It was a very like basic interest for me that
I'm really interested in spending time in the
outdoors. I enjoy going on hikes. I enjoy being
a student. So it was just, you know, it was my
own curiosities, I think, that sort of stirred
me. I decided to study economics because I did
commerce in 11th and 12th in India. I realized
that I didn't want to do the sciences, the pure
sciences very early on. So I spent most of my
life thinking that I would do medicine. A majority
of my family are doctors. So there's always,
you know, medicine chatter in the house. And
I was never interested in much else. And biology
fascinated me. You know, cut to 11th, 12th grade,
which I did science in 11th and 12th in India,
somehow figured that I wanted to break free.
And I didn't want to do what I had structurally
planned to do for the last decade. It's amazing
as to the number of careers that people can have.
But all of those careers were wonderful moments
of understanding, of defeat, of victory. And
it was a look back. So for the 25th episode,
Deepa Ravi, Jayachandran and I decided that we're
going to flip the equation. Instead of looking
at... what a career has been, we said we'd look
at young people who are poised on the threshold
of an exciting career. We have three young, enthusiastic,
and extremely accomplished, even at this young
age, guests on the show. Deepika Ganesh, you
have decided that you're going to look at education
for sustainable development. Aryaman Harish.
And Aryaman is into data analytics and visualization.
And finally, Aditi is looking at a future in
immunology. And she has an unusual combination
in her education. She did economics by what is
the molecular sciences, right? Yes. Yeah. This
is one of the things that I find is really interesting
about what young people do. They are not confined
by one single object. They're combining things
because that's ultimately how the world is going
to be. It's not going to be about one particular
subject. Deepika, why don't you tell us how this
interest began? Most of my interests have been
mostly knowing what I did not want to do more
than what I did want to do. I feel like schooling
is so prescriptive for us, you know, and that
we're given a certain set of choices. So I've
mostly been, you know, like, I don't really want
to do this. I don't really want to do that. So
it was a very like basic. interest for me that
I'm really interested in spending time in the
outdoors. I enjoy going on hikes. I enjoy being
a student. So it was just, you know, it was my
own curiosities, I think, that sort of stirred
me. And yeah, a telling moment that you also
had mentioned in my bio for me was, I had done
my master's thesis at this tiny village called
Mangala Jodi in Orissa. And it was a very interesting
setup there. Like we had, it was a village which
ran on bird watching and it used to be a place
that was really infamous as a poaching village
and there was actually an IS officer who grew
up there who came back worked with his community
and you know got them to change their livelihood
so I think in that like for me stood out the
power of like education who is giving you the
education and how it operates in spaces outside
of school and and you know college So, Aariman,
how did you get into data or analytics? What
was the guiding force? There was no guiding force,
honestly. I decided to study economics because
I did commerce in 11th and 12th in India. I realized
that I didn't want to do the pure sciences very
early on. When I thought about my future, I didn't
see a clear path. So I thought the safe option
would be to get a STEM degree. For someone who
has studied commerce in 11th and 12th, economics
is like the only choice left, which is still
a STEM subject, but considered a STEM subject,
but it's not pure STEM. So I decided, OK, I've
eliminated the pure sciences. Let's jump on this
bandwagon. Didn't think too much, just went ahead.
And then when I did, when I started my economics
degree, I realized, oh, this is. This is too
theoretical. I can't apply this in any way. The
tools that it's equipping me with are useful.
But how do I take this, make a career for myself?
And I said, okay, you know what now? I saw some
core skills in the degree that could be translated
into data analytics. So I took what I was learning
in the classroom and I tried to gain some skills
in data analytics and that paved the way for
some internships. Honestly, it wasn't a planned
thing. It was very one thing after the other.
Like Deepika said, eliminate a bunch of things
to come to something and then you keep going
one step from the other. One step from the other.
One at all. Okay. So, Aditi, any, you know, sudden
moments of revelations or was it, like they said,
a progress towards a kind of career that you
want to do? Yeah, there seems to be common thread
here in that you figure out what you don't like
and that steers you towards something you're
good at you do like so it was kind of similar
for me so I spent most of my life thinking that
I would do medicine a majority of my family are
doctors so there's always you know medicine chatter
in the house and I was never interested in much
else and biology fascinated me you know cut to
11th 12th grade which I did science in 11th and
12th in India somehow figured that I wanted to
break free and I didn't want to do what I had
structurally planned to do for the last decade.
And kind of in reaction to that structure, I
said, I want everything but structure. So I did
a liberal arts and sciences degree and I just
chose subjects that I thought, we'll take one
class, see how it goes. If it interests me and
it sticks, fantastic. So molecular cell biology
was something that I'd always been interested
in and I'd studied it a bit in high school. And
economics, funnily enough, I read a book called
Freakonomics by Levitt and Dubner. And, you know,
I thought the class came up, there was a free
spot. So I said, okay, great, let's join. And
that kind of followed through for the next three
years and I majored in it. Now, have I found
a way to conflate the two subjects? We can explore
that a little bit. But yeah, that's kind of how
things just happened. Yeah. Okay. Wonderful.
