're focused 00:15:23.370 --> 00:15:27.389 on continuity or crisis management, and it's 00:15:27.389 --> 00:15:30.450 a typically reactive need. For fractional, it's 00:15:30.450 --> 00:15:33.289 usually part -time, longer -term type thing. 00:15:33.590 --> 00:15:36.409 They're mostly focused on strategy or scalability 00:15:36.409 --> 00:15:38.590 alignment. And then the last one, it's a proactive 00:15:38.590 --> 00:15:40.470 solution and less reactive like the interim. 00:15:40.710 --> 00:15:43.190 Did I kind of capture those correctly? It's your 00:15:43.190 --> 00:15:45.029 own notes, but did I capture your own thoughts 00:15:45.029 --> 00:15:47.870 correctly on here? Yeah, and I think I'm sure 00:15:47.870 --> 00:15:50.250 people have examples that'll... contradict my 00:15:50.250 --> 00:15:52.970 experience. Yeah. But yeah, you know, you're 00:15:52.970 --> 00:15:55.169 spot on. You see a lot of, you know, there's 00:15:55.169 --> 00:15:59.309 a big fractional marketing bench out there, right? 00:15:59.389 --> 00:16:01.210 A lot of independents, a couple of small firms, 00:16:01.289 --> 00:16:03.429 but that tends to be something that does a lot 00:16:03.429 --> 00:16:05.230 of fractional. You don't tend to see a lot of 00:16:05.230 --> 00:16:08.370 interim chief marketing officers. You don't tend 00:16:08.370 --> 00:16:09.889 to see a lot of chief marketing officers in a 00:16:09.889 --> 00:16:11.429 hundred million dollar, $200 million business, 00:16:11.610 --> 00:16:14.090 especially an industrial one. But yeah, spot 00:16:14.090 --> 00:16:16.399 on. I think, I think about interim. And kind 00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:18.340 of use 80 -20 principles here, right? Like 80 00:16:18.340 --> 00:16:20.500 % of the time, interim is going to be reactive, 00:16:20.860 --> 00:16:24.000 filling a gap. It's a continuity issue. Whereas 00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:28.139 fractional tends to be proactive, outsourcing 00:16:28.139 --> 00:16:31.259 of a capability not deemed to be core to, you 00:16:31.259 --> 00:16:33.279 know, having in -house. Yeah, that's really helpful. 00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:36.259 And I think I've mixed those terms up. So we 00:16:36.259 --> 00:16:39.820 support a lot of groups with VCIO services. And 00:16:39.820 --> 00:16:42.820 I'm sure in those moments, I've probably said 00:16:42.820 --> 00:16:46.370 interim. in there. And, and I guess if I even 00:16:46.370 --> 00:16:48.370 look at the definition of the word, I've probably 00:16:48.370 --> 00:16:50.330 been using it incorrectly. So I appreciate a 00:16:50.330 --> 00:16:53.230 good, uh, education. By the way, I'm happy to 00:16:53.230 --> 00:16:56.210 give you an English lesson after the, uh, after 00:16:56.210 --> 00:16:59.370 I read it, I'm like, crap, this is a, and I do 00:16:59.370 --> 00:17:01.970 love how great my buddy Bezos, let me open my 00:17:01.970 --> 00:17:04.069 phone here. I'll, my buddy Bezos send you a dictionary 00:17:04.069 --> 00:17:06.849 so you can start to educate yourself. How's that 00:17:06.849 --> 00:17:09.680 sound? I do love how you wove in a you're incorrect 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:12.180 in your examples into your answer, which is great. 00:17:12.779 --> 00:17:19.059 It's always good. Yes, I would say I took that 00:17:19.059 --> 00:17:21.519 fractional knowledge and I'm going to apply it 00:17:21.519 --> 00:17:25.440 in the interim. But I appreciate it. Okay, well, 00:17:25.460 --> 00:17:27.380 just like I'm getting some serious value out 00:17:27.380 --> 00:17:30.140 of this, maybe we could talk about how do kind 00:17:30.140 --> 00:17:33.539 of organizations, or even in our case, sometimes 00:17:33.539 --> 00:17:35.460 PE funds, because sometimes they're the ones 00:17:35.460 --> 00:17:37.759 that are reaching out. How do I make sure I get 00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:40.000 a win by bringing these folks in? Because obviously 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:42.519 it's not cheap. You and I both know that. It 00:17:42.519 --> 00:17:45.700 sometimes can be very wrong and a misfit. How 00:17:45.700 --> 00:17:48.779 do I figure out that win and make sure I'm structured 00:17:48.779 --> 00:17:51.200 and prepared before I bring this individual in 00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:55.180 or even attempt to? Yeah. So I think that for 00:17:55.180 --> 00:17:58.279 starters, being realistic about what you're trying 00:17:58.279 --> 00:18:01.640 to achieve is really important, right? Where 00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:04.960 I've seen a lot of people do