1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:17,520
Aparna Chandrasekhar has trained tens of thousands of people for IT companies in India.

2
00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:23,520
It's a skill that came to the fore when newly minted Indian companies had to scale rapidly

3
00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:30,120
to meet the new opportunities that opened up in the early 2000s from US outsourcing.

4
00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:36,120
Her linguistic abilities that served her well as a grammar teacher came handy for neutralizing

5
00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,640
regional accents and she found her purpose.

6
00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:44,940
She went on to manage client roles and responsibilities for revenue generation.

7
00:00:44,940 --> 00:00:50,020
And then she found that being a coach and helping successive generations is what she

8
00:00:50,020 --> 00:00:51,400
enjoys the most.

9
00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:57,200
Listen to how a career defined by a trend created careers that changed the lives of

10
00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:58,880
thousands in India.

11
00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:05,780
This is episode 16 of My First Job, the podcast that covers engaging career journeys.

12
00:01:05,780 --> 00:01:10,240
And every single one is full of twists, turns and insights.

13
00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:17,440
My name is Venu Gopal Nair, and the host of the podcast and CEO of Ideascape Communications,

14
00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:22,120
an advertising agency into branding, creative and design.

15
00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:26,280
So settle in, sit back and enjoy the conversation.

16
00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:28,520
Aparna, welcome to the show.

17
00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:29,520
Thank you.

18
00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:30,520
Thank you.

19
00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:34,880
I'm sure that as a trainer, as a facilitator and as the number of programs that you've

20
00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:41,860
conducted, you obviously had ways of starting a session which get you into this fray.

21
00:01:41,860 --> 00:01:42,860
So we'll start there.

22
00:01:42,860 --> 00:01:49,080
I think the facilitators trick is to actually arrive way early before anybody but the security

23
00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:50,760
people were around even.

24
00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,160
Sometimes they let you into the room so you know what the room is like, but greeting each

25
00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:55,800
one as they come in.

26
00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,780
But that's helped because by the time we start the session, there are five or six familiar

27
00:01:59,780 --> 00:02:00,780
faces already.

28
00:02:00,780 --> 00:02:03,660
When you say, hi, I'm from here and they're already nodding.

29
00:02:03,660 --> 00:02:07,600
And then I say, like Pradeep said here, and you can already see the smiles.

30
00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:11,760
So my go to line there when I bring in names is Sholay.

31
00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:16,000
In there, there is a dialogue where Amitabh Bachchan asks Hema Malini, she says,

32
00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:17,680
What is your name, Basanti?

33
00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:21,000
Because she starts every sentence with Basanti does this, Basanti does that.

34
00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,960
By the time the program begins, I know Pradeep, Leena, Rajesh, at least five of them.

35
00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:26,960
That's been my trip.

36
00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,000
That's a wonderful way of establishing.

37
00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:34,000
They see you one on one and get a chance to interact with you right to the point when

38
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,000
they come in.

39
00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:36,000
So you're putting them at ease.

40
00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:40,880
And I think this is one of those wonderful insights which seemed simple on the face of

41
00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:41,880
it.

42
00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:46,600
But it's not so simple until you actually see the effect that it has on the sessions

43
00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:47,600
that you conduct.

44
00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:53,420
But let's go back to how your career started and evolved to where it is today.

45
00:02:53,420 --> 00:02:56,160
You grew up in Baroda, Bombay and Baroda.

46
00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,520
We lived very close to the other railway station in my very, very early years.

47
00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:04,200
I think I shocked my parents by saying I wanted to become an engine driver.

48
00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:08,640
I don't know whether they really took me seriously, but I could see the look of horror on their

49
00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:09,640
faces.

50
00:03:09,640 --> 00:03:11,440
I was nonchalant about it.

51
00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:16,640
I saw this big thing, powerful, and I saw the driver as this person who had power and

52
00:03:16,640 --> 00:03:19,400
capacity to take people to their destination.

53
00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:20,760
I mean, this would change every day.

54
00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:25,000
So it would be a doctor when I saw a doctor in action, an actor when I saw someone, a

55
00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:26,000
trapeze artist.

56
00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:30,040
It just went through the whole gamut until I had a fabulous English teacher.

57
00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,520
She was such a kind person in addition to doing her work.

58
00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,820
And I suddenly wanted to speak like her, look like her, be an English teacher.

59
00:03:37,820 --> 00:03:40,320
I think my parents breathe the big sigh of relief.

60
00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:44,960
While I had the marks to go into medicine and engineering, I actually happily went into

61
00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:45,960
literature.

62
00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,800
So my parents had to come and tell my teachers that I was doing this out of choice.

63
00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,560
What are the kinds of things that were then going through your mind where you would go

64
00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:54,560
next?

65
00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:59,480
So completely aimless, had no idea about a career in mind.

66
00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:00,880
I knew I wanted to teach English.

67
00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,900
I didn't even know who I wanted to teach English to, whether it was very young kids, whether

68
00:04:04,900 --> 00:04:06,480
it was older adults.

69
00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:07,760
I didn't know what it was.

70
00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:08,760
So I finished my graduation.

71
00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,740
I got married, came to Bangalore, studied here.

72
00:04:11,740 --> 00:04:14,640
And then I knew that I wanted to be a college teacher.

73
00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:16,760
I wanted to go on and do a PhD.

74
00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:21,760
I actually did very well and got a gold medalist, both at undergraduate and postgraduate levels.

75
00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:25,560
Everybody kind of expected to say, okay, she's going to go on to do her PhD.

76
00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:26,560
But I didn't.

77
00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:28,280
There was a stop gap arrangement.

78
00:04:28,280 --> 00:04:30,040
Somebody had gone on maternity leave.

79
00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:31,920
My MA results were not out.

80
00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,080
They said, look, we are desperate for an English teacher.

81
00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,000
Can you please fill in for her?

82
00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:41,240
And that's where I went into teaching engineering students and I had to teach them English.

83
00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,360
I was three years, maybe four years older than the students.

84
00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:48,840
I tried to wear a bindi, wear heels, look taller, bigger, all of those.

85
00:04:48,840 --> 00:04:50,480
That's where there was a very amusing story.

86
00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:55,240
The person was a cop in a very busy intersection, waved my car and stopped it.

87
00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,060
And those days they used to stand on a pedestal kind of a thing.

88
00:04:58,060 --> 00:05:02,120
So he got off the pedestal and I was wondering and what I had done wrong.

89
00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,840
I had, but anyway, I stalked out of respect because he flagged me down.

90
00:05:04,840 --> 00:05:06,840
He came in and said, don't you know me?

91
00:05:06,840 --> 00:05:09,360
And I was really upset because I didn't know who he was.

92
00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:10,360
I said, I'm so sorry.

93
00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:11,800
He said, Oh, don't be sorry, madam.

94
00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:12,800
You taught me English.

95
00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,160
I just gave the huge sigh of relief.

96
00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,560
And as I was driving from there, he just stopped the rest of the traffic.

97
00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:19,560
All eyes were on me.

98
00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:23,520
Literally when he waved his little Maruti car saying you carry on.

99
00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:27,480
So I'll never forget that because sometimes you wonder the rewards of being a teacher

100
00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,280
don't really come in the expected places.

101
00:05:30,280 --> 00:05:32,240
They come in the most unexpected of places.

102
00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:36,920
Teachers I've realized are among the most influential people that you didn't know.

103
00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,680
They tend to have, especially when they're teaching little classes, their parents are

104
00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:45,600
in positions of power and the teacher is always seen as somebody who makes a big difference

105
00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:47,280
to the lives of people.

106
00:05:47,280 --> 00:05:49,480
You taught there for how long?

107
00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:50,480
Very funny story.

108
00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:54,400
I mean, I literally did two jobs in Bangalore on Palace Road.

109
00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:56,480
There are two colleges opposite each other.

110
00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,000
There's Maharani's college and there's home science college.

111
00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,720
But I actually taught all substitutes because jobs were not easy to come by.

112
00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:04,120
I had just got my results.

113
00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:05,120
I was not from here.

114
00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:06,600
I didn't speak a word of Kannada.

115
00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:08,760
So all these were loaded against me.

116
00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:09,960
Somehow I just managed.

