Our guest today is Professor Alby Anand Kurian, a global marketing practitioner and theorist.
Dr. Kurian has been featured among 30 marketing people in the world and is currently senior
faculty at Exeter University in the UK. With a career graph that encompasses scripting,
filmmaking, writing and teaching marketing at classrooms in IIM and FTII in India, as
well as in Singapore and now at Exeter University in the UK, he is truly creating a huge impact
in understanding marketing, both from an academic as well as a practitioner's perspective.
Welcome to my first job where we find out what drives people, how luck plays a role
and the lessons they've learnt. This is episode 9 and like every interesting career
journey it's full of twists, turns and insights. My name is Venu Gopal Nair. I am the host
of the podcast and CEO of Ideascape Communications, an advertising agency into branding, creative
and design. So settle in, sit back and enjoy the conversation. Dr. Alby Kurian is currently
in Cambridge and that's where he's speaking to us from.
Good morning Venu. It's morning out here in Cambridge in the UK and it's freezing cold
as well. So I'm glad to be able to even talk to somebody who's in a warmer climate.
Sometimes you wish you could parcel some of the heat and dust of Chennai or at least the
heat of Chennai to warm the colder areas of the UK.
Absolutely. UK is going through a particularly cold climate and it's going through some
rather rough times as well but we'll weather it I'm sure.
Okay so what is your new assignment at Exeter University going to be about?
I'll be joining Exeter on the 1st of March so I will be relocating to this town as well
and sometimes I think that I've got used to relocating. Somebody asked me where's home
and I said I was born in Calcutta but I'm a Keralite then I schooled in Bombay then
I worked in Bombay nearly very very long time then of course I went to New York then I went
to Singapore. I taught all over the world. I know China very well and now I'm here in
the UK and only because for some personal reasons I couldn't go to Africa. I really
wanted to go to Africa actually. That was the one continent I really wanted to explore
but now of course I'm here and at Exeter I will be teaching marketing and marketing communications,
marketing strategy. As usual I think I hope to introduce some rather unconventional methods.
One of the schools that I taught in we actually founded a student led agency and we had a
student led channel as well so we are hoping, Exeter is also hoping that I will be able
to introduce some of those unconventional elements into academics as well and as you
said yes I tried to bring the world of marketing into the classroom which is something that
I think all business schools should do. We haven't been doing it too well. It's still
slightly theoretical you know make it more and more hands-on you know so I call it something
the marketing agency simulation that means every classroom is a marketing agent like
the kind you had. And it's good for students to be doing it so early on while they're studying
so that they get a kind of introduction to what life is going to be. So where did it
begin for you influences and the early influences in terms of how you planned your career or
how did it come about? Well marketing was at its infancy or at least marketing communications
to some extent was at its infancy everything was growing around us the multinationals
were coming in so we didn't really know for instance that there were ad filmmakers who
could make a pretty tidy fortune so it all happened to some extent by accident. I started
out in management as most of us did because we didn't know anything else then I moved
into an advertising agency Saatchi and Saatchi where I was again in account management but
at that point in time what I found really interesting was the creative side which is
where you've been all your life you know and which I really envy and I remember you know
spending a lot of the time with the creative guys and I think I was you know irritating
them more than anything else but that was where I really absorbed more about advertising
and marketing communications than really in account management though the account management
guys will kill me for this. Okay, do you see that as a clear line or do you see it as a
fairly broad set of changes that happen? I think you know to most people it would all
seem very abrupt and very you know quite drastic and dramatic and to me it seemed very natural
and I was moving within advertising into the more creative areas at that time. My first
job was scripting for ad filmmakers and I think at that point in time you know advertising
was also growing everybody was learning the mechanics of it and then of course there was
one ad filmmaker who said hey I can't make this particular ad film but I've told the
agency that you know I know the scriptwriter who wrote the script so he'll probably be
do a good job for you and then the agency took me on and then of course it just kept
you know rolling all the way. Which was the film? I think it was for United Breweries
Company because I remember it was something to a lot of drinks and you know a lot of stuff
like that yeah. Right but writing a film and making a film are two different so how do
you think you manage the transition you know because they think that filmmaking is utter
chaos and there's a lot of you know planning and production a whole lot of other things
which need to be done and they're happy doing letting someone else bring a brand film to
life it may be different with feature film producers but ad films are generally you know