So what I'm getting here is that, again, Deepika,
coming back to you, did your parents have a lot
to say about the kind of career or they let it,
you know, they left it to you to decide what
you wanted to do? I think, yeah, I've been lucky
in that I'm pretty sure at many points they didn't
really understand what I was doing. I didn't
really understand what I was doing, but then,
you know, they trusted me. And yeah, I mean,
I don't know what else to say. I'm sure they
still, because sometimes they still ask me, like
somebody's asking us what you're doing. Can you
just quickly tell us? And I'll be like, yeah,
sure. And I'll send them across a quick text.
I'm interested in doing, what is education for
sustainable development? Why is it, why is it
not education alone? Why do the two have to be
linked? They don't have to be. But I think in,
I mean, at least now. for everyone who's studying
the climate crisis is essential. And it's essential
to all fields, irrespective of whether, you know,
you're working with finance or IT. Like I was
just reading yesterday about how, you know, the
cost of, I mean, the energy use of Bitcoin mining
is more than like all the Amazon offices across
the world put together. You know, when we're
faced with these kind of challenges, I think
that's why I find this space critical. And then
the connection also makes sense. I saw a little
news item about Bitcoin. Can you imagine what
consumes more than Bitcoin mining? It's very
obvious. Once you know what the answer is, it's
YouTube. YouTube's data centers actually use
up and very carefully the very next day after
that. graph was published on bbc the top half
of the graph which showed what is being the highest
this thing was actually taken off and it started
with bitcoin so you get get to hear a lot about
what bitcoin is all about in this segment okay
i don't mean to come back to you one of the things
that you said was that you did this project to
figure out tell producers what netflix you know
how did People like certain movies on Netflix
or was that part of a team that you worked with?
How did you arrive at gathering data and what
is your source data for coming, working on a
project like that? So I took this course in university.
It was called data visualization for, and it
was a course that the information system school
offered. And so for that course, we had to build
an interactive dashboard. We had to build this
in Tableau, which is a very. widely used tool
for visualization in the industry we thought
to ourselves okay where do we get the data to
do this because we want to create multiple types
of visualizations communicate different types
of insights across different KPIs and so we we
found data on Kaggle which is Kaggle is a very
commonly used data analytics and data science
learning platform And we found this public data
set on Kaggle where they'd scraped data from
Netflix of all the different movies across different
years. And then we linked that data to financial
data we had about Netflix's revenue in different
markets. And then once we were able to link it
and find a join, we created different visualizations
and made it sort of interactive. So you could
play around with the years, with the genres to
sort of see. how certain things are looking in
certain markets. So it was a fun thing for us.
It was more of a project that we sort of, we
finished and then we sent a mail to Netflix saying,
hey, we did this. We didn't work with Netflix
really, but it was just really to, it was something
we were interested in because a lot of indie
producers want to pitch to Netflix, but they
don't necessarily have information. So that's
what we were doing. So Aditi, in your course,
Was it a 50 -50 kind of split between economics
and molecular cell biology? Or was it, what was
the mix like? And how did you manage the credits
for both of them? So it wasn't a 50 -50 split
by any means. I actually started off with biology
and physics. Physics kind of led me to economics
at some point. And there's a lot of similarities
between physics and economics, which is why I
think I found the transition pretty easy. With
the degree I got, it's a little bit of a lot.
I did a bit of linguistics. I had a random gastronomy
course that I did. I think overall, the credits
were mainly in biology and economics, but there
was a lot interspersed between languages as well.
I think the idea is... with a degree like this
is to give you a fairly broad foundation as opposed
to a very deep understanding of a particular
subject which is a common joke with people who've
done the liberal arts and sciences which is I
can simultaneously do everything but nothing
you know so which is why I think I took a year
off after university to still explore after that.
Okay. Sorry, I think I lost you for a little.
But that connection you made, economics and physics,
similarities, can you just expand a bit on that?
Sure, yeah. I believe there's some amount of
economics that was derived from physics. For
example, the concept of elasticity in physics
and economics is very similar, applied to very
different things. So there are those few key
parallels. And I did microeconomics specifically,
so it's very math -based, which is similar to
physics. It's applied math and so is economics.
I'm sure Aryuman can touch upon that as well.
The base, essentially, when you're learning micro
and macro is you need to know multivariate calculus.
I guess maths can sort of help you find the common
intersection. And there's also a lot of linear
regression. And if you're going on the applied
side, there's a lot of linear and multiple variable
regression stats models that you use that could
apply to other domains as well. So the methods
could be similar, but the domains may be different
sort of where we're applying things. Yeah. Okay.
So Deepika, I think one of the things you mentioned
is that you worked on this big, massively open
online MOOC. Yeah. What was that about? What
exactly did you do there? That was, I think that's
what I think cemented my interest in research
or that's what kind of moved me here is I was
working at the Indian Institute of Management
in Bangalore in their online learning department.