this wrong. is they 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:09.180 say, hey, listen, I need to go hire a new whatever 00:18:09.180 --> 00:18:11.500 the role is, right? Let's just use COO as an 00:18:11.500 --> 00:18:14.019 example. I need to go hire a new COO because 00:18:14.019 --> 00:18:16.180 my current one left or I kicked them out or her 00:18:16.180 --> 00:18:19.019 out or whatever the case may have been. And they 00:18:19.019 --> 00:18:20.700 sit down and they start scoping it out with the 00:18:20.700 --> 00:18:23.259 executive recruiting firm. And they say, hey, 00:18:23.259 --> 00:18:24.579 there's all these traits and characteristics 00:18:24.579 --> 00:18:27.460 and industry experiences that we want. Go find 00:18:27.460 --> 00:18:29.549 them. executive search firm says, great, need 00:18:29.549 --> 00:18:31.670 three to six months. And the board's sitting 00:18:31.670 --> 00:18:33.029 there going, well, geez, I don't have three to 00:18:33.029 --> 00:18:35.250 six months, right? Like I want that person and 00:18:35.250 --> 00:18:37.269 fine, I get it three to six months, but what 00:18:37.269 --> 00:18:39.009 do I do over the next three to six months? Because 00:18:39.009 --> 00:18:40.630 I got to keep the lights on. I got to keep continuity 00:18:40.630 --> 00:18:43.569 front of mind here. Where I see a lot of people 00:18:43.569 --> 00:18:47.950 go wrong is they simultaneously go looking for 00:18:47.950 --> 00:18:50.150 an interim solution that looks like their full 00:18:50.150 --> 00:18:52.190 -time solution, but they want that tomorrow. 00:18:52.329 --> 00:18:53.809 And if it was that easy, you probably could just 00:18:53.809 --> 00:18:55.589 find your long -term solution tomorrow, right? 00:18:55.630 --> 00:18:58.990 But it's not. And I think that Being honest with 00:18:58.990 --> 00:19:01.190 yourself about what you're trying to achieve. 00:19:01.750 --> 00:19:04.390 This is a stopgap, which by the way, the price 00:19:04.390 --> 00:19:06.390 tag associated with this, which oftentimes is 00:19:06.390 --> 00:19:10.430 a multiple of what the full -time hire might 00:19:10.430 --> 00:19:13.450 cost. This is expensive, right? So I think a 00:19:13.450 --> 00:19:15.569 lot of people try to be very thoughtful about 00:19:15.569 --> 00:19:17.230 it, which you obviously need to be thoughtful 00:19:17.230 --> 00:19:18.890 about it, but you kind of can't overthink it 00:19:18.890 --> 00:19:20.609 at the same time. You kind of got to go, listen, 00:19:20.769 --> 00:19:24.539 this is a stopgap. I don't need. the best person 00:19:24.539 --> 00:19:26.619 in the world, because it's unlikely that you're 00:19:26.619 --> 00:19:28.099 going to find the best person in the world on 00:19:28.099 --> 00:19:29.940 the very first try by next Monday when you need 00:19:29.940 --> 00:19:31.980 them at some critical client meeting or whatever 00:19:31.980 --> 00:19:35.160 the case may be at that site to go run it. So 00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:36.859 just being realistic about what you're trying 00:19:36.859 --> 00:19:39.940 to achieve and what the minimum viable capabilities 00:19:39.940 --> 00:19:42.000 and experience set of this person should have. 00:19:42.500 --> 00:19:47.160 I see a lot of people go to their network and 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:50.740 say, hey, who in my Rolodex, former executives 00:19:50.740 --> 00:19:53.430 that they've worked with, maybe at prior businesses 00:19:53.430 --> 00:19:55.910 or that they've come across. We see a lot of 00:19:55.910 --> 00:19:57.789 people kind of go there first, which sometimes 00:19:57.789 --> 00:20:00.450 can be the solution. Another solution is going 00:20:00.450 --> 00:20:02.869 to firms, you know, obviously like TriVista, 00:20:02.930 --> 00:20:06.089 who specialize in certain niches, right? So don't 00:20:06.089 --> 00:20:08.289 come to us for, you know, hey, I've got an interim, 00:20:08.349 --> 00:20:11.200 I need an interim. software developer right we 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:13.019 don't have any of those in our uh you know in 00:20:13.019 --> 00:20:15.180 our in our rolodex but hey i need an interim 00:20:15.180 --> 00:20:18.359 coo vp of ops vp supply chain go call somebody 00:20:18.359 --> 00:20:20.680 who's got a broad network who's already in this 00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:22.920 business who already places these kinds of candidates 00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:25.960 on an interim basis who understands the the business 00:20:25.960 --> 00:20:29.099 model And who's got a deep Rolodex of folks that, 00:20:29.099 --> 00:20:31.299 you know, you say, hey, I need a person in this 00:20:31.299 --> 00:20:33.500 geography. Maybe it's very site specific role. 