1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:15,200 Hello everyone, welcome to the show. 2 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:21,000 With workplaces today being highly stressful, companies know that apart from team building 3 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:26,320 exercises, they need to provide counselling for employees to manage the pressure. 4 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:33,000 Usha Krishnamurthy did several things before she found what she loves helping people with 5 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,680 being the career psychologist. 6 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:41,400 In the fourth episode of My First Job, the podcast, she talks about how she took life 7 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:47,920 as it came, moving from teaching to helping children with learning disabilities to scribing. 8 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,320 My name is Venugopal Nair. 9 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:58,320 I'm the host and CEO of Ideascape Communications, an agency handling branding, design and creative 10 00:00:58,320 --> 00:00:59,320 executions. 11 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:07,080 Now, let's hear from Usha about a career driven by chance rather than intentions. 12 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:08,080 Welcome Usha. 13 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:10,360 Hi Venugopal, great to be here. 14 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:14,880 Counselling psychologist, do you end up meeting a fair number of young people? 15 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:21,560 So I would say that it's pretty much spans all ages, what crowds say about between 18 16 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:22,560 to 30. 17 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:27,440 Are their careers part of the areas of confusion, things that they want? 18 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:33,040 So work-life balance is pretty much something that we are constantly discussing. 19 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,800 I think, I mean, that is going to be a challenge for some time. 20 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:41,160 We had COVID recently and that upset everything. 21 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:49,640 And then now the transition from post-COVID to, you know, supposedly normal is challenging 22 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:50,640 as well. 23 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:57,920 So I think this work-life balance, this word is used a lot, but I think rightfully so. 24 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,440 Why don't we start with where you began? 25 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,760 Varanasi is where you took up your first job. 26 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:08,720 Why don't you tell me a little more about your childhood and a job and how it has evolved 27 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:09,800 in your mind? 28 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:15,320 So I feel like such an imposter can tell you very honestly at the outset that you invited 29 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:20,920 me for a podcast like this, because I would have never associated myself as somebody with 30 00:02:20,920 --> 00:02:24,520 a job or a career in that sense, right? 31 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:30,120 Because I just, it's only when I was, you know, I was being asked to list out what all 32 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:35,760 I've done that I said, okay, you know what, I have done some varied stuff. 33 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:42,880 Growing up, I think the accent was on academics and I was definitely a well-added student 34 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:47,080 studying in Sikandarabad and I was a commerce graduate. 35 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:53,760 I don't remember being that person who had these ideas about how I wanted my life to 36 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:58,680 be or, you know, there was no clear-cut idea that I want to be a doctor or an engineer. 37 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,000 I think I just went along with the flow. 38 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,520 So at that time, teaching was something that did appeal to me. 39 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:10,880 I had thought that, you know what, probably beard is something that I could do. 40 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:16,520 So when it happened that my dad being in the railways, we have traveled all over the country 41 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:20,480 and Benares, incidentally, was where I was born. 42 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:26,720 So when we went back for the second stint, this was about in 89, I mean, that's when 43 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:31,240 I joined the school, I got a chance to work in a convent there. 44 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:36,960 And you must understand that I hadn't done my beard, I had applied for it, but the school 45 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,940 administration was kind enough to take me on. 46 00:03:39,940 --> 00:03:44,400 So I think I worked there for about one and a half years and I had promised the principal 47 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,800 that I would send him my beard degree when I did it. 48 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:52,800 Memories of that school stint or the first time, I was very young. 49 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:57,680 So every time the principal would call the teachers, right, for a meeting to the office 50 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:03,040 or something, I remember, oh my God, I would be like, why am I being called to the principal's 51 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:04,040 office? 52 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:09,000 And then I would have to gently remind myself that, hey, you know what, you're the teacher, 53 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:10,320 you call the shots. 54 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:19,240 Pretty much was one of the youngest teachers there because I joined when I was 21 or I 55 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:20,280 was pretty young. 56 00:04:20,280 --> 00:04:25,680 But I think that's what really helped because all my students, I was teaching the 11th and 57 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:31,400 12th and they were all pretty much, you know, they were not much younger than me. 58 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,980 And it just seemed like, okay, I could make something. 59 00:04:34,980 --> 00:04:37,400 So I did my beard. 60 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:38,400 I think I did it. 61 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:40,760 I got my degree in June 91. 62 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:42,960 I got married end of the year. 63 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,800 It used to be a source of a little embarrassment for me. 64 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:51,020 I had also applied for my M.Com because I said, you know, after B.Com, M.Com would be 65 00:04:51,020 --> 00:04:53,480 a national transition. 66 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:59,000 And once I got married, I never went and completed that course. 67 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:03,480 It used to be, you know, there were moments when I used to be like, oh, I didn't finish 68 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:04,480 that. 69 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:10,680 But then being newly married, moving to Mumbai, I mean, everything was so new. 70 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:15,320 And I was like, okay, this is something that I'm going to pay more attention to. 71 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:19,800 So then obviously immediately after marriage, it takes time to settle down. 72 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,200 You're finding yourself in a new place. 73 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,240 You're getting to know a new person. 74 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,720 You're getting to know a new city. 75 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:28,720 You're making a new set of friends. 76 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:29,820 Absolutely. 77 00:05:29,820 --> 00:05:37,280 So how did you sort of navigate towards that second professional part of your life? 78 00:05:37,280 --> 00:05:39,880 The Dawar's Secretarial Institute. 79 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,360 It was a very famous one in Mumbai. 80 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:49,200 And they were looking for somebody to teach accounts because as a secretary, you're supposed 81 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,680 to also know a little bit of accounting. 82 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:56,680 And it used to be a small group of 20 people to whom I will be teaching accounts. 