WEBVTT

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Funny story. So I start off and my first job

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was in Citibank Bombay in what used to be called

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global finance, which is the corporate banking

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side of the bank. On my second day at work, they

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made me sort of get my signature authorized to

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be an authorized signatory. I had to register

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my signature with all of the requisite authorities.

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And day three, I'm signing a check for, I nearly

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fell off my chair, 500 crores. It wasn't seeming.

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It was. I had never seen so many zeros on a checkbook.

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Welcome. We are here for another session of My

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First Job, the podcast, where each week we speak

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to people who go through their own individual

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career journeys. They have their successes and

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their moments of reflection. None of it. I think

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is a setback. Today, we have Divya Sampath. She's

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sponsor and partner of AWE Funds. Divya has had

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a long and successful career in IT. At times,

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you have to be lucky. You're born at a time when

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the world is changing and the world itself is

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transitioning to a completely new paradigm, as

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they say. This is one place where that word actually

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fits. Divya's been in IT. When search engines

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were still known by names such as Infoseek and

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Lycos and AltaVista, social media didn't exist.

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To come through a stage from there to where she

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is today is definitely going to be an interesting

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journey to hear about. Let's welcome Divya to

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the show. Hi, Venu. Thank you so much for the

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warm welcome. I appreciate the kind words. Great

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to have you on the show. One of the things that

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you said is that you divide your time equally

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between venture capital and social causes, which

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is a great balance because I think work -life

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balance, while people look for, you seem to have

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found that golden mark between handing out funds

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to people and ensuring that there's a certain

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set of people who are uplifted as well. So what's

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it like? That's a very interesting way to put

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it. First of all, I think I learned from... Way

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back in my career, I've been fortunate throughout

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my career to have great mentors and role models

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to look up to. And one of the things I learned

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from watching them is that when it comes to work

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-life balance, of course, it's important. You

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know, one should never overwork and burn oneself

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out and all of that. But it's far more important

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to find purpose in what you're doing. That is

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the source of enduring happiness and joy, finding

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balance, as it were. That's really the secret.

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So whether it's working as a venture capitalist

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or supporting the various causes that are dear

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to my heart, as you said, the key to finding

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true balance is to always try to stay connected

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to your personal purpose, your personal values.

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You know, the old -fashioned virtues of working

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hard and trying to do good work, right? That

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does give a lot of satisfaction. At the end of

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the day, most of us spend, you know, 8 to 16

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hours, hopefully not 16 hours, but 8 to 16 hours

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at work during a day. So it's very tied up in

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our personal identities, our self -esteem, the

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way we perceive ourselves. So the way we show

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up for work, what value we find in the work that

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we do is very critical, I think, to maintain

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some sort of mental balance or happiness. Finding

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that elusive work -life balance as the saying

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goes. I'm sure we'll get into the venture capital

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part a little later. People often say, and I

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think it said on the LinkedIn post about this

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podcast, that I've had a zigzag career. I also

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had a zigzag education. So one way of looking

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at it is that I was open to all kinds of different

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experiences, which is a very positive spin to

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put on it. The other way to look at it is that

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like most people in their late teens, you're

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not quite sure what you want to do with life.

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One may have multiple talents or multiple interests.

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As the saying goes, my official college graduation,

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I graduated, I did a BCom. But at the same time,

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being surrounded by, you know, friends and family

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who are all extremely type A personalities and

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very achievement oriented. It wasn't sufficient

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to just go to college and get a degree. I, at

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the same time, pursued what used to be in those

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days called a GNIIT program, which was a graduate

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diploma program in programming, as well as I

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pursued the equivalent of a BA in French at the

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Allianz Transits. Because I was genuinely at

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one point in time toying with, should I become,

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you know, should I take up arts or should I become

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some sort of a diplomat and use my linguistic

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abilities? So, or, but my true love was always,

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I was always very attracted to technology. So

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that remained, has continued to be a constant

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threat to my career. So having started that way,

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my first job actually pre -MBA, I worked for

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a year with Air Ferguson, which is at the time

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it was, hadn't been taken over by the larger

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consulting firm. It is known as a consulting

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and an audit firm. And I worked with the consulting

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side to, as a programmer analyst. to digitize

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their management library. So that was a very

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interesting experience. I was surrounded by management

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consultants from the top deep business schools,

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as you can imagine. So that had something of

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an influence in terms of what to do next. So

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that was how I ended up. It certainly had a significant

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influence on why I wrote the MBA entrances and

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how I ended up doing business. And post my business

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degree, the start of my zigzag career was again,

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I had a dual major because as one did in those

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days. in finance and marketing. And I picked

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finance and went into banking for about a year.

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I figured out that while I loved the people I

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worked with, certainly I joined Citibank, which

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is as good an employer as you would get in those

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days. And we had a phenomenal management associate

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training program. Funny story. So I start off

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and my first job was in Citibank Bombay in what

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used to be called global finance, which is the

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corporate banking side of the bank. On my second

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day at work, they made me sort of get my signature

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authorized to be an authorized signatory. I had

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to register my signature with all of the requisite

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authorities. And day three, I'm signing a check

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for, I nearly fell off my chair, 500 crores.

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I had never seen so many zeros on a check before.

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What was the context there? So again, I was managing

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cash management. So corporate cash management

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means that fundamentally you move large sums

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of money around. And this is very much in the

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mid -1990s. Indian banking was also not as automated

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as it is today. So money didn't move instantly.

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There was no NEFT, no RTGS, etc. If you had to

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move money from, let's say, from Kolkata or Jamshedpur

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to Pune, which is what the Tata Group used to

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do. They would have to work with their bankers

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to work with a correspondent banking network.

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So you would transfer money to, let's say, your

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correspondent bank's account in Jamshedpur. And

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those folks would then transfer the money to

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their branch in Pune, which would arrive four

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days later. And then that branch would, through

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the local clearing system, transfer the money

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to Telco's account with Citibank. There was a

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cash management system. So Citibank had leveraged

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this opportunity because money did move very

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slowly. Either that or you had to move money

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through much slower methods. It would take two

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weeks for the money to get transferred. So Citibank

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had created this cash management offering, leveraging

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the weaknesses in the banking system to say,

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we'll move your money. Otherwise, it'll take

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you two weeks. With us, it'll take four days

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by leveraging this network of correspondent banks.

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And they were making money off the float because

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while the money is moving through the system,

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you're sitting on two days of float. So that

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money is basically free money that you can then

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put into the money market and so on and so forth.

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You need to boost up your statutory liquidity

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ratio, your SLR and so on and so forth. So I'm

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getting too deep into that, but this is the context.

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I think very clearly what you found out is early

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on you said a check for 500 crores and that kind

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of set the stage. What brought me very quickly

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down to earth was actually seeing the credit

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in my own bank account, which is barely touching

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five figures at the time. So on the one hand,

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my salary was like barely, had barely crossed

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five figures. And on the other hand, it was very

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schizophrenic in a way. But you know, beyond,

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you very quickly stop thinking of it when it

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has so many zeros and you're talking about such

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vast sums of money. The thing that inures you

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is you stop thinking of it as real money, which

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is dangerous. It is dangerous. Yes. So how would

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you ensure that all of this was, you know, it's

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a huge responsibility. So one zero from 500 crores

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will depreciate the value by, you know, straight

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away. So how do you ensure that all of this takes

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in value? Very true. And fortunately, you know,

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Citibank was not stupid enough to trust a fresh

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MBA graduate with the sole responsibility of

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managing all this. They had a very competent

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staff of five people whom I was managing. And

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those are frankly the people who did all the

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hard work. They were the ones who actually prepared

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the checks, did the transaction entries. All

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I had to do was sit there and approve things

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on three different computer systems because that's

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how things were and sign a few checks. I had

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to sign about between 20 to 60 checks in a day

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because some things actually physically had to

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be signed and go through a physical clearing

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system. Everything else used to be approved on

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various systems and flow through. Staff members

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had been there. And all one did was, you know,

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supervise them, quote unquote. Yeah, but it's

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amazing how there were so many, like you said,

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there were so many gaps in the banking system

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that could have been, that were actually models

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of making money at that point in time. It may

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have been a small window, but like you said,

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are you finding those kind of things still happening?

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That no matter how much technology catches up,

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you still have gaps? That's a really good point,

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Venu. And actually, we are making a fundamentally

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very good point. I would actually say that there's

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a reason. And cash management operations this

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way was a product offering that pretty much was

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invented in India and then was transferred to

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other sort of South Asian and a few other developing

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economies because, of course, the developed world

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didn't need it. There wasn't money moved much

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faster. They had other automatic systems of moving

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money. Citibank saw this opportunity and, frankly,

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was quick to exploit it and make money out of

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this in India. There's a reason also that so

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many Indian talents went on to bleed Citibank.

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And there have been multiple CEOs and leaders

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of Citibank of Indian origin, starting with Victor

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Meneses back in the 1990s. And he was, I think

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he passed out of IIT Bombay sometime in the late

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1960s. So we've been exporting talent since way

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back when. But that sort of management talent

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and that entrepreneurial spirit of seeing a gap

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in the market, seeing an opportunity that nobody

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else is seeing an inefficiency and saying, I

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can develop a product or a service that can solve

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this problem for customers and they'll be willing

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to pay me for it. That actually is at the nucleus

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of most of the really successful startups that

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I look at investing in as a venture capitalist,

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right? On the other hand, I'd say it's also a

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common thing that you see in the social sector

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world. There is a service need or a gap that

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needs to be addressed. And someone stands up

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and says, why can't I be the one to fix this

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problem? Or at least let me take a stab at fixing

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this problem. And there's value being delivered.

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Someone is going to benefit from it. That common

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principle of finding that exploitable market

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opportunity, limited though it might be in terms

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of time, now it doesn't exist, obviously, because

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you have instantaneous transfers. But for a long

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time, it did. For about a period of close to

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a decade, Citibank was making money off this.

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And other people followed. They also made money

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off this because of the banking system. And genuinely,

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if you're a Tisco, you're a Telco, you're a Hindustan

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Lever, you have... payrolls that run into crores,

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you have, you know, payments that run into crores.

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A single day's saving in terms of moving money

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from one destination to another is worth a lot

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of money to you, right? That was an interesting

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opportunity then. And there are continued opportunities

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like that today. But that is a common thread.

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Maybe the technology has changed, but their ability

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to spot those gaps has not. This is amazing.

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So when you were doing so well in finance and

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in a bank, What brought about the transition

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to SIFI, right? Or was it, was there an intermediate?

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Brand manager in between. And I had an adventurous

00:12:39.379 --> 00:12:41.759
two years as a brand manager after SIFI. So as

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I said, that zigzag career, then the next zag,

00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:47.299
if you will, after the SIFI zig, was I kind of

00:12:47.299 --> 00:12:48.659
quickly figured out that I didn't want to be

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a banker. Mainly because I looked around me and

00:12:50.679 --> 00:12:53.200
said, in 20 years, do I want to be doing any

00:12:53.200 --> 00:12:55.299
of these people's jobs? And the answer was no.

00:12:56.399 --> 00:12:59.200
So I was at least fortunate to have figured that

00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:01.379
out quickly enough that after a year, I quit

00:13:01.379 --> 00:13:04.000
Citibank and joined Sterling Holidays as a brand

00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:06.259
manager because my other specialization was marketing.