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:35.599 I need somebody in this geography with about 00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:38.279 25 years experience. They have to have led teams 00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:41.160 of 300 people in a heavy industrial manufacturing 00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:43.720 environment. Right. Somebody like that can quickly 00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:45.900 go to a network and get you some some viable 00:20:45.900 --> 00:20:48.799 candidates. So I think a being realistic about 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:50.619 what it is that you're looking for and not going 00:20:50.619 --> 00:20:54.220 to look for like. a purple polka dotted llama. 00:20:54.500 --> 00:20:56.220 Cause you know, those don't, those don't, those 00:20:56.220 --> 00:20:58.220 don't exist anywhere. You know, just being realistic 00:20:58.220 --> 00:21:00.579 about that from the get go, tapping some resources, 00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:02.759 like some firms who do this for a living and 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:05.339 help businesses fill these gaps is a, is a key, 00:21:05.339 --> 00:21:07.740 key second piece. I think having a clear mandate 00:21:07.740 --> 00:21:10.900 for the person once they show up to, right. And 00:21:10.900 --> 00:21:13.680 being realistic about how much change do you 00:21:13.680 --> 00:21:15.440 actually think somebody can drive in three months, 00:21:15.539 --> 00:21:17.740 right? Like being realistic about, is this, am 00:21:17.740 --> 00:21:21.099 I looking for somebody who can provide continuity? 00:21:21.789 --> 00:21:23.390 Or am I going to try and take that person who 00:21:23.390 --> 00:21:25.390 I'm asking to help drive continuity and then 00:21:25.390 --> 00:21:27.630 do a bunch of change management? Right. And I 00:21:27.630 --> 00:21:29.309 think you can only do so much change in a couple 00:21:29.309 --> 00:21:30.809 of months, especially in certain roles. Like 00:21:30.809 --> 00:21:33.750 oftentimes I encourage people wait to do the 00:21:33.750 --> 00:21:35.710 change until you have the full time person, like 00:21:35.710 --> 00:21:37.509 bring in the part time person, bring in that 00:21:37.509 --> 00:21:40.089 interim resource, that steady pair of hands to 00:21:40.089 --> 00:21:41.730 make sure you don't have more departures, to 00:21:41.730 --> 00:21:43.650 make sure you ship product on time, to make sure 00:21:43.650 --> 00:21:45.069 you're talking with your customers in the right 00:21:45.069 --> 00:21:47.420 way. But don't try and boil the ocean. Don't 00:21:47.420 --> 00:21:48.819 have somebody with a bunch of experience come 00:21:48.819 --> 00:21:50.519 in and then all of a sudden give them 20 other 00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:52.140 things that you think that you want them to do 00:21:52.140 --> 00:21:55.480 and change and dilute their ability to impact 00:21:55.480 --> 00:21:57.079 the business in the way that you originally intended, 00:21:57.279 --> 00:22:00.339 right? So I think that's key. Also empowering 00:22:00.339 --> 00:22:01.920 them, right? If somebody is going to be an interim 00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:05.700 COO, don't bring them in and call them a consultant 00:22:05.700 --> 00:22:08.759 and then expect the entire team to rally around 00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:11.200 their leadership, right? You have to empower 00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:14.509 them. to make decisions, just like you're going 00:22:14.509 --> 00:22:16.910 to have to empower your full time person to come 00:22:16.910 --> 00:22:18.509 in and do that. Now, you oftentimes are going 00:22:18.509 --> 00:22:20.940 to vet a full time person. more than you're going 00:22:20.940 --> 00:22:22.960 to vet some of these interim resources. And that's 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:25.220 why it's important in many cases to try and seek 00:22:25.220 --> 00:22:27.319 out a firm that does that, fills those kind of 00:22:27.319 --> 00:22:29.240 roles for a living, because hopefully and presumably 00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:32.480 they've done an extensive amount of sector -specific, 00:22:32.619 --> 00:22:35.099 role -specific vetting and reference checking. 