83 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:58,960 So that was very comfortable again. 84 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,440 It was not so intimidating. 85 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:07,800 And having had that stint of teaching unruly students who never took me seriously, this 86 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:08,800 was okay. 87 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:13,880 Through Dawar's I got this opportunity to English speaking and etiquette. 88 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,640 It was in Great Eastern shipping, I remember. 89 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:22,600 I had to go to this company, and I would have to teach them how you would communicate and 90 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:32,320 how words, vocabulary and pretty much is like finishing school but a little different. 91 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,120 And these were all people who were working there. 92 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:40,960 And I always used to wonder that here I am just balling in saying, I can teach you. 93 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:46,280 And these are all pretty senior people who've been probably having much longer careers than 94 00:06:46,280 --> 00:06:47,280 mine. 95 00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:54,720 But the openness with which they welcomed me there and understood that I would be value 96 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,800 adding to them, I think made that experience really nice. 97 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:00,280 I made some friends there. 98 00:07:00,280 --> 00:07:04,280 We would go out for coffee and it was a very nice group. 99 00:07:04,280 --> 00:07:12,840 At that time, I was applying in schools, and I got an offer from a school called Manekji 100 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:16,120 Cooper and I found out I was pregnant. 101 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:22,160 So pretty much that became the most important event for me. 102 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,720 And I think I took to that. 103 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:26,880 That was my job for quite some time. 104 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:34,040 So I had that little fun stint where I was on my own and I used to travel quite a bit. 105 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:40,400 So I felt like a Mumbai girl because I was traveling by train from Bandra to Churchgate. 106 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,760 And so it was again a fun experience for me. 107 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:50,280 In terms of accounts, were you preparing hard for classes or it came to you fairly easily? 108 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,040 I think I'm fluent in English. 109 00:07:52,040 --> 00:08:00,920 I think that helped because it was easier to explain or hold the classes attention. 110 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,560 I can't say I waltzed into class without reading up. 111 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:11,480 Remember that these were 11th and 12th standards who are very quick to pull you down or call 112 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:15,880 you out if you hadn't done your homework. 113 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:23,280 A certain amount of preparation did go in and I felt very accountable to the administration, 114 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:25,180 the principal. 115 00:08:25,180 --> 00:08:30,680 As I told you, I felt like I was a student, so I said I have to do my job well. 116 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:35,200 I think the students liked me a lot because of the way I was teaching. 117 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:42,600 So that did make me feel that I had it in me to be somebody who could teach in a class. 118 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:48,200 So accounts you could sort of prepare, but when it comes to things in a finishing school 119 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,920 or what you said, how did you approach that? 120 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:54,480 I used the word finishing school. 121 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:55,480 It was not that. 122 00:08:55,480 --> 00:09:00,120 It was just that I was interacting with a bunch of people. 123 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:05,680 So it almost takes you to that, oh, you're not teaching them how to use a fork and a 124 00:09:05,680 --> 00:09:06,680 knife. 125 00:09:06,680 --> 00:09:08,240 I think it was very informal. 126 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:14,320 It's more for them to understand that presentation is very important, that you could know your 127 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:19,840 subject or you could know the words, but how are you going to communicate it to somebody? 128 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:26,600 And so I think it was more like a morale booster for the employees to know that the company 129 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:31,280 is thinking of them as that they could benefit. 130 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:36,920 So I don't think there was too much pressure on them or on me in that sense, because I 131 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:43,640 mean, what are the results helped ease the pressure and it became a little more informal. 132 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:50,600 So the next phase was actually we were living in New Bombay, which was a very small community 133 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:51,600 place. 134 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:53,200 Everybody kind of knew each other. 135 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:58,040 So my son was privileged to study in the same school for 10 years. 136 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:02,880 I knew the vice principal, the principal, everybody, and they knew that I was trained 137 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:03,880 to be a teacher. 138 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:10,440 So I would get called, roped in for substitute teaching, like if a teacher is offered, you 139 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:11,440 know, this. 140 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:15,880 So I would go along with my son and sometimes, you know, be there. 141 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,200 And that used to keep happening. 142 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:24,880 I would be on call to the vice principal, Vijaya Man, who's a lovely, lovely person, 143 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:29,280 who's been quite an inspiration for me, used to keep calling me. 144 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:37,320 And so I think it was around 2007 when my son was also didn't need me as much. 145 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:42,880 And I was also they started a national open school in the school. 146 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,520 I mean, the same school that he was studying in. 147 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:52,800 It was a wonderful project that they started because a lot of students with learning disabilities 148 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:58,120 get thrown out in the ninth and tenth by the schools because, you know, the merit list 149 00:10:58,120 --> 00:10:59,760 is going to get affected. 150 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:04,800 They started classes for ninth, tenth, eleventh and twelfth because you in the open school 151 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,880 system, you have the tenth board and the twelfth board. 152 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:12,840 So these students were being prepared to pass their tenth and their twelfth so that then, 153 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,360 you know, they could go for vocational. 154 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:21,320 So again, I was called upon to teach accounts and economics. 155 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,960 That was a part time thing. 156 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:29,520 And yes, that required a little preparation because understanding that these were students 157 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:35,160 with learning challenges, you would have to break down the imagine, you know, economics 158 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:36,720 as dry as it is. 159 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:41,180 You'd have to break it down in point form and try to use simpler words. 160 00:11:41,180 --> 00:11:44,080 So it required a little bit of work. 161 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:49,360 And mind you, we would have 30 students and 25 students in a class and each student would 162 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:53,600 come up with his own or her own challenges as well. 163 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,360 So that is quite an endeavor by the school. 