Good afternoon. It's another Friday afternoon and we have another interesting guest.
Soumya Shankar Raman is the head of therapy and operations at TTK hospitals.
But she started out as a banker and during our conversation earlier,
she told me how there is still a stigma attached not just to people who have mental health issues,
but to doctors who want to practice it. It isn't a regular choice.
And for Soumya who started out as a banker and then moved into therapy,
it's been quite a journey and that's what we'll be exploring today.
So let me introduce, bring Soumya on board and begin the conversation from there.
Hi Soumya.
Hello sir.
Good to have you on the show.
Thank you.
It's wonderful to talk about what your life has been because conventional careers we are pretty familiar with.
But why don't you tell us what a typical day for you is like
and then we will go back to where it started and what are the things that happened.
Take it from there.
Okay. So I work with TTK Hospital which is a tea addiction center,
one of the first of its kind in India and it started 43 years back by our founder Dr. Shanti Ranganathan.
So I head the overall operations and the therapy here.
So when I enter, I don't, it's like every day is a different day.
It's not, you know, the usual and it's unpredictable.
So you do not know what is in store for you when you enter.
So sometimes I say it's quite entertaining at times because you know, it just keeps you, it's like what's next, right.
So my day starts with just to see what's happening.
I go on rounds to see what's happening and if everybody is comfortable.
And then we do have some problematic patients.
This is a rehab for drug and alcohol addiction.
So problematic patients.
There would be something, a note that is left that somebody's created some issue.
There is a family that is demanding or a family that needs some attention.
So I sort out all that and then we see the number of people who've come in for consultation.
I try and see that they cleared, they met soon and their waiting time is, I think.
So I also pitch in if the intake counselor is loaded and she has a lot of, a long waiting thing
because I don't want people waiting because this is a very, they're very fragile when they come seeking help.
And there can be a change of mind in a second, right.
They say, no, I don't want treatment.
So one, we don't want to lose them.
We don't want to lose that motivation.
So I clear whenever, you know, it's kind of thing.
I also speed patients and motivate them for treatment.
And of course, then the regular staff management in handling crisis, the staff, patients with the admin.
Like you said, that is the routine part of the job, which has to be done.
There is the paperwork, which irrespective of whichever job you're in, that is part and parcel of what you do.
Okay. So why don't we go back to your childhood and what was it like in your early years?
And what were you thinking about and, you know, where did it all begin?
So I've been predominantly been in Chennai though a few years in Delhi.
My father was in Delhi and I'm the eldest of three and I have always been the challenging one.
We have given my parents a very tough time when I would go missing.
I was basically a very, very handful one and most part of my years were in Chennai.
I used to like animals a lot, you know, any kitten, pigeon, crow.
So it used to be and I always thought I'd become a veterinary doctor.
But the biology bit and the science bit was too much for me.
I was not very academically oriented.
I was an average, sometimes below average student.
But what my father always identified in me was I was very a people's person.
I would find it very easy to connect to people and all that, but a very, so very selective.
But I think over a period of years, I kind of extroverted me kind of.
But yeah, came to the fore. OK. OK.
So what was college like? What did you do?
So I did two commerce in 11th and 12th and my father is into recruitment.
So he thought I would take on his ropes and I also thought I will.
And I did BBA and after BBA, it was only, you know, the plan was to do MBA.
I did cat preparation and everything.
And I always wanted to get into HR. OK.
I thought I wanted to get into HR and that's when MSSW went.
All that happened. So I applied for MSW, HR also in MSSW.
Meanwhile, a friend of mine told me that there's something in Stella MSW,
Stella, but not the HR specialization.
And I found medical and psychiatry very interesting.
And I applied and I got the admission also.
Meanwhile, I got an MSSW to the HR.
But I stuck on to medical and psychiatry.
And what helped me was my father was not in town.
So it was kind of. So I just.
So he couldn't influence you to change your.
He was traveling and I took that to my advantage.
And when he paid the fees, my mother didn't understand much of what was happening.
Just said I got it in Stella. I didn't tell her what specialization.
OK. But you had no idea what you defined the choice that is medical and psychiatry.
Did you know anything about what you were letting yourself in for?
I had no idea. I like to be of a catalyst, a change for people and kind of.
That's always excited.
And I do a lot of happiness to helping people and being there for them.
