1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:19,720 Our guest today is Professor Alby Anand Kurian, a global marketing practitioner and theorist. 2 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:25,680 Dr. Kurian has been featured among 30 marketing people in the world and is currently senior 3 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:32,880 faculty at Exeter University in the UK. With a career graph that encompasses scripting, 4 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:40,920 filmmaking, writing and teaching marketing at classrooms in IIM and FTII in India, as 5 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:48,600 well as in Singapore and now at Exeter University in the UK, he is truly creating a huge impact 6 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:55,840 in understanding marketing, both from an academic as well as a practitioner's perspective. 7 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:01,680 Welcome to my first job where we find out what drives people, how luck plays a role 8 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:07,840 and the lessons they've learnt. This is episode 9 and like every interesting career 9 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:15,240 journey it's full of twists, turns and insights. My name is Venu Gopal Nair. I am the host 10 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:22,240 of the podcast and CEO of Ideascape Communications, an advertising agency into branding, creative 11 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:31,000 and design. So settle in, sit back and enjoy the conversation. Dr. Alby Kurian is currently 12 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:36,360 in Cambridge and that's where he's speaking to us from. 13 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:42,720 Good morning Venu. It's morning out here in Cambridge in the UK and it's freezing cold 14 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:53,120 as well. So I'm glad to be able to even talk to somebody who's in a warmer climate. 15 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:57,120 Sometimes you wish you could parcel some of the heat and dust of Chennai or at least the 16 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:02,120 heat of Chennai to warm the colder areas of the UK. 17 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:06,720 Absolutely. UK is going through a particularly cold climate and it's going through some 18 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:11,960 rather rough times as well but we'll weather it I'm sure. 19 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:19,160 Okay so what is your new assignment at Exeter University going to be about? 20 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:25,840 I'll be joining Exeter on the 1st of March so I will be relocating to this town as well 21 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:31,800 and sometimes I think that I've got used to relocating. Somebody asked me where's home 22 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:38,140 and I said I was born in Calcutta but I'm a Keralite then I schooled in Bombay then 23 00:02:38,140 --> 00:02:44,000 I worked in Bombay nearly very very long time then of course I went to New York then I went 24 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:49,440 to Singapore. I taught all over the world. I know China very well and now I'm here in 25 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:54,820 the UK and only because for some personal reasons I couldn't go to Africa. I really 26 00:02:54,820 --> 00:03:00,480 wanted to go to Africa actually. That was the one continent I really wanted to explore 27 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:08,000 but now of course I'm here and at Exeter I will be teaching marketing and marketing communications, 28 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:14,080 marketing strategy. As usual I think I hope to introduce some rather unconventional methods. 29 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:21,300 One of the schools that I taught in we actually founded a student led agency and we had a 30 00:03:21,300 --> 00:03:27,320 student led channel as well so we are hoping, Exeter is also hoping that I will be able 31 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:32,000 to introduce some of those unconventional elements into academics as well and as you 32 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:39,640 said yes I tried to bring the world of marketing into the classroom which is something that 33 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:45,400 I think all business schools should do. We haven't been doing it too well. It's still 34 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:53,480 slightly theoretical you know make it more and more hands-on you know so I call it something 35 00:03:53,480 --> 00:04:00,040 the marketing agency simulation that means every classroom is a marketing agent like 36 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:08,800 the kind you had. And it's good for students to be doing it so early on while they're studying 37 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:13,160 so that they get a kind of introduction to what life is going to be. So where did it 38 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:20,400 begin for you influences and the early influences in terms of how you planned your career or 39 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:26,440 how did it come about? Well marketing was at its infancy or at least marketing communications 40 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:31,480 to some extent was at its infancy everything was growing around us the multinationals 41 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:38,120 were coming in so we didn't really know for instance that there were ad filmmakers who 42 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:43,800 could make a pretty tidy fortune so it all happened to some extent by accident. I started 43 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:48,720 out in management as most of us did because we didn't know anything else then I moved 44 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:54,880 into an advertising agency Saatchi and Saatchi where I was again in account management but 45 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:59,400 at that point in time what I found really interesting was the creative side which is 46 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:06,400 where you've been all your life you know and which I really envy and I remember you know 47 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:11,300 spending a lot of the time with the creative guys and I think I was you know irritating 48 00:05:11,300 --> 00:05:16,400 them more than anything else but that was where I really absorbed more about advertising 49 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:21,280 and marketing communications than really in account management though the account management 50 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:28,680 guys will kill me for this. Okay, do you see that as a clear line or do you see it as a 51 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:36,560 fairly broad set of changes that happen? I think you know to most people it would all 52 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:44,080 seem very abrupt and very you know quite drastic and dramatic and to me it seemed very natural 53 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:50,240 and I was moving within advertising into the more creative areas at that time. My first 54 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:56,800 job was scripting for ad filmmakers and I think at that point in time you know advertising 55 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:01,880 was also growing everybody was learning the mechanics of it and then of course there was 56 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:06,760 one ad filmmaker who said hey I can't make this particular ad film but I've told the 57 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:11,120 agency that you know I know the scriptwriter who wrote the script so he'll probably be 58 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:17,680 do a good job for you and then the agency took me on and then of course it just kept 59 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:23,320 you know rolling all the way. Which was the film? I think it was for United Breweries 60 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:31,000 Company because I remember it was something to a lot of drinks and you know a lot of stuff 61 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:36,360 like that yeah. Right but writing a film and making a film are two different so how do 62 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:40,560 you think you manage the transition you know because they think that filmmaking is utter 63 