00:13:06.379 --> 00:13:08.360
And I had friends who went into brand management

00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:10.320
and here was this opportunity because Sterling

00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:12.679
Holidays had pioneered the concept of timeshares

00:13:12.679 --> 00:13:15.779
in India at the time. And they had hired a rockstar

00:13:15.779 --> 00:13:18.679
team of sales and marketing folks from the who's

00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:21.690
who, from Prepton Gamble, Hindustan Leaver. Asian

00:13:21.690 --> 00:13:24.049
Paints, all of the best known marketing brand

00:13:24.049 --> 00:13:26.850
companies of the day had, they had hired talent.

00:13:26.970 --> 00:13:29.730
So it was a very, very sought after place to

00:13:29.730 --> 00:13:32.269
be working as a marketing, young marketing professional.

00:13:32.590 --> 00:13:34.870
So I ended up joining as a brand manager. And

00:13:34.870 --> 00:13:37.570
again, I was very fortunate to have fantastic

00:13:37.570 --> 00:13:40.909
bosses, mentors, great learning experiences and

00:13:40.909 --> 00:13:43.710
enjoyed it. One thing that I find myself... Conceptually,

00:13:43.710 --> 00:13:46.990
that was completely new, right? Because the whole

00:13:46.990 --> 00:13:50.129
concept of time sharing. Now, of course, you

00:13:50.129 --> 00:13:52.710
have an Airbnb and so many others who have leveraged

00:13:52.710 --> 00:13:54.970
that and taken it to a different level. But at

00:13:54.970 --> 00:13:58.450
that point, to even say fractional owning of

00:13:58.450 --> 00:14:02.049
holiday was something that really had to be drilled

00:14:02.049 --> 00:14:04.190
into people. They really didn't think about it

00:14:04.190 --> 00:14:06.809
as an option. Yeah, no, absolutely. You were

00:14:06.809 --> 00:14:09.350
sort of creating a market because it was kind

00:14:09.350 --> 00:14:11.690
of well -known in Europe and the US, right? They

00:14:11.690 --> 00:14:14.389
had these club -made kind of timeshare facilities

00:14:14.389 --> 00:14:17.529
that had been around since the 1970s, really.

00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:20.419
But in India, this concept of, you know, I'm

00:14:20.419 --> 00:14:22.220
going to pay a fixed fee and this entitles me

00:14:22.220 --> 00:14:24.740
to a two week or three week vacation every year

00:14:24.740 --> 00:14:27.580
in a network of holiday properties rather than

00:14:27.580 --> 00:14:29.960
sort of owning a property outright was a very,

00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:32.039
very new concept. Selling holidays actually had

00:14:32.039 --> 00:14:34.480
to educate people and create the market. So it

00:14:34.480 --> 00:14:36.500
was very, very interesting work. It was very

00:14:36.500 --> 00:14:38.620
interesting being a brand manager trying to communicate

00:14:38.620 --> 00:14:41.039
these ideas. We started off with, you know, this

00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:43.889
classic. holiday, summer vacation locations.

00:14:44.389 --> 00:14:46.370
Then, of course, you obviously realize that,

00:14:46.389 --> 00:14:48.250
you know, those great hill stations are pretty

00:14:48.250 --> 00:14:50.529
much occupied for maximum five months in a year,

00:14:50.549 --> 00:14:53.029
even if you include the off -season fields. The

00:14:53.029 --> 00:14:54.730
property is clear for the other seven months,

00:14:54.750 --> 00:14:57.570
right? Sterling Holidays very smartly launched

00:14:57.570 --> 00:15:00.269
what they call the heritage list of properties,

00:15:00.429 --> 00:15:02.269
which were all linked to pilgrimage sites, you

00:15:02.269 --> 00:15:04.549
know, or some of the more traditional. So they

00:15:04.549 --> 00:15:07.070
started kind of creating destination -themed

00:15:07.070 --> 00:15:09.809
holidays. Which might be, so for example, one

00:15:09.809 --> 00:15:11.509
of the very first heritage properties was in

00:15:11.509 --> 00:15:14.809
Palani in Ramanath. They tried very hard to actually

00:15:14.809 --> 00:15:16.450
get something in Tirumala, which of course was

00:15:16.450 --> 00:15:18.809
not allowed. So they ended up doing, I think

00:15:18.809 --> 00:15:21.340
they dropped the Tirupati. idea after a while.

00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:23.139
But, you know, they were genuinely trying very

00:15:23.139 --> 00:15:25.539
hard to see it. Do you remember any particular

00:15:25.539 --> 00:15:29.100
campaign or interaction with customers which

00:15:29.100 --> 00:15:31.539
kind of stands out for that time? I'll tell you

00:15:31.539 --> 00:15:33.860
one that kind of stands out. So we were trying

00:15:33.860 --> 00:15:37.200
to launch a new sort of golfing holiday package

00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:40.480
series. And we had tied up at the time with Greg

00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:42.559
Norman, you know, the famous golfer of those

00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:46.320
days, to do signature golf courses. The first

00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:48.399
signature golf course was launched in Delhi and

00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:50.720
that went fine. But then we needed to find other

00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:52.600
sort of golfing properties at reasonable prices

00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:54.820
that we could then turn into resorts and launch.

00:15:55.220 --> 00:15:57.940
Coorg was one of the destinations that, you know,

00:15:57.940 --> 00:16:00.200
the Sterling Holidays team ended up choosing.

00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:03.720
So they put me in charge of actually developing

00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:05.940
the campaign, the brochures, the leaflets. I

00:16:05.940 --> 00:16:07.820
hadn't been to the property at the stage and

00:16:07.820 --> 00:16:10.019
the resort hadn't come up. So essentially, we're

00:16:10.019 --> 00:16:12.360
selling the destination as one does. So I went

00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:14.679
to, you know, I wrote, got the creatives to write

00:16:14.679 --> 00:16:17.399
beautiful copy about, you know, Coorg. And I

00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:18.960
had to correct the copy because there was some.

00:16:19.289 --> 00:16:21.610
nonsense about the sound of cheetahs in the early

00:16:21.610 --> 00:16:24.889
morning light. And I had to point out that cheetahs

00:16:24.889 --> 00:16:27.889
had gone extinct in India a couple of years ago.

00:16:28.070 --> 00:16:30.450
I mean, it's a poetic license aside. You can't

00:16:30.450 --> 00:16:33.230
sort of just make up African. You can't play

00:16:33.230 --> 00:16:35.690
with the facts to that extent. Yeah. So there

00:16:35.690 --> 00:16:38.470
we are. We come out and, you know, we do the

00:16:38.470 --> 00:16:40.590
launch ad. We've got the leaflets and the brochures

00:16:40.590 --> 00:16:42.350
and they're sort of ready to be launched to the

00:16:42.350 --> 00:16:45.070
sales team. And the marketing manager says, OK,

00:16:45.090 --> 00:16:47.129
when did you, the head of sales and marketing,

00:16:47.269 --> 00:16:50.710
he says, OK. have you been to the site and have

00:16:50.710 --> 00:16:52.850
you actually, you know, there might be some additional

00:16:52.850 --> 00:16:54.210
things that you want to highlight. And I was

00:16:54.210 --> 00:16:55.429
like, no, I haven't been to the site. He says,

00:16:55.470 --> 00:16:56.789
what are you talking about? How can you market

00:16:56.789 --> 00:16:58.429
a site you've never been to? Which was a good

00:16:58.429 --> 00:17:00.289
point. So the corporate communications head of

00:17:00.289 --> 00:17:02.049
Sterling Holidays and I, a lady called Meera,

00:17:02.129 --> 00:17:04.690
a great friend of mine, we unfortunately drifted

00:17:04.690 --> 00:17:07.990
out of touch, but we went on a trip to Coot.

00:17:08.089 --> 00:17:11.049
And then when we land up at a resort site, we

00:17:11.049 --> 00:17:12.910
discover that one, we've been talking about all

00:17:12.910 --> 00:17:16.069
of these rolling hills and stuff like that. We

00:17:16.069 --> 00:17:18.210
are actually, the resort site is in Virajpit,

00:17:18.309 --> 00:17:20.069
which if you're familiar with Coorg, is kind

00:17:20.069 --> 00:17:27.269
of, you know, not really much. It's barely, you

00:17:27.269 --> 00:17:30.410
could barely call it hilly terrain. So, and which

00:17:30.410 --> 00:17:32.250
was also understandable because remember, this

00:17:32.250 --> 00:17:34.470
was supposed to be a golf resort. So with golf

00:17:34.470 --> 00:17:36.250
resorts, you don't necessarily walk sloping.

00:17:36.250 --> 00:17:40.400
You can't, yeah, you can't. The problem that

00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:42.660
had been written and approved was all about rolling

00:17:42.660 --> 00:17:45.420
hills and misty mornings. And the misty mornings

00:17:45.420 --> 00:17:47.660
did exist, of course. But it was a good thing

00:17:47.660 --> 00:17:52.119
we went and came back. And before we did the

00:17:52.119 --> 00:17:55.420
next lot of printed collaterals, we did a few

00:17:55.420 --> 00:17:57.480
things and included a few actual photographs

00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:00.440
that we had gone and taken at the site. Not a

00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:02.059
single building had come up at this point, but

00:18:02.059 --> 00:18:04.619
we did get some actual views of the Virajpit

00:18:04.619 --> 00:18:09.619
property included in the brochure. Okay, that's

00:18:09.619 --> 00:18:13.299
another break of a different sort. So how did

00:18:13.299 --> 00:18:17.180
SIFI happen? So I found myself at Starling Holidays

00:18:17.180 --> 00:18:19.339
gravitating towards all of the projects that

00:18:19.339 --> 00:18:22.920
included some sort of computerization or digitalization,

00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:24.700
right? And I would always put my hand up and

00:18:24.700 --> 00:18:27.839
volunteer to do that. And I was the, you know,

00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:30.059
first person to say, okay, we need to create

00:18:30.059 --> 00:18:32.059
a website. So they put me in charge of creating

00:18:32.059 --> 00:18:34.319
the website and, you know, getting the agent,

00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:35.880
briefing the agency and getting a website put

00:18:35.880 --> 00:18:38.759
up and all of that. So my boss, when he was doing

00:18:38.759 --> 00:18:41.140
my annual appraisal, and again, I was fortunate

00:18:41.140 --> 00:18:42.880
to have two really great bosses. I moved from

00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:44.640
one to the other, a gentleman called Ravi Warrior

00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:46.400
and then to a gentleman called VN Bhattacharya,

00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:49.779
who was one extremely accomplished, very smart,

00:18:49.900 --> 00:18:52.000
fantastic mentor, fantastic boss. And I remember

00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:57.000
after doing my annual appraisal in April of 98,

00:18:57.359 --> 00:18:59.940
he gave me a good review and he gave me some

00:18:59.940 --> 00:19:02.559
feedback. He said, look. And we started talking,

00:19:02.579 --> 00:19:04.519
as one does, you know, good bosses talk to you

00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:05.920
about your future and development and what do

00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:07.619
you want to do next. And as I was talking, he

00:19:07.619 --> 00:19:09.640
said, you know, everything that I hear that you're

00:19:09.640 --> 00:19:11.799
really passionate about is really in the tech

00:19:11.799 --> 00:19:14.119
field, not so much in the marketing field. So

00:19:14.119 --> 00:19:16.920
my advice to you was think about what you want

00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:19.900
to be doing five years from now. Picture what

00:19:19.900 --> 00:19:22.099
is exciting you and is going to keep you happy.

