Welcome to the show, PGS.
Great to have you on board.
And I hope we have a lovely conversation.
So why don't we start at the beginning?
Why don't we go back to 1986 when you graduated from IIT, BHU,
and life stretched before you.
And you were thinking of what needs to be done next.
Why don't we go back into those memories and see where things go from here?
Okay, good.
It's actually always a great pleasure to act to anything before 1986.
For four years of being in hospital with all this self-pressure.
Right. And 1986 is when the campus interview started.
And a very interesting experience of campus interview.
And I must share it that I was not the top rankers in the...
I was just an actor.
And I had two opportunities when I started my campus jobs.
Once with Tata Ceramics, which was in...
Somewhere in Orissa, I forgot the name of the place.
The other one was with ITC Badrachalam Pepper Boards.
That time it was known as that.
Now, of course, it's known as ITC Limited Paper Division.
Very interestingly, I chose ITC or Tata Ceramic that time.
Though the fact that Tata was a very strong name in the campus.
And Tata Ceramic was paying me more also.
It's very funny.
I mean, the salary paid offered by Tata Ceramic to me was at least 15% more.
And those days, the starting salary was 1400 at ITC for me.
And 15% more over 1400 would have met quite a lot for me.
It was a big money then.
One of the reasons why I chose and that's where my thinking process started in terms of which one to choose and where to move.
The guys who came to interview me.
So when I discuss with people on campus interviewing, I like to narrate this to them always.
The guys who came to interview from Tata Ceramic were normal bureaucrat look, mechanical look, medical transaction.
No emotions attached to interview.
It was very normal process.
The guys who came from the ITC to do the interview.
Exactly.
So it was very mechanical.
Okay.
And the guys who came from ITC.
It's amazing how these interactions give you your first impression of how the company is atmosphere.
And what the environment in which you work is likely.
So it's exactly.
You have a sixth sense about what is the kind of person who's interviewing me.
And what are the questions they ask.
So if they go through the motions, then you get the feeling that yeah, that is exactly how life will be at this place.
Sorry, I just cut it.
Exactly.
Oh no, no, it's wonderful.
And beautifully.
Yeah.
One was special and another person was HR head.
I still remember their name and look the Tata Ceramic.
I don't even remember who came.
I remember the gentleman's name was Ph Rao.
Wow.
And yeah, yeah, yeah.
Amazing questions, amazing and for giving me the offer letter, they called us for dinner in the hotel where they were staying.
Wow.
Okay.
Now, as a student, you get excited when someone senior calls you for a dinner, you know, nothing like that.
So, we had dinner, we had a long history.
Yeah.
Exactly.
And it was fun on the dinner table.
They did not discuss a single book.
They were just having fun.
Okay.
This is where I can work.
Okay.
So, and I think that drove to a large extent a decision that I made for joining ITC Badrachala Bekhar Boards.
Like most of the students who wanted job for me, this was a great job.
Of course, there were students who also wanted to do higher studies.
They went for that.
I, while I always love to do research, but that's not something that I could have afforded that time.
I had to start my earning.
So, that's how I got into it.
Okay.
So, then the choice was limited to which company should I join?
Because I have to get a job.
Exactly.
I don't have much of a choice in terms of whether I can work or delay that process.
So, let me at least make the best of what I have right now.
And at least that first step is something where I'm reasonably sure that I will learn from this company.
Even if I don't earn the same amount of money.
Correct.
Okay.
Correct.
Okay.
Correct.
I think I learned a lot.
Okay.
I just want to stick with the interview part for a little while longer because I think that's one of the things that people tend to gloss over as to, I think we've discussed it where you said when senior people from the company actually come for the interview and spend that time, it actually makes a big difference to the candidates.
The candidate who's being interviewed.
It's not just about true.
The questions asked. It's also about how much of importance is accorded to that. And like you said, they even converted the process of handing over the letter into one of those dinner occasions.