00:22:35.259 --> 00:22:36.559 Maybe they've worked with this individual in 00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:39.079 the past. Those are all kind of good things to 00:22:39.079 --> 00:22:40.900 have done because, again, we're talking about 00:22:40.900 --> 00:22:42.960 interim stopgaps, right? Oftentimes in a very 00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:46.529 abrupt environment, an executive leaves. you're 00:22:46.529 --> 00:22:48.170 trying to find a solution in a matter of weeks. 00:22:48.349 --> 00:22:50.470 You don't have time often to go through lengthy 00:22:50.470 --> 00:22:52.390 interview processes across the board and the 00:22:52.390 --> 00:22:55.049 executive management team, et cetera. So I think 00:22:55.049 --> 00:22:56.650 just being realistic, having that clear mandate, 00:22:56.829 --> 00:23:00.549 not overburdening them with projects that are 00:23:00.549 --> 00:23:02.450 going to dilute their impact on keeping the lights 00:23:02.450 --> 00:23:04.430 on and keeping the operation running is key. 00:23:04.849 --> 00:23:07.549 And then also just making sure that you're upfront 00:23:07.549 --> 00:23:09.809 with that person about the timeline and, you 00:23:09.809 --> 00:23:11.450 know, the expectations and the deliverables. 00:23:12.299 --> 00:23:13.900 And, you know, making sure that they understand, 00:23:14.059 --> 00:23:15.819 which they often do, it's an interim role. If 00:23:15.819 --> 00:23:17.119 they're the right person, they should get this, 00:23:17.180 --> 00:23:19.099 that they're not the permanent person that you're 00:23:19.099 --> 00:23:20.200 looking for, right? That you're going to be looking 00:23:20.200 --> 00:23:21.980 for someone and you may, in fact, want to engage 00:23:21.980 --> 00:23:24.440 them in the search in some capacity because they're 00:23:24.440 --> 00:23:26.119 going to have very unique insights into the business, 00:23:26.220 --> 00:23:28.940 the culture, the needs of the organization. They 00:23:28.940 --> 00:23:30.720 may be able to help you tease out whether or 00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:33.220 not your long -term fit, your long -term permanent 00:23:33.220 --> 00:23:35.839 hire is going to be a good fit or not. Yeah, 00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:39.099 those are really good, I think. I really like 00:23:39.099 --> 00:23:40.839 two parts. Number one, they're not a consultant 00:23:40.839 --> 00:23:43.160 that's coming in, so they're not going to have 00:23:43.160 --> 00:23:45.859 this superpower to have a lot more free time 00:23:45.859 --> 00:23:47.900 compared to the previous group. That's a really 00:23:47.900 --> 00:23:50.400 good one. And then I think the thing that's interesting 00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:52.609 to me while I was listening to you... Some of 00:23:52.609 --> 00:23:54.289 those tips are good for just your current employees. 00:23:54.789 --> 00:23:57.829 Be transparent, be upfront, give them clear directive. 00:23:58.130 --> 00:24:00.029 Like it's a lot of the stuff and, and you know, 00:24:00.029 --> 00:24:01.990 you can't just assume that you treat that any, 00:24:02.009 --> 00:24:04.109 any different. So I really like that. Well, I'll 00:24:04.109 --> 00:24:05.829 be honest with you, James. One of the things 00:24:05.829 --> 00:24:07.970 that we find is, and this obviously assumes you 00:24:07.970 --> 00:24:10.509 get the right person in, in the interim slot. 00:24:11.150 --> 00:24:12.710 But one of the things that we have found over 00:24:12.710 --> 00:24:15.309 the years, when we've dropped interim managers 00:24:15.309 --> 00:24:17.950 into our clients' businesses, the client comes 00:24:17.950 --> 00:24:20.220 back and says, wow, like. They've had a profound 00:24:20.220 --> 00:24:23.099 impact. Like we really like this person. Oftentimes 00:24:23.099 --> 00:24:24.900 they'll try and hire him. In many cases, it's 00:24:24.900 --> 00:24:26.420 like, well, that guy lives in Florida and your 00:24:26.420 --> 00:24:28.480 site's in Seattle and it's three stops to get 00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:30.579 there and he's not moving. Right. So he's not, 00:24:30.579 --> 00:24:32.140 he's not your, he's not going to be your full 00:24:32.140 --> 00:24:33.920 -time guy, but oftentimes we'll have clients 00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:35.279 say like, wow, how did you get, how did they 00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:37.740 get that much done in two months? And a lot of 00:24:37.740 --> 00:24:40.579 the times it's because the other leaders in the 00:24:40.579 --> 00:24:43.640 business were smart enough, not. to overburden 00:24:43.640 --> 00:24:45.839 them with things that weren't critical to continuity 