00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:25.099
And then, you know, figure out what you want

00:19:25.099 --> 00:19:27.079
to do next, because that's how you're going to

00:19:27.079 --> 00:19:30.200
find real satisfaction in a job well done. Because

00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:31.579
you're a good brand manager, you're competent.

00:19:32.039 --> 00:19:34.720
No doubt you can continue to succeed in this

00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:36.519
path. But the thing that really makes you light

00:19:36.519 --> 00:19:39.119
up is something other than pure marketing. So

00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:43.019
that was good advice. And I started casually

00:19:43.019 --> 00:19:45.579
looking around for, you know, at what was happening.

00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:47.599
Quite a few of my friends are actually at this

00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:50.390
point. This is, you know, 1998. Tech was booming.

00:19:50.569 --> 00:19:53.849
That whole Y2K thing that you mentioned was just

00:19:53.849 --> 00:19:56.329
sort of coming up. So lots of people were joining

00:19:56.329 --> 00:20:00.490
the likes of Infosys and TCS and Wipro and, you

00:20:00.490 --> 00:20:02.150
know, starting to make careers in the software

00:20:02.150 --> 00:20:03.950
development world. They were starting to go overseas.

00:20:04.190 --> 00:20:06.230
You know, my batchmates, my friends, even some

00:20:06.230 --> 00:20:08.029
of my juniors were starting to go overseas and

00:20:08.029 --> 00:20:10.390
do interesting things. The thing that I was hooked

00:20:10.390 --> 00:20:13.410
on to was something that was barely sort of known

00:20:13.410 --> 00:20:14.750
in India at that point in time, which is the

00:20:14.750 --> 00:20:16.930
internet, right? I looked around and there were

00:20:16.930 --> 00:20:19.349
really... Less than a handful, you couldn't even

00:20:19.349 --> 00:20:21.170
count on the fingers of one hand the number of

00:20:21.170 --> 00:20:22.869
companies that were doing internet work in India

00:20:22.869 --> 00:20:25.769
in 1998. And one of them, the better known one

00:20:25.769 --> 00:20:28.269
was Rediff, which was Mumbai -based and was a

00:20:28.269 --> 00:20:31.970
website. And the less well -known one was this

00:20:31.970 --> 00:20:34.349
Chennai -based upstart company called Satyam

00:20:34.349 --> 00:20:38.009
Infoway, which was a subsidiary spun out of...

00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:41.980
and they were talking about being India's first

00:20:41.980 --> 00:20:45.200
private ISP at a point when India's ISP policy

00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:47.339
had not been rolled out. So this was an internet

00:20:47.339 --> 00:20:50.019
company that was not licensed to sell internet.

00:20:50.299 --> 00:20:55.019
But I was enthusiastic about the idea. And I

00:20:55.019 --> 00:20:57.039
was very sure that, and of course, the signs

00:20:57.039 --> 00:21:00.059
were there. The BSNL, MTNL were the only ones

00:21:00.059 --> 00:21:02.440
who were giving you that fantastic. Blazing speed.

00:21:02.460 --> 00:21:04.940
I was so excited when I upgraded my home internet

00:21:04.940 --> 00:21:09.039
from 28 .8 kbps to 56 .6 kbps, you know. And

00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:13.680
I remember selling Dishnet DSL. We did a campaign

00:21:13.680 --> 00:21:19.000
for them where 256 kbps broadband was sold at

00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:24.779
30 ,000 rupees a month. So obviously there were

00:21:24.779 --> 00:21:27.339
people who knew how quickly it's going to change

00:21:27.339 --> 00:21:30.119
or at least they took the plunge into it early

00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:33.029
on. That's very true. And remember that at this

00:21:33.029 --> 00:21:35.450
point, the ISP policy hadn't been released. So

00:21:35.450 --> 00:21:37.809
Dishnet wasn't selling internet at the time that

00:21:37.809 --> 00:21:39.809
I'm talking about, right? Nobody was. Because

00:21:39.809 --> 00:21:42.130
they weren't allowed to. Only three companies

00:21:42.130 --> 00:21:45.349
in India could, which was BSNL, BSNL and MTNL.

00:21:45.450 --> 00:21:46.869
These were the only three companies that could

00:21:46.869 --> 00:21:49.210
actually sell internet to anyone, corporate or

00:21:49.210 --> 00:21:52.250
not. They were, of course, we were allowed to

00:21:52.250 --> 00:21:54.329
sell private network services, which is what

00:21:54.329 --> 00:21:56.450
SIFI was doing at the time. They were also doing

00:21:56.450 --> 00:21:59.049
system integration work and particularly around...

00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:01.759
Some areas which are, you know, nobody talks

00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:05.059
about EDI, et cetera, et cetera. But there were

00:22:05.059 --> 00:22:08.720
services B2B, no B2C, no. So I walked into their

00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:11.980
offices with my resume in hand and said, this

00:22:11.980 --> 00:22:14.640
is my resume. Please consider hiring me. I think

00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:16.980
they were a little surprised. But, you know,

00:22:16.980 --> 00:22:19.980
the head of HR listened to me for half an hour.

00:22:20.019 --> 00:22:22.720
She asked some questions. I was very, very enthusiastic.

00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:25.220
She left me sitting in the room opposite the

00:22:25.220 --> 00:22:26.819
reception. I remember this in the ground floor.

00:22:27.710 --> 00:22:29.589
After some time, this gentleman walked in and

00:22:29.589 --> 00:22:31.349
he sat down and we had a really great conversation.

00:22:31.609 --> 00:22:33.849
He asked, I had a lot of ideas to share. We spoke

00:22:33.849 --> 00:22:36.890
for, I think, close to an hour. And he finally

00:22:36.890 --> 00:22:38.430
asked me, he says, OK, this is all very interesting

00:22:38.430 --> 00:22:40.089
and clearly you're enthusiastic and knowledgeable

00:22:40.089 --> 00:22:42.210
about the Internet. What kind of job would you

00:22:42.210 --> 00:22:44.289
like to do here? And I knew that, you know, there

00:22:44.289 --> 00:22:46.829
was no sort of B2C Internet just yet. So I said,

00:22:46.890 --> 00:22:49.349
would you hire me for corporate sales? He said,

00:22:49.390 --> 00:22:51.410
I thought you don't have any sales experience.

00:22:51.549 --> 00:22:53.730
I said, that's right. But I learn on the job.

00:22:54.059 --> 00:22:56.039
For whatever reason, I think he said, yes, okay,

00:22:56.099 --> 00:22:58.039
fine. Come on board. You can start a corporate

00:22:58.039 --> 00:23:01.200
sales. We had a grand total in Chennai of three

00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:03.579
corporate sales people, one of whom was my boss.

00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:06.059
What I did not know, which stood me in good stead

00:23:06.059 --> 00:23:08.160
later on, I found this out much later, was that

00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:10.599
the person I'd been speaking to, of course, as

00:23:10.599 --> 00:23:12.460
I was walking out, I realized that was the CEO

00:23:12.460 --> 00:23:15.039
of the company, R. Ramraj. And what I did not

00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:17.660
know at the time was Mr. R. Ramraj was a close

00:23:17.660 --> 00:23:19.359
friend of Mr. V. N. Bhattacharya because they'd

00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:21.460
gone to IMK, let's say. So there was a conversation

00:23:21.460 --> 00:23:23.380
that happened behind the scenes about, you know,

00:23:23.380 --> 00:23:24.839
he says, you know, there's this girl who works

00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:28.700
for you, Vian, and she's applied here. And fortunately,

00:23:28.819 --> 00:23:30.400
of course, it was Vian who had given me this

00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:31.900
advice about, you know, following your passion

00:23:31.900 --> 00:23:33.619
and all of that. So I was completely open about

00:23:33.619 --> 00:23:35.319
applying to other jobs. It's not like I was doing

00:23:35.319 --> 00:23:38.819
secret fee. So he was also kind enough, obviously,

00:23:38.819 --> 00:23:42.339
to give me a positive. So what was it like selling

00:23:42.339 --> 00:23:45.799
the corporate internet at that point in time?

00:23:46.109 --> 00:23:50.369
Yeah, it was more vision than anything else because

00:23:50.369 --> 00:23:52.410
you had to sell the probability and the potential

00:23:52.410 --> 00:23:54.029
of change because nobody had actually seen what

00:23:54.029 --> 00:23:55.970
the internet could do for businesses in India

00:23:55.970 --> 00:23:58.309
yet. So you had to really sell vision. Through

00:23:58.309 --> 00:24:00.609
a combination of, I think, you know, sheer sort

00:24:00.609 --> 00:24:03.809
of power and luck and whatnot, within one month

00:24:03.809 --> 00:24:06.490
of joining SIFI, I had landed the largest internet

00:24:06.490 --> 00:24:09.210
commerce deal in SIFI's history up to that point.

00:24:09.470 --> 00:24:11.839
So there would be a... They're all small enough

00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:14.519
to fit into one sort of small basement in the

00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:16.900
Velachery Road office in Zafiq. We all crammed

00:24:16.900 --> 00:24:18.279
in there. There was a cake -cutting ceremony.

00:24:18.500 --> 00:24:21.480
And, you know, all of that happened. I was very

00:24:21.480 --> 00:24:24.319
lucky to have that early success. Buoyancy generated

00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:26.420
by that early success with that and a couple

00:24:26.420 --> 00:24:29.200
of other deals. About a month after closing that

00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:32.920
deal, it was a very interesting one because I

00:24:32.920 --> 00:24:36.000
sold it and then I very confidently... So I sold

00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:38.200
this to ColorPlus, which at that time was not

00:24:38.200 --> 00:24:40.589
yet owned by... a larger multinational. It was

00:24:40.589 --> 00:24:43.329
an independent Chennai -based company. So what

00:24:43.329 --> 00:24:46.529
is Color Plus' reason? What did they see? They

00:24:46.529 --> 00:24:48.190
said, we're going to create an online website

00:24:48.190 --> 00:24:50.650
where you will end up doing most of your sales.

00:24:50.930 --> 00:24:53.789
We will build you an Amazon .com in India, but

00:24:53.789 --> 00:24:56.549
for clothes is what we told them. That's the

00:24:56.549 --> 00:24:59.009
vision we told them. And so the CEO said, look,

00:24:59.089 --> 00:25:01.410
I'm happy to try this out because I can see that

00:25:01.410 --> 00:25:03.009
overseas. And, you know, the CEO was very forward

00:25:03.009 --> 00:25:04.529
looking. He said, look, I can see that LL Bean

00:25:04.529 --> 00:25:06.509
is doing this in the US and I can see that the

00:25:06.509 --> 00:25:09.230
Gap is doing this. So I'd like to try it out

00:25:09.230 --> 00:25:11.490
in India. And at this point, nobody else was

00:25:11.490 --> 00:25:13.650
actually selling clothes online. And Color Plus

00:25:13.650 --> 00:25:15.670
was kind of a niche brand, right? Upmarket, but

00:25:15.670 --> 00:25:17.789
niche brand. Wasn't exactly all of it. But he

00:25:17.789 --> 00:25:20.289
said, look, the thing is, we'll do this, but

00:25:20.289 --> 00:25:22.930
early August, but on the condition that you can

00:25:22.930 --> 00:25:24.769
get the site up and running by Deepavali, which

00:25:24.769 --> 00:25:27.609
is October. So I looked at my... technical architect

00:25:27.609 --> 00:25:29.450
who was in the meeting with me, he was like,

00:25:29.509 --> 00:25:32.869
don't say that. And I said, sir, I think we can

00:25:32.869 --> 00:25:35.190
do that for you. And the student was like, what

00:25:35.190 --> 00:25:37.230
did you just say to the man? I said, no, no,

00:25:37.230 --> 00:25:39.589
don't worry about it. We'll go. So I went back

00:25:39.589 --> 00:25:41.250
and I actually talked to the technical team and

00:25:41.250 --> 00:25:44.309
said, no, look, we'll have to do it in a slightly

00:25:44.309 --> 00:25:46.789
different way. And luckily, we were using an

00:25:46.789 --> 00:25:48.230
existing, we were using the Sterling Commerce

00:25:48.230 --> 00:25:51.509
platform. And the product manager was very happy

00:25:51.509 --> 00:25:53.029
that it was going to be a Sterling Commerce sale.