It could have been handed officially and then said, okay, come and join.
But they spent that time.
So these are the little things I think which make a world of difference.
Yeah.
So in fact, I tell this to my colleagues on just one small thing on that particular point I tell this often to the people who are into recruitment, or people who are doing interviews.
I tell them, the guys, you are not hiring you are selling your company to a candidate.
Yes.
Even the hiring managers need to work as a manager.
Right.
That's true.
But in these days, sometimes I wonder ever since the IT boom started, where companies recruit 20, 30,000 people a year.
Some of these things have just become, I mean, I doubt if there is more than five or seven minutes spent on each candidate, or even less, depending on how, you know, things evolve.
When you break it down and then say a company has to take in so many people in a given calendar year that directly reduces the amount of time, the resources that are available, and everything else that follows.
Sometimes I think.
Commodization of hiring process.
So, so how do you think that while we've been able to do it tremendously well, I think Indian IT companies did a great job of being able to hire huge numbers of people in the early days and that scaling was an important reason for their success.
But since you've worked with tech solutions and you've worked with IT companies, what do you think, what did they do to ensure that they got those numbers in?
How did they have to change internally?
One, I think.
It becomes very important. It's very important. And that's why if you look at most of the initial hiring processes, there was a concept of shadowing. One person is attached with one senior person to work with always.
Okay.
So that's a process was adopted by many people and I think that worked well. And the industries were into help us. That was possible for them to do it.
Okay. Okay. Wonderful. So then why don't you tell us what happened once you joined ITC Bhadrachalam. What happened from there?
So me and my classmate landed up at ITC Bhadrachalam Paperboards. We found there were another 25, 30 people that they hired.
Okay. I think the life suddenly became that you are going in shifts. Our entire process was on shift. Morning six o'clock, you need to come in.
It was initially difficult because in college I can afford to bunk classes. You know, first two classes I will not attend.
I can't do that in job and that too where I have supposed to punch the card. You know, so if you have to punch the card, you need to be there.
Right.
You can't even fake that. Yeah. And again, the freewheeling is not possible. If you are inside the factory and that's a factory environment.
I cannot afford to roam around because I don't know what kind of risk I will be putting myself in if I have to roam around. I need to walk very carefully. I need to come very carefully.
So I think in terms of the mind. Okay.
But at the same time for me, while I know that the rest of the 20, 30 people who joined, they will come to the office, punch card, come out and then possibly talk about what happened in captain.
I started using the time even for job because that's okay. I need to learn a lot.
I must thank three people of my first job who enabled me to do that. One was my own mentor in the first job. His name was Mr. P. Paradesi.
An amazing boiler man. I know he was just an ordinary BSc physics guy. But such a huge boiler that even the boiler manufacturer will consult with him.
So he made me think that he used to call me Subbu. He said, Subbu, don't get stuck with what you are doing. Learn something different, learning more.
He will say in Hindi to me, you will get stuck. So you start learning more.
There are two other people who want to call me Shawnee and the. What were you doing on that? The first few months on the job. What was your, what is it that you were required to do?
Shift ES, but once you got it, manage. Okay. Yeah. So prepare the report, note down the readings, take the work of the plant, find out if something is working, something not working.
Coordinate with maintenance guys to come and repair. Okay. You know, entire shift operation of plant running. Okay. Okay. So that was my shift.
It was eight hours back. 24 by seven plant. So I hope into job for two days, six to two, two days, two to 10 and two days night shift of 10 to six.
Okay. So you literally got into the grind straight away. You understood what it meant to do a job regularly and follow that, follow a process, a procedure.
Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. So, yes, yes. And you have to do a lot of testings in the lab there.
You know, testing. Right. Right. Right. So as you get to know it better, is there as you get to know the job better, you also know if things are going all right, most of the time, you also know if you're not, you know, there isn't so much of work to do.
It gets into a kind of routine, right.