117
00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,680
I did two classes here, crossed the road, went over to the other side and did two other

118
00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:20,280
classes and all for a royal sum of I think 400 rupees in each college.

119
00:06:20,280 --> 00:06:22,000
This was 1986.

120
00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:26,040
But the beautiful part was when you took a bus and came there in majestic, there were

121
00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:30,200
these old booksellers and they sat there and they sold used books.

122
00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:35,460
I lived like a princess because I had, I think I picked up the whole collection of Somerset

123
00:06:35,460 --> 00:06:41,400
mom and everything for some 25 rupees or 50 rupees or something that few hundred rupees

124
00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:42,400
still afforded me.

125
00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,000
So it was amazing.

126
00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,280
So no complaints there and it was great fun.

127
00:06:46,280 --> 00:06:50,000
Just across the road, the quality of the students and everything was so different.

128
00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,080
I had to switch gears later when I went from one place to the other.

129
00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,520
Then I found a job and went to Jyothi Nivas College.

130
00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:59,520
This was a girls college and strangely they had their gates locked.

131
00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:01,200
So only women were allowed inside.

132
00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,960
I became very popular with my husband's friends who all wanted to pick me up.

133
00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:06,600
So you can imagine why.

134
00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:12,800
So that was good fun because this college had everything from PUC to graduation to post

135
00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:13,800
graduation.

136
00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:15,400
I went in with stars in my eyes.

137
00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,560
The big thing was I said, I have to make a difference.

138
00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:19,720
Oh, initially you do all the donkey's work.

139
00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:23,080
You really don't make a difference or don't get to make a difference yet.

140
00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:27,760
I was literally doing what everybody else did not want, which was grammar and all of

141
00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,400
the stuff that one has to do.

142
00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:32,200
It's like a visit to the dentist.

143
00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:33,760
So that's what I got.

144
00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:34,760
So I enjoyed myself.

145
00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,080
I was just very happy being with students.

146
00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:41,480
Then they introduced a post-graduation course and this was fantastic because they had works

147
00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,200
of people like Girish Karnad, Shashi Deshpande.

148
00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:45,800
You didn't find anything on there.

149
00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:50,040
So I suddenly was on my own and again, nobody wanted this because there was no literary

150
00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:51,160
work on them.

151
00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,840
I was quite happy to do that, just like an easy flow.

152
00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,440
Had fantastic students, did some fantastic stuff there.

153
00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,620
Got to meet a lot of people who came in as guests.

154
00:08:01,620 --> 00:08:05,240
I was like a permanent one of the emcees in college.

155
00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:11,040
So my high point there was meeting Rakesh Sharma, astronaut and movie stars and whoever

156
00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:17,440
else they called as an emcee, you get to really hobnob with them and have tea with them.

157
00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,320
Those were all the perks of being, I think, a teacher then.

158
00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:24,680
Really strangely, after 12 years of teaching and I wasn't even bored, I was very happy

159
00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,720
and suddenly somebody brought this advertisement to me and said, doesn't it look like it's

160
00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:29,760
been written for you?

161
00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:34,400
They wanted somebody with a linguistics literature background who was a language specialist.

162
00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:36,240
And what did they want the person to do?

163
00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:40,760
Take away people's mother tongues and help them understand the American accent.

164
00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:42,800
And I had studied all of these theoretically.

165
00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:47,040
I had no personal experience except for all the movies that I'd watched.

166
00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:48,760
Went in for an interview for a lag.

167
00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,320
So this was at a very glamorous place called ITPL.

168
00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,520
And in those days, it was like far away, Whitefield.

169
00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:55,960
It was like one of the modern tech parks.

170
00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:57,640
Those days, they were just coming up.

171
00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:03,520
So it had marble corridors, multiple elevators and cafeterias and it looked like a little

172
00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,960
bit of mall, fountains, the works.

173
00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,120
So I went for the fun of it and I sailed to the interview.

174
00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:13,920
And the next thing I knew was the HR person is asking me, would you like to join us?

175
00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:15,760
What kind of a salary are you expecting?

176
00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,360
And that's when I realized that I hadn't even thought about it.

177
00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:19,800
Everything was better than college anyway.

178
00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,600
So I went in there and I went in as a training manager.

179
00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:27,520
And when we talk about first job, in the real world, I would say that was my first job.

180
00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,160
I would say college was a breeze.

181
00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,680
I was a little more than a student just meandering along nicely.

182
00:09:32,680 --> 00:09:36,480
And suddenly there was this whole new world where you had targets.

183
00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:40,120
I had not heard the word appraisal, performance appraisal.

184
00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:44,280
I had not even heard it until I came into first ring, which was the first job that I

185
00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:45,280
had.

186
00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:46,840
And when they said that, I said, I'm sorry, what's that?

187
00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,560
And they looked at me very, very strangely to say, where has she come from?

188
00:09:50,560 --> 00:09:51,560
Okay.

189
00:09:51,560 --> 00:09:56,120
So because all the others who were my counterparts and colleagues had come from the corporate

190
00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,440
world, I was the only one who was in a mission.

191
00:09:58,440 --> 00:09:59,760
So it was good fun.

192
00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,280
What also was fun was the pace at which we worked in college.

193
00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,360
When we decide on an idea, we would say, hey, well, let's do it.

194
00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,520
And that meant, you know, two months later, six months later, maybe next year, next academic

195
00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:12,760
year here now meant now.

196
00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,320
So for me, that was like a moment of reckoning.

197
00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:20,120
Do you remember some of those things that you implemented where now meant now?

198
00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:21,240
Lots of them actually.

199
00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,800
So learning, keeping your ears and eyes open.

200
00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:28,760
I would not open my mouth until I was fairly confident of what I was saying because everything

201
00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:30,160
was so new.

202
00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:34,360
Everybody else seemed in comparison so much more with it and knowledgeable.

203
00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:35,920
So I was green behind it.

204
00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,040
So I was like this Ustad in college.

205
00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,660
Somebody who taught for many years, subject matter expert and all of that.

206
00:10:41,660 --> 00:10:44,040
And in this new place, you were the newbie.

207
00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:45,200
Nobody made me feel that.

208
00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:49,560
I think I felt it myself, but the one big thing I learned, the one life lesson that

209
00:10:49,560 --> 00:10:50,640
I learned there.

210
00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:55,840
So I complained to the HR person about the kind of people that were coming into training.

211
00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,940
I think he was a little miffed because I was responsible for training people and making

212
00:10:59,940 --> 00:11:01,600
sure they were ready for the job.

213
00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:02,680
And I complained about that.

214
00:11:02,680 --> 00:11:04,480
So I think he meant it sarcastically.

215
00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,520
And at that point, I was completely oblivious to it.

216
00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:09,520
He said, why don't you try hiring them?

217
00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:11,360
And me being me, I said, yeah, sure.

218
00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:15,680
So the next thing I knew I was devising newer tests, getting in better quality people.

219
00:11:15,680 --> 00:11:19,280
In hindsight, I realized that he must have meant that as a challenge to say back off.

220
00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:20,720
And I didn't pick that up at all.

221
00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:24,280
So that was one big thing that I learned to say, hey, if you really want something, go

222
00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:28,180
for it and don't let other people decide what you can or cannot do.

223
00:11:28,180 --> 00:11:29,840
Maybe you don't have the qualifications for it.

224
00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,020
I had been doing tests and designing tests forever.

225
00:11:33,020 --> 00:11:36,000
So for me, it was like a logical progression.

226
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,960
Other big thing was working face to face or very, very close proximity to Americans.

227
00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:42,520
I had an American boss.

228
00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:47,040
I would not say no naturally because I came from a large joint family.

229
00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:48,360
I was one of the younger ones.

230
00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:52,520
It was more of a cultural home thing where saying no didn't come naturally.

231
00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,040
At the workplace in college, you really didn't get a choice.

232
00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:56,720
It was more hand me down.

233
00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:57,880
People say, hey, this had to be done.

234
00:11:57,880 --> 00:11:58,880
You had to do it.

235
00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,880
In this place, almost every Friday evening, my boss would come to me and ask me to do

236
00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:04,080
something additional.

237
00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,720
And every time I was just kind of gearing up to go home, there would be additional work.

238
00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,460
And every Friday, I ended up extending myself and sitting there.