When I read through the course thing, it really helped me.
And, you know, as a teen, it's very exciting to be in a psychiatric setting
and being a psychiatric hospital and work with things.
That that's what interesting.
That's what it just did. What was the course itself like when you went through the course?
Did you find it met the expectations you had?
Yes. So it was two years. The first year was it was general.
Right. And where you go into they expose you to communities and the most of community work.
The second year is where you specialize in medical and psychiatry,
but placed in a psychiatric setting, a medical setting.
The first year is where the course you have three days of field work.
So you place you in a field under an NGO and you work.
There's a lot of learning on the job.
The first placement was Kasi made for me.
OK.
Not just fishermen and they're also the the underman for all all these thoughts.
So that place is notorious.
So that's where they placed me.
And I came from a very, very I would say orthodox, but all this was very new to them.
Vegetarian families can go to Kasi made and all that.
I think my father, he was he was very I mean, they were all angry.
Why? But the rebellion we kind of I think.
And of course, I did not share too much of information where.
So, yeah, I would go to Kasi made.
Initially, I found it very, very difficult with, you know, the fish all over.
And I just couldn't manage and all the other my friends are all nuns.
And so they were used to it.
And it took a while. But then I settled in very well there.
I made a lot of friends there.
So kind of I like that work in the community.
So what were you what are the kind of cases that you were seeing or what were the kind of problems that you were seeing?
So they did at that point.
Yeah, it was it was an urban slum.
So the more issues is domestic violence and again alcoholism and mostly these two and a lot of psychiatric issues among people.
And mostly it used to be domestic violence and addiction.
And so we also empower empowering women was one of our work, you know, the self-help groups and all that.
So that was the issues that we were seeing there.
So you're helping women handle how let's say if you know, if there was a domestic violence issue, what did the women need to do?
Or was it about telling them to, you know, find a way?
Yeah, find a way to kind of empower them because they would be dependent on the husband.
So alcoholism was rampant there.
And there was a lot of peddling and all that time, not much of drugs, but you know, whatever.
So we used to empower the women. So we used to teach them to make soap oil soaps, detergents and all that.
We used to go to Paris, buy raw material, come, ask them to make supply to those shops.
Some income generation, that tailoring. So all that kind of thing used to do.
So my work was predominantly with women there.
Right. OK. But you've got a sense of the environment and what this whole, you know, like you said, it is a very alien environment for you
because Kassimid is not typically the kind of neighborhood that people even they try to drive past or go past it very quickly,
even if they have to get past into that area.
But I guess at some point you understood then that it wasn't something that turned you off. You didn't.
It didn't. It didn't. Only except the fish part and the non-veg part.
This is again, it's not really.
It used to be like me, for a sari and for a teenager to be in a sari.
I feel we had to definitely wear a sari at home. And by the time I reached there, my sari used to be in different, you know, things.
So those people used to take me home. The women there tied it properly for me.
And so that it doesn't come out. So it was very nice.
They used to bake something for me to eat. And, you know, so much of love.
But they never understood the concept of vegetarian. So they.
I have to keep saying, I don't. Yeah.
Indian to them. What is that?
Yeah, they don't have a seat.
OK, wonderful. So what happened after you finished the course and then the second year was in a psychiatric setting instantly.
That medical setting. Oh, they really saw cases that was very disturbing, you know, very extreme cases.
It still interested me. But somewhere I always had this interest to work in the field of addiction.
And at that point, TTK was the only place where you could work and there were not many jobs.
So after I finished college, it was definitely I mean, it was a given that they would get me married in a year or two because I was the eldest.
And I wanted I started looking for jobs in NGOs and all that.
Father was very, very because, you know, there were a lot of misappropriation of funds with NGOs and all that.
So he was not very happy. Then I said, I wanted to work in the field of addiction.
You know, we are a very close knit family and everybody felt like it's unheard of in our families.
A girl going and working with addicts and it may affect her marriage proposals.
And I had a sister who's young. They took it to a different level.
There were not many jobs as well. And then so I just took whatever came by my way.
And I got into standard chartered bank banking, customer care.
I like training from there. Within a year, I also got married.
OK. And what was your husband's take on this whole thing?
You had told him at some point that this is what you want to just point between me and my husband.
So he is a relative.
So it just happened.
But when I told him that this is what I wanted to do after we got engaged and all that, there was just pin drop silence.
