1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:20,280 Vishwadeep Kuila or Vishy helped build one of India's best-known brand of pens, Reynolds. 2 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:26,680 A long career journey that went all the way from his first job in a dairy plant near Varanasi 3 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:32,520 to qualifying for the Indian Institute of Management where he specialized in marketing 4 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,200 and shifted the course of his career. 5 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:40,960 Welcome to my first job where we find out what drives people, how luck plays a role 6 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:42,960 and the lessons they've learnt. 7 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:49,720 This is episode 7 and like every interesting career journey, it's full of twists, turns 8 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:51,320 and insights. 9 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:53,960 My name is Venu Gopal Nair. 10 00:00:53,960 --> 00:01:01,080 I'm the host of this podcast and CEO of Ideascape Communications, an advertising agency into 11 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,200 branding, creative and design. 12 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:08,360 So settle in, sit back and enjoy the conversation. 13 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,280 Hi Vishy and welcome to the show. 14 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:17,640 Starting off, what is your typical day like and what is it that you do now before we go 15 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:18,640 into the first? 16 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:25,320 Okay, today I have a dual role, one where I'm on which is Brand Vectors, which I do 17 00:01:25,320 --> 00:01:28,320 on my own because the proprietary company and we are a very small team. 18 00:01:28,320 --> 00:01:33,200 It's a team of a few people who brand health and everything. 19 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:35,720 So it's not execution, but more about strategy. 20 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:37,200 So there's a small team there. 21 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,040 So I'm deeply involved there. 22 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:44,400 The other one, which is much larger and bigger and much ahead, which is Proklean, which is 23 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:49,080 one of the founder directors, we've kind of come to a mentorship stage. 24 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:55,600 We've got professional CEOs, we've got CEOs, department heads, vice presidents, full fledged 25 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:56,600 structure. 26 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:01,840 I spend more time there in Proklean, but more mentoring. 27 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:07,520 And you're into a category which is not, it's basically probiotic bacteria being used for 28 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:09,680 a number of purposes, right? 29 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:10,800 Yeah, yeah. 30 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:12,840 So it's a very unique thing. 31 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,840 In fact, most people don't understand when we tell them what are we doing. 32 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,720 So they think we are selling some health drink probiotic. 33 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:22,880 But that's been the whole difference. 34 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:27,960 The difference has been that probiotics was used in human health and animal health all 35 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:28,960 the time. 36 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:34,560 But we were one of the first companies across the globe who used it for industrial purposes, 37 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:36,320 replacing toxic chemicals. 38 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:41,320 You've come a long way from where you began in several small towns. 39 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:43,280 Where did it all begin? 40 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,800 What were the kind of career dreams and aspirations you had when you were young? 41 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:52,480 You know, music and you were very good at sports and you were in the East Zone team 42 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:53,480 as a goalkeeper. 43 00:02:53,480 --> 00:03:00,760 You know, how did you and music and painting, it's as if you were trying out so many things. 44 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,920 So I don't know, initially, I was just, you just flow along with what happens to you. 45 00:03:04,920 --> 00:03:09,760 As I said, that would pull us out of one place to the next place every two years or three 46 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:10,760 years. 47 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,480 I was born and brought up in a small town in Karnal in Haryana. 48 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,320 That's where my father was working for National Research Institute. 49 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:22,560 I started my schooling in Teghobali, which later became famous because of Kalpana Chawla, 50 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,800 then moved on to various places, moved to Mumbai was the only larger town that we moved 51 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:32,160 to and back to Karnal for second stand and then to Kalyani, which is the suburbs of Calcutta. 52 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:34,600 That's how we kept moving place to place. 53 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:39,840 Well, yeah, what it really is that while it, I sometimes feel that if I had been in one 54 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:44,920 school and focused on a good school because we moved from good government school somewhere, 55 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:46,560 we didn't get a great school. 56 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:51,800 So we moved on to some of the CBSEs everywhere that was the challenges which you faced, you 57 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,160 know, trains and we're trying to make friends traveling. 58 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:59,160 I used to commute 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, I used to commute about one and a half hours 59 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:04,920 in the morning by local train and again change at two trains and then go again come back 60 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:09,480 by that because there was no school nearby where dad was, no CBSE school. 61 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:15,040 So I mean those were challenges, but also I do feel what it really gave me of those days 62 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:21,160 where that you learn life skills so much more than what you learn if you've got everything 63 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:22,160 set. 64 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,040 There's a school bus coming taking you, getting bring you back. 65 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,480 Otherwise, you know, you can't, dad's car taking you and bring you back. 66 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:32,880 You don't, the kind of life skills that we learned was actually, I really feel it's helped 67 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:34,760 me a lot even till today. 68 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:39,840 You said when you passed out at 12th, you had to choose between a career in a not so 69 00:04:39,840 --> 00:04:43,280 well known medical and dairy technology. 70 00:04:43,280 --> 00:04:47,100 So that was one of the places where you had to decide one way or the other. 71 00:04:47,100 --> 00:04:53,400 So I moved from Karnal in a very good Convent school to Kalyani where father got transferred 72 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,720 and Kalyani had a very poor school. 73 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,440 So I kind of lost interest in studies. 74 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,920 I went back into, I mean, I used to play a lot and keep playing volleyball, whatever 75 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:03,920 we do. 76 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:08,880 So those were not the days that parents used to go after you, study, IIT, AI, and all those. 77 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:12,720 So whatever we learned from our friends, that's what we figured out. 78 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:17,000 So we saw that some of my friends are preparing for medical and some engineering and this. 79 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:21,160 I was interested in medical because I was very good at biology from early days and my 80 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,160 parents thought I should become a doctor. 81 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:28,560 So I did, but obviously one had no idea about how competitive it can be and appeared for 82 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,320 it got some very small college in Calcutta. 83 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,360 And that really wouldn't have made sense. 