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Welcome to Conversations with Catalyst. Today I have with me Anita McKenna. Welcome, Anita.

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Thank you very much, Jeremy. I'm really excited to speak with you today.

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Fantastic. Can you please fill us in? Who is Anita McKenna and how did you end up in the world of coaching?

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Yeah, so I kind of came into coaching a few years ago when my life was kind of going through a real

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transition. So 15 years ago, a bit of a long story, go back a bit, I became a counsellor and back then

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as well my life was going through quite a big transition. There had been quite a lot of trauma

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went on. It was back in 2008 when we had the big massive financial crisis happened and I was made

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redundant. I'd just had my gorgeous baby daughter. I was left on my own with her. My life kind of got

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turned upside down and it was a really awful place for me to be. So I actually went and got counselling

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for myself and as a part of that process, I was encouraged to go and do some counselling training

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which was really going to be helpful for me to kind of learn more about myself, learn

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more about my emotions because I didn't really do emotions before that. And then I sort of trained

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and qualified as an intricate of counsellor which just means I use different types of counselling

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in my work. And that was really amazing, the kind of the work that I do with my clients is fabulous.

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I love the counselling book that I do. But then like I say, it was actually about five years ago now.

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My daughter who is very nearly 16 now, she was going into high school and in the UK high school

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is kind of from age 11. I know in the US it's slightly different ages. So she was going off into

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high school and up to that point I'd been very involved in her schooling. But suddenly she was

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going off and kind of taking the next step in her life and I felt like I was being a bit left behind.

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And so I chose to, I was kind of looking outside counselling, you know, what else can I do? What

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can I do to feel a bit more fulfilled in myself because I was feeling a bit sort of lost without

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purpose. And I kind of came across coaching and to a degree I'd been using coaching already in my

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counselling work because the two are kind of so closely linked that there's obviously, you know,

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definitely nuances either side, but the two are very closely linked. And so I went and got my coaching

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certificate and moved into informational life coaching. So it's very much about kind of helping

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people to transform their life into the version of the life that they want to have rather than

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kind of feeling stuck just getting through the life that they've had up till this point sort of thing,

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you know. So yeah, so I mean, quite a long story really from 15 years ago to here, but it that's

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kind of what's got me to this place. So I am a transformational life coach and an integrative

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counsellor. And I use the skills of both of those in the work that I do both in counselling and

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coaching, counselling and coaching to kind of give my clients quite a unique blend of, you know, the

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different skills that I can bring into it, which I think enables clients to feel possibly a little

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bit safer in the sense that on an emotional level that they know that I'm there to support them,

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regardless of what's going on for them, I'm there to kind of take care of them. Yeah.

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Yes. So tell me a little bit about how what you do has changed after you said you already were

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doing a bit of coaching with your counselling. And how so yeah, how is it different now that you

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have done the coaching certification and you brought that in as well?

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So I think because previously I was I was practicing as a counsellor, so the focus has always been

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and the way I kind of differentiate the two, certainly from a client perspective, is

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counselling tends to be about clients looking to move away from something that's happened,

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generally trauma, you know, and trauma happens on all different levels, but clients tend to come

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to counselling because they want to move away from trauma, whereas coaching is much more about

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they want to get to a place they want to go somewhere. So obviously as we go through a counselling

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process, they heal from the trauma, which means that they're actually ready to start looking at

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what their next steps are. They're looking at moving towards something, not all clients,

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it doesn't always work that way. Whereas with my coaching, when I work exclusively as a coach,

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then I'm very much focused on what's happening here today, where are we today, and where do

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you want to get to always looking at the goal, always looking at the outcome, what you want to

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achieve from coaching. So it's much more forward thinking. So although I will to a degree look

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backwards at what got you to here, we're not going to do any real work in that space, we're going to

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be very much looking at what got you here, but more importantly, how are we going to move forward

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and where do you want to go to move forward? Yeah, that's definitely because I have a psychology