It was like I narrated some horror story and he didn't say anything.
He came back the next day and he said, I don't think you should pursue it because it may affect the mental health of our children or our thing.
Because you would be working with these people.
And I think all of them are mind laws and all. They were like a little taken aback.
Then I just got married.
OK, so let's all point between us.
You are obviously a person who's used to getting her way and knows her mind.
So that's a wonderful quality, because, you know, I think for people who really want to bring about change,
they can't let anyone else, no matter how close or how distant, dictate what should be done.
If you really want to the thing that it means putting up with a certain amount of strife and like you said, it is a sore point.
But at some stage, hopefully the thing.
But I can empathize and understand where they're coming from, because they think that.
It is really unheard of.
And he was like, what?
No, he was like, I was still 23, 24.
And he was almost five years old.
He was like, can we just take it on later, think about it later?
I don't know how this will impact our family.
It's not like I'm going to bring an alcoholic in the house.
I'm going to work there.
So.
OK, well, it's yeah, it almost yeah, sometimes I wonder what these because, you know, there are people who take this up, let's say,
NGOs who take up things which are fairly difficult to do for people who who look at it from the outside.
But for the people who are doing it, there's a sense of satisfaction.
There's a sense of saying that I am bringing about a change and changing a person.
Literally, you are bringing someone back from the brink of something or in cases where you're successful, which I think is a wonderful quality.
So then so you got into T.T.K. from there from standard.
No, no. After that, it was like I had my son and it just then I my father wanted me to join this business.
I joined it was a recruitment firm.
I joined. There's only fireworks between me and my father.
So we parted amicably after a couple of years.
And of course, I needed flexibility because of my son.
He was quite a challenge and a handful and required a lot of attention.
So I took up flexible jobs.
Then I took on training.
I said, OK, please, whatever I have, let me know.
And I took up more of training and I worked with the company in L.N.D.
rules, L.N.D., H.R., employment, employee engagement, employee welfare.
So I was there in 2000, 2016, 17.
I started feeling that I should get back to.
So I did a course to get back into this field, counseling.
Then I was going I mean, I was counseling.
I was associated with some colleges.
That's when T.T.K. happened.
They were looking at someone to kind of so T.T.K. was going through some kind of change.
Our founder had had retired and our managing trustee was there.
There was a little bit of turbulence.
So we so that's when I came into the picture.
It was an experimental role that I took on three days a week because people here,
the other therapists are much older to me.
These are people who probably taught me when I was in college.
They were accepting younger person and outsider as somebody who they have to report to.
But I managed three days a week.
Then it went on to be here.
Full time.
OK, OK, OK.
So I'm sure you come across a whole lot of different, you know,
there could be some situations at home which are similar.
But I suppose every case is unique in its own way as to what you know,
why people get down, walk down that road of addiction.
You also said that you used to see a lot of alcoholism when you went into Kasi Meethu,
but not too much of drugs. Has that changed?
Of course, that's changed after Covid itself.
Number of cases we are seeing there's been a lot of drugs into the society
and people taking on drugs very early.
So, you know, even minors starting off with drugs.
So is that the availability or is it that there's the mental state of the person?
What is your take on how people get addicted?
See, it starts with friends.
It starts, you know, with that one for fun.
And that's when it just sort of 10, 3 or 4 become dependent.
Right.
After Covid, when the task mark was shut during Covid,
I think people needed alternate sources to kind of get high or, you know, for their cravings.
And that's when the drug, it was easy to peddle through children in minors because they wouldn't get caught.
So that's how now it's like.
So you're seeing minors constitute one part of the people you patients, they are a fair…
They come in as an outpatient, but last month, you know, we announced an inpatient treatment for the minors.
And so, though we've not yet started getting because people are…
there is a lot of stigma, right, still.
And for a minor child to get admitted in a rehab, it is taking some time.
But we've already started working with juvenile homes where there is a lot of…
there is a background of addiction with the juvenile delinquent.
We've already started working with them.
Okay. So, I mean, this thing is in some of these cases, especially celebrities and some who, you know,
go through mental health issues or whatever, and rehab has become a kind of…
this thing has to… mal-adjusted people who've not managed to, you know…
whether it's the rigors of the job or the kind of lifestyle that they go into, what actually happens in rehab?
How do you… what happens?