Fortunately, the factory life, very particularly in the day shifts, rarely it will get in because you will have a lot to do.
You will kind of be packed. And that too, I need to interact with senior operators to learn the nuances of the work.
And just they used to explain to us what's happening, what's not happening. And I had to learn them. In fact, free time would be more in the night shift, because night shift, there's not too much of new activity that we start.
Night shift is just status quo maintenance. I mean, there could be some nights when you have a crisis and then you get into big deal. Otherwise, it was very relaxed.
Generally the night shift.
Okay. Okay.
So at what point did you think that, you know, apart from Mr. Parthasthi telling you, when did you think that you needed to move on? What was the trigger? Or how did you actually think of, okay, I've learned a certain amount of the same here.
What happens next?
So before getting into that, share a few things which actually helped me even thinking of moving out. Otherwise, I might not have thought of moving out.
Okay. So, okay.
And I have seen this in many instances, including my own colleagues who have worked and joined along with the same time. They get so narrow as ability to move.
Okay.
I will need to have moments horizontal.
Are you used to work at least one and a half shift. We also had large number of books available to read in the night shift.
Okay.
So being a paper manufacturer, we used to get important books for processing. So I will go to the paper yard and pick up best of the books for my reading.
And I will read them in the night shift. And I think that's where my reading habits started. And I think I continue even now.
I mean, I think I mentioned this to you that I clock almost 50 books a year.
I think that learning was very important that diversified my thinking process. And thanks to two other people, Sunil Shawnee and Samba Murti, they included me in some of the budgeting exercise of.
Okay.
Now, in the first two years, you getting an exposure to the budgeting exercise gives you a lot of understanding.
I was fortunate that way. And I also made use of the opportunity available.
And it was towards the end of my fourth year.
When I started looking at my career progression, started thinking, what should I be doing? What would I do? How would I start looking at it?
Somewhere I had the zeal of diversifying my learning knowledge, you know, from one field to another field. So diversifying and possibly that was also based on the thinking that I always had the desire for while doing something.
And I knew I didn't know what to do because I'm not I don't come a background where I can invest money. And in those days, you didn't have so many VCs who will give you several rounds of money for funding.
Okay.
Yeah.
So that's where I started thinking of going out and looking for a new job.
But by then, I think I consolidated my position in such a way in the company that whether it is worker or the top man of the factory, everyone would run after me.
They want me.
Right. For anything that comes, let's check with him.
So I became a point of what is called.
I just like to, I just like to dig into that a little deeper.
What exactly do you think made them do that way? Were you available to them? Did you solve their problem? Does you listen to them? Were you the kind of person who offered solutions? What happened there?
I think it's a combination of things.
I won't put it as a formula. I won't put it as a formula. So for example, there isn't a formula.
So for example, for most seniors, for most seniors, it was my knowledge and my ability to structure the thoughts and the case became very important.
And that's how they started loving me because they knew that this guy, sir.
Okay. Two, I also never hesitated in doing things that are risky.
And I think that opened up a lot for people. I even I became a point of attack.
One example, which many even experienced colleagues started saying that you don't know what kind of risk you have taken. You could have just left it.
I said, I can't leave it when it is happening in front of my eyes.
So there was a, we used to handle chlorine 100 tons a day, chlorine gas.
And it's a very hazardous substance. Even at 3 ppm, you will start coughing like anything.
There was a cylinder at our gate, which we are still not owner. It has not come inside gate.
It was truck was lying in the gate and the cylinder started leaking.
No one knew what to do. I took a decision. I was on the shift. It was a Sunday.
I took a decision that take the cylinder inside because outside inside the first to manage it.
And the cylinder inside managed it and curtail the leakage.
And that was in fact some of the seniors fired me.
But this engagement had a lot of praise for me.
Okay. So I think that brought my myself into good books with a lot of senior people in the system.
Among the employees, I think my relationship building skills were very helpful.