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:45,240 chaos and there's a lot of you know planning and production a whole lot of other things 64 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:50,440 which need to be done and they're happy doing letting someone else bring a brand film to 65 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:55,760 life it may be different with feature film producers but ad films are generally you know 66 00:06:55,760 --> 00:07:01,400 there's a lot of work involved in and it is very controlled creativity. That's a very 67 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:06,840 interesting thought Venu I really I mean it's made me think about it and if I had to hazard 68 00:07:06,840 --> 00:07:14,560 or guess I would say a director especially in ad films is a scriptwriter with a bit of 69 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:20,640 management skills. Okay. That means even the scriptwriter has the ad film in his head he 70 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:25,480 has it in his head but he doesn't know how to translate it that means he doesn't know 71 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:32,440 oh I have to brief the cinematographer this way I have to work with the editor this way 72 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:36,720 I have to work with the music director he probably can hear the music in his head but 73 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:42,160 he doesn't know how to get it out of the music director. So I mean I'm just thinking of this 74 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:49,400 as you asked me the question it's a scriptwriter who has a certain amount of management skills 75 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,760 I know again this is a thought that nobody would really come up with a director is somebody 76 00:07:53,760 --> 00:08:00,040 who has management skills because you're managing a very very talented people who are specialists 77 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:05,560 in their own right. The music director knows more about music than you the cinematographer 78 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:11,600 knows more about cinematography than you the editor knows more about editing than you and 79 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:17,400 yet you have to get your point of view to a certain extent you're imposing your point 80 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:23,600 of view on them so you need a lot of very very strong people management skills to be 81 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:31,480 able to do that and I think to some extent that is where maybe some very highly talented 82 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:37,240 students who you know for instance have met at an FTI they may have very high creative 83 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:43,040 skills but maybe they're not able to translate some of those skills on to celluloid. What 84 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:51,080 was the process like when you were into making or creating marketing communications was teaching 85 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:56,880 still you know something that got you interested or was something that you parked for a little 86 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:01,520 while while you concentrated on filming. I think you know I come from a long line of 87 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:07,320 teachers I think some five generations or something so maybe there's something some 88 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:13,840 kind of gene floating around somewhere there but I think I remember I think the first lecture 89 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:19,880 I did was one of at one of the IIMs I then became the first Indian to do lectures at 90 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:25,000 IIM which is a management institute at the film institute which is obviously about film 91 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:31,560 and at the National Institute of Design so they were quite disparate institutions it 92 00:09:31,560 --> 00:09:39,000 became interesting because I was teaching about marketing and I was teaching about filmmaking 93 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:46,160 to IIM students to management students how films can introduce your message etc etc and 94 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:53,480 I was teaching advertising to feature film students. Okay that's quite a shift. I remember 95 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:59,720 a very interesting incident I went to FDI on the invitation of the head of the direction 96 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:05,520 department they are highly talented individuals very egocentric as well you know probably 97 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:10,440 the best taken from you know thousands of students who applied. I think a majority of 98 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:16,040 the students asked me why should we learn ad filmmaking we are watching one great film 99 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:21,200 every evening why should we learn how to make ad films. I said that look you're going to 100 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:25,920 enter filmmaking and you're going to struggle if you look at the statistics you're going 101 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:31,520 to probably struggle for something like five to ten years if you can make ad films you 102 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:37,280 are ensuring that you can make a comfortable living you're also learning your craft you're 103 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:42,520 learning how to shoot you're learning how to edit you're learning how to do music and 104 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:47,920 you're working with the best professionals with with very generous budgets so you're 105 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:53,320 learning at the expense of you know these huge multinationals. It's a second line of 106 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:58,920 income which you shouldn't discount. The interesting thing is that the Whistling Woods is one of 107 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:03,520 the institutes and Film and Television Institute is the other and out of all the students I 108 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:09,600 think quite a few of them finally became ad filmmakers and they were they became almost 109 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:14,400 full-time ad filmmakers and I remember you know meeting them recently and I said look 110 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:19,440 this is not what I meant I meant that you should you know do ad films as a way to sustain 111 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:24,920 yourself not to you know get comfortable and you know relax and not worry about feature 112 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:30,160 filmmaking at all. So some of them have gone back but quite a few of them have become full-time 113 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:36,000 ad filmmakers which I'm not happy to see at all. But do you think there is a fundamental 114 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,320 difference between the way ad films are created because there are very few people who have 115 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:46,480 made a transition from ad filmmaking to feature films because you see a few examples but there 116 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:53,360 have also been instances where ad films essentially are about communication which is cut down 117 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:59,440 to its you know a lot of stereotypes are used or archetypes are used whereas films allow 118 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:05,960 for development of character. There is a difference in how a scene plays out or how it's conceived 119 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:11,640 but I think we're going more into a discussion of film. No and I think that's a very interesting 120 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:18,880 track wonderful thought that you've raised it's true that there are not as many ad filmmakers 121 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:24,200 one would think who have moved successfully into feature films. One of the reasons apart 122 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:28,960 from all the creative reasons apart from the you know formats are completely different 123 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:34,800 etc. I think one difference is also that when you're making an ad film it probably takes 124 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:41,080 a month probably or at the most a couple of months. So you are you are seeing your end 125 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:46,520 product at the end of a month or two months. So you're apart from you know the money or 126 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:52,680 whatever you the creative satisfaction that you get from seeing your product over is pretty 127 00:12:52,680 --> 00:12:59,760 quick. The turnaround time for a feature film is something that a lot of people don't realize 128 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:05,500 how how torturous it can be. I mean the minimum I would say something like three years right. 