So I used to design these massive open online
courses, MOOCs, as they are known for sustainable
development. So it was both inward and outward
facing. So we would have MOOCs that anyone in
the world could sign up for. And we also did
like blended learning programs that other faculty
wanted to take up or that students wanted to
take up at the institute. And yeah, one interesting
project that I did was we designed this MOOC
to sort of aim to decentralize business curriculum
or like include perspectives from different states
and different countries. Like with, I mean, with
most, I don't know, we're all familiar with how
like in most of our, I guess, things that...
we've studied they're not really grounded and
rooted in our own surroundings so we tried to
bring that into business curriculum by having
a program where faculty could develop cases from
their own states or their own localities like
identify a challenge and write about it and include
it in the you know in the curriculum that we
were publishing so that was an interesting project
that happened in 2000 and sorry and was that
live Were these the same? I mean, all of these
courses, the MOOCs are, what is the method of
delivery? So the, so the MOOCs is, yes, the MOOCs
are all online. They, we used to use Open edX.
I'm not, I mean, I don't work there anymore.
So, and I know that edX was bought by another
company called 2U. So I'm not too sure where
they're hosted now, but yeah, you would find
them online. The course that I worked on was
called Strategy and the Sustainable Enterprise,
was called Strategy and the Sustainable Enterprise.
Yeah, anyone can sign up for it. And it's free
unless you want a certificate from the course.
I think those are some of the challenges, right?
In terms of today, you're free to do a whole
lot of courses. But in terms of does it help
to get a job? Because some of the clients we
work with, the people who want to come and join
them are only asking one question. Is this going
to lead me to a job? I think a few of you have
this. I'm not saying it's not just an observation.
It's also an awareness and a realization. You
need to spend the early part of your life building
a foundation of at least some of the things that
you know you want to be involved in for the next
10 or 15 years. Some people don't have that flexibility.
It's almost as if they have to try and figure
out. So I'm saying if your choices were limited,
I'm going to make it a bit of a difficult thing
out here. I'm going to ask each of you in turn,
if you were forced into certain situations where
you didn't have... The ability to do what you
wanted. Have you ever considered that? Deepika?
Yeah, I mean, I feel like that happens to me
all the time. So, I mean, even very recently,
when I just started, like my first project as
a PhD student, I'm working with an engineering
department and I have to read a case on ammonia
production. I haven't done engineering, you know,
so I feel like what you said. It's a disadvantage.
It's also an advantage, I think, is our access
to information. I think if we have a willingness
to learn, we can probably learn about everything.
And I think also viewing like the spaces that
we learn in as spaces of networking, at least
the physical spaces and like knowledge we can
access anywhere. But, you know, the university
that we attend or like people that we meet as
people who can teach us, because I do have someone
who's teaching me now about. you know, the decarbonizing
of ammonia production. And it's going to take
me a while to figure out the vocabulary. But
yeah, hopefully I get that. Harul, what do you
think? I think all of us are a fairly privileged
bunch of people here who have had the choice
to, you know, choose things that we like studying
or at least have some remote interest in. But
very often, many people don't have the choice
to choose what they study. or where they work.
Sometimes it's just about making ends meet, trying
to get from one step to the other. But I found
that even from people who are in those situations,
people who maybe their parents have forced them
to study engineering because that's the norm
in India. That's usually the, yeah. That's the
norm, yeah. See, and... An urge and a willingness
to not let the academic constraints that society
has subjected upon them to stray them away from
their core interests. I think academics is no
longer a boundary. And what you study for four
years in your bachelor's degree or your two years
in your master's is not a determinant of what
you want to do in the future. It's about what
you want to do. And I feel this especially for
applied domains. where the skills can be acquired
with time and effort or work experience, that
we don't need to be constrained by what we study.
A society will tell us that we should be constrained
by that. But if we have an interest and a strong
passion, we should not let that stop us. And
I'm a strong proponent of that because I feel
like the job market is... is evolving rapidly.
Jobs that are there today will not be there two,
three years from now. The tools we are using
today are not going to be there two, three years
from now. The things that they taught us in school
might become irrelevant. But what we need to
take away is some core skills and try and keep
them close to us, I think. Yeah. I don't know
if that makes sense. It does. It does. Because,
like you said, change is something that's happening
at a much more rapid rate. So the solutions that
applied, let's say, even a decade ago may not
be relevant today. Aditi, what has your experience
been? Or, you know, in terms of, okay, if you
thought you were constrained, what would your
options have been? So, yeah, reflecting what
Aryuman said, I think I've also always been aware
of the privileges I've been given, the privilege
of choosing, the privilege of... picking what
I would like to do and then discarding what I
didn't. If I was backed into a corner, let's
say grade 12, I think I would have done medicine.
But to give you a little anecdote, same vein.