I became so close to them that I could even know their family members.
I could know what their children are doing and so on so forth.
Fortunately, my multiple language also very handy.
I could speak to them in Hindi.
So a lot of people became very close to me from that perspective.
And that led to a huge amount of because workers will then do anything for me.
In fact, I am proud of my relationship skills in the first job, which I continue to add it later on.
I tell this to even today to very proudly.
I remember that was one worker who was a part of the union member.
That was the only case on employee that I did.
I never put any complaint on any employee to the HR in my career.
But that was the only employee on whom I put the complaint and that employee lost the job.
And imagine that guy was a union member.
In those days, now unions are much weaker, but in those days, unions used to be very strong.
You can't just get rid of a union member from the company.
But I had tremendous support from the workers to help me in that.
And that is only because of the relationship that you build both inside the factory as well as outside the factory.
So I used to join their family functions, social activities that used to happen.
So I became wanted boy for everything in the colony also.
That's how I think it helped.
Like you said, very often the job is one aspect of your life.
The number of relationships that you cultivate.
And this is not as if you were making, I think part of it is due to your nature.
You are outgoing, you take risks.
Some of these things, like you said, if people are not willing to take those risks, then there are other things that they have to discover.
So all risks are not physical or financial.
Some of them are, they could be on various, but trying to figure out what.
And I think what worked in your favor is that you are willing to learn, which a lot of, you know, one of the things early on is that if you don't spend time understanding the job, understanding the nuances of what is required.
It just becomes that much more difficult.
And like you said, it may not have been the most comfortable of environments, a factory environment is not comfortable in that sense of the word.
And the timing is also.
I can just give you one hint on the comfort level of the factory.
The temperature in the place will be 50 degrees centigrade in the months of April, May, June.
Wow.
50 degrees centigrade.
Okay.
You had to do it for eight hours on the truck.
I mean, during the shift, it would be that entire.
Wow. Okay.
Okay.
But do you ever get used to it?
Yes.
I mean, it's something.
You don't have an option.
Okay.
You get used to it.
See, you will not get used to it if you crib about it.
Yeah.
If you understand that this is the environment in which one has to work and learn there, you will get used to it and you will find out ways and means of managing it.
Right.
It happens only when you decide on what environment you want to work and you don't make best use of the environment that you have.
Yeah.
And I believe in the later.
I think the later.
I need to make best use of the environment that I have before I environment.
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, today I can afford to create my environment.
I can decide where I want to work.
I can decide what I want to work.
But in the years, I think it is exploiting what is available to you is more important than thinking about what should be made available to me.
Right.
And that gives you an experience of what really happens on the shop floor, on the factory shop floor.
So it's not as if these problems are pushed into some background or you're reading them from a book.
You've actually experienced all of them.
No.
Yeah, they're all real life problems.
They're all real life problems.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And for the solutions that you think of will be something that can be fitted into that environment.
It's not a, you know, it's not a point of view.
Why don't we do it?
Correct.
Yeah.
So because they're all different states.
Most of my solutions will not be perfect also.
Correct.
Most of my solutions will be perfect also.
Like you said, no one worries about it as long as problem is solved in the floor, it moves.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
So you were saying a combination of things happened for you to move on from you spend two years at ITC,
Badrachalam or more?
Four years.
Okay.
And then what happened?
How did it actually reach lead to the next job that you were looking at?
Badrachalam was 50 kilometer.
Okay.
I think there's some lag in the, are you able to hear me or?
Between I lost you, but.
You've come back.
Okay.
Yeah.
I think there was some dip in the, the thing.
So, yeah.
So you told me earlier that, you know, there were conditions that finally got you to thinking about making the move.
So what were they, what happened?
So a couple of things.
One, I think in my third year of job there, I got married.
And my wife is also that time pursuing CA.
She subsequently became chartered accountant.
Plus for me also to start exploring my learning and deploying them for a better use.