239
00:12:11,460 --> 00:12:14,520
One day I decided I was designing a course on assertion.

240
00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:15,520
How do you like that?

241
00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:20,540
While I was reading all the course material, I said, it's so easy for me to say all this.

242
00:12:20,540 --> 00:12:22,800
How about practicing it a little bit?

243
00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:24,880
And that Friday, I was gearing up.

244
00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,540
I said, okay, now when she comes and asks me, I am going to say no.

245
00:12:28,540 --> 00:12:33,160
So she came truly enough Friday 3.30 or so and said, hey, Aparna, can you do this for

246
00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:34,160
me?

247
00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,680
And I said, sorry, no, I won't be able to do it because I'm doing this, this, this.

248
00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:40,680
And I was waiting with bated breath to see what's going to happen.

249
00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:42,140
Is something going to explode?

250
00:12:42,140 --> 00:12:43,840
Is the ceiling going to fall on me?

251
00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,600
She turned on her heel and said, okay, and went away.

252
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,860
It was such a let down for me, you know, to say, oh my God, this is it.

253
00:12:50,860 --> 00:12:51,860
This is the consequence.

254
00:12:51,860 --> 00:12:56,400
So I learned to say no and not worry about consequences there.

255
00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:01,120
And I keep thinking about it now to say, had I done that before, so much would have been

256
00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:02,120
different.

257
00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:03,120
Yeah.

258
00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,100
It was like a eureka moment for me.

259
00:13:05,100 --> 00:13:10,960
I was worried and terribly, terribly happy at the same time, you know, to say I've discovered

260
00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,520
a magic formula and this is right here with me.

261
00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:18,760
Again, this assertion is let's take this between cultures.

262
00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:23,240
You did this to the American boss and you said no, and that worked.

263
00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:27,900
But if you did that in the Indian context, would it have worked as well?

264
00:13:27,900 --> 00:13:30,220
So in college, we didn't really get a chance to say no.

265
00:13:30,220 --> 00:13:34,920
You couldn't say no, because all work came from the higher ups and they were not up for

266
00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:36,600
discussion or negotiation.

267
00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,760
But somebody who was senior most really took a stand and said, this is it.

268
00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:41,960
And after that, there was no more revisiting.

269
00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,680
So I wonder what it would have been like if I had had an Indian boss.

270
00:13:45,680 --> 00:13:49,400
But I thought of it the other way, you know, I actually thought I was doing fantastically

271
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:50,400
well.

272
00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,880
I didn't even practice on an Indian family member or anything like that and tried it

273
00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,120
directly at the big boss.

274
00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:58,000
I was very happy with that.

275
00:13:58,000 --> 00:13:59,800
What about the training itself?

276
00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:03,720
What is the difference that you found when you said you were unhappy with the training

277
00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,080
and you came up with a series of tests?

278
00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,320
What were some of the things that you changed?

279
00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,080
Grammar and all of that.

280
00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,520
See, most people can speak well.

281
00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,000
The trouble is when they have to write.

282
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,040
Because this was a contact center, they all had to speak.

283
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:22,680
People were being failed on skills that they were not going to be using at all.

284
00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:28,360
I don't think people need to know whether it's a past participle or a dangling adverb

285
00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:29,360
or anything like that.

286
00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:33,580
I think they really need to be able to use it and they need to be able to figure out.

287
00:14:33,580 --> 00:14:37,200
So there were some hilarious stories from the contact center there.

288
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:42,400
So we used to teach people to say things in multiple ways, just in case the customer didn't

289
00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:43,400
understand.

290
00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,480
So of course, as Indians, we taught them to slow down.

291
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,320
It wasn't necessary to speak in an American accent.

292
00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:55,060
It was more important to highlight the right words, stress on them kind of a thing.

293
00:14:55,060 --> 00:14:57,960
So we had some hilarious experiences.

294
00:14:57,960 --> 00:14:59,740
This was for a credit card company.

295
00:14:59,740 --> 00:15:02,740
So he had to capture the customer's date of birth.

296
00:15:02,740 --> 00:15:04,940
He asked her, ma'am, when were you born?

297
00:15:04,940 --> 00:15:06,400
So this is an elderly person.

298
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:07,620
And she said, what's that?

299
00:15:07,620 --> 00:15:10,120
And then he said, ma'am, can you give me your date of birth?

300
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:11,920
He said, sorry, say that again.

301
00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:12,920
He ran out of ideas.

302
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:14,880
He didn't know what to do.

303
00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,800
So he actually hummed happy birthday to you.

304
00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:22,520
And here you are as a trainer, you're listening to those calls for quality and you don't know

305
00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:24,760
whether to laugh or cry.

306
00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:26,240
But he got the job done.

307
00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,820
She said, oh, that it's it's fixed or something like that.

308
00:15:29,820 --> 00:15:31,480
She didn't understand what you were saying.

309
00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:33,640
But he hummed it and he held it to you.

310
00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:34,640
And apparently, because she understood.

311
00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:35,640
That's a great one.

312
00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:40,200
It's literally at the spur of the moment that some of these things have to be invented.

313
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:41,520
How do you train people for this?

314
00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,840
And we got people who would speak reasonably good English.

315
00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:49,820
But if you've not tasted some of the food that's American, so they would say, so are

316
00:15:49,820 --> 00:15:52,040
you having pizza for dinner?

317
00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:53,040
What do you do?

318
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:54,600
You've taught them that that's not how you say it.

319
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:55,720
But they've not had it.

320
00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:57,640
And then somebody will ask them, do you like it?

321
00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,240
And the person will say, no, I don't.

322
00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:01,240
What do you like?

323
00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:02,240
And then they'll ask others for at us.

324
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,800
So this kind of conversation would be, you know, and say, OK, draw the line, small talk.

325
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:07,800
You know, this is enough.

326
00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:11,640
So it's very, very dicey because you have to have that balance.

327
00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:16,520
But then having said that, they started out like that, you know, but some of them blossomed

328
00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:17,520
so beautifully.

329
00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:18,900
It really wasn't funny.

330
00:16:18,900 --> 00:16:21,120
You just saw them going out of the way and helping.

331
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,680
Of course, they got customer service training and everything.

332
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,880
And you suddenly saw them weaving it all together to say, OK, I'm actually making a difference

333
00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:29,040
to this customer.

334
00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:33,520
So the satisfaction part was great because in college, your students went out and did

335
00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:34,520
very, very well.

336
00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:36,520
You didn't always get to see that here.

337
00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:38,160
You train people on something.

338
00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,200
Half an hour later, they're using it on their job.

339
00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:43,280
That was instant gratification and Maggie Noodles.

340
00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,400
Like you saw results right there.

341
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:46,400
Absolutely.

342
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:47,400
Absolutely.

343
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:54,120
This is so insightful, because in most cases we hear the media stories are all about accent

344
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:59,960
neutralization, people just coming in and trying to adjust to a different lifestyle.

345
00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:05,760
Whereas the job needed to get done and both cultures, the American and the Indian, were

346
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,520
trying to build those bridges.

347
00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:13,480
And obviously the bridges, not in all cases, would meet halfway.

348
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:15,840
Sometimes they just be suspended somewhere.

349
00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:22,880
But then you'll have those characters who sing Happy Birthday to you and discover an

350
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:28,080
continuous link which the person manages to get, crosses cultures and does all of that.

351
00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:33,600
So you never felt it was important to actually cultivate the accent or it was not particularly

352
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,000
required for what these people were doing?

353
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,360
Look, they all had to annihilate their identities.

354
00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:41,760
Every one of them took on an American name.

355
00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:46,560
OK, so Anuradha would become Amy or Annie or something like that.

356
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:47,560
This is what happened.

357
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:49,360
It's not like I didn't believe in it.

358
00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:53,440
It was a little bit of a hurdle that their confidence would be up and the job would be

359
00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:55,880
done even if they just spoke clearly.

360
00:17:55,880 --> 00:18:00,080
So I think that itself was a huge climb for them coming from where they were.

361
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,720
They were thinking in their languages and translating.

362
00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:07,320
Every day I would come home and share some joke or the other like that, which was real.

363
00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,520
And my daughter would keep saying, he's right about it.

364
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:10,520
Please write about it.

365
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:11,520
Yes, you should.

