It is possible to be thankful every moment, every
day. It is possible to be thankful every moment,
every day. It takes practice and humility. It
takes vision and civility. Hi, and welcome to
Tell Me What Happened, the podcast that features
people from all walks of life talking about real
events from their childhood and how those events
impacted their lives. I'm your host, Jay Rehack.
And I love listening to stories from people's
childhoods, which also help me understand who
those people are. Tell Me What Happened is sponsored
by Sidelining Publishing, publishers of quality
books, including Susan Salador's children's book,
I've Got Peace in My Fingers, available worldwide
wherever quality books are sold. Tell Me What
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free and it's easy to use. That's LaughSaver
.com. Today I'm honored to have as my guest,
author and educator, Dr. Wilma Turner. Dr. Turner
is the author of Everyday Racism in America and
The Power of Forgiveness. Welcome, Dr. Turner.
I look forward to hearing your story. Thank you,
Jay. What I'm going to tell you is that I tell
all my guests, which is I'm going to do my best
not to interrupt you. So I'm going to turn off
my microphone and just listen to your story.
So if you're ready to take over, the microphone
is yours. Okay, thank you. Well my story starts,
I'm starting in 1962 when I was 16 years old.
And what happened is I helped to integrate this
all white high school in Charleston, Missouri.
We went to court. A group of parents and the
NAACP took the Charleston Board of Ed to court.
And the reason was because at that time, all
the black students had to go to the quote unquote
black high school and all the white students
went to the white high school. And even though
that was unconstitutional, I mean, based on Brown
versus the Board of Ed, 1954, I believe, it was
unconstitutional to segregate in the public schools.
So not only that, but in the black high school,
where I actually found three mentors, all the
teachers there were black. There were three teachers
there who had gone to Tuskegee Institute, which
is a HBCU, one of the historical black colleges.
And they saw something in me. They said to me,
you need to go to college. And I said to them,
my mother doesn't have any money to send me to
college. So they said, but there is a way to
do it and we will help you. However, All of the
things that you need are not here in this school.
For instance, in the Black High School, we only
had two years of English. Most colleges want
you to have four years of English. We only had
Algebra 1, for instance. We didn't have calculus
in the Black High School. We didn't have trade.
We didn't have chemistry. We had a library, but
there were maybe 100 old raggedy books in the
library. The thing is that it was not, even though
it was separate, it was was not equal. So I wanted
to go to the best high school. Not that I wanted
to go to school with white children, but to the
best high school. And so based on the court order,
they had to let 14 of us into that school because
those were the parents that had put that had
filed a suit. And in addition to that, there
were two different school districts at that time.
I lived in what was called Wyatt, Missouri. And
kids from Wyatt had to go to school in Charleston,
you know, small country towns. But anyway, it
ended up being 14 of us. And I remember the first
day of school, even though this is more than
a half century ago, which sounds like a long
time. But I remember that the first day of school,
some of the kids were outside when we were coming
in. And some of them decided they were going
to throw tomatoes at us. I guess that was the
way to let us know we don't want you here. We
don't need you here. This is our school. So I
think maybe that was the first time I started.
realized maybe this is what hate looks like because
they didn't know us. They just knew that we were
black, they were white, we were trying to come
to their school. So in addition to that, that
first day I remember that my first class was
a literature class and I was a junior by that
time because up until that time all the black
kids had to go to the black high school. And
so I went there for my freshman and sophomore
year. So by the time I went to Charleston High
School, I was a junior. And my first teacher,
she gave us seats, three or four of us were juniors.
And so, you know, when we were looking for our
seats, she said to sit there in the back of the
room because all of the seats had already been
assigned. And I was thinking to myself, we're
in the back of the room. And then she said, I've
never taught Negroes before. So Negroes is kind
of in between being called, you know, N -word
and being called Negro, which is what Black folks
were called back then. But things like that,
it's like people are deliberately using words
to hurt you and to let you know that you're not
welcome here. So once we left class, and you
have to walk down the hallway to get to your
next class. It was like Moses parting the Red
Sea, because all the white kids kind of went
on both sides of the hallway, you know, up against
the lockers to let the black kids come by. And,
you know, we, they called us the N -word. Everybody
knows what that means nowadays. They would take
black shoe polish and write on our lockers, go
home. you know we don't want you here and they
would find old pictures of old ugly I guess I
don't know maybe homeless black people and tape
them to our lockers so that when we got to school
already you know there's something there that
shows their hostility so it it occurred to me
that maybe they were thinking that black kids
were not smart, that we're all too dumb to go
to this white school. You know, we don't have
the academic ability. So even though some of
the kids that went there with me, I know, I remember
one girl, she fought somebody every day, because
when they called her a name, she'd punch them
in the mouth. But I had never been a fighter,
not that way anyway. I decided that my fight
would be academically. And I needed to show them
how smart I was and just how smart Black people
are in general. And so I decided to study, which
is what I did. And that first, it was October
when we got there. So at the end of that first
semester, I was on the honor roll. And I was,
you know, I'm so happy that they can see my name.