So I worked in HR for a few months last year
and I was a recruiter. So I ended up talking
to a lot of people, interacting with a lot of
people from different backgrounds. different
socioeconomic backgrounds. And a sort of common
thread that I found with the interviews I did
was that as long as you were willing to learn
outside of the box a little bit compared to,
let's say, what you've gotten your degree in,
anything is possible. So I saw people who'd come
with engineering degrees who were doing HR alongside
me. Or, you know, very rarely the opposite. You
need a certain skill set for an engineering job.
But it really showed me that you don't have to
be constrained by what you were forced to do
in your earlier years. And I think, so I'm going
to my master's now in a few months. And I think
that's the beauty of a master's. Because when
I got out of my bachelor's, you know, the world
was my oyster. I didn't know what I was going
to do. But then a master's kind of helps you.
refine that do something entirely different you
know so in terms of of being constrained i think
that's more a mindset than than anything else
yeah fair enough i think that's one of the great
things that i'm seeing is that you guys are so
clear about i don't think my generation which
is at least three generations removed was had
anything close to the clarity that you have today.
And at times I wonder if that is a process of
conditioning. You've got so used to having so
much of information right from the beginning
that your mind almost acts like a filtration
mechanism and then says, this no, this no, this
no. In fact, I had written recently, I think
that even the scrolling seems to be like a filter
because the mind is telling you, move. This is
not important to you. As opposed to it being
a reflex. Okay. But Deepika, just to come back.
Do you see this whole thing about, do you think
there's too much being made about planning your
career and what you should be doing? As opposed
to saying, do what you think you'll be good at
and let it evolve from there. I mean, I don't
know. I think I'm just going to rely on my own
experience. And actually for a while. I thought
I should tell you that I did work with career
counseling. I mean, I used to design programs
on gender and sustainability, but I worked with
an organization that used to do career counseling
in schools. And I'm just going to look back at
my experience there. And I think so much of it
is an autonomous decision that we need to be
empowered to make. And I feel like that's really
missing in how our schools operate, because we
always have people telling us what to do. And
I'm not saying that. you know, in a way to vilify,
you know, families or schools because they all
have our best interest in heart. But very rarely
do we have the capacity to come up with an original
thought or to even reflect and see what our interests
are. And I feel like the process of reflection
should be embedded in this process, like from
an early age, if we're able to sit with ourselves
and understand what we like to do. I think either
way, it will make it... Even if it's like, ah,
you figure it out as you go, or I want to become
an economist, so this is how I get there. I feel
like reflecting and having the tools to be able
to plan that out would make it easier. Okay,
great. So we have a couple of comments that have
come up. It's not so much a question, so I'll
just show it to you. Okay, so obviously that
resonated. So Ravi says that the sustainability
part is simple, but they have become so complex.
You were just talking of decarbonization and
all the credits and all the jargon. That seems
to evolve faster than the field itself, you know,
which come out there. And academics and practically
working, quite a big gap, I guess. But, okay,
Aariman, you know, the same question that I asked.
Deepika, how do you see this playing out? Let's
say, I'm not even asking for a five -year horizon.
I'm saying maybe over the next couple of years,
where do you see the value in data visualization
from a commercial viewpoint? I'm just asking,
is that something that you would look at or you'd
say, let me figure out as I go along? Data visualization
is something that is useful in all areas of...
you know, business. Speaking from a corporate
sort of perspective, you know, you can use it
in finance, you use it in marketing, you use
it in HR, you use it everywhere, right? There
are KPIs that managers need to track and they
need to sort of report and sort of, if their
visualizations are too complex and they're hard
to read and sort of managers sort of has only
10 minutes to go through things. then you've
lost the plot, right? So it's not just about
knowing how to, knowing about different types
of graphs or knowing about different types of
data. It's not just about that, but it's a form
of communication because words are not good enough.
Even if you have gone through so much information,
you know, you've read through tables of data,
gone through rows of Excel, right? When you're
communicating to a stakeholder and you're using
a visual medium, you need some graphs, right?
And it's like a principal communication mechanism.
So you need to figure out the hues, color, size,
angle, you know, and ensure that you're communicating
what is appropriate. So actually a lot of applied
psychology comes into this. Because we need to
understand the attention span of individuals.
What insight they will capture first. Very often,
earlier in Excel, you could make these 3D graphs.
I don't know if you have ever noticed, but you
could make these 3D graphs. They are actually
the worst type of graph to make. Because you're
communicating too much at once. No one can figure
out what is going on in three dimensions, you
know. So, things like this, psychology tells
us. you know, that you're overdoing it, boss.
Press the pause button, right? So I think we
see this as something fundamental. Maybe the
platform will change. Maybe instead of Tableau,
you're using PowerDI. Maybe AI will come in and
make the visualizations for you, taking the data.
Maybe. But still, you need to know why, how,
when to make the appropriate choice. So that's
fundamental. Yeah. Great. I think that's valid.