Okay.
Enough experience of paper industry.
Because I didn't want it to get labeled as a paper mat.
I said, I need to move on to get different experience.
And that's where I started looking for it.
And fortunately, I think one or two interviews I got the next letter.
Okay.
Was another great company in those days.
Yeah.
Just into flavors.
And actually the trigger for internal for me.
Yeah, it's more you me.
I actually had no problem in the job.
In fact, people, I mean, they're surprised that I am quitting the job there.
And I was one person.
I mean, some, I still enjoy that thinking process itself.
Workmen, they gave me four farewells.
Four different farewell party to me by the.
Because they are all in shift.
They can't all of them.
Okay.
Yeah.
So imagine just workmen alone gave me four farewells.
Wow.
That's amazing.
So I was, I was someone who was liked by everyone.
So it was literally emotional departure from the first job.
There is no doubt about it.
Even for me, it was emotional because I was so deep rooted in war.
In society itself.
That it was really emotional.
It was necessary for me to move on for widening my own learning.
And in fact, I didn't move on with the great, you know, like today people talk about moving
with the percent and then double promotion, triple promotion and all this.
Nothing like that.
I moved horizontally.
Okay.
But it was a great moment for me because I learned a lot.
So what happened at the, the second company that you worked with?
Second company was again very interesting and very extremely learning opportunity for
me.
That is the company we're supposed to date our number, you know, number crunching skills,
you know, all those things I got used to.
I handling the, I was more like a technical assistant to that.
And in those days, general manager was almost number two in the organization.
He's big boss.
I mean, he's the boss kind of thing.
That was the first company where I had real exposure of working on computers also.
Till that time in my life, I never touched a computer.
So that is the one I started learning.
And, okay.
And I think the learning was very multitude there because I had exposure to reporting,
MIS, R and D, okay, and managing the works.
So I think it was a very wide ranging exposure and very technical exposure also, including
managing the effluents and pollutions because very polluting business it was.
So I had exposure onto that.
I could be there with them for about two and a half years.
Okay.
And then I found that this company was not doing good.
The company was not doing good and that was a problem for me because when company doesn't
do good investments becomes a problem.
Okay.
And you know, you are in a, you know, in a ship that is sinking.
And one of the reason why it was sinking was management itself.
The investors were not very keen on pursuing.
Very unfortunate for that company because Highland was a synonym to products that time.
You know, like you call any Varanasi, Ghee as Dalda, any varnish was called Highland.
That's how it was.
Okay.
So it was, I moved on from there.
I moved again on a horizontal movement to working with spices and spices company.
And I think it was a wonderful shift for me, not only from the place perspective, but also
from the job perspective, wonderful shift it was.
Okay.
So what is happening at the spices company after this?
So in fact, spices company, I am actually, I would say I'm indebted to the company as
promoter of the company, which was Sanjay Mariwala at that time.
I mean, they're all part of the Mariwala family.
The famous Mariko group.
Sanjay Mariwala was the MD is still my friend.
Yeah.
No, this is different from parachute.
They are cousins.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
Right.
But they were into that company was into oils and this was into spices.
Okay.
Yeah, they are different.
Okay.
Right.
And even then he is in spice.
Okay.
New thing in a book and he will hand over the book to me.
He will say, PGS, you need to implement this.
So that's how I started learning a lot.
And okay.
Believe me or not, I never hesitated in taking up a job where I had no knowledge.
Okay.
So he assigned me a job of computerizing the entire manufacturing system data.
Okay.
And I had no.
Okay.
That's what happened.
Okay.
Yeah.
All six sigma.
Exactly.
And I had no.
That was after that.
Okay.
Lean six was after this job.
Yeah.
Okay.
That was much later, but here it was absolutely no knowledge about computers or software code
etc.
I, I learned all of them from the vendors.
Okay.
But you learn the idea is you learn and I went on to build an ERP in early 90s.