366
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:16,480
No, that's a phase, Aparna, which is kind of past now.

367
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,280
Today the accents and I think some of the youngsters today will probably tell you which

368
00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:24,640
is the latest, you know, whether it's Breaking Bad or whether it's something else which is

369
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,040
currently in vogue.

370
00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:27,880
They are absolutely up to date.

371
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,760
The net has equalized the entire thing.

372
00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:36,040
You know what people are watching and the fact that Netflix is now across 170 countries.

373
00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:40,480
Culture has now got flattened, at least of a watching kind.

374
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:45,520
So vice versa also, when they also know that they're talking to someone in India and it's

375
00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,280
completely above board now.

376
00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,160
Those days it was very surreptitious and we actually had to tell them what is it?

377
00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:52,160
What is the weather like outside?

378
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,280
And you're supposed to say, hey, I'm sitting in New York and it's snowing, which you know

379
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,360
is a blatant lie, but that was part of the job.

380
00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:00,000
The guy hadn't seen, I mean, he was from Salem.

381
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,800
He'd never seen snow in his life and telling him.

382
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:07,400
So we've had very smart customers say, okay, so tell me what the weather is like outside.

383
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,480
And they will tell you as an AC officer, I can't look out or something like that.

384
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:14,480
These people would be equally smart in their responses.

385
00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,520
I think on both sides there's greater awareness.

386
00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,520
This phase lasted how long?

387
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:21,240
Two and a half years.

388
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:22,960
Reason for moving on was so strange.

389
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:24,880
It had nothing to do with the job or anything.

390
00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,480
I used to drive 26 kilometers each way.

391
00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,400
That became a little bit in those days.

392
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:31,400
Yes.

393
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:32,400
Not anymore, I think.

394
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,240
And I had a non AC little car.

395
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,040
I would drive happily and go.

396
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:41,360
The thing was that extend working hours would keep extending, extending because this was

397
00:19:41,360 --> 00:19:43,040
also working to the US times.

398
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:47,240
So I wouldn't really get up at six and come back the way I'm supposed to.

399
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:48,240
Lots of little, little challenges.

400
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,960
You know, I had a growing daughter and then she would say, when you come back, bring back

401
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:53,320
blue chart paper.

402
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,560
All shops would be closed by the time I got here.

403
00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:57,360
So there were all those kinds of difficulties.

404
00:19:57,360 --> 00:20:01,800
I had a fantastic learning there and I got certified on a few things.

405
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:03,120
It was very good learning.

406
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:06,200
So I then took up a job very, very close to home.

407
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,920
The distance criteria being a big one on my mind at that time.

408
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:14,200
True to my kiss month that office shifted to a larger campus five months from that.

409
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:18,280
So for five months, I enjoyed myself by, you know, reaching office before I could hit top

410
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,160
gear that this was a place called Phoenix global solutions, which got taken over by

411
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:23,640
TCS afterwards.

412
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,360
So this is where I really learned the business side of things.

413
00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:30,320
I learned the word ROI literally from there.

414
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,960
Otherwise it was still the first job was more of an extension of college.

415
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,960
So in terms of learning, it was mostly training oriented learning.

416
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,580
I didn't look at it from the business side at all.

417
00:20:39,580 --> 00:20:43,120
So I worked with a bunch of people from GE in Phoenix global solutions.

418
00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:46,520
And suddenly I was sitting at a meeting and wondering whether they were speaking in English

419
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:51,160
because they talked about FTE, they talked about ROI, they talked about this.

420
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,480
And I said, sorry, gentlemen, but can you just say that in layman's terms?

421
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:56,580
Because I don't understand a word of what you're saying.

422
00:20:56,580 --> 00:21:00,640
And then I actually got trained on, on became a green belt and all that.

423
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,600
So I suddenly became much, much better at process improve.

424
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,500
So this was an organization that was offering only technical training.

425
00:21:08,500 --> 00:21:11,940
And I brought in this whole soft skills piece.

426
00:21:11,940 --> 00:21:15,560
And as people got promoted, they all went in and said, it was like this whole continuum

427
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,520
that we put in and said, if you need to reach here, you need to do this.

428
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:22,720
And they had a very beautiful campus, which is built like the Epcot center.

429
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:24,120
It's like a glass wall.

430
00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:26,160
It cost them the earth to maintain.

431
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,320
My task was to make the money to keep it going.

432
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,960
So I had to get into the business side of things, even though that was not my design.

433
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:34,680
That's why I said not by design at all.

434
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:39,800
So there again, I went in as a training manager and grew and start involved in everything

435
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:44,640
from the time people came in until they got promoted, did night shifts in the previous

436
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:45,640
one too.

437
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:50,100
And this one just for a lark and actually had so much fun and learning so much from

438
00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:52,140
watching people in action and all that.

439
00:21:52,140 --> 00:21:54,100
So this was not just contact center.

440
00:21:54,100 --> 00:21:58,360
There was a contact center, but also managerial leadership training that was coming in.

441
00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:03,520
So I progressed in terms of what I was doing, got certified on a couple of psychometric

442
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,600
tools because they were needed.

443
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:06,680
Learned a lot there.

444
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:11,320
The biggest learning from there was this whole business aspect of looking at it from the

445
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,320
money lens, not just making it.

446
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:14,320
You were going to ask me this.

447
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:15,560
Two questions Aparna.

448
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:21,200
One is that called for a lot of confidence to be able to sit in a room where you didn't

449
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,960
understand what is going and then say, Hey, I don't understand.

450
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:25,960
Tell me.

451
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,360
You didn't worry about what people would think.

452
00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:33,040
There is a lot of, you know, around this whole thing of trying to get away.

453
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:34,400
That fake it till you make it.

454
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:39,200
There's this whole thing now, which says that just coast, even if you don't understand,

455
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,960
whereas you decided that I will level with people.

456
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:47,160
I will tell them, I don't care what they think, but they're going to tell me, okay, what it

457
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:48,160
means.

458
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:49,880
I'll understand what it means and then figure out.

459
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:55,160
And then the shift, what changed in your mind when you went from training people to being

460
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,080
responsible for business.

461
00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,560
That was a dicey moment, but just that I didn't give it so much thought.

462
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:05,760
I think today what I'd had quietly done is Googled FTE under the table, you know, on

463
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:06,760
my phone.

464
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,420
Those days we had phones except that they were largest.

465
00:23:09,420 --> 00:23:11,600
So you couldn't surreptitiously do that.

466
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,360
No, I was going to work very closely with these folks.

467
00:23:14,360 --> 00:23:18,000
These were operations folks and I was going to work very closely with them.

468
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:22,320
So it wasn't just finding out what all those terminologies meant that day.

469
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,080
It was more about telling them you three are from GE.

470
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:26,080
I'm not.

471
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,920
So if you're talking when I'm around, please be aware that you need to speak in English

472
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,440
and not just, you know, a strange language.

473
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:37,320
Believe it or not, I became actually quite proficient because I'm a good learner and

474
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:38,600
I don't mind asking.

475
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:39,840
So I had no baggage, right?

476
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:46,600
If I had had an MBA, HR or an MBA with a specialization in training, I may have thought twice, thrice,

477
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,560
four times before saying, hey, I don't know.

478
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,780
I had no such pretensions.

479
00:23:50,780 --> 00:23:56,200
And the biggest confidence for me was my sister principal in college saying, if ever you decide

480
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,160
to come back, you know, there's always place.

481
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:02,480
So I felt like that was like the net below a trapeze artist, right?

482
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:03,480
It's always there.

483
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:04,700
You may not need it.

484
00:24:04,700 --> 00:24:05,800
You hope you don't use it.

485
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,840
It's like medical insurance or all of those things, but it's there.

486
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:14,000
So I didn't really worry about image, you know, well, now that you say it, it seems

487
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,400
like a big thing, but at that time it wasn't, it was a question of survival.

488
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,000
I need to do something the next day.

489
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,340
I also learned phenomenal detail orientation from the boss there.

490
00:24:23,340 --> 00:24:27,480
I had a very supportive boss called Vasanth, but big boss was a gentleman by the name of

491
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,880
Satish Bangalore, the kind of detailing that he did.

492
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:31,880
So I've heard of bespoke.

493
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,060
I've heard of customization.

