Welcome to Conversations with Catalyst. Today I have with me Anita McKenna. Welcome, Anita.
Thank you very much, Jeremy. I'm really excited to speak with you today.
Fantastic. Can you please fill us in? Who is Anita McKenna and how did you end up in the world of coaching?
Yeah, so I kind of came into coaching a few years ago when my life was kind of going through a real
transition. So 15 years ago, a bit of a long story, go back a bit, I became a counsellor and back then
as well my life was going through quite a big transition. There had been quite a lot of trauma
went on. It was back in 2008 when we had the big massive financial crisis happened and I was made
redundant. I'd just had my gorgeous baby daughter. I was left on my own with her. My life kind of got
turned upside down and it was a really awful place for me to be. So I actually went and got counselling
for myself and as a part of that process, I was encouraged to go and do some counselling training
which was really going to be helpful for me to kind of learn more about myself, learn
more about my emotions because I didn't really do emotions before that. And then I sort of trained
and qualified as an intricate of counsellor which just means I use different types of counselling
in my work. And that was really amazing, the kind of the work that I do with my clients is fabulous.
I love the counselling book that I do. But then like I say, it was actually about five years ago now.
My daughter who is very nearly 16 now, she was going into high school and in the UK high school
is kind of from age 11. I know in the US it's slightly different ages. So she was going off into
high school and up to that point I'd been very involved in her schooling. But suddenly she was
going off and kind of taking the next step in her life and I felt like I was being a bit left behind.
And so I chose to, I was kind of looking outside counselling, you know, what else can I do? What
can I do to feel a bit more fulfilled in myself because I was feeling a bit sort of lost without
purpose. And I kind of came across coaching and to a degree I'd been using coaching already in my
counselling work because the two are kind of so closely linked that there's obviously, you know,
definitely nuances either side, but the two are very closely linked. And so I went and got my coaching
certificate and moved into informational life coaching. So it's very much about kind of helping
people to transform their life into the version of the life that they want to have rather than
kind of feeling stuck just getting through the life that they've had up till this point sort of thing,
you know. So yeah, so I mean, quite a long story really from 15 years ago to here, but it that's
kind of what's got me to this place. So I am a transformational life coach and an integrative
counsellor. And I use the skills of both of those in the work that I do both in counselling and
coaching, counselling and coaching to kind of give my clients quite a unique blend of, you know, the
different skills that I can bring into it, which I think enables clients to feel possibly a little
bit safer in the sense that on an emotional level that they know that I'm there to support them,
regardless of what's going on for them, I'm there to kind of take care of them. Yeah.
Yes. So tell me a little bit about how what you do has changed after you said you already were
doing a bit of coaching with your counselling. And how so yeah, how is it different now that you
have done the coaching certification and you brought that in as well?
So I think because previously I was I was practicing as a counsellor, so the focus has always been
and the way I kind of differentiate the two, certainly from a client perspective, is
counselling tends to be about clients looking to move away from something that's happened,
generally trauma, you know, and trauma happens on all different levels, but clients tend to come
to counselling because they want to move away from trauma, whereas coaching is much more about
they want to get to a place they want to go somewhere. So obviously as we go through a counselling
process, they heal from the trauma, which means that they're actually ready to start looking at
what their next steps are. They're looking at moving towards something, not all clients,
it doesn't always work that way. Whereas with my coaching, when I work exclusively as a coach,
then I'm very much focused on what's happening here today, where are we today, and where do
you want to get to always looking at the goal, always looking at the outcome, what you want to
achieve from coaching. So it's much more forward thinking. So although I will to a degree look
backwards at what got you to here, we're not going to do any real work in that space, we're going to
be very much looking at what got you here, but more importantly, how are we going to move forward
and where do you want to go to move forward? Yeah, that's definitely because I have a psychology
degree and I've had psychological counselling as well as my own coaches, and that's really a good
explanation from you of what I've seen the difference being, the difference that I've seen is,
you know, psychological counselling is more around getting you from, you know, negative 10
up to zero to neutral, and then coaching is about getting you from zero to your, I guess in the
Maslow's hierarchy of need, you're getting to your full potential with the coaching. And I think
that's what's often missing is psychologists will be like, okay, you're all better now, don't need to
see you anymore. Yes. Yeah, but where do I go from here? Yeah, definitely. And I guess it is kind
of almost that rehabilitation part, isn't it? You know, so you get well, but then it's kind of, now
what do we do now? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I guess in the last couple of decades,
psychological research has been going into, that's termed positive psychology,
not just getting out of mental illness, but getting into you can be, because it hasn't really,
it's fine that it's mostly coaches that are on the forefront of actually doing the work there so far.