Aditi, what about you? What do you think? What
do I think about where the field I'm in? Yeah,
yeah. The field you're in and how it's going
to pan out in future and are you looking far
ahead or are you saying next couple of years,
I'll figure out things as I go along because
I will get to know more. One of the good things
I think you've done is you earlier mentioned
that you did HR for a while before you got into
your current NQ, which again, give you a set
of experiences that may not have been exactly
like Deepika said when she went and talked to
as a career counselor you get a set of experience
so what's your take right now so I look at everything
in life I was given some very good advice only
a few months ago I look at everything in life
career wise at least as a project so the HR stint
was a project before that project and it gives
me an end not to look forward to but sort of
goals to achieve within a certain period of time
and very often I've heard friends of mine complaining
oh I don't know how people do this I'm bored
how do people stay at one job for you know 20
-30 years brings in a question loyalty and things
like that but I think the idea of looking at
something as a project really gives you a sense
of perspective. So to answer your question, where
do I see myself in this field? I don't know.
I'm doing a master's in a similar field, immunology,
and potentially I will come back to this. So
the company, maybe I can explain what my company
does. We're a startup in Bangalore, and it's
based around the idea of creating a cancer immunotherapy,
cell -based immunotherapy. The cell in question
would be the NK cell, natural killer cell, NQ.
So where I see this field going, there's extremely
exciting science going on. The incubator that
I'm at in Bangalore, CCAM, Center for Molecular
Platforms, there's so much going on and I want
to take part in every single project. Every single
startup is trying to achieve such different things
and such necessary things. So there's, I think,
a lot in this field. And I think a lot is going
to be available specifically for Indian customers,
for Indian patients. Drugs that are not typically
or therapies that aren't typically accessible
in terms of finances to the Indian consumer base.
People are working on that daily. My company
is working on that. So where I fit into this,
I don't know. I can tell you for the next six
months, the next year, we'll have to see. We'll
have to see. Okay. Great. But, you know, one
of the things, just looking at two different...
On one side, we see that the world is moving
much faster towards climate. You can call it
an apocalypse because of the way BDR shows it.
And on the other, we seem to be developing these
technologies that... We could never have dreamt
of in terms of curing people, in terms of health.
Do you think at some point this whole thing is,
it's a question of a race as to who will win?
Because if you don't have a planet, it doesn't
matter. At the same time, if you have the planet,
how is it that you're going to improve life?
Because, you know, at some point, I think it's
going to be a... What's your take? Deepika? There's
so many layers to this, uncle. I mean, this is
the thing that both Aditi and Aryaman mentioned
is, who has the privilege to access this technology
or life -saving or not? We know that Elon Musk
is going to move to Mars in case all of this
does happen. So, I mean, I have no answer to
your question, but I don't know. I think it's
nice to... I was actually seeing the connection
when Aditi was talking about, the cancer. And
Aryaman was talking about the visualization.
I actually attended a conference where someone
has developed this dashboard in which you can
regulate the dosage of medicine depending on
a person's race and gender and age. And these
are advancements. And this was at an education
conference, which was under the theme of compassion.
So he developed this dashboard to educate nurses,
the person. So I think it's just so nice to see
the kind of... humanitarian way in which anything
could work. So, you know, maybe the planet is
good after all, I guess. I don't know. Arun,
what's your take? These two things on one side.
It's a very existential theme. And when we enter
these existential themes, I'm sort of, I don't
know what to say, but I will say this. I think
that we need to Look at horizons differently,
you know. I think that, you know, when our countries
gained independence, there would be these five
-year plans in sort of this Nehru -Venera. They
would have these five -year plans for growth
and they would sort of set about allocating resources
to different industries, you know, based on their
idea of how much this industry should grow. So
they've planned it all out and they move with
the assumption that they know what's coming.
But, you know, history has proven that we don't
know what's coming. Yeah, we don't know what's
coming at all. COVID -19 is proof that we really
don't know what's coming. So I think you try
to do your best, you know, you try to move in
a direction which you want to move, but you shouldn't
expect. things to work out. I think this is something
that's very important in our careers, in our
lives in general. I think we can't expect things
to work out. We can't expect our choices and
our risk to sort of need to gain. Things may
work out sometimes, they might not work out the
others. We need to have some backup options,
some backup plans, a third route, a fourth route.
Because uncertainties are abundant and they're
going to come our way. They're going to continue
to come our way. And if today is uncertain, tomorrow
is going to be 10 times more uncertain. So I
think the attitude should be, don't expect things
to work out. If they work out, great. If not,
our effort is itself enough. And I think that
that mindset is important. Yeah, that's being
very practical. And Aditi, I think you just mentioned,
so two years when you went away to study, And
then you came back. When you went to study, these
projects didn't exist in India. At least I don't
think it existed as far as you knew, but the
work was going on. But it's only now that you've
seen it happen. So at some point earlier, the
thing used to be that, you know, it'll only be
in the West that something will happen. But today
you're beginning to see that even in India, that
process has started, even if it's not moved into
high gear. Because, you know, electronic vehicles,
Ather, the kind of two wheelers that we have,
they put in eight years of work on the battery.
