1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Good afternoon. 2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:19,640 Today we have Madhura Dasgupta Sena. 3 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:25,100 In most cases, people start with their first job when they graduate. 4 00:00:25,100 --> 00:00:32,520 But Madhura has found a whole new career after she had already had a wonderful streak in 5 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:34,280 banking. 6 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,240 She was part of ANZ GreenLays. 7 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:43,080 Then she headed the consumer division looking after over 2 million accounts at Stanchart 8 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:48,200 and she set up the HR practices and processes at IDFC. 9 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:56,520 But in March 2020, when the pandemic broke, that's the exact point when she decided she 10 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,400 needed to make a difference in women's lives. 11 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:09,640 We'll try and figure out how her motivations work and what has got her into the whole new 12 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:16,480 exercise of making a revolution in employing women. 13 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:17,480 Hi Madhura. 14 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:19,920 Welcome to the show. 15 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:20,920 Thank you so much. 16 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:28,840 It's been a pleasure having you and there's so much that I want to start, talk about. 17 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:34,440 But one of the things that I saw was that you won the Schevening scholarship back in 18 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:35,440 2003. 19 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:45,820 So, did that have something to do with the way your life worked out and the influences 20 00:01:45,820 --> 00:01:46,820 that it had? 21 00:01:46,820 --> 00:01:51,280 Well, it was great that you started with Schevening because it was a very defining experience in 22 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:52,280 my life. 23 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:58,680 We are celebrating 20 years of that wonderful experience. 24 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:04,160 The British Schevening scholarship program was being given out to 12 women across India 25 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:08,880 and they were women from all walks of life. 26 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:15,360 What I gained out of that three months of living in the UK and also traveling a bit 27 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:23,080 of the parts around there, I realized that you can actually get friendships for life 28 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,960 if you're thrown into circumstances like that. 29 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:30,800 Some of my friends from my British Schevening scholarship program today are pillars that 30 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:32,600 aspire for her. 31 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:38,760 They have been my friends, philosophers, guides across my journey. 32 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:44,860 It's been absolutely wonderful to cherish that wealth of friendships that got created 33 00:02:44,860 --> 00:02:47,120 during the Schevening days. 34 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:53,680 Also, notably, I think my thoughts around diversity and my views around women in the 35 00:02:53,680 --> 00:03:00,520 workplace changed and molded quite a bit thanks to the experience I had in the British Schevening 36 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:06,080 scholarship program because there was a dissertation that we all needed to do. 37 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:12,280 I had chosen a topic saying what prevents women from becoming CEOs. 38 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:17,360 I got a chance to meet very interesting women across the globe because of that, including 39 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,240 a bunch of them in the UK. 40 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:28,040 That actually defined and helped me also come to terms with some of the harsh realities 41 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:37,840 that women professionals face as they become more and more senior in the corporate world. 42 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:39,120 How did you start off? 43 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,720 What were your early experiences in banking? 44 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,720 I had a fairly conventional life. 45 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:51,280 I became an engineer because it was a good thing to become an engineer. 46 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:57,040 I then did my MBA because it seemed to be a good thing to do. 47 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:04,280 I joined banking purely because Ainsley and Greenless Bank came to our campus and decided 48 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,240 I was a good fit. 49 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:12,480 I truly enjoyed banking because I think the 25 years that I spent in banking were very 50 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,440 rewarding in multiple different ways. 51 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:17,560 It shaped my thinking. 52 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,080 It shaped my vision. 53 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:25,800 It also gave me huge opportunities to build on my leadership skills. 54 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:27,240 I really enjoyed banking. 55 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,400 I really enjoyed banking. 56 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:37,040 I feel a little sad at times that banking and banking careers often get a bit of a bad 57 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:38,920 press at times. 58 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:45,480 But frankly, I think it can be one of the most enriching careers, not financially, but 59 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:51,480 otherwise one of the most enriching careers that one can have on this planet. 60 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:56,600 The thing about relationship banking, you get these calls once in a way, you have people 61 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,680 who say, what does it involve? 62 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:01,320 How do you manage? 63 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:07,840 Because very clearly this is a relationship that's built on a business. 64 00:05:07,840 --> 00:05:13,120 So when it comes to interacting with people who know very clearly that, yes, their interests 65 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:20,280 are being kept in mind, but what are the kinds of things that you have to navigate? 66 00:05:20,280 --> 00:05:24,720 So look, banking is finally all about trust. 67 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:30,640 The bank that I started with right out of campus was Ainsley Greenleys Bank. 68 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:34,040 That was actually called the Relationship Bank. 69 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:39,600 I think so many years ago, 25 years ago, they ran a beautiful program on their relationship 70 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:44,520 managers, a bit of an advertising campaign actually, where they featured the real relationship 71 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:51,600 managers who would come forward and their faces, and they were stalwarts because customers 72 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:56,680 would absolutely swear by them. 73 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:03,680 What I saw in my early years in banking is when you are part of a bank, you're a branch 74 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:08,280 manager or you're part of the branch, you're part of a community. 75 00:06:08,280 --> 00:06:14,360 So the entire community trusts you and the entire community wants to embrace you and 76 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:15,600 welcome you within them. 77 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,520 You're there for a few years, but that does happen. 78 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:26,280 I used to be in Santa Cruz branch and we had a lot of celebrity customers from Bollywood 79 00:06:26,280 --> 00:06:31,440 and they would come and have a cup of coffee with me from time to time. 80 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:40,320 I would usually get invited to all the parties of Bollywood, et cetera. 81 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:45,720 I used to read Stardust for professional development. 82 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:52,160 I needed to know the right things and who was seeing who and who was doing which movies 83 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,680 so that I could make intelligent conversation with my clients. 84 00:06:55,680 --> 00:07:00,960 But finally, when it all turns out to be the kind of person that you are, because often 85 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:07,120 a lot of those customers and those clients have become great friends. 86 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,560 They talk to me when they're taking a life decision. 87 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:16,000 They talk to me when they're wanting to make a big investment or anything that's coming 88 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:20,280 their way, though I have nothing to do with their professional lives or with their banking 89 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:22,000 lives anymore. 90 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:30,120 But I think banking gives you an immediate access to the community. 91 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:36,120 In those days, at least, I think it used to be a lot more evident. 92 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:43,000 There was a huge amount of respect and love and affection for the banker who was almost 93 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:44,000 part of your life. 94 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:50,560 I was part of another branch, which is a 24-hour branch in Breach Candy. 95 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:57,160 You know, again, I think the most high net worth catchment area in the country. 96 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:01,400 You were expected to know the dog's birthday as well at that point in time. 97 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,840 That was how deep relationships went. 98 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:08,360 Okay, but what does a 24-hour branch involve? 