Yeah, good. Yeah, and it's, I think the US is much further ahead than we are.
And my accent is American, but I've lived in Australia for the last 18 years just to let you
know. But yeah, I did. I was in America for my first 25 years. Right, so I'm not sure where Australia's
up to with coaching and kind of taking those steps forwards. I think here in the UK, it's taken us
quite a long time to accept counseling even, you know, about therapy side of things. So we are a
little further behind on coaching, life coaching and kind of being quite deliberate about how we
move forwards. So yeah, I think the US is definitely further ahead than we are in it being a thing even,
you know, here in the UK, when we talk about coaches, we think about, you know, a football coach,
but then somebody who's actually kind of doing life coaching. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Anita, I just had a
question I've been asking people. There was a question that was asked of me probably 15 years
ago or something by a co-worker. He said, we were just, we were in customer service and we were just
between customers. And she just said, if you could bring more of any one thing into the world,
what would it be? And that really struck me as a good way to think a little bit about your purpose
in life. So Anita, if you could bring more of any one thing into this world, what would it be?
I think for me, it's kind of got to be all around self-acceptance and self-worth. I think
as human beings, we've, I guess it's become more over the past sort of probably 100 years or so,
particularly as we get into possessions and material things and seeing what other people have,
that that thing of keeping up with the Joneses, we are so quick to not accept what we have or
who we are is good enough. I think there can be some societal conditioning in that. I think,
you know, how we're brought up, how our parents bring us up, feed into that so that we spend so
much of our lives trying to be better than we are trying to, you know, achieve more. And I know for
me, certainly this was kind of my earlier life, 100% is I kept believing that if I got that thing,
that would make me be happier. But actually, it never did. It never, nothing ever filled the
hole that was inside me because it wasn't accepting of myself as I was. And I think that's one of the
things that if we can, just as human beings, accept ourselves and kind of have that level of
self-worth in ourselves, that we are worthy of love and acceptance, exactly as we are, who we are
today, we are worthy already. If we can have that acceptance, that would make us feel so much more
content and not looking externally, you know, looking for that external validation is kind of,
I know for me, definitely looking for that external validation was exactly what drove me. But it
never fulfilled. And it never does because external thing can always be removed. Whereas if we have
our own internal validation, we accept ourselves for who we are. And that's not to say that we don't
ever want to make things be different, or we don't ever want to, you know, improve our lives in any
way. But if we deny who we are, if we don't accept who we are, then it doesn't matter what we achieve,
it will never feel good enough. So for me, yes, self acceptance, self worth, being in that space of
finding ways to accept yourself exactly as you are today, so that then you can move forwards and
feel good enough in everything that you do. Does that make sense? Does that kind of
Yeah.
That's the question, yeah.
No, it really does. So self acceptance, and then I guess moving, so that's, if you could bring
more of any one thing into the world, it would be self acceptance. So with that in mind,
what would you say is the core philosophy behind your coaching, and how does that translate into
tangible results for your clients?
So for me, and it very much is that around that kind of, you know, like I said before, that excuse me,
most people or so many of us are conditioned from childhood to kind of fit in, you know, go to school
and you've got to wear a uniform, you've got to conform, you've got to do what you're told to do,
which means that if you don't want to do that, if it doesn't feel right to you, we learn to adapt
ourselves to to fit in, you know, which means that if it doesn't feel right, that there's
something disingenuous in that for ourselves, for each other's. So for me, my kind of core
philosophy is all about, you know, allowing people to be exactly who they are, and kind of finding
that acceptance of themselves in wherever they are, kind of starting that, where they are today,
like I say, absolutely looking for, you know, looking at your goals and looking at where you
want to go. But it's a it's that analogy of, you know, kind of setting the sat-nav, isn't it?
You know, if we set the sat-nav to go somewhere, but we don't know where we're starting from,
actually, the sat-nav hasn't got a clue where to go. So by not accepting ourselves in this space
means that we can't really direct ourselves forwards, because we don't know where we're
starting from. So it is very much about allowing people to kind of take care of themselves, take
prioritise their own needs so that they are looking after themselves in a way that allows them to
feel that they're important enough to kind of take care of themselves. I don't have a succinct
little phrase that I probably could do with getting around the kind of the philosophy side of it,
for me, for my coaching. But it always comes back to that thing of helping people to kind of
love accept and accept themselves exactly as they are today, so that they can then move forwards
into the version of themselves that they would like to grow into.