It seems to me I was at the... top of the honor
roll and I'm still gonna try to find that somewhere
because that was a long time ago. I know I specifically
was on the honor roll and I was so proud of myself
because I'm saying now you know I've shown them
look at that you know I'm on the honor roll.
In addition to that I decided I was going to
I've always loved to sing and so I persuaded
my best girlfriend to get into the glee club
with me. I wanted to be anywhere they did not
want me to be. So Betty and I got in the glee
club. Betty was a soprano. I'm an alto. So that
means that we got a chance to blacken up the
glee club because she's over there and I'm over
here. And then the next thing that happened was
I decided they had an oratory contest. They called
them declamatory contest back then. So what you
would do is learn something and get up on stage
and, you know, present it. So I did that. I was
really good, too, because everything I did I
tried extra hard. I remember I learned this monologue
called Gossiping Gertie. The thing is that Gertie,
and it's humorous, Gertie was talking to her
imaginary children, the whole thing was imaginary,
and while gossiping on the phone to a girlfriend.
And her children were getting into all kinds
of bad things, you know. So anyway, the audience,
I guess they forgot for a minute that I was black.
They were applauding and they enjoyed being entertained.
And I won second place. I was really good, though.
I should have won first place, but I guess they
said, you know, we can't really let her win first
place because this is one of the people who came
over here by court order and we didn't really
want her over here. So, you know, we've got to
kind of tone that down. And so I started to think
of myself as, you know, I can do this. Any of
the things that they say that I can't do, I really
can do. And so, and then I noticed that I used
to kind of, when we first got there, teachers
would not give you a break. I mean, if you forgot
to cross a T, that was a minus one. If you didn't
put a dot at the end of the, you know, the teachers
didn't want us there either. Didn't put anything
at the question mark, some mark at the end of
a sentence, that was a minus one. And so I started
to, even though I got good grades, and I noticed
that some, times you know somebody would try
to talk to me some of the white kids and I would
cover up my paper just because I don't want you
to see what I have on my paper because now you
know I'm smart so now you want to talk to me
but I don't want to talk to you. You know the
other thing I remember is that there was one
young boy I guess he must he was in high school
And he was the only person that ever said anything
nice to me the whole time I was at that school
for two years. He's the only one that I can remember.
And he used to smile sometimes, and he would
say hi, kind of under his breath. He probably
wanted to talk to me or to talk to us, but the
other kids wouldn't allow that, you know, what
they would call him back then. So even though
I went through that, I learned that I'm smart.
I'm just as smart as anybody else. If I apply
myself, and it doesn't matter what you say about
me, what matters is what I think about myself.
That's more important. And so from that point
on, I dealt with the racism part. But I knew
that because I had gone to church, from the time
I was a little bitty girl. I was about three
years old. Of course, I was three when my father
passed away, and so my mother raised me on her
own. But from the time I was a little girl, I
was at church. And I remember you're supposed
to love everybody. I never learned hate. I didn't
know what that was all about. And so even though
I fought back, And I learned to curse, too. I
don't know where I learned that, because my mother
never used foul language. I learned it somewhere,
because that was one of my defense mechanisms
when somebody would call me the N -word. I just
called them something as well. But anyway, when
it all came down to almost time for me to graduate,
one of the things that happened was that the
Charleston Board of Ed had to reorganize all
of the schools because of the court order. And
so my second year there, there were other black
kids in the school because everybody had to go
to the same school. They were made to reorganize
the whole school district. And so when I think
about what I went through and what those of us
who went through when we were the first ones
there, it was worth it just to, because now all
of the kids go to the same school. They have
a brand new school, reorganized school district,
and it has nothing to do with your race, has
to do with where you live in the city. But there's
only one high school, so all of the black kids,
white kids, everybody goes to the same school.
And so, you know, what we went through, it was
worth it just because we made it better for someone
else. And when I see, I see my name in the court
documents, which is another thing. I'm like,
oh, that's really me. This really did happen.
I didn't dream this whole thing. Because sometimes,
you know, because it was 50 years ago plus, I'm
like, do I remember that correctly? But I know
that I can go and look in the court documents
and see my name. And so I just, I thank God for
that experience. It has taught me and allowed
me to do something to help other people. So that's
my story, Jay. Thank you doctor for that very
powerful, personal, formative story. I'm embarrassed
as human being that there ever was such a thing
and still is such a thing as segregation and
hatred based on really no defendable anything.
Yeah, and it's no accident. I believe we are
all who we should be, you know, and that God
has a purpose for everybody's life. So that was
just one of my purposes. Yes. Well, you seem
to have come out of it stronger and wiser, but
could you just tell me now, you know, it's 50
years, but in those intervening 50 years since
then, what has been the impact of that childhood
experience, essentially integrating that school
with the 13 other people? So what is the impact,
would you say, of that? particular moment, that
particular time, that particular year. Can you
just give me a sense of what happened in your
life over the last 50 years that would sort of
show us how that moment impacted you? Sure. Well,
you know, after graduating from high school and
those teachers that helped me to get into Tuskegee
College, I went there on what they called, it
was a program for you know poor students and
you could go to school for five years you work
your whole way through and that's how I got to
college and once I got to college you know it
was in the 60s so the whole civil rights thing
was was really up and running by then and so
I got involved in the protest the civil rights
the demonstrations that whole thing because I
guess I was set up for that so to speak because
now I could do something. Actually, I could march
and I can protest and I can do all of those things
to let people know that these are my civil rights.