99 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:13,280 Why does it never shut? 100 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:18,900 But the point is, which is what online banking is today. 101 00:08:18,900 --> 00:08:24,680 But before it came in, what was the real, the fact that it never shuts is the only, 102 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,160 or were there things that customers wanted? 103 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:28,160 I'll tell you a story. 104 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:32,560 There used to be a bunch of customers who would, again, this is in a Breach Candy, one 105 00:08:32,560 --> 00:08:38,160 of the most premier, expensive locations in the country. 106 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:43,240 So there would be customers who would come in at 11 p.m. because they want to access 107 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:48,400 the lockers and they would take out their diamonds and then go to the party. 108 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:56,160 Usually, these would be on page three parties with fairly high profile folks, guests, and 109 00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:00,960 then they would come back at 3 a.m. and put their diamonds back. 110 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:05,360 So this was a... 111 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:11,120 Okay, diamond in, party in, and then diamond back in place and back to work. 112 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:12,120 Okay. 113 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:16,520 Yeah, and because we were open at 3 a.m. and therefore, it really, really helped them. 114 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,680 So you're right that nowadays also banks never shut because you have it all on your mobile 115 00:09:20,680 --> 00:09:21,680 phone. 116 00:09:21,680 --> 00:09:28,160 And in those days, we were not as tech-friendly as we are today. 117 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,840 Banking wasn't as digital. 118 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,080 But this is something that you cannot do digitally, right? 119 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,040 So a 24-hour bank did help. 120 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,920 And our customers loved the fact that we never shut. 121 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,760 So you just could not put the shutters down. 122 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:43,760 That's it. 123 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:48,320 But sometimes aren't these customers extremely demanding as well? 124 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:49,840 I mean, can't it get... 125 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:51,480 It can get a little... 126 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:56,000 Breach Candy customers were among, I think, the most demanding that I have ever seen in 127 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:57,000 my life. 128 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:58,000 Extremely. 129 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:03,280 They were extremely, they knew exactly what they wanted. 130 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,840 And the world was out there to give it to them. 131 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:11,280 But I think it was one of the best learning experiences in my life because later in life, 132 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:16,480 I realized that if I have managed a Breach Candy customer well, and if I've kept them 133 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,840 happy, I can keep anybody happy. 134 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,720 That's just about it. 135 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,560 That's the gold standard of customer management. 136 00:10:25,560 --> 00:10:26,560 Absolutely. 137 00:10:26,560 --> 00:10:27,560 Absolutely. 138 00:10:27,560 --> 00:10:30,680 Because they were difficult, they were demanding. 139 00:10:30,680 --> 00:10:38,560 But when you walked with them on their journey, then they would also become great friends. 140 00:10:38,560 --> 00:10:43,560 So I think it also gave me a lot of confidence about my own relationship management skills 141 00:10:43,560 --> 00:10:55,600 and how perhaps I was kind of, I think, trusted. 142 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,880 And I felt there's a huge responsibility. 143 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:05,560 And I sort of liked being part of that entire circle of trust, really. 144 00:11:05,560 --> 00:11:07,760 What were the Bollywood customers like? 145 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:08,760 Were they... 146 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,520 Obviously, when you see them without the glamour, without the... 147 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:19,760 Where they're asking about the mundane problems as opposed to something else. 148 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,080 No, they were amazing. 149 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:23,080 They were amazing. 150 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:32,760 And at that time, we had customers, actors, producers, directors, and a whole lot of them. 151 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:39,000 So one of my really, really favorite clients was Aishwarya Rai's father. 152 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:43,880 And he used to keep coming, Mr. Rai used to keep coming to the branch and having a cup 153 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,400 of coffee with me almost every day. 154 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:50,000 And it was like my favorite ritual to start my day. 155 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:54,920 And he would talk about what Aishwarya was doing in those days, a really long back, much 156 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,920 before she got married. 157 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:02,600 And we had such a wonderful relationship. 158 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:09,240 And that he would share his challenges at times and he would share how blessed he felt 159 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,520 as a family. 160 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:15,720 Because Aishwarya's career trajectory was really, really taking off. 161 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:17,680 And we all felt very, very proud of her. 162 00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:20,600 She was going to Cannes, in fact, and it was one episode. 163 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,480 And at that time, we used to have travelers checks. 164 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:31,880 And if you recall, the travelers checks had to be signed in the presence of a branch official. 165 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:36,440 And so I was the branch manager and I was supposed to go to her house and she was going 166 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,840 to Cannes and I was supposed to go to her house and hand over the traveler checks because 167 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:42,680 it had to happen in my presence. 168 00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:50,240 And suddenly I realized that my boss and his boss suddenly got very excited about travelers 169 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:51,240 checks. 170 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,240 And I was like, okay. 171 00:12:54,240 --> 00:13:01,160 And basically, can we help you in some way? 172 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,600 And we can go across. 173 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,480 We can go across and do this for you. 174 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:12,120 And I had never seen this enthusiasm and this excitement for any other customer and any 175 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:13,720 other traveler checks. 176 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,800 So it was indeed a very funny moment. 177 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,200 And I said, I think I'll manage. 178 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:27,880 But they were very, very interested and insistent about being of service to me. 179 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:29,440 No other motivation at all. 180 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:36,400 They just wanted to help me out and carry to the customer. 181 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:42,000 You mentioned that once you've handled a breach candy customer, you've really... 182 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:46,120 And I think that's true of practically every corporate boardroom, because when you get 183 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:52,240 to that level, you know exactly what you need to do and where you need to intervene, where 184 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,880 you need to stay quiet and where you need to... 185 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,880 Which is, I think, an art that evolves only over time. 186 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,080 It doesn't come right in the beginning. 187 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:02,620 It's one of those things that you... 188 00:14:02,620 --> 00:14:08,800 Do you think you instinctively had it in you or was it an art that you developed over time? 189 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:16,840 You know, I think naturally I'm a bit of an introvert, but nobody believes it, unfortunately. 190 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:21,000 Nobody believes it. 191 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,720 I believe it. 192 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,800 And I think I developed the art of conversation. 193 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:36,040 And like you said about probably the ability to know when one should speak or when one 194 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:40,000 should not and when one should just hold one's tongue. 195 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:44,360 I think I picked that up a lot through my client interactions. 196 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:46,520 And I was always... 197 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:52,480 I always feel that that one cup of coffee that you have, you should have it with a customer. 198 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:59,000 And I think COVID, they put paid to some of those very glorious thoughts I had about aspire 199 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,360 for her clients as well, that I should go and meet them all the time. 200 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:08,080 And obviously Zoom and these virtual models have become much easier now. 201 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:18,000 But I strongly felt that being a part of their lives and being a part of their entire ecosystem 202 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,520 and not necessarily only at a transactional level. 