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degree and I've had psychological counselling as well as my own coaches, and that's really a good

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explanation from you of what I've seen the difference being, the difference that I've seen is,

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you know, psychological counselling is more around getting you from, you know, negative 10

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up to zero to neutral, and then coaching is about getting you from zero to your, I guess in the

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Maslow's hierarchy of need, you're getting to your full potential with the coaching. And I think

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that's what's often missing is psychologists will be like, okay, you're all better now, don't need to

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see you anymore. Yes. Yeah, but where do I go from here? Yeah, definitely. And I guess it is kind

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of almost that rehabilitation part, isn't it? You know, so you get well, but then it's kind of, now

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what do we do now? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I guess in the last couple of decades,

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psychological research has been going into, that's termed positive psychology,

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not just getting out of mental illness, but getting into you can be, because it hasn't really,

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it's fine that it's mostly coaches that are on the forefront of actually doing the work there so far.

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Yeah, good. Yeah, and it's, I think the US is much further ahead than we are.

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And my accent is American, but I've lived in Australia for the last 18 years just to let you

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know. But yeah, I did. I was in America for my first 25 years. Right, so I'm not sure where Australia's

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up to with coaching and kind of taking those steps forwards. I think here in the UK, it's taken us

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quite a long time to accept counseling even, you know, about therapy side of things. So we are a

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little further behind on coaching, life coaching and kind of being quite deliberate about how we

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move forwards. So yeah, I think the US is definitely further ahead than we are in it being a thing even,

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you know, here in the UK, when we talk about coaches, we think about, you know, a football coach,

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but then somebody who's actually kind of doing life coaching. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Anita, I just had a

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question I've been asking people. There was a question that was asked of me probably 15 years

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ago or something by a co-worker. He said, we were just, we were in customer service and we were just

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between customers. And she just said, if you could bring more of any one thing into the world,

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what would it be? And that really struck me as a good way to think a little bit about your purpose

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in life. So Anita, if you could bring more of any one thing into this world, what would it be?

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I think for me, it's kind of got to be all around self-acceptance and self-worth. I think

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as human beings, we've, I guess it's become more over the past sort of probably 100 years or so,

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particularly as we get into possessions and material things and seeing what other people have,

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that that thing of keeping up with the Joneses, we are so quick to not accept what we have or

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who we are is good enough. I think there can be some societal conditioning in that. I think,

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you know, how we're brought up, how our parents bring us up, feed into that so that we spend so

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much of our lives trying to be better than we are trying to, you know, achieve more. And I know for

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me, certainly this was kind of my earlier life, 100% is I kept believing that if I got that thing,

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that would make me be happier. But actually, it never did. It never, nothing ever filled the

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hole that was inside me because it wasn't accepting of myself as I was. And I think that's one of the

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things that if we can, just as human beings, accept ourselves and kind of have that level of

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self-worth in ourselves, that we are worthy of love and acceptance, exactly as we are, who we are

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today, we are worthy already. If we can have that acceptance, that would make us feel so much more

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content and not looking externally, you know, looking for that external validation is kind of,

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I know for me, definitely looking for that external validation was exactly what drove me. But it

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never fulfilled. And it never does because external thing can always be removed. Whereas if we have

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our own internal validation, we accept ourselves for who we are. And that's not to say that we don't

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ever want to make things be different, or we don't ever want to, you know, improve our lives in any

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way. But if we deny who we are, if we don't accept who we are, then it doesn't matter what we achieve,

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it will never feel good enough. So for me, yes, self acceptance, self worth, being in that space of

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finding ways to accept yourself exactly as you are today, so that then you can move forwards and

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feel good enough in everything that you do. Does that make sense? Does that kind of

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Yeah.

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That's the question, yeah.

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No, it really does. So self acceptance, and then I guess moving, so that's, if you could bring

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more of any one thing into the world, it would be self acceptance. So with that in mind,

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what would you say is the core philosophy behind your coaching, and how does that translate into

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tangible results for your clients?