129 00:13:05,500 --> 00:13:11,400 So we're talking about from the germ of an idea into the final day when the film is in 130 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:16,440 the theaters on Friday. It can take a minimum of three years it can take up to five years 131 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:21,720 or even longer. So you have the instance of John Matthew who took I think almost five 132 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:28,740 years to get his film into the theaters who was an ad filmmaker and yeah that could be 133 00:13:28,740 --> 00:13:34,200 one of the reasons. I'm not so sure about this of course but I'm just hazarding a guess 134 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:39,460 at it. But it's very interesting I think the questions that you're posing are really generating 135 00:13:39,460 --> 00:13:44,920 a lot of interesting ideas a lot of interesting thoughts along the way. You actually found 136 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:50,400 the time to do a PhD as well when was this? That was completely accidental I mean it was 137 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:56,900 okay you know when I started doing the lectures there were certain concepts that developed 138 00:13:56,900 --> 00:14:04,040 along the way the concepts like reality plus etc. Then one of the IM professors said you 139 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:09,920 know you should actually be sort of ensuring a kind of copyright on he was just making 140 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:15,040 a casual conversation you should make sure that these concepts are yours. So then I said 141 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:19,100 I had no idea what this was all about and where it would lead and he said okay so why 142 00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:25,160 don't one of the ways you can do that to protect your concepts is to do a PhD on it. Really 143 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:33,120 had no idea that it would be so terrible. But I took those concepts of mine reality 144 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:38,820 plus and you know Afghanistan syndrome and all that and I spoke to a lot of people in 145 00:14:38,820 --> 00:14:43,700 industry. For instance I had a fascinating interview with Narayan Murthy. So he spoke 146 00:14:43,700 --> 00:14:49,680 about how these concepts apply even in his area emphasis you know in IT and of course 147 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:55,360 I spoke to people like Javed Films who spoke about reality plus in films and of course 148 00:14:55,360 --> 00:15:02,400 I did speak to marketing people advertising people as well how these concepts translate. 149 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:09,840 So the PhD was completely accidental and for anybody who's contemplating doing a PhD be 150 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:15,000 warned that it's not an easy journey at all. I think my wife and daughter have just completed 151 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:22,920 it and they have just barely survived. Okay so it runs in the family. So the thing is 152 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:29,160 that you had some kind of an idea but you were willing to experiment with whatever came 153 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:35,080 your way or was there some kind of a specific direction that you thought you were evolving 154 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:40,680 towards. There was definitely a direction for instance if you see I think somewhere 155 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:46,760 very very early on I had written down I found it fairly recently. I think to some extent 156 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:52,400 that this comes from a family background. The family is full of crazy idealists you 157 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:58,060 know I have a cousin who did his IIT and then did his PhD at John Hopkins and then spent 158 00:15:58,060 --> 00:16:05,040 nearly 20 to 30 years fighting female foeticide in India. So but he always ensured that he 159 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:11,780 was financially secure. I think so to that extent we've always made sure that we do very 160 00:16:11,780 --> 00:16:17,440 idealistic things. The idealistic thing can be you know in different areas but we always 161 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:22,400 make sure that we are financially secure. So I found a note somewhere where I'd written 162 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:29,760 that once I have this much it's not literally this much in the bank but something like that 163 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:34,920 then I will start experimenting and doing things that I want and I'll always be grateful 164 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:42,600 to advertising in that sense. I think advertising provided all of us I think a kind of safe 165 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:49,960 avenue you know where we could use our talents in ways that we didn't really expect and which 166 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:58,100 actually you know also ensured a fairly comfortable life and then once the financial aspects were 167 00:16:58,100 --> 00:17:02,800 out of the way which is what I tell students as well that even if you're taking risks whether 168 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:07,900 it's about making a feature film or whether it's launching a product etc. There's something 169 00:17:07,900 --> 00:17:13,240 called an affordable risk is a part of you know entrepreneurship management. There's 170 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:17,640 something called affordable risk that means most entrepreneurs look as though they're 171 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:24,080 taking huge risks but they're taking affordable risks. So when Steve Jobs started his company 172 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:29,740 it looked as though oh he was jumping into the unknown but he had a home he had parents 173 00:17:29,740 --> 00:17:35,280 who are looking after him he wouldn't have really lost out much. Similarly if Samsung 174 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:41,640 was to start say a random new product an airline today they would start it if they know that 175 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:46,120 they can absorb the loss that can come if it collapses. So that's something called an 176 00:17:46,120 --> 00:17:53,020 affordable risk and I think to some extent I mean I'm not saying that there are people 177 00:17:53,020 --> 00:18:01,200 who take incredibly risky jumps and who win at that and that's fantastic but I think if 178 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:08,920 you have families and if you have responsibilities etc. I think it probably is better to take 179 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:15,000 an affordable risk. It's a wonderful concept because in terms of risk taking affordability 180 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:24,200 is not seen as one of the criterion for qualification. It's normally seen as you take huge risks 181 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:30,080 or you take minimal risks but when you put it within the context of affordability you 182 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:35,800 know one of the things about affordability is age. You can take risks at a certain point 183 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:41,000 in your life because you're young which may not be possible you know let's say later on 184 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:48,920 in life. So do you think that the average you meet with a lot of students what has been 185 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:55,000 the kind of change that you have observed over let's say generations of students in 186 00:18:55,000 --> 00:19:03,460 marketing as to how they approach their career, what are their needs in life and how do they 187 00:19:03,460 --> 00:19:08,520 view the future? Actually continuing on the thought of about the risk and you know what 188 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:13,080 the marketing students today face and you know over the earlier generation. I would 189 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:18,960 say it's not something that I would tell every marketing student but if you see young couples 190 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:23,920 today generally when young couples get married you shouldn't be taking too much for risk 191 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:29,560 because you know you're setting up a family etc. But actually that's not quite true. Today 192 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:36,720 generally both are working right. So when one person has a pretty secure job with a 193 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:42,200 you know fixed income coming in the other can take a risk. It could be the man, it could 194 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:47,440 be the woman, it could be you know either of them but it's possible for that to happen. 