203 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:27,360 I need some work to be done or I need a checkbook to be picked up or I need a traveler's checks 204 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,200 to be delivered, et cetera. 205 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:36,720 Not really only at that level, but at a deeper level in terms of being genuinely interested 206 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:38,440 in their lives. 207 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:40,240 I think that helps me. 208 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:45,240 And I think I have developed that skill a little bit. 209 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,240 So I enjoy it. 210 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:49,240 I enjoy it. 211 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:53,880 I enjoy being interested in other people's lives and finding out more about them. 212 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:58,960 And it therefore naturally weaves into probably the conversations that I have with them. 213 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,200 Yeah, no, it's a, it's really one of those things. 214 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:09,000 And I think that's the other part that making friends and being able to have longstanding 215 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:15,960 friends, people with whom you've been through a lot right from the beginning, whether it's 216 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:22,160 college or at a point when none of you had anything in the, there was nothing at stake. 217 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,520 Yeah, there was no agenda. 218 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:25,520 There was no agenda. 219 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:30,640 Whereas unfortunately, once it gets into a job, there is an agenda and no matter how 220 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:36,080 open people are, there is always this little thing that you can't be a hundred percent 221 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:40,680 certain that this is how things will work out, which is sad, but I guess that's the 222 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:41,680 way of the world. 223 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:46,440 It's not as if it's, it's something that, and the sooner you understand those nuances, 224 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:48,480 the better it gets for you. 225 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:49,480 Yes. 226 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:50,480 Yes. 227 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:56,000 And also think that even later in life, you can actually make good friends. 228 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:57,000 Yes. 229 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:03,440 Especially as fire for her has actually given me some absolutely amazing friends and that's 230 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:04,440 only three years old. 231 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:05,440 Right? 232 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:10,800 So I never thought that at the age of 50, you know, I would make so many deep friendships 233 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,560 and I'm very blessed that that's the way it's turned out. 234 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:19,200 I think that's a complete flip, but I'll just dwell one little bit because you said that 235 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:26,040 you approached HR in a completely different way at IDFC and you focused on the employee. 236 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:27,760 What was the thinking there? 237 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:34,480 Actually, it was a very interesting conversation that I had when I was joining IDFC. 238 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:39,680 You know, I thought that the role that they would probably offer to me would be something 239 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,040 in the consumer banking realm. 240 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:48,520 And suddenly the conversation changed and the person who was talking to me and I really 241 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,320 think he's one of the best thought leaders in HR today. 242 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:59,160 He said, you know, I want you to start something called employee experience. 243 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:05,360 And I said, look, you know, I have not even done an HR degree and I've never done an HR 244 00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:06,680 role in my life. 245 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,280 I have been a consumer banker all my life. 246 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,580 And why do you want me to do this? 247 00:18:11,580 --> 00:18:17,180 And he said, you know, we're going to be the 89th bank in the country. 248 00:18:17,180 --> 00:18:23,880 And we will not be able to attract talent unless we have a very strong talent proposition. 249 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:30,480 And that talent proposition can happen if we treat our employees like our best customers. 250 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:35,360 So hey, I want somebody like you who's dealt with customers all their lives to come in 251 00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:38,200 and set up employee experience at IDFC. 252 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,200 So that's how that journey started. 253 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:45,600 And it was a fascinating journey of actually building a bank because when I joined IDFC, 254 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,400 it was not a bank. 255 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,960 It was still an NBFC. 256 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:56,640 And only after about one and a half years, I did the bank, you know, take birth. 257 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:03,080 So that was a bank when you started IDFC would have had how many employees on board would 258 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,600 have had roughly about zero. 259 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,400 You're part of the founding team. 260 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:13,480 Yeah, I was, I was actually the probably the third or fourth person who joined for the 261 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:14,480 bank. 262 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,760 So I joined the the NBFC. 263 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,880 I joined the other entity because at that time there was no banking entity. 264 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,920 But I was a third or fourth person who joined for the bank. 265 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:28,320 So and then of course, by the time I left, we had 20,000 employees. 266 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:29,320 Wow. 267 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:30,320 Okay. 268 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:32,360 Now, this is one thing. 269 00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:39,480 It's easy to maintain a relationship when the number of people is small. 270 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:45,440 But as you extend and it goes geographically, it spreads across many regions. 271 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:46,440 What's the key? 272 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:52,120 How do you ensure that this employee first is something that you're able to implement 273 00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:53,960 right down the line? 274 00:19:53,960 --> 00:20:05,280 So you know, we used a model of employee experience and we used a combination of tech and touch. 275 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:12,200 As we grow, it's very difficult to replicate that same warmth and affection and touch based 276 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,200 models across the employee base. 277 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:21,520 So what we did is we started something like an employee experience relationship manager. 278 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:28,540 And this was something that we used to do in banking quite successfully. 279 00:20:28,540 --> 00:20:34,280 So the EXRM, so the employee experience relationship managers would actually be in charge of a 280 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:40,880 certain set of employees and they would be the sole point of contacts to ensure that 281 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:49,240 the bank's policies, processes, relationships, any needs that they had were sort of met. 282 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:54,280 So when we started, we looked at employee journeys and we looked at journey mapping 283 00:20:54,280 --> 00:21:00,560 very closely and we actually mapped out 18 employee journeys. 284 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:07,560 And we started at the time that any person would start thinking about a new job and how 285 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,320 can we be in their inbox? 286 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,540 How can we be there in their Instagram feed? 287 00:21:13,540 --> 00:21:16,920 How can we be there in their social media at that point in time? 288 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,800 That's when a journey actually starts, the employee journey starts. 289 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:26,760 And then it continues into onboarding and recruitment and all of that. 290 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:33,800 And the journey actually never ends because if you've been a part of an organization 291 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:40,480 and if that organization has walked with you for a part of your professional journey, then 292 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,160 you always remain an alumni. 293 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,000 You always remain a part of that organization. 294 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,720 A part of you also gets left behind there. 295 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,880 So therefore we feel that it's a journey with a beginning but not with an end. 296 00:21:53,880 --> 00:22:02,000 And all of those 18 journeys we actually sat down and we used a lot of tech-based approaches 297 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:10,560 to ensure that across the moments of truth of each of those journeys, we also used a 298 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,440 bit of touch. 299 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:17,280 So in a critical moments of truth, like for example, the day that you join or the day 300 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:24,880 that you get your letter and we used some very small things like when the employee was 301 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:31,680 getting welcomed into the organization and when she got the letter, we would also give 302 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,600 a bouquet of flowers to the spouse. 