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So for me, and it very much is that around that kind of, you know, like I said before, that excuse me,

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most people or so many of us are conditioned from childhood to kind of fit in, you know, go to school

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and you've got to wear a uniform, you've got to conform, you've got to do what you're told to do,

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which means that if you don't want to do that, if it doesn't feel right to you, we learn to adapt

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ourselves to to fit in, you know, which means that if it doesn't feel right, that there's

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something disingenuous in that for ourselves, for each other's. So for me, my kind of core

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philosophy is all about, you know, allowing people to be exactly who they are, and kind of finding

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that acceptance of themselves in wherever they are, kind of starting that, where they are today,

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like I say, absolutely looking for, you know, looking at your goals and looking at where you

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want to go. But it's a it's that analogy of, you know, kind of setting the sat-nav, isn't it?

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You know, if we set the sat-nav to go somewhere, but we don't know where we're starting from,

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actually, the sat-nav hasn't got a clue where to go. So by not accepting ourselves in this space

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means that we can't really direct ourselves forwards, because we don't know where we're

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starting from. So it is very much about allowing people to kind of take care of themselves, take

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prioritise their own needs so that they are looking after themselves in a way that allows them to

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feel that they're important enough to kind of take care of themselves. I don't have a succinct

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little phrase that I probably could do with getting around the kind of the philosophy side of it,

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for me, for my coaching. But it always comes back to that thing of helping people to kind of

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love accept and accept themselves exactly as they are today, so that they can then move forwards

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into the version of themselves that they would like to grow into.

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When you were explaining that, I was thinking, if you were using a sat-nav and you were,

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you had this destination in mind, you think of yourself as someone who can't drive,

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but then you're not going to be able to. So you might have a goal of where you want to get to,

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but you aren't the proficient person to drive the car to get there.

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Yeah. Yeah. And again, I think that's exactly, that's very true that so many of us don't feel

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that we are good enough to make those decisions. We struggle to make the decisions or to feel

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confident in the choices that we make. Whereas actually we are exactly, you know, as we are the

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person who is the most best informed. Unfortunately, we can't always tune in to what

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our authentic self is saying. And that can be the difficult part, which I guess is probably the

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work that I do with clients is helping people to properly tap into their authentic self so that

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they can hear their own voice rather than all of that conditioned voice, that those external voices

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that come in, you know, critical parents and society, you know, telling us what we should be doing,

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actually being able to listen to yourself and listen to what you genuinely want for yourself

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can really support you in having the belief that you can make the right choices to support

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yourself to get to the places that you want to go to. So then can you tell me a success story

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about a client who started off in that place, maybe where they didn't quite accept themselves?

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Just tell me, I guess any success story about a client of yours where your coaching methods

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made a big difference in where they started out and where they got to?

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Yeah, absolutely. So there was a lady I was working with, we began working together towards the

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end of last year. And at the point that she came to me, she was feeling really quite sort of lost

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on fulfilled. Truthfully, life felt quite pointless without some kind of intervention

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that there was a prospect there of her heading towards, you know, not wanting to live a life

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anymore. She just felt it was completely pointless. There was no joy at all in her. And we started

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working together and there was just some really basic stuff like she really didn't like the house

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that she lived in, but she'd convinced herself that she had to stay there because she'd only been

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there for two years. Now mortgage deal wasn't up in front of the year and so she didn't have a choice,

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you know, there was no option for her, that she had a very challenging relationship with both her

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parents. Specifically, her mum was more so. Mum had quite a lot of narcissistic tendencies,

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which meant that she'd never really had the validation from her parents growing up. Work

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wasn't great. I mean, she'd had quite a successful job in finance, but she wasn't particularly enjoying

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the work that she was doing. So life all around felt quite sort of empty and shallow, quite brittle.