there's a lot of work involved in and it is very controlled creativity. That's a very
interesting thought Venu I really I mean it's made me think about it and if I had to hazard
or guess I would say a director especially in ad films is a scriptwriter with a bit of
management skills. Okay. That means even the scriptwriter has the ad film in his head he
has it in his head but he doesn't know how to translate it that means he doesn't know
oh I have to brief the cinematographer this way I have to work with the editor this way
I have to work with the music director he probably can hear the music in his head but
he doesn't know how to get it out of the music director. So I mean I'm just thinking of this
as you asked me the question it's a scriptwriter who has a certain amount of management skills
I know again this is a thought that nobody would really come up with a director is somebody
who has management skills because you're managing a very very talented people who are specialists
in their own right. The music director knows more about music than you the cinematographer
knows more about cinematography than you the editor knows more about editing than you and
yet you have to get your point of view to a certain extent you're imposing your point
of view on them so you need a lot of very very strong people management skills to be
able to do that and I think to some extent that is where maybe some very highly talented
students who you know for instance have met at an FTI they may have very high creative
skills but maybe they're not able to translate some of those skills on to celluloid. What
was the process like when you were into making or creating marketing communications was teaching
still you know something that got you interested or was something that you parked for a little
while while you concentrated on filming. I think you know I come from a long line of
teachers I think some five generations or something so maybe there's something some
kind of gene floating around somewhere there but I think I remember I think the first lecture
I did was one of at one of the IIMs I then became the first Indian to do lectures at
IIM which is a management institute at the film institute which is obviously about film
and at the National Institute of Design so they were quite disparate institutions it
became interesting because I was teaching about marketing and I was teaching about filmmaking
to IIM students to management students how films can introduce your message etc etc and
I was teaching advertising to feature film students. Okay that's quite a shift. I remember
a very interesting incident I went to FDI on the invitation of the head of the direction
department they are highly talented individuals very egocentric as well you know probably
the best taken from you know thousands of students who applied. I think a majority of
the students asked me why should we learn ad filmmaking we are watching one great film
every evening why should we learn how to make ad films. I said that look you're going to
enter filmmaking and you're going to struggle if you look at the statistics you're going
to probably struggle for something like five to ten years if you can make ad films you
are ensuring that you can make a comfortable living you're also learning your craft you're
learning how to shoot you're learning how to edit you're learning how to do music and
you're working with the best professionals with with very generous budgets so you're
learning at the expense of you know these huge multinationals. It's a second line of
income which you shouldn't discount. The interesting thing is that the Whistling Woods is one of
the institutes and Film and Television Institute is the other and out of all the students I
think quite a few of them finally became ad filmmakers and they were they became almost
full-time ad filmmakers and I remember you know meeting them recently and I said look
this is not what I meant I meant that you should you know do ad films as a way to sustain
yourself not to you know get comfortable and you know relax and not worry about feature
filmmaking at all. So some of them have gone back but quite a few of them have become full-time
ad filmmakers which I'm not happy to see at all. But do you think there is a fundamental
difference between the way ad films are created because there are very few people who have
made a transition from ad filmmaking to feature films because you see a few examples but there
have also been instances where ad films essentially are about communication which is cut down
to its you know a lot of stereotypes are used or archetypes are used whereas films allow
for development of character. There is a difference in how a scene plays out or how it's conceived
but I think we're going more into a discussion of film. No and I think that's a very interesting
track wonderful thought that you've raised it's true that there are not as many ad filmmakers
one would think who have moved successfully into feature films. One of the reasons apart
from all the creative reasons apart from the you know formats are completely different
etc. I think one difference is also that when you're making an ad film it probably takes
a month probably or at the most a couple of months. So you are you are seeing your end
product at the end of a month or two months. So you're apart from you know the money or
whatever you the creative satisfaction that you get from seeing your product over is pretty
quick. The turnaround time for a feature film is something that a lot of people don't realize
how how torturous it can be. I mean the minimum I would say something like three years right.