303 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:40,480 And this was something that at that time was very, very unusual. 304 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:49,480 And in many cases, the spouses got their first ever bouquets of flowers from the bank. 305 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:55,200 So they were very, very touched and they said, wow, this is really cool. 306 00:22:55,200 --> 00:23:01,000 And they would also ensure that as a part of the journey, they'd also ensure that their 307 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:07,040 wife or their husband definitely goes and joins the bank because they felt very special 308 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,680 and they felt very, very welcomed. 309 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:15,000 After a few days, the employee would actually get a Starbucks card, a preloaded Starbucks 310 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:16,680 card. 311 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:22,760 And while the flower was meant to win over the family and to welcome the family to the 312 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:28,240 bank, the Starbucks card was meant to win over his colleagues and friends. 313 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:34,280 The thought process being that he or she would go to Starbucks and take other friends along 314 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:40,560 and also talk about the wonderful new place that they were joining and therefore the friends 315 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:45,680 would also want to apply and come and join. 316 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:51,160 I think you've touched on something really important here that the way the employee works 317 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:58,240 with the organization and the experience and her experience after she leaves contributes 318 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:03,000 just as much to how easy it becomes to get people in later because all it takes is for 319 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:08,400 someone whose work somewhere to say, no, I didn't like it very much to turn people off. 320 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,200 Whereas if they say, go ahead, you're going to learn a lot from there, it just becomes 321 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,520 progressively easier. 322 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:19,600 And I think Mudra also used to do this, that the spouse, the wife or the husband would 323 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,840 get something and it always did make a difference. 324 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:29,720 Oh, it's a very small gesture, but it made a huge difference. 325 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:36,240 And we continued this for a few years and of course every organization evolves and every 326 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,360 organization goes through its own journey. 327 00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:47,280 But I think we got a lot of accolades and we got a lot of awards for the kind of impact 328 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:48,280 that this created. 329 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:56,920 And the fact that employees really looked at it as a very warm, welcoming workplace, 330 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:03,720 which truly sort of in a celebrated marriage, which truly celebrated its employees. 331 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:04,720 Yeah. 332 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:05,720 And this is true. 333 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,720 The other aspect is really to reflect truly what the organization is. 334 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:15,920 So if it's a serious place, if you project fun in the ad, it normally attracts the wrong 335 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:16,920 people. 336 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:17,920 Yes. 337 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:22,620 So, you know, so I think it's so important to get the tone, right? 338 00:25:22,620 --> 00:25:26,080 Some people feel that, no, but I will not get the right person. 339 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,360 The whole point is that, like you said, the journeys have to be mapped and then you have 340 00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:33,880 to figure out exactly who fits in and who will deliver. 341 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:35,680 Only then does it really make sense. 342 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:36,680 Yeah. 343 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:37,680 Yes. 344 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:38,680 Yes. 345 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:43,920 I mean, the whole journey mapping, you know, journey mapping journey that we did, which 346 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,200 is across all those 18 journeys. 347 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,800 That was one of the best learning experiences in my life as well. 348 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:57,480 And I can imagine how, you know, going to 20,000 from zero is, is really something. 349 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:03,120 So it's not something that a lot of organizations will not have that rate of growth beyond a 350 00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:04,120 certain point. 351 00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:09,640 So you understand scale, you understand how it takes it to that level. 352 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:17,000 So let's say now the part which you're really, you know, which you're fully invested in. 353 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:18,000 Yes. 354 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:24,600 So March 2020, I think the whole world was worried about the impending pandemic and you 355 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,920 decide that you want to start a new company or you want to get into this. 356 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:33,160 I didn't know that the pandemic would start right after that. 357 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,120 So 8th of March is when we wanted to launch. 358 00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:41,880 And I had been thinking about this for a while because I wanted to do something for the women 359 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:42,880 of our country. 360 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:47,600 I was turning 50 years old and I felt I waited long enough. 361 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:53,600 And I was looking at the devastating data and I was very, very upset. 362 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:59,000 And you know, I was complaining to my mother saying, you know, this is so terrible and 363 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:04,440 how come India is absolutely at the bottom in terms of women's economic participation. 364 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:08,560 And look at LFPR, look at labor force participation rate for women. 365 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,880 It's going down every year. 366 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:12,840 It goes, it goes down a bit. 367 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,920 And just very unobtrusively, it seems to just slide. 368 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,080 We've dug ourselves into some kind of hole. 369 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:19,640 What are we doing? 370 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,920 And I was seeing the best and the brightest women around me in India. 371 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:28,840 And you know, then my mother looked at me and said, what are you doing about it? 372 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:36,840 And so I said, all right, I think I should do something about it myself. 373 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:42,280 And you know, she said, yeah, instead of complaining and whining and mourning that things are not 374 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,960 happening and you know, others are not doing this and the government is not doing that. 375 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,480 And this is then, you know, the world is not doing anything. 376 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:51,480 What are you doing about it? 377 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,360 You know, do something, get up and do something. 378 00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:55,800 So that's why I did. 379 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:56,800 That's it. 380 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:58,480 So what are the first steps? 381 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,240 Where did you begin? 382 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:07,540 So you know, I was very keen to do something for women becoming financially independent. 383 00:28:07,540 --> 00:28:13,600 So I basically wanted to motivate all women in our country to become financially independent. 384 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:19,040 And it actually started with one day when, you know, it just became too much. 385 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:20,720 And I said, I have to do this. 386 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,800 And the same day, two things happened. 387 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:27,920 So my friend, the dear friend of mine who used to work before and then left her job 388 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:34,520 after marriage, her dad was unwell and she actually wanted to contribute to his medical 389 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,480 expenses. 390 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:41,540 She suddenly realized that she does not have any money that she can call her own. 391 00:28:41,540 --> 00:28:43,960 And she gets along very well with her husband. 392 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:49,680 It's not that there's any problem, but she didn't want to ask him for money. 393 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:55,420 And she realized that, you know, I cannot even support my dad in his treatment. 394 00:28:55,420 --> 00:28:57,520 And this is such a terrible feeling. 395 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,160 And she felt very, very depressed and sad about this. 396 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,400 And she said, my parents have done so much and I cannot give back anything. 