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Friendships weren't going as she'd have liked them to be doing, but because she'd got herself

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into a place of she wasn't really speaking with anybody, she wasn't communicating much.

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She was so stuck in the beliefs that she can't do anything that she really struggled to kind of

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begin to make any choices because obviously life was where it was. And so she felt she had no ability

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to make good choices for herself going forwards. So as we were working together, we began, I mean,

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even just questioning the belief that she had to stay in her house. And when she looked into it,

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she went and got some information. Actually, it was feasible for her to sell her house and move

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into a different house. The financial implication of that wasn't anything like as bad as she'd

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kind of told herself. Something as simple as Christmas. So she was feeling that she had to

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go and spend Christmas with her parents because she had nothing else planned. And that filled her

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with dread, the thought of spending the whole of Christmas with her parents really filled her

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with dread. So we looked at what she'd done historically and she'd previously gone away for

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Christmas financially. That wasn't an option this year. So we looked at what other options there

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were available to her. And again, it was just opening herself up to having Tracys being able

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to look beyond the one thing that was stuck in front of her that she really didn't want to look

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out that she really didn't want to do. And she was able to go and spend Christmas with a friend

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and had the best Christmas ever. She had an amazing Christmas that was really lovely.

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She felt very fulfilled and very kind of nerd space because she was in a space of love rather than

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the fear was being in this space with her parents that was going to be very critical and

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she would be on edge and it would be a really harsh experience. She actually had a lovely

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experience with her friend that was just filled with love for her. And then even looking at the

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friendship, she'd kind of got herself into the belief that her friends didn't care about her

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anymore because they weren't contacting her as much as she'd have liked. And we kind of just

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unpicked that a little bit and kind of looked at some of the beliefs that were going on for her,

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you know, these limiting beliefs that she had going on and the belief that everybody should

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message her and she didn't need to message anybody outwardly. So when she was able to actually message

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her friends outwardly, actually they came back and she realised that she had been holding herself

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back in all of that, that she was the one that was kind of putting those walls up against people

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because she just wasn't able to look beyond what was immediately in front of her. When she was able

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to reach out to some friends, actually like say, you know, she spent Christmas with one of her friends

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and they were good, solid friendships, they were different, some of them were more in depth than

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others. But when she'd originally come to me, she felt that actually she didn't really have any

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worthwhile friendships. When she was able to look beyond that initial unhelpful thought,

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she was able to see that she shed a lot of friends, but she'd closed herself off from them

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because she wasn't in such a good space in her head, she kind of closed herself off from them. So

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ultimately, she'd gone from that space of feeling that life was pointless, that there was no joy,

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that almost she was just waiting to die. And you know, she wasn't an old woman, she was only in her

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50s. She'd gone from that space to kind of everything, her whole life flipping her full 180.

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You know, she was moving how she'd kind of reconnected with all her friends. She felt

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fulfilled, she felt positive, she felt life was worth living again. And you know, to kind of see

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that transformation is amazing. You know, such a beautiful thing to witness with clients.

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Yeah, sounds like she had real blinders on and had real tunnel vision where she just

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didn't see how anything be different as far as like where she was living or you know,

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what was happening with her friends or whatever. And just through her conversations with you and

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obviously work on her limiting beliefs and everything, she was able to see all these

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other options that she had and choose something that she, choose a life that she liked a lot

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better than the one that she was living. Yeah, definitely. And I think that's the thing is

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those limiting beliefs, we would that they're sneaky little boogers, because we don't see them

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all the time. And you know, that they're hidden from our own view a lot of the time. So actually

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having an external person talking through some of this stuff can be so helpful to begin to help

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you to see some of them. Because like I say, we just don't know that they're there. We don't know

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her beliefs 100% around Christmas was she had to go and spend Christmas with her parents. But

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she was the one that had imposed that nobody else had put that on her, but she couldn't see

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anything different. Yeah. So yeah. What is your strategy for helping clients to overcome

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that self doubt when they don't when they don't believe in themselves? I think it's really beginning

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to kind of reflect on what's got them to that place that they don't believe that they can make

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good choices. So what's got them to that self doubt? What's kind of where's the information

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come from? And just beginning to challenge that even, is that true? Is it a truth or is it? Is

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this again, is it a limiting belief by helping people to see what's currently hidden from them?