When you were explaining that, I was thinking, if you were using a sat-nav and you were,
you had this destination in mind, you think of yourself as someone who can't drive,
but then you're not going to be able to. So you might have a goal of where you want to get to,
but you aren't the proficient person to drive the car to get there.
Yeah. Yeah. And again, I think that's exactly, that's very true that so many of us don't feel
that we are good enough to make those decisions. We struggle to make the decisions or to feel
confident in the choices that we make. Whereas actually we are exactly, you know, as we are the
person who is the most best informed. Unfortunately, we can't always tune in to what
our authentic self is saying. And that can be the difficult part, which I guess is probably the
work that I do with clients is helping people to properly tap into their authentic self so that
they can hear their own voice rather than all of that conditioned voice, that those external voices
that come in, you know, critical parents and society, you know, telling us what we should be doing,
actually being able to listen to yourself and listen to what you genuinely want for yourself
can really support you in having the belief that you can make the right choices to support
yourself to get to the places that you want to go to. So then can you tell me a success story
about a client who started off in that place, maybe where they didn't quite accept themselves?
Just tell me, I guess any success story about a client of yours where your coaching methods
made a big difference in where they started out and where they got to?
Yeah, absolutely. So there was a lady I was working with, we began working together towards the
end of last year. And at the point that she came to me, she was feeling really quite sort of lost
on fulfilled. Truthfully, life felt quite pointless without some kind of intervention
that there was a prospect there of her heading towards, you know, not wanting to live a life
anymore. She just felt it was completely pointless. There was no joy at all in her. And we started
working together and there was just some really basic stuff like she really didn't like the house
that she lived in, but she'd convinced herself that she had to stay there because she'd only been
there for two years. Now mortgage deal wasn't up in front of the year and so she didn't have a choice,
you know, there was no option for her, that she had a very challenging relationship with both her
parents. Specifically, her mum was more so. Mum had quite a lot of narcissistic tendencies,
which meant that she'd never really had the validation from her parents growing up. Work
wasn't great. I mean, she'd had quite a successful job in finance, but she wasn't particularly enjoying
the work that she was doing. So life all around felt quite sort of empty and shallow, quite brittle.
Friendships weren't going as she'd have liked them to be doing, but because she'd got herself
into a place of she wasn't really speaking with anybody, she wasn't communicating much.
She was so stuck in the beliefs that she can't do anything that she really struggled to kind of
begin to make any choices because obviously life was where it was. And so she felt she had no ability
to make good choices for herself going forwards. So as we were working together, we began, I mean,
even just questioning the belief that she had to stay in her house. And when she looked into it,
she went and got some information. Actually, it was feasible for her to sell her house and move
into a different house. The financial implication of that wasn't anything like as bad as she'd
kind of told herself. Something as simple as Christmas. So she was feeling that she had to
go and spend Christmas with her parents because she had nothing else planned. And that filled her
with dread, the thought of spending the whole of Christmas with her parents really filled her
with dread. So we looked at what she'd done historically and she'd previously gone away for
Christmas financially. That wasn't an option this year. So we looked at what other options there
were available to her. And again, it was just opening herself up to having Tracys being able
to look beyond the one thing that was stuck in front of her that she really didn't want to look
out that she really didn't want to do. And she was able to go and spend Christmas with a friend
and had the best Christmas ever. She had an amazing Christmas that was really lovely.
She felt very fulfilled and very kind of nerd space because she was in a space of love rather than
the fear was being in this space with her parents that was going to be very critical and
she would be on edge and it would be a really harsh experience. She actually had a lovely
experience with her friend that was just filled with love for her. And then even looking at the
friendship, she'd kind of got herself into the belief that her friends didn't care about her
anymore because they weren't contacting her as much as she'd have liked. And we kind of just
unpicked that a little bit and kind of looked at some of the beliefs that were going on for her,
you know, these limiting beliefs that she had going on and the belief that everybody should
message her and she didn't need to message anybody outwardly. So when she was able to actually message
her friends outwardly, actually they came back and she realised that she had been holding herself
back in all of that, that she was the one that was kind of putting those walls up against people
because she just wasn't able to look beyond what was immediately in front of her. When she was able
to reach out to some friends, actually like say, you know, she spent Christmas with one of her friends
and they were good, solid friendships, they were different, some of them were more in depth than
others. But when she'd originally come to me, she felt that actually she didn't really have any
worthwhile friendships. When she was able to look beyond that initial unhelpful thought,
she was able to see that she shed a lot of friends, but she'd closed herself off from them
because she wasn't in such a good space in her head, she kind of closed herself off from them. So
ultimately, she'd gone from that space of feeling that life was pointless, that there was no joy,
that almost she was just waiting to die. And you know, she wasn't an old woman, she was only in her
50s. She'd gone from that space to kind of everything, her whole life flipping her full 180.