397 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:09,960 And the same day, you know, as I was having tea, you know, a friend of a friend of my 398 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:15,400 daughter's comes in and says, you know what, this person talking about a third person, 399 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:16,880 she's gone and left her job today. 400 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:18,960 She was working in Deloitte. 401 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:20,920 So I said, why? 402 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:21,920 What happened? 403 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:23,960 You know, has she got a better job? 404 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:25,520 And she says, no, not at all. 405 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,800 She's getting into an arranged marriage. 406 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,880 And the boy's family has said that the women in our family don't work. 407 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,800 So she has resigned. 408 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:43,600 I said, does she not know that she's going to become my friend, my morning friend, you 409 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,600 know, in 20 years time, does she not know that this is going to happen to her? 410 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,800 So she somebody needs to tell her that this is going to happen to you. 411 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:57,100 And that's how I thought of the name aspire for her. 412 00:29:57,100 --> 00:30:00,320 And that's how I said, let's get this started. 413 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:01,880 And that's how I started. 414 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:08,240 So I worked for about, I would say, maybe a one and a half months. 415 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,240 I think I started sometime in Jan. 416 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:18,040 And then I started working and we were, I found somebody who would help me do the website, 417 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:23,040 put together the basic creatives and all of that, do some little bit of social media, 418 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:24,040 et cetera. 419 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:31,240 And I was actually landing in the U.S. on the seventh of March because we wanted to 420 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,120 spend spring break with my daughter. 421 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:40,400 And so the whole flight, I was actually signing off on things and looking at the designs and 422 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,240 looking at the website and all of that. 423 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:47,400 So the whole flight was very productive and we landed and we thought that there was something 424 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:48,400 wrong. 425 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,800 I mean, at that time, the pandemic was a little, I mean, it was there, but we felt that it 426 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:54,160 could go off in a few weeks. 427 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:55,160 Right. 428 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:56,160 All of us felt that way. 429 00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:02,880 And in the U.S., everybody at that time was very, very, you know, they were doing their 430 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,760 own thing and nobody seemed to feel that there's anything wrong. 431 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:12,400 And we felt that we were probably being ultra cautious or we were being a little paranoid. 432 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,080 And then suddenly everything escalated in that week. 433 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,280 So we launched Aspire for Her on the eighth of March. 434 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:25,480 And I was in Boston and a bunch of folks here across India and other parts of the world 435 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,840 all sort of signed in, logged in and we said, hey, we're on and we launched. 436 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:30,920 That's it. 437 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,680 And the flight, as I said, most of the stuff got done on the flight. 438 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:35,680 So that's it. 439 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:36,680 That's how we launched. 440 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,520 And the first day, I think we had just a few people signed up. 441 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,920 A lot of my daughter's friends signed up. 442 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:49,160 And you know, every hour we would see to see how many new people signed up to Aspire for 443 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:50,160 Her. 444 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,360 And yeah, that's how it started. 445 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,680 And that was the beginning. 446 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:57,680 Okay. 447 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:07,840 I think you say educate, empower and employment, education and entrepreneurship. 448 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:08,840 Those are the three. 449 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:16,920 We say E-Cube is equal to MC-Cubed. 450 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,680 That's how we see the trillion dollar opportunity. 451 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,600 That's how we see the trillion dollar opportunity. 452 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:28,200 So E-Cube is essentially employment, entrepreneurship or education, which leads to one of these two. 453 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:33,640 So deliberately, I put education third because education has to lead to either employment 454 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:35,400 or entrepreneurship. 455 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:41,640 And MC-CNC are the critical success factors that we work to change mindsets of women and 456 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:48,720 the ecosystem, mentors and role models, courses, cohorts and learning, career previews and 457 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:53,120 resources and of course, community, which is at the heart of all that. 458 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:54,120 Okay. 459 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,480 But someone signs up. 460 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:57,480 Okay. 461 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:03,600 You said you sign up and then we will help you or you say that we'll figure out what 462 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,520 needs to be done. 463 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:12,920 How did you arrive at a kind of system for evaluating what help each person needed? 464 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:18,960 So we don't really have a very foolproof system for evaluating what help each person needs. 465 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:26,900 But what we do is we use this model for anyone who comes and becomes part of our community. 466 00:33:26,900 --> 00:33:34,520 So usually a person who comes into the community has a need and in any community, in any relationship, 467 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,840 as you know, that there is always a mix of give and take. 468 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:44,120 Usually when they join Aspire for Her, there is something that's in the take bucket that's 469 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:45,120 there in their head. 470 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:50,920 So either they want a job or they want a mentorship or they want some insight in a career or they 471 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,380 want some learning opportunities or they want to do a course, etc. 472 00:33:54,380 --> 00:33:56,920 So that's when they usually join. 473 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:01,440 And in our experience, what you've seen is that the give and take sort of progresses 474 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:06,160 along as they go along and at one point in time, they reach a point to say, hey, I want 475 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:07,160 to give back now. 476 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,680 You know, I'm a returning woman. 477 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:11,560 I have come into Aspire for Her. 478 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,480 I have done the Amazon course. 479 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:17,200 I have got a fantastic job in Capgemini. 480 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:21,840 I feel very happy that I could actually get back into the workforce after 10 years of 481 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,000 break. 482 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:24,920 And now I want to give back. 483 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:30,280 I want to ensure that 10 other women, 20 other women, 100 other women like me also find that 484 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,720 they find their way back into the workforce. 485 00:34:33,720 --> 00:34:36,960 And I help them with their interview preparation. 486 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:41,040 I help them with their confidence building. 487 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:46,280 I help them with negotiation skills and I give back and paid forward. 488 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,000 That's been the philosophy of our community all through that. 489 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:51,800 It's a mix of give and take. 490 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,720 When you come in, you're probably in the take mode. 491 00:34:54,720 --> 00:35:00,160 But as you progress and as you grow within the community, you start giving. 492 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:04,640 And there could be another point in time when you want to get back into the take mode again. 493 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,480 But it is a community for a lifetime. 494 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,920 And it is just like any other relationship. 495 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,800 But we want to be that trusted partner by your side. 496 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:22,240 So do you fundamentally believe that women helping women has a better chance of success 497 00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:25,640 than people who say that, no, we must uplift. 498 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:30,040 There's this whole thing about policy where you say that first, I need women to be 499 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:34,520 so they were supposed to be OK, 30 percent of the seats reserved for women. 