So we're talking about from the germ of an idea into the final day when the film is in
the theaters on Friday. It can take a minimum of three years it can take up to five years
or even longer. So you have the instance of John Matthew who took I think almost five
years to get his film into the theaters who was an ad filmmaker and yeah that could be
one of the reasons. I'm not so sure about this of course but I'm just hazarding a guess
at it. But it's very interesting I think the questions that you're posing are really generating
a lot of interesting ideas a lot of interesting thoughts along the way. You actually found
the time to do a PhD as well when was this? That was completely accidental I mean it was
okay you know when I started doing the lectures there were certain concepts that developed
along the way the concepts like reality plus etc. Then one of the IM professors said you
know you should actually be sort of ensuring a kind of copyright on he was just making
a casual conversation you should make sure that these concepts are yours. So then I said
I had no idea what this was all about and where it would lead and he said okay so why
don't one of the ways you can do that to protect your concepts is to do a PhD on it. Really
had no idea that it would be so terrible. But I took those concepts of mine reality
plus and you know Afghanistan syndrome and all that and I spoke to a lot of people in
industry. For instance I had a fascinating interview with Narayan Murthy. So he spoke
about how these concepts apply even in his area emphasis you know in IT and of course
I spoke to people like Javed Films who spoke about reality plus in films and of course
I did speak to marketing people advertising people as well how these concepts translate.
So the PhD was completely accidental and for anybody who's contemplating doing a PhD be
warned that it's not an easy journey at all. I think my wife and daughter have just completed
it and they have just barely survived. Okay so it runs in the family. So the thing is
that you had some kind of an idea but you were willing to experiment with whatever came
your way or was there some kind of a specific direction that you thought you were evolving
towards. There was definitely a direction for instance if you see I think somewhere
very very early on I had written down I found it fairly recently. I think to some extent
that this comes from a family background. The family is full of crazy idealists you
know I have a cousin who did his IIT and then did his PhD at John Hopkins and then spent
nearly 20 to 30 years fighting female foeticide in India. So but he always ensured that he
was financially secure. I think so to that extent we've always made sure that we do very
idealistic things. The idealistic thing can be you know in different areas but we always
make sure that we are financially secure. So I found a note somewhere where I'd written
that once I have this much it's not literally this much in the bank but something like that
then I will start experimenting and doing things that I want and I'll always be grateful
to advertising in that sense. I think advertising provided all of us I think a kind of safe
avenue you know where we could use our talents in ways that we didn't really expect and which
actually you know also ensured a fairly comfortable life and then once the financial aspects were
out of the way which is what I tell students as well that even if you're taking risks whether
it's about making a feature film or whether it's launching a product etc. There's something
called an affordable risk is a part of you know entrepreneurship management. There's
something called affordable risk that means most entrepreneurs look as though they're
taking huge risks but they're taking affordable risks. So when Steve Jobs started his company
it looked as though oh he was jumping into the unknown but he had a home he had parents
who are looking after him he wouldn't have really lost out much. Similarly if Samsung
was to start say a random new product an airline today they would start it if they know that
they can absorb the loss that can come if it collapses. So that's something called an
affordable risk and I think to some extent I mean I'm not saying that there are people
who take incredibly risky jumps and who win at that and that's fantastic but I think if
you have families and if you have responsibilities etc. I think it probably is better to take
an affordable risk. It's a wonderful concept because in terms of risk taking affordability
is not seen as one of the criterion for qualification. It's normally seen as you take huge risks
or you take minimal risks but when you put it within the context of affordability you
know one of the things about affordability is age. You can take risks at a certain point
in your life because you're young which may not be possible you know let's say later on
in life. So do you think that the average you meet with a lot of students what has been
the kind of change that you have observed over let's say generations of students in
marketing as to how they approach their career, what are their needs in life and how do they
view the future? Actually continuing on the thought of about the risk and you know what
the marketing students today face and you know over the earlier generation. I would
say it's not something that I would tell every marketing student but if you see young couples
today generally when young couples get married you shouldn't be taking too much for risk
because you know you're setting up a family etc. But actually that's not quite true. Today
generally both are working right. So when one person has a pretty secure job with a
you know fixed income coming in the other can take a risk. It could be the man, it could
be the woman, it could be you know either of them but it's possible for that to happen.