164 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:02,320 They were visually impaired or they simply could not see it all. 165 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:03,640 So no, no, no. 166 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:05,120 So this is sorry. 167 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:07,120 This is not that bad. 168 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:08,120 Yeah. 169 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,820 This was students with learning disability. 170 00:12:10,820 --> 00:12:19,160 So they had issues maybe of dyscalculia or dysgraphia or, you know, so these were students 171 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:22,280 who were trying to pass their tenth and twelfth. 172 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:27,760 So my stint in Mumbai at that time was with teaching in a school. 173 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,240 So that was, yeah. 174 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:35,320 So these children, what kind of, how would you approach teaching them? 175 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,040 You said children with special needs. 176 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:39,040 What would be the? 177 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:40,040 Yeah. 178 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,640 How was it managing a class with that? 179 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:49,560 So it's like literally unlearning what you've learned in a traditional classroom because 180 00:12:49,560 --> 00:12:54,160 you just go there and you give your lecture and some interaction. 181 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:59,920 So the demand of the job was that you have to be teaching them like a special educator 182 00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:02,160 because we were all mothers. 183 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:06,720 I was one of the few who was a teacher, but then we were all mothers who volunteered there 184 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:12,560 because we were very invested in this endeavor ourselves. 185 00:13:12,560 --> 00:13:17,920 So it's not like teaching in the traditional sense, breaking it down. 186 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,520 So it's to simplify. 187 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:25,540 How much more simple can you make it so that students had to pass that in control? 188 00:13:25,540 --> 00:13:27,000 That was pretty much the goal. 189 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:28,000 Right. 190 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,440 And it was a party every time we had these results. 191 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:32,440 And yeah. 192 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:40,680 And those three years, I mean, I don't think we've had too many students who couldn't 193 00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:45,280 compete or even if they did, we would kind of push them. 194 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:49,260 And the next year that, you know, because NIOS, the system is wonderful. 195 00:13:49,260 --> 00:13:54,720 You can write the exam every six months and you can write it one paper at a time. 196 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:55,720 So there's a time. 197 00:13:55,720 --> 00:14:02,480 So we would be able to focus, really work with the students to help them pass. 198 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:06,960 So our goal was to get them that 12th standard degree. 199 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:12,120 It's such a wonderful thing that these children would have been among a very small minority 200 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:13,760 who actually had the access. 201 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:18,560 Vashi, they were in a good school or at least they were located somewhere close by. 202 00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:23,720 But as you move in further, I think a lot of places in India, I doubt if any of these 203 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,200 kind of efforts beyond the point. 204 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,960 I'm sure there are schools doing great work. 205 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:28,960 All of these things, obviously. 206 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:30,880 And then what would happen? 207 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,840 They do their 10th and 12th and then go in for some kind of vocational training. 208 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:35,840 Vocational training. 209 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:41,800 I think national open school, the schooling system that the government started is that's 210 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:48,120 been quite the moon for students with learning challenges because you have varied subjects, 211 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:49,120 right? 212 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,520 You have home science, you have typing, you have computers. 213 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:59,600 I mean, a student is not restricted to math or English was the only compulsory subject, 214 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,480 but that flexibility, right? 215 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:07,840 They had more room to maneuver and figure out what was it they could be good at. 216 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,840 Even the fact that we would have students who chose home science and they've gone on 217 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,320 to catering and nutrition. 218 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:20,760 And I think it's a wonderful thing that we have national open NIOS, the system in place 219 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:21,760 in our country. 220 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,320 So from there, Usha, what happened next? 221 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:26,320 How long? 222 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:30,400 I think about two and a half, three years till we moved to Chennai. 223 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:36,600 I have to say I didn't take to Chennai very well because I was leaving Mumbai of 18 years, 224 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:40,160 all my friends and Chennai was only home. 225 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:45,840 I mean, since we would come here for holidays to see our respective parents, it took me 226 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,520 some time to get used, warm up to Chennai. 227 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:50,920 I pretty much had nothing to do. 228 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:57,440 So I remember joining yoga class and then somebody spoke about scribing because I was 229 00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:58,580 always interested. 230 00:15:58,580 --> 00:16:04,800 So since I'd had that stint with children with learning challenges, I was kind of telling 231 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:10,040 myself that maybe I should be doing, you know, a bachelor's in special education. 232 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,160 So I started off scribing. 233 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:18,860 So that's when, you know, I've had opportunities to write for visually challenged. 234 00:16:18,860 --> 00:16:19,860 This brought me... 235 00:16:19,860 --> 00:16:21,960 It's almost like dictation. 236 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,160 They would tell you and you wrote? 237 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:25,760 Yes, pretty much. 238 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:31,200 For somebody who had forgotten how it was to write, to put pen to paper. 239 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:36,160 My handwriting was all over the place and I was like, this kid is going to fail because 240 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:40,280 I'm the one who's the scribe and they would have a lot to say. 241 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:41,880 So they don't have visual cues. 242 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:48,480 So they're just dictating and I am like trying to keep up and yeah, there was immense pressure 243 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:53,720 on me because I somehow took it personally that if I don't write well, they are failing. 244 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:54,720 That's it. 245 00:16:54,720 --> 00:17:01,320 So that is interesting because the period with which they defy, you know, what odds 246 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,560 they have, definitely value adding for me. 247 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:09,400 I definitely hope they passed because I wrote their papers to them. 248 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:11,880 But it was, I mean, I was connecting, right? 249 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:17,880 Here I was in a new state and my social circle was limited to my mom and my mother-in-law 250 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:22,320 wonderful women, but I missed my friends. 