Because they said, OK, if it's going to go into
something like this, then I want to ensure that
it meets all Indian conditions. So you could
have 45 degrees in a certain place and you can't
have the battery catch fire, which is your basic
premise. OK, so do you solve for whatever is
directly in front of you? You know, sometimes
these plans are like, I remember saying five
years, leave alone five years, even the next
couple of years. That's a very interesting question.
In a nutshell, I used to be someone who planned
many, many years ahead, had a five -year plan,
10 -year plan, so on and so forth. But I don't
think I am that person anymore only because I've
learned that that's not a sustainable way to
live. To kind of touch upon what Deepika Nariman
said as well, I really loved the positivity and
the realism they brought in to this conversation
because I think it's important to be, as much
as you have to be realistic, it is important
to be positive because I was reading an article
the other day where it said that reading an article
heading with bad news is something people click
on more regarding the environment that is, click
on more as opposed to good news. So I think the
idea of, you know, this apocalyptic mentality,
the world's on fire, sometimes literally, that's
okay to pass through and kind of digest. And
then you do your little things to help the planet
or big things like Deepika's doing with education.
And that's what I try to do, you know, tackle
small projects two weeks from now, three weeks
from now. in terms of year -long plans that I've
set that aside. I've put that to bed. Yeah. Great.
Okay. So here's something that I think is meant
for all of you. So Deepika, why don't you go
with this? Tell me. This is not my first job.
Should I reflect on my first? Okay. When your
first job, okay, the question is that it's going
back to the time you had your first job. Okay.
The thing is, there's always an expectation and
it's more about what was the mentality when you
had your first job versus now you have advanced
a few years into it. So what has changed? Things
have changed so much. And I think also this is
something important that I thought that Aryaman
brought up. Now I understand and recognize the
value of starting building a skill earlier, like
irrespective of. which field you're in. And I
think, yeah, when I was in my first job, I didn't
really have much of a clue, you know, what I
was doing. I was fresh out of my three -year
degree from Mount Carmel College. I think I was
one of two people who sat for campus placements
because everyone else did not even, I don't know,
want to do that. And then, yeah, my first job
was very accidentally at KPMG in knowledge management.
Yeah, like, I think I just intentionally went
for that. And that's where, like, I started writing
cases on sustainable development. And I'm able
to recognize that looking back now. But at the
time, I think I was just intentional about, okay,
I'm writing cases. Okay, let me, you know, build
my writing skills. Let me build my presentation
skills. And I'm glad things have added up. And
I'm doing much more interesting things now. But,
yeah. Yeah. No, that's great. I think that's
really the... You know, the way you kind of,
because at each stage, when you cross a certain
time, you spend a couple of years and then you
get, it's almost like you're adjusting your rear
view mirror. Saying, okay, this is the road in
front, but I also need to see what I've gone
past to see what I'll need to do in future. And
I think it's quite humbling also to see it that
way. Sorry, go on. No, no, no. Absolutely. I
think that's valid. And please feel free to cut
it because I think the whole point is if you
think that that point is importantly stated,
because it's important to get that into the conversation.
Yes, Sariman. My first significant job was I
worked for four months in a health tech company
in Singapore. And I was working in growth and
partnerships. And this company was, it was a
startup. They worked in developing countries
to get access to medicines, etc. in rural areas.
But I was working in Singapore in their HQ. My
mindset going into this job was, okay, this is
an internship. It was a very Indian mindset I
had of, my boss will give me some tasks. I will
complete those tasks at the end of the day, submit
it to the boss and go home. This was sort of
like, OK, I'll come into work, do my tasks and
leave. Come and do the work, leave. You know,
this was sort of the mindset I had. It's an internship.
I was in my second year at the end of my first
year in university. So I really didn't expect
it to be crazy or tough. But when I walk into
the startup and I was interacting directly with
the CEO and the CFO and there was work that was.
Crazy because they were preparing for their next
funding round. I was expected to take ownership
of tasks that I had never thought in the wildest
of dreams that I'd have to take ownership for.
In fact, stakeholders directly talk to partners
in other countries, do things that I had never
expected I should do, where I feel I am working
for the organization and I am invested in the
organization's growth. Because a shift in the
mindset leads to a difference in your output.
It's behind at the back of your head, but it
makes a difference. Aditi, what was your experience
like? Your very first job? Very similar to Ariman's.
So my first job would have been HR. It's a cancer
hospital called Psycare Cancer Hospitals. I've
had a few internships during university. I approached
everything as I am doing this for someone else.
The only person benefiting is me. And suddenly
I was with a group of people, a team of people.