And when it comes to other changes I think one of the wonderful things that is happening
today is there's so much structure. There's a syllabus for marketing, there's syllabus
for marketing communications, there's even a syllabus for event management right. Now
these are industries that I mean if you take event management for instance which is very
much a part of marketing communication. It didn't really exist earlier. The industry
didn't exist. So when the industry didn't exist obviously even the academic aspects
of it didn't exist. Then I saw the growth of the event management industry and today
I'm seeing event management is being taught in management schools. It's a proper part
of the syllabus etc. So marketing students are learning a lot in the school itself which
is fantastic. Something that's wonderful. Of course as and Venu you are really a wonderful
example of this. The world of marketing is changing so much. These students have to keep
abreast of all the changes that occur every almost every day right. I mean look at chat
GPT. I'm not quite sure. It's definitely changed changing academics because every professor
is wondering how you know you're going to tell whether a student has done his own work
or whether it's her work that's come from chat GPT. Even from the world of marketing
there's so much such a huge difference. There was this lovely I think was it Emirates. There
was an Emirates commercial which had a Christmas ad. Okay. Showing reindeers pulling their
right the plane right. The flight. Yeah literally the flight takes off with the reindeers. Though
that was simply added on later in special. It was a simple idea but it was beautifully
executed. Now I was just looking at it and I was thinking okay now there are two aspects
to it. The idea was brilliant but if it had been made in the wrong way it wouldn't have
gone viral. And what do I mean by the wrong way. If an professional ad filmmaker had made
it in the professional ad filmmaking way. That means there would have been beautiful
lighting there would have been music there would have been a voiceover there would have
been it would have been a beautiful commercial but nobody would have shared it. Yes. The
charm of the commercial was that it looked like an amateur video which had been shot
from the airport window. Right. I think it was you know as though somebody had just shot
it casually. Because of that oh everybody shares it and they say oh I'm not sharing
a commercial I'm sharing an interesting video. Yes. In fact these things are really what
have changed because earlier a company had to pay to get its commercials out there but
the smart ones have found that they can get you know practically unlimited exposure provided
the ad provided they don't retain that huge grip over what the brand should be. It won't
be entirely to your satisfaction it won't give you complete control but that is the
whole point you know how do you do this. And I think that is one of the things that companies
also will have to learn over time. Your brand image is now shaped as much by the consumers
who consume it as it is by the custodians of the brand. Absolutely. And I think so I
think you know I think young students and people young can really learn from you in
this way. I think what I've seen is that you grew up in the traditional forms of advertising
you you learnt your craft there and then you completely relearned all the rules and you
are enjoying it thoroughly and you're taking full advantage of that. And that's something
that I would tell every student of mine to do because what's going to happen five years
from now or 10 years from now things are going to keep changing. And if they don't keep abreast
of it. OK. At this point in time young students may feel that OK I'm abreast of everything
I know how this works I know how that works. But will you know how it works five years
from now. Will you know how it works 10 years from now. If you're not going to keep abreast
of it. I think marketing is one area where if you don't keep abreast of things you're
just going to get knocked out very very. And that has huge implications for a career. Right.