So, rehab, yes, there are a lot of rehabs that are not, you know, they do not have the permit.
They are not, you know, there is no supervision or monitor.
But normally in a rehab that we follow, it's an evidence-based practice.
And in fact, we set examples and we formulate the standards of care for the country.
So, what happens is we only take in people who have the motivation to change and who are seeking help and who are willing to…
So, usually what happens is they go through a detoxification where their medical conditions are managed,
their withdrawals are managed, and then they move to a 21-day therapy or, you know, group therapy,
counseling and some re-educative sessions. We have supportive therapies like horticulture therapy
and music therapy, art, and we also have a therapy dog that comes in, animal-assisted therapy.
So, we kind of…
Okay. So, it's, you know, when you first saw it, when in your early days, when you said you were going three times a week,
what are the first impressions? What is it that first struck you about the place?
As the kind of patients I saw…
I always aspired to come in.
Right.
But when I came in, I could sense there was a lot of turbulence. There was a lot of unrest that was going on.
And in fact, our trustee, who I'm very close to now, and at that point when I looked at her, I was like just wondering,
is this going to even sustain? Because she also did not give me too much of hope that, you know, that I could…
She said, try it and see. Let's see how long we're able to last. That was the kind of message that I got from her.
But so I had all my options open when I came in here. I was still doing other projects and I didn't want to put all my eggs in one basket.
So, that's how. And then slowly we kind of managed to ease in with the team, gain their confidence and everything.
And we brought in…the trustee that I work with has been very encouraging.
And she's given me the freedom to, you know, bring in a lot of initiatives.
Because change…to bring in a lot of change is the same. That helped. The support from the trust.
Okay. So, Samir, take me through, let's say, without, of course, disclosing any of who the person is or identity.
Some of the cases which have made a mark on you as a person, where you felt that you changed or something within you was different after interacting or managing that person.
There are many, many…so, see, especially when…let me just start on a general note.
When I see the women bring in their husbands, right, they would have gone through so much of abuse, you know, domestic abuse at home.
But still, they don't give up on the husband. Sometimes, you know, you feel like shaking the woman and say, what are you doing with this man?
But, of course, I can't do that. But, you know, you can make out…I mean, there's no hope for this.
There are certain personalities, right? There are personality defects where this man is going to remain this way.
He is going to have this entitled behavior. But the woman would still be…she will never give up when she be at his best get called.
So, though sometimes, you know, you feel like…you feel…there are times that I've been very angry on that person saying, why are you with him?
I mean, what is in it for you? But then you understand that vulnerable situation that they're in.
Sometimes, I tell my husband also, I appreciate you better because…and you know, you're getting away with a lot of things because of the work that I do.
Yeah, because you're seeing extremes of human nature.
Right.
Okay. So, what is it that people are typically…it's because they are disappointed with the way life has treated them or is it simply that they are inclined?
You know, some of the addicts are simply…they get into that whole thing and then they are unable to get out.
They get into it and then they find reasons as to why they are in it. Right?
And then, after that, it becomes a dependence and it's beyond them where they are able to control. Even though sometimes they really want to.
And it is beyond them.
Okay. And then do people lapse back into…
Yes. The nature of this disease, addiction is a disease where relapse is very, very common.
Okay.
We also have a relapse management program and we prepare the families to face…we tell them, we empower them as to what they have to do if there is a relapse or a lapse. We empower the patients also.
Okay. So, is this typically because, let's say, they are getting back to the same environment? You mentioned horticulture therapy. You mentioned music therapy.
Now, is it that they don't have a chance to practice that when they come back or get…
No. It is also like to give them healthy alternatives that can be used as recreation. Right?
Now, when…for the family also undergoes therapy while the patient is undergoing therapy. So, for them also, we do horticulture.
So, to kind of nurture a plant for that three weeks, four weeks and associate their recovery to that, somewhere they start associating their recovery to nurturing the plant and we give it to them.
We ask them to take it home and they take care of the sapling. So, somewhere that is also therapeutic.
Art again with colors and all that. And then people who like music bring in lyrics that they are able to resonate with on life and all and they sing that and play with instruments.
That is, you know, gives them a lot of relaxation and of course, the therapy dog that comes is…
So, what does the therapy dog do?