You know, she was moving how she'd kind of reconnected with all her friends. She felt
fulfilled, she felt positive, she felt life was worth living again. And you know, to kind of see
that transformation is amazing. You know, such a beautiful thing to witness with clients.
Yeah, sounds like she had real blinders on and had real tunnel vision where she just
didn't see how anything be different as far as like where she was living or you know,
what was happening with her friends or whatever. And just through her conversations with you and
obviously work on her limiting beliefs and everything, she was able to see all these
other options that she had and choose something that she, choose a life that she liked a lot
better than the one that she was living. Yeah, definitely. And I think that's the thing is
those limiting beliefs, we would that they're sneaky little boogers, because we don't see them
all the time. And you know, that they're hidden from our own view a lot of the time. So actually
having an external person talking through some of this stuff can be so helpful to begin to help
you to see some of them. Because like I say, we just don't know that they're there. We don't know
her beliefs 100% around Christmas was she had to go and spend Christmas with her parents. But
she was the one that had imposed that nobody else had put that on her, but she couldn't see
anything different. Yeah. So yeah. What is your strategy for helping clients to overcome
that self doubt when they don't when they don't believe in themselves? I think it's really beginning
to kind of reflect on what's got them to that place that they don't believe that they can make
good choices. So what's got them to that self doubt? What's kind of where's the information
come from? And just beginning to challenge that even, is that true? Is it a truth or is it? Is
this again, is it a limiting belief by helping people to see what's currently hidden from them?
I know there's a gorgeous quote from Oprah Winfrey, and I'm going to butcher it, but it's
something like, a coach helps you to see the higher version of yourself that you can't see
yourself. It's something like that. And it is it's seen that helping you to see the things that
you're not able to see for yourself. And it's for, you know, a massive variety of reasons. It can be
like social condition. It can be just the life that you live has been very
conformative. So you just conform and that's what you do. And you know, it might be the work that
you do means that you have to be really quite conformative. That doesn't mean that as a human
being, you have to move away from anything that brings you joy or pleasure. And I think so often
people kind of do that, especially in adulthood, you know, we think it should all be so serious and
we take ourselves so seriously. So that self doubt then means that if it's something that's fun,
well, we shouldn't be doing it because we're grown up. So, you know, we're adults and we shouldn't
be doing those things. It's almost a little bit frivolous. But helping people to see actually,
the purpose of life isn't to endure it to the end. You know, actually, the purpose of life is to live
it, to enjoy it, you know, to have those moments of, you know, imagining being a seven year old again,
and the joy of rolling through a field of dandelions, you know, those kind of things,
you're really feeling some of that stuff. I think unfortunately, we get so much of that
knocked out of us when we start having life to deal with, you know, you've got bills, you've
got mortgage, you've got a job to do, you've got to be up on a Monday morning, that kind of stuff
that we struggle to connect in with those things. So helping people to reconnect again,
it comes back to that authentic self, you know, what does bring you joy in your life?
And so therefore, what can you do to kind of get rid of some of those limiting beliefs that stop you
saying you're worthy of those things, you know, helping you to challenge those doubts, to actually
go and do the things that you really enjoy that do fulfill you. So if someone listening has some
of those limiting beliefs, how would they go about helping themselves get rid of some of those limiting
beliefs? Well, one of the things I say so much is if a friend was telling you this thing, would you
agree with them or would you tell them actually, you know, it's okay for them to do that thing.
And I think that can be such an easy thing that we all have the ability to do that.
We all have the ability to kind of put this situation onto a friend. Would we tell them,
no, they can't go and do that thing? Or would we become, why can't you just go and do it,
you know, go and enjoy it? And that that is the simplest way. It's not always the the follow
through on that isn't always the straightforward. But even just beginning to challenge that belief.