84 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:40,200 And so I was planning to drop one year and prepare seriously for medical when my dad 85 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:41,960 said, yeah, you can do that. 86 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:46,900 And there's this, why don't you appear for daily engineering, which is not too bad. 87 00:05:46,900 --> 00:05:48,920 You can also appear for that. 88 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:53,000 And if you get to the medical next year, you can come back and join this. 89 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:54,000 I said, okay. 90 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:55,000 So did that. 91 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:56,000 I got through to daily engineering. 92 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:00,040 Engineering always is and daily engineering especially was more fun and little bit of 93 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,040 studies interspersed between fun. 94 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,960 So I mean, one didn't want to come back and leave that place. 95 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:10,760 So we do realize a lot of things which we learned there is useful even today, especially 96 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:17,120 today because I'm in handling microbes and all that I learned about microbiology there 97 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:21,280 and context of dairy is coming very handy here for me to understand how the products 98 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:22,280 behave and what. 99 00:06:22,280 --> 00:06:24,640 So was the college fairly well set up? 100 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:26,640 Yeah, that's the college. 101 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:27,640 Yeah. 102 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:32,920 National Research Institute is the Asia's best Institute in dairy and the college is 103 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,080 actually known to be the Asia's best dairy college. 104 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:37,080 That was fine. 105 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:38,080 Very good facilities. 106 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:39,080 And then, okay. 107 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:45,680 So then dairy technology and then you decided that you're going to go ahead and plunge into 108 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:50,040 it full time or you had some kind of, you know, somewhere at the back of your mind saying, 109 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,640 am I going to do this all my life or what was going on? 110 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:59,760 It may sound a bit funny, but let me tell you frankly, that even then I had no clue 111 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:01,800 what I wanted to do in life. 112 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,560 Got into dairy engineering, was doing dairy engineering, had no clue what to do next. 113 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:07,640 Thought, okay, we'll pick up a job. 114 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:12,200 And then my father said, we want to do an MS in the US because he was very well connected 115 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:14,240 in the dairy industry in the US. 116 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:16,840 And he said, I just have to pick up a phone and talk to them. 117 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:21,360 They'll you don't even have to pay for GRE and all just one profile should be good enough. 118 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:22,360 You'll get through. 119 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:26,160 Okay, again, at the same time, I wanted to just try out a job. 120 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:28,960 So I said, let me first look at the job. 121 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,160 That excitement that I'm going to start earning was this quite a bit. 122 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:36,440 So then I got through to, you know, after my dairy engineering, got through to Pradesh 123 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:41,120 cooperative dairy federation, which is UP dairy federation and Parag dairy. 124 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,400 And that's where I started my career in a factory as a shift in charge. 125 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:50,160 Tough life, you are 40 kilometers away from Varanasi, which itself is a small town that 126 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,760 time and it was like a village and there you are 40 kilometers. 127 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,640 It was like a, they're quite infested place almost. 128 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:57,440 So where the dairy plant was. 129 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:02,760 One of the things that being in a tough environment teaches you is like the life skills part, 130 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,100 which you said in the traveling to school and college. 131 00:08:06,100 --> 00:08:09,120 This one gives you a different set of perspectives. 132 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:10,120 Absolutely. 133 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:11,120 Absolutely. 134 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:12,760 I can't forget how much it taught me. 135 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:20,000 I mean, I was, I was just 21 when I became the shift in charge and I had to manage supervisors 136 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:24,240 and workers who are 50, 45 that age. 137 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:28,640 And they used to look at me like this little kid has come here to, you know, try and tell 138 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:32,520 us what to do is, is, I mean, it was very difficult to even convince them that, you 139 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,480 know, they should listen to their UP is a very militant area. 140 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:40,440 So in fact I had almost threats of killing and all that stuff. 141 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,160 There was, there were neck threats and everything. 142 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:44,160 So all that happens. 143 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:49,960 It is a nice seven, eight months, close to nine months that I was there before I, I had 144 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:51,240 to, I think it was very difficult. 145 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:52,680 I mean, well, I was doing it. 146 00:08:52,680 --> 00:08:57,000 I didn't think that I would learn too much beyond a point where they, because I looked 147 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,120 at those supervisors and all they've been doing that for a long time. 148 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:01,960 They're doing the same thing. 149 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:06,160 And I didn't see how I could contribute in a big way over there. 150 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:11,000 That's when I was asking my other colleagues, they say, ah, we're preparing for cat and 151 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,200 I said, Oh, what is this cat? 152 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:14,200 So let me just look at it. 153 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,760 That, you know, I had no clue what this is. 154 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:21,160 I knew something called management stuff and then how do you prepare? 155 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:26,800 There's no nothing is somewhere sitting in, you know, Ramnagar way beyond Varanasi. 156 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:28,240 There was no way that one could prepare. 157 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:33,840 So somebody told me, you can take this national school of banking book on this or something 158 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:37,800 from somewhere you pick up and then you study the GMAT book was available. 159 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,280 And that's how that's, that was the preparation for cat. 160 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:42,600 So that's how one did. 161 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:47,080 I tell people, I mean, how I appear for my cat exam. 162 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:53,960 I would go from Ramnagar to Mughalsarai by bus and night I would catch Mughalsarai, get 163 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,880 into an undeserved compartment, come to Delhi. 164 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,880 My center was in DPS Mathura road. 165 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:01,880 So can't do anything. 166 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,880 And from there, stick at it on the bus, go to DPS Mathura road, actually use the loo 167 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:10,400 there, wash yourself and then sit for your cat exam there. 168 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,120 And that's how I did both cat and as well as the interview. 169 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,800 So those are very different days of how one would be. 170 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,040 You got through on your cat in the very first. 