So, the therapy dog, her name is Kip Labrador. So, when I came in, I wanted animal assisted therapy very badly and I…luckily, I mean, all these are initiatives that I brought in the other supportive therapies along with our trustee who is quite, you know, broad minded that way.
She is ready for change. She is about 68 years old but you know, the kind of…there is no resistance to any change. She is just open. So, I have learnt a lot from her.
So, that way when…so, that is when we started animal assisted therapy. So, the therapy dog comes…these are all rescue dogs.
So, the animal assisted therapist who comes relates their story from the rut to…from a rescue to a therapy dog, right?
And kind of in some way, we give that hope to our patients saying that you may have been…you are in this condition but there is still hope.
And then there are few exercises of grooming the dog that is also said to be therapeutic. The dog also plays with the ball and comes back to you.
And when they are sharing about their life, the dog goes and puts her paw on them and kind of…all that.
Oh, okay.
So, fingers crossed.
Yeah, I haven't…you know, but the moment you narrated something like this and then you said that…and this ties in beautifully with how you said you started early on, used to pick up everything from crows to birds to…
I still do.
You still do. I mean, so, that's like this nurturing, you know, approach has been…I think it's part of your nature which is why you are drawn towards it.
Yes.
So, and it's one of those qualities which, you know, everyone talks…this world talks of empathy and, you know, having to understand people. But I think you see the side of people that most others, either their own families are not willing to admit it, the patients themselves are not willing to admit it because it takes a long time.
I've known of people who have two, three drinks a day every day and he says, no, I'm not an alcoholic. I'm perfectly fine.
Yes, you're perfectly fine.
That whole…this thing of admitting is actually one of the biggest…
First of all, in high denial, right? And sometimes to break that denial is a challenge.
So, what do you do to break denial? What are the things that you have to…
My style, I don't confront. I never confront. I'm not comfortably confronting. But I go with the flow. I go with the flow and just keep listening and somewhere there will be a spark for me to hold on to and then start, you know, talking to them about the damages, possible damages that could be the family, right?
Because of the drinking. Like today we had one person who said, there's no issue. I earn in crores. I've given my wife this. But the wife is sobbing here.
But he's a guy who if I confront, even his ego will go, you know, he will go two notches up. So, I could be like, you know, smile and acknowledge what he said and then slowly…
Then when the wife started breaking down, he looked away. Then I said, you know, then I had to kind of work through the children. Children are always the sensitive areas. So, when I asked how are the children doing, that's what broke him.
So, when the daughter, you know, did not score well in her board because she's so worried about the father and when the wife narrated it, he started crying. So, you know, I kind of caught on to that point and he has agreed for admission.
Wow.
So, each one will have a sore point. You just have to be like, you know, to catch on.
Figure out what exactly it is. And you know, this thing that you just said that confrontational, this whole thing of advisory, there are these people who will come and tell you, oh, but do this and you will instantly stop. It's not easy.
It's not easy.
Because in something as simple as craving for sweets…
Right. Yeah.
We are all addicted to different things in life, except that some are far more damaging than some of the things that we do.
You know, it's just that some of those don't have as much of a life-changing condition as, you know, some of the problems that people have to do.
So, how do they manage to get them to the place first? How do families actually arrive there?
The damages, you know, sometimes we know when people walk in and they're in denial still, they go back saying, I don't have a problem. We know that the person is going to come back in a matter of months because the damages will only increase.
It could be health-wise, it could be psychological, it could be in the family, it could be at work. So, when the damages in the states are high, that's when they come. Stakes get higher.
Okay. It's a very sad descent, right? So, in terms of when you see it, when you… It's hard not just on the person, but on the… all the people who are with them.
Yes, that's why we say addiction is a family disease. So, we treat the family, not only the person, because the wife, the spouse goes through a lot of… exhibits a lot of psychological disturbance when they are associated and when they're living with an addict, right?
So, that's why we work with the family also. They also go through therapy.
Okay. So, then what is the issue in most cases? Is it violence? Is it behavior which is erratic? What is the…
It's the behavior, it's the emotional abuse in most cases that the wife goes through. And then, of course, there are financial damages where they sell off everything and very poor judgment of financial decisions. All that happens.
Okay. Okay. No, it's a… It's one of the things where if you're a bystander, if you're on the outside, then it looks as if people can get their life in order. But I think to the people who are in the middle, it's almost like being caught in some kind of a thunderstorm.