Because if every subject of every field is changing fairly quickly it means that your
leave a for making money off a certain skill or knowledge that you have is shrinking. I
remember in the early days when you recorded and you want to do a studio and he told you
that he bought a piece of equipment and for the next seven eight years he could use the
same thing. It was no way that you know the same thing will hold true though what you're
doing doesn't change dramatically what you change and how unless that little touch of
the reindeers pulling the flight off the ground. Absolutely. Is is something that people with
limited exposure to films could never have done if they didn't have the tools. I'm sure
you've seen some of these things where editing is so tight that this guy he throws himself
forward and he suddenly becomes a banana. He's sitting at a table. Yes. So when you
look at it you say how is it done. And this is done with low tech tools. It's not absolutely.
And I think what you said has amazing significance for how people should plan their careers.
That is long term is important but the long term is a series of short terms. Oh I'm sure
that's a very very very nice way to put it. That's really a nice. What are some of the
things their concerns in the class right. What are the things they are worried about.
Is it that choice tends to make things even more difficult or does it make it. Yeah. Again
a fascinating question. I think you know it's definitely true that you know our parents
had a rough time. You know you remember the old joke that you know they climbed three
miles uphill to school and they climbed three miles uphill to school back home as well.
And they swam across rivers to go to school. I mean it may have been some of it may have
been even a reality. And then we had it slightly easier. And today you know our children may
sometimes go in cars to be dropped at school etc. But are they under more pressure than
us. They are definitely under more pressure. And as you said I think one of the reasons
is definitely because there's too much choice. I mean and that can sound confusing but I
think there's even a marketing exercise marketing exercise that a company did. They had offered
I think 12 varieties of jam at a supermarket and the I think the customers were fairly
happy. And then I think they expanded it to some crazy figure like 120 varieties of jam.
And actually the customers were not happy. They were getting confused. They felt they
were missing out on something by buying one particular brand etc. So now imagine a student
being confronted with such a wide variety of choices all his life every time. And he's
also being exposed to so much. I mean you are being exposed to the best things in the
world. So even if somebody is making somebody is doing something reasonably well he's seeing
something immediately that's been done by somebody in New York or somebody in Hawaii
or somebody and that guy has done it much much better. So the standards have been raised
the choices are huge. So to some extent even though I mean students may be learning in
a comfortable environment in an air conditioned classroom and all that and the fees that their
parents are paying are very high for MBA classes. But the challenges that they're going to face
are going to be really really tough. Their survival is not in question. You know they'll
always have a you know I mean most of them will have a roof over their heads food on
the table. But beyond that they will always be worried that am I missing out on something.
You know that will always be and that's something that to some extent I think that's where India
can maybe offer a kind of balance. I think the Western consumerism is something that
we have all accepted which is cool which is fine which is something that is required because
it makes everybody progress. But to some extent Indian and Indian culture also helps you to
stay grounded that families are important that being at peace within yourself is important.
Even using examples like yoga and meditation etc etc just to ground yourself in your own
personal reality even as the world is in chaos. You know the world around you is going to
be in chaos. There's a lovely Sanskrit sloka. I've forgotten the original Sanskrit but the
thought is that my soul dances on even in the middle of chaos. Okay. You know so to that
extent I think India and Indians and Indian culture etc. I think Narayan Murthy said that
as a matter of fact in the interview that I mean we had a very wide-ranging conversation
and he said that see we Indians tend to change on the surface. When the British came we wore
western clothes and we spoke English but we went right home took off our slippers at the
door changed into our mund and lungi and kurta and you know and went to our tables and ate
with our hands off stainless steel plates. To some extent the accepting change accepting
change and at the same time staying grounded is going to be very very important for young
people because they're going to see it as the Sanskrit sloka said there's going to be
a world of chaos around you but your soul should keep dancing on. It's not easy at all
but it's interesting that the person who you know was at the head of Disney and then left
and now he's come back Bob Iger he's come back to head Disney streaming is very clearly
saying that I want to cut down choice. He says I'd prefer to have a few films or a few
serials that people definitely want to watch rather than give them a wealth of brilliant
serials and TV on which they have to keep trying to make up their minds which you know
in an era of plenty invoking scarcity seems the craziest thing of all and yet it has logic.