251 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:27,680 So these were these little connections that I was making that I was beginning to really 252 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:28,680 enjoy. 253 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:30,760 I used to scribe for children in school colleges. 254 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,200 I've written for law students. 255 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:38,520 I remember this law student who understood very quickly that my English was good then, 256 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:43,720 you know, his grammar was pretty all over the place and he was pretty much like, madam, 257 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,840 I mean, you know how to write, just write. 258 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:51,120 So it was hard for me to write grammatically wrong. 259 00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:53,160 So it was very amusing. 260 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:54,520 It was fun. 261 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,520 And if he didn't finish a paper on time, both of us would be panicking. 262 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:03,120 I remember asking the person who'd come to collect the paper, another 10 minutes and 263 00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:10,280 it took me back to my school days and it was like the fun time. 264 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:11,280 Yeah. 265 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:12,280 Yeah. 266 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:13,280 Exactly. 267 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:17,200 I was standing just for that particular thing, run back and forth. 268 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:18,200 Absolutely. 269 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:19,200 And I felt very protective. 270 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:26,360 No, I'm sorry, but I think you've made some very unusual experiments with, because like 271 00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:31,000 you said, okay, if you were born, most people would look at a hobby or look at something 272 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:36,760 like that, but you decided that no, I'll actually go into something like this, which I think 273 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:37,760 is fairly unusual, right? 274 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:39,800 It's the way you were built. 275 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:46,480 I find it hard to comment about myself, but that just seemed like the thing I could do 276 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:47,680 at that time. 277 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:53,400 I got introduced to this organization called Chennai Volunteers, which is connecting volunteers 278 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:58,680 with NGOs and people who need volunteers. 279 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,240 So to them also, I got a stint to teach English. 280 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:08,160 I used to go to Madras Seva Sadan and other schools that they had tied up with. 281 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:14,960 So Vidyasagar, which was where I used to go, the icecribe, it was from there. 282 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:20,920 I somehow, what I'm going to preempt your question is to why counseling? 283 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:28,120 So when I was in this phase when I was trying to do something, a conversation with a friend 284 00:19:28,120 --> 00:19:33,360 of school friend of mine, and she said that, you know what, this is something that's great. 285 00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:39,440 And somehow then, I mean, I got hooked onto the idea that why not counseling, maybe not 286 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:46,680 special ed, because I had a lot of my colleagues in teachers who would say that, hey, you know 287 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,120 what, you're somebody the kids find very easy to access. 288 00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:57,320 So they'll come and talk to you or they would share a lot of stuff that they probably wouldn't 289 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,240 share with the other teachers. 290 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,880 So I just thought, okay, so why not counseling? 291 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,800 I like people. 292 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:13,920 I think I had gone to Vidyasagar to inquire about doing bachelors in special ed. 293 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,120 Vidyasagar used to conduct a course at that time. 294 00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:21,880 And I remember going and meeting them and checking up about the syllabus and all that, 295 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:23,920 reading about icecribe there. 296 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:29,240 And then I said, okay, you know what, this till I figure out when I'm going to start, 297 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,480 I'm going to use my time, because I have a lot of free time. 298 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:38,920 So icecribe is something that is being, I mean, Vidyasagar is one of those who, you 299 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:42,200 know, they were doing that program. 300 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,240 Pretty much that's how I got the idea. 301 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:51,920 So what happened was Vidyasagar had a course that they had for in 2013, I remember that 302 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:57,920 they had a small three months course on counseling with people with disability. 303 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:02,840 So the accent of counseling was on working with people with challenges. 304 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:09,920 I remember that three month course was absolutely fantastic because, you know, the energy of 305 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,160 the group, we were about 15 of us. 306 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:17,760 Shivagami, who was conducting the course, was much younger than most of us. 307 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:26,280 But the way she was able to put across to us what is required, I think I got my taste 308 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:33,240 or idea of what counseling actually demanded of you by just that three month course, because 309 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:37,960 it pretty much prepared mentally prepared me that, okay, you know what, this is what 310 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:42,320 you're signing up for if you decide to go down this path. 311 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:48,040 And then I said, okay, you know, if I want to be working, I have to do a post graduation. 312 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:55,480 So counseling requires at least my understanding, it requires drawing people out, it requires 313 00:21:55,480 --> 00:22:00,440 a lot of empathy, it requires great listening skills. 314 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:05,680 What are your views and impressions of counseling and how it helps people? 315 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:11,880 So when I did counseling, I have to, I mean, when I signed up to study for the group, I 316 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,320 was not aware of how it exists. 317 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,760 I mean, in our country, I mean, we've heard of counseling. 318 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:24,920 I mean, I've seen umpteen Hollywood films where they're talking about therapy. 319 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:29,480 But I never really knew how it was in India, in Chennai. 320 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:34,960 As far as I was concerned, I thought that it's going to be, I'm going to be this person 321 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,040 who somebody can come and talk to and share. 322 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:43,280 It'll be that safe space where we can figure out together something that they've been trying 323 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,080 to deal on their own. 324 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,200 So as you said, listening empathy was, I mean, that's part of the course. 325 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:56,480 I was not aware of how many people would take to counseling or whether there was a, you 326 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,800 know, opening for it. 327 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:04,600 It was just something that I thought it aligned with what I could deliver as a person. 328 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,440 So I think I just went about it. 329 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:12,320 I don't think I thought too deeply about what value adding I was going to do and all that. 330 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,800 I wish I could say something profound here, but nothing. 