171 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:20,040 Yeah. 172 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:25,720 So it was, I mean, this is the kind of thing that the quota factories take three and four 173 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:27,720 years or five years. 174 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:28,720 Yeah. 175 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:33,920 Natural brilliance or pure genius. 176 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:38,840 I think to be very honest, those days were cat was not so competitive. 177 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:44,120 If I were to give you the statistics, the year which I got through it, there are total 178 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,760 candidates only were 25,000 who appeared for cat. 179 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:49,800 Today, if you look at it, it's 10 times. 180 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,920 It's at least three lakhs, two and a half, three lakhs people appear for a cat and very 181 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:55,920 high, very, very high scores. 182 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,680 If it was today, I wouldn't have made it ever. 183 00:10:58,680 --> 00:11:01,200 So that's very clear about it. 184 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:02,200 So yeah. 185 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:03,200 So there I think. 186 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:08,480 But you didn't have any kind of clue as to what the, you know, kind of you had some experience 187 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,200 with the paper and how it, what kind of questions and. 188 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:13,200 Yeah. 189 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:17,080 So some of those, I mean, I didn't have too much of a clue as to how it would be. 190 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,400 I knew it was a multiple choice and this is how it is. 191 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,800 I mean, that that's how one went in. 192 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:26,200 But I think the good part was that a lot of people were clueless like me who appeared 193 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:27,200 there. 194 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,440 So I mean, unlike today where everybody knows even the nuances, you know, the coaches tell 195 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,880 you everything, they all of us are like completely clueless as to what we are going for. 196 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,120 We are going to appear for an exam, we are going there to appear for it. 197 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,680 Once I got through, it was a very different phase in which. 198 00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:45,200 Do you remember anything of the interview? 199 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,280 Those days we used to have GD and interview both. 200 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:51,520 So these days GDs have been, I forget the topic, something where not much of clue on 201 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:57,000 what is happening and GD, I mean, everybody is almost literally screaming and not letting, 202 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:01,680 allowing you to not used to fighting like that for attention. 203 00:12:01,680 --> 00:12:03,080 I literally was quiet. 204 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:07,800 So moderator said, why don't you let him say something, few things I think he liked. 205 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:09,360 So I made it to interview. 206 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:10,840 Interview was fantastic. 207 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,200 I think I answered only one question. 208 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:15,240 Technically, all questions were good. 209 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,200 I mean, I answered on Terry and all that. 210 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,880 But after that, he went on to suddenly saw that what is your hobby painting? 211 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:25,080 He went on into who's painted this one and who's this one? 212 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:26,080 And then I don't know. 213 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:27,080 I don't know. 214 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:28,080 I don't know. 215 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:29,080 He said, oh, you paint. 216 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,000 You have no, I said paint, but I have no clue about this artist. 217 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,840 So I was very sure that I'm not going to make it. 218 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:42,080 But somehow I said, it's like, if you imagine a situation where F1 car is at this peak acceleration 219 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,300 and lifted above the road and suddenly you drop it on the road, how it will take off. 220 00:12:46,300 --> 00:12:51,600 If you survive for six months, I didn't know I was, whether I was coming or going, a difficult 221 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:52,600 time. 222 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,200 I mean, I remember my first day when they're very happy and we said, okay, you've got to 223 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:57,720 collect your course material. 224 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:02,480 So I went to the course material section and they said, yeah, here's your course material. 225 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:06,200 They give you a slip, you have to submit it and they'll give you your course material. 226 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:11,520 This was about one and a half, two feet of cyclostyle notes and some reference books, 227 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:12,680 everything and plus books given. 228 00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:14,200 So I barely carried it. 229 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:18,400 And while trying to carry it, I turned around and said, so is that all for the term? 230 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,000 Told me this is for this week. 231 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:25,240 That was my first shock of my life that I got it. 232 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:26,240 I said, come again. 233 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:28,680 I said, this is for this week. 234 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:36,080 Next week you'll get your next, you know, but you know, there is no way you can pass 235 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:38,440 IIM by studying every bit. 236 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:39,440 That's what I think. 237 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,840 If you want to study from beginning to the end, you'll never pass because you won't even 238 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:48,080 finish 20% of what they really prepare you for us to read real life. 239 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:49,080 That's how you're going to be. 240 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:50,080 You're going to be flooded with information. 241 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,120 There'll be information all around you. 242 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:56,000 You really need to outsmart the system and understanding what is it that you need to 243 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:57,800 go through, what you don't need to go through. 244 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:03,040 How do you quickly make decisions based on what needs to be read, what doesn't need to 245 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:07,000 be read, how, what you can't be just working like a donkey from first page to the last 246 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:08,000 one. 247 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,200 That's what, that's what whoever cracked that made it. 248 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,800 But we had very brilliant students. 249 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:16,360 Also you are actually dropped out after having mental stress and all that. 250 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,760 So then again, the equation really changes how strong you are mentally. 251 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,320 And that's why sometimes I feel I possibly survived. 252 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:27,200 I am because from small town, you're mentally far more stronger than children who are growing 253 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:32,320 up in city with a lot of comfort and that's how possibly the mental toughness with them. 254 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:38,880 So once you wrapped up IMA, obviously then it becomes a question of what is it that you 255 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:40,480 want to do next? 256 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:46,840 So dairy and advertising, if I remember right, is that what you decided to take up? 257 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,040 I am, I got very interested in marketing. 258 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:54,920 I love marketing subject somehow and marketing and advertising both were my favorites. 259 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:56,240 I maxed those subjects. 