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:47.720 right so rather than getting that person caught 00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:49.940 up in a bunch of recurring meetings that don't 00:24:49.940 --> 00:24:52.480 add a lot of value right you're just kind of 00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:54.539 letting them go and execute and they're just 00:24:54.539 --> 00:24:57.420 highly focused so some i think that your point 00:24:57.420 --> 00:24:58.900 that you were making is like hey some parallels 00:24:58.900 --> 00:25:00.680 here some metaphors some lessons to be applied 00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:02.359 to maybe other permanent roles in the business 00:25:02.359 --> 00:25:03.740 well some lessons to be applied to that role 00:25:03.740 --> 00:25:05.920 in the business too right let your people stay 00:25:05.920 --> 00:25:07.619 focused on the right things don't bog them down 00:25:07.619 --> 00:25:09.019 and things that they don't need to be involved 00:25:09.019 --> 00:25:11.839 in and sometimes magic happens have you ever 00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:15.779 Filled an interim role for a business? Not in 00:25:15.779 --> 00:25:19.819 a kind of formal way. I think I've acted in interim 00:25:19.819 --> 00:25:22.599 roles kind of more informally in some of the 00:25:22.599 --> 00:25:24.759 businesses that I've been involved with, particularly 00:25:24.759 --> 00:25:26.220 some of the ones that we've invested in over 00:25:26.220 --> 00:25:29.740 the years. But not formally, but some of our 00:25:29.740 --> 00:25:33.819 partners have and we do a lot of. Yeah, it's 00:25:33.819 --> 00:25:34.980 the reason I asked that, Mike, because I think 00:25:34.980 --> 00:25:38.190 I'm more used in it. in a fractional perspective 00:25:38.190 --> 00:25:41.029 than an interim perspective. I think a lot of 00:25:41.029 --> 00:25:44.549 times I was a, now that I have the definitions 00:25:44.549 --> 00:25:48.369 correct, I was an interim CIO for a carve -out 00:25:48.369 --> 00:25:52.349 for a business. So SpinCo needed to stand alone 00:25:52.349 --> 00:25:55.009 and they needed an IT leader to sit there for 00:25:55.009 --> 00:25:57.289 four months until the strategic took them over. 00:25:57.529 --> 00:26:00.609 But that was a pretty light duty. But I think 00:26:00.609 --> 00:26:03.329 most of the time... I spent on the fractional 00:26:03.329 --> 00:26:05.049 side. And I think it might be interesting to 00:26:05.049 --> 00:26:07.250 get some perspective. Maybe we can find someone 00:26:07.250 --> 00:26:08.849 in our network that would come talk to us about 00:26:08.849 --> 00:26:10.890 being an interim. Because I think the other angle 00:26:10.890 --> 00:26:12.569 I think is interesting here, Mike, as you were 00:26:12.569 --> 00:26:16.869 talking is, because our listeners, so we get 00:26:16.869 --> 00:26:18.730 the analytics on our listeners, are typically 00:26:18.730 --> 00:26:21.150 mid -market business, mostly executives or PE 00:26:21.150 --> 00:26:24.509 folks. I think the inverse of this that I think 00:26:24.509 --> 00:26:26.609 is interesting is, if I'm at a business today, 00:26:26.750 --> 00:26:28.509 and I know the business is about to transact, 00:26:28.710 --> 00:26:30.130 and I'm pretty sure I'm not going to go forward, 00:26:31.849 --> 00:26:34.609 type thing for me could be an interim role somewhere. 00:26:34.829 --> 00:26:36.849 Like if I'm a COO that's currently doing a business, 00:26:37.109 --> 00:26:39.529 I'm thinking about trying to slow down. And it 00:26:39.529 --> 00:26:42.049 might be interesting to have a conversation and 00:26:42.049 --> 00:26:44.029 get someone on to talk to us about, hey, you're 00:26:44.029 --> 00:26:46.069 considering what your next role is, maybe trying 00:26:46.069 --> 00:26:48.619 to get in this interim. I guess a bit of a hamster 00:26:48.619 --> 00:26:50.319 wheel because it does change. But this interim 00:26:50.319 --> 00:26:51.940 space is interesting and maybe getting someone 00:26:51.940 --> 00:26:53.920 on the line to talk about it. I know a particular 00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:55.960 person from Florida that when you said Florida, 00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:57.880 it made me think about it. Having them come on 00:26:57.880 --> 00:26:59.539 and talk about what it's like to be in that role 00:26:59.539 --> 00:27:01.240 and how folks can be in that. Because number 00:27:01.240 --> 00:27:03.160 one, we always need good sourcing because we 00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:05.400 need folks in to be able to send folks out. And 00:27:05.400 --> 00:27:07.140 number two, it might be helpful to educate some 00:27:07.140 --> 00:27:09.420 of our listeners. Yeah, absolutely. You know, 00:27:09.460 --> 00:27:11.220 I think the other thing that you're jogging my 00:27:11.220 --> 00:27:13.710 memory on now is. Just my experience. So even 00:27:13.710 --> 00:27:16.069 though I haven't done a lot of interim roles 00:27:16.069 --> 00:27:19.430 personally, I've placed a lot of people in interim 00:27:19.430 --> 00:27:22.569 roles over the years, helping clients. Sometimes 00:27:22.569 --> 00:27:24.250 it's been with some of the full -time consultants 00:27:24.250 --> 00:27:27.190 on the TriVista team. Many of the time it's people 00:27:27.190 --> 00:27:29.410 from our broader network that we're dropping 00:27:29.410 --> 00:27:34.349 in. And one of the things that I think some people 00:27:34.349 --> 00:27:36.549 get right and some people don't get right is 00:27:37.619 --> 00:27:40.619 When people see the price tag on interim, oftentimes 00:27:40.619 --> 00:27:43.839 it's very off -putting, right? So if I'm used 00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:46.720 to paying a plant manager, I don't know, let's 00:27:46.720 --> 00:27:49.720 just pick just round numbers for example purposes. 00:27:49.859 --> 00:27:51.740 If I'm used to paying my plant manager $100 ,000 00:27:51.740 --> 00:27:55.759 a year and I go out and I'm like, listen, I need 00:27:55.759 --> 00:27:57.759 an interim solution while I look for this. I 00:27:57.759 --> 00:27:59.980 know it's going to be hard to fill this role. 00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:02.319 It's going to probably take me six months. When 00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:04.839 they get interim solutions to come through, I've 00:28:04.839 --> 00:28:07.259 seen a lot of people. Find somebody from their 00:28:07.259 --> 00:28:09.119 own network. Oftentimes it's somebody who like 00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:11.099 lives in the town, was a brother of a guy on 00:28:11.099 --> 00:28:13.180 the shop floor, whatever the case may be. And 00:28:13.180 --> 00:28:15.579 it's like, oh, well, on a run rate basis, this 00:28:15.579 --> 00:28:18.740 person's more like 130 grand a month. That's 00:28:18.740 --> 00:28:21.480 not that bad. So yeah, let's drop that person 00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:22.900 in and see how they do. It's really just a kind 00:28:22.900 --> 00:28:25.119 of a continuity thing anyway. That's kind of 00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:26.859 like the cheap route. Like there's a little bit 00:28:26.859 --> 00:28:29.920 of premium to going with that person on a part 00:28:29.920 --> 00:28:31.839 -time basis. They're optimistic that they'll 00:28:31.839 --> 00:28:34.019 get back to that 100 grand level when they find 00:28:34.019 --> 00:28:36.740 the full -time hire. many times we've seen folks 00:28:36.740 --> 00:28:40.440 come to us and others like us who provide these 00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:43.460 kind of services in certain niches and they're 00:28:43.460 --> 00:28:45.779 like well wait a second i was paying a hundred 00:28:45.779 --> 00:28:48.380 grand on a run rate basis this is like three 00:28:48.380 --> 00:28:51.220 hundred thousand dollars right like i can't afford 00:28:51.220 --> 00:28:53.720 that and i think this is kind of one of those 00:28:53.720 --> 00:28:55.799 things where you kind of got to be careful you 00:28:55.799 --> 00:28:57.910 know tread carefully here Oftentimes, you get 00:28:57.910 --> 00:29:00.069 what you pay for. And I think you just got to 00:29:00.069 --> 00:29:02.109 be really serious about how critical is the role? 00:29:02.470 --> 00:29:05.910 How much of a leader do I need in this seat, 00:29:06.309 --> 00:29:09.230 right? Which would be very different at the COO 00:29:09.230 --> 00:29:12.109 level, maybe versus like an assistant controller 00:29:12.109 --> 00:29:16.309 level in a business. And recognize that if you're 00:29:16.309 --> 00:29:18.069 going to go to some of these outside firms who 00:29:18.069 --> 00:29:20.190 are going to help maintain a Rolodex for you 00:29:20.190 --> 00:29:22.349 such that they can drop somebody in in relatively 00:29:22.349 --> 00:29:24.910 short order. and be accretive to you and valuable 00:29:24.910 --> 00:29:27.309 to you in the selection and placement process, 00:29:27.589 --> 00:29:28.869 you know, that you're going to have to pay for 00:29:28.869 --> 00:29:30.769 it. Because certainly you get the wrong person 00:29:30.769 --> 00:29:33.710 in, in a critical role, right? If you need to 00:29:33.710 --> 00:29:36.410 hire an interim solution, it's probably a critical 00:29:36.410 --> 00:29:38.670 role. Don't go cheap. Because at the end of the 00:29:38.670 --> 00:29:42.809 day, it should be a very short -term thing. It's 00:29:42.809 --> 00:29:44.910 typically an adjustment to the financials, right? 