And so that's how I got involved in the civil
rights protest. And I remember my mother was
really scared. She thought that I would probably
go to jail or maybe they would turn the dogs
on me and all that stuff that she saw on television.
And, you know, because I'm an only child, at
least I was back then. She was afraid and I was
going no matter what she said, you know, because
I felt it was something I needed to do. If they
turn the dogs on me, let it be. If they spit
on my face, whatever they wanted to do, I was
determined that this is where I needed to be
and I needed to let people know these are my
rights and I'm going to fight for them. And then
so after graduating from college, I became a
teacher. And it was interesting, though, that
all of the kinds of things that I used to think
about myself, well, I'm not really as good as
these other people. That's why they don't want
me here. I didn't want my students to think that.
And so I made it my goal. And all of my students,
I worked in the inner city my whole teaching
life. All of my students were black, lived in
inner city most of them. I wanted to make sure
that they knew that they were and their ancestors
were kings and queens in Africa and that they
were smart and brilliant and creative and they
could do anything they wanted to do if they put
their minds to it. And so I felt it was my responsibility
to teach these kids and to let them know that
you can do anything that you want to do. And
so I taught them some of the freedom songs that
I learned when I was marching. I taught them
about those civil rights demonstrations. And
actually one time we had a sit -in, you know,
with the principal's permission, because I didn't
want to disrupt the school. But we sat in in
front of the office. at school to protest. We
made signs so that they would get the whole thing
about your civil rights and what I had gone through.
And we were protesting the school lunches, which
really should have been protested. We were protesting,
you know, the fact that recess was too short.
But anyway, it was a good thing. And even now,
I have one or two... former students that still
keep up with me after all of these years. I know
where they are, they text me, they call me, and
they say thank you for what you did for us, because
now they are contributing members of society.
And I did not want to teach them hatred. For
one thing, my faith would not allow me to hate
anybody, no matter what you did to me. I learned
that if I wanted to be forgiven, if I wanted
God to forgive me for some of the things I've
done that I should not have done, then I needed
to be able to forgive other people. And I also
learned that, you know, forgiveness is something
you hold within yourself. It bothers you. It
doesn't bother the other person. And so that's
one of the things that I wanted to make sure
that my students knew, not to hold you know,
all of the kinds of things that I was telling
them that happened, not to hold that against,
you know, the people that were doing it, but
to free themselves by the power of forgiveness.
And, you know, that saying that unforgiveness
is like drinking poison and expecting the other
person to die. And I really do believe that.
And so now, I mean, I feel that all the things
that happened to me were a part of God's plan.
And what's even funnier than that, Jay, is when
I did my dissertation, I had five white men on
my dissertation committee, and I thought it was
funny. I said, God, you really do have a sense
of humor, right? So, but, I mean, each and every
one of them were just... wonderful. They did
everything they could to help me to do what I
wanted to do, which was my book is actually my
dissertation, Everyday Racism in America came
from my dissertation. So that's my story. Well,
thank you for that doctor. I really appreciate
it. I appreciate all that you have tried to do
and have done as a consequence of some of the
early suffering that you've experienced. And
again, I just feel terrible as a human being
that any other human being had to go through.
Well, you shouldn't though, Jay. You didn't do
anything. Nah, but you know, I'm part of the
human experience. You're part of that group of
people that they're talking about nowadays. Yeah.
We're all in it together. And when I see suffering
on the outside of me, but as... It's selective
or whatever the right word is that I say to myself
well as an individual though That's but but you
know you're I think now as an individual You
do what you can do to correct what you see when
you see something going on Do something like
John Lewis said sometimes you have to make some
good trouble If you see something that's happening
and it's not right, say something, do something.
That's what you can do. You can't do anything
about what happened in the past. Well, thank
you, doctor, for all the good trouble you have
caused over time and that you're continuing to
do. I love the idea of forgiveness as a central
theme to your work also. I feel gratified that
you have it in your heart to forgive. Oh, yeah,
so thank you. Thank you for allowing me to do
this All right, that's our show like to thank
dr. Turner for that deeply personal painful childhood
story Also like to thank our sponsors side lining
publishing publishers of quality books including
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That's LaughSaver .com. Now we're going to end
this show, as we often do, with Susan Salador's
classic, Every Moment, Every Day. Until next
time, this is Jay Rehaq, asking you all to stay
safe out there, and try not to hurt anybody.
It is possible to be thankful every moment, every
day. It takes practice and humility. It takes
vision and civility. It takes beauty and the
wisdom to see it everywhere. It takes practice
and humility. It takes vision and civility. It
is possible to be thankful every moment, every
day. It is possible to be thankful every moment,
every day.