That's right. And it just keeps going down and down. Sometimes they hit rock bottom and then they have nothing to do, no other things to do and the only way out is treatment. So, people come in like that as well.
Wow. That's actually a far more, you know, difficult situation to emerge from rather than if it's early on where they still have finances and they can get back to some kind of…
Only about 20, 20 or 30 percent come like that. Otherwise, it's mostly the rock bottom cases, you know, where the stakes are high, they've lost a job or the wife is separated, the wife is gone away.
So, that's when they come as a, you know, as no other option when they come seeking. Okay. So, over the last 15, 20 years, has the number of patients increased dramatically from the people that you talked to or what has been the trend?
I would say per se has increased, but number of people seeking treatment has decreased. One is because there are many other… Earlier, TTK was the only hospital. Now, there are many other small centers. So, people prefer going there.
There are psychiatrists treating. So, they go there. But per se, I've got addiction to substances has increased, right? Because of drugs and now prescription drugs, people take… youngsters take on painkillers.
They buy over the counter and that's another war that we see. Okay. Okay. So, like you said, each kind of addiction is different.
So, people taking painkillers, is it more of a kind of intoxication? Is it… Yes. What exactly is…
So, they take in painkillers like crevadol, painkillers used for labor pains and all that and it kind of keeps them high. Okay.
They have bloodshot eyes and more youngsters take on to it or they dilute it and inject it. Okay. Okay.
I got this is literally having to see a different set of… and okay, what your husband had told you early on that you're going to be spending time with people like this practically the whole day.
So, at the end of a day, what gives you hope? What gives me? Hope or how do you maintain a kind of equilibrium or is that something that comes by nature?
That is there because one thing is we learn to disconnect. We are taught to disconnect. Right?
But of course, there are one or two cases that shake you like I'm… my son is a 16-year-old. Right? And when I meet teenagers and all that, somewhere it chucks me inside when I see boys that age.
Last week, I'd gone to the juvenile observation home. My son was out trekking and he was having the time of his life.
And I just got off a call from him and he said, can you give me 1000 rupees? Can you send it to GP? I want to go to a food court.
I said 1000 rupees for one meal and I just said, I think, you know, it's a bit much. He said, no, I may need another 500 also.
And I just laughed it off and think, but when I entered and I see boys age in a juvenile home sitting with plates, it just broke my heart. I mean, I was like, look at life. Right?
So, sometimes that happens, but we learn to kind of disconnect. So, we learn to kind of disconnect and…
So, burnout is very common in our profession. So, we also like go on trips, vacation. I take my team out.
So, we just disconnect. Even as a team, they go out with families also, but as a team also, we take that time off and go out.
That's something that I started, practice that I started. So, we also kind of learn to do things.
No, you're like, you know, to put it in a this thing, you're like the pressure cooker valves. Literally, as far as society is concerned, this is something they aren't even aware of. And these days, I'm saying you can even keep…
Earlier, you had this thing where you were traveling in a vehicle and a beggar came close. They could reach out. They were very close.
But today, if you travel in a car with the windows up, you don't even… You know, it's like you live in your bubble and that bubble never breaks.
It's almost as if you're moving from one safe bubble to the next one. So, for someone like you who has opted, you've actually… I think you're doing a marvelous…
Though you can say that this is a passion and the saying I accept that, but I think it's wonderful to have people who understand that this is a job that needs to be done as opposed to, you know…
Yeah, I'll… You know, compared to this, the stress of doing the regular job seems almost…
No, I think when, you know, he is in IT and when we compare our salaries, I say, I mean, this is world-small fair.
You're all, you know, with programming and all that and we deal with lights. And, you know, that's why I think many of them even…
Because to be open, the financial thing is not much in social work with entry-ins.
But still people choose to come here because of the passion, right? But many of them are not able to because they can't make that choice, because they can't afford to, you know.
So, if you see the number of social work students passing out, like I went to banking, right? But the number taking in social work is less. They move to corporate jobs.
I mean, mainly because of the financial… Yeah, yeah. No, you're 100%. I mean, I'm saying teachers, people working in this, in the profession that you're in, are not…
This is not the top scale. And very often, I think it's related. It's… I think in every… Practically in every business, there is this whole thing of who's doing the work and who's earning the most.