494
00:24:34,060 --> 00:24:35,060
Those days.

495
00:24:35,060 --> 00:24:39,040
The big question was, does India really have the capability to do the work that we are

496
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:40,040
giving them?

497
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:41,040
Right?

498
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,020
He would receive people at the old airport in Bangalore, put them in the Leela, come

499
00:24:44,020 --> 00:24:49,280
into the office and tell us Janice is going to be sitting here in the boardroom and she's

500
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:50,800
looking for this, this, this.

501
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,380
Peter will be sitting here and he's keen on this.

502
00:24:53,380 --> 00:24:55,420
We were prepped completely.

503
00:24:55,420 --> 00:24:57,120
And then in the evening we got together.

504
00:24:57,120 --> 00:25:02,000
So there was this whole thing of proving our metal and then mingling and becoming the social

505
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,000
people.

506
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:08,100
I think his way of anticipating all this really helped the business.

507
00:25:08,100 --> 00:25:10,280
For me, this is a completely new ball game.

508
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,960
I mean, I would have gladly gone home instead of going to the Leela in the evening, but

509
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,820
I realized what an important part it was if they were to see you.

510
00:25:17,820 --> 00:25:21,640
So he called me aside and said, look, you seem to know about American culture and all

511
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:22,640
of that.

512
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,560
I said, yes, I've taught it, but I've never visited the country or anything like that.

513
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,880
So he says, no, just, just have a regular conversation with them because I want them

514
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,420
to see what you can do.

515
00:25:30,420 --> 00:25:35,600
And I think it will do wonders seeing them as social equals in the evening, I think made

516
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,060
a huge difference.

517
00:25:37,060 --> 00:25:41,000
And for me, that was an eye opener to say just hard work and capability is not going

518
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:42,240
to take you home.

519
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:47,720
And this whole prep of how he would say who's looking for what it was almost like anticipating

520
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,600
the customer's needs.

521
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,480
And this is something that I use in training today when I'm offering, making a pitch to

522
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:54,480
a client today.

523
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,240
I'd say you probably may be looking at this.

524
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,000
Is this something you're looking at?

525
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:00,400
And they always say, yes, yes.

526
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:01,400
How did you get that?

527
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:02,960
And I know where I learned this.

528
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:09,340
And this is fascinating because the IT part of it and India's credentials in IT today,

529
00:26:09,340 --> 00:26:13,560
I think the world over they're established, they're very well known, but marshalling

530
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:19,840
all these forces and getting people to believe that we can deliver is another set of skill

531
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,740
sets, which I think we invented on the fly with people like you.

532
00:26:23,740 --> 00:26:28,960
You had to figure out in a meeting from a culture that is not familiar in a country

533
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:33,600
you haven't visited and you still had to make out that this is what that customer is wrestling

534
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:38,600
with a sales guy in the US meeting them would know the context perfectly.

535
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:39,600
Absolutely.

536
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,760
But you had to figure out the context.

537
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,600
This is what you're looking at and then imagine that, okay, this is a problem that I'm going

538
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,100
to solve and then move it.

539
00:26:47,100 --> 00:26:51,860
So I think it calls for thinking two steps ahead, which I don't think I've got talked

540
00:26:51,860 --> 00:26:54,800
about in media or the kind of people that you had.

541
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:59,080
I remember my brother-in-law telling me that people who are interacting with the client,

542
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:05,320
they were so valuable because the business came because of that interaction and the trust

543
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:06,320
that was built.

544
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:10,840
And if that person left, then the next person would not be the next in line.

545
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,840
It would be somebody who would be able to build that whole.

546
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:18,860
And like you pointed out right now, your boss was looking, Sanjay Bangalore was looking

547
00:27:18,860 --> 00:27:24,240
and he figured out that you were the person who would be able to make those connections,

548
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:25,660
which is very perceptive.

549
00:27:25,660 --> 00:27:28,000
You've made it a part of your training program.

550
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,040
What are some of the other things that you picked up?

551
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,600
I think also wearing what you can and cannot do proudly.

552
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,880
I had learned to say no before, but also to say, no, this is how far we'll go.

553
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:38,880
Sorry, client.

554
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,440
So while you're bespoke, you're willing to accommodate.

555
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,520
And it's usually the client really checking and they're hard drivers, right?

556
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:46,520
Some of them.

557
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,680
So they push you to see how far you'll go.

558
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,680
So will your people do this in the middle of the night?

559
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:52,240
Will they do this on Sundays?

560
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:53,240
Will they do this?

561
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:54,240
So why do you have so many holidays?

562
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:55,240
And I said, I didn't make them.

563
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,080
They're there and you have to work around it.

564
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:58,720
You tell me what needs to be done.

565
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:04,360
So I got more confident and comfortable speaking like that, you know, to say, okay, so we have

566
00:28:04,360 --> 00:28:05,360
this.

567
00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:07,400
So why can't your folks come in on a Sunday?

568
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,000
Why can't they come in on Diwali?

569
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:10,440
We were in essential services.

570
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:15,120
You did have a skeletal staff running things, but everybody did not need to come.

571
00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:17,880
And a lot of people came from the north, northeast.

572
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,800
They would take three days to just get home, which is very hard for an American to imagine.

573
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:22,800
Yeah.

574
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:24,400
I say, look, but why can't they fly?

575
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,680
They said, I think there are no planes to Uttarakhand.

576
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:32,080
They will go somewhere and then take a bus and then probably walk the last mile.

577
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:33,080
Who knows?

578
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:38,600
So I got a little more comfortable with that kind of a conversation because probably of

579
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,880
that social thing where we were equal footing.

580
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,600
The next day when you met them, there was no hierarchy, right?

581
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,180
The first day when starting out, it must have been, hey, here's somebody to come to give

582
00:28:47,180 --> 00:28:49,880
you business and you have to earn it and woo them.

583
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,160
You didn't have that pressure anymore.

584
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:53,160
So I definitely learned that.

585
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,120
The other thing I learned was this was the first time I had to let go of people.

586
00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,160
And that gave me sleepless nights.

587
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,080
There were people whose performances didn't match.

588
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,360
Expectations were set upfront, you know, to say, if you don't shape up, you have to stale

589
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:07,360
out.

590
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,680
And yet when it happened, I knew the guy had EMIs.

591
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,240
I knew he had two small kids.

592
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:12,240
Okay.

593
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:13,320
And I couldn't sleep that night.

594
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,040
This was a hard transition for me.

595
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,320
I was responsible as an HR person for that.

596
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,180
And the first time I did it, I was in bad shape.

597
00:29:19,180 --> 00:29:22,040
My face would not have shown anything in front of that person.

598
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,720
But when I came back, anybody who knew me well would have known I was shattered.

599
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,680
And I felt like I was messing with somebody's career and all of that.

600
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,080
I became hard headed afterwards.

601
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,000
This happened once, twice, 13 times, 15 times.

602
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,520
There was the sensitivity which never left.

603
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,160
So that's what people would say even when I asked them to leave, you've given me a fair

604
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:41,160
chance kind of a thing.

605
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,240
So it was to come very gently.

606
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,800
But the message was non-negotiable to say, you can leave now, you can leave in a month.

607
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:51,840
So I think that's a huge skill for me from my boss that I learned.

608
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,360
And she knew I was uncomfortable.

609
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,080
So she'd say, I want you to fire him.

610
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,640
And I kept thinking, why is she pushing me to the deep end?

611
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,020
She seems to like me.

612
00:29:59,020 --> 00:30:00,920
But this was huge growth for me.

613
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:08,080
By the time I went into my last corporate job, I was quite seasoned at many aspects

614
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,200
and there it was just a question of skill.

615
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,880
So again, I left Phoenix before because of distances.

616
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,040
So again, I was driving long distances.

617
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:19,780
I had elderly in-laws at home, little child growing up, husband posted outside.

618
00:30:19,780 --> 00:30:22,020
So it was like a huge responsibility.

619
00:30:22,020 --> 00:30:24,440
And I was straddling all those.

620
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,120
AXA was just sheer scale.

621
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:27,520
Had to negotiate with the French.

622
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,160
AXA was a company that grew inorganically.

623
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,200
They grew by acquiring other companies.

624
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,240
It was so many different little, little cultures.

625
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,540
So here it was not as easy to read what the need was.