195 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:52,680 And when it comes to other changes I think one of the wonderful things that is happening 196 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:58,300 today is there's so much structure. There's a syllabus for marketing, there's syllabus 197 00:19:58,300 --> 00:20:03,680 for marketing communications, there's even a syllabus for event management right. Now 198 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:08,300 these are industries that I mean if you take event management for instance which is very 199 00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:13,600 much a part of marketing communication. It didn't really exist earlier. The industry 200 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:19,660 didn't exist. So when the industry didn't exist obviously even the academic aspects 201 00:20:19,660 --> 00:20:24,380 of it didn't exist. Then I saw the growth of the event management industry and today 202 00:20:24,380 --> 00:20:30,280 I'm seeing event management is being taught in management schools. It's a proper part 203 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:38,680 of the syllabus etc. So marketing students are learning a lot in the school itself which 204 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:45,340 is fantastic. Something that's wonderful. Of course as and Venu you are really a wonderful 205 00:20:45,340 --> 00:20:50,440 example of this. The world of marketing is changing so much. These students have to keep 206 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:57,840 abreast of all the changes that occur every almost every day right. I mean look at chat 207 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:05,180 GPT. I'm not quite sure. It's definitely changed changing academics because every professor 208 00:21:05,180 --> 00:21:10,120 is wondering how you know you're going to tell whether a student has done his own work 209 00:21:10,120 --> 00:21:14,880 or whether it's her work that's come from chat GPT. Even from the world of marketing 210 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:21,480 there's so much such a huge difference. There was this lovely I think was it Emirates. There 211 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:29,440 was an Emirates commercial which had a Christmas ad. Okay. Showing reindeers pulling their 212 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:35,880 right the plane right. The flight. Yeah literally the flight takes off with the reindeers. Though 213 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:40,720 that was simply added on later in special. It was a simple idea but it was beautifully 214 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:47,360 executed. Now I was just looking at it and I was thinking okay now there are two aspects 215 00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:53,640 to it. The idea was brilliant but if it had been made in the wrong way it wouldn't have 216 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:58,720 gone viral. And what do I mean by the wrong way. If an professional ad filmmaker had made 217 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,440 it in the professional ad filmmaking way. That means there would have been beautiful 218 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:08,160 lighting there would have been music there would have been a voiceover there would have 219 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:13,680 been it would have been a beautiful commercial but nobody would have shared it. Yes. The 220 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:19,040 charm of the commercial was that it looked like an amateur video which had been shot 221 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:24,560 from the airport window. Right. I think it was you know as though somebody had just shot 222 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:29,080 it casually. Because of that oh everybody shares it and they say oh I'm not sharing 223 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:35,120 a commercial I'm sharing an interesting video. Yes. In fact these things are really what 224 00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:40,240 have changed because earlier a company had to pay to get its commercials out there but 225 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:47,640 the smart ones have found that they can get you know practically unlimited exposure provided 226 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:53,520 the ad provided they don't retain that huge grip over what the brand should be. It won't 227 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:58,320 be entirely to your satisfaction it won't give you complete control but that is the 228 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:03,160 whole point you know how do you do this. And I think that is one of the things that companies 229 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:08,760 also will have to learn over time. Your brand image is now shaped as much by the consumers 230 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:16,480 who consume it as it is by the custodians of the brand. Absolutely. And I think so I 231 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:23,040 think you know I think young students and people young can really learn from you in 232 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:29,640 this way. I think what I've seen is that you grew up in the traditional forms of advertising 233 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:35,280 you you learnt your craft there and then you completely relearned all the rules and you 234 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:40,280 are enjoying it thoroughly and you're taking full advantage of that. And that's something 235 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:45,480 that I would tell every student of mine to do because what's going to happen five years 236 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:50,400 from now or 10 years from now things are going to keep changing. And if they don't keep abreast 237 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:55,600 of it. OK. At this point in time young students may feel that OK I'm abreast of everything 238 00:23:55,600 --> 00:24:00,280 I know how this works I know how that works. But will you know how it works five years 239 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:05,000 from now. Will you know how it works 10 years from now. If you're not going to keep abreast 240 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:10,480 of it. I think marketing is one area where if you don't keep abreast of things you're 241 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:15,880 just going to get knocked out very very. And that has huge implications for a career. Right. 242 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:22,120 Because if every subject of every field is changing fairly quickly it means that your 243 00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:29,320 leave a for making money off a certain skill or knowledge that you have is shrinking. I 244 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:35,120 remember in the early days when you recorded and you want to do a studio and he told you 245 00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:38,960 that he bought a piece of equipment and for the next seven eight years he could use the 246 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:45,280 same thing. It was no way that you know the same thing will hold true though what you're 247 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:51,760 doing doesn't change dramatically what you change and how unless that little touch of 248 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:58,600 the reindeers pulling the flight off the ground. Absolutely. Is is something that people with 249 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:05,280 limited exposure to films could never have done if they didn't have the tools. I'm sure 250 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:10,560 you've seen some of these things where editing is so tight that this guy he throws himself 251 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:15,920 forward and he suddenly becomes a banana. He's sitting at a table. Yes. So when you 252 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:22,120 look at it you say how is it done. And this is done with low tech tools. It's not absolutely. 