There's a huge imbalance. There doesn't seem to be a real… And I don't think that there is an easy way out for any of this.
Now, look at policemen. You know, they're seeing crime and they're having to deal with being in situations which are not just dangerous, but could be life-threatening at certain points.
But it is not one of those jobs which… So, I guess somewhere the motivations are very different. And what we see in a job and what people see typically in a job are so different when you compare professions that it's not easy to just draw a line and then say that, you know, this is how it's done.
Okay. So, how do you see this? You know, as far as you're concerned, you're perfectly happy with the kind of work that you're doing. How do you think that things will… What do you see going forward? What are the things that you would like to do or change about therapy?
Therapy… There are a lot of new… New concepts in therapy which I keep asking my team to upgrade themselves, speed up and so that is there. But we're also lobbying… doing a lot of work with the government now. Lobbying in for the change, suggesting things. That is very exciting to be working with the government and earlier…
What are you lobbying for? What are the things… What are the issues that you're…
For minors, addiction centers for minors. Bringing in more exclusive therapy for minors, for addiction, for women and pushing in for more evidence-based therapies and all that. We're trying to set up location-specific de-addiction centers for the government. So, that is a lot of work. I mean, it's quite interesting.
Yes, very true. The mix of patients, is it more male or female?
More of male because of the stigma again here. Chennai especially has a very culturally… Women reaching out for help less. So, addiction is quite rampant, especially prescription drugs of the content.
That's the… Yeah, and this is a Western import. One of the things which has become pretty difficult at the same time.
Okay. What about the social classes? Is it more from the lower class, the lower socioeconomic class?
From a not-a-driver to a businessman, celebrities of course we don't really jump in when celebrities reach out because for us it's very difficult to manage celebrities in here because their confidentiality is reached and the others will be more…
And with celebrities we can't give them that exclusive separate treatment. But we do give them a personal counseling session.
And then, okay, but in their case, what is it? Is it a feeling of alienation? What are the kind of things that celebrities seem… Is it the same? It's exactly the same?
I feel very sad when I work with celebrities because when you see them and you know their life, people always aspire for a celebrity.
All of us are starstruck but to go in and peek into their challenges and their life, they just are in a situation where they can't go front, back and on. They are caught in a web and it is very difficult to kind of help them through it.
Okay, because there are several dependencies.
Dependencies and then the kind of their work, the kind of challenges they have, the stress, the demands and of course the public image.
They can't really seek help for any physical ailments, yes, but when it is… even physical ailments, they are very, very wary about seeking. They have the doctors come in.
But like a commoner, you can just walk into any… for any counseling they can never do. So it's always in an unclosed location that we meet. It's like that.
Yeah, and you're seeing them in a way, like you said, you're starstruck when you see the glamour magazines and the interviews on television where they seem to be the center point of the world and suddenly when you see them as scared…
Vulnerable.
Vulnerable. Yeah, yeah, it's quite a… and that's the other part that I suppose one of the things about advertising is that you tend to see people before the makeup and after the makeup.
Because when they come for a shoot, you… and sometimes when you see the photographs that you've, you know, made the decision on and when the person walks in, it's almost as if, was this the person that…
That's right. Every celebrity that I work with, I only end up feeling very sad for their situation and you end up thinking nobody should ever have that kind of… that they're into. And you wonder like, was he or was she the one that I saw on TV and look at her now. Vulnerable.
Yeah. And this is the one part that never comes out. It's almost as if, you know, these media… yeah. Media stories will make references, they will drop hints, but no one wants this thing to come out into the open because there's so much riding on that image.
It's like you've created this whole, you know, image that shouldn't be destroyed. It shouldn't be sullied. And I suppose the people who work in the business and you who see the other side of that vulnerability know exactly what is involved.
So that's very… so what are the… I was very… I found the whole thing about you using dogs as therapy. So what are some of the new breakthroughs that are coming in or what are some of the new things that you're trying out in terms of trying to break the cycle?
The other… like all these supportive therapies are new, which I brought in after I came in and we experimented. Music is one that they all like, especially the women, the spouses. They just wait for the music therapist to come in. They love it.
You should see them singing and with the therapy, the lyrics that they… in a way, it will be MGR's part. MGR's songs and all that. So it's nice. It's like that sisterhood amongst them and they will be together.