260 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:00,640 I used to get very good marks on that and some of my friends used to tease me saying, 261 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:04,240 no, no, no, no, it's your handwriting, which gives you good marks because those days we 262 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:06,280 still used to write our paper. 263 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:07,280 So that's about it. 264 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:11,440 I maxed all those subjects, marketing and then I decided that yes, it's going to be 265 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:12,440 marketing. 266 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:18,160 So my first choice was if I could, would happen that if I got into levers or PNG or Godrej 267 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,280 or something, so I mean, I'll go in marketing. 268 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,000 If not, second choice would be advertising. 269 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:27,880 So as it happened, two of us were picked up for Godrej and I was very happy we joined 270 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:28,880 Godrej. 271 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,440 Most of it was to give a Maluti car at the end of, right in the beginning. 272 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,200 So that was, that was a big happy. 273 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:41,640 So happened that somehow they decided that no, this year we'll take only one, not take 274 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:42,640 two after giving them. 275 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:47,400 So I was suddenly, after having come out of the placement, I had to get back into placement 276 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:48,800 because it suddenly changed my mind. 277 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:53,960 So then my second choice was, because Nestle had also selected me, but they wanted me to 278 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:55,300 go back into production. 279 00:15:55,300 --> 00:15:56,960 So I didn't want to get back to production. 280 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,840 I said marketing, they said few years you'll have to do in production. 281 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:02,720 Then that didn't look like, you know, that would happen. 282 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,640 So I decided to get into advertising, which was my second love. 283 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:11,440 And I loved my stint in advertising six, seven years that I was in three agencies. 284 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:12,440 That was, I loved my stuff. 285 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:18,640 Why don't we go back to some of those early days and what your experience of learning 286 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,360 and actually on the job and what advertising was like. 287 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:26,440 Really happened when I came to advertising was I thought, I mean, there's, we've learned 288 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,440 so much and I'm going to apply all that. 289 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:32,240 I've been being inclined, so I was saying, I'm going to give my clients a lot of yarn 290 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,760 and tell them as to what I've learned in marketing. 291 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:41,280 And then the, you know, the hammer hit pretty early when it told you, you are a client servicing 292 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,720 the run around, get artworks, make sure that your artworks are on time. 293 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,880 Make sure that, you know, you reach the client's place on time. 294 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,280 Make sure you convince the client that this is okay. 295 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:52,280 This creative is fine. 296 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:56,120 And this is your to go back because if you don't convince them, you get creative director 297 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:57,120 also on the other side. 298 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:05,120 So, I mean, suddenly I found what like in Hindi, they say, neither belong to the agency 299 00:17:05,120 --> 00:17:06,960 nor belong to the client side. 300 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,320 So you are, you're like hit ball, like a volleyball here and there. 301 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:11,320 But it was good. 302 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:13,800 Really learned the basics of advertising. 303 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,200 Those days, there's nothing that one cannot do. 304 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,600 So I've sat and cut to have the fonts. 305 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:20,600 Yeah. 306 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:21,600 Letters, I think the one. 307 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:22,600 Yeah, it's a letter set. 308 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:23,600 You can paste those and make an artwork. 309 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:24,600 I've had and does done those. 310 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:25,600 One 32 in the night and gone and woken up the typeset man from his home and brought him 311 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:26,600 to the typesetter place because there's a mistake that needs to be corrected. 312 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:27,600 And there's not like today, you just corrected on the type set. 313 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:28,600 So I've done those. 314 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:29,600 I've done those. 315 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:30,600 I've done those. 316 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:31,600 I've done those. 317 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:32,600 I've done those. 318 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:33,600 I've done those. 319 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:34,600 I've done those. 320 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:35,600 I've done those. 321 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:36,600 I've done those. 322 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:37,600 I've done those. 323 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:46,440 I've done those, I've done those, I've done those, I've done those, I've done those. 324 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:50,260 So I've done those. 325 00:17:50,260 --> 00:17:57,120 And then back to the 326 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,160 What do you mean? 327 00:17:58,160 --> 00:17:59,180 What are they? 328 00:17:59,180 --> 00:18:00,160 Just look at those words, food. 329 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:01,300 What are they? 330 00:18:01,300 --> 00:18:05,160 Th so what means is what are the names of these guys? 331 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:06,160 Keep them in. 332 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:07,160 Don't eat them. 333 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:11,320 your keyboard wire, you can't do that. There were a lot of things, you were going to make a positive, 334 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:16,360 if it is a color, then you would give it to for color separation, all kinds of things. 335 00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:21,240 Do you remember any of the campaigns that you presented and some of the interactions 336 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,640 that you had with clients? Oh yeah, I mean, you know, when I was in 337 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:31,640 Akash Swami, that's where I started my career, Akash Swami B.V.D.O. So I was handling then 338 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:36,520 Ashok Leiland and Shaw Ellis. So Ashok Leiland being more of a industrial client, that time it 339 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:41,960 was more we used to do the brochures for various trucks and all those. And we did a corporate 340 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:46,840 campaign and a corporate, you know, AV and those kind of things. But Shaw Ellis was launching their 341 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:53,560 first mosquito mat. And we had to shoot a film, we shot a film and, you know, we had to do the 342 00:18:53,560 --> 00:19:01,640 packaging and the creatives. So I remember a very good first time we were doing this shoot. And 343 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:08,440 that's my first TVC shooting, Tara Mosquito Coil. So the model is there and the kid is there. 