626
00:30:38,540 --> 00:30:42,780
And for a lot of them, we were bringing their jobs to India, literally learning from them

627
00:30:42,780 --> 00:30:45,360
and saying, okay, now once this is done, you don't have a job.

628
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,440
So that was not the easiest of things.

629
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,520
People were not the most cooperative and those kinds of things happen.

630
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,960
Again, I had two very, very supportive bosses and this was fantastic.

631
00:30:54,960 --> 00:31:00,720
So all my worries about not traveling overseas, I had traveled on holiday, but I had never

632
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:01,800
traveled on work.

633
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:03,200
All that had changed.

634
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,260
And I think it made a huge difference when you met them face to face.

635
00:31:07,260 --> 00:31:08,560
So they had heard my name.

636
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:09,920
We had had audio calls.

637
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,300
This was still slightly before video calls.

638
00:31:12,300 --> 00:31:15,640
When you actually met in person and said, this is our capability.

639
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,440
We can do this receiving of it.

640
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,200
The buy-in was very, very different.

641
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,480
And then suddenly I got so drawn into the admin part of it.

642
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,560
I was signing more checks than doing my real job.

643
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,280
And that's when I said, okay, enough is enough.

644
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,240
I moved out, became certified as a coach.

645
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,320
That's where the journey took a little turn.

646
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:33,880
I wanted to travel the world.

647
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,660
I've been doing that in bits and pieces, but I imagined that I would backpack and go at

648
00:31:37,660 --> 00:31:38,660
one shot.

649
00:31:38,660 --> 00:31:39,660
That didn't happen.

650
00:31:39,660 --> 00:31:45,880
It's amazing how you moved from accent training or training people to business development,

651
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:52,680
to negotiating contracts, to actually managing cultures and not just people.

652
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,560
So some people make the transition, Aparna, but some don't.

653
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,660
What do you think is the differentiation?

654
00:31:58,660 --> 00:32:00,200
Is it a willingness to change?

655
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:01,200
Is it capability?

656
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:02,960
I think it's a mindset, right?

657
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:04,960
It's more about wanting to learn.

658
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,240
The day you say, look, I know everything.

659
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:08,920
That day you're a dead duck, right?

660
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:10,440
Because here I had no such problem.

661
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:11,520
I didn't know anything.

662
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,080
And I had no qualms in saying that 20 times.

663
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,420
So it was easy for me because I would ask the dumbest of questions.

664
00:32:17,420 --> 00:32:21,800
I would go to someone whose job was at stake and say, hey, tell me more about what you're

665
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:22,800
doing.

666
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:23,800
How do you do this?

667
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:24,800
What are your challenges?

668
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,560
So I realized that my one-on-one connect was better.

669
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:32,680
And they actually opened up knowing fully well that this could result in a hastened

670
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:33,680
exit for them.

671
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:34,680
Yeah.

672
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,640
On my part, it was clearly just curiosity, just wanting to learn.

673
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,800
Now when I look at it as a coach and I see a pattern, is wanting to learn thing is very,

674
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:42,800
very strong.

675
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,680
I think you've hit the nail on the head there because for a lot of people, this want to

676
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,920
learn something new is a milestone that they passed over 20 years ago.

677
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:55,480
They're sort of coasting on something that they've learned and then they want to guard

678
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:56,480
it.

679
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,640
If the skill is taken away from me, I don't know what to do.

680
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:03,340
As the skill evolves, unless you're trying new things out, where is the learning?

681
00:33:03,340 --> 00:33:05,720
And you don't always choose what you get to learn.

682
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,560
You may need to learn something that may not be appealing to you and that's okay.

683
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:10,920
You'll still give it a shot.

684
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:12,720
And if you fail, there are other avenues.

685
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:13,720
That's all.

686
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,760
So that's fantastic.

687
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:20,040
That's really the nub of what a whole lot of careers are about.

688
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,840
What you're learning may not be something that you really want to learn.

689
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,260
And you'd have never opted for it yourself.

690
00:33:26,260 --> 00:33:27,260
I know I wouldn't have.

691
00:33:27,260 --> 00:33:33,600
So as a coach, Venu, biggest thing to me was not to answer when you knew the answer.

692
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,080
I've always been a reasonably good listener.

693
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:37,520
You know, you're dying to say it.

694
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,120
You say, can't you see it?

695
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:43,320
But you know, as a coach, you hold back and then you learn to convert that into questions

696
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:44,320
that nudge people.

697
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:45,960
So I think I've evolved as a person.

698
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:47,460
I've definitely become calmer.

699
00:33:47,460 --> 00:33:51,520
You know, you were very kind in saying that I was calm when we had technical difficulties.

700
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:56,980
So I'll come with a lot of working on people, working on things and say, look, this happens.

701
00:33:56,980 --> 00:33:59,860
So you can't become a coach without changing yourself.

702
00:33:59,860 --> 00:34:04,560
And that has been extremely beneficial for me, you know, holding back, not talking about,

703
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,340
hey, I know this, I know it all.

704
00:34:06,340 --> 00:34:07,680
You don't ever say that, right?

705
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,120
Because you don't know it all and you never will.

706
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,040
One lifetime is barely enough, right?

707
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,880
So what are the things you do now as a coach?

708
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,240
I am actually like a little bit of a free bird.

709
00:34:18,240 --> 00:34:21,520
So what I do is I only take up about 10 or 12 days of work.

710
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:26,080
I give my heart and soul for that, whether it's facilitation or coaching.

711
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,960
I have regular coaching that goes on right through the year, six months, assignments,

712
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:30,960
things like that.

713
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,680
But facilitation, I only take up 10 or 12 days.

714
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:35,200
That's because I'm a movie buff.

715
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,600
So I have to sit quietly and, you know, my way of de-stressing after a hard day of talking

716
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,760
and facilitating is sit quietly and not just watch.

717
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,760
Quite often it's re-watch, something old and familiar.

718
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,020
My mother keeps telling me, I watch it like I have an exam the next day.

719
00:34:50,020 --> 00:34:53,040
I think that's the intensity with which I watch it.

720
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:54,040
That is true.

721
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,680
I also love traveling, you know, every year definitely travel.

722
00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:59,520
It just took us forever to finish India.

723
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:01,040
There's so much to see here.

724
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,520
So many different things to learn.

725
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:04,940
That's been a fantastic thing.

726
00:35:04,940 --> 00:35:09,040
And during the COVID times, five friends and I got together, we wrote a book.

727
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,240
This is something that we had been intending to do.

728
00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:15,240
And it just came, it just shaped up beautifully.

729
00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:18,320
You asked me to tell you some amusing stories from training.

730
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:19,440
May I just add one?

731
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,720
It just suddenly occurred to me.

732
00:35:21,720 --> 00:35:26,040
So there was this person that I was training and those days, you know, I had to test what

733
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:27,040
I had designed.

734
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:28,040
So I would train myself.

735
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:29,040
I had a team.

736
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:33,060
First, I would always train to see timing okay, instruction okay.

737
00:35:33,060 --> 00:35:34,100
Is it falling well?

738
00:35:34,100 --> 00:35:35,400
Is it being received?

739
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,160
Is it getting the desired results?

740
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,880
And I enjoyed every part of it because I would go back, revise, change it because it's not

741
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:42,860
falling well, change the instruction.

742
00:35:42,860 --> 00:35:45,440
So there was this concept that I was explaining to somebody.

743
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:51,360
I explained once and I explained twice and I explained thrice and he hadn't caught on.

744
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:52,680
It was a very important piece.

745
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,760
And what I saw was the other people getting restless because everybody else was getting

746
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:57,760
bored.

747
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,760
While I wanted to give this person all the additional support, the other people were

748
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,640
also my audience and I had to keep that in mind at every congress.

749
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:08,920
I said, why don't you and I catch up at lunch and we can sit and do it.

750
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,720
He was so apologetic and this is where English, I think, you know, plays a big part.

751
00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:14,720
He was so apologetic.

752
00:36:14,720 --> 00:36:17,440
He said, I know you've been very, very patient and kind.

753
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:22,920
You explained it once, twice, thrice, four times and I haven't picked you up yet.

754
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,160
I was doubled up in laughter.

755
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:26,960
He had no clue what was happening.