00:25:53.579 --> 00:25:55.900
We said, look, we'll bend over backwards, but

00:25:55.900 --> 00:25:57.680
we'll make it happen. Everyone finally signed

00:25:57.680 --> 00:25:59.859
off on it. So it isn't that I ended up sort of

00:25:59.859 --> 00:26:01.380
committing something that we didn't deliver.

00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:04.140
Our team had to really pull very long nights

00:26:04.140 --> 00:26:05.779
and make it happen. But we did make it happen.

00:26:05.819 --> 00:26:07.819
It was successfully launched on the public day

00:26:07.819 --> 00:26:11.160
in 1998. You know, so we did meet that commitment.

00:26:11.420 --> 00:26:13.680
But the thing that happened for me after that

00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:15.500
was, and I had a couple of other sales successes,

00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:18.079
but that one boosted my confidence to the point

00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:20.759
when I had another long list of ideas. And of

00:26:20.759 --> 00:26:24.059
course, I marched into. Ram Raj at the time didn't

00:26:24.059 --> 00:26:27.160
have a cabin to himself. He had a walled -off

00:26:27.160 --> 00:26:29.500
cubicle. So Ram Raj and the three other sort

00:26:29.500 --> 00:26:31.880
of department business unit heads sort of had

00:26:31.880 --> 00:26:33.559
walled -off cubicles next to him, which were

00:26:33.559 --> 00:26:35.819
kind of half glass and half sort of partition,

00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:37.700
and the rest of it was just open office, right?

00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:41.660
So I marched into his cubicle one day and sat

00:26:41.660 --> 00:26:43.279
down and said, Chief, I have, we used to call

00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:45.259
him Chief, I have these ideas to share with you.

00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:48.400
And he very patiently listened to all of the

00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:50.769
ideas. And he went through the list, actually,

00:26:50.809 --> 00:26:53.170
he was very, very incisive thinker, right? I

00:26:53.170 --> 00:26:56.089
still use lessons that I learned from him. He

00:26:56.089 --> 00:26:58.049
said, okay, this idea is rubbish. It won't work

00:26:58.049 --> 00:27:00.789
for this, this, this reason. This idea has merit,

00:27:00.910 --> 00:27:03.130
but you need to work on it, etc, etc. At the

00:27:03.130 --> 00:27:04.750
end of the conversation, he said, you know, these

00:27:04.750 --> 00:27:06.650
are all good ideas. And I think at least three

00:27:06.650 --> 00:27:08.450
of them are worth implementing. So why don't

00:27:08.450 --> 00:27:11.089
you come on board my team directly and work on

00:27:11.089 --> 00:27:13.450
executing these things? My initial reaction was

00:27:13.450 --> 00:27:16.420
horror. absolute horror. My job is not to go

00:27:16.420 --> 00:27:18.299
and execute all these ideas. My job is only to

00:27:18.299 --> 00:27:23.700
give ideas. That's such a wonderful lesson, Divya,

00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:26.680
because a lot of people think that giving out

00:27:26.680 --> 00:27:30.500
the idea and their job is done. Yeah, I can learn

00:27:30.500 --> 00:27:33.819
that lesson early. So, look, if you're going

00:27:33.819 --> 00:27:37.680
to have the courage and the conviction to think

00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:39.660
that this idea is going to change things for

00:27:39.660 --> 00:27:41.980
the company and we should do it, then you should,

00:27:41.980 --> 00:27:45.259
you know, put your time and money where your

00:27:45.259 --> 00:27:47.059
mouth is and come and actually work on it. So

00:27:47.059 --> 00:27:49.700
give me one of those things that you, at that

00:27:49.700 --> 00:27:52.160
point, you know, you came up with, which today

00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:55.259
in retrospect looks almost obvious, but at the

00:27:55.259 --> 00:27:58.019
time was not. Yeah. So I was, as I said, a tech

00:27:58.019 --> 00:27:59.859
enthusiast. So I said that we should actually

00:27:59.859 --> 00:28:03.380
start an e -learning division, which took a couple

00:28:03.380 --> 00:28:05.819
of years, but I said, and my whole model was,

00:28:05.900 --> 00:28:08.099
you know, the company that's doing great online

00:28:08.099 --> 00:28:11.730
tech training and programming, et cetera. It's

00:28:11.730 --> 00:28:14.170
a company called ZDNet. At that time, ZDNet was

00:28:14.170 --> 00:28:15.730
the US -based thing, which was actually offering

00:28:15.730 --> 00:28:18.529
a lot of content. And I said, we should make

00:28:18.529 --> 00:28:21.230
an Indian ZDNet. And lo and behold, actually,

00:28:21.269 --> 00:28:23.190
I was given the opportunity to go and sign. We

00:28:23.190 --> 00:28:27.690
ended up in 1990, 2000, early 2000. I ended up

00:28:27.690 --> 00:28:29.690
going along with a senior colleague and signing

00:28:29.690 --> 00:28:33.069
an agreement with ZDNet to bring that kind of

00:28:33.069 --> 00:28:35.849
services to Siffin, India. Literally a few days

00:28:35.849 --> 00:28:37.910
after I joined, Ram Rajasthin officially has

00:28:37.910 --> 00:28:39.829
a... you know, as a member of his team heading

00:28:39.829 --> 00:28:42.609
strategic initiatives, quote unquote. Ram Raj

00:28:42.609 --> 00:28:44.150
had a town hall meeting, which we used to do

00:28:44.150 --> 00:28:46.490
every month. And he said, so you've heard that

00:28:46.490 --> 00:28:48.289
Infosys is planning to list on NASDAQ, right?

00:28:48.369 --> 00:28:49.589
And we said, yeah, yeah, we were all excited

00:28:49.589 --> 00:28:51.390
because an Indian company going and listing on

00:28:51.390 --> 00:28:54.309
US stock exchange. He said, this time next year,

00:28:54.390 --> 00:28:58.109
SIFI will be listed on NASDAQ. We were all, what?

00:28:58.630 --> 00:29:00.829
You should have heard a pin drop. There was absolute

00:29:00.829 --> 00:29:03.430
dead silence in that town hall with about 70

00:29:03.430 --> 00:29:06.509
people. And, but we were, you know, when we recovered,

00:29:06.630 --> 00:29:10.299
I think there was a mix of. Shock, elation, disbelief.

00:29:10.339 --> 00:29:14.480
Everything. But the end of that story is that

00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:19.980
almost a year after that, October 19th, 1999,

00:29:20.140 --> 00:29:23.859
he told us this in November 1998. October 19th,

00:29:23.859 --> 00:29:27.099
1999, we were listed on the first internet company

00:29:27.099 --> 00:29:30.359
to list on NASDAQ. So I was very fortunate to

00:29:30.359 --> 00:29:33.539
be a part of that journey, to be a junior cog

00:29:33.539 --> 00:29:37.160
in that machine. But a team which... took us

00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:40.440
to NASDAQ, launched and pioneered a whole lot

00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:43.599
of things. In fact, a lot of people don't realize,

00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:47.259
but SIFI and a few other players played a huge

00:29:47.259 --> 00:29:49.859
part in influencing the privatization of the

00:29:49.859 --> 00:29:52.480
internet in India. The privatization of the internet

00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:54.859
in India, the ISP policy was announced in September

00:29:54.859 --> 00:29:58.059
1998. SIFI launched its consumer internet services

00:29:58.059 --> 00:30:00.420
on the back of that. Internet in India started

00:30:00.420 --> 00:30:02.259
its journey there. SIFI did a lot of interesting

00:30:02.259 --> 00:30:04.160
things because most people didn't have computers.

00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:06.779
They didn't have internet -capable mobile phones

00:30:06.779 --> 00:30:09.980
back in the late 1990s, early 2000s. So SIPI

00:30:09.980 --> 00:30:12.579
pioneered cyber cafes, a chain of cyber cafes

00:30:12.579 --> 00:30:15.339
called, you know, across the country. So people

00:30:15.339 --> 00:30:17.259
could come and use shared computing infrastructure

00:30:17.259 --> 00:30:19.880
to access the internet. So it was a groundbreaking

00:30:19.880 --> 00:30:21.859
company, power -breaking company in so many ways.

00:30:22.039 --> 00:30:24.799
I learned a lot. And again, we had a murderous

00:30:24.799 --> 00:30:27.170
row of the top talent from everywhere. from every

00:30:27.170 --> 00:30:30.150
top company, whether it was tech talent or marketing

00:30:30.150 --> 00:30:32.210
talent or sales talent or operational talent

00:30:32.210 --> 00:30:34.329
or financial talent, we just had top talent.

00:30:34.410 --> 00:30:36.630
So everywhere I looked, there were people that

00:30:36.630 --> 00:30:38.609
I could learn from, people who mentored me, people

00:30:38.609 --> 00:30:41.069
who were doing amazing things and you got to

00:30:41.069 --> 00:30:42.829
be working alongside them and just watching and

00:30:42.829 --> 00:30:44.369
learning from them and, you know, being part

00:30:44.369 --> 00:30:46.809
of that journey. And that was how I got started

00:30:46.809 --> 00:30:50.359
on the internet. The rocket took off. We listed

00:30:50.359 --> 00:30:52.500
on NASDAQ. We did the world acquisition, went

00:30:52.500 --> 00:30:55.880
back to NASDAQ. So in February 2000, to go and

00:30:55.880 --> 00:30:57.779
finance the India world deal, because we didn't

00:30:57.779 --> 00:30:59.660
have enough money in the bank to do that deal.

00:30:59.740 --> 00:31:01.920
At the time, it was, you know, $100 million.

00:31:02.119 --> 00:31:04.220
It was 500 crores at that time, US dollar exchange

00:31:04.220 --> 00:31:07.160
rate being what it was then. It was the largest

00:31:07.160 --> 00:31:09.839
cash and stock merger and acquisition, acquisition

00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:11.700
that had been done in India up to that point.

00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:15.039
So, you know, in the US, AOL had just taken over

00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:17.480
Time Warner. Really, the rocket was rocket ship.

00:31:17.539 --> 00:31:20.200
People believed that the bubble was at its peak.