344 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:14,120 In those days, they didn't use dry ice and all that. They used to use kerosene smoke to create 345 00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:18,600 the smoke for the night. The light is coming through the window at night and all that. And 346 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:24,600 suddenly the kid's mother comes running inside, tum mere bache ko maar doge, maa leke jaa rahe ho. 347 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:28,520 And she ran away, literally ran away with the kid. We had a tough time trying to, you know, 348 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:34,440 console her and get back and finish the shoot quite quickly. So I mean, studying from those 349 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:39,720 kind of thing. And then we had the packaging. The packaging went to this, should say plant-based 350 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:47,720 repellent, not harmful for kids. That not from the, this dropped, dropped for whatever it is. 351 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:53,800 That piece only from the artwork had dropped. And that packaging, a few lakh packaging got printed 352 00:19:53,800 --> 00:20:00,200 with harmful for the kids. My God, which is harmful for kids. Because not got dropped out there. So 353 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:07,160 I mean, imagine the situation. Imagine the tension that would be there to just break the 354 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:14,040 sleeves to the client and then... Forget about breaking it. Breaking it to Sundar Swami was my 355 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:19,320 biggest problem. And then I had to go walking to Sundar's room and say, Sundar, this is the goof 356 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:25,880 that has happened. He looked at me and very quietly said, what? So who was smoking pot? 357 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:34,200 I said, no one. Sundar just dropped like this. He took care. He spoke to the client and... 358 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,880 Okay. That was a large print run. It was a fairly large... 359 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:42,360 About a lakh and a half print run. I mean, it was not a small print run. 360 00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:43,320 Yeah. I know. 361 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:49,240 You learn very early. You're happy in these days of digital where the number of only okay, 362 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,120 but packs still have to be printed. You can't get away from it. 363 00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:52,920 Yeah. 364 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,200 So when did you get to the point where you could start giving clients 365 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,600 Gyan, which is what you dreamed of right to the... 366 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:07,080 Never. I grew from account executive till account director and did the same thing. I didn't do 367 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:12,280 anything different than what I was doing as an account executive. Only I had two people whom I 368 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:16,680 could tell them, I go run around here, run around here, do this or three people. That's the only 369 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,120 difference that happened. Client didn't listen to me as an executive, didn't listen to me as 370 00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:28,280 an account director either. He told me all that is fine, but this is what you do. Whatever you 371 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:33,320 did tell me is fine, but this is all I want you to do. So we did that all the time. 372 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:40,280 That's the thing that when you... There's such a huge difference between what is taught in college 373 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:45,400 and how you're raring to go and you think that you're out to change the world. And then suddenly 374 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:51,400 you hit this wall where reality bites. Then you realize that, no, but you have to start literally 375 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:52,680 from the beginning all over again. 376 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:59,960 So what I would actually grant it to all my education is that they prepared us to deal with 377 00:21:59,960 --> 00:22:06,120 situation. I mean, it's not the information and knowledge that really made us, but they made us 378 00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:11,960 how to deal with situations. I think one thing which IM does to you, or any, I would say, 379 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:17,720 not just IM, but most of the MBAs, what MBAs do to you is they really sharpen your ability to 380 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:24,120 figure out a situation quickly and come out with solutions and you're not... You're never going to 381 00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:28,280 have all the information in your hand to come up with that you know everything all the time. 382 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:34,280 But they teach you how to get your information, how to analyze it, how to get the interpretations 383 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:40,280 out of it and quickly work on it or even manage situations, how to manage people, how to manage 384 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,600 clients, all that has been great. 385 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,440 Yeah. So you remember, like you said, I think you already answered that. You said early days 386 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:52,200 of the agency was basically running around and ensuring that things were happening. 387 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:58,360 Yeah. Most of it was really... And there you had to have physical meetings. 388 00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:03,960 Oh yeah. Yeah. There was no escaping the physical meeting and presenting also. Because I remember 389 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:09,720 the artworks, getting all that done was actually quite a job. It was very easy and then sending 390 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:14,680 it off to media. But I think we're getting into the nuts and bolts of advertising, but 391 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:20,120 let's go back to it. So when did this switch happen? 392 00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:27,720 So actually it was more of an accident. I moved out of Mudra, as you would know, after I got 393 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:34,120 married and husband and wife are not allowed to be in the same agency. So obviously they 394 00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:39,560 preferred the wife to the husband. So they kept the wife and told the husband to get out. So 395 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:46,360 I was fortunate enough that David said, okay, will she come with me? We'll stay here. So 396 00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:51,080 I was fortunate enough that David said, okay, will she come with me? We'll start this interact 397 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,640 vision. That's how it happened. So we had a good time in interact vision handling Henkel as a 398 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,880 client that was mostly a sole client, I would say we were handling prominently. There was a lot of 399 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:08,040 work there. But I think that's the time when I handled the client for about three months or so. 400 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:14,360 So he kind of remembered me, asked the recruitment agency that, do you know this guy? He was in 401 00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:19,240 between there. He was in Mudra. Where is he? So they said, yeah, he's there, very much there. But 402 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:27,240 that's how they called me and then said, come over. So I was, as usual, very unsure because it's a 403 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:33,640 that they were the completely owner driven company run by two gentlemen. I was, I would say, 404 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:39,080 after Mr. Ishwadas, I was the first professional to attend that. As my luck would have it, I joined 405 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:47,720 and Mr. Ishwadas left. So I was left holding on to this myself. So that was, but then it was again 406 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:54,200 another phase of learning how do you grow with an entrepreneur and how you grow the organization 407 00:24:54,200 --> 00:25:00,040 in an entrepreneurial organization. And it was a very tough category, right? At that point, 408 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:06,680 hardly any brands were there in pens was really difficult to establish a pen brand. So, 409 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:12,840 Reynolds. Yeah, it was difficult. So the, I would say it was a very difficult category as far as 410 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:17,640 distribution is concerned and, you know, marketing and distribution is concerned. I was fortunate 411 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:26,600 that the, this client was very marketing savvy. I think if you know, Mr. Kader has always been 412 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:32,760 who was that time handling marketing. He was very savvy, native intelligence to the next level. So 413 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:38,440 he always, he would always, if I say that we'll spend one crore, he'll say, no, that's not enough. 414 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:43,240 We should spend two crores, two and a half crores. He knew really was to establish a brand and he 415 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:48,520 believed in brands in our entrepreneurial organization. But what you learn is that you 416 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:54,520 got to not only grow, but you got to grow the entrepreneur along with you. Grow the entrepreneur. 