756
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:31,320
Nobody in the class had any clue what was happening.

757
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,960
I couldn't resist it.

758
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:40,400
I doubt if that was the intention, but you know, thank you for it.

759
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,840
So people unwittingly say the most hilarious things.

760
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:48,280
I think what lightens the atmosphere and makes you want to go for more.

761
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:53,440
And the fact is that all that happened in that one sentence is for that word to be wrongly

762
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:54,440
played.

763
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,840
I've had CEOs introduce me.

764
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,440
There was a company in which I went in as a coach.

765
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,240
I used to be present there all week.

766
00:37:01,240 --> 00:37:05,680
He said, okay, she has so much experience and you know, she comes with X amount of experience

767
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:06,680
and all that.

768
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,640
Please take advantage of her.

769
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,400
So this is what makes life easy.

770
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,400
You're looking for all the funny things in different moments.

771
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:17,360
Intentionally, unintentionally, that makes your day for the rest of the day.

772
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:18,680
You can't stop smiling.

773
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:19,680
Yeah.

774
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:20,680
So we started with the language.

775
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:21,680
We started with linguistics.

776
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:26,560
You know, right to the beginning, you're trying to teach people grammar and telling them that

777
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,680
oh, wait, passport is full of hanging from whatever it is.

778
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,920
But even after you know the language, you know, the nuances, which people don't pick

779
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:39,560
up unless you, you're so steeped that they haven't even figured out what exactly they

780
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:40,560
were saying.

781
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:45,800
So if you do a periodic assessment at any time, are you a person who coasted or who

782
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:47,800
tried to set targets?

783
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:48,880
Coasted definitely.

784
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:53,680
But at the same time, I have this discipline of updating my CV every six months.

785
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:55,840
I'm not even applying for a job in the past 10 years.

786
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,680
I've been on my own, but I update my CV every six months.

787
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:04,040
This I learned from a friend and look at it because you tend to forget certain things

788
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:08,440
and off late, we know in the early days I never did, but off late, I'm trying to keep

789
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,000
track of what you're doing.

790
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:12,120
Is that good for you?

791
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,480
Because clients suddenly ask you, how many hours have you done and you have no clue.

792
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,000
You say I've been using it for the past 20 years.

793
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:19,000
Okay.

794
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:20,760
So convert that into hours and you will have no clue.

795
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,520
So I'm now actually looking at it.

796
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:28,520
But for myself, every January and June, I update my CV and I look at it to say, where

797
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:29,520
am I going?

798
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:30,640
What would I like to add?

799
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:34,160
This is what helps me in adding newer certifications.

800
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:35,160
So I'm just adding one.

801
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:36,900
I'm taking an exam next weekend.

802
00:38:36,900 --> 00:38:39,360
And this is something that's not for anybody else.

803
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,880
It just makes me happy that I'm learning something.

804
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:45,000
Through COVID, I've been doing online certificates.

805
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,120
I think it's a question of this quest, right?

806
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:48,880
To say, Hey, what more can you bring in?

807
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,040
So I don't mind learning anything from anybody.

808
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:55,280
I learned how to open the quarter window of a Maruti from a five-year-old boy.

809
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:56,920
He just used a ruler and slipped it.

810
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,120
He said, can you teach me?

811
00:38:58,120 --> 00:38:59,120
And he taught me.

812
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,560
So I'm saying I'm happy to learn from any quarters.

813
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:02,560
So I do audit.

814
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,560
At the same time, I don't obsess to say, here's where I want to go.

815
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:11,240
I just, probably because maybe I achieved more than I actually planned to.

816
00:39:11,240 --> 00:39:12,240
So I'm quite content.

817
00:39:12,240 --> 00:39:16,960
And I'm doing what I really want to do, which is read, write, generally be useful.

818
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:21,680
While it looks like a very checkered career, the underlying string, if you were to look

819
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:27,160
at it like a string of pearls, is the fact that you help people to identify their potential

820
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:28,280
and realize it.

821
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,560
Whether you take teaching, whether you take, you know, being a training manager, whether

822
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:36,120
you take being a general manager or a vice president of HR, and a coach, of course.

823
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,160
I think that's the underlying part that keeps me going.

824
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:43,520
The unsaid part in that is all the while, it's something that you're doing with yourself

825
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:44,520
as well.

826
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:45,520
Absolutely.

827
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,840
Realizing your potential because you're trying to figure out, okay, how deep do I go?

828
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,040
And that's the point at which you want to push yourself and then say, okay, can I do

829
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:53,040
this?

830
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:57,360
And even if you fail, which you said, I'm willing to make those mistakes that happen.

831
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:03,120
And I've always felt that the stream of consciousness conversation that is, I'm not rehearsing it.

832
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,640
I'm not trying to package it, I'm not coming back to it in a different edit.

833
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:08,760
I'm trying to understand in the moment.

834
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:13,160
Maybe there are times we'll go completely off and the conversation may not be interesting,

835
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:14,920
but that's not the point.

836
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,400
The point is whether are you pushing?

837
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:18,400
It's a wonderful thing.

838
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,080
Like you said, it's a string of pearls that you assemble.

839
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,440
And when the next pearl gets added, how long does it grow?

840
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,920
All of those things are part of whatever you do.

841
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,920
And also kicking yourself to say, hey, I should have said that my thought is slightly different

842
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,280
and say, okay, the next time I know I should say that, not even bothered about the fact

843
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:36,040
that I didn't say it.

844
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,120
And that is the fascinating part.

845
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,080
You work with a fair number of young people.

846
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,640
So what are the things you're seeing now?

847
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:48,600
So people come and ask you Gen Z and all of that, but scratch the surface, we know the

848
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:50,120
worries are the same.

849
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:51,400
The pressures are the same.

850
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:52,680
We box them.

851
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:56,120
And this is where you started the program by how do you interact with people?

852
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:57,120
And I said, one-on-one.

853
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,360
So I'm not even seeing them in that box.

854
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,480
I'm not even trying to fix them into any particular category.

855
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,480
To me that person is Prashant or Rekha or whoever.

856
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:06,800
They come with their own pressures.

857
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:11,120
So often, and this is the other thing that I've learned, I think as a coach, you apply

858
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:13,400
your own standards to other people, right?

859
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,080
Whether it's empathy or whatever, you like to view it from your lens.

860
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:20,080
And I learned all of this the hard way to say that's not true at all.

861
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:21,280
We're talking about this.

862
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:25,040
Just last week, a friend of mine was saying for one of her virtual programs, there was

863
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,800
this person who is logging in and what looked like a little better than a hut.

864
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:30,760
Can we take so much for granted?

865
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:32,840
And then we say, please turn on your cameras.

866
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:38,240
So I think empathy is a very big part of what I do because you don't know what the other

867
00:41:38,240 --> 00:41:39,640
person's pressures are.

868
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:41,000
And you teach that.

869
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,240
Cerebrally, you know it, but it just comes out very easily.

870
00:41:44,240 --> 00:41:49,520
I've become very cognizant of it to say your standards are not everybody else's standards.

871
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,560
So a lot of young people, they may look flippant.

872
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,880
They may dress differently from the way you would like them to, but they're very keen

873
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:58,040
to learn most of them.

874
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,080
A lot of them are also a little mixed up to say, what am I doing?

875
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:02,080
Where am I?

876
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,520
Because let's take data sciences, for example.

877
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,080
Not everybody studied that, but they're working in that field.

878
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,240
It's only now that I even courses, right?

879
00:42:09,240 --> 00:42:11,040
Five years ago, they weren't even courses.

880
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:15,040
So I think a lot of them are still figuring out a lot of things and there is a lot of

881
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:19,200
pressure on them from maybe their homes, nobody to guide them.

882
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,720
So you said teachers played a very important role.

883
00:42:21,720 --> 00:42:23,800
For some of them, they've had the advantage.

884
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:25,080
A lot of them haven't.

885
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:26,080
That makes a big difference.

886
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,240
So I think it's one little nudge in the right direction to say, I see you showing potential

887
00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:30,760
in this direction.

888
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:31,980
And that's so important.

889
00:42:31,980 --> 00:42:36,360
It's not one big victory, but a series of little ones, which you require from time to

890
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:37,360
time validation.