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I know there's a gorgeous quote from Oprah Winfrey, and I'm going to butcher it, but it's

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something like, a coach helps you to see the higher version of yourself that you can't see

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yourself. It's something like that. And it is it's seen that helping you to see the things that

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you're not able to see for yourself. And it's for, you know, a massive variety of reasons. It can be

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like social condition. It can be just the life that you live has been very

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conformative. So you just conform and that's what you do. And you know, it might be the work that

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you do means that you have to be really quite conformative. That doesn't mean that as a human

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being, you have to move away from anything that brings you joy or pleasure. And I think so often

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people kind of do that, especially in adulthood, you know, we think it should all be so serious and

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we take ourselves so seriously. So that self doubt then means that if it's something that's fun,

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well, we shouldn't be doing it because we're grown up. So, you know, we're adults and we shouldn't

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be doing those things. It's almost a little bit frivolous. But helping people to see actually,

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the purpose of life isn't to endure it to the end. You know, actually, the purpose of life is to live

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it, to enjoy it, you know, to have those moments of, you know, imagining being a seven year old again,

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and the joy of rolling through a field of dandelions, you know, those kind of things,

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you're really feeling some of that stuff. I think unfortunately, we get so much of that

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knocked out of us when we start having life to deal with, you know, you've got bills, you've

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got mortgage, you've got a job to do, you've got to be up on a Monday morning, that kind of stuff

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that we struggle to connect in with those things. So helping people to reconnect again,

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it comes back to that authentic self, you know, what does bring you joy in your life?

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And so therefore, what can you do to kind of get rid of some of those limiting beliefs that stop you

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saying you're worthy of those things, you know, helping you to challenge those doubts, to actually

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go and do the things that you really enjoy that do fulfill you. So if someone listening has some

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of those limiting beliefs, how would they go about helping themselves get rid of some of those limiting

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beliefs? Well, one of the things I say so much is if a friend was telling you this thing, would you

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agree with them or would you tell them actually, you know, it's okay for them to do that thing.

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And I think that can be such an easy thing that we all have the ability to do that.

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We all have the ability to kind of put this situation onto a friend. Would we tell them,

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no, they can't go and do that thing? Or would we become, why can't you just go and do it,

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you know, go and enjoy it? And that that is the simplest way. It's not always the the follow

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through on that isn't always the straightforward. But even just beginning to challenge that belief.

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Because again, so often we don't believe it's a limiting belief, we believe it's a fact.

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So we can't even begin to challenge it. And that's the hardest part is beginning to challenge it.

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So when we have a situation where we are telling ourselves we can't do something, it's beginning

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like say transferring that over to a friend, if they were in that situation, what would we be

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saying to them, so that we're able to begin to get a challenge in there. But we get the awareness

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that this is us saying it rather than this being a natural factor, and we can't do something.

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I do have a I'm going to have it stuck on my wall in front of me, sticking out that says,

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I can't equals BS, because there is nothing that we can't in reality. You know, whenever you hear

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yourself saying I check in with it, because the likelihood is that's you stopping yourself rather

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than a genuine you can't. Yeah, I like that. That's also how I teach self compassion is,

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there's a Jesus golden rule treat other people the way you want to be treated. But the platinum

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rule is treat other people the way they want to be treated because my golden rule, I guess, or

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whatever, for people to have self compassion is treat yourself the way you would treat your best

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friend. So if your best friend was in this situation that you're in, would you be saying to them,

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you're an idiot, why are you always doing things, why are you always messing things up like that?