That's a wonderful thought again and I'm so glad that you brought it up. I think even
if you see I see comments you know on social media that I'm spending so that people are
spending so much time on Netflix trying to decide which which movie or which series to
see they spend too much time you know trying to decide that rather than actually watching
it. Okay. Yeah so I think the Disney philosophy the Disney strategy while it may seem very
counterintuitive it's I think it's a brilliant thought and I would really like to see it
you know how it runs. See how they actually execute on that. Yes. I have a comment here
and take a look Sajith Kumar has said how important is the art of story storytelling
versus the characters in an ad have influences changed the advertising landscape. Very very
lovely question Sajith. Actually if you again you can see the evolution of characters in
advertising earlier whenever we chose you know when we did video tests like we did for
Venu etc when we did video tests for models we would just take the best looking model
and that was it then I think the creative directors like Venu and agencies and marketers
all realize that no you don't just need a good looking model you need somebody who is
a character maybe he she's a cranky wife maybe she is a humorous wife maybe she's a very
strong wife maybe she's whatever or you know so you need a character rather than just a
good looking housewife. So in that sense the the stories the storytelling itself began
to change because we are you revolving the story of surf or whichever product we're talking
about around the character. So I would say obviously you know the first one probably
the first one to realize that was surf and levers where they said you know you have this
very tough shrewd housewife who calculates everything and then decide that surf is the
right detergent to buy. You know she's not a goody goody perfect housewife for the best
looking housewife she's just quite sharp she's quite strident and she won over the hearts
of so many people. So that is so to that extent the introduction of characters has definitely
changed the storytelling aspect and how have influencers changed it I mean they've changed
it so much I was looking at something that some somebody some influencer had posted about
some chair if an ad filmmaker had shot that commercial we would have shot it with perfect
lighting we would have made it up we would have made up her hair and it would have been
a perfect commercial and it wouldn't have worked. This girl just sat on that chair and
she made some some comment about her boyfriend and all that said something about the chair
I don't even know how she connected the boyfriend and chair but she did some weird you know
very funny way and it worked it worked brilliantly. You know this was in Singapore and I think
influencers work their magic in a very very subtle unconventional way but you as long
as they're believable the moment they cross that I mean obviously you know that influencers
are paid but the moment it starts looking like commercial oh you know here I'm holding
the back and you know then it's not going to work. The influencers magic works when
it looks as though you know she's just sitting before a laptop and saying oh you know this
is a great product and she's doing her usual crazy stuff and she may not be made up she
may not be even dressed well she may be just in a very untidy bedroom but it will work.
And exactly like you said army of YouTube influencers who talk about beauty they themselves
may not be conventional beauties by any yardstick the techniques that they propagate are not
by any means what a well-known brand would actually advise but they have legends of followers
and they have a whole lot of people tuning in to what they have to say. It has become
a career option which you would never think of let's say 10 or 15 years ago. Okay it
extracts a certain toll because it means that you have to keep innovating the pressure is
huge. I don't know if you've heard of this person called physics wala? No no tell me
Vinu. That's a it's almost like the Indian version of what Salman Khan did the Khan Academy
so there was this guy who started teaching physics on YouTube in Hindi and English with
just a blackboard he's now got huge amounts of financing. Wonderful. So wonderful and he
did it almost as a measure of desperation this is what I can do I can take a phone I
can put it in front of me and then he learned that is the other great aspect that they don't
when they start they don't know filmmaking they don't know pedagogy they don't know how
to get across to students but what they have is the connect they seem like one of us it
seems like I can talk to this person which is why it possibly why it works. These are
not career options that one would have even thought of 20 years ago so YouTube has completely
changed yardstick by which careers are formed and changed so there are people who can have
classes on gardening and still make a decent amount of money which wouldn't have been the
case earlier but we will still have of course conventional classrooms and universities and
degrees because there is validation which is required for a whole lot of jobs it's as
if you can't make a decision without some kind of validation from a source that you
trust. And the universities the way the universities are working definitely will get disrupted