253 00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:28,420 And I think what you said has amazing significance for how people should plan their careers. 254 00:25:28,420 --> 00:25:34,280 That is long term is important but the long term is a series of short terms. Oh I'm sure 255 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:39,360 that's a very very very nice way to put it. That's really a nice. What are some of the 256 00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:45,120 things their concerns in the class right. What are the things they are worried about. 257 00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:52,360 Is it that choice tends to make things even more difficult or does it make it. Yeah. Again 258 00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:58,700 a fascinating question. I think you know it's definitely true that you know our parents 259 00:25:58,700 --> 00:26:04,320 had a rough time. You know you remember the old joke that you know they climbed three 260 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:11,440 miles uphill to school and they climbed three miles uphill to school back home as well. 261 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,040 And they swam across rivers to go to school. I mean it may have been some of it may have 262 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:20,960 been even a reality. And then we had it slightly easier. And today you know our children may 263 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:29,400 sometimes go in cars to be dropped at school etc. But are they under more pressure than 264 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:34,280 us. They are definitely under more pressure. And as you said I think one of the reasons 265 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:40,000 is definitely because there's too much choice. I mean and that can sound confusing but I 266 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:46,280 think there's even a marketing exercise marketing exercise that a company did. They had offered 267 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:54,880 I think 12 varieties of jam at a supermarket and the I think the customers were fairly 268 00:26:54,880 --> 00:27:00,600 happy. And then I think they expanded it to some crazy figure like 120 varieties of jam. 269 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:05,320 And actually the customers were not happy. They were getting confused. They felt they 270 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:11,400 were missing out on something by buying one particular brand etc. So now imagine a student 271 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:19,320 being confronted with such a wide variety of choices all his life every time. And he's 272 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:26,040 also being exposed to so much. I mean you are being exposed to the best things in the 273 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:31,040 world. So even if somebody is making somebody is doing something reasonably well he's seeing 274 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,960 something immediately that's been done by somebody in New York or somebody in Hawaii 275 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:40,960 or somebody and that guy has done it much much better. So the standards have been raised 276 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:47,120 the choices are huge. So to some extent even though I mean students may be learning in 277 00:27:47,120 --> 00:27:51,960 a comfortable environment in an air conditioned classroom and all that and the fees that their 278 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:57,200 parents are paying are very high for MBA classes. But the challenges that they're going to face 279 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:03,720 are going to be really really tough. Their survival is not in question. You know they'll 280 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,280 always have a you know I mean most of them will have a roof over their heads food on 281 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:14,520 the table. But beyond that they will always be worried that am I missing out on something. 282 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:21,400 You know that will always be and that's something that to some extent I think that's where India 283 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:28,120 can maybe offer a kind of balance. I think the Western consumerism is something that 284 00:28:28,120 --> 00:28:33,560 we have all accepted which is cool which is fine which is something that is required because 285 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:39,960 it makes everybody progress. But to some extent Indian and Indian culture also helps you to 286 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:46,760 stay grounded that families are important that being at peace within yourself is important. 287 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:53,400 Even using examples like yoga and meditation etc etc just to ground yourself in your own 288 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:58,520 personal reality even as the world is in chaos. You know the world around you is going to 289 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:05,320 be in chaos. There's a lovely Sanskrit sloka. I've forgotten the original Sanskrit but the 290 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:13,160 thought is that my soul dances on even in the middle of chaos. Okay. You know so to that 291 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:19,480 extent I think India and Indians and Indian culture etc. I think Narayan Murthy said that 292 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:24,480 as a matter of fact in the interview that I mean we had a very wide-ranging conversation 293 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:31,000 and he said that see we Indians tend to change on the surface. When the British came we wore 294 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:36,520 western clothes and we spoke English but we went right home took off our slippers at the 295 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:44,520 door changed into our mund and lungi and kurta and you know and went to our tables and ate 296 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:51,400 with our hands off stainless steel plates. To some extent the accepting change accepting 297 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:57,160 change and at the same time staying grounded is going to be very very important for young 298 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:02,120 people because they're going to see it as the Sanskrit sloka said there's going to be 299 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:09,400 a world of chaos around you but your soul should keep dancing on. It's not easy at all 300 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:15,160 but it's interesting that the person who you know was at the head of Disney and then left 301 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:21,360 and now he's come back Bob Iger he's come back to head Disney streaming is very clearly 302 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:28,880 saying that I want to cut down choice. He says I'd prefer to have a few films or a few 303 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:36,840 serials that people definitely want to watch rather than give them a wealth of brilliant 304 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:42,560 serials and TV on which they have to keep trying to make up their minds which you know 305 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:50,360 in an era of plenty invoking scarcity seems the craziest thing of all and yet it has logic. 