00:29:45.009 --> 00:29:48.289 So just be thoughtful about cheap is not always 00:29:48.289 --> 00:29:50.549 your friend here, right? Yeah, no, great point. 00:29:50.750 --> 00:29:53.259 Yeah, and just for our listeners, I think you 00:29:53.259 --> 00:29:57.059 meant 130 ,000 a year. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, 00:29:57.160 --> 00:30:00.339 cause I would make that a $1 million plant manager, 00:30:00.420 --> 00:30:01.779 which by the way, for a million dollar plant 00:30:01.779 --> 00:30:03.480 manager, whoo, imagine what you could produce. 00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:09.359 Hey, all right. Well, long list of long line 00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:11.559 of plant managers signing up to that role. I 00:30:11.559 --> 00:30:15.440 got a pen right here. I got a pen right here. 00:30:15.460 --> 00:30:17.799 I figured it out. Yeah. Back to our earlier episode, 00:30:17.880 --> 00:30:20.619 GPT, my way to success. All right. I can plant 00:30:20.619 --> 00:30:24.950 plants. All right, let's wrap up with some trivia. 00:30:24.950 --> 00:30:26.809 I looked it up just based on some of the conversations. 00:30:26.930 --> 00:30:30.210 You said something around the folks being temporary. 00:30:30.309 --> 00:30:32.309 It kind of struck something, so I just quickly 00:30:32.309 --> 00:30:35.990 GPT'd a question. How long does an average executive 00:30:35.990 --> 00:30:39.549 search take to complete was my original question, 00:30:39.789 --> 00:30:42.769 but I'm changing the question. I'm going to spice 00:30:42.769 --> 00:30:48.230 it up because you made that comment. What percentage 00:30:48.230 --> 00:30:50.509 of interim executives are hired to be in that 00:30:50.509 --> 00:30:52.410 full -time role, I think is a better question. 00:30:53.789 --> 00:30:58.329 You know, I bet you it's like you want to think 00:30:58.329 --> 00:31:00.049 it's high, but it's probably not all that high. 00:31:00.250 --> 00:31:04.190 I'm going to say 8 % to 12 % somewhere in that 00:31:04.190 --> 00:31:06.190 range. Pretty dang close, man. We'll give you 00:31:06.190 --> 00:31:08.839 a quarter point for that. A quarter point. A 00:31:08.839 --> 00:31:10.619 whole quarter point. Yes. Well, you gave me half 00:31:10.619 --> 00:31:14.259 a point last week. So you're 1 .25 to 0 .5 is 00:31:14.259 --> 00:31:16.619 our score right now. But it's roughly 20 % to 00:31:16.619 --> 00:31:21.359 30%. So it's interesting. And by the way, so 00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:23.799 GPT gives you copious amounts of context anytime 00:31:23.799 --> 00:31:26.640 you search for anything, right? And it came back 00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:29.220 and said it shows that they're not just bridging 00:31:29.220 --> 00:31:30.680 the gap, that they can also become part of the 00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:33.349 solution. I think that's a low percent, but they're 00:31:33.349 --> 00:31:35.289 quoting that's a pretty high percent. So I think 00:31:35.289 --> 00:31:36.950 a lot of times I expect people to roll. So yeah, 00:31:37.069 --> 00:31:40.190 23 % of the people you bring on in interim role 00:31:40.190 --> 00:31:42.970 could become your FTE. Yeah, I mean, I think 00:31:42.970 --> 00:31:47.470 to me, I think it probably varies widely by interim 00:31:47.470 --> 00:31:52.490 role. There are an industry type. I bet you it's 00:31:52.490 --> 00:31:54.250 kind of all over the map, right? So if you go 00:31:54.250 --> 00:31:56.789 to like the plant manager example, oftentimes 00:31:56.789 --> 00:32:00.339 you'll get into a small town. in the Midwest, 00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:04.019 in the Rust Belt, where the facility that needs 00:32:04.019 --> 00:32:05.680 that plant manager is the largest employer in 00:32:05.680 --> 00:32:09.759 town. Next closest industrial employer may only 00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:12.740 have an eighth of the number of headcount, right? 