yes it's just waiting to happen to some extent the pandemic actually helped in this sense
it sort of broadened the universities to move into digital into the digital realm and into
online degrees etc and that's going to be really fast-tracked. I remember I think we
discussed once a long time ago about some somebody who said that maybe I can learn I
don't need to go to a film school I can learn filmmaking watching YouTube videos etc and
I can also work in a film set that means you know actually work in a film set so universities
have to be competing with that now if universities have to compete with that they have to change
as well they have to you know give students give parents of students some kind of validation
that what we are teaching is going to be more valuable than that and it's not easy it's
definitely not it is the universities are going to be disrupted at some point I think
Amazons of the world will I think start universities of their own and they will be creating universities
which which cater to the needs of the employers directly I mean so you'll have multinationals
who own universities and those universities will be very geared to jobs so that that will
happen of course there is so much scope for other other kinds of learning as well in the
sense when you're learning literature or when you're learning the classics or when you're
learning sociology or when you're learning you know all those wonderful areas will would
remain somewhat untouched but these are all guesses that one is hasardic universities
are also places where change is a little more difficult not because universities are also
paradox and they don't want change but because parents are conservative when it comes to
their children now every parent wants to ensure the best possible education for their child
and so when they are making decisions for their child it is unlikely that your parents
will say hey go out there and work and learn from YouTube videos rather than go for a degree
some I think dying period where universities will be able to continue without having too
much drastic change but that change will slowly happen in the workplace as well to some extent
as parents who are very conservative and physical jobs what used to be considered blue collar
I was reading the other day that Walmart for example pays its drivers somewhere in the
region of 75 to 90 thousand dollars per year to start off with and that starts off with
a four-week course so they spent 10 years if they've got 10 years experience they obviously
make probably as much as a graduate who's gone to a big university so do you think those
opposing forces of physical comfort on the job is something that's going to define how
careers evolve.
I saw that happening in Singapore because in the early days in Singapore I mean it to
some extent all Asians tend to want their children to have degrees postgraduate degrees
work in an office etc to some extent there was a certain hesitation for parents to want
blue collar jobs for their children so you could see that Singapore the Singapore Singapore
is very tightly run by the government itself right so initially this Singapore government
was very comfortable with that and they were encouraging parents and encouraging students
in that direction but now they're going the other way they are realizing that oh there
will be students who will be happier number one in blue collar jobs number two they will
be better paid at blue collar jobs than at some of the white collar jobs and so that's
something that you know as I said the Singapore government tends to shape the thinking of
its citizens so they are now trying to you know inculcate respect for blue collar jobs
among in Singapore which is something that I think to some extent in Asian societies
India China Singapore the blue collar jobs tend to get neglected because parents don't
want their children's going in that direction but they are very highly paid a security guard
at Cambridge makes as much as a lecturer you know so it's quite ironic that poor lecturer
has spent all his life doing his PhD you know.
Which brings up the other question you know what is satisfaction in a job is it the money
or is it the intellectual curiosity some people are just not you know they're happy doing
the same thing over and over again so how does one figure out if one likes a routine
and not straying from it too much you know it did not be that every person has to figure
out the next wave of where the world will go or to change the world as you know most
companies today would like to believe but it's they're satisfied with their lot and
can make a very comfortable living which used to be that of the factory worker during a
certain period.
I remember there was this student who was working I mean after finishing his MBA he
was working at Nielsen and everybody was very thrilled because that was a very plump job
and you know his parents were happy his teachers were happy his classmates were proud of him
and then I remember him bringing me and saying you know I want to be interned with in ad
filmmaking and I said you have this lovely steady job where you know you know where your
next meal is coming from and you know you're venturing into something that's a little more
uncertain and he said no you know I really enjoyed the creative aspects that we know
when we were doing our MBA and this is something I'm just not enjoying it.