Because again, so often we don't believe it's a limiting belief, we believe it's a fact.
So we can't even begin to challenge it. And that's the hardest part is beginning to challenge it.
So when we have a situation where we are telling ourselves we can't do something, it's beginning
like say transferring that over to a friend, if they were in that situation, what would we be
saying to them, so that we're able to begin to get a challenge in there. But we get the awareness
that this is us saying it rather than this being a natural factor, and we can't do something.
I do have a I'm going to have it stuck on my wall in front of me, sticking out that says,
I can't equals BS, because there is nothing that we can't in reality. You know, whenever you hear
yourself saying I check in with it, because the likelihood is that's you stopping yourself rather
than a genuine you can't. Yeah, I like that. That's also how I teach self compassion is,
there's a Jesus golden rule treat other people the way you want to be treated. But the platinum
rule is treat other people the way they want to be treated because my golden rule, I guess, or
whatever, for people to have self compassion is treat yourself the way you would treat your best
friend. So if your best friend was in this situation that you're in, would you be saying to them,
you're an idiot, why are you always doing things, why are you always messing things up like that?
Well, no, you would be speaking kindly and passionately to them. Yeah, we say that kind of
thing to ourselves all the time. But you'd never say that to a friend. Yeah, treat yourself the
same way you treat your best friend. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Excellent. All right. Well,
what's one piece of wisdom Anita that you find yourself consistently giving out to anyone who
will listen? One of the things that I think has been most empowering for me is acknowledging the
choice that I have in my life. And then always easy choices, you know, the choices can be, you know,
get up and go to work or don't and get no money. And then I've got no money to pay my bills. And
that sounds like a really blasé one. But it's recognising we have choice in pretty much every
action that we take on a daily basis. Quite often we feel stuck, we feel we've got to do stuff that
can feel really quite disempowering. We get stuck in that belief that I've got to do that thing.
But acknowledging we have a choice and being able to be really present in that choice helps us to
feel more empowered, helps us to feel a bit more in control of what's going on in a world where we
are in reality very out of control of a lot of stuff that goes on, all's we can control is our
own internal kind of experience of these things, feeling in control of some stuff that isn't comfortable,
you know, staying in a relationship because it's easier or choosing to leave a relationship. We
can make a choice in that because having choice, having the awareness of a choice helps us to,
even if we're staying in, I've got clients I've worked with, they stay in an abusive relationship
because that's what they, what feels most manageable for them in that moment. But acknowledging the
choice that they're doing it out of choice rather than they've got to do it, just helps them to
feel a bit more in control of a situation that actually feels quite out of control. So whenever
you're in a place where things are feeling out of control, things are feeling that you've got to do
something, just begin to acknowledge the choice. The opposite side of the choice might not be something
that you want to do, but you've got a choice to do that. So being able to acknowledge the choice can
really help you to feel more empowered, more kind of in control of what's going on in your life.
So notice that you have a choice. Good. We've got a few messages from listeners here. I'll just play
them and we'll see if we have a response to any of them. Yeah, sure. This one comes from Kat.
Good morning guys. I hope you guys are all doing well. When I hear people say I can't, I think it
comes from a place of fear. They say they can't because they don't see themselves. You have to
be able to see yourselves in that position or in that spot, whatever it is, but it's fear. It's
fear that stops people from doing the things that they want to do, but think they can't.
Yeah, do you have a response to that Anita? Yeah, I would probably agree with that that, you know, it is
most likely fear-based that I think as Kat said there, that you can't see yourself in that outcome
or it might even be that if you choose to do the thing, then you'll be going against other people's
wishes. So and that feels unsafe, which obviously again comes back to fear, but it's not a fear
to feel, but it's not feeling safe to achieve the outcome can feel really difficult. So, so yeah,
I'd agree that there is a lot of fear in that. And I think that's something that can be really
interesting is a huge believer of we act from fear or love or fear or faith. Yeah, that's exactly what
I was thinking. Fear or love, yeah. And it's kind of having that belief that, and this is very much,
you know, an inside job, a belief of yourself, you know, so can you have faith of a good outcome?
And again, I have lots of up all on my office at home, and I have one there that says, you know,
have faith in the best outcome rather than fear of the worst. And it is living in that space of
having faith that, you know, things can go well, things can be good for you. Yeah, excellent.