Okay.
And in a technology which is not known to people nowadays called Fox pro that ERP was running
for at least that year survived at least six to seven years.
Okay.
In house home building.
And then I started thinking of how was I practicing anything other than marketing by then.
I said now it's time for me to do something on my own.
And that's when I started thinking where to go and what to go.
And I also had the, the fortune of interacting the environment consultant in early 90s who
was X Sanmar person.
Okay.
A very fatherly figure.
And I started my own consulting.
And it is after that I got exposed to six sigma and all other things.
So I think that was and my exposure to even quality management system was in last company
where I work, which was the can called flavors where we had consultants coming from UK to
work on it because in early 90s, you didn't have so many people in India who had expertise
in those systems.
So we had people coming from UK and so that gave me an exposure to interact with Westerners,
Western culture, you know, the customers outside India.
I think a great experience.
No doubt.
So what comes through is that, you know, it's that you don't starting from the first job
that you had.
Very often it means that you can either fit into a role or you can keep expanding the boundaries
of your own role.
And the companies that you work in have no problem with you expanding the boundaries
and doing more.
In most cases, the problem is when people then decide that this is what I'm good at
and this is all I'll do.
Then there, you know, their entire worldview shrinks.
Whereas like you said, if it's whether it's exactly managing chlorine, chlorine canister
or a cylinder that was leaking or having to put in place a computerized system to manage
the process.
You start off in most cases without really understanding what are the contours of what
you need to do and then you understand it as you go along.
So you are going through a phase where you don't understand exactly.
And I think at times people have this thing that I understand well that I'm going to
learn.
Yeah.
Or they say I'm good at this, I'm not good at this.
So they make these categorizations and they build it within themselves to say that or
it is within comfort zones.
I like doing this.
I don't like doing this.
In which case, so it's okay to categorize.
But when it is okay to categorize, what is not okay is to start creating a box around
it.
Okay.
So it's good to know that what I don't know, but I should not become a box around it.
And then I should learn that part of it.
And on the spices business, I must add on to you saying that when I joined the company,
company was facing a high court case on pollution.
And in one and a half years, I made the company win state award on environment.
Wow.
Okay.
Yeah.
And so that is how you can do it.
Yeah.
No, I think right from the time we started interacting, which is your threads of excellence
and you know, that is a wonderful program that you organize to ensure that excellence
was a lot of process.
Yeah.
Not just an event.
Yeah.
That's true.
And the fact that you move towards that is something that.
So that's the thing.
At that time, were you as or has physical spirituality always been a part of your mix right from
your early days?
Or is it something that you have grown to, you know, do more of as you grow, got older.
For example, you do a whole lot of pooja at home.
You go to, you know, huh?
Temples.
In fact, I have a temple at home itself.
Yes.
I think it was there in some form or other right from the beginning for me.
Some form or other, it was there right from the beginning.
So the only thing is that it used to be little, what is called in a different type, different
way, the intent of those changed with time.
But it was there from the beginning.
I think my cultivated an interest towards that.
Yes.
In the last four or five years, the interest has increased and possibly it's also linked
to my age and career stage where I am.
But otherwise the interest was there right from the beginning.
Right from the beginning.
Even by school days itself, I used to be involved in various poojas and things like that.
Okay.
So when you see the spiritual and the business, you've managed to go along parallel tracks
and keep them without one really, you know, getting in the way of the other.
Because ultimately it's a question of most people look at success or whatever it is based
on material, you know, gains that they make.
But in your case, it's as much of a spiritual gain as it is about knowledge of the environment
in which you work in.
Plus you're fully cloned into the way technology adaptations have, you know, have made life
very different for companies today.
So you start with an environment where you say it is plus 50 degrees Celsius, you then
move into a place where you have to then change the entire, you know, computerization of the
entire thing.
Then you work in spices and then you get into quality control and then you figure out, okay,
how do I implement Six Sigma practices?