And I had the hospital to keep in mind, you know,
the ethos of the hospital, the hospital's image
to the patients, to admin, to staff, so on and
so forth. That was definitely a shift, including,
I mean, this is very superficial, but in a lot
of these internships, I made friends. At this
HR job, I had colleagues. So drawing that line
for me was a very conscious one. And it took
me some time to realize that. But specifically,
and I think this is potentially just a quirk
of HR and recruitment, but I learned a lot of
empathy. A lot of empathy, but also a little
bit more backbone. Funnily enough, the first
day I was there, the second day I was there,
candidates and I came home and I wept because
you know I had never done something like this
before to reject someone to say no to someone
was something I had never done before in a professional
capacity and these are people's livelihoods and
I had to realize that it wasn't me doing the
rejection it was a hospital so definitely a lot
of lessons learned that first job yeah no I can
imagine how If you have to move from getting
yourself into a job to telling others that they
didn't have one. I've had this entire conversation
with a career counselor in one of the earlier
episodes where Usha said it was largely between
management issues of people not getting along
or people thinking that they had a certain skill
and the company then wanted to let go of them
and she would be brought in exactly at that point
where... How do you manage this in the shortest
time possible? It's not easy. And especially
when the person thinks that they've either kept
the job or they think that they're going to be
rewarded, which is maybe they grow up very fast
after that because I think once they get into
that rejection mode, they're not going to be
taking anything for granted later on. So, okay,
we've gone over a fair amount of stuff. Though
I think we meandered because the whole idea was
not to say that this is my career, but this is
to say this is a career. And these are the things
that perspectives that I bring in based on what
I've done, what I've learned and the same. So
going forward, if you had to advise your parents
on how they should be looking at, I mean, you
obviously you started this with the premise saying
that you have understanding parents, you have
people who. allowed you to do what they wanted.
But I'm sure when you were in HR or when you
were in counseling, you would have come across
people who told you that, no, my parents. So
if you had to tell parents, what is it that they
should be letting their children do? Where would
you begin? This is such an interesting and also
such a challenging question because like you
said, I think even when we were growing up is
very different to how students are in school
now and the kind of information that they access
a lot of it could be nonsense you know so i think
i my appeal would be to the to the ecosystem
because it's very difficult for just parents
to take you on this i would hope that schools
would step up and also like everyone could have
professional career counseling in that not you
know not that oh you should build these skills
or you should do that but to serve as guides
And to serve as informed guides. So, yes, I hope
that parents would serve as informed guides or
at least get their, you know, children access
to people who can help them get the tools to
make decisions. Because, I mean, 16, 17, we're
making crucial decisions at that age. And, you
know, like, I feel like I can't make crucial
decisions now. So, yeah. No, and believe me,
it doesn't get easier. Okay. No, if that's any
consolation. So I'm saying one of these things
are because sometimes you say there's always
this I wish I had. But I'm saying those are almost
at a certain point you learn not to look at that
aspect of the whole thing because you have a
certain thing that you're doing here and now.
Okay. Aariman, what do you think? What do you
think? Taste this Vishnu very often. I face this
issue very often where I try to, I'm trying to
convince my parents that, you know, the choices
I'm making are good choices. Very often they
question the choices I make. And so, you know,
it comes from a place of concern. But I think
parents have certain preconceived notions, you
know, based on how their careers panned out,
you know. And it's not wrong. advice is valid
in the zone and time and place in which you know
they experience things but today choices are
much more number one it's you don't have to be
a CA a doctor you know it's it's no longer like
that I think there are other paths other jobs
that are remunerative may not and may not be
the type of career trajectory that you imagine
there is this idea of a career trajectory in
Indian parents' minds which is exponential you
know that enough people will keep going from
one thing to the other but in reality I don't
think it works like that you spend some time
exploring some things figuring out where you're
headed before you take a leap so I think when
negotiating with your parents You know, and you
have to take the front seat. You have to tell
them, listen, it's my life. You know, at the
end of the day, I'm the person driving the car.
I'm the person taking this forward. Tomorrow
you may not be here. What then? You know, this
is very important. You need to say, I need to
be 100 % invested in the choices I make. You
know, and... If that is the situation I'm in,
even if it doesn't work out, I'm willing to accept
the consequences. But because it's a risk I decided
to take. So I think while dealing with parents,
you have to take a mindset of negotiation. You
have to say, give me one year, give me two years.
Let me figure this out. You know, let me try
this option out. If it doesn't work out, I will
come back to the beaten path. I can come back
to the beaten path. But give me a chance to,
give me an opportunity to explore something different.
Have faith, have trust in me. I think this is
important. No, I think it's very sensible. I
think it's one of those things where, I think
one of the things that really came through in
what you were saying is how parents are getting
into a protective mode. It's not just advisory.
It's because their personal experience has been
a certain way. They feel that I don't want you
to endure what I endured. which at times is almost
like the same because you have to endure certain
things. You can only, there is one university,
which I believe the university of experience,
which you can't decide when you want to enroll
and when you want to graduate. It's one of those
things that happens. Aditi, what's your take?
What would you tell? So I'm at a... point in
my life where a lot of my my older cousins older
friends are having kids now so they're a bunch
of babies in the family and so this is the question
I've been you know pondering for the last how
many ever years and I would say two things mainly
one notice what your children are curious about
right because that can come at age four that
can come at age 24 but I think Figuring out what
your child is fascinated by, really dipping into
that curiosity and then allowing them to explore
that in whatever means necessary, you know, buying
them a book, an internship, a little, I don't
know, whatever have you. So I think that would
be a fantastic thing that I would hope my cousins
do for their kids. And second would be to, when
they're older, maybe to instill this, this. differentiation
between what can be a career and what is a hobby.