417 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:59,320 So here, what exactly did you need to do? Where does the problem come in an entrepreneurial 418 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:05,800 organization that as professionals, you think differently and as entrepreneurs, they think 419 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:11,640 different. Both of us have the same objectives. The root to that objective is slightly different 420 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:16,120 and our root to that objective is like, I also want to grow the brand. Okay. So I would say the 421 00:26:16,120 --> 00:26:20,680 way to go the brand is this way, you know, you will invest. How do you invest? How you do this? 422 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:27,800 And for them to actually be able to, you know, buy that you need to be able to work with them, 423 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:32,520 get them in their confidence. So they also grow in the thinking that what you're doing along with 424 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,920 you. So what I mean is if there is gap in thinking between a professional and an entrepreneur, you 425 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:41,080 always going to have friction and clashes. You've got to bridge that. You'll never be able to do 426 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:47,960 that 100%, but you've got to bridge that as much as possible. And that's a very large, that's a big 427 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,840 task. So you remember some of the things that, where there would be differences in points of view 428 00:26:52,840 --> 00:27:00,200 and how you change some of those things. Oh, very much. I mean, you know, a lot of areas, 429 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:06,120 as I said, as far as the, you know, marketing, they're very tuned to marketing. So I would, 430 00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:10,200 I was fortunate there was an issue on that. First time I went there and I looked at, I said, 431 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:17,000 okay, show me the media plan. Hindu three insertions to be so and so. Then there is this channel, 432 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:22,280 so many ad, so many insertions at to be so and so. So I asked him, is this the media plan? 433 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:29,880 He said, huh? Wait, this is not, where in our, so I said, no, no, I want to know what is the 434 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:34,440 deliverables, what is the reach, what is the nonsense. All those are nonsense. We know what 435 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:42,040 is doing well, we will tell you. So you do that. So it started with that. And then imagine from 436 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:48,600 there, I could take the client to where we were the second client in the country to be the AOR, 437 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:55,000 to adopt AOR, media buying basically. That two initiative media tells me that our facts of 438 00:27:55,000 --> 00:28:01,080 approval was two minutes later than ITC. So ITC was the first client in this country who accepted, 439 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:07,160 went on for media buying as a separate agency. And we were the second one. So that transition 440 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:14,200 that you're going to make them to come to is very difficult. They don't easily, you know, accept it 441 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:20,520 because with no bad intention, they've done the things differently. They need to be able to 442 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:25,160 convince that yes, this is what this guy is saying. It makes sense once you do that. So I think 443 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:32,680 after a couple of years, I mean, two, three years, they were pretty convinced about whatever I was 444 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:40,040 saying. They would listen. I literally was the blue eyed boy then. So it was so where I could get, 445 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,840 I mean, imagine a small company getting Sachin as a brand ambassador on those days and 446 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:53,160 they heard me out. So what is that like? What was the thinking behind getting Sachin as a brand 447 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:58,680 ambassador there? You know, various places, things happen. So I always believe you use a brand 448 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:05,720 ambassador for two reasons. Either there's a brand fit, if not, you can still use him for media impact. 449 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:11,560 As long as it's the brand ambassadors not giving a negative doing something negative to your brand, 450 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:16,280 even if it's not doing something very positive to your brand, a good brand ambassador will 451 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:21,480 have a multiplier effect on the media because of the recall that you make it and those days 452 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:27,000 it was not so cluttered with. That is the other problem which is there now. Today everybody's 453 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:33,800 confused as to who's advertising for whom. It was not so much. The biggest advantage that I had at 454 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:39,160 that point in time was Sachin had been away for close to a year with a shoulder injury and 455 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:45,480 he missed his best to restore. And so literally he had very few endorsements at that point. 456 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:53,080 And the third good thing was Harish Krishnamacharya, you know, who was Mudra. So he was heading, 457 00:29:54,600 --> 00:30:02,040 you know, the world sport group WSC and he was handling Sachin's endorsement. So when I called 458 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:07,080 him and said, actually, I didn't call him. He came and told me once, hey, why don't you consider him? 459 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,440 So I said, oh, I can't afford him. And he said, tell me, you know, what is the budget and all, 460 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:15,000 because he's right now not being doing much. So we could think of something. And then we spoke. 461 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,400 So initial reaction, of course, of the entrepreneur was, do you think you want to spend this kind of 462 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:25,960 money? But it didn't take me too much time. And less than a week, I actually signed up Sachin and 463 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:31,160 then we had an amazing journey for, I think, five, seven, 10 years, close to 10 years. 464 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:37,320 He was a brand ambassador for 10 years. Yeah. Even after I left, he was there for about five years. 465 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:45,560 For five years. I left in 2008. I got him in 2004. And then another four or five years after that. 466 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,880 So eight, nine years, he was the brand ambassador. Yeah. Actually, you spent a couple of minutes on 467 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:56,520 that. Like you said, now it has reached a position where media is suffused with people think of 468 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:02,840 building brands using brand ambassadors as shortcuts to building a brand. Saying that if I get 469 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:10,040 a well-known name, I reduce the time required for my brand to get better. Do you subscribe to that or 470 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:17,640 do you have a different take on it? So it's like this, you know, Venu, if your nail is not sharp, 471 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:24,360 you need a bigger hammer to hammer it into the wall. Right. So if your brand story is not sharp, 472 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:29,880 your proposition is not sharp. You will use media muscle. You'll use all other kinds of muscles to, 473 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:35,880 you know, drive your name with all due respect to Unilever. Most of their strategy is based on 474 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:41,320 media pressure. They just bang the message home. So I believe that if you have a very sharp 475 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,040 proposition and a great product in the shop proposition, there's no need for any brand 476 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,800 ambassador. Of course, if there is a brand ambassador has got a very, very strong 477 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:54,840 relatability to the brand, then it always helps. But getting just brand ambassador, just because I 478 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,760 don't know what else to do. So he's doing brand ambassador. Let me also do brand ambassador. I 479 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:03,880 mean, that's that doesn't work. And very often, you know, it ends up being a waste of. 480 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:09,400 Okay. So in the eight years that you were there at GM pens, what are the changes you saw in the 481 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:15,160 overall writing instruments market? Writing is only in school. And I think a predominant part of 482 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:20,040 writing instruments are based out of school and college sales because offices, it's almost 483 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:25,160 everything has moved to typing on laptops, even signatures these days. 484 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:29,160 So I was there for 13 years, by the way. I was there in GM pens for 13 years. 