306 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:56,360 That's a wonderful thought again and I'm so glad that you brought it up. I think even 307 00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:03,520 if you see I see comments you know on social media that I'm spending so that people are 308 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:09,760 spending so much time on Netflix trying to decide which which movie or which series to 309 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:15,580 see they spend too much time you know trying to decide that rather than actually watching 310 00:31:15,580 --> 00:31:23,800 it. Okay. Yeah so I think the Disney philosophy the Disney strategy while it may seem very 311 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:29,640 counterintuitive it's I think it's a brilliant thought and I would really like to see it 312 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:36,120 you know how it runs. See how they actually execute on that. Yes. I have a comment here 313 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:42,840 and take a look Sajith Kumar has said how important is the art of story storytelling 314 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:50,760 versus the characters in an ad have influences changed the advertising landscape. Very very 315 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:56,960 lovely question Sajith. Actually if you again you can see the evolution of characters in 316 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:03,200 advertising earlier whenever we chose you know when we did video tests like we did for 317 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:08,080 Venu etc when we did video tests for models we would just take the best looking model 318 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:15,240 and that was it then I think the creative directors like Venu and agencies and marketers 319 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:20,760 all realize that no you don't just need a good looking model you need somebody who is 320 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:27,640 a character maybe he she's a cranky wife maybe she is a humorous wife maybe she's a very 321 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:32,480 strong wife maybe she's whatever or you know so you need a character rather than just a 322 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:40,120 good looking housewife. So in that sense the the stories the storytelling itself began 323 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:46,920 to change because we are you revolving the story of surf or whichever product we're talking 324 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:52,360 about around the character. So I would say obviously you know the first one probably 325 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:58,300 the first one to realize that was surf and levers where they said you know you have this 326 00:32:58,300 --> 00:33:05,760 very tough shrewd housewife who calculates everything and then decide that surf is the 327 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:12,240 right detergent to buy. You know she's not a goody goody perfect housewife for the best 328 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:19,200 looking housewife she's just quite sharp she's quite strident and she won over the hearts 329 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:26,280 of so many people. So that is so to that extent the introduction of characters has definitely 330 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:32,800 changed the storytelling aspect and how have influencers changed it I mean they've changed 331 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:40,160 it so much I was looking at something that some somebody some influencer had posted about 332 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:45,200 some chair if an ad filmmaker had shot that commercial we would have shot it with perfect 333 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,000 lighting we would have made it up we would have made up her hair and it would have been 334 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:54,100 a perfect commercial and it wouldn't have worked. This girl just sat on that chair and 335 00:33:54,100 --> 00:34:00,280 she made some some comment about her boyfriend and all that said something about the chair 336 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:06,160 I don't even know how she connected the boyfriend and chair but she did some weird you know 337 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:13,680 very funny way and it worked it worked brilliantly. You know this was in Singapore and I think 338 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:21,080 influencers work their magic in a very very subtle unconventional way but you as long 339 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:27,160 as they're believable the moment they cross that I mean obviously you know that influencers 340 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:33,520 are paid but the moment it starts looking like commercial oh you know here I'm holding 341 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:39,160 the back and you know then it's not going to work. The influencers magic works when 342 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:44,440 it looks as though you know she's just sitting before a laptop and saying oh you know this 343 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:50,600 is a great product and she's doing her usual crazy stuff and she may not be made up she 344 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:56,840 may not be even dressed well she may be just in a very untidy bedroom but it will work. 345 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:02,880 And exactly like you said army of YouTube influencers who talk about beauty they themselves 346 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:08,920 may not be conventional beauties by any yardstick the techniques that they propagate are not 347 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:15,880 by any means what a well-known brand would actually advise but they have legends of followers 348 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:20,320 and they have a whole lot of people tuning in to what they have to say. It has become 349 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:25,760 a career option which you would never think of let's say 10 or 15 years ago. Okay it 350 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:30,280 extracts a certain toll because it means that you have to keep innovating the pressure is 351 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:36,080 huge. I don't know if you've heard of this person called physics wala? No no tell me 352 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:43,040 Vinu. That's a it's almost like the Indian version of what Salman Khan did the Khan Academy 353 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:49,120 so there was this guy who started teaching physics on YouTube in Hindi and English with 354 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:55,720 just a blackboard he's now got huge amounts of financing. Wonderful. So wonderful and he 355 00:35:55,720 --> 00:36:01,040 did it almost as a measure of desperation this is what I can do I can take a phone I 356 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:06,480 can put it in front of me and then he learned that is the other great aspect that they don't 357 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:12,360 when they start they don't know filmmaking they don't know pedagogy they don't know how 358 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:17,840 to get across to students but what they have is the connect they seem like one of us it 359 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:22,880 seems like I can talk to this person which is why it possibly why it works. These are 360 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:29,840 not career options that one would have even thought of 20 years ago so YouTube has completely 361 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:36,600 changed yardstick by which careers are formed and changed so there are people who can have 362 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:42,600 classes on gardening and still make a decent amount of money which wouldn't have been the 363 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:47,920 case earlier but we will still have of course conventional classrooms and universities and 364 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:54,080 degrees because there is validation which is required for a whole lot of jobs it's as 365 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:59,960 if you can't make a decision without some kind of validation from a source that you 366 00:36:59,960 --> 00:37:06,520 trust. And the universities the way the universities are working definitely will get disrupted 367 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:12,320 yes it's just waiting to happen to some extent the pandemic actually helped in this sense 368 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:19,160 it sort of broadened the universities to move into digital into the digital realm and into 369 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:26,320 online degrees etc and that's going to be really fast-tracked. I remember I think