Because both are things that affect your adult
life a lot. I've had to make that own distinction.
I still continue to make it for myself. I think
I will continue to. But I have a lot of experience
in following things that are hobbies, realizing
that, oh, wait, I kind of hate this now, pulling
back and then figuring something else out. And
I think that's an important distinction to have.
So to allow someone, to allow your child to explore
those options, fail potentially, and then come
back and start from, you know, ground zero, step
one. I think that's important. Wonderful. I hope
the parents listening will, for once, you know,
understand that their children are no longer
children. There's a certain stage in life when,
You know, you say that, yes, I've seen this child
from birth and then they've grown up. And there's
a point at which you need to really look at them
through fresh eyes. And I guess that's the point
at which parents themselves will develop a new
understanding. Wow, it's almost an hour. I didn't
believe that since we've been chatting. So it's
been wonderful talking to all of you. Final thoughts
that you want to sort of close out on? Deepika,
please go ahead. Yeah, thank you. I really just
want to acknowledge a point that Arya Manalati
just brought up about, you know, knowing that
you probably are going to fail, that some of
your decisions are going to be bad and taking
comfort in the fact that your parents will support
you. Like, I think that's something that, you
know, is so essential for all of us. Like, if
our parents are not going to support us, then
who are? You know, like, I mean, of course, we
have friends and other networks, but this is
like such a crucial and important network. So,
yeah, so I hope for everyone to have really supportive
parents who are okay with them failing and coming
back and having to start from scratch. Wonderful.
Arumum? I'm at this weird juncture in my life
where I'm graduating soon and I don't have a
job in hand. I'm applying for jobs and still
figuring it out. And... I can tell you it's very
scary to be in this place in life because you
think there is this idea that after a job, after
you study, you will get a job. But there is this
limbo in between where you're still figuring
things out. In India, I feel many people have
this opportunity of campus placements, so maybe
they don't feel this limbo. But I feel that this
limbo... teaches you a couple of things so I
encourage everyone whoever whoever is in this
limbo to use the time to number one introspect
on what you want to do number two try and hone
up try and refine the skills that you've acquired
you know brush the dust off and you know you
thought you knew it but maybe you don't so go
back to it and try and relearn and take this
time in between two major phases of your life
to prepare for the next journey. Mentally, physically,
because for people who have never worked before
in their life, it is eight, nine hours of maybe
sitting in a chair. Maybe you get up for lunch,
you get up for dinner. You need to be physically
prepared for this. You need to ensure that you
are ready. Your back is not going to hurt. Be
physically prepared. That's one tip I've been
trying to prepare. Go out. walk a little, come
back every day and make that a regular part of
your life. To be mentally prepared for the culture
that might be different from what you're used
to. Be ready to adjust. And the last thing, which
I said earlier, don't expect things to work out.
If they do, great. If they don't, we can come
back to the drawing board again and again and
again. So that's what I want to say. Wonderful.
Wonderful, Ariman. Great. I think you picked
it there. Aditi, what would you like to say in
conclusion? To follow up those really well -spoken.
So, yeah, I thought about how I would like to
end, you know, this podcast. First of all, thank
you for having me on, Veenwanko. You know, this
has been very interesting getting to listen to
what you two have to say as well. Advice I was
looking for when I left university a little less
than a year ago that I ended up practicing was
to get bored. So if you're in limbo, like Ariman
mentioned, get bored, stare at a wall, go into
the forest, meditate a bit, get bored and revitalize
your interest or your curiosity in something
that may have been lost along the way. You know,
university has... can have a peculiar effect
of dimming any sort of interest that you had
begun with. At least that was the case for me.
So get bored and you'll find your way eventually.
That's what I'm telling myself at the very least.
So yes, that's all I have to say. Yeah. No, I
think we all face this. We faced this a few generations
ago. Our choices were limited. But the same fears,
the same worry, the same lack of understanding
from our parents, because when you tried to,
in my case, I was happy because I was able to
get into advertising, which at that point was
seen as why would anyone want to work in advertising?
But, you know, so thank you all. I mean, it's
been an education because one of the things that
I expected was that, you know, you'll. You have
your areas of where you want to improve, but
I think you've got an extremely, you know, sound
foundation. And I'm sure that you will contribute
in major ways in the years to come. Thank you
for being on the My First Job podcast. And it's
been a pleasure having you. Thank you so much.
I really enjoyed listening to all of you. Okay,
so I'll say bye -bye and then closing remarks
and see you. All the best for the future. Thank
you. This was an education as far as I was concerned.
This is the first time we are talking to a younger
generation. And what they had to say left me
more of an optimist rather than someone worried
about the future. They have such a clear idea
of what they'd like to do. At that point let's
leave it until next week.