He was reasonably good at it that's why he got the job but he left it and I remember
being a little apprehensive at that point in time because not everybody can make it
as an ad filmmaker but today he's doing well he's happy he's it will have to I guess you
know depend on each person I think yeah each person is a life and a career in itself and
of course education and universities and MBA programs like ours as well to some extent
will straight jacket you will say these are the careers these are what's available this
is probably what's best for you in terms of security in terms of you know immediate financial
gains etc but I think everybody has to look deep within themselves and then decide that
okay and I said there is something called an affordable risk you should take risk when
it's affordable when it's I think okay so here's another question.
What inspired your management concepts any advice to management rookies on how to what
inspired the management concepts was definitely my years in advertising in ad filmmaking I
remember for instance companies telling me it was the chairman of a company of a very
big multinational company which was making this hair color and I remember calling it
a hair dye in those days kept calling it a hair dye and he said you know I just want
to correct you I we don't make hair dye we make hair color and I said it's just the difference
of one word isn't it why does it matter so much he said that the change of that one word
from hair dye to hair color has meant millions of dollars in sales and that's when I came
up with the idea of reality plus that means your reality of the hair color the product
is the same the packaging is the same everything is the same but instead of calling it hair
dye you're now calling it hair color so that is reality plus and that is how the concept
of reality plus came and which and I also remember that one of our again one of our
multinational client came to us and said that you know he was making this milk you know
this powders which you add to milk drinks you know and he said our powder is genuinely
very nutritious it is the best in the market and he's saying he was saying I'm not plugging
my own product I know that if you take it chemically it is the best product in the market
but how do I convince consumers about that so in his case it was almost like reality
minus that means the reality of his product that it was far better than all the other
products in the market but the other products were doing you know better marketing etc etc
so the marketing concepts come from actually practicing what you see out there in the market
place well really fascinating how you entered Tashkent and taught there for some time you've
taught in so many the book you've written the peddler of soaps which became a vessel
I don't think we've touched upon because we I think we went deep into a few aspects of
you know what careers are today what jobs are today and I think it's fascinating how
you know your combination of academics and practical experience in marketing has shaped
so much of your thought and helped you to bridge something which was essentially not
you know it's almost as if these were silos earlier people from academics would rarely
come into contact with people who are in the industry and to industries academics were
people who only theorized so I think you've kind of set out a path which says that the
the lines that divide careers are going to be even less you know defined as we go forward
because people are getting to be filmmakers and influencers and writers and photographers
because that's how the new world is like absolutely you yeah you can't stop at one so is there
something that you would like to leave us with is there something that you would like
to tell young people who are on the you know the early part of their career I think we
are living in the becomes absolutely we are living in the most exciting in the most wonderful
phase of human history ever it's not something just that I'm saying that is optimistic etc.
This is based on fact there's a whole book written by somebody from Harvard you know
by professor Steven Pinker who said that this is really the best phase of human history
human terms of poverty becoming less in terms of democracy growth of democracy in terms
of equality in terms of women's equality in terms of every aspect of life now all this
wonderful aspects of life also translate into this is the best place to do business this
is the best place to do to start your own company this is the best time to make money
as well to some extent there are even I know it doesn't sound very because we are always
listening to bad news but there are even less wars today because people have begun to realize
that you can actually trade with somebody who's alive you can't trade with somebody
whom you've killed and that's a very harsh truth but it's a commercial truth so Steven
Picker's book is wonderful it means that we are living genuinely in a wonderful world
we're living in a world that is at its best ever and which also means that this is a great
time to be working this is a great time to do business is a great time to start your
own business to make money as well as to enjoy your work thank you it's been wonderful having
you on the show and thank you wonderful and I think we learn by itself my first job the
podcast is a production from ideascape communications guest relations promotions and creative is
managed by Deepa Ravi with occasional support by Vin Gopal Nair archiving and technical
help is provided by LPS Jayachandran.