All the while you're taking, there are certain base things which have always been there,
your ability to get along with people, your ability to sort of understand the environment
in which you function and how to enrich the aptitude and the attitude of people working
with you.
But how do you balance this out?
What do you think?
Because work-life balance has made a big thing off today.
But I don't think you've had much of a problem achieving it.
Yeah.
So the problem is again goes into that boxing.
Most people rework and life has two different things.
That's why they have challenged to balance.
I don't consider work and life are two different things.
Okay.
Part is part of my life.
So when something is part of you, you don't need to balance it.
But having said that, one of the reasons why it's difficult to do is also because there
are two, three things which happens.
One, your ability to give up is important.
At some point in time, you should be able to give up.
I don't do this.
That is somebody else who can do it.
I need to give up.
And when I say give up, I really mean give up.
Okay.
And this is not easy for many people because for give up, people are taking risk.
And you give up, you take risk and you need to build that appetite at risk.
Otherwise you won't be able to continue to do that.
Second, I think if you are very clear in terms of how you will manage if something goes wrong
and you have that confidence, I think you won't worry about it.
Today, the challenge which you mentioned it in some time back also is that we are so narrowed
in our thinking process, so narrowed in our domain area and things like that.
I don't even want to understand what is next.
So alternate is missing.
What would I do next?
You ask most managers what you want to do next.
People have no clue about it because you are stuck and your next is not beyond the titles
that you can think of.
Whereas the next has to come based on the knowledge that you want to take.
So I think that's very important for me after.
Yeah.
So even today for me as I get into the stage where I am now operating these companies and
working here, I have picked up to learn the executive coaching.
Okay.
Because to do guide people, I need to have a better way of guiding them.
So I got into executive coaching, I'm still going through the process.
Okay.
So and that I think is expansion which is important for people and expansion has to
be based on the knowledge, not just based on the money and the titles and things like
that.
Right.
I'm not saying title and money are not important.
They are extremely important, but not at the cost of the knowledge.
Right.
That balance is another set of things which and I think that's the whole point.
I think that's a very important point that if the objective is the next title, you're
actually constraining yourself because then you're only looking at saying, how can I get
that attached to my name or my designation or whatever it is.
And it's almost been talking for almost 15 minutes.
So one of the things that I'd like to end, wrap this up on is the transition.
That is you start in a job with the skills that you have, you build on those skills.
A lot of those skills you do, you learn and you master them over time.
And then you move hopefully into a position where you're commanding a team out of which
you have got to get work done.
So you shift from being doing the work yourself to providing the guidance and the mentorship
necessary.
So for you, what has this process been?
So I will.
So I think if I look at my drivers from an employment to running my own business consulting
and then again, employment, I don't know what I will do after a year or two.
But the point is, I don't see this, actually, I don't even see this as transition.
A lot of people see this as a transition.
I don't even see this as a transition because what am I doing?
What am I doing in every job?
What am I doing?
Imagine the environment in which I have been put in and the environment include the people
there, environment include the business there.
And end of the day, I am still very fond of the famous book by Goldrat Nyalu Gold.
What is the objective of any business?
To make money, to make more money.
And as long as that clarity is there, it doesn't matter whether you're selling an IT
software, the people are different, the skillset are different, you still need to manage them.
And a relationship with people is what is more important, whether he's shift operator
or a software coder.
So I think I never experienced the challenges of transition.
I did experience challenges of learning curve because some environment it takes longer to
learn, takes faster to learn.
So there could be challenge of speed of learning curve, but not a challenge of what is called
transitioning into one role to the role.
And all of us to the, isn't it?
From core transition to the environment, then you transition from under the parents to your
wife or spouses, then you decision as mother or father, then you transition and father.
I mean, all these are transitions in life.
Yes.
So why should they be any different in the job?
Because you're doing it instinctively.
Yes, you make mistakes, but you learn and then you pick up.