00:31:20.299 --> 00:31:24.079
Let's put it that way. Yeah. But I'm also saying,

00:31:24.099 --> 00:31:27.799
Divya, that, sorry, that your learning should

00:31:27.799 --> 00:31:30.420
have been not just hockey stick. Is there another

00:31:30.420 --> 00:31:33.779
way of putting it? Because you're literally doing

00:31:33.779 --> 00:31:37.380
new things. In retrospect, it looked like committing

00:31:37.380 --> 00:31:41.200
to deliver a website in two months was almost

00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:44.460
like, yeah, so what? But then to say, I'll go

00:31:44.460 --> 00:31:47.059
and list on NASDAQ, figuring out everything that

00:31:47.059 --> 00:31:49.759
needed to be done, ensuring that it was all in

00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:52.960
place. And how did you go about figuring out

00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:56.000
or you said you had the talent in -house or it

00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:58.839
was a combination of several things that worked

00:31:58.839 --> 00:32:02.839
in your favor? So definitely both, right? Because

00:32:02.839 --> 00:32:04.579
the one thing that I learned was Ram Raj didn't

00:32:04.579 --> 00:32:06.240
say that lightly, right? He'd been doing, this

00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:08.200
had been part of his vision from the day that

00:32:08.200 --> 00:32:09.940
he agreed to come on board as a professional

00:32:09.940 --> 00:32:12.279
CEO of SIFI. He did several things. He struck

00:32:12.279 --> 00:32:15.640
a deal with Ramaling Raju and the Satyam family

00:32:15.640 --> 00:32:17.160
to say, I'm going to run Safiya as a completely

00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:18.819
independent company. We'll have a completely

00:32:18.819 --> 00:32:21.140
independent board. We may be initially completely

00:32:21.140 --> 00:32:23.640
owned by Satyam Computer Services, but I will

00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:25.500
hire a separate team. We will not go to market

00:32:25.500 --> 00:32:28.240
with any of the other Satyam divisions. We will

00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:29.779
chart our own destiny because we're an internet

00:32:29.779 --> 00:32:32.720
company. We are not a software services company.

00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:35.579
So we don't run businesses. The rest of your

00:32:35.579 --> 00:32:37.779
business looks different from ours. So we will

00:32:37.779 --> 00:32:40.730
run this differently. And we are going to become

00:32:40.730 --> 00:32:42.529
independently listed on the stock exchanges.

00:32:42.809 --> 00:32:44.430
And I think very quickly after that, he told

00:32:44.430 --> 00:32:47.630
me later that he had decided that it would be

00:32:47.630 --> 00:32:50.009
quicker to list overseas than it would be to

00:32:50.009 --> 00:32:52.309
list in India, which is why we... That he was

00:32:52.309 --> 00:32:55.910
right. Yeah, absolutely. And there was a lot

00:32:55.910 --> 00:32:58.670
of capital being made available to internet companies

00:32:58.670 --> 00:33:00.490
at the time. So Sifu would have been foolish

00:33:00.490 --> 00:33:03.170
to miss that opportunity, right? So we didn't

00:33:03.170 --> 00:33:05.049
miss that opportunity. And a lot of groundwork

00:33:05.049 --> 00:33:07.250
and thinking had gone into that point. And it

00:33:07.250 --> 00:33:10.819
was... that vision which inspired all of us so

00:33:10.819 --> 00:33:13.759
i think great leadership is both inspiration

00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:16.859
and preparation and ramraj really taught me a

00:33:16.859 --> 00:33:18.539
lot because he embodied that in so many ways

00:33:18.539 --> 00:33:22.740
right um the you and i may know in a private

00:33:22.740 --> 00:33:25.440
chat earlier we're talking about how one of the

00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:27.359
key skills one needs to learn is how to read

00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:31.400
a room and you know how to talk to people and

00:33:31.400 --> 00:33:34.259
and and that was something that i learned from

00:33:35.069 --> 00:33:37.029
watching Ram Raj and learning from Ram Raj because

00:33:37.029 --> 00:33:38.829
it was something that I was not inherently good

00:33:38.829 --> 00:33:43.329
at so I had other mentors too but of course he

00:33:43.329 --> 00:33:45.690
stands out and he still continues to be a mentor

00:33:45.690 --> 00:33:48.670
whose advice I rely on today so yeah because

00:33:48.670 --> 00:33:53.450
like you were saying I would say that we be sold

00:33:53.450 --> 00:33:55.690
up but we also came crashing down to earth a

00:33:55.690 --> 00:33:57.630
few months later with the dot -com bust right

00:33:57.630 --> 00:34:02.630
so And very quickly, the stock options, which

00:34:02.630 --> 00:34:05.390
we were all very excited about in terms of as

00:34:05.390 --> 00:34:07.990
we were watching the notional value climb, had

00:34:07.990 --> 00:34:11.309
within a matter of months, weeks if not months,

00:34:11.469 --> 00:34:15.349
become a penny stock. So when the fall came,

00:34:15.670 --> 00:34:18.690
it was a very sharp fall. And we were among the

00:34:18.690 --> 00:34:22.269
smaller fish in that large pond, right? Everybody

00:34:22.269 --> 00:34:24.829
from the Amazons of the world, the EBAs of the

00:34:24.829 --> 00:34:28.010
world, nine out of 10 startups that had listed

00:34:28.010 --> 00:34:30.840
on Nasdaq. as internet companies actually failed

00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:33.760
and shut down. Even some of the giants like AOL

00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:37.940
today, kind of, you know, AOL kind of exists

00:34:37.940 --> 00:34:40.260
as sort of a very tiny company somewhere. It

00:34:40.260 --> 00:34:41.960
still exists as a corporate entity, but you know,

00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:45.139
that AOL -Time Warner merger obviously split

00:34:45.139 --> 00:34:48.260
up and Warner Brothers went its own way and Time

00:34:48.260 --> 00:34:50.679
magazine shut down and all of that happened,

00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:54.039
right? So the world changed a lot after that

00:34:54.039 --> 00:34:57.119
dot -com bust. I know a lot of people were very

00:34:57.119 --> 00:35:02.099
wealthy. depressed. But fortunately for SIFI,

00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:04.099
most of the revenue was still coming from the

00:35:04.099 --> 00:35:07.219
B2B business and was on a much more stable footing.

00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:09.860
So while our stock value had perhaps crashed,

00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:12.519
our business was robust and was continuing to

00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:16.760
grow at a steady pace. So SIFI was not, you know,

00:35:16.760 --> 00:35:20.239
of course we were, everyone was badly impacted.

00:35:20.460 --> 00:35:22.559
I wouldn't say not, but our business was not

00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:25.039
impacted. What went away was all of these things

00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:26.519
of, you know, people coming to us and say, you

00:35:26.519 --> 00:35:29.389
should, SIFI should acquire us. I won't name

00:35:29.389 --> 00:35:31.469
names, but there were several sort of archmages

00:35:31.469 --> 00:35:35.829
which approached SIFI and said, you should buy

00:35:35.829 --> 00:35:38.050
us out. Like AOL bought over and took over Time

00:35:38.050 --> 00:35:41.210
Warner. You know, that sort of thing. Right?

00:35:41.510 --> 00:35:46.369
But... No, it was, like you said, it was one

00:35:46.369 --> 00:35:49.530
of those times which today, in retrospect, two

00:35:49.530 --> 00:35:52.710
decades ago, people don't remember. They remember

00:35:52.710 --> 00:35:55.650
the crash of 2008 because it's more current.

00:35:56.159 --> 00:35:58.880
But what happened is that it literally wiped

00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:01.519
out a whole lot of companies in India and people

00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:03.940
began. I remember articles saying that the Internet

00:36:03.940 --> 00:36:06.360
is just another fad. Nothing is really going

00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:09.260
to happen. This is not going to, you know, take

00:36:09.260 --> 00:36:12.699
off or it's going to be one of those things that

00:36:12.699 --> 00:36:16.159
happen. And it was literally, you know, step

00:36:16.159 --> 00:36:18.559
by step, which is why I'm saying the people who

00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:21.659
stuck around, which you did, you figured out,

00:36:21.659 --> 00:36:25.699
you believed in it. deeply enough to say that,

00:36:25.719 --> 00:36:29.619
you know, that this is where I think the future

00:36:29.619 --> 00:36:32.940
and that is hardest to do when things are down.

00:36:33.539 --> 00:36:36.539
It's very easy to do when, you know, markets

00:36:36.539 --> 00:36:41.559
are growing at X multiples every year. But it's

00:36:41.559 --> 00:36:44.019
very different when you have to try and figure

00:36:44.019 --> 00:36:46.320
out, okay, where do I stand? And then trying

00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:49.119
to figure out where do you go? So how did you

00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:51.550
make that decision? on the next thing because

00:36:51.550 --> 00:36:54.510
you you took over you you grew businesses of

00:36:54.510 --> 00:36:59.150
cognizant in north america and europe so i mean

00:36:59.150 --> 00:37:01.489
i'm saying we've just touched upon the early

00:37:01.489 --> 00:37:03.969
part of your career and we're already 45 minutes

00:37:03.969 --> 00:37:07.670
into this yeah maybe maybe i should shorthand

00:37:07.670 --> 00:37:11.230
things a little bit more um but so but i want

00:37:11.230 --> 00:37:12.750
to address two things which you said which i

00:37:12.750 --> 00:37:15.429
think are relevant uh lessons which i learned

00:37:15.429 --> 00:37:17.510
which was again i said as i was fortunate to

00:37:17.510 --> 00:37:20.340
have uh smart people around me who advised me

00:37:20.340 --> 00:37:22.920
and guided me. And I was able to learn from them.

00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:26.000
One of the things that I had formed a deep conviction

00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:28.179
about was that, you know, you can't put the genie

00:37:28.179 --> 00:37:30.860
back in the bottle about the internet and the

00:37:30.860 --> 00:37:32.539
potential of the internet. We did believe that

00:37:32.539 --> 00:37:34.760
there were some other sort of other factors which

00:37:34.760 --> 00:37:37.480
needed to fall in place for the internet to truly

00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:39.579
become transformational in India. And that was

00:37:39.579 --> 00:37:41.380
an early other early trend that we had a lot

00:37:41.380 --> 00:37:43.679
of conviction about, which is when mobile internet

00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:46.380
really proliferates. that's when it's going to

00:37:46.380 --> 00:37:48.099
be transformational for the vast majority of

00:37:48.099 --> 00:37:50.440
India because most people will never access the

00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:53.519
internet through computers. It will end up being,

00:37:53.619 --> 00:37:55.559
though, you know, even we didn't at that time

00:37:55.559 --> 00:37:57.300
anticipate just how large it would be and how

00:37:57.300 --> 00:37:59.960
transformational it would be. I remember helping

00:37:59.960 --> 00:38:03.099
Ram Raj write speeches about how, you know, feature

00:38:03.099 --> 00:38:06.059
phone, Kerala fishermen with feature phone access

00:38:06.059 --> 00:38:08.199
were able to SMS and find out which port was

00:38:08.199 --> 00:38:10.159
getting the better prices for fish that day.

00:38:10.619 --> 00:38:13.119
And therefore, how mobile technology combined

00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:15.300
with Internet technology was going to completely

00:38:15.300 --> 00:38:18.239
transform the lives of every person in India

00:38:18.239 --> 00:38:20.760
over the next two decades. I was helping him

00:38:20.760 --> 00:38:23.260
write those. And we had that deep conviction,

00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:26.679
which never changed. So that kind of helped me

00:38:26.679 --> 00:38:29.400
to keep up. I mean, obviously, it is the first

00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:32.079
major sort of economic crisis I had seen in my

00:38:32.079 --> 00:38:35.119
career, but certainly not the first seen by my

00:38:35.119 --> 00:38:38.460
parents or, you know, my. seniors at my employers.