500 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:35,840 So that's something will happen. 501 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:41,760 But we found how that went because essentially they became proxies. 502 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:43,360 Then there were other things. 503 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:53,120 So how is it that you're able to figure out what is working and where is the pushback? 504 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:59,320 Because obviously these jobs, there is always there's gender diversity, which is important. 505 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:06,080 But when unemployment is so huge, then there is likely to be conflict. 506 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:13,200 So how do you what are the things that you look at to help people get over the problem 507 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,720 or to understand what is it that they need to do? 508 00:36:16,720 --> 00:36:20,120 So we have a lot of purpose to actually work with us. 509 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:21,120 Right. 510 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,440 And we have Amazon, Google. 511 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,360 We have standard charter. 512 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:27,360 We have DBS. 513 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:28,360 We have Deutsche Bank. 514 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:35,320 We have JP Morgan Chase, Morgan Stanley, Adobe, Salesforce, IBM, a whole bunch of organizations. 515 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,120 These are really forward looking organizations of our country. 516 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,960 And they do understand that diversity is a very important parameter. 517 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,560 DEI is a very important thing for them. 518 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:51,640 Diversity, equity and inclusion, primarily because they all also have ESG mandates. 519 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:59,800 So like you said, we should not assume that policy level changes do not achieve anything 520 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:07,520 because we strongly feel that there are policy pushes and there are policy nudges that do 521 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:14,600 help organizations look at diversity with a far more inclusive lens. 522 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:19,080 So these organizations that I mentioned, they belong to, if you realize, they belong to 523 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:20,840 a certain genre of organizations. 524 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:21,840 Right. 525 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,200 They're MNCs who are operating also in India. 526 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,640 They're usually headquartered elsewhere. 527 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:35,480 And they also have very strict guidelines in terms of their own DEI policies, their 528 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,880 own DEI mandates, goals, objectives, et cetera. 529 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:45,400 So what happens in India is that because India often accounts for a large headcount for them. 530 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:50,720 So therefore their numerator versus denominator, because India becomes a large denominator, 531 00:37:50,720 --> 00:37:53,920 they want to also ensure that the India numerator looks good. 532 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:54,920 Right. 533 00:37:54,920 --> 00:38:00,680 It's all driven by policy, finally, at the end of the day, driven by the governance policies, 534 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:06,400 ESG policies at the heart of SNESG is DEI. 535 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:07,920 So does that help us? 536 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:08,920 Does that? 537 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:10,160 Of course it does. 538 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:16,680 And therefore, we would definitely vote for policy level interventions as well. 539 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,200 However, there are two lenses, right? 540 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:24,240 One is the lens of the organization or the corporate world and how they're looking at 541 00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:25,240 this space. 542 00:38:25,240 --> 00:38:29,680 And the other is the lens from the community perspective. 543 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:38,200 I mentioned two stories and I told you about how the community feels about being financially 544 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:42,520 disempowered, being financially dependent. 545 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:50,160 And especially after being educated, after seeing the world or after working for a bit, 546 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:55,320 if they're forced to sort of get out of the workforce or circumstances have compelled 547 00:38:55,320 --> 00:39:01,520 them to get out of the workforce in some way, there is a huge sense of vacuum in the women 548 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,240 in the country. 549 00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:08,100 What that does, and sometimes it is also linked to their sense of self-worth. 550 00:39:08,100 --> 00:39:12,760 And their sense of self-worth actually goes down dramatically because they feel that they're 551 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,480 not really contributing. 552 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,320 So therefore, what we try to do is to the community model. 553 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,560 And that's where the community comes in. 554 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:28,360 A community is actually the source of all the power and all the energy that we have 555 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,840 because a spiral for her cannot be there everywhere. 556 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,600 But the community can be there and the community can be there. 557 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:36,600 Yeah. 558 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:41,800 It's a whole concept of women supporting women and paying it forward. 559 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:48,400 I think those have been some of the very brilliant sort of changes that we have seen happening 560 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:52,880 in front of our eyes and stories of transformation have really motivated us. 561 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:53,880 No. 562 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:59,800 And as in advertising, one of the clients we handled, this lady had a wonderful idea. 563 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:06,020 It was about training women on simple things in language and managing households and everything 564 00:40:06,020 --> 00:40:08,520 else with SMS messages. 565 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,160 It was called mobile train. 566 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:16,120 And then she ran into problems that you would not have even thought of. 567 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:20,200 For example, most women didn't have a phone in their name. 568 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,120 They were using the husband's phone. 569 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:27,040 And then the other thing is that they had feature phones, which could only hold 10 messages 570 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,960 at a time or 15 messages. 571 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,160 So how do you figure out which is the message to be sent? 572 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,680 So when you break it down, you say, I'll create the content. 573 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:38,800 I'll send out SMS. 574 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:39,800 They will get to learn. 575 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:41,600 They will implement. 576 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:47,040 And then you run across something which seems unsurmountable because, you know, how do you 577 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,240 you then be distributing phones to everyone to try and sort this out? 578 00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:56,700 So this, I think some of these things are that they require a level of change. 579 00:40:56,700 --> 00:41:02,160 So do you believe in the top down works better than bottom up or which way do you think they 580 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:03,800 should be oriented? 581 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,880 So it has to come both ways, Venu, actually. 582 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:07,880 It's impossible. 583 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:14,440 This is a problem that has eaten into the fabric of our country for the past many years, 584 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:15,440 from 2005 onwards. 585 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,600 So that's like 17, 18 years, really. 586 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,040 I've been a steady decline. 587 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:26,880 And I have a personal working theory of why it started around 2005, because probably by 588 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:33,360 that time, families were getting more prosperous and the per capita income was actually growing 589 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:38,080 and women were then being told that you don't really need to work, you know, just sit at 590 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,120 home and relax and be the queen of your own house. 591 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:42,120 You don't need to work. 592 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:47,720 And that's the reason why I think it was also a lot of self selection out of the workforce 593 00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:49,720 that was happening. 594 00:41:49,720 --> 00:41:56,280 So you know, in our mind, I think both approaches are needed. 595 00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:02,400 Like I said, that the policy does help because there are there could be a lot of hiring managers 596 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:07,000 in these organizations that I also mentioned who do not believe in diversity, who only 597 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:13,000 want to hire people who look like that, who feel that a six month maternity leave is a 598 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,640 very big burden on the organization. 