You learn how to do things.
And it's not as if you stopped making mistakes.
The problem is when you start learning from them.
So I will tell you a more important thing there.
More important thing is when you just to correct one thing there, more important thing, your
willingness to do mistake is more important.
Yes.
The problem with me is that I'm afraid of making mistakes.
All I'm saying is that don't be afraid of making mistakes.
Yes.
You learn.
No, that is so true because unless you make a mistake, you're not going to find another
way forward.
Yes, that particular thing may be a mistake, but it really doesn't.
But in today's world, it's almost as if, you know, its success is seen as the only, what
you say, yardstick.
Whereas the success is intermittent.
Failure is the default state.
It's the way that happens.
Yes, you will keep making.
You know, there isn't a single way.
So I have no process as a yardstick.
Yeah.
Okay.
But we do have a problem with the success as a yardstick.
Okay.
I find my success based on what Venu believes is success.
Right.
I need to find my success for myself.
It is not dependent on others.
Very true.
Today, unfortunately, we find our successes based on others.
Yes.
But for most people that becomes a point, right?
It is comparison.
It is about success is always measured in material terms.
It is measured in designation terms.
It is, you know, so it becomes, for some people, it becomes impossible.
So that's what I wonder how do you reconcile the spiritual and the material?
Because you're involved in, you are, you lose yourself in that world when you are on a spiritual
journey.
Like you said, even recently, you've gone to Shabri Mullah so many times that you don't
remember the number of years that you've done it.
One is that you are able to do it because you launch into it.
So it's almost as a physically and mentally, you're still looking at testing the borders
or the limits of what you do.
Is that one of the things which, you know, that you continue to expand on that?
I think there are two things which is important Venu in this.
Where people, and I have seen you because many times people don't, they try to copy
others.
Don't, I need to know what I, I need to know what I like.
Okay.
And I don't, then I need to start thinking what is my success.
I should stop comparing my colleagues.
I should stop comparing my peers.
I should stop comparing my, you know, families, friends.
When each one is of them, I mean, I can keep cribbing about that Ambani is making this
so much of money in the world, but I am not Ambani.
I am Subramanian and Ambani is not Subramanian.
So I think we need to understand myself and then try to structure my success accordingly.
Then I would be happy and successful both.
Okay.
So I think somewhere there, there is that whole, you have understood for yourself what
that, which is where I wonder, you know this.
So if you look at a career, you know, the entire definition of how a career pans out,
then would you break it up into stages or would you say that the best way to do it is
to understand the environment and then respond and learn in order to move to the next stage.
So first of all, for me, career is not stages.
It's a continuum.
Okay.
It's a continuum.
So it's not that stepping stones.
It's not a stepping ladder.
It's a smooth curve that grows.
Right.
Okay.
The second thing important from career perspective is I need to understand what would make me
happy, what would make me satisfied and what to do towards that.
It's not just the environment.
It is just not me.
It is also what is the interaction between me and the environment.
Okay.
Okay, I can have, I can be in great environment, but if I'm not interacting with environment,
my life will be hell.
Right.
And I can be in 50 centigrade, but I have to, I think it's just the environment, but
it is also me and the interaction between me and the environment.
Okay.
Wonderful.
Stop complaining about it.
Stop complaining about environment.
Great.
On that note, then, Pijas, thank you for your time.
I, you know, these are things that we've not covered.
We normally tend to stick to the books we've read, the things that we, so this is a wonderful
means of knowing how you got to where you are today, because I think there are a lot
of these, and like you said, success, everything stages a career as a continuum.
And by defining and pushing the levels of your interest and finding out what that is,
is ultimately what the, so whether it's the first job or the job that you're in right
now, there are certain things that have not changed at all.
And there are certain things which you continue to discover.
Okay.
Correct.
So thank you very much for making it to the, for this opportunity also.
My pleasure, Pijas, and.