891
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:41,720
You require time to time, from time to time, people telling you that, yeah, it's okay.

892
00:42:41,720 --> 00:42:42,720
You made a mistake.

893
00:42:42,720 --> 00:42:43,720
That doesn't matter.

894
00:42:43,720 --> 00:42:48,540
I've been in a profession where it was very easy to run someone down because creative

895
00:42:48,540 --> 00:42:50,360
is very, very subjective.

896
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:55,920
When you take an idea across in your early stages, you can have bosses who can trample

897
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,280
on it, twist it, break it into a million pieces.

898
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,760
But I had people who helped me up.

899
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,480
And I think that is a lesson for life.

900
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,040
It never stops.

901
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,680
You treat a whole lot of people the same way that you have been taught and the way you

902
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:10,680
learn.

903
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:15,280
Sometimes it's purely luck that you happen to come across the people that you mentioned.

904
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:20,100
Sometimes you put into the same room as people who have a whole lot of stuff, but that unwillingness

905
00:43:20,100 --> 00:43:23,040
to learn can prevent you from getting there.

906
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:27,880
That and the other part, which is where the quieter ones, you make it a point to include

907
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:28,880
them, right?

908
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,320
By extension, they may not of their own open their mouths.

909
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,760
And you say, but I'd love to hear from you Ashok, what do you have to say kind of a thing?

910
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,160
I think that's a consistent thing.

911
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:39,160
You're so right there.

912
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,600
Just to come back to how many people have you trained?

913
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:48,540
You had a career in which you've 20, 30 years and you've trained so many people, so many

914
00:43:48,540 --> 00:43:50,120
lives you've impacted.

915
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,840
For a client yesterday, I was actually trying to count.

916
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,360
It would be something between 18 and 20,000.

917
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:57,360
Easily.

918
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,800
I mean, and that's a conservative figure.

919
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,640
That's because I was training long before this was really my profession.

920
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:09,280
In a sense, teaching also is in a lot of way giving people not just what's in the textbook,

921
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:10,280
right?

922
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:11,280
It was teaching life skills.

923
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,880
It was saying step out of your shadow, move, go out of your comfort zone.

924
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:19,600
You're so right that a whole lot of these things you never keep track of, which is why

925
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:21,700
I think it's very difficult to measure learning.

926
00:44:21,700 --> 00:44:26,680
What have you learned in 10 years of, if someone asks me, what have you learned in so many

927
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:28,560
years of being in the profession?

928
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:32,640
There are three or four points that you can probably rattle off, but if you are asked

929
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:37,160
and pushed, I don't know if that's the right thing or the wrong thing, but maybe it's the

930
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:38,160
way the world is going.

931
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:39,160
Number of hours.

932
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:40,160
If you get...

933
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:41,960
Data, data is needed for everything.

934
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:48,280
Data is in so many forms and has to be applied in so many places and not necessarily in the

935
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:49,740
same context.

936
00:44:49,740 --> 00:44:54,320
So my take, at least something that I've been thinking about is data is over.

937
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:56,040
It's not oil is yet.

938
00:44:56,040 --> 00:45:00,880
It's not reached the point where the channels have been constructed and it flows the petrol

939
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:01,880
vehicles or diesel vehicles.

940
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:02,880
It's easy.

941
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,680
So I only have the vehicles that take one of these two things, but if it's oil, it's

942
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:07,680
got to fit in everywhere.

943
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:08,680
It doesn't.

944
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:09,680
True.

945
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:13,080
I would measure that when people come back and say, look, you've made a difference.

946
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,560
And this may be 15 years after you've done something for them.

947
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:17,560
They stay in touch.

948
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:21,320
So the day you run a good program, you know, because you'll get LinkedIn requests.

949
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:22,320
Okay.

950
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:23,320
You say, ma'am, can I call you?

951
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,600
And I also make it a point to say, look, this is not a fly by night operation.

952
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:27,600
It's not a bam bam.

953
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:28,600
Thank you, ma'am.

954
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:29,600
Of course we're running.

955
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:30,600
Right.

956
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:31,600
So here I am.

957
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:33,280
You can always reach out and people do reach out.

958
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:35,080
So that's the beauty of it, I guess.

959
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:36,280
So wonderful.

960
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,280
How did you develop an interest in making pickles?

961
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:43,640
Ha, this is maybe adding spice to people's lives.

962
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:48,640
Actually, having grown up in Gujarat, what you see is jars and jars of pickles in most

963
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:49,800
homes you'd see.

964
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:53,720
It's prominently displayed with pride and this is done for the year.

965
00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:57,600
So in the summer, they will have 15 different kinds of mango pickles that are made.

966
00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:58,820
And this lasts a whole year.

967
00:45:58,820 --> 00:46:01,840
So this whole going back to our roots interests me.

968
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:07,240
So I like cooking and I like making pickles because I think we have so much that's kind

969
00:46:07,240 --> 00:46:08,240
of lost today.

970
00:46:08,240 --> 00:46:12,480
I find that friends love it when you present them things that are homemade.

971
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,880
They probably value it more than anything that's store bought.

972
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:16,880
Why store bought?

973
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:19,680
I mean, you can sit here and order and it's going to reach you in half an hour.

974
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:20,680
That's why I like it.

975
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:22,480
You know, it just makes me very happy.

976
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,120
And I feel like there's a lot of sun going waste and lovely mangoes going waste.

977
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:29,240
I don't know where I got it, but this is only about 10 years old.

978
00:46:29,240 --> 00:46:31,160
I never made pickles before that.

979
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:32,640
So what is the range like?

980
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:39,380
From orange peel to mango to lemon and red chilies, green chilies, the works, garlic.

981
00:46:39,380 --> 00:46:41,840
So my windowsill is full of beautiful bottles.

982
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,840
In fact, somebody told me you should put that as your display picture because that would

983
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:46,840
be unusual.

984
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,160
I said, okay, thank you so much.

985
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:50,160
It's fascinating.

986
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:55,740
And somewhere I believe that you're boundless curiosity and you're willing to experiment

987
00:46:55,740 --> 00:47:00,100
is really part of what makes you the person you are.

988
00:47:00,100 --> 00:47:02,480
At the end of the day, if you're curious, you're interested.

989
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:04,720
If you're interested, you put in the effort.

990
00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:08,160
And if you put in the effort, the results come not the way you expect.

991
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:12,760
If the effort and the journey itself is your pleasure, then the rest of it is all bonus.

992
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:14,840
I think it's been wonderful.

993
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:15,840
Thank you for taking the time.

994
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:16,840
Thank you for the opportunity.

995
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:19,840
And you're so easy to talk to, Venu.

996
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:20,840
Thank you so much.

997
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:26,760
That's because I think the people I talk to themselves have so much to say that it takes

998
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:29,840
me very little to get them to open up.

999
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:36,360
It's wonderful when I get to know about, and it's already yours is the 16 stories of careers.

1000
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:40,400
And I'm looking forward to meeting more and more people from completely different professions.

1001
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:45,440
The lovely part of it is how it starts from exactly where you said I had no clue.

1002
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:47,120
And then there is an awareness.

1003
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:49,380
There is a set of learning.

1004
00:47:49,380 --> 00:47:54,360
So if it was teaching a classroom and then teaching a whole group of students, and that

1005
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:59,080
was a particularly difficult phase in Indian IT where you suddenly had to scale companies.

1006
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:04,240
I don't think anywhere in the world companies had to grow overnight to 60 and 70,000 people.

1007
00:48:04,240 --> 00:48:05,240
And we managed it.

1008
00:48:05,240 --> 00:48:06,320
You played a role in it.

1009
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,800
You were responsible for shaping some of the careers that happened.

1010
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,840
And then stepping back to say, no, personally, I need to do this.

1011
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:14,840
That is wonderful.

1012
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,680
I will say, would you exchange it for anything?

1013
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:18,680
Not really.

1014
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:19,780
Thank you so much.

1015
00:48:19,780 --> 00:48:26,120
My first job, the podcast is a production from Ideascape Communications.

1016
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:32,960
Guest relations, promotions and creative is managed by Deepa Ravi with occasional support

1017
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:35,560
by Venugopal Nair.

1018
00:48:35,560 --> 00:49:03,680
Supporting and technical help is provided by LPS Jayachandran.