So sometimes you wonder, is it companionship and a sense of normalcy that seems to define this… you know, I mean the point…
Here when the other wives, they all get together, they go out shopping and it's nice. They kind of support each other. It's nice to see and they love to be here.
Initially, they'll say, I'll stay only for four days, five days, but then they'll stay on because of the company here and we have children also. Sometimes I love the child also to stay on because both the parents are here and the child may be uncomfortable.
The mother may also be very restless without the child. So I love children also to stay on. So sometimes my room is like a crush. They all just walk in and they're sitting here, sitting there, sitting here, sitting there, but then it's nice to have them around.
Yeah, and they do this. So one thing that I'm very particular and I tell my counselors and my team is treat them like a normal… we don't treat them as an addict in society and somebody who's put down…
It's like somebody who has a shoe like if he had diabetes or if he had another medical condition, how would you treat him? You have to treat him like that. Respect his profession, respect his experience, respect his background. We never talk down to them. So we kind of give them that.
Yeah, and that's definitely one of the reasons why people stay on, I think, because if they felt that they were being patronized or they were being made an example of, then it would work counter to everything that…
Like you're saying one of the things is loneliness, companionship, a sense of normalcy which people tend to take for, you know, the smallest pleasures in life are not what people… they somehow seem to think that happiness is some major thing that happens, but very often it's in the very small things that you…
Yeah, so yeah, that's why all these therapies we tell so that they discover other options and not… earlier drinking used to give them happiness, so we're trying to help them explore what else that they…
Okay, okay. No, it's… I think what you do is not just admirable, but essential and like, you know, teachers show the way to how a future can be attained. You're actually course correcting.
You're saying, okay, there may be people who are straight, but we are figuring out ways to bring them back to a life which is more meaningful for them and to find meanings in the… Pardon me?
Help them, you know, get another chance to live, right? It's not like it's not over.
Exactly. No, this has been… it's been so inspirational talking to you, Saman, because I… you know, I was actually wondering how do you go about these things and when we started the podcast, we were trying to see how we could talk to as wide a cross section of professions as possible rather than, you know, these stereotypical definitions of success and what people need to do.
So, I have spoken to people who have done yoga instruction and then we talked to an archaeologist. We talked to Dr. Srinivasan of Jeevan Blood Bank.
So, we have… I think the really interesting part is how each person finds a kind of loadster and you are the rebel. You figured out how things were and I'm so glad that you stayed and I'm sure that every single one of patients you've helped and the families you've helped, not just the patients,
would have a silent prayer for you every day of their lives because it means that you got them back into the process of living which I think is a marvelous…
Sometimes I feel more than me, it's the counsellors who are at the grassroot level, right, who are like struggling with them day in and day out and I'm more on the… on more decision making than the firefighting and all that.
When I look at them, it's like for them it's day in and day out. I think I'm there all around. They give me a lot of… I draw a lot of inspiration from them.
From them, okay. But again, they are part of your team and they obviously look up to you for, you know, an understanding and for realizing where this whole thing can go.
So, thank you for doing what you do, Samir. It was wonderful talking to you and it was great knowing how much of a difference you make with the simple act of listening to people and getting them back on track. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you for this platform, sir. I mean it is very interesting.
Please, please.
And your last words by… is very… is really charming.
Thank you. Thank you very much and it's wonderful to have you as a guest on the show and I hope lots of people see the episode and draw inspiration from what you are doing.
We have an internship program. So, a lot of young kids are coming in, lot of boys and it's very, very, you know, it's a very… it's very refreshing to see young boys coming into this field.
Otherwise, it's mostly women oriented, right? Women-documented and asking a lot of questions and it's not like they have taken it because they don't have an option.
They have given percent. It's very, very promising to see young boys here. So, we run internship programs and we mentor and I think we are going on the right path.
Great. I hope you succeed and grow from strength to strength and manage to keep this in check because this is a problem that affects all of us, even if you are on the front lines fighting it.
Thank you so much. Thank you, sir.
That was Soumya and what a story and what a life and what a career.
I think we come across professions like these where they make such a huge difference to the lives of people simply by doing what to them is their job.
So, join us next week for another session and another profession. Subscribe to the episode so that you can catch it every Friday at 3.
My first job, the podcast is a production from Ideascape Communications. Guest relations, promotions and creative is managed by Deepa Ravi with occasional support by Venu Gopal Nair.
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