485 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,480 13 years. Okay. Wow. 486 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:37,560 So as a category, it matured quite a bit earlier. If you looked at it, the Indian writing instruments, 487 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:43,720 we remember when before Reynolds came in was all those 50 Pesar refills and 30 Pesar refills, 488 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:48,520 which after writing for a few lines, it will stop and then you'll put it on the candle and heat it. 489 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,800 And again, it will start writing. And again, you're good on it. And that's the quality which 490 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:56,360 was available. And, you know, with Reynolds, it matured to a level where we could get international 491 00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:02,440 quality writing experience, at least if not the looks and the features. But as it happened, 492 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,360 every business is a good business till everybody knows it's a good business. 493 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:11,880 Very quickly, a lot of people came to know those who were making unrelated things like Panparag 494 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,200 decided to come into writing instruments, people making all kinds of different things started 495 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,280 coming into writing instruments. With those kind of things, the competition grew, but it also did 496 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:26,760 a lot of good too in the category. But of course, as we all, we think that, you know, 497 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:34,040 the writing came down, what happened to the market, did it crash or did it become like high priced and 498 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,440 low volume or something of that sort, nothing of that sort. The prices were going down, 499 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:43,400 writing instruments were one where the prices remained very, very low for a very long period 500 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:48,840 of time. Because so competitive category is that there's a five rupee price point, you can't exceed 501 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:54,200 that. And there's a 10 rupee price point and you put anything in between, it will not sell. 502 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:59,400 So, you know, those kind of and very, very competitive. But contrary to what people 503 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:04,520 thought that the writing instrument market is shrinking, it kept on exploding. Why? Because of 504 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:11,480 very simple reason that there are certain things you can only purchase as much as you consume, 505 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:16,520 which is like salt, atta, dal, you will only purchase as much you can consume. But if you look 506 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:24,040 at your garments, your other thing, you don't buy as much as you consume. I mean, today your 507 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:28,520 cupboard is overflowing with clothes, you don't know what to do. There are enough that you don't 508 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:33,560 even open the label and you give it off to your maids and servants. That's very different. So that 509 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:38,920 is the affordability and as the affordability increased, we used to go to for our exam with one 510 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:43,560 pen and one spare refill. That's all we had with. Now, if you look at a child's instrument box, 511 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:49,000 it'll have some eight, 10 kinds of pens from 15 rupees, 10 rupees. And, you know, they're all half 512 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:53,000 of them, they dry up, then they throw it into the dustbin, then they go back and buy another one. 513 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:59,080 It's not about, you know, usage, but it's about possession. So the possession of writing instruments 514 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:04,120 kept growing up constantly. Though the writing kept coming down, the possession kept growing up. 515 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,360 That's how that's also done by the industry because what they do is, I mean, when you come 516 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,600 out with new variants, new varieties, people want to own that. And then you go with another one, 517 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:18,280 they want to own that. That's how it keeps growing. Okay. Now having done so much, 518 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:25,240 what do you think would have changed if you had started? I'm not able to imagine myself being very 519 00:35:25,240 --> 00:35:31,400 planned about having, you know, I will do this and go after it. Not really. But I know today's world 520 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:38,200 is very different. So if it is an advice for today's people, I would really say that it's not about 521 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:44,600 what is a great career choice, what is a great line, what is doing great, you know, where you can 522 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:49,800 get a big job. I think it's very important for you to figure out very early in life what you like. 523 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:55,000 In today's competitive world, you cannot be doing something which you don't like and still 524 00:35:55,000 --> 00:36:00,280 do better than the other guy. The other guy who likes that and he's doing it will always outshine 525 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:06,600 you when you're doing it as a chore kind of a thing. And, you know, every day I'm doing it to 526 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:12,120 earn money. But the other guy is doing it because he loves it. He'll always outshine. In my view, 527 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,840 I think today's world has also got options. I mean, when we were there, it was engineering, 528 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:22,600 medical, that's it, the end of the list. Today there's so much of it. Everything is around there. 529 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:27,720 I mean, anything you do, do it better than most people. And you've got a business or you've got a 530 00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:33,400 career. That's all you need. Nothing that you have to be an engineer. You know, spinning the disc, 531 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:37,640 you will make a great DJ, you'll earn much more than anybody else, you love it and you'll 532 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,960 you've got a career. So, I mean, I'm very happy to see, you know, my driver earns much more than 533 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:48,600 what my son started earning once he finished his engineering from VIT. That's good to see that 534 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:53,800 physical labor is also being respected. It's not just about a degree or course. What is going to 535 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:59,160 happen in future is it's not going to be education alone. It's going to be, it's going to be skill. 536 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:05,400 You've got to have skills which your employers really are looking for. Education is fine. That's 537 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:10,040 the background. But the skills are very, very important. That's what I keep telling people, 538 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:15,240 develop your skills. Because that's changing. Every day it's changing. Things are changing every day. 539 00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:20,840 It's important to be there. I would say, I mean, everybody tells me and I mean, I also think I love 540 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:26,680 teaching. I love teaching and a lot of people do tell me that I'm a career and as a teacher, 541 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:35,080 a professor. So, the option that I had in the US was to do a MS, PhD and get into academics. So, 542 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:40,920 sometimes I do feel it could have been maybe much more peaceful and laid back, but I wouldn't have 543 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,600 been unhappy even that. That would have been a good option for me because I think that is something 544 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:50,200 that you can still continue to pursue. It's not, do you feel that this is the one or do you feel? 545 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:57,880 So, interpersonal skill is a skill which is universal. You can't do anything in an organization 546 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:02,040 or at home or anywhere without interpersonal skill. So, I wasn't really talking about the 547 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:07,640 interpersonal skill part of it. That was always required. Even earlier it was required. When we 548 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:14,440 were there, it was a key thing. It has been the key thing throughout as long as I think jobs and 549 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:19,480 even before jobs, even at home interpersonal skill is still important. You still need that to survive. 