599 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:17,960 There are many people like that in our country. 600 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:27,200 So the policy helps us put a sort of a, you know, a guardrail around those thought processes 601 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:36,200 and the policy helps motivate people to actually do this, because even if you have a good diversity 602 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:41,880 quotient in your own team, often these organizations celebrate those teams. 603 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:47,240 And if they don't have enough women in their team, then they're actually called out. 604 00:42:47,240 --> 00:42:53,640 So therefore, for whatever reasons, the hiring managers do take some of those calls to say, 605 00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:59,000 yes, I need to have a woman, I need to have a diverse candidate. 606 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:04,600 And again, diversity is not only about women, it is about other formats diversity also. 607 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,260 We of course look at gender in a bigger way. 608 00:43:07,260 --> 00:43:11,980 So is policy, but it is also a lot of mindset change. 609 00:43:11,980 --> 00:43:15,840 And unfortunately, mindset cannot be touched or felt or smelt. 610 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:17,840 Not easy at all. 611 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:23,720 Which is why we use the EQ physical to MCQ model to change mindsets. 612 00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:27,880 It's done in a slightly indirect way. 613 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:33,120 So so that it's not really in your face and we don't keep telling you, oh, you must go 614 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:36,160 to work and this is the best thing about it. 615 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,880 And you know, you must study hard and you must get in there. 616 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:40,680 We try to be less preachy. 617 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:46,600 We try to be more real voices, real stories, you know, and that's the idea. 618 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:53,160 Could you give me a couple of stories, Madhura, which one is where you felt you succeeded 619 00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:56,000 far more than you expected to. 620 00:43:56,000 --> 00:44:01,280 And another one where you felt that no, it felt where it felt very short. 621 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:08,000 So I know that you're trying to bridge to and I just want to give viewers a sense of 622 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:13,600 where it is has it succeeded and where does the work where it hasn't worked? 623 00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,200 You know, do you have? 624 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:19,400 I'll probably start with the second one and where. 625 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:25,400 So this is a story of a returning woman and she had a gap of, I think, 12 or 13 years 626 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:33,520 and you know, so we we had at that time started our community with Amazon Web Services and 627 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,600 we were looking at women in cloud. 628 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:41,100 We were looking at women getting certified in cloud and then finding jobs for them. 629 00:44:41,100 --> 00:44:46,480 So the first step was to really, you know, announce this whole cohort and thousand people 630 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:51,360 applied and only 30 of them went, got in the first cohort. 631 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,040 So it was a very selective process. 632 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:59,200 So these 30 people got in and then they worked incredibly hard because it was a 14 week long 633 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,800 program, seven hours a day. 634 00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:04,360 So and this is all online. 635 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:10,200 So it was a fairly intense program which they did and then they had to write the examination 636 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,400 for cloud certification, which is a formal global examination. 637 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:20,000 They did that and they they passed and then they went through a full placement process 638 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:25,480 and this person got into a very, very reputed organization, reputed MNC after that. 639 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,120 So imagine the her entire journey, right? 640 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:33,840 13 years of break, then getting selected into the cohort, working very hard, passing the 641 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:39,800 exam, going for all of these interviews and then getting into the fairly difficult journey 642 00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:44,900 and everybody did not immediately get in, obviously, to this very prestigious organization. 643 00:45:44,900 --> 00:45:50,600 She gets in and then after a few days, like we are prone to do, we told her, hey, listen, 644 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,440 come in and you must tell your story to the community because now you have to pay it forward 645 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:56,880 and you have to talk to them. 646 00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:03,120 And she started crying and he said, look, you had a really fantastic journey. 647 00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:04,120 Why are you sad? 648 00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:05,120 What happened? 649 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:09,300 And she said that the day that I got into this organization, my husband has walked out 650 00:46:09,300 --> 00:46:10,300 of home. 651 00:46:10,300 --> 00:46:14,560 Well, because he says it's a job. 652 00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:17,280 Look at me. 653 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:21,120 I've taken an incredible amount of effort. 654 00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:27,120 I've invested and I've gone through so much of pain to get myself trained and retrained 655 00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:28,120 and reskilled. 656 00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,680 And here I want to get back into the workforce and I've managed to do this. 657 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:34,240 And this is what happens. 658 00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:41,240 So this is a story where I felt that there is a lot that we need to do to the ecosystem, 659 00:46:41,240 --> 00:46:43,240 which is for the men as well. 660 00:46:43,240 --> 00:46:47,320 We are clearly not doing enough. 661 00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:54,040 I think that is something that left me feeling very, very sad. 662 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:59,440 It really illustrates both sides of the divide. 663 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:04,360 At one point having to do so much of work in order to get there. 664 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:10,480 And finally, you're stymied not because you didn't make it, but because someone else is 665 00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:19,520 feeling insecure, which is, you know, that's the saddest part of the entire thing. 666 00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:25,920 There was this documentary on Netflix, which talked about, you know, students from extremely 667 00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:30,440 poor backgrounds who were admitted and then they had to figure out just one person from 668 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,100 that group who had come in and study. 669 00:47:33,100 --> 00:47:37,880 And then they had to go back to their families who were living in slums every year. 670 00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:43,960 And as they progress in their education, it becomes harder and harder for them, for both 671 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:48,760 the family as well as the person who's been selected. 672 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:51,960 Because the conflict is just too much. 673 00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:58,960 It gets to a point where it's very difficult to sort of come to terms with, am I lucky 674 00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:02,920 or am I not good enough? 675 00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:04,320 What is the... 676 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:09,040 And at the other end, they see people who are able to go much further. 677 00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,600 That sets off another set of conflicts altogether. 678 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:12,600 Yes. 679 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:20,040 So I think it's wonderful what you're tackling and what you're trying to do. 680 00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:27,200 And I think at some point it gets down to, yes, you have your victories, but there are 681 00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:33,460 equally large problems that suddenly loom, especially as you get more and more successful 682 00:48:33,460 --> 00:48:37,280 and more and more invested in making that change. 683 00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:38,280 Yes. 684 00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:39,280 Because these are not... 685 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:40,280 Yeah. 686 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:46,600 It's not an easy problem to solve and it's got multiple layers and it's got multiple 687 00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:51,320 sort of... it's not an algorithm. 688 00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:52,320 It's not an algorithm. 689 00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:53,320 That's the issue. 690 00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:54,320 That's the issue. 691 00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:55,320 Yeah. 692 00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:59,120 The algorithm loses it. 693 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,560 It'll handle one process. 694 00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:09,640 You mix six different variables and suddenly it goes off in all kinds of directions. 695 00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:15,400 As long as the process is repetitive and you require the same result over time, it's fine. 696 00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:16,400 Yes. 697 00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:23,080 Apparently even chat GPT goes off into hallucinations if you ask it to keep doing the same thing 698 00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:24,080 over and over again. 