331 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:21,840 I think the most practical people actually bring about the greatest change rather than 332 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,320 saying I'm going to bring about change. 333 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:29,760 I think the people who change others and who do it actually get down to the, they don't 334 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:31,240 speak much about it. 335 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,920 They sort of deal with it on an ongoing basis. 336 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,800 I mean, I was just naive. 337 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:38,800 So what is it like? 338 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:43,880 What is it when you've met your first set of people that you had to counsel and how 339 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:48,280 did that slowly change or how did you go about that? 340 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,640 Do you remember the early days after? 341 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:55,520 Did you set up a practice or did you go and work out with people? 342 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,640 How exactly did it come about? 343 00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:58,640 Yeah. 344 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,160 So I got my degree in 2014. 345 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,520 I was still figuring out how I'm going to start working because nobody knows me. 346 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:11,320 Through my uncle, I got a contact to meet Dr. Vijay Kumar. 347 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,440 They have a Dr. Lakshmi Vijay Kumar, Dr. Vijay 348 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:20,840 So they run a practice and through my uncle, I got a chance to go meet them. 349 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,880 I had said to just let me be in your clinic. 350 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,680 They are psychiatrists and I said, just let me be with you all. 351 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,520 And they had two counselors at that time on board. 352 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:31,920 So I said, I just want to observe. 353 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,480 I just want to kind of be like an intern. 354 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,360 So I was definitely okay about it. 355 00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:42,760 And I remember going to the two counselors and requesting them, can I sit in the sessions? 356 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,120 And that was really hard. 357 00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:50,200 I think I was able to sit in two sessions only because it's very hard for a client to 358 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,800 agree to a third person in the room. 359 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:57,640 I mean, if I was a client, I wouldn't agree to having somebody. 360 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,280 And then they started referring clients. 361 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,080 The other two counselors were male and I was female. 362 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:09,200 So I think sometimes women would say, okay, I want to talk to a, so I think by default, 363 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,080 I started getting female clients. 364 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:17,760 And then I think 15 days down the line, sir said that, you know what, why don't you just 365 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:22,640 come here and as and when we get cases, we are going to send them to you. 366 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,360 And that's how it started. 367 00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:25,360 Zero experience. 368 00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:32,400 I mean, they just took a chance on me and I have to give them complete credit for just 369 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:37,520 trusting that, okay, here's this person who's going to work with, I mean, their patients, 370 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:38,520 right? 371 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,600 It's at the end of the day, people, they were treating many. 372 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:42,600 Yeah. 373 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,680 So, so I started operating out of their clinic. 374 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,520 They operate out of Raju hospital in T Nagar in Santhome. 375 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:50,680 They had their own clinic. 376 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,640 So I never had my own. 377 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:54,080 I felt very safe there. 378 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:55,080 Right? 379 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,520 Here was a place where if I had to run for help and there they were. 380 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,560 So now we'll come back since we're talking of jobs. 381 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:08,320 If you could tell us a little about the kind of issues that people have with jobs and careers 382 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:13,800 and how they sort of handle them and what do they, you know, what is it that disturbs 383 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:14,800 them? 384 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:19,520 Is it the loss of control over their lives or do they feel they're not advanced enough? 385 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,240 What are the things that people come to you? 386 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:27,360 I had a opportunity to be, I mean, I am an affiliate counselor in the EAP program. 387 00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:33,240 There is a lot of companies give their employees three sessions. 388 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:38,160 So they have the option of using that about a year into my counseling. 389 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,040 I got a chance to do that as well. 390 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,480 So I used to have a lot of clients who would come through the corporate system. 391 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,800 I used to always think that since it's coming through the corporate side, it will probably 392 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,920 have to do a lot with work. 393 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:58,680 So coming to the job part, challenges, some of the biggest challenges would be interpersonal 394 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,280 relationships and all this. 395 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:08,600 I think at the end of the day, it boils down to us as human connecting on a human to human. 396 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:15,200 So invariably, it would be not being able to get along with their bosses, with their 397 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:22,880 peers, a lot of maybe bullying, of course, not being able to deliver if they had deadlines. 398 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:30,600 But I think mostly at the root of it would be these relationships impact their emotional 399 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,840 state of mind because you have to be balanced to be able to deliver. 400 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,800 And automatically, when you're talking about work-life balance, their ability to work in 401 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:44,400 the office environment, a lot had to do with their personal space as well. 402 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:49,280 If you started talking to them, you would find that the root cause would be somewhere 403 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:50,280 else. 404 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:55,040 I have had people who've come in, we have specifically worked on, okay, how do we be 405 00:27:55,040 --> 00:28:02,240 more assertive in office or how do we draw boundaries or how am I going to work with 406 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,320 this colleague of mine? 407 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:10,640 And so interpersonal was something, especially in the office environment, there were clients 408 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,840 who would be very specific about that as well. 409 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:14,840 Yeah. 410 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:15,840 Yeah. 411 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:21,320 And like you said, there are so many of these overlaps, like bullying, you said it continues 412 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:22,320 at the office. 