00:38:38.559 --> 00:38:40.639
So people, you know, talked about what they had

00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:42.219
gone through and the kind of turbulent times

00:38:42.219 --> 00:38:45.659
that they had confronted and to just try and

00:38:45.659 --> 00:38:48.820
find a firm place to sit and to keep your feet

00:38:48.820 --> 00:38:51.460
on the ground and continue to work hard and,

00:38:51.500 --> 00:38:55.019
you know, find opportunities in the day -to -day

00:38:55.019 --> 00:38:58.239
as well. So I ended up moving to Cognizant at

00:38:58.239 --> 00:39:00.320
also at a time when Cognizant was a relatively

00:39:00.320 --> 00:39:04.280
young company. And again, this was, it had not

00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:07.159
hit a billion dollars in revenue. when I joined,

00:39:07.219 --> 00:39:11.539
which was 2005, May. But the other thing that

00:39:11.539 --> 00:39:15.159
I did join was also a practice which in an area

00:39:15.159 --> 00:39:16.840
where Cognizant was less well -known for, which

00:39:16.840 --> 00:39:18.260
was infrastructure services, because that was

00:39:18.260 --> 00:39:20.420
my background. I'd come from SIFI where I'd helped

00:39:20.420 --> 00:39:22.380
to set up a remote infrastructure management

00:39:22.380 --> 00:39:24.340
business and I understood the networking space

00:39:24.340 --> 00:39:29.719
quite well. So I joined that practice in Bangalore

00:39:29.719 --> 00:39:32.900
and I initially helped to set up the consulting

00:39:32.900 --> 00:39:36.710
capability. business development capability with

00:39:36.710 --> 00:39:40.489
a group of you know i was relatively still quite

00:39:40.489 --> 00:39:42.309
you know barely 10 years out of business school

00:39:42.309 --> 00:39:46.090
and even younger group of smart mbas and engineers

00:39:46.090 --> 00:39:48.969
from top schools that's the team that we have

00:39:48.969 --> 00:39:53.789
and again we we had a lot of passion and conviction

00:39:53.789 --> 00:39:56.829
and ended up winning some lighthouse deals stealing

00:39:56.829 --> 00:39:59.130
stealing the business from the more established

00:39:59.130 --> 00:40:02.769
competition like TCS and Wipro and HCL and even

00:40:02.769 --> 00:40:04.989
IBM and Accenture in a couple of cases. And that

00:40:04.989 --> 00:40:08.110
gave us a lot of confidence and momentum. And

00:40:08.110 --> 00:40:11.489
I ended up moving to London to help set up the

00:40:11.489 --> 00:40:14.210
infrastructure services business in Europe for

00:40:14.210 --> 00:40:15.889
Corbin's at the time. And I lived in London for

00:40:15.889 --> 00:40:18.030
five years doing this. When I went, I was the

00:40:18.030 --> 00:40:20.010
first person on the ground. We had no customers

00:40:20.010 --> 00:40:24.579
in the UK or Europe. So, but we ended up doing

00:40:24.579 --> 00:40:26.440
a couple of deals and we ended up at close to

00:40:26.440 --> 00:40:28.059
a million dollars in my first year of operation.

00:40:28.199 --> 00:40:30.320
The second year of operation. How did you land

00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:33.239
your, so how did you land your first deal? How

00:40:33.239 --> 00:40:35.360
did you go about meeting customers? What was

00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:39.980
it that you did? You leverage your friends and

00:40:39.980 --> 00:40:41.900
colleagues, right? I went around and made friends

00:40:41.900 --> 00:40:43.440
with every client partner in the London office

00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:45.340
who was selling app services. And I said, can

00:40:45.340 --> 00:40:46.880
I come and sit with you in a customer meeting?

00:40:47.159 --> 00:40:49.159
I won't sell anything. I'm just there to listen.

00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:51.980
So please take me with you. And I did that for

00:40:51.980 --> 00:40:55.159
a month. And out of that came some of our early

00:40:55.159 --> 00:40:57.840
sort of customer opportunities, including at

00:40:57.840 --> 00:41:00.219
customers like Lloyds, TSB Bank and AstraZeneca.

00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:05.039
And, you know, like I said, when you listen to

00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:06.960
what customers need and you find an opportunity,

00:41:07.179 --> 00:41:08.900
the problem that nobody else is solving, none

00:41:08.900 --> 00:41:11.179
of the other vendors is even looking at. And

00:41:11.179 --> 00:41:12.820
you say, look, I'll solve this problem for you.

00:41:12.860 --> 00:41:14.960
I'll save this money for you. I'll remove this

00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:17.639
sort of quality issue for you. People are willing

00:41:17.639 --> 00:41:20.539
to try you out. And that's what we did. We kind

00:41:20.539 --> 00:41:23.719
of sneaked in almost. And then after that, once

00:41:23.719 --> 00:41:26.579
we established enough of footing, we also won

00:41:26.579 --> 00:41:29.360
RFPs in competitive situations against the competition.

00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:33.420
So as I said, again, the team grew very rapidly.

00:41:33.539 --> 00:41:37.039
We did $7 .5 million in the second year of operations,

00:41:37.219 --> 00:41:39.599
$25 million in third year of operations. By the

00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:43.300
time I moved back to India to a different division

00:41:43.300 --> 00:41:45.360
of Cognizant, and this was at the beginning of

00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:48.519
2013, we were doing $110 million a year. So zero

00:41:48.519 --> 00:41:52.050
to $110 million a year in five years. Yeah. So

00:41:52.050 --> 00:41:54.469
it looks like the check you signed for 500 crores

00:41:54.469 --> 00:41:58.550
earlier on was just a portent of things. My money,

00:41:58.590 --> 00:42:02.110
by the way, but yeah. That continued to be a

00:42:02.110 --> 00:42:04.750
trend. I mean, I will say all of my employers

00:42:04.750 --> 00:42:07.630
have treated me very fairly and compensated me

00:42:07.630 --> 00:42:10.849
and all of that. So no complaints. But certainly

00:42:10.849 --> 00:42:15.929
the disparity that continues is the size of the...

00:42:16.250 --> 00:42:18.090
the money that other people's money that you

00:42:18.090 --> 00:42:21.329
manage and deploy and your own money that you

00:42:21.329 --> 00:42:25.449
manage and deploy. That remains quite considerable.

00:42:25.849 --> 00:42:29.550
That will always be a kind of the thing. So I'm

00:42:29.550 --> 00:42:32.289
saying now, I wish we had more time to spend

00:42:32.289 --> 00:42:34.969
on this, but your venture capital, how did you

00:42:34.969 --> 00:42:38.730
decide that you then wanted to get into, you

00:42:38.730 --> 00:42:41.150
know, was it one thing that you felt that I have

00:42:41.150 --> 00:42:44.010
done enough, but I think if I get, what were

00:42:44.010 --> 00:42:47.469
your motivations? Yeah. So I'd been, you know,

00:42:47.469 --> 00:42:49.389
after Cognizant, I was with Microsoft for five

00:42:49.389 --> 00:42:51.289
years, during which I moved to Singapore and

00:42:51.289 --> 00:42:53.210
I moved to another very fine company called ServiceNow.

00:42:53.349 --> 00:42:56.369
All of these are great IT companies. But at this

00:42:56.369 --> 00:42:58.349
point, I started wondering, I was questioning

00:42:58.349 --> 00:43:00.289
myself. I have, you know, I was looking at other

00:43:00.289 --> 00:43:01.829
people. Some of my mentors were retiring from

00:43:01.829 --> 00:43:04.050
Microsoft after 30 -year careers, etc. So I remember

00:43:04.050 --> 00:43:05.789
having a very memorable conversation saying,

00:43:05.949 --> 00:43:07.909
you know, this is great. I'm really enjoying

00:43:07.909 --> 00:43:09.670
what I'm doing. And I love Microsoft. I love

00:43:09.670 --> 00:43:12.070
my colleagues. But I find myself wondering, what

00:43:12.070 --> 00:43:14.559
am I actually... you know, doing for the world.

00:43:15.099 --> 00:43:16.760
It's my personal purpose, this, that, and the

00:43:16.760 --> 00:43:19.059
other. She was very patient and listening to

00:43:19.059 --> 00:43:20.940
me. And she said, you know what, when I was kind

00:43:20.940 --> 00:43:24.099
of questioning myself about 20 years ago in a

00:43:24.099 --> 00:43:27.739
similar point of my career, what worked for me

00:43:27.739 --> 00:43:30.179
was I took a sabbatical. I took a year off. And

00:43:30.179 --> 00:43:32.639
I was completely horrified at the very idea of

00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:36.599
taking time off. The longest gaps between jobs

00:43:36.599 --> 00:43:43.219
I'd had was one week to this point. But the motels

00:43:43.219 --> 00:43:47.780
certainly are completely, you know, I mean, it's

00:43:47.780 --> 00:43:51.380
wonderful that you found both purpose and you

00:43:51.380 --> 00:43:53.480
enjoyed what you were doing. Otherwise, you wouldn't

00:43:53.480 --> 00:43:55.679
have, you know, it's such a high pressure environment,

00:43:55.940 --> 00:43:59.820
which people on the outside don't realize. Because

00:43:59.820 --> 00:44:02.079
while you talked of growing the business from,

00:44:02.179 --> 00:44:05.219
you know, 7 million to 100 million in three years,

00:44:05.400 --> 00:44:08.480
I'm sure you understood what was involved at

00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:11.650
every stage. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Certainly, I think,

00:44:11.650 --> 00:44:14.610
look, one of the things that you learn in which

00:44:14.610 --> 00:44:16.889
is a truism in life that I find, at least it

00:44:16.889 --> 00:44:19.050
works for me, is teamwork makes the dream work.

00:44:19.130 --> 00:44:22.010
Right. Don't try to do everything yourself. When

00:44:22.010 --> 00:44:23.789
I first started off being a people manager, I

00:44:23.789 --> 00:44:26.050
was terrible at it because like many other bright

00:44:26.050 --> 00:44:28.449
young people of my age, you start off as a really

00:44:28.449 --> 00:44:30.130
outstanding individual contributor, even as a

00:44:30.130 --> 00:44:32.050
salesperson. The early success that I saw was,

00:44:32.150 --> 00:44:34.989
you know, me as a sort of going and taking chances

00:44:34.989 --> 00:44:38.219
and, you know, relying on my. ability to speak

00:44:38.219 --> 00:44:40.019
and persuade people etc but that doesn't sustain

00:44:40.019 --> 00:44:41.940
right if you want to really grow and succeed

00:44:41.940 --> 00:44:45.119
and the job of a leader is to create an environment

00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:47.599
where your entire team is able to do their best

00:44:47.599 --> 00:44:51.079
work that's what i learned from my mentors and

00:44:51.079 --> 00:44:53.119
that's what i've continued to believe so if you

00:44:53.119 --> 00:44:56.679
do that then you find success at that scale um

00:44:56.679 --> 00:44:58.920
if you if you're not able to inspire people and

00:44:58.920 --> 00:45:01.599
take them along with you and work together towards

00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:03.900
those common goals none of these big goals are

00:45:03.900 --> 00:45:07.000
achievable right um so so that is something that

00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:09.639
I truly, truly believe and continue to believe.