550 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,400 Yeah, maybe even more than job, you need interpersonal skill at home. But what I was 551 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:30,680 talking about is, if you look at what's happening today, the things are getting specialized. From 552 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:37,800 specialists, then came the era of MBAs where generalists became the norm and specialists 553 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:43,080 were paid very little and generalists who managed them got paid very high. It's moving back from 554 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:50,760 there that generalists are not really required so much as much as specialists are being looked for. 555 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:57,480 That as they call it, the ICs, the individual independent contributors, that's the stage which 556 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:01,880 is coming to everybody's talking about independent contributors. I mean, how much can you contribute 557 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:07,560 into independence? For that, you need to develop those skills. For instance, let me tell you, 558 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:12,280 I have been into marketing all the time. Suddenly this whole marketing scenario has changed into 559 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:17,720 digital and performance marketing. Now, I have no clue about what these things are. I'm learning, 560 00:39:17,720 --> 00:39:22,280 I'm acquiring those skills. I'm acquiring those skills and skills that you've learned earlier into 561 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:27,800 performance marketing or digital marketing. I cannot sit and say, my time marketing was like 562 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,320 this, I'm going to do it that way. So I'm going to keep changing and acquiring those skills. That's 563 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:37,720 what I mean by skill. So what is it that you see different? I know digital is a whole new ball game, 564 00:39:37,720 --> 00:39:42,600 but what are you struck by? What are the differences and where do you see the change? 565 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:49,400 So the change is predominantly with the consumer. I wouldn't say as much as with 566 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:55,240 product or the environment or the marketer as much as the marketer follows what's happening 567 00:39:55,240 --> 00:40:00,520 to the consumer. If the consumer demand is changing, marketer has to follow it. Otherwise, 568 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:04,680 you're not going to sell. So what's happening to consumer is that consumer has become fickle 569 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:10,440 because of options. When you look at product, there are hundreds of product options. When you 570 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:15,880 look at media, there are hundreds of media options. When you look at the pressure for his time, 571 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:22,200 he is distracted all the time. Attention span is so low. So you are, you're going to understand 572 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:27,400 who you're selling to. Earlier, you were selling to a guy who would sit for one and a half hours 573 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:32,360 watching Mahabharat on a Sunday and that's all he will watch through the day. After that, he has 574 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:36,520 nothing else to watch. So the whole day, he will repeat the dialogues of Mahabharat for, 575 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,440 the kid will repeat for the next one week to 10 days till the next Mahabharat happens. I mean, 576 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:46,280 that's not what it's going to be today. They're on their mobile. Just constantly information is 577 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:52,040 flooded at them. So that's a very different animal compared to what it was. I mean, I would say our 578 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:57,480 generation when we were kids or we were the key consumers at that point in time. So today's 579 00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:02,600 consumer is very different. And the whole challenge is in how do you get their attention in such a 580 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:07,800 fragmented, there will be two steps ahead on, you know, features all the time, because they, 581 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:12,600 the information is accurate information is available to them. So they are able to compare 582 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:17,320 and contrast very easily and then pick the right ones. We will be always ahead. So that's a huge 583 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:23,480 task for the marketer. And is that good or bad, Vishi? Because today in, if you look at a mobile 584 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:28,440 phone, you know, there's a huge amount of pressure on companies to come up with a new model practically 585 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:34,360 every year. And how much can you really change? Because if you look at, yes, it's the processor 586 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:39,800 speed and it's got down to things like does the phone lag a bit, you know, because essentially 587 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:47,320 the difference ever since the iPhone came up with the slab or all phones look, smartphones look the 588 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:53,960 same. The pressure is how do you differentiate and how do you say that you're better than the other? 589 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:59,080 The differences have become miniscule. Do you think that's true or do you think have a different 590 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:06,920 take on it? So, so competition is going to be technology is become very easy today. Earlier 591 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:11,960 technology was a differentiator. Today technology is not a different. You can buy the technology 592 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:17,720 from wherever you want to. The same guy is ready to make for 20 different people the same phone. 593 00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:25,000 I mean, today, you know, Philips is making electronic products for Samsung. Samsung is making 594 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:29,000 for Philips. They're interchanging and they're making for each other because technology is not 595 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:35,640 differentiator anymore. So it's a marketing, it's a product ideas. I mean, some of them which is, 596 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:41,800 so how do you, how do you, you know, package it and put it across to the customer, those things 597 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:49,080 are becoming far more important. And that's a good or bad. Well, I am a believer that we need to 598 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:55,320 simplify our lives, it's getting too complex. But that's a wish, which I don't think is going to 599 00:42:55,320 --> 00:43:03,160 come. I mean, it's going to be fulfilled because change is a one way thing and human nature or 600 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:08,920 wanting to want something new and different every day is a one way. They're not never going to go 601 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:15,880 back and say, I'm going to simplify my life. There will be a few sadhus or a few people who 602 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:20,920 wish that we go back and simplify our lives, but it's not going to happen. Every new generation is 603 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:27,320 going to keep on pushing that envelope towards more and more variety in our products. It's a 604 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:37,400 one way thing. Wonderful Rishi. So from that time in Karnal to the dairy factory to getting into 605 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:44,360 IIM, Ahmedabad to figuring out advertising and then building what is arguably one of India's 606 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:50,840 best known pen brands to a career as an entrepreneur, which we've not been able to get into, but this is 607 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:56,520 essentially about my first job. So I think that is where, so thank you for taking the time and 608 00:43:56,520 --> 00:44:02,760 it's been a wonderful session and thank you for coming on board and all the best. Thanks, 609 00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:09,400 Venu. Thanks. It was great. It was a pleasure talking to you and sharing a lot of it. Recall 610 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:18,760 was wonderful. Thank you. Thanks everybody. My first job, the podcast is a production from 611 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:26,760 Ideascape Communications. Guest relations, promotions and creative is managed by Deepa Ravi with 612 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:49,720 occasional support by Venu Gopal Nair. Archiving and technical help is provided by LPS Jayachandran.