413 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:27,480 We always somehow seem to believe that bullying ends in school, but that is not the case at 414 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:28,480 all. 415 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:33,400 It carries on and all this passive aggressive stuff at times as to how people want to get 416 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:40,520 it done, the sense of power in the office, you know, all of these are real problems. 417 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:47,560 Would you say that on a gender basis, since you are a woman, you met a lot more women 418 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:48,560 than men? 419 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,440 Are you talking about in the corporate setup? 420 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,120 Yeah, in the corporate setup. 421 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:53,120 Yeah. 422 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,120 No, I think it was a very fair mix. 423 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,960 I mean, I've had a lot of women clients as well. 424 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,280 So I mean, if you're asking me if there were more men than women, no, not at all. 425 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,120 It would be equally divided. 426 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:14,160 A lot of women employees would also reach out and through this EAP program, I sometimes 427 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,960 used to go for on-site to companies at that time. 428 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,680 Cognizant was one of the clients of our EAP. 429 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:28,600 I would be asked to handhold when an employee was being terminated or in Cognizant, they 430 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:35,160 had this system where a newbie had to write three levels of some exams and they had three 431 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:41,880 chances and a lot of these fresh engineering graduates would come in with, you know, a 432 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:47,760 lot of starry eyes, okay, I'm in Cognizant, but they wouldn't be able to clear the exams. 433 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:55,200 I would be asked to talk to these, you know, to kind of motivate them and tell them, hey, 434 00:29:55,200 --> 00:30:01,120 you know what, you have only one more chance because they were all in that state where 435 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,000 they were like, what's the worst? 436 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:04,480 I mean, it's an exam. 437 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,840 And then the third attempt they would feel and they would be asked to leave. 438 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:13,880 Literally, I mean, they would be, their belongings are given and they're asked, clear your desk. 439 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:20,120 It used to be quite counseling, very intensive because you're not prepping for anything. 440 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:21,120 You literally just. 441 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:28,280 I mean, you literally have to, it's almost as if, you know, you have to come in and manage 442 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:34,880 an emotionally fraught situation where the person doesn't have a clue. 443 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,600 One is, like you said, they've gotten to Cognizant, so they think they have, or, you know, a very 444 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,840 large company and from here on, it will be smooth sailing. 445 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,120 And suddenly they're told it's not. 446 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:49,840 Then is it that you build courage or you tell them that this is not the end of the world 447 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,040 or how do you handle situations? 448 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:56,320 You have to understand in these situations, I've not had the time to really connect to 449 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:57,320 them. 450 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:02,080 Like in counseling, we talk about that for a session to really work, rapport is very 451 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:03,080 important. 452 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:04,080 Human to human connect. 453 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:05,880 In these situations, they didn't know. 454 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,680 I mean, they just asked to come and talk to me and that's it. 455 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,920 But the fact is that they were young kids, they were scared kids. 456 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:18,720 They were suddenly being told that they are not good enough, that you have this engineering 457 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:23,680 degree and you've told everybody at home that I've joined Cognizant, but suddenly you're 458 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,480 being told that sorry boss, you're not fit. 459 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:33,120 To me, immediately to calm them down was what was, you know, priority for them to be able 460 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:39,440 to even take that walk and go outside that gate, to give them time to went, to give them 461 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:47,200 time to speak aloud their fears, their sense of shame or whatever they felt was coming 462 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,200 from their parents or from their peers. 463 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:56,840 And these are also many students who had probably not got the job as soon as they had passed 464 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:57,840 out. 465 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:02,720 They probably got it the next year or there was so much that was invested for them. 466 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,300 And it was also like, oh, I wish I knew this was important. 467 00:32:06,300 --> 00:32:08,000 So there was a lot of regret. 468 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:15,360 I think it was just to be there for them and understand that while nothing can be done, 469 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:20,360 let's just stay together in this moment that you're not alone, that I'm here, I'm hearing 470 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:26,920 you and participating in your, you know, in your regret and in your shame. 471 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,080 And I'm giving you that space to feel that without questioning and saying, why the hell 472 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:32,440 didn't you study then? 473 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:33,440 What are you doing? 474 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:34,440 What are you thinking? 475 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:35,440 Right. 476 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,680 Which would be easy to say. 477 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:43,520 So, but to find it in me to say, okay, I'm just going to hear you. 478 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:49,440 I'm going to give you the space here so that when you step out of the room, you're able 479 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:54,520 to at least hold your head and say, okay, you know, this happened, but now I'm going 480 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:55,520 to move forward. 481 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,800 So I think listening pretty much a lot of listening. 482 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:06,400 This is the part of the job, you know, the others are all the celebrations are all huge 483 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,160 party, all of that. 484 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:14,960 But yeah, this sense of, am I really good enough, which, you know, which all of us, 485 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:20,960 I think at some point in time in our lives are questioning, though we forget that everyone 486 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:22,360 is going through the same phase. 487 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:27,920 So it's not as if we are in different boards, people, and maybe things that we are good 488 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,600 at that others are not good, but all of that just gets relegated to the background. 489 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,560 This becomes the single most important thing. 490 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:40,360 Do you think that these are massive turning points or does it defeat some people? 491 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:41,360 Where is it motivated? 492 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,480 Have you seen this effect in two things? 493 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,960 One is that I will show you what happens. 