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Well, no, you would be speaking kindly and passionately to them. Yeah, we say that kind of

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thing to ourselves all the time. But you'd never say that to a friend. Yeah, treat yourself the

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same way you treat your best friend. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Excellent. All right. Well,

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what's one piece of wisdom Anita that you find yourself consistently giving out to anyone who

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will listen? One of the things that I think has been most empowering for me is acknowledging the

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choice that I have in my life. And then always easy choices, you know, the choices can be, you know,

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get up and go to work or don't and get no money. And then I've got no money to pay my bills. And

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that sounds like a really blasé one. But it's recognising we have choice in pretty much every

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action that we take on a daily basis. Quite often we feel stuck, we feel we've got to do stuff that

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can feel really quite disempowering. We get stuck in that belief that I've got to do that thing.

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But acknowledging we have a choice and being able to be really present in that choice helps us to

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feel more empowered, helps us to feel a bit more in control of what's going on in a world where we

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are in reality very out of control of a lot of stuff that goes on, all's we can control is our

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own internal kind of experience of these things, feeling in control of some stuff that isn't comfortable,

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you know, staying in a relationship because it's easier or choosing to leave a relationship. We

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can make a choice in that because having choice, having the awareness of a choice helps us to,

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even if we're staying in, I've got clients I've worked with, they stay in an abusive relationship

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because that's what they, what feels most manageable for them in that moment. But acknowledging the

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choice that they're doing it out of choice rather than they've got to do it, just helps them to

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feel a bit more in control of a situation that actually feels quite out of control. So whenever

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you're in a place where things are feeling out of control, things are feeling that you've got to do

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something, just begin to acknowledge the choice. The opposite side of the choice might not be something

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that you want to do, but you've got a choice to do that. So being able to acknowledge the choice can

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really help you to feel more empowered, more kind of in control of what's going on in your life.

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So notice that you have a choice. Good. We've got a few messages from listeners here. I'll just play

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them and we'll see if we have a response to any of them. Yeah, sure. This one comes from Kat.

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Good morning guys. I hope you guys are all doing well. When I hear people say I can't, I think it

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comes from a place of fear. They say they can't because they don't see themselves. You have to

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be able to see yourselves in that position or in that spot, whatever it is, but it's fear. It's

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fear that stops people from doing the things that they want to do, but think they can't.

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Yeah, do you have a response to that Anita? Yeah, I would probably agree with that that, you know, it is

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most likely fear-based that I think as Kat said there, that you can't see yourself in that outcome

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or it might even be that if you choose to do the thing, then you'll be going against other people's

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wishes. So and that feels unsafe, which obviously again comes back to fear, but it's not a fear

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to feel, but it's not feeling safe to achieve the outcome can feel really difficult. So, so yeah,

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I'd agree that there is a lot of fear in that. And I think that's something that can be really

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interesting is a huge believer of we act from fear or love or fear or faith. Yeah, that's exactly what

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I was thinking. Fear or love, yeah. And it's kind of having that belief that, and this is very much,

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you know, an inside job, a belief of yourself, you know, so can you have faith of a good outcome?

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And again, I have lots of up all on my office at home, and I have one there that says, you know,

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have faith in the best outcome rather than fear of the worst. And it is living in that space of

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having faith that, you know, things can go well, things can be good for you. Yeah, excellent.

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And then we've got two messages here from Sasha McFlash. We'll see what these are.

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You sound like a BBC documentarian. What's really missing in that specific quote,

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do unto others, for Matthew is what pre emanates it is the idea of sacrifice. It's like you're

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going out of your way to you want to treat this guy like an asshole because he's treating you like

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an asshole, but you're going out of your way for the higher will. And that's what I think the higher

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meaning and the higher goal of the gets underwhelmed and underspoken.

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Interesting. Yeah.