699 00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:29,600 You start getting results which are not by any yardstick normal. 700 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:30,600 Yeah. 701 00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:31,800 So that's the thing. 702 00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,120 So I think it's wonderful as to how... 703 00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:36,840 I can tell you the other story as well. 704 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:38,320 You asked for two stories, right? 705 00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:43,240 So I can tell you the other story as well, which sort of always motivates me, inspires 706 00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:44,760 me. 707 00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:50,720 And this is a person who is from a small town, Maharashtra called Dule. 708 00:49:50,720 --> 00:49:56,000 Her name is Prithika Kate and we started the Not Alone Community after the brutal second 709 00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:57,000 wave of COVID. 710 00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:03,960 This was in the month of May 2021, exactly two years ago. 711 00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:10,000 And the community started because I was very, very devastated. 712 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:11,000 We lost a classmate. 713 00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:14,720 We lost several classmates, but for this particular classmate, we were trying to raise a point 714 00:50:14,720 --> 00:50:17,080 of purpose for the daughter's education. 715 00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:22,680 And I called the wife and said, hey, you know, I need to get your account number because 716 00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:28,040 I'm creating this WhatsApp message so that everyone can remit the funds to the account. 717 00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:33,480 And she said, I don't know if I have a bank account. 718 00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,280 And these are all people like you and me. 719 00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,080 And I was absolutely devastated. 720 00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:42,100 And I said, this is what's happening to the women of our country. 721 00:50:42,100 --> 00:50:44,160 They are often missing out. 722 00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:49,320 I mean, they're losing their primary breadwinners without even a chance to say goodbye. 723 00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:52,160 And they do not even know whether they have a bank account. 724 00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:55,840 Forget whether there are huge credit card debts or whether there are loans hanging on 725 00:50:55,840 --> 00:51:01,280 their head or whether the house is in their name or not, or whether the whole PF thing 726 00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:02,280 is in a mess. 727 00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:07,040 I mean, you know, we found anyway, so that's how we started Not Alone. 728 00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:15,000 A community meant solely for women who have lost their primary breadwinners to COVID. 729 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:21,160 And that community turned out to be a huge source of inspiration for us. 730 00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:24,840 And we went headlong in after this conversation. 731 00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:26,360 I said we have to do something. 732 00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:32,440 And we used the same EQ is equal to MCQ model like we use for all our communities, except 733 00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,880 that the mentorship piece was very, very, very strong here. 734 00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:37,280 It was almost like an anchor. 735 00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:39,640 It was not really a mentor. 736 00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:44,400 And some of our wonderful mentors, they became anchors and they helped many of the women 737 00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:46,880 take charge of their lives. 738 00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:50,640 Many of them were being thrown out of their homes because the in-laws did not want them 739 00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:51,640 anymore. 740 00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:53,680 They did not know their legal standing. 741 00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:54,680 Many of them didn't know. 742 00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,480 Finances, it was a huge mess. 743 00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,160 They were emotionally devastated, financially insecure. 744 00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:03,920 It's the worst ever combination that can happen to anyone. 745 00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:07,520 A lot of them felt like they would end their lives. 746 00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:14,520 And this person, Preeti Kattay, actually, her husband was very young in his 30s. 747 00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:19,240 She had two young children, aged in-laws and parents and lived in Thule. 748 00:52:19,240 --> 00:52:22,740 And husband died due to COVID. 749 00:52:22,740 --> 00:52:25,040 And she had never worked in her life before. 750 00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:30,180 So Preeti almost was at a point when she was giving up on life. 751 00:52:30,180 --> 00:52:34,240 And then she came and joined the community, the Not Alone community. 752 00:52:34,240 --> 00:52:38,200 And she went through all the stuff that we were talking about. 753 00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:39,200 We had a lot of sessions. 754 00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:41,920 We had a lot of stuff on mental health. 755 00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:47,080 And then I had a wonderful mentor who was actually leading this whole thing. 756 00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:52,880 And then she decided that she would take charge of her life. 757 00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:55,640 And she started an abacus class in Thule. 758 00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:58,520 So she's an entrepreneur. 759 00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:05,200 And she has more than 62 children now who actually do abacus with her. 760 00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:10,120 She's winning awards at a state level and at a district level. 761 00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:15,880 And she's talking on LinkedIn with the colleagues of her husband. 762 00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:19,240 And she is celebrating her victory there. 763 00:53:19,240 --> 00:53:24,960 So that's a real heartwarming story, Madhura. 764 00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:28,680 Because again, I think it's wonderful. 765 00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:32,200 Do you think it's down to the individual? 766 00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:35,160 Or do you think that there are some people who never give up? 767 00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:37,880 What does it finally add up? 768 00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:45,160 You know, I think the power of the community lends power to the individual. 769 00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:52,320 So the individual earlier was feeling very lonely and very alone and very shaken. 770 00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:57,200 Once they realize that they're not alone and there's an entire community around her, she 771 00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:02,600 automatically becomes far stronger and far more powerful. 772 00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:06,680 And she discovers that power within herself. 773 00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:09,560 Wonderful. 774 00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:14,080 This has been an illuminating conversation in more ways than one, Madhura. 775 00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:15,080 Thank you so much. 776 00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:16,440 Thank you for taking the time. 777 00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:23,120 And I think it's been a lovely story because I think you've bridged two entirely different 778 00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:31,120 banking where you're dealing with some of the richest and the most well-to-do people 779 00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:39,600 and then going to a set of people who lack even the basics in some of the. 780 00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:42,640 So more power to what you do. 781 00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:49,200 I hope that it really, you know, aspire for her meets millions of aspirations. 782 00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,200 And at the end of the day, that's the point of change. 783 00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:58,720 And I think that's where you're really focused and working to change. 784 00:54:58,720 --> 00:54:59,720 Thank you so much. 785 00:54:59,720 --> 00:55:01,160 Thank you, Venu. 786 00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:03,600 Thank you for being on the show. 787 00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:07,220 Okay, goodbye. 788 00:55:07,220 --> 00:55:16,080 That was Madhura Das Gupta from Aspire for Her, a banker who changed the course of her 789 00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:25,620 career to help the less privileged and to work for both diversity and inclusion. 790 00:55:25,620 --> 00:55:27,960 Thank you for listening. 791 00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:35,680 And we'll be back next week for our 25th episode where we're flipping the equation instead 792 00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:38,280 of people looking back on their lives. 793 00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:41,760 We are talking of what will happen in the future. 794 00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:49,720 And we are talking to three young people who are poised to make a major change in their 795 00:55:49,720 --> 00:55:50,720 life. 796 00:55:50,720 --> 00:55:59,720 Tune in next week and do subscribe and do let us know what you think of the episodes. 797 00:55:59,720 --> 00:56:00,880 Thank you. 798 00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:07,200 My first job, the podcast is a production from Ideascape Communications. 799 00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:14,040 Guest relations, promotions and creative is managed by Deepa Ravi with occasional support 800 00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:16,240 by Venu Gopal Nair. 801 00:56:16,240 --> 00:56:33,960 Archiving and technical help is provided by LPS Jayachandran.