00:45:10.619 --> 00:45:13.960
And the other thing is, I think somebody had

00:45:13.960 --> 00:45:15.679
made the comment, I think in your LinkedIn post,

00:45:15.800 --> 00:45:17.820
when you folks had talked about this session,

00:45:17.900 --> 00:45:21.920
somebody had said, I'm something about change

00:45:21.920 --> 00:45:25.260
and how to handle change. And another thing that

00:45:25.260 --> 00:45:26.960
I deeply believe that I've learned over the years

00:45:26.960 --> 00:45:29.340
is the best way to handle change is to create

00:45:29.340 --> 00:45:31.920
it yourself. There's no avoiding it. There's

00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:34.260
no running away from it. If you try and stab...

00:45:34.940 --> 00:45:37.400
You know, it'll be like that too. It's like standing

00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:39.420
in the way of one of an avalanche coming at you.

00:45:39.500 --> 00:45:41.559
It's going to bury you and move on, you know.

00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:44.460
So it's best that you try to be part of that

00:45:44.460 --> 00:45:47.440
change and adapt to it in that way. So change

00:45:47.440 --> 00:45:50.300
is the only constant. So then you were talking

00:45:50.300 --> 00:45:55.780
of, yeah. No, so you were talking of the mentor

00:45:55.780 --> 00:45:58.000
telling you or the person who's been at Microsoft

00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:00.699
telling you that at some point take a sabbatical,

00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:03.059
which you didn't want to do. Which I did not

00:46:03.059 --> 00:46:06.090
want. And that idea kind of cooked in my head

00:46:06.090 --> 00:46:08.329
for a while. But then I realized that, look,

00:46:08.389 --> 00:46:12.349
the more I did, I did actually think through

00:46:12.349 --> 00:46:14.809
some meaningful things. And I realized that there

00:46:14.809 --> 00:46:17.610
has been causes that I've consistently been interested

00:46:17.610 --> 00:46:19.929
in, have, you know, for example, donated charitably

00:46:19.929 --> 00:46:22.429
to or also volunteered time to consistently over

00:46:22.429 --> 00:46:25.170
the years. Right. And again, my family is very,

00:46:25.250 --> 00:46:27.949
very has always been very committed to charitable

00:46:27.949 --> 00:46:31.250
giving and making sure that we give away money

00:46:31.250 --> 00:46:34.360
to good causes and so on. So there were three

00:46:34.360 --> 00:46:36.440
causes which have consistently been at the top

00:46:36.440 --> 00:46:38.199
of my list. One is climate and the environment.

00:46:38.539 --> 00:46:40.599
I do strongly believe we need to do something

00:46:40.599 --> 00:46:42.440
so that our planet is habitable for ourselves

00:46:42.440 --> 00:46:46.019
and for the generations to come. Women's development

00:46:46.019 --> 00:46:50.360
issues are also very close to my heart. And bridging

00:46:50.360 --> 00:46:51.980
the digital skills divide. As I said, I have

00:46:51.980 --> 00:46:54.260
a very strong conviction that this technology

00:46:54.260 --> 00:46:57.179
genie can't be put back in the bottle. And it's

00:46:57.179 --> 00:46:59.599
going to continue to transform the world. And

00:46:59.599 --> 00:47:02.809
it's a huge predictor of... success or failure,

00:47:02.909 --> 00:47:06.110
your ability to have access to digital skills

00:47:06.110 --> 00:47:09.349
or not have access to digital skills. And that

00:47:09.349 --> 00:47:12.510
I think bridging that divide is the key to bridging

00:47:12.510 --> 00:47:15.309
other kinds of divides, the social divide, the

00:47:15.309 --> 00:47:18.329
wealth divide, and all the other sort of divides

00:47:18.329 --> 00:47:21.010
that we have. So the more I thought about it,

00:47:21.070 --> 00:47:22.869
the more I realized that if I'm sitting in the

00:47:22.869 --> 00:47:24.789
corporate world, I'll continue to succeed, but

00:47:24.789 --> 00:47:26.730
there's not going to be enough mental space for

00:47:26.730 --> 00:47:29.429
me to really explore what to do in these other

00:47:29.429 --> 00:47:33.460
areas. And I was very, you know, again, most

00:47:33.460 --> 00:47:35.940
of my employers have treated me well enough that

00:47:35.940 --> 00:47:38.000
I'm in a situation where I could take financial

00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:41.460
risks, right? To say, okay, I can step away from

00:47:41.460 --> 00:47:44.619
the security of a monthly salary and explore

00:47:44.619 --> 00:47:46.480
some of these things. Of course, the timing of

00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:49.900
when I did this was not conscious. So Jan 2020

00:47:49.900 --> 00:47:53.159
was when I put in my papers at ServiceNow. And

00:47:53.159 --> 00:47:55.760
I realized two months from then, the world would

00:47:55.760 --> 00:47:57.780
be completely different from anything any of

00:47:57.780 --> 00:48:01.849
us had imagined. But it turned out to be, you

00:48:01.849 --> 00:48:04.010
know, a blessing in disguise because we got our

00:48:04.010 --> 00:48:06.630
venture fund or funds off the ground during the

00:48:06.630 --> 00:48:09.489
pandemic. Our fund is a pandemic baby. Some of

00:48:09.489 --> 00:48:11.329
the other organizations that I spent time with,

00:48:11.389 --> 00:48:13.190
including Aspire for Her, which was started by

00:48:13.190 --> 00:48:15.769
my junior Madhura from Madhura Dasgupta Sinha

00:48:15.769 --> 00:48:18.849
from XLRI. That's an organization that focuses

00:48:18.849 --> 00:48:22.010
on getting women to enter and stay in the workforce

00:48:22.010 --> 00:48:24.750
because India has this problem of women's labor

00:48:24.750 --> 00:48:27.610
force participation being quite low. The other

00:48:27.610 --> 00:48:30.889
causes that I volunteer with. Most of these things

00:48:30.889 --> 00:48:32.849
I got involved with during the pandemic lockdown

00:48:32.849 --> 00:48:34.750
period. I was still living in Singapore at the

00:48:34.750 --> 00:48:38.329
time. So thank heavens for technology. Most of

00:48:38.329 --> 00:48:41.130
this happened over Zoom and Teams calls and web

00:48:41.130 --> 00:48:43.909
conferences and video conferences. But we did

00:48:43.909 --> 00:48:47.489
get past that particular situation. And three

00:48:47.489 --> 00:48:52.690
years from then, I'm excited to see what will

00:48:52.690 --> 00:48:56.889
happen next. Very much learn to live in the moment.

00:48:58.539 --> 00:49:01.840
So you must be getting a lot of pitches from

00:49:01.840 --> 00:49:05.679
young entrepreneurs, startups, and that's your

00:49:05.679 --> 00:49:08.219
daily, it's almost like a daily routine. So it

00:49:08.219 --> 00:49:10.260
is very much my daily routine and it's my conscious

00:49:10.260 --> 00:49:13.139
daily routine. I love that. So it's not just,

00:49:13.159 --> 00:49:14.780
you know, the startup pitches, which are interesting.

00:49:14.840 --> 00:49:16.840
And I'll tell you a couple of examples of, you

00:49:16.840 --> 00:49:18.800
know, striking conversations that happen. One

00:49:18.800 --> 00:49:22.480
is I do mentor some startup founders as well

00:49:22.480 --> 00:49:24.599
as, you know. others people young professionals

00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:26.179
and people at various stages of their career

00:49:26.179 --> 00:49:28.820
as well because I as I said I've been very lucky

00:49:28.820 --> 00:49:30.440
to have great mentoring throughout my career

00:49:30.440 --> 00:49:33.139
and I think it's important to try and give back

00:49:33.139 --> 00:49:35.340
the other thing I've learned is mentoring actually

00:49:35.340 --> 00:49:38.019
you get quite a lot of stuff back because the

00:49:38.019 --> 00:49:39.800
more you work with people the better it broadens

00:49:39.800 --> 00:49:41.400
your perspective you learn a lot in the process

00:49:41.400 --> 00:49:44.320
of mentoring others as well so two stories I

00:49:44.320 --> 00:49:47.929
wanted one is you know of a A young person that

00:49:47.929 --> 00:49:51.389
I met, I had been a panelist at a sort of a small

00:49:51.389 --> 00:49:53.269
event in Bangalore about three, four weeks ago,

00:49:53.369 --> 00:49:56.469
where I'd been speaking with, you know, we were

00:49:56.469 --> 00:49:58.530
a panel of folks from the venture capital world

00:49:58.530 --> 00:50:00.710
and we were talking about startups. And one of

00:50:00.710 --> 00:50:02.230
the conversations we went through was, you know,

00:50:02.389 --> 00:50:05.210
how this whole funding winter is happening right

00:50:05.210 --> 00:50:07.190
now for, you know, startups and what's going

00:50:07.190 --> 00:50:09.349
to happen. And I sort of shared my perspective

00:50:09.349 --> 00:50:11.349
saying, you know, I thought the sky had fallen

00:50:11.349 --> 00:50:14.130
when the dotcom bust happened in the early 2000s.

00:50:14.510 --> 00:50:15.989
And then, you know, I thought the sky had fallen

00:50:15.989 --> 00:50:19.849
again when 2008, this recession happened. And

00:50:19.849 --> 00:50:21.730
yet somehow, you know, we survived and got through,

00:50:21.750 --> 00:50:24.510
we adapted. So like Charles Darwin said, you

00:50:24.510 --> 00:50:27.650
know, survival is not the strongest or the most

00:50:27.650 --> 00:50:29.210
intelligent. It's the ones who are most able

00:50:29.210 --> 00:50:32.969
to adapt to change, right? So that is the thing

00:50:32.969 --> 00:50:35.789
that applies to these situations as well. This

00:50:35.789 --> 00:50:37.730
too shall pass. We need to adapt to this new

00:50:37.730 --> 00:50:41.010
set of circumstances. And maybe some of the unnecessary

00:50:41.010 --> 00:50:44.110
hype has... it might be a blessing in disguise

00:50:44.110 --> 00:50:46.130
in some ways because it will separate the wheat

00:50:46.130 --> 00:50:48.389
from the chaff. I'm not saying it's not traumatic.

00:50:48.630 --> 00:50:51.570
Some, unfortunately, some companies and even

00:50:51.570 --> 00:50:54.190
some funders will not be able to weather this.

00:50:54.289 --> 00:50:58.989
It's challenging times. But this is, again, it's

00:50:58.989 --> 00:51:03.469
an opportunity as well. Right? So, like the old

00:51:03.469 --> 00:51:05.710
proverb goes, tough times never last, but tough

00:51:05.710 --> 00:51:07.769
people do and tough companies do as well. Tough

00:51:07.769 --> 00:51:11.130
companies are nothing but the people. Right?

00:51:11.130 --> 00:51:16.659
So, So the story that I wanted to tell is this

00:51:16.659 --> 00:51:18.960
young engineer walked up to me and he's been

00:51:18.960 --> 00:51:22.280
working in the software field for about seven

00:51:22.280 --> 00:51:26.079
years. And he's just come back to the US. Unfortunately,

00:51:26.179 --> 00:51:28.099
he lost his job. So he lost his H1B business.