494 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:48,960 Yeah. 495 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:49,960 Take it as a challenge. 496 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:50,960 Yeah, it's a challenge. 497 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:51,960 The others are broken. 498 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:52,960 Yeah. 499 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:59,680 So how do you, I don't pressurize myself to detach at all. 500 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:07,200 It is sometimes, I mean, you are privileged to hear somebody's story and it's hard to 501 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,120 be disconnected from that. 502 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,800 So in that room, I'm completely connected. 503 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:14,520 I am crying with you. 504 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:16,800 I am feeling hurt with you. 505 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,200 I am feeling ashamed along with you. 506 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:24,000 And so it's hard to completely detach. 507 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:29,040 I have had times when I've come home and, you know, boiled my guts out. 508 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:34,120 I have, you know, had to take time to collect myself. 509 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:40,040 I have a wonderful friend to whom I mean, she's my, I need to talk to you. 510 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,280 And she's also a counselor. 511 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:48,120 So I'm able to discuss without, you know, because confidentiality being that important. 512 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:52,960 So she is able to understand where I am to process it sometimes. 513 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,840 So it's some cases can be extremely difficult. 514 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:02,080 You have to understand that there is, they call it self of counseling, right? 515 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:08,960 I mean, I am a person who brings my belief and value systems to the table as well. 516 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,480 So I can't not be me in that room as well. 517 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:18,400 So there is also a battle going on in my head when I am trying to understand, hey, you're 518 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,620 saying something that doesn't make sense to me at all. 519 00:35:21,620 --> 00:35:25,120 And I could have dealt with it very differently, but you haven't. 520 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:29,320 So I'm going to try and understand why you did it that way. 521 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:30,320 Right. 522 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:39,320 So it can be sometimes exhausting, but sometimes you get to see shades of people. 523 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:46,720 It can be awe inspiring because they will be narrating their life stories and you will 524 00:35:46,720 --> 00:35:49,840 be like, Hey, how are you even alive? 525 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,720 I mean, what are you made of? 526 00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:59,560 And I need a little bit of that because, yes, they are coming because they are struggling 527 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:00,560 with something. 528 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:05,760 But sometimes it's just to remind them that you've got this. 529 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:07,640 You've done this before. 530 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,560 Right now you're in a cloud. 531 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,120 So you need some hand holding in that direction. 532 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:19,480 But you know, so I, yes, I do have to work on myself. 533 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:24,920 And I mean, if I come home, it's not that I can talk to my husband about the work that 534 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:25,920 I do. 535 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:31,280 It's not like I can share and say, you know what, today I had a bad day at work. 536 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,160 So there is zero sharing. 537 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,900 So I have to kind of figure it out. 538 00:36:36,900 --> 00:36:43,720 But I think probably my personality also is that to some extent, I am able to understand 539 00:36:43,720 --> 00:36:46,960 that, okay, now that's space. 540 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:52,240 I remember the initial one year of counseling, I used to have clients who would come for 541 00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:54,240 sessions and then they would disappear. 542 00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:56,560 And then I would be beating myself up. 543 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,240 Okay, what did I do? 544 00:36:58,240 --> 00:37:01,480 I was really bad or what? 545 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,880 And I remember going to Dr. Ajay Kumar sir and saying, I'm very worried. 546 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,200 And he said, see, your job is in that room. 547 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:16,520 After that, what they do with whatever you have discussed or processed with them is theirs. 548 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:21,840 So if you think, you know, so somewhere when he said that that's not your responsibility, 549 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,480 it took such a huge load off. 550 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:29,120 Because then I was able to understand that, you know, here I was thinking I'm this, bearing 551 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:35,160 this magic wand and saving people's lives and a shot of a halo, I was, you know, I thought 552 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,200 I was everything. 553 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:42,780 And he absolutely I, you can that can happen sometimes, right? 554 00:37:42,780 --> 00:37:45,280 Because you are in that position. 555 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,960 So he told me he said, understand that it's a job. 556 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:55,200 So sometimes you have to tell yourself that you have limitations as a human being that 557 00:37:55,200 --> 00:38:00,920 what you are telling that person, they're not ready to buy at that time. 558 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,320 As simple as that, or it could be something a lot more complex. 559 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:05,320 Exactly. 560 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:06,480 A lot more complex. 561 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:13,240 But if I'm going to but I have to do that little introspection and try to think about, 562 00:38:13,240 --> 00:38:19,160 okay, is there something I could have done better as a therapist and, you know, learning 563 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,120 from the session. 564 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,560 So one thing is the detachment. 565 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:30,120 The other is, is counseling emotionally exhausting, dealing with a fair amount of conflict. 566 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,320 People who come to you are conflicted. 567 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:38,880 And throughout the sessions, you're talking to people who are not in a happy frame. 568 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:39,880 Absolutely. 569 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:40,880 Yeah. 570 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:46,600 Does that affect your emotional well-being or have you learned over time to kind of? 571 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:48,200 No, no, no. 572 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:53,120 So I think self care is not just for me as a counselor, right? 573 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:59,440 I think self care is something that as human beings, we have to be doing. 574 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:04,800 When I ask clients what they what comes up for them, and I use the word health immediately, 575 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,280 everyone is thinking of exercise. 576 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,400 But it's not right when we're talking about health. 577 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,200 We're talking about emotional, mental and physical health. 578 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,200 So physical is a very small portion. 579 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:17,320 That's exactly what came. 580 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:18,680 Very small portion. 581 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:24,400 So when you talk of self care, I think that goes for anybody in any job, right? 