00:32:12.839 --> 00:32:16.059 So you may immediately have to be looking pretty 00:32:16.059 --> 00:32:18.220 far away, right? You're going to have to extend 00:32:18.220 --> 00:32:20.500 that radius out pretty far to find somebody with 00:32:20.500 --> 00:32:22.920 the right skill set who also happens to be available, 00:32:23.220 --> 00:32:27.470 who also is going to pass your criteria. And 00:32:27.470 --> 00:32:29.450 in many roles, you're going to be flying folks 00:32:29.450 --> 00:32:32.029 in. Certainly, the higher up you get, the more 00:32:32.029 --> 00:32:33.829 difficult it is to find folks in the immediate 00:32:33.829 --> 00:32:36.009 geography. Oftentimes, there's a lot of travel 00:32:36.009 --> 00:32:37.930 involved. And a lot of those folks, if you think 00:32:37.930 --> 00:32:40.450 about like an interim COO, a lot of times you're 00:32:40.450 --> 00:32:41.549 going to be talking about folks who are in their 00:32:41.549 --> 00:32:44.390 late 40s, 50s, 60s with the kind of experience 00:32:44.390 --> 00:32:46.789 that you need to drop them in. A lot of those 00:32:46.789 --> 00:32:49.490 people are. they're not moving, right? So yes, 00:32:49.569 --> 00:32:51.730 your plant may be in Seattle or your business 00:32:51.730 --> 00:32:54.069 may be in Maine, but they might live in Florida, 00:32:54.130 --> 00:32:57.150 Texas, Southern California, right? So mapping 00:32:57.150 --> 00:33:00.390 that out oftentimes is kind of just a hurdle. 00:33:00.470 --> 00:33:02.029 It's not a hurdle to send them in temporarily, 00:33:02.190 --> 00:33:03.750 but it's a hurdle to get them on the team full 00:33:03.750 --> 00:33:05.470 -time, even if they are really, really great. 00:33:05.809 --> 00:33:07.329 It certainly does happen though, right? You can 00:33:07.329 --> 00:33:09.700 incent them. A lot of people can be convinced, 00:33:09.819 --> 00:33:11.740 but a lot of people can't be convinced. Right. 00:33:11.819 --> 00:33:14.640 So whereas I think in some in some interim roles, 00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:16.619 particularly in accounting and finance, that 00:33:16.619 --> 00:33:19.099 tends to be a very geographically driven business. 00:33:19.259 --> 00:33:23.670 So, for example, if you need a controller. an 00:33:23.670 --> 00:33:27.170 interim controller in San Diego, there are firms 00:33:27.170 --> 00:33:29.529 that are San Diego based or have offices in San 00:33:29.529 --> 00:33:31.789 Diego that just do finance and accounting placement 00:33:31.789 --> 00:33:35.190 work. So the conversion there from interim to 00:33:35.190 --> 00:33:37.089 full -time is probably going to happen a lot 00:33:37.089 --> 00:33:38.710 more frequently because they likely have resources 00:33:38.710 --> 00:33:40.430 who are already there because nobody wants to 00:33:40.430 --> 00:33:43.470 pay five grand a week in travel expenses to bring 00:33:43.470 --> 00:33:47.549 in a controller who they're only paying $85 an 00:33:47.549 --> 00:33:50.349 hour to come into that interim role. So it's 00:33:50.349 --> 00:33:53.539 just a little bit different. Yeah, it's definitely 00:33:53.539 --> 00:33:57.200 not a high, high percentage of interim to full 00:33:57.200 --> 00:34:00.039 -time conversion. No, that's great context. I 00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:02.259 think one of the things I walk away from in today's 00:34:02.259 --> 00:34:05.119 conversation is it's something that I should... 00:34:05.390 --> 00:34:07.849 Look for more and talk about more because it 00:34:07.849 --> 00:34:10.730 is an offering that we have, frankly, and it 00:34:10.730 --> 00:34:12.570 sometimes falls to the bottom of the sort order 00:34:12.570 --> 00:34:14.610 when we're talking with clients. We're so focused, 00:34:14.730 --> 00:34:17.710 back to my two definitions, on really making 00:34:17.710 --> 00:34:19.869 sure I get them right. We're so focused on that 00:34:19.869 --> 00:34:21.610 fractional side that I think the interim side 00:34:21.610 --> 00:34:24.650 is something that I need to bring into my lexicon 00:34:24.650 --> 00:34:27.190 more and discuss with our clients. I appreciate 00:34:27.190 --> 00:34:29.670 the context today and walking us through it. 00:34:29.710 --> 00:34:31.530 It was really helpful for me, at least. I walked 00:34:31.530 --> 00:34:33.489 away understanding more and some ideas for future 00:34:33.489 --> 00:34:36.320 episodes. Great. Happy to help. All right. Well, 00:34:36.380 --> 00:34:37.880 thanks for tuning in to Growing EBITDA, folks. 00:34:38.139 --> 00:34:40.900 I appreciate it. Feel free to subscribe. We always 00:34:40.900 --> 00:34:42.860 like when folks do that. And we look forward 00:34:42.860 --> 00:34:46.099 to catching up next time. Thanks for tuning in 00:34:46.099 --> 00:34:48.820 to this episode of Growing EBITDA. If you liked 00:34:48.820 --> 00:34:51.940 this episode, hit subscribe or follow us on LinkedIn 00:34:51.940 --> 00:34:54.780 for updates. Got a topic you'd like us to cover? 00:34:55.300 --> 00:34:57.440 Drop us a message. We'd love to hear from you.