And then we've got two messages here from Sasha McFlash. We'll see what these are.
You sound like a BBC documentarian. What's really missing in that specific quote,
do unto others, for Matthew is what pre emanates it is the idea of sacrifice. It's like you're
going out of your way to you want to treat this guy like an asshole because he's treating you like
an asshole, but you're going out of your way for the higher will. And that's what I think the higher
meaning and the higher goal of the gets underwhelmed and underspoken.
Interesting. Yeah.
Yeah, not a lot of thoughts about. No. Excellent. Well, thank you, Anita. I've just
kind of finished up with two last little questions here. These two are really two. I've stolen these
from Mike Kaplan in his podcast, Broccoli and Ice Cream. And but he asks these at the end of his
podcast. And I love them. They're basically just two questions to make sure that we've
we've covered everything that we need to in this conversation. So if the answer to either of these
questions is no, perfectly fine. But if you've got something that we've missed here, then please
chime in with that as well. So the first one is there anything that you didn't get to say as much
as you wanted to because we went off on a tangent? No, I don't think there is. I think we've covered
a lot of what I wanted to say. Yeah. Excellent. And is there anything that I didn't even know to
bring up? Because obviously, you know yourself a lot better than I know you, Anita. Is there anything
that I didn't even know to bring up that you feel would be a glaring omission when it comes to a
survey of the life and work of Anita McKenna? Nothing specific for you to bring up. I think
one of the things that I always kind of refer to is that I am probably my greatest testimony.
You know, I've done the work that I now do with clients and I've gone through the process. And
I think that's something that so often is important for clients, specifically the work I do. It's so
important that the clients understand that I've been through not everything that they've been
through, of course not, but you know, my own experience is what's kind of driven me to do
the work that I do that, you know, I definitely have had a very discontented younger life.
I have done a lot of work on myself. I've invested heavily, you know, sort of financially and
time wise, energy wise in choosing to live the life that I do live now. And I think that can be
really important for people to know that I haven't just read a few books, done a certification,
and say I'm, you know, I'm some master of it or something. I'm not a guru in any way shape or form,
but I live what I teach, if that makes sense. And I think that can be really helpful for people to
understand that, you know, I've been through some really challenging times. And it's only because
of the work that I've done that I'm where I'm at. And I certainly wasn't born this way. I've worked
at it. So if I can do it, anybody can do it. Good. So is there anything else you wanted to share
about those challenging times that you've been through? No, I mean, I touched on it earlier that,
you know, 15 years ago, my life was catastrophically turned upside down. It was a very difficult time,
like I say, you know, had my daughter, her dad left, I got made redundant, I ended up surrendering my
home, had to move back to my hometown as a single parent living on benefits in a little flat,
feeling very sorry for myself. And it's funny because I had all of my material external validation
taken away from me. But actually, it was the most transformational thing that could have ever happened
to me. I am so grateful. And I know that sounds really weird, but I was so grateful that happened
because it allowed me to kind of reset myself. It allowed me to start again. And I believe,
personally, that the universe course corrected me. That I was going on the wrong path and the
universe said, right, you're not listening to the subtle hints. So I'm going to do something quite
dramatic for you. And, you know, I'm so much more fulfilled, I feel so much happier. I feel,
I love my life, you know, it's not perfect in any way, shape or form. But I love my life now.
And I love that I get to share that with other people, you know, that I'm very open on social
media that, you know, I share my highs and my lows, because I think it's really important.
Again, it is coming back to that authentic voice that we have that, you know, being really authentic
and sharing, being transparent with life isn't perfect. But I choose to live it in a way that
feels good for me. Excellent. Thank you very much, Anita. So the point of this podcast is
for anyone who wants to learn and listen and learn anything that they can on self-development,
hearing me chat with all different kinds of coaches and other people who are catalysts for
people to make change. But it's also for people who are ready for a coach that they, when they hear
that person, they say that I need Anita in my life to help me move forward. So for those listeners
today who are saying I need Anita to help me move forward, how do they find you? So I'm on all the
socials, Anita McKenna UK. So you will find me there. Anita McKenna UK. And that's A-N-I-T-A-M-C-K-E-N-A-U-K.
So no dots, no dashes. Fantastic. Thank you very much for coming on, Anita. And if anyone needs
to find me, you can find all my links, including links to every episode of this podcast at Jeremy
West.net. Thank you very much. And we'll talk to you again soon, Anita. Thank you. You take care now.