582 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:29,600 Whatever challenges you have, whether that's timelines, whether that's physical challenges 583 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:31,920 or emotional, right? 584 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,760 So the demands are going to be made on you no matter what. 585 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,200 So here is what I would my opinion about it. 586 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:46,440 As a person, as a human being, I understand that I know how to set boundaries with that 587 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:53,160 person and be in that room or in that space with them as a counselor. 588 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:58,400 But if they find it hard, they're never going to feel safe talking to me, which is why we 589 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:03,160 say that sometimes with family, I mean, why would I mean, why would you have counselors 590 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,280 if we could all talk to family and friends, right? 591 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:12,720 We become that third person who's that safe space where you can go to person because you're 592 00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:20,600 not able to depend or rely or you worry that you're hurting them or you don't want to 593 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:25,200 trouble them or you don't think that it's OK. 594 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,720 So I mean, so that's why you have counselors, right? 595 00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:33,680 Otherwise, we I mean, come on, we all have friends and family. 596 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:40,880 Here's that other part, which is that you're working with special children being a scribe. 597 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:45,360 Has that in some way do you think it's very hard for us to answer this question? 598 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,360 But what is your? 599 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:52,160 So so here is what I've been saying when I said that I feel like an imposter when you 600 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,360 call me for a first job podcast. 601 00:40:54,360 --> 00:41:00,240 OK, so because I have never looked at whatever I've done as a job in that. 602 00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:03,760 So it's always been about experiences for me, I think. 603 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:08,920 And I think even to this day, I'm not going to be somebody if somebody asks me, what do 604 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:09,920 you do? 605 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,080 I'd like to quickly. 606 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:18,920 I remember when I was not working and we used to go to these parties. 607 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:25,160 My husband used to take these financial parties and there would be a lot of women, obviously, 608 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:29,040 who were having wonderful careers in the finance field. 609 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:33,240 And they were all conversations would happen and they would be like, oh, so what do you 610 00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:34,240 do? 611 00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:36,880 And I would be like, oh, what do I do? 612 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:37,880 There is no definition. 613 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:38,880 Right. 614 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:43,680 And I remember sometimes coming back from these parties saying, this is embarrassing. 615 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:45,720 I'm not sure if I want to go the next time. 616 00:41:45,720 --> 00:41:47,400 I have nothing to offer. 617 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,200 I have nothing to talk about. 618 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:54,160 Still, there was one party where this lady, it was like she was a beacon of light because 619 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,520 everybody was attracted to her. 620 00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:00,560 And she was like the life of the party and people are asking, so what do you do? 621 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,840 And she said, I am the queen of my life. 622 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:03,960 I live a privileged life. 623 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:05,240 I do nothing. 624 00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:09,760 And that that home from I said, you know what? 625 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,640 It's not about what you do. 626 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,160 It's about how you want to define yourself. 627 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:22,440 So I think that day some some I mean, a little bit of a baggage kind of was dropped. 628 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:24,040 Yeah, lifted. 629 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:29,240 So I don't think I take myself too seriously to say, OK, you know, so I wouldn't I mean, 630 00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:34,080 if you asked me and I'm introducing, I would never tell you what I do unless you ask me, 631 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:35,160 so what do you do? 632 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:41,840 So I find it still a bit hard to you know, the imposter still shows up quite a bit. 633 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:49,400 So that's the thing I find strange, that you know, you being in advertising, we should 634 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,440 be the biggest imposter. 635 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:55,360 Oh, yeah, you sell and we buy. 636 00:42:55,360 --> 00:43:00,720 But as far as we're concerned, I think it's a it's something that we've done. 637 00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:07,640 It's it's been a wonderful conversation with you because I thought that it's the beginning, 638 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,120 which will be the part that defines you. 639 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:15,760 But I think you grew into a into the job and you know, everything from teaching accounts 640 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:22,280 to special children to striving for the blind and then this moment when you said that I'll 641 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,880 do counselling and all those sessions that you talk about, I think you do a very important 642 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,760 bit of helping people understand. 643 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:34,080 Like you said, you define and that's a very, very important statement. 644 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,560 You define who you are and how your life. 645 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,840 So thank you for coming on the show. 646 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:40,840 It's my privilege. 647 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:48,600 Yeah, I'm glad to be one of the initial people to be called to the podcast. 648 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:53,560 And maybe I'm going to yeah, I'm going to start telling people, you know, I this is 649 00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:55,040 the job that I do. 650 00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:56,040 Yes. 651 00:43:56,040 --> 00:44:02,160 It's connecting a lot of young people will take heart from whatever you've just said, 652 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:06,320 because I think that's another important point that the company brings in a counsellor rather 653 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,800 than somebody just saying, OK, here's your letter. 654 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,000 There's at least half an hour. 655 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:12,000 It's like a buffer. 656 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:13,000 Right. 657 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:14,000 Absolutely. 658 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,880 Yeah, I think is marvelous. 659 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:18,880 Thank you. 660 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:19,880 Yeah. 661 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:20,880 Awesome. 662 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:21,880 That's so nice to talk to you. 663 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:22,880 Thank you so much. 664 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:23,880 Yeah. 665 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:24,880 Wonderful. 666 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:25,880 Thank you. 667 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:26,880 Yeah. 668 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:40,080 Hi, my name is inadequately speaking.