we 370 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:32,160 discussed once a long time ago about some somebody who said that maybe I can learn I 371 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:40,000 don't need to go to a film school I can learn filmmaking watching YouTube videos etc and 372 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:46,400 I can also work in a film set that means you know actually work in a film set so universities 373 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:52,260 have to be competing with that now if universities have to compete with that they have to change 374 00:37:52,260 --> 00:37:58,540 as well they have to you know give students give parents of students some kind of validation 375 00:37:58,540 --> 00:38:04,040 that what we are teaching is going to be more valuable than that and it's not easy it's 376 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:12,200 definitely not it is the universities are going to be disrupted at some point I think 377 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:19,080 Amazons of the world will I think start universities of their own and they will be creating universities 378 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:24,980 which which cater to the needs of the employers directly I mean so you'll have multinationals 379 00:38:24,980 --> 00:38:31,680 who own universities and those universities will be very geared to jobs so that that will 380 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:38,480 happen of course there is so much scope for other other kinds of learning as well in the 381 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:43,320 sense when you're learning literature or when you're learning the classics or when you're 382 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:49,600 learning sociology or when you're learning you know all those wonderful areas will would 383 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:56,880 remain somewhat untouched but these are all guesses that one is hasardic universities 384 00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:01,660 are also places where change is a little more difficult not because universities are also 385 00:39:01,660 --> 00:39:06,520 paradox and they don't want change but because parents are conservative when it comes to 386 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:13,600 their children now every parent wants to ensure the best possible education for their child 387 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:18,160 and so when they are making decisions for their child it is unlikely that your parents 388 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:24,640 will say hey go out there and work and learn from YouTube videos rather than go for a degree 389 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:31,960 some I think dying period where universities will be able to continue without having too 390 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:37,920 much drastic change but that change will slowly happen in the workplace as well to some extent 391 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:44,680 as parents who are very conservative and physical jobs what used to be considered blue collar 392 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:49,240 I was reading the other day that Walmart for example pays its drivers somewhere in the 393 00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:54,560 region of 75 to 90 thousand dollars per year to start off with and that starts off with 394 00:39:54,560 --> 00:40:00,000 a four-week course so they spent 10 years if they've got 10 years experience they obviously 395 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:08,480 make probably as much as a graduate who's gone to a big university so do you think those 396 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:15,640 opposing forces of physical comfort on the job is something that's going to define how 397 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:16,960 careers evolve. 398 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:22,180 I saw that happening in Singapore because in the early days in Singapore I mean it to 399 00:40:22,180 --> 00:40:29,280 some extent all Asians tend to want their children to have degrees postgraduate degrees 400 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:36,000 work in an office etc to some extent there was a certain hesitation for parents to want 401 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:41,040 blue collar jobs for their children so you could see that Singapore the Singapore Singapore 402 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:46,400 is very tightly run by the government itself right so initially this Singapore government 403 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:51,120 was very comfortable with that and they were encouraging parents and encouraging students 404 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:56,600 in that direction but now they're going the other way they are realizing that oh there 405 00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:02,040 will be students who will be happier number one in blue collar jobs number two they will 406 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:09,000 be better paid at blue collar jobs than at some of the white collar jobs and so that's 407 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:14,680 something that you know as I said the Singapore government tends to shape the thinking of 408 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:19,960 its citizens so they are now trying to you know inculcate respect for blue collar jobs 409 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:26,200 among in Singapore which is something that I think to some extent in Asian societies 410 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:33,920 India China Singapore the blue collar jobs tend to get neglected because parents don't 411 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:40,280 want their children's going in that direction but they are very highly paid a security guard 412 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:53,680 at Cambridge makes as much as a lecturer you know so it's quite ironic that poor lecturer 413 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,960 has spent all his life doing his PhD you know. 414 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:02,760 Which brings up the other question you know what is satisfaction in a job is it the money 415 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:08,200 or is it the intellectual curiosity some people are just not you know they're happy doing 416 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:15,320 the same thing over and over again so how does one figure out if one likes a routine 417 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:21,160 and not straying from it too much you know it did not be that every person has to figure 418 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:26,600 out the next wave of where the world will go or to change the world as you know most 419 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:32,560 companies today would like to believe but it's they're satisfied with their lot and 420 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:37,720 can make a very comfortable living which used to be that of the factory worker during a 421 00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:38,720 certain period. 422 00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:44,640 I remember there was this student who was working I mean after finishing his MBA he 423 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:49,360 was working at Nielsen and everybody was very thrilled because that was a very plump job 424 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:54,560 and you know his parents were happy his teachers were happy his classmates were proud of him 425 00:42:54,560 --> 00:43:00,800 and then I remember him bringing me and saying you know I want to be interned with in ad 426 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:07,000 filmmaking and I said you have this lovely steady job where you know you know where your 427 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:12,920 next meal is coming from and you know you're venturing into something that's a little more 428 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:19,880 uncertain and he said no you know I really enjoyed the creative aspects that we know 429 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:25,720 when we were doing our MBA and this is something I'm just not enjoying it. 430 00:43:25,720 --> 00:43:30,080 He was reasonably good at it that's why he got the job but he left it and I remember 431 00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:34,080 being a little apprehensive at that point in time because not everybody can make it 432 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:41,520 as an ad filmmaker but today he's doing well he's happy he's it will have to I guess you 433 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:49,880 know depend on each person I think yeah each person is a life and a career in itself and 434 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:57,400 of course education and universities and MBA programs like ours as well to some extent 435 00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:04,040 will straight jacket you will say these are the careers these are what's available this 436 00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:12,320 is probably what's best for you in terms of security in terms of you know immediate financial 437 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:18,040 gains etc but I think everybody has to look deep within themselves and then decide that 438 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:23,760 okay and I said there is something called an affordable risk you should take risk when 439 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:28,520 it's affordable when it's I think okay so here's another question. 