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Yeah, not a lot of thoughts about. No. Excellent. Well, thank you, Anita. I've just

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kind of finished up with two last little questions here. These two are really two. I've stolen these

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from Mike Kaplan in his podcast, Broccoli and Ice Cream. And but he asks these at the end of his

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podcast. And I love them. They're basically just two questions to make sure that we've

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we've covered everything that we need to in this conversation. So if the answer to either of these

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questions is no, perfectly fine. But if you've got something that we've missed here, then please

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chime in with that as well. So the first one is there anything that you didn't get to say as much

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as you wanted to because we went off on a tangent? No, I don't think there is. I think we've covered

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a lot of what I wanted to say. Yeah. Excellent. And is there anything that I didn't even know to

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bring up? Because obviously, you know yourself a lot better than I know you, Anita. Is there anything

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that I didn't even know to bring up that you feel would be a glaring omission when it comes to a

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survey of the life and work of Anita McKenna? Nothing specific for you to bring up. I think

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one of the things that I always kind of refer to is that I am probably my greatest testimony.

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You know, I've done the work that I now do with clients and I've gone through the process. And

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I think that's something that so often is important for clients, specifically the work I do. It's so

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important that the clients understand that I've been through not everything that they've been

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through, of course not, but you know, my own experience is what's kind of driven me to do

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the work that I do that, you know, I definitely have had a very discontented younger life.

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I have done a lot of work on myself. I've invested heavily, you know, sort of financially and

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time wise, energy wise in choosing to live the life that I do live now. And I think that can be

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really important for people to know that I haven't just read a few books, done a certification,

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and say I'm, you know, I'm some master of it or something. I'm not a guru in any way shape or form,

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but I live what I teach, if that makes sense. And I think that can be really helpful for people to

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understand that, you know, I've been through some really challenging times. And it's only because

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of the work that I've done that I'm where I'm at. And I certainly wasn't born this way. I've worked

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at it. So if I can do it, anybody can do it. Good. So is there anything else you wanted to share

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about those challenging times that you've been through? No, I mean, I touched on it earlier that,

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you know, 15 years ago, my life was catastrophically turned upside down. It was a very difficult time,

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like I say, you know, had my daughter, her dad left, I got made redundant, I ended up surrendering my

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home, had to move back to my hometown as a single parent living on benefits in a little flat,

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feeling very sorry for myself. And it's funny because I had all of my material external validation

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taken away from me. But actually, it was the most transformational thing that could have ever happened

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to me. I am so grateful. And I know that sounds really weird, but I was so grateful that happened

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because it allowed me to kind of reset myself. It allowed me to start again. And I believe,

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personally, that the universe course corrected me. That I was going on the wrong path and the

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universe said, right, you're not listening to the subtle hints. So I'm going to do something quite

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dramatic for you. And, you know, I'm so much more fulfilled, I feel so much happier. I feel,

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I love my life, you know, it's not perfect in any way, shape or form. But I love my life now.

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And I love that I get to share that with other people, you know, that I'm very open on social

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media that, you know, I share my highs and my lows, because I think it's really important.

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Again, it is coming back to that authentic voice that we have that, you know, being really authentic

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and sharing, being transparent with life isn't perfect. But I choose to live it in a way that

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feels good for me. Excellent. Thank you very much, Anita. So the point of this podcast is

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for anyone who wants to learn and listen and learn anything that they can on self-development,

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hearing me chat with all different kinds of coaches and other people who are catalysts for

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people to make change. But it's also for people who are ready for a coach that they, when they hear

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that person, they say that I need Anita in my life to help me move forward. So for those listeners

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today who are saying I need Anita to help me move forward, how do they find you? So I'm on all the

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socials, Anita McKenna UK. So you will find me there. Anita McKenna UK. And that's A-N-I-T-A-M-C-K-E-N-A-U-K.

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So no dots, no dashes. Fantastic. Thank you very much for coming on, Anita. And if anyone needs

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to find me, you can find all my links, including links to every episode of this podcast at Jeremy

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West.net. Thank you very much. And we'll talk to you again soon, Anita. Thank you. You take care now.