00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:30.719
So he's come back to India. But he's found another

00:51:30.719 --> 00:51:32.860
job. But he's a techie with good skills. He's

00:51:32.860 --> 00:51:35.699
found another job. He said, look. The job that

00:51:35.699 --> 00:51:37.599
I really want to ask you about, and I want to

00:51:37.599 --> 00:51:39.920
ask you how I get into it, is this thing that

00:51:39.920 --> 00:51:42.960
I saw online and that one of the people that

00:51:42.960 --> 00:51:45.940
I know through an acquaintance has become. And

00:51:45.940 --> 00:51:47.940
I said, okay, what is that role? He said, it's

00:51:47.940 --> 00:51:51.320
entrepreneur in residence at the Sweezy. I said,

00:51:51.340 --> 00:51:53.820
entrepreneur in residence? Okay, tell me more

00:51:53.820 --> 00:51:57.539
about what you mean by that. And he said, no,

00:51:57.579 --> 00:51:59.880
this person that I know is working at this US

00:51:59.880 --> 00:52:02.300
VC firm and he's the entrepreneur in residence

00:52:02.300 --> 00:52:04.860
and he gets a 200 ,000 salary. Plus he gets stock

00:52:04.860 --> 00:52:07.260
in the companies that he brings to the table

00:52:07.260 --> 00:52:09.059
and mentors, et cetera, et cetera. And that's

00:52:09.059 --> 00:52:10.820
the job. That's my dream job. And that's what

00:52:10.820 --> 00:52:14.659
I want to become. So I was a little challenged

00:52:14.659 --> 00:52:18.179
not to sort of giggle a little bit at that, but

00:52:18.179 --> 00:52:20.480
I thought it would be a rule. So I decided to

00:52:20.480 --> 00:52:21.980
step back and answer that question a little bit

00:52:21.980 --> 00:52:24.949
seriously. I said, okay, first of all. what is

00:52:24.949 --> 00:52:26.849
the background of that person who became entrepreneur

00:52:26.849 --> 00:52:30.969
in residence? He said, yeah, he's my friend's

00:52:30.969 --> 00:52:33.829
older cousin. And he had started two businesses

00:52:33.829 --> 00:52:36.909
in Silicon Valley, sold them off. And then he

00:52:36.909 --> 00:52:39.929
became this entrepreneur in residence. That is

00:52:39.929 --> 00:52:42.409
the key. The entrepreneur in residence means

00:52:42.409 --> 00:52:44.130
that the starting point is you have to be an

00:52:44.130 --> 00:52:45.789
entrepreneur who's had a reasonable amount of

00:52:45.789 --> 00:52:47.730
success. And then they'll hire you to share your

00:52:47.730 --> 00:52:50.989
expertise with others. So the long way, the long

00:52:50.989 --> 00:52:54.760
way around to that job is. Over the years, you

00:52:54.760 --> 00:52:57.019
would start your own business. You would sell

00:52:57.019 --> 00:52:59.480
it off. And then people will come to you saying,

00:52:59.619 --> 00:53:01.360
how did you build your business and how did you

00:53:01.360 --> 00:53:03.199
successfully sell it off? And then you can become

00:53:03.199 --> 00:53:06.300
an entrepreneur in residence. I think he was

00:53:06.300 --> 00:53:08.079
a little disappointed that I didn't have a magical

00:53:08.079 --> 00:53:15.179
shortcut to give him. But that is so true that,

00:53:15.179 --> 00:53:19.239
you know, this and the Internet is full of stories

00:53:19.239 --> 00:53:23.539
where. In three weeks, I made $400 ,000 doing

00:53:23.539 --> 00:53:26.440
this and something else, which is like, I mean,

00:53:26.460 --> 00:53:29.440
I'm saying, why do you, there is a formula. It's

00:53:29.440 --> 00:53:33.579
hard work consistently over decades. Unfortunately,

00:53:33.579 --> 00:53:36.179
nobody thinks that is the formula. They think

00:53:36.179 --> 00:53:40.480
that there is a shortcut. Yeah, no, there was

00:53:40.480 --> 00:53:43.420
a, so there's another, anyway, there's lots of

00:53:43.420 --> 00:53:45.000
stories like this. You're exactly right, Venu.

00:53:45.019 --> 00:53:48.559
But I also, I think. I was very impressed by

00:53:48.559 --> 00:53:51.840
this startup founder who was pretty young, was

00:53:51.840 --> 00:53:55.960
only 29 years old. And had actually, this was

00:53:55.960 --> 00:53:58.500
the third startup that they were bringing to

00:53:58.500 --> 00:54:00.400
the table and were telling me about. And it's,

00:54:00.400 --> 00:54:02.599
you know, the startup is still quite young. They've

00:54:02.599 --> 00:54:04.980
not yet got a prototype ready. It's a very interesting

00:54:04.980 --> 00:54:07.679
idea. And I offered to connect them to some people.

00:54:07.719 --> 00:54:10.820
What I was impressed by was this, right? They

00:54:10.820 --> 00:54:12.940
started a business while they were still in college

00:54:12.940 --> 00:54:17.119
with some of their college mates. It failed and

00:54:17.119 --> 00:54:19.300
they had to shut it down. And they went their

00:54:19.300 --> 00:54:21.860
separate ways. Then this guy started a second

00:54:21.860 --> 00:54:24.139
startup with some work colleagues because he

00:54:24.139 --> 00:54:26.820
joined again an IT company as one does. And,

00:54:26.820 --> 00:54:31.119
you know, I was doing work there. And while moonlighting,

00:54:31.119 --> 00:54:33.800
he started another business with some office

00:54:33.800 --> 00:54:36.940
colleagues. And that actually ended up finding

00:54:36.940 --> 00:54:38.719
some traction. But he said he had a bad experience

00:54:38.719 --> 00:54:41.380
and had to part ways with his partners. So he

00:54:41.380 --> 00:54:44.699
had left that startup on somewhat sort of bad

00:54:44.699 --> 00:54:47.449
terms. But look at the passion of this guy. He's

00:54:47.449 --> 00:54:50.630
now started his third startup, right? I truly,

00:54:50.730 --> 00:54:53.070
I said, look, I really admire your perseverance

00:54:53.070 --> 00:54:54.789
and your commitment to being an entrepreneur.

00:54:54.969 --> 00:54:56.329
He said, yeah, because, you know, I know that

00:54:56.329 --> 00:54:59.110
one day my dream is to be a really successful

00:54:59.110 --> 00:55:01.230
entrepreneur and make a difference. I said, that's

00:55:01.230 --> 00:55:03.130
it. That, you know, there is no way that someone

00:55:03.130 --> 00:55:06.449
like you is not going to succeed with your commitment,

00:55:06.530 --> 00:55:08.510
with your passion and everything that you've

00:55:08.510 --> 00:55:11.369
learned from what you've done before. I'm sure

00:55:11.369 --> 00:55:13.190
you will continue to do well. And that I thought

00:55:13.190 --> 00:55:16.420
was very admirable. That's the attitude all of

00:55:16.420 --> 00:55:19.579
us have to have. And that's a wonderful note

00:55:19.579 --> 00:55:23.320
to end it on because I think, Divya, you've really

00:55:23.320 --> 00:55:26.739
touched upon that we spent a lot of time on the

00:55:26.739 --> 00:55:29.280
early part of your career. I think that's the

00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:32.800
fundamental building block. And now you're in

00:55:32.800 --> 00:55:35.320
a stage where you're giving back, you're helping

00:55:35.320 --> 00:55:37.400
a whole lot of people succeed as well, as well

00:55:37.400 --> 00:55:40.519
as ensuring that women enter and stay in the

00:55:40.519 --> 00:55:43.829
workforce for much longer. Thank you for spending

00:55:43.829 --> 00:55:46.909
this time with us. Is there anything that you'd

00:55:46.909 --> 00:55:51.269
like to close with? Well, I'd just like to say

00:55:51.269 --> 00:55:55.510
something. I'll share something that was shared

00:55:55.510 --> 00:55:59.610
with me when I was starting out my career. There

00:55:59.610 --> 00:56:03.289
is no single path to success, right? You as an

00:56:03.289 --> 00:56:05.389
individual will not have the same path to success

00:56:05.389 --> 00:56:08.750
as your sibling or your best friend or your neighbor.

00:56:09.920 --> 00:56:11.340
You as an individual have your own strengths,

00:56:11.519 --> 00:56:13.179
your own weaknesses, your own interests, your

00:56:13.179 --> 00:56:16.380
own enthusiasm, your own opportunities. The key

00:56:16.380 --> 00:56:20.519
thing is when you find an opportunity and you

00:56:20.519 --> 00:56:22.559
find a new opportunity to do something, I would

00:56:22.559 --> 00:56:26.119
say if you are 100 % confident that you can do

00:56:26.119 --> 00:56:27.880
it, there's something wrong with that opportunity.

00:56:28.199 --> 00:56:30.059
You should always jump into opportunities where

00:56:30.059 --> 00:56:33.059
you are, you say maybe 30 % of this I can do,

00:56:33.179 --> 00:56:36.539
70 % of this I'll have to go and discover. I'll

00:56:36.539 --> 00:56:38.739
learn on the job. That's the opportunity you

00:56:38.739 --> 00:56:41.010
should go for. Because if you're just going to

00:56:41.010 --> 00:56:42.809
do the thing that you're 100 % sure you've done

00:56:42.809 --> 00:56:44.429
before and you're doing again, you're not learning,

00:56:44.489 --> 00:56:45.550
you're not growing, you're not doing anything

00:56:45.550 --> 00:56:48.210
new. That's not opportunity. So go after the

00:56:48.210 --> 00:56:50.349
opportunity that scares you a little bit. That's

00:56:50.349 --> 00:56:55.250
my, that's the advice I'd like. Yeah. No, it's

00:56:55.250 --> 00:56:58.610
wonderful words and they ring so true because

00:56:58.610 --> 00:57:02.289
they come from a lived experience, which I think

00:57:02.289 --> 00:57:05.070
is one of the things that, you know, people,

00:57:05.110 --> 00:57:07.409
there's no other way. You simply have to go through

00:57:07.409 --> 00:57:11.510
the... University of experiences, I call it because...

00:57:11.510 --> 00:57:13.469
Or you can learn from the university of other

00:57:13.469 --> 00:57:17.070
people's experiences, which is also good. Yeah.

00:57:18.750 --> 00:57:22.309
Yeah, so that's it. So thank you, Divya, for

00:57:22.309 --> 00:57:25.130
taking out the time and sharing so much of your

00:57:25.130 --> 00:57:30.369
learnings, the setbacks, the phases that you

00:57:30.369 --> 00:57:33.949
passed through and how you worked on them. Because

00:57:33.949 --> 00:57:36.670
I'm sure that anyone who listens to this... We'll

00:57:36.670 --> 00:57:39.769
see exactly. Like you said, they won't take the

00:57:39.769 --> 00:57:41.730
same lessons. They won't follow the same paths.

00:57:42.130 --> 00:57:44.409
But they'll at least have the material to say,

00:57:44.469 --> 00:57:47.510
this is how I built my own. Thank you for being

00:57:47.510 --> 00:57:51.750
on the... My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

00:57:52.030 --> 00:57:54.190
Bye, everyone. Have a great week. Thank you.

00:57:57.210 --> 00:58:01.329
That was Divya Sampath. And as you listened,

00:58:01.670 --> 00:58:06.349
it's been a life lived with several... Twists

00:58:06.349 --> 00:58:10.730
and turns, zigzags as she calls it. So next time,

00:58:10.769 --> 00:58:16.130
come back for another session of My First Job,

00:58:16.230 --> 00:58:17.389
the podcast.