440 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:35,000 What inspired your management concepts any advice to management rookies on how to what 441 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:40,640 inspired the management concepts was definitely my years in advertising in ad filmmaking I 442 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:47,400 remember for instance companies telling me it was the chairman of a company of a very 443 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:52,440 big multinational company which was making this hair color and I remember calling it 444 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:57,320 a hair dye in those days kept calling it a hair dye and he said you know I just want 445 00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:03,040 to correct you I we don't make hair dye we make hair color and I said it's just the difference 446 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:08,960 of one word isn't it why does it matter so much he said that the change of that one word 447 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:15,440 from hair dye to hair color has meant millions of dollars in sales and that's when I came 448 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:21,000 up with the idea of reality plus that means your reality of the hair color the product 449 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:25,480 is the same the packaging is the same everything is the same but instead of calling it hair 450 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:32,200 dye you're now calling it hair color so that is reality plus and that is how the concept 451 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:38,480 of reality plus came and which and I also remember that one of our again one of our 452 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:45,040 multinational client came to us and said that you know he was making this milk you know 453 00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:49,720 this powders which you add to milk drinks you know and he said our powder is genuinely 454 00:45:49,720 --> 00:45:55,080 very nutritious it is the best in the market and he's saying he was saying I'm not plugging 455 00:45:55,080 --> 00:46:00,920 my own product I know that if you take it chemically it is the best product in the market 456 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:07,440 but how do I convince consumers about that so in his case it was almost like reality 457 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:12,040 minus that means the reality of his product that it was far better than all the other 458 00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:18,720 products in the market but the other products were doing you know better marketing etc etc 459 00:46:18,720 --> 00:46:25,040 so the marketing concepts come from actually practicing what you see out there in the market 460 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:31,400 place well really fascinating how you entered Tashkent and taught there for some time you've 461 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:36,240 taught in so many the book you've written the peddler of soaps which became a vessel 462 00:46:36,240 --> 00:46:46,400 I don't think we've touched upon because we I think we went deep into a few aspects of 463 00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:52,200 you know what careers are today what jobs are today and I think it's fascinating how 464 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:59,880 you know your combination of academics and practical experience in marketing has shaped 465 00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:05,840 so much of your thought and helped you to bridge something which was essentially not 466 00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:10,600 you know it's almost as if these were silos earlier people from academics would rarely 467 00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:16,000 come into contact with people who are in the industry and to industries academics were 468 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:23,520 people who only theorized so I think you've kind of set out a path which says that the 469 00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:32,000 the lines that divide careers are going to be even less you know defined as we go forward 470 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:39,600 because people are getting to be filmmakers and influencers and writers and photographers 471 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:48,800 because that's how the new world is like absolutely you yeah you can't stop at one so is there 472 00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,340 something that you would like to leave us with is there something that you would like 473 00:47:52,340 --> 00:47:58,680 to tell young people who are on the you know the early part of their career I think we 474 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:04,440 are living in the becomes absolutely we are living in the most exciting in the most wonderful 475 00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:14,200 phase of human history ever it's not something just that I'm saying that is optimistic etc. 476 00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:18,280 This is based on fact there's a whole book written by somebody from Harvard you know 477 00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:24,960 by professor Steven Pinker who said that this is really the best phase of human history 478 00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:31,160 human terms of poverty becoming less in terms of democracy growth of democracy in terms 479 00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:38,000 of equality in terms of women's equality in terms of every aspect of life now all this 480 00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:45,200 wonderful aspects of life also translate into this is the best place to do business this 481 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:51,160 is the best place to do to start your own company this is the best time to make money 482 00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:58,480 as well to some extent there are even I know it doesn't sound very because we are always 483 00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:04,560 listening to bad news but there are even less wars today because people have begun to realize 484 00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:09,560 that you can actually trade with somebody who's alive you can't trade with somebody 485 00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:14,680 whom you've killed and that's a very harsh truth but it's a commercial truth so Steven 486 00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:20,920 Picker's book is wonderful it means that we are living genuinely in a wonderful world 487 00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:28,120 we're living in a world that is at its best ever and which also means that this is a great 488 00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:33,000 time to be working this is a great time to do business is a great time to start your 489 00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:39,320 own business to make money as well as to enjoy your work thank you it's been wonderful having 490 00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:47,120 you on the show and thank you wonderful and I think we learn by itself my first job the 491 00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:55,720 podcast is a production from ideascape communications guest relations promotions and creative is 492 00:49:55,720 --> 00:50:02,760 managed by Deepa Ravi with occasional support